Mere Mortals

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Chris Fisher is the creator of the Jupiter Broadcasting network and host of many podcasts such as LINUX Unplugged, Coder Radio, Self-Hosted & Bitcoin Dad.

In Conversation #90, Chris and I discuss: what it's been like to have 25+ podcasts, the current nosedive in advertising, how value for value is creating a richer experience for podcasters, his mindset in analysing technological ideas, the coming pain from the messed up financial system, why Bitcoin/AI won't be as impactful as the internet and travelling across the US in an RV.

Hope you're having a fantastic day wherever you are in the world, Kyrin out!

Timeline:
(0:00) - Intro To Chris
(1:08) - Silent retreats and not talking
(4:15) - Dealing with Linux FUD
(11:14) - Transitioning from advertising to V4V
(15:26) - Sponsors are squeezing for more
(20:46) - Boosts are forming a root-like network/structure
(26:05) - When to end a show?
(33:32) - The sweet temptation of just ONE show
(37:20) - Audience capture from riches in the niches
(43:18) - Fountain drives numbers
(48:26) - Why Chris doesn't do video anymore
(57:14) - Evergreen vs topical content
(1:01:21) - Letting your ideas die instead of you
(1:10:20) - Bitcoin's energy use is a good thing!
(1:17:09) - Modern economics makes no sense
(1:24:23) - Baffling unnecessary complexity caused by groups of humans
(1:32:03) - Comparisons to the internet
(1:39:28) - The reluctant geek
(1:42:39) - How Chris uses AI
(1:48:08) - The AI safety problem is overblown
(1:53:18) - #vanlife & travelling
(1:59:42) - Experiencing a solar eclipse
(2:07:05) - Check out the Jupiter Broadcasting website


Connect With Chris:
Website: https://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/
Personal Website: https://chrislas.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChrisLAS

Connect with Mere Mortals:
Website: https://www.meremortalspodcast.com/
Discord: https://discord.gg/jjfq9eGReU
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meremortalspodcast/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@meremortalspodcast

Support the show

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Welcome Mere Mortalites
another round

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of the conversations.
A couple of days ago,

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I had a chat with my friend
Chris Fisher from the Jupiter

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Broadcasting Network. This is a
podcasting network

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with very popular
shows like Coder Radio,

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Linux Unplugged, Self-Hosted,
Bitcoin Dad. The list goes on

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and on. And that's
where we start off

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with his creation of it.
His learnings

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from nearly 20 years
in the podcasting world

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of his decision of moving
from predominantly video

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to audio of how
and when to start up

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or cancel shows. Before we get on
to his identifying of trends,

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how he knew that
Linux and Bitcoin

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was such powerful ideas before
that were even

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a thing on the radar.
And then finally. His decisions

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of moving from a predominantly
advertising model as well

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to going to more V
for V value for value,

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or this transition
between trends. He's also seeing

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in the podcasting and AI world
and things like this

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whole bunch of stuff
to get into there. I would just

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recommend that every boost
that you send in, 30% of

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that goes to Chris every stream
that you send in as well

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goes directly to him.
So do not. Be. Stingy with those.

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And I really do hope you enjoy
this conversation with Chris.

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I was going to actually ask you,
have you ever thought of doing

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something like a silent retreat?
I feel that would be

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one of the hardest things for you
because there is

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so much stuff of you talking on
the Internet.

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I what's the longest
you think you've gone

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without without
speaking something?

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It would be mornings. You know,
there was a period of time

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where I was waking up early
and so I would get up early

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and I wouldn't talk until
I sat down on the microphone

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and my voice would be like this.
And I realised,

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Oh, it's been about 4 hours.
So probably four or 5 hours

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is probably the longest.
That sounds really appealing

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right now. You catch me
in a period of life

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where that sounds like
the thing to do,

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although I get that, you know,
about five days

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after about five days
of not podcasting,

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I'm ready to go. Yeah. Yeah.
I can totally imagine. Yeah,

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I did a silent retreat
a couple of years ago. It was one

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I just organised for myself.
And what I came out

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with, it was one
that was way too easy.

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I probably shouldn't
be doing this because. The the.

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Ease at which I had of just
not communicating

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with humans for six
days was incredible.

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And I wasn't. I kind of
just shut myself in a room,

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so I wasn't even like
maintaining eye contact

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or being around
other people is just like not

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straight up on my own.
And then also it was like,

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Man, this is I didn't need
to do this like this

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was excessive. It felt like I was
just kind of punishing myself,

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like just to see
if I could do it. So. Yeah.

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Maybe, like a,
an easier version of of shutting

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yourself off
in a room or something

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would be the guy.
You know, for me, what would I

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try to challenge myself
to do on occasion is I have

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a favourite spot out in the woods
that I like to go camping.

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And even though I have great cell
signal there,

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like a hundred megabit
cell signal, it's like crazy.

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I try not to do any online stuff
because I can just burn hours

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online and I can get, you know,
thinking about stuff that I don't

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really need to be thinking
about that weekend. And I'm

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I already have a hard time
keeping focus, so I don't

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need to be in just,
you know that. But

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it's rare and rare.
I thought I would do it

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every weekend for the winter,
and I think I did it like twice.

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So it's it's a challenging thing
to actually do, especially when

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you're connected
to friends and family.

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On these devices
all the time and stuff

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just coming in all the time.
So the idea of

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doing a silent retreat,
that sounds really like

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if I just told everybody, Hey,
I'm going to go do this thing,

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I'm not going to be around
for a while. Don't expect

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to hear back from me.
That sounds amazing. Yeah, Yeah.

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I think I think
we're in a similar boat

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at the moment. I've also been
kind of evaluating

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some of my just.
Just input choices, I guess.

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You know, what am I spending
my time on? The things that

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I'm listening to. These are
the things that are going

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to be helpful for me. And yeah,
I've just kind of been

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feeling the same,
just like a little. Just,

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just anxiety levels,
stress levels

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rising a little bit, which is
why I saw you boosted

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that mindfulness episode. So
it was is helpful to

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get into that. Let's maybe just.
Start off with of broadcasting

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and you're talking
about how you're kind

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of all over the shop
and you got something.

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Was it 28 shows? Is that correct,
that you've you've had over

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the lifetime of Jupiter
Broadcasting?

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Because there's also the one
outside of that,

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because that was the I can't
remember what it was.

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It was like Chris, Chris off
air or something.

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I think that was the RV one.
I think that was

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more like a politics
type one as well,

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unfiltered as well. Kind of
was on and then off and what not.

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So is is do you keep
a count of the full number?

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No, it's funny, I've never
thought about it until we did

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office hours
a couple of weeks ago on it.

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And you're probably right.
You're probably right.

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It's probably almost 30.
We've tried so many random

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things early on
and so many things

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looking back at it that I kind of
wish a version of me

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could have stuck with
on a couple of them, but then

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a lot of them like it should have
ended, etc.. So yeah, we've

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we tried a lot of things.
I mean, really we've been kind of

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at this for eight years. I think
Jupiter Broadcasting

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as an organisation is probably
about 1617 of that.

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It started really just as couple
of friends and myself

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just goofing around and because
we could do it

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with the technology,
we wanted to do it and

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just kind of took it from there
and I at that around that time

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when podcasting was just
getting started,

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I had kind of moved into a phase
of my career where I was now

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becoming like
a Linux professional.

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I'd kind of gone
from toying around

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with it for a few years
to deploying it in production

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and solving problems.
And I was so excited

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and I was coming from, you know,
Microsoft's backyard

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where they actually had
like their hand on my school,

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like they really had
a big influence in my area.

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And so I'm in
Microsoft's backyard and I'm

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trying to start this career
talking about how great this

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Linux solution is. And I'm just
getting criticised and ridiculed

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and people are telling me I'm a
you know, this thing's

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a joke, it's
going to be a lawsuit

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for anybody.
You install it for it,

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the whole thing's a scam,
like all this kind of pushback.

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And so I just had
all this pent up

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desire to talk about
how awesome Linux was

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and how it was solving
these problems. And the podcast

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just made a lot of sense. And so
I started doing

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a Linux podcast. Yeah.
And so I'm a little bit

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younger than you, so I don't
miss the whole kind

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of Linux phase. Of the first time
I really heard about it was

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it was turning into a
couple of your shows.

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So I'm definitely
one of those ones who, you know,

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I use I've used it
without ever realising

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I've used it a
lot of people. Was.

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So that was kind of
real early, right? There was,

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you know, people thought you were
crazy to even. You know.

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Talk about I'm not.
Really. Awesome.

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Yeah yeah it gotcha. In fact,
it wasn't just

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it was irresponsible,
it was dangerous. It was putting

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my clients at risk. It was
putting companies at risk.

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And I would have companies
that would come in and outbid me,

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you know, in their
business suits. And they would

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talk about, well, this kid's
put in your

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whole business at risk with this
recommendation.

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You can't go with this.
And it was so frustrating,

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which of course
all of that was FUD

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that was primarily
started by a company called SKO

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who, you know, was an
old UNIX company

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who lost a lot of money
to Linux deployments.

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And so their strategy was
we'll fight with legal

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strategy with a legal like it
might have been patent.

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I can't even copyright something,
you know, but some sort of

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legal strategy.
That was kind of B.S. but

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it was their strategy
and it did create, you know,

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a certain amount of
fear and uncertainty and distrust

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in that CTO layer of a business.
Those people who are managing

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the technology
and managing the risk.

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And so those people are often
calling me, you know,

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risky, reckless.
And it was so silly.

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So it feels a lot like the shade
that Bitcoin gets

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today is a lot of what
the early free software

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shade was from those types.
Interesting. Interesting.

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Where and what what was
your strategy with kind of

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dealing with that? Would you
try and fight it? Because there's

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there's like attempt
to, to call out

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like the mistruth,
especially when you're

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when you're in it,
you've put in the. You know, a.

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Thousand, 10000 hours of
or whatever of of work

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to get through it all.
Or is it kind of like

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one of those inevitable
things and you're just like, oh,

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you know, like they can say that,
but I'll, I'll

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just keep going on. Yeah.
I mean, it kind of

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depended on the client.
Sometimes it would

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be a write off, sometimes they'd
come back with a counterproposal.

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Yeah, I'm a I was a pretty
good sales engineer back then,

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so I could I could sell
pretty well and talk to it

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technically and talk about
the overall long term

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maintenance cost
was going to be lower.

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The amount of systems
we would need would be lower in

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the downtime would be less.
And so a lot of a lot of places,

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you know, that's the number
one thing. And so if you can

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speak to those, they would
they would listen sometimes.

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Sometimes I'd I'd lose.
I lose a client. Sometimes

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the other thing would happen
is would wrap up and the next

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guy would come in and he'd be
a Windows guy and he'd

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he would just crap all over
everything that I had done, blame

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all the products. He didn't know
Linux, right? So he'd

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blame everything on me and then,
you know, replace it

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with Windows Systems.
And I kid you not multiple times.

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That guy inevitably would
burn out or get fired and they'd

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bring me back in to fix
it all up again. Yeah. Check.

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Yeah. You've got
an ability to deal with

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stuff like that, which I do not.
If I had to come

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and resolve a problem, which was,
you know, once fixed, I would

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just be like, Nah, you guys are
on your own. I think I would.

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I would give it up.
And it's pretty common in that it

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consulting space
where you're coming in and your

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your backwards engineering what
somebody else did, you're fixing,

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you know, years of technical debt
that they just couldn't

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deal with. But now it's become
such a problem that it's

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preventing production
like that is such a it's such

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a common thing for that I.T.
consulting thing.

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It's so frustrating that I,
I think ultimately that's why

210
00:10:14,404 --> 00:10:16,282
it wasn't really for me.
You know, I had to kind

211
00:10:16,282 --> 00:10:19,619
of transition out of that
and into podcasting. MM Yeah.

212
00:10:19,619 --> 00:10:23,706
And when you went into podcasting
for the first time. It was.

213
00:10:23,706 --> 00:10:25,457
So I was going through
a lot of your back catalogue

214
00:10:25,457 --> 00:10:29,294
and kind of listening to
how JB was created and. Whatnot.

215
00:10:29,294 --> 00:10:32,505
And the one thing.
That stood out was you

216
00:10:32,505 --> 00:10:35,426
you're talking about. How you'd.
Had a lot of this

217
00:10:35,426 --> 00:10:36,969
like sales experience.
You knew how to,

218
00:10:38,053 --> 00:10:40,014
I suppose, like be in
contact with people,

219
00:10:40,014 --> 00:10:42,224
keep up relationships
and whatnot. And this is actually

220
00:10:42,224 --> 00:10:44,559
what helped you
with the advertisers

221
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,563
when you first started?
JB And it's kind of

222
00:10:48,730 --> 00:10:51,817
I'm watching now and I'm
I'm wondering like

223
00:10:51,817 --> 00:10:54,361
I think you always had kind of
like a sponsorship

224
00:10:54,361 --> 00:10:56,864
and not a sponsorship,
like a listener support

225
00:10:56,864 --> 00:11:00,868
mechanism as well. You were doing
a lot of that,

226
00:11:00,868 --> 00:11:04,663
but it seems right now
at the very least, with

227
00:11:04,663 --> 00:11:07,249
all the stuff that's going on
with just like, you know,

228
00:11:07,249 --> 00:11:10,378
economic downturn
coming, recession, stuff

229
00:11:10,378 --> 00:11:12,587
like that, advertisers
starting to pull out money

230
00:11:12,587 --> 00:11:17,092
and whatnot is is for you and JB
the long term

231
00:11:17,092 --> 00:11:19,511
kind of more of a value
for value, will it be,

232
00:11:19,511 --> 00:11:22,389
do you think.
More important perhaps.

233
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:24,767
In the future? It sounds like
there will always be a spot

234
00:11:24,767 --> 00:11:27,269
for advertising in
your shows and network.

235
00:11:28,895 --> 00:11:32,566
Yeah, it depends. You know,
to address the last part,

236
00:11:32,566 --> 00:11:37,196
they're a spot for advertising.
There are certain

237
00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:40,950
things we want to do that are
kind of ambitious. Like I would

238
00:11:40,950 --> 00:11:44,452
love to take a road trip
and do a dozen

239
00:11:44,452 --> 00:11:46,663
meet ups on that road
trip, right? That's one of my

240
00:11:46,663 --> 00:11:50,167
favourite things
to do that right now.

241
00:11:51,168 --> 00:11:54,296
That's $15,000,
that's a $15,000 trip.

242
00:11:54,296 --> 00:11:56,090
It really actually
cost that much. And JB

243
00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:58,591
usually just pays it
or we get a sponsor.

244
00:11:58,591 --> 00:12:01,721
Because when you think
about the gas and the time

245
00:12:01,721 --> 00:12:04,347
and the all of the
mechanical stuff and just

246
00:12:04,347 --> 00:12:07,183
it is unbelievable
how much it costs to do that.

247
00:12:07,183 --> 00:12:10,730
Many meet ups on a road trip.
I mean, maybe 50.

248
00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:12,605
Yeah, No, with gas. Yeah.
I mean, it could probably be

249
00:12:12,605 --> 00:12:15,567
done for eight,
but that's, you know,

250
00:12:15,567 --> 00:12:19,947
we did one to Denver
and that was about a $10,000 road

251
00:12:19,947 --> 00:12:21,157
trip was about
how much it cost us

252
00:12:21,157 --> 00:12:24,368
to do that road trip.
So to do something

253
00:12:24,368 --> 00:12:28,038
like that in the valley
for value model, the

254
00:12:28,038 --> 00:12:31,417
it would either be very rare,
which maybe be fine actually,

255
00:12:31,417 --> 00:12:35,421
or the value for value model
would have to be so successful

256
00:12:35,421 --> 00:12:36,964
that we're kind
of looking for things

257
00:12:36,964 --> 00:12:38,798
to do with the money. Yeah,
which would be

258
00:12:38,798 --> 00:12:42,177
an amazing place to be. But I,
I don't know if

259
00:12:42,177 --> 00:12:44,263
you know, we don't have
we don't have a million people

260
00:12:44,263 --> 00:12:46,264
downloading an episode,
so I don't know if we're going to

261
00:12:46,264 --> 00:12:50,101
be able to get to that scale.
So I could see a spot where

262
00:12:50,101 --> 00:12:53,563
the production costs
maybe, you know, maybe the pay

263
00:12:53,563 --> 00:12:55,231
even for the host,
because we don't get we don't get

264
00:12:55,231 --> 00:12:59,861
paid a lot, but we try to pay
people involved. Maybe that

265
00:12:59,861 --> 00:13:01,404
can be covered
with value for value

266
00:13:01,404 --> 00:13:05,075
and then something like
a 10,000 road trip or a flight

267
00:13:05,075 --> 00:13:07,787
to Munich or something like that,
Maybe that could be covered

268
00:13:07,787 --> 00:13:11,081
by sponsors and some sort
of hybrid model. I don't know.

269
00:13:11,081 --> 00:13:13,708
I'm I'm still trying
to figure it out. I was kind of

270
00:13:13,708 --> 00:13:19,673
using this advertising downturn
as an opportunity to to

271
00:13:19,673 --> 00:13:24,427
sort of trust fall
into the audience and kind of see

272
00:13:24,427 --> 00:13:28,974
how far we can push it. Because
when we had a boom

273
00:13:28,974 --> 00:13:33,312
with advertising and the economy,
I you know, what you do in

274
00:13:33,312 --> 00:13:35,898
what you do, a golden
rule of media is

275
00:13:35,898 --> 00:13:37,357
when the sun shines,
you make, hey,

276
00:13:37,357 --> 00:13:39,192
that's what you do.
Even if that means

277
00:13:39,192 --> 00:13:40,985
you got to work your butt off
at a period of time, which is

278
00:13:40,985 --> 00:13:42,654
not a great time
to work your butt off.

279
00:13:42,654 --> 00:13:46,325
But the sun is shining right now,
and I've worked really hard

280
00:13:46,325 --> 00:13:48,576
for the last few years
since going independent,

281
00:13:48,576 --> 00:13:50,453
so I'm kind of okay
with slowing down

282
00:13:50,453 --> 00:13:54,375
for a little bit,
healing a little bit, re-evaluate

283
00:13:54,375 --> 00:13:56,918
a little bit, seeing how
much we can transition

284
00:13:56,918 --> 00:13:59,212
to value for value
because we have to we have to

285
00:13:59,212 --> 00:14:02,799
walk a journey with our audience
who is not only are

286
00:14:02,799 --> 00:14:06,095
they used to the shows
being advertising based,

287
00:14:08,471 --> 00:14:15,520
but a lot of them like the ads.
So like they're not even like

288
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,605
they don't even have a problem
with the ads being there

289
00:14:17,605 --> 00:14:19,732
because we've done
we've like we've done

290
00:14:19,732 --> 00:14:21,402
a ton of work to pick
the right advertisers.

291
00:14:21,402 --> 00:14:23,528
And I, I get this.
I seriously know

292
00:14:23,528 --> 00:14:25,572
this sounds ridiculous,
but I seriously get this email

293
00:14:25,572 --> 00:14:27,198
all the time
when I talk about value

294
00:14:27,198 --> 00:14:28,408
for value, people say,
I don't mind the ads.

295
00:14:28,408 --> 00:14:31,245
I think your ads are great.
I listen to your ads, I pay

296
00:14:31,245 --> 00:14:32,705
for the membership
to get the ad free feed

297
00:14:32,705 --> 00:14:35,499
and I still listen to your ad.
Not everybody likes

298
00:14:35,499 --> 00:14:37,125
the ads, obviously.
Don't get me wrong.

299
00:14:37,125 --> 00:14:39,794
But the issue is, is we've worked
really, really hard to pick

300
00:14:39,794 --> 00:14:41,797
good sponsors. So the problem is
they don't like they don't

301
00:14:41,797 --> 00:14:44,716
mind the ads. And I've been
reading ads for 15 years,

302
00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:47,260
so I know how to do it.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, like,

303
00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:49,763
they're not really necessarily
they don't really have a problem.

304
00:14:49,763 --> 00:14:52,725
And I'm not even kidding
you actually is a data point.

305
00:14:52,725 --> 00:14:54,684
Years ago, we sold the
Linux Academy before

306
00:14:54,684 --> 00:14:56,352
before we went independent again
during the time

307
00:14:56,352 --> 00:14:57,687
where we were owned
by Linux Academy,

308
00:14:57,687 --> 00:14:59,940
the first thing we did
was drop all ads,

309
00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:02,985
so none of our shows had any ads.
I didn't get a single email

310
00:15:02,985 --> 00:15:04,611
saying that
that was a great thing.

311
00:15:04,611 --> 00:15:07,865
Yeah, nobody emailed in
and when we brought the ads back,

312
00:15:07,865 --> 00:15:11,451
nobody emailed in complaining.
Yeah. That's that's

313
00:15:11,451 --> 00:15:14,203
the life of a podcast.
There's nothing else

314
00:15:14,203 --> 00:15:17,166
I do on the podcast. We're like,
No, but like everybody has

315
00:15:17,166 --> 00:15:19,793
an opinion usually about some
sort of change, but this.

316
00:15:19,793 --> 00:15:23,297
So like there's that problem too,
and I have to recognise that.

317
00:15:23,297 --> 00:15:24,965
So maybe there's a
role there somewhere.

318
00:15:26,508 --> 00:15:30,428
I personally am getting
really burned out on advertising

319
00:15:30,428 --> 00:15:33,432
because the more ads you have
and the more shows you do,

320
00:15:33,432 --> 00:15:37,311
the more of your time it takes.
So but then it's not just that

321
00:15:37,311 --> 00:15:40,688
it's contracts with hosts
to make sure the payment stuff's

322
00:15:40,688 --> 00:15:44,275
going right. It's relationship
management. It's the fact that

323
00:15:44,275 --> 00:15:46,570
a lot of sponsors
want more right now.

324
00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:48,864
And so they're having meetings
with you. They get they want

325
00:15:48,864 --> 00:15:50,532
more information
because they really

326
00:15:50,532 --> 00:15:52,326
want to squeeze that value.
And, you know,

327
00:15:52,326 --> 00:15:53,869
they're just asking
it's not a big deal,

328
00:15:53,869 --> 00:15:56,205
but they're just asking
if maybe they could have somebody

329
00:15:56,205 --> 00:15:58,791
on your show that, you know,
maybe a topic expert that could

330
00:15:58,791 --> 00:16:02,919
come on your show and help you,
and that even the best

331
00:16:02,919 --> 00:16:05,505
sponsors in the world are asking
for that stuff right now

332
00:16:05,505 --> 00:16:07,091
just because
they're trying to just squeeze

333
00:16:07,091 --> 00:16:09,677
more out of the deal.
So I see the direction

334
00:16:09,677 --> 00:16:13,389
it's going, combined with dynamic
ad insertions, combined with

335
00:16:13,389 --> 00:16:15,765
generative ads, which you might
have heard about from

336
00:16:15,765 --> 00:16:19,477
from Paid News and the Bill
Simmons podcast, where air

337
00:16:19,477 --> 00:16:22,438
is just going to sound like Bill
and it's just going to

338
00:16:22,438 --> 00:16:24,607
they're going to
dynamically insert generated ads,

339
00:16:24,607 --> 00:16:27,610
which is going to cause
a absolute race to the bottom

340
00:16:27,610 --> 00:16:30,279
in pricing because you're
completely taking away

341
00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:33,033
all of the value of a host.
Reid Host Reid

342
00:16:33,033 --> 00:16:35,451
is when the podcaster
does the read

343
00:16:35,451 --> 00:16:38,038
and they have to learn
the vernacular of that company,

344
00:16:38,038 --> 00:16:40,832
they have to learn the nuances
of the product to promote

345
00:16:40,832 --> 00:16:44,128
it correctly. Ideally,
the podcaster uses the product

346
00:16:44,128 --> 00:16:46,964
and that podcaster is using
their reputation

347
00:16:46,964 --> 00:16:50,049
to endorse the product.
When I generates the ad,

348
00:16:50,049 --> 00:16:51,884
you take all that away.
Well, that's

349
00:16:51,884 --> 00:16:53,886
the value of the host
where you just took all the value

350
00:16:53,886 --> 00:16:55,346
of the host.
So it's going to create

351
00:16:55,346 --> 00:16:57,599
an absolute race to the bottom
in advertising pricing.

352
00:16:57,599 --> 00:16:59,934
On podcasting, they want it to be
like YouTube.

353
00:16:59,934 --> 00:17:01,812
They want to be able to
buy ads at scale,

354
00:17:01,812 --> 00:17:04,272
and I don't want that.
I don't want that

355
00:17:04,272 --> 00:17:06,525
hassle for my shows.
It takes my focus away

356
00:17:06,525 --> 00:17:10,194
from the content and it's going
to, over time, lower

357
00:17:10,194 --> 00:17:12,698
the quality of the ads.
It's going to require an increase

358
00:17:12,698 --> 00:17:15,451
in the amount of ads because
the overall payouts

359
00:17:15,451 --> 00:17:17,201
are going to go down
and it's going to become more

360
00:17:17,201 --> 00:17:20,288
like radio for the podcast
to stick with commercials

361
00:17:20,288 --> 00:17:22,833
or advertising. They're going to
just have commercials.

362
00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:24,292
They're going to have
generated commercials.

363
00:17:25,335 --> 00:17:28,380
Yeah, not really looking forward
to that future. Yeah. Yeah.

364
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:34,303
I'm so much of this is kind of me
wondering, is is this.

