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They're always around so how do you pick them out?

In episode #474 of Mere Mortals 'Musings', Juan and I discuss: the definition of trickery for accruing value, personal anecdotes of being scammed, learnings from Edward Chancellor's book 'Devil Take The Hindmost', recognising red flags such as offers that seem too good to be true, whether certain societal structures like the education system or the 9-to-5 work model could be seen as scams and whether scams that lead to positive outcomes are actually scams.

Huge thanks to Cole McCormick for the support this week, it means the world to us!

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[00:00:08] Kyrin Down:

Welcome Mere Mortalites to another episode   of the mere mortals musings live here. Juan, what why now we second February 2nd 2nd of Feb   slightly latest. And   as you might summarize, this is the mere mortals podcast musings deep conversations with light hearted touch   effective philosophy. We talk about some of the interesting things that are going on in the world, our interpretation of these events,   and how you can apply them perhaps to your everyday life and things like this. Today's topic is going to be about scammers and scam names.   This is related to 2 things from last week. 1 was   I   didn't have time slash forgot   to include 2 portions of my   long   rant, I guess, about the   the impending crypto AI bubble that I think it's going to happen.  

I actually didn't hear much feedback on whether people disagree with that. Is there going to be a bubble? Is there not? And what are your thoughts on? Is there going to be one?   By what?   A crazy run up in prices of things related to crypto and AI?  

[00:01:19] Juan Granados:

Yes, they will be to 18 months. I don't necessarily think there's going to be a pop.   Okay, in exchange that it will just be a you've got a super cycler over here. I think it'll be I think it'll be a case of there will be a run up and there will be a   horizontal jump   to other   impending   AI related things, but not just purely   the chatbots that we're seeing today. Okay. Interesting.  

[00:01:45] Kyrin Down:

Interesting.   Horizontal jumps here. Yes, no,   no, no poppings and forwards popping.   So there was a section on scams   that I'd taken from that book. And I didn't   forgot to not forgot to talk about.  

[00:02:02] Juan Granados:

I decided to move it over because Peter was asking about husky and some of the scam behavior perhaps that's that's in there. I think we need to talk about that straight up. I think when you talk about have the mere mortals been scamming the mere mortalites at home with husky.   Is it would it be considered scams the fact that you've talked about husky so much given that it's not we just say technically,   is it a scam?  

[00:02:25] Kyrin Down:

I look,   you know,   I actually didn't actually do the   research. Did you research up what technically is a scam? The definition of a scam? I can do so very Yeah, if you wouldn't mind doing that.   If I had to go off the top of my head, I would have said it is   kind of fraud and false promises   is would be what   the definition of a scam   is. That that is what in my head, and in that case, I would   disqualify   OSCE from that, because I think it makes it very   clear and obvious from the   get go.   And everything that is said that it's   going to 0 and that's meme and it's meant to be for fun. So true. That is what I would argue. Okay.  



[00:03:14] Juan Granados:

Here's the asset to give me a fun division. A scam is like a magic trick. But instead of amazement, you're left with an empty wallet and a bruised ego.   Someone convinces you to trade your money, trust the time for something that's either fake, worthless or never existed in the first place. Okay, well, by that definition,  

[00:03:31] Kyrin Down:

if if you call convincing   by straining stayed up,   that it's   Yeah, I don't know it.  

[00:03:41] Juan Granados:

Where'd you get that definition? From Ah, let's just like a some definition that I got   AI to give me. I can give  

[00:03:49] Kyrin Down:

a normal definition. Yeah. See, yeah, here's here's what I come up with a dishonest scheme, a fraud,   a swindle.  

[00:04:00] Juan Granados:

Scheme is a deceptive scheme or fraud designed to trick someone into giving up money, personal information or resources under   all pretenses.  

[00:04:08] Kyrin Down:

Yeah. So  

[00:04:09] Juan Granados:

dishonest plan for making money or getting advantage, especially one that involves tricking people. Well, let's, I mean, let's go back. So look, I would say the Husky isn't because they have stated outright that it's gonna be worthless, like 0. They're like, our our hypothesis and plan and roadmap is 0. So it's gonna be nothing. Don't expect anything. If you're gonna call and I guess this is what I'd say, like, so   we're giving you an example of of what is a scam and not scamming, then we'll get into maybe more details. Similar thing was with, Tim Ferris's   NFTs with cockpunch.  

He   stated to everyone, hey, when this NFT comes out, if you want to buy it, all the proceeds are going to go to the Sify Foundation, right? That's one aspect of it. 2,   he is making no promises   about it, no expectations.   If it goes well,   that's on you. But he said treat it basically as if you were having an expensive   restaurant meal and you want to just support and be part of whatever it is that he is doing. If he wants to do it, awesome. If he's going to stop doing it, fine, he'll stop doing it.   So again he's made it very clear   what the   end outcome or   the output of whatever he's doing is   not trying to maneuver or place   some other idea of what's going to happen in its place.  

So if you if you really for me I go   that in me doesn't seem like Hoskie is a scam   as much as Oak Punch NFT from Tim Ferriss is a scam.   It would then though, this is the middle ground that we talk about, it would feel scammy   if   I was sitting here saying, oh, you know,   I'll punch nft. It's they're talking about doing this or that and it might be great. You should get in there. That's scammy behavior because I guess I'm promising   something to occur   with either maybe not a backing or more of a hope. Same thing with Hoskie. Now if we were talking sorry. Just before the podcast, we're we're looking around, Hoskie is at its lowest point that it's been since since it was like a really, really low points.   We could sit here and be like, well, you know, it was high on these conversations.  

I think that's when it would start becoming a scammy behavior if that was the intent of the conversation. Yeah. So we're only allowed to talk about it if it's above its previous. Well, well,   if there's no basis, I guess if there's no basis, right? Like if there's no,   where there is a basis and when there wouldn't be a scammy behavior, and we're talking financially, but you can apply this to loads and loads of places would be Tesla as a stock. There is, financial analysts out there who are, sort of saying, oh, look, this could get up to 2 and a half $1,000 per share, $4,000   per share. That would make Elon Musk, like, a $3,000,000,000,000   net worth, something crazy like that. But   that's like a 10 x multiple   or 8 x multiple from what it is today, something roughly about that.  

But when you look at that, there is basis. There are reasons as to why it might do that. Yes. They're pushing hardcore in the AI practices in the autonomous driving   and a whole host of other things underneath the Tesla banner.   So there's there's basis. There's reasonability, there's predictability,   perhaps behind some of those depending if you think of it to be true or whether or not going to reach it. Okay. There's there's factors that   make it not scammy in that way. Right?   I think it's very it's dependent on how much, maybe proof, evidence, backing, all these sort of things happens to be for a particular,   again, financial but you could you could say this on   fitness,   fitness perspective, if   someone says,   I can get you I can get you to drop 8 kilos in the next 8 weeks. And in order to do that,   You know, you can do learn a language in 3 months. Fluent. Yeah, all these sort of quotes. And again,   if the   if the result   at the very beginning is known not to be met by the person who's either selling or imposing that on you, then yeah, absolutely. That's that's scary behavior. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's the  

[00:08:13] Kyrin Down:

falsity of   the claims, I think is what really distinguishes   something from it. So   if you're going by your first definition of persuading someone to   exchange money for something worthless,   then   a lot and worthless is a hard definition, because   nothing is truly worthless. I believe values in the I have the beholder. So if some if one person in the world values,   you know, whatever coin or whatever thing, then technically, it's not worthless.   But I would   in many ways just go   look at something like what Trump would add the Trump meme.   I don't know what was promised with that. Did you ever read   the thing? I didn't either.  

This is one of those ones where   I think what what Peter was getting at was   a lot of these things,   it even if it's not on its very surface,   the scammy behavior,   so husky, for example,   they can still contribute to things which are scammy behaviour, such as if he has given tokens to a centralized exchange.   And then the exchange is pumping the token saying like, you want to buy this thing, like it's going to go up in price, like advertising it and things like that.   That is scammy behaviour, and you're kind of supporting it   with the thing that you've created. And that then I think that's a good point. That's one I hadn't really considered before.  

I'm generally not a fan of attributing   or if hand effects   to personal responsibility,   I just because I buy a packet of cookies   in the in the supermarket.   And   that   company is, you know, going from   the plastic that they're using is depriving some,   you know, South Peruvian guy of water because   Nestle is connected with this thing.   Like that's that's way too far responsibility   chain for me to personally feel guilty that that poor guy I   shouldn't buy that cookie packet because   of this   5th chain reasoning that's going on. But if it's second, or,   yeah, you know what, that's, that's something that I do feel a bit responsible for, or I would say there is some responsibility there.  

So I'll actually probably talk with   Husky token, because I'm planning a chat with him this month. And I'll bring that up and ask   what what goes on behind the scenes with these things? How does he feel   in terms of   that responsibility?  

[00:10:54] Juan Granados:

If that is indeed what's going on? Well, I'll take it back to the original one because there might be might be maybe sitting at home. There might be a late claim that Hosky is a scam.   And I guess if I was trying to, I guess, think about it through it.   In my example, there was a story of Tim Ferriss and the NFTs there that he was doing.   It is the the intent matters for what you are placing forward because it's it's also a kind of a point of view between the,   the individual, the entity that places forward the request or the asked or what you're putting on offer, and then the person who's consuming it. So   here, I'm putting myself in Tim Ferriss shoes, if he   both   said that this is, again, going to be just for fun, don't take it as an investment, nothing like that.  

But then underlying   that the actual genuine   behavior or the mindset behind it is like, oh, yes, that's what it is.   Then even if the consumer picks it up, and they're thinking, oh, but it could be an investment or it could go down or whatever it may be.   Say as much as you want that it could be a scam that you could have a lens towards thinking about that. But the genuineness is what was an offer?   What was also it was it was said to be exactly what it was, but it was also an intent like the underlying intent was also the same. So it matched   some people out there now I'm not saying this is true or not, but some people out there could say, well, yes,   there's   this asset there's token husky being offered and they're saying it's going to be $0 like don't you think about it anything   the query out there though is yeah but underlying that you know and there is a real intent for it to be 0 or is it the reverse psychology behavior that actually we do want it to make a ton load of money and then we're all gonna be happy about it.  

I don't like, you know, you've talked to them obviously more than I have. I say part of it is still more the fun in the community than it is like the token getting anything. Well, the whole point of it and this is where you can have  

[00:12:58] Kyrin Down:

legit fine behavior that perhaps is in an overarching   scheme that is scamming. So if you have a   MLM   is MLM multi level marketing pyramid scheme going on, you could be chatting with some dude who's coming to your house and he is all in believer.   He doesn't realize it's a scam. And so his intent, his behavior is   what I would say is in   some some manner ethical, like he is doing what he thinks best.   He believes in this product that he's selling to perhaps it's some gadget that   will revolutionize   home cleaning or something like this. And or it's just, you   know, really, really cheap products that is   claims to work really, really well for years years and actually will fall apart within a week.  

That guy can I think genuinely   sell you something not realize he's part of a scam?   You've been your   you as the consumer get scammed out of something, but the direct interface that you haven't had, you've had is with someone.   And then it's the actual like, level above. And so in this case, I would actually say,   one of the reasons and probably the main intent that OSG and Vegas, the developer,   created the token   was   1,   it turned out to be as usual with meme coins, like it was a bit of fun. Hey, I want to test this thing out. Can this work? Holy shit, a lot of people   are acquiring this.  

And then they kind of were like, well, what can we do with this? Well, let's let's help try and decentralize the Cardano blockchain.   And that's what they've been doing with these stake pools and only allowing single stake pool operators and things like this. This is where you could go.   Cardano is a scam. That's the that's like the end effect result of this.   You're you're helping participate in a system which is   scammy I. E. It's a shitcoin.   Cardano is a shit coin, etcetera, etcetera.   I don't personally believe that.   And putting everything in black and white like that. I don't think it's helpful, particularly.  

So   yeah, it's my personal   opinion. Let's wrap up Polsky. So   I don't think it's a scam because   it   one   is   stating upfront what it is. And there   is, from what I can see a lot of efforts to   enforce that as well. So in the Discord,   price talk is not allowed. It's or if you do you get mocked, and you're like, it's going to 0. It's the price is 0. We need more zeros.   That is the   overarching   theme that's going on. And it's not like,   oh, yeah, we'll just have this on the surface. And then secretly in the cabal meetings or in the underlying, like, wink, wink, not much nudge.   I haven't seen any of that. And so that's why I'm still comfortable talking about it. I think it's still super funny. I love the paradox of   going to 0, but sometimes it does actually jump up in price. And you're like, what the fuck?  

And   I'll address those   other secondary effects with them when I when I get the chance. Okay. So yeah, that's, that was that. Have you ever been scammed 1? Have you ever felt the full force of a scamming?  

[00:16:27] Juan Granados:

Yes, yes. I guess you want to share with us? Oh, I've talked about it like in the can't remember if I took it fully in the on the podcast or not, but not not too long ago. It was just before Christmas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately,   there was a game that my sister had requested as a present from from me or her. Okay, no. So I'll go   and grab that.   Went through the link on the website. It looked   kind of legitimate,   kind of too good to be true. And I guess,   I don't know if we'll talk about it too much in this podcast, but spotting a scam. It was definitely the I thought scam signs. So Okay. So do a couple of scam signs. It was definitely too good to be true.   There was   certain call outs about the website where I was like, I can't, there's no real way to contact or no, like direct link to a message or whatever it may be.  

I went through and purchased this particular pack. And it said that it had   shipped certain things but not the others. And the email looked a bit scammy. Now, by this point, I'd already purchased it. So there's nothing more I could do. A couple of weeks later goes by and I'm like, hey, where's this present that I bought? Or my sister   and attempt to go on, you know, track it down or see the website   gone. Websites gone.   The emails, like, you can't go to any tracking or anything.   I was like, man,   whatever.   Fortunately, in that particular circumstance, I was able to go back to the bank and put in a claim for, like, a scam basically, and they were able to give me the money back that came through. Yep. Fantastic.  

However,   there is some parts of the story because   a few days before Christmas,   the game arrived. It arrived. Yeah, it arrives.  

[00:18:09] Kyrin Down:

So it actually arrived. So once a scammer.  

[00:18:12] Juan Granados:

So technically, I got the money back for this particular product.   So did they scam me, immortalize?   Well, I guess in the end they did because this particular game, this Game Boy thing promised   that you could play   15,000 games. And if you see the videos, you'll see ads for it sometimes if you've maybe I'm talking about it and you're listening to this, it'll pop up for you, where like the graphics look fantastic. It looks really solid.   It's nothing like that. It was the cheapest piece of plastic.   It had   a lot of games, not as many games as it touted to be. It was just real old school games   and I did give it a go and I saw my sister playing it as well   and not the buttons don't exactly work, like it does move, but sometimes it's janky and it'll kind of move it around.  

So   yes, we ended up getting a product in the end,   but no, it wasn't what we expected. So let's just say it's 3 quarters a scam. Like they they   scam you in a way that they got rid of the website and they give you something, but it's not a great something.   Very very closely tied to that though we also purchased a jumping castle for our daughter as well   we in fact paid a couple of extra dollars for this particular again an on like a link through online   extra few dollars just because we liked the shape better than it came up one that was being sold at the time. So   rather than the trusty one, we went with that. And that one never appeared. Again, same thing, websites appeared,   the or email things, like, didn't work anymore. But again, we're able to reclaim the money. That was like a full scam. That was definitely a full scam. Okay, I thought you were going to tell the story of the the missing gardener,  

[00:19:48] Kyrin Down:

which No, I was talking about that before but Yeah. Tell you about the story as well. But that's Well, I'm actually thinking Juan's a scammer here and that this guy   will actually come garden your place sometime and then realize like, oh, shit, Juan took a put a claim into this money as well. And it's never   money. But yeah, So I've actually had something similar once where I bought something   was meant to be for Christmas. So I bought it like a month or 2 in advance   arrived after Christmas.   By that time, I like I personally was just like, whatever, I got scammed. It's $40 I'm like, not gonna   even bother to try and get any money back ended up showing up and was like, oh, shit. Well, there you go. They actually did it.  

And the other main one was when I was in Mexico   and I arrived in Mexico. I didn't know the conversion rate off the top of my head. Silly. I should have known.   I caught a taxi and I ended up paying in   Mexican pesos instead of US dollars. And I would have known in US like I was being overcharged   ended up being like, I remember what was off the top of my head, but I probably paid like 80 or 90. It was either Australian or US, but what should have been like a $20 or $30 So I paid 3 times 4 times as much because they scammed me with the   exchange rate by falsely promising that the exchange rate was XYZ when it was actually some ABC.  

So   those were the the only two instances that I can really recall of and all other ones have been   I don't know, is it   scammed in a relationship if someone says they're going to do something and they don't, you know, the well, that's false promises.  

[00:21:31] Juan Granados:

That's different, I guess, because it's not about money. Well, I think it's it's mostly about money. No. No. I could there's other schemes, I guess you could it's what you define. Again,   if the intent is always that it's going to be different to what you actually put the offer to be,   then it's a scam. Again, to the relationship,   if your partner said,   hey, honey, I'll pick you up from the airport. Don't worry about that. You don't have to get a taxi or whatnot. Yeah. But they never lock up and you do have to get a taxi. But her mind  

[00:22:01] Kyrin Down:

was,   oh, I'm I'm not gonna go pick them up. Like if that was if that was the underlying thought No. That's that's not a scam. That's that's just them being a dick to you. I think it needs money. I think it needs money.  

[00:22:15] Juan Granados:

And Oh, for the okay. Let's put it this way. There's gonna be a there's gonna be a profit on the other end then.   So it doesn't have to be money. There's gonna be some sort of profit on the other end for the,   individual entity like something. Yeah. Money,   time, assets,   some sort of other value. I'll trade my time for   doing this. Maybe that's a better way to put it. Yeah. That's a better way to describe because because one of the things so I was thinking what what's a non financial scam?   Because what came to my mind was education system.   Okay. In in a way, right? Because if you think about the the original introduction of the the education system as we know it right now, I'm talking about school system. Yeah. That was set up and introduced in, what is it, like, 1800s,   early 1900s,   more so Industrial revolution. Industrial revolution style so that kids and people would be able to transition from that, hey, sit,   listen, learn, follow rules so that you can go into industries and go and follow suit with that.  

Look, you can make a claim that it's changed now to what we are today.   And I have heard people say, well, yeah, the education system is a scam. My only my only thing is, yeah, but who's profiting? Yeah, that's a that's a loose,  

[00:23:26] Kyrin Down:

a very loose definite. Yeah.  

[00:23:28] Juan Granados:

That's getting into like, everything's conspiracy theory. The one the other one though, that you could spin. So again, depends on where you sit sit in it all is the 9 to 5, the rat race.   Is that is that a scam   in that,   who might be profiteering?   Maybe business owners, maybe,   large corporations in that,   yes, having you having a lot of individuals being the 9 to 5,   one takes away people from running other businesses that might lower the cost of goods because there's less competition,   there might be more   control over the the contracts that you have. I guess in the way that I've seen them as well, you know, I've worked,   normal full time jobs and more so contracting jobs. And I guess what people don't realize   is, you know, generally a full time job is still just a contract.  

It's just one that doesn't have a particular end date, but you can very easily find yourself with an end date on some of those contracts. So it's same sign realistically,   in in different part parts. But   that's what I was trying to in my mind. Some of those have been called out as being scams.   I guess it just doesn't have a clear line of sight to Yeah, but then who's profit,   profiting or who's a scammer than doing that? Or it's just the have we gone down the path that the system has evolved? And it is a scam, but we're kinda like scamming ourselves on it. I think broken system is a better description than scam scam. Yeah. So yeah.  

[00:24:55] Kyrin Down:

All right, let's let's jump off to the diamonds,  

[00:24:59] Juan Granados:

Diamonds. Diamonds.   In marriage and engagement. That one's like a scam. That one I'll call it out. It's gonna be a scam. That's that's pretty close to one. That's that's fine.   The beers family. I could go and look at the exact details. But they are generally 90% of the diamond trade. If I could describe,   before before the 1900s, so before that, if you were to get a gauge or whatnot, you didn't give each other diamond rings. It was generally just a ring or it was like a promise necklace, something similar to that. But it was around that early 1900s   with the BS family when, hey,   massive advertising run to be like, hey, diamonds are a girl's best friend. And from around that point onwards, they were able to kind of pursue the like, hey, if you're going to get engaged, you have to use a diamond. And of course, they were  

[00:25:42] Kyrin Down:

profiting from that ridiculously so and from then on started the bit of like, oh, if you want to get engaged as diamond. Once again, that's that's not a scam in the sense that that they're giving what they promised, which is good feelings, you know, women enjoy this, etcetera.   Well, I mean, look,   advertising   this getting into advertising another   pet peeve of mine, which is,   yeah, maybe this is all just rooted to that experience. I had deep in my childhood when I watched this video, this advertisement,   this game was kind of like doctor but in a circular rotating   UFO type shape. And you had to   pick out these things as they came past you and you play with your 4 friends and invite everyone to having the time of their life or not. Bought it 40 $50 which is a lot at the time for well, I mean, still wasn't it wasn't at the time. But especially for a kid.  

And I just remember being like, this is the lamest shit out like none of my friends wanted to play it. It was it was just awful, awful, awful. And   I felt like I'd been scammed. I'd been scammed. I'd been promised a good time. But I was like, Tyrone, hey, time, it's having   been promised a good time. I exchanged my money for this and I did not get the said promised time.   And so this is why advertising   is it's not obviously not 100% a scam, but it's got some pretty scam.   So yeah,   let's jump on to the boostagram lounge.   And then we'll we'll talk about some of the actual scam signs, perhaps the aftermath of what can come from from being scammed as well. So   did we have any this week? I'm trying to recall off the top of my head. It was one yesterday.  



[00:27:24] Juan Granados:

Yesterday, there was one. Oh, yeah. That was mister Colby.   Yeah. I'll call that one out. So it was Colby McCormick. Bubbles are meant to be blown bigger. 1111   sat set using fountain.   Oh. Should they should they should they That's a long call.   Bubbles are meant to be blown bigger. I'm assuming, you know, referring in terms   of the bubble from a financial perspective. Yes.  

[00:27:47] Kyrin Down:

Well, I don't know if they're meant to be they will be blown bigger. I don't know if they're meant to be.   Yeah, it's a it's up for debate. You know, gets very much into   the can you ever stop out financial bubbles from what I've seen,   governments have tried   through   experimentation,   just over the course of history of letting them run, letting them not run, clamping them down trying to keep some sort of control. But I mean, generally, they all seem they always seem to just occur no matter what. So yeah, but generally, I mean, generally, governments will  

[00:28:20] Juan Granados:

run-in a way of how we will expend more than we really have and put ourselves into debt   because they want innovation to   produce enough   income that then it will offset the debt that they're sitting in. So I guess you could turn kinda say in that regard,   generally, governments will put themselves in a position where like, they'll spend more now, so they can get a better promise in the future. And that might include letting bubbles run because  

[00:28:47] Kyrin Down:

letting it run would mean more innovation or more growth in that perspective. I don't think that's how they view it. As if you ask like the average government employee or the person making decisions like that. I don't think that's what the thought that's going through their head. I think it's usually related to just   other factors related to other parts of the economy or things like that. I doubt   I doubt that's what the direct that's not how I'm speaking from.   Anyway, let's jump into   some of the scam signs that I noticed throughout the   the book,   Devil Take the Hindemos, Edward Chancellor, here's a couple of things you'll see a lot of virtual signaling. So   the betterment of sending a portion of money to charity is also a great marketing strategy for associative goodwill.  

Let's look at the effective altruism of Mr. Sam Bankman Fried. He used that as a   smokescreen. And it's just the most hilarious one because he wasn't even doing it at the moment. I'm going to make all this money and in the future, I'm going to give it all away. It's   like, that's the most   just,   I don't know how people   ever thought that was a   as   associating that with effective altruism and saying like, that's as that Yeah, that's a rock solid idea. That's so dumb.   We saw a lot of shares given the notable people. So it's kind of like respectability,   bribery or   forced skin in the game, if you want to call it that.  

And this is actually where Husky actually ticks one of these boxes because they did give me a bunch of Husky right at the start. So   that that is   something so   airdrops, for example, to known crypto wallets will will kind of give the respect the respectability   of Vitalik like, oh, he owns this coin. So   so this sort of thing.   American Japanese politicians   did a lot of this in the   in their days   of of having shares given to them. And then there are forwards like this person owns this and you'll even see it with,   one of the things that I've seen recently is a lot of   Donald Trump's picks for cabinet or something.  

It'd be like, this guy owns Bitcoin or this guy owns blah, blah, blah, as if   him owning it now makes it more   respectable in some sense.   Yeah.   Technology moves slow. And so   when you're seeing   claims of revolutionary   technology doing X, Y, Z,   diving bells, burglar farms, fire engines were the ones in the 16 nineties of patent companies being like, this is the shit like this is going to change the world like this fire engine, this thing.   You can see that a lot with crypto projects where it'll be like   claiming 20 ks TPS   with base roll up zk SNARKs written in the move language   A lot of   if it's new and shiny,   it's very hard to   determine value of a lot of these things. And so when they're saying,   we've got all of this stuff, or we're gonna have all of this stuff, another we're gonna, it's gonna in the   future. You see the   people confusing   future value for present value and   getting that awfully wrong.  

Purposeful vagaries, so hiding a finances   movements of money when you're,   and especially that being portrayed as a good thing. It's like,  

[00:32:24] Juan Granados:

this person like the Bernie Madoff.  

[00:32:27] Kyrin Down:

Like, it's like the mystique or aura you could say like, he's just got like, no one knows how he does it must be a genius. Or it could be like, no one knows how he does it. He's actually  

[00:32:37] Juan Granados:

doing some really shitty behavior. Yeah, behind the scenes. Okay. So that's like the Bernie Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme where he basically ran a fraudulent investment fund promised high end and consistent high and consistent returns.   But instead of generating the legitimate profits, he was using the money from new investors to pay the off the early investors   to create that illusion of success, and they get more money to be able to pay off the other people. And one of the things that you can actually notice with a scam, and this is getting towards  

[00:33:05] Kyrin Down:

financial bubbles and these peaks and troughs   is if you looked at his investment returns over time, it was just up into the right, like a nice linear curve   of payouts over time.   That does not reflect financial markets at all. The exuberance,   the ups and downs of the news of the whims of humans   is what,   funnily enough categorizes   something that's not a scam.   You'd think like, wait, if it goes down 90%   It's   that surely a scam, right? But no, it's actually if it goes down, and then can kind of go back up again in the future,   or rebuild itself.  

I many of the stock companies, I think it was   Bitcoin, I think is the only asset which has gone down more than 75%   Four times, but Apple and some companies like that have done done it 3 times before.   So,   you know, it's one of those ones where it's like, if even like these $1,000,000,000,000   companies,   having these massive falls doesn't doesn't mean they're a scam,   even though   they lose a lot of their paper value. So   a game with no losers.   So these Japanese sci tech companies   were paid to borrow money, a. K. A. The negative interest rates   that were happening then   due to issuances of bonds and dollars switched again, which would depreciate over loans. So swapping a dollar liability for yen liability made money   like   there's   portions of this book where I'm reading it. I'm trying to understand. I'm like,   I don't know what just happened then, but it sounds like you just created money by creating money.  

That is so silly.   And then the last ones here was   it doesn't matter the product   so might enjoy this one.   They were   selling stock related to Australian trade right in the   in the   I think it was like in the 18 20s or something   Or no, sorry, it was even before this. It was 50 years before Captain Cook arrived in Australia that was selling stock related to Australian trade.   So they knew Australia existed obviously, because the Dutch had found it previously. But before we have even like come and come on before that. Yeah, before that any people there really that was selling stuff related to trade.   They could be doing this on salt properties, mines, fisheries, insurance, shell companies, bubbles.  

One of my favorites was fictitious emerging market loans to non existent countries.   This guy created this country. He was like, this country is like amazing. It's going to have all these awesome things. This was in the 18 20s   And   that the country didn't even exist and people were buying into it. So   I don't know how to categorize you said too good to be true.   When it is,   you know, how do you categorize too good to be true? Because you can't have crazy ridiculous shit happen.   Bitcoin in a way is too good to be true. How can something rise by   however many percent it has over the years?  

And being the best financial asset in history by by far in terms of like the quickest   yet.   It's   not a scam. Like Bitcoin is not a scam. So   how do you how do you   differentiate between the too good to be true then revolutionary   technology that actually is going to change the world? And I guess the  

[00:36:36] Juan Granados:

I was just saying   that like,   let's say,   largest   history goes down this path and Bitcoin ends up being $0   in 12 years time. Okay.   Because some new tech comes out, bust the maybe the cryptography that comes out of it. It's just obsolete now because of something else and it goes $0.   I don't think that that then still means that it was a scam ever.   Like that doesn't then imply that oh,   there's reached   no value now.   It's worthless. We had all these people saying like Michael Sailor, go buy this because you have to Yeah, it was was blockbuster a scam because it's   it's a company. It's yeah. Yeah. So I think that that time domain is again, that that's what's gonna fall back in line of if you are presenting an offer   and what you are presenting   or the offer that is presented   underlying that whoever, whoever, or the entity   that is suggesting it or putting it forth truly believe that   the value you're gonna get is what they are suggesting,   then I don't know if you can call it a scam in that particular way   where you know very clearly like the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme. That's a scam as in he's telling you one thing but that's not what he's doing. He's doing something completely different to try and provide the illusion that that is happening. Can a scam be a good thing?  

Oh.   Christopher Columbus.   Did  

[00:37:55] Kyrin Down:

you did you remember Christopher Columbus from back in school? Well, I know. I don't think I ever learned about him back in school, but, I I am aware of who he is as as a historical figure. Yep. Historical figure, that whole thing about circumnavigating  

[00:38:08] Juan Granados:

the,   the world or going to America and doing certain things.   The in the 40 year laws laws of power, there's a couple stories of him. Now,   technically, this   is called Kemi. He just outright lied about who he was to the particular queen or the king at the time to get the funds to go do it. So he was, he was a like in most history books. Yeah. That you read, he comes from a particular,   highly successful family with,   navigational skills.   All bullshit. All complete and utter bullshit. He didn't have that at all. He, in fact, came from something else. Had no clue how to navigate   most of the,   he was the capital of the boat. Most of the people on the boat were the ones who knew what the hell was going on yet. No clue about navigation, but he sold himself really well to the kings and the queens at the time to be like, hey, give me money. I can go and do this thing. I'll be really persistent to go do it. Eventually, go ahead and take the fleet to go and do whatever he had to do. Failed, came back and then did it again to actually succeed. So you could say the suit was scamming the heck out of the kings of Yeah. Giving the money. Be like, oh, you give me some money so I can go do this. She's going full well. He doesn't even know how to do it to then go and apply it.  

Maybe historically you can look back and be like, well, kind of glad he did because obviously there's some progression beyond it. Maybe someone else would have done it, but,   could you call that a scam? Like he was scamming them for sure, but   is that a betterment   to society and the human  

[00:39:33] Kyrin Down:

race? Yeah, I think outcome is what matters   more   than intent in these cases. So   the   this,   I'll be stepping over on legal precedents here in some regard. So, you know, because motive is certainly   a factor when it comes to things, but you know, if someone's wants to murder someone else, and then the murder doesn't actually pan out, they miss the shot.   The   the effects   of the like, the punishment that is metered out is not the same. So the outcome obviously matters in a lot of these cases. So let's say Bernie Madoff   had all the, you know, had this money, he was spending it on lavish shit on   on, you know, the cars and the women on boats and all this stuff. Let's say he'd done this, you know,   nowadays, maybe like   30 years later,   he buys some drugs on   Silk Road or whatever.  

And he actually   accumulates a stash of Bitcoin.   And   as it's like getting towards, you know, popping zone for him, his Bitcoin stash is actually rising in price. And so he's actually starting to manage to pay pay people back. And he's like, oh, shit, I've actually got like, I can actually pay everyone back. And let's say he then does decide to   the he did scam them all in terms of what was promised. But if he paid everyone back,   and just got lucky as fuck,   I would I would not count that as a scam.   Because the outcome was that he didn't, he didn't   actually   rob people of their their finances, their money. So   I think there are certain circumstances,   you can probably think of   prospectors   promising, you know, I've found this really amazing deposit,   I just need some money to, you know, get these equipment or tools, and we'll start excavating working on it, knowing full well, there's no good deposit there, and then they actually find one.  

And they'd luck into what they've done.  

[00:41:41] Juan Granados:

I don't think I consider that a scam. Well, see, I would I would consider that a scam. I think the because   result the outcome, but the intent at the beginning that would have mattered so that there was an example   of this,   again, I think it was late 1800s, early 1900s,   where these 2   I don't remember the names of it. These 2 individuals that basically went to, like, the richest wealthiest Americans at the time, like the Rockefellers and all these other people. And they were like, look, we found this great mine out and it's raining place in the USA, you've got to come see it.   They got a couple of people out there. They took the rocks,   looked at the gems that come out and all are holy crap is amazing.  

You know, the company, you know, Tiffany and Co. So this is back in there when I was like,   guess it was already started. But like the lady Tiffany itself,   they got her to assess some of the   gems that were coming out from this were all these like super wealthy people. They were like, no, like, we don't believe that we're gonna get this other independent person to come out. These 2 guys were like, okay, cool. So, we'll take you out here so you can assess it. Took them out,   gathered up even more gems from this area. They were like, this is the most   insane   deposit we've ever seen. They verified it with Tiffany to be like oh yep this is all good. Then they right at the very end these 2 guys were like well we want part of the fucking opportunity here, give us something like a percentage   of whatever money you make and these rich people were like nah fuck you we're gonna just pay you out like you can take whatever it was like a 1,000,000 $5,000,000 at the time like you take all the money they were like oh whatever okay   they leave and of course when they go there to start digging up, there is no gems. They'd just been planted on the surface. What they'd be doing was just like planting and then they got an advance for money, which they took to England, bought more gems, brought it back. Nice. Yeah. Hit her around. Now let's just say in that circumstance,   they did dig up the ground and they found lots of gems.  

That's still a scam. Yeah. Okay. That's Yeah. No. Like in their mind, they still scammed the money out of them even if   luck played on their part. Sure. So it's like in a Just a a foiled scam Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like in the Bernie Maddox in the Bernie Maddox   piece with the Ponzi scheme, it's   even if he had lucked out because let's just say   someone died and gave him $100,000,000,000   out of luck. Okay, it's so lucky that you were able to, but you were still lying. Yeah, there were still lies in that you were saying you were getting all these returns. It's still the,   yeah, I do agree some parts of the output or the outcome do matter.  

But very much the intent of what's going behind it doesn't matter as well. Yeah. And this is why white collar crime is so hard to  

[00:44:21] Kyrin Down:

prosecute.   Because it's like, what's this person intentionally   doing   dodgy shit with this company putting funds were in risky investments and things like this, or were they just incompetent?   And it's really hard to   be able to get into the minds of of these people. And this is why you know, a lot of times they're relying on emails and   direct links between people. And you know, this is where they'll have   a brother who's the majority shareholder of some subsidiary company,   where they give a contract to and the contract falls through, but they pull put all their money in it.   And it's like, well, look,   there was a benefit that was made financially, it was a second or third order to someone an associate or someone you know, and there's likely that money is being funneled back to you. But unless we have proof of that funneling of money, or these direct linkages,   very hard to prove that this company   did something really bad in sense of lost a lot of money or made a really bad mistake.  

But, you know, how are you   trying to find out was this scam? Was this scam? Was this a fraud? Yeah, it's hard. Or was this just incompetence?  

[00:45:39] Juan Granados:

Unless he gets found out, like, unless he gets, like, picked up and get the details out of it, how is it? Like, are you really gonna know? Something else that I put, came up on socials was,   I don't know where it was. I don't know the details of it. All I remember seeing was,   this guy got off   the any jail time or any issues that was going to come to him   because he had   think it was that he had raped a lady. Right?   But he'd gotten off it because his lawyer had successfully   put through that he was sick. So he had sexsomnia,   which was it's a type of parasomnia,   a sleep disorder, where the person engages in sexual behaviors   are very kind of a con while you're sleepwalking   or you're sleep deprived, etcetera. So   the again,   how do you prove that that is like true? Are you scamming the system? Like, are you like, when you found out like, oh, you look like you're a stressed guy. We could say it's sleep sexsomnia,   and that you were doing this out of not not your own will, but you were sleepwalking and you did this while that occurred. Again, I don't have no other details about the system. The the case here.  

What I'm saying is, say something like that.   How do   you find out if someone's actually scamming the system in that real in that regard right against like laws because   it's very difficult to go and prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt that oh yeah that's what happened you know even if the person has that was that actually what caused that to be the effective as well? So   yes, there's probably, you know, how we just talked about how we've been scammed before in the past and we've talked about some examples. I reckon there's  

[00:47:13] Kyrin Down:

countless other places where we've probably been scanned, but we just didn't even know about. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah. Like the legal systems. I mean, that's what the whole legal systems trying to do right to prove prove intent,   prove that   the   action   was   premeditated   or you know, in the cases of like manslaughter   is a bit different where it was like, okay, bad thing happened, but you didn't mean it for it to happen. But still, nevertheless, it happened and you had some culpability in it. Well, like little examples, little examples of what that would exist in  

[00:47:44] Juan Granados:

real life. Like you get shirts that are 100% cotton. What are they 96%,   you know? You know, it's 4%, but it's   it's the scam in you. So it's a little scam.   Protein   protein out there, like protein powder. Oh, yeah. You'll, you know, the percentages, it says I just got this much percentage of protein and this many grams of protein,   but can't remember the amount or the percentage of them. But a lot of them, when you actually run it through like full analysis   it's not actually protein it's a combination of a few things that they they can call it as protein   but it's actually cheaper substitutes that you can technically say it is but it isn't in fact protein. Yeah. So you know you're getting scammed of what you think it   is. But   I guess, because no one's pursuing it in any particular way. Or you'd have to go and do some real hard digging and analysis of your own.  

But it's still you're getting scammed, probably in multiple ways in everyday life. You just don't know about it. One of my favorite recent ones that I heard of was this.  

[00:48:42] Kyrin Down:

It was just a headline like man facing court after 52 instances of faking heart attack in restaurants to get out of pain.   And then like for the best comment below was like, this man has the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever.  

[00:48:57] Juan Granados:

I'd attack after fucking court   case.  

[00:49:01] Kyrin Down:

That'd be so funny.   This is just someone like all in on this game. Just like, oh, no, it's   a genital heart defects.  

[00:49:10] Juan Granados:

Yeah. That's what I mean. These are all things where it's like, you know, how do you go improve these things? Well, look, there's the okay. There's one scam,  

[00:49:20] Kyrin Down:

sort of a scam which happened   related to extremely fat people, which was, Nikocado Avocado. So he was   posting videos   which had the implicit assumption. And this is like there's times where there's implicit assumptions,   which,   in the   fairness of,   of what is expected behavior probably should be stated,   but in this case wasn't. So in this case, he was uploading videos, and it was assumed   these are recent videos   of him doing mukbangs   disgusting mukbangs.   When he was   however many kilos I think it was 300 ish, something like that.   He then posts a video showing him super slim,   lean   back to a normal   sub 100 kilos,   and was like, I fooled you guys. I tricked you   all. That's not actually me. And he's playing it off as his mastermind.  

Extremely manipulative.   That dude is legit fucking bonkers.   Did he scam people? And but a lot of people were like, holy shit, he got me. So it's like, we enjoy being tricked as well.   People were tricked with their time in a sense of watching it.   Yeah. Yet there was like a nice   aspect to it. So you can have like,   scam like behavior that actually is   a surprise. It's something that you enjoy.  

[00:50:47] Juan Granados:

Yeah. That's not exactly a scam. But, you know, it's it's getting close to the borderline. It's Yeah. The word I think the definition of scam is hard. I think at the beginning when we're talking about it, there's a lot of out of it that has to fall in the line of financial because when you start talking about the human aspect of scam, it's   you know, it becomes messy. There's a lot of messiness when it comes into   humans' expectations, what you've like, what you assume is a scam, but maybe it's, you know,   played well for others, like in the 9 to 5 or education system, just because it doesn't work for 1 doesn't mean it's for everyone. So,  

[00:51:21] Kyrin Down:

yep, it's hard in that perspective. You asked about is there scams that   are good in some certain sense. So there's this guy called Binance Stuff on YouTube.   And I found him recently and I'm actually kind of into these real scrappy YouTubers right now. People who make yeah, honestly, that kind of videos   reminiscent of what I'm creating just with like the webcam at home, you know, it's   and having like the pictures on the screen. It's kind of scrappy. Like it's not full studio. It's not, it's not   perfection to the tee.   And so he makes these ones where it's like just him and his like random house and   little little picture on the side and he's usually doing stuff showing stuff on the screen.  

And he showed this one which was   about the recent Flockers debacle one you heard of Flockers   now you wouldn't have because it's just   the scamiest stupidest shit, like mean coin, whatever it is, I don't even know like it's dime a dozen, you will find   100 of these if you wanted to just do just picked on this one. Anyway.   Yeah, nobody could claim their tokens.   And there was things like, oh, just send a DM to the dev. He'll set he'll set you up, you know, just just absolute   stupidest shit.   But what he was noting was it was a snake's nest of scammers. They were all congregated in one place, because there's basically   this thing, the way it marketed itself was kind of,   it was like a scammy for scammers, in essence. So it was   another one I've mentioned recently, you'll see on YouTube,   people are asking like, Oh, can you help help me with my my wallet?  

It's,   you know, the seed phrases   list of 12 words. And then if you actually check it, sure enough, there's $100   of USDC or something in there.   But you need some ETH to,   to transfer that out. And so if you put any ETH in there, to transfer it out, there's a script that will automatically just take it and your ETH is gone. And so   it's kind of trying to get scammers because,   you know, if someone's asking for help,   and they're putting a seed phrase, and there's money in there, it's not your money, you shouldn't be taking that. So it's kind of scamming a scammer in essence. So I think, I think there are and this is getting to like the, you know, vigilante justice, the serial killer who only kills serial killers. Well, he's still a bad dude, but he's certainly not as bad as the people that he is he's killing. So   there's there's levels to this game. Yeah.  



[00:53:55] Juan Granados:

Yeah. Because   I guess when   we in this whole conversation, we haven't we haven't specifically stated out that scamming is bad or good. I love like,   like we didn't say like it's scamming for a good we're always talking about the the end result or like the person who's consuming the scam. Yeah.  

[00:54:13] Kyrin Down:

My meta goal meta philosophy is lying as bad. So in this case, yes,   scamming falls under lying. So yeah. Okay. Even if you're lying for a good reason.   There's   look, we won't get too deep into that. It's hard. It's hard. Buying by and large 99.9  

[00:54:30] Juan Granados:

percent of the times is a bad thing. It's bad. It will lead to bad results. I think I'll I'll summarize it for me on on this perspective from scams. Try to avoid the obvious signs that lead to scams financially. Otherwise,   there are some they're going to be hard to pick for sure, but at least avoid the really obvious ones.   If there's quick money, quick gains, quick whatever to be made without the certain amount of effort obtained that is generally required.   Obviously,   be aware of   that. And I'd I'd probably say it more so, question if if you wanna   I guess from what we've been talking about, question the the intent, like why is this person or entity doing what they are doing? And generally, if you're not paying for it, then you're the product you're you're paying in some other way. So yeah, think about that. Yeah, I'd add on to that the, you know, at the time that I got scammed,  

[00:55:22] Kyrin Down:

or   both the online one,   and in person,   there was something in my gut that knew me that knew something was wrong. It was like, this is weird. Like, why did that person behave like that? Obviously, it's more obvious after the fact, of course. And so, you know, there's a bit of hindsight going on there. But   when you Yeah, there are times when you can feel things, I always advocate,   have your money locked secured in the most   in the way where you're the most comfortable with where if it did get taken,   you could legitimately say like, you could you'd still be wrecked   and mortified and maybe have really bad outcomes in your life. But   if you can in your own head, say,   I did everything that I could, like with the knowledge I had available. That was that was that was what I saw. So for a lot of people, that's just going to be leaving money in the bank.  

Very poor financial decision   in terms of   inflation and what's going on and how your purchasing power is being decreased. But   if you if you don't know about investing, if you haven't put in the research to find out about   x y z,   I think that's probably the best way to avoid scams. And   yeah, then it's like, you know,   as lame as it is, you got to do your own research. You know, the only reason I'm very comfortable being all in is almost essentially all in   on on crypto   is because I've done so much fucking work on learning about Bitcoin and learning about these other things. So but again, though, if it all went to 0,   I'd feel comfortable, you know, my security practices, for example, I've got,   I think is probably   the best that I can manage   with the resources I have available at the moment.  

And so if everything got taken, I'd be like,   well,   that really sucks. And that really hurts. But I wouldn't blame myself for  

[00:57:19] Juan Granados:

I should have known better. I should have done better because everything that you'd like done the research for Yeah, pointed in a direction that it wasn't going to be that yet. Nevertheless, you know,  

[00:57:29] Kyrin Down:

that's why scams still suck. And it's still, you know,   even though maybe in my mind, I'll be like, somewhat justified   and not beating myself up over it.   It'll still really hurt. There's still be a lot of bad consequences for my life if   all my wallets got drained, for example. So, yeah.   I think we'll leave it there for today. There was something I've been watching some videos on financial delusions, particularly   the GME stocks.   Bed Bath and Beyond BBY, if   you've heard of those before, I reckon those would be kind of fun to get into next week. And it can also tie into the aftermath of   what happens after   a bubble purse. Okay. Yeah.  

That doesn't   didn't really fit into this episode. So I was like, oh, okay. Financial dilutions and  

[00:58:20] Juan Granados:

bubble burstings, bubble bursts. Yeah. Yep. We'll finally get into what,   Cole was talking about. Talk about, you know, what happens when the bubble gets blown a little bit too far? Yeah. And then what happens afterwards? Okay. Good. Alright.   Well, leave it in the more nuanced. Once again, this is a Valley for Valley show, which means you can,   contribute time to talent and treasure,  

[00:58:41] Kyrin Down:

time, you know, share the show with someone, give it a like, subscribe,   comment, all those sorts of things.   Talent.   Is there anything you'd improve on the show? Anything you'd love to hear about?   We want to know your thoughts. Have you been scammed   some sort of way reaching out by any of the social media platforms and then mere mortalspodcast.com/supportfortreasure.  

[00:59:02] Juan Granados:

Correct. And there's PayPal link down below as well. And there is no scheming that's behind that we're very direct about, you know, its value sending you back and value that we're giving you. So simple as that. A 100%.   Thank you very much for listening in Myanmar for those who have been doing so live for those who are listening to this later. Oh, okay. Obviously, join us live from 9 am usually on a Sunday time. Any comments at all? Yeah. I'm just gonna try and bring it up.   No. No. That's it. Totally there. Thank you very much. Be well wherever you are in the world. Give   me your money.