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Can anyone/everyone be a leader?

In Episode #483 of Mere Mortals 'Musings', Juan & I discuss: the differences between managing/leading/doing, why I'm not a natural leader (& Juan is a doer more than a leader), the ability to inspire others, why great leaders are accountable yet not necessarily good, the rarity of true leadership, anecdotes from our personal lives and observations on well-known leaders like Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Churchill and Hitler.

Huge thanks to Petar The Slav, Lyceum & The Late Bloomer Actor for the support, much appreciated!

Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:06:07) Leadership vs. Management: Key Differences
(00:14:16) Political Leadership: Insights and Critiques
(00:23:24) Cultural Observations and Leadership in History
(00:31:25) Boostagram Lounge
(00:36:04) Self-Leadership: Managing and Inspiring Yourself
(00:50:09) The Rarity of Great Leaders
(01:02:06) Final Thoughts on Leadership

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[00:00:07] Kyrin Down:

Welcome, everyone, to another episode   of the mere mortals musings.   We are live here on the Sunday 05/11/2025.   I am your host, Kyrin here on this side. You've Juan on this side too. Juan, the assertive Juan on the other side. And a musings episode is where we dive deeper into a particular topic.   I've chosen today's one. It's all about leadership. I'm not sure we've ever talked about leadership in particular.  

[00:00:34] Juan Granados:

No, we haven't.   And so the reason this came up was for just a couple of mini notes that have been taken for a while. So Karen's a big Peter Dutton fan. So that was a big thing. So we talked a lot of them in this podcast about politics and now inability to like it, but Karen found love in another bold man. And Peter Dutton was right up there with,   you know, if you could suck another man off and I'll be gay, that's what we're currently wanting to do.   So leadership, what we're talking about today.  

[00:01:05] Kyrin Down:

So part of it was triggered by one,   And talking about a story last week from going down to Canberra and I'm gonna display some leadership qualities. Yeah.   Which he enjoyed. And,   you know, it got me it got me thinking, like, yeah, we haven't talked about this particularly before. And   I wanted to   compare some notes on maybe like, what some good leadership qualities,   why I'm not a great leader.   We can talk about politics for time teeny weeny a little bit.   But yeah,   probably the first one would be one. When   was your first leadership   position in life? And did you enjoy it?  

Have you ever sought them out as I think I was when did you know you were captain  

[00:01:50] Juan Granados:

for soccer   in soccer games?   A few times,   but not all the time.   But I would have to see that that was   quite like the first that  

[00:02:02] Kyrin Down:

in   primary school, high school, primary school.  

[00:02:06] Juan Granados:

Was that primary school? No, no, no, it would have been high school would have been high school when I was playing soccer. Not primary school. Yeah, that would have been probably the first time getting quite that I was doing a role was like technically a leader. Yep. And then work wise,   maybe two or   two and a bit years in   where I was   looking after a group of people. Yeah. I'd get, I'd sort of say, but   yeah, beyond then after that, yeah, in lots of roles, we kind of like look after people, but I think,   I'll ask you a question back to you. When was the first time or if you can recognize being like, Yep, I was I was the leader. No, you were the leader in that role.  



[00:02:46] Kyrin Down:

Honestly, I'm really struggling to think of a time when I have been   the,   I guess, like acknowledged leader of something, I might have been someone who had some sway in terms of   people would follow me in terms of,   you know, decision making of like, oh, current doing this. So like, I'll do the same thing or follow along.   But I don't recall ever being in   a position where   I could tell people what to do, and they would have to do it. And in fact, I think the looking back, one of the times I realized I wasn't cut out for leadership   is that   I was never drawn to it in primary school.  

In grade six. It was the that was the crew. It was Lee,   Lee, Lee, Lee, Sam, Luke,   and Kyren. We were like the four amigos.   This is like, probably the widest I've ever been because they were like the white of whites.  

[00:03:41] Juan Granados:

All like we've talked about before. There's a Ku Klux Klan. Yeah, there was no there  

[00:03:46] Kyrin Down:

was very little diversity in my primary school.   And   so, you know, these were   my kind of like three best friends   at the time.   Two of them   became school captains the next year, and one of them became   a house captain for   the sports sports day, that sort of thing. And I remember like,   you know, I   so obviously, they,   they'd reached some like leadership positions.   Well, two of them because   the school captains at the start of the year, the sports day one, I think that was like closer to the middle of the year, something like this. And I remember, you know, there was the group session for   everyone in the in the house, or like the lead, you know, grades five sixty seven to be sports captain leader.  

And   I remember being like,   I could stand up right now. And you know, all you'd have to do is get up on this on like, you're, you're like, essentially, it's a classroom, imagine a classroom, there's 50 kids in it. It's like two or three teachers, and they're just discussing like, okay, you know, we're going on out we're going to do like a voting for the school school captain as   leader of your house. I think we were   Malula or something like that.   Blue.   And I remember just being like,   thinking, Oh, I should step up. Because my friend was gonna do it. My two other friends were like leaders. So it was kind of like, oh, you know, maybe I should.   And just being   terrified. I did not want to get up on the stage,   a stage in front of 50 people and   explain why. But   the level of convincing you need is like, I'm really passionate. And I think I could do a great job leading   House Malula to a win. Like, that's all you need to say.  

And   I just didn't, I did not want to none of that appealed to me. So   that was probably one of the first points I realized, like, Oh, I don't want any leadership positions   at all. Like, it does not appeal to me at all. And so   I'm struggling to think of a time when I have actually been   in a position where I could tell people what to do. I had to train someone at my work once, once or twice for a new position, but  

[00:06:05] Juan Granados:

I wasn't technically a leader then. Yes. Well, look, let me let me dissect this a little bit. Let's let's get into a little bit more of the details around it because   I'm gonna shock you, me and more the lions I think at home who might think and they might be listening to some of the things I've done before and you go, Yeah, I might probably like done some leadership roles and got some good qualities around it and I'm not gonna,   you know, diss myself. Sure, I'll probably do have some. However,   if I really was to be honest, I also don't want to be a leader. I also don't want to be in a leadership position. I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. It's because I've looked after, that's why I was using the language of, I've looked after people. Like I've looked,   I've managed people.  

I've looked after people, I could quote unquote be in roles where they, for want of a better word, it's called like a servant leader because I didn't, I actually didn't directly manage them nor did they need to report to me, but I had to exert some sort of influence and get them to do something   in a position where I don't really have much power or control to do much things with, right? So,   that all that being true,   I don't really enjoy being the leader role. I've I've always thought this about myself in that,   I'm never,   even though I like the idea of businesses and a few things, I'm actually would never be a great CEO   nor like beginning of a company. And the reason being is I'm not   from   a pure leadership when I think about it in that regard, it's   you're that person or group of people who are   driving the idea or the vision forward.  

You're,   you know thinking in the steps of like 17 steps ahead.   I go   that's all you know orientating and getting people to do a certain thing that you need them to do. And some qualities of that I think most people do have whether it's like great or not great and I I can do some of those things but it wouldn't be the default thing that I actually want to do. So,   while in my time sometimes like I'm, I've talked about it in a way, I wouldn't actually say that I want to be a leader nor be in like leadership roles.   But what I do want or what I am and I guess is the cutting the line is I want to be a doer.  