365
00:17:34,303 --> 00:17:36,971
You know, like.
Intuition or instincts

366
00:17:36,971 --> 00:17:41,351
or is it just kind of inbuilt
personal preferences which are

367
00:17:41,351 --> 00:17:44,605
rearing the head and we'll get on
to like a little bit of how

368
00:17:44,605 --> 00:17:46,690
you're really good at kind
of focusing on the future

369
00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:51,153
and identifying trends
and whatnot and soon. But

370
00:17:51,153 --> 00:17:55,324
I've always just had this real
dislike of ads. I can remember

371
00:17:55,324 --> 00:17:58,701
like eight ads
maybe over my lifetime.

372
00:17:58,701 --> 00:18:01,997
And there was just one.
That I think. There was this one

373
00:18:01,997 --> 00:18:05,209
really formative
experience as a kid. Which I'll.

374
00:18:05,209 --> 00:18:07,461
Repeat quickly, And it's
one of those ones

375
00:18:07,461 --> 00:18:09,880
where I actually look back
now and I'm like, Oh, jeez,

376
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,633
did this even happen?
Or is this just me making up

377
00:18:12,633 --> 00:18:16,886
shit as a kid? Because I've had
some memories questioned recently

378
00:18:16,886 --> 00:18:19,347
of being like, Oh, no, wait,
I wasn't changing

379
00:18:19,347 --> 00:18:22,142
my brother's nappies
when I thought I was

380
00:18:22,142 --> 00:18:24,603
like helping out the babysitter
and stuff. I was I was way too

381
00:18:24,603 --> 00:18:28,106
young to do that.
But there I was.

382
00:18:28,106 --> 00:18:30,192
I was like, you know,
eight years old,

383
00:18:30,192 --> 00:18:32,361
something like that.
So there's advertising on TV,

384
00:18:32,361 --> 00:18:35,780
and it was this toy which was
essentially like, you know, the

385
00:18:35,780 --> 00:18:38,784
game doctor where you have
tweezers and. You put it in.

386
00:18:38,784 --> 00:18:41,411
Yeah, yeah. It was
it was a version of that.

387
00:18:41,411 --> 00:18:43,997
And that was kind of like
a rotating spaceship thing.

388
00:18:43,997 --> 00:18:46,208
And so you'd have multiple people
on each side

389
00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:48,626
trying to pick it out
as it's moving. So it's like a

390
00:18:48,626 --> 00:18:52,548
moving version of Doctor.
And remember,

391
00:18:52,548 --> 00:18:54,258
it was like 50 bucks.
I saved up pocket

392
00:18:54,258 --> 00:18:57,344
money, bought it,
and all the kids on

393
00:18:57,344 --> 00:19:00,681
this ad were like, having fun.
You know, Everyone was

394
00:19:00,681 --> 00:19:02,682
the life of the party
sort of deal.

395
00:19:02,682 --> 00:19:06,228
And I got this thing and it was
just so boring. I remember

396
00:19:06,228 --> 00:19:09,105
it being so disappointing
and it taught me

397
00:19:09,105 --> 00:19:11,191
one thing about money,
like the value of money.

398
00:19:11,191 --> 00:19:13,609
And from then on
I was like, Well,

399
00:19:13,609 --> 00:19:16,404
you know, money. One money
doesn't buy me happiness.

400
00:19:16,404 --> 00:19:18,699
But I think too,
it was kind of like, you know,

401
00:19:18,699 --> 00:19:21,701
fuck advertising like this.
Didn't give me what I wanted,

402
00:19:21,701 --> 00:19:26,289
you know? Yeah. And they weren't
honest. I mean, look, maybe.

403
00:19:26,289 --> 00:19:31,170
It happened somewhat. Who knows?
But it. It, it. Obviously it was

404
00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:33,380
a piece of media
that was designed to.

405
00:19:33,380 --> 00:19:38,343
To sell something and not not
to entertain in, in of itself.

406
00:19:38,343 --> 00:19:41,471
And so for a long time, I've just
really disliked ads.

407
00:19:41,471 --> 00:19:43,182
And basically,
for all the reasons

408
00:19:43,182 --> 00:19:46,684
you mentioned, not not wanted
to have anything

409
00:19:46,684 --> 00:19:50,105
even close to that, to touching
any of the stuff that I do.

410
00:19:50,105 --> 00:19:54,609
So I'm very more of an extremist
on that end. But I.

411
00:19:54,609 --> 00:19:56,028
Look at something
like values and value,

412
00:19:56,028 --> 00:19:59,323
and I go like, Yeah,
I think it just makes sense

413
00:19:59,323 --> 00:20:05,244
with all the other headwinds
in the industry of. Well, just

414
00:20:05,244 --> 00:20:08,289
yeah, yeah. I mean, like even
AI and things like that,

415
00:20:08,289 --> 00:20:12,669
it just seems
that value for value and now that

416
00:20:12,669 --> 00:20:15,672
there's some technology that.
Can help. Facilitate this

417
00:20:15,672 --> 00:20:18,008
a little bit better,
you know, the digital. Money.

418
00:20:18,008 --> 00:20:21,636
Yeah, programmable money.
I think that.

419
00:20:21,636 --> 00:20:25,057
That's just leading me to think
have values and values

420
00:20:25,057 --> 00:20:28,809
kind of the way to go
if it's not for everyone, it's

421
00:20:28,809 --> 00:20:32,772
not going to replace everything.
But I think it deserves a

422
00:20:32,772 --> 00:20:37,903
bigger portion or more adoption
than than it currently does.

423
00:20:37,903 --> 00:20:43,366
I think it's kind of
it's kind of a a sea change

424
00:20:43,366 --> 00:20:47,954
for podcasting
because before boosts

425
00:20:48,747 --> 00:20:53,251
and programmable money,
each podcaster had to set up

426
00:20:53,251 --> 00:20:56,672
their own boutique
way to support them

427
00:20:56,672 --> 00:20:58,298
and then there was
trends like Patreon,

428
00:20:58,298 --> 00:21:00,592
but we discovered
that wasn't ideal.

429
00:21:00,592 --> 00:21:03,845
And so each podcast, or depending
on the age of the podcast,

430
00:21:03,845 --> 00:21:06,765
is using some system
or YouTubers, you know,

431
00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:09,142
they have built in mechanisms now
on YouTube to do kind of like

432
00:21:09,142 --> 00:21:12,645
super chats and memberships
and one times and Twitch has

433
00:21:12,645 --> 00:21:15,315
a similar mechanism
with advertising with Prime

434
00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:18,484
and every platform and everybody
who's making

435
00:21:18,484 --> 00:21:20,945
media for that platform
is trying to do these built in

436
00:21:20,945 --> 00:21:25,366
monetisation options. But
Boo's are the only one

437
00:21:25,366 --> 00:21:29,829
that is absolutely 100%
vendor neutral. So that's a

438
00:21:29,829 --> 00:21:32,540
that's a big winner for me,
just trying to build the business

439
00:21:32,540 --> 00:21:35,376
on something and the fact
that the button can be built in

440
00:21:35,376 --> 00:21:38,212
on the new podcast
apps is massive.

441
00:21:38,212 --> 00:21:41,008
I've been hearing from people
that have just I just got a boost

442
00:21:41,008 --> 00:21:43,093
in to the show I did two days ago
from somebody

443
00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:46,721
who's been listening since 2007,
has never written and never

444
00:21:46,721 --> 00:21:50,392
ever contacted any other podcast.
But because the button was there

445
00:21:50,392 --> 00:21:53,228
and they had some stats,
they finally sent me a message

446
00:21:53,228 --> 00:21:56,772
after all these years.
And that's it's, it's

447
00:21:56,772 --> 00:22:01,236
powerful, really. And I think
the other element

448
00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:02,362
that I don't think
is going to make value

449
00:22:02,362 --> 00:22:04,573
for value, like take over
the medium completely

450
00:22:04,573 --> 00:22:07,659
but I do think makes makes it
now a bit inevitable. Is

451
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,207
we've never had this sort
of rising tide lifts all boats

452
00:22:14,207 --> 00:22:19,253
affect right when when I
as a podcaster on board

453
00:22:19,253 --> 00:22:22,423
a few hundred people to boosting
and you as a podcast are on board

454
00:22:22,423 --> 00:22:25,509
a few hundred people to boosting
and Adam on board a few thousand

455
00:22:25,509 --> 00:22:28,721
people to boost and you know
we all bring in more people on

456
00:22:28,721 --> 00:22:30,598
those are people
that are preloaded with stats

457
00:22:30,598 --> 00:22:33,268
that are interested in listening
to that ecosystem now

458
00:22:33,268 --> 00:22:34,603
and they're going to listen
to each other shows.

459
00:22:34,603 --> 00:22:37,689
And I definitely see
folks that are boosting my shows,

460
00:22:37,689 --> 00:22:39,732
that are boosting other shows,
and it's created

461
00:22:39,732 --> 00:22:43,569
this tight knit network
for it is forming

462
00:22:43,569 --> 00:22:46,323
this route structure
for podcasters.

463
00:22:46,323 --> 00:22:49,576
It's never existed before.
There's I've always

464
00:22:49,576 --> 00:22:54,038
always for like 17 or 18 years
felt like I am on my own

465
00:22:54,038 --> 00:22:56,958
little island of podcasting.
And people just happened,

466
00:22:56,958 --> 00:22:58,000
you know, their boats
happened to be

467
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,795
going by my island.
They see what I got over here

468
00:22:59,795 --> 00:23:04,215
and they stop by and they listen
to my podcasts. But now with the

469
00:23:04,215 --> 00:23:09,011
with the solidifying ideology
around value for value,

470
00:23:09,011 --> 00:23:12,473
the solidifying language, which
hasn't really been

471
00:23:12,473 --> 00:23:15,602
a shared language
outside of Adam shows

472
00:23:15,602 --> 00:23:20,773
and the technology, I really feel
a root structure that links me

473
00:23:20,773 --> 00:23:24,403
to other podcasters in a way
that I've never experienced,

474
00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:28,155
and that feels
like a massive shift to me.

475
00:23:28,155 --> 00:23:31,284
And the fact that, you know,
when somebody boosts me,

476
00:23:31,284 --> 00:23:34,121
then they're on the network,
they can boost you. It means that

477
00:23:34,121 --> 00:23:38,333
even if you don't have
a ginormous show, you can

478
00:23:38,333 --> 00:23:40,210
still participate
in this economy. And I

479
00:23:40,210 --> 00:23:42,045
I've mentioned it before,
but you know, the Bitcoin Dan

480
00:23:42,045 --> 00:23:46,298
pod that I do is
significantly smaller

481
00:23:46,298 --> 00:23:50,220
than our Linux Unplugged podcast.
And there have been weeks

482
00:23:50,220 --> 00:23:53,222
where we've made more in boosts
on the Bitcoin dad pod

483
00:23:53,222 --> 00:23:55,267
because it's a very, you know,
targeted audience. But we've made

484
00:23:55,267 --> 00:23:57,477
more in boost
on the Bitcoin debt pod

485
00:23:57,477 --> 00:23:59,395
than we did on Linux Unplugged,
which is a show

486
00:23:59,395 --> 00:24:01,147
that's been around
for almost a decade and has a

487
00:24:01,147 --> 00:24:04,442
ginormous audience.
Yeah and that's that's awesome.

488
00:24:04,442 --> 00:24:06,486
It it's not going to be forever,
but it won't work out

489
00:24:06,486 --> 00:24:09,196
for everybody that way.
But that to me felt like it.

490
00:24:09,196 --> 00:24:12,075
It's just all of that combined
with the language and the culture

491
00:24:12,075 --> 00:24:15,494
and the actual technology.
Bringing us all together

492
00:24:15,494 --> 00:24:18,457
feels like it's a whole new era
for podcasting. And so there's

493
00:24:18,457 --> 00:24:20,166
at least going to be some of us
that embrace that

494
00:24:20,166 --> 00:24:21,876
because it's it's
kind of irresistible

495
00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:24,211
when you understand all of it.
Yeah, for sure. And I know

496
00:24:24,211 --> 00:24:26,923
you were kind of looking out
for something like this because

497
00:24:26,923 --> 00:24:32,596
tuned into this, it was something
I think of in 2020. But before.

498
00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:37,433
Podcasting, 2.0, before that even
started, the index. And you were.

499
00:24:37,433 --> 00:24:40,936
Laying out basically all of these
all of the the problem,

500
00:24:40,936 --> 00:24:42,730
the same problems of that
you were seeing

501
00:24:42,730 --> 00:24:45,775
with advertising, with, you know,
not being able to connect

502
00:24:45,775 --> 00:24:49,362
with the audience
and whatnot of Spotify, trying to

503
00:24:49,362 --> 00:24:52,865
create the walled garden. Yeah,
I would have

504
00:24:52,865 --> 00:24:54,409
liked to see that clip.
I should play that

505
00:24:54,409 --> 00:24:56,786
clip on my shows.
That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah.

506
00:24:56,786 --> 00:24:59,705
I'll try and find out
which episode look I've met over

507
00:24:59,705 --> 00:25:02,041
the last three days.
I've listened to a lot of the

508
00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:04,336
deep dive. I can tell.
Yeah, Yeah, I tell you what,

509
00:25:04,336 --> 00:25:06,296
it has been something
that especially since

510
00:25:06,296 --> 00:25:08,381
I've gone independent,
I've really felt

511
00:25:08,381 --> 00:25:10,090
like it's an issue.
And when I went independent

512
00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:13,303
the next day I tried to launch
the membership program

513
00:25:13,303 --> 00:25:16,722
and that was really also before,
you know, everything

514
00:25:16,722 --> 00:25:21,478
we just talked about. And
it's it's been probably huge.

515
00:25:21,478 --> 00:25:25,565
It's been a huge success for us,
but it's been me trying to solve

516
00:25:25,565 --> 00:25:29,068
this problem that entire time,
trying to come at this problem

517
00:25:29,068 --> 00:25:33,405
in various different ways.
Hmm. Yeah, I mean. I suppose

518
00:25:33,405 --> 00:25:37,536
I want to get back to this
the start of JB as well, and I.

519
00:25:37,536 --> 00:25:43,250
Suppose the ending. Of a show. So
there's something

520
00:25:43,250 --> 00:25:46,961
I've been thinking about where I.
You know, I've. You've identified

521
00:25:46,961 --> 00:25:49,588
if you're a podcaster,
you tend to just

522
00:25:49,588 --> 00:25:53,175
accumulate more shows.
It grows outwards.

523
00:25:53,175 --> 00:25:57,556
I'm up to. Four. I had five
at one point. One of them

524
00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:00,892
I kind of let slip
and the RSS feed

525
00:26:00,892 --> 00:26:04,354
doesn't exist anymore. I'm sure
I'll pull it back at some point.

526
00:26:04,354 --> 00:26:08,107
But the when do you know
when to to end the show

527
00:26:08,107 --> 00:26:10,234
or even like, do
try as hard as possible

528
00:26:10,234 --> 00:26:13,238
to save it first? What's what's
kind of goes through your head

529
00:26:13,238 --> 00:26:17,826
when you're when you're doing all
of these shows. Well it's a

530
00:26:17,826 --> 00:26:20,036
lot easier when hardly
anybody listens. Let me tell you,

531
00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:22,288
It's a lot harder when.
What's the most

532
00:26:22,288 --> 00:26:27,626
you've had going at
one time as well? Mm hmm. I mean,

533
00:26:27,626 --> 00:26:31,423
we may have at one point been
been eight, eight or nine, maybe

534
00:26:31,423 --> 00:26:33,008
almost a dozen shows going.
And then we kind

535
00:26:33,008 --> 00:26:35,801
of whittle it down
to about eight. And then when

536
00:26:35,801 --> 00:26:37,886
we went independent,
kind of down to five. Yeah.

537
00:26:37,886 --> 00:26:39,931
And you would have
been appearing on most,

538
00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:43,183
if not all of those shows.
Not out of their height. No.

539
00:26:43,183 --> 00:26:45,644
We started to build out
shows that didn't require me,

540
00:26:45,644 --> 00:26:47,855
which was nice,
but I was probably on for four

541
00:26:47,855 --> 00:26:52,027
or five of them. Yeah.
Which is a lot. It's too many,

542
00:26:52,027 --> 00:26:54,570
honestly. It's still too many.
So there's there is

543
00:26:54,570 --> 00:26:58,782
sort of that kind of overwhelming
aspect of it is it's just

544
00:26:58,782 --> 00:27:02,369
that's just a too, too high
of a of a production low And I

545
00:27:02,369 --> 00:27:04,204
really starts because
with advertising

546
00:27:04,204 --> 00:27:06,374
you do need to have
a lot of inventory

547
00:27:06,374 --> 00:27:08,375
and then there's
a lot of, you know, you start

548
00:27:08,375 --> 00:27:09,877
at these shows, some of them
are successful.

549
00:27:09,877 --> 00:27:11,630
And so what we kind of
ended up with was sort of

550
00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:14,548
sort of our best hits. And so now
the problem is

551
00:27:14,548 --> 00:27:16,259
I have too many shows
that I'm doing,

552
00:27:16,259 --> 00:27:19,846
but all of them are doing well
and they all

553
00:27:19,846 --> 00:27:21,640
have a big following.
And there's going to

554
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:28,605
be a massive upset. Like.
And so that is very hard.

555
00:27:28,605 --> 00:27:31,566
So I have continued to do well.
And plus there's

556
00:27:31,566 --> 00:27:32,942
advertising revenue, right?
Like I said,

557
00:27:32,942 --> 00:27:35,362
when the sun shining,
there's that element too.

558
00:27:35,362 --> 00:27:39,365
So now, now it's like
the farm isn't producing anything

559
00:27:39,365 --> 00:27:41,201
because the sun
has stopped shining

560
00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:44,703
and or we're basically
almost out of produce

561
00:27:44,703 --> 00:27:47,999
and I'm exhausted
and I can tell I need I can tell

562
00:27:47,999 --> 00:27:51,169
I need to take some downtime.
I have these little rogue,

563
00:27:51,169 --> 00:27:53,421
you know, these little indicators
that I've developed are like

564
00:27:53,421 --> 00:27:56,548
signs on the road and I can
time approaching the real

565
00:27:56,548 --> 00:27:58,968
bad burn out exit. So
I've got to be careful. And so

566
00:27:58,968 --> 00:28:01,846
I know I have to cut back,
you know. So the question I now

567
00:28:01,846 --> 00:28:05,141
try to come to is,
can I transition other people in

568
00:28:05,141 --> 00:28:08,353
and keep the show going
some some shows? Can I just

569
00:28:08,353 --> 00:28:12,398
pause for a bit? I still really
obviously I still just

570
00:28:12,398 --> 00:28:15,818
really struggle with the question
because it's you feel a certain

571
00:28:15,818 --> 00:28:17,695
responsibility
if you create something

572
00:28:17,695 --> 00:28:21,240
and you ask people to like it
and they do like it

573
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,492
and they build a
routine around it,

574
00:28:23,492 --> 00:28:25,744
now I'm the jerk
that's going to go and

575
00:28:25,744 --> 00:28:29,665
stop it, you know?
So I still hate the problem.

576
00:28:29,665 --> 00:28:31,542
It's still really hard,
especially when

577
00:28:31,542 --> 00:28:34,378
they're doing well. It was
looking back at first.

578
00:28:34,378 --> 00:28:37,882
What I realised early on is like
I didn't recognise a failure

579
00:28:37,882 --> 00:28:40,926
because I hadn't
had a big success and so

580
00:28:40,926 --> 00:28:47,182
I was grinding it out
and that was a mistake

581
00:28:47,182 --> 00:28:50,436
that looking back now, I could
I could easily like office hours.

582
00:28:50,436 --> 00:28:52,439
I should, I shouldn't
be doing office hours.

583
00:28:52,439 --> 00:28:55,150
It qualifies. It doesn't
get enough downloads.

584
00:28:55,150 --> 00:28:58,111
It takes time that I could be
spending on other stuff.

585
00:28:58,111 --> 00:29:00,488
It doesn't really have
any kind of revenue potential,

586
00:29:00,488 --> 00:29:04,409
but in value for value,
that model changes

587
00:29:04,409 --> 00:29:05,785
and I can flip it on its head
and be like, Well,

588
00:29:05,785 --> 00:29:07,453
if I get enough
audience support for it

589
00:29:07,453 --> 00:29:08,997
and they demonstrate
its value to them,

590
00:29:08,997 --> 00:29:10,874
then it's worth
the company producing.

591
00:29:10,874 --> 00:29:14,210
And so we're continuing to run
office hours. So it's just

592
00:29:15,336 --> 00:29:17,713
my way of saying
it's really it depends.

593
00:29:17,713 --> 00:29:21,134
So when you if you have a show
that gets I mean,

594
00:29:21,134 --> 00:29:24,095
I just put numbers out
there, just my opinion.

595
00:29:24,095 --> 00:29:27,056
But if you get a show that gets,
you know, couple of couple

596
00:29:27,056 --> 00:29:28,724
thousand downloads,
you keep grinding

597
00:29:28,724 --> 00:29:30,101
that out for a while.
You probably grow it,

598
00:29:30,101 --> 00:29:33,104
but you might also
put it on the shelf,

599
00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:37,692
try something else
that maybe would be

600
00:29:37,692 --> 00:29:40,903
even a bigger hit and resonate,
because with the value for value,

601
00:29:40,903 --> 00:29:43,490
it still has to be worth them.
Supporting has to be worth them.

602
00:29:43,490 --> 00:29:45,200
Downloading doesn't mean
they're just going to

603
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,661
throw stats at you it's not worth
throwing assets at.

604
00:29:48,661 --> 00:29:51,705
So one of the things
that I took over those

605
00:29:51,705 --> 00:29:53,415
16 years or seven, whatever
you want to call it,

606
00:29:53,415 --> 00:29:56,920
15 years of doing
JV was I needed. I had to learn

607
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,588
which shows were failures
earlier on

608
00:29:59,588 --> 00:30:01,548
and I have internalised that now
and that's why we kind of

609
00:30:01,548 --> 00:30:04,676
have the load we have now,
the shows we do have. MM Yeah,

610
00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:09,973
because I look at the.
Models and. We, we've kind

611
00:30:09,973 --> 00:30:13,936
of branched out. Some things
and I've also changed some stuff

612
00:30:13,936 --> 00:30:17,190
and also funnily enough, like one
of the problems I think I have

613
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:22,278
is I don't lean in to
the successes sometimes.

614
00:30:22,278 --> 00:30:24,948
So for example,
I have this one show that that's

615
00:30:24,948 --> 00:30:27,575
actually the one which I let
lapse was called

616
00:30:27,575 --> 00:30:30,577
Lasagnes, and Spanglish
was basically where I would do

617
00:30:30,577 --> 00:30:35,124
Spanish book reviews. So I had.
I would do these book reviews

618
00:30:35,124 --> 00:30:37,919
in English,
and I've got my little book here

619
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,212
where I write my notes
for for the book review.

620
00:30:40,212 --> 00:30:43,758
And I was like, Man,
I'm doing all this work for a

621
00:30:43,758 --> 00:30:47,428
to do a book review in English.
Like, it's not that much extra

622
00:30:47,428 --> 00:30:52,099
to translate all that stuff
that I've got. Just, just write

623
00:30:52,099 --> 00:30:54,102
the exact I'd say
the exact same stuff,

624
00:30:54,102 --> 00:30:59,566
but in Spanish. And I'd do it
as like a, a another podcast.

625
00:30:59,566 --> 00:31:02,192
And that was an
that was definitely

626
00:31:02,192 --> 00:31:04,612
an audience for that,
where it was kind of, you know,

627
00:31:04,612 --> 00:31:07,949
because it's really neat.
A random Australian guy

628
00:31:07,949 --> 00:31:10,117
talking about
books that were written

629
00:31:10,117 --> 00:31:15,080
in English or for the vast
majority, English in English,

630
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,001
translating that
into Spanish. And so that was one

631
00:31:19,001 --> 00:31:22,337
of the shows that they like
kicked off. And I. Remember.

632
00:31:22,337 --> 00:31:25,842
As I was like deleting the feed
or the, the host

633
00:31:25,842 --> 00:31:27,551
that I was with was,
was ending it up.

634
00:31:27,551 --> 00:31:32,015
I quickly went on
to like the, the what was it.

635
00:31:32,015 --> 00:31:36,394
I think it was like the. Apple.
Podcast, a connect area

636
00:31:36,394 --> 00:31:38,061
where you can kind of
go in the back end.

637
00:31:38,061 --> 00:31:41,441
And I had like 600 subscribers
in there for first show, which

638
00:31:41,441 --> 00:31:47,488
I put not much effort into.
And I was like, Whoa. Holy shit,

639
00:31:47,488 --> 00:31:49,865
I didn't realise it.
It actually had kind of

640
00:31:49,865 --> 00:31:52,117
an audience base
and I'd let that lapse

641
00:31:52,117 --> 00:31:55,872
for ages because falling off it
actually did require

642
00:31:55,872 --> 00:31:59,666
a lot of energy
doing it in Spanish. And that was

643
00:31:59,666 --> 00:32:01,877
I was using that more
just to practice my Spanish

644
00:32:01,877 --> 00:32:06,340
rather than the joy of doing book
reviews in Spanish. Yeah,

645
00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:09,635
that makes it hard to stick with.
Yeah, for sure. And so

646
00:32:09,635 --> 00:32:12,430
there was a couple of things
where I was like, Oh man.

647
00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:15,767
I'm I've had.
Some some successes. Things

648
00:32:15,767 --> 00:32:18,853
kick off another one.
And this one I'm

649
00:32:18,853 --> 00:32:21,189
rather proud of was
I talked about this

650
00:32:21,189 --> 00:32:25,359
meme coin once and that was like
the most downloaded episode.

