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I'm all in baby!

In Episode #465 of Mere Mortals Musings we delve into the psychology of investing, exploring the emotional and mindset aspects that influence investment decisions. A lot of focus on emotional control and mindset training, drawing parallels between fitness and investing. The importance of preparation and maintaining a neutral mindset is highlighted, as well as the dangers of getting swept up in market trends. We then shift to the broader question of why we invest, examining the motivations behind financial decisions and the concept of 'enough.' The conversation touches on the importance of understanding one's ideal cost of living and the psychological factors that drive investment choices. We also discuss the role of risk and probability in investment strategies, emphasising the need for rational and logical decision-making.

Huge thanks to Chad F and Gene Everett for the support!

Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:02:24) Mindset Training and Emotional Control
(00:08:28) The Purpose of Investing
(00:16:27) Defining Enough & Cost of Ideal Living
(00:27:32) Optimism and Rational Investing
(00:38:38) Becoming Mercenary in Investing
(00:38:38) Boostagram Lounge
(00:51:10) Risk Adjusted Return and Probability
(01:02:10) Reflection/Learning From Mistakes
(01:04:28) V4V: Time/Talent/Treasure

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[00:00:05] Kyrin Down:

We all can be mortal mortals.  

[00:00:08] Juan Granados:

Welcome   mere mortalites   to another episode of the mere mortals musings this week. We are back to our regular topics   with a focus,   deep conversations with a lighthearted touch, trying   to get into the meat of a particular topic and examine it from a mere mortals lens. So you get a blending of some theoretical stuff, maybe some definitions   as well as some practical things that we're actually doing. You've got Kyrin here on this side. Got Juan here on the other side. On the 1st December, we are slightly late 9 AM Australian Eastern Standard Time on a Sunday.   As usual,   this topic came up in last week's one. I can't remember exactly the I should probably start writing down why it came up, but it came up   psychology of investing.  

And I wanted to dive into this. It's the investing season   At the moment, there's going to be some   on crazy stuff happening.   It actually is because global liquidity, there's a lot more of it. So people have more money. So they're going to be investing it.   So   or spending it, I guess, but you probably should be investing it. We'll talk Maybe why? I don't know if that's true.   Well, certainly more,   when there's more liquidity, there's more   asset prices go up because people are investing it right. Or speculating   might even touch upon the difference between those 2.  

So   I think that makes sense to me. In any case,   this   this episode, I think would be less of the technique   of investing. So this would be things such as dollar cost averaging   or even the areas,   stonks, real estate, crypto, etcetera. And more on kind of like the thought patterns and emotional patterns is what I wanted to really touch upon. So I've got 2   main sections here. I think the first one we'll talk about emotional control   or just emotions   in the first half. Do the boost grab lunch and then we'll get into my second which is related to paradox.  

[00:02:11] Kyrin Down:

Okay, your favorite one of my favorite.  

[00:02:15] Juan Granados:

So first of all, Mark, do you have any initial things that you wanted to talk about? And no, I've got I've got lots of things, but I think it'll fit nicely with any of the topics. Alright, sweet. So   I'll start off with this one, which is mindset training.   So I can't remember if I told you this in the other the other the other week, but there's this guy in the gym, Leo.   He gave me a rather interesting compliment, one I'd never heard of before. And yeah, I told this to my brother. And he's like, that's a really good compliment. Because   it's, it's a unique one, you're gonna remember that who gives a compliment like that. And basically,   he   is really cool, fun guy. And he's just one of those guys. He's like, it's fun to be around. And he dishes out the compliments. He says nice things. And so   we're talking about training and he's like, Yeah, man, you're trained. So like, it's really I see you in here. Like, every time you're in here, when I when I come in, you're really dedicated to see what you're doing. It's like, it's cool.  

And then it came up the other day, and we're chatting. And he's like,   just asking about what we do and stuff. And like, oh, you know, but kind of on a semi retired, don't   don't have to work.   I invest and stuff. And he's like, Oh,   you'd be a great investor. I know you would be because I see you. I see your training. I see you. You're meticulous with your notes. Yeah, You show up every day. Like I can tell you're a really good investor.   I was like, well,   I'm not sure about that. But   some and I'll talk about why I'm not sure about that shortly. But   it was it was really interesting compliment. And it got to the like the mindset training, I think, which is also related to, to investing. And   I think it's,   I prep a lot before I actually train, for example. So   if you're an there's going to be a quite a few analogies here to fitness and then psychology of investing because   as Leo said, there might be some overlap.  

So one of the things I do is actually prep a lot before training.   You know, going to the gym, look at what I'm going to do what I want for this session,   how I'm going to approach it,   especially when it comes to like emotional control.   I don't want to be in the gym one day like fucking zooming around going whoo like you know just hit pb go go crazy   and then because I don't hit a pb the next week be down in the dumps   like fuck my life is suck at this you know blah blah blah So I think there's   a good thing to kind of come into the gym neutral   is what I've been trying to do. Have a plan and sure celebrate the wins. But also like, if you have a bad day, it's not it's not going to be the end of the world and don't   and not let a bad session   change.  

My approach for the for the following day, the following week, the following month.   This requires some reflection. I'll talk about that in the next bit. So   I think it's similar for investing.   You don't want to get swept away in the like the latest craze, the latest bullshit.   If something goes up, really,   When I'm talking about investing here, I'm not talking about trading either. So this is more of like a buy and long term hold. So   if you're trading, I think that's a lot more closer to speculating,   which is   you don't particularly believe in,   I don't know, the underlying asset, once again, doesn't really matter what it is.  

But   this is in essence, I think there's something to do with, you got to train your mind to   almost not worry about it, do your preparation.   And with investing, it's a bit different to   fitness because you don't actually have to do the thing like you do the thing once you put some money into whatever it is. And then you just kind of got to like, let it sit and not forget about and not do anything. So I think this is one of those ones where it's yet   need to train your mindset to not get into the state where   you're constantly worrying about it. If it goes up, you do it changes your behavior. If it goes down, it changes your behavior.  

It's better to do your prep, think about what you want to do, enact it, and then just kind of like, let it sit. So I think there's a   it's almost like, yeah, you probably should have a bit of mindset training.   Before you actually invest who to think like, do some preparation.   So yeah, that was one of the things, you know, rigid focus, iron discipline to a plan, not getting swept away.   Stopping myself from doing a handstand in front of a pretty girl.   Just just for like, flaunting is   just as important as I don't know, setting a cell limit for a meme coin, if you have one or, or not, you know, aping in as the expression is into the latest AI thing. And now it's, you know, good chips. And now it's in video. Now   it's master stock.  

All those sorts of things.  

[00:07:13] Kyrin Down:

But are we talking about the psychology of investing or psychology of finance?   Well, I thought that was investing. Is that Because yeah. I guess it'd be slightly I think it'd be slightly there is slight differences if you're talking more generalistic on finances versus   I think investing. I think that there's   it's a subset I guess I'd say of the finances conversation. Correct. Yeah. One aspect of what you were saying then I guess one of the notes I was taking was   all of that is good and well   but you have to be in a certain position to be even thinking in that state. I guess I would say. Well, you got to have some money, some capital. Correct, I guess part of it, I guess, is psychology and you're saying it's an emotional being. All of that means diddly fucking squat if you haven't gone past your must have in life. Like, as a human, immortal,   you have to   have the things that you need to survive and exist. Right? Yeah. I'm I'm  

[00:08:06] Juan Granados:

the person I was talking to them the imaginary one would be someone who's,   you know, got some income, probably through a job,   steadily in, they've sorted out the basics of   rent,   food, and so they might have doesn't really matter the amount   might have $100   to be able to put into something   1,000, 10,000,   100,000   I think   all of those   more or less stay the same, just depending on the psychology, I guess will change depending on your   risk  

[00:08:42] Kyrin Down:

averseness or your your risk taking capabilities. Yeah. Which I'll touch upon later. So Yeah. So so like with that stated, so yep. We've got it right. We're not yeah. Obviously, there's like the must haves in a human that you kind of won and obviously   you can live without them technically you could be homeless   and make a do but in general I'm sure you want to live in a place. Homeless. Have some d gens with their meme coins on their phones. Yeah, look you probably want to have some level of you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs requirements met. Cool. We've gone beyond that point. I guess psychology goes beyond that in that underlying it.   I guess you would go towards what is the what should you have or what could you have.  

The abundance or go even deeper to the question of why is it that you invest? This is something that I've tackled now for a few years now in the conversation. In that   at the very,   as you state that question, you'll say, yeah, why would you invest in this? And let's just say it's Bitcoin   or price goes up. Let's just say that. Now, there's other reasons to that particular asset that makes it   great as an investment. Not just   perhaps the financial aspect, but the operability on it in comparison to other systems.   Cool. You can talk about that. So there's various reasons why it's a value asset. Right?  

Same thing you could say with property same thing but the main question I think it needs to be answered correctly which then ties to the psychology of a person   is yeah but why like why do you actually care about that what is the reason I've said this you know, thought about it maybe a year and a bit ago, right?   I now live in a place that I really want to live. Yeah, I have a growing family. I've got certain things that I've got   the period question and   rather psychology that goes between this is on one aspect I   listen to or I've got friends or I see people who in whatever quota you want to think from an investment perspective, holy heck, it's just   multiple levels   down the line in terms of what they're doing.  

But if you had to and every individually sebivis, it's that line of yeah, but   why do you want to invest in the psychology that sits behind that is a really really important thing which I think is tied with then how much you'd be willing to risk how much you'd be willing to do.   We mentioned this I don't know if we're talking about on the podcast or we're saying it off the podcast.   In relation to the casino, you know, at a casino, you know, there's this basically 1 in a 1000, 1 in 2,000 chance that you might get in a week. Is it weekly or monthly?  

[00:11:20] Juan Granados:

So it's a weekly so basically the Brisbane Casino that on a Wednesday evening, they'll have a like a super draw or something for anyone who's played in the last month.   They'll just randomly   call out their name, and you can win $40  

[00:11:35] Kyrin Down:

to $50, something like that. So then  

[00:11:38] Juan Granados:

at some point, they cap it and then they're like, someone must win tonight. And then so it goes from like,   probably a 1 in 1,000,200,000  

[00:11:48] Kyrin Down:

chance down to a 1 in 1,000 chance. So I think it's a it's a good limit, sir, of asking those type of hypotheticals, because I think they can arrive at   why why or what you would actually do with   money or with a good investment because let's take for instance and we'll probably not have to answer this but just play at home here, I'm immortalized with this. If you landed and you won $50,000   What would you do with that $50,000? I think varying answers depending on your circumstances. What you want to do? What you enjoy? Fine. Put that aside.   Next question. Let's get heavy, right? You get given, you win a $100,000,000   right? Kind of like a lottery. Now, there's going to be people who are going to a percentage who are going to just   blow the $100,000,000 and off it goes. Let's just put aside those people. I'd rather high percentage. Yeah, but let's put a lot of lottery when it's done. Let's put away those individuals and just the rest who might have a propensity to want to invest or do things, you know, like to, you know, manage it better. If you give someone a $100,000,000   just think about it in your mind, hold for a second. It's like, what are you gonna do with it? And you can start listing off like, well I do this and this and this. I'm sure that a lot of the things that you'd probably come up with are going to be liabilities.  

If you're really in the mindset of investing and grow it some of it, you maybe pick a lot of assets, a lot of growth assets.   Fine.   Now, if the week after I gave you another $100,000,000 Yeah, here you go. Here's another $100,000,000   Doesn't change what you do with a $100,000,000   As in, you keep getting this additional like   big sums of money, which for most humans on earth is going to be a gigantic change to whatever you decide   to do. The underlying question is what changes in your life? What would you want it to change with that extra amount of money? And I think   the part of the answer of the psychology of investing has to be tied in with that because   if you ask me that question, I'll, I guess I'll answer it. You gave me a $100,000,000   Similarly, I'd probably say 70% goes to growing assets,   that are dividend yielding and growth yielding or something like that. The rest blow it. Have a great time share with people, whatever. If you get me another 100,   part of me goes,   I don't know if it would change anything. Like it doesn't actually, at that point, if I was to add another   whole boatload of assets, it doesn't   change my life nor the lifestyle that I would want to lead in any dramatic effect.  

And I think each person has to ask that question or know how to really introspect that question correctly. Otherwise,   the and I'm sure people will say, well, you've got another $100,000,000 you can get a plane, you can do these sort of things, then I think it's more of a challenge on the psychological aspect of, okay, but then what is your enough? If you never have a   pretty clear line of what enough is,   then you're going to go on the deep end when it comes into investing because it isn't as cut and dry around what is it that you're aiming for.   Another aspect,   for me personally, from a family perspective,   I don't want more assets, more growth. Growth now. That helps me 0, zilch.  

I need cash flow. I need cash flow. Cash flow is like my king for me.   I wouldn't care about holding an asset that triples in price necessarily. That's not   beneficial in the sense of   my lifestyle is now at a space where I just need enough cash flow that supports that and then I'm able to go and do other things that free me up.   Again, that sort of articulation and that's not even well articulated.   I think the psychology of finance or investing   has to be tied to how well can you answer some of these questions around what it is that you want to do. Another concept of it is called COIL concept,   concept cost of   ideal living.  

And, you know, it's, you could do equations, you could do numbers, but basically it's the statement of per month what would be your ideal life cost.   I've done this, I've done this, and I think it's something like $27,000   a month.   Right? And this is crazy listings and whatnot.   Now, again, if I invest   and get to $25,000   a month or $50,000 a month and then the idea comes,   there's another con, there's another potential here that, you know, you could do this and do you spend these hours to get quadruple that   again the question that has really got to be asked is   why if you're already meeting the ideal cost of living and you can make other like you can make genuine   decisions around yet but it's about giving it's about donating more it's about saving other people's lives it's about helping out your family it's friends   okay that's justifiable   I think a lot of those it's the those are the real questions that form the psychology of investing   otherwise   you can get real prone to them be emotionally dragged into a myriad of things.  



[00:16:27] Juan Granados:

Let's let's jump right right to the beginning beginning again, which is you've got someone why like, what is investing, I guess we probably should have started off with the definition.   I haven't looked this up. So I'm just going off the top of my head here. I imagine it'd be something like   utilizing a resource to   hopefully with the end goal of getting   extra resource from that is what I imagine, is something like that.   So   the   when you were just saying, then if you got 100,000,000,   and then you just said cash flow is your is your main priority,   then surely   the most optimal thing for you would not to be put it in   both dividends   and things which give you cash back, you just hold the cash, because then you've got $100,000,000   cash flow, you don't need to. So   obviously, then, if you if you're wanting to put it into those things, then there's an extra additional thing, which is like, okay,   yes, cash flow is important to me, but I would like  

[00:17:31] Kyrin Down:

my my resource to grow a bit as well. Because if you're just holding a 1000000 I wouldn't have said necessarily the main says that it would be more because I would not want to be holding that much in a bank account   I guess I would say given the limitation of how much would be insured if something when you know, tits up or whatever, okay, I think it was the distribution of the the asset but I go I go to say it. Yeah, so it's a bit related to other things, which is what what's once again then is that you're, you're worried about it  

[00:17:59] Juan Granados:

diminishing.   Because you   because it's going to if you have that, then you've got a risk that is going to diminish because   bank collapses, you're only   insured for   1,500,250.   I don't know what the limit here is in Australia.   So   I guess the psychology is like, okay, I've got something I want to improve. It's almost like a self development mindset. And this is why you'll see a lot of overlap between like, self development gurus,   you know, one of the classic quintessential books of self help the one of the one of the only ones I really recommend and think if you've read this, you've read almost all of them think and grow rich Napoleon Hill, that whole book is   think, you know, and then grow rich, you know, get some money, get get some extra resources so that   this is,   you know, you can invest in yourself. So a lot of people will talk about, I had 10 grand,   and I spent it on like, a mastermind course,   or I spent it on myself to go to therapy or something.  

In this case, I'm going to stay away from that and talk more about the money side of things.   Because I think that's   probably more when you say the word invest. That's what people   expect more.   But it's it's a similar sort of thing. It's like, I've got a resource and I'm trying to put it in something can   end up having either more of that same resource   being money or additional benefits from that. Because I guess like, you could say I'm investing in the casino.   Sure, you're losing money, but maybe you're having a really fun time. And that's a good investment for you. Yeah.   That that gets into a whole different   aspect of psychology. So yeah,  

[00:19:38] Kyrin Down:

yeah, look, I just think I just think in general with psychology or like the what is investing? As you say, I think it was probably pretty close, you know, using or leveraging a resource to,   expect maybe a greater resource or a greater value at x amount of time.   I think the   the the damage can come when you go into the slippery slope of,   could haves in humans and new models,   and you just you then start being led by externalities or expectations   versus the real   internal, yeah, but what exactly is that you want, need, could have,   it probably often I think if you really looked at it, it'd be a lot less than what you actually think that it is needed. From an investment perspective. Yeah, yeah. When you were talking before about, you know, someone's got 100,000,000, what are they going to do with it? It's, it's very much dependent on  

[00:20:30] Juan Granados:

what their goals are, you know, so if someone and I think this is different, you know, if you've   you're like   a generalist, let's say, millennial, say my brother, you know, he might have   100,000,   maybe even 10 grand to, to invest.   I think they're,   you know, this is why a lot of people talk about, you know, you should take a lot more risks when you're younger, and do the things where   your your investing profile is going to change, for example, there where   you certainly want more of it, you want it to grow, because   if you get, you got 100, and then you   get, you know, 10% the next year,   or   what was the average stock markets like 8%.  

So over over 10 years,   you double it.   If you've got 100, if you put 100 in and you double it to 200, like it's not, it's not materially going to change your life much.   So that's where Yeah, you probably   you might want to consider going further off the risk curve and doing crazy things. And then you know, then it's like, I only lost 100   versus,   you know, my dad, for example, who's in his late 60s   he's not going to be looking to   be super risky double his money in a year because   for him once again, the   what's the what was it cost of ideal living? You know, he's pretty close to it. He just needs to kind of maintain   the assets he's already got, because he built it up over   the last 30, 40 years of,   of his working life and investing life.  

So yeah, it depends on your mindset. So that's probably a good starting point as well, like the psychology,   probably need to start with some self reflection, like, what is it that I want?   How quickly do I want it? And then you can kind of decide on   the   types of things. Yeah.  

[00:22:26] Kyrin Down:

Look, the the other example that often like often   gets mentioned is it's kind of similar it's retirement   and with often people will say like oh what are we talking about? I'm gonna play golf every weekend. I'm gonna buy a boat and I'm gonna go and then you work all your life, you invest, let's just say you make all this money you're like fuck yes I can now play golf every week and I can go boat and you do that and you hate it and so I was like fuck what's the point like you just did all this investing got all this money now counter that my dad does this and he's having the time of his life so but   your dad played   golf for a lot of his life and he knew that he enjoyed it. He also played tennis. I mean, he knew so he tried it and knew that he enjoyed it and so that was fine. It's kind of similar with me with this particular ventures in the fitness space I'm looking to do. I've not validated it 10 plus years that there's a lot of joy in that. Yeah. I will probably have no qualms and going heavy on that space because of that proof. If you're young though and you go, you know what I need? I need, I need a plane. Caribbean. A plane? Caribbean island. I need Caribbean island. I need 2 helicopters.  

Yeah. Parts of this is, you know, at the best of times, maybe you have a great family and that health comes with downsides,   but maybe you get all the way out and you're like, you know what, actually kind of sucks because whatever. I've got no friends   to join me. I'll tell you me personally, if you know, if I had unbelievable   amount of assets and I could live in Paris or New York or whatever. You know what? I still like to live here in Brisbane. So, I enjoy it like it's really nice. I enjoy living in Paris. I hate French people. When I travel, like when I travel a lot, I often want to get back into my like home space and do my thing.   I've known this now about myself. I don't actually want to travel a lot. Now, I don't want to travel. Okay, the idea and this is not a bad thing. It's just who I am. I don't want to travel for 6 months backpacking.  

It's both, I'm not at that stage and who do I find that much joy in doing that? I find a lot of joy in doing my routine   and exploring different things in short bursts.   That carries over into the psychology of investing because if you're not   purposeful about what you are doing for the investment, you're going to get yourself in some jacked up spaces where   for all it's, it's the typical end quote unquote   you   successfully invest into whatever it may be, you know, whatever asset, whatever idea,   you money goes up, you got all this money, but then if your expectations are either led by then the individuals that you're hanging around or you've got external expectations of well, you know, now I've got, you know, I'm making 10,000,000 a year. I should be living on this areas and not doing that.   That's going to bite you because maybe that's not actually what you want. You get yourself into   the even though you're making maybe potentially a lot of money, you then, you know, multiply by 10 your expenses per month, which then means you need to like grow even more to keep it up. You know,   I would say for the large majority of the immortal listening to this,   a very low percentage would know what their ideal cost of living is   and even fewer   would be   have the logical   or structures or define   maybe process in place   to maintain that to kind of go like if I've met that cool I can now be more risk averse   more relaxed about my investing. I think the majority of people would go, oh if I double this,   I want to double it again. Like I want to go more, let's go heavier, let's go bigger, let's do more and I think that can be a real challenge. We've talked about it the concept of enough   beforehand as well. But I think that aspect of cycle, the psychological   aspect of investing can be the hardest. I would even go, I would even go as far as to say and again this is for those who have the means to do this.  

To invest and do okay is easy.   It's easy like yes most often   people have lost money in investing.   Of course they have. Really?   Or like like people have lost money if you invest into things.   Sure, but most people?   No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I say like almost everyone   has invested will have had a love something but yeah, not necessarily. But in general, in general, like as humanity's moving towards a path of   more liquidity,   more availability,   more abundance, more productivity, more efficiency. It will be like lifts all boats, like everyone will probably go well from it, but I think the distinction is then   why is it that you're doing that? What is it that you need? What is the best path that it's going to be? You know, you can sleep at night and not be worried. I've done the very short term trading. Right? With some huge wins and huge losses. I hated that. I hate, I could not do people that I see like had our COVID episodes. I'll go like short on, short on bitcoin or long on this or what. Yeah. You can make a ridiculous amount of money, but mentally, I'm like, I'd now especially, man, there's no way I would wanna be doing that at all. That's just the mental load of doing that. Burden. I don't want to do that. Yeah, I want to have things that are just you wake up and like, just goes on. So it very much depends on a lot of those underlying questions that I think, inform what the psychology is that you present with investing in general. Yeah, probably the best mindset to have is  

[00:27:36] Juan Granados:

one of optimism. And I think this is rational optimism as well. Read a book like, I think it's the better main, better angels have on nature, or maybe it's enlightenment now by Steven Pinker. And that's one where it's just, like laid out graph after graph after graph showing, you know, humanity is improving   health wise and not not just in like the rich countries, but the poor countries as well.   Everything is going up. Everyone as a whole are richer than they used to be.   There's down periods for sure. Like the middle class and   certain countries has   had   a hit probably over the last like, 3 decades, maybe.  

But every  

[00:28:19] Kyrin Down:

is it too much? Maybe? Maybe. I'd   say 98% of humanity right now in the world,   every single person is better off than a king was in the 1600s. Yeah. Yeah. Basically that. So, like imagine that, right? It's just Correct. The   richest,   most famous,   most powerful people   500 years   ago, would literally be stumped. Yeah. In comparison to every single individual on Earth. Far some like really unfortunate human. They would be eating rotten meat because they had to because  

[00:28:47] Juan Granados:

Correct. Yeah. X reason they would be, you know, having   fucking cold showers every day. Goddamn man. I'm glad I was important. Now and think about this actually I hadn't thought about this. Sorry they wouldn't be having showers they'd be bathing in the fucking river.  

[00:29:00] Kyrin Down:

Even think about it from that concept of okay 500 years ago that's changed a lot that's 500 years right and so what their ideal   cost of living and what cost of living and like what good living meant is so different to it. So now,   dude in 50 years, what living is, is going to change our economy dramatically again and again, then goes well,   the amount of cost that's needed to have an ideal living you know 100 years ago is probably ridiculously low than what it is today is it going to be similar that in 50 years from now you can have the cost of living to you know the things that you think are like a dream and it just   relatively is very cheap, it's very common, it's very efficient,   will you know will your cost will your idea of what living is to your optimal ways   just keep shifting and shifting and shifting and shifting the goalpost based on the fact that there's availability   or will you have the ability to go you know what no like this is my   I'm drawing a line in the sand like I'm happy yes you could   be being risky and having more wins   but you recognize that actually this is now my enough and everything else after this is bonus and in fact, I'm just gonna go super risk averse. And that means x, y, zed.  



[00:30:10] Juan Granados:

Yeah, probably.   Once again, the, you know, the starting point self reflection, what am I like, okay, I'm naturally   like, pessimistic   emerge, you know, I hate, hate people.   Yeah, let's just say like, this is your general mindset.   And then and then you go, okay, fuck, there's all this positivity around one saying, you know, GDP is increasing   year after year, this sort of stuff, you can still use that to your advantage.   I'm trying to think of the   the black swan by a scene Nicholas Taleb.   I can't remember if he ever used that in a sense of a positive way, as in there's going to be black swans, which are for the upside   He's more noted for the black swan being a negative event, which you want to have, you know, with a small amount of exposure to in the   in the event that something really bad happens, you can profit very greatly from that's that's more what I've remembered from him. I'm not sure if he ever used it in the black swan in a positive way, as in you a very, very unlikely positive event that could happen.  

An example of this would be a Satoshi Nakamoto once wrote something along   the lines of it's worth having just a little bit of Bitcoin just in case it takes off. You know, and this he wrote this, of course, and, you know, pre 2012. So,   yes, that was a good that was like a black swan in a good in a positive sense where it's like, oh, yeah, okay, you know, it takes almost zero risk to me to actually have a little thing here could could have a good sign. You know, this random thing that was so pop up when it was on LinkedIn, it was, if you'd bought $100 of Bitcoin,  

[00:31:49] Kyrin Down:

every time that the popular media like the media channels,   like the big players had said, Bitcoin is dead, you would have $99,970,000,000  

[00:32:00] Juan Granados:

Something like that.   Yeah,   for sure. So there's, there's definitely the sense where you can invest as well.   Even if you've got a negative mindset, maybe more like a prepper mindset,   a doom doomsday   mindset, pessimistic mindset,   you can still do that.   It's just gonna have to require a different alteration of how you go about it. So it's not like you're doomed if you're not a happy positive person from the from the get go. Now, there's still different ways. But once again, this starting with a bit of self reflection.   I wrote this one bit here, which is   we'll do this bit and then we'll get on to the boostograms   becoming mercenary.  

This is something I've   done a bit for myself recently. So definition for mercenary   primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.   You know, like damn Kyron, that's that's pretty fucked up, man. You're a bad person now.   I've had to become more mercenary   in these, particularly like last   2, 3 years.   Because   I don't know, it was this was also having a less   emotional connection to money. Not that I was ever really that emotional to it. But certainly saw in 2021,   when we're talking about NFTs and things like this, we're getting giddy was like, oh, oh my god, you know, it's gone up to   21.8. Now it's 45. If like, holy fuck, I'm sitting on $145.  



[00:33:25] Kyrin Down:

That's crazy. I could tell I could tell you exactly how much I was sitting on NFTs. Yeah, if you want to if you want to.   The, the mere mortal likes to know that because it's not, it's nothing close to that now, but it shows you that at that time I was very much holding it in the full expectation of holy man money goes up   like, yeah. Whereas, but actually just going like, you know what that's met and I like, I didn't think about it in that manner at all. I was just like, oh whatever. If it gets there, it gets there.   But yeah, it was, I noted April 22, 603,000   in NFTs.  

That is how much I had. That is nowhere near   that number anymore. But   if I wasn't thinking about it in April 22, I wasn't thinking about it from a perspective of with that like that's gonna meet x y z at that point. I didn't need that cash flow. Cash flow was totally fine.  

[00:34:13] Juan Granados:

Changes changes the dynamic of where you're at. So a mind shift for me that has occurred in the past 3 years is I guess,   having a bit of a partition from my idealism,   which I certainly do have in me.   And then   kind of divorcing that from my actions a little bit.   So   I think ethics still needs to be the starting point. You gotta go, okay, how do I want to make money? Do I want to rob people?   Do I want to, you know, scam people don't want to be a fraudster, that sort of shit.   But some people choose to do that. I guess I don't know if that's necessarily the starting point. Look at someone like Sam Bankman Fried. Was that his starting point?   Probably not. But then he, you know, found justifications of okay, now I'm using customer money because I need to do this and I'm eventually going to give it all away throughout effective altruism. And you're like, okay, well,   yeah, that's that's good at all saying that but you know,   you ended up losing all of it. So how fuck are you going to do that stupid cunt?  

But, so   spend the time on your ethics, figure out what's meaningful to you. Hopefully, you go, okay, I'd rather   be for the betterment of humanity. I'd rather invest in things which   are going to make humanity better.   So this is why I would never buy   anything related to   like a war war making of weapons, or   company related to that,   at least directly. There's always like some level of indirect connections. Yeah, it's like the 4th 4th degree, but you know, at least tighten it to the first degree, you're not doing that.   But I cannot spend all my time listening to BTC   and V for V podcasts,   and spending all of my energy on that, even though I think those are some of the most important things I've ever come across.  

I simply cannot spend all of my time on that. And my, even though it's very idealistic.   I need I need to do some other things because   I'll grind myself into oblivion, essentially.   And so to do better,   I need to spend time with myself, help others in my life and honestly   make money and things I don't particularly   believe in.   But   it's with the the kind of   the end goal, I guess, or, you know, divorcing   the ethics from actually how I make money. Now, once again, I don't want it to be in a bad way, but   in a neutral way, where it's not like the most idealistic thing. I'm,   it's that emotional control again, because with idealism comes like the the giddiness.  

I used to have sleepless nights thinking about value for value when I first came across   Bitcoin and being able to use it on the Lightning Network for podcasts, like,   that was the biggest shit in my mind, I thought this is gonna change the world like this is, this is the thing.   And if I had spent all of my time,   and money and energy on   creating a lightning node,   putting all my liquidity into it, trying to   improve that make it better.   You know, sure, there might be some sort of business model there, but   it would probably end up me having to create a business,   fucking managing people.  

All this sort of stuff, which I don't want to do. And honestly,   ethically, I'll be a shit manager. And I'm putting it out there. I'm not going to be the best boss. So   the world would be a worse off place if I followed that idealism. Okay.  

[00:37:47] Kyrin Down:

Yeah. Yeah. You have to have  

[00:37:49] Juan Granados:

that that clarity of mind as well when it comes to all this. Yeah, the main main thing, you know, divorcing the the emotions from,   from what you're investing in, if you're just chucking money into the latest   startup related to,   I don't know, you know, beyond meat, you know, ethical veganism   or   go save the planet by this   revolutionary   new technology of   extracting   and water from plants to, you know, or solar power,   and   you're not, you're not being, I guess, a bit more careful and critical with it, and allowing that idealism to take you away.   You're gonna make some bad decisions.  



[00:38:32] Kyrin Down:

Yeah, yeah, more  

[00:38:33] Juan Granados:

emotionally influenced probably not a state you want to be when it comes to something like investing. That's the reality of it. Unless you're investing in the mere mortals as we're going to talk about now in the boostagram. That's that's the right place. You want the giddiness. Correct. And if you feel undepressed, it's probably because you haven't invested in us and sent through a boost to gram. So for those who don't know at home, boost to gram is when you send in some support directly to the show via the monetary means   using a podcasting app such as   Fountain   Podcasting 2.08   app, fountain, true fans, podcast guru,   pod verse, cast o matic, a whole bunch of them go to our website, meremodelspodcast.com/support.  

And we'd like to call out these people who have   sent in the money to us and   they usually attach a message as well. So Correct. What do we got? I think we had 2 for this week.  

[00:39:22] Kyrin Down:

One because the other one came through live.  

[00:39:25] Juan Granados:

No. So we didn't read out that one. So read out the last live one because Oh, okay. Cool. You okay. Cool.  

[00:39:31] Kyrin Down:

So that one was from chat F and 1111   sat sent using Podverse. And he said, I've got albhi hub setting set up on my own lightning node and I'm going down with the ship. Yeah. So one thing I forgot to mention last week was the  

[00:39:44] Juan Granados:

as a listener, you also have the ability to   get   a lightning node and use Alby hub or even just your own lightning node, or whatever mechanism   and be able to join that up to these apps, because you can use ALBII as an kind of extension through that. So that that's not going away. It certainly requires a lot more steps, and a lot more effort. It will become easier. Yeah. So if you if you've always thought like, I just want to use this or I want to send some support into the mere mortals,   go to Fountain. That'll be the easiest for the.  

[00:40:19] Kyrin Down:

But then in saying that we got Gene Everett sending through 333   sets using Fountain because   Personally, I can't stand fountain since the nonster switch   lost all following and half the accounts I managed to rediscover. I can't boost.  

[00:40:33] Juan Granados:

Bummer. Yeah, that's a shame. I also had a big following on fountain.   I was rather influential on there for   a very small period of time.   I haven't used any of the Nostra stuff. There's there's so many you could use Firecast, which is more of an Ethereum based one. Nostra is more of a Bitcoin one.   Sure. There's going to be a Solana one and another one. There's blue sky. If you're into, like, left wing politics as Mastodon, which I do have, but I don't really use.   Yeah,   there's a lot there's a lot of social media platforms out there now.  

[00:41:10] Kyrin Down:

And very niche ones, actually, which is, I don't know, maybe it's a good thing. Yeah, I'll say I'm not sure I'm not sure if it's a good thing. I don't know if it creates more problems in trying to split like the demand   is split, but then the demand of putting it into a particular place. It's more aligned to maybe the people that you want to reach. I don't know. Have you heard of polish? Have you heard of this one? It's on a far caster. So the Ethereum one, and basically  

[00:41:34] Juan Granados:

someone set up a bot where   you can   message this bot and I think you give it like a little, little bit of money   and   you essentially like send   a picture,   a name   and an amount.   And it will automatically   create the coin for you that you want from this. So it's kinda like pumped up fun. But an even easier one, you can just do it while drunk on   on Twitter slash Firecaster.   I think they might even have a Twitter integration. So you could do a similar thing there.   And yeah, essentially, you're just like,   just just create this thing for me, bro. And type it in and it'll it'll create a meme coin for you. Wow.   Or, or maybe a revolutionary coin that's going to change the world. All might have say. Yeah, exactly. That's crazy. So yeah, there's, there's certainly a lot more functionality, you can do a lot of different things on these apps, especially when they're integrated with   a cryptocurrency,   which allows you to take actions and, you know, send money back and forth or activate this bot, which will do this thing. So I can see that I can see why there   that'd be a lot more fun and interesting in certain cases.  

Have I tried them out? No. Ain't nobody got time for that. And I   I'm not a big social media guy, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, probably not.   But yeah, thank you. Thank you, Chad F and Jean for your support. Very much appreciate it. Very much.   Now what's the second part? So second one was on paradox. And I had 2 two things here, which   were time and reflection.   And so   for the time, I think I only fully understood   risk adjusted return recently, which is absolutely insane.   So you'd have heard of this before one, could you try and explain it to someone at home? And  

[00:43:24] Kyrin Down:

I would be the exact because I kind of came up with my own like, risk adjusted return. Tell me tell me your version. My Well, what did I call it?   This is like return on investment with risk included something to that like Rory or something like that. But basically it was like what's my like what's the return on the investment   but then multiplied by a risk factor to give me well if you know there's a probability of this working   20% of the time but the value that I actually get is this much amount well is that better than 80 certainty of getting something with the return of the investment being half? You know, something to that effect.  

[00:43:57] Juan Granados:

Yeah, sure. So with investing I think a lot of it is also   another   phrase for it would be   you're a good investor is one who can predict the future,   essentially,   relatively accurately. And so risk is also just another word for probability. What's the probability of a certain action occurring?   Whether it's good, whether it's bad, doesn't you can make money off both of those.   And so   I can't believe this took me so long till I really understood this, which is   risk adjusted return is essentially   let's say you've got $1,000 And you're like, Okay, I'm going to put $1   into   this super risky thing, I'm going to put $10 into this pretty risky thing, I'm going to put $100 into this super other risky thing. And   right, you're gonna start off with 1111.  

And I'm going to put $1,000   into   something that I think is pretty safe.   If you've done your calculations, right,   and you   and your ability to predict the future, right,   you should actually end up with after a certain time period,   all of those investments   being worth the same thing. That's that's like the best risk adjusted return   that you can do. The thing that was worth $1   went up   more than a 1000x.   This other one went up, you know,   800 and something x the   $10 one, etc, etc. So at a certain point in time, everything should be equal. Now, of course, the world doesn't work like that. Everything's not going to be equal at the same amount of time. But that's essentially   how the   it's almost like the the barbell strategy   that once talked about before and people have talked about investing, which is you've got something which is really, really safe   for,   you know, and I saw this cool graph the other day, which was like, people in the past, it would be so for boomers, it was   bonds. And then on the other side of the side of the barbell, the really risky thing would be stocks.  

You   take someone perhaps from our generation, maybe a little bit higher than us. So what are we with gen gen y,   also known as millennials, I believe they're changing the fucking names.   Gen Y or Gen X, which was above us, it would be having some stocks and then maybe BTC as your as your really risky one.   The people like my brother, you know, the   what are they called? They're not millennials, the NZ NZ.   They would have maybe Bitcoin as their really safe one, and then meme coins as their really risky one. And so you can see how it changes. What about the Gen Alpha Where do you  

[00:46:44] Kyrin Down:

find out what's the riskier?   I  

[00:46:47] Juan Granados:

have no idea. But   casino.   Yeah, I just have this click in moment where   everything   where that just really made sense to me. And I go, Oh, okay. I get this now. And yeah, sure. You can maybe have some   weight in the middle   of those barbells. If you're the   the boomer who has   changed their mind, they're a bit more with the times perhaps. So they've got their bonds, and they've got the stocks in the middle. And then BTC is the really risky one. Yeah, I guess that could change over time.   But   I think the trick to be able to envision the far off distant position you want to be in,   You have to kind of work back   to to get there from where you are. It's really hard to say. It's like being schizophrenic   is generally viewed   as a bad thing. But honestly,   being able to hold like 2 opposing, perhaps contrasting   is a better word ideas at the same time is pretty powerful. So   having been able to see like, okay, this is where I'm at now, this is where I want to be in the future. You know,   I predict this is going to happen, but this could not happen at the same time.  

Probabilities are like that you have to imagine both things,   both outcomes being able to happen.   And then just deciding like, which is the weight visit? Is it more on this one? Is it more on this one? And, you know, for some of them, it's like, it's obviously going to happen, you know, the sun's gonna rise tomorrow, but it also might not, you know, because there's   a very small possibility   an asteroid will will hit you or your, you know, I guess in a certain case, if you die right now, the sun's not going to rise tomorrow for you. So   there's there's certainly   not advocating for schizophrenia here. Not sure anyone's ever done that ever. But there is something to that ability of being able to, like,   look into the future and and being able to to hold 2 opposing things and and be able to weight them correctly. Yeah. I guess I I probably,  

[00:48:41] Kyrin Down:

same same, similar, but maybe   in a different way and it, I guess connects with   the moving away from being emotional to being more rational logical with your investing.   The clearer you can be about risk slash probability   factors   in your investments, the better you're going to be if you can really objectively look at something. So, as you mentioned, if you can, if it was 2012   and you were looking at Bitcoin,   your probability of risk measures for that in terms of its success because it's so unknown, you kind of go no idea so then adjust what you can put into it with a full expectation that you might lose it all. You know, again, what's the probability of losing all? What's the probability   of making 10x, 100x, 1000x, whatever? Right? And you can make that statement.  

Fast forward to now 2020, end of 2024,   you might look at the probability of Bitcoin being a   great,   store of, you know, just   cash, asset general store of value,   its ability to go up or down, right? Again, those probability factors change, differ. I think it's the more objective,   the more rational, the more logically you can look and really assess what the probability looks like, the better. I made a,   I think I was talking about in the previous podcast, but looking at a particular business plan of an idea that came up, I'd probably say that in my mind   there was a 40% chance of it working   with, you know, a certain amount of money that needed to be invested and time to create it. Once I actually did my like due diligence of thinking about it and putting it down on paper,   the amount you'd actually need doubled up. The time frame was much longer. The investment of time, my own time was much more than I thought and the return wasn't even that great. So, then it actually changes both the amount of turn that could be expected and the risk that was inherent to it and all of a sudden it went from, well that could be an idea to,   no way, like that amount of money or that amount of energy could be spent in multiple other locations to do way more things. So, you need to be objective and if I'm let just emotionally that moment in time when an idea pops up and I really want to dive into it could have been you know a terrible thing to begin but looking at it objectively   holding   led by I think it's okay to be led by emotion or a gut feel   and then you're really really ruthless with getting objective and getting the numbers down as people say like being decisive around   Yes, but what does it actually look like very precise in the numbers if things were to work out or not work out to be able to put a plan together.  

Often like, you know, a business plan when it comes to businesses in general,   They don't necessarily   are all perfect, you know, I've seen business plans like Airbnb and a few others.   Some of them don't work out exactly how they or they change the mode of how they earn the income. That's fine. You've got to put a time in place, but it can't be so unbelievably   off that you know you go, you know my plan for investing,   I'm gonna put, I'm gonna sell my house and buy a husky. And so, I'll just live on the streets and I predict based on the chatter, 3 years, Hosky will go up and I'll sell it. Like man, that's a heavy risk. That's a heavy heavy risk. If you're   trying to like maneuver that, I don't even know if you could move the numbers in such a way that the risk about the risk of that would actually be   other forms of investing that you might be able to do. Yeah. Yes, it's like a point 0.01%   probability   that it'll be even better but   you got to look objectively like would you take that if you ran the simulation   1,000 times over? Probably not, which is very hard. Because  

[00:52:12] Juan Granados:

for me, objectivity and probability,   almost a polar opposites.   I've always   struggled with,   I'm pretty good at math   and science that that was certainly the   my easy, easy thing. I didn't have to study too hard. And then I'd get good grades and stuff. But probability was always one thing that just messed me up. I really, really struggled with that. And I'd say probably even to this day, it's   certainly the weakest point that I've had in any math related things.   And   how can we be objective about,   you know, a future scenario of, of is this going to happen? Or is this going to happen?   A classic example, on your your weather app,   a lot of times   you'll see   the probability I can bring it up right now.  

And   I always used to think, oh, this is the probability   that it's going to rain. So at the moment, so 67%   chance.   And I always just assume, okay, there's a 67%   chance it's going to rain of some sort. That's not what that thing actually means. It means   it's going to rain and probably 67%   of the area of this general   gap that we're in right now is going to get rainfall.   That's, which is completely different. That's a completely different thing.   And so learning about what the probability of what you're actually measuring is,   it's very hard. I can, I can understand why almost everyone has lost money in some sort of venture and thing before? Something, I mean, something similar to that. I would get, so we talked about psychology of investing and  

[00:53:50] Kyrin Down:

I guess more you're talking paradoxes but also part of the maths. I think if you're wanting to become better at investing, I think you also have a pretty good at   probability and mathematics and numbers just in general just getting acquainted with that because it's very easy to, you know, Elon Musk walks into a meeting of 10 people.   Everyone's a bill on average. Everyone's a billionaire in the meeting. Okay. That's the average because he's got so much money. Yeah, that's probably true. But individually with just him, right? Because he's worth 200. Okay. Yeah,   I thought you cause he would only be associating with billions. No, no, no, no. So, then you go okay well everyone there's been it's like that conversation of well just because there's one person has outsized results   doesn't mean that probabilistically   if you were to jump into that particular area are you going to achieve it? You know, if it's if you're going to an event,   Bitcoin party and one person was there in 2011 and bought a whole host and everyone else has got   0.002 Bitcoin or something like that. It doesn't mean that everyone on average in that party is wealthy. There's one person with outsized results and everyone else kind of came in afterwards.  

In a similar thing with investing,   be very weary of   there's things like average but there's also like the very like so again the variation for something like probability like probability will have   give you a number that you can look at and that will be like, oh, there's the average or the percentage   but then when you maybe see the spread the deviation from the mean let's just say if the deviation from the mean is like gigantic   right from a curved or whatever distribution it is okay maybe you've got to be realistic and be like oh there's a lot of variance in that particular thing so it's not like it's a certainty that you're going to be that it's oh there's   3 people who are successful in investing in,   I don't know gigantic   short shorting currencies and you had there's some stories around some people shorting the New Zealand dollar and the UK pound and they made like a ridiculous amount of money. You're talking about Soros. Soros and a couple of other people who did that so like huge amount of money that they made.  

You might if I was to read that sorry I don't know exactly the maths of this but if I was to read that of from an investment perspective, I'd be like, shit! You can make a lot of money doing that like maybe I should look into it. I reckon that needs some like so many more who've just absolutely lost everything in doing a lot of those things.   But it's distributed on average, maybe towards a what looks better, because so many people have outsized results that you also got to be weary of when it comes into an investment perspective. Yeah, I, for me, I use a lot of the  

[00:56:20] Juan Granados:

because you got to, okay, I want to invest, where do I start? You know, and this is where it's really hard.   And where I tend to advocate, like, look at people who you admire,   who   you want to be in their position, or you want to get to a maybe perhaps a similar level to where they are something like that.   And what are the characteristics   of them rather than what they actually got into? You know, so for me, someone like Eric Voorhees,   he's, he's a very wealthy dude.   Lord knows how much, you know, there's pictures of him at a Bitcoin booth celebrating the first halving party. And, you know, it's him and like 4 other guys.   And this was that would have been what, 2012,   2013, something like that.  

He's he's the sort of person where it's like, okay, well, you know, he's he's so   focused on, I guess, like   the   libertarian ideals. And   every time that I hear him speak, it's almost like he's starting from this groundwork. And   I think that was what enabled him to recognize the opportunity that was Bitcoin, and then subsequently, Ethereum.   And then probably other things I don't know.   With him,   and other people like that.   There's   a investing is weird, because it's   you, like I said, you need to put all this upfront time and energy. And then I feel   you should do all of your work. And then you just do the final thing of actually buying whatever it is.  

And then maybe like a slight little bit of management checking in, you know, a year later.   With Bitcoin, for example, I   could not listen to another Bitcoin podcast for   10 12 years, and I would still feel pretty confident on of where it's at.   And, and that it would have some sort of return now how much it was,   that's up to like the whims of of the market. But   there's this thing with self reflection as well, which was,   you know, how do you realize that you're wrong on something? So, you know, you've made bad investments, I've made bad investments, we've lost capital.   One, I know he's had a couple which have gone to 0.  

Check out once again, check out the COVID times.   I've I've had, I think just one one thing that's gone to absolute 0.   So you kind of need to seek out information that actually proves that you're wrong as well. So you're like, okay, here's my probabilities.   And you're getting close to like, okay, I think this is a sure thing. This is this is a good idea. I'm going to invest in it.   I think there's a there's a worth of actually then once again becoming schizophrenic   going into the paradox and go on okay, but how like, let me look up every   Warren Buffett says bitcoins.  

Sorry, Charlie Munger was says bitcoins rat poison,   rat poison squared.   Holy shit. Like he's a really good investor.   Yes, he is. But you know, he's a really old guy. And he's   just not obviously spent any time with that at all. Other than just going, I don't like this thing.   So,   for example,   I recently sold the last of my stonks.   I'm officially all in on crypto. Donks. I got no more stonks,   which has allowed me to do a complete recap of my whole investing   history from starting from 2012   to now in 2024.   Yep.   It's not pretty man. It's not pretty.   I have   terrible at capital gain appreciation.  

I have more money   and took out more money in terms of the worth of the stocks   from putting them from putting it in. But   it was   it was a marginal percent it very, very little. And what saved me was actually just dividends, having dividends and cash flow coming in.   Should I have worked harder?   You know, I put a fair bit of time into reading financial reports   of companies don't like doing that. But I was doing that at the time.   Just trying to look at like secular trends, what is this going to thing? Okay, you know, blue chips versus   ship.  

Crazy risky ones. The one I lost everything on was a crazy risky Chinese magnesium Corporation. You want to look it up? You can't because it doesn't   exist.   It's like, I don't   it's one of those ones where it's like, I've put way more   time, energy and thought into Bitcoin. And that   certainly has been the most productive   use of time use of time for me because it's the thing that's gone up the most for myself   made me the most money out of anything.   And that was one where I was like, okay, I did put a whole bunch of time. So if you're really into uranium,   there's, it might be worth just going like, okay, I don't care about anything else. I'm just going to focus on uranium and just spend all my time on that. You're probably going to find a stock that'll do well. Yeah. And   there's one of those ones where it's like,   yeah, I think you need a bit of paradox.  

There is a lot of energy and investment into something that time wise  

[01:01:30] Kyrin Down:

before making the investment. And then you kind of got to just like, let it ride and do its thing. Yeah. And I think the final thing I was gonna say is, and then be prepared to either know when, you know, you need to either cash out or   let it just roll no matter where  

[01:01:45] Juan Granados:

the movement on it. I'm reading a book at the moment which is called Devil Take Behind Most, a History of Financial Speculation.   And so it's going over things like the tulip mania, the South Sea Bubble is where I'm at at the moment. And then there's going to be more stuff.   I can't remember if it was published before or after the   2000s   stock IC   Internet craze. But in any case, there's a whole bunch of other things through history.   So I'd check out that book review when that comes out in 3 weeks time, 4 weeks time, because that's going to have a lot about the   speculation side of of investing as well. And certainly of people getting caught up emotional wise with their with their money, which is probably like if there's one thing to take away from this is just   try to divorce   emotions.  

Unless you're,   you know, consciously doing it fun. I've got a couple of main coins at the moment and it's a whole bunch of fun.   I'm also   very, very cautious of not wanting to round trip like Wan did with his NFTs.   Sure. It went up to 600,000   He probably put in, I don't know, maybe tens of 1000. So, you know, it was it was good at the moment. It's back down to that tens of 1000, if maybe,   yeah, probably around that level. I don't know what you have.   He round trip that up and down.   It was a good investment for like,   what, 6 months.  

And then turned into being a very decidedly average.   Now,   it might be worth more in the future. That's probably why you still have some apps.   So,  

[01:03:22] Kyrin Down:

yeah, it's it timing is also very. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's if I'd really objectively looked at it, you know, the probability versus Valley probably went beyond what I thought. But if I had a, you know, like you've got a selling order and stuff like that Yeah. With some of these things Yeah. Would have worked out a whole lot better. Just didn't have a time as I was writing the the newness and everything that's happening and oh my gosh. I mean,   glad that I didn't go like a double down and get a couple of monkeys.  

[01:03:48] Juan Granados:

I know I met quite a few people at the V con recently, quite a few a couple people, at least one who was saying, okay, I met one   try being accurate with my words. I met one guy who told me how   know, he bought NFT, sold them, bought them. He basically did the round trip up and down like you did,   but had a whole bunch of capital gains   from that. And so he just got reamed tax wise, tax wise   and then had no   nothing to pay it off. Nothing to pay it off. Yeah.   So,  

[01:04:21] Kyrin Down:

yeah, that you got to be got to be careful that think about tax as well. People tax is pretty important. Yeah. That'll get in all this. Alright. My leave it there, it's the psychology of investing. Thank you very much for tuning in. Any live questions at all that we want to just put all up because again, we do these sessions live on the on the weekends. So if you do tune in live, feel free to jump in. You can ask the questions you can send through. Boost to grams as well. So you can send us through,   messages with some sats attached to them as well. We always enjoy getting them. We talked about their with Jean and we talked about their with chat app sending them through. Absolutely.  

Use all the various ones to the moment fountain, Podverse, all the various things that does support us majorly,   for us. Yep. We don't even I mean, we we don't even see that as investment at the moment. We see it more as the ability to then put back into the system. Yeah. It's been sitting there slash me boosting it back to other people. So Correct. I have no idea how much is in Europe. Your wallet No idea. Mind. No idea. I haven't I haven't We'll have to check that this this next month. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I have to get off Albie. But I think we'll leave it there. Me and Morin Alliance, thank you very much for tuning in. Next week we'll be doing   a battle focus.  

Oh, I'm sure we'll I'm sure there'll be various things that pops up. That'll be that'll be a meandering for sure. That will not be a meandering. Correct. That'll be a meandering, so stay tuned for that one.   That will leave it. The immortal lights. Be well. Bye now. Got it. Good.