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The master does nothing .... yet he leaves nothing undone.
In Episode #503 of 'Meanderings', Juan & I discuss: why the mindset of mastery may matter more than the title of “master", Robert Greene’s book called Mastery, the role of obsession, whether teaching is required for mastery, “unearned” mastery and savant talent and a pragmatic take on how to design your own path toward improvement without sacrificing what matters most.
Huge thanks to Petar for the support, very much appreciated!
Stan Link: https://stan.store/meremortals
Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:01:08) Why read Robert Greene's 'Mastery'?
(00:04:54) Podcasting as a case study: from basics to refinement
(00:06:58) Local mastery vs global mastery and reference frames
(00:10:33) Choosing what to master: obsession, trade-offs and limits
(00:13:16) Mastery as mindset vs outcome; daily improvement lens
(00:17:25) Boostagram Lounge
(00:19:00) Challenging outcome-first goals; internal vs external focus
(00:21:11) The costs of global excellence and life balance
(00:24:39) Prioritising self-mastery: emotions and immediate circles
(00:26:29) Unearned talent? Kyrgios, training minutiae and masters
(00:32:56) Reframing goals: skills, learning and public speaking
(00:35:00) Applying lessons like biographies, not blueprints
(00:39:11) Do you need to teach to be a master? Savants vs transferable methods
(00:41:14) Mastery (process) vs Master (status)
(00:45:59) Wrap-up and ways to support
In Episode #503 of 'Meanderings', Juan & I discuss: why the mindset of mastery may matter more than the title of “master", Robert Greene’s book called Mastery, the role of obsession, whether teaching is required for mastery, “unearned” mastery and savant talent and a pragmatic take on how to design your own path toward improvement without sacrificing what matters most.
Huge thanks to Petar for the support, very much appreciated!
Stan Link: https://stan.store/meremortals
Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:01:08) Why read Robert Greene's 'Mastery'?
(00:04:54) Podcasting as a case study: from basics to refinement
(00:06:58) Local mastery vs global mastery and reference frames
(00:10:33) Choosing what to master: obsession, trade-offs and limits
(00:13:16) Mastery as mindset vs outcome; daily improvement lens
(00:17:25) Boostagram Lounge
(00:19:00) Challenging outcome-first goals; internal vs external focus
(00:21:11) The costs of global excellence and life balance
(00:24:39) Prioritising self-mastery: emotions and immediate circles
(00:26:29) Unearned talent? Kyrgios, training minutiae and masters
(00:32:56) Reframing goals: skills, learning and public speaking
(00:35:00) Applying lessons like biographies, not blueprints
(00:39:11) Do you need to teach to be a master? Savants vs transferable methods
(00:41:14) Mastery (process) vs Master (status)
(00:45:59) Wrap-up and ways to support
Connect with Mere Mortals:
Website: https://www.meremortalspodcasts.com/
Discord: https://discord.gg/jjfq9eGReU
Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/meremortalspods
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[00:00:06]
Juan Granados:
Welcome back. Mere Mortalites. We've got another session of the Meanderings. We're, it's the November 30, 09:19AM. We're usually live at roughly around the 9AM time period on Sunday. Juan did not master his time. I did not master my timing, and yes, we are gonna be talking about mastery. We got Juan here. Kyrin here in the afternoon. Look, Meanderingsis a chance for us to just be open with a conversation deep hearted, with it. Deep conversation with lighthearted touch, and we'll probably lay towards more of the lighthearted nature with with deep topics as well. Now, I like the the path that Kyrin's been taking as of late, which is Kyrin hasn't been doing any of the book reviews of light does focuses otherwise in life, but we've been talking about books in general that you're talking about, or like reading and Yeah. Content saying that.
In those books. For sure. For sure. And so mine's pretty obvious coming off the actual book, which is Mastery by Robert Greene. And it doesn't take too much to kind of figure out what this book is about or or is it or is it that that's that's an interesting point of the question. So I will be doing a book review and a bit of review on the the actual lessons and and whatnot. The tech, if I had to ask you without because Karen has read this a long time ago. Yeah. Do you recall why you picked up this book and why you wanted to read it and if it gave you what what you were thinking the book would be about A true perspective? Well, my my basic was I've read
[00:01:28] Kyrin Down:
48 Laws of Power, although that was pretty good. I might have even read The Art of Seduction at some point. And was like, okay, yeah, you know, the 48 laws of power is good mastery. I'd like to master something perhaps or know how people go about doing it. So yeah, I would read it. I don't remember a single thing from this book, I got to admit. So I was going through the chapters here. Discover your calling, the life's task, submit to reality, the ideal apprenticeship. We've got absorb the master's power, the mentor dynamic. Mentor. Then it goes into the
[00:02:07] Juan Granados:
social intelligence, emotional intelligence. Social intelligence,
[00:02:11] Kyrin Down:
awaken the dimensional mind, the creative act. Creative and then it actually into mastery. And then the intuitive with irrational mastery. Yeah. I got to say, like, and it's from what I can tell, it's pretty similar. You'd be able to say this, but he's looking at people from history, the Wright brothers, Santiago Calatrava, Martha Graham, Oki Matsuoka. I don't remember a single thing from this book. So the interesting
[00:02:39] Juan Granados:
thing about these books and I guess so I'll talk about mastery and its generality and we'll, we'll start with an interesting question. Have you finished it or you're just. No, I'm about halfway through right now and it didn't straight up back, like reading this book, wasn't what I expected it to be either. Maybe I would have said, I thought it'd be more instructional than it is storytelling and historical reviews. However, that shouldn't have actually been my, my viewpoint given that the 48 laws of power are maybe 30% instructional, 70%, more historical reviews and biographical type of nature. This one's even more biographical. There's probably like 95% biographical, 5% instructional. So less on the instructions. So if you're looking for something like that, obviously we'll talk about more book for you. But one of the aspects about mastery that it got me thinking was, I think so. Question for you here, Karan. What do you think right now are aspects of your life that Yeah.
The titles there that Yeah. Actually, I'll give you the question and then I'll talk about it so you can give some time. What are the things right now in your life would you say that you are trying to reach mastery on? It's kind of like the first caller. And the path that Robert Green is talking about there is, yeah, you typically have an apprenticeship, which is like a seven to ten year type of domain where you're doing your ten thousand hours and you're doing all this big learning. From that point in the end, you move into the ability to be creative. So once you know the rules and how to play the game, then you start being able to focus on more specific things about it. I would tell you that's where we kind of sit in a podcasting lens in that we went through the big period of years, six years of doing the podcast. We don't necessarily think about the light and set up with the camera or this, whatever. That's all now in the rudimentary expectations. We can now focus on, oh, you know, am I speaking a particular way? We don't even talk about um's and ahs and ahs, I should be saying that less. We still do, but more refined than what it used to be. In saying that, the final one is end mastery. And I haven't gotten to that point of this book, but it's insinuating around the twenty thousand hours, learning all these things from your mentors, blah blah. Like getting to a point that you are seen as the the master, the expert, the whatever that you know full well and can continue pushing the boundaries of what it means. So going into it, would you say that there's things that are clear in your mind that you wanna be either you think you're a master or that others would be like, Oh, yeah, Karen's a master in this?
[00:04:52] Kyrin Down:
No. No. To the first yes to the second. Okay. The no is I don't think there's anything I'm trying to master because when you talk about the ideal apprenticeship, the it's very easy to do something for a long time, and get good at that thing. But when I when you talk about mastery as a broad subject, I'm thinking you're, you're mastering a skill set that is wide in domain as well, like, you know, am I a master at walking upstairs? The answer, I guess, would be like, yes, in a sense that I can walk up pretty much any set of stairs. But can I walk up, you know, stairs that are tapped? Can I walk up 20,000 steps? Can I do it fast? Can I do it slow? Can I do it in a you know, there's the if you've seen that video of the guy running down backwards, kind of like sloping amphitheater, which has those like long Oh, yes, yes, yes? Yep. Am I a master of doing that? Obviously, no, because I'm not that guy.
So when I think of mastery in terms of things that I'm doing, when you talk about you mentioned the podcast, I would say like, I'm good at it, but am I doing the ideal apprenticeship of every day I'm trying to improve? No. Most of the times I'm coming here and it's autopilot. I'm not really striving for I got to get amazingly better at this thing. That being said, I've put enough hours into enough things, probably got enough natural talent and ordering of my life to get good at certain things. A girl at the gym came up to me. I said she's like, you've got a fanboy. I was like, Oh, is it Leo? Leo is my hype man. You know, this is the guy is always like talking me out. She's like, No, no, no. There was this guy, Dan. He says, he's Colombian guy. And apparently he's like, really impressed, wants to get into calisthenics and stuff and sees me doing the handstands and probably pull ups and other stuff that I do there. And it was like, wow, that guy's really fucking good.
Would I consider myself a master? No. Would he say I am? Maybe there's a decent chance. And we'll talk about Uruk again later. Who, you know, he's someone I would say like, Yeah, he's probably a master. He called himself an fucking amateur. And this is like, guys, if I can get to his level of one arm handstands, that would be epic. Amazing. I'd feel like I've kind of ticked ticked them off in a sense. And he's like, I'm an amateur compared to the the real good people. And it's just like, oh, man, if you're an amateur, I'm like a subhuman degenerate, you know, like I'm the the frickin lick of the squash snail under someone's toes and under their shoes. So, no, I I don't consider myself a master and I think would people consider me a master in some things? Perhaps perhaps I'm not not too sure. Yeah. It may make a good point because it is
[00:08:08] Juan Granados:
there's a strong piece of reference in that we live in a world and you can have local mastery and you're gonna mastery that starts come spinning out beyond. And if you consider every single human being, then things change dramatically. If you are defining though mastery as being at a top, let's just say some percentage that I like at the very top, and that's considered mastery, whether it's a skill set or an understanding or your ability to think, then yeah, that's gonna be really hard to achieve that. Like you say, you are seen as a master by most local examples. I would say you've current on the top in the top 50 handsets in Brisbane like that. I would say that's an easy feat. And so you go, okay, local mastery has been achieved. But of course, you go global and all of a sudden you're the nail.
You're the snail and people just stop stepping on you because shit, there's nothing good in that. So for me, so when I originally maybe picked up this book or wanted to read the book and I've thought about this previously with Josh Waitzkin's book around kind of like the the circle is getting tighter. It's just start learning and, the art of learning. There's aspects where I was like, okay, well, do I want to become the full price was, do I want to become a master at training or like lifting? No. Not really. That's that's not a particular thing. And I thought, oh, what about, you know, is he a podcasting or creating?
No. That's also not what I want to achieve mastery. When you were saying about stepping up the stairs, I think there's a there's a difference of delineation put on as proficiency at something and there's mastery. And you need a good sense of obsession about the particular thing that you're chasing to achieve not just local, but I say universal mastery that you'd need some absolute level of extreme thinking to get you past those particular levels because you're gonna have people out there who are just gonna be doing everything in their willpower and availability to make it happen. So I don't know if you ever want to become, you know, top like, if it was like, you wanna become a master at handstand where people are like, oh, globally, universally, he is one in the top 10.
Is that something that really would satisfy with what you need? No. No. No. No. Probably not. But also to get that is would be an inconceivable amount of effort or even maybe impossible based on genetics and structure and everything else. Right. So that's that's a reality. Kind of the same reality that went for me. The the part that I guess most interested me in reading of what I've read so far was not so much like the actual what the books about, but mastering in its generality was I dig the local mastery aspect more than the universal mastery. And I can get amongst what that would mean as success.
While avoiding the pitfalls of mastery in its global scale. I think you are in for a world of pain. Unless you're that committed, obsessed about something and becoming the best. It's so again, here's the other example, podcasting. I or or creating content. I could see myself that there would be benefit energy prioritization that I would put towards becoming a local master of the craft. So that's better with the lights and better than the conversation and the asking the questions and talking to people on a local level. And that might be Australia, that might be our city.
Easy enough. Well, not as much easy enough, but it's doable without impacting the rest of life. And so I could get committed and do that. And that that's like a step that's close enough to actually achieve. Not just proficiency and proficiency would be, I would say we're at proficient level in podcasting in that whether we do a live, not live, schedule something, do a book review, do a whatever, we can do them and we're proficient enough to make it happen. And it's at a possible quality that you'd go, oh, yeah. Those guys are podcasters. But I could see the the next step towards a local mastery as a as a possible and something I would wanna achieve. But that's where it ends because I've heard of the Chris Williamson's and your, Steven Bartlett or your Joe Rogan and what they have to do. Now Joe is probably a little bit different, but definitely Steven and Chris of the people that I've seen more directly.
The effort that they put towards, you know, not just them, but all the team members and the things that they have to prioritize to make global mastery occur is something that I just would not be able to achieve right now without breaking loads of other things in my life, and it wouldn't be worth it. And so that to me kind of screamed out as I was reading this being like, oh, this all makes sense at a local level. It doesn't make sense at the universal sort of global mastery level. But is that wrong? Do you reckon that's that's a that's just because I haven't found something that you should be like, everyone should find something to be a master of? No. A little bit Like, is that a problem? If you never become a master of something in your life at a global level, is that seen as detrimental as that issue? Failed as a human. No, no, I wouldn't I wouldn't call that.
[00:13:13] Kyrin Down:
There are two semi side thoughts to that, though. One is I think mastery is more the mindset rather than the outcome. So we'll talk about like the limitations, the especially physical limitations, things you can't do anything about. If you don't reach the success, accolades, the wonder, the fanboying of people, I still think you can become a master of something even if, like, you're physically limited at that thing. So let's just take, you know, before the Paralympics, for example, the there'd be, you know, people who had like one leg and they'd be swimming or they'd be blind and they'd be running or something like that. You know, they could I, I'd say, yeah, you could achieve mastery of a certain sport or something having that physical limitation and you could achieve that and no one would even know about it. No one know your name, no one would give a shit.
And so it's more the mindset of getting there of every day being going, you know, I've got sixteen hours of waking hours here, how can I use most of them to get me further to learn more to really be proactively going, this is where I can improve better? I think, was listening to I've been just watching some random baseball videos and other American sports seem to be just hitting me at the moment. So I'm accepting it. Ohtani, I think there was a video that I was watching or heard something about him. Maybe it was one of the other Japanese guys where it was talking about they used to just go to the batting cages. And they would just watch fastballs come in. They wouldn't even try and swing at the ball or do anything. They just watch it to get used to the speed of the ball. Yep. And, I saw another chart sheet with Ohtani was saying like, all right, now he wanted to become like number one in MBL MLB, MLB MLB draft or something.
And then there was like eight squares around that and it's like, what are the things that would make me get that one thing was like, karma. One was, like, hitting average or something. One was speed. One was agility. One was, you know, not getting injured. One was something else. And then there'd be another eight around like that would branch out. There'd be another eight around that. And for karma, he would do things like clean up for himself, be respectful to teammates, say, be respectful to umpires, things like this. And so he was, he was breaking it down. And essentially, I think that's what mastery is you, you're like a big goal. And then it's just breaking down, breaking down, breaking down until you're getting to have we cleaned our mics, you know, is this the optimal setup? Could we have, you know, altered the lighting and put the lighting just a little bit higher change the settings and things like that?
We're not doing any of that. I'm not I'm slightly doing that for the handstands. But even then, you know, I'm, I'll, I'll look at form checks. I'll there's a German dude on YouTube, who has some one arm handstand videos and things, and I've been listening slash relearning a little bit of German to to like tune into it to to figure out like, okay, what are like his particular tips? But I know in my heart of hearts, I'm not going and doing all of these absolute crazy things to master something. And so I think it's the mindset rather more than the end outcome.
[00:17:10] Juan Granados:
That's actually the no like the minds. The
[00:17:13] Kyrin Down:
end outcome matters, of course, because that's when it is master like you could have this mindset from well, not challenge that now day one of learning how to be the golf master, and it's like, well, you're you're still fucking really shit at golf. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll challenge that. I'll challenge that at the end, but I think we'll go to the, let me do the boostgram early. Sure. I'll we'll jump into boostgrams.
[00:17:32] Juan Granados:
Again, it's a it's a chance for us to call out people who have been supporting the podcast as well, and we'll talk about that second part of the call that you're talking about. I think that that hits the nail on what I wanted to talk about today. We've got the did I call that out? No. We did. Peter. Peter's got a big one here. So I was gonna read this out, came through on the November 24. I heard this interesting theory once. From an evolutionary caveman perspective, the way the human brain deals with a serious breakup is identical to dealing with death of a loved one. A very important person in your life is not there anymore and never will be again. In our brutal primitive caveman days, a modern breakup just wasn't a reality. A woman was likely either stolen or killed. Either way, the loss of a lover is traumatic event that affects you deeply. A modern breakup is an example of hyper novelty.
That's 222,000
[00:18:20] Kyrin Down:
using fountain. Thank you very much, though. Ducks, Peter. That was a great comment. Thank you, Peter. It kind of puts in perspective for me of 2020, 2021, which, yeah, I would say I was experiencing something like that. Was a bit mixed up because COVID was all happening at that same time. So it's like I think a lot of things were going on around then. But yeah,
[00:18:43] Juan Granados:
I'd give some credence to that. Yeah. I appreciate it. Peter, and again, if you want to support us, you can send through some some boosted fractional, Bitcoin that can be sent through in a valley for Valley way and using all the good podcasting platforms out there to do that. Yeah. So I wanted to challenge that idea because I think I've done this enough times to see the mistake. And I talked about it in the monthly goals partly, but I'll talk about it more deeply here. I had an annual goal which I've now canceled myself. Well, that aside. And the annual goal that I said was I wanted to create a new product ecosystem to reach $1,000,000 That's right. Yeah. So for the for the annual. Right. And I did pursue, I would say two formal to full formal ideas in through to see what would happen. And one we kind of stopped it. The other one, it was a still trying, but I was like, okay, I can see this is not going anywhere. There's part of me that doesn't care to progress that particular path down forward.
And the second example like that, where it's a maybe more so on an external result. Right? Or the single outcome. Where and this is again the learning for me. Every time almost every time that I put something like that, it's nine out of 10 doesn't sit well or even if it's achieved, it's not that great. Even when I've put the goals for myself on achieving 300 kilometers of move or 150 kilometers of whatever. Yes, often I do hit it and it does motivate me to go and do the various things. But again, the focus on the external outcome, I'll bring it back to mastery in a minute, is not as helpful, I think, as an internal reflection or actions to drive certain things that you wanna achieve. The the view towards global mastery or that that achievement of success in the comparison nature, I think, is fraud with danger.
Can can work for a lot of people. Absolutely. But it it might mean that you absolutely destroys destroy, get rid of all these other things that you really prioritize in the pursuit of one or two great things. I'll take an example of both of us, but we don't really know about, but because I becoming a gold medalist in the Olympics, as a 100 meters. It's very likely that unless you are genetically the goat or you just have a propensity to be great because everyone's shit at that particular year or something like that, you're probably giving up a lot of things. One random for those passing through our mind is something that I was reading here was imagine you're going for the Olympics. And as early on in the year, even just a tiny little thing would be Oh, you probably can't go out and be very social to see many people purely for the aspect of I don't want to be sick. We just want to don't get sickness from people around. So maybe you won't go into any group gatherings or anything like that. In a mass heaps of other reasons why you might not do certain things or for the achievement of one particular thing, which might be, hey, I wanna win a gold medal and become best in the world in this particular thing. I'm not hating on that. I think if you if you've got that personality or you want to achieve that for whatever it is, the reason that it is, brilliant. All power to you. But I've definitely realized upon myself, I don't want that. I don't wanna be masters. I go back to the original question. I don't have a master the best in the world at a particular thing. No way. I think that in myself, not helpful.
There's nothing that I could say to you right now that I would make me feel really overjoyed to be the absolute best at. Because being really great at something is probably like enough of a good thing that becoming the best in the world, There's no extra delta that really gives me that extra satisfaction in favor of how much stuff I would actually lose. Is that when you were saying about, you know, the mastery aspect is very much the, well, it's kind of the external out of the outcomes. I'd almost say not that not that it's probably wrong because some people could say that, yeah, that's what mastery means. But I would kind of go, I think the only mastery that should be cared for for any mortal out there is just mastery of oneself. And so that angle of not and and a lot of the times in this book, but I what I didn't like is that it is a comparison. It is a perspective with all of these other individuals who've done great things and achieve things.
And time and time again, it's like, oh, yep. They did this apprenticeship to become really great at this particular thing. And then they pursued the creative and then they become the world best or they did this amazing thing or they achieved this great stuff. So not taking that away. But what I'm not hearing or seeing, they kind of like at all is the self mastery. And maybe I'm gonna come upon it in a moment in, like, later in the book. But what I'm not saying is like, okay, I I actually go now. I think that's the self mastery that's the most important because very, very key thing that kind of went in my mind when I'm talking like local mastery.
I'm just talking I'll just refer here to my family. That's me, my daughters. And if I go to that circle, I go, I wanna demonstrate emotional mastery and emotional mastery. Why why not very, very local fear? Because when my daughters look up to me, I want them to be able to see someone who's really, really engaged and able to manage his emotions, whether it's a good or a bad or the energy and the flow that that allows and what that results in terms of actions. That is absolutely when I when I wanna express and have mastery of emotions in a way that it's gonna be directly influential to some people that I really care about. Beyond that circle, okay, there's my dumbbells number 25, maybe like my close friends, close family that I'd say, yep, I also would wanna express that mastery level because it would be influential to a good way in that space and equally in what I can present myself.
Beyond that, I couldn't give a flying fuck from a mastery of my emotions to, you know, the seven thousandth subscriber to our podcast or a random person on the street. They I'm okay if my mastery doesn't display as well. And I think some people would go, yeah, but it's kind of equally important, like they as much as everywhere else. And part of me goes, yes, but the mastery, I think I wanna mostly applies to those key connections that I care about. And so that from an emotions I go, that's where it matters. So is it cope? You know, is it cope for me saying, yeah, but it's just, you know, you know, you're trying hard enough because if you could do that, why don't you just become a really good emotional person that you could be like the best in the world at? As I sometimes I struggle. There's like definitely a fine balance between the generally progress for progress, state mentality of becoming better. And I guess the other clear example would be like lifting. Yeah. There's a mindset like, oh, yeah. But if I could do this back then, I just progress and work really hard that I could become that much better. And you can become a bit dissuaded with progress if you go, oh, but there's younger people now out there and they're lifting all this crazy way and then doing all these amazing things. Maybe similarly how you might say the original someone else who's like the top level and go, man, like, I'm never gonna get that. Like, I'm never gonna do that. And I think that's that can have a negative result to it if you compare, compare or even attempt to go down that pursuit.
Because again, unless you really are that driven motivational person and honestly, probably mostly me and more most of the individuals listen to the Me and Morris podcast are not like that. You're probably more aligned to what we're saying in that broad, broadly wanting to become better, but not the topmost person in the world. I think I position myself in that from a more healthy perspective, emotional perspective, mental perspective. The local mastery is where things would I see beneficial. But honestly, mastery at a global scale almost seems detrimental to me in most aspects of that I can think of. Does he talk in the book about people who have unearned mastery in a way?
[00:26:35] Kyrin Down:
Because I'm thinking of someone let's just take Aussie homegrown talent, Nick Kyrgios, or who was the other guy who was around at the same time? Tomasz. Tomasz. Both of them. I mean, from what I gathered, especially Kyrgios was obviously a bit of an asshole. But it was the apparently he didn't train that much. Like he wasn't. He didn't seem to have the mastery mindset. And he got to like top 10 in the world. And he so like, I think that's round where you could say like, alright, there's like a master. Yep. Yeah, there's there's a dude who's you know, meticulous.
And there's actually a guy at my gym who I believe is a top 500 player in the world in tennis. And, you know, I see him in there and he's doing the the type of things that you'd kind of expect from a master, which is obviously he'd spent a lot of time actually playing tennis, but in the gym, he's, you know, going on a box, jumping down onto one leg and kind of like springing to the side. He's doing all these like tiny little things, which is like, alright, that's probably improving this slight, you know, injury prevention or springiness from moving in a weird angle to reach a ball that goes behind him or something like that.
That's someone I go, okay, like he's doing like the tiny little minutiae things that he's trying to improve on, which will eventually stack up to like the big the big goal. I don't know if Kyrgios ever has done that. Let's say he hasn't. And he was just, you know, he just go on the court and he's just really fucking good at hidden balls. And, you know, I'm sure he did thousands of hours, but maybe he probably didn't do tens of thousands of hours. So is he considered a master then? Like, if he doesn't have the mentality that Robert Greene talks about in this book, if he's his creativity is just pure, like, he was already creative. He didn't need to do the apprenticeship.
He could just skip to the creative. I think no, I think
[00:28:41] Juan Granados:
I don't think it's discussed in there. But if by this definition of mastery, it's the fact of doing something long enough so you understand the rules so that you can be creative and kind of explore and try out different things and then be a master in that you are almost leading leading the charge on the the way things are done or the path or you're discovering new interesting things like making incremental gains in in that perspective. So earned or unearned, you know, you could be a genius when it comes to hitting, you know, tennis balls. And already when you hit the ball, you're already kind of creative. You don't even have to focus on your swings. You're already thinking of, oh, yeah. But if I move my little toy this position, then you can give us like two kilometers more per hour or whatnot. I'm sure you could have people who are just like that extra level of it and become a quote unquote master. I think that's this is where my my my challenge lies in that.
I think mastery as a concept at the local and and here we go, just as an individual useful. I think mastery at the achievement, not useful because you don't know. You can't you can't express that particular opinion or not because you don't know. Again, I was talking about running. So we're the same bulb. From an external perspective, we could say he was a master at running because he did win, but you don't know what what level of training was he doing? Was he someone who was, like, gifted with a lot of things? Maybe he did train really hard, but as time has passed down, he's not the fastest runner. Is he still considered a master? Everyone talks about the chicken nuggets that he ate before the Beijing Olympics. Yeah. So it's also it's all this like concept of mastery at the global comparison level that, you know, maybe you can attain to it. And I think that it's useful. I was kind of I don't think it's useful at all. And this is my gripe with this book is that as he retell stories of biographies and things like that, in particular, I think Thomas Edison, I've mentioned quite a few times. There is displays of grit and determination that quote unquote give mastery. But I've read in other books where they also talk about, Thomas Edison in a bad light in that he stole ideas from other people and did all these terrible things as well.
And so it's like, I guess you could claim that someone is a master at this particular thing, but, hey, not at this other thing. So then they're not a master at that. They're a master at this particular thing. And, you know, you could make a bit like, wait. Yeah. But we even within that, it's not this. I almost go, I don't think it's beneficial. I think it's a semi useful at best comparison as a human to another human, but at the new perspective at the mastery of yourself, super, super useful, super useful. And the way I'm kind of taking away from the book is more all of the examples that they it provides, which again, like 95 biographical 5% informational is more okay. How does does this particular story sit in any way shape or form and things that I'm doing in my life or attempting to do I think more of that absorption is where I'm seeing it best fit as opposed to, oh, this person did that. So if I can do something similar, then I can achieve these things. Nah. I just think that's the that's a wrong perspective to take. And I was talking about it in the monthly goals. That's where I went. I think that annual goal that I set for the million dollar, that was incorrect. Why? Because again, I really, if if I think about it from that, those external outcomes, it can be useful as a directionally useful thing, but it's ultimately not as useful as other things. And so, you know, if I would, I didn't ask the right questions and it's like, okay, why would I achieve that particular thing? Is it just because it might be fun? Well, it might have been in part because, oh, I want to be more secure with the family and set up. Okay. Also, you want more security in that in, yes, putting together a statement of, oh, I want to achieve x amount of money by this particular thing as an ecosystem.
Maybe there's other underlying things around that, which one of my goals I talked about in November was the okay, what's my skill sets versus things I'm doing and doing that review, It actually dawned upon me. Oh, it's actually more important for me to care about mastery of myself on learning and becoming greater different skill sets that I have as opposed to the focus of what then that can achieve. So as an example, and I've I've seen this before on the podcast, one of the things that I'm towing around with that would be fun is becoming better at speaking and and realistically more public speaking because God knows we do enough talking on the podcast.
And aspects of that is a skill set. It's interesting. Now I could put the lens on it and go, okay, well, what does that mean? You know, like, well, I can become master and that means I could do a TED talk or I could go and do give speeches and shit like that. But that one doesn't really motivate me. Two, it's probably the incorrect lens of put it because, again, it's then becomes comparison and who can get into whatever thing and do fees and la la la. But I go, but the the important bit here is almost the the points that you can give yourself of the internal review from mastery perspective on, okay, if I was to be better at a as a public speaker, okay, how do I either gamify it or demonstrate to myself that I'm I'm moving my way towards a a mastery point. And then there's very specific actions than what might take that doesn't have to be guided by the rest of society that's doing. Again, we live in society, so you have to have some guidance and rulings of what's considered good and not good. Fine. But you can just kind of apply it to yourself to be content and happy when you're reaching those those aspects.
The the example, another one where I I saw this was when I did those acting classes a couple of years ago. And I went into it, not with the idea of becoming an actor, but to do a skill set and improve and and and have fun with it. And in the very short, I think it was four weeks or six weeks or six sessions that I did. And it was in a group setting. I went it was fun to see and do and increase a particular skill set to then also know that you don't want to become a master in that space and definitely not in the comparison purposes. If I'd gone in there with a purpose of, I am, but you know, if I do this and I become really good and you know, what's a master of that? Oh, you've got to be a whatever, a Hollywood star that does this and that. That would have been terrible, terrible for me. I don't think that would have worked out in so in so many different ways. It would have been terrible. So it's it's the other examples in my life where I've gone. It's the internal mastery that I would say is the of utmost importance.
And then figuring that out, then then the examples of, okay, well, it's a social social intelligence and understanding and seeing other people how to apply to yourself. All good, but I think it's how it how you yourself
[00:35:16] Kyrin Down:
see yourself to reaching mastery. That's kind of like the most important part of it all. Probably the tricky bit with this book is the he uses mastery, but he talks about masters and there probably needs to be a separation between the two mastery is the act of the mindset, the act of doing things, the grit, the hours, the process, I guess, and then a master is the top level, the that's the person that's the thing. And that's, you know, that's where the comparison comes in that you're just talking about. So
[00:35:51] Juan Granados:
Yeah, the concept, the concept is murky at best and becomes even more problematic on things that people are contentious about. If we're to send here right now and say, okay, well, who's the master of making money? Is the answer Elon Musk? Like, is that really the answer of making of making money? I kinda go, that doesn't sound right. Yeah. I'd say he's
[00:36:13] Kyrin Down:
a master of other things and that,
[00:36:17] Juan Granados:
you know, money was a byproduct of of those things. Yeah. But and and so like but you can get into you could get into such a debate about this of like, yeah, but he's got the most money. He's net worth is the most so that technically he's the best of making money and you can start to say like, yeah, that's because it is a byproduct of that. He was followed his interest and followed crazy ideas and that that generated money. And then what happens if the Oracle price rises and that other is it Larry Ellison? Yeah. Larry Ellison. You know, what what if he overtakes him? Is he now the master? Handstands for handstands. You know, if you've got someone who can do a handstand for two hours, is he the master or is it the one who can do the one handed handstand for an hour? Yeah. Yeah. But then he yeah. And then you yeah. But then you split it into each side and it's like, I know. Well, it's more mass for the one. Okay. Well, if it's one arm, it's like this variation or this or what if you're doing it when you tie it? And then you can get into this gigantic debate that I I just don't think is as useful as saying you've mastered yourself. And and that is it's it's a kind of like you're saying, it's just it's n of one. Yeah. It's just you. So you have to become a master of yourself. But then the challenge in that lies that you need to know yourself really deeply in that.
Okay. Have have you pursued what's that that saying? The old Greek saying of like, Seamus to the man who doesn't from Socrates or Seamus to the man who doesn't find out the true extent of his human capabilities, something to that effect. Right? It's just like, if you don't pursue what you could become, don't worry about the outcome. Don't worry about the results and more of being able to like, you know, if you could see that you could have become someone who sprinted a 100 meters in ten seconds, but you didn't pursue that. It's kind of like saying, like, shame on you. Now, I would also say if if you don't care about it, also not shame on you. But if you do care about something and it would be a shame to not express and pursue as far as you can for an internal mastery perspective.
[00:38:09] Kyrin Down:
The Yeah. I mean, how many people how many Einsteins have been working out in the fields of the, you know, before the Industrial Revolution and now they could have pursued their their, you know, higher calling, so to speak, but they one didn't get the opportunity. And then I guess the more Socrates aspect is the they could have, but they were scared or something like that. I think that's adjacent. The if he'd written the book where he described people without actually naming them and said, you know, this person did X, Y, Z thing arose, you'd maybe be able to see like, okay, they did this. That's probably Thomas Edison or, you know, this person did this, probably Roger Federer or whatever.
But if he also did it on people who were like, no namers, you know, there was a couple of people I read right at the start. Yeah, that was on people that have never even hired before. Yep. And I think that would make it for a bit more of an interesting aspect, whether you then reveal the actual names of the people at the end or not, you know, that's literary choice. But I think that would create a bit more of a delineation between the master and mastery. And the last aspect on this, which is I hear all the time and it's even in the bunch of the titles, the chapter titles, apprenticeship mentor, do you need to be, you know, is the true master the one who can then teach to the like, you know, next generation of masters and therefore, like the true master is the one who has the most master students. You know, this is something I've heard a bunch of times like the you can't you don't really know something until you teach you can teach it.
Personally, I disagree with that. I don't think you actually need to be able to teach something. I think those are separate skills. You can be really good at something and not necessarily good at explaining it. This would be let's take a savant who can draw or, you know, memorize pi to a ridiculous degree photographic memory, they can just see a sheet and list it off word by word. You can't teach that to anyone that's just straight and build. Are they a master? Yeah, sure. They're a master at fucking memorizing pi to x degree.
Then you've got the dude who does like the memory palace and he can actually memorize it to I remember here in this the other day, it's an absurd number like 1,010 digits, whatever it is. And he can actually teach that to people. Is he more of a master? You know that this is I would say again, again, no, but the but yeah, the mastery aspect. Yeah, the memory palace guy is, is as conquered more or is more aligned with mastery than the guy who's just
[00:41:01] Juan Granados:
a savants able to do that. Yeah, that's a very good distinction. Master versus mastery is very, like, distinctive thing. I think it's the I'll I'll end up with saying the concept of master or mastery. Master maybe is is, usable in that you could really distinctly say, like, this is the master. This is the top person. Fine. Mastering the concept of the global space. Less I just think the the complexities and the variables that exist in that space is almost pointless for anyone really to understand how it might apply to them. Interesting to read again, like a biography. It's like reading a Steve Jobs biography or an Elon Musk biography. You understand things that may make them a master of whatever the hell you wanted to take title to be. But unless you unless you could understand every internal possibility of that human kind of makes no sense. Like it's just a non plus, but for you in the local space, absolutely become a master or pursue mastery for yourself in these spaces that skill sets values things that you care about the actions that you take, because that within your local sphere, hugely influential. Right? Again, I was having a combo with my wife this morning about the well, like, you know, our daughters in the future. Like, my aim is to make it really hard for them to have a partner or a partner that they like they they want because the the the level, like, the the the baseline that I've gotta provide in terms of, like, holy shit. Like, males can be this good. Right. Should be crazy.
That's There's already a loneliness epidemic in your in your Fuck them. Setting them up. Setting the highest bar possible. That's what they're gonna get. So like that that to me, I'm like, I've got local influence to do that. But to say that I can then, you know, be a global presence in the space to influence some Ugandan kid to do whatever I kind of go, it's not it's not useful. It's if it happened, it's like, awesome. But that that cannot be a goal. I cannot be a thing that I strive for. So similarly, when I think my failure in the past has been the last couple of years setting some of these goals that I go, that's not not that it's unrealistic. It's just that it's actually not valuable for me to set those goals. And so I talked a little bit about it in the monthly goals. It's more along the lines of I think it's, again, one of the things I'm, like, obsessed and find joy in that I can lean into the doing. What are the ways that I can break it down that I'm talking more skill sets and learning and practices that are absolutely controllable at the local level and doesn't have to matter in a global level.
[00:43:34] Kyrin Down:
I like yeah. I like the word mastery. But that to me conjures the aspects, the positive aspects of you going after something you'd, you know, you're learning your it's got this kind of positive thing around it. When I think of master, I think of the master bedroom. It's the so therefore that perhaps implies something related to like dominance or power. Same with like a master, slave relationship. The master key that implies, I guess, a broad ability across all things. Master, Masters of the Universe. I thought that was the title for today. Master He Man. Where's He Man's grind, man? I never see He Man in the gym fucking pumping weights. I never see him working on his sword skills. He's just out there. It's like he's already there. He's already done it. So you don't see it. So I definitely like the word mastery more than the master. Yep. And honestly, if you come across someone who calls himself the master,
[00:44:28] Juan Granados:
then even if they are, man, that's that's one dickhead I don't want to talk about. That's not that's it. That's not someone I probably want to be aligned with. My favorite quote,
[00:44:38] Kyrin Down:
Buddhist quote, Dao's quote is, Master does nothing, yet he leaves nothing undone. And they that is very much in that aspect of the way the DAO which is you the more you like try and do things the less you can actually do it. And it's it's paradoxical. It's meant to be not make sense in a way. But if you kind of contemplate it in a bit, you're like, oh, yeah, you know what? The master, like the truly great person, he doesn't need effort to do a thing. He just does it. And it's more of like enjoying the present moment. That's probably what I'd boil it down to. Mastery is enjoying the present moment or focusing on the present. So it's like, here's this tiny little thing that I'm going to try and get better at with the perhaps aim of a larger thing. But at this moment, I'm trying to master this one particular aspect, achieve mastery in this particular swing, this particular, like, thought or creative pattern.
And master is more like the future goal. Like, I'm living in the future. I'm trying to achieve this thing. Yeah. That's a that's a good thing. Trying to be or or even comparing yourself to people from the past. It's like, yeah, I was this or
[00:45:54] Juan Granados:
things like that. So Yeah. Okay. I like that. I like that. We'll achieve mastery. Cheap mastery, people. If you want to. If you want to support us, folks, you can go to be immortals.com/support. Yeah. That's right. You'll get automatic. Send us a bunch of money and A bunch of money. And you'll be you'll be the you'll have achieved mastery of I don't know what dude Support. Some support. Yeah. If you can support us that way, you can go to our Discord channel. Don't go in there if you wanna ask for if you people want your software developer skills. Khan's gonna kick you out. I'm cutting you down. I'm cutting it now. Yeah. It's gonna kick you out. Ask you in last month, and I'll be like, no. We don't do that if you ask us a second time. You're gonna go. You're gonna go. They can do that. You can go through all the socials. But, again, December's gonna be slightly quieter period for us in that we focus on other things in life. I think it's also a good good thing to just kinda step back and we'll talk at the end of the weekend conversations, but it's just an ability to step back and focus on other things. Oh, so That's just how mastery is over over time. Mhmm. Thank you very much for those tuning in live. And now we'll leave it there. Me and mortalize one. App. Car and out. Good boy.
Welcome back. Mere Mortalites. We've got another session of the Meanderings. We're, it's the November 30, 09:19AM. We're usually live at roughly around the 9AM time period on Sunday. Juan did not master his time. I did not master my timing, and yes, we are gonna be talking about mastery. We got Juan here. Kyrin here in the afternoon. Look, Meanderingsis a chance for us to just be open with a conversation deep hearted, with it. Deep conversation with lighthearted touch, and we'll probably lay towards more of the lighthearted nature with with deep topics as well. Now, I like the the path that Kyrin's been taking as of late, which is Kyrin hasn't been doing any of the book reviews of light does focuses otherwise in life, but we've been talking about books in general that you're talking about, or like reading and Yeah. Content saying that.
In those books. For sure. For sure. And so mine's pretty obvious coming off the actual book, which is Mastery by Robert Greene. And it doesn't take too much to kind of figure out what this book is about or or is it or is it that that's that's an interesting point of the question. So I will be doing a book review and a bit of review on the the actual lessons and and whatnot. The tech, if I had to ask you without because Karen has read this a long time ago. Yeah. Do you recall why you picked up this book and why you wanted to read it and if it gave you what what you were thinking the book would be about A true perspective? Well, my my basic was I've read
[00:01:28] Kyrin Down:
48 Laws of Power, although that was pretty good. I might have even read The Art of Seduction at some point. And was like, okay, yeah, you know, the 48 laws of power is good mastery. I'd like to master something perhaps or know how people go about doing it. So yeah, I would read it. I don't remember a single thing from this book, I got to admit. So I was going through the chapters here. Discover your calling, the life's task, submit to reality, the ideal apprenticeship. We've got absorb the master's power, the mentor dynamic. Mentor. Then it goes into the
[00:02:07] Juan Granados:
social intelligence, emotional intelligence. Social intelligence,
[00:02:11] Kyrin Down:
awaken the dimensional mind, the creative act. Creative and then it actually into mastery. And then the intuitive with irrational mastery. Yeah. I got to say, like, and it's from what I can tell, it's pretty similar. You'd be able to say this, but he's looking at people from history, the Wright brothers, Santiago Calatrava, Martha Graham, Oki Matsuoka. I don't remember a single thing from this book. So the interesting
[00:02:39] Juan Granados:
thing about these books and I guess so I'll talk about mastery and its generality and we'll, we'll start with an interesting question. Have you finished it or you're just. No, I'm about halfway through right now and it didn't straight up back, like reading this book, wasn't what I expected it to be either. Maybe I would have said, I thought it'd be more instructional than it is storytelling and historical reviews. However, that shouldn't have actually been my, my viewpoint given that the 48 laws of power are maybe 30% instructional, 70%, more historical reviews and biographical type of nature. This one's even more biographical. There's probably like 95% biographical, 5% instructional. So less on the instructions. So if you're looking for something like that, obviously we'll talk about more book for you. But one of the aspects about mastery that it got me thinking was, I think so. Question for you here, Karan. What do you think right now are aspects of your life that Yeah.
The titles there that Yeah. Actually, I'll give you the question and then I'll talk about it so you can give some time. What are the things right now in your life would you say that you are trying to reach mastery on? It's kind of like the first caller. And the path that Robert Green is talking about there is, yeah, you typically have an apprenticeship, which is like a seven to ten year type of domain where you're doing your ten thousand hours and you're doing all this big learning. From that point in the end, you move into the ability to be creative. So once you know the rules and how to play the game, then you start being able to focus on more specific things about it. I would tell you that's where we kind of sit in a podcasting lens in that we went through the big period of years, six years of doing the podcast. We don't necessarily think about the light and set up with the camera or this, whatever. That's all now in the rudimentary expectations. We can now focus on, oh, you know, am I speaking a particular way? We don't even talk about um's and ahs and ahs, I should be saying that less. We still do, but more refined than what it used to be. In saying that, the final one is end mastery. And I haven't gotten to that point of this book, but it's insinuating around the twenty thousand hours, learning all these things from your mentors, blah blah. Like getting to a point that you are seen as the the master, the expert, the whatever that you know full well and can continue pushing the boundaries of what it means. So going into it, would you say that there's things that are clear in your mind that you wanna be either you think you're a master or that others would be like, Oh, yeah, Karen's a master in this?
[00:04:52] Kyrin Down:
No. No. To the first yes to the second. Okay. The no is I don't think there's anything I'm trying to master because when you talk about the ideal apprenticeship, the it's very easy to do something for a long time, and get good at that thing. But when I when you talk about mastery as a broad subject, I'm thinking you're, you're mastering a skill set that is wide in domain as well, like, you know, am I a master at walking upstairs? The answer, I guess, would be like, yes, in a sense that I can walk up pretty much any set of stairs. But can I walk up, you know, stairs that are tapped? Can I walk up 20,000 steps? Can I do it fast? Can I do it slow? Can I do it in a you know, there's the if you've seen that video of the guy running down backwards, kind of like sloping amphitheater, which has those like long Oh, yes, yes, yes? Yep. Am I a master of doing that? Obviously, no, because I'm not that guy.
So when I think of mastery in terms of things that I'm doing, when you talk about you mentioned the podcast, I would say like, I'm good at it, but am I doing the ideal apprenticeship of every day I'm trying to improve? No. Most of the times I'm coming here and it's autopilot. I'm not really striving for I got to get amazingly better at this thing. That being said, I've put enough hours into enough things, probably got enough natural talent and ordering of my life to get good at certain things. A girl at the gym came up to me. I said she's like, you've got a fanboy. I was like, Oh, is it Leo? Leo is my hype man. You know, this is the guy is always like talking me out. She's like, No, no, no. There was this guy, Dan. He says, he's Colombian guy. And apparently he's like, really impressed, wants to get into calisthenics and stuff and sees me doing the handstands and probably pull ups and other stuff that I do there. And it was like, wow, that guy's really fucking good.
Would I consider myself a master? No. Would he say I am? Maybe there's a decent chance. And we'll talk about Uruk again later. Who, you know, he's someone I would say like, Yeah, he's probably a master. He called himself an fucking amateur. And this is like, guys, if I can get to his level of one arm handstands, that would be epic. Amazing. I'd feel like I've kind of ticked ticked them off in a sense. And he's like, I'm an amateur compared to the the real good people. And it's just like, oh, man, if you're an amateur, I'm like a subhuman degenerate, you know, like I'm the the frickin lick of the squash snail under someone's toes and under their shoes. So, no, I I don't consider myself a master and I think would people consider me a master in some things? Perhaps perhaps I'm not not too sure. Yeah. It may make a good point because it is
[00:08:08] Juan Granados:
there's a strong piece of reference in that we live in a world and you can have local mastery and you're gonna mastery that starts come spinning out beyond. And if you consider every single human being, then things change dramatically. If you are defining though mastery as being at a top, let's just say some percentage that I like at the very top, and that's considered mastery, whether it's a skill set or an understanding or your ability to think, then yeah, that's gonna be really hard to achieve that. Like you say, you are seen as a master by most local examples. I would say you've current on the top in the top 50 handsets in Brisbane like that. I would say that's an easy feat. And so you go, okay, local mastery has been achieved. But of course, you go global and all of a sudden you're the nail.
You're the snail and people just stop stepping on you because shit, there's nothing good in that. So for me, so when I originally maybe picked up this book or wanted to read the book and I've thought about this previously with Josh Waitzkin's book around kind of like the the circle is getting tighter. It's just start learning and, the art of learning. There's aspects where I was like, okay, well, do I want to become the full price was, do I want to become a master at training or like lifting? No. Not really. That's that's not a particular thing. And I thought, oh, what about, you know, is he a podcasting or creating?
No. That's also not what I want to achieve mastery. When you were saying about stepping up the stairs, I think there's a there's a difference of delineation put on as proficiency at something and there's mastery. And you need a good sense of obsession about the particular thing that you're chasing to achieve not just local, but I say universal mastery that you'd need some absolute level of extreme thinking to get you past those particular levels because you're gonna have people out there who are just gonna be doing everything in their willpower and availability to make it happen. So I don't know if you ever want to become, you know, top like, if it was like, you wanna become a master at handstand where people are like, oh, globally, universally, he is one in the top 10.
Is that something that really would satisfy with what you need? No. No. No. No. Probably not. But also to get that is would be an inconceivable amount of effort or even maybe impossible based on genetics and structure and everything else. Right. So that's that's a reality. Kind of the same reality that went for me. The the part that I guess most interested me in reading of what I've read so far was not so much like the actual what the books about, but mastering in its generality was I dig the local mastery aspect more than the universal mastery. And I can get amongst what that would mean as success.
While avoiding the pitfalls of mastery in its global scale. I think you are in for a world of pain. Unless you're that committed, obsessed about something and becoming the best. It's so again, here's the other example, podcasting. I or or creating content. I could see myself that there would be benefit energy prioritization that I would put towards becoming a local master of the craft. So that's better with the lights and better than the conversation and the asking the questions and talking to people on a local level. And that might be Australia, that might be our city.
Easy enough. Well, not as much easy enough, but it's doable without impacting the rest of life. And so I could get committed and do that. And that that's like a step that's close enough to actually achieve. Not just proficiency and proficiency would be, I would say we're at proficient level in podcasting in that whether we do a live, not live, schedule something, do a book review, do a whatever, we can do them and we're proficient enough to make it happen. And it's at a possible quality that you'd go, oh, yeah. Those guys are podcasters. But I could see the the next step towards a local mastery as a as a possible and something I would wanna achieve. But that's where it ends because I've heard of the Chris Williamson's and your, Steven Bartlett or your Joe Rogan and what they have to do. Now Joe is probably a little bit different, but definitely Steven and Chris of the people that I've seen more directly.
The effort that they put towards, you know, not just them, but all the team members and the things that they have to prioritize to make global mastery occur is something that I just would not be able to achieve right now without breaking loads of other things in my life, and it wouldn't be worth it. And so that to me kind of screamed out as I was reading this being like, oh, this all makes sense at a local level. It doesn't make sense at the universal sort of global mastery level. But is that wrong? Do you reckon that's that's a that's just because I haven't found something that you should be like, everyone should find something to be a master of? No. A little bit Like, is that a problem? If you never become a master of something in your life at a global level, is that seen as detrimental as that issue? Failed as a human. No, no, I wouldn't I wouldn't call that.
[00:13:13] Kyrin Down:
There are two semi side thoughts to that, though. One is I think mastery is more the mindset rather than the outcome. So we'll talk about like the limitations, the especially physical limitations, things you can't do anything about. If you don't reach the success, accolades, the wonder, the fanboying of people, I still think you can become a master of something even if, like, you're physically limited at that thing. So let's just take, you know, before the Paralympics, for example, the there'd be, you know, people who had like one leg and they'd be swimming or they'd be blind and they'd be running or something like that. You know, they could I, I'd say, yeah, you could achieve mastery of a certain sport or something having that physical limitation and you could achieve that and no one would even know about it. No one know your name, no one would give a shit.
And so it's more the mindset of getting there of every day being going, you know, I've got sixteen hours of waking hours here, how can I use most of them to get me further to learn more to really be proactively going, this is where I can improve better? I think, was listening to I've been just watching some random baseball videos and other American sports seem to be just hitting me at the moment. So I'm accepting it. Ohtani, I think there was a video that I was watching or heard something about him. Maybe it was one of the other Japanese guys where it was talking about they used to just go to the batting cages. And they would just watch fastballs come in. They wouldn't even try and swing at the ball or do anything. They just watch it to get used to the speed of the ball. Yep. And, I saw another chart sheet with Ohtani was saying like, all right, now he wanted to become like number one in MBL MLB, MLB MLB draft or something.
And then there was like eight squares around that and it's like, what are the things that would make me get that one thing was like, karma. One was, like, hitting average or something. One was speed. One was agility. One was, you know, not getting injured. One was something else. And then there'd be another eight around like that would branch out. There'd be another eight around that. And for karma, he would do things like clean up for himself, be respectful to teammates, say, be respectful to umpires, things like this. And so he was, he was breaking it down. And essentially, I think that's what mastery is you, you're like a big goal. And then it's just breaking down, breaking down, breaking down until you're getting to have we cleaned our mics, you know, is this the optimal setup? Could we have, you know, altered the lighting and put the lighting just a little bit higher change the settings and things like that?
We're not doing any of that. I'm not I'm slightly doing that for the handstands. But even then, you know, I'm, I'll, I'll look at form checks. I'll there's a German dude on YouTube, who has some one arm handstand videos and things, and I've been listening slash relearning a little bit of German to to like tune into it to to figure out like, okay, what are like his particular tips? But I know in my heart of hearts, I'm not going and doing all of these absolute crazy things to master something. And so I think it's the mindset rather more than the end outcome.
[00:17:10] Juan Granados:
That's actually the no like the minds. The
[00:17:13] Kyrin Down:
end outcome matters, of course, because that's when it is master like you could have this mindset from well, not challenge that now day one of learning how to be the golf master, and it's like, well, you're you're still fucking really shit at golf. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll challenge that. I'll challenge that at the end, but I think we'll go to the, let me do the boostgram early. Sure. I'll we'll jump into boostgrams.
[00:17:32] Juan Granados:
Again, it's a it's a chance for us to call out people who have been supporting the podcast as well, and we'll talk about that second part of the call that you're talking about. I think that that hits the nail on what I wanted to talk about today. We've got the did I call that out? No. We did. Peter. Peter's got a big one here. So I was gonna read this out, came through on the November 24. I heard this interesting theory once. From an evolutionary caveman perspective, the way the human brain deals with a serious breakup is identical to dealing with death of a loved one. A very important person in your life is not there anymore and never will be again. In our brutal primitive caveman days, a modern breakup just wasn't a reality. A woman was likely either stolen or killed. Either way, the loss of a lover is traumatic event that affects you deeply. A modern breakup is an example of hyper novelty.
That's 222,000
[00:18:20] Kyrin Down:
using fountain. Thank you very much, though. Ducks, Peter. That was a great comment. Thank you, Peter. It kind of puts in perspective for me of 2020, 2021, which, yeah, I would say I was experiencing something like that. Was a bit mixed up because COVID was all happening at that same time. So it's like I think a lot of things were going on around then. But yeah,
[00:18:43] Juan Granados:
I'd give some credence to that. Yeah. I appreciate it. Peter, and again, if you want to support us, you can send through some some boosted fractional, Bitcoin that can be sent through in a valley for Valley way and using all the good podcasting platforms out there to do that. Yeah. So I wanted to challenge that idea because I think I've done this enough times to see the mistake. And I talked about it in the monthly goals partly, but I'll talk about it more deeply here. I had an annual goal which I've now canceled myself. Well, that aside. And the annual goal that I said was I wanted to create a new product ecosystem to reach $1,000,000 That's right. Yeah. So for the for the annual. Right. And I did pursue, I would say two formal to full formal ideas in through to see what would happen. And one we kind of stopped it. The other one, it was a still trying, but I was like, okay, I can see this is not going anywhere. There's part of me that doesn't care to progress that particular path down forward.
And the second example like that, where it's a maybe more so on an external result. Right? Or the single outcome. Where and this is again the learning for me. Every time almost every time that I put something like that, it's nine out of 10 doesn't sit well or even if it's achieved, it's not that great. Even when I've put the goals for myself on achieving 300 kilometers of move or 150 kilometers of whatever. Yes, often I do hit it and it does motivate me to go and do the various things. But again, the focus on the external outcome, I'll bring it back to mastery in a minute, is not as helpful, I think, as an internal reflection or actions to drive certain things that you wanna achieve. The the view towards global mastery or that that achievement of success in the comparison nature, I think, is fraud with danger.
Can can work for a lot of people. Absolutely. But it it might mean that you absolutely destroys destroy, get rid of all these other things that you really prioritize in the pursuit of one or two great things. I'll take an example of both of us, but we don't really know about, but because I becoming a gold medalist in the Olympics, as a 100 meters. It's very likely that unless you are genetically the goat or you just have a propensity to be great because everyone's shit at that particular year or something like that, you're probably giving up a lot of things. One random for those passing through our mind is something that I was reading here was imagine you're going for the Olympics. And as early on in the year, even just a tiny little thing would be Oh, you probably can't go out and be very social to see many people purely for the aspect of I don't want to be sick. We just want to don't get sickness from people around. So maybe you won't go into any group gatherings or anything like that. In a mass heaps of other reasons why you might not do certain things or for the achievement of one particular thing, which might be, hey, I wanna win a gold medal and become best in the world in this particular thing. I'm not hating on that. I think if you if you've got that personality or you want to achieve that for whatever it is, the reason that it is, brilliant. All power to you. But I've definitely realized upon myself, I don't want that. I don't wanna be masters. I go back to the original question. I don't have a master the best in the world at a particular thing. No way. I think that in myself, not helpful.
There's nothing that I could say to you right now that I would make me feel really overjoyed to be the absolute best at. Because being really great at something is probably like enough of a good thing that becoming the best in the world, There's no extra delta that really gives me that extra satisfaction in favor of how much stuff I would actually lose. Is that when you were saying about, you know, the mastery aspect is very much the, well, it's kind of the external out of the outcomes. I'd almost say not that not that it's probably wrong because some people could say that, yeah, that's what mastery means. But I would kind of go, I think the only mastery that should be cared for for any mortal out there is just mastery of oneself. And so that angle of not and and a lot of the times in this book, but I what I didn't like is that it is a comparison. It is a perspective with all of these other individuals who've done great things and achieve things.
And time and time again, it's like, oh, yep. They did this apprenticeship to become really great at this particular thing. And then they pursued the creative and then they become the world best or they did this amazing thing or they achieved this great stuff. So not taking that away. But what I'm not hearing or seeing, they kind of like at all is the self mastery. And maybe I'm gonna come upon it in a moment in, like, later in the book. But what I'm not saying is like, okay, I I actually go now. I think that's the self mastery that's the most important because very, very key thing that kind of went in my mind when I'm talking like local mastery.
I'm just talking I'll just refer here to my family. That's me, my daughters. And if I go to that circle, I go, I wanna demonstrate emotional mastery and emotional mastery. Why why not very, very local fear? Because when my daughters look up to me, I want them to be able to see someone who's really, really engaged and able to manage his emotions, whether it's a good or a bad or the energy and the flow that that allows and what that results in terms of actions. That is absolutely when I when I wanna express and have mastery of emotions in a way that it's gonna be directly influential to some people that I really care about. Beyond that circle, okay, there's my dumbbells number 25, maybe like my close friends, close family that I'd say, yep, I also would wanna express that mastery level because it would be influential to a good way in that space and equally in what I can present myself.
Beyond that, I couldn't give a flying fuck from a mastery of my emotions to, you know, the seven thousandth subscriber to our podcast or a random person on the street. They I'm okay if my mastery doesn't display as well. And I think some people would go, yeah, but it's kind of equally important, like they as much as everywhere else. And part of me goes, yes, but the mastery, I think I wanna mostly applies to those key connections that I care about. And so that from an emotions I go, that's where it matters. So is it cope? You know, is it cope for me saying, yeah, but it's just, you know, you know, you're trying hard enough because if you could do that, why don't you just become a really good emotional person that you could be like the best in the world at? As I sometimes I struggle. There's like definitely a fine balance between the generally progress for progress, state mentality of becoming better. And I guess the other clear example would be like lifting. Yeah. There's a mindset like, oh, yeah. But if I could do this back then, I just progress and work really hard that I could become that much better. And you can become a bit dissuaded with progress if you go, oh, but there's younger people now out there and they're lifting all this crazy way and then doing all these amazing things. Maybe similarly how you might say the original someone else who's like the top level and go, man, like, I'm never gonna get that. Like, I'm never gonna do that. And I think that's that can have a negative result to it if you compare, compare or even attempt to go down that pursuit.
Because again, unless you really are that driven motivational person and honestly, probably mostly me and more most of the individuals listen to the Me and Morris podcast are not like that. You're probably more aligned to what we're saying in that broad, broadly wanting to become better, but not the topmost person in the world. I think I position myself in that from a more healthy perspective, emotional perspective, mental perspective. The local mastery is where things would I see beneficial. But honestly, mastery at a global scale almost seems detrimental to me in most aspects of that I can think of. Does he talk in the book about people who have unearned mastery in a way?
[00:26:35] Kyrin Down:
Because I'm thinking of someone let's just take Aussie homegrown talent, Nick Kyrgios, or who was the other guy who was around at the same time? Tomasz. Tomasz. Both of them. I mean, from what I gathered, especially Kyrgios was obviously a bit of an asshole. But it was the apparently he didn't train that much. Like he wasn't. He didn't seem to have the mastery mindset. And he got to like top 10 in the world. And he so like, I think that's round where you could say like, alright, there's like a master. Yep. Yeah, there's there's a dude who's you know, meticulous.
And there's actually a guy at my gym who I believe is a top 500 player in the world in tennis. And, you know, I see him in there and he's doing the the type of things that you'd kind of expect from a master, which is obviously he'd spent a lot of time actually playing tennis, but in the gym, he's, you know, going on a box, jumping down onto one leg and kind of like springing to the side. He's doing all these like tiny little things, which is like, alright, that's probably improving this slight, you know, injury prevention or springiness from moving in a weird angle to reach a ball that goes behind him or something like that.
That's someone I go, okay, like he's doing like the tiny little minutiae things that he's trying to improve on, which will eventually stack up to like the big the big goal. I don't know if Kyrgios ever has done that. Let's say he hasn't. And he was just, you know, he just go on the court and he's just really fucking good at hidden balls. And, you know, I'm sure he did thousands of hours, but maybe he probably didn't do tens of thousands of hours. So is he considered a master then? Like, if he doesn't have the mentality that Robert Greene talks about in this book, if he's his creativity is just pure, like, he was already creative. He didn't need to do the apprenticeship.
He could just skip to the creative. I think no, I think
[00:28:41] Juan Granados:
I don't think it's discussed in there. But if by this definition of mastery, it's the fact of doing something long enough so you understand the rules so that you can be creative and kind of explore and try out different things and then be a master in that you are almost leading leading the charge on the the way things are done or the path or you're discovering new interesting things like making incremental gains in in that perspective. So earned or unearned, you know, you could be a genius when it comes to hitting, you know, tennis balls. And already when you hit the ball, you're already kind of creative. You don't even have to focus on your swings. You're already thinking of, oh, yeah. But if I move my little toy this position, then you can give us like two kilometers more per hour or whatnot. I'm sure you could have people who are just like that extra level of it and become a quote unquote master. I think that's this is where my my my challenge lies in that.
I think mastery as a concept at the local and and here we go, just as an individual useful. I think mastery at the achievement, not useful because you don't know. You can't you can't express that particular opinion or not because you don't know. Again, I was talking about running. So we're the same bulb. From an external perspective, we could say he was a master at running because he did win, but you don't know what what level of training was he doing? Was he someone who was, like, gifted with a lot of things? Maybe he did train really hard, but as time has passed down, he's not the fastest runner. Is he still considered a master? Everyone talks about the chicken nuggets that he ate before the Beijing Olympics. Yeah. So it's also it's all this like concept of mastery at the global comparison level that, you know, maybe you can attain to it. And I think that it's useful. I was kind of I don't think it's useful at all. And this is my gripe with this book is that as he retell stories of biographies and things like that, in particular, I think Thomas Edison, I've mentioned quite a few times. There is displays of grit and determination that quote unquote give mastery. But I've read in other books where they also talk about, Thomas Edison in a bad light in that he stole ideas from other people and did all these terrible things as well.
And so it's like, I guess you could claim that someone is a master at this particular thing, but, hey, not at this other thing. So then they're not a master at that. They're a master at this particular thing. And, you know, you could make a bit like, wait. Yeah. But we even within that, it's not this. I almost go, I don't think it's beneficial. I think it's a semi useful at best comparison as a human to another human, but at the new perspective at the mastery of yourself, super, super useful, super useful. And the way I'm kind of taking away from the book is more all of the examples that they it provides, which again, like 95 biographical 5% informational is more okay. How does does this particular story sit in any way shape or form and things that I'm doing in my life or attempting to do I think more of that absorption is where I'm seeing it best fit as opposed to, oh, this person did that. So if I can do something similar, then I can achieve these things. Nah. I just think that's the that's a wrong perspective to take. And I was talking about it in the monthly goals. That's where I went. I think that annual goal that I set for the million dollar, that was incorrect. Why? Because again, I really, if if I think about it from that, those external outcomes, it can be useful as a directionally useful thing, but it's ultimately not as useful as other things. And so, you know, if I would, I didn't ask the right questions and it's like, okay, why would I achieve that particular thing? Is it just because it might be fun? Well, it might have been in part because, oh, I want to be more secure with the family and set up. Okay. Also, you want more security in that in, yes, putting together a statement of, oh, I want to achieve x amount of money by this particular thing as an ecosystem.
Maybe there's other underlying things around that, which one of my goals I talked about in November was the okay, what's my skill sets versus things I'm doing and doing that review, It actually dawned upon me. Oh, it's actually more important for me to care about mastery of myself on learning and becoming greater different skill sets that I have as opposed to the focus of what then that can achieve. So as an example, and I've I've seen this before on the podcast, one of the things that I'm towing around with that would be fun is becoming better at speaking and and realistically more public speaking because God knows we do enough talking on the podcast.
And aspects of that is a skill set. It's interesting. Now I could put the lens on it and go, okay, well, what does that mean? You know, like, well, I can become master and that means I could do a TED talk or I could go and do give speeches and shit like that. But that one doesn't really motivate me. Two, it's probably the incorrect lens of put it because, again, it's then becomes comparison and who can get into whatever thing and do fees and la la la. But I go, but the the important bit here is almost the the points that you can give yourself of the internal review from mastery perspective on, okay, if I was to be better at a as a public speaker, okay, how do I either gamify it or demonstrate to myself that I'm I'm moving my way towards a a mastery point. And then there's very specific actions than what might take that doesn't have to be guided by the rest of society that's doing. Again, we live in society, so you have to have some guidance and rulings of what's considered good and not good. Fine. But you can just kind of apply it to yourself to be content and happy when you're reaching those those aspects.
The the example, another one where I I saw this was when I did those acting classes a couple of years ago. And I went into it, not with the idea of becoming an actor, but to do a skill set and improve and and and have fun with it. And in the very short, I think it was four weeks or six weeks or six sessions that I did. And it was in a group setting. I went it was fun to see and do and increase a particular skill set to then also know that you don't want to become a master in that space and definitely not in the comparison purposes. If I'd gone in there with a purpose of, I am, but you know, if I do this and I become really good and you know, what's a master of that? Oh, you've got to be a whatever, a Hollywood star that does this and that. That would have been terrible, terrible for me. I don't think that would have worked out in so in so many different ways. It would have been terrible. So it's it's the other examples in my life where I've gone. It's the internal mastery that I would say is the of utmost importance.
And then figuring that out, then then the examples of, okay, well, it's a social social intelligence and understanding and seeing other people how to apply to yourself. All good, but I think it's how it how you yourself
[00:35:16] Kyrin Down:
see yourself to reaching mastery. That's kind of like the most important part of it all. Probably the tricky bit with this book is the he uses mastery, but he talks about masters and there probably needs to be a separation between the two mastery is the act of the mindset, the act of doing things, the grit, the hours, the process, I guess, and then a master is the top level, the that's the person that's the thing. And that's, you know, that's where the comparison comes in that you're just talking about. So
[00:35:51] Juan Granados:
Yeah, the concept, the concept is murky at best and becomes even more problematic on things that people are contentious about. If we're to send here right now and say, okay, well, who's the master of making money? Is the answer Elon Musk? Like, is that really the answer of making of making money? I kinda go, that doesn't sound right. Yeah. I'd say he's
[00:36:13] Kyrin Down:
a master of other things and that,
[00:36:17] Juan Granados:
you know, money was a byproduct of of those things. Yeah. But and and so like but you can get into you could get into such a debate about this of like, yeah, but he's got the most money. He's net worth is the most so that technically he's the best of making money and you can start to say like, yeah, that's because it is a byproduct of that. He was followed his interest and followed crazy ideas and that that generated money. And then what happens if the Oracle price rises and that other is it Larry Ellison? Yeah. Larry Ellison. You know, what what if he overtakes him? Is he now the master? Handstands for handstands. You know, if you've got someone who can do a handstand for two hours, is he the master or is it the one who can do the one handed handstand for an hour? Yeah. Yeah. But then he yeah. And then you yeah. But then you split it into each side and it's like, I know. Well, it's more mass for the one. Okay. Well, if it's one arm, it's like this variation or this or what if you're doing it when you tie it? And then you can get into this gigantic debate that I I just don't think is as useful as saying you've mastered yourself. And and that is it's it's a kind of like you're saying, it's just it's n of one. Yeah. It's just you. So you have to become a master of yourself. But then the challenge in that lies that you need to know yourself really deeply in that.
Okay. Have have you pursued what's that that saying? The old Greek saying of like, Seamus to the man who doesn't from Socrates or Seamus to the man who doesn't find out the true extent of his human capabilities, something to that effect. Right? It's just like, if you don't pursue what you could become, don't worry about the outcome. Don't worry about the results and more of being able to like, you know, if you could see that you could have become someone who sprinted a 100 meters in ten seconds, but you didn't pursue that. It's kind of like saying, like, shame on you. Now, I would also say if if you don't care about it, also not shame on you. But if you do care about something and it would be a shame to not express and pursue as far as you can for an internal mastery perspective.
[00:38:09] Kyrin Down:
The Yeah. I mean, how many people how many Einsteins have been working out in the fields of the, you know, before the Industrial Revolution and now they could have pursued their their, you know, higher calling, so to speak, but they one didn't get the opportunity. And then I guess the more Socrates aspect is the they could have, but they were scared or something like that. I think that's adjacent. The if he'd written the book where he described people without actually naming them and said, you know, this person did X, Y, Z thing arose, you'd maybe be able to see like, okay, they did this. That's probably Thomas Edison or, you know, this person did this, probably Roger Federer or whatever.
But if he also did it on people who were like, no namers, you know, there was a couple of people I read right at the start. Yeah, that was on people that have never even hired before. Yep. And I think that would make it for a bit more of an interesting aspect, whether you then reveal the actual names of the people at the end or not, you know, that's literary choice. But I think that would create a bit more of a delineation between the master and mastery. And the last aspect on this, which is I hear all the time and it's even in the bunch of the titles, the chapter titles, apprenticeship mentor, do you need to be, you know, is the true master the one who can then teach to the like, you know, next generation of masters and therefore, like the true master is the one who has the most master students. You know, this is something I've heard a bunch of times like the you can't you don't really know something until you teach you can teach it.
Personally, I disagree with that. I don't think you actually need to be able to teach something. I think those are separate skills. You can be really good at something and not necessarily good at explaining it. This would be let's take a savant who can draw or, you know, memorize pi to a ridiculous degree photographic memory, they can just see a sheet and list it off word by word. You can't teach that to anyone that's just straight and build. Are they a master? Yeah, sure. They're a master at fucking memorizing pi to x degree.
Then you've got the dude who does like the memory palace and he can actually memorize it to I remember here in this the other day, it's an absurd number like 1,010 digits, whatever it is. And he can actually teach that to people. Is he more of a master? You know that this is I would say again, again, no, but the but yeah, the mastery aspect. Yeah, the memory palace guy is, is as conquered more or is more aligned with mastery than the guy who's just
[00:41:01] Juan Granados:
a savants able to do that. Yeah, that's a very good distinction. Master versus mastery is very, like, distinctive thing. I think it's the I'll I'll end up with saying the concept of master or mastery. Master maybe is is, usable in that you could really distinctly say, like, this is the master. This is the top person. Fine. Mastering the concept of the global space. Less I just think the the complexities and the variables that exist in that space is almost pointless for anyone really to understand how it might apply to them. Interesting to read again, like a biography. It's like reading a Steve Jobs biography or an Elon Musk biography. You understand things that may make them a master of whatever the hell you wanted to take title to be. But unless you unless you could understand every internal possibility of that human kind of makes no sense. Like it's just a non plus, but for you in the local space, absolutely become a master or pursue mastery for yourself in these spaces that skill sets values things that you care about the actions that you take, because that within your local sphere, hugely influential. Right? Again, I was having a combo with my wife this morning about the well, like, you know, our daughters in the future. Like, my aim is to make it really hard for them to have a partner or a partner that they like they they want because the the the level, like, the the the baseline that I've gotta provide in terms of, like, holy shit. Like, males can be this good. Right. Should be crazy.
That's There's already a loneliness epidemic in your in your Fuck them. Setting them up. Setting the highest bar possible. That's what they're gonna get. So like that that to me, I'm like, I've got local influence to do that. But to say that I can then, you know, be a global presence in the space to influence some Ugandan kid to do whatever I kind of go, it's not it's not useful. It's if it happened, it's like, awesome. But that that cannot be a goal. I cannot be a thing that I strive for. So similarly, when I think my failure in the past has been the last couple of years setting some of these goals that I go, that's not not that it's unrealistic. It's just that it's actually not valuable for me to set those goals. And so I talked a little bit about it in the monthly goals. It's more along the lines of I think it's, again, one of the things I'm, like, obsessed and find joy in that I can lean into the doing. What are the ways that I can break it down that I'm talking more skill sets and learning and practices that are absolutely controllable at the local level and doesn't have to matter in a global level.
[00:43:34] Kyrin Down:
I like yeah. I like the word mastery. But that to me conjures the aspects, the positive aspects of you going after something you'd, you know, you're learning your it's got this kind of positive thing around it. When I think of master, I think of the master bedroom. It's the so therefore that perhaps implies something related to like dominance or power. Same with like a master, slave relationship. The master key that implies, I guess, a broad ability across all things. Master, Masters of the Universe. I thought that was the title for today. Master He Man. Where's He Man's grind, man? I never see He Man in the gym fucking pumping weights. I never see him working on his sword skills. He's just out there. It's like he's already there. He's already done it. So you don't see it. So I definitely like the word mastery more than the master. Yep. And honestly, if you come across someone who calls himself the master,
[00:44:28] Juan Granados:
then even if they are, man, that's that's one dickhead I don't want to talk about. That's not that's it. That's not someone I probably want to be aligned with. My favorite quote,
[00:44:38] Kyrin Down:
Buddhist quote, Dao's quote is, Master does nothing, yet he leaves nothing undone. And they that is very much in that aspect of the way the DAO which is you the more you like try and do things the less you can actually do it. And it's it's paradoxical. It's meant to be not make sense in a way. But if you kind of contemplate it in a bit, you're like, oh, yeah, you know what? The master, like the truly great person, he doesn't need effort to do a thing. He just does it. And it's more of like enjoying the present moment. That's probably what I'd boil it down to. Mastery is enjoying the present moment or focusing on the present. So it's like, here's this tiny little thing that I'm going to try and get better at with the perhaps aim of a larger thing. But at this moment, I'm trying to master this one particular aspect, achieve mastery in this particular swing, this particular, like, thought or creative pattern.
And master is more like the future goal. Like, I'm living in the future. I'm trying to achieve this thing. Yeah. That's a that's a good thing. Trying to be or or even comparing yourself to people from the past. It's like, yeah, I was this or
[00:45:54] Juan Granados:
things like that. So Yeah. Okay. I like that. I like that. We'll achieve mastery. Cheap mastery, people. If you want to. If you want to support us, folks, you can go to be immortals.com/support. Yeah. That's right. You'll get automatic. Send us a bunch of money and A bunch of money. And you'll be you'll be the you'll have achieved mastery of I don't know what dude Support. Some support. Yeah. If you can support us that way, you can go to our Discord channel. Don't go in there if you wanna ask for if you people want your software developer skills. Khan's gonna kick you out. I'm cutting you down. I'm cutting it now. Yeah. It's gonna kick you out. Ask you in last month, and I'll be like, no. We don't do that if you ask us a second time. You're gonna go. You're gonna go. They can do that. You can go through all the socials. But, again, December's gonna be slightly quieter period for us in that we focus on other things in life. I think it's also a good good thing to just kinda step back and we'll talk at the end of the weekend conversations, but it's just an ability to step back and focus on other things. Oh, so That's just how mastery is over over time. Mhmm. Thank you very much for those tuning in live. And now we'll leave it there. Me and mortalize one. App. Car and out. Good boy.
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