651
00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:29,279
It's just like, Jesus Christ.
What am I going to do? And

652
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,115
I've talked about it
once or twice before,

653
00:32:32,115 --> 00:32:35,369
but it's not like
I didn't transition the show

654
00:32:35,369 --> 00:32:38,538
to becoming like, Oh, let's talk
about meme coins or anything

655
00:32:38,538 --> 00:32:45,003
like that now. So it was. That.
Yeah, I'm just, I'm,

656
00:32:45,003 --> 00:32:48,215
I look at you and I'm
man I'm, I'm. Amazed at

657
00:32:48,215 --> 00:32:50,134
what you've done
and I kind of that's

658
00:32:50,134 --> 00:32:52,636
I feel like that's
kind of lifestyle I want to

659
00:32:52,636 --> 00:32:55,306
try and create it.
So I'd say you're much much

660
00:32:55,306 --> 00:32:58,226
ahead of me in that journey.
And I just go, you know,

661
00:32:58,226 --> 00:33:02,896
should I break up the models into
multiple different things

662
00:33:02,896 --> 00:33:06,483
where it's, you know,
conversations and one feed,

663
00:33:06,483 --> 00:33:09,153
you know, because we
kind of already have these

664
00:33:09,153 --> 00:33:13,115
distinct categories,
but we put it all in one feed.

665
00:33:13,115 --> 00:33:15,910
And I just yeah, I don't know.
It's one of those ones

666
00:33:15,910 --> 00:33:19,204
where I go, is it? Well,
a question for you,

667
00:33:19,204 --> 00:33:22,625
like you've created
many niche shows and you've,

668
00:33:22,625 --> 00:33:25,252
you know, you've got also shows
which kind of overlap.

669
00:33:25,252 --> 00:33:28,714
You had one exception show,
Linux Unplugged. I think you had

670
00:33:28,714 --> 00:33:32,468
a couple other ones which were,
you know, Linux adjacent.

671
00:33:32,468 --> 00:33:35,637
Would it have been better to
just have,

672
00:33:35,637 --> 00:33:38,682
you know, one main ship
and even if it had

673
00:33:38,682 --> 00:33:40,934
kind of slightly branching stuff,
it's still just the

674
00:33:40,934 --> 00:33:46,273
one place people go to.
Would have been a lot easier.

675
00:33:46,273 --> 00:33:50,236
I, I think if I had one dream,
it would be just one show,

676
00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:52,154
which I don't think
it's possible, but just one show

677
00:33:52,154 --> 00:33:54,699
to think about
one show to write notes for one

678
00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:57,576
show to focus on one show,
to do community stuff

679
00:33:57,576 --> 00:34:02,414
for one show for swag, you know,
just give it my absolute

680
00:34:02,414 --> 00:34:06,544
full attention. Yeah,
that sounds so great.

681
00:34:06,544 --> 00:34:09,380
But I think it would be
a two hour show

682
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:16,179
or maybe even twice a week. Yeah.
And I think there is

683
00:34:16,179 --> 00:34:19,599
I think there is a market
for long shows, obviously.

684
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:21,434
I think there's
some small podcast called Joe

685
00:34:21,434 --> 00:34:24,853
Rogan Experience that decent
you know, and. I might.

686
00:34:24,853 --> 00:34:28,983
Have heard of that before it's.
Longer but I you know

687
00:34:28,983 --> 00:34:31,860
not every podcaster is Joe
Rogan or Adam Curry

688
00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:34,780
and John Seed of work and can do
three hour podcast. You know

689
00:34:34,780 --> 00:34:38,701
and so I think if the topic it's
topic dependent

690
00:34:38,701 --> 00:34:42,746
but I think an hour
to an hour and ten

691
00:34:42,746 --> 00:34:45,791
is probably the most and like
with our Linux Action

692
00:34:45,791 --> 00:34:51,047
News podcast, today's episode
was like almost 15 minutes.

693
00:34:51,047 --> 00:34:54,132
I mean, it's really tight.
And if you think

694
00:34:54,132 --> 00:34:56,260
about the audience,
they're somebody that wants

695
00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:59,262
to stay informed on Linux,
doesn't really care

696
00:34:59,262 --> 00:35:01,641
about any of the drama.
Maybe they use it at work,

697
00:35:01,641 --> 00:35:04,726
maybe they do cloud development,
maybe they're just enthusiastic,

698
00:35:04,726 --> 00:35:06,103
but they want to just
stay focussed on

699
00:35:06,103 --> 00:35:09,023
that kind of stuff.
You're interested, but

700
00:35:09,023 --> 00:35:12,610
are you interested for 2 hours?
Probably not. You probably

701
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:14,195
got other things
going on in your life,

702
00:35:14,195 --> 00:35:16,155
but 15 minutes. Yeah,
you could pop that

703
00:35:16,155 --> 00:35:17,614
in on your way home.
You could, you know,

704
00:35:17,614 --> 00:35:19,784
you could listen
for 15 minutes and get, you know,

705
00:35:19,784 --> 00:35:22,619
get up to date. I don't think
it would work as a two hour show

706
00:35:22,619 --> 00:35:26,206
to do Linux news
out of all my shows,

707
00:35:26,206 --> 00:35:29,335
it'd be so easy to make Linux
unplugged 2 hours every week.

708
00:35:29,335 --> 00:35:31,253
I mean, our member show
that we record is often

709
00:35:31,253 --> 00:35:35,382
3 hours long. Yeah.
It's definitely easy

710
00:35:35,382 --> 00:35:40,221
and it would be wonderful, but
I kind of think

711
00:35:40,221 --> 00:35:43,891
one of the realities is, is that
you kind of have

712
00:35:43,891 --> 00:35:46,476
the whole people want
what's on the label.

713
00:35:46,476 --> 00:35:49,771
And if you've got a product
that says this talks

714
00:35:49,771 --> 00:35:53,483
about this thing
and then you open up that product

715
00:35:53,483 --> 00:35:56,153
and it's not that thing,
it's kind of like the toy

716
00:35:56,153 --> 00:35:56,987
you were talking about.
You're kind of

717
00:35:56,987 --> 00:36:01,324
disappointed, right? You feel a
little deceived. So it's hard

718
00:36:01,324 --> 00:36:03,994
not to have that
with a two hour show.

719
00:36:03,994 --> 00:36:06,246
What do you title it?
What's the focus of the show?

720
00:36:06,246 --> 00:36:09,583
What are the show notes focus on?
Because you likely talked about

721
00:36:09,583 --> 00:36:11,668
multi little things
that could be the focus

722
00:36:11,668 --> 00:36:13,753
of the show notes. So anything
you put in the show notes,

723
00:36:13,753 --> 00:36:15,965
anything you make
the title based on the artwork

724
00:36:15,965 --> 00:36:17,592
is only going to reflect
a single topic

725
00:36:17,592 --> 00:36:19,969
in that show at best.
So it doesn't really represent

726
00:36:19,969 --> 00:36:22,471
what the podcast is about.
Now of course, if you have a long

727
00:36:22,471 --> 00:36:25,891
standing audience, they get that.
But how do you build to that kind

728
00:36:25,891 --> 00:36:28,101
of large audience with a product
that doesn't seem

729
00:36:28,101 --> 00:36:31,563
to exactly appeal in discovery?
Like it just

730
00:36:31,563 --> 00:36:34,608
doesn't seem to work?
Like ultimately you,

731
00:36:34,608 --> 00:36:36,735
I think, hurt
your discovery options. You hurt

732
00:36:36,735 --> 00:36:38,987
your recommended
recommended listeners, you know,

733
00:36:38,987 --> 00:36:42,699
kind of funnel. And I think
you kind of end up with

734
00:36:42,699 --> 00:36:46,829
a diluted product,
even though personally

735
00:36:47,038 --> 00:36:50,498
it would absolutely do. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well you were.

736
00:36:50,498 --> 00:36:54,253
Talking I remember about the
like nation shows

737
00:36:54,253 --> 00:36:57,882
when you were doing that kind of
show overview on

738
00:36:57,882 --> 00:37:00,092
it was Office Hours, wasn't it,
where you were doing

739
00:37:00,092 --> 00:37:03,971
like the review of the shows.
And I guess we were,

740
00:37:03,971 --> 00:37:05,972
we were strolling through the
graveyard I. Suppose,

741
00:37:05,972 --> 00:37:08,226
and if that came out
at the perfect time for me,

742
00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:11,394
that really, really helped.
So I'm glad you did that episode.

743
00:37:11,394 --> 00:37:15,942
And the you. Were talking
about the nation of shows and how

744
00:37:15,942 --> 00:37:18,110
I suppose on the opposite
end of this you can have people.

745
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:22,447
Who are where. Where it's
your niche thing, but you kind

746
00:37:22,447 --> 00:37:27,702
of shouldn't because. The the.
Pat Flynn classic,

747
00:37:27,702 --> 00:37:31,539
like the riches
or riches in the niches and then

748
00:37:31,539 --> 00:37:33,918
it would be like,
you know or niches have you want

749
00:37:33,918 --> 00:37:39,090
to set and. They. There's kind of
like a faking aspect

750
00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:42,425
I guess where you're doing it
just because you know

751
00:37:42,425 --> 00:37:45,429
it'll do well. And you know,
you've had so much experience

752
00:37:45,429 --> 00:37:48,682
with this where you can kind of
tell like,

753
00:37:48,682 --> 00:37:51,476
you know, if I start up
another show on this one topic,

754
00:37:51,476 --> 00:37:57,608
it'll probably do okay. But then
if you if you try and force it

755
00:37:57,608 --> 00:38:02,280
in, if you're trying to force
a really niche and game show

756
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,199
and you're actually
not that into it, the audience

757
00:38:06,199 --> 00:38:09,577
can kind of tell after a while
what do you think it's about that

758
00:38:09,577 --> 00:38:11,496
that the audience can tell? Is it
something in

759
00:38:11,496 --> 00:38:15,626
your voice? Is it the.
Yeah, I don't know.

760
00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:17,168
It's it's, it's funny
like looking at that

761
00:38:17,168 --> 00:38:19,045
and going like,
what exactly is it

762
00:38:19,045 --> 00:38:22,300
that people can tell
is is kind of awful or weird

763
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:24,635
about something.
It makes you wonder like what

764
00:38:24,635 --> 00:38:28,264
what kind of like energy
are we signalling

765
00:38:28,264 --> 00:38:29,849
right to the audience
when they're listening?

766
00:38:29,849 --> 00:38:31,434
Can they tell we're tired?
Can they tell

767
00:38:31,434 --> 00:38:34,186
if we've had a bad day
and can they tell

768
00:38:34,186 --> 00:38:37,481
if we're disinterested?
And I suspect the reason

769
00:38:37,481 --> 00:38:39,442
why they can tell if you're
disinterested is a

770
00:38:39,442 --> 00:38:41,860
if they really know you right.
Because of podcasting,

771
00:38:41,860 --> 00:38:44,112
you spend a lot of time
with somebody's voice.

772
00:38:44,112 --> 00:38:46,114
You get to learn
sort of the moods

773
00:38:46,114 --> 00:38:51,161
and tones of their.
So like a lot of my audience, I,

774
00:38:51,161 --> 00:38:55,666
I had this interesting situation
with Linux Action News

775
00:38:55,666 --> 00:38:57,585
where we had to shut down
for a little while

776
00:38:57,585 --> 00:39:00,713
when we were still part of our
a parent company.

777
00:39:00,713 --> 00:39:04,300
I'll just say that. And I was
really limited with what I could

778
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:07,219
say about it. So I said
everything with tone

779
00:39:07,219 --> 00:39:08,887
and the listening,
The audience that

780
00:39:08,887 --> 00:39:10,847
has been listening
to me the longest

781
00:39:11,849 --> 00:39:14,226
was able to take the
entire subtext of the situation

782
00:39:14,226 --> 00:39:15,936
with without me
actually saying it.

783
00:39:15,936 --> 00:39:19,898
So you have that element of it.
Then I think ultimately

784
00:39:19,898 --> 00:39:21,942
the problem with a podcast
where you're

785
00:39:21,942 --> 00:39:24,110
not really passionate about the
subject material,

786
00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:27,072
you kind of found your success
this this is a thing

787
00:39:27,072 --> 00:39:30,159
that happens, I think,
with a lot of content creators,

788
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:33,036
especially with YouTubers
who find themselves in a niches

789
00:39:33,036 --> 00:39:34,246
they burn out,
they get, you know,

790
00:39:34,246 --> 00:39:35,956
you start something,
you're excited about it

791
00:39:35,956 --> 00:39:38,458
time goes on, you're not
really excited about it anymore.

792
00:39:38,458 --> 00:39:40,543
But now that's
what you're known for. So

793
00:39:40,543 --> 00:39:44,047
you got to keep doing it.
And so you just keep

794
00:39:44,047 --> 00:39:45,965
like I think about
these Minecraft YouTubers are,

795
00:39:45,965 --> 00:39:50,679
I'm not even kidding.
This morning I came across

796
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:54,307
a YouTuber who focuses on
Age of Empires two exclusively.

797
00:39:54,307 --> 00:39:57,936
On TikTok came. Out in like 1998
or something like that. Right?

798
00:39:57,936 --> 00:39:59,563
And that's his
you got to imagine he's

799
00:39:59,563 --> 00:40:01,148
a little burned
out on age empires

800
00:40:01,148 --> 00:40:04,025
after all this time. Right.
But it's what he's known for.

801
00:40:04,025 --> 00:40:07,737
And I think the reach can work
to a degree for some

802
00:40:07,737 --> 00:40:09,739
some things like games
because, you know, there's a

803
00:40:09,739 --> 00:40:12,576
community there. But if I'm
listening to a

804
00:40:12,576 --> 00:40:16,288
podcast about Linux
or Bitcoin or whatever

805
00:40:16,288 --> 00:40:20,793
it might be, I'm doing that
because I'm super enthusiastic

806
00:40:20,793 --> 00:40:25,755
about that thing.
I am really a nerd

807
00:40:25,755 --> 00:40:28,884
about Linux and Bitcoin
and that kind of stuff. And so

808
00:40:28,884 --> 00:40:32,137
as a nerd about something,
I can kind of tell when somebody

809
00:40:32,137 --> 00:40:34,347
else isn't a nerd and they're
not as excited,

810
00:40:34,347 --> 00:40:36,684
they're not picking
up on the things. And so

811
00:40:36,684 --> 00:40:39,811
I think that's also another
giveaway is you could just tell

812
00:40:39,811 --> 00:40:42,981
the host hasn't really been
keeping up to date on sort of

813
00:40:42,981 --> 00:40:46,068
the most recent stories
or some of the changes.

814
00:40:46,068 --> 00:40:47,193
Like that's a big thing
you could tell you

815
00:40:47,193 --> 00:40:50,114
with the Linux podcast,
or sometimes it's like, oh, you

816
00:40:50,114 --> 00:40:51,739
you haven't actually
been playing with this,

817
00:40:51,739 --> 00:40:53,909
you're just talking about it.
You have an opinion

818
00:40:53,909 --> 00:40:58,246
about something, but you never
actually used it in production.

819
00:40:58,246 --> 00:41:01,625
MM Oh. Okay. You know,
and then people, but they think

820
00:41:01,625 --> 00:41:03,668
it's human nature. Yeah.
You know, they can't help

821
00:41:03,668 --> 00:41:05,503
it, they, they got, they got to
try to get paid

822
00:41:05,503 --> 00:41:08,423
I guess or they got a they get,
they want the attention.

823
00:41:08,423 --> 00:41:10,759
I think a lot of them just do it
for attention. Yeah. That's

824
00:41:10,759 --> 00:41:12,344
good to know your thoughts.
Yeah that's,

825
00:41:12,344 --> 00:41:16,181
that's one of the ones
I worry about, which is getting

826
00:41:16,181 --> 00:41:17,849
getting stuck into something,
Like I said,

827
00:41:17,849 --> 00:41:21,019
with the kind of meme
coin thing, I. I don't want.

828
00:41:21,019 --> 00:41:24,106
To talk about it. It was,
it was a funny thing, but,

829
00:41:24,106 --> 00:41:27,443
you know, I'm not going to
dedicate my life or even

830
00:41:27,443 --> 00:41:30,445
a portion of my life
to to talking about this,

831
00:41:30,445 --> 00:41:36,076
this funny thing and. The
I think. The thing with YouTube

832
00:41:36,076 --> 00:41:39,371
as well as and video and we'll
get on to that shortly

833
00:41:39,371 --> 00:41:43,708
is is there is this
because they have such a strong

834
00:41:43,708 --> 00:41:47,213
for the audience to get back
at the YouTube comments

835
00:41:47,213 --> 00:41:50,632
I love YouTube comments
one of the the reasons why I.

836
00:41:50,632 --> 00:41:55,179
Will. Listen to a podcast
which is on and not on the audio

837
00:41:55,179 --> 00:41:58,724
platforms is not not even
for the visuals. It's just

838
00:41:58,724 --> 00:42:01,518
to be able to go to the comments.
And I scroll basically

839
00:42:01,518 --> 00:42:05,438
every YouTube video I go into,
I look at the comments, just

840
00:42:05,438 --> 00:42:08,817
I find it so, so valuable.
And I think that's maybe actually

841
00:42:08,817 --> 00:42:10,360
one of the things
that you might start

842
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,614
to see with if, if podcasts
does have the small community

843
00:42:14,614 --> 00:42:18,409
in the grassroots and,
and that forming is

844
00:42:18,409 --> 00:42:20,036
you could actually have
one of the bad things

845
00:42:20,036 --> 00:42:23,581
about YouTube, which is people
getting in stuck in these niches,

846
00:42:23,581 --> 00:42:25,208
which perhaps
I don't really want to.

847
00:42:25,208 --> 00:42:28,420
But you know, that's,
that's where they get

848
00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:30,672
some attention. That's where
they get some money. That's where

849
00:42:30,672 --> 00:42:33,007
they get fed. Maybe what it
whatever it is that

850
00:42:33,007 --> 00:42:36,637
they're looking for.
So, yeah, it's just one of

851
00:42:36,637 --> 00:42:38,722
the one of those ones
you've got to be careful of.

852
00:42:38,722 --> 00:42:42,016
I'm always more about the,
the consistency, the journey

853
00:42:42,016 --> 00:42:45,103
and that that's
probably why I won't break up

854
00:42:45,103 --> 00:42:49,275
any of the memorial stuff.
And we'll have a chat with you

855
00:42:49,275 --> 00:42:52,987
followed by what what's the one
that's coming out?

856
00:42:52,987 --> 00:42:54,989
We were talking about
getting sick. You can probably

857
00:42:54,989 --> 00:42:58,324
hear it in my voice. Have been
a little bit sick this last week.

858
00:42:58,324 --> 00:43:00,577
You know, we'll have
those two things kind of back

859
00:43:00,577 --> 00:43:03,871
to back and.
Yeah. It's it's okay. It's it's

860
00:43:03,871 --> 00:43:05,248
about the journey.
And then we'll have

861
00:43:05,248 --> 00:43:08,376
the monthly goals
about what we're doing. And it's

862
00:43:08,376 --> 00:43:12,005
more about the journey
rather than the the kind of like

863
00:43:12,005 --> 00:43:17,344
the final getting to one niche or
explaining this one thing

864
00:43:17,344 --> 00:43:20,806
really, really deeply.
I feel like if the whole world

865
00:43:20,806 --> 00:43:24,726
used fountain, this would
be a solved problem

866
00:43:24,726 --> 00:43:27,646
because I'm subscribed
to the show and I don't catch

867
00:43:27,646 --> 00:43:29,231
every episode,
but I can't catch up

868
00:43:29,231 --> 00:43:31,358
of their episode of everything
I've subscribed to.

869
00:43:31,358 --> 00:43:34,652
But I definitely notice
in Fountain when people

870
00:43:34,652 --> 00:43:37,905
start boosting in and commenting
in that activity feed.

871
00:43:37,905 --> 00:43:40,576
And I almost always listen to
those episodes when I see a lot

872
00:43:40,576 --> 00:43:42,702
of engagement
there, it's my signal.

873
00:43:42,702 --> 00:43:46,623
And that to me
is like a huge change

874
00:43:46,623 --> 00:43:48,708
if you could,
because then you could, you know,

875
00:43:48,708 --> 00:43:51,461
you could produce all day long
and this the high signal stuff

876
00:43:51,461 --> 00:43:53,922
raises to the top
because people are spending hard

877
00:43:53,922 --> 00:43:57,342
money on it to promote it.
And that to me would

878
00:43:57,342 --> 00:43:59,427
kind of open up the door
to what you're talking about

879
00:43:59,427 --> 00:44:01,722
a little bit more than,
the traditional model,

880
00:44:01,722 --> 00:44:05,559
which is get as many downloads
as possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

881
00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:09,688
I've I've always tried to
not focus on that.

882
00:44:09,688 --> 00:44:11,773
That was a period where we were
tracking things a lot

883
00:44:11,773 --> 00:44:14,943
and thankfully we gave it up.
So it's just like this.

884
00:44:14,943 --> 00:44:17,112
This is kind
of pointless, you know,

885
00:44:17,112 --> 00:44:19,864
even if Tumblr goes up slightly,
it doesn't. It doesn't

886
00:44:19,864 --> 00:44:22,534
mean anything. What does mean
something? Because, you know,

887
00:44:22,534 --> 00:44:26,079
a really nice email coming in
from someone reaching out

888
00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:31,001
or or Yeah, like a boost.
A classic You

889
00:44:31,001 --> 00:44:35,172
you sent in a voice. I think it's
the biggest boost we've had

890
00:44:35,172 --> 00:44:39,175
maybe maybe the second biggest.
And that has done more for

891
00:44:39,175 --> 00:44:43,389
the show than anything. You know,
any amount of social promoting.

892
00:44:43,389 --> 00:44:47,726
Any. Just like wheeling
and dealing some of my pod

893
00:44:47,726 --> 00:44:50,061
or strategies or or
anything like that.

894
00:44:50,061 --> 00:44:53,356
No, it was it was just, you know,
a very kind message

895
00:44:53,356 --> 00:44:56,527
and boost for me
that came in which elevated it.

896
00:44:56,527 --> 00:44:59,697
And it's great to have
those mechanisms. Yeah. Yeah.

897
00:44:59,697 --> 00:45:03,826
It's it's amazing how a listener
could send

898
00:45:03,826 --> 00:45:07,746
a large boost in and it
not only is like a shot

899
00:45:07,746 --> 00:45:11,291
of adrenaline
to keep the show going,

900
00:45:11,291 --> 00:45:15,003
but it is also
a major contributor

901
00:45:15,003 --> 00:45:18,507
if it's a large boost
to discovery because the,

902
00:45:18,507 --> 00:45:21,969
the thing is, and I would not
have guessed it, but you and

903
00:45:21,969 --> 00:45:25,514
I both have seen it found
in droves, numbers like that,

904
00:45:25,514 --> 00:45:28,891
like they have some users.
And when you get promoted

905
00:45:28,891 --> 00:45:31,478
on fountain, you get in
the top charts or you get on that

906
00:45:31,478 --> 00:45:36,275
activity page. It's it's a game
changer for a podcaster.

907
00:45:36,275 --> 00:45:38,568
We experienced the same thing
with the Bitcoin, D&D Pod and

908
00:45:38,568 --> 00:45:40,987
Linux Unplugged,
and both those places

909
00:45:40,987 --> 00:45:42,697
saw huge downloads
when we were on the top

910
00:45:42,697 --> 00:45:45,701
charts and it's great. And that's
how it should be, right?

911
00:45:45,701 --> 00:45:47,202
Because it's
essentially it's a it's

912
00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:49,579
a personal recommendation.
It's just done via SATs.

913
00:45:49,579 --> 00:45:53,250
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
But one of the. First things

914
00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:55,918
when Fountain first came out
with the charts, it wouldn't

915
00:45:55,918 --> 00:45:57,880
have worked back
then because I don't no one knew

916
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,884
about it, was I there's a clip of
me on the episode

917
00:46:01,884 --> 00:46:04,762
with Juan saying, you know,
if you wanted to game this,

918
00:46:04,762 --> 00:46:08,681
it would be so, so easy.
You know, set up

919
00:46:08,681 --> 00:46:10,726
a fountain account
on a separate phone

920
00:46:10,726 --> 00:46:13,811
or a separate device
load in a bunch of set.

921
00:46:13,811 --> 00:46:17,983
Send it to yourself.
You get, what, 90% of it back

922
00:46:17,983 --> 00:46:22,945
because Fountain takes four
and 1% gets the index. You know,

923
00:46:22,945 --> 00:46:26,074
that's that's a it's
one of those ones where it's like

924
00:46:26,074 --> 00:46:30,788
just because as it can be done
doesn't mean it should be done,

925
00:46:30,788 --> 00:46:34,333
I guess. Or it's like it
or in the opposite case, it's

926
00:46:34,333 --> 00:46:37,001
people will probably start
doing this

927
00:46:37,001 --> 00:46:39,505
I think, at some point.
And so it's just like,

928
00:46:39,505 --> 00:46:46,427
you know, enjoy the. The, the on.
Unfiltered. The purity of it.

929
00:46:46,427 --> 00:46:51,016
Yeah. The only kind of solace
there right. Is there is a cost

930
00:46:51,016 --> 00:46:55,353
to you. Yeah. But also to
the rest of the ecosystem

931
00:46:55,353 --> 00:46:57,856
because you know
if you start making it

932
00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,943
the norm to send in a row of mic
ducts or something all the time

933
00:47:00,943 --> 00:47:03,402
to get up on the charts,
well then you just raise the bar

934
00:47:03,402 --> 00:47:05,112
to get everybody else's
podcast on the chart.

