In this engaging episode of the Bitter to Better podcast, I welcome back my friend and family constellations facilitator, Mattie Clark, for an informal yet insightful conversation. We dive into the intricacies of dating and relationships, focusing on the importance of having the exclusivity conversation. Mattie shares updates on her Rerooted Rebels program, which aims to integrate family constellations into a 90-day journey. We discuss the challenges and societal pressures women face when navigating romantic relationships. Our dialogue explores the necessity of explicit agreements in relationships to build trust and avoid the pitfalls of premature exclusivity.
We also delve into the power dynamics at play in dating, particularly how women often feel disempowered and the importance of reclaiming that power through intentional conversations and decisions. Mattie and I reflect on personal experiences and societal influences that shape our understanding of commitment and exclusivity. We touch on the generational shifts in dating norms and the role of playfulness in empowering women to navigate romantic interactions more effectively. This episode is a thoughtful exploration of how to approach dating with clarity and confidence, ensuring that both partners are on the same page.
Mattie Clark (she/they) is a family and systemic constellations facilitator, writer, and educator. She brings soul-centric insight to conversations on grief, belonging, and transformation, working with individuals, couples, and groups. Find her @mattiemclark and at mattieclark.com.
[00:00:04]
Tracie Pinnock:
Okay. Alright. Welcome back to the Bitter to Better podcast. We have again my friend, Maddie Clark, who if you listened a few episodes ago, you would have heard her, talking about family constellations as she is a family constellations facilitator. And when we were talking, we kind of threw out this idea of having some just casual informal conversations around various topics related to or adjacent to dating, breakups, life management, things like that, relationships, all of that. And so we thought, you know, maybe periodically, we'll have Maddie pop in, and her and I will just talk and discuss. So we have kind of a loose format here where, I have a a general topic in mind that was spurred from our last conversation. We're kinda throwing it out there, but it can go off into various other areas.
And, one of the things is that with Maddie being a family constellations facilitator, I did want her to be able to share about what she's up to right now. And so I'll kinda just pass it over to you, Maddie, a little bit, and then we'll get into conversation.
[00:01:14] Mattie Clark:
Awesome. So glad to be back. I'm very excited about this conversation for today. And, yeah, just an an update on my end that last time we spoke, I was, I had just launched my first cohort for a ninety day group called Rerouted Rebels. And so it it does a lot of constellations. And my idea was that usually constellations are, like, these big one off events, and then it can be challenging to hold the energy that's been cleared and released and integrated. So instead of, like, one big one that's like, oh my goodness, It's like a bunch of microcosmic constellations.
And so it's going well, and I'm gonna start another cohort in October. So that's the update there.
[00:02:08] Tracie Pinnock:
Awesome. And I know we were chatting a little bit before. And so you said you're starting another cohort in October. How long do does the, program run?
[00:02:18] Mattie Clark:
Three months. Yep. Yep. So and it's almost every week. Yeah. And in fact, for this term, so that it ends by the holidays, I think it will be almost every week, yeah, from the October until December.
[00:02:37] Tracie Pinnock:
Got it. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. We're both kind of, on similar trajectories when it comes to this right now of launching things. Because as you were just what I just thought about you mentioned trying to get the next cohort finished before the holidays. I was thinking about how I just very informally on my Instagram yesterday talked about or no. Sorry. This morning. On my Instagram stories this morning, talked about, launching finally launching the date better program in January, but how I'm kind of working backwards. So if if my goal is for it to start in January, then I need to like, what do I need to get in place between now and then? And so, yes, being in that realm of, like, launching these and yours, like you said, is over a period of about, I guess, about ten to twelve weeks.
Yep. Mine will be, like, eight weeks. So just kind of being in the space of having goals to to have things happen, but then, you know, having to go backwards in putting in the work. But, awesome. So, yeah, I mean, we'll love to hear more and or to continue to hear about, you know, the process and how it's all going. So glad to have you back. The topic that I kinda threw out after the last time we spoke was this idea. And I honestly don't remember how it came up, but I remember sending you an email and saying, maybe we can, you know, chat about this, which is, you know what? It might have come up because we, at some point, I think, spoke about agreements, like social contracts, agreements, and relationships. Right?
Which brings me to think about what I call the exclusivity conversation, which is something that, people have listened to the podcast and stuff I've mentioned at times. I don't know if I've done I cannot remember. I have to go back and look. I don't know if I've done an actual episode specifically on this, but the the exclusivity conversation is one that I say needs to happen between going from casually dating someone to deciding to that you want to exclusively date them, which is to say when you're casually dating them, it means that you were you, you were dating other people as well or you had the option to date other people and go out on dates with other people and all of that. But then you identify maybe there's someone who you do want to focus your time and energy on. So you would then like to date them exclusively, which is still a step before a committed relationship.
But the thing here is is that a lot of people get what I call exclusive in their heads or prematurely exclusive with someone because they've decided, oh, yeah. I'm I'm happy to just date this person, but they have not had any conversations or had any or or even if they've had attempted conversations, they've gotten no confirmation from the other person that that's what they want to do and that both people's idea of what that means is the same. And so I say you need to have an exclusivity conversation. But I tend to get this is one of the things that I get the most pushback on when I'm working with people and talking with women in particular around dating. And I just think it's an interesting thing and a a helpful conversation to have, like, thoughts on why people push back, what, you know, what are our concerns, what all of that good stuff.
And then, like, the results and repercussions of having and not having these conversations and how this all the trickle down effect. So, yeah, I just thought it's it's just interesting discourse, because it is one of the areas that I do think is one of the most challenging when I'm when I'm working with women. So I don't know. Just figured we'd share thoughts. Do you have any general ideas about this,
[00:06:23] Mattie Clark:
this idea? Yeah. I mean, what what comes up from a Family Constellutions perspective is that explicit agreements are required for a strong bond. And the conversation or agreement around exclusivity is really about giving one another to each other fully. And so when you give fully and you agree to do that, you have a strong bond where you can bear life together, either literally, like, bearing children or just bearing life, like, in a sense of resilience.
[00:07:09] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah.
[00:07:11] Mattie Clark:
The other thing that comes up is balance. It's like there's societal stuff from, you know, patriarchy and all sorts of other stuff about, like, what women bring and what men bring. And so when there's fogginess or confusion around this agreement, there's often some kind of imbalance. And so it's, you know, if there's desperation for the commitment on the part of the woman or extreme avoidance on the part of the man, there's that probably speaks to some kind of imbalance, some kind of imbalance of give and take. Yeah.
