In this episode, we talk with Jeff Yew, CEO of Monochrome, about the journey to creating Australia's first true spot Bitcoin ETF. Jeff delves into the complexities of the Bitcoin market, the regulatory landscape, and the unique features of Monochrome's ETF that allow investors to directly hold and withdraw Bitcoin. We also discuss the broader implications of Bitcoin as an asset class and its potential for future generational wealth.
(00:00:00) - Introduction
(00:01:30) - Bitcoin and Motorsport Analogy
(00:04:30) - The Journey to Creating Australia's First Spot Bitcoin ETF
(00:08:30) - Ideology and Bitcoin
(00:12:30) - Early Bitcoin Evangelists
(00:17:00) - Regulatory Challenges with ASX and Cboe
(00:22:00) - Personal Experiences and Social Media Issues
(00:28:00) - Licensing and Regulatory Frameworks
(00:34:00) - Addressing the Australian Market's Unique Issues
(00:40:00) - Investor Risk and Protections
(00:46:00) - Receiving Bitcoin from Monochrome ETF
(00:52:00) - Bitcoin and Superannuation
(00:58:00) - Bitcoin as a Future Asset for Generational Wealth
(01:02:00) - Final Thoughts and Takeaways
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[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Again, strikes me as it's a money play. There's a lot of money here. And again, it's money, technology, and ideology when it comes to Bitcoin. How friendly is it between the ETFs? Do you guys, you know, have open conversations around, yeah, let let's share this, how we doing it, we're all doing it to the market. Or is it very competitive to the point of, you know, you're seeing people get blocked in that. Why? What what's what's what's going on behind the scenes in in reality? Quick note. Investing in Bitcoin is volatile and high risk. Investors may incur significant losses including loss of their entire investment.
[00:00:29] Unknown:
Monochrome Bitcoin ETF, ticker, IBTC. Interests are issued by Vasco Trustees Ltd.AFSL 344-4486, the responsible entity for IBTC. The product disclosure statement and target market determination are available at www.ibtc.au.
[00:00:48] Unknown:
Bitcoin an investment for their future. When you're ready to take your investments to the next level, you might want to consider Monica.
[00:01:16] Unknown:
Much like regulations in motorsports, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF provides investors with a regulated and licensed pathway into the cryptocurrency market.
[00:01:29] Unknown:
Motorsport can be highly volatile. It's a calculated gain of risk versus reward. To manage these risks, there are regulations such as window nets and seatbelts. Without these regulations, the driver would be at greater risk. However, motorsports isn't for everyone. Just like in motorsports, investing in Bitcoin is volatile and high risk. So as we do in motorsports we get into the race car, everyone should assess the potential risks versus rewards before investing.
[00:02:07] Unknown:
Without a governing body such as race control setting the benchmark for the management of motorsport events, the drivers could be driving blind. In crypto, benchmarking provides the measurement yardstick for the price of Bitcoin. This benchmark has to be world class and regulator approved, which is why the monochrome Bitcoin ETF uses a benchmark that meets the highest standards regulated by the UK Financial Conduct Authority under European law to set its bitcoin price so you're not buying blind.
[00:02:46] Unknown:
Cars are expensive and precious assets, so it's important to keep you protected and in good condition. The same can be said for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a precious asset, needs to be kept securely. The monochrome Bitcoin ETF keeps your Bitcoin securely using a crypto custody solution, which meets Australian custody requirements.
[00:03:08] Unknown:
Hit stops can be the difference between wins and losses on the racetrack. The team is in control of the timing and speed of the stops and the tire selection pursuit conditions. In the same way, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF is structured as a bear trust, so you retain control over your Bitcoin. You can buy and hold, buy and sell, or buy and withdraw your Bitcoin when and how you choose.
[00:03:37] Unknown:
Motorsport is a safe and regulated way for us to pursue our high performance dreams. In exactly the same way, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF is the regulated pathway to gain exposure to Bitcoin and feel the performance of this nascent asset class.
[00:03:55] Unknown:
Jeff, it's the 3rd time back in here with the Mere Mortals podcast, and we've had quite a few conversations around architecture, photography. We've talked a lot about Bitcoin. We've talked a lot about cars. And today, I guess the main point really is ETFs. Right? So a lot of, I guess, Australians in retail market, probably in the separate markets have understood. Everyone's been hearing what is Bitcoin? But look. For at least me personally, in a lot of conversations that have started to come up is ETFs, Bitcoin, it's coming to Australia. It was happening in the US. I wanna hear from you. Let's begin.
What has been the journey for monochrome to have Australia's first spot Bitcoin ETF?
[00:04:35] Unknown:
Sure, Juan. I think, like, yeah, the last time we spoke, we're still building the product. An ETF is probably the most, a Bitcoin ETF is probably the most complex products to to build, that we've seen. I think what's, the distinction of, like, what we've been doing is that we're building and we've built a true direct spot Bitcoin ETF in Australia. And what I mean by that is that, you know, how the Bitcoin ETFs are in Canada, US, Hong Kong, like, simple product. Right? ETF holds Bitcoin, and and that's what a Bitcoin ETF should do. Whereas we take you the next step further, we made it possible for investors actually to withdraw Bitcoin from the ETF.
Because ultimately, you know, we're Bitcoiners, we're we're in this space, we geek out the space along along for a long, long time. We were here in the dark ages of the asset class. I'll say that's just not I'll say that that's that's behind us. But, you know, this passion really sort of instill us the the reason why we're building this product. You know, it's not it's not a it's not something that we're gonna make, you know, extra money at the bottom line because we have this asset class and and a slew of other stuff that we're doing, but we're very focused in what we're trying to deliver. Right? The mission is simple. Bring Bitcoin into the hands of as many people as possible, in a way that they're comfortable and in a safe way as well. And the ETF provides that.
And I think what's important for people to realize the difference between IBTC, which is the monochrome Bitcoin ETF's ticker, is that, this is a Bitcoin product. It's not a product that gives you exposure to the price of Bitcoin. There's actually real Bitcoin behind it, and you can withdraw the Bitcoin into your own wallet in the future or anytime if you want to. So that is not a sort of one way product win, whereby you can only sell it down to cash and cash it out, and then figure out how you wanna buy the Bitcoin back again. So, you know, there's a lot of layers to to peel through what the product is, but in in the mission in the simple mission is that we just want to make sure we get, you know, Bitcoin to hands over as many people as possible, you know, so, sort of like this, democratize the, the, the right to invest in whole Bitcoin to as many people as possible. Mhmm.
Like I said, familiar, safe way, and that's what a Bitcoin ETF is about.
[00:07:01] Unknown:
You've been, I think it from where we are right now, it's around 10 years in Bitcoin for yourself that you sort of very first, were talking about on the forums. I do remember this 2014. And since then, I guess, ideology is a big part part of it. Right? For yourself now, when you put this product at the market, which I think began all the way back in 2022 and even, you know, probably further beyond that. Now with that product in mind, that's sort of come through, has your the ideology changed at all for you on what Bitcoin is for individuals? Because what I wanna try to paint the picture for individuals is what monochrome is bringing from a product perspective.
Have a really clear mindset as to, you know, why the ideology is in terms of Bitcoin. Because a few spicy questions we wanna get into, but I just wanna lay the the groundwork there. The ideology for Bitcoin, 2014 to now, has it changed for you around what Bitcoin is?
[00:07:53] Unknown:
Yeah. I think I think people would describe sort of the old days of Bitcoin as to Wild West. You hear that being said a lot of times in sort of mainstream description of the space in general, Bitcoin and the other crypto and all this stuff. But I think I think that people miss, you know, there is a missed opportunity to just categorize the whole thing as a well west and dismiss it like we've seen recently. Bitcoin is an asset class for everybody. It's the first asset of its kind that has it's basically a true scarce commodity. Because Bitcoin is not really fitting into any sort of product category baskets that we're familiar with, and that's why probably a lot of people struggle to sort of understand it because they're viewing it as a in the lens of a commodity, which is not exactly right. It's a scarce commodity. Commodity means that anyone can produce an unlimited number of, you know, the more you put in, the more soy he can produce, the more wheat he can produce, but he can produce more Bitcoin because you put in you you try to do that.
And it's not a a it's not like a it's not real estate. It's not property. It's not this. It's not currency. So it's a lot of it's a it performs the functions of a lot of different stuff in in a way that people are familiar with, and that's how the early wave of Bitcoin, evangelists, they use that. I can pay someone, you you know, from some from a to b, without a bank, and that's cool. And that's a very easy way for people to understand Bitcoin. Oh, it's like money they could use on the Internet. And then when Bitcoin solidifies its value in people's head in people's mind, you know, progressively more, then people use a comparison like it's digital gold.
Again, you know, gold, bitcoin, yes, there's similarities, but I think the gold box would would would say that Bitcoin is not like gold. And, I say that, yes, Bitcoin is not like gold. It's better. Yep. Yeah. And I think the space now is that the institutional, maturity about around the asset class has certainly grown in the last, you know, we've seen since 2020 when Michael Saylor did the, Bitcoin Treasury move. Mhmm. And since then, we've seen ETFs in Canada pop up, US, now in Australia. And this is something fascinating for for a lot of people in traditional finance because most asset classes or investment opportunities incubate from the institutional level and then slowly make their way of it make their way down into retail.
The story of Bitcoin is completely flipped. You know, it started off with, you know, the cypherpunks, you know, the the nerds. Mhmm. And you can argue, you know, like, people like, you know, criminals, online cyber scams, and all this stuff. But it is it is ultimately, you know, a a political money that shows that everybody can use it. And then, you know, until now, today, you know, it's with the idea of Bitcoin has been incubated, it's it's moved moved beyond the narratives of the past, and it's really coming to solidify to people that this asset class is completely different. What do you think Bitcoin is? It's probably the story of the, the blind man and the elephant.
You know, if you're if you're touching the story goes like if you there are a few blind men, and they're next to an elephant and trying to describe what an elephant is, then, you know, the guy that's obviously obviously touching the tail, they describe it as like a it's like a snake. And the guy that's touching the the the legs would be like, oh, this is like a tree. A tree. Yep. Bitcoin Bitcoin is kind of going through that moment at the in this point of time, and people are still trying to figure out. And, obviously, there are these sort of Bitcoin nerds, you know, the Bitcoin scholars that would come on and actually debunk and argue back and, you know, back and forth on, like, why it's not this, why it's that. And I think that that's really, what, you know, what we we provide is that we're not just people that happen to stumble across Bitcoin or people that once do once once you build a Bitcoin ETF because it's cool and it's making money,
[00:11:41] Unknown:
we are here from the start. Like, we are, you know, we were in the trenches. We were in the dark ages. Like, we really believe the shit. Like Before and and let's just make it clear. You know? So there's there's been plenty of ETFs now that have come out in in the US. There's a couple of other here in Australia now. You guys were around playing in this space of Bitcoin before. That's probably the the the kernel of the idea was even in many of these institutions. Right? One of the things I've I've always heard it's, especially the now the story of the now is you come into Bitcoin for the money, you stick around for the technology, and then you're long term for the ideology.
And I think what I find in a lot of people who've been around through it, through dark ages, is you were there for the technology or the ideology first. You didn't come for the money because that didn't exist way back when. That's what I guess I see a lot in Monochrome. So for people who who haven't checked, monochrome put out a lot of research on Bitcoin as well. Right? To get on, you know, the understanding. And it's all the way down to very simple terms of what is Bitcoin? Why is it comparison to gold? What is that? To very, very complex conversations around investment. I don't know you in your socials actually post around what that means for self managed super funds and the like, which, you know, there's there could be hot water if it's not looked at properly and everything else that comes along with it.
That gets me to, and talking to socials. Now, the the comparisons. I was saying monochrome, first Australian spot Bitcoin ETF. There's 2 others playing around in the Australian market. If you're looking at, the last couple of days really for the media, because it's gonna come out really quite soon from when we're having this conversation. There's a few others on the ASX. But But it obviously strikes me that monochrome is not on the ASX. I know that you started the journey to get the ETF, the Bitcoin spot ETF on ASX back in 2022. We're in 2024, there's a bit of a delay.
Why, Jeff? Why did it take so long and then the decision to kind of move on to, CBOE Cboe, which used to be Chiex. Yep. Yeah. I think I think that everyone knows that we started off very vocally that we're building a Bitcoin ETF,
[00:13:39] Unknown:
on the ASX, and that was in 2021, 2022. We applied for ASIC's crypto asset licensing category that was introduced in late 2021, and we were one of the first Bitcoin ETF schemes to be approved, by ASIC. And, this this is very important, I think, knowing that the Australian regulators has actually created a framework for retail funds, which an ETF is, to hold Bitcoin directly. Well, the logic is really simple. Right? It's like Bitcoin it's not like other asset classes. There's different risks. There's different ways that you need to, you know, to show that you have the capability to manage this kind of stuff. I think, like, you know, throughout throughout the throughout the years, you know, like, we we've learned so much about Bitcoin, and it took us 10 years or 10 years to learn about this stuff. It's impossible for someone to come into this space in the last 2 years.
Right, because their boss told them to build something to because these are these things are seem to be making money, to understand the nuances on this kind of stuff. And then if you're taking a very traditional approach to view this, you're gonna get in trouble or you you there's higher chance you're gonna get in trouble. So the ASIC crypto licensing framework controls that. It sets the the level of what the the requirements for custody. It sets a requirement for benchmarking, which is how you price the Bitcoin ETF, And it sets, you know, things like, you know, you have to have a you know, you have to demonstrate the expertise in managing digital assets.