935
00:47:05,112 --> 00:47:08,867
So there's that element of it.
But yeah, you could do it.

936
00:47:08,867 --> 00:47:10,034
I don't know how long
you'd want to do it,

937
00:47:10,034 --> 00:47:11,829
but if you think
about the process, you're either

938
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:13,789
going to take all the stats
you've earned

939
00:47:13,789 --> 00:47:16,625
and then just basically
keep taking a haircut

940
00:47:16,625 --> 00:47:20,586
or you get it. You're going to go
by SATs, you're going to go KYC,

941
00:47:20,586 --> 00:47:24,215
some SATs, just so that
way you can then send them in.

942
00:47:24,215 --> 00:47:27,594
And like the whole process,
right? It's just it's

943
00:47:27,594 --> 00:47:31,014
it's not as simple as going over
to a website

944
00:47:31,014 --> 00:47:33,182
giving them, you know,
your PayPal information

945
00:47:33,182 --> 00:47:36,728
and buying a bot farm to do
50,000 downloads on your podcast

946
00:47:36,728 --> 00:47:38,021
to get to the top
of the iTunes chart.

947
00:47:38,021 --> 00:47:40,815
That is a lot simpler.
Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

948
00:47:40,815 --> 00:47:45,695
But you know, like outfits like
iHeartRadio, they just

949
00:47:45,695 --> 00:47:47,947
and others, but they're the ones
that stick out in my memory

950
00:47:47,947 --> 00:47:49,615
at the moment.
They just openly talk

951
00:47:49,615 --> 00:47:51,367
about how that's part
of their marketing strategy

952
00:47:51,367 --> 00:47:53,704
is just going out and buying bots
to do downloads. So they show up

953
00:47:53,704 --> 00:47:56,206
on charts and they just consider
that the acquisition cost

954
00:47:56,206 --> 00:47:58,791
for a listener. Yeah, it's just.
The game, the charts.

955
00:47:58,791 --> 00:48:01,503
Yeah, it's insane. The I'm
one of the things one said

956
00:48:01,503 --> 00:48:04,505
when I first mentioned
that was also that kind

957
00:48:04,505 --> 00:48:08,635
of authenticity. Even no matter.
How well you craft that message,

958
00:48:08,635 --> 00:48:13,681
no matter. How. You do it.
People will kind. Of look at it

959
00:48:13,681 --> 00:48:15,641
and be like, some of it
seems a little bit off

960
00:48:15,641 --> 00:48:18,811
about this. You know, it's.
The why, why. Why is it coming

961
00:48:18,811 --> 00:48:20,021
at this time?
Why do they use that

962
00:48:20,021 --> 00:48:21,856
phrasing that
that's sort of stale?

963
00:48:21,856 --> 00:48:26,862
So. Yeah, it tends to come
out in the end if, if. If you

964
00:48:26,862 --> 00:48:29,239
starting job like.
You know nowadays.

965
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,994
So let's imagine you're a
I don't know, 15 years younger.

966
00:48:33,994 --> 00:48:35,871
I would, would.
Things have changed.

967
00:48:35,871 --> 00:48:37,956
So you used to do
video, a lot of video

968
00:48:37,956 --> 00:48:41,418
and then you kind of transitioned
out of it because it was

969
00:48:41,418 --> 00:48:46,882
taking so much time and the
I guess, pay off wasn't as much

970
00:48:46,882 --> 00:48:50,092
as the audio, which is
something I've noticed as well.

971
00:48:50,092 --> 00:48:53,137
The the audio is is
kind of where you want

972
00:48:53,137 --> 00:48:58,226
the the long term listeners to
to kind of be. How would would.

973
00:48:58,226 --> 00:49:00,853
Things have changed for you.
I think if if there had been

974
00:49:00,853 --> 00:49:03,106
more of this focus
which is on the short

975
00:49:03,106 --> 00:49:07,152
form on the tick tock on the
you know, splicing into things

976
00:49:07,152 --> 00:49:09,612
that are 2030 seconds longs would
do you think

977
00:49:09,612 --> 00:49:14,117
you would have done the
video differently? Would Yeah.

978
00:49:14,117 --> 00:49:16,661
I'm curious as to what you think
your shows might have been like

979
00:49:16,661 --> 00:49:19,998
if you were doing video
or starting off with,

980
00:49:19,998 --> 00:49:26,213
with the kind of current era of
of how media is consumed.

981
00:49:26,545 --> 00:49:29,715
The thing that probably is
the biggest change from how

982
00:49:29,715 --> 00:49:31,842
we were doing video
back in the day

983
00:49:31,842 --> 00:49:36,347
is it's so obvious in retrospect
but the whole clips channel

984
00:49:36,347 --> 00:49:39,226
where you take an hour
or two hour long podcast

985
00:49:39,226 --> 00:49:41,143
and you cut it down
into 2 to 5 minute,

986
00:49:41,143 --> 00:49:44,690
ten minute clips and you release
them on YouTube.

987
00:49:44,690 --> 00:49:48,193
So obvious it didn't.
I'd never even occurred to us,

988
00:49:48,193 --> 00:49:52,030
you know, we were trying to make
YouTube the place to do long term

989
00:49:52,030 --> 00:49:55,242
longform content. I wanted people
to be interested in watching

990
00:49:55,242 --> 00:49:56,994
an hour long or two hour
long podcast, and

991
00:49:56,994 --> 00:50:01,039
there are people now,
you know, I got I know you

992
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:02,248
probably know since you've
been listening

993
00:50:02,248 --> 00:50:06,003
to the back catalogue,
but I got harassed every episode.

994
00:50:06,003 --> 00:50:09,380
If you go look at the comments
on our old videos, every episode,

995
00:50:09,380 --> 00:50:11,632
people are in the comments
and I'd get emails harassing me

996
00:50:11,632 --> 00:50:14,135
for having a big microphone
in headphones on while I'm

997
00:50:14,135 --> 00:50:16,554
doing video and now
everybody does it

998
00:50:16,554 --> 00:50:20,182
on video and YouTube. So I would
probably be inclined

999
00:50:20,182 --> 00:50:24,061
to start video if I were
starting today and then do the

1000
00:50:24,061 --> 00:50:29,443
clips thing. However,
that's because I would be

1001
00:50:29,443 --> 00:50:33,112
an amateur idiot, right?
Not I would not be an experienced

1002
00:50:33,112 --> 00:50:38,744
podcaster. Audio is such a
beautiful medium. It is,

1003
00:50:38,744 --> 00:50:41,746
first of all, way
more entertaining to visual

1004
00:50:41,746 --> 00:50:44,291
to visualise me than it is
to actually see me. Like that's

1005
00:50:44,291 --> 00:50:46,333
just the reality of it.
That's always the truth.

1006
00:50:46,333 --> 00:50:48,753
We never live up to the image
in people's mind.

1007
00:50:48,753 --> 00:50:51,422
And the other thing is,
is if I want to do this

1008
00:50:51,422 --> 00:50:56,052
for the next 15 to 30 years,
however long my health holds out,

1009
00:50:57,304 --> 00:51:00,222
I want to do this from spots
all around the world

1010
00:51:00,222 --> 00:51:03,518
and likely in places where I
have borderline, barely

1011
00:51:03,518 --> 00:51:05,561
any connectivity.
And I'm having the

1012
00:51:05,561 --> 00:51:07,063
time of my life
and I'm coming down

1013
00:51:07,063 --> 00:51:08,398
and I'm sitting
down on these shows

1014
00:51:08,398 --> 00:51:11,525
and I'm energised from my trip,
I'm energised

1015
00:51:11,525 --> 00:51:13,903
from where I'm staying
and the travel and I

1016
00:51:13,903 --> 00:51:17,657
can bring that into the show
and just have a great podcast.

1017
00:51:17,657 --> 00:51:19,951
And if I need to have
a five megabit up down

1018
00:51:19,951 --> 00:51:24,039
video stream with low latency
to, to do that,

1019
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:25,706
or if I got to bring
a whole bunch of camera

1020
00:51:25,706 --> 00:51:29,835
gear with me on my trips,
it's not as much fun.

1021
00:51:29,835 --> 00:51:32,838
And it also limits
what I can create

1022
00:51:32,838 --> 00:51:36,259
and what I can publish
when I'm mobile.

1023
00:51:36,259 --> 00:51:40,387
And I today for a while
I have been very stationary,

1024
00:51:40,387 --> 00:51:42,641
but there will be a period
in my life where I'm not

1025
00:51:42,641 --> 00:51:46,311
stationary and I
when I am out and about

1026
00:51:46,311 --> 00:51:48,730
or I'm travelling,
staying in a hotel room

1027
00:51:48,730 --> 00:51:54,820
or in my RV or camping,
I am so grateful to do audio

1028
00:51:54,820 --> 00:51:58,072
and it just enables me
to, to continue to podcast

1029
00:51:58,072 --> 00:52:00,909
because if you're doing something
for 30 years, you make it hard

1030
00:52:00,909 --> 00:52:03,911
on yourself, It really becomes
a grind. So what we've

1031
00:52:03,911 --> 00:52:06,289
kind of done is we've done
this minimum viable video

1032
00:52:06,289 --> 00:52:09,041
setup where I've got webcams
in the studio and when we do

1033
00:52:09,041 --> 00:52:11,670
the podcast from the studio,
which is like 90% of the time,

1034
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:14,130
I turn the webcams on
and we record that

1035
00:52:14,130 --> 00:52:15,840
and we stream it
on our peer tube.

1036
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,509
I don't even really
I stream it on YouTube,

1037
00:52:17,509 --> 00:52:19,260
but I don't even keep it on
YouTube afterwards.

1038
00:52:21,304 --> 00:52:23,849
And I mean, I just I just
can't stand the YouTube

1039
00:52:23,849 --> 00:52:28,978
algorithm, the platform, the way
it kind of incentivises people to

1040
00:52:28,978 --> 00:52:31,606
essentially compromise
on their morals

1041
00:52:31,606 --> 00:52:36,152
as a creator, to appeal
to that audience, to the kids

1042
00:52:36,152 --> 00:52:37,987
that watch YouTube,
to the algorithm.

1043
00:52:37,987 --> 00:52:40,364
And I just wouldn't
really want to be

1044
00:52:40,364 --> 00:52:42,492
caught up in that.
And I wouldn't want

1045
00:52:42,492 --> 00:52:48,581
my income to come from
something as finicky as Google

1046
00:52:48,581 --> 00:52:51,418
and YouTube. Yeah,
which has new trends

1047
00:52:51,418 --> 00:52:54,628
and new crazy things happening,
you know, every year or two.

1048
00:52:54,628 --> 00:52:55,922
And you got to
really harness those

1049
00:52:55,922 --> 00:52:57,965
and ride them
or you get left behind

1050
00:52:57,965 --> 00:53:00,260
as a creator and you stop growing
because the algorithm

1051
00:53:00,260 --> 00:53:03,387
no longer recommends you because
it's no longer a hot thing.

1052
00:53:03,387 --> 00:53:05,806
I just, I would hate
to be trapped into that game,

1053
00:53:05,806 --> 00:53:07,934
whereas with audio podcasting,
it feels like

1054
00:53:07,934 --> 00:53:09,978
I can actually build a
small, sustainable business

1055
00:53:10,936 --> 00:53:13,190
that is just totally
more focussed on content.

1056
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:15,608
Because that's the other unsaid
thing about the video

1057
00:53:15,608 --> 00:53:19,195
is when you run, when you least
if you care about production

1058
00:53:19,195 --> 00:53:21,697
and you care about presentation,
well then you need to

1059
00:53:21,697 --> 00:53:23,742
also kind of focus on the optics
of the camera.

1060
00:53:23,742 --> 00:53:25,367
Maybe you should be
capturing your screen.

1061
00:53:25,367 --> 00:53:28,538
If you're talking about a story,
maybe you better have a switcher

1062
00:53:28,538 --> 00:53:30,206
so you can switch
between your hosts

1063
00:53:30,206 --> 00:53:32,791
and, you know, like
now you're kind of

1064
00:53:32,791 --> 00:53:34,793
focusing a little bit more on
that than you are

1065
00:53:34,793 --> 00:53:36,713
the actual content
of the conversation

1066
00:53:36,713 --> 00:53:39,007
or even the research.
Because if you spend 20 minutes

1067
00:53:39,007 --> 00:53:41,300
getting the video
set up as 20 minutes, you didn't

1068
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:44,596
spend getting research done
or the show prepped, right?

1069
00:53:44,596 --> 00:53:47,932
So it's there is a real
cost to it. So I think I would,

1070
00:53:47,932 --> 00:53:49,266
if I were starting out
today, do a video,

1071
00:53:49,266 --> 00:53:51,268
but I'm not sure would
actually be the right decision.

1072
00:53:51,268 --> 00:53:54,606
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Once again,
this one of the things

1073
00:53:54,606 --> 00:53:58,275
I think about and it's
kind of, you know, what's

1074
00:53:59,652 --> 00:54:02,489
the best way to grow your
show sort of deal is you know

1075
00:54:02,489 --> 00:54:05,617
the recommendation is video
and I've seen it

1076
00:54:05,617 --> 00:54:08,286
because you can have this kind
of virality component

1077
00:54:08,286 --> 00:54:12,081
which you don't get on audio.
You know, audio is the long

1078
00:54:12,081 --> 00:54:16,961
term slow guy, whereas
you can kick off I guess with

1079
00:54:16,961 --> 00:54:22,092
with something video related.
But yeah, it is. And then it's.

1080
00:54:22,092 --> 00:54:23,927
Kind of just like,
you know, for me

1081
00:54:23,927 --> 00:54:27,681
I look at as a feed a mechanism.
As for people who are watching

1082
00:54:27,681 --> 00:54:30,976
the video to, to gradually
try and get them to come over

1083
00:54:30,976 --> 00:54:34,813
to the audio side of things. But.
But I wonder

1084
00:54:34,813 --> 00:54:39,108
how effective that is. A lot.
Of the time and if just creating

1085
00:54:39,108 --> 00:54:41,318
a bunch of people who are like
looking out for the

1086
00:54:41,318 --> 00:54:46,240
next video thing and not not ever
coming across, you know, it's

1087
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:50,954
it's kind of hard to say.
I as a podcast listener

1088
00:54:51,288 --> 00:54:54,331
like it when I can
catch the podcast on YouTube,

1089
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:59,170
like your episode with Dave Jones
finished on YouTube

1090
00:54:59,170 --> 00:55:02,548
because I started in the car,
we we were driving down,

1091
00:55:02,548 --> 00:55:05,010
but then we finished it
just on YouTube while we're

1092
00:55:05,010 --> 00:55:08,012
in the studio and that was nice
to build a jump

1093
00:55:08,012 --> 00:55:10,014
between like that.
Another podcast

1094
00:55:10,014 --> 00:55:13,268
I listened to earlier
this morning because I was just

1095
00:55:13,268 --> 00:55:14,853
listening on my phone
here in the studio as I was

1096
00:55:14,853 --> 00:55:16,478
walking around.
Even though they don't

1097
00:55:16,478 --> 00:55:18,731
have any video,
but they put it on YouTube, it's

1098
00:55:18,731 --> 00:55:21,735
just their album I still listen
to on YouTube. I have the app up.

1099
00:55:21,735 --> 00:55:24,695
It is actually new pipe,
not YouTube app. I like the new

1100
00:55:24,695 --> 00:55:28,365
pipe app. So you know,
I'm a bit of a hypocrite

1101
00:55:28,365 --> 00:55:32,286
in this department.
So we do publish our our audio

1102
00:55:32,286 --> 00:55:35,748
on YouTube and we generate
a waveform that visualises

1103
00:55:35,748 --> 00:55:37,751
the actual thing
that we're saying and all that

1104
00:55:37,751 --> 00:55:39,878
kind of stuff, but they don't do
very well.

1105
00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:43,757
I mean, compared to the
podcast, I don't I don't even

1106
00:55:44,798 --> 00:55:46,967
look at the numbers on YouTube.
I don't report them

1107
00:55:46,967 --> 00:55:50,722
to advertisers. They're just,
they're so insignificant

1108
00:55:50,722 --> 00:55:53,099
that if I shut down the entire
YouTube channel,

1109
00:55:53,099 --> 00:55:55,643
it would literally
not even affect the podcast.

1110
00:55:55,643 --> 00:55:58,480
It would be unnoticed.
Yeah, I like it there for people

1111
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,856
that do want that platform,
because for some people

1112
00:56:00,856 --> 00:56:04,110
YouTube's a platform
they have access to on their TV

1113
00:56:04,110 --> 00:56:06,820
or their mobile device
or their carrier gives them

1114
00:56:06,820 --> 00:56:10,407
some sort of crappy data deal
if they use YouTube or whatever

1115
00:56:10,407 --> 00:56:15,163
it is, Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's and like I said, the

1116
00:56:15,163 --> 00:56:18,375
there's, there's certain ones
I've a bunch of your, your shows

1117
00:56:18,375 --> 00:56:21,503
I did listen to on, on YouTube.
I still have some

1118
00:56:21,503 --> 00:56:25,172
in the playlists like way back.
Of I've. Just been

1119
00:56:25,172 --> 00:56:28,675
meaning to get to and you know
because I type something in

1120
00:56:28,675 --> 00:56:31,512
and I found found your show
I was like oh sweet. This is like

1121
00:56:31,512 --> 00:56:34,641
the easiest way to get to it
versus trying to, you know,

1122
00:56:34,641 --> 00:56:37,768
scroll through, find the episode.
And in some of the apps,

1123
00:56:37,768 --> 00:56:39,353
you know, there's,
there's definitely

1124
00:56:39,353 --> 00:56:44,692
the experience. Of that.
That it has of some

1125
00:56:44,692 --> 00:56:46,777
functionalities of, you know,
the search

1126
00:56:46,777 --> 00:56:50,114
of populating things of
of comments cross up comments

1127
00:56:50,114 --> 00:56:53,909
and and. Really even yeah.
Just being in the web

1128
00:56:53,909 --> 00:56:55,661
browser when you're
researching a topic, you know,

1129
00:56:55,661 --> 00:56:58,998
you got six or seven tabs open.
YouTube is one of the tabs right?

1130
00:56:58,998 --> 00:57:02,085
And so it's just it's
nice to have it there as well.

1131
00:57:02,085 --> 00:57:04,420
I get it. And I know
there's some arguments

1132
00:57:04,420 --> 00:57:05,880
out there about, well,
you shouldn't be on

1133
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,090
every platform
just because that's

1134
00:57:07,090 --> 00:57:09,634
where the audience is.
But same time, it's

1135
00:57:09,634 --> 00:57:11,385
like YouTube's
also the number two search engine

1136
00:57:11,385 --> 00:57:16,266
in the world. So. Yeah, correct.
Correct. Do you have much thought

1137
00:57:16,266 --> 00:57:20,561
about doing evergreen versus
highly specific content?

1138
00:57:20,561 --> 00:57:22,146
Because I was going through
some of your old stuff

1139
00:57:22,146 --> 00:57:25,567
and I came across one, which was
Spider oak versus

1140
00:57:25,567 --> 00:57:28,485
BitTorrent Sync, and I just went,
Man, I've never heard

1141
00:57:28,485 --> 00:57:30,447
either of these two things.
I don't know if they're

1142
00:57:30,447 --> 00:57:33,282
still around. This is from a
dozen ages ago.

1143
00:57:34,992 --> 00:57:39,706
How much do you do? You look
back at old episodes and and

1144
00:57:39,706 --> 00:57:42,583
like enjoy the ones which were
highly specific and then

1145
00:57:42,583 --> 00:57:45,961
and then kind of go
like, oh, wow, Yeah. That was

1146
00:57:45,961 --> 00:57:49,965
you know, it just doesn't
exist anymore. Yeah, that's

1147
00:57:49,965 --> 00:57:52,135
that is probably an example of a
pivot episode

1148
00:57:52,135 --> 00:57:55,096
I might not do today.
It's those are those tools

1149
00:57:55,096 --> 00:57:58,724
though, BitTorrent,
sync and Spider Oak and all those

1150
00:57:58,724 --> 00:58:01,478
thinking tools. There's
a whole category of them.

1151
00:58:01,478 --> 00:58:04,688
We're very, very popular
for a hot couple of years

1152
00:58:04,688 --> 00:58:07,608
and so it made sense.
But you're right, looking back

1153
00:58:07,608 --> 00:58:10,110
at a decade later,
it's like, yeah, those

1154
00:58:10,110 --> 00:58:13,947
those don't even exist, though.
It's kind of like a time

1155
00:58:13,947 --> 00:58:15,699
capsule, right?
Like if you wanted to go

1156
00:58:15,699 --> 00:58:20,413
learn about BitTorrent
saying you could, it was cool.

1157
00:58:20,413 --> 00:58:23,373
We distributed our shows
with BitTorrent Sync for a while

1158
00:58:23,373 --> 00:58:25,751
and I loved it. I thought it was
the greatest because like

1159
00:58:25,751 --> 00:58:27,628
I could throw all the clips
in the folder too,

1160
00:58:27,628 --> 00:58:30,965
and they could have all the clips
we had used and it was

1161
00:58:30,965 --> 00:58:33,342
the album art and put the album
art in there. You can have

1162
00:58:33,342 --> 00:58:36,094
the album art, you get the file.
And the great part was,

1163
00:58:36,094 --> 00:58:38,639
is as soon as I was
done encoding,

1164
00:58:38,639 --> 00:58:40,182
I would just save it
to the folder they could sync.

1165
00:58:40,182 --> 00:58:43,478
So like if you got our shows over
BitTorrent sync, you got it.

1166
00:58:43,478 --> 00:58:46,481
Like the moment it was done
right into my file system, it was

1167
00:58:46,481 --> 00:58:51,360
super slick. So I do kind of
enjoy the nostalgia of going back

1168
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,447
and looking at that kind of stuff
because we've we've covered

1169
00:58:54,447 --> 00:58:58,826
such a journey. When you're doing
content multiple times a week,

1170
00:58:58,826 --> 00:59:00,869
you almost can't help
but go current.

1171
00:59:00,869 --> 00:59:05,083
Yeah, don't agree.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

1172
00:59:05,083 --> 00:59:07,751
Those evergreen stuff
would be better, honestly.

1173
00:59:07,751 --> 00:59:11,172
And I think we probably skew
a little more evergreen now in,

1174
00:59:11,172 --> 00:59:14,634
but even even still, like in
Coda Radio, it's

1175
00:59:14,634 --> 00:59:16,719
very current usually
because there's a lot to be

1176
00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:19,222
processing and chewing on.
But then I look at CODA radio

1177
00:59:19,222 --> 00:59:23,726
and I think, well, now we have
sort of this journal

1178
00:59:23,726 --> 00:59:28,773
of when the App Store launched
to, to today and kind of

1179
00:59:28,773 --> 00:59:33,527
our concerns and commentary
along the entire way

1180
00:59:33,527 --> 00:59:36,697
and is so in there is
we talk to these guys

1181
00:59:36,697 --> 00:59:38,992
that we're doing like this doc
computer thing or whatever

1182
00:59:38,992 --> 00:59:41,786
it was called iCloud
that turned out to be

1183
00:59:41,786 --> 00:59:44,163
the co-founders of Docker
that created, you know,

1184
00:59:44,163 --> 00:59:47,041
the Container Revolution.
And we had them on CODA radio

1185
00:59:47,041 --> 00:59:48,626
when they were like, Yeah,
we're trying this thing.

1186
00:59:48,626 --> 00:59:50,795
We think it could be a cool way
to package up your applications

1187
00:59:50,795 --> 00:59:52,838
and move it around. Like,
Oh yeah, that does

1188
00:59:52,838 --> 00:59:55,132
seem like a good idea.
And so to be able to

1189
00:59:55,132 --> 00:59:58,094
just kind of chart
that is pretty nice.

1190
00:59:58,094 --> 01:00:00,722
Even if it was sort of topical
at the time because cloud isn't

1191
01:00:00,722 --> 01:00:02,724
even around anymore
now they're like Docker

1192
01:00:02,724 --> 01:00:06,643
Ink or whatever, but it's neat
to have that in the record.

1193
01:00:06,643 --> 01:00:09,563
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
That, that is kind of cool.

1194
01:00:09,563 --> 01:00:12,608
I Never thought of that
aspect of the, the capturing

1195
01:00:12,608 --> 01:00:15,862
of things and. Jeff Well you've,
you've captured a lot so.

1196
01:00:15,862 --> 01:00:18,739
You'll never run out. Of stuff
to look back upon in

1197
01:00:18,739 --> 01:00:20,532
life or creating
shows smile. About.

1198
01:00:22,034 --> 01:00:26,789
A lot of cringing. Yeah yeah man.
One of the things I

1199
01:00:26,789 --> 01:00:30,335
really admire about you
is this kind of the. Ability to.

1200
01:00:30,335 --> 01:00:32,295
I suppose, like,
predict the future somewhat.

1201
01:00:32,295 --> 01:00:34,713
So you obviously nailed it
with, with Linux

1202
01:00:34,713 --> 01:00:36,548
and established chops
with that. But also, I.

1203
01:00:36,548 --> 01:00:40,802
Mean, even, you. Know, you had a
Bitcoin podcast in 2013.