[00:07:48] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. Yeah. And and, I mean, that's a really good point, this idea of imbalance. Right? Because well and then also what you said about being able to have this explicit agreement also helps people to kind of bear life together. Right? Because what comes to mind for me in that is the idea of trust. Right? Like, in order to do life together, do things together, have what we would call a healthy relationship, you know, all would all would agree that trust is a foundational part. And so having some sort of explicit agreement about what the guidelines are, the boundaries are, what each person needs, you know, what they want and don't want. Right? Builds trust so that you can feel like you can fully engage with someone, so be vulnerable when you need to be, you know, share when you need to share, support, all of those things. Right? And so it's kind of like and so then when you bring up the imbalance piece, it's like, yeah. If we can't have that conversation or if we have that conversation and one party is noncommittal like, is not upfront, honest, can't say yes or no, then we already have also I think a bit of a foundational trust issue. Right? Because you you don't exactly know. And people will continue to push forward still without that oftentimes. Like, I just really like the person. Right? And so we're just gonna go with it. But, like, there's a foundational, like, trust issue there then when you can't get two people to, have a conversation, one, and two, just be really upfront and honest about it. So, like, it may not be that both people say, yes. We wanna be exclusive. But, ideally, what you want and what you need is for both people to be very clear about what they're up for and what they're not up for. You know? Yep.
Absolutely. So yeah. It yeah. It's just one of the things that and then in hindsight in the long like, the long game, like, I tell like, when I talk with women, I'm like, most of us have been on the other end of not having this conversation. Because oftentimes I mean, especially early in early in your early dating life. So, like, if someone's in their twenties or things like that, these conversations oftentimes don't happen because it's a very casual, let's not put a label on it, let's Netflix and chill chill and fall into or slide into some sort of situationship thing. And there is a time and place for all of that. And I think your twenties is it. It's like figuring that all out, letting it get messy, saying, alright. That's what I don't wanna do again. Okay. That's all of that.
Right? So most of us have been on the other end of this probably multiple times and get and have felt some of those repercussions where you're still like, you're now in some way entangled or committed with someone, whether it's one-sided or both sided, but you're still also trying to gather an understanding of what
[00:10:47] Mattie Clark:
of how you guys are supposed to function. It's exhausting and anxiety provoking, I think. But Yeah. And crazy making. And this is another part that we were gonna talk about is, like, is, like, kind of this internal confusion, lack of clarity, like, crazy making, and then that also being part of what prevents oftentimes a woman from initiating that that conversation. Right?
[00:11:18] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I I don't want him to think I'm too much. I don't want him to think I'm crazy. No. I can't possibly bring that conversation up. And so and so, yeah, a lot of my work is on helping women figure out how to have that conversation. But, honestly, before figuring out how to have it, really dialing in with why you would want to have it. So what I mean is right? Because there's a lot at stake. There's a lot at stake, especially when you're at a certain point in life and you you have certain expectations or goals for your life, right, and for your future. There is a lot at stake for not having this conversation. So, like, really, like, tuning in with yourself around, like, okay.
Well, why like, if I'm at a point of even con of wanting to or thinking I want to be exclusive with this person, but yet I'm hesitant on having the conversation, let's start with, yeah, what is making me want to go from casually dating this person to exclusively dating them? Like, what is helping me, like, decide I want to to attempt to commit to this, right, or to focus on just them and dating? Because maybe it feels good surface wise, but when you really dial it down, if you're not willing to have the conversation, do you have enough behind your decision or your thoughts of wanting to date them exclusively? Maybe you keep casually dating some other people because there is there can be so much risk in deciding that you want to behave in a more, exclusive manner with someone without having those reassurances that they also want to do the same thing and in the same ways as you. That that part too. That part.
[00:13:06] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Yeah. That part. That part. Yeah. I'm just so relieved to be 39 and not 22 right now in this Yeah.
[00:13:22] Tracie Pinnock:
It's rough. It's rough Yeah. Out there. And, actually, something's come to mind of a fairly recent conversation that I had with a 20 year old, especially when we were talking about trying to have direct, honest conversations with people. It's particularly rough in, like, the Gen z set and stuff like that because we know that social skills have taken a bit of a hit generationally there for various understandable reasons. And so the idea like, the fear that arise like, I have heard about arising in, like, that generation around talking to someone else who you are romantically interested in and being, like, genuine and, like, you know, a bit vulnerable, it's like it's it's actually kind of massive. Right? And we all naturally, as humans, have, you know, a concern about being rejected or any of that. That is very normal and appropriate.
And, also, that actually comes with the territory of deciding to engage with other humans. Like, I tell people, you can't you don't get to avoid the discomfort of that if you're going to choose to be social in any way, friendships, romantic, whatever. Right? It it's it's yeah. Comes with it. Right? So how do we navigate it? But yeah. So, like, definitely, like, the younger set, like, even trying to, like, have these conversations, I think, is an added layer, which I will say that, like, I do a lot of my work on focusing with women who are mid thirties and beyond.
Again, often, many of them have children, stuff like that. So back to this idea of the stakes. Right? It's like, alright. But you're in a you are in this place in life now. So it's you you don't quite have as much of the luxury of a 20 year old to not have these conversations with somebody who you are choosing to give your time and energy to in this more focused way. Yeah. I and I think about, like, I I'm kinda thinking about, like, in my own life, maybe repercussions of having been in exclusive situations, which quite frankly, I think just immediately jumped to, like, a committed relationship type of thing, but before having this exclusivity conversation in any real way. And it again, it was like I said, it's crazy making. It was anxiety provoking, to just exist in these relationships where I realized that we committed in ways where, like, we moved in together or we had kids together or, you know, we, you know, introduce each other to our families. Any of these different things. Right? But also hadn't, like, clarified certain other aspects of the relationship.
So there becomes this this, yeah, this real tug of war.
[00:16:22] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Yeah. Me too on the, like, kind of, like, oddity of, like, making all of these steps, like, towards commitment seemingly, but all implicit, not explicit. And just, like, shocking ways of, like like, a partner demonstrating commitment implicitly. So me, like, kind of naively assuming, well, if he's doing or saying these things, he must be all in. Right. But all evasive of the actual explicit agreement around where men frankly do hold their power in current society. Like, the commitment piece is kinda their their source of power.
[00:17:09] Tracie Pinnock:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It and back to the sense of, like, trust. So it's almost like you kind of end up committing with a certain amount of mistrust or uncertainty. What I'm saying is, like, you were saying, like, someone doing certain things that might trigger for you, oh, they must be all in because they're doing x y and z. But they're not being that explicit conversation and agreement, which almost leave this always leaves this air of a way out where someone's like, I never said, but I never said, but I never said that. Right? And it can go both ways, you know, the man, woman, whoever. But, like, that. Right? Again, how can I trust if it's like having you know, again, we talk about social contract, but it's like having a legal contract and you never signed the line? Like, you read the agreement. I never signed that, though. I never but you read the agreement. No. I never signed signed it. I never signed it. Right? It's it's that, which doesn't make you feel good and and that doesn't help you know how to proceed or navigate, you know, in a in a situation.