No matter how good you are at managing stocks and bonds and, you know, all this kind of stuff, it doesn't really matter as much because Bitcoin is different. So the IBTC, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF, is still, you know, the country's 1st and only Bitcoin ETF that's authorized through to directly hold Bitcoin. It's very different from the other products that you mentioned. The other products are structured very differently. My my my struggle is really to educate people that that's actually a difference. I think Australia I'll go back into the ASX SIBO thing, but I wanna elaborate this a bit more. We can talk about it later as well. It's that Australia is the outlier country where you have 3 Bitcoin ETFs in the country, and 3 of them are structured entirely differently, but 3 of them are marketing themselves like they're the same. It's a huge, huge problem. You know, it's misleading in my point of view. I think that, you know, the way that they're structured is, like I I said, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF holds the Bitcoin directly in the ETF, and that needs a license to do it.
The the EBTC, the Global X1, that was the 1st Bitcoin ETF in the country, but they are a feeder fund. So they build a retail wholesale feeder. So retail wholesale feeder means that retail fund do not invest in Bitcoin because that needs a license. So what it does is that it invests in a wholesale fund. Wholesale fund doesn't need to adhere to the retail crypto licensing framework, so the wholesale funds host the Bitcoin. It's a very smart, clever, bypassing way of going through that licensing process, and then the VanEck one is different as well. The VanEck one simply just feeds into the US ETF.
People say that, oh, you know, the it's it's great to see the ASX, you know, listing their 1st big on ETF, and people sort of compare that, oh, it's better than Cboe, but I beg to differ. Our experience tells us that, you know, Cbo is a much more mature exchange to that understand the this asset class and really how to manage the risk and emit products like that. Like I said, Bitcoin and crypto was just a different beast, a different asset class. That's why asset created a framework. And then the big irony is that, you know, the first Bitcoin ETF in ASX is a feeder fund into an existing ETF on CBOW Mhmm. US. So, I think people should give Cboe more credit than it than it in its deserving deserving the mainstream media.
In in the moment, everybody's celebrating, like, you know, ASX did something groundbreaking, which is groundbreaking, you know, in the sense that it's the first of its kind, but people do not realize that Cboe is far much more further in in this asset class. It's still the only stock exchange in the country that has emitted a real pure spot Bitcoin ETF, like the I like IBTC, the one that actually holds Bitcoin directly. And this is a very tricky thing to list. So we started the journey with ASX. They've been really patient with us. I think over time, you know, we seem to struggle with them on the on the light crypto framework. Mhmm. It has changed a few a slight few times in the course that we were there.
The real the frustration, it really is that I think, like, these guys are really hard working. They're they're working really hard to get a product up, but there are there are contradictions in the frameworks, especially for something to hold Bitcoin directly because it's new. These things takes time for people to get comfortable with. Like, a feat of fun is simple because you're leveraging off someone else's sign off of a product in a different country using the regulatory framework to as, like, someone has already given a stamp of approval with the US CCS, it's probably okay.
But to admit a product in Australia, in your exchange, that directly hosts Bitcoin, that is a different compliance appetite. So I think, eventually, you will see more, real spot Bitcoin ETF launch on the ASX, I hope. If given the opportunity, obviously, you know, we would explore every avenue. We wanna do what's best for the investors, I think but right now, we have we just have a definition problem. I think people need to realize that, a, there's a difference in all this Bitcoin ETF. It's a unique problem to Australia. It's, it's it's a may it's amazed me of how we got to this point. Like, it's almost almost feels like an embarrassment in the in the in the in the global country race of Bitcoin ETFs.
And I and I and I feel and I feel for and I feel for the guys at the ASX, and I feel for the guys at Cboe. You know? Both sides worked really hard. You know, and then when the marketing takes over, I think that's where, you know, they you know, it it sort of, like, becomes, you know, a more a bigger issue is, like, you know, do we want it go out go out to hold or to to tell the world that we've launched something like the real thing, but we know it's actually not yet quite not quite there. I think the answer, like, honestly is, you know, ethically, it's it's no. Like, we just wanna be honest on what the product is. If it's a if it's a master looking Mercedes, say it's a master looking Mercedes. Don't say it's a Mercedes. Right? And then we'll get there eventually, but we just gotta do it properly.
I think, we love we love the experience with ASX. The only thing that really stops us is that we just we just don't have the confidence that the framework would be able to admit a real direct spot Bitcoin ETF, like reason why I mentioned earlier, in the time frame that we won for, you know, investors. Like, with Citrue with Citrue, the, you know, the bull market, the bear market, and then the BlackRock ones in the US. Mhmm. And it's like and then the halving. And then we ask ourselves, you know, is this really what we're gonna do? Just keep waiting for years years. Mhmm. When the ETF the same ETF has already been approved, by on the AFSL level.
So when we looked at Cboe, again, this is this whole process of waiting took two and a half years, we realized that Cboe is really, like, really doing good stuff. Like, you know, example, the ETF market share has gone up. Mhmm. I think they're closer to, like, 45% now, compared to the ASX. So the ETF market, the volume everything is, like, strongest growing. And I I do feel that there's a lot of people that wanna support Cboe to become, you know, a real, serious contender, in in the you know, in the face of the ASX. I think it's working. So I think, you know, a duopoly stock exchange system works better for the outcome for consumers, not just for the consumers, but also for the people that are listing, products that are listing as well. It gives, you know, the competition gives, you know, levels the playing field a little bit. I think it helps everybody.
More choices is better than less choices. Absolutely. And we really, really enjoy, you know, seeing, like, SIBO growing day to day and really, you know, doing what they say they're doing. Mhmm. That's why we move our application to SIBO. And, you know, that's, low and behold, it's, it's approved and now we're trading. So,
[00:22:15] Unknown:
kind of complete. Which is kind of, amazing that you're talking about you know, 21 2021, 2022, and you would have moved over early this year to sort of progress down the path of Cboe. And all of a sudden, few months and here we are, you know, you came out early June. I believe that's that's correct. In June 4th perhaps. I think it's that. But a couple of months and all of a sudden we've got the the monochrome, spot, ETF for to holding Bitcoin. I wanna underline the the Australian problem because I wanna wanna hear about that. Perhaps maybe in a little bit more of the internal detail that you see in that. But I kinda get past something that I saw yesterday and today. Someone actually commented on the socials of the VanEck, ETF, Bitcoin ETF.
I rather that actually isn't a ETF that holds Bitcoin. The individual actually tagged monochrome. But lo and behold, you yourself have been blocked from seeing any of the social, at least on Twitter that I saw on x. Their their post, you've actually been blocked from from seeing the Australian Van Eck information. They made me wonder, because also today, today being the 21st June, I was sort of believe it was yesterday actually, that the prices for the global x ETF also sort of came out as well. We're gonna lower our our rates, you know? Make it a little bit more incentive. Which again strikes to me as it's a money play. There's a lot of money here. And again, it's money technology and ideology when it comes to Bitcoin. How friendly is it between the ETFs? Do you guys, you know, have open conversations around, yeah, let let's share this, how we doing it, we're all doing it to the market.
Or is it very competitive to the point of, you know, you're seeing people get blocked in that. Why? What what's what's Yeah. What's going on behind the scenes in in reality?
[00:23:51] Unknown:
I think, like, there's 2 2 issues here. Right? So I think one is that, like I said, I I never interacted with the Fennec Australia, Twitter account before at all. Not even like, follow, comment, nothing. And then, I saw a post, someone told me to attack us. And as I look at the see I look at the stuff that they're retweeting. It's like, I can't see it. It says that the post been blocked. So but looking at the comments, I guess this is about the VanEck Bitcoin ETF. So went into the VanEck page and is like, they blocked they blocked me and they blocked all the monochrome accounts, which is kinda weird. I mean, like, maybe it's someone maybe it's someone in the social media team just just did that for for whatever reason. I don't understand. But I think, like, that's not that's not really good. Like, we don't block people, that kind of stuff. But I guess that, if I were to take a take a step in why possibly possible we are we are we are a persona non grata in in the Van Eck sort of eyes, it's probably because we're very vocal in calling out, feeder funds as feeder funds.
But nothing wrong not there's nothing wrong with feeder funds. Right? Like, feeder funds, it's a it's a very well established use instrument to get exposure to a lot of, you know, other stuff that are not available in Australia. But, you know, marketing a feeder fund as a spot direct holding product, it's it's where sort of, like, I come out and say that that's a bit too far. That's that's pulling it back a little bit. And and I think people should be aware of what they're buying. And I think that making it clear to people that, like, this is a feeder fund. Are you okay with that? Feeder funds has has its own benefits. Right? Feeder funds are cheaper, products to maintain, cheaper products to run. It doesn't need a license, you know, But, again, it doesn't because it doesn't need a license, there are different level of investor protection, that are that are that comes with this product. So I think the market, we just should be more transparent and upfront about what our products are. Like, Monoclon has always been really upfront. Like, we we educate people about this, you know, crypto licensing framework. We educate people about the different types of Bitcoin ETFs in the market. Mhmm.
And that's what really should be at you know, people should be advocating more is that the transparency of the nature of this product. Because I can see that, you know, eventually when things gets cleaned up, when people have to be, you know, fessed up to to the nature of gas stuff, better naming conventions and whatnot, then people will realize that I wouldn't have bought your stuff because if I knew it was like that, you know, I wouldn't have bought that master looking Mercedes when I if I knew that it actually was a master that looks like a Mercedes. I thought I was buying a Mercedes. But again again, I think that, it should it should not be looked in a way that we're, like, criticizing them or something. We're just trying to point out to to retail investors that, hey. I think you guys should do your own research.
There are differences. I know, like, monochrome's voice in the mainstream media is not as strong and vocal as some of these traditional players. We don't have, you know, that long established relationship with the journalists at Stem. So our voice in the mainstream media get diluted a lot, but we hope that through, you know, social media platforms like Twitter or maybe a podcast like this, We help educate people, know that know the problem in a way empowering them with more information so they can make better choices. Mhmm. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And look to
[00:27:23] Unknown:
that, I saw an article today, actually. And I'll I'll put it up on the actual video if you if you look at this file video. But the article, it was talking about the Van Eck ETF, I believe it was. And very clearly saying, hey, this is a spot Bitcoin. And then proceeded to explain what a spot Bitcoin is. And it absolutely doesn't do that in terms of, hey, holding the Bitcoin directly, being able to pull it out. You can't do that with that particular ETF. That's not what it's about. And so it struck me as you were saying it, that is what a consumer would be looking at and then expecting, as you said. The 3 ETFs, well, they're all gonna be participating in the same way. Wrong. So, yeah, it wouldn't do that. If you go into the monochrome website right now, and you just go into the Bitcoin ETF for I BTC, it was a very clear there's 3 big callouts. But the main callout right at the top, of these three sections is you have a one to one pairing to a Bitcoin. And in essence and short, you can, if you want to, pull out what you have in that particular ETF in the form of Bitcoin. That sorry. Correct me here. That is unique to being able to hold a spot of Bitcoin of, I guess, spot bit Bitcoin ETF.
The others don't do that. Am I am I correct in saying that? At this stage, surely. Yeah. That's that's the case.
[00:28:40] Unknown:
Well, I think that these products these products are not actually bad. Like, they're legitimate products in their own rights. Mhmm. But it's, it's the marketing of these products that, you know, come out comes off as a little bit ambiguous. Mhmm. It's like how can a ETF that holds Bitcoin directly and an ETF that holds shares in another fund that holds then then then holds Bitcoin, be categorized as the same. Mhmm. You know, both are calling themselves spot Bitcoin ETF. I mean, in in in the US, like I said, you don't have this problem. Every single spot Bitcoin ETF, right, is structured exactly the same way. It's like ETF holds Bitcoin. Period. Done. And that's good because the investor can shed themselves with the burden of, like, well, you know, I know the structure. They're all the same. Now I just compare the fees and, you know, oh, these guys use that custodian. I, you know, I like I like this custodian over that custodian. That's cool, you know, and then the fees. Like, it's easy to make comparisons if you're presented with the same structured product. Mhmm. The same products that are in the same structure.
Instead of, like, you know, similar sounding products, but in nature they're all different. Mhmm. And then you're you're then required to go down that rabbit hole to then figure out what these differences are, and then categorize them again to start making the comparison on price and all this stuff. I think, that's a very bad investor protection outcome for retail in Australia. I think that should change. It makes sense that something should change. It's just it just, you know, it's going down the really weird path. Like, people people even in a in a in in UK has reached out to me. It's like, how do how does how do we get it so wrong in Australia? It's so simple. A Bitcoin ETF holds Bitcoin. But, you know, a bunch of you know, the funny thing is I can say, like, the old the old 3 Bitcoin ETF in Australia at the moment, and they are structured entirely differently. It's like it's it's so misleading for for some people.
I think, and then there's I mean, like, I wanna preface. Right? There's nothing wrong with these products. Right? Like, I think, you know, every product obviously has gone through their diligence, their, you know, the legals and everything like that. But, again, we just need to be very clear what the product is. Right? Because, you know, for example, like, when you buy a BMW, right, there's a there's a low range to the high range. Right? Obviously, the high range gets you, you know, maybe maybe more safety features, cameras, and all this stuff. And in a low range, you you you it's like, I don't need all this stuff. I just want something cheap to drive. I think there are markets for both types of spectrum. There are people that just want I just want a simple exposure to Bitcoin.
Like, I don't really care about whether whether there's any regulatory ambiguity in this product because I might be investing for this in 6 months, and I'm and I'm out. Yep. That's fine. But for someone to go into this long term, you know, and then realize that this is structured, that they're not, they they were not tall or, you know, didn't realize that that's a problem. I wouldn't have invested. I wouldn't have bought the, the cheaper BMW if I didn't realize it doesn't come with Apple CarPlay. Mhmm. Right. I would have spent the money to buy the high end model. But it's like the marketing material suggests that every BMW in a price range different pricing of the same BMW, that's where the problem comes in. People are gonna get confused.
Yeah. I think I think things things will change. Like, it's hard for, you know, monochrome, you know, the underdog underdog and then me alone really talking about this issue. The people that knows about this problem is really small. It's a handful of people in Australia actually understand this problem. I find that people overseas in the US and UK and Canada notice the problem right away more than the Australians because they do not have this problem. They go that they go that this is kind of insane. Like, how did Australia have all this type of Bitcoin ETF structured differently, marketed the same, and then there is actually a licensing framework for actual bitcoin ETF to emerge, but then you have all this, you know, structures that are bypassing the framework trading together.
It's like it's a little bit it's a little bit of a unfortunate situation.
[00:32:50] Unknown:
Yeah. And look. As you as you put it, it's all of these type of investment setups. Each in their own have their own benefits. As long as it is easily understood by your general consumer who's gonna be wanting to invest in this particular asset class, then you choose to, you know. Again, if you wanna get on the passive exposure of money, then sure. That's fine. If you maybe are more in an ideology, and for most people, it's not until the outcome comes out that the final input for at least for an ETF. Putting money in, maybe you expect to get some money out, insert timeline.
It's at that point that you'll then actually notice what the difference is potentially, whether you wanna extract it with Bitcoin or, oh, okay. Actually, it's an exposure, and now I've got a taxable event. Yeah. People should should be looking into that. The Australian problem. So I wanna I wanna touch on the on the Australian problem. So it is obvious, it seems, if you're from the US, if you're you're the UK or other places, you're like, what's going on? What's what's Australia happening? How would you summarize, I guess? Why why do we have such a struggle from a regulation perspective, from understanding these sort of concepts that seem to be fairly par for the course for most other places. What what are we getting wrong in Australia? Is a did something begin wrong, you know, and the knowledge wasn't spread correctly? Do we have challenging regulators or or regulations in place that don't let us really set up? Because of course, for monochrome, it was a challenge. It was a really big challenge to put together the spot, you know, Bitcoin ETF. So what is it? What are we getting wrong here in Australia in that regard?
[00:34:22] Unknown:
I think I think there's really, there's no there's no really right or wrong in this. There's a lot of legal technicalities in it. And, you know, these are, you know, so called, lack of a better word, loopholes. But again, loopholes will eventually get close. Maybe they don't. Who knows? But, so how do we get to the how do we get here? Right? So in in June of 2021, ASIC, which is a Australian Securities Investment Commission, came up with a proposal to, a consulting consulting stage to to figure out how do we put crypto into exchange trader exchange trader products, ETFs, CTPs. The conclusion of that is, you know, is is summarized in report 705, which was published in the 29th October in 2021, which says that, yes, crypto basically summarized it as that crypto is unique unique risk, etcetera.
And for that and we don't like we don't agree that it's a commodity. You know, it's it's a different thing, so we're gonna create a new asset category add a category called crypto assets, and responsible entities that want to hold Bitcoin directly in the refund that's offered to retail need to apply for a special license to do that. Simple enough. It makes sense. I think it's perfect. I think Australia actually went down a really progressive path to even come up with that framework. And if you look at the framework, it's actually pretty good. Like, you talk about cost customer requirements, talk about benchmarking, talk about the Iosco standard for for using, you know, benchmark providers and all this stuff. And and then, you know, when it comes to the actual application of these licenses, you know, where where peep you know, people with industries is arguing on the technicalities of the the the requirements. It's like, you know, if I don't hold Bitcoin directly in my retail fund, I hold shares in something else, and if something else holds the Bitcoin, then I can argue my my weight argue myself out of the requirement to get licensed. I mean, it's a bit, you know, it's a it's a bit ridiculous, but I think there is no right or wrong answers in this. Like, you know, sometimes the the the course of law will take its own own logic. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, times, you know, people might not agree with how, you know, people argue against the law, but I think it's the right for people to argue against the integrity of the law if, in a country, because that shows that the country has a free and open, you know, sort of, like, system to challenge this. Because if everything is in the law is unchallengeable, then we don't have we don't really have a free country. Mhmm.
But, you know, in this case, we gotta figure out is this worth it? Is this worth to risk it? Is it worth to risk your investors, your reputation, and ultimately the reputation of Australia, like, by doing this. It's like, if Monochrome can do it, Monochrome can go apply for a license to to to, you know, to build the IPTC product, everyone else could. You know, we already underdoxing this underdoxing this case. I think, you know, there's no reason why sort of bigger players can't do it. And, and I think that, really we should be talking about more is that, you know, people need to realize that there is a licensing framework, for crypto, the whole you have to hold crypto, and why is it important? I think a lot of people sort of like, this doesn't concern me. Right? It's like I don't really care, but I I tell people that they should care and a few reasons why. I was gonna say, yeah, what what are those reasons? I think, like, the the licensing framework takes care, obviously, a lot of these re protect vessel protection outcomes. It's like it's like saying that, alright. In order to sell, you know, in order to sell your your your I don't know. Just give an example. Your laptop here in Australia. Right? You need to you need to make sure that your, you know, your specs and everything is safe to the Australian standard, your plugs, everything is, like, maximum, this, minimum, or that. Mhmm. And based on the rule, if the product doesn't meet Australian requirement, then sell it selling it here might be illegal. Right? Because you don't wanna be, you know, shipping a bunch of, like, you know, cheaply made knock off of MacBooks and then it blows up in schools. Mhmm. Right? It's not what you you know, that's that's that's terrible. So standards are put in place so that the manufacturers of these products, you know, follow a strict standard of the procedure to build it. Same thing as a Bitcoin ETF. There's a lot of parts into a Bitcoin ETF. Right? It's the custody. It's the benchmark. It's how you actually, you know, you know, you know, run the operations of the ETF, how you purchase the Bitcoin, how you redeem the Bitcoin. And these are all procedures that have gaps.
Bitcoin, arguably, is a is a much more riskier product to operate because imagine in the in the in the withdrawal process, if you send the Bitcoin to the wrong address, that's it. You Go on for it. You let someone redeem the Bitcoin. It's like, yo, you didn't realize that, you didn't realize that, you know, you need to put a change address in in in stuff like that. If you didn't nominate a change address, then then you you have a problem. And then you don't realize that, oh, you know, how do you partition UTXO? What if you get dusted? Mhmm. Not as technical things like, you know, like nerds like us would know, and we know how to deal with it. And these are standards there are standards in place to make sure that these things are followed, and then the custody provider knows what to follow, there's a standard. Whereas, if you're just, like, building something that replicates a what a regulated product should be in your own in your own thinking, then you might be going that, alright. I don't need to build, the laptop directly to specification.
I just build what I think is good. Right? And and it's like, alright. That's cool. I'm a I'm a trained engineer. I know my electricians. I got a PhD in this. So whatever I put in this stuff is legit as good. Maybe maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong. Right? If there's no regulatory standards for for the product to adhere to, then you're just under the benevolent benevolence of the issuer to go say what's safe and what's not, and what the procedures the right procedures to do a b c should be. So I I don't think these problems will be much short term. It's more of a long term team. And then the other thing is the regulatory risk. Right? It's a it's a very obviously embarrassing loophole that, you know, it's it's it's that we have to we have to we have to wear because we are part of the ETF story in Australia.
And if there is there is new regulations introduced to fix it, you know, there might be unintended unintended consequences for investors that are in the fund. But that that that loophole gets closed. Would have to be could have to be wound up, not in the face of a new fund. And, I think there are also, like, tax treatments of, you know, these types of funds and things like that because of how ATO treats Bitcoin. You know, these are really nuanced stuff that would really show, you know, that, you know, these things are not as simple as it seems. And, obviously, everything everything is open.
Like, I'm pretty sure they disclosed this risk and everything in their product disclosure agreement as we do, but, you know, it's, it's it's one thing to hide, you know, the the dangers of the products and the nuances of the product away, and then talking another thing in public. And I try to tell people that this thing this thing is legit, this thing is a a spot Bitcoin ETF, they can say that because there's no legal definition of what a spot Bitcoin ETF is. Right. You can create a derivative spot Bitcoin ETF. As long as you're meeting these requirements even if it gone through the loophole, there's so many There's no there's no legal requirement of calling a swap because of ETF. Mhmm. It's like it's like there is technically no legal requirement to call a u a ute. You can market a ute as an SUV.
Mhmm. Right? But because the problem is so known, people pick up and it's like, this is ridiculous. Probably in the Bitcoin world So you don't know how to you you don't know that a unit looks like a unit. People don't know what a unit looks like. People don't know what a SUV looks like. People just know what which has heard of what a Bitcoin ETF is and assume that these are all the same products.
[00:42:37] Unknown:
That's a that's a I think that's a problem we gotta fix. Well, this is kind of like the comparison of, one of the late the latest, say, Ferrari SUV and and a Mazda 3, right, for the untrained eye or just someone who just cares about, like, a car. Oh, it's just a car. Right? What's the difference between a car? And it takes someone to know who's differences and under the hood and everything else to go, okay. No. There is a difference. I've got a scary thought that just came up and hopefully you can negate this. But you're talking about the loophole and obviously not monoclonal, but others. What they are doing as a feeder fund is they don't hold the Bitcoin. They instead, you know, channel that money over to somewhere else where it's actually being held a particular Bitcoin.
Is there anything in the regulation stopping though a feeder fund holding Bitcoin plus other things as a collection and that being sort of marketed as the, oh, yeah. We are tracking to the Bitcoin price.
[00:43:27] Unknown:
I think I think if you read the PDF of one of these one of these 2 feeder funds, I wouldn't wanna name any names. You'll find out that one of them do not, you know, has this very it's a very caveat says that they might engage in derivatives.
[00:43:41] Unknown:
That's scary. That that that is scary and I think so I say that that's scary. I want you can you just highlight to people? Because I think if you if you're on the same financial markets and then you've play around or or seen what's happened in the past, right, you know, through through crashes and the like, why is it important or scary or risky that it might potential be oh, and derivatives?
[00:44:03] Unknown:
Because that's not said lightly. Yeah. I I think I think everyone's everyone's risk tolerance is different. Right? Like I said I said some some like I said, some people think that it's fine. Like, it's I only wanna buy Bitcoin and hold it for 6 months, and I don't really care after that because, you know, I have different plans with my money. But then, again, everyone's risk profiles and risk tolerance is different. The the other risk is that people don't realize that where in IBTC, we intentionally structured so that people can retain the right to their Bitcoin, that they can call for the Bitcoin to be delivered to them. Right? And because the IBTC is structured as a bare trust, there is no, you know, there's no change of beneficial ownership during the course of that transaction, from a from a from a tax perspective. And that's actually really significant.
Because, for example, if you buy, say, a a fund a Bitcoin fund that doesn't allow for that function, you know, that ETF could potentially when when when Bitcoin doubles, you know, triples, whatever it is, that ETF can slowly creep up their fees. Right? As long as the creeping up of the fees is less painful than you having to sell and pay taxes on your gains when you don't want to, people are stuck in the fun. And that's that's that's gonna that's gonna be a fun thing to look at and also a fun thing to be involved. I think, these things are what people don't realize is that, like, for example, the IBTC, if you're unhappy, if we have a you know, in future, monochrome decides to increase their fees by, you know, 5 times, you can take the Bitcoin out and go somewhere else.
Right? And whereas, you know, if you're locked in a one way street, then, yes, you might get you might save, you know, tens of dollars or 100 of dollars by choosing a cheaper product, over over a cost of a time. But then is it really worth it? I think if people have the information in front of their heads, in front of their faces, they would understand the difference and then make a more informed choice. But the real problem is that, I think retail investors in Australia don't have the luxury at the moment. Everything all the different Bitcoin ETFs in Australia, all different, but their market look like they're the same. The same.
[00:46:21] Unknown:
The this is exactly what happened not too many years ago with, super superannuation, right, through the ATO. And what went there was, again, take back a couple of years for most people, it was sort of like, oh, well, it's a superannuation account. They're all supers. I'll just hold it wherever. And some of them have a bit more fees or less fees, but they've got the variations, but it's hidden to see. The, thing that went through, which is your future, your super through the ATO. And that legislation change allowed it so that every super was compared. There was actual benchmarking of when they weren't meeting things and it became a little bit more visual. You could see what is that's happening with your money. You can move around in that space.
But that's a very good call out that you made that I hadn't actually thought about is that, yes, there's 3 Bitcoin funds. Maybe we'll have more. Right? But if you wanna get involved in that particular asset class, choose wisely where you go to because you don't have the, I guess, the flexibility with some of these others to move around if you choose to. Because as you say, you're gonna get stuck with a tax taxable event at that point, and maybe other players which are also deciding to to move rates or do things because they are I don't know. They're not holding the Bitcoin directly. So you're limited to your choices. So I think it's, it's a piece of being informed, really, about what the products are that you're buying.
I see this as the smart money that gets it, they're okay. They're gonna get it. You're gonna figure it out. The smart money that doesn't get it, there's gonna be some pain. And then there's the the usuals, like a regular individual who just wants to be exposed to Bitcoin, who doesn't want to go and purchase it on their own or hold their own keys. Maybe low money, dumb money, that can get really hurt really hurt on that. You know, it's a mom and dad who think, oh, you know, I wanna I wanna just buy into this. I've heard about Bitcoin from my from a, child or something. Let's get into it. Go to a particular fund thinking it's one thing by what's being marketed. And all of a sudden, damn, there wasn't in that 2, 3, 4 years later, whether it's regulation or, you know, they want an exit point at that particular, juncture.
The the other one that I wanted to ask you, because I'm I'm interested in this. Right? And I think other people would be. You you you're talking about at at one point, if you want, you can receive Bitcoin from the monochrome fund at any point you choose. How does that actually look like? Do you do you then would expect the individuals on the other side to provide essentially just an an address to be sent? Is that as simple as it actually works? Or is there more steps
[00:48:41] Unknown:
involved in receiving that from the bare trust? Yeah. So that's a because the bare trust, A bare trust means that you retain legal ownership of the asset. Right? So, you have if you have legal ownership of your asset, what the ATO term is called absolute entitlement, you can call for the asset to be delivered to you like a gold bullion being withdrawn from a gold ETF. The process with Bitcoin obviously is a bit different because, you know, there's no physical bullion. There is a process for us to convert the holding into a, what we call a security hold reference security holder reference number holding from a HIN, which is an off market option.
To then then, you know, you need to provide, to our satisfaction satisfaction that you control the address Mhmm. For the Bitcoin to be delivered to it. You know, the specific sort of the procedures are all you know, there's there's a there's a there's a step to do it, but all in all, we just need to make sure that we're sending the coin to the right person. Because that, you know, that That's important. That's important.
[00:49:44] Unknown:
And and the reason I ask because for a long time now, it's been one and a half years where this podcast has been purely, purely funded by getting satoshi's fractional Bitcoin sent to it. That is purely how this podcast market. So it means that we're not susceptible to advertising. We don't have to care the platforms that we operate in. Even if, you know, the major ones go down, there's plenty of others that, you know, are supported in its, lightning network sort of, predominantly focused. Right? And so I see it's a different space, but in the same problem where, again, the understanding of how to manage your Bitcoin or your Satoshis in a fractional way, it's still very early days. And I see that the case right now where in the market, I I think monochrome is doing a fantastic job of informing people because let's say, people who've been around for a while, they get it. You know, you don't they don't need to get it. But it's the large masses and, you know, we talked about. Australia sometimes just doesn't get it. And it's informing people of what it really is, how do you operate with it, and how do you move it about, and really think about not just don't treat it, I guess, not just as a normal other share. It's, you know, it's a different asset class. Understand what it actually means.
What from talking to a lot of people, I know you had a a launch party down down in Sydney. What's the most common question you get asked about the monochrome, spot, Bitcoin ETF? Like, what's what's the the biggest question that just seems to be okay. I get asked this all the time. Well, how would you answer it? Oh, we get asked all the time about how can they access in their super all the time. Yep. What's the answer? Because I I was talking I was thinking about this and talking to my partner about it this morning. So so how does that actually work? I think I think unless you have this SMSF, a self managed super fund,
[00:51:24] Unknown:
you'll you'll find that surely it will take a much longer time for superannuation trustees to be comfortable with Bitcoin related products. So that will take a long time. There's a process to get the products up there and, you know, to write to the right ratings agencies to get it approved. And then the investment manager of the super funds can decide if it's the allocation, is it self directed, is it paternal. But I think that's gonna take time. It makes a lot of sense because, you know, these people that are asking obviously sees Bitcoin as a long term, asset, and they want exposure with it exposure to it. And super is also a long term investment for, you know, to to to most people that are, you know, just starting their careers.
And, the people that are mostly, you know, in their early thirties, you know, going to the peak income years, the the millennials, the Gen Z's, these are the people that are most interested in Bitcoin. So it makes sense for a lot of people to to it's like if I to to think about if I have 30 years more in my super, I might be comfortable having 10% of it in Bitcoin. Mhmm. Right? Or maybe even 5, even 1%, whatever the number is. But, again, if you're if you're if you're not running your own self managed super fund, you are relying on the super fund trustee to make the decision, to make it available.
[00:52:48] Unknown:
And I don't think that will be anytime soon. Yeah. Okay. Which is a shame, actually, because that, Australia for the longest time, and I've heard it more and more now, the property price in Australia have been going up quite a bit. And whoever you talk to in Australia is very well known. You know? Property is like the king asset for us. Since you grow up, it's let's get a property that's what you want. It would be a phenomenal, although I'll they'd probably be very hard to transform that as you're saying for people who are 20 30 into the you know, what if we became more of, like, Bitcoin or, you know, a different asset. But for me, you know, Bitcoin would be the the big thing.
I had a an early chat with your wife, around, you know, the future of things. And I was talking about my my little my little girl who's 13 months old. This generation, this new generation who's gonna be coming through. I can even tell you that we've got a little, wooden board at home that she pulls out, at nighttime. And it's just all the letters of the of the alphabet with little different characters. But the b, right, I didn't even realize. The b is actually shaped like Bitcoin on this particular wind board. I I'm pretty sure we got it from Vinnie, from her mom. And I went, what in the world? Now it isn't Bitcoin, but it's got the b with the actual, two lines at the top, which I was like, wow. It's supposed to be something else. But I keep saying to her, b for Bitcoin. 25 years from now, right, of the generation who's gonna be coming through. What do we have to get Ryan?
Do we have to do anything for Bitcoin to continue to do what it it is if you're looking at it from an ideology perspective
[00:54:17] Unknown:
to continue to do and proceed down the path that it should. Do we have to do anything about it? Yeah. I think I think people people play that real estate card all the time. It's like, oh, you know, real estate is just always gonna go up forever because the government would always make sure it goes up. Alright? No government will make it go down. I think people are missing the whole point here is that Bitcoin is an asset that is free from political interference and free from sovereign risk. And what I mean by that is that almost all the asset class asset classes out there, there's a degree of, you know, a risk a risk for, you know, the asset class to be dramatically devalued, if a policy is introduced.
Right? And, I think in the in the times where geopolitical geopolitical tension is its highest in modern times and all these conflicts around the world, you know, political risk and sovereign risk to traditional assets, makes it really hard for people to plan sort of long term generational wealth building and preservation because, yep, you know, maybe in my time would be fine, but what if my kid's time, what if what if the government turns more towards the left? And what if the, you know, what if this happens? What if all this stuff? But I think that Bitcoin is interesting because it's a distinct asset class to everything else. Like, you might have investment in all kinds of stuff, but do you really have something that don't share, you know, the same, you know, political risk or sovereign risk in your portfolio.
I think that's what people miss, and a lot of, like, people that are older that made money through, you know, this whole sort of, like, policies that are created to, you know, to improve the housing market, you know, performance and everything to make people, you know, make people happy and, you know, voters happy. Mhmm. At the end of the day, right, these are rules that are written by by people. And rules can be an you know, can be unwritten. Rules can be disrupted. People can become corrupt. Regimes can fall, whereas Bitcoin can't. So I I I keep telling people that, you know, people argue that, oh, Bitcoin is virtual. I can't touch it by my property. I can.
But at the end of the day, right, your right to live in that property and call it yours and your ability to then sell it onto somebody else is underwritten by human law. Right? Human laws are also virtual as virtual as Bitcoin. Whereas human laws can change. It has changed. Now who owns the properties, next to the pyramid of Giza? Nobody nobody knows. It's gone. Right? Who who now who now owns the houses that are being bombed in, in Gaza? Nobody knows. These are all virtual rights. I mean, these are terrible situation examples. But what I'm trying to point out is that, property rights, right to assets, these are all human laws, and laws can change. Laws can be corrupted, altered, augmented, not in your lifetime, but over time it will. Mhmm. You don't observe ancient Egyptian law anymore.
Like, all these laws that people live and die for in line in the face of duty and honor, like, it doesn't matter anymore, you know, in just generations. Bitcoin, although it's virtual, but the laws of Bitcoin is entirely unmovable. So, both are virtual concepts. Human laws are virtual. Bitcoin is virtual. Laws can change, Bitcoin can't. Simple as that. I think that people should look at Bitcoin a bit differently. That's why I say, you know, don't just look Bitcoin at Bitcoin like the blind man and the elephant story, but actually step out of that. I know a lot of people come with cognitive biases against Bitcoin. It's like, you know, deep down they just they just objected to that something that how can I be so wrong about this stuff for 10 years?
But then, you know, it's fine because it's something new. No one no no one in the world has an experience with something like Bitcoin in the last you know, in the generation before, this is entirely something new. 15 years. And I think and I think people should give themselves a bit more, a bit more forgiveness. Like, maybe I got this strong. I should look at it a different way. And that's what monochrome do. Right? We help people to understand the nuances of Bitcoin, what it is. That's why the whole slew of Monoclonal research is there. We've been doing we've been producing Bitcoin research for 3 years, and it was we'll be we'll keep doing that. I mean, education is something that we're really passionate about. I think people should really understand it. That's why I've been I'm a big advocate for people should understand Bitcoin.
People should understand what the Bitcoin ETFs products are. It's if you if you look at the whole thing that I'm I've been really passionate about, it's about education, clarity. We're not here to just do it because it's suddenly cool. Mhmm. We've been doing this for a way longer time than people realize. Yep. Yeah. I know. It's it's knowing knowing why is a very important thing before you jump in,
[00:59:13] Unknown:
for what you're trying to get to. Final question for you is a little bit different. I don't think I've asked you this, but I've I've always been interested in. What is your take on the word inflation?
[00:59:24] Unknown:
What's your take on inflation? Yeah. So I think I think there is, there's 2 school of thoughts when it comes to inflation. That's why of Bitcoiners and and economists sort of clash. Mhmm. Because, the Bitcoin the Bitcoin view in in sort of like the the, the the way that they view inflation is that the expansion of monetary base. Right? Like, the government print more money. The US printed 40% of the US dollar in the last x month or whatever. And then the sort of Keynesian view is that inflation is the is the, you know, the rising cost of, you know, goods, the met a few metrics of different kinds of goods, and then that's inflation.
So, Bitcoiners sees that, well, if the government is printing 15% more currency or 20% more currency a year, that is that is, like, you know, the currency being diluted by if the currency is being diluted by 20%, how can inflation be 3%? How can inflation even be 5%. It should be more. But then again, it's a it's a clash of ideologies. I think I think, you know, we just gotta we just gotta look in reality, like, how much more are we paying for groceries, rent, and all this stuff. And, you know, some of them are not cost per money printing, but most of them are. So, yeah, I mean, like, inflation is something that really,
[01:00:44] Unknown:
caused a lot of, contention amongst, Bitcoiners and mainstream economists. Yeah. And I think it does. And the reason that I mentioned it is because beyond anything else, I think, when people, get excited about it having the exposure of Bitcoin and being able to, I guess, purchase the purchase the asset without having to go through an exchange or holding it themselves. There is, as I said, the learning part of the long term. And, if you do believe that if you go down that path of thinking of, well, you know, our currency is being debased or devalued. And what does that mean in terms of your spending power? There's, you know, very few asset classes out there that will potentially stand the test of time. And look, for me personally, it's one of those things that I'm starting to talk about of, okay, we we have a daughter now. What does that look like from a generational perspective? And when you start looking through history, you know, what does it look like for currencies, in terms of the ups and downs? And you go back and you go, they'll work in cycles. Right? There's, you know, beforehand you had the US, but pre world war 1, world war 2, you know, the British pound was actually the biggest thing. Things up and up up and and go around. Right? And it's it is just so keen to be aware whether it is about, you know, we've got 3 ETFs here in Australia and what does that actually look like, in terms of being informed for what it does, all the way to why you buy why are you wanting to go down the path of the Bitcoin asset? That's a very important thing. Yeah.
Jeff, we're gonna wrap it up there. Really appreciate it for jumping on on board with the 3rd conversation. Any last words for the mere models at home? Yeah. I think I think, like, you know, reflecting on this episode,
[01:02:09] Unknown:
it's about really why we're here. Right? Why we're building a Bitcoin ETF? Why we why we're advocating for clearer definition of Bitcoin ETFs? It's because, like I said, you know, the Bitcoin is a phenomenon for the next generation. If you realize a lot of old school investors, what are their kids interested in Bitcoin? You know, what are what are their kids talking about in school? Bitcoin. I think it is the generational shift in in the interest and things like that that's gonna cause a lot of inflows into the asset class. Mhmm. And we just need to be ready to accept people into the asset class in a safe regulated manner.
Like, if we continue, to to to play sort of the cowboy in the wild west kind of thing, then you're gonna turn away a lot of investors that are seriously considering allocation into Bitcoin. So, you know, my you know, my previous life, I was running crypto exchanges. Mhmm. I've been doing this for a long time, and now I'm running Australia's only real true Bitcoin ETF that holds Bitcoin, which is it's sometimes ridiculous. You gotta explain it that way. But the end of the day, right, it's like, have I actually walked out from the Wild West? Sometimes looking at what's happened in the last couple of weeks, like, you know, sometimes I feel like I just walked from one Wild West and another smaller guns to the Wild West with the bigger guns. Yeah. But I hope that's not gonna be that forever. I hope things will change.
We continue to fight for investors, you know, the right to access information clearly, not get confused, and, ultimately help people realize that, you know, more information and more clear information helps them make better choice, helps them make better investment choices for themselves, for their kids, whatever. I think, that's what we'd be advocating for. You know? Mhmm.
[01:03:58] Unknown:
Yeah. One more to say. That's all there is. Thank you very much, Jeff. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Juan.
Again, strikes me as it's a money play. There's a lot of money here. And again, it's money, technology, and ideology when it comes to Bitcoin. How friendly is it between the ETFs? Do you guys, you know, have open conversations around, yeah, let let's share this, how we doing it, we're all doing it to the market. Or is it very competitive to the point of, you know, you're seeing people get blocked in that. Why? What what's what's what's going on behind the scenes in in reality? Quick note. Investing in Bitcoin is volatile and high risk. Investors may incur significant losses including loss of their entire investment.
[00:00:29] Unknown:
Monochrome Bitcoin ETF, ticker, IBTC. Interests are issued by Vasco Trustees Ltd.AFSL 344-4486, the responsible entity for IBTC. The product disclosure statement and target market determination are available at www.ibtc.au.
[00:00:48] Unknown:
Bitcoin an investment for their future. When you're ready to take your investments to the next level, you might want to consider Monica.
[00:01:16] Unknown:
Much like regulations in motorsports, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF provides investors with a regulated and licensed pathway into the cryptocurrency market.
[00:01:29] Unknown:
Motorsport can be highly volatile. It's a calculated gain of risk versus reward. To manage these risks, there are regulations such as window nets and seatbelts. Without these regulations, the driver would be at greater risk. However, motorsports isn't for everyone. Just like in motorsports, investing in Bitcoin is volatile and high risk. So as we do in motorsports we get into the race car, everyone should assess the potential risks versus rewards before investing.
[00:02:07] Unknown:
Without a governing body such as race control setting the benchmark for the management of motorsport events, the drivers could be driving blind. In crypto, benchmarking provides the measurement yardstick for the price of Bitcoin. This benchmark has to be world class and regulator approved, which is why the monochrome Bitcoin ETF uses a benchmark that meets the highest standards regulated by the UK Financial Conduct Authority under European law to set its bitcoin price so you're not buying blind.
[00:02:46] Unknown:
Cars are expensive and precious assets, so it's important to keep you protected and in good condition. The same can be said for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a precious asset, needs to be kept securely. The monochrome Bitcoin ETF keeps your Bitcoin securely using a crypto custody solution, which meets Australian custody requirements.
[00:03:08] Unknown:
Hit stops can be the difference between wins and losses on the racetrack. The team is in control of the timing and speed of the stops and the tire selection pursuit conditions. In the same way, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF is structured as a bear trust, so you retain control over your Bitcoin. You can buy and hold, buy and sell, or buy and withdraw your Bitcoin when and how you choose.
[00:03:37] Unknown:
Motorsport is a safe and regulated way for us to pursue our high performance dreams. In exactly the same way, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF is the regulated pathway to gain exposure to Bitcoin and feel the performance of this nascent asset class.
[00:03:55] Unknown:
Jeff, it's the 3rd time back in here with the Mere Mortals podcast, and we've had quite a few conversations around architecture, photography. We've talked a lot about Bitcoin. We've talked a lot about cars. And today, I guess the main point really is ETFs. Right? So a lot of, I guess, Australians in retail market, probably in the separate markets have understood. Everyone's been hearing what is Bitcoin? But look. For at least me personally, in a lot of conversations that have started to come up is ETFs, Bitcoin, it's coming to Australia. It was happening in the US. I wanna hear from you. Let's begin.
What has been the journey for monochrome to have Australia's first spot Bitcoin ETF?
[00:04:35] Unknown:
Sure, Juan. I think, like, yeah, the last time we spoke, we're still building the product. An ETF is probably the most, a Bitcoin ETF is probably the most complex products to to build, that we've seen. I think what's, the distinction of, like, what we've been doing is that we're building and we've built a true direct spot Bitcoin ETF in Australia. And what I mean by that is that, you know, how the Bitcoin ETFs are in Canada, US, Hong Kong, like, simple product. Right? ETF holds Bitcoin, and and that's what a Bitcoin ETF should do. Whereas we take you the next step further, we made it possible for investors actually to withdraw Bitcoin from the ETF.
Because ultimately, you know, we're Bitcoiners, we're we're in this space, we geek out the space along along for a long, long time. We were here in the dark ages of the asset class. I'll say that's just not I'll say that that's that's behind us. But, you know, this passion really sort of instill us the the reason why we're building this product. You know, it's not it's not a it's not something that we're gonna make, you know, extra money at the bottom line because we have this asset class and and a slew of other stuff that we're doing, but we're very focused in what we're trying to deliver. Right? The mission is simple. Bring Bitcoin into the hands of as many people as possible, in a way that they're comfortable and in a safe way as well. And the ETF provides that.
And I think what's important for people to realize the difference between IBTC, which is the monochrome Bitcoin ETF's ticker, is that, this is a Bitcoin product. It's not a product that gives you exposure to the price of Bitcoin. There's actually real Bitcoin behind it, and you can withdraw the Bitcoin into your own wallet in the future or anytime if you want to. So that is not a sort of one way product win, whereby you can only sell it down to cash and cash it out, and then figure out how you wanna buy the Bitcoin back again. So, you know, there's a lot of layers to to peel through what the product is, but in in the mission in the simple mission is that we just want to make sure we get, you know, Bitcoin to hands over as many people as possible, you know, so, sort of like this, democratize the, the, the right to invest in whole Bitcoin to as many people as possible. Mhmm.
Like I said, familiar, safe way, and that's what a Bitcoin ETF is about.
[00:07:01] Unknown:
You've been, I think it from where we are right now, it's around 10 years in Bitcoin for yourself that you sort of very first, were talking about on the forums. I do remember this 2014. And since then, I guess, ideology is a big part part of it. Right? For yourself now, when you put this product at the market, which I think began all the way back in 2022 and even, you know, probably further beyond that. Now with that product in mind, that's sort of come through, has your the ideology changed at all for you on what Bitcoin is for individuals? Because what I wanna try to paint the picture for individuals is what monochrome is bringing from a product perspective.
Have a really clear mindset as to, you know, why the ideology is in terms of Bitcoin. Because a few spicy questions we wanna get into, but I just wanna lay the the groundwork there. The ideology for Bitcoin, 2014 to now, has it changed for you around what Bitcoin is?
[00:07:53] Unknown:
Yeah. I think I think people would describe sort of the old days of Bitcoin as to Wild West. You hear that being said a lot of times in sort of mainstream description of the space in general, Bitcoin and the other crypto and all this stuff. But I think I think that people miss, you know, there is a missed opportunity to just categorize the whole thing as a well west and dismiss it like we've seen recently. Bitcoin is an asset class for everybody. It's the first asset of its kind that has it's basically a true scarce commodity. Because Bitcoin is not really fitting into any sort of product category baskets that we're familiar with, and that's why probably a lot of people struggle to sort of understand it because they're viewing it as a in the lens of a commodity, which is not exactly right. It's a scarce commodity. Commodity means that anyone can produce an unlimited number of, you know, the more you put in, the more soy he can produce, the more wheat he can produce, but he can produce more Bitcoin because you put in you you try to do that.
And it's not a a it's not like a it's not real estate. It's not property. It's not this. It's not currency. So it's a lot of it's a it performs the functions of a lot of different stuff in in a way that people are familiar with, and that's how the early wave of Bitcoin, evangelists, they use that. I can pay someone, you you know, from some from a to b, without a bank, and that's cool. And that's a very easy way for people to understand Bitcoin. Oh, it's like money they could use on the Internet. And then when Bitcoin solidifies its value in people's head in people's mind, you know, progressively more, then people use a comparison like it's digital gold.
Again, you know, gold, bitcoin, yes, there's similarities, but I think the gold box would would would say that Bitcoin is not like gold. And, I say that, yes, Bitcoin is not like gold. It's better. Yep. Yeah. And I think the space now is that the institutional, maturity about around the asset class has certainly grown in the last, you know, we've seen since 2020 when Michael Saylor did the, Bitcoin Treasury move. Mhmm. And since then, we've seen ETFs in Canada pop up, US, now in Australia. And this is something fascinating for for a lot of people in traditional finance because most asset classes or investment opportunities incubate from the institutional level and then slowly make their way of it make their way down into retail.
The story of Bitcoin is completely flipped. You know, it started off with, you know, the cypherpunks, you know, the the nerds. Mhmm. And you can argue, you know, like, people like, you know, criminals, online cyber scams, and all this stuff. But it is it is ultimately, you know, a a political money that shows that everybody can use it. And then, you know, until now, today, you know, it's with the idea of Bitcoin has been incubated, it's it's moved moved beyond the narratives of the past, and it's really coming to solidify to people that this asset class is completely different. What do you think Bitcoin is? It's probably the story of the, the blind man and the elephant.
You know, if you're if you're touching the story goes like if you there are a few blind men, and they're next to an elephant and trying to describe what an elephant is, then, you know, the guy that's obviously obviously touching the tail, they describe it as like a it's like a snake. And the guy that's touching the the the legs would be like, oh, this is like a tree. A tree. Yep. Bitcoin Bitcoin is kind of going through that moment at the in this point of time, and people are still trying to figure out. And, obviously, there are these sort of Bitcoin nerds, you know, the Bitcoin scholars that would come on and actually debunk and argue back and, you know, back and forth on, like, why it's not this, why it's that. And I think that that's really, what, you know, what we we provide is that we're not just people that happen to stumble across Bitcoin or people that once do once once you build a Bitcoin ETF because it's cool and it's making money,
[00:11:41] Unknown:
we are here from the start. Like, we are, you know, we were in the trenches. We were in the dark ages. Like, we really believe the shit. Like Before and and let's just make it clear. You know? So there's there's been plenty of ETFs now that have come out in in the US. There's a couple of other here in Australia now. You guys were around playing in this space of Bitcoin before. That's probably the the the kernel of the idea was even in many of these institutions. Right? One of the things I've I've always heard it's, especially the now the story of the now is you come into Bitcoin for the money, you stick around for the technology, and then you're long term for the ideology.
And I think what I find in a lot of people who've been around through it, through dark ages, is you were there for the technology or the ideology first. You didn't come for the money because that didn't exist way back when. That's what I guess I see a lot in Monochrome. So for people who who haven't checked, monochrome put out a lot of research on Bitcoin as well. Right? To get on, you know, the understanding. And it's all the way down to very simple terms of what is Bitcoin? Why is it comparison to gold? What is that? To very, very complex conversations around investment. I don't know you in your socials actually post around what that means for self managed super funds and the like, which, you know, there's there could be hot water if it's not looked at properly and everything else that comes along with it.
That gets me to, and talking to socials. Now, the the comparisons. I was saying monochrome, first Australian spot Bitcoin ETF. There's 2 others playing around in the Australian market. If you're looking at, the last couple of days really for the media, because it's gonna come out really quite soon from when we're having this conversation. There's a few others on the ASX. But But it obviously strikes me that monochrome is not on the ASX. I know that you started the journey to get the ETF, the Bitcoin spot ETF on ASX back in 2022. We're in 2024, there's a bit of a delay.
Why, Jeff? Why did it take so long and then the decision to kind of move on to, CBOE Cboe, which used to be Chiex. Yep. Yeah. I think I think that everyone knows that we started off very vocally that we're building a Bitcoin ETF,
[00:13:39] Unknown:
on the ASX, and that was in 2021, 2022. We applied for ASIC's crypto asset licensing category that was introduced in late 2021, and we were one of the first Bitcoin ETF schemes to be approved, by ASIC. And, this this is very important, I think, knowing that the Australian regulators has actually created a framework for retail funds, which an ETF is, to hold Bitcoin directly. Well, the logic is really simple. Right? It's like Bitcoin it's not like other asset classes. There's different risks. There's different ways that you need to, you know, to show that you have the capability to manage this kind of stuff. I think, like, you know, throughout throughout the throughout the years, you know, like, we we've learned so much about Bitcoin, and it took us 10 years or 10 years to learn about this stuff. It's impossible for someone to come into this space in the last 2 years.
Right, because their boss told them to build something to because these are these things are seem to be making money, to understand the nuances on this kind of stuff. And then if you're taking a very traditional approach to view this, you're gonna get in trouble or you you there's higher chance you're gonna get in trouble. So the ASIC crypto licensing framework controls that. It sets the the level of what the the requirements for custody. It sets a requirement for benchmarking, which is how you price the Bitcoin ETF, And it sets, you know, things like, you know, you have to have a you know, you have to demonstrate the expertise in managing digital assets.
No matter how good you are at managing stocks and bonds and, you know, all this kind of stuff, it doesn't really matter as much because Bitcoin is different. So the IBTC, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF, is still, you know, the country's 1st and only Bitcoin ETF that's authorized through to directly hold Bitcoin. It's very different from the other products that you mentioned. The other products are structured very differently. My my my struggle is really to educate people that that's actually a difference. I think Australia I'll go back into the ASX SIBO thing, but I wanna elaborate this a bit more. We can talk about it later as well. It's that Australia is the outlier country where you have 3 Bitcoin ETFs in the country, and 3 of them are structured entirely differently, but 3 of them are marketing themselves like they're the same. It's a huge, huge problem. You know, it's misleading in my point of view. I think that, you know, the way that they're structured is, like I I said, the monochrome Bitcoin ETF holds the Bitcoin directly in the ETF, and that needs a license to do it.
The the EBTC, the Global X1, that was the 1st Bitcoin ETF in the country, but they are a feeder fund. So they build a retail wholesale feeder. So retail wholesale feeder means that retail fund do not invest in Bitcoin because that needs a license. So what it does is that it invests in a wholesale fund. Wholesale fund doesn't need to adhere to the retail crypto licensing framework, so the wholesale funds host the Bitcoin. It's a very smart, clever, bypassing way of going through that licensing process, and then the VanEck one is different as well. The VanEck one simply just feeds into the US ETF.
People say that, oh, you know, the it's it's great to see the ASX, you know, listing their 1st big on ETF, and people sort of compare that, oh, it's better than Cboe, but I beg to differ. Our experience tells us that, you know, Cbo is a much more mature exchange to that understand the this asset class and really how to manage the risk and emit products like that. Like I said, Bitcoin and crypto was just a different beast, a different asset class. That's why asset created a framework. And then the big irony is that, you know, the first Bitcoin ETF in ASX is a feeder fund into an existing ETF on CBOW Mhmm. US. So, I think people should give Cboe more credit than it than it in its deserving deserving the mainstream media.
In in the moment, everybody's celebrating, like, you know, ASX did something groundbreaking, which is groundbreaking, you know, in the sense that it's the first of its kind, but people do not realize that Cboe is far much more further in in this asset class. It's still the only stock exchange in the country that has emitted a real pure spot Bitcoin ETF, like the I like IBTC, the one that actually holds Bitcoin directly. And this is a very tricky thing to list. So we started the journey with ASX. They've been really patient with us. I think over time, you know, we seem to struggle with them on the on the light crypto framework. Mhmm. It has changed a few a slight few times in the course that we were there.
The real the frustration, it really is that I think, like, these guys are really hard working. They're they're working really hard to get a product up, but there are there are contradictions in the frameworks, especially for something to hold Bitcoin directly because it's new. These things takes time for people to get comfortable with. Like, a feat of fun is simple because you're leveraging off someone else's sign off of a product in a different country using the regulatory framework to as, like, someone has already given a stamp of approval with the US CCS, it's probably okay.
But to admit a product in Australia, in your exchange, that directly hosts Bitcoin, that is a different compliance appetite. So I think, eventually, you will see more, real spot Bitcoin ETF launch on the ASX, I hope. If given the opportunity, obviously, you know, we would explore every avenue. We wanna do what's best for the investors, I think but right now, we have we just have a definition problem. I think people need to realize that, a, there's a difference in all this Bitcoin ETF. It's a unique problem to Australia. It's, it's it's a may it's amazed me of how we got to this point. Like, it's almost almost feels like an embarrassment in the in the in the in the global country race of Bitcoin ETFs.
And I and I and I feel and I feel for and I feel for the guys at the ASX, and I feel for the guys at Cboe. You know? Both sides worked really hard. You know, and then when the marketing takes over, I think that's where, you know, they you know, it it sort of, like, becomes, you know, a more a bigger issue is, like, you know, do we want it go out go out to hold or to to tell the world that we've launched something like the real thing, but we know it's actually not yet quite not quite there. I think the answer, like, honestly is, you know, ethically, it's it's no. Like, we just wanna be honest on what the product is. If it's a if it's a master looking Mercedes, say it's a master looking Mercedes. Don't say it's a Mercedes. Right? And then we'll get there eventually, but we just gotta do it properly.
I think, we love we love the experience with ASX. The only thing that really stops us is that we just we just don't have the confidence that the framework would be able to admit a real direct spot Bitcoin ETF, like reason why I mentioned earlier, in the time frame that we won for, you know, investors. Like, with Citrue with Citrue, the, you know, the bull market, the bear market, and then the BlackRock ones in the US. Mhmm. And it's like and then the halving. And then we ask ourselves, you know, is this really what we're gonna do? Just keep waiting for years years. Mhmm. When the ETF the same ETF has already been approved, by on the AFSL level.
So when we looked at Cboe, again, this is this whole process of waiting took two and a half years, we realized that Cboe is really, like, really doing good stuff. Like, you know, example, the ETF market share has gone up. Mhmm. I think they're closer to, like, 45% now, compared to the ASX. So the ETF market, the volume everything is, like, strongest growing. And I I do feel that there's a lot of people that wanna support Cboe to become, you know, a real, serious contender, in in the you know, in the face of the ASX. I think it's working. So I think, you know, a duopoly stock exchange system works better for the outcome for consumers, not just for the consumers, but also for the people that are listing, products that are listing as well. It gives, you know, the competition gives, you know, levels the playing field a little bit. I think it helps everybody.
More choices is better than less choices. Absolutely. And we really, really enjoy, you know, seeing, like, SIBO growing day to day and really, you know, doing what they say they're doing. Mhmm. That's why we move our application to SIBO. And, you know, that's, low and behold, it's, it's approved and now we're trading. So,
[00:22:15] Unknown:
kind of complete. Which is kind of, amazing that you're talking about you know, 21 2021, 2022, and you would have moved over early this year to sort of progress down the path of Cboe. And all of a sudden, few months and here we are, you know, you came out early June. I believe that's that's correct. In June 4th perhaps. I think it's that. But a couple of months and all of a sudden we've got the the monochrome, spot, ETF for to holding Bitcoin. I wanna underline the the Australian problem because I wanna wanna hear about that. Perhaps maybe in a little bit more of the internal detail that you see in that. But I kinda get past something that I saw yesterday and today. Someone actually commented on the socials of the VanEck, ETF, Bitcoin ETF.
I rather that actually isn't a ETF that holds Bitcoin. The individual actually tagged monochrome. But lo and behold, you yourself have been blocked from seeing any of the social, at least on Twitter that I saw on x. Their their post, you've actually been blocked from from seeing the Australian Van Eck information. They made me wonder, because also today, today being the 21st June, I was sort of believe it was yesterday actually, that the prices for the global x ETF also sort of came out as well. We're gonna lower our our rates, you know? Make it a little bit more incentive. Which again strikes to me as it's a money play. There's a lot of money here. And again, it's money technology and ideology when it comes to Bitcoin. How friendly is it between the ETFs? Do you guys, you know, have open conversations around, yeah, let let's share this, how we doing it, we're all doing it to the market.
Or is it very competitive to the point of, you know, you're seeing people get blocked in that. Why? What what's what's Yeah. What's going on behind the scenes in in reality?
[00:23:51] Unknown:
I think, like, there's 2 2 issues here. Right? So I think one is that, like I said, I I never interacted with the Fennec Australia, Twitter account before at all. Not even like, follow, comment, nothing. And then, I saw a post, someone told me to attack us. And as I look at the see I look at the stuff that they're retweeting. It's like, I can't see it. It says that the post been blocked. So but looking at the comments, I guess this is about the VanEck Bitcoin ETF. So went into the VanEck page and is like, they blocked they blocked me and they blocked all the monochrome accounts, which is kinda weird. I mean, like, maybe it's someone maybe it's someone in the social media team just just did that for for whatever reason. I don't understand. But I think, like, that's not that's not really good. Like, we don't block people, that kind of stuff. But I guess that, if I were to take a take a step in why possibly possible we are we are we are a persona non grata in in the Van Eck sort of eyes, it's probably because we're very vocal in calling out, feeder funds as feeder funds.
But nothing wrong not there's nothing wrong with feeder funds. Right? Like, feeder funds, it's a it's a very well established use instrument to get exposure to a lot of, you know, other stuff that are not available in Australia. But, you know, marketing a feeder fund as a spot direct holding product, it's it's where sort of, like, I come out and say that that's a bit too far. That's that's pulling it back a little bit. And and I think people should be aware of what they're buying. And I think that making it clear to people that, like, this is a feeder fund. Are you okay with that? Feeder funds has has its own benefits. Right? Feeder funds are cheaper, products to maintain, cheaper products to run. It doesn't need a license, you know, But, again, it doesn't because it doesn't need a license, there are different level of investor protection, that are that are that comes with this product. So I think the market, we just should be more transparent and upfront about what our products are. Like, Monoclon has always been really upfront. Like, we we educate people about this, you know, crypto licensing framework. We educate people about the different types of Bitcoin ETFs in the market. Mhmm.
And that's what really should be at you know, people should be advocating more is that the transparency of the nature of this product. Because I can see that, you know, eventually when things gets cleaned up, when people have to be, you know, fessed up to to the nature of gas stuff, better naming conventions and whatnot, then people will realize that I wouldn't have bought your stuff because if I knew it was like that, you know, I wouldn't have bought that master looking Mercedes when I if I knew that it actually was a master that looks like a Mercedes. I thought I was buying a Mercedes. But again again, I think that, it should it should not be looked in a way that we're, like, criticizing them or something. We're just trying to point out to to retail investors that, hey. I think you guys should do your own research.
There are differences. I know, like, monochrome's voice in the mainstream media is not as strong and vocal as some of these traditional players. We don't have, you know, that long established relationship with the journalists at Stem. So our voice in the mainstream media get diluted a lot, but we hope that through, you know, social media platforms like Twitter or maybe a podcast like this, We help educate people, know that know the problem in a way empowering them with more information so they can make better choices. Mhmm. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And look to
[00:27:23] Unknown:
that, I saw an article today, actually. And I'll I'll put it up on the actual video if you if you look at this file video. But the article, it was talking about the Van Eck ETF, I believe it was. And very clearly saying, hey, this is a spot Bitcoin. And then proceeded to explain what a spot Bitcoin is. And it absolutely doesn't do that in terms of, hey, holding the Bitcoin directly, being able to pull it out. You can't do that with that particular ETF. That's not what it's about. And so it struck me as you were saying it, that is what a consumer would be looking at and then expecting, as you said. The 3 ETFs, well, they're all gonna be participating in the same way. Wrong. So, yeah, it wouldn't do that. If you go into the monochrome website right now, and you just go into the Bitcoin ETF for I BTC, it was a very clear there's 3 big callouts. But the main callout right at the top, of these three sections is you have a one to one pairing to a Bitcoin. And in essence and short, you can, if you want to, pull out what you have in that particular ETF in the form of Bitcoin. That sorry. Correct me here. That is unique to being able to hold a spot of Bitcoin of, I guess, spot bit Bitcoin ETF.
The others don't do that. Am I am I correct in saying that? At this stage, surely. Yeah. That's that's the case.
[00:28:40] Unknown:
Well, I think that these products these products are not actually bad. Like, they're legitimate products in their own rights. Mhmm. But it's, it's the marketing of these products that, you know, come out comes off as a little bit ambiguous. Mhmm. It's like how can a ETF that holds Bitcoin directly and an ETF that holds shares in another fund that holds then then then holds Bitcoin, be categorized as the same. Mhmm. You know, both are calling themselves spot Bitcoin ETF. I mean, in in in the US, like I said, you don't have this problem. Every single spot Bitcoin ETF, right, is structured exactly the same way. It's like ETF holds Bitcoin. Period. Done. And that's good because the investor can shed themselves with the burden of, like, well, you know, I know the structure. They're all the same. Now I just compare the fees and, you know, oh, these guys use that custodian. I, you know, I like I like this custodian over that custodian. That's cool, you know, and then the fees. Like, it's easy to make comparisons if you're presented with the same structured product. Mhmm. The same products that are in the same structure.
Instead of, like, you know, similar sounding products, but in nature they're all different. Mhmm. And then you're you're then required to go down that rabbit hole to then figure out what these differences are, and then categorize them again to start making the comparison on price and all this stuff. I think, that's a very bad investor protection outcome for retail in Australia. I think that should change. It makes sense that something should change. It's just it just, you know, it's going down the really weird path. Like, people people even in a in a in in UK has reached out to me. It's like, how do how does how do we get it so wrong in Australia? It's so simple. A Bitcoin ETF holds Bitcoin. But, you know, a bunch of you know, the funny thing is I can say, like, the old the old 3 Bitcoin ETF in Australia at the moment, and they are structured entirely differently. It's like it's it's so misleading for for some people.
I think, and then there's I mean, like, I wanna preface. Right? There's nothing wrong with these products. Right? Like, I think, you know, every product obviously has gone through their diligence, their, you know, the legals and everything like that. But, again, we just need to be very clear what the product is. Right? Because, you know, for example, like, when you buy a BMW, right, there's a there's a low range to the high range. Right? Obviously, the high range gets you, you know, maybe maybe more safety features, cameras, and all this stuff. And in a low range, you you you it's like, I don't need all this stuff. I just want something cheap to drive. I think there are markets for both types of spectrum. There are people that just want I just want a simple exposure to Bitcoin.
Like, I don't really care about whether whether there's any regulatory ambiguity in this product because I might be investing for this in 6 months, and I'm and I'm out. Yep. That's fine. But for someone to go into this long term, you know, and then realize that this is structured, that they're not, they they were not tall or, you know, didn't realize that that's a problem. I wouldn't have invested. I wouldn't have bought the, the cheaper BMW if I didn't realize it doesn't come with Apple CarPlay. Mhmm. Right. I would have spent the money to buy the high end model. But it's like the marketing material suggests that every BMW in a price range different pricing of the same BMW, that's where the problem comes in. People are gonna get confused.
Yeah. I think I think things things will change. Like, it's hard for, you know, monochrome, you know, the underdog underdog and then me alone really talking about this issue. The people that knows about this problem is really small. It's a handful of people in Australia actually understand this problem. I find that people overseas in the US and UK and Canada notice the problem right away more than the Australians because they do not have this problem. They go that they go that this is kind of insane. Like, how did Australia have all this type of Bitcoin ETF structured differently, marketed the same, and then there is actually a licensing framework for actual bitcoin ETF to emerge, but then you have all this, you know, structures that are bypassing the framework trading together.
It's like it's a little bit it's a little bit of a unfortunate situation.
[00:32:50] Unknown:
Yeah. And look. As you as you put it, it's all of these type of investment setups. Each in their own have their own benefits. As long as it is easily understood by your general consumer who's gonna be wanting to invest in this particular asset class, then you choose to, you know. Again, if you wanna get on the passive exposure of money, then sure. That's fine. If you maybe are more in an ideology, and for most people, it's not until the outcome comes out that the final input for at least for an ETF. Putting money in, maybe you expect to get some money out, insert timeline.
It's at that point that you'll then actually notice what the difference is potentially, whether you wanna extract it with Bitcoin or, oh, okay. Actually, it's an exposure, and now I've got a taxable event. Yeah. People should should be looking into that. The Australian problem. So I wanna I wanna touch on the on the Australian problem. So it is obvious, it seems, if you're from the US, if you're you're the UK or other places, you're like, what's going on? What's what's Australia happening? How would you summarize, I guess? Why why do we have such a struggle from a regulation perspective, from understanding these sort of concepts that seem to be fairly par for the course for most other places. What what are we getting wrong in Australia? Is a did something begin wrong, you know, and the knowledge wasn't spread correctly? Do we have challenging regulators or or regulations in place that don't let us really set up? Because of course, for monochrome, it was a challenge. It was a really big challenge to put together the spot, you know, Bitcoin ETF. So what is it? What are we getting wrong here in Australia in that regard?
[00:34:22] Unknown:
I think I think there's really, there's no there's no really right or wrong in this. There's a lot of legal technicalities in it. And, you know, these are, you know, so called, lack of a better word, loopholes. But again, loopholes will eventually get close. Maybe they don't. Who knows? But, so how do we get to the how do we get here? Right? So in in June of 2021, ASIC, which is a Australian Securities Investment Commission, came up with a proposal to, a consulting consulting stage to to figure out how do we put crypto into exchange trader exchange trader products, ETFs, CTPs. The conclusion of that is, you know, is is summarized in report 705, which was published in the 29th October in 2021, which says that, yes, crypto basically summarized it as that crypto is unique unique risk, etcetera.
And for that and we don't like we don't agree that it's a commodity. You know, it's it's a different thing, so we're gonna create a new asset category add a category called crypto assets, and responsible entities that want to hold Bitcoin directly in the refund that's offered to retail need to apply for a special license to do that. Simple enough. It makes sense. I think it's perfect. I think Australia actually went down a really progressive path to even come up with that framework. And if you look at the framework, it's actually pretty good. Like, you talk about cost customer requirements, talk about benchmarking, talk about the Iosco standard for for using, you know, benchmark providers and all this stuff. And and then, you know, when it comes to the actual application of these licenses, you know, where where peep you know, people with industries is arguing on the technicalities of the the the requirements. It's like, you know, if I don't hold Bitcoin directly in my retail fund, I hold shares in something else, and if something else holds the Bitcoin, then I can argue my my weight argue myself out of the requirement to get licensed. I mean, it's a bit, you know, it's a it's a bit ridiculous, but I think there is no right or wrong answers in this. Like, you know, sometimes the the the course of law will take its own own logic. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, times, you know, people might not agree with how, you know, people argue against the law, but I think it's the right for people to argue against the integrity of the law if, in a country, because that shows that the country has a free and open, you know, sort of, like, system to challenge this. Because if everything is in the law is unchallengeable, then we don't have we don't really have a free country. Mhmm.
But, you know, in this case, we gotta figure out is this worth it? Is this worth to risk it? Is it worth to risk your investors, your reputation, and ultimately the reputation of Australia, like, by doing this. It's like, if Monochrome can do it, Monochrome can go apply for a license to to to, you know, to build the IPTC product, everyone else could. You know, we already underdoxing this underdoxing this case. I think, you know, there's no reason why sort of bigger players can't do it. And, and I think that, really we should be talking about more is that, you know, people need to realize that there is a licensing framework, for crypto, the whole you have to hold crypto, and why is it important? I think a lot of people sort of like, this doesn't concern me. Right? It's like I don't really care, but I I tell people that they should care and a few reasons why. I was gonna say, yeah, what what are those reasons? I think, like, the the licensing framework takes care, obviously, a lot of these re protect vessel protection outcomes. It's like it's like saying that, alright. In order to sell, you know, in order to sell your your your I don't know. Just give an example. Your laptop here in Australia. Right? You need to you need to make sure that your, you know, your specs and everything is safe to the Australian standard, your plugs, everything is, like, maximum, this, minimum, or that. Mhmm. And based on the rule, if the product doesn't meet Australian requirement, then sell it selling it here might be illegal. Right? Because you don't wanna be, you know, shipping a bunch of, like, you know, cheaply made knock off of MacBooks and then it blows up in schools. Mhmm. Right? It's not what you you know, that's that's that's terrible. So standards are put in place so that the manufacturers of these products, you know, follow a strict standard of the procedure to build it. Same thing as a Bitcoin ETF. There's a lot of parts into a Bitcoin ETF. Right? It's the custody. It's the benchmark. It's how you actually, you know, you know, you know, run the operations of the ETF, how you purchase the Bitcoin, how you redeem the Bitcoin. And these are all procedures that have gaps.
Bitcoin, arguably, is a is a much more riskier product to operate because imagine in the in the in the withdrawal process, if you send the Bitcoin to the wrong address, that's it. You Go on for it. You let someone redeem the Bitcoin. It's like, yo, you didn't realize that, you didn't realize that, you know, you need to put a change address in in in stuff like that. If you didn't nominate a change address, then then you you have a problem. And then you don't realize that, oh, you know, how do you partition UTXO? What if you get dusted? Mhmm. Not as technical things like, you know, like nerds like us would know, and we know how to deal with it. And these are standards there are standards in place to make sure that these things are followed, and then the custody provider knows what to follow, there's a standard. Whereas, if you're just, like, building something that replicates a what a regulated product should be in your own in your own thinking, then you might be going that, alright. I don't need to build, the laptop directly to specification.
I just build what I think is good. Right? And and it's like, alright. That's cool. I'm a I'm a trained engineer. I know my electricians. I got a PhD in this. So whatever I put in this stuff is legit as good. Maybe maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong. Right? If there's no regulatory standards for for the product to adhere to, then you're just under the benevolent benevolence of the issuer to go say what's safe and what's not, and what the procedures the right procedures to do a b c should be. So I I don't think these problems will be much short term. It's more of a long term team. And then the other thing is the regulatory risk. Right? It's a it's a very obviously embarrassing loophole that, you know, it's it's it's that we have to we have to we have to wear because we are part of the ETF story in Australia.
And if there is there is new regulations introduced to fix it, you know, there might be unintended unintended consequences for investors that are in the fund. But that that that loophole gets closed. Would have to be could have to be wound up, not in the face of a new fund. And, I think there are also, like, tax treatments of, you know, these types of funds and things like that because of how ATO treats Bitcoin. You know, these are really nuanced stuff that would really show, you know, that, you know, these things are not as simple as it seems. And, obviously, everything everything is open.
Like, I'm pretty sure they disclosed this risk and everything in their product disclosure agreement as we do, but, you know, it's, it's it's one thing to hide, you know, the the dangers of the products and the nuances of the product away, and then talking another thing in public. And I try to tell people that this thing this thing is legit, this thing is a a spot Bitcoin ETF, they can say that because there's no legal definition of what a spot Bitcoin ETF is. Right. You can create a derivative spot Bitcoin ETF. As long as you're meeting these requirements even if it gone through the loophole, there's so many There's no there's no legal requirement of calling a swap because of ETF. Mhmm. It's like it's like there is technically no legal requirement to call a u a ute. You can market a ute as an SUV.
Mhmm. Right? But because the problem is so known, people pick up and it's like, this is ridiculous. Probably in the Bitcoin world So you don't know how to you you don't know that a unit looks like a unit. People don't know what a unit looks like. People don't know what a SUV looks like. People just know what which has heard of what a Bitcoin ETF is and assume that these are all the same products.
[00:42:37] Unknown:
That's a that's a I think that's a problem we gotta fix. Well, this is kind of like the comparison of, one of the late the latest, say, Ferrari SUV and and a Mazda 3, right, for the untrained eye or just someone who just cares about, like, a car. Oh, it's just a car. Right? What's the difference between a car? And it takes someone to know who's differences and under the hood and everything else to go, okay. No. There is a difference. I've got a scary thought that just came up and hopefully you can negate this. But you're talking about the loophole and obviously not monoclonal, but others. What they are doing as a feeder fund is they don't hold the Bitcoin. They instead, you know, channel that money over to somewhere else where it's actually being held a particular Bitcoin.
Is there anything in the regulation stopping though a feeder fund holding Bitcoin plus other things as a collection and that being sort of marketed as the, oh, yeah. We are tracking to the Bitcoin price.
[00:43:27] Unknown:
I think I think if you read the PDF of one of these one of these 2 feeder funds, I wouldn't wanna name any names. You'll find out that one of them do not, you know, has this very it's a very caveat says that they might engage in derivatives.
[00:43:41] Unknown:
That's scary. That that that is scary and I think so I say that that's scary. I want you can you just highlight to people? Because I think if you if you're on the same financial markets and then you've play around or or seen what's happened in the past, right, you know, through through crashes and the like, why is it important or scary or risky that it might potential be oh, and derivatives?
[00:44:03] Unknown:
Because that's not said lightly. Yeah. I I think I think everyone's everyone's risk tolerance is different. Right? Like I said I said some some like I said, some people think that it's fine. Like, it's I only wanna buy Bitcoin and hold it for 6 months, and I don't really care after that because, you know, I have different plans with my money. But then, again, everyone's risk profiles and risk tolerance is different. The the other risk is that people don't realize that where in IBTC, we intentionally structured so that people can retain the right to their Bitcoin, that they can call for the Bitcoin to be delivered to them. Right? And because the IBTC is structured as a bare trust, there is no, you know, there's no change of beneficial ownership during the course of that transaction, from a from a from a tax perspective. And that's actually really significant.
Because, for example, if you buy, say, a a fund a Bitcoin fund that doesn't allow for that function, you know, that ETF could potentially when when when Bitcoin doubles, you know, triples, whatever it is, that ETF can slowly creep up their fees. Right? As long as the creeping up of the fees is less painful than you having to sell and pay taxes on your gains when you don't want to, people are stuck in the fun. And that's that's that's gonna that's gonna be a fun thing to look at and also a fun thing to be involved. I think, these things are what people don't realize is that, like, for example, the IBTC, if you're unhappy, if we have a you know, in future, monochrome decides to increase their fees by, you know, 5 times, you can take the Bitcoin out and go somewhere else.
Right? And whereas, you know, if you're locked in a one way street, then, yes, you might get you might save, you know, tens of dollars or 100 of dollars by choosing a cheaper product, over over a cost of a time. But then is it really worth it? I think if people have the information in front of their heads, in front of their faces, they would understand the difference and then make a more informed choice. But the real problem is that, I think retail investors in Australia don't have the luxury at the moment. Everything all the different Bitcoin ETFs in Australia, all different, but their market look like they're the same. The same.
[00:46:21] Unknown:
The this is exactly what happened not too many years ago with, super superannuation, right, through the ATO. And what went there was, again, take back a couple of years for most people, it was sort of like, oh, well, it's a superannuation account. They're all supers. I'll just hold it wherever. And some of them have a bit more fees or less fees, but they've got the variations, but it's hidden to see. The, thing that went through, which is your future, your super through the ATO. And that legislation change allowed it so that every super was compared. There was actual benchmarking of when they weren't meeting things and it became a little bit more visual. You could see what is that's happening with your money. You can move around in that space.
But that's a very good call out that you made that I hadn't actually thought about is that, yes, there's 3 Bitcoin funds. Maybe we'll have more. Right? But if you wanna get involved in that particular asset class, choose wisely where you go to because you don't have the, I guess, the flexibility with some of these others to move around if you choose to. Because as you say, you're gonna get stuck with a tax taxable event at that point, and maybe other players which are also deciding to to move rates or do things because they are I don't know. They're not holding the Bitcoin directly. So you're limited to your choices. So I think it's, it's a piece of being informed, really, about what the products are that you're buying.
I see this as the smart money that gets it, they're okay. They're gonna get it. You're gonna figure it out. The smart money that doesn't get it, there's gonna be some pain. And then there's the the usuals, like a regular individual who just wants to be exposed to Bitcoin, who doesn't want to go and purchase it on their own or hold their own keys. Maybe low money, dumb money, that can get really hurt really hurt on that. You know, it's a mom and dad who think, oh, you know, I wanna I wanna just buy into this. I've heard about Bitcoin from my from a, child or something. Let's get into it. Go to a particular fund thinking it's one thing by what's being marketed. And all of a sudden, damn, there wasn't in that 2, 3, 4 years later, whether it's regulation or, you know, they want an exit point at that particular, juncture.
The the other one that I wanted to ask you, because I'm I'm interested in this. Right? And I think other people would be. You you you're talking about at at one point, if you want, you can receive Bitcoin from the monochrome fund at any point you choose. How does that actually look like? Do you do you then would expect the individuals on the other side to provide essentially just an an address to be sent? Is that as simple as it actually works? Or is there more steps
[00:48:41] Unknown:
involved in receiving that from the bare trust? Yeah. So that's a because the bare trust, A bare trust means that you retain legal ownership of the asset. Right? So, you have if you have legal ownership of your asset, what the ATO term is called absolute entitlement, you can call for the asset to be delivered to you like a gold bullion being withdrawn from a gold ETF. The process with Bitcoin obviously is a bit different because, you know, there's no physical bullion. There is a process for us to convert the holding into a, what we call a security hold reference security holder reference number holding from a HIN, which is an off market option.
To then then, you know, you need to provide, to our satisfaction satisfaction that you control the address Mhmm. For the Bitcoin to be delivered to it. You know, the specific sort of the procedures are all you know, there's there's a there's a there's a step to do it, but all in all, we just need to make sure that we're sending the coin to the right person. Because that, you know, that That's important. That's important.
[00:49:44] Unknown:
And and the reason I ask because for a long time now, it's been one and a half years where this podcast has been purely, purely funded by getting satoshi's fractional Bitcoin sent to it. That is purely how this podcast market. So it means that we're not susceptible to advertising. We don't have to care the platforms that we operate in. Even if, you know, the major ones go down, there's plenty of others that, you know, are supported in its, lightning network sort of, predominantly focused. Right? And so I see it's a different space, but in the same problem where, again, the understanding of how to manage your Bitcoin or your Satoshis in a fractional way, it's still very early days. And I see that the case right now where in the market, I I think monochrome is doing a fantastic job of informing people because let's say, people who've been around for a while, they get it. You know, you don't they don't need to get it. But it's the large masses and, you know, we talked about. Australia sometimes just doesn't get it. And it's informing people of what it really is, how do you operate with it, and how do you move it about, and really think about not just don't treat it, I guess, not just as a normal other share. It's, you know, it's a different asset class. Understand what it actually means.
What from talking to a lot of people, I know you had a a launch party down down in Sydney. What's the most common question you get asked about the monochrome, spot, Bitcoin ETF? Like, what's what's the the biggest question that just seems to be okay. I get asked this all the time. Well, how would you answer it? Oh, we get asked all the time about how can they access in their super all the time. Yep. What's the answer? Because I I was talking I was thinking about this and talking to my partner about it this morning. So so how does that actually work? I think I think unless you have this SMSF, a self managed super fund,
[00:51:24] Unknown:
you'll you'll find that surely it will take a much longer time for superannuation trustees to be comfortable with Bitcoin related products. So that will take a long time. There's a process to get the products up there and, you know, to write to the right ratings agencies to get it approved. And then the investment manager of the super funds can decide if it's the allocation, is it self directed, is it paternal. But I think that's gonna take time. It makes a lot of sense because, you know, these people that are asking obviously sees Bitcoin as a long term, asset, and they want exposure with it exposure to it. And super is also a long term investment for, you know, to to to most people that are, you know, just starting their careers.
And, the people that are mostly, you know, in their early thirties, you know, going to the peak income years, the the millennials, the Gen Z's, these are the people that are most interested in Bitcoin. So it makes sense for a lot of people to to it's like if I to to think about if I have 30 years more in my super, I might be comfortable having 10% of it in Bitcoin. Mhmm. Right? Or maybe even 5, even 1%, whatever the number is. But, again, if you're if you're if you're not running your own self managed super fund, you are relying on the super fund trustee to make the decision, to make it available.
[00:52:48] Unknown:
And I don't think that will be anytime soon. Yeah. Okay. Which is a shame, actually, because that, Australia for the longest time, and I've heard it more and more now, the property price in Australia have been going up quite a bit. And whoever you talk to in Australia is very well known. You know? Property is like the king asset for us. Since you grow up, it's let's get a property that's what you want. It would be a phenomenal, although I'll they'd probably be very hard to transform that as you're saying for people who are 20 30 into the you know, what if we became more of, like, Bitcoin or, you know, a different asset. But for me, you know, Bitcoin would be the the big thing.
I had a an early chat with your wife, around, you know, the future of things. And I was talking about my my little my little girl who's 13 months old. This generation, this new generation who's gonna be coming through. I can even tell you that we've got a little, wooden board at home that she pulls out, at nighttime. And it's just all the letters of the of the alphabet with little different characters. But the b, right, I didn't even realize. The b is actually shaped like Bitcoin on this particular wind board. I I'm pretty sure we got it from Vinnie, from her mom. And I went, what in the world? Now it isn't Bitcoin, but it's got the b with the actual, two lines at the top, which I was like, wow. It's supposed to be something else. But I keep saying to her, b for Bitcoin. 25 years from now, right, of the generation who's gonna be coming through. What do we have to get Ryan?
Do we have to do anything for Bitcoin to continue to do what it it is if you're looking at it from an ideology perspective
[00:54:17] Unknown:
to continue to do and proceed down the path that it should. Do we have to do anything about it? Yeah. I think I think people people play that real estate card all the time. It's like, oh, you know, real estate is just always gonna go up forever because the government would always make sure it goes up. Alright? No government will make it go down. I think people are missing the whole point here is that Bitcoin is an asset that is free from political interference and free from sovereign risk. And what I mean by that is that almost all the asset class asset classes out there, there's a degree of, you know, a risk a risk for, you know, the asset class to be dramatically devalued, if a policy is introduced.
Right? And, I think in the in the times where geopolitical geopolitical tension is its highest in modern times and all these conflicts around the world, you know, political risk and sovereign risk to traditional assets, makes it really hard for people to plan sort of long term generational wealth building and preservation because, yep, you know, maybe in my time would be fine, but what if my kid's time, what if what if the government turns more towards the left? And what if the, you know, what if this happens? What if all this stuff? But I think that Bitcoin is interesting because it's a distinct asset class to everything else. Like, you might have investment in all kinds of stuff, but do you really have something that don't share, you know, the same, you know, political risk or sovereign risk in your portfolio.
I think that's what people miss, and a lot of, like, people that are older that made money through, you know, this whole sort of, like, policies that are created to, you know, to improve the housing market, you know, performance and everything to make people, you know, make people happy and, you know, voters happy. Mhmm. At the end of the day, right, these are rules that are written by by people. And rules can be an you know, can be unwritten. Rules can be disrupted. People can become corrupt. Regimes can fall, whereas Bitcoin can't. So I I I keep telling people that, you know, people argue that, oh, Bitcoin is virtual. I can't touch it by my property. I can.
But at the end of the day, right, your right to live in that property and call it yours and your ability to then sell it onto somebody else is underwritten by human law. Right? Human laws are also virtual as virtual as Bitcoin. Whereas human laws can change. It has changed. Now who owns the properties, next to the pyramid of Giza? Nobody nobody knows. It's gone. Right? Who who now who now owns the houses that are being bombed in, in Gaza? Nobody knows. These are all virtual rights. I mean, these are terrible situation examples. But what I'm trying to point out is that, property rights, right to assets, these are all human laws, and laws can change. Laws can be corrupted, altered, augmented, not in your lifetime, but over time it will. Mhmm. You don't observe ancient Egyptian law anymore.
Like, all these laws that people live and die for in line in the face of duty and honor, like, it doesn't matter anymore, you know, in just generations. Bitcoin, although it's virtual, but the laws of Bitcoin is entirely unmovable. So, both are virtual concepts. Human laws are virtual. Bitcoin is virtual. Laws can change, Bitcoin can't. Simple as that. I think that people should look at Bitcoin a bit differently. That's why I say, you know, don't just look Bitcoin at Bitcoin like the blind man and the elephant story, but actually step out of that. I know a lot of people come with cognitive biases against Bitcoin. It's like, you know, deep down they just they just objected to that something that how can I be so wrong about this stuff for 10 years?
But then, you know, it's fine because it's something new. No one no no one in the world has an experience with something like Bitcoin in the last you know, in the generation before, this is entirely something new. 15 years. And I think and I think people should give themselves a bit more, a bit more forgiveness. Like, maybe I got this strong. I should look at it a different way. And that's what monochrome do. Right? We help people to understand the nuances of Bitcoin, what it is. That's why the whole slew of Monoclonal research is there. We've been doing we've been producing Bitcoin research for 3 years, and it was we'll be we'll keep doing that. I mean, education is something that we're really passionate about. I think people should really understand it. That's why I've been I'm a big advocate for people should understand Bitcoin.
People should understand what the Bitcoin ETFs products are. It's if you if you look at the whole thing that I'm I've been really passionate about, it's about education, clarity. We're not here to just do it because it's suddenly cool. Mhmm. We've been doing this for a way longer time than people realize. Yep. Yeah. I know. It's it's knowing knowing why is a very important thing before you jump in,
[00:59:13] Unknown:
for what you're trying to get to. Final question for you is a little bit different. I don't think I've asked you this, but I've I've always been interested in. What is your take on the word inflation?
[00:59:24] Unknown:
What's your take on inflation? Yeah. So I think I think there is, there's 2 school of thoughts when it comes to inflation. That's why of Bitcoiners and and economists sort of clash. Mhmm. Because, the Bitcoin the Bitcoin view in in sort of like the the, the the way that they view inflation is that the expansion of monetary base. Right? Like, the government print more money. The US printed 40% of the US dollar in the last x month or whatever. And then the sort of Keynesian view is that inflation is the is the, you know, the rising cost of, you know, goods, the met a few metrics of different kinds of goods, and then that's inflation.
So, Bitcoiners sees that, well, if the government is printing 15% more currency or 20% more currency a year, that is that is, like, you know, the currency being diluted by if the currency is being diluted by 20%, how can inflation be 3%? How can inflation even be 5%. It should be more. But then again, it's a it's a clash of ideologies. I think I think, you know, we just gotta we just gotta look in reality, like, how much more are we paying for groceries, rent, and all this stuff. And, you know, some of them are not cost per money printing, but most of them are. So, yeah, I mean, like, inflation is something that really,
[01:00:44] Unknown:
caused a lot of, contention amongst, Bitcoiners and mainstream economists. Yeah. And I think it does. And the reason that I mentioned it is because beyond anything else, I think, when people, get excited about it having the exposure of Bitcoin and being able to, I guess, purchase the purchase the asset without having to go through an exchange or holding it themselves. There is, as I said, the learning part of the long term. And, if you do believe that if you go down that path of thinking of, well, you know, our currency is being debased or devalued. And what does that mean in terms of your spending power? There's, you know, very few asset classes out there that will potentially stand the test of time. And look, for me personally, it's one of those things that I'm starting to talk about of, okay, we we have a daughter now. What does that look like from a generational perspective? And when you start looking through history, you know, what does it look like for currencies, in terms of the ups and downs? And you go back and you go, they'll work in cycles. Right? There's, you know, beforehand you had the US, but pre world war 1, world war 2, you know, the British pound was actually the biggest thing. Things up and up up and and go around. Right? And it's it is just so keen to be aware whether it is about, you know, we've got 3 ETFs here in Australia and what does that actually look like, in terms of being informed for what it does, all the way to why you buy why are you wanting to go down the path of the Bitcoin asset? That's a very important thing. Yeah.
Jeff, we're gonna wrap it up there. Really appreciate it for jumping on on board with the 3rd conversation. Any last words for the mere models at home? Yeah. I think I think, like, you know, reflecting on this episode,
[01:02:09] Unknown:
it's about really why we're here. Right? Why we're building a Bitcoin ETF? Why we why we're advocating for clearer definition of Bitcoin ETFs? It's because, like I said, you know, the Bitcoin is a phenomenon for the next generation. If you realize a lot of old school investors, what are their kids interested in Bitcoin? You know, what are what are their kids talking about in school? Bitcoin. I think it is the generational shift in in the interest and things like that that's gonna cause a lot of inflows into the asset class. Mhmm. And we just need to be ready to accept people into the asset class in a safe regulated manner.
Like, if we continue, to to to play sort of the cowboy in the wild west kind of thing, then you're gonna turn away a lot of investors that are seriously considering allocation into Bitcoin. So, you know, my you know, my previous life, I was running crypto exchanges. Mhmm. I've been doing this for a long time, and now I'm running Australia's only real true Bitcoin ETF that holds Bitcoin, which is it's sometimes ridiculous. You gotta explain it that way. But the end of the day, right, it's like, have I actually walked out from the Wild West? Sometimes looking at what's happened in the last couple of weeks, like, you know, sometimes I feel like I just walked from one Wild West and another smaller guns to the Wild West with the bigger guns. Yeah. But I hope that's not gonna be that forever. I hope things will change.
We continue to fight for investors, you know, the right to access information clearly, not get confused, and, ultimately help people realize that, you know, more information and more clear information helps them make better choice, helps them make better investment choices for themselves, for their kids, whatever. I think, that's what we'd be advocating for. You know? Mhmm.
[01:03:58] Unknown:
Yeah. One more to say. That's all there is. Thank you very much, Jeff. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Juan.
Introduction
Bitcoin and Motorsport Analogy
The Journey to Creating Australias First Spot Bitcoin ETF
Ideology and Bitcoin
Early Bitcoin Evangelists
Regulatory Challenges with ASX and Cboe
Personal Experiences and Social Media Issues
Licensing and Regulatory Frameworks
Addressing the Australian Markets Unique Issues
Investor Risk and Protections
Receiving Bitcoin from Monochrome ETF
Bitcoin and Superannuation
Bitcoin as a Future Asset for Generational Wealth
Final Thoughts and Takeaways Connect with Mere Mortals Website