1204
01:00:40,802 --> 01:00:44,641
That's insane.
It was called Plan B. I actually

1205
01:00:44,641 --> 01:00:46,309
there's one of those funny ones
where it's like

1206
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:49,436
the internet, you know, somewhat
archives thing. So even though

1207
01:00:49,436 --> 01:00:53,231
I couldn't find the. Audio.
On listening notes, you can still

1208
01:00:53,231 --> 01:00:56,693
see the 20 episodes
that that it was and what you

1209
01:00:56,693 --> 01:00:59,864
what you talked about in it.
And so like there was

1210
01:00:59,864 --> 01:01:03,326
things in there where you talked
about Satoshi Dice

1211
01:01:03,326 --> 01:01:08,748
getting sold and by by Eric
Voorhees and you know

1212
01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:11,291
this was before Mt. Gox as well.
And you were talking about.

1213
01:01:11,291 --> 01:01:15,253
How well the. The notes said
you were talking about how

1214
01:01:15,253 --> 01:01:18,007
the problem with Mt. Gox and,
you know, the kind

1215
01:01:18,007 --> 01:01:22,427
of centralisation there. Yeah.
And where does this come from?

1216
01:01:22,427 --> 01:01:25,931
Is it do you think it's like
personality traits of yourself

1217
01:01:25,931 --> 01:01:29,686
that you're really good at
looking at the future

1218
01:01:29,686 --> 01:01:32,355
or is it kind of you're
just so deep into the tech stuff

1219
01:01:32,355 --> 01:01:34,690
that it's kind of. Like.
You see good ideas

1220
01:01:34,690 --> 01:01:38,902
and it's like this is inevitably
going to happen. Hmm.

1221
01:01:38,902 --> 01:01:41,489
Yeah, it's got to be a little bit
all the above, right? Because

1222
01:01:41,489 --> 01:01:44,951
when I was younger it was
I was so into the technology

1223
01:01:44,951 --> 01:01:47,536
that it was just clear
this was good technology.

1224
01:01:47,536 --> 01:01:52,583
And then I've gotten older
and I've kind of stack some

1225
01:01:52,583 --> 01:01:55,378
some wins as far as predictions.
I've just kind of

1226
01:01:55,378 --> 01:01:58,422
become a little bit
more confident in my ability

1227
01:01:58,422 --> 01:02:00,425
to call it. So it's sort of
now it's changed.

1228
01:02:00,425 --> 01:02:01,675
Now it's more of a
personality thing.

1229
01:02:01,675 --> 01:02:04,219
But before I think it was just
that really early on

1230
01:02:04,219 --> 01:02:07,306
I was really sceptical
of, of my opinion because nobody

1231
01:02:07,306 --> 01:02:08,349
else around me
would seem to agree

1232
01:02:08,349 --> 01:02:10,809
about Linux or Bitcoin
or podcasting even.

1233
01:02:10,809 --> 01:02:14,063
Man, oh my God, podcasting.
You want to talk about something

1234
01:02:14,063 --> 01:02:16,065
that's even still awkward
to this day? So what do you do?

1235
01:02:16,065 --> 01:02:21,112
Yeah, I'm a podcaster. Oh,
and you make money at that? Yeah.

1236
01:02:21,112 --> 01:02:25,949
Yep, yep, I make money at that.
Really? And that's all you do?

1237
01:02:25,949 --> 01:02:29,661
Yep. That's all I do. It's.
It's a it's a crazy conversation.

1238
01:02:29,661 --> 01:02:33,081
Still, people can't believe it's
an actual job. And,

1239
01:02:33,081 --> 01:02:37,003
you know, like, I heard my dad
explain it once as he's

1240
01:02:37,003 --> 01:02:39,130
kind of like a college
radio station on the very end.

1241
01:02:39,130 --> 01:02:40,047
People listen,
but it's kind of like

1242
01:02:40,047 --> 01:02:45,844
college radio. Okay? You know,
And so a lot of my life

1243
01:02:45,844 --> 01:02:48,514
was people telling me
I had made the wrong choice

1244
01:02:48,514 --> 01:02:51,184
or something to that effect.
And then kind of getting

1245
01:02:51,184 --> 01:02:54,144
on the other end of those choices
and having them work out is like,

1246
01:02:54,144 --> 01:02:56,396
Oh, screw all you.
I was right all along.

1247
01:02:56,396 --> 01:02:59,692
So then that builds confidence a
little bit. And so then you

1248
01:02:59,692 --> 01:03:04,905
kind of become but I think I am
the first person role,

1249
01:03:04,905 --> 01:03:06,907
and I'm sure probably
a lot of people relate to this

1250
01:03:06,907 --> 01:03:08,867
because I'm not the only person
like this, but when everybody

1251
01:03:08,867 --> 01:03:11,496
starts going in one direction,
I start going,

1252
01:03:11,496 --> 01:03:15,208
Why are we all going in
that direction? What's over here?

1253
01:03:15,208 --> 01:03:19,128
And so I just have this natural
kind of I go against the grain.

1254
01:03:19,128 --> 01:03:25,802
I, I tend to go really deep
into research

1255
01:03:25,802 --> 01:03:29,179
to an obsessive level
where, you know, maybe

1256
01:03:29,179 --> 01:03:31,974
for depends
on the topic finances.

1257
01:03:31,974 --> 01:03:35,686
It was about two years.
Um, some things it's a, it's a,

1258
01:03:35,686 --> 01:03:38,438
you know, a couple of days,
but I go really deep,

1259
01:03:38,438 --> 01:03:40,817
read everything,
every book I can find, watch

1260
01:03:40,817 --> 01:03:42,610
every YouTube video. I mean, I'm
watching YouTube

1261
01:03:42,610 --> 01:03:44,445
videos constantly.
If I'm not on there,

1262
01:03:44,445 --> 01:03:46,697
I have something going.
I'm, I mean, I am just

1263
01:03:46,697 --> 01:03:50,827
completely consumed by something
until I've really gotten

1264
01:03:50,827 --> 01:03:55,121
to the bottom of it. And then
I'm really confident

1265
01:03:55,121 --> 01:03:58,333
in kind of my position.
And then I will go seek out

1266
01:03:58,333 --> 01:04:03,213
the most absolute savage
takedowns and criticisms

1267
01:04:03,213 --> 01:04:05,800
of what I've discovered
and try to really,

1268
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,469
really battle test
what I have figured out

1269
01:04:08,469 --> 01:04:11,264
against what I am,
what I can figure to be the most

1270
01:04:11,264 --> 01:04:13,974
intelligent criticism
on the topic. And then I'll

1271
01:04:13,974 --> 01:04:15,851
challenge myself with that
because I just enjoy

1272
01:04:15,851 --> 01:04:18,353
that uncomfortableness of it.
To me, it's it's,

1273
01:04:18,353 --> 01:04:20,106
it's, it's an it's
just I guess it's

1274
01:04:20,106 --> 01:04:22,650
kind of entertaining.
I just kind of enjoy that.

1275
01:04:22,650 --> 01:04:25,610
And I don't really find a problem
with like getting kind of

1276
01:04:26,945 --> 01:04:29,030
rug pulled with an
idea and discovering I've gone

1277
01:04:29,030 --> 01:04:33,286
down the wrong, wrong path.
And so I think that process

1278
01:04:33,286 --> 01:04:35,036
that I've developed for both
the show research

1279
01:04:35,036 --> 01:04:38,623
and for personal things and just
technology and Bitcoin

1280
01:04:38,623 --> 01:04:42,003
and all of that has given me
a fundamental

1281
01:04:42,003 --> 01:04:45,882
fundamental realisation
that people often just kind of go

1282
01:04:45,882 --> 01:04:48,342
with the herd
consensus on a topic.

1283
01:04:48,342 --> 01:04:51,971
And it's not always correct.
And sometimes they are.

1284
01:04:51,971 --> 01:04:55,391
Sometimes there is a thing
like crowd wisdom that is a

1285
01:04:55,391 --> 01:04:59,769
respectable phenomenon
and sometimes people just

1286
01:04:59,769 --> 01:05:02,063
didn't get it yet.
And not to wrap to kind of wrap

1287
01:05:02,063 --> 01:05:05,108
this up, I remember
about three months

1288
01:05:05,108 --> 01:05:09,697
before the iPod came out,
I worked at a bank and I went to

1289
01:05:09,697 --> 01:05:12,574
the investment centre
where we just got

1290
01:05:12,574 --> 01:05:16,119
to ask questions as employees,
you know, free advice. And I

1291
01:05:16,119 --> 01:05:17,704
walked in there and, you know,
I was doing some work

1292
01:05:17,704 --> 01:05:22,335
and I was there with my
buddy who I rented a

1293
01:05:22,335 --> 01:05:25,838
rented a place with,
and we said, Hey, man, to one of

1294
01:05:25,838 --> 01:05:28,048
the investment people, we're
both thinking about throwing in

1295
01:05:28,048 --> 01:05:30,342
about three grand
in the Apple stock.

1296
01:05:30,342 --> 01:05:33,219
You know, it's around
eight bucks right now.

1297
01:05:33,219 --> 01:05:34,972
And we think they're
going to go somewhere.

1298
01:05:34,972 --> 01:05:36,431
We think we think they're on
the precipice.

1299
01:05:36,431 --> 01:05:40,268
Steve Jobs is back now. So exit
I was looking pretty good.

1300
01:05:40,268 --> 01:05:43,271
We think they're going somewhere.
We're thinking about putting six

1301
01:05:43,271 --> 01:05:46,025
grand total into Apple stock.
Oh, don't do that.

1302
01:05:46,025 --> 01:05:49,152
No, no, don't buy any tech stock.
Don't invest in tech.

1303
01:05:49,152 --> 01:05:50,947
The last thing you want
do right now is invest in tech.

1304
01:05:50,947 --> 01:05:52,822
And this is,
you know, dot com boom

1305
01:05:52,822 --> 01:05:56,159
kind of echoes. And I'm like,
oh, really? Like, oh, yeah,

1306
01:05:56,159 --> 01:05:58,496
don't Apple. They're not going
to be around in a decade.

1307
01:05:58,496 --> 01:06:01,873
Don't invest in Apple like oh
I really have a feeling

1308
01:06:01,873 --> 01:06:05,378
like they're going somewhere. No.
Save your money. Save your money.

1309
01:06:05,378 --> 01:06:09,632
Go put that in GM man. Right.
Like we look back, this is like

1310
01:06:09,632 --> 01:06:12,217
a couple of months or so before
they launched the iPod

1311
01:06:12,217 --> 01:06:14,929
and they have been
on a rocket ship ever since.

1312
01:06:14,929 --> 01:06:17,389
That was I was obviously had seen
something there

1313
01:06:17,389 --> 01:06:19,474
that they didn't see.
And I realised that guy,

1314
01:06:19,474 --> 01:06:23,980
an expert, that guy had been
at that job for 30 years

1315
01:06:23,980 --> 01:06:26,273
and was considered
like one of the top

1316
01:06:26,273 --> 01:06:29,110
guys at the bank
and he missed that.

1317
01:06:29,110 --> 01:06:32,028
So that just was a life lesson
that I think is stuck with me

1318
01:06:32,028 --> 01:06:35,699
to trust my own research
and my intuition on stuff

1319
01:06:35,699 --> 01:06:39,829
and then kind of just
unfortunately stick to it

1320
01:06:39,829 --> 01:06:43,206
and then eat a crap sandwich
for a few years

1321
01:06:43,206 --> 01:06:44,708
until everybody else
fears it out. Like the

1322
01:06:44,708 --> 01:06:46,043
whole microphones.
That headphones thing on

1323
01:06:46,043 --> 01:06:52,090
YouTube is a total non-issue now.
And I say using. Oh yeah,

1324
01:06:52,090 --> 01:06:54,217
constant criticism,
constant criticism.

1325
01:06:54,217 --> 01:06:56,554
And it really got to us.
It really was like it.

1326
01:06:56,554 --> 01:06:59,389
So we tried like we tried
these countryman

1327
01:06:59,389 --> 01:07:02,518
microphones. Yeah.
And it just didn't sound as good.

1328
01:07:02,518 --> 01:07:04,686
And of course
the audio downloads, we're our

1329
01:07:04,686 --> 01:07:06,981
primary audience
and we're getting

1330
01:07:06,981 --> 01:07:08,858
all this criticism
from the video audience

1331
01:07:08,858 --> 01:07:10,900
on these microphones
and headphones and headphones.

1332
01:07:10,900 --> 01:07:12,820
And it's just
it's like we were on

1333
01:07:12,820 --> 01:07:14,405
to something there.
We could have stuck

1334
01:07:14,405 --> 01:07:16,699
with that path and we probably
would have developed that

1335
01:07:16,699 --> 01:07:18,659
into a decent
following on YouTube

1336
01:07:18,659 --> 01:07:20,119
if we've been doing it
for the last ten years.

1337
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,956
But you know, we didn't.
And so I don't always sometimes

1338
01:07:23,956 --> 01:07:24,956
I don't always
just stick with it.

1339
01:07:24,956 --> 01:07:27,126
But sometimes, you know, as
you get older,

1340
01:07:27,126 --> 01:07:28,585
you kind of learn well,
okay, this one,

1341
01:07:28,585 --> 01:07:30,045
I think I'm right. I'm just going
to play it out

1342
01:07:30,045 --> 01:07:31,380
and see how it goes.
And I feel like a little bit

1343
01:07:31,380 --> 01:07:35,592
with the boosts, it's kind of
opened me up for criticism

1344
01:07:35,592 --> 01:07:38,887
from my friends who can kind of
leverage it as a competitive

1345
01:07:38,887 --> 01:07:40,556
advantage. Well, you know,
we're not going to talk

1346
01:07:40,556 --> 01:07:42,766
about any of that
crypto crap over here. Yeah,

1347
01:07:42,766 --> 01:07:45,643
we don't talk crypto. You know,
if you want a Linux podcast,

1348
01:07:45,643 --> 01:07:47,771
it doesn't talk crypto.
You come over here, right?

1349
01:07:47,771 --> 01:07:51,025
And so they'll take a little bit
of short term gain to kind of

1350
01:07:51,025 --> 01:07:53,985
get the disaffected folks
who don't see the bigger picture,

1351
01:07:53,985 --> 01:07:56,697
but they're going to have
a long term loss because they're

1352
01:07:56,697 --> 01:07:59,617
basically enticing an audience
that is set in their ways

1353
01:07:59,617 --> 01:08:01,702
on a particular topic,
which means there's no room

1354
01:08:01,702 --> 01:08:03,829
for them to move ever
in the future. So if they did

1355
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:05,498
want to embrace
something like boos or some

1356
01:08:05,498 --> 01:08:07,875
other mechanism, they've now
just sort of self-selected

1357
01:08:07,875 --> 01:08:09,793
for an audience
that isn't here for it.

1358
01:08:09,793 --> 01:08:12,003
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And you got a. Great long.

1359
01:08:12,003 --> 01:08:14,590
Time to people as well,
you know, Is that is that

1360
01:08:14,590 --> 01:08:17,801
the kind of audience
that you really the ones who are

1361
01:08:17,801 --> 01:08:21,387
the vocal complaints? It's funny.
You want some pushback.

1362
01:08:21,387 --> 01:08:23,640
You want someone to be able
to tell you when your audio

1363
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,851
is not sounding so great
or if you're doing this

1364
01:08:26,851 --> 01:08:29,979
simple thing wrong or you're just
you're just acting like a jackass

1365
01:08:29,979 --> 01:08:33,734
or on this particular episode
or whatnot. But yeah, it's

1366
01:08:33,734 --> 01:08:36,569
you don't you. Want.
An audience who are

1367
01:08:36,569 --> 01:08:40,115
a hair trigger ready
to criticise it at any

1368
01:08:40,115 --> 01:08:42,827
little given thing? Yeah,
what you were

1369
01:08:42,827 --> 01:08:45,078
talking about before was really
reminiscent of the, you know,

1370
01:08:45,078 --> 01:08:49,166
letting your ideas die
so that you don't have to. But.

1371
01:08:49,166 --> 01:08:52,252
Kind of like the,
the idea battleground. You know,

1372
01:08:52,252 --> 01:08:56,506
if I jump over this,
you know, bridge or this gap

1373
01:08:56,506 --> 01:08:59,885
is this worth the,
you know, validation

1374
01:08:59,885 --> 01:09:03,847
I might get from friends versus
the risk of dying sort of deal?

1375
01:09:03,847 --> 01:09:05,265
Well, you'll never get
the validation

1376
01:09:05,265 --> 01:09:07,268
you take all the risk
and you'd never

1377
01:09:07,268 --> 01:09:08,894
get the validation
because by the time

1378
01:09:08,894 --> 01:09:12,189
everybody else catches up,
it's an obvious

1379
01:09:12,189 --> 01:09:14,399
foregone conclusion.
Yeah, of course.

1380
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:15,943
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
That's why. Everyone's

1381
01:09:15,943 --> 01:09:19,320
kind of forgotten about it.
What are some of the.

1382
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,783
The ideas that you, you did.
Get wrong. Out of interest.

1383
01:09:22,783 --> 01:09:24,743
Like what, What are some of the
and what would like

1384
01:09:24,743 --> 01:09:27,997
the identifying things
that you think. Were.

1385
01:09:27,997 --> 01:09:33,460
Related to that as to to approve
a wrong prediction. I mean at

1386
01:09:33,460 --> 01:09:35,921
the core of it I think it's
probably the shows

1387
01:09:35,921 --> 01:09:39,300
we did right like
the gaming stuff that just wasn't

1388
01:09:39,300 --> 01:09:41,844
looking back. It just doesn't
make sense. The audience

1389
01:09:41,844 --> 01:09:45,096
wasn't really there at Jupiter
Broadcasting.

1390
01:09:45,096 --> 01:09:48,809
For us to talk about niche games
is just silly

1391
01:09:48,809 --> 01:09:51,145
thinking about it now,
but it took me a while

1392
01:09:51,145 --> 01:09:54,105
to kind of come to that
kind of conclusion, that kind

1393
01:09:54,105 --> 01:10:01,238
of realisation. But as far as
like predictions go and bets,

1394
01:10:01,738 --> 01:10:04,490
I can't really think. Of nothing
to be your

1395
01:10:04,490 --> 01:10:09,121
or like died before you before
I got to that point you know,

1396
01:10:09,121 --> 01:10:11,789
which is I suppose what
that your processes is

1397
01:10:11,789 --> 01:10:15,085
probably the more important point
which is like you said, the

1398
01:10:15,085 --> 01:10:18,546
deep technical research
followed by seeking out things.

1399
01:10:18,546 --> 01:10:21,507
I try and do that as well.
I went through a a phase of just

1400
01:10:21,507 --> 01:10:24,929
looking at all the anti Bitcoin
anti crypto stuff

1401
01:10:24,929 --> 01:10:28,932
that I could find, and
the most of it was.

1402
01:10:29,891 --> 01:10:33,395
You know, you do. It's hard bit
where you're trying to

1403
01:10:33,395 --> 01:10:36,439
to give it weight even though you
you think it's wrong

1404
01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:39,944
at the start. It's this weird bit
where you're you're trying

1405
01:10:39,944 --> 01:10:43,655
to like mentally
battle yourself to to to open up.

1406
01:10:43,655 --> 01:10:47,826
Yeah. Your own head your own
ideas and. It's yeah it is

1407
01:10:47,826 --> 01:10:49,703
the uncomfortable. Part.
And then, and then.

1408
01:10:49,703 --> 01:10:52,456
You'll listen to like
Warren or Charlie

1409
01:10:52,456 --> 01:10:54,500
Munger on Bitcoin.
You're like, Tam,

1410
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:58,212
these guys have a so wrong.
Yeah, they're not doing

1411
01:10:58,212 --> 01:11:01,840
any of that work. You can tell
they're not doing any of that.

1412
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:09,430
Yeah, the the fascinating thing
about Bitcoin is I am still

1413
01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:14,979
very actively, very actively
looking for a criticism.

1414
01:11:14,979 --> 01:11:19,149
That is correct.
I think, you know,

1415
01:11:19,149 --> 01:11:23,529
even the energy criticism
gets it so, so wrong and loses

1416
01:11:23,529 --> 01:11:27,699
so much perspective and scale.
You know like

1417
01:11:27,699 --> 01:11:31,244
I think it's ridiculous
that we even talk about Bitcoin's

1418
01:11:31,244 --> 01:11:36,166
energy use, but nobody's
bringing up openai or all of

1419
01:11:36,166 --> 01:11:39,795
these different AI initiatives
that are powered by GPUs.

1420
01:11:39,795 --> 01:11:43,673
But here's just a anecdote.
We have this auto parts chain

1421
01:11:43,673 --> 01:11:46,135
called Advanced Auto Centre.
And, you know, they've got a

1422
01:11:46,135 --> 01:11:50,639
lot of stores, you know, but they
have 70 data centres

1423
01:11:50,639 --> 01:11:53,434
just to run their auto
parts store and they have

1424
01:11:53,434 --> 01:11:56,520
the most primitive auto parts
inventory system because we have

1425
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:58,896
one here in our town.
I've seen it and nobody talks

1426
01:11:58,896 --> 01:12:03,985
about the energy usage of that
which it just I just think

1427
01:12:03,985 --> 01:12:05,654
it's interesting
that so much emphasis

1428
01:12:05,654 --> 01:12:08,782
gets put on the Bitcoin
energy usage when what it's doing

1429
01:12:08,782 --> 01:12:15,497
is it's taking a real world
useful thing. Electricity that is

1430
01:12:15,497 --> 01:12:21,252
quantifiably valuable,
provably valuable, provably.

1431
01:12:21,252 --> 01:12:26,591
And it is converting that real
physical, provably valuable thing

1432
01:12:26,591 --> 01:12:31,596
into a provably valuable
digital asset that is unique

1433
01:12:31,596 --> 01:12:35,016
and scarce. It it's that energy
doesn't go away.

1434
01:12:35,016 --> 01:12:38,645
It's converted into
a unique Bitcoin. It's converted

1435
01:12:38,645 --> 01:12:42,524
into something that can be stored
digitally. And that is part

1436
01:12:42,524 --> 01:12:46,444
of what gives Bitcoin its value.
Unlike Etherium and other things

1437
01:12:46,444 --> 01:12:48,404
that are like staking based
and just kind of create

1438
01:12:48,404 --> 01:12:51,283
out of thin air
that have no value the fact

1439
01:12:51,283 --> 01:12:53,659
that you have to have physical
mining equipment.

1440
01:12:53,659 --> 01:12:57,706
And at this point it's a business
with staff and operational costs

1441
01:12:57,706 --> 01:13:00,542
and real estate costs
and electricity costs.

1442
01:13:00,542 --> 01:13:04,921
Those things are going to create
those individual unique satoshis.

1443
01:13:04,921 --> 01:13:09,885
So they inherently have value
because they use electricity it's

1444
01:13:09,885 --> 01:13:13,680
what we're converting electricity
into a scarce digital asset.

1445
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:15,431
It's the first time
we've ever been able to do this

1446
01:13:15,431 --> 01:13:17,350
and people haven't
even wrap their head around it.

1447
01:13:17,350 --> 01:13:21,729
And the energy use is
a good thing is a it's it's

1448
01:13:21,729 --> 01:13:24,399
one of the best
features about Bitcoin is this

1449
01:13:24,399 --> 01:13:27,235
electricity usage. And people
don't get it,

1450
01:13:27,235 --> 01:13:29,195
they just don't get it.
And the takedowns

1451
01:13:29,195 --> 01:13:31,948
don't even kind of like
wrap their head around it.

1452
01:13:31,948 --> 01:13:35,743
When you are
talking about Bitcoin's power use

1453
01:13:35,743 --> 01:13:37,829
and you got to talk about
the bank power use, like I worked

1454
01:13:37,829 --> 01:13:42,667
for a bank with 40 branches,
we had 120 servers

1455
01:13:42,667 --> 01:13:45,546
running 24 seven
to facilitate that,

1456
01:13:45,546 --> 01:13:48,006
and that's just one
tiny regional bank

1457
01:13:48,006 --> 01:13:51,385
that's, not like one tiny bank.
So I find all

1458
01:13:51,385 --> 01:13:53,470
these takedowns, like
when they usually are

1459
01:13:54,595 --> 01:13:57,807
going after things like that,
there's sort of like really kind

1460
01:13:57,807 --> 01:13:59,851
of focussed in on kind
of this narrative

1461
01:13:59,851 --> 01:14:02,813
that is pretty easy
to break apart.

1462
01:14:02,813 --> 01:14:05,064
And I think it's just because
if you only kind of come

1463
01:14:05,064 --> 01:14:07,067
at something from one angle,
like it's energy use and you

1464
01:14:07,067 --> 01:14:09,360
don't understand the entire thing
that they're trying

1465
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:12,238
to solve with Bitcoin, maybe it's
just kind of a trapping.

1466
01:14:12,238 --> 01:14:15,576
It, Get it? Yeah. And like
I was saying in the show

1467
01:14:15,576 --> 01:14:20,831
notes for Plan B.
There was a bit. In there

1468
01:14:20,831 --> 01:14:23,625
where you were talking about
the energy use back in 2013

1469
01:14:23,625 --> 01:14:26,795
and it was like, Oh my God, it's
people are worried about

1470
01:14:26,795 --> 01:14:30,131
how it's the it
it uses the equivalent of like

1471
01:14:30,131 --> 01:14:35,804
13,000 American homes or so.
It's just was. Such a tiny,

1472
01:14:35,804 --> 01:14:39,475
tiny bit compared to now.
And it's like, well, I mean

1473
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,936
people just like to
complain I guess. Yeah, well,

1474
01:14:43,936 --> 01:14:48,609
you know what? You know what else
the energy market is ludicrous

1475
01:14:48,609 --> 01:14:51,778
and it's not how you'd expect it
to operate. You wouldn't

1476
01:14:51,778 --> 01:14:55,657
you wouldn't think that you need
like all this generative capacity

1477
01:14:55,657 --> 01:14:57,868
that needs to be paid for
in order to have capacity

1478
01:14:57,868 --> 01:14:59,703
that's available.
When people want turn on their

1479
01:14:59,703 --> 01:15:00,912
air conditioners,
you'd think they could

1480
01:15:00,912 --> 01:15:02,997
just turn that up and down
when they need it.