I think sometimes in being a doer   you do end up exhibiting   attributes and qualities that make a leader. Right? So like example, they're down at Canberra. Right. So down at Canberra, right? When we're doing these things and again, I'll say doing,   like I'll be more precise. It was a session where we're trying to rebaseline the amount of work we need to do to complete a certain project and it needs to bring a lot of people who've got opposing thoughts and who don't really like each other and all these dynamics, right? And what I enjoyed is, I like doing   the activity of getting people to work, talking about certain things, asking the hard questions, you you know, really being a broad thing, all that sort of stuff. But I would put that in the bucket of   a doer doing and if it was my   wish, I think now that I've done a few things in into the future, I hope   all role titles, which I think role titles will eventually disappear as well. But I hope you get to a point that everyone's just called the doer. Like all the way from top to bottom, it's just a doer and it's just doing whatever the hell it is that you need. Now AI will help that.  

But it kind of splits the line because it's not, it does some qualities from leadership,   but then it has some qualities from managing. Because I've also done the thing where it's managing. We actually have to manage people and that two very different things to manage people and your work. Can you explain the difference?   Difference? Yeah, when you're, when you're managing a person or you're managing an individual, you,   I'll describe it in this way. There's expectations and there's the actual and you want to get that as close as possible to what is needed. So if you're managing a person and the expectation is the five days in the office and they're coming in four days in the office, you know, the company or whoever's expectation is five, that's your management role. That's getting the individual to be at five and then that's where the conversations happen. Same thing when you're managing someone's performance, when you're managing,   a particular project to be delivered on a certain timeframe, on a certain scale, on a certain budget, all of that is manager. Like I said, managing. That would maybe be like enforcement   of the rules. Enforcement of the rules, the leverage of power and role dynamics and all those things.  

Leadership   is   not by way of managing to a,   maybe a more defined discernible   goal. It is the more it's   the overarching, it's the energy, it's the   adventure for more exploration from the workplace or anything else. You, the leader's role is to   get people geared up to do the things, to be energized to be doing it, to go towards that like much bigger mission than North Star and whatever else in workplace perspective. Says it from a, like I'm thinking a military perspective, the leader is the one who's making some hard calls   around whether you go down the path of war or not, whether you do this profession or whatnot and then a manager or someone who's closer to the the group that's actually taking the action, the direct action, is actually   being the one that makes a call like no you got to do this, you got to do that. So,   leaders are a little bit more,   separated I guess to the more direct action that's happening and it brings with it loads of different   tasks, depending on the role and whatnot. But the different things to be a manager leaders is very different. Okay. Yeah. Because I would probably,  

[00:11:26] Kyrin Down:

in my mind, put them in very similar categories, which is if you're I had leader as someone who   kind of dictates what tell other people what's going on. And in my mind, you know, even just the language I'm using, like dictating, telling people do this is very much this.   I, you know,   it's a kind of like a negative feeling. I don't like the idea of   of being on either side of that, to be honest, of being the person who's telling people what to do. And then also being told what to do.  

[00:11:57] Juan Granados:

I just like, I'll give you a direct example from a work perspective. So I've both been in both of these positions where I've managed people where I've where you have to be like, hey,   the expectation is I need you to be doing this   by this day in this way, in this manner or I need you to use like create this outcome by a certain date. Yeah. New matters though. You hold it as a petition. If it's met, awesome. If it's not met, what does that mean? What's the kind of repetition? But I've also been in the other role where it's your servant leader or leader, let's just say it's just leader, that doesn't have the influence but then you try to derive the outcome   not by the ability of punishing or that expectation but actually from either the leader doing certain things like demonstrating the work hard perspective so that they also work hard or by   promoting or supporting that level of culture that you want as opposed to the other one. So there's, yep,   and  

[00:12:49] Kyrin Down:

it you could have the,  

[00:12:51] Juan Granados:

you know, the meshing of those type of roles but I think you can still separate it clearly because when you have a leader that's starting to do   that type of managing, well now you're being a manager as opposed to actually being a leader. So two very different things but I would slice it in the middle and actually say what I actually like to do, be a doer. I do like to be a doer and   working with all the people who are doing it and so yes, it does take things from the managing perspective and some things from the leadership sort of perspective qualities, but at the end it's, it's almost like   you are   doing   things because either you know the right or they got the right qualities and attributes and that also brings along people that are like, okay cool, I see that he's doing these other things so I'm going to follow along and do what he says or you know do the work that I need to be doing that. But at the same time, there's a little layer of managing to making sure like you're setting expectations, you're making sure people are like, hey, I'm watching what's going on and that you are doing and not just like talking about with the work. So, yep, there's a mixture I think when you come from a in that space, there can be different things and that's, I know you talked about you were saying from a political perspective, that's why   I don't, I don't really see them and when we're saying leadership,   I go any of the political   sphere, I can only see it as,   I don't see it as leadership. But under that particular definition I'm talking about, I guess, is what is leadership because they themselves are not doers. Yeah, in a way they  

[00:14:16] Kyrin Down:

let's get on to this a bit. Let's because   I want to   when you when you're talking   about the,   I guess,   the positive, the managing aspect, and then the leadership aspect, it reminds me of the my very first   actual job that I had, where it was   sustained period of years where I was working in the same role,   which was Rio Tinto Pale Creek, I was a graduate engineer moving towards mining engineer, just plain, plain and simple. And   my first boss,   Colombian.   Oh, yeah, that's a good start. I'm a fan of the Colombians.   And Camilla was what I would call it a great leader. Like he,   I never felt that he was dictating things to me in terms of   telling me what to do, even though I can recall some times where   I remember one time was super busy.  

And I stressed out for this, you know, had so many designs to do, you had to change up this stuff. And then he comes along and he's like, Hey,   current, like, this really important thing came up and needs doing and, you know, at the time, I'm like, well, I'm the fucking most busiest. Why are you giving it to me?   But now, you know, looking back, it's like, oh, yeah, you want something done, give it to the busiest person. So they get it done. So I understand that now.   But even with that being said, I'm like, he always had a very light touch. I don't ever remember him   forcing me to do things or feeling like I was   being told to do it. It was it was much more get leadership like this is where we're going. If I made a fuck up, he'd kind of like, protect me in the in the meetings or things that happened afterwards.  

He would be great at you know,   not putting blame on people in scenarios where it's like a public setting or something. And then if you needed to, like taking you aside and saying like, hey, like, this   is gonna be better here, I can't can't do this, or I've got to put some practices in place and make sure this doesn't happen again.   And those were all those things where I'm like, okay, yeah, this is the type of person and the skills you need to have, like, good leadership capabilities. And I think that reflected that because he   rose up at least one rank, maybe two ranks in the time that I was there.  

And the,   like, opposite of that, I guess, is some other people who when he did move up, and then I got a new boss, I'm like, Oh,   okay, like, I can see the vast differences   between a leader and someone who's   been in that this role for the same, like, an absurd amount of period.   And never, like, moved up the ranks or   I guess, shown qualities of leadership.   But he was necessary because like, you know, had a piece of paper saying that he was an accretified accredited surveyor and like, you know, it's really hard to get that piece of paper. And so you need this person in this role, even though like, he's not the greatest person,   etc, etc.  

And yeah, what I what I always associated with leadership was the   like the politicking, I guess, the   having to, like, get on the right side of certain people, And they're the type of people who can influence who gets a lot of jobs and things like that. And that   always repelled me.   You know, partly because I'm not good at it. And then partly because   it's not merit based in terms of the actual skills of the person being able to do it.   Maybe you could make the claim. And this is, I guess, getting into the political side of things that   the merit of being able to play the political games is merit in itself.  

I but then,   but then it's like, you know,   are you have you got the   person who can make the wisest decisions or   part of what I see for leadership and what I admire in in people like   Brian Armstrong from Coinbase, or Eric Voorhees, for example, is   they always have this really clear vision of like, I'm doing this because I want, you know, financial freedom for   the world at large, or for,   you know, whatever   stated goal that it is. And they   know someone can be asking about some other random bullshit about, you know, interest rates, or this person saying this or doing that, and he's doing this thing. And then they'll be like, that's nice. Bring it back to here. And then this is where I'm going. And how does it kind of like, fit out in that way? Yeah. So instead of like, falling tangents down this random stupid path of Trump tariffs or whatever, they're like, you know, like,   come back here and like, this is where I'm going. And this is what I'm interested in.  

And that's where you see, okay,   there's, there's a lot of people who don't do that. And they're,   I guess, more haphazard, the flip floppy, there's no,   like,   I'm trying to make   Australia,   the best country in the world for XYZ reason. And then it'll just be like,   next thing that they're bitching about this person not doing this or something like that.   So this is why I don't follow politics, because I don't really feel like   I see people who I describe as leaders. Yeah,   I'd certainly view them more as like,   their own category politicians, then, you know, how much of their time do they actually spend   understanding the   intricacies   nuances of the position   or decisions that will affect like a whole lot of people's lives?  

Versus   how much time do they spend?   Okay, this person in this, you know, position over here is doing this.   But if I, you know, make friends with this person, I can get some, like some leverage, and then they'll support me in this upcoming election. And   you know, how much of it is that? I don't know, you've met, I think some of like the high ranking people, what are you? Yeah, but well, I was gonna say it was, I think in political spheres, interestingly enough, it's, it's like,  

[00:20:15] Juan Granados:

I believe the leadership   qualities do come out but it's for the party members themselves, right? So   if you look at the, I'm just talking about like Labour and Liberal parties here in Australia,   there's   whoever the lead is for those parties at the very least, they they're very influential and maybe they have a lot of leadership abilities within   the actual party themselves. So   to any of the members, whether it's minister for this or you're just the administrator or something else, they actually have a   very strong   leadership role within that domain. But when we look at that from the outside in, you're like, what's going on? Like, does this person do anything? They're just talking all the time.  

So I think we don't get to see behind the veil of whatever calls are being made. Like for instance, here in Australia, we just went through the federal,   voting and Labour's back in overwhelmingly so. And one of the decision points that the prime minister needs to make is who's gonna be his cabinet in essence, right? Now, you think about it from that way, from the external perspective, like you and me, we're like, fucking who cares? Like as long as they, as long as they're following through with what they've committed and they've put on paper then fine go on your merry way.   But I don't even care about that. I have no idea about any of these people. But internally well, you would just care because they're gonna they're proposing to wipe out more hex then so   but see like this is the thing like that's just one random decision amongst Correct, correct. Correct. A million different possibilities that they could do like Sure, for sure. Yeah. But within but within their party, right, if you were in the in the labor party, let's just say everyone involved,   then there is a more significant alteration to what you're doing because all of a sudden it's okay this individual   has to make a call now. Yes, they're influenced and by many other people but they've got to make their own call on who's gonna be the Minister for Housing and who's gonna be doing this and who's gonna be doing that and positioning all the chess pieces to make sure that everything can be,   as much as we wanna think about it, to deliver what they need to deliver in X amount of time and you have to position it. So it's kind of like running, you know, its own little business if you like.  

So there's some leadership qualities I'm sure internally that are displayed more than what we see externally, but to us out in the outside world, it's a car man. They're just politics, you know, they're just politics. And sure, there's probably a lot of politying that happens and influencing and favors and all that, but internally   it probably is seen as more of a leadership   skill   or influence and on the external it just seems like, yeah, politics like we'd just be like, fuck, what a waste of time and energy this is being. Again, like   if you   could click your fingers right now and tell me that we could get a whole suite of AI   systems that could go on and act, you know, whatever it is that's best for, Australia based on voting system and they go on, propel it in an agentic way,   I'd probably sign up to be like, Yeah, okay, let's go do it. Get rid of the people. Just make it happen if that's what everyone's voted on and make it work. But yeah, again, we're probably far away from that too. Yeah. So I did a book review of The Lucky Country by Donald Horne. Not too long ago. And this book was a bit random because it was it was kind of,  

[00:23:21] Kyrin Down:

I wasn't really sure what to expect coming in. There's a bit of politics there. There's a lot. There's a lot. So there was a lot about just cultural observations on the   Australian spirit, the Australian character, I guess, which   is kind of interesting, but also,   it's interesting in the respect that   if I was to read a book of like, the Italian character, for example, I'd maybe be going like, Oh, that's interesting, or the German character. So   Yeah, you can see differences when you talk to a German, like, they're a lot more straight and upfront.   They don't like when you're late for things, their efficiency, and you can kind of,   their humor is very different. So reading a book on that would be interesting. But then reading about the Australian character, I'm like,   but I know tons of people who aren't like that. Would this be? You know, it's kind of like looking at yourself is like, is this actually me?  

I don't know.   You know, how, how you view yourself in a mirror, I think is different from   people you I mean, you're literally looking at yourself inverted. So it's not   what other people see of you, you see the inversion of that. So   in any case,   he was, you know, very strident on these views of politics and politicians,   and was like,   the this is leading our country down to this certain way, his vision for the future,   you know, Australia is a second rate country,   mainly, you know, propelled forward by luck, because his kind of like fame, famous line,   and the   and that sentence in itself is kind of not duplicitous, but   poorly understood. Bless you. And,   you know, it was all for naught. He was talking about all of these people, like, as if it would be enshrined in   in   history forever, we'd be talking about these people menzies and shit like this.  

You know, name me a politician from pre 2000s.   And   ask, basically anyone a politician from pre 2000s, they're just gonna be like, oh,   oh, yeah, I don't know. The only time I   really have   looked at a politician for   something that I think was maybe admirable   or displayed leadership was   John Howard for when   we had the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania. Oh, yeah. And he, from what I gather, had to expend a lot of like political capital to then   put a ban on   semi automatics and and just guns in general in Australia, and I think only farmers and police officers can carry   them now.  

You know, whether you agree with that or disagree with that is kind of beside the point, it's that he had a vision and then would like,   expend   a lot of like,   like that it wasn't a popular decision, I don't believe for him to do that. But he kind of forced it through on his own. And that's something I'm like, Okay, that's admirable that someone would do that for what they believed in, whether that   fits in with your views or not. Yeah, it's kind of irrelevant. I guess it gets to the point of a leader, right?  

[00:26:27] Juan Granados:

Of what makes a good leader when when you define it that way. Because if you have to remove the emotion of it, because, let's think what you were saying about Brian Armstrong and the other likes, when you bring up the name of Elon Musk, right? And if you say, is Elon Musk a good leader? And   you could run the gamut of people being like,   he's literally the antichrist.   He is the worst human on earth.   You could go to other side where people are like, this is the most brilliant person on earth.   Amazing.   Like, yep. Unbelievable.   But again, if you go down to the level of, yeah, but he's a good leader, like remove what you think that emotion around it. Do you think he's a good leader?  

Again, how do you define leadership or a good leader if you had or a bad leader?   Would people say that Hitler was a bad leader or a good leader? Right? What are leadership skills again? If you remove  

[00:27:17] Kyrin Down:

good because he he certainly   got a   country   to do what he wanted. Correct. So and in a very extreme   Correct. Correct. So it's like, well, that that takes,   I don't know what that takes, but that takes a lot of  

[00:27:32] Juan Granados:

leadership you could call it. Well, as I say, so I think leadership call it like a like a leader that follows through to become a leader is you have to have someone who   believes or wants to do something   and everything that they do, let's just say, is aligned towards achieving that. So   if if you have inside whoever you want and it's like, hey,   their aim is to   build a home and it's to do it   maybe ethically with whatever else. And you got all these people to look after you.   Again, remove the good and bad   because the good and bad is to the   viewpoint of the individual who's looking at that. But if you want to describe it by good being that they've done the things of leadership,   then it's just about purely   meeting what their expectations or what their mission is or their vision or what they say like what they think they say and they do is all aligned and what other people around that space. Then you could say okay that's that's like leadership qualities that you are exhibiting and doing. I think the it's the the human addition layer of is a good leader or bad leader that then gets introduced,   which I can't   it it merges the waters because   it's a it's a good leader. Sometimes you're coming out of the vision of like the perspective of, yeah, but is it good for me? Or is it good based on what I think?  

Not good in that they're doing the qualities and the attributes that is needed. Again, you might have a really great leader, Steve Jobs, right? I think most people would say he was, from a leadership perspective like a leader, a visionary leader. Let's say that wording because if you worked for him, again if you've read Steve Jobs book,   you know, you kind of go be like this was an asshole to work with, holy shit! And a lot of people say it's like it wasn't because of Steve, it was in spite of Steve that a lot of stuff it came to be. But   whatever you may think about him, you go, I think he exhibited the qualities of leadership that is needed to achieve what was needed, which was maybe   super hard driven, hardworking.  

He had this Inspire people. Yeah, he had this thing called like the, like this magnetic, what was it? Like vision, like delusional   field or something like that, they call it basically. He'd go into a meeting and people are like, you know, we're gonna make this work and we need about six months and he'd be like,   great guys. Yeah. Two weeks. We're gonna do it in two weeks. And everyone would be like, what the fuck's going on? But he'd lead them into, yeah, we can do it in two weeks. Elon Musk does the same thing. So there's a lot of qualities   that a leader or a leader if you just broaden it would be great. That's fantastic. It's different to a manager. So it's very different. But then when you lay with the, you know, good and bad, that's where it starts becoming a little bit complex and,   baffling to people because you just, that's, that's a human touch to what a leader, I guess, should be. Yeah, you know, let's go to other leaders that quote unquote history says it's great, right? So Eisenhower,   right? Churchill,   he will go like, man, two great leaders, right? Okay, well, I think people were saying they're great leaders in the acts of what was needed, which was, you know, bringing the alliance in to defeat   the opposing party and the enemy. Do you think people during World War II in Germany would have said that,   Churchill's a great leader? I I don't think they would have, right? They'll probably would have been like, fuck this guy. So there's opposing views depending on that. But if, I think a bit of you cemented on the quality of what a leader is, because I think, like Churchill wasn't that great at other things. And in fact, you know,   before World War II and after World War II, Duke got kicked out of politics still like, man, we don't want you here. You're a wartime leader. You're not a peace armed leader. So again,   time and place for them, but for him, let's say Eisenhower or Churchill, it's, hey, you needed to bring people together for a common cause to be able to defeat an enemy, to be able to do this, to send people to war, to death, all of these various things. It's like, okay, they exhibited the qualities probably in their mindset of brutality and discipline and whatever to make it happen. And so it's good for that, but those qualities can change. Yeah.  



[00:31:25] Kyrin Down:

Let's jump more into that after the Boostragram Lounge, I think. So for those who are wondering at home, Boostragram Lounge is where we like to thank the supporters   of the podcast. People have particularly helped out monetarily   and we do this through a variety of means. You can use the PayPal down below in the links and also on podcasting   two point zero modern podcasting apps. You can send a boost in and I I know we definitely got one for this week. And I think we've got some streaming as well. Yeah, I'll call it the streaming look, we've had a few come through from the late Bloomer actor. Yep. And these these were mostly for the book reviews, I believe.  

[00:32:01] Juan Granados:

Well, the late Bloomer actor was from monthly goals. Ago. Okay. There you go. Let's see. For   the book reviews. Yeah. So yeah, very nice to see streams and that coming through them. We have one from Peter.  

[00:32:12] Kyrin Down:

Sorry, there are other other people who stream. Those are the ones that stream through true fans because it runs through a little bit differently. But for the other streamers out there, thank you. In any case, it's just not as visible right at this moment. In the big 6,666  

[00:32:25] Juan Granados:

fountain from Fountain By Pete Days is current. How would you characterize the Canook small talk? Enjoy your travels guys.  

[00:32:32] Kyrin Down:

They're solid.   They got they got good small talk. Yeah.   Much more.   I felt the friendliness of the you know, the Canadian Canadian nice. You want to compare it Canadian to go to Minnesota to compare the two?  

[00:32:47] Juan Granados:

Is Minnesota close to Canada? That would make sense. Yeah, it's very close. Yeah, wouldn't I wouldn't be far away. And  

[00:32:54] Kyrin Down:

yeah, the the great greatest small talk there's, you know, you'll, you'll get,   I could easily see   yourself having to add on like,   fifteen minutes each day, or for a small, small, just in terms of, you know, if you're exiting a building,   we'll coming out   of Peter's building, and no, sorry, we'll go going into it. We got trapped in   a trap is a strong word. But you know, ten minutes of small talk with a guy who will fucking bonkers. I like this guy was nuts. He was talking about wanting to shoot people in Mexico and had his gun out ready to surely shoot police officers and stuff. It's like, why are you telling us to random strangers that you were willing to shoot someone in the head for   almost no reason? This guy was bonkers, but. It's more to the work. Yes.  

Captivating. So yeah, Canadians   have great small talk. Wow.  

[00:33:48] Juan Granados:

Okay. Much more, much more aligned with Australian small talk than Americans, I think. I would imagine. So yep. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. Peter and everyone. Yes. He's streaming through it well. Appreciate it for that night. Yeah. I was going to say, you know, probably a lot of it separating the end outcome  

[00:34:02] Kyrin Down:

from   the actual ability of a leader. So for me, it was more of the if I had   to give a rough definition, it would be something like the ability to inspire and   get people to change their behaviour   would probably be   into behavior into the  

[00:34:24] Juan Granados:

form that you want in particular. Let's make it easier, make it easier. Weird. This would be weird, but I think it'll make it easier, right? You can think of the concept of leadership,   just with   yourself, purely with yourself. Forget other people, don't get any more influences   because again, here comes the distinction between   manager, leadership and doer. You can manage yourself,   right? You can say   you put, you get your Excel spreadsheet or your book out and you go up today, I'm going to read one hour. I'm going to do this things. I'm going to do that. And that's And punish yourself for every time that you do that. Yeah. Or congratulate yourself with it, right? But that's managing, That's managing, that's the discipline, that's making sure that you're like you're mapping it through. It's more quantifiable, all those things. That's managing yourself and you can do that well,   again or   poorly, but you can do that of yourself. You can manage.  

To have the leadership abilities and again, you can to yourself is,   do you have your vision, your ethics, your morals, your   vision statement, the identity, who you want to play, and then basically   getting yourself to a state of,   okay,   whether it's something bad or something good or an activity or an action or a task and kind of aligning yourself up into that, that's kind of being a leader for yourself. Again,   get an example to other people but I can I like it in oneself because if you want to be a good leader, even to yourself in the moments when   you don't want to or maybe you're doing the wrong things, maybe you are doing the wrong things? It's kind of it's having that   internal   leadership structure within oneself to go, yeah but I'm doing this because of this particular reason. And yeah, usually I guess maybe that's determined as an identity or your missions or your values all those sort of things. But that in in other ways, it's kind of like, yep, you're being a leader for yourself. You're, you maybe you're quite like you're saying, you've noted down for your monthly goals around, I want to make sure that I'm not,  

[00:36:15] Kyrin Down:

well either confident or you know, courageous.  

[00:36:18] Juan Granados:

There was courageous but also,   not being   emotionally down about the fact of,   Yeah, whatever it is. Whatever it may be. So, you know, there's that line but you know, to be a leader for yourself is not, not micromanaging yourself, not, not tracking it down but actually going,   I noted that down last month. I've got a whole month like I've got a whole lot of value, I've got to hold these standards for myself. So I think that is the concept of leadership to again you go broader   and then there's like that distinction that I go and then you can be kind of like the doing and the doing is the connector   strings, the leadership where it's okay, yep, you said the standard, the expectation, the idea, the values, all of that and then it's in the and I think more,   yeah, it's in between because it's kind of like the discipline of the doing. It's okay cool, now you have to go ahead and put in that action and put in that effort and that connects you up to what the expectations   of the leader is but it's to do. So   you can talk all you want about doing a one handed   handstand or becoming a better runner or doing a cardio or doing a gym or eating better, but it's until you're doing that, that in itself is what unlocks it. And again, I'm doing the example for oneself, you got to do it. But similarly, when you're straplighting that out to looking after people or   a team. Like if you're playing soccer or you're playing sports,   generally like what makes a good leader when you're in a soccer team, right? Like what if I'll say what makes a good leader when I'm in the team, I want someone who's like lead from the front. They're fucking making a hard run. They, you know, when, you know, they score the post team score a goal and the head's down. They're the ones who are like, heads up,   like still a couple of minutes in the guys, like let's do this.  

And what are they doing? Right. They're reminding everyone of, hey,   still some time, they've still got stuff. You gotta like put yourself in a positive position, all sort of stuff. Someone who might be,   managing   might be like, hey, Charlie, fucking, you gotta be over here next time. You gotta be do this and do that. And part of that a leader can do, but it's like exclusive. Yeah, exclusively becomes a little bit more of that. There's more of the   tactical to the specifics, but then leaders kind of going, it's the rallying, it's the reminder of getting you back into the position.   So, you know, people who've played soccer and who you've had a good captain, you kind of can easily retain and be like what was the leadership abilities that they had? Oh well, they were confident and loud or capable when you needed to be. They always put the extra effort or energy when they needed to be. Maybe it's a coach where a coach is like, fuck they like showed up and they even though they were hard but they were like really really on it as opposed to just   managing expectations. You know, that that is all the different I guess examples that I go, yeah there's those are those like inherent differences when when you see it either oneself or those other familiar places where it's like, oh, yeah. Being a leader is very different to to managing oneself. And again, I think the connector is the the doing doing things.  



[00:39:07] Kyrin Down:

I like this kind of distinction because   there's there's something like a little contradiction here for myself, which is   recently I've   I've had this in my mind for a long time, but I've wanted to learn more about Lee Kuan Yew. Lee Kuan   Yew.   I believe that's how you pronounce it. Do you know who that is? The name is familiar. I don't know from WAF though. Yeah. So he was the Prime Minister of   Singapore for   like a long time or president. I don't know what position was. I think it was Prime Minister. And basically,   people credit him as single handedly dragging   Singapore from like, third world shithole.  

To what it is. So yeah. And, you know, been a bit   mean there in terms of calling it shithole, but maybe it was I don't know.   But in turn, you know, in terms of turning a very, very small country into a   financial   superpower,   raising standard of living to   an insane level compared to neighboring countries, and   you know what, you know, they're essentially very similar people   in terms of   the   character and makeup of the people compared to neighboring countries. So like, what, what is so different about Singapore, and   I, what I particularly want to know about him is the kind of vision that he had, and   why he believes   he,   why he had this vision,   in spite of like, all contrary evidence,   I'm assuming at the time saying, you know,   there's a poor country, it's going to remain a poor country   in comparison to others.  

And then the aspect of I guess, of how he went about doing it, but it's probably more the vision that attracts me to people. And that's why it's a politician, you'd think like, God, why would there's probably the last thing I'd want to read about like, I have   no intention of reading about Robert Menzies   biography or something, who is an Australian politician, but   from the minor aspects of heard of him, like, I don't know anything about the vision. But it's also   the results that Lee Kuan Yew like,   and because you can think of like,   plenty of people who produce great results as a leader,   but maybe the   leadership   was maybe not so great. This is where I kind of think of Steve Jobs, like he built Apple, like, that's a   wonderful, amazing achievement.  

But it sounded like,   maybe   it's hard to tell, like, was he the type of person who actually inspired these people? Or was, you know, the product just so good that   people   who were working for him,   you know,   did he get 110%   out of these people, which is what maybe some people would say, or maybe he got 90%.   And they would have been at 100%. If he was less than an author,   this is the kind of questions.   And so   I kind of look at that most for myself in some reasons, which is the vision aspect and why   I'm not suited for leadership, which is,   I don't have the belief in a lot of things.  

When I think of getting a muscle up, for example,   I had zero, basically zero belief that I could ever get that until one day,   I got it, you know, even the even the day before,   I would have said, you know, not that it was impossible.   It was certainly,   when I first started going to the gym, like a muscle up was impossible.   That was like   it.   I didn't have the vision of seeing like, Kyren where he is now.   And Kyren and four years, I think my future prediction   abilities is,   is not so great. I can't see that far forward.   I can't see, okay, this is what you have to do to get there. And then managing myself to do that. But the actual   vision,   Inspire inspiration is   severely lacking in myself. And so it's like, I compensate by just doing and, and managing really well.  

And so that's why   leadership for myself would certainly be   not something   I'd inspire,   I   find it very hard that I'd inspire people   to change their behavior.   Because  

[00:43:26] Juan Granados:

for myself, it's that's exactly because you don't you yourself don't do it like that. Yeah, you're more Yeah, you're   good at the   sequencing and branching it, breaking it down to what you need to do. But the the visual, like the aspirational view, the story that you need to paint, that's not like a default easy thing that comes along, I can look a day, a week, maybe a month ahead and say, this is what I'm going to do. And,  

[00:43:48] Kyrin Down:

and it's kind of like fingers crossed, it'll get me to where I want to go.   Another another time I remember.   So I split up with my first girlfriend.   And   I was   just trying to be like, I think it'd be like a month or two maybe. And   I had, you know, almost zero interactions with other women in that time. And that was just because, you know, I was I was working out in the mines, just my lifestyle   wasn't putting me in contact with people. And I'm like, okay.   Yeah, fuck, I'm gonna be single forever. That was the feeling at the time.   Maybe it was true.  

And I remember, you know, sitting down with my goals   and spending   like, got a book at home with kind of like a rough draft of  

[00:44:37] Juan Granados:

the we have eight categories   of,   of  

[00:44:42] Kyrin Down:

the goal breakdown. Yeah. Of, of partner relationships, travel, spirituality,   character,   finances. Yeah, all those sorts of things, how that eventually formed. And I remember just having this thing where it was like,   you know, I'm   sure at the moment, I'm writing down things. And this is kind of like what I'm looking for.   Probably in my 30s. And I was writing that when I was about 24   ish, I think   twenty sixteen. Yeah, it would have been 24.   And   I   went like, okay, well, you know, the vision and stuff. That's, that's kind of like hazy, but this is   a rough idea of where I want to go to. And I just remember being like, Okay, I don't know   how I can do this, like this, this the problem. I don't know how to solve this problem in terms of like, being single, for example.  

But   all I remember was like, Okay, I have solved similar problems to this before,   through like,   energy   in terms of it is almost like a belief and Yeah, belief in myself, like, okay, I can solve it. I know.   It doesn't feel like it at the moment.   But this is something that I can do. And I have done before.   Maybe it's on a bigger scale that I need to do it now.   And that was that was probably like the one time I've shown like leadership and inspiration for myself, which was   this feeling of   malaise of like, I can't do it. I don't know how to do it. I'm always going to be this way. And it was like, no, no, no, like with energy.   If you apply yourself to something like you can do anything. And you know,   it seems like funny now being like,   the problem was it was it wasn't like   climbing Mount Everest   with being handicapped and only having an arm one arm and one leg. It was like, you just go find a girlfriend.  

Okay. It shouldn't be different. Yeah. But look, there's probably people out there right now who I think that is like, yeah, that exact same feeling of the   impossibility of the task ahead of them. And,   you know, that's, that's where like, I've shown leadership for myself.   It's like,   maybe this happens once every couple of years, in terms of same thing for the one arm.   For a long time just felt like I can't do that. I don't know how to do this. Like my my wrists are hurting, you know, this, this goal seems so far off. And I was like,   fuck it, I'm gonna stick at it. I'm gonna now devote everything I can to it for this year in particular.  

And now I'm seeing strides and be like, oh, okay,   I can see   in maybe a year,   I could be at this position and actually getting   fifteen second holds, twenty second holds, things like that. So yeah, I really liked that breakdown of the like, the vision,   leadership, the doing aspects, and then the managing aspect and how they enter  

[00:47:30] Juan Granados:

different different, of course, they're like, Yeah, they interplay with with one another pretty well. Have you ever had moments where you've like,  

[00:47:37] Kyrin Down:

felt down   in the dumps? Like, I don't know how to do   this, and not seen   how you can get there. But it's almost like, I just have to believe I can get there. And then and then you can do the managing and the doing together.  

[00:47:55] Juan Granados:

But once default inscribed. I don't know. I don't know if   I've I know what you're talking about. I don't know if I've really felt that way   before in any like deep, deep way. There's definitely been   like sometimes between   jobs, some might think like, oh,   do I really wanna pursue this path or do I go somewhere else? Or, but it doesn't generally last long, which is a good thing. Like I think mentally that's always been a good thing and it doesn't,   become too difficult. I think it's because it's,   I've never thought about it that in an extreme negative way, but I've never also thought about it in the extreme positive way, I guess. So it's very neutral at least in that   relation. So there's no terribleness of not   thinking or having to put the vision together to do it.  

But in this kind of normal myself,   I've never had a vision so strong and so like powerful that I've like continued to devote everything to it. You know, for me,   might have a good idea about something and then I'll change my track just something interesting comes up and something else. You know, that, that does happen. So, I think I'm fortuitous in that way where it's not a lot of negative, but also it just means I also don't get the positives that come out from, from the other having strong, strong visions.   But I think I was going to say from,   where you want to get to, I guess, and again from   a leader, like I like the thing about vision is   if you, if you want to be a good leader   or leadership as a, as a whole,   it's one of those statements where you're not aiming for the right thing, kind of like happiness. You can't, you don't aim to be happy. Happiness ensues from other things that you do. I think similarly with leadership,   it doesn't, you can't just be like, I'm gonna be a better leader. That's, that's how it works. You have to kind of tackle   the breakdown of skills of former leader and we kind of talked about a few of these here, but you kind of have to go define them by what it means and whatever space that you're looking for. You aim for those, you improve on those and then that will eventually make you either a leader for yourself or for other people. Then it's much easier to be   the manager or the doer because there you've got very defined set of skills that you can build upon. And I mean, doing is pretty straightforward. It's   doing,   but it's just about the   repetitions that you do around it that build up the continuousness of it. Leadership is just a little bit different way. I think you have to attack different other skills and ideas and efforts   to then congregate   to become, okay, good, you're now a good leader in whatever   space it is that you're after, right? And then lots of things that break down. But look,   ultimately, you're listening to the memoir lights and you go like, oh, you know, do I have to be a leader? Like do I have to be a great leader?  



[00:50:33] Kyrin Down:

Am I gonna have to be a manager? How many leaders do you think there are in terms of percent of the population?  

[00:50:39] Juan Granados:

That's a very few like I'd say   such a   such a minute amount that would be true   leaders whether it's like visionary leaders   or like the disciplined leaders. I'd say it's very few few of you. I mean the people who are in positions of leadership   generally   are just due to tenure,   generally,   more managers than now leaders, which was a position that they found themselves in, but not a true leader   where you can come away going, oh wow.   And again, the definition that breaks it down and you go, oh, this person had this vision and this energy and this, you know,   complete   oneness of you towards this particular, that's what I think makes up a leader and whatever else.  

That would be so like so, so, so rare. Yeah. Yeah. I in fact,   maybe have come across   a handful of leaders that I would call like,   man, they're like true leaders only a handful of times. Yeah, I'd be thinking like one in 10,001 in 100,000.  

[00:51:36] Kyrin Down:

Yeah, to put some numbers.   The you said good leader a bunch of times. I reminds me of something I've said before, which is, I think Hitler was a great leader,   but not a good leader. Yeah, this is where it's, you know, he was, you look at his   old speeches and stuff.   The dude was   infectious in terms of like, having a crowd before him, like an amazing orator.   Obviously,   apparently, you know, stories of his inner circles was, you know, it was like a compassionate guy with the people around him. Very caring, very driven, like work super hard, all of these sorts of things. But, you know, he wasn't a good leader in terms of the direction that he was leading the country. Now,   you know, was he and there's a question about leadership as well, which is,   are they ones who   are able to   shift like the general   tide of the feeling in the air? So for example, you know,   1920s   1930s,   Germany   was in a terrible place Treaty of Assai was,   like,   incredibly harsh on them. They're paying these reparations,   the hyperinflation   and stuff, you know, everything was just going wrong with that country. And then this guy pops up. And it's, you know, he directs that energy towards   this kind of very violent outcome of World War Two.  

Or did he create it? There's the kind of great man of history question. A lot of people ask, you know, was this going to happen?  

[00:53:04] Juan Granados:

In any case? I still think it's gonna happen in any case, I   generally don't believe   the great men of history, really great women of history. I think it's more the case of they were the person in history that was in that time period. But that's someone else is going to step into that place. That's my feeling as well, especially after reading  

[00:53:23] Kyrin Down:

kind of pre war books. So coming up for air by George Orwell.   It's pretty fucking rubbish book. You know, to be honest, like, it's not,   it's not a great book. But   I think he really explained   clearly in it, this feeling of   war that was in the air and at the time, and it's almost inevitability. And a lot of people   have read many books   of time periods like this, where   there is something like everyone can kind of sense it. And   it doesn't feel like it's   because of this person. It's feels like it's gonna happen no matter what.   Good good one is the   show,   one of the Sherlock movies with Robert Downey Jr. And   his   Moriarty is like creating this big   plan to like, assassinate this Duke, which will kind of kick off the war and things like this. And, you know, he gets caught, he's like, Look, they're gonna do it anyway. I'm just speeding up the process and, you know, gonna make myself incredibly rich from it, but they're gonna do it anyway. And that was kind of my my feeling as well. The only last thing I wanted to talk about in terms of leadership was this   idea of having the   like a great leader is the one who   it's in the decisive moments, you know, everything leading up. And it's the   it's when like the shit hits the fan. That's when the true leader shows their form.  

And   I don't know how to feel about this one. Because I sometimes agree with it. And sometimes not because it's   it's certainly  

[00:55:00] Juan Granados:

easy to see when people fuck up. I mean, I'll define it. I'll try to find another way. I think it's the the great leader   is the accountable one.   So   that you can have responsibility and you can be accountable. And often it's   the responsible person that does things is a different person generally.   But I would say a great leader is the accountable one and that is whether things go   good or bad, shit or fucking fantastic,   They   can take the accolades or maybe a really great leader will distribute the accolades across people.   But when shit takes like shit goes bad or things doesn't go the way, they're the accountable and even though they're not responsible,   the great leader will go   all  

[00:55:44] Kyrin Down:

me. Yeah. So the an example of this would be the   Bybit hack, which was pretty recent about a month ago.   I think as biggest hack and certainly crypto history, I don't know if just history in general,  

[00:55:58] Juan Granados:

in terms of a digital asset. Yeah, I don't know, in comparison to other things. Yeah.  

[00:56:03] Kyrin Down:

1 and a half billion of Ethereum, which,   funnily enough, like a billion just seems so laughably small to me.   Now in the concept of like, how big those budget stuff is, but just the world in general, even the value of a trillion is like, oh, yeah, US is printing a trillion or whatever.   There's nothing.   Nothing.   I don't know, like my, my value distortion. But then I'm like, Wait, if you have like, a billion, that's 1,000 millions. That's a lot of fucking things, man. So, you know, it's weird. But anyway,   people say like, he handled the hack. Like,   that's the best anyone's   ever seen someone handle a hack, you   know, got on calls immediately   was calm, even though   situation was still unfolding.  

Very transparent.   Was able to   prove that they had funds get liquidity loans, so that, you know, all even though all of these, you know, I'll let everyone withdraw   from what they   thought they had in this exchange. And they did actually have it so they could withdraw and then all that money immediately piled back afterwards when it was like, oh, okay,   that they're actually solvent. It's fine. You know, sure, they lost a whole bunch of money. But that's just money that they've lost themselves and 1 and a half billion to somewhere like buyback and buybits, not actually that much.   Compare that to other situations where there's been hacks or people   saying,   saying all the good things, but then not actually doing the good things in terms of letting people withdraw and access their money. I mean, like, you know, would you say Sam Bankman Fried was a great leader?  

I mean, he's one he's one where you can say he was neither a great leader nor a good leader. He was just too shit. He was just somehow a leader.   And   yeah, that I find that that kind of funny. There's   a another guy when I was looking into   the first AI agent little craze that came up and this guy called Shaw who created   did he create?   I'm blanking on it now. It's not virtuals, but one of the other ones.   AI 16 z, I think.   And  

[00:58:09] Juan Granados:

what I 16 z Yeah.  

[00:58:11] Kyrin Down:

And   he created this thing and like,   he's one who's kind of has the vision, but   is   such a loose cannon,   that   he's all over the shop.   You know, his his framework of the AI landscape makes sense.   But his personal   ability to communicate with people and just personality in general is like,   degen   fucking retarded dude   is how I'd   put it, you know,   for example,   he was talking about his kind of history. And   he keeps on working with these people who fuck him over. And he's like, these people fucked me over this person did this. I got fucked over. And it's like, okay, well, this this guy who has almost zero accountability   for   why do you keep working with these people? If they keep fucking you over? Like, how poor is your sense of, of character judgment if this keeps on happening to   you? Telltale time. And this one of those ones where it's like, okay, yeah, you can have someone with the vision. But   there's also other aspects, you know, perhaps maybe the managing aspect is what he's terrible at, which is   he can't   see the   because he's good at doing things as well. Like he   knows how to code, he can create stuff. He because the vision, but then the managing aspect is, he's not good at going okay, like this,   this needs to be in place,   should I analytically   work with this person? Or how much do I know about them?  

You know, maybe I should separate some of my work or some of the funds from them. So   creating agreements and oh, okay, this person, do they have any red flags?  

[00:59:50] Juan Granados:

Yeah, like all those practicalities   or realities of   building something or doing something with other people, it seems like it's missing them. But again, that's like, you can have some qualities of leadership   qualities, right? Leadership like qualities and then others that you're like, what's what's going on? So, yeah, I like the distinction actually of like there's a good leader and then the great leader.   And again,   I think there's just so few great leaders,   great, great leaders,   that for you to take examples of other people as well is like so few and far between. Because sometimes people just, it's luck and things go well and they succeed.   But perhaps they were just managing things or they're just the right person at the right time and it just worked out for them. But   push comes to shove and being a separate location where you go like, oh man, you know, they're not a great leader. What the hell? I thought they were. It's like, yeah, just situation or the ability to like repeat it. Blanking on who the   president was,   at this time and it was around Eisenhower's time.  

It's in the latest book that I was reading from Ryan Holiday   and Injustice.   And there was like   so, so many chapters and things about him that displayed   leadership like qualities,   of not important who the actual president is, but this particular president was   both in public and like expanding, you know, capital, like leadership like capital, but also just   in person and the things that he was doing. It was all these things where he was doing it for the public good, but he was also doing it because that's just his qualities and ways of being. That would make you go, holy shit, this person showed leadership like abilities   in relation to justice   over and over and over and over and over again. And there's other examples in that particular justice book of people basically   getting killed or dying because they're standing up for the things that they care about.  

And again, some of that is what makes a good leader, right? But again, leadership has other qualities, vision and a few other things that come along   with it. So, but leadership for me is, it's   a, again, a very hard concept to try to like define because you can have such a variety of it. And if you really care about it at home of being a good leader, I would say, think about whatever you want to apply it for and break it down to the general   attributes. Again, use AI, there are lots of good ways to do this, but break it down to the general attributes that you care about for the particular endeavor. Again, if you want to be the captain of a soccer team, it's very different than if you want to be the leader of your local,   like your local working team. There's slightly different things that might come along with it. That's probably like very similar skills and then some that are not similar and separate that from   the managing things. And above all else, if I had to give any recommendation is no matter what, be a doer. Do things, whatever, whether it's yourself managing or managing other people or you're leading yourself or leading other people. If you're a doer, you get things done.  

Whether it's you know, that's why we talk about a lot about goals or the things that we're after. As long as you're doing stuff and it's directed action, not just action, but directed action that's positive.  

[01:02:49] Kyrin Down:

You'll get very close to the things that you actually want in any case. Yeah, for me, I'd probably say something like, I think a lot of people can be good leaders in terms of   making a positive impact on   the society or whatever.   They're forming part of the, like I said, the soccer team, the   community garden that you work in and things like this, and which is that that sort of be like, you know, having a nice vision of where you think you get to how you could do this sustainably and ethically.   And, you know, being nice to people, making sure people feel welcome in the community and stuff like that. Being a great leader like that, that requires   the timing, the luck, the personal characteristics,   everything else, which   should,   and,   you know, I put tons of people in the category of good leaders, probably like the Nelson Mandela, the   Gandhi, Gandhi, yeah, that comes to mind. Like, they weren't, they didn't have these single decisive moments of like, Gandhi was literally a non doer. Like his whole philosophy was, don't do it. Don't do anything.  



[01:03:57] Juan Granados:

So don't eat for a certain period of time until they they do what you need them to do. Pretty much.  

[01:04:03] Kyrin Down:

But they seemed like   you and once again, this isn't talking about like their characters people lots of these people were   apparently like Martin Luther King. Another one was was just like,   you know, womanizer   fucking around Robert.  

[01:04:21] Juan Granados:

RFK.  

[01:04:22] Kyrin Down:

RFK. RFK. Yeah, it's too many fucking   many Kennedys.   No.   You know, apparently he was a super womanizer as well. But  

[01:04:31] Juan Granados:

JFK.  

[01:04:32] Kyrin Down:

Yeah. JFK. That's the one. Yeah, he was probably more of the, I guess, like,   good greatest leader, that sort of thing. So   most people are not cut out to be leaders of any sorts. I am one of those. So like, hands up. It's okay. You don't have to be like, Not many.  

[01:04:50] Juan Granados:

Again,   it's rare like to find it like just default natural leader. It would be one in a million. And then   even working to be one.  

[01:05:00] Kyrin Down:

Is it a challenging ask? Yeah. Sure. You might get paid more, but  

[01:05:05] Juan Granados:

is it worth your, you know, sanity or your health? Yeah. All these sorts of things. Yeah. And I think the hidden thing that people don't see is like to be a great leader and again explain to what? Okay, let's say you're a great leader at work. Does that mean you're a great leader in the family unit? Are you a great leader then to other things that you do? Maybe not, right? And like Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, right? These people, right?   Leaders, let's just say, if they've, if you were to believe that they can get things done, but then you look at personal side of things or physical health, right? Are you a great leader when it comes to your health? Are you a great leader when it comes to your family? Probably not. If you're having to exert that much effort to be great in that spaces.   Yeah. So it comes with some takeaways and then if you really want to say like, oh yeah, but you're a great leader at everything, I'd say fuck off. Like   show me someone who's great leaderships quality across every single domain and I'll be like, I just want to be a model. Yeah, wanting to be a CEO  

[01:05:57] Kyrin Down:

seems like an absurd   goal to have   it for me, it would be like,   you should, if you ever get happened to you, it'd be like, it's something that happens to you, you   actually, like create a company that accidentally   was super popular. And you're like, well,   this is important for my vision of the world. But you know, being a CEO just seems to drain your health, you know, the amount of stress, the amount of time, the amount of things you have to give up to  

[01:06:26] Juan Granados:

manage a company of any sort. One of the things people like I guess, generally, I didn't understand that if you're a CEO, or in a position   of leadership like that, then what generally happens is that you have to deal with the hardest, toughest problems that no one else in the business can deal with. So you are   continuously dealing with all the toughest problems. Otherwise, otherwise someone else is gonna be dealing with. So imagine that, imagine a position where every day you have to deal with the toughest,   most annoying, most brutal things, whether it's   legal battles,   or you know, funding,  

[01:06:58] Kyrin Down:

entrenched  

[01:06:58] Juan Granados:

political games that are impossible. In the end, it's, you know, it's the, the leaders with like strong visions and discipline and who cares about everything else that do maybe come out on top because, hey, they're going to do whatever, no matter what, because of this   pure vision that they're going to do.   But again, that takes away from other things in their life. Yeah. Be wary, me and model lights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   All right. Well, I don't know if there's any comments   on the tube. I'll just quickly check before we probably pause on that.  

[01:07:26] Kyrin Down:

So this is once again for those who   tuning in now, this will be coming out very shortly after recording   monthly goals that we recorded will be the week afterwards,   there will probably be a week or two gap.   I might be able to do an episode with Juan just before he leaves and when I arrive   in Hamburg. So potential potential for a little mini episode there.   That'll break the gap. But if not, we'll be coming to mid June   from Greece.  

[01:08:00] Juan Granados:

And so there's probably going to be some weeks gaps unless Juan is able to record some stuff. If I can, if I can, I will otherwise look, they'll just be aware we're going to be traveling a lot? We'll do our best with it. But if you really want to, you can go back and check basically a thousand episodes we've put together if you're really missing us that much. We're approaching 500 for the ones we've done together  

[01:08:23] Kyrin Down:

that are called meanderings and musings. Yep. You know, add on to that forty month ago, add on to that couple of hundred conversations,  

[01:08:32] Juan Granados:

add on to that. All book reviews. 400 book reviews plus. Plenty in there. There's a lot of stuff out there. Plus all the individual stuff plus mmorphia. Yeah. Plus the same as We're seeing a lot of emotion. Amorphous. Yeah.   Plenty of Alpha Valley. There's lots of stuff. All right. We'll see you there, mia mortal lights. Thank you very much for everyone tuning in live. Until next time. Yep. Peace out. Be well. Wine out.