[00:18:13] Mattie Clark:
So Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking about some of the examples and, like, the ways to like, the complicated, wild, complex. I'm gonna call it crazy because that's that's reversing the whole, like, you know, women are crazy thing. Right. The crazy ways of evading that. Like, had a partner be like, please come move across the ocean to a different country for me and get a job here, but didn't really have the exclusivity conversation. Right. Right. Extreme and, like, another one the same as what you're saying, like, oh, yes. Let's do meet the parents. I love you. Okay. Well, we're meeting the parents and saying I love you, but we're not talking about exclusivity.
It's just wild. And then there's another one I'm thinking of of, like like, he wanted to start off, like, all exclusive, a 100% all in in the beginning. Mhmm. And I was like, well, no. Not yet. And then once I was ready for that, then, like, you know, which is another classic thing where it's like, oh, no. Now he's gonna still hold the power there. Anyway, it's just yeah. Yeah. I like I like the feeling I'm having right now. I was like, no. They're the crazy ones. Like,
[00:19:34] Tracie Pinnock:
actually, I mean but to your point of reversing that, right, rather than as, like, a woman feeling like, oh, I'm crazy for bringing this up, It's like, no. It's it's crazy to, like, exclusively focus on someone without some reassurances. That is wild, actually. Yeah. And Yeah. Is actually illogical. That part does not make sense. Right? But how we feel about how we'll be viewed or how we're looked at societally by that person, all of these things, that's, like, oftentimes a driving force for not having the conversation, but it's actually totally illogical not to have the conversation. Right?
And to that point of, like, I guess this is something that I also try to speak on with women around, I don't wanna seem crazy. And it's like asking, well, what would make you seem, like, too much or crazy by having this conversation? Meaning, the timing of it. Like, yes. You do wanna do some assessment. Right? I'm like, yeah. Am I trying to have this exclusivity conversation after I don't have two dates with the person, or have we been dating, getting to know each other, and and having conversation? And so it actually is reasonable. You know what I mean? Like, really asking ourselves what about this from a logical perspective is, inappropriate or wild or crazy, and really just checking that so that you don't allow someone to kind of, like, flip it around or, you know, do any of that. Because, again, it's illogical to say, I'm gonna focus my time and energy just on you in the, you know, dating realm or the romantic realm without any assurances. Right?
That doesn't make sense, but we do it all the time.
[00:21:22] Mattie Clark:
Do it all the time. We do it all the time because we gotta we gotta be cool girls. We gotta just, like, be cool. And you hit your thirties, and you're like, well, I'm gonna be a real girl now. Your estrogen's going down, and the realness is going up.
[00:21:38] Tracie Pinnock:
That part. I do not have the time or patience or energy. And if I'm going to this part too. Right? I think that your time most people just have to view their time as more valuable the older they get for multiple reasons. Right? And so if I'm going to give you this like, my time is a currency. Like, it is if if I'm giving this to you, I would like, how upset would I be to just feel like I wasted it because I just went in without any, again, re like, any agreements and without any real understandings about it. Right? Like, yeah, my my time was a lot cheaper when I was younger. It's true. It is way more pricey, way more pricey now. So come on. Like, you gotta give me something here.
[00:22:25] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. And, I mean, until about yesterday, women were property in marriage and did not have agency. So, yeah, we're still catching up Yeah. With the notion of our value and worth. Mhmm. And the systems that are have been impacting us for millennium. I mean
[00:22:52] Tracie Pinnock:
Yep. Yeah. It's true. It is very, very true. And I yeah. And because of, you know, of reasons like that, like, men, I think, yeah, they have a more they have a a a greater idea of of the value of their time and energy, I think, than a lot of women do, where it's like, well, you know, I have this to do or that to do. So and I don't know. Maybe that is part of what goes into, you know, some guys not wanting to establish that exclusivity because I mean, it it's valuable. I I I don't know that I want it. I want the benefits of moving exclusively with someone, but I don't know that I want the, you know, liability of it or that right? And and I don't know. Right? But but that is a very good point societally in terms of, generally speaking, how women are talked to and told to value their time and and energy versus men. It is it is different.
[00:23:51] Mattie Clark:
It is. It is. Yeah. Women are valued for who they're being and men for what they're doing, and so that part plays in massively.
[00:24:04] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. Yeah. It definitely creates that imbalance in the dating world. And like you mentioned, guys' power is in the commitment piece. Yeah. So
[00:24:16] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. Here we are. Here we
[00:24:21] Tracie Pinnock:
are. So yeah. I think that, I don't know. I'm I'm glad we we were able to flesh this out a bit because, again, when I think about, like, working with women, it's one of my, like, biggest pushes. I and and one of the biggest challenges I feel that I am trying to help work women through is, like, why you don't wanna just slide into commitments anymore like you did in the past, like we all did in the past. And all had re like, luxury too. And like I said, I'm like, there's a time and place for, like, letting all the mess happen so that you can clean it up and, like, establish certain things. Right? That there's that that is not objectively a problem.
It's about when you start really form forming ideas of how you want your life to be in in the future and all that, then it puts you in a place to have to make some more deliberate intentional choices. And that's the things you say yes to and no to and all of that stuff. You know, we get into, like, vetting dating partners out and stuff like that. But so having, like, conversations where, like, again, valuable. Like, think of anything else that you consider to be valuable. You don't just hand it over to somebody. You're like, listen. We need to have some some understandings. Right? And same thing. Same thing. So I don't know. Maybe it's mhmm.
[00:25:37] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. I was just gonna say that it's almost like there's this societal trans, and it's just like, oh, women, when we're younger, our value is just all in our youth. So it's like, okay. Let's just go out there, use that, enjoy life by, you know, attracting through our youth. And then that we start to realize that there's some cheapness to that, and then we start to actually dig into our real value and worth that's beyond that, and it just alters things. And it's it's also biochemical too, right, in the sense that we lose half our brain cells in puberty, so we're less choosy about partners, don't get them back till our mid twenties. And then I feel like there's, like, a decade of, like, repair and, like, coming out of the trans.
Then there's also the trances of, like, ancestral entanglements and patterns and generational stuff around fidelity and agreements and secrets. So, yeah, like you said, you, like, just go all in, do the best you can, and then you have to, like, disentangle from all of the stuff you got,
[00:26:53] Tracie Pinnock:
like, that you that you learn from your experience. Right. Right. Exactly that. The the learning from from the message, from the experience, from the highs, the lows, all of it.