1481
01:15:02,997 --> 01:15:05,626
You know, rev the motor
up, rev the motor down. You don't

1482
01:15:05,626 --> 01:15:09,546
really understand as a consumer
how any of this works

1483
01:15:09,546 --> 01:15:11,547
and how Bitcoin can be
used to incentivise

1484
01:15:11,547 --> 01:15:15,010
a renewable based grid
and how it can be used to capture

1485
01:15:15,010 --> 01:15:18,930
methane off gassing and convert
just methane were dumping

1486
01:15:18,930 --> 01:15:22,184
into the air 100%, dumping
one of the most serious

1487
01:15:22,184 --> 01:15:24,603
greenhouse gases out there,
which is dumping into the air.

1488
01:15:24,603 --> 01:15:26,438
And you can put
a little cap on that,

1489
01:15:26,438 --> 01:15:29,358
feed it into a generator
and you can mine Bitcoin

1490
01:15:29,358 --> 01:15:31,359
and you can take
that stranded energy

1491
01:15:31,359 --> 01:15:33,819
and actually produce something
that is valuable that can

1492
01:15:33,819 --> 01:15:35,447
then be digitally
transferred over

1493
01:15:35,447 --> 01:15:38,408
cellular network. Right.
It's just it's it's

1494
01:15:38,408 --> 01:15:42,203
such a good thing. And everybody
that wants electric cars

1495
01:15:42,203 --> 01:15:44,288
and everybody that wants
electric heat,

1496
01:15:44,288 --> 01:15:46,332
they don't even know it
right now, but they need

1497
01:15:46,332 --> 01:15:48,793
Bitcoin to get there. But they'll
figure it out. They need

1498
01:15:48,793 --> 01:15:51,546
Bitcoin mining specifically to
get there. But because it's

1499
01:15:51,546 --> 01:15:54,216
so complex, the topic of
the energy market and how we do

1500
01:15:54,216 --> 01:15:58,011
all that, it's so that if
people are just told,

1501
01:15:58,011 --> 01:15:59,345
Hey, this thing over here
that you don't think

1502
01:15:59,345 --> 01:16:00,930
is really doing anything, it's
not really worth

1503
01:16:00,930 --> 01:16:02,431
anything that you know,
you don't think

1504
01:16:02,431 --> 01:16:03,975
this cryptocurrency
is worth anything. You know,

1505
01:16:03,975 --> 01:16:05,769
they're using a bunch
of electricity

1506
01:16:05,769 --> 01:16:09,398
and people just panic and
they lose their mind. But yeah,

1507
01:16:09,398 --> 01:16:11,524
I guess that's human nature.
So just going back to your

1508
01:16:11,524 --> 01:16:14,735
original question, just kind of
understanding that and just

1509
01:16:14,735 --> 01:16:17,197
having the fortitude
to be like a slow

1510
01:16:17,197 --> 01:16:21,284
you're all slow. You roll,
I think helps sort of

1511
01:16:22,452 --> 01:16:24,954
wait out those headwinds when
you make a prediction

1512
01:16:24,954 --> 01:16:27,248
and you just then just have
to wait for it to play out.

1513
01:16:27,248 --> 01:16:30,418
Yeah. Yeah. And what do you think
it is that the average person

1514
01:16:30,418 --> 01:16:32,503
misses about these things?
Like because

1515
01:16:32,503 --> 01:16:34,756
I wondered, you know,
if I'm this wrong.

1516
01:16:34,756 --> 01:16:39,011
About look, I mean I'm.
Probably not the best

1517
01:16:39,011 --> 01:16:40,970
example for this
because I really try

1518
01:16:40,970 --> 01:16:44,890
and not criticise, you know,
especially like. Low.

1519
01:16:44,890 --> 01:16:47,894
Value criticism where I talk
shit on the Internet

1520
01:16:47,894 --> 01:16:52,149
or anything like that.
That's not really up my alley.

1521
01:16:52,149 --> 01:16:55,985
But, but I wonder how much what,
what you know what.

1522
01:16:55,985 --> 01:16:58,697
What's something where
I'm completely wrong on

1523
01:16:58,697 --> 01:17:02,408
and in, you know,
ten, ten, 15 years time

1524
01:17:02,408 --> 01:17:06,203
look back and just like
that was so it was so obvious how

1525
01:17:06,203 --> 01:17:10,082
how did I miss that.
And is what do you.

1526
01:17:10,082 --> 01:17:13,712
Think categorises that kind of
the missing of that mindset

1527
01:17:13,712 --> 01:17:17,006
that maybe the the average person
might might have

1528
01:17:17,006 --> 01:17:19,885
or something like that? Is it
is that that close mindedness?

1529
01:17:19,885 --> 01:17:22,720
Is that like the not
doing the work is the.

1530
01:17:24,472 --> 01:17:26,891
I don't know. Just straight up
like you know IQ.

1531
01:17:26,891 --> 01:17:31,313
Or well not not. Being too
willing to follow the trends

1532
01:17:31,313 --> 01:17:35,609
input sources you're. Obviously
could be all of those things.

1533
01:17:35,609 --> 01:17:39,654
I think maybe the biggest factor
if we were to keep it on Bitcoin

1534
01:17:39,654 --> 01:17:45,786
or podcasts even, is it was the
same problem. People didn't

1535
01:17:45,786 --> 01:17:47,953
really understand
why they needed it.

1536
01:17:47,953 --> 01:17:50,039
Why don't need a podcast?
I got radio right,

1537
01:17:50,039 --> 01:17:52,708
I got I got CDs. Why don't you
do podcast and know,

1538
01:17:52,708 --> 01:17:54,877
listen to some guy, Why don't
why do I need bitcoin?

1539
01:17:54,877 --> 01:17:57,130
I got a debit card,
I got digital money.

1540
01:17:57,130 --> 01:17:59,591
I don't ever use cash.
Why do I pay with my phone?

1541
01:17:59,591 --> 01:18:03,345
Why do I need it? Why do I need
a cryptocurrency? It's

1542
01:18:03,345 --> 01:18:06,430
for lack of a better term.
It's because they're coming

1543
01:18:06,430 --> 01:18:10,560
from a position of privilege,
the existing system,

1544
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:13,396
whatever it might be. Maybe it's
media system, maybe it's

1545
01:18:13,396 --> 01:18:15,815
financial system.
It works for them.

1546
01:18:15,815 --> 01:18:17,693
They haven't really
had any problems. They're doing

1547
01:18:17,693 --> 01:18:20,529
all right. Things
maybe not going great, but that's

1548
01:18:20,529 --> 01:18:24,073
how it's always been. You know,
they've always lived in a society

1549
01:18:24,073 --> 01:18:28,244
where eight people in a room
decide the price of money

1550
01:18:28,244 --> 01:18:30,538
all around the world.
But that's always been

1551
01:18:30,538 --> 01:18:33,500
the way it has for everybody.
We've always lived in a world

1552
01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:36,795
where a Federal Reserve
manipulates the dollar,

1553
01:18:36,795 --> 01:18:39,840
and then every country
in the West at least

1554
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,509
is impacted by that.
And that's just the way it's been

1555
01:18:42,509 --> 01:18:44,886
in the central bankers
smooth it out and we've never

1556
01:18:44,886 --> 01:18:46,470
really thought
anything differently.

1557
01:18:46,470 --> 01:18:48,849
Your debit card works,
you're getting paid,

1558
01:18:48,849 --> 01:18:51,225
your bills are getting paid,
you're buying food.

1559
01:18:51,225 --> 01:18:53,979
What's the problem? Right.
The problem is, of course, people

1560
01:18:53,979 --> 01:18:56,021
don't actually realise
that it's debasing that inflation

1561
01:18:56,021 --> 01:18:59,067
is actually a killer, all these
things, right? And that it's

1562
01:18:59,067 --> 01:19:02,237
fiat money that's printed
at Infinite that's created by

1563
01:19:02,237 --> 01:19:04,197
the issuance of debt,
which means there isn't

1564
01:19:04,197 --> 01:19:05,990
actually enough dollars
to pay back all the debt

1565
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:08,076
in existence because you
create dollars through debt.

1566
01:19:08,076 --> 01:19:09,661
So how do you pay back something
when you're creating

1567
01:19:09,661 --> 01:19:12,413
the dollars like? All of that
people don't realise because it's

1568
01:19:12,413 --> 01:19:16,542
all working well,
It has worked it

1569
01:19:16,542 --> 01:19:19,880
for the last few years,
especially since COVID. I think

1570
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:21,465
the cracks are starting
to show more and more,

1571
01:19:21,465 --> 01:19:24,216
at least here in the States.
I don't know about you guys, but

1572
01:19:24,216 --> 01:19:27,804
like if you want to pull out two
or $3,000 of cash

1573
01:19:27,804 --> 01:19:30,431
or even a couple hundred dollars
of cash, you're going

1574
01:19:30,431 --> 01:19:31,850
to get a whole
litany of questions. What are you

1575
01:19:31,850 --> 01:19:33,935
planning to do with that, sir?
Why do you need

1576
01:19:33,935 --> 01:19:36,854
cash on hand for that?
You know, if you

1577
01:19:36,854 --> 01:19:39,815
if you do $10,000 or more
that gets tracked and reported

1578
01:19:39,815 --> 01:19:42,610
to the federal government
and they're getting

1579
01:19:42,610 --> 01:19:44,154
really serious
about locking down.

1580
01:19:44,154 --> 01:19:46,405
So it's starting not to work.
Some people, immigrants

1581
01:19:46,405 --> 01:19:49,784
and others also can't be banked.
You know, when Brandt visits

1582
01:19:49,784 --> 01:19:52,453
from Canada, he can't go open up
a banking account down here

1583
01:19:52,453 --> 01:19:55,247
and have some local cash
to to buy things. And you just

1584
01:19:55,247 --> 01:19:57,667
can't do that. Right.
So there's all these things

1585
01:19:57,667 --> 01:20:00,377
that make the financial system
a little less acceptable

1586
01:20:00,377 --> 01:20:02,506
for each one of us over time
and depend on where you're

1587
01:20:02,506 --> 01:20:04,507
living in the world
is very unacceptable. Yeah.

1588
01:20:04,507 --> 01:20:08,552
And if you're in the West,
you know, it's not so bad yet.

1589
01:20:08,552 --> 01:20:11,139
Getting. But you're kind of like
the frog in the boiling pot.

1590
01:20:11,139 --> 01:20:13,182
You don't even realise
what's going on.

1591
01:20:13,182 --> 01:20:15,310
So why not just keep using it?
It's fine, you know,

1592
01:20:15,310 --> 01:20:18,688
things are costing more, but,
you know, it's the cost of.

1593
01:20:18,688 --> 01:20:21,649
The war in Ukraine.
So what else can I do? Right?

1594
01:20:21,649 --> 01:20:23,568
And they don't
even think about like

1595
01:20:23,568 --> 01:20:25,444
they're not trained.
They're not trained

1596
01:20:25,444 --> 01:20:27,988
by the education system
to think about hard assets

1597
01:20:27,988 --> 01:20:31,076
and, to think about
real estate and gold

1598
01:20:31,076 --> 01:20:34,787
and what makes something a scarce
hard asset versus

1599
01:20:34,787 --> 01:20:37,373
what makes something
crap fiat money.

1600
01:20:37,373 --> 01:20:40,085
None of that's taught course.
Rich people teach that

1601
01:20:40,085 --> 01:20:41,461
to their children and teach them
the difference

1602
01:20:41,461 --> 01:20:44,213
between hard assets
and crap money and all of that.

1603
01:20:44,213 --> 01:20:46,550
But I don't think
most people get taught

1604
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:49,802
any of that kind of stuff.
Most People, their biggest asset

1605
01:20:49,802 --> 01:20:53,222
that they own is
likely their home, and that's

1606
01:20:53,222 --> 01:20:54,850
kind of the middle
class lifestyle here,

1607
01:20:54,850 --> 01:20:56,976
and that's getting
harder and harder to do.

1608
01:20:56,976 --> 01:20:59,229
And so I think for people
that are trying to find

1609
01:20:59,229 --> 01:21:01,856
a way to build wealth
that don't have real estate,

1610
01:21:01,856 --> 01:21:03,817
then they start looking for
an alternative and they start

1611
01:21:03,817 --> 01:21:05,150
considering something else.
For people that are

1612
01:21:05,150 --> 01:21:06,987
content creators
that have been looking for a peer

1613
01:21:06,987 --> 01:21:09,029
to peer digital system
to send value that is

1614
01:21:09,029 --> 01:21:11,323
completely uncontrolled
by anyone corporation,

1615
01:21:11,323 --> 01:21:14,953
we're a little more inclined
to consider it. We have a crack

1616
01:21:14,953 --> 01:21:18,289
in that privilege. We have
some reason to look outside

1617
01:21:18,289 --> 01:21:22,961
the system. I got into Bitcoin
14 years ago practically

1618
01:21:22,961 --> 01:21:26,715
because I thought
networked computing was one of

1619
01:21:26,715 --> 01:21:28,300
the biggest innovations
The internet

1620
01:21:28,300 --> 01:21:31,094
would bring us offline
network computing, and I thought

1621
01:21:31,094 --> 01:21:34,471
the blockchain was a great way
to organise some of that work

1622
01:21:34,471 --> 01:21:36,765
and that was initially
what got me into Bitcoin.

1623
01:21:36,765 --> 01:21:39,435
But then what brought me
back into it, why we restarted,

1624
01:21:39,435 --> 01:21:40,811
why we started
talking about Bitcoin

1625
01:21:40,811 --> 01:21:43,648
more on the shows and why I got
in with Bitcoin dead pot

1626
01:21:43,648 --> 01:21:47,068
is because I looked at it
from an economic.

1627
01:21:47,068 --> 01:21:50,363
I started to learn
about economics the way

1628
01:21:50,363 --> 01:21:53,449
the Federal Reserve operates,
the way money is issued,

1629
01:21:53,449 --> 01:21:57,037
what makes something a hard asset
and that that really is

1630
01:21:57,037 --> 01:21:59,204
what kind of made me
fully committed.

1631
01:21:59,204 --> 01:22:02,542
And so I think it was that crack
that may be like,

1632
01:22:02,542 --> 01:22:04,210
What's going on here?
What's going on with the

1633
01:22:04,210 --> 01:22:06,587
economy, Right? Why isn't this
system working

1634
01:22:06,587 --> 01:22:09,256
that I actually spent the time
to really learn the economics

1635
01:22:09,256 --> 01:22:11,842
of it all? But if everything
had been working great, you know,

1636
01:22:11,842 --> 01:22:14,762
if I was making a million bucks
a year, feeling really good,

1637
01:22:14,762 --> 01:22:17,932
paying all my bills as heck,
I don't know if I would have been

1638
01:22:17,932 --> 01:22:20,935
as inclined. I would have said,
you know, the advertising model

1639
01:22:20,935 --> 01:22:24,146
is working great. Everybody's
living comfortable. The kids are

1640
01:22:24,146 --> 01:22:27,984
getting everything they want.
Why bother? Yeah. It says that

1641
01:22:27,984 --> 01:22:30,153
those pain points
that that might be the one of the

1642
01:22:30,153 --> 01:22:35,533
biggest things actually like.
Leaning in to. To to the pain.

1643
01:22:35,533 --> 01:22:39,578
Or the problem of I I've.
Kind of been on

1644
01:22:39,578 --> 01:22:41,706
a very similar journey for the
like the last two years

1645
01:22:41,706 --> 01:22:44,917
of learning about, you know,
inflation and economics and.

1646
01:22:46,293 --> 01:22:51,256
I really. Kind of wish I hadn't.
I'm not I'm not sure I'm. Because

1647
01:22:51,256 --> 01:22:55,386
because a lot of it is just that.
Baffling like what, you know I,

1648
01:22:55,386 --> 01:23:02,351
I remember my dad like.
Amazing amazing person has done

1649
01:23:02,351 --> 01:23:05,145
a lot of successful things
in life. And I'm

1650
01:23:05,145 --> 01:23:07,815
so glad. I've had him.
But he was raised in like a

1651
01:23:07,815 --> 01:23:11,319
Keynesian worldview. And I
remember just

1652
01:23:11,319 --> 01:23:13,904
talking to him about, you know,
what is inflation like.

1653
01:23:13,904 --> 01:23:16,157
How how can. The government
print money?

1654
01:23:16,157 --> 01:23:18,618
And I was just trying
to like get to the.

1655
01:23:18,618 --> 01:23:22,663
Heart of of, you know.
If they just print money,

1656
01:23:22,663 --> 01:23:25,750
how is that not diluting.
It All the other money,

1657
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:27,918
that's how. Do they get to
print something for free

1658
01:23:27,918 --> 01:23:29,712
that I have to work
my butt off to earn?

1659
01:23:29,712 --> 01:23:31,965
Yeah, it wasn't fair.
And we were. Debating this

1660
01:23:31,965 --> 01:23:35,092
kind of fundamental concepts
because because he was saying,

1661
01:23:35,092 --> 01:23:36,677
you know, it kind of gets back
into the government

1662
01:23:36,677 --> 01:23:39,264
and gets destroyed.
I'm like, Well, how does it

1663
01:23:39,264 --> 01:23:43,350
get destroyed? What where,
where does the destroying,

1664
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:47,564
you know. What is debt?
How how can every.

1665
01:23:47,564 --> 01:23:51,734
Country in the world be in debt?
And if we all squared off

1666
01:23:51,734 --> 01:23:56,197
in our money to hoo hoo hoo,
who does it all equal out

1667
01:23:56,197 --> 01:24:01,036
or does it. It's it's that
that that kind of just you know,

1668
01:24:01,036 --> 01:24:03,496
you're like it's almost like
you're battling

1669
01:24:03,496 --> 01:24:06,791
against the universe or something
because it's it's kind of crap

1670
01:24:06,791 --> 01:24:09,252
that humans have created
and it's not real.

1671
01:24:09,252 --> 01:24:10,878
And so it's it's.
A micro universe.

1672
01:24:10,878 --> 01:24:16,301
We, we have created it. Yeah.
It's and there is a mathematical

1673
01:24:16,301 --> 01:24:20,137
inevitability to the end result.
And that is one

1674
01:24:20,137 --> 01:24:22,599
of the heaviest things
that I have to deal

1675
01:24:22,599 --> 01:24:24,809
with from time to time.
The Bitcoin Dad and I,

1676
01:24:24,809 --> 01:24:27,228
we sit down before the show often
and we'll have an hour or two

1677
01:24:27,228 --> 01:24:29,814
long conversation where I'm just
working out

1678
01:24:29,814 --> 01:24:32,942
like the inevitability
of all of this and it

1679
01:24:32,942 --> 01:24:37,447
heavy stuff. It's massive, right?
Because we have, especially here

1680
01:24:37,447 --> 01:24:41,076
in the States, we have crossed
a point of no return

1681
01:24:41,076 --> 01:24:43,368
with our debt and our
our governance structure

1682
01:24:43,368 --> 01:24:46,206
and all of it. It's just
the the math of it

1683
01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:51,168
is an inevitability that I find
almost overwhelming sometimes.

1684
01:24:51,168 --> 01:24:54,671
And I of I grok what you mean
where I almost wish

1685
01:24:54,671 --> 01:24:58,217
I didn't understand it,
except for the fact that

1686
01:24:58,217 --> 01:25:00,136
in the past,
like in the 2008 crash,

1687
01:25:00,136 --> 01:25:03,597
when I wasn't paying attention,
I got really screwed. And I feel

1688
01:25:03,597 --> 01:25:06,600
like the best way
to protect myself or the business

1689
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:09,354
and protect my family
and sort of position

1690
01:25:09,354 --> 01:25:13,524
ourselves to weather it is to be
aware of it, where ultimately

1691
01:25:13,524 --> 01:25:17,362
I am optimistic. Longer term,
I am, you know, ten,

1692
01:25:17,362 --> 01:25:19,404
ten or so years
down the road, 2030

1693
01:25:19,404 --> 01:25:23,326
something early, 2013.
I'm optimistic about things

1694
01:25:23,326 --> 01:25:27,037
turning around, but I am not.
Before that. I'm pessimistic

1695
01:25:27,037 --> 01:25:30,250
about probably the next decade.
Yeah, in a major way. In a way

1696
01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,502
I've never been before.
And in part it's been enabled.

1697
01:25:32,502 --> 01:25:35,921
This pessimism has been enabled
because of the

1698
01:25:35,921 --> 01:25:38,298
clear understanding
I have of how it's all working.

1699
01:25:38,298 --> 01:25:41,511
But, you know, when you discover
how it all works and that makes

1700
01:25:41,511 --> 01:25:45,681
you more upset,
that's a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah.

1701
01:25:45,681 --> 01:25:49,935
And it's I. Used to have this
in the mine mining as in coal

1702
01:25:49,935 --> 01:25:52,855
mining industry
when I worked in it. And

1703
01:25:53,856 --> 01:25:57,569
that that was just.
So I did the logistics

1704
01:25:57,569 --> 01:26:00,445
that was kind of like my,
my day job as a mining engineer

1705
01:26:00,445 --> 01:26:03,867
and you know, basically
all my time was spent

1706
01:26:03,867 --> 01:26:06,994
on a spreadsheet trying to like,
you know, we're getting this coal

1707
01:26:06,994 --> 01:26:09,037
out of this portion here.
That means this pit needs

1708
01:26:09,037 --> 01:26:13,292
to be dug up at this part time,
got these commitments

1709
01:26:13,292 --> 01:26:16,753
via rail and stuff.
And it was just always

1710
01:26:16,753 --> 01:26:20,257
there would be these situations
where you would

1711
01:26:20,257 --> 01:26:22,385
literally dig, you're
digging holes, you're

1712
01:26:22,385 --> 01:26:26,389
literally digging this hole
that you can't get out of

1713
01:26:26,389 --> 01:26:29,850
and you end up having to do some
really stupid shit like back

1714
01:26:29,850 --> 01:26:34,479
this your own coal to mix it
with more coal that you have

1715
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:38,318
to satisfy this customer.
And it's. Just it's just.

1716
01:26:38,318 --> 01:26:43,113
So. Stupid. Like, how did.
We get to, you. Know what, what.

1717
01:26:43,113 --> 01:26:45,574
And this would happen,
you know, all the time.

1718
01:26:45,574 --> 01:26:48,493
It's like a periodic thing,
maybe once a year or once

1719
01:26:48,493 --> 01:26:52,497
every six months or something.
And it was just this in

1720
01:26:52,497 --> 01:26:55,292
almost inevitable thing.
You don't even realise

1721
01:26:55,292 --> 01:26:58,962
you kind of going down this path
until like then. You know.

1722
01:26:58,962 --> 01:27:00,215
That pit over
there is starting to

1723
01:27:00,215 --> 01:27:03,176
fill up with water.
We kind of need that coal soon.

1724
01:27:03,176 --> 01:27:10,307
To be. Fine. Like. Yeah, it was.
Yeah. Not the funnest aspect of,

1725
01:27:10,307 --> 01:27:13,019
of humanity of, of Yeah.
Trying to figure out

1726
01:27:13,019 --> 01:27:16,605
it's not crazy crap we do.
It's not us at our best, is it?

1727
01:27:16,605 --> 01:27:20,318
And it seems to be worse
when we get into large groups.

1728
01:27:20,318 --> 01:27:21,694
And I think one of
the interesting things

1729
01:27:21,694 --> 01:27:25,864
is a lot of businesses
and products will survive, right.

1730
01:27:25,864 --> 01:27:29,661
Like Apple internally is a mess,
but they still manage to ship

1731
01:27:29,661 --> 01:27:33,747
iPhones on a regular schedule.
So some companies

1732
01:27:33,747 --> 01:27:36,626
seem to figure out how to still
harness it. Google,

1733
01:27:36,626 --> 01:27:38,211
I think, doesn't do
such a great job

1734
01:27:38,211 --> 01:27:41,546
as an example, but
they still managed to survive

1735
01:27:41,546 --> 01:27:44,466
When I was part
of another company trying to

1736
01:27:44,466 --> 01:27:49,012
make podcasts. It was a constant
battle. Keep focus on the shows.

1737
01:27:50,139 --> 01:27:53,350
A larger organisation just
has so many other goals

1738
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:57,063
and things and priorities
and internal machinations

1739
01:27:57,063 --> 01:28:00,858
that aren't about the product.
There are so many people involved

1740
01:28:00,858 --> 01:28:02,568
that don't even know
the product, don't know

1741
01:28:02,568 --> 01:28:05,529
the customer, don't do anything
that directly relates

1742
01:28:05,529 --> 01:28:09,283
to making the product directly.
And when you add more and more of

1743
01:28:09,283 --> 01:28:12,744
those people, I think some types
of businesses and products

1744
01:28:12,744 --> 01:28:15,372
can survive that and I think
others can't. And I think

1745
01:28:15,372 --> 01:28:17,875
podcasts and content
creation of this type,

1746
01:28:17,875 --> 01:28:20,502
the independent media type,
is an example of the kind

1747
01:28:20,502 --> 01:28:23,547
that can't survive, that
the shows suffer

1748
01:28:23,547 --> 01:28:27,551
immediately, they start
and it was a huge battle, kind of

1749
01:28:27,551 --> 01:28:30,430
I felt like I was dragging this
weight behind me

1750
01:28:30,430 --> 01:28:32,849
to go do the shows, even though
we were trying to run harder

1751
01:28:32,849 --> 01:28:37,770
than ever. And it's just
human nature suspect. And so what

1752
01:28:37,770 --> 01:28:40,648
I kind of took away from that was
for independent media,

1753
01:28:40,648 --> 01:28:42,899
like podcasts aren't know
about large video productions

1754
01:28:42,899 --> 01:28:47,779
or television shows or radio
programs, but. Yeah. Yeah but for

1755
01:28:47,779 --> 01:28:51,367
but for, for independent podcast
and content creation,

1756
01:28:51,367 --> 01:28:53,869
I think it's lean and mean.
I think it's a small

1757
01:28:53,869 --> 01:28:56,288
team at best. You know
a family business,

1758
01:28:56,288 --> 01:28:58,582
that kind of thing.
I think that's what works best

1759
01:28:58,582 --> 01:29:03,628
because everybody is focussed
on the product. You cannot

1760
01:29:03,628 --> 01:29:06,631
afford to do it any other way
if you're if you're running lean

1761
01:29:06,631 --> 01:29:09,469
and mean, everyone that's there,
they have something that

1762
01:29:09,469 --> 01:29:11,762
impacts the product,
which in this case

1763
01:29:11,762 --> 01:29:15,140
would be the podcasts.
And I think value for value

1764
01:29:15,140 --> 01:29:17,601
also kind encourages
that kind of lean

1765
01:29:17,601 --> 01:29:20,979
and mean operation.
And with the splits

1766
01:29:20,979 --> 01:29:23,315
and everything,
it's all out there in the open.

1767
01:29:23,315 --> 01:29:25,859
So you know exactly how much
my co-hosts are making,

1768
01:29:25,859 --> 01:29:27,194
you know, how much I'm making.
You know, what

1769
01:29:27,194 --> 01:29:29,447
the network take is,
you know how much we're giving

1770
01:29:29,447 --> 01:29:31,698
to the index, to pod viewers,
to Fountain FM.

1771
01:29:31,698 --> 01:29:34,202
It's all out there
in the RSS feed,

1772
01:29:34,202 --> 01:29:36,496
completely transparent,
which is another thing

1773
01:29:36,496 --> 01:29:39,164
all these businesses don't have
is they're completely opaque

1774
01:29:39,164 --> 01:29:42,752
from us and with value for value,
especially if you put the amounts

1775
01:29:42,752 --> 01:29:47,256
in the show like we do, it is
completely transparent

1776
01:29:47,256 --> 01:29:52,302
and it just feels like a more
sustainable model that won't have

1777
01:29:52,302 --> 01:29:57,516
that kind of entropy that
the other models

1778
01:29:57,516 --> 01:29:59,894
have where you have all this
horizontal growth and all these

1779
01:29:59,894 --> 01:30:01,895
people get added that aren't
related to the product

1780
01:30:01,895 --> 01:30:03,523
and all this opaqueness
about the money.

1781
01:30:03,523 --> 01:30:06,650
And and, you know,
when you're kind of a business

1782
01:30:06,650 --> 01:30:09,069
like that, then you're
always looking for new ways

1783
01:30:09,069 --> 01:30:10,947
to bring in a lot more money.
You're always looking

1784
01:30:10,947 --> 01:30:13,073
for bigger, bigger
and bigger money. So you're

1785
01:30:13,073 --> 01:30:16,243
also looking for these
huge contracts and stuff. And

1786
01:30:16,243 --> 01:30:20,789
I think that it makes for,
you know, like the kind of stuff

1787
01:30:20,789 --> 01:30:22,750
the New York Times or NPR
makes, which is fine.

1788
01:30:22,750 --> 01:30:24,877
There's there's definitely an
audience for it, but it's

1789
01:30:24,877 --> 01:30:28,463
it's not independent,
it's not raw. It's not like

1790
01:30:28,463 --> 01:30:33,010
the spirit of the Internet.
Yeah, Yeah. I after working

1791
01:30:33,010 --> 01:30:35,470
in a company for a while
and look, Rio Tinto,

1792
01:30:35,470 --> 01:30:38,140
where I worked, I was probably
one of the better

1793
01:30:38,140 --> 01:30:42,019
workplaces, you know,
internal politics drama

1794
01:30:42,019 --> 01:30:45,939
was to a minimum.
It was kind of like

1795
01:30:45,939 --> 01:30:48,650
it was good in a way because
no one wanted to be there.

1796
01:30:48,650 --> 01:30:52,697
So everyone was was kind of like
slightly miserable. So we're

1797
01:30:52,697 --> 01:30:58,327
all on the same page.
Equal levels. Yeah, Yeah. I mean.

1798
01:30:58,327 --> 01:31:00,371
No one really wants
to be out of the mine site.

1799
01:31:00,371 --> 01:31:03,748
Like, away from the family.
Away from. Yeah. Yeah. So it's,

1800
01:31:03,748 --> 01:31:07,086
it's just it's not the healthiest
of environments

1801
01:31:07,086 --> 01:31:09,463
and that's why you see
all the rampant drug

1802
01:31:09,463 --> 01:31:13,134
use and depression,
suicide that happens in the fly

1803
01:31:13,134 --> 01:31:15,136
in, fly out
communities and whatnot

1804
01:31:15,136 --> 01:31:20,432
here in Australia and I assume
in other areas of the world.

1805
01:31:20,432 --> 01:31:23,269
But yeah, yeah, that,
that I think just.

1806
01:31:23,269 --> 01:31:27,523
Just meagre experience
I had there of dealing. With.

1807
01:31:27,523 --> 01:31:31,694
Like you said, people who aren't
connected to the final product

1808
01:31:31,694 --> 01:31:35,823
or where it is that kind of
horizontal out.

1809
01:31:35,823 --> 01:31:40,953
Out outgrowing has. Maybe they've
never dug. You ever touched

1810
01:31:40,953 --> 01:31:43,247
the product. Yeah. Yeah.
Or in my case they've never

1811
01:31:43,247 --> 01:31:45,666
made a podcast or whatever.
Yeah, I just,

1812
01:31:45,666 --> 01:31:48,336
I just don't want to,
I don't want to deal with like,

1813
01:31:48,336 --> 01:31:52,047
groups of people like that.
I think that's. Yeah.

1814
01:31:52,047 --> 01:31:55,426
I think there's a lot
really weird stuff that happens

1815
01:31:55,426 --> 01:31:58,512
when just too many humans
get together. It's just,

1816
01:31:58,512 --> 01:32:02,265
it's better to, to have a
slightly less official.

1817
01:32:03,225 --> 01:32:05,060
You're talking. About the,
I suppose like the

1818
01:32:05,060 --> 01:32:07,313
Internet before
and the impact that.

1819
01:32:07,313 --> 01:32:10,899
That. Has had.
And one of the things I see with

1820
01:32:10,899 --> 01:32:13,735
Bitcoin and I
and the next thing is

1821
01:32:13,735 --> 01:32:16,905
that it's going to be
comparable to the Internet.

1822
01:32:16,905 --> 01:32:21,953
And so when I grew up,
I was born in 1992 and so

1823
01:32:21,953 --> 01:32:25,331
from basically from what
I can remember, I kind of had it,

1824
01:32:25,331 --> 01:32:28,417
I had access to Google
and just being able to

1825
01:32:28,417 --> 01:32:33,005
type stuff in and having access
to a computer. Are these

1826
01:32:33,005 --> 01:32:36,007
things are actually comparable?
Well, they have.

1827
01:32:36,007 --> 01:32:40,429
The same effects. You think that
the Internet has had.

1828
01:32:40,930 --> 01:32:42,681
But it seems silly
because they all

1829
01:32:42,681 --> 01:32:45,560
require the Internet.
So how can you say they've had

1830
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:48,938
the same impact if they all
run on TCP IP? Like they wouldn't

1831
01:32:48,938 --> 01:32:52,024
even exist without the internet.
So I'm not sure

1832
01:32:52,024 --> 01:32:55,610
that's a hard one. You know,
my experience of the internet

1833
01:32:55,610 --> 01:32:59,198
was slow and tedious
and it took forever

1834
01:32:59,198 --> 01:33:03,911
to roll out, right? My My
my first few years were

1835
01:33:03,911 --> 01:33:09,041
bibs and modems. It was
remarkable how slow it was.

1836
01:33:09,041 --> 01:33:14,588
I can't even I can't even believe
I had, you know, 96 bad modem,

1837
01:33:14,588 --> 01:33:17,882
9.6 kilobytes a second
maybe is what I got

1838
01:33:17,882 --> 01:33:21,429
nine kilobytes a second and later
when I got a 14 for modem,

1839
01:33:21,429 --> 01:33:23,805
I could do 14 kilobytes a second.
But of course it would never

1840
01:33:23,805 --> 01:33:26,975
actually do that. So I'd
really get my nine kilobits

1841
01:33:26,975 --> 01:33:28,519
I should have been
getting with my 9600.

1842
01:33:28,519 --> 01:33:31,521
But I mean, that's what we're
talking about now. Websites are

1843
01:33:31,521 --> 01:33:35,318
meant multiple megabytes.
And so my when people

1844
01:33:35,318 --> 01:33:36,777
say it's going to be
like the Internet, I think so

1845
01:33:36,777 --> 01:33:39,863
you mean it's going to take
20 years before

1846
01:33:39,863 --> 01:33:44,284
normies start using it like that?
What you mean? Yes. Yeah.

1847
01:33:44,284 --> 01:33:50,498
I remember still vividly
the moment I was out

1848
01:33:50,498 --> 01:33:53,293
at a restaurant, like at a booth
at like a Denny's type thing.

1849
01:33:53,293 --> 01:33:56,631
And I remember
the booth next to us,

1850
01:33:56,631 --> 01:34:00,467
somebody said a web
URL or some tech term, and

1851
01:34:00,467 --> 01:34:04,180
I had never heard another human
use a tech term

1852
01:34:04,180 --> 01:34:07,350
out in public before.
And I was like, Oh my God,

1853
01:34:07,350 --> 01:34:09,935
it's happening
I remember the moment

1854
01:34:09,935 --> 01:34:12,688
the Internet's happening,
it's coming in it. Everybody's

1855
01:34:12,688 --> 01:34:18,027
going to be aware of it over God.
And it just still took forever.

1856
01:34:18,027 --> 01:34:20,654
And we still really don't use
it as well as we could.

1857
01:34:20,654 --> 01:34:22,989
So, so I don't know.
I'm a little sceptical

1858
01:34:22,989 --> 01:34:26,493
if anything has the potential,
it would be Bitcoin, right?

1859
01:34:26,493 --> 01:34:32,082
Because what you're talking
is taking gold and putting it

1860
01:34:32,082 --> 01:34:35,336
over email. I mean, if you just
look at Bitcoin that way,

1861
01:34:35,336 --> 01:34:39,673
just if it just did that,
the just let you take and send it

1862
01:34:39,673 --> 01:34:42,217
to somebody electronically
and they could receive the gold

1863
01:34:42,217 --> 01:34:47,931
securely and 100% verifiably,
that would be

1864
01:34:47,931 --> 01:34:52,603
a massive innovation. Right.
But Bitcoin is also

1865
01:34:52,603 --> 01:34:55,480
a settlement network.
It is potentially

1866
01:34:55,480 --> 01:34:58,650
a contract network,
It is a payments network is

1867
01:34:58,650 --> 01:35:02,570
a transaction network. Right.
So it's all these other things,

1868
01:35:02,570 --> 01:35:05,615
kind of like the Internet is
a media network,

1869
01:35:05,615 --> 01:35:08,993
a text network, Right. It's
so it has the potential

1870
01:35:08,993 --> 01:35:11,454
to also do the kind of disruption
that the Internet did

1871
01:35:11,454 --> 01:35:15,251
because obviously
there are massive stakeholders

1872
01:35:15,251 --> 01:35:16,793
in different financial
like just look

1873
01:35:16,793 --> 01:35:20,922
at MasterCard and Visa
and some of the banks. Their role

1874
01:35:20,922 --> 01:35:23,967
would be to inter
operate on an open protocol, on

1875
01:35:23,967 --> 01:35:26,595
an open network instead of having
their entire fiefdoms.

1876
01:35:26,595 --> 01:35:29,097
So it would be
disruption at the scale

1877
01:35:29,097 --> 01:35:32,560
that would make Uber look quaint
if it were to actually

1878
01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:36,104
do that disruption.
But I think it's more

1879
01:35:36,104 --> 01:35:38,649
likely to be somewhere
in the middle it'll probably be

1880
01:35:38,649 --> 01:35:41,152
incorporated into society,
much like we've incorporated

1881
01:35:41,152 --> 01:35:45,238
other high value assets.
The state will retain its power

1882
01:35:45,238 --> 01:35:47,699
by creating its own money
and running its own banks

1883
01:35:47,699 --> 01:35:49,993
or commercial banks will have
that kind of stuff.

1884
01:35:49,993 --> 01:35:51,369
But Bitcoin will
just be incorporated

1885
01:35:51,369 --> 01:35:55,207
into the system. It will be sold
by major providers like Fidelity

1886
01:35:55,207 --> 01:35:59,295
and set of places. You know,
I don't know Coinbase,

1887
01:35:59,295 --> 01:36:00,546
I mean, maybe Coinbase
will be around,

1888
01:36:00,546 --> 01:36:02,756
but it'll be kind of
like something

1889
01:36:02,756 --> 01:36:04,841
that you buy on Nasdaq.
It'll be that kind of

1890
01:36:04,841 --> 01:36:08,052
it'll be that kind of asset.
And I don't know if that's going

1891
01:36:08,052 --> 01:36:11,724
to revolutionise
the world or not, but

1892
01:36:11,765 --> 01:36:14,518
it probably has the potential
of anything else

1893
01:36:14,518 --> 01:36:16,895
I've ever worked with.
Like I wouldn't have

1894
01:36:16,895 --> 01:36:20,274
subscribed to Linux that,
but Linux has also been a

1895
01:36:20,274 --> 01:36:23,527
revolutionary change, you know,
a general technology platform

1896
01:36:23,527 --> 01:36:25,362
that has the ability
to do all the things

1897
01:36:25,362 --> 01:36:30,158
like gain and task switching and
like that was stuff that you just

1898
01:36:30,158 --> 01:36:32,243
didn't get for free
until Linux came along.

1899
01:36:32,243 --> 01:36:34,371
You had to build
a proprietary OS or go

1900
01:36:34,371 --> 01:36:36,791
the proprietary OS
could do those things.

1901
01:36:36,791 --> 01:36:39,210
And then Linux is like,
Yeah, you need to be IP built in,

1902
01:36:39,210 --> 01:36:40,752
you need firewall capability,
you need to run

1903
01:36:40,752 --> 01:36:43,463
multiple processes. Yeah,
You want to do virtualisation?

1904
01:36:43,463 --> 01:36:45,006
Sure, we can do that.
You want to work with the

1905
01:36:45,006 --> 01:36:47,467
storage technology?
Okay, no problem. Yeah, right.

1906
01:36:47,467 --> 01:36:50,470
The code that was a game changer,
but I don't know if it was

1907
01:36:50,470 --> 01:36:54,307
as revolutionary as the internet
was because it's how we do

1908
01:36:54,307 --> 01:36:56,226
everything now.
We we communicate.

1909
01:36:56,226 --> 01:36:59,395
I mean, this call is facilitated
by the Internet that we couldn't

1910
01:36:59,395 --> 01:37:01,564
have done before.
This would have been

1911
01:37:01,564 --> 01:37:02,858
a long distance phone call
and it would have

1912
01:37:02,858 --> 01:37:05,985
been crappy audio. Form.
Like how could

1913
01:37:05,985 --> 01:37:07,988
it actually be the size and scale
of the internet?

1914
01:37:07,988 --> 01:37:11,908
I just don't see it. But
I think it just underscores

1915
01:37:11,908 --> 01:37:15,912
how how incredible is to be alive
during the Internet's

1916
01:37:15,912 --> 01:37:18,164
origination, right? Yeah, That's
what's going to be special

1917
01:37:18,164 --> 01:37:20,792
about our time life.
We'll timeline, we'll look back.

1918
01:37:20,792 --> 01:37:24,296
Our future generations will
look back and be like, wow,

1919
01:37:24,296 --> 01:37:26,798
that was the very beginning days
of the Internet. Wow.

1920
01:37:26,798 --> 01:37:29,801
Now here I'm on Mars
and I'm connected, you know?

1921
01:37:29,801 --> 01:37:32,470
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, that's a that's.

1922
01:37:32,470 --> 01:37:33,889
A really good point
you make where it is.

1923
01:37:33,889 --> 01:37:36,432
Yeah, the Internet. Because when
I hear people

1924
01:37:36,432 --> 01:37:39,310
making this analogy,
they're saying it as soon as in,

1925
01:37:39,310 --> 01:37:45,024
like the Internet started in 1997
or something. Yeah. So, so yeah.

1926
01:37:45,024 --> 01:37:46,694
Yeah. That's a that's a
really good point.

1927
01:37:46,694 --> 01:37:49,697
I hadn't thought of that before.
So yeah, it is going to be slow

1928
01:37:49,697 --> 01:37:55,286
and annoying for a while. Yeah.
And I mean, yeah, I. Really hope

1929
01:37:55,286 --> 01:37:59,622
I have this kind of
looking back period where I was,

1930
01:37:59,622 --> 01:38:03,918
I was copying a bunch of so
for those who don't know

1931
01:38:03,918 --> 01:38:06,255
in this show,
I'm going to get your

1932
01:38:06,255 --> 01:38:08,172
lightning address after this
and I'll put you in

1933
01:38:08,172 --> 01:38:12,720
as a 30% split. And generally
what I do is I have 10%

1934
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:15,890
the developers. And so
I was putting in, you know,

1935
01:38:15,890 --> 01:38:21,103
like Martin from POD friends,
Mitch from podcasts, etc., etc.,

1936
01:38:21,103 --> 01:38:27,400
and I was manually copying like.
The the. Lightning addresses

1937
01:38:27,400 --> 01:38:29,612
and I needed to kind of
do it on my phone.

1938
01:38:29,612 --> 01:38:33,073
And I had no real quick and easy
way to get it from, you know,

1939
01:38:33,073 --> 01:38:36,118
my desktop onto my phone,
copy it, get it into,

1940
01:38:36,118 --> 01:38:38,369
you know, sound since I'm
using this item.

1941
01:38:38,369 --> 01:38:41,414
And so I ended up just copying.
It was quicker for me.

1942
01:38:41,414 --> 01:38:46,295
Just to copy the random
text, the, you know, 30 numbers,

1943
01:38:46,295 --> 01:38:50,381
mixture of numbers and letters.
So I took their my mind

1944
01:38:50,381 --> 01:38:53,135
randomly, like looking.
Up, comparing down and off.

1945
01:38:53,135 --> 01:38:56,512
And I really hope this is one
of the times or in like,

1946
01:38:56,512 --> 01:38:58,765
yeah, five, ten years time
it's just like God

1947
01:38:58,765 --> 01:39:02,019
damn I remember doing that.
I remember manually copying

1948
01:39:02,019 --> 01:39:07,524
lightning addresses and yeah.
You know, as Linux users,

1949
01:39:07,524 --> 01:39:09,777
we enjoyed this tool
called Caity Connect, which might

1950
01:39:09,777 --> 01:39:12,613
be available for your platform
of choice. And one of the neat

1951
01:39:12,613 --> 01:39:14,864
things you can do is
share the clipboard

1952
01:39:14,864 --> 01:39:16,699
between your phone
and the computer. So if I copy

1953
01:39:16,699 --> 01:39:19,243
something on the phone
or on the computer,

1954
01:39:19,243 --> 01:39:20,412
it's immediately
on the other clip.

1955
01:39:20,412 --> 01:39:22,997
Oh, that's cool yeah.
That's a hand tool.

1956
01:39:22,997 --> 01:39:26,335
Yeah. Oh, for sure.
There's, there's I don't know

1957
01:39:26,335 --> 01:39:28,212
if you've had this but me
saying this before,

1958
01:39:28,212 --> 01:39:30,713
but I'm kind of a reluctant geek.
I actually don't

1959
01:39:30,713 --> 01:39:34,217
enjoy that. Much.
Playing with things.

1960
01:39:34,217 --> 01:39:37,470
I really looked at getting a,
a Raspberry Pi for a bit

1961
01:39:37,470 --> 01:39:42,059
and setting up a lightning nerd.
I think I made the right for me

1962
01:39:42,059 --> 01:39:46,479
not not to do that. It would have
it would have caused just so much

1963
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:51,402
mental anxiety and it was the
right decision,

1964
01:39:51,402 --> 01:39:57,323
not not to kind of play with that
and whatnot. So I'm not. On the

1965
01:39:57,323 --> 01:39:58,993
cutting forefront
of all of these things.

1966
01:39:58,993 --> 01:40:01,912
So I'm sure there's so
I do, which is just

1967
01:40:01,912 --> 01:40:05,416
there's probably a tool out there
that could solve it.

1968
01:40:05,416 --> 01:40:08,167
I don't know. But knowing
that limits are a good thing,

1969
01:40:08,167 --> 01:40:10,753
right? Yeah. You got to not only
you have to spend the time

1970
01:40:10,753 --> 01:40:12,256
to do the research
to find that tool,

1971
01:40:12,256 --> 01:40:14,257
but then knowing that
if it's not quite your forte,

1972
01:40:14,257 --> 01:40:17,886
I think is pretty critical
because, man, it stinks

1973
01:40:17,886 --> 01:40:20,555
when you're having node
issues and. It's an episode

1974
01:40:20,555 --> 01:40:22,181
where like you're getting
a bunch of great booths

1975
01:40:22,181 --> 01:40:23,809
and people are trying to throw
in their support

1976
01:40:23,809 --> 01:40:25,310
and that you can't
keep the node online

1977
01:40:25,310 --> 01:40:28,063
for whatever reason. Like that
happened to me

1978
01:40:28,063 --> 01:40:31,065
a couple of weeks ago
or, maybe not even that long.

1979
01:40:31,065 --> 01:40:33,277
I had a bunch of inbound
liquidity problems.

1980
01:40:33,277 --> 01:40:35,112
I got those solved
and as soon as I got

1981
01:40:35,112 --> 01:40:37,363
all that solved
and the big booths were coming in

1982
01:40:37,363 --> 01:40:40,783
and it was like, Yes, we did it,
I got it solved in time. Comcast

1983
01:40:40,783 --> 01:40:44,287
took my internet down
and for updates. Yeah.

1984
01:40:44,287 --> 01:40:46,998
And so my node was down all day
and it could get

1985
01:40:46,998 --> 01:40:51,211
the boost anyways. And that was
I was hard at that. That stunk.

1986
01:40:51,211 --> 01:40:54,338
So there's downsides to the self
posting sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

1987
01:40:54,338 --> 01:40:57,509
And I've solved that by mostly
just having multiple

1988
01:40:57,509 --> 01:41:02,805
different wallets across multiple
different areas. So totally dream

1989
01:41:02,805 --> 01:41:06,435
with fountain with get out
and when there's a new easy

1990
01:41:06,435 --> 01:41:09,188
lightning wallet that I can use,
I'll probably a fourth

1991
01:41:09,188 --> 01:41:13,233
or fifth as well just to
spread it out. So it's not

1992
01:41:13,233 --> 01:41:17,738
all in just one central location
for sure. Yeah, inevitably

1993
01:41:17,738 --> 01:41:19,238
you'll have to
probably investigate

1994
01:41:19,238 --> 01:41:21,867
like a wallet solution
or something if you want to,

1995
01:41:21,867 --> 01:41:24,578
if you want to,
you know, save them.

1996
01:41:24,578 --> 01:41:27,163
I've been experimenting
with various ways

1997
01:41:27,163 --> 01:41:30,501
to get them out of Albi
and spend them or save them,

1998
01:41:30,501 --> 01:41:31,627
depending on what
I'm trying to do,

1999
01:41:31,627 --> 01:41:34,253
because I really like Albi.
But Albi doesn't make it

2000
01:41:34,253 --> 01:41:39,009
very easy to get your SATs
out of Albi outside the

2001
01:41:39,009 --> 01:41:40,844
Lightning Network. Obviously you
can send it anywhere

2002
01:41:40,844 --> 01:41:43,387
that supports lightning, but not
a lot of traditional

2003
01:41:43,387 --> 01:41:48,101
bitcoin desktop wallets.
Maybe none, except for maybe one

2004
01:41:48,101 --> 01:41:51,104
support lightning.
So getting it somewhere

2005
01:41:51,104 --> 01:41:53,481
where you can save it long
term can be a little tricky.

2006
01:41:53,481 --> 01:41:56,068
I've been playing
with that recently. It's doable.

2007
01:41:56,068 --> 01:41:58,569
You know, you hop apps basically.
Yeah. Yeah.

2008
01:41:58,569 --> 01:42:02,533
And this thing you know
you're just there's this the

2009
01:42:02,533 --> 01:42:04,534
the reluctant part of me
which is like all right

2010
01:42:04,534 --> 01:42:07,662
well this is this is important.
So I will spend the time though

2011
01:42:07,662 --> 01:42:10,541
it's kind of uncomfortable
and not what I love to do.

2012
01:42:11,750 --> 01:42:15,546
I'll spend the time and
get this stuff. But yeah, just,

2013
01:42:15,546 --> 01:42:18,256
just figuring out
that that boundary point of like,

2014
01:42:18,256 --> 01:42:20,842
no mass, like,
I'm not going to do more. Yeah.

2015
01:42:20,842 --> 01:42:24,555
Yeah, it's good. And, you know,
save your energy for other things

2016
01:42:24,555 --> 01:42:27,140
that you do feel
a bit more passionate about

2017
01:42:27,140 --> 01:42:32,229
and all these great. Anyway so
yeah yeah I wouldn't,

2018
01:42:32,229 --> 01:42:34,856
I wouldn't want leave it in there
forever. But it's great right?

2019
01:42:34,856 --> 01:42:36,233
I've nothing bad
to say about them.

2020
01:42:36,233 --> 01:42:39,735
It's for what it does.
It does. Well yeah.

2021
01:42:39,735 --> 01:42:43,865
Have you used the air much.
At all, Chris? Yeah, I know

2022
01:42:43,865 --> 01:42:45,492
you're on the kind of
cutting edge of many of

2023
01:42:45,492 --> 01:42:48,036
these things.
Have you found, like, use cases

2024
01:42:48,036 --> 01:42:50,913
where it's kind of like, Wow,
this is really going to change

2025
01:42:50,913 --> 01:42:54,126
the way I do things? Yeah, I
mean, I don't know if

2026
01:42:54,126 --> 01:42:55,877
it's going to like it.
If it's a huge change,

2027
01:42:55,877 --> 01:42:59,006
it feels to me
just like another tool

2028
01:42:59,006 --> 01:43:02,717
that makes production a little
more straightforward. We've been

2029
01:43:02,717 --> 01:43:05,970
basically since it went public,
we've been using stable diffusion

2030
01:43:05,970 --> 01:43:09,682
to generate the images
for our live streams,

2031
01:43:09,682 --> 01:43:13,478
because I don't I don't feel like
making a silly face and I

2032
01:43:13,478 --> 01:43:17,690
don't feel like paying
for licensed stock photography,

2033
01:43:17,690 --> 01:43:20,109
So I just have to generate it
for a live stream

2034
01:43:20,109 --> 01:43:21,360
that a few hundred
people are going to watch

2035
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:23,113
is like not a big deal.
So it's great

2036
01:43:23,113 --> 01:43:25,908
for that kind of stuff. And then,
you know, your chat

2037
01:43:25,908 --> 01:43:30,494
chip body type stuff.
I, I find it really useful for

2038
01:43:30,494 --> 01:43:34,123
here's a story and I tell it.
What I'd like you to do

2039
01:43:34,123 --> 01:43:37,377
is I basically give it
the prompt, summarise the story

2040
01:43:37,377 --> 01:43:42,506
into bullet points prefix each
bullet point with an emoji

2041
01:43:42,506 --> 01:43:45,469
that represents the context
of that bullet point

2042
01:43:45,469 --> 01:43:48,180
and then format it in markdown.
And so then what I'll do

2043
01:43:48,180 --> 01:43:50,015
is I'll grab that output
and I'll put it into

2044
01:43:50,015 --> 01:43:51,934
a list of stories
I'm considering,

2045
01:43:51,934 --> 01:43:54,019
Which ones should I go
read and really like, you know,

2046
01:43:54,019 --> 01:43:57,271
dig up all the sides of it,
try to contact somebody

2047
01:43:57,271 --> 01:44:00,108
for commenting because all of
that takes so long. But I

2048
01:44:00,108 --> 01:44:01,859
and so what I can do
now with Chat

2049
01:44:01,859 --> 01:44:04,363
Jeopardy is essentially
I'll give it the stories

2050
01:44:04,363 --> 01:44:07,532
I'm looking at, read it summary
and then decide

2051
01:44:07,532 --> 01:44:09,243
if I'm going to proceed
further or not.

2052
01:44:09,243 --> 01:44:11,619
So it's not really
much more of a tool

2053
01:44:11,619 --> 01:44:14,622
than just identifying if a story
is interesting or not,

2054
01:44:14,622 --> 01:44:18,042
because it'll summarise it for me
with emojis and then text.

2055
01:44:18,042 --> 01:44:19,586
And when you're looking
at a dozen stories,

2056
01:44:19,586 --> 01:44:22,005
it works pretty well.
But that kind of thing

2057
01:44:22,005 --> 01:44:25,259
I find pretty valuable. And then
the other thing that I use it

2058
01:44:25,259 --> 01:44:31,931
for every day is I give it
the entire show notes document

2059
01:44:31,931 --> 01:44:34,600
and I say, Take the most
important keywords and put them

2060
01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:36,520
into a comma
separated list for me,

2061
01:44:36,520 --> 01:44:39,648
and then it generates
me a big old thing of

2062
01:44:40,815 --> 01:44:43,568
tags or keywords, however you
want to call them.

2063
01:44:43,568 --> 01:44:46,988
And then I can put that like on,
you know, the when they get post

2064
01:44:46,988 --> 01:44:49,323
or whatever platform it might be,
the ones keywords. And I

2065
01:44:49,323 --> 01:44:50,367
don't have to sit there
and go like, well,

2066
01:44:50,367 --> 01:44:53,828
we talked about Linux
and we talked about,

2067
01:44:53,828 --> 01:44:57,164
you know, Right. It just does, it
for me. So me a little bit

2068
01:44:57,164 --> 01:45:00,585
of touching. Yeah. Yeah.
There's a couple of ideas

2069
01:45:00,585 --> 01:45:03,130
which I might
even be able to use. Would it be.

2070
01:45:03,130 --> 01:45:10,220
Interesting is if it. Actually
kind of. Bifurcates the,

2071
01:45:10,220 --> 01:45:14,474
the text medium in many ways.
I've never been great at reading

2072
01:45:14,474 --> 01:45:16,726
stuff online.
I actually really hate

2073
01:45:16,726 --> 01:45:20,146
reading stuff on my computer,
long articles

2074
01:45:20,146 --> 01:45:25,193
and things like this. And it's
it'd be really cool to see

2075
01:45:25,193 --> 01:45:28,488
if there was just none of this
kind of middle ground

2076
01:45:28,488 --> 01:45:30,489
where it's it's something that
you think might be

2077
01:45:30,489 --> 01:45:34,411
is worth reading
or is interesting. But but it's

2078
01:45:34,411 --> 01:45:37,747
kind of like, you know,
it'll take 510 minutes to read.

2079
01:45:37,747 --> 01:45:40,167
But how much value
can you actually get

2080
01:45:40,167 --> 01:45:43,377
from something that's only worth
five or 10 minutes of reading?

2081
01:45:43,377 --> 01:45:45,255
You're not going to
you're not going to get deep.

2082
01:45:45,255 --> 01:45:49,926
So, I mean, maybe great,
if we just have the two opposite

2083
01:45:49,926 --> 01:45:54,972
ends, you know, the extremely
highly detailed bullet point,

2084
01:45:54,972 --> 01:45:59,226
which is creating stuff from
much larger like, you know, books

2085
01:45:59,226 --> 01:46:03,064
worth of information or really,
really long articles

2086
01:46:03,064 --> 01:46:05,984
where people have spent
the time to to figure things

2087
01:46:05,984 --> 01:46:11,698
out because. Yeah, I don't know.
I every kind of like I read a lot

2088
01:46:11,698 --> 01:46:14,408
Chris have gotten, you know,
book reviews and,

2089
01:46:14,408 --> 01:46:19,122
and just in general
if anything is kind of less than

2090
01:46:19,122 --> 01:46:24,127
less than a hundred pages, it's
short stories. For example. Even.

2091
01:46:24,127 --> 01:46:28,006
Compilations or collections of
short stories that I've tried

2092
01:46:28,006 --> 01:46:31,092
a few of them over the time,
and I've never

2093
01:46:31,092 --> 01:46:34,304
really done anything. For me,
it's always a book which has

2094
01:46:34,304 --> 01:46:40,476
a bit of meat to it, which is
the ones that I enjoy. The that.

2095
01:46:40,476 --> 01:46:44,480
There's just something
about these smaller short. Form.

2096
01:46:44,480 --> 01:46:48,777
You know, 5 minutes to 20 minutes
worth of reading, which is

2097
01:46:48,777 --> 01:46:53,489
it doesn't do for me. It's, it's
been a useful tool

2098
01:46:53,489 --> 01:46:56,827
for sussing out what is worth
spending the time to read.

2099
01:46:56,827 --> 01:46:59,621
What should I like? Either
send to a device to read

2100
01:46:59,621 --> 01:47:01,832
because I also hate
reading on the screen?

2101
01:47:01,832 --> 01:47:05,335
Or what can I just
process right now?

2102
01:47:05,335 --> 01:47:06,502
And then I have this
tagging system

2103
01:47:06,502 --> 01:47:08,046
for different shows
and then I'll then

2104
01:47:08,046 --> 01:47:10,590
it goes into a feed
for that show. So it's a

2105
01:47:10,590 --> 01:47:12,676
helps with inbound.
But then specifically

2106
01:47:12,676 --> 01:47:17,221
for Linux Action News,
we write a lot for that show.

2107
01:47:17,221 --> 01:47:22,060
It's not 100% script based,
but names, dates, companies,

2108
01:47:22,060 --> 01:47:23,936
you know, all the stuff you need
when you're reporting

2109
01:47:23,936 --> 01:47:26,856
on something that is facts,
you know that

2110
01:47:26,856 --> 01:47:28,567
you don't necessarily
just remember off the top

2111
01:47:28,567 --> 01:47:32,445
of your head. We all that out
and it is a useful tool

2112
01:47:32,445 --> 01:47:34,948
for getting that process started.
So if I say I'm

2113
01:47:34,948 --> 01:47:37,117
writing about Red Hat
and I know that

2114
01:47:37,117 --> 01:47:40,744
Red has a new CEO, Matt Hicks,
but when did Matt Hicks

2115
01:47:40,744 --> 01:47:42,538
first start at Red Hat? Well,
he actually started

2116
01:47:42,538 --> 01:47:44,498
at Red Hat 17 years ago
or whatever it is, right?

2117
01:47:44,498 --> 01:47:46,501
And so I can have it
help me start

2118
01:47:46,501 --> 01:47:49,421
writing that paragraph
and then it gets the right

2119
01:47:49,421 --> 01:47:51,006
it gets me through
that writer's block of

2120
01:47:51,006 --> 01:47:52,966
how do I start here?
And then I usually go,

2121
01:47:52,966 --> 01:47:54,885
Oh, well, that's crap,
but I'll rewrite it,

2122
01:47:54,885 --> 01:47:56,386
and then it's
exactly what I want.

2123
01:47:56,386 --> 01:47:57,679
So it's useful
for that kind of show

2124
01:47:57,679 --> 01:48:00,015
production stuff is just trying
to get something down

2125
01:48:00,015 --> 01:48:02,516
to get me going. Yeah,
then I can fill it out

2126
01:48:02,516 --> 01:48:05,979
from there. That's
a huge timesaver.

2127
01:48:05,979 --> 01:48:09,315
I mean, huge timesaver.
Just doing that. So it's. Yeah,

2128
01:48:09,315 --> 01:48:12,485
people are all freaked out
about the dangers and the safety

2129
01:48:12,485 --> 01:48:17,698
and misinformation.
They're not that good. It's dumb.

2130
01:48:17,698 --> 01:48:20,243
You can I can tell
when people use chat

2131
01:48:20,243 --> 01:48:24,456
GPT to generate tweets to reply
and it's like it's not that great

2132
01:48:24,456 --> 01:48:27,708
and it's not that
big of a threat. It's a useful

2133
01:48:27,708 --> 01:48:30,377
in that you can throw
anything at it prompt wise and it

2134
01:48:30,377 --> 01:48:32,046
generally understands
what you mean. I mean the fact

2135
01:48:32,046 --> 01:48:36,134
that I can say prefix an emoji
and select an emoji that's based

2136
01:48:36,134 --> 01:48:38,177
on the context
of that bullet point.

2137
01:48:38,177 --> 01:48:40,514
That's a neat thing to be able
to tell the computer to do,

2138
01:48:40,514 --> 01:48:43,015
and it just does it.
That doesn't mean it's

2139
01:48:43,015 --> 01:48:46,019
going to create fake videos
of President Biden or something

2140
01:48:46,019 --> 01:48:48,521
that's going to convince
that's just not happening.

2141
01:48:48,521 --> 01:48:53,484
So I think people are a little
hyperbolic right now about A.I.

2142
01:48:53,484 --> 01:48:55,862
and about how it's going to be
the next revolution.

2143
01:48:55,862 --> 01:48:58,657
And it's still early, right?
This A.I. stuff

2144
01:48:58,657 --> 01:49:00,699
is really incremental.
That's what

2145
01:49:00,699 --> 01:49:03,203
my experience has been. I mean,
you know, I was

2146
01:49:03,203 --> 01:49:06,997
telling you about that, that that
guy that played Age of Empires

2147
01:49:06,997 --> 01:49:09,125
he's been doing it, so he's
been covering it forever.

2148
01:49:09,125 --> 01:49:11,336
And so I went and then
YouTube suggested I watch the

2149
01:49:11,336 --> 01:49:15,215
Making of Age of Empires
from 1997 or whatever it was.

2150
01:49:15,215 --> 01:49:17,384
And I'm watching the making
of age empires. And you know what

2151
01:49:17,384 --> 01:49:19,469
they spend 15 minutes
talking about in this video

2152
01:49:19,469 --> 01:49:23,180
from 1997, and it's four by three
grainy VHS video that's been

2153
01:49:23,180 --> 01:49:27,101
posted on YouTube. A.I.
they spend 15 minutes

2154
01:49:27,101 --> 01:49:28,686
talking about their
AI in the game

2155
01:49:28,686 --> 01:49:31,314
and how proud they are
of their A.I. and how they can

2156
01:49:31,314 --> 01:49:34,693
dial up the AI and turn
down the A.I. and how it creates

2157
01:49:34,693 --> 01:49:38,947
these new gaming experiences.
It's like, Oh. Wow, I recognise.

2158
01:49:38,947 --> 01:49:44,034
This. Yeah, from 97 or something.
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Well,

2159
01:49:45,244 --> 01:49:48,582
my, my. Impression of it
is very, very similar.

2160
01:49:48,582 --> 01:49:52,752
It's a lot of hype people and.
I mean all of it.

2161
01:49:52,752 --> 01:49:54,671
From what I can tell
at the moment, is,

2162
01:49:54,671 --> 01:49:57,923
you know, the big,
the big has just been these large

2163
01:49:57,923 --> 01:50:00,467
language models.
And one of the things

2164
01:50:00,467 --> 01:50:02,804
I kind of know about
is it's like learning

2165
01:50:02,804 --> 01:50:07,016
another language and whatnot
and just how intricate and hard

2166
01:50:07,016 --> 01:50:11,229
it is to get the nuances. Of of.
Another language.

2167
01:50:11,229 --> 01:50:15,065
Like if. You just. Just even
like something like swearing,

2168
01:50:15,065 --> 01:50:20,113
for example, Spanish is just
an absolute minefield of trying

2169
01:50:20,113 --> 01:50:23,824
to get right and was one.
I always like to repeat this,

2170
01:50:23,824 --> 01:50:27,494
which is if, if you swearing
another language,

2171
01:50:27,494 --> 01:50:29,747
you invariably become
a little bit more racist,

2172
01:50:29,747 --> 01:50:32,458
a little bit more misogynistic,
a little bit more of an arsehole,

2173
01:50:32,458 --> 01:50:36,962
because you just
don't understand the

2174
01:50:37,005 --> 01:50:41,676
the whole context of when you can
and can't use these words and how

2175
01:50:41,676 --> 01:50:44,470
you can say this to a friend
and you can't say that.

2176
01:50:44,470 --> 01:50:47,765
And I've got a
a Brazilian friend here

2177
01:50:47,765 --> 01:50:50,726
in Brisbane who's who's learning
English and. It is,

2178
01:50:50,726 --> 01:50:53,354
is relatively good.
And we're teaching him

2179
01:50:53,354 --> 01:50:57,067
all the swear words
because it's funny and the ways

2180
01:50:57,067 --> 01:50:59,819
that he gets it wrong sometimes.
Like, Dude, you can't say that.

2181
01:50:59,819 --> 01:51:01,613
Like, that's not.
Enough because you.

2182
01:51:01,613 --> 01:51:07,577
So yeah, yeah. Hence it's, yeah.
I'm just sceptical

2183
01:51:07,577 --> 01:51:11,622
about how they'll, they'll take
over the world because the

2184
01:51:11,622 --> 01:51:14,458
it's so much harder
like is so much effort

2185
01:51:14,458 --> 01:51:19,255
required to get humans to,
to understand one another.

2186
01:51:19,255 --> 01:51:23,635
Like for me to communicate
in Spanish it required years

2187
01:51:23,635 --> 01:51:28,055
and years of just like hard slog
and grind for me to not only one

2188
01:51:28,055 --> 01:51:29,807
learn all the words,
but then, you know,

2189
01:51:29,807 --> 01:51:31,309
a lot of the context
behind some of them.

2190
01:51:31,309 --> 01:51:34,895
And I'm I'm still not a
I'm like a I don't know what

2191
01:51:34,895 --> 01:51:38,565
level it'd be like B to A I'm
not even close to fluency,

2192
01:51:38,565 --> 01:51:44,488
and it is just. A painful.
Process to try and insult.

2193
01:51:44,488 --> 01:51:47,826
That that a lot of. So yeah, I'm
sceptical of though.

2194
01:51:47,826 --> 01:51:50,869
Whether they'll be able to.
Be so convincing

2195
01:51:50,869 --> 01:51:53,914
that they'll feel
full humans and. You know,

2196
01:51:53,914 --> 01:51:57,042
they'll, they'll. Create so
such compelling misinformation

2197
01:51:57,042 --> 01:52:02,340
or whatever. That that will be.
Inevitably drawn into,

2198
01:52:02,340 --> 01:52:04,842
into whatever it is
they're saying. Yeah right.

2199
01:52:04,842 --> 01:52:07,345
And I'm sceptical. And.
I'm not even sure

2200
01:52:07,345 --> 01:52:09,722
if I buy the argument
that they're developing so fast

2201
01:52:09,722 --> 01:52:11,682
now that it's
just a matter of time

2202
01:52:11,682 --> 01:52:13,600
until they're generating
their own things

2203
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:16,354
that really do fool us. I don't
particularly buy it.

2204
01:52:17,313 --> 01:52:18,939
I think we've
kind of hit a ceiling

2205
01:52:18,939 --> 01:52:23,694
for a little bit. This I mean, I,
I say that with there's so much

2206
01:52:23,694 --> 01:52:25,363
obvious room
for improvement, right?

2207
01:52:25,363 --> 01:52:29,199
More integration with services
better better ways

2208
01:52:29,199 --> 01:52:30,952
to train these things.
Like there's so many areas

2209
01:52:30,952 --> 01:52:34,288
they're going to improve them,
but we're not going to get like

2210
01:52:34,288 --> 01:52:36,666
the Jarvis kind of AI where it's
sitting there and it's

2211
01:52:36,666 --> 01:52:39,877
kind of like bust in your balls
about stuff and your joke

2212
01:52:39,877 --> 01:52:42,463
and back and forth. And it's
it's kind of a bit of a jerk

2213
01:52:42,463 --> 01:52:44,423
and, you know, like
it has a whole vibe,

2214
01:52:44,423 --> 01:52:46,301
like that's not going.
I mean, it's just all fake.

2215
01:52:46,301 --> 01:52:49,304
It's all an act. It's, it's
a parlour trick a little bit.

2216
01:52:49,304 --> 01:52:52,181
It's a bit of it's
a bit of a smoke and mirrors.

2217
01:52:52,181 --> 01:52:54,975
What they do, right, Because
that's how all

2218
01:52:54,975 --> 01:52:56,770
this works right now.
And that's okay. It's, it's fine

2219
01:52:56,770 --> 01:53:00,105
if you recognise that
and recognise it can be flawed.

2220
01:53:00,105 --> 01:53:02,734
It's like I said, it's
a tool I'm using pretty much

2221
01:53:02,734 --> 01:53:07,238
on the daily now. So they've
got something. It's just not,

2222
01:53:07,238 --> 01:53:09,865
it's not, it's not worth
all these like one world

2223
01:53:09,865 --> 01:53:12,952
government regulatory bodies
that like Sam Altman suggesting

2224
01:53:12,952 --> 01:53:18,291
and thinking, Yeah, yeah.
Just wait. Yeah, for sure.

2225
01:53:18,291 --> 01:53:21,002
Let's jump. On to maybe something
a little bit more fun member

2226
01:53:21,002 --> 01:53:26,757
the travel. And. You talked about
you're hoping in the future to,

2227
01:53:26,757 --> 01:53:28,760
to go to different places
and whatnot. Have you travelled

2228
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:31,429
much outside of the US
because I know you've got the RV

2229
01:53:31,429 --> 01:53:37,601
so you've probably done
extensively in the US. Canada

2230
01:53:37,935 --> 01:53:39,520
because you're going a.
Couple of days in Mexico.

2231
01:53:39,520 --> 01:53:41,939
This year, right? I am.
That that's probably one

2232
01:53:41,939 --> 01:53:43,565
of the biggest.
I'm going to spend a week

2233
01:53:43,565 --> 01:53:47,529
or so in El Salvador in November.
That'll be besides and Mexico,

2234
01:53:47,529 --> 01:53:50,657
that'll be probably my
my biggest. And then inevitably

2235
01:53:50,657 --> 01:53:53,243
I have to get over to Europe.
I have to get over there.

2236
01:53:53,243 --> 01:53:56,371
I promised the audience
four years just have to make

2237
01:53:56,371 --> 01:53:58,331
it happen. It's just budget
and timing wise,

2238
01:53:58,331 --> 01:54:00,875
it's really tricky,
especially with three young kids.

2239
01:54:00,875 --> 01:54:04,628
Yeah, but that's yeah, for me,
I love love a road trip.

2240
01:54:04,628 --> 01:54:08,257
So I have really been biased.
The States and we have

2241
01:54:08,257 --> 01:54:10,969
I mean, it's not doing as
well as it was when I got the

2242
01:54:10,969 --> 01:54:15,430
RV years ago, but we have a
really robust highway system.

2243
01:54:15,430 --> 01:54:19,810
We have lots of rest stops
and lots of facilities for RV.

2244
01:54:19,810 --> 01:54:23,689
So it is other than the gas,
it is my absolute

2245
01:54:23,689 --> 01:54:26,234
favourite way to travel
because you got all your stuff,

2246
01:54:26,234 --> 01:54:28,735
you got your closet, you don't,
you don't have to pack, you know,

2247
01:54:28,735 --> 01:54:30,904
you got your bathroom,
you got your sink, you got your

2248
01:54:30,904 --> 01:54:33,490
toiletries, you got your,
you got your fridge with all your

2249
01:54:33,490 --> 01:54:36,786
stuff in it and.
It's just a fantastic

2250
01:54:36,786 --> 01:54:39,538
way to travel, especially for me.
Who wants to work from the road

2251
01:54:39,538 --> 01:54:42,041
and have recording gear with me
and all that kind of stuff.

2252
01:54:42,041 --> 01:54:45,461
So I love that.
And if I were like, you know,

2253
01:54:45,461 --> 01:54:48,881
a big time rich guy, I'd probably
just put the RV on a boat

2254
01:54:48,881 --> 01:54:52,135
and take it to the country.
They have roads taken. I thought,

2255
01:54:52,135 --> 01:54:54,595
Wow, yeah, that would
that would be a yeah.

2256
01:54:54,595 --> 01:54:59,559
I'd to see you try
doing that in Mexico. Yeah.

2257
01:54:59,559 --> 01:55:01,810
No, I think I'll have to get, you
know, one day

2258
01:55:01,810 --> 01:55:04,771
maybe a truck camper
kind of a thing. A smaller,

2259
01:55:04,771 --> 01:55:07,649
more nimble rig. Maybe I can take
that through the. Yeah.

2260
01:55:07,649 --> 01:55:12,488
It's like van. Life getting into.
Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever tried

2261
01:55:12,488 --> 01:55:17,284
the smaller, more, more
compact version? Yours is like,

2262
01:55:17,284 --> 01:55:20,162
for those who haven't seen Chris
Savi, it's huge.

2263
01:55:20,162 --> 01:55:24,333
It's like bus sized type work.
Yeah, it's a bus.

2264
01:55:24,333 --> 01:55:29,756
We tried SUV camping
a little while ago. Like, it's.

2265
01:55:29,756 --> 01:55:30,965
It was even
kind of cold out still,

2266
01:55:30,965 --> 01:55:32,591
but the wife and I wanted to see
what would happen

2267
01:55:32,591 --> 01:55:35,595
if we took our SUV
because the back seats fold down.

2268
01:55:35,595 --> 01:55:38,180
And we felt that one time
we just loaded it with something.

2269
01:55:38,180 --> 01:55:41,016
We use it mostly for hauling
crap and hauling.

2270
01:55:41,016 --> 01:55:43,060
And so we put the back
seats down. We're like,

2271
01:55:43,060 --> 01:55:46,146
you could put you could put
a bed back here and we could

2272
01:55:46,146 --> 01:55:48,106
camp in this.
And the wife was like,

2273
01:55:48,106 --> 01:55:52,362
Yeah, let's try it. So put
a bunch of cