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It's time for the male version of therapy .... podcasting!!!
In Episode #502 of 'Meanderings', Juan & I discuss: Lori Gottlieb’s book 'Maybe You Should Talk to Someone', the emotional burden therapists carry plus the mirror-like role they play in helping people surface what’s unsaid, my own brief stint with therapy as a late teen, why men seek therapy less, what they tend to talk about (anger, identity, intimacy, parenting), whether gym time/mates/modern tools like AI can substitute for a human therapist and how to decide when an external guide could reveal the real question behind the problem you’re trying to solve.
Huge thanks to Petar & The Late Bloomer Actor for the support, much appreciated!
Stan Link: https://stan.store/meremortals
Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:00:36) Book setup: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone (Lori Gottlieb)
(00:04:22) Is talk therapy an "easy job"?
(00:07:34) Personal histories with therapy
(00:13:37) When would you go?
(00:19:35) Male substitutes for therapy and why some need a neutral listener
(00:24:13) What therapists really offer: safe disclosure and third-party perspective
(00:31:03) Introspection vs understanding; overthinking and feeling understood
(00:35:05) Boostagram Lounge
(00:39:56) What Aussie men discuss in therapy
(00:47:15) Low affect: numbing vs regulation
(00:51:15) When does therapy end? Termination, success metrics and vagueness
(00:55:02) Therapy as a business, niches and the rise of AI/text-based care
(00:59:12) The value of a well-formed question and paid accountability
(01:03:11) Risks: authority, bad guidance and incentives
(01:06:54) Wrap-up: Meanderings as free therapy and support links
In Episode #502 of 'Meanderings', Juan & I discuss: Lori Gottlieb’s book 'Maybe You Should Talk to Someone', the emotional burden therapists carry plus the mirror-like role they play in helping people surface what’s unsaid, my own brief stint with therapy as a late teen, why men seek therapy less, what they tend to talk about (anger, identity, intimacy, parenting), whether gym time/mates/modern tools like AI can substitute for a human therapist and how to decide when an external guide could reveal the real question behind the problem you’re trying to solve.
Huge thanks to Petar & The Late Bloomer Actor for the support, much appreciated!
Stan Link: https://stan.store/meremortals
Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:00:36) Book setup: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone (Lori Gottlieb)
(00:04:22) Is talk therapy an "easy job"?
(00:07:34) Personal histories with therapy
(00:13:37) When would you go?
(00:19:35) Male substitutes for therapy and why some need a neutral listener
(00:24:13) What therapists really offer: safe disclosure and third-party perspective
(00:31:03) Introspection vs understanding; overthinking and feeling understood
(00:35:05) Boostagram Lounge
(00:39:56) What Aussie men discuss in therapy
(00:47:15) Low affect: numbing vs regulation
(00:51:15) When does therapy end? Termination, success metrics and vagueness
(00:55:02) Therapy as a business, niches and the rise of AI/text-based care
(00:59:12) The value of a well-formed question and paid accountability
(01:03:11) Risks: authority, bad guidance and incentives
(01:06:54) Wrap-up: Meanderings as free therapy and support links
Connect with Mere Mortals:
Website: https://www.meremortalspodcasts.com/
Discord: https://discord.gg/jjfq9eGReU
Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/meremortalspods
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meremortalspodcasts/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@meremortalspodcasts
Value 4 Value Support:
Boostagram: https://www.meremortalspodcasts.com/support
Paypal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/meremortalspodcast
[00:00:06]
Kyrin Down:
Oh. Mere Mortalites to another episode of the mere mortals meanderings, which is our usual weekly episode. Juan and I get together. Me being Kyrin here on the side. Juan on the side. On the November 23, we usually get together nine a. M. Australian Eastern Standard Time on a Sunday live. Come join us, if you will. And these episodes are where we chat about a particular topic, but we've changed the style to less structured, less prepared for the time going forward. As usual, in my kind of ones, I'm centering it around a book that I've been reading, and this one is Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb, a therapist, her therapist and our lives revealed.
So, this was just one of my random ones that I picked up, recently along the self help, type of lines, although I guess this isn't necessarily self help because you're involving another person with it. And I decided to just give it a try. And I guess my expectations coming in were like,
[00:01:13] Juan Granados:
Yeah, that's that's sort of how I look when I'm looking at the book. And that's exactly that's exactly what I would have thought.
[00:01:19] Kyrin Down:
And, to give you just a quick overview,
[00:01:23] Juan Granados:
pleasantly surprised, very pleasantly surprised. I guess it's I guess it's the case as well when you come in with that expectation, if you come in with the expectation. Much easier to then it's easy for it to surprise you. Yeah. And so I guess my,
[00:01:36] Kyrin Down:
type of initial reaction was just, it's not that I don't think therapy can help. It's not that, I don't think it is beneficial to people. It's just one of the ones where I was going what, I suppose it cleared up some misconceptions that I had about what actually goes on in there. And whilst I still have some reservations, particularly right towards the end of it, which I didn't think some things were explained. I think the style of the book was actually really helpful. So talks about Laurie and Sue, you know, changes in people's names and stuff to preserve anonymity, privacy.
But essentially, it's telling about her life as
[00:02:20] Juan Granados:
a psychiatrist
[00:02:21] Kyrin Down:
therapist therapist. Is there a difference between the two? Psychotherapist. Yeah. I'm not actually
[00:02:29] Juan Granados:
aware of what the difference would be. I think there is a difference between psychotherapists and
[00:02:34] Kyrin Down:
psychiatrists. I'll quickly I'll cook it up as you look through. Yeah. As I just give the overview. So she talks about, you know, she's a therapist, so she gets people coming in. She's got this and in particular is kind of like four or five stories in here. One is of a lady called, I won't even bother saying their names because they're not the real person, a lady who's dying and she's, you know, 30, 30 years old meant to get married, but turns out has cancer and is dying instead. There is a much older lady in her seventies who has basically like fucked up her children's lives, had three marriages, all disasters, came in suicidal saying like, I've got literally nothing to live for, no friends.
And if I can't improve it in the next year, then I'm going to kill myself. A very angry, studio executive or writer for like a TV hit series in Hollywood and who's had some very traumatic things happen to him where, you know, got into a car accident and his young son died at the time. He's having troubles communicating with his wife. And I think those were the main three. And then she herself goes to see a therapist because of things happening in her life, notably a breakup with the boyfriend. But then it turns out like, okay, it was actually a whole lot more going on than behind just that. So it was good because it presented the point of view from both sides of the of of the being the patient and then also being the therapist. The therapist on as well. Which I thought was helpful. And psychiatrists can prescribe medicine, and a psychotherapist cannot. Okay. So they do different types of therapies that they're allowed to mediate. Yeah, there you go. So this one's all about talk therapy, I guess. So talking it out. Yep. Yep. She doesn't mention the I think she had one offer. What an easy job.
[00:04:29] Juan Granados:
What an easy job at the face of it. I'm like, what what do you think they do? Actually. This isn't this is is where it's like the initial of, oh, sounds like an easy job. You're just letting people talk. And what I envision in my mind is you're sitting, you get someone comes in, they're angry, they're sad, they insert whatever. And you just lend a helping ear. And you just kind of ask, how does that make you feel? What does that mean about it? Is that really true? So at face value, I'm going, Wow, what an easy job. In fact, if you kind of describe this to me when I was like, fourteen fifty nine, maybe I was too young, maybe 16 17, when I kind of knew that I didn't enjoy talking or listening or like being around humans. That definition, I would have gone up, man, easy. I'd do that. Like, I'll just do that all day. But then the burden, nothing comes in the back. Okay, sure. There are particular details in the style of questioning that you might go down one path with someone versus another. But I think the detrimental slash hard thing is the equivalency of being a nurse or being a, paramedic is that you have to deal with traumatic crappy situations all the time that you have to, as much as you can, sure, you kind of like separate yourself from the story, but you're going to get dragged into some of these at some point and go like, Oh man, that was so heavy. So what I assume it is, is just you sit in front of another person. You have a lot of com you the patient will describe and follows the lead of the therapist in leading them through to get to some eventuality at the end of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's
[00:06:03] Kyrin Down:
reasonably close. I guess she talks about some of the more intricate points of what they are trying to do, which is essentially being a mirror or reflection. Because people go in there looking for advice. And it's like, you know, that people come in with a problem and they're looking for a solution, but that's not necessarily what the therapist is there to provide. It's meant to be okay, here's you know, we've all got problems in our lives. Why is yours so I guess like difficult that you. You can't process yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So and there's a whole lot intricacies of, you know, trying to figure out what's going on behind the words, what isn't being said.
A lot of times I think two of the characters in her book, sorry, one of the characters, the real angry guy, he doesn't reveal that he his son died in an accident until like months into their sessions. And so, you know, he's thinking or well, she's thinking, oh, like he's just having problems communicating with his wife or something like that. Or he's just stressed out at work and he can't sleep. I think that's the reason he says he joins. But yeah, turns out like, oh, no, he's got like all of this baggage that he's just not talking about and obviously still in his mind but isn't revealing to her. And that takes a long time. So yeah, there's many roles they play,
[00:07:34] Juan Granados:
I suppose. Like just going from a start starting point. Have you ever been to a therapist or? Not not to like I've never like, you know, when the when again what I'm envisioning is you go to a therapist, you like sit down, you have a conversation specifically as like a therapeutic environment. No. Okay.
[00:07:51] Kyrin Down:
Do you know any therapists either? Is another question. I kind of think I do. Yeah, I don't know any off the top of my head. But I have been to therapy once. Well, eight times, actually. Eight times. But it was like. It was one bout. Yeah. And so this was actually I don't know if I've ever talked about this before. Maybe. So when I was, let's say, 17, maybe it was 18. No, it was it would have been like older than drinking age because I could go to bars. So I'm gonna say 18 or 19. Probably 18. I had, was going up to my next door neighbor's house one evening because he invited me for his like a mini birthday celebration sort of deal. It was probably going to be like seven people in his little fucking basement dungeon type area.
Was actually on my way to walk up and I was going to do the shortcuts shortcut across our house. Spiderweb right in the face. Boom.
[00:08:54] Juan Granados:
Oh, spiderweb. Yep.
[00:08:56] Kyrin Down:
Yeah. Get that shit out of my face. I'm pretty sure I remember walking down the driveway and then you'd know this one. The the driveway up to his house daunting. It was huge. Yep. Big, long, steep driveway. I went down at once on a skateboard with you know, sitting on the skateboard with some thongs. Fucking wrecked my thongs. They just disintegrated.
[00:09:18] Juan Granados:
That's how much friction was generated from this. Using them as brakes. So
[00:09:23] Kyrin Down:
I think I remember looking up at it and like hearing the noise of like, celeb, you know, lab people music and stuff. And just going, I don't want to go up there. Like, I don't want to go. And so I kind of went and I sat in the garage and I was just sitting there and just kind of ruminating. And this was kind of like peak social anxiety times for me. I'd say high school wasn't particularly fun, but then getting out into the real world in essence where you're not forced to be places was it made it even more highlighting of just how anxious I was.
And, my dad ended up like just walking out and then like seeing like, oh, my son's just sitting in the middle of the garage, like what? Ruminating.
[00:10:10] Juan Granados:
Yeah.
[00:10:12] Kyrin Down:
And I had a bit of like a mental breakdown essentially. It's just like crying a lot, being like, I'm not happy, blah, blah, blah. And so that took me out. We actually went to like McDonald's car park, I think, because my mom had just came home. So I was like, all right, this is more like one on one time. And he eventually suggested like, hey, like, this isn't a normal reaction. Would you be willing to go to a therapist? No. You're like, I said, yes. Okay. Yeah. So I ended up going to this guy for I think it was eight sessions and, I got, I would say, zero out of it.
Zero. And the reason was I knew what my problem was. I also knew how to solve it, which was I was anxiously afraid and of talking to basically everyone, but especially girls. And I knew how to solve it, which was to go out and start a project and, and do it. And he, I guess was, I feel like I was that person who was holding back things like I didn't reveal my inner life to this random dude. Yeah. And, you know, he'd give me some like techniques and things to perhaps work on. It's kind of like the Jordan Pearson type thing. It's like, well, what can you manage? Can you manage to go out into a shopping center on your own? Okay, can you manage to go out to like a movie? Can you go out in the night? Yeah, environment on your own? Yeah, like stepping up the
[00:11:51] Juan Granados:
like the phasing of the fear. Yeah, like slowly and surely. Yeah. Could you go up to someone
[00:11:57] Kyrin Down:
in unannounced in a bar? No. Could you say hi to the bartender? Yes. Okay, well, that's what you do. So it give me kind of like these tasks and things to try and do. So I think it was actually not exactly like this one, which he was giving me more directions and stuff, whereas she's more
[00:12:18] Juan Granados:
Letting them come up with the next step or the action. Yeah, yeah. Something like that.
[00:12:23] Kyrin Down:
And so even though I saw this guy a bunch of times and I kind of said I was doing the things, I was only like half assed doing them to the point where, like, I wasn't really doing it. I was wasting his time. I was wasting my time. I was wasting my dad's money. It was kind of just like, I think we'd also just booked in a eight week session. Maybe it was even four. Honestly, I can't remember so long ago and doing all of that made me go, I think that was why I had that reaction, which was like, that was pointless. That didn't help me at all.
Mostly because I didn't help myself by doing what you meant to be doing in that. And I think that was probably also the reason why most people would go to a therapist voluntarily. Maybe I shouldn't even say that. I'm not even sure like how many people are mandated to go to one because of a prison sentence sort of thing. Like, you know, doing therapy as part of your rehabilitation.
[00:13:26] Juan Granados:
There'd be plenty and other examples. I'm sure. Yeah, you have to kind of let go. In this case, the people in this book were going to voluntarily
[00:13:34] Kyrin Down:
and and so I wasn't getting anything out of it, essentially. So that was my reaction to to doing it. I guess a question for you. So it's not just me monologuing. What do you think would ever be a trigger point for you where you would think about maybe going to a therapist?
[00:13:55] Juan Granados:
Maybe if it was something where and see this is it's so odd, really, because what immediately came to our mind, and then the next thought kind of like even negated it. So I almost about say nothing. But why you would in a world fifteen years ago is like very different to a world of today in that I would I would think about going when it's something where I have no real information about nor the ability to learn from. So I mean, based on what you're saying as well, I can only think you're only going to get the outcome or whatever achievement you're trying to get from it if you do talk about it to its fullest extent. So let's just say, something occurred however much ago and I'm angry now. I'm like really angry. And I didn't know how to dislocate away from that back into my my normal patterns.
There I can imagine on the fact of, okay, maybe I need to go and have a conversation with someone specifically or maybe it's other people are telling you that to go and have this conversation. And so that might have been my answer ten years ago. So if like something equivalent to that happens and you're really not able to do that from yourself, okay, I can see the need potentially for that. The problem I see with that now is that it is so abundantly easy to find information now on, hey, if you have this problem, this is what you can do. And I'm just talking not not a just not just AI. It can just be any other format. I think we talked about this, on the discord around like, you know, AI is probably gonna chew up most of psychotherapies and well, it won't be able to give you drugs as a psychiatrist would. Yeah. But a psychotherapist might you know, that that part of the technology AI landscape might take that. The the Yeah, the problem I stumble upon is, at least the way I see it, I might if I was frustrated and mad for a couple of weeks, and then someone pointed it out, like, oh, you've been more so than that.
My first recourse isn't gonna go, okay, I'm probably gonna talk to a psychotherapist. I'm probably gonna be like, I'm gonna use my technique, technological technological AI psychotherapist. Let me just feed all these things into it and see what it says. And honestly, that would probably make me feel a little bit more fulfilled slash help me take the next steps as opposed to going seeing one. But that's my, like, time is like, I honestly like right now, if what would have to happen, it would have to be something that came up that I couldn't immediately like or take any action on that people are advising me from external.
And I don't think the technology is gonna help me find out the answer. It'd have to be and and I don't really know what that would be.
[00:16:35] Kyrin Down:
Yeah. For myself, the go back to the part. I've got a friend goes to therapy and they recommend everyone should and my trigger word should go to therapy. The person that's going to it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They go to it. And so this is one of those times where it's like, okay, there's someone who believes everyone should go to this thing. Why? Why? Why do they believe that? And I think it's probably because for them, they've found it very beneficial, but they've also had a much harder life. Well, who's to say who's hard? And that's one of the things in the book she talks about where it's like comparison in this case is also unhelpful. Someone who's dying and has a lot of reason to be very unhappy, sad, hardness, suffering in their life.
It might not even be that bad compared to someone whose boyfriend broke up with her and she that other person is going feels like they're going through much more, feels like they're suffering more, even though like if you're trying to compare the two, you'd say like, oh, well, the dying person is probably probably worse. Yeah. Yeah. And so, this yeah. That was another well, when I hear, like, I should do something, it's like, nah, fuck you. Yeah. That's a bit that's a bit I've never heard someone say nobody should go to a therapist. True. So
[00:18:07] Juan Granados:
Well, it's more the underlying side. I think they get hidden behind it. Right? So when they say it's like if someone was to say, I get as well, but they are, well, people should go to therapy. I'm like, go more fundamentally. Like, what what is the reason they're saying that you should go to therapy? And then and then the answer sounds like it might be, all because you can, even if through the good times or the bad times, you can make sure that you're, retrospecting and having a conversation about how to improve yourself. Okay. So remove the word therapy out of it. That, that baseline foundational stuff of like, okay, well you should make sure that you're talking and retrospecting and being becoming a better person, right? Whatever that means to you, whatever you value.
That's the bit that I'm like, absolutely fully supportive of that. But you can do that through therapy, like in a sense of conversation with someone, you can do that by a whole host of other meaningful ways. Like for us, I guess it's fitness, I guess I would say, like a big part of what would be becoming better or having a, you know, feeling more calmer from a day perspective would be just the fitness or training that we do. So the you know, you could say like that's and you hear it. People like, oh, my therapy is gym or my therapy is running or my therapy is dancing. Right? And so I think thinking about it like, oh, therapy of like going to a particular person, like is explained probably in this book or maybe how that person was seeing it. Like, yes, I agree.
[00:19:31] Kyrin Down:
But there are a whole load of other ways that you can therapeutically help yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think we'll talk more about that stuff from kind of after the boostgram lounge. The reason they say that I would probably say is that probably don't have anyone else in their life where they can fully be themselves in a certain extent, which is, you know, whether that's because they don't feel understood from people like myself, which is possible or they're afraid to always share themselves. You know, that's that's a hard, hard question to answer. But after reading this, I was going like, you know what? There there would be a way where I would consider it.
And she actually talks in the book about how there's like, I struggle to find it right in the moment, the kind of little stages of making a decision or a change, which is, there's like just the very brief, like, preconception of something which you would have thought impossible before, perhaps for yourself would be like, zero reason why you go therapy. And this is how I would have said myself before reading this. And then at some point in the book, I was like, Oh, you know what? I would go if I had a problem, which I was giving my all to solve, and I couldn't solve it.
And despite like, my best, like my best ways to do it. Yep. Plus, communicating this with other people and their suggestions, implementing them. And if it was still kind of unsolvable, then I'd probably go like, alright, maybe it's I'm not the problem is not the the sorry, the solution is not the actually the answer. The problem is the problem. I'm getting the problem wrong. Yep. And I could say for myself right now, so it's like, the biggest problem if I was therapy right now, it would probably be talking about the difficulties of finding a partner, that would probably be the big one. If over this next year, I'd make zero progress on that. And I go, Alright, I've tried doing everything that I can implementing, like, all the solutions that I feel like I should be able to do that. Maybe it's not actually finding a partner that is the problem. Maybe it's, you know, I'm, I'm lacking a deeper meaning in life, maybe it's XYZ thing. And this is where talking with someone could actually help reveal what that actual thing is, which I'm not particularly cognizant of myself. And that's that's where I go, okay, that that's where a benefit could be provided to by an external force. And then, yeah, we can talk perhaps afterwards of of whether, you know, AI could do this better or if a, you know, gym or a other type of way of doing that. I made a joke in the initial line of we're engaging in the male version of therapy, a. K. A. Podcasting.
And I see I see Colin in the chat says the male version of therapy is either I got to move forward either loading yourself working out, I'm sorry, isolating yourself working out intensely getting blasted drunk with friends or a combination of all three. And that's, there's a certain truth to that in that the reason that people engage in self destructive behavior is it's actually helping them in a way.
[00:23:15] Juan Granados:
Yeah. Like the thing I was gonna say, so like as he was talking about the, you know, say you go for a year, say that nothing comes about from a relationship perspective, not even close. And and then you go, okay, well, that might be a point of how the conversation with with someone around it just to kind of understand or go like to a more fundamental level if it is a fundamental level. And I guess this is my, like, I don't want to push against the idea of like a therapist because I'm sure that a therapist in and itself, the job that they like, the the value they provide to people, there's definitely good value out there for it.
But but there's, I guess, a small buts, not a big but. I'm trying to go, what is the fundamental thing that a therapist helps to do for somebody else? And I still kind of go, they help you to understand at a really basic level, either your intents or your purposes or the reason why you have certain things that you might be trying to achieve that you can't see yourself. Or even why you behave in certain ways. And and often it's because it is a third person, non close to you, that you can also open up and share because it's one, kind of confidential. Two, they don't really know you. So if you bash the dog or you killed your kid driving or something else, it's it's kind of a confident you can tell that maybe you haven't told of anybody else. Take the example of Tim Ferriss. He was on Steven Bartlett and other someone else's podcast just recently. And, you know, he was again sharing how he almost committed suicide. And, even before that, when he was, sexually molested by his, was it the Family friend or something. Family friend's son, basically. He only ever shared it with one of his ex girlfriends and somebody else. No one else knew about it. And he'd never, never talked about it until he was talking to one of his, like an psychotherapist, basically. And she shared with him about how she had been molested when she was younger in a much worse way. Tim then shared that, that what happened to him with her. And eventually some he met someone out and about who basically was like, oh, you know, you write it. Story was he took four two two of the four hour work weeks. It was like a signing. Tim was signing it. This guy came up to him, and he was like, oh, can you do it for me and my brother? And Tim asked him, you know, what, what do you want me to write here for your brother? And the guy froze.
Be weird. So he was like, oh, look. Tim said to him, come back a little bit later. I'll sign it for you. The guy came back later and said to him, hey, my brother committed suicide, but we've kept his room all the same. And he really, really, like, loved what you've talked about. And I wish more people were talking about it. And that's kind of when the penny hit for him. I was like, all right, maybe I should share this particular bit of my story and share it and whatnot. And so like aspects of that where I go like, okay, say for him, he didn't, he kept it quiet and maybe it was, it was affecting him in some ways, but he was still a productive member or human and it didn't sound like in his circumstance, he went to a therapist or maybe he did, I don't know, but didn't sound like he went to a therapist continuously to improve whatever happened. It ended up being the just pure sharing what happened to him. And while it was hard and having conversations about it, it was the he made, he had conversations, he exposed it to the world and then things kind of came out from underneath that. So part of me goes, if in a year's time, you for yourself, that's not working.
I still gotta go, which is the but bit. It's like, Yeah, but what you're going to get off from it is this kind of more open, honest conversation where you're trying to explore, you know, maybe fundamental reasons as to why it's all working. But I see everyone has a potential, whether it was using technology or just a more pure sense of finding the time and space to be realistic with themselves and looking inwardly to kind of figure out, okay, well, what are those things? Because you know within yourself and all that therapy is doing, which again, getting back to it is helping to expose all of those various things that you already know is just difficult to either come out from you individually or you haven't spent enough time doing it. But the value and I see it, the value is it's almost like speed running it. You know, they, they generally know they've seen if someone's got the problem of say, suicide. The example was Tony Robbins is a famous video of Tony Robbins of a guy with red shoes that looks a little bit like dopey. And he's at his, you know, big event of the pelotonous. I mean, it's like I haven't. You haven't seen it. So for those who haven't, you know, this guy, gets up on the microphone. He's gonna tell you he rubs a van and he basically goes like, I'm suicidal. Like, I'm gonna commit suicide at any point now.
And then so Tony kind of coming over to him and his Tony's talked about it in separate podcasts and conversations. It's for those particular individuals, it's about kind of take, you know, shifting the conversation, take them off the feet, make them focus on something else, show them laughter, show them anger, show them how dumb what they're saying is to get them into a different path. And so in this particular one, Tony kind of comes up to him. He's making a couple of jokes. The guy was wearing red shoes. So, you know, he asked him like, Hey, are you going to commit suicide because you're red, you're silly red shoes? And the guy's like, Wait, what? And he said, Yeah, pretty dumb shoes. And everyone laughs. He laughs. And then Tiger goes like, Oh, you know, you're laughing. You know, it'd be kind of a shame if you let that laugh go, you know, by killing yourself. And through it, it goes a bit longer than the conversation kind of, you know, he ends up like crying, they hug it out and you can tell the guy kind of gets gets past whatever was in his mind just to make sure that that is the exact opposite of therapy. Well,
[00:28:37] Kyrin Down:
Tony Robbins is the epitome of
[00:28:40] Juan Granados:
the anti therapist. I don't know if he's actually, he might be a qualified therapist. I actually see you, I'll look it up. No way, no way, man.
[00:28:50] Kyrin Down:
That's a 100% the opposite of therapy,
[00:28:53] Juan Granados:
what you just described. He is not. He is not. But it's like it's it's it's his and honestly, I haven't looked into it enough, but it was like, that's how he treats all toxic people and, you know, whether right or wrong, apparently has worked with a lot of people. Yeah. That's all that's what I'm saying is. That's definitely not. I think a lot of the therapy is getting you to understand what you already know or what you want to know, but generally comes from you as opposed to coming from them directly. Yeah,
[00:29:21] Kyrin Down:
I like kind of common theme of like, okay, don't
[00:29:25] Juan Granados:
just go back to that. So if to be sitting right now, if a year went by and you're like, my relationship, like relationships aren't working for whatever reason, I still kind of go sitting here right now I'd go, I don't know if you're gonna get any value from going to a therapist. Because I know that you're someone who can retrospect review, have a look at other things that you're gonna if you were sitting here tonight, you're like, if I externally could see you and be like, oh, you're not doing just doing the same thing or, oh, you're not improving in this aspect of live or there's other efficiencies that are obvious. That'd be okay. There's probably benefit in talking about if, if that's something that you don't, but, but, and then here's the reality for people.