[00:27:04] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Wild. And I'm also just I think I talked about this last time, but just this age that we're at from an astrological standpoint of the millennials are the Pluto and Scorpio generation. And since Pluto went into Aquarius, it means that Pluto is opposing boomers and squaring millennials. So it's kind of like an end of peak power for boomers and a beginning of peak power for millennials. And then Pluto and Scorpio is about power dynamics. So we're kinda here to really resolve, reconcile these hidden power dynamics that are happening. So
[00:27:50] Tracie Pinnock:
here we are. Yep. Here we are. Here we are. I love it. And I'm always here for the astrological perspective of things, so please always bring that. It helps, you know, get get this from all angles. I think I I like the, the in summary, the the reckoning with, like, power dynamics. That's where we are. We are we are shifting. I mean, one of the things that, like, I, just recently and just kind of some rebranding stuff, I've I'm, like, really, putting out the idea that I am helping women date from a more empowered place, more effective, and more enjoyable. Like, the three e's, empowered. Like, that's the, like, the biggest one for me because I do think there's a lot of disempowerment in dating.
I think for people in general and and then for women in particular, we're just give give away too much of that power and feel like we don't have it, because I think what it gets focused on a lot is what I is like, you know, how men behave and if they do this. And it's like that the part that's very true that none of us have control over another person's behavior. And I think acknowledging that makes people feel powerless. But I'm like, you absolutely have control over not just your behavior, but what you entertain, allow, tolerate. Right? So back to this idea of, like, vetting out and, you know, being willing to have bring up exclusivity with someone who you decided or think you may want to just exclusively date. Again, I'm not saying jump to commitment, but just like, hey. Let's just go out together and not, you know, entertain going out with other people, all of that. Right? But having that conversation and someone not responding in a way that's helpful for you is so important for you to, like, vet them out.
And so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:40] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. And I think about, you know, this this conversation for me on a personal level, it's like one of my greatest challenges has been overcoming self doubt and self betrayal. And so this, like, kind of coming out on the other side of a, like, at least decades long kind of excavation of self doubt and self betrayal is just yeah. There's just there's just so much in it, and it's really, I think, so much in society sets women up in dating to betray and doubt their basic wants and needs.
[00:30:31] Tracie Pinnock:
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So there's there's a lot of intentional overcoming of that as you're saying. Yeah.
[00:30:38] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Yeah. That. Yeah. There's and there's just yeah. One other thing about what you were saying before I forget how you put it, but about, like, when you from a family constellations perspective, we would say, like, when you say yes to life. Because you had said something like, if you're gonna go out there and you're gonna be in relationships, you're gonna be in a bit of a learning experience. Like, you could just say no. I'm not gonna do all of that because it hurts and it's complicated. But in family constellations, you would say, yeah. But then you're saying no to life. Like, you're saying no to the complexity and all the things, but it's like that's saying no to life.
Yeah. So I think part of this conversation is, like, skills and
[00:31:31] Tracie Pinnock:
navigation around saying yes to life and all that entails. Right. Yep. What comes with it. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking to so yes. It's like you don't get to avoid the discomfort, right, of Yeah. Like you said, engaging with life, saying yes to life. It is absolutely gonna come with some bumps and bruises. But the alternative is to say no to life and, you know, deal with the repercussions of that, which oftentimes are are what we don't want. Right? Whether it's stagnation, boredom, isolation, loneliness, you you name it. And so, yeah, we have to, like, get out there and engage.
And it comes with, again, not being able to it it comes with having to interact with all different, types of people and therefore different experiences and behaviors and behaviors that we can't ultimately control if it's somebody else. But then it it makes us have to be particularly, responsible for ourselves. Right? Because there's a lot of, like, giving again, giving away our power. Oh, this person did this thing to me. And, obviously, depending on what we're talking about, but, like, especially when it comes to dating, like, did you have to stay? Because I'm talking about dating someone. I'm talking about meeting someone, you know, here, they are going on dates with them, deciding to text them, call them, whatever, go out. Like, do you have to keep showing up to that? Or, you know, are you allowing yourself to be put through these things for various reasons? There's a lot there's it could be a long list of reasons why I will put up with it. But, like, if you stop and ask yourself, like, yes. It's frustrating that this person treated you this way, but you do you have to actually put up with it?
That's a big one. It's a big one.
[00:33:12] Mattie Clark:
So Yeah. There's so much in that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:16] Tracie Pinnock:
I know. I'm I'm like, oh, maybe Percoli. I'm gonna literally write it down. For another conversation of, like, the things we put up with.
[00:33:25] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. And, like, why we do and from a constellation's perspective, like, different types of entanglements that these desperate desires to stay in something that doesn't serve us and doesn't feel generative. Yeah. There's a laundry list there.
[00:33:48] Tracie Pinnock:
I think, what I'm jotting down is how and why we give away our power. Right? I'm mentioning entanglements. Yeah, the ways in which it becomes a very you know, from a psychology perspective, we'd say, like, an external locus of control. Like, all these things are happening to me. And it's not that things are not happening to you, but it is also that you're remain you're staying at the party. Maybe it's time to go. Maybe it's time to leave the party. Right? So or not let certain people into the party. That too. All of these things. All of these things. Yes. Yes. I like that one. Yeah. Took me a long time to get to that latter one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My party became, way more exclusive over time. Let's say that way. They went from frat party rager, solo cup to martini glasses, fine crystal. We we can't not everyone can use the fine crystal. So that type of deal. Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:34:41] Mattie Clark:
So good. So good. Yeah. Yeah. You've had quite a journey. It's been so awesome being your friend and hearing about the transformation and yeah. Awesome.
[00:34:52] Tracie Pinnock:
It's been a thing. But, yeah, on that note, do you have any other thoughts, anything that you felt like you should throw in here, or, are we good to go and kind of can percolate on, you know, this this other topic for next time?
[00:35:07] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. I think the only other thing that's bubbling up is, like, maybe, like, my greatest tool for navigating dating differently has been playfulness.
[00:35:21] Tracie Pinnock:
Mhmm. And
[00:35:22] Mattie Clark:
and, like, the courage to to be playful with men. And, like, you know, I think there was, like, terror, like, litter like, really strong fear around kind of, like, mocking men or making fun of their crazy power things. And then when I started calling it out with playfulness, like, not, like, I hate you. You're a bad person. But just, like, oh, I see what you're doing here. Okay. Oh, okay. Or or, like, doubling down and, like, taking the power back by being like, okay. So you're gonna you're acting a little flaky here. Okay. You know, just like Mhmm. Yeah. I think just as a sort of, like, yeah, tool for navigating it, like, playfulness, levity, and not giving your depth Yes. Away Mhmm. Mhmm. Too quickly.
[00:36:17] Tracie Pinnock:
Jotting. Jotting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's Okay. Alright. Yes. I like this. I'll be sending an email immediately after this because that's gonna restore the ideas so that we can pick them up next time. But I I yeah. I'm I'm liking this back just like that final empowerment, empowered dating. You became more empowered in your romantic interactions and dating through playfulness.
[00:36:43] Mattie Clark:
You used playfulness as part of, yeah, the empowerment piece, which is which is awesome. So Mhmm. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna hear more next time too about your your shift and, like, what were the greatest things that impacted that shift for you.
[00:37:01] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. I actually like that because it's gonna really make me think about breaking that down, actually. Mhmm. Yeah. Come back with some thoughts. Alright. Well, thank you so much, Maddie, for this moment, and we will do this again soon.
[00:37:18] Mattie Clark:
Sounds great. Thanks so much, Tracy. Talk soon. Talk soon.
[00:37:27] Tracie Pinnock:
Wait. Why is it saying end meeting? Wait. Was that not okay. There we go.
Okay. Alright. Welcome back to the Bitter to Better podcast. We have again my friend, Maddie Clark, who if you listened a few episodes ago, you would have heard her, talking about family constellations as she is a family constellations facilitator. And when we were talking, we kind of threw out this idea of having some just casual informal conversations around various topics related to or adjacent to dating, breakups, life management, things like that, relationships, all of that. And so we thought, you know, maybe periodically, we'll have Maddie pop in, and her and I will just talk and discuss. So we have kind of a loose format here where, I have a a general topic in mind that was spurred from our last conversation. We're kinda throwing it out there, but it can go off into various other areas.
And, one of the things is that with Maddie being a family constellations facilitator, I did want her to be able to share about what she's up to right now. And so I'll kinda just pass it over to you, Maddie, a little bit, and then we'll get into conversation.
[00:01:14] Mattie Clark:
Awesome. So glad to be back. I'm very excited about this conversation for today. And, yeah, just an an update on my end that last time we spoke, I was, I had just launched my first cohort for a ninety day group called Rerouted Rebels. And so it it does a lot of constellations. And my idea was that usually constellations are, like, these big one off events, and then it can be challenging to hold the energy that's been cleared and released and integrated. So instead of, like, one big one that's like, oh my goodness, It's like a bunch of microcosmic constellations.
And so it's going well, and I'm gonna start another cohort in October. So that's the update there.
[00:02:08] Tracie Pinnock:
Awesome. And I know we were chatting a little bit before. And so you said you're starting another cohort in October. How long do does the, program run?
[00:02:18] Mattie Clark:
Three months. Yep. Yep. So and it's almost every week. Yeah. And in fact, for this term, so that it ends by the holidays, I think it will be almost every week, yeah, from the October until December.
[00:02:37] Tracie Pinnock:
Got it. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. We're both kind of, on similar trajectories when it comes to this right now of launching things. Because as you were just what I just thought about you mentioned trying to get the next cohort finished before the holidays. I was thinking about how I just very informally on my Instagram yesterday talked about or no. Sorry. This morning. On my Instagram stories this morning, talked about, launching finally launching the date better program in January, but how I'm kind of working backwards. So if if my goal is for it to start in January, then I need to like, what do I need to get in place between now and then? And so, yes, being in that realm of, like, launching these and yours, like you said, is over a period of about, I guess, about ten to twelve weeks.
Yep. Mine will be, like, eight weeks. So just kind of being in the space of having goals to to have things happen, but then, you know, having to go backwards in putting in the work. But, awesome. So, yeah, I mean, we'll love to hear more and or to continue to hear about, you know, the process and how it's all going. So glad to have you back. The topic that I kinda threw out after the last time we spoke was this idea. And I honestly don't remember how it came up, but I remember sending you an email and saying, maybe we can, you know, chat about this, which is, you know what? It might have come up because we, at some point, I think, spoke about agreements, like social contracts, agreements, and relationships. Right?
Which brings me to think about what I call the exclusivity conversation, which is something that, people have listened to the podcast and stuff I've mentioned at times. I don't know if I've done I cannot remember. I have to go back and look. I don't know if I've done an actual episode specifically on this, but the the exclusivity conversation is one that I say needs to happen between going from casually dating someone to deciding to that you want to exclusively date them, which is to say when you're casually dating them, it means that you were you, you were dating other people as well or you had the option to date other people and go out on dates with other people and all of that. But then you identify maybe there's someone who you do want to focus your time and energy on. So you would then like to date them exclusively, which is still a step before a committed relationship.
But the thing here is is that a lot of people get what I call exclusive in their heads or prematurely exclusive with someone because they've decided, oh, yeah. I'm I'm happy to just date this person, but they have not had any conversations or had any or or even if they've had attempted conversations, they've gotten no confirmation from the other person that that's what they want to do and that both people's idea of what that means is the same. And so I say you need to have an exclusivity conversation. But I tend to get this is one of the things that I get the most pushback on when I'm working with people and talking with women in particular around dating. And I just think it's an interesting thing and a a helpful conversation to have, like, thoughts on why people push back, what, you know, what are our concerns, what all of that good stuff.
And then, like, the results and repercussions of having and not having these conversations and how this all the trickle down effect. So, yeah, I just thought it's it's just interesting discourse, because it is one of the areas that I do think is one of the most challenging when I'm when I'm working with women. So I don't know. Just figured we'd share thoughts. Do you have any general ideas about this,
[00:06:23] Mattie Clark:
this idea? Yeah. I mean, what what comes up from a Family Constellutions perspective is that explicit agreements are required for a strong bond. And the conversation or agreement around exclusivity is really about giving one another to each other fully. And so when you give fully and you agree to do that, you have a strong bond where you can bear life together, either literally, like, bearing children or just bearing life, like, in a sense of resilience.
[00:07:09] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah.
[00:07:11] Mattie Clark:
The other thing that comes up is balance. It's like there's societal stuff from, you know, patriarchy and all sorts of other stuff about, like, what women bring and what men bring. And so when there's fogginess or confusion around this agreement, there's often some kind of imbalance. And so it's, you know, if there's desperation for the commitment on the part of the woman or extreme avoidance on the part of the man, there's that probably speaks to some kind of imbalance, some kind of imbalance of give and take. Yeah.
[00:07:48] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. Yeah. And and, I mean, that's a really good point, this idea of imbalance. Right? Because well and then also what you said about being able to have this explicit agreement also helps people to kind of bear life together. Right? Because what comes to mind for me in that is the idea of trust. Right? Like, in order to do life together, do things together, have what we would call a healthy relationship, you know, all would all would agree that trust is a foundational part. And so having some sort of explicit agreement about what the guidelines are, the boundaries are, what each person needs, you know, what they want and don't want. Right? Builds trust so that you can feel like you can fully engage with someone, so be vulnerable when you need to be, you know, share when you need to share, support, all of those things. Right? And so it's kind of like and so then when you bring up the imbalance piece, it's like, yeah. If we can't have that conversation or if we have that conversation and one party is noncommittal like, is not upfront, honest, can't say yes or no, then we already have also I think a bit of a foundational trust issue. Right? Because you you don't exactly know. And people will continue to push forward still without that oftentimes. Like, I just really like the person. Right? And so we're just gonna go with it. But, like, there's a foundational, like, trust issue there then when you can't get two people to, have a conversation, one, and two, just be really upfront and honest about it. So, like, it may not be that both people say, yes. We wanna be exclusive. But, ideally, what you want and what you need is for both people to be very clear about what they're up for and what they're not up for. You know? Yep.
Absolutely. So yeah. It yeah. It's just one of the things that and then in hindsight in the long like, the long game, like, I tell like, when I talk with women, I'm like, most of us have been on the other end of not having this conversation. Because oftentimes I mean, especially early in early in your early dating life. So, like, if someone's in their twenties or things like that, these conversations oftentimes don't happen because it's a very casual, let's not put a label on it, let's Netflix and chill chill and fall into or slide into some sort of situationship thing. And there is a time and place for all of that. And I think your twenties is it. It's like figuring that all out, letting it get messy, saying, alright. That's what I don't wanna do again. Okay. That's all of that.
Right? So most of us have been on the other end of this probably multiple times and get and have felt some of those repercussions where you're still like, you're now in some way entangled or committed with someone, whether it's one-sided or both sided, but you're still also trying to gather an understanding of what
[00:10:47] Mattie Clark:
of how you guys are supposed to function. It's exhausting and anxiety provoking, I think. But Yeah. And crazy making. And this is another part that we were gonna talk about is, like, is, like, kind of this internal confusion, lack of clarity, like, crazy making, and then that also being part of what prevents oftentimes a woman from initiating that that conversation. Right?
[00:11:18] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I I don't want him to think I'm too much. I don't want him to think I'm crazy. No. I can't possibly bring that conversation up. And so and so, yeah, a lot of my work is on helping women figure out how to have that conversation. But, honestly, before figuring out how to have it, really dialing in with why you would want to have it. So what I mean is right? Because there's a lot at stake. There's a lot at stake, especially when you're at a certain point in life and you you have certain expectations or goals for your life, right, and for your future. There is a lot at stake for not having this conversation. So, like, really, like, tuning in with yourself around, like, okay.
Well, why like, if I'm at a point of even con of wanting to or thinking I want to be exclusive with this person, but yet I'm hesitant on having the conversation, let's start with, yeah, what is making me want to go from casually dating this person to exclusively dating them? Like, what is helping me, like, decide I want to to attempt to commit to this, right, or to focus on just them and dating? Because maybe it feels good surface wise, but when you really dial it down, if you're not willing to have the conversation, do you have enough behind your decision or your thoughts of wanting to date them exclusively? Maybe you keep casually dating some other people because there is there can be so much risk in deciding that you want to behave in a more, exclusive manner with someone without having those reassurances that they also want to do the same thing and in the same ways as you. That that part too. That part.
[00:13:06] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Yeah. That part. That part. Yeah. I'm just so relieved to be 39 and not 22 right now in this Yeah.
[00:13:22] Tracie Pinnock:
It's rough. It's rough Yeah. Out there. And, actually, something's come to mind of a fairly recent conversation that I had with a 20 year old, especially when we were talking about trying to have direct, honest conversations with people. It's particularly rough in, like, the Gen z set and stuff like that because we know that social skills have taken a bit of a hit generationally there for various understandable reasons. And so the idea like, the fear that arise like, I have heard about arising in, like, that generation around talking to someone else who you are romantically interested in and being, like, genuine and, like, you know, a bit vulnerable, it's like it's it's actually kind of massive. Right? And we all naturally, as humans, have, you know, a concern about being rejected or any of that. That is very normal and appropriate.
And, also, that actually comes with the territory of deciding to engage with other humans. Like, I tell people, you can't you don't get to avoid the discomfort of that if you're going to choose to be social in any way, friendships, romantic, whatever. Right? It it's it's yeah. Comes with it. Right? So how do we navigate it? But yeah. So, like, definitely, like, the younger set, like, even trying to, like, have these conversations, I think, is an added layer, which I will say that, like, I do a lot of my work on focusing with women who are mid thirties and beyond.
Again, often, many of them have children, stuff like that. So back to this idea of the stakes. Right? It's like, alright. But you're in a you are in this place in life now. So it's you you don't quite have as much of the luxury of a 20 year old to not have these conversations with somebody who you are choosing to give your time and energy to in this more focused way. Yeah. I and I think about, like, I I'm kinda thinking about, like, in my own life, maybe repercussions of having been in exclusive situations, which quite frankly, I think just immediately jumped to, like, a committed relationship type of thing, but before having this exclusivity conversation in any real way. And it again, it was like I said, it's crazy making. It was anxiety provoking, to just exist in these relationships where I realized that we committed in ways where, like, we moved in together or we had kids together or, you know, we, you know, introduce each other to our families. Any of these different things. Right? But also hadn't, like, clarified certain other aspects of the relationship.
So there becomes this this, yeah, this real tug of war.
[00:16:22] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Yeah. Me too on the, like, kind of, like, oddity of, like, making all of these steps, like, towards commitment seemingly, but all implicit, not explicit. And just, like, shocking ways of, like like, a partner demonstrating commitment implicitly. So me, like, kind of naively assuming, well, if he's doing or saying these things, he must be all in. Right. But all evasive of the actual explicit agreement around where men frankly do hold their power in current society. Like, the commitment piece is kinda their their source of power.
[00:17:09] Tracie Pinnock:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It and back to the sense of, like, trust. So it's almost like you kind of end up committing with a certain amount of mistrust or uncertainty. What I'm saying is, like, you were saying, like, someone doing certain things that might trigger for you, oh, they must be all in because they're doing x y and z. But they're not being that explicit conversation and agreement, which almost leave this always leaves this air of a way out where someone's like, I never said, but I never said, but I never said that. Right? And it can go both ways, you know, the man, woman, whoever. But, like, that. Right? Again, how can I trust if it's like having you know, again, we talk about social contract, but it's like having a legal contract and you never signed the line? Like, you read the agreement. I never signed that, though. I never but you read the agreement. No. I never signed signed it. I never signed it. Right? It's it's that, which doesn't make you feel good and and that doesn't help you know how to proceed or navigate, you know, in a in a situation.
[00:18:13] Mattie Clark:
So Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking about some of the examples and, like, the ways to like, the complicated, wild, complex. I'm gonna call it crazy because that's that's reversing the whole, like, you know, women are crazy thing. Right. The crazy ways of evading that. Like, had a partner be like, please come move across the ocean to a different country for me and get a job here, but didn't really have the exclusivity conversation. Right. Right. Extreme and, like, another one the same as what you're saying, like, oh, yes. Let's do meet the parents. I love you. Okay. Well, we're meeting the parents and saying I love you, but we're not talking about exclusivity.
It's just wild. And then there's another one I'm thinking of of, like like, he wanted to start off, like, all exclusive, a 100% all in in the beginning. Mhmm. And I was like, well, no. Not yet. And then once I was ready for that, then, like, you know, which is another classic thing where it's like, oh, no. Now he's gonna still hold the power there. Anyway, it's just yeah. Yeah. I like I like the feeling I'm having right now. I was like, no. They're the crazy ones. Like,
[00:19:34] Tracie Pinnock:
actually, I mean but to your point of reversing that, right, rather than as, like, a woman feeling like, oh, I'm crazy for bringing this up, It's like, no. It's it's crazy to, like, exclusively focus on someone without some reassurances. That is wild, actually. Yeah. And Yeah. Is actually illogical. That part does not make sense. Right? But how we feel about how we'll be viewed or how we're looked at societally by that person, all of these things, that's, like, oftentimes a driving force for not having the conversation, but it's actually totally illogical not to have the conversation. Right?
And to that point of, like, I guess this is something that I also try to speak on with women around, I don't wanna seem crazy. And it's like asking, well, what would make you seem, like, too much or crazy by having this conversation? Meaning, the timing of it. Like, yes. You do wanna do some assessment. Right? I'm like, yeah. Am I trying to have this exclusivity conversation after I don't have two dates with the person, or have we been dating, getting to know each other, and and having conversation? And so it actually is reasonable. You know what I mean? Like, really asking ourselves what about this from a logical perspective is, inappropriate or wild or crazy, and really just checking that so that you don't allow someone to kind of, like, flip it around or, you know, do any of that. Because, again, it's illogical to say, I'm gonna focus my time and energy just on you in the, you know, dating realm or the romantic realm without any assurances. Right?
That doesn't make sense, but we do it all the time.
[00:21:22] Mattie Clark:
Do it all the time. We do it all the time because we gotta we gotta be cool girls. We gotta just, like, be cool. And you hit your thirties, and you're like, well, I'm gonna be a real girl now. Your estrogen's going down, and the realness is going up.
[00:21:38] Tracie Pinnock:
That part. I do not have the time or patience or energy. And if I'm going to this part too. Right? I think that your time most people just have to view their time as more valuable the older they get for multiple reasons. Right? And so if I'm going to give you this like, my time is a currency. Like, it is if if I'm giving this to you, I would like, how upset would I be to just feel like I wasted it because I just went in without any, again, re like, any agreements and without any real understandings about it. Right? Like, yeah, my my time was a lot cheaper when I was younger. It's true. It is way more pricey, way more pricey now. So come on. Like, you gotta give me something here.
[00:22:25] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. And, I mean, until about yesterday, women were property in marriage and did not have agency. So, yeah, we're still catching up Yeah. With the notion of our value and worth. Mhmm. And the systems that are have been impacting us for millennium. I mean
[00:22:52] Tracie Pinnock:
Yep. Yeah. It's true. It is very, very true. And I yeah. And because of, you know, of reasons like that, like, men, I think, yeah, they have a more they have a a a greater idea of of the value of their time and energy, I think, than a lot of women do, where it's like, well, you know, I have this to do or that to do. So and I don't know. Maybe that is part of what goes into, you know, some guys not wanting to establish that exclusivity because I mean, it it's valuable. I I I don't know that I want it. I want the benefits of moving exclusively with someone, but I don't know that I want the, you know, liability of it or that right? And and I don't know. Right? But but that is a very good point societally in terms of, generally speaking, how women are talked to and told to value their time and and energy versus men. It is it is different.
[00:23:51] Mattie Clark:
It is. It is. Yeah. Women are valued for who they're being and men for what they're doing, and so that part plays in massively.
[00:24:04] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. Yeah. It definitely creates that imbalance in the dating world. And like you mentioned, guys' power is in the commitment piece. Yeah. So
[00:24:16] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. Here we are. Here we
[00:24:21] Tracie Pinnock:
are. So yeah. I think that, I don't know. I'm I'm glad we we were able to flesh this out a bit because, again, when I think about, like, working with women, it's one of my, like, biggest pushes. I and and one of the biggest challenges I feel that I am trying to help work women through is, like, why you don't wanna just slide into commitments anymore like you did in the past, like we all did in the past. And all had re like, luxury too. And like I said, I'm like, there's a time and place for, like, letting all the mess happen so that you can clean it up and, like, establish certain things. Right? That there's that that is not objectively a problem.
It's about when you start really form forming ideas of how you want your life to be in in the future and all that, then it puts you in a place to have to make some more deliberate intentional choices. And that's the things you say yes to and no to and all of that stuff. You know, we get into, like, vetting dating partners out and stuff like that. But so having, like, conversations where, like, again, valuable. Like, think of anything else that you consider to be valuable. You don't just hand it over to somebody. You're like, listen. We need to have some some understandings. Right? And same thing. Same thing. So I don't know. Maybe it's mhmm.
[00:25:37] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. I was just gonna say that it's almost like there's this societal trans, and it's just like, oh, women, when we're younger, our value is just all in our youth. So it's like, okay. Let's just go out there, use that, enjoy life by, you know, attracting through our youth. And then that we start to realize that there's some cheapness to that, and then we start to actually dig into our real value and worth that's beyond that, and it just alters things. And it's it's also biochemical too, right, in the sense that we lose half our brain cells in puberty, so we're less choosy about partners, don't get them back till our mid twenties. And then I feel like there's, like, a decade of, like, repair and, like, coming out of the trans.
Then there's also the trances of, like, ancestral entanglements and patterns and generational stuff around fidelity and agreements and secrets. So, yeah, like you said, you, like, just go all in, do the best you can, and then you have to, like, disentangle from all of the stuff you got,
[00:26:53] Tracie Pinnock:
like, that you that you learn from your experience. Right. Right. Exactly that. The the learning from from the message, from the experience, from the highs, the lows, all of it.
[00:27:04] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Wild. And I'm also just I think I talked about this last time, but just this age that we're at from an astrological standpoint of the millennials are the Pluto and Scorpio generation. And since Pluto went into Aquarius, it means that Pluto is opposing boomers and squaring millennials. So it's kind of like an end of peak power for boomers and a beginning of peak power for millennials. And then Pluto and Scorpio is about power dynamics. So we're kinda here to really resolve, reconcile these hidden power dynamics that are happening. So
[00:27:50] Tracie Pinnock:
here we are. Yep. Here we are. Here we are. I love it. And I'm always here for the astrological perspective of things, so please always bring that. It helps, you know, get get this from all angles. I think I I like the, the in summary, the the reckoning with, like, power dynamics. That's where we are. We are we are shifting. I mean, one of the things that, like, I, just recently and just kind of some rebranding stuff, I've I'm, like, really, putting out the idea that I am helping women date from a more empowered place, more effective, and more enjoyable. Like, the three e's, empowered. Like, that's the, like, the biggest one for me because I do think there's a lot of disempowerment in dating.
I think for people in general and and then for women in particular, we're just give give away too much of that power and feel like we don't have it, because I think what it gets focused on a lot is what I is like, you know, how men behave and if they do this. And it's like that the part that's very true that none of us have control over another person's behavior. And I think acknowledging that makes people feel powerless. But I'm like, you absolutely have control over not just your behavior, but what you entertain, allow, tolerate. Right? So back to this idea of, like, vetting out and, you know, being willing to have bring up exclusivity with someone who you decided or think you may want to just exclusively date. Again, I'm not saying jump to commitment, but just like, hey. Let's just go out together and not, you know, entertain going out with other people, all of that. Right? But having that conversation and someone not responding in a way that's helpful for you is so important for you to, like, vet them out.
And so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:40] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. And I think about, you know, this this conversation for me on a personal level, it's like one of my greatest challenges has been overcoming self doubt and self betrayal. And so this, like, kind of coming out on the other side of a, like, at least decades long kind of excavation of self doubt and self betrayal is just yeah. There's just there's just so much in it, and it's really, I think, so much in society sets women up in dating to betray and doubt their basic wants and needs.
[00:30:31] Tracie Pinnock:
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So there's there's a lot of intentional overcoming of that as you're saying. Yeah.
[00:30:38] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. Yeah. That. Yeah. There's and there's just yeah. One other thing about what you were saying before I forget how you put it, but about, like, when you from a family constellations perspective, we would say, like, when you say yes to life. Because you had said something like, if you're gonna go out there and you're gonna be in relationships, you're gonna be in a bit of a learning experience. Like, you could just say no. I'm not gonna do all of that because it hurts and it's complicated. But in family constellations, you would say, yeah. But then you're saying no to life. Like, you're saying no to the complexity and all the things, but it's like that's saying no to life.
Yeah. So I think part of this conversation is, like, skills and
[00:31:31] Tracie Pinnock:
navigation around saying yes to life and all that entails. Right. Yep. What comes with it. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking to so yes. It's like you don't get to avoid the discomfort, right, of Yeah. Like you said, engaging with life, saying yes to life. It is absolutely gonna come with some bumps and bruises. But the alternative is to say no to life and, you know, deal with the repercussions of that, which oftentimes are are what we don't want. Right? Whether it's stagnation, boredom, isolation, loneliness, you you name it. And so, yeah, we have to, like, get out there and engage.
And it comes with, again, not being able to it it comes with having to interact with all different, types of people and therefore different experiences and behaviors and behaviors that we can't ultimately control if it's somebody else. But then it it makes us have to be particularly, responsible for ourselves. Right? Because there's a lot of, like, giving again, giving away our power. Oh, this person did this thing to me. And, obviously, depending on what we're talking about, but, like, especially when it comes to dating, like, did you have to stay? Because I'm talking about dating someone. I'm talking about meeting someone, you know, here, they are going on dates with them, deciding to text them, call them, whatever, go out. Like, do you have to keep showing up to that? Or, you know, are you allowing yourself to be put through these things for various reasons? There's a lot there's it could be a long list of reasons why I will put up with it. But, like, if you stop and ask yourself, like, yes. It's frustrating that this person treated you this way, but you do you have to actually put up with it?
That's a big one. It's a big one.
[00:33:12] Mattie Clark:
So Yeah. There's so much in that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:16] Tracie Pinnock:
I know. I'm I'm like, oh, maybe Percoli. I'm gonna literally write it down. For another conversation of, like, the things we put up with.
[00:33:25] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. And, like, why we do and from a constellation's perspective, like, different types of entanglements that these desperate desires to stay in something that doesn't serve us and doesn't feel generative. Yeah. There's a laundry list there.
[00:33:48] Tracie Pinnock:
I think, what I'm jotting down is how and why we give away our power. Right? I'm mentioning entanglements. Yeah, the ways in which it becomes a very you know, from a psychology perspective, we'd say, like, an external locus of control. Like, all these things are happening to me. And it's not that things are not happening to you, but it is also that you're remain you're staying at the party. Maybe it's time to go. Maybe it's time to leave the party. Right? So or not let certain people into the party. That too. All of these things. All of these things. Yes. Yes. I like that one. Yeah. Took me a long time to get to that latter one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My party became, way more exclusive over time. Let's say that way. They went from frat party rager, solo cup to martini glasses, fine crystal. We we can't not everyone can use the fine crystal. So that type of deal. Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:34:41] Mattie Clark:
So good. So good. Yeah. Yeah. You've had quite a journey. It's been so awesome being your friend and hearing about the transformation and yeah. Awesome.
[00:34:52] Tracie Pinnock:
It's been a thing. But, yeah, on that note, do you have any other thoughts, anything that you felt like you should throw in here, or, are we good to go and kind of can percolate on, you know, this this other topic for next time?
[00:35:07] Mattie Clark:
Yeah. I think the only other thing that's bubbling up is, like, maybe, like, my greatest tool for navigating dating differently has been playfulness.
[00:35:21] Tracie Pinnock:
Mhmm. And
[00:35:22] Mattie Clark:
and, like, the courage to to be playful with men. And, like, you know, I think there was, like, terror, like, litter like, really strong fear around kind of, like, mocking men or making fun of their crazy power things. And then when I started calling it out with playfulness, like, not, like, I hate you. You're a bad person. But just, like, oh, I see what you're doing here. Okay. Oh, okay. Or or, like, doubling down and, like, taking the power back by being like, okay. So you're gonna you're acting a little flaky here. Okay. You know, just like Mhmm. Yeah. I think just as a sort of, like, yeah, tool for navigating it, like, playfulness, levity, and not giving your depth Yes. Away Mhmm. Mhmm. Too quickly.
[00:36:17] Tracie Pinnock:
Jotting. Jotting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's Okay. Alright. Yes. I like this. I'll be sending an email immediately after this because that's gonna restore the ideas so that we can pick them up next time. But I I yeah. I'm I'm liking this back just like that final empowerment, empowered dating. You became more empowered in your romantic interactions and dating through playfulness.
[00:36:43] Mattie Clark:
You used playfulness as part of, yeah, the empowerment piece, which is which is awesome. So Mhmm. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna hear more next time too about your your shift and, like, what were the greatest things that impacted that shift for you.
[00:37:01] Tracie Pinnock:
Yeah. I actually like that because it's gonna really make me think about breaking that down, actually. Mhmm. Yeah. Come back with some thoughts. Alright. Well, thank you so much, Maddie, for this moment, and we will do this again soon.
[00:37:18] Mattie Clark:
Sounds great. Thanks so much, Tracy. Talk soon. Talk soon.
[00:37:27] Tracie Pinnock:
Wait. Why is it saying end meeting? Wait. Was that not okay. There we go.
Introduction and Guest Reintroduction
Maddie's Update on Rerouted Rebels
The Exclusivity Conversation in Dating
Challenges of Defining Relationship Boundaries
Navigating Commitment and Trust Issues
Empowerment and Self-Worth in Dating
Saying Yes to Life and Relationships