But then if, you know, if Karen's sitting there or someone else is sitting at home and, and, and if you think in your mind, you're like, oh, but I haven't shared this. I haven't talked about this and I haven't talked about that. That's when a therapist is good in the sense of, okay, well, it's sharing all these other things that sometimes you don't want to go on to again, you know, Cole pointed it out, but generally as guys, as opposed to girls in general, you're not going to find a group of guys where they're like, I had a really tough time about this and you know, what are you thinking about and wanting to support? And as much as guys know about that, you don't really do it just as in general, unless the it's a very open group where you do that kind of naturally, but most often you're kind of holding back. There's male aspects to that. There's, you know, trying to be the brave person or the solitude, solemn individual. Again, not always the case. I'm rational. I'm generalizing, but for the most part, it's I can see the therapy being a good thing. If it's, if there's certain things that you know are beneficial to open up with someone that you just don't or, you know, social kamikaze reasons you're not going to go and do. Yeah,
[00:31:04] Kyrin Down:
the I think there's the difference between the introspection aspect and the understanding aspect the because you can have you can be nth degree introspective and that can actually be awful because you're thinking too much, analyzing too much and you get yourself into, trouble by essentially thinking too much, if anything. I was chatting with my brother the other day and it, because because I had a moment where I was like, what the fuck am I doing? And it was related to pretty much this issue of talking with girls, not talking with girls, finding a partner. And, the main outcome was like, you're probably a bit too smart and smart in the sense of you think too much. Not that's not necessary. And those two things kind of like come together.
You won't be able to think to to like reason. Yeah, well, I guess like smartness IQ is probably linked to link to like being able to do multiple levels of of thinking and not just like surface level. And, the main commonality of all the people in this book, I would say, is they didn't have people they could 100% talk through or like feel understood by. Perhaps the only, exception to that would be the the girl who's dying in the sense that, she probably just needed, an app yet that single person they didn't know at all. Because she had a partner who she could talk things with, family friends, she seemed like a very like well loved person and could communicate with these people. But she needed something external. Yeah, like a pure release valve. Most of the other people in this book seem to not have that being able to 100% say like, hey, this is exactly what's going on through my head and things like that.
So that that would probably be the the commonality. So yeah, I guess maybe you could say that that's what that guy was doing with Tony Robbins, but that's a very different environment. That's yeah.
[00:33:24] Juan Granados:
Therapy in front of thousands of people. I'm not sure is a. Yeah, but like like the other one I've always like I've heard the time and I saw someone on my social do something recently where, you know, there's some, there's a certain group of people, not everyone, but certain group of people who go to, relationships like couple counseling, a racial therapy before and they say like, you know, before there's any problems, like obvious when there's problems. Okay, makes sense. But there's another group of individuals who, or couples who go when there isn't any problems and they kind of call that as, yeah, yeah. But, you know, we do that because you get ahead and you've learned the techniques of how to deal with masculine energy and feminine energy. And again, there was a Tony Robbins event over in Mexico just recently about this and that you have all these conversations. But again, as I like hear what they share when they go to it, it strikes me as yes. But like the what I'm hearing from therapy is that you're learning or that you're investing energy in all time into learning something, becoming better and improving. Would you get in my default kind of goes to get that you can there's so many ways you can do that without the exclusivity of going down the therapy path nor spending something. Now, again, there is benefit in when you invest some sort of money, your capital, into doing something, then you do invest yourself more into doing it because you've put money on the line. You put a little bit of skin on the line. So then you care more about it and will do something. So if it's for that reason, you know, maybe that's also a good thing, but it's like like some some level of incentive. But when I see that again, I kind of go, how do you see other options and opportunities that you can take? It doesn't have to be exclusively the therapeutic way. Even though it's even though it is a good option for quite a few people. For sure. Yeah. Let's jump into the boostagram lounge and then we'll talk about some of the kind of modern day therapy options as well as the
[00:35:13] Kyrin Down:
mail, the mail question. And, you're not going to struggle one because we actually did get some boostograms coming in, but the Satoshi stream is not working at the very point. That's so I don't see any on the Toshi Stream. Yep. So I'm going to just jump into where I can actually see them. So, we go into fountain here, gonna, income and I got a boost. So we did actually get a couple come in. I saw this week from a fountain will load. We got two coming in
[00:35:50] Juan Granados:
from here. I guess you want to see Peter.
[00:35:52] Kyrin Down:
Yeah. So, we've got one one from True Fans. This was from the late bloomer actor. He says, I keep saying on Pod News and to True Fans CEO Sam Sethi, beef of the won't become mainstream until it's a system with fiat currency. No wallets, no sats. And he sent, I think, 15 sats, but that was probably more. That was probably probably 50 to 100 ish. So yes. Thank you. Agreed, mate. The the it will become easy. It will become easy. And who will make it easy? The question is. That's a. Yeah, that's a very good question. I'll read out Peter's Bruce as well. Yep. He sends I'm assuming
[00:36:31] Juan Granados:
probably a total of 2,000 or something like that. Just two twenty two is what I'm assuming.
[00:36:35] Kyrin Down:
Or it could be 1,100. I think 1100.
[00:36:39] Juan Granados:
Yeah. 1100. Yeah. He said, this is from the, enjoy your fucking life or you're gonna die episode we did last week. I have to agree with one, having young kids, especially on the two, adds additional complication to any plants. Dealing with poops, for example, everywhere I go these days, I need to think about what to do with a literal pile of human shit. Yes. You do. Leaning on routine is inevitable. Also, don't forget, babies develop better with repetition and generally are much happier with familiarity. As a parent, you do it subconsciously for them.
Yep. No. Absolutely. And, Peter, I was gonna say to Karen earlier before the podcast as well, my little one's going through the phase of, emotionally dealing with big emotions as well and tantrums and the terrible twos. And again, it's it's crazy in in the sense of familiarity and routine is so good. But at the same time, man, it makes me go crazy, you know, doing almost the same thing without having a little bit of differentiation. So I went after that podcast last weekend, I went to the running track with my little one. She loved it, like love, love running. So it was something different that we did one morning. And then yesterday, apart from going in the morning to socialize run club for a walk and coming home after soccer, all I did was stay at home, Just stay at home and then go shopping. I stayed at home. We did play and we get to do all these various things. But just the being at home and the routine and the familiarity and you know, it's looking likely I'm gonna do the same thing today. I was like, Oh, man. I'm craving. I'm craving some adventure. So like the balance between that to just going and doing something that's it's it's it's a it's a weird tough feeling. Again, let's go back to therapy.
That's the one where I'm like, if I baby didn't have as many parents that I know around me or there wasn't the evident amount of information that I can find, that might be something that I'd be okay. Maybe it's worth talking to someone about that. And it's weird. I don't have to be a specialist about it, but it would be maybe trying to help me understand, okay, what's this craving of adventure or doing something different and going for the shiny thing, whatever it may be, as opposed to understanding the reality of it. No. I could see that if it wasn't easy enough for me to just go find that information myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But fucking fucking kids, man. It's just kids. Chuck them out. But let's talk about let's talk about other therapies in general, like, male therapists,
[00:38:56] Kyrin Down:
therapies that we we do. I'll be doing a couple of little quick stats here. So there's just AI spinning this out at me, but it makes sense based on what she was saying in the book as well. One survey found forty one percent of women had been to therapy compared to twenty nine percent of men. And the that seems to just be like a general type ratio is that women are much more likely to seek out therapy. Women are also much more likely to be therapists is I believe the other the other stat that I know. So I guess this gets to I mean, like, what neither of us particularly qualified to say why that is but in general, females talk more within their groups about more emotional topics, I guess. And then more related to like external things.
In general, I would say like sports and random shit like that. So that was just a general random thing. But it was saying a little thing here of what are Australian men talking about in therapy. And this was from mid last year that they were talking about this. What do you reckon some of the topics that men are talking about in six topic topics tend to reoccur amongst men? Loneliness. Yeah. Now that.
[00:40:27] Juan Granados:
Anger.
[00:40:29] Kyrin Down:
Let me see if that's. Yep. Depression, anxiety, anger and addiction. It's got two of them.
[00:40:39] Juan Granados:
I was going to say like depression, loneliness is another one, but I guess they've put them all into one.
[00:40:46] Kyrin Down:
You were talking about one just before. Was I? Yeah. As in like one minute ago. No. Parenting.
[00:40:57] Juan Granados:
Oh, okay. They grouped out as like, okay, I was thinking more like emotion. Okay, parenting, death.
[00:41:03] Kyrin Down:
No, no death in here. No death. We're all going to live forever. We're going to live forever.
[00:41:09] Juan Granados:
We've reached the threshold. We've reached the threshold. It's not a problem to worry about.
[00:41:13] Kyrin Down:
No, I don't know. What about. The separation and divorce. Hi. Yeah. Intimacy issues or concerns. Yep. And this particularly sexual related, so like erectile dysfunction, sex addiction, things that are considered shameful, perhaps. So perhaps, even fantasies and things like that would fall under that. And then number two was identity and masculinity, which, that's one that I've always never understood. I think masculinity, masculinity is it's almost like the most boring topic for me. I don't I don't know why. It's never one that I've found like men. Am I am I masculine enough? Am I?
[00:41:58] Juan Granados:
Yeah, I don't think I've ever thought that. Yeah, I think I've ever thought that. Which is funny, because
[00:42:04] Kyrin Down:
I, you know, maybe in some ways I should because I think I mentioned the other week, like, I've got a lot of feminine type traits and the things that I seek out, and personality characteristics and things certainly put me on a more feminine spectrum. But I've never never worried about being masculine, which I don't know, it's odd. I find odd compared to other guys. So I'm like, dude, you're ticking off like all the masculine boxes, but you're worried about your masculinity? Like, fucking you've already got it, man. Yeah. I don't know. But certainly the other ones, I think we're all relatively relatable in terms of why you would
[00:42:42] Juan Granados:
go to have that conversation. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:42:47] Kyrin Down:
So yeah, those those are just some of the things that that men are seeking out. Would I consider going to the gym therapy or, I think probably not. I think that solves some of the, perhaps like hormonal, the physical issues, you know, doing things that, you know, playing sports, going outside, you get in the sunlight, you're raising your heart rate, you're doing things that are going to be physically beneficial for you. And physical health translates into mental health as well. You know, I think they're pretty intimately linked. So I think we probably try and solve more of the physical related stuff, the kind of engineering approach. Yeah. The woman has a problem at home, male partner says a whole bunch of things of how to fix that problem. And she's like, that's not what, like, I didn't come to you looking for a fucking solution.
I just wanted to be heard and understood. So females probably get more of that side of things. They nail that side, whereas the men are more solving the the actual tangible, here's what you can practical you can do in the next five minutes or next day or next week to solve that. And then vice versa. Men are probably really shitty at the understanding emotional context reasons for why you're perhaps implementing the changes and females, I'm guessing, struggle more with the practical like, all right, I'm feeling lonely. Here's five things I can do to make more friends or, you know, talk and read this book or etcetera, etcetera. So once again, generalizing here.
Yeah. Do you would you consider going to the gym therapy as
[00:44:38] Juan Granados:
a in the context that we've talked about here? Yeah. In a way, yes, I would. And again, I've often probably last ten years, I'll just say more, more maybe it's like it it always was a physical thing for to from the beginning. Absolutely. And still is right. But yeah, more probably say like ten years now of the the routine, the ability of just going through the the the emotion regulations, the, like, known hormonal releases that you get from a training, whether it's a run or a swim or a gym workout, whatever helps you to kind of just be a little bit more stable. So I would say I would put it in that category. I was gonna ask you this. So I'm trying to kind of go a little bit more fundamental.
If you were like, I won't make it dumb. But if you were just very, very low emotions, so not zero emotions, like zero zero emotions, but very, very low. So, you know, happiness was little blips and sadness with little blips and anger and everything. Would that sort of individual really need to go to therapy if emotions are almost void? So in the example that you gave about, for yourself on relationships and not it doesn't work for a year. Right. And I'm assuming that an emotion at the end of that year, if it doesn't come about, maybe sadness that's attached to the loneliness, maybe a bit of frustration. But if those emotions were like barely perceptible, like so so low, would you still think then that you would need or require therapy? It would depend if
[00:46:09] Kyrin Down:
the reason that I'm not feeling emotions is because I'm damping them down. The kind of a strategy for not dealing with negative stuff in your life is to fucking numb yourself to nothingness. And people can sometimes do this with drugs, but you can I could see a way of you emotionally being able to rationalize things, doing it purely intellectually to cut everything at the knees and then having like this bubbling, I guess, like inner core of turmoil, but on the surface not displaying it? So that would be like, it doesn't look like he's an emotional person, but perhaps he is. Or, you know, there's I'm sure that that's probably something you'd need to see, like, as a kid, what were they like as a kid If they were just a kid who was just like meh and everything, then that's probably fine. But yeah, I'd say if you're not feeling things, it's the rare
[00:47:23] Juan Granados:
type of person, I would say. Well, I guess I was trying to just think whether, you know, ultimately whether therapy or if you want to call fitness therapy or walking therapy or just talking to a friend as therapy or whatever you want to designate as that, if it's really just fundamentally like regulating your emotions to a point that it's understandable so that you can do something about, because I'm just thinking a kid, my daughter, she's young, she's going to go, she's going through these big emotions. Right. And, and part of that, you know, you don't have to call it therapy, but it's, she doesn't understand what, how to handle emotions like this. And so you have to kind of talk her through and help her out with these sort of things. So similarly, I'm just kind of wondering at the end, is it just a case of regulating emotion? What does regulate mean? Does that mean
[00:48:09] Kyrin Down:
finding an outlet for, like an socially acceptable outlet for something you're feeling? Does that mean intentionally squashing it in the moment so that you could release it later? Does that mean? Yeah, I guess it would depend on what that what that actually means.
[00:48:29] Juan Granados:
Yeah, I you know, you're right. Again, I'm just thinking the example that you put, which I think is a good one. If in a year's time, I think happens from relationship. You could at that point, still be like, ah, like I'm not super sad. I'm doing all the things I still enjoy. You're happy because you're training and things are improving and all other aspects of life are fine. And you could say, it's sad and slowly, but it's not that bad. It's like, okay, I guess it's not really the emotion part of it, but you'd still want that. You can still very much like, Oh my God, but I still want that. So I want this therapist to kind of help me figure out what it is that I'm doing here that isn't helping me achieve this. I guess maybe like I guess I was trying to say if it's just emotions, but it sounds like it isn't. Might not just be emotions itself that it tries to work through. This is where it could be the the
[00:49:17] Kyrin Down:
the step behind. I know if I dedicated if I just wiped my slate clean in terms of my routine, I have the capacity to go out twelve hours a day, do everything I can to put me in positions where I will meet females and I'm
[00:49:35] Juan Granados:
I'm sure I'd find a partner very quickly. This is my this is my challenge though, I think. And I because I kind of go, what if you did that and you didn't Like what? So so let's just say theoretically, you go I go blank slate, you go hardcore at it and you still don't. Is it then a case of, you know, it might not be the case. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm investing more time and so it's giving me more probability for it. But will it be, you know, will it decrease the odds? Because, you know, when you aim for something so ridiculous, like, you know, if you aim for happiness ridiculously hard, you don't find it, but you kind of have to aim for something adjacent or something else that you care for. And then you'll achieve that. Yeah,
[00:50:17] Kyrin Down:
the the tricky thing would then be like, if you you put all of your effort into finding a like a partner like that. They ask, what are you doing with your life? And you're like,
[00:50:31] Juan Granados:
approaching.
[00:50:34] Kyrin Down:
How the fuck do you answer that? You know, so there's, the question then would be like, alright, your standards too high, are they are your standards too high because you're, you're afraid of intimacy or afraid of having something change your life? Are you, you know, there's, there's all these things where it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm 100% certain if I did that, I'd find a partner and you know what? I, I would then just have a different problem in my life and it would be just as consuming, would feel just the same as much as this one now. So it's like, all right, well, that's that's not going to be the solution. Yeah, correct. And this is probably the there's two things I was going to bring up the AI stuff in this point, which was whilst reading the book, I got to the very end and she had this last paragraph where she talks about the.
Let me read up the title of the last, it's not a pause in the conversation. Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah, a pause in the conversation is the the last paragraph. And you might go like, okay, so this is the point where she's kind of like getting towards the end of her therapy. She feels like she's about to leave. And they call that a termination of of the therapy. Yeah. And throughout this whole period of reading it, I'm going like, okay, well, these people have like multi complex, varied problems. At what point do they stop or do they do they find a solution? Or do at what point does the therapy, end? Is there an end date for this kind of like counseling in a way?
And even midway through, she was saying like, oh, you know, there's this period where people feel like they're doing better. They started to implement some things. This is the most dangerous period. They actually need to be coming to therapy more at this time, right? Because they're more likely to backslide or, you know, feel like they've fully accomplished what they feel like they set out to do when they're not necessarily finished. They've just taken the first step. The first step feels great. But then there's still 1,000 steps to take
[00:52:45] Juan Granados:
to get Sounds like good money. Yeah, sounds like a good money system.
[00:52:49] Kyrin Down:
And this and this is where I kind of left the book being a bit confused going. There was no real, I feel like framing of what What is what when would therapy ends? Like, what are the kind of like, what are your risks? What is the set success metrics? Are your things that go like, okay, cool. You should terminate. And usually it seems to be people just say, I feel like I don't need to come anymore, which I guess is the whole reason why they go. It's like, I feel like I should go to therapy. Very vague, very vague and wishy washy, which is fine. I guess it's all about emotion. So you know, you're not going to have concrete data of, you know, achieve XYZ goal and then therapy therapy can then commence or end.
So but I did feel the framing of it was gone. Okay, I still don't understand when, when she thinks an acceptable time to end or what other type of things that should happen or could happen for for that to be like, yeah. And that's why a pause on the conversation. The pause could be the rest of their lives and they never see each other again. Or it could be okay, this is just a pause in our therapy. And, you know, I might be back in two weeks time, I might be back in two years time. Yeah, ten years time. So that was one one point where I left a bit confused.
The other one, this was published in 2019. So just pre COVID, and also just pre AI. And I think I'd be very interested to hear her thoughts on the business side of things, which she touches on slightly. Because it is a business as well. And most of these are therapists, they kind of seem to be like they're more self operated, but perhaps they'd be in a small group with others. So there'd be perhaps like a building with which is set up to have, you know, multiple therapists working out of it, but they each seem to be working independently, the, they have to kind of like, source their own clients in a way sort of deal.
And so she talks about, you know, advertising in terms of, you know, come in for one, one free session. If you feel like you've got some benefit or those things to work through, then you can come back and do more paid ones. That's more like the this is real advertising type behavior marketing. You can market yourself to certain niches of you know, I'm a couple's therapist, I'm a therapist related to divorce or divorcees. You know, I'm a single female. So I appeal more to the single female who will perhaps be understood or something like that. And the thing that she briefly mentions, like, oh, now there's this kind of like little rise of text therapy, but I felt it was impersonal, didn't get to the heart of what a therapist can provide and stuff. And I'm going like, damn, girl, like AI therapy is here. Yes. You know, I'd, I'd be curious to know how her business is going. Yes. I record it probably would have peaked or like really picked up during COVID in the sense of perhaps she would have had to have converted to online therapy, I'm guessing. Well, yes, business could have been good, really good for a bit. And then now it's like, alright, well, if it if we're all used to online therapy, how very different is that compared to just AI therapy? True, but I disagree
[00:56:26] Juan Granados:
because it's a generational thing and it's likely that so take for instance a divorcee or relationships and I'll just generalize it. Let's just say it's older than 25, generally maybe 35 years old, 40 years old. I still it still doesn't strike me that a general 40 year old will default to AI or technology first. They probably go to a person first, especially if they can pay and that's more of a guarantee versus the zone guarantee with AI or something to that effect or even if therapy is not a guarantee, there's trial and proven methods in there that maybe you just don't even know how to ask an AI. Whereas if it's a, kid's therapy, let's just say for instance, I would probably say there's way more likelihood that a kid in today's world, 12 year old, would be like, I'm just gonna ask this AI and talk to the AI. Why would I go and talk to a therapist? That makes all the sense to me. So but eventually eventually is it becomes a more mainstream thing that everyone's using. Yeah. I could see that being a super challenge for me. Is the, you know, part of the reason of loneliness,
[00:57:28] Kyrin Down:
I assume is there's less physical connections with people, we're going more digital. Great in some ways, because you can connect with other people across the world. A lot of people, you know, people would maybe even say that World of Warcraft is a type of therapy because they're meeting like minded people, they can communicate in, you know, perhaps a format which is less intense than the physical eye contact, all of the the physical body language and interpreting that can be talked about, you know, going to a thing at the gym recently where a bunch of guys from the gym, a couple of girls as well, got together for a goodbye thing. And, you know, the mingling dynamics of eight people in a bar is is it's complex, man. Sure. It's complex. And certainly for a bunch of people, that's not their preferred avenue for communication. And so I could see the digital helping a lot of people.
And then also for other people that the more digital is actually causing them to be more isolated. So they would actually seek out a physical therapist. Yeah. Yeah. And you you got to have the you got to know we're going to have all all options available. So it depends. Are there more Weebos in the world or are there more extroverts? That's the question. That's that's the real question. That's your your whole business is gonna depend on if you think there's more Weebos or if there's more there's more
[00:58:57] Juan Granados:
real lifers. More real lifers. I think ultimately for me with, you know, what's what's the defining factor in today's world that I would say, to make you go somewhere like a personable therapist as a, like a human as opposed to using like every other option that's available. I kinda say, and this is just an old thing, that a well formed question is half the answer. Same thing goes for the well formed prompt or an incantation or whatever. If you don't really know what the right question is and you don't have the tools, techniques, information, and people to figure out the question, then, yeah, I can see it being good because what therapists are good for is understanding what the real question, the underlying thing is, and whether that's something else that you need to, like, face, helps them understand that. So, you know, I'm not saying this is the answer, the reality of the question. But if in a year's time, you kind of go, Oh, man, why am I not finding a girl or a relationship?
They might be a therapist might go, actually, yeah, that's that's a wrong question ultimately and helping you understand. I mean, it's like, actually, the real question is why do you still feel like you're not adequate enough to be the man to bring it something to that effect. Right. And then people on their own might be might not get to that point and go, oh, shit, that was my unlock that I needed. Actually, if you just focused more in training and you're sleeping and doing things that, you know, mastery or whatever, I'm reading mastery at the moment, you might go, oh, that's what I needed. And all right, you then you succeed. So, but then there's other people who might be able to figure out the right question themselves where whatever go for a month and you feel really lonely and they might in a smart way, which is by thinking, Okay, well, is that really the question is, let me, let me just think it through and figure out. Actually if I read three biographies and I talked to two people and I talked to this other person and actually it might be this that's the problem with me and then I'll retrospect on that and try to improve on that and then again, fantastic. So if you could figure out the question yourself to begin with and then follow the path, cool. I think you don't need that pay the extra money, but paying someone money directly, one incentivizes you, two, they have seen the routine across other people. I think the most powerful thing I've I've always like kind of like settled in from a therapeutic perspective, and I've said this to a lot of people, is whenever I hear, like, some genuine concerns or people, you know, problem and even myself when I complain about it, it's the realization or I'll spin it in the in the non kind way and then I'll say it in a calm way. The non kind way it is, shut the fuck up. Like everyone, everyone has experiences or worse. What a stupid complaint.
The kind way is like, yes, it is suffering. Yes, it is difficult. Yeah. But be okay in the feeling that everyone else has gone through this at some point. You're not unique in that factor. That non uniqueness is is a beautiful thing in the you are insignificant in the universe, but that also gives you a bit of an unlock as well around and even even saying that that means like who cares improve and just do what you can top of the deal. And for some people that's not actually beneficial. Correct. Absolutely. That's what I'm saying. I gave you the, there's like kind, even the kind is probably not even kind, kind, but there's a non kind way which some people would like froth. Fantastic.
I know I myself, you know, whatever. I can give you a billion examples. I'm sure there's been an example where I'm like tired and annoyed and grumpy and I slept three hours and I've I've got to do this and I'm a man complaining. And, you know, it's the general for guys probably unkind to yourselves and kind of others and on the kind of as like, what am I complaining about? Like, there's a bazillion things that could be worse. Like, shut the fuck up. Like, it could be absolutely worse. Now there's you could say it was like a gratitude perspective. It's whatever else. You know, it's the slang of, you know, yourself at 20 years old would have dreamed to have these fucking problems. So like, what are you complaining about? You know, if you, if you want to be in the arena, be prepared to get a couple of wounds. You know, it's all this sort of shit where it's like, okay, fine, you can therapeutically dose yourself with that sort of stuff. And it helps me.
Of course, that's not going to help other people. And then you've got to figure out what the what's the shit that actually helps you to be like, help out with whatever problem you're in. You heard it here first once,
[01:03:02] Kyrin Down:
claiming that men are kinder to others and females aren't.
[01:03:06] Juan Granados:
I think specifically as every men, males are kinder to others and unkind to ourselves. Yeah. The I would put it this way. The
[01:03:15] Kyrin Down:
one of the main also qualms I had of this, which is she had a good therapist and I'm assuming she's saying she's a good therapist as well in the book. The vulnerability of exposing yourself, I could see the questions that they're asking people. If therapists want to lead them down a wrong path or a, you know, a selfish path, I feel that would be super, super easy. That's happened before heaps. Like, there's men. So I I remember reading an example
[01:03:47] Juan Granados:
of a couple's counselor that led this particular female down a path that she would leave a husband to get with him. Like that was a noise. Like, man, I'm sure that happens. And and why does that happen? Because when you put yourself in a more vulnerable position, you're then able to be influenced much more easily. Right? That's a very common place thing. So it can be, yep. Part of it is authority to work. You have to be vulnerable to share that stuff. But then it puts you at the mercy of the guidance of this person. So a good one. Fantastic. But in a bad case, like, man, that could be really problematic. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I would probably say the same with AI. If you,
[01:04:25] Kyrin Down:
you know, scouting on someone's got a model and they've adjusted certain parameters, they put certain things into it. Yeah. You make them more liberal. Liberal, you know, make them more. Make whatever. Make them. Make them hate nuclear power. Make them like this cult that I'm developing. And, you know, his. Oh, have you thought about the,
[01:04:45] Juan Granados:
you know. I see you've got a problem with your one hour handset, but if you joined this cult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Might improve. Yes, yes. Correct.
[01:04:52] Kyrin Down:
So I would, I would certainly be that that's another kind of thing where it's like, alright, there's something to think about if you're going into, you know, trying to fix a problem. You want people to understand you. And that's, I guess, half of the battle of feeling understood, but then also the practical solution aspect of it. The Yeah, just realizing that okay, that's you can get some really shitty practical advice as well. And that's why probably you actually don't want that much practical advice from from your therapist. That's, you know, they can
[01:05:30] Juan Granados:
Yeah, it's it's kind of like, you know, you don't go to the, you know, to the trailer park and go and ask a couple of people, you know, give me some some idea and practical advice about making, you know, money or like being successful in the money business perspective. You know, you might you could, but you might not be getting the best information that you possibly could. You know, if you go to a,
[01:05:50] Kyrin Down:
a tiler, your roof, you've got a problem with your house. There's a leak in the roof or something. You know, a tiler is going to suggest a certain thing compared to a carpenter who's gonna suggest something else compared to like, you know, it could be the same problem. Like the light bulbs not working. The tiler is saying like it's water coming in through the roof. The electrician saying it's the, you know, the plant, the, the wiring, the fucking manufacturer saying you need to just replace the light bulb. It's the same problem, but the solution
[01:06:19] Juan Granados:
is different. Is different. And same with incentives, right? Like if you've got like she was talking about a business model, you know, if they've got a particular business model where it's higher, we need you to be on here for eight, sixteen, twenty four sessions, two years. You know, if you know, they might not be incentivized to get you all sorted in three sessions, it'll be like, oh, no, no, no, you need to keep coming back. And, even though they maybe know that they're able to go and do it themselves, they keep on the hook for that sweet, sweet money that comes through. So, you know, there's incentives as well that people got to watch out for. Yeah, they, fifty minute sessions are apparently the norm of, for therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And why that is? I have no idea. But. Well, yeah, all you have to do is listen to the Me and Mortals podcast. We give you more than fifty minutes every Sunday morning. So all you need to do is you come in, you sit down 9AM. By the time we finish, you're dumber. So it's fantastic. You've settled in. You feel superior
[01:07:10] Kyrin Down:
because of what we've talked about. So I hope you enjoyed that. Don't even have to pay, but you can. You can. So we, very much appreciate Peter late bloomer actor for sending in some support. Correct. You would like to do that as well. Me and mortalspodcasts.com/support. A couple of different ways you can do that. Simply like reaching out to us, joining any of the social media, giving us topic suggestions you'd like to hear from or about, leaving comments, reviews, joining us in a live like Cole and Patricia have, and then also sending in a boostagram via an app like Fountain, Podcast Guru, Astomatic,
[01:07:47] Juan Granados:
True Fans, things like that is very much appreciated. Correct. And we'll leave it there. Yeah. Thank you very much then for tuning in live. For those who are listening afterwards, be well wherever you are in the world. One out. Turn out.
Oh. Mere Mortalites to another episode of the mere mortals meanderings, which is our usual weekly episode. Juan and I get together. Me being Kyrin here on the side. Juan on the side. On the November 23, we usually get together nine a. M. Australian Eastern Standard Time on a Sunday live. Come join us, if you will. And these episodes are where we chat about a particular topic, but we've changed the style to less structured, less prepared for the time going forward. As usual, in my kind of ones, I'm centering it around a book that I've been reading, and this one is Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb, a therapist, her therapist and our lives revealed.
So, this was just one of my random ones that I picked up, recently along the self help, type of lines, although I guess this isn't necessarily self help because you're involving another person with it. And I decided to just give it a try. And I guess my expectations coming in were like,
[00:01:13] Juan Granados:
Yeah, that's that's sort of how I look when I'm looking at the book. And that's exactly that's exactly what I would have thought.
[00:01:19] Kyrin Down:
And, to give you just a quick overview,
[00:01:23] Juan Granados:
pleasantly surprised, very pleasantly surprised. I guess it's I guess it's the case as well when you come in with that expectation, if you come in with the expectation. Much easier to then it's easy for it to surprise you. Yeah. And so I guess my,
[00:01:36] Kyrin Down:
type of initial reaction was just, it's not that I don't think therapy can help. It's not that, I don't think it is beneficial to people. It's just one of the ones where I was going what, I suppose it cleared up some misconceptions that I had about what actually goes on in there. And whilst I still have some reservations, particularly right towards the end of it, which I didn't think some things were explained. I think the style of the book was actually really helpful. So talks about Laurie and Sue, you know, changes in people's names and stuff to preserve anonymity, privacy.
But essentially, it's telling about her life as
[00:02:20] Juan Granados:
a psychiatrist
[00:02:21] Kyrin Down:
therapist therapist. Is there a difference between the two? Psychotherapist. Yeah. I'm not actually
[00:02:29] Juan Granados:
aware of what the difference would be. I think there is a difference between psychotherapists and
[00:02:34] Kyrin Down:
psychiatrists. I'll quickly I'll cook it up as you look through. Yeah. As I just give the overview. So she talks about, you know, she's a therapist, so she gets people coming in. She's got this and in particular is kind of like four or five stories in here. One is of a lady called, I won't even bother saying their names because they're not the real person, a lady who's dying and she's, you know, 30, 30 years old meant to get married, but turns out has cancer and is dying instead. There is a much older lady in her seventies who has basically like fucked up her children's lives, had three marriages, all disasters, came in suicidal saying like, I've got literally nothing to live for, no friends.
And if I can't improve it in the next year, then I'm going to kill myself. A very angry, studio executive or writer for like a TV hit series in Hollywood and who's had some very traumatic things happen to him where, you know, got into a car accident and his young son died at the time. He's having troubles communicating with his wife. And I think those were the main three. And then she herself goes to see a therapist because of things happening in her life, notably a breakup with the boyfriend. But then it turns out like, okay, it was actually a whole lot more going on than behind just that. So it was good because it presented the point of view from both sides of the of of the being the patient and then also being the therapist. The therapist on as well. Which I thought was helpful. And psychiatrists can prescribe medicine, and a psychotherapist cannot. Okay. So they do different types of therapies that they're allowed to mediate. Yeah, there you go. So this one's all about talk therapy, I guess. So talking it out. Yep. Yep. She doesn't mention the I think she had one offer. What an easy job.
[00:04:29] Juan Granados:
What an easy job at the face of it. I'm like, what what do you think they do? Actually. This isn't this is is where it's like the initial of, oh, sounds like an easy job. You're just letting people talk. And what I envision in my mind is you're sitting, you get someone comes in, they're angry, they're sad, they insert whatever. And you just lend a helping ear. And you just kind of ask, how does that make you feel? What does that mean about it? Is that really true? So at face value, I'm going, Wow, what an easy job. In fact, if you kind of describe this to me when I was like, fourteen fifty nine, maybe I was too young, maybe 16 17, when I kind of knew that I didn't enjoy talking or listening or like being around humans. That definition, I would have gone up, man, easy. I'd do that. Like, I'll just do that all day. But then the burden, nothing comes in the back. Okay, sure. There are particular details in the style of questioning that you might go down one path with someone versus another. But I think the detrimental slash hard thing is the equivalency of being a nurse or being a, paramedic is that you have to deal with traumatic crappy situations all the time that you have to, as much as you can, sure, you kind of like separate yourself from the story, but you're going to get dragged into some of these at some point and go like, Oh man, that was so heavy. So what I assume it is, is just you sit in front of another person. You have a lot of com you the patient will describe and follows the lead of the therapist in leading them through to get to some eventuality at the end of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's
[00:06:03] Kyrin Down:
reasonably close. I guess she talks about some of the more intricate points of what they are trying to do, which is essentially being a mirror or reflection. Because people go in there looking for advice. And it's like, you know, that people come in with a problem and they're looking for a solution, but that's not necessarily what the therapist is there to provide. It's meant to be okay, here's you know, we've all got problems in our lives. Why is yours so I guess like difficult that you. You can't process yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So and there's a whole lot intricacies of, you know, trying to figure out what's going on behind the words, what isn't being said.
A lot of times I think two of the characters in her book, sorry, one of the characters, the real angry guy, he doesn't reveal that he his son died in an accident until like months into their sessions. And so, you know, he's thinking or well, she's thinking, oh, like he's just having problems communicating with his wife or something like that. Or he's just stressed out at work and he can't sleep. I think that's the reason he says he joins. But yeah, turns out like, oh, no, he's got like all of this baggage that he's just not talking about and obviously still in his mind but isn't revealing to her. And that takes a long time. So yeah, there's many roles they play,
[00:07:34] Juan Granados:
I suppose. Like just going from a start starting point. Have you ever been to a therapist or? Not not to like I've never like, you know, when the when again what I'm envisioning is you go to a therapist, you like sit down, you have a conversation specifically as like a therapeutic environment. No. Okay.
[00:07:51] Kyrin Down:
Do you know any therapists either? Is another question. I kind of think I do. Yeah, I don't know any off the top of my head. But I have been to therapy once. Well, eight times, actually. Eight times. But it was like. It was one bout. Yeah. And so this was actually I don't know if I've ever talked about this before. Maybe. So when I was, let's say, 17, maybe it was 18. No, it was it would have been like older than drinking age because I could go to bars. So I'm gonna say 18 or 19. Probably 18. I had, was going up to my next door neighbor's house one evening because he invited me for his like a mini birthday celebration sort of deal. It was probably going to be like seven people in his little fucking basement dungeon type area.
Was actually on my way to walk up and I was going to do the shortcuts shortcut across our house. Spiderweb right in the face. Boom.
[00:08:54] Juan Granados:
Oh, spiderweb. Yep.
[00:08:56] Kyrin Down:
Yeah. Get that shit out of my face. I'm pretty sure I remember walking down the driveway and then you'd know this one. The the driveway up to his house daunting. It was huge. Yep. Big, long, steep driveway. I went down at once on a skateboard with you know, sitting on the skateboard with some thongs. Fucking wrecked my thongs. They just disintegrated.
[00:09:18] Juan Granados:
That's how much friction was generated from this. Using them as brakes. So
[00:09:23] Kyrin Down:
I think I remember looking up at it and like hearing the noise of like, celeb, you know, lab people music and stuff. And just going, I don't want to go up there. Like, I don't want to go. And so I kind of went and I sat in the garage and I was just sitting there and just kind of ruminating. And this was kind of like peak social anxiety times for me. I'd say high school wasn't particularly fun, but then getting out into the real world in essence where you're not forced to be places was it made it even more highlighting of just how anxious I was.
And, my dad ended up like just walking out and then like seeing like, oh, my son's just sitting in the middle of the garage, like what? Ruminating.
[00:10:10] Juan Granados:
Yeah.
[00:10:12] Kyrin Down:
And I had a bit of like a mental breakdown essentially. It's just like crying a lot, being like, I'm not happy, blah, blah, blah. And so that took me out. We actually went to like McDonald's car park, I think, because my mom had just came home. So I was like, all right, this is more like one on one time. And he eventually suggested like, hey, like, this isn't a normal reaction. Would you be willing to go to a therapist? No. You're like, I said, yes. Okay. Yeah. So I ended up going to this guy for I think it was eight sessions and, I got, I would say, zero out of it.
Zero. And the reason was I knew what my problem was. I also knew how to solve it, which was I was anxiously afraid and of talking to basically everyone, but especially girls. And I knew how to solve it, which was to go out and start a project and, and do it. And he, I guess was, I feel like I was that person who was holding back things like I didn't reveal my inner life to this random dude. Yeah. And, you know, he'd give me some like techniques and things to perhaps work on. It's kind of like the Jordan Pearson type thing. It's like, well, what can you manage? Can you manage to go out into a shopping center on your own? Okay, can you manage to go out to like a movie? Can you go out in the night? Yeah, environment on your own? Yeah, like stepping up the
[00:11:51] Juan Granados:
like the phasing of the fear. Yeah, like slowly and surely. Yeah. Could you go up to someone
[00:11:57] Kyrin Down:
in unannounced in a bar? No. Could you say hi to the bartender? Yes. Okay, well, that's what you do. So it give me kind of like these tasks and things to try and do. So I think it was actually not exactly like this one, which he was giving me more directions and stuff, whereas she's more
[00:12:18] Juan Granados:
Letting them come up with the next step or the action. Yeah, yeah. Something like that.
[00:12:23] Kyrin Down:
And so even though I saw this guy a bunch of times and I kind of said I was doing the things, I was only like half assed doing them to the point where, like, I wasn't really doing it. I was wasting his time. I was wasting my time. I was wasting my dad's money. It was kind of just like, I think we'd also just booked in a eight week session. Maybe it was even four. Honestly, I can't remember so long ago and doing all of that made me go, I think that was why I had that reaction, which was like, that was pointless. That didn't help me at all.
Mostly because I didn't help myself by doing what you meant to be doing in that. And I think that was probably also the reason why most people would go to a therapist voluntarily. Maybe I shouldn't even say that. I'm not even sure like how many people are mandated to go to one because of a prison sentence sort of thing. Like, you know, doing therapy as part of your rehabilitation.
[00:13:26] Juan Granados:
There'd be plenty and other examples. I'm sure. Yeah, you have to kind of let go. In this case, the people in this book were going to voluntarily
[00:13:34] Kyrin Down:
and and so I wasn't getting anything out of it, essentially. So that was my reaction to to doing it. I guess a question for you. So it's not just me monologuing. What do you think would ever be a trigger point for you where you would think about maybe going to a therapist?
[00:13:55] Juan Granados:
Maybe if it was something where and see this is it's so odd, really, because what immediately came to our mind, and then the next thought kind of like even negated it. So I almost about say nothing. But why you would in a world fifteen years ago is like very different to a world of today in that I would I would think about going when it's something where I have no real information about nor the ability to learn from. So I mean, based on what you're saying as well, I can only think you're only going to get the outcome or whatever achievement you're trying to get from it if you do talk about it to its fullest extent. So let's just say, something occurred however much ago and I'm angry now. I'm like really angry. And I didn't know how to dislocate away from that back into my my normal patterns.
There I can imagine on the fact of, okay, maybe I need to go and have a conversation with someone specifically or maybe it's other people are telling you that to go and have this conversation. And so that might have been my answer ten years ago. So if like something equivalent to that happens and you're really not able to do that from yourself, okay, I can see the need potentially for that. The problem I see with that now is that it is so abundantly easy to find information now on, hey, if you have this problem, this is what you can do. And I'm just talking not not a just not just AI. It can just be any other format. I think we talked about this, on the discord around like, you know, AI is probably gonna chew up most of psychotherapies and well, it won't be able to give you drugs as a psychiatrist would. Yeah. But a psychotherapist might you know, that that part of the technology AI landscape might take that. The the Yeah, the problem I stumble upon is, at least the way I see it, I might if I was frustrated and mad for a couple of weeks, and then someone pointed it out, like, oh, you've been more so than that.
My first recourse isn't gonna go, okay, I'm probably gonna talk to a psychotherapist. I'm probably gonna be like, I'm gonna use my technique, technological technological AI psychotherapist. Let me just feed all these things into it and see what it says. And honestly, that would probably make me feel a little bit more fulfilled slash help me take the next steps as opposed to going seeing one. But that's my, like, time is like, I honestly like right now, if what would have to happen, it would have to be something that came up that I couldn't immediately like or take any action on that people are advising me from external.
And I don't think the technology is gonna help me find out the answer. It'd have to be and and I don't really know what that would be.
[00:16:35] Kyrin Down:
Yeah. For myself, the go back to the part. I've got a friend goes to therapy and they recommend everyone should and my trigger word should go to therapy. The person that's going to it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They go to it. And so this is one of those times where it's like, okay, there's someone who believes everyone should go to this thing. Why? Why? Why do they believe that? And I think it's probably because for them, they've found it very beneficial, but they've also had a much harder life. Well, who's to say who's hard? And that's one of the things in the book she talks about where it's like comparison in this case is also unhelpful. Someone who's dying and has a lot of reason to be very unhappy, sad, hardness, suffering in their life.
It might not even be that bad compared to someone whose boyfriend broke up with her and she that other person is going feels like they're going through much more, feels like they're suffering more, even though like if you're trying to compare the two, you'd say like, oh, well, the dying person is probably probably worse. Yeah. Yeah. And so, this yeah. That was another well, when I hear, like, I should do something, it's like, nah, fuck you. Yeah. That's a bit that's a bit I've never heard someone say nobody should go to a therapist. True. So
[00:18:07] Juan Granados:
Well, it's more the underlying side. I think they get hidden behind it. Right? So when they say it's like if someone was to say, I get as well, but they are, well, people should go to therapy. I'm like, go more fundamentally. Like, what what is the reason they're saying that you should go to therapy? And then and then the answer sounds like it might be, all because you can, even if through the good times or the bad times, you can make sure that you're, retrospecting and having a conversation about how to improve yourself. Okay. So remove the word therapy out of it. That, that baseline foundational stuff of like, okay, well you should make sure that you're talking and retrospecting and being becoming a better person, right? Whatever that means to you, whatever you value.
That's the bit that I'm like, absolutely fully supportive of that. But you can do that through therapy, like in a sense of conversation with someone, you can do that by a whole host of other meaningful ways. Like for us, I guess it's fitness, I guess I would say, like a big part of what would be becoming better or having a, you know, feeling more calmer from a day perspective would be just the fitness or training that we do. So the you know, you could say like that's and you hear it. People like, oh, my therapy is gym or my therapy is running or my therapy is dancing. Right? And so I think thinking about it like, oh, therapy of like going to a particular person, like is explained probably in this book or maybe how that person was seeing it. Like, yes, I agree.
[00:19:31] Kyrin Down:
But there are a whole load of other ways that you can therapeutically help yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think we'll talk more about that stuff from kind of after the boostgram lounge. The reason they say that I would probably say is that probably don't have anyone else in their life where they can fully be themselves in a certain extent, which is, you know, whether that's because they don't feel understood from people like myself, which is possible or they're afraid to always share themselves. You know, that's that's a hard, hard question to answer. But after reading this, I was going like, you know what? There there would be a way where I would consider it.
And she actually talks in the book about how there's like, I struggle to find it right in the moment, the kind of little stages of making a decision or a change, which is, there's like just the very brief, like, preconception of something which you would have thought impossible before, perhaps for yourself would be like, zero reason why you go therapy. And this is how I would have said myself before reading this. And then at some point in the book, I was like, Oh, you know what? I would go if I had a problem, which I was giving my all to solve, and I couldn't solve it.
And despite like, my best, like my best ways to do it. Yep. Plus, communicating this with other people and their suggestions, implementing them. And if it was still kind of unsolvable, then I'd probably go like, alright, maybe it's I'm not the problem is not the the sorry, the solution is not the actually the answer. The problem is the problem. I'm getting the problem wrong. Yep. And I could say for myself right now, so it's like, the biggest problem if I was therapy right now, it would probably be talking about the difficulties of finding a partner, that would probably be the big one. If over this next year, I'd make zero progress on that. And I go, Alright, I've tried doing everything that I can implementing, like, all the solutions that I feel like I should be able to do that. Maybe it's not actually finding a partner that is the problem. Maybe it's, you know, I'm, I'm lacking a deeper meaning in life, maybe it's XYZ thing. And this is where talking with someone could actually help reveal what that actual thing is, which I'm not particularly cognizant of myself. And that's that's where I go, okay, that that's where a benefit could be provided to by an external force. And then, yeah, we can talk perhaps afterwards of of whether, you know, AI could do this better or if a, you know, gym or a other type of way of doing that. I made a joke in the initial line of we're engaging in the male version of therapy, a. K. A. Podcasting.
And I see I see Colin in the chat says the male version of therapy is either I got to move forward either loading yourself working out, I'm sorry, isolating yourself working out intensely getting blasted drunk with friends or a combination of all three. And that's, there's a certain truth to that in that the reason that people engage in self destructive behavior is it's actually helping them in a way.
[00:23:15] Juan Granados:
Yeah. Like the thing I was gonna say, so like as he was talking about the, you know, say you go for a year, say that nothing comes about from a relationship perspective, not even close. And and then you go, okay, well, that might be a point of how the conversation with with someone around it just to kind of understand or go like to a more fundamental level if it is a fundamental level. And I guess this is my, like, I don't want to push against the idea of like a therapist because I'm sure that a therapist in and itself, the job that they like, the the value they provide to people, there's definitely good value out there for it.
But but there's, I guess, a small buts, not a big but. I'm trying to go, what is the fundamental thing that a therapist helps to do for somebody else? And I still kind of go, they help you to understand at a really basic level, either your intents or your purposes or the reason why you have certain things that you might be trying to achieve that you can't see yourself. Or even why you behave in certain ways. And and often it's because it is a third person, non close to you, that you can also open up and share because it's one, kind of confidential. Two, they don't really know you. So if you bash the dog or you killed your kid driving or something else, it's it's kind of a confident you can tell that maybe you haven't told of anybody else. Take the example of Tim Ferriss. He was on Steven Bartlett and other someone else's podcast just recently. And, you know, he was again sharing how he almost committed suicide. And, even before that, when he was, sexually molested by his, was it the Family friend or something. Family friend's son, basically. He only ever shared it with one of his ex girlfriends and somebody else. No one else knew about it. And he'd never, never talked about it until he was talking to one of his, like an psychotherapist, basically. And she shared with him about how she had been molested when she was younger in a much worse way. Tim then shared that, that what happened to him with her. And eventually some he met someone out and about who basically was like, oh, you know, you write it. Story was he took four two two of the four hour work weeks. It was like a signing. Tim was signing it. This guy came up to him, and he was like, oh, can you do it for me and my brother? And Tim asked him, you know, what, what do you want me to write here for your brother? And the guy froze.
Be weird. So he was like, oh, look. Tim said to him, come back a little bit later. I'll sign it for you. The guy came back later and said to him, hey, my brother committed suicide, but we've kept his room all the same. And he really, really, like, loved what you've talked about. And I wish more people were talking about it. And that's kind of when the penny hit for him. I was like, all right, maybe I should share this particular bit of my story and share it and whatnot. And so like aspects of that where I go like, okay, say for him, he didn't, he kept it quiet and maybe it was, it was affecting him in some ways, but he was still a productive member or human and it didn't sound like in his circumstance, he went to a therapist or maybe he did, I don't know, but didn't sound like he went to a therapist continuously to improve whatever happened. It ended up being the just pure sharing what happened to him. And while it was hard and having conversations about it, it was the he made, he had conversations, he exposed it to the world and then things kind of came out from underneath that. So part of me goes, if in a year's time, you for yourself, that's not working.
I still gotta go, which is the but bit. It's like, Yeah, but what you're going to get off from it is this kind of more open, honest conversation where you're trying to explore, you know, maybe fundamental reasons as to why it's all working. But I see everyone has a potential, whether it was using technology or just a more pure sense of finding the time and space to be realistic with themselves and looking inwardly to kind of figure out, okay, well, what are those things? Because you know within yourself and all that therapy is doing, which again, getting back to it is helping to expose all of those various things that you already know is just difficult to either come out from you individually or you haven't spent enough time doing it. But the value and I see it, the value is it's almost like speed running it. You know, they, they generally know they've seen if someone's got the problem of say, suicide. The example was Tony Robbins is a famous video of Tony Robbins of a guy with red shoes that looks a little bit like dopey. And he's at his, you know, big event of the pelotonous. I mean, it's like I haven't. You haven't seen it. So for those who haven't, you know, this guy, gets up on the microphone. He's gonna tell you he rubs a van and he basically goes like, I'm suicidal. Like, I'm gonna commit suicide at any point now.
And then so Tony kind of coming over to him and his Tony's talked about it in separate podcasts and conversations. It's for those particular individuals, it's about kind of take, you know, shifting the conversation, take them off the feet, make them focus on something else, show them laughter, show them anger, show them how dumb what they're saying is to get them into a different path. And so in this particular one, Tony kind of comes up to him. He's making a couple of jokes. The guy was wearing red shoes. So, you know, he asked him like, Hey, are you going to commit suicide because you're red, you're silly red shoes? And the guy's like, Wait, what? And he said, Yeah, pretty dumb shoes. And everyone laughs. He laughs. And then Tiger goes like, Oh, you know, you're laughing. You know, it'd be kind of a shame if you let that laugh go, you know, by killing yourself. And through it, it goes a bit longer than the conversation kind of, you know, he ends up like crying, they hug it out and you can tell the guy kind of gets gets past whatever was in his mind just to make sure that that is the exact opposite of therapy. Well,
[00:28:37] Kyrin Down:
Tony Robbins is the epitome of
[00:28:40] Juan Granados:
the anti therapist. I don't know if he's actually, he might be a qualified therapist. I actually see you, I'll look it up. No way, no way, man.
[00:28:50] Kyrin Down:
That's a 100% the opposite of therapy,
[00:28:53] Juan Granados:
what you just described. He is not. He is not. But it's like it's it's it's his and honestly, I haven't looked into it enough, but it was like, that's how he treats all toxic people and, you know, whether right or wrong, apparently has worked with a lot of people. Yeah. That's all that's what I'm saying is. That's definitely not. I think a lot of the therapy is getting you to understand what you already know or what you want to know, but generally comes from you as opposed to coming from them directly. Yeah,
[00:29:21] Kyrin Down:
I like kind of common theme of like, okay, don't
[00:29:25] Juan Granados:
just go back to that. So if to be sitting right now, if a year went by and you're like, my relationship, like relationships aren't working for whatever reason, I still kind of go sitting here right now I'd go, I don't know if you're gonna get any value from going to a therapist. Because I know that you're someone who can retrospect review, have a look at other things that you're gonna if you were sitting here tonight, you're like, if I externally could see you and be like, oh, you're not doing just doing the same thing or, oh, you're not improving in this aspect of live or there's other efficiencies that are obvious. That'd be okay. There's probably benefit in talking about if, if that's something that you don't, but, but, and then here's the reality for people.
But then if, you know, if Karen's sitting there or someone else is sitting at home and, and, and if you think in your mind, you're like, oh, but I haven't shared this. I haven't talked about this and I haven't talked about that. That's when a therapist is good in the sense of, okay, well, it's sharing all these other things that sometimes you don't want to go on to again, you know, Cole pointed it out, but generally as guys, as opposed to girls in general, you're not going to find a group of guys where they're like, I had a really tough time about this and you know, what are you thinking about and wanting to support? And as much as guys know about that, you don't really do it just as in general, unless the it's a very open group where you do that kind of naturally, but most often you're kind of holding back. There's male aspects to that. There's, you know, trying to be the brave person or the solitude, solemn individual. Again, not always the case. I'm rational. I'm generalizing, but for the most part, it's I can see the therapy being a good thing. If it's, if there's certain things that you know are beneficial to open up with someone that you just don't or, you know, social kamikaze reasons you're not going to go and do. Yeah,
[00:31:04] Kyrin Down:
the I think there's the difference between the introspection aspect and the understanding aspect the because you can have you can be nth degree introspective and that can actually be awful because you're thinking too much, analyzing too much and you get yourself into, trouble by essentially thinking too much, if anything. I was chatting with my brother the other day and it, because because I had a moment where I was like, what the fuck am I doing? And it was related to pretty much this issue of talking with girls, not talking with girls, finding a partner. And, the main outcome was like, you're probably a bit too smart and smart in the sense of you think too much. Not that's not necessary. And those two things kind of like come together.
You won't be able to think to to like reason. Yeah, well, I guess like smartness IQ is probably linked to link to like being able to do multiple levels of of thinking and not just like surface level. And, the main commonality of all the people in this book, I would say, is they didn't have people they could 100% talk through or like feel understood by. Perhaps the only, exception to that would be the the girl who's dying in the sense that, she probably just needed, an app yet that single person they didn't know at all. Because she had a partner who she could talk things with, family friends, she seemed like a very like well loved person and could communicate with these people. But she needed something external. Yeah, like a pure release valve. Most of the other people in this book seem to not have that being able to 100% say like, hey, this is exactly what's going on through my head and things like that.
So that that would probably be the the commonality. So yeah, I guess maybe you could say that that's what that guy was doing with Tony Robbins, but that's a very different environment. That's yeah.
[00:33:24] Juan Granados:
Therapy in front of thousands of people. I'm not sure is a. Yeah, but like like the other one I've always like I've heard the time and I saw someone on my social do something recently where, you know, there's some, there's a certain group of people, not everyone, but certain group of people who go to, relationships like couple counseling, a racial therapy before and they say like, you know, before there's any problems, like obvious when there's problems. Okay, makes sense. But there's another group of individuals who, or couples who go when there isn't any problems and they kind of call that as, yeah, yeah. But, you know, we do that because you get ahead and you've learned the techniques of how to deal with masculine energy and feminine energy. And again, there was a Tony Robbins event over in Mexico just recently about this and that you have all these conversations. But again, as I like hear what they share when they go to it, it strikes me as yes. But like the what I'm hearing from therapy is that you're learning or that you're investing energy in all time into learning something, becoming better and improving. Would you get in my default kind of goes to get that you can there's so many ways you can do that without the exclusivity of going down the therapy path nor spending something. Now, again, there is benefit in when you invest some sort of money, your capital, into doing something, then you do invest yourself more into doing it because you've put money on the line. You put a little bit of skin on the line. So then you care more about it and will do something. So if it's for that reason, you know, maybe that's also a good thing, but it's like like some some level of incentive. But when I see that again, I kind of go, how do you see other options and opportunities that you can take? It doesn't have to be exclusively the therapeutic way. Even though it's even though it is a good option for quite a few people. For sure. Yeah. Let's jump into the boostagram lounge and then we'll talk about some of the kind of modern day therapy options as well as the
[00:35:13] Kyrin Down:
mail, the mail question. And, you're not going to struggle one because we actually did get some boostograms coming in, but the Satoshi stream is not working at the very point. That's so I don't see any on the Toshi Stream. Yep. So I'm going to just jump into where I can actually see them. So, we go into fountain here, gonna, income and I got a boost. So we did actually get a couple come in. I saw this week from a fountain will load. We got two coming in
[00:35:50] Juan Granados:
from here. I guess you want to see Peter.
[00:35:52] Kyrin Down:
Yeah. So, we've got one one from True Fans. This was from the late bloomer actor. He says, I keep saying on Pod News and to True Fans CEO Sam Sethi, beef of the won't become mainstream until it's a system with fiat currency. No wallets, no sats. And he sent, I think, 15 sats, but that was probably more. That was probably probably 50 to 100 ish. So yes. Thank you. Agreed, mate. The the it will become easy. It will become easy. And who will make it easy? The question is. That's a. Yeah, that's a very good question. I'll read out Peter's Bruce as well. Yep. He sends I'm assuming
[00:36:31] Juan Granados:
probably a total of 2,000 or something like that. Just two twenty two is what I'm assuming.
[00:36:35] Kyrin Down:
Or it could be 1,100. I think 1100.
[00:36:39] Juan Granados:
Yeah. 1100. Yeah. He said, this is from the, enjoy your fucking life or you're gonna die episode we did last week. I have to agree with one, having young kids, especially on the two, adds additional complication to any plants. Dealing with poops, for example, everywhere I go these days, I need to think about what to do with a literal pile of human shit. Yes. You do. Leaning on routine is inevitable. Also, don't forget, babies develop better with repetition and generally are much happier with familiarity. As a parent, you do it subconsciously for them.
Yep. No. Absolutely. And, Peter, I was gonna say to Karen earlier before the podcast as well, my little one's going through the phase of, emotionally dealing with big emotions as well and tantrums and the terrible twos. And again, it's it's crazy in in the sense of familiarity and routine is so good. But at the same time, man, it makes me go crazy, you know, doing almost the same thing without having a little bit of differentiation. So I went after that podcast last weekend, I went to the running track with my little one. She loved it, like love, love running. So it was something different that we did one morning. And then yesterday, apart from going in the morning to socialize run club for a walk and coming home after soccer, all I did was stay at home, Just stay at home and then go shopping. I stayed at home. We did play and we get to do all these various things. But just the being at home and the routine and the familiarity and you know, it's looking likely I'm gonna do the same thing today. I was like, Oh, man. I'm craving. I'm craving some adventure. So like the balance between that to just going and doing something that's it's it's it's a it's a weird tough feeling. Again, let's go back to therapy.
That's the one where I'm like, if I baby didn't have as many parents that I know around me or there wasn't the evident amount of information that I can find, that might be something that I'd be okay. Maybe it's worth talking to someone about that. And it's weird. I don't have to be a specialist about it, but it would be maybe trying to help me understand, okay, what's this craving of adventure or doing something different and going for the shiny thing, whatever it may be, as opposed to understanding the reality of it. No. I could see that if it wasn't easy enough for me to just go find that information myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But fucking fucking kids, man. It's just kids. Chuck them out. But let's talk about let's talk about other therapies in general, like, male therapists,
[00:38:56] Kyrin Down:
therapies that we we do. I'll be doing a couple of little quick stats here. So there's just AI spinning this out at me, but it makes sense based on what she was saying in the book as well. One survey found forty one percent of women had been to therapy compared to twenty nine percent of men. And the that seems to just be like a general type ratio is that women are much more likely to seek out therapy. Women are also much more likely to be therapists is I believe the other the other stat that I know. So I guess this gets to I mean, like, what neither of us particularly qualified to say why that is but in general, females talk more within their groups about more emotional topics, I guess. And then more related to like external things.
In general, I would say like sports and random shit like that. So that was just a general random thing. But it was saying a little thing here of what are Australian men talking about in therapy. And this was from mid last year that they were talking about this. What do you reckon some of the topics that men are talking about in six topic topics tend to reoccur amongst men? Loneliness. Yeah. Now that.
[00:40:27] Juan Granados:
Anger.
[00:40:29] Kyrin Down:
Let me see if that's. Yep. Depression, anxiety, anger and addiction. It's got two of them.
[00:40:39] Juan Granados:
I was going to say like depression, loneliness is another one, but I guess they've put them all into one.
[00:40:46] Kyrin Down:
You were talking about one just before. Was I? Yeah. As in like one minute ago. No. Parenting.
[00:40:57] Juan Granados:
Oh, okay. They grouped out as like, okay, I was thinking more like emotion. Okay, parenting, death.
[00:41:03] Kyrin Down:
No, no death in here. No death. We're all going to live forever. We're going to live forever.
[00:41:09] Juan Granados:
We've reached the threshold. We've reached the threshold. It's not a problem to worry about.
[00:41:13] Kyrin Down:
No, I don't know. What about. The separation and divorce. Hi. Yeah. Intimacy issues or concerns. Yep. And this particularly sexual related, so like erectile dysfunction, sex addiction, things that are considered shameful, perhaps. So perhaps, even fantasies and things like that would fall under that. And then number two was identity and masculinity, which, that's one that I've always never understood. I think masculinity, masculinity is it's almost like the most boring topic for me. I don't I don't know why. It's never one that I've found like men. Am I am I masculine enough? Am I?
[00:41:58] Juan Granados:
Yeah, I don't think I've ever thought that. Yeah, I think I've ever thought that. Which is funny, because
[00:42:04] Kyrin Down:
I, you know, maybe in some ways I should because I think I mentioned the other week, like, I've got a lot of feminine type traits and the things that I seek out, and personality characteristics and things certainly put me on a more feminine spectrum. But I've never never worried about being masculine, which I don't know, it's odd. I find odd compared to other guys. So I'm like, dude, you're ticking off like all the masculine boxes, but you're worried about your masculinity? Like, fucking you've already got it, man. Yeah. I don't know. But certainly the other ones, I think we're all relatively relatable in terms of why you would
[00:42:42] Juan Granados:
go to have that conversation. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:42:47] Kyrin Down:
So yeah, those those are just some of the things that that men are seeking out. Would I consider going to the gym therapy or, I think probably not. I think that solves some of the, perhaps like hormonal, the physical issues, you know, doing things that, you know, playing sports, going outside, you get in the sunlight, you're raising your heart rate, you're doing things that are going to be physically beneficial for you. And physical health translates into mental health as well. You know, I think they're pretty intimately linked. So I think we probably try and solve more of the physical related stuff, the kind of engineering approach. Yeah. The woman has a problem at home, male partner says a whole bunch of things of how to fix that problem. And she's like, that's not what, like, I didn't come to you looking for a fucking solution.
I just wanted to be heard and understood. So females probably get more of that side of things. They nail that side, whereas the men are more solving the the actual tangible, here's what you can practical you can do in the next five minutes or next day or next week to solve that. And then vice versa. Men are probably really shitty at the understanding emotional context reasons for why you're perhaps implementing the changes and females, I'm guessing, struggle more with the practical like, all right, I'm feeling lonely. Here's five things I can do to make more friends or, you know, talk and read this book or etcetera, etcetera. So once again, generalizing here.
Yeah. Do you would you consider going to the gym therapy as
[00:44:38] Juan Granados:
a in the context that we've talked about here? Yeah. In a way, yes, I would. And again, I've often probably last ten years, I'll just say more, more maybe it's like it it always was a physical thing for to from the beginning. Absolutely. And still is right. But yeah, more probably say like ten years now of the the routine, the ability of just going through the the the emotion regulations, the, like, known hormonal releases that you get from a training, whether it's a run or a swim or a gym workout, whatever helps you to kind of just be a little bit more stable. So I would say I would put it in that category. I was gonna ask you this. So I'm trying to kind of go a little bit more fundamental.
If you were like, I won't make it dumb. But if you were just very, very low emotions, so not zero emotions, like zero zero emotions, but very, very low. So, you know, happiness was little blips and sadness with little blips and anger and everything. Would that sort of individual really need to go to therapy if emotions are almost void? So in the example that you gave about, for yourself on relationships and not it doesn't work for a year. Right. And I'm assuming that an emotion at the end of that year, if it doesn't come about, maybe sadness that's attached to the loneliness, maybe a bit of frustration. But if those emotions were like barely perceptible, like so so low, would you still think then that you would need or require therapy? It would depend if
[00:46:09] Kyrin Down:
the reason that I'm not feeling emotions is because I'm damping them down. The kind of a strategy for not dealing with negative stuff in your life is to fucking numb yourself to nothingness. And people can sometimes do this with drugs, but you can I could see a way of you emotionally being able to rationalize things, doing it purely intellectually to cut everything at the knees and then having like this bubbling, I guess, like inner core of turmoil, but on the surface not displaying it? So that would be like, it doesn't look like he's an emotional person, but perhaps he is. Or, you know, there's I'm sure that that's probably something you'd need to see, like, as a kid, what were they like as a kid If they were just a kid who was just like meh and everything, then that's probably fine. But yeah, I'd say if you're not feeling things, it's the rare
[00:47:23] Juan Granados:
type of person, I would say. Well, I guess I was trying to just think whether, you know, ultimately whether therapy or if you want to call fitness therapy or walking therapy or just talking to a friend as therapy or whatever you want to designate as that, if it's really just fundamentally like regulating your emotions to a point that it's understandable so that you can do something about, because I'm just thinking a kid, my daughter, she's young, she's going to go, she's going through these big emotions. Right. And, and part of that, you know, you don't have to call it therapy, but it's, she doesn't understand what, how to handle emotions like this. And so you have to kind of talk her through and help her out with these sort of things. So similarly, I'm just kind of wondering at the end, is it just a case of regulating emotion? What does regulate mean? Does that mean
[00:48:09] Kyrin Down:
finding an outlet for, like an socially acceptable outlet for something you're feeling? Does that mean intentionally squashing it in the moment so that you could release it later? Does that mean? Yeah, I guess it would depend on what that what that actually means.
[00:48:29] Juan Granados:
Yeah, I you know, you're right. Again, I'm just thinking the example that you put, which I think is a good one. If in a year's time, I think happens from relationship. You could at that point, still be like, ah, like I'm not super sad. I'm doing all the things I still enjoy. You're happy because you're training and things are improving and all other aspects of life are fine. And you could say, it's sad and slowly, but it's not that bad. It's like, okay, I guess it's not really the emotion part of it, but you'd still want that. You can still very much like, Oh my God, but I still want that. So I want this therapist to kind of help me figure out what it is that I'm doing here that isn't helping me achieve this. I guess maybe like I guess I was trying to say if it's just emotions, but it sounds like it isn't. Might not just be emotions itself that it tries to work through. This is where it could be the the
[00:49:17] Kyrin Down:
the step behind. I know if I dedicated if I just wiped my slate clean in terms of my routine, I have the capacity to go out twelve hours a day, do everything I can to put me in positions where I will meet females and I'm
[00:49:35] Juan Granados:
I'm sure I'd find a partner very quickly. This is my this is my challenge though, I think. And I because I kind of go, what if you did that and you didn't Like what? So so let's just say theoretically, you go I go blank slate, you go hardcore at it and you still don't. Is it then a case of, you know, it might not be the case. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm investing more time and so it's giving me more probability for it. But will it be, you know, will it decrease the odds? Because, you know, when you aim for something so ridiculous, like, you know, if you aim for happiness ridiculously hard, you don't find it, but you kind of have to aim for something adjacent or something else that you care for. And then you'll achieve that. Yeah,
[00:50:17] Kyrin Down:
the the tricky thing would then be like, if you you put all of your effort into finding a like a partner like that. They ask, what are you doing with your life? And you're like,
[00:50:31] Juan Granados:
approaching.
[00:50:34] Kyrin Down:
How the fuck do you answer that? You know, so there's, the question then would be like, alright, your standards too high, are they are your standards too high because you're, you're afraid of intimacy or afraid of having something change your life? Are you, you know, there's, there's all these things where it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm 100% certain if I did that, I'd find a partner and you know what? I, I would then just have a different problem in my life and it would be just as consuming, would feel just the same as much as this one now. So it's like, all right, well, that's that's not going to be the solution. Yeah, correct. And this is probably the there's two things I was going to bring up the AI stuff in this point, which was whilst reading the book, I got to the very end and she had this last paragraph where she talks about the.
Let me read up the title of the last, it's not a pause in the conversation. Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah, a pause in the conversation is the the last paragraph. And you might go like, okay, so this is the point where she's kind of like getting towards the end of her therapy. She feels like she's about to leave. And they call that a termination of of the therapy. Yeah. And throughout this whole period of reading it, I'm going like, okay, well, these people have like multi complex, varied problems. At what point do they stop or do they do they find a solution? Or do at what point does the therapy, end? Is there an end date for this kind of like counseling in a way?
And even midway through, she was saying like, oh, you know, there's this period where people feel like they're doing better. They started to implement some things. This is the most dangerous period. They actually need to be coming to therapy more at this time, right? Because they're more likely to backslide or, you know, feel like they've fully accomplished what they feel like they set out to do when they're not necessarily finished. They've just taken the first step. The first step feels great. But then there's still 1,000 steps to take
[00:52:45] Juan Granados:
to get Sounds like good money. Yeah, sounds like a good money system.
[00:52:49] Kyrin Down:
And this and this is where I kind of left the book being a bit confused going. There was no real, I feel like framing of what What is what when would therapy ends? Like, what are the kind of like, what are your risks? What is the set success metrics? Are your things that go like, okay, cool. You should terminate. And usually it seems to be people just say, I feel like I don't need to come anymore, which I guess is the whole reason why they go. It's like, I feel like I should go to therapy. Very vague, very vague and wishy washy, which is fine. I guess it's all about emotion. So you know, you're not going to have concrete data of, you know, achieve XYZ goal and then therapy therapy can then commence or end.
So but I did feel the framing of it was gone. Okay, I still don't understand when, when she thinks an acceptable time to end or what other type of things that should happen or could happen for for that to be like, yeah. And that's why a pause on the conversation. The pause could be the rest of their lives and they never see each other again. Or it could be okay, this is just a pause in our therapy. And, you know, I might be back in two weeks time, I might be back in two years time. Yeah, ten years time. So that was one one point where I left a bit confused.
The other one, this was published in 2019. So just pre COVID, and also just pre AI. And I think I'd be very interested to hear her thoughts on the business side of things, which she touches on slightly. Because it is a business as well. And most of these are therapists, they kind of seem to be like they're more self operated, but perhaps they'd be in a small group with others. So there'd be perhaps like a building with which is set up to have, you know, multiple therapists working out of it, but they each seem to be working independently, the, they have to kind of like, source their own clients in a way sort of deal.
And so she talks about, you know, advertising in terms of, you know, come in for one, one free session. If you feel like you've got some benefit or those things to work through, then you can come back and do more paid ones. That's more like the this is real advertising type behavior marketing. You can market yourself to certain niches of you know, I'm a couple's therapist, I'm a therapist related to divorce or divorcees. You know, I'm a single female. So I appeal more to the single female who will perhaps be understood or something like that. And the thing that she briefly mentions, like, oh, now there's this kind of like little rise of text therapy, but I felt it was impersonal, didn't get to the heart of what a therapist can provide and stuff. And I'm going like, damn, girl, like AI therapy is here. Yes. You know, I'd, I'd be curious to know how her business is going. Yes. I record it probably would have peaked or like really picked up during COVID in the sense of perhaps she would have had to have converted to online therapy, I'm guessing. Well, yes, business could have been good, really good for a bit. And then now it's like, alright, well, if it if we're all used to online therapy, how very different is that compared to just AI therapy? True, but I disagree
[00:56:26] Juan Granados:
because it's a generational thing and it's likely that so take for instance a divorcee or relationships and I'll just generalize it. Let's just say it's older than 25, generally maybe 35 years old, 40 years old. I still it still doesn't strike me that a general 40 year old will default to AI or technology first. They probably go to a person first, especially if they can pay and that's more of a guarantee versus the zone guarantee with AI or something to that effect or even if therapy is not a guarantee, there's trial and proven methods in there that maybe you just don't even know how to ask an AI. Whereas if it's a, kid's therapy, let's just say for instance, I would probably say there's way more likelihood that a kid in today's world, 12 year old, would be like, I'm just gonna ask this AI and talk to the AI. Why would I go and talk to a therapist? That makes all the sense to me. So but eventually eventually is it becomes a more mainstream thing that everyone's using. Yeah. I could see that being a super challenge for me. Is the, you know, part of the reason of loneliness,
[00:57:28] Kyrin Down:
I assume is there's less physical connections with people, we're going more digital. Great in some ways, because you can connect with other people across the world. A lot of people, you know, people would maybe even say that World of Warcraft is a type of therapy because they're meeting like minded people, they can communicate in, you know, perhaps a format which is less intense than the physical eye contact, all of the the physical body language and interpreting that can be talked about, you know, going to a thing at the gym recently where a bunch of guys from the gym, a couple of girls as well, got together for a goodbye thing. And, you know, the mingling dynamics of eight people in a bar is is it's complex, man. Sure. It's complex. And certainly for a bunch of people, that's not their preferred avenue for communication. And so I could see the digital helping a lot of people.
And then also for other people that the more digital is actually causing them to be more isolated. So they would actually seek out a physical therapist. Yeah. Yeah. And you you got to have the you got to know we're going to have all all options available. So it depends. Are there more Weebos in the world or are there more extroverts? That's the question. That's that's the real question. That's your your whole business is gonna depend on if you think there's more Weebos or if there's more there's more
[00:58:57] Juan Granados:
real lifers. More real lifers. I think ultimately for me with, you know, what's what's the defining factor in today's world that I would say, to make you go somewhere like a personable therapist as a, like a human as opposed to using like every other option that's available. I kinda say, and this is just an old thing, that a well formed question is half the answer. Same thing goes for the well formed prompt or an incantation or whatever. If you don't really know what the right question is and you don't have the tools, techniques, information, and people to figure out the question, then, yeah, I can see it being good because what therapists are good for is understanding what the real question, the underlying thing is, and whether that's something else that you need to, like, face, helps them understand that. So, you know, I'm not saying this is the answer, the reality of the question. But if in a year's time, you kind of go, Oh, man, why am I not finding a girl or a relationship?
They might be a therapist might go, actually, yeah, that's that's a wrong question ultimately and helping you understand. I mean, it's like, actually, the real question is why do you still feel like you're not adequate enough to be the man to bring it something to that effect. Right. And then people on their own might be might not get to that point and go, oh, shit, that was my unlock that I needed. Actually, if you just focused more in training and you're sleeping and doing things that, you know, mastery or whatever, I'm reading mastery at the moment, you might go, oh, that's what I needed. And all right, you then you succeed. So, but then there's other people who might be able to figure out the right question themselves where whatever go for a month and you feel really lonely and they might in a smart way, which is by thinking, Okay, well, is that really the question is, let me, let me just think it through and figure out. Actually if I read three biographies and I talked to two people and I talked to this other person and actually it might be this that's the problem with me and then I'll retrospect on that and try to improve on that and then again, fantastic. So if you could figure out the question yourself to begin with and then follow the path, cool. I think you don't need that pay the extra money, but paying someone money directly, one incentivizes you, two, they have seen the routine across other people. I think the most powerful thing I've I've always like kind of like settled in from a therapeutic perspective, and I've said this to a lot of people, is whenever I hear, like, some genuine concerns or people, you know, problem and even myself when I complain about it, it's the realization or I'll spin it in the in the non kind way and then I'll say it in a calm way. The non kind way it is, shut the fuck up. Like everyone, everyone has experiences or worse. What a stupid complaint.
The kind way is like, yes, it is suffering. Yes, it is difficult. Yeah. But be okay in the feeling that everyone else has gone through this at some point. You're not unique in that factor. That non uniqueness is is a beautiful thing in the you are insignificant in the universe, but that also gives you a bit of an unlock as well around and even even saying that that means like who cares improve and just do what you can top of the deal. And for some people that's not actually beneficial. Correct. Absolutely. That's what I'm saying. I gave you the, there's like kind, even the kind is probably not even kind, kind, but there's a non kind way which some people would like froth. Fantastic.
I know I myself, you know, whatever. I can give you a billion examples. I'm sure there's been an example where I'm like tired and annoyed and grumpy and I slept three hours and I've I've got to do this and I'm a man complaining. And, you know, it's the general for guys probably unkind to yourselves and kind of others and on the kind of as like, what am I complaining about? Like, there's a bazillion things that could be worse. Like, shut the fuck up. Like, it could be absolutely worse. Now there's you could say it was like a gratitude perspective. It's whatever else. You know, it's the slang of, you know, yourself at 20 years old would have dreamed to have these fucking problems. So like, what are you complaining about? You know, if you, if you want to be in the arena, be prepared to get a couple of wounds. You know, it's all this sort of shit where it's like, okay, fine, you can therapeutically dose yourself with that sort of stuff. And it helps me.
Of course, that's not going to help other people. And then you've got to figure out what the what's the shit that actually helps you to be like, help out with whatever problem you're in. You heard it here first once,
[01:03:02] Kyrin Down:
claiming that men are kinder to others and females aren't.
[01:03:06] Juan Granados:
I think specifically as every men, males are kinder to others and unkind to ourselves. Yeah. The I would put it this way. The
[01:03:15] Kyrin Down:
one of the main also qualms I had of this, which is she had a good therapist and I'm assuming she's saying she's a good therapist as well in the book. The vulnerability of exposing yourself, I could see the questions that they're asking people. If therapists want to lead them down a wrong path or a, you know, a selfish path, I feel that would be super, super easy. That's happened before heaps. Like, there's men. So I I remember reading an example
[01:03:47] Juan Granados:
of a couple's counselor that led this particular female down a path that she would leave a husband to get with him. Like that was a noise. Like, man, I'm sure that happens. And and why does that happen? Because when you put yourself in a more vulnerable position, you're then able to be influenced much more easily. Right? That's a very common place thing. So it can be, yep. Part of it is authority to work. You have to be vulnerable to share that stuff. But then it puts you at the mercy of the guidance of this person. So a good one. Fantastic. But in a bad case, like, man, that could be really problematic. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I would probably say the same with AI. If you,
[01:04:25] Kyrin Down:
you know, scouting on someone's got a model and they've adjusted certain parameters, they put certain things into it. Yeah. You make them more liberal. Liberal, you know, make them more. Make whatever. Make them. Make them hate nuclear power. Make them like this cult that I'm developing. And, you know, his. Oh, have you thought about the,
[01:04:45] Juan Granados:
you know. I see you've got a problem with your one hour handset, but if you joined this cult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Might improve. Yes, yes. Correct.
[01:04:52] Kyrin Down:
So I would, I would certainly be that that's another kind of thing where it's like, alright, there's something to think about if you're going into, you know, trying to fix a problem. You want people to understand you. And that's, I guess, half of the battle of feeling understood, but then also the practical solution aspect of it. The Yeah, just realizing that okay, that's you can get some really shitty practical advice as well. And that's why probably you actually don't want that much practical advice from from your therapist. That's, you know, they can
[01:05:30] Juan Granados:
Yeah, it's it's kind of like, you know, you don't go to the, you know, to the trailer park and go and ask a couple of people, you know, give me some some idea and practical advice about making, you know, money or like being successful in the money business perspective. You know, you might you could, but you might not be getting the best information that you possibly could. You know, if you go to a,
[01:05:50] Kyrin Down:
a tiler, your roof, you've got a problem with your house. There's a leak in the roof or something. You know, a tiler is going to suggest a certain thing compared to a carpenter who's gonna suggest something else compared to like, you know, it could be the same problem. Like the light bulbs not working. The tiler is saying like it's water coming in through the roof. The electrician saying it's the, you know, the plant, the, the wiring, the fucking manufacturer saying you need to just replace the light bulb. It's the same problem, but the solution
[01:06:19] Juan Granados:
is different. Is different. And same with incentives, right? Like if you've got like she was talking about a business model, you know, if they've got a particular business model where it's higher, we need you to be on here for eight, sixteen, twenty four sessions, two years. You know, if you know, they might not be incentivized to get you all sorted in three sessions, it'll be like, oh, no, no, no, you need to keep coming back. And, even though they maybe know that they're able to go and do it themselves, they keep on the hook for that sweet, sweet money that comes through. So, you know, there's incentives as well that people got to watch out for. Yeah, they, fifty minute sessions are apparently the norm of, for therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And why that is? I have no idea. But. Well, yeah, all you have to do is listen to the Me and Mortals podcast. We give you more than fifty minutes every Sunday morning. So all you need to do is you come in, you sit down 9AM. By the time we finish, you're dumber. So it's fantastic. You've settled in. You feel superior
[01:07:10] Kyrin Down:
because of what we've talked about. So I hope you enjoyed that. Don't even have to pay, but you can. You can. So we, very much appreciate Peter late bloomer actor for sending in some support. Correct. You would like to do that as well. Me and mortalspodcasts.com/support. A couple of different ways you can do that. Simply like reaching out to us, joining any of the social media, giving us topic suggestions you'd like to hear from or about, leaving comments, reviews, joining us in a live like Cole and Patricia have, and then also sending in a boostagram via an app like Fountain, Podcast Guru, Astomatic,
[01:07:47] Juan Granados:
True Fans, things like that is very much appreciated. Correct. And we'll leave it there. Yeah. Thank you very much then for tuning in live. For those who are listening afterwards, be well wherever you are in the world. One out. Turn out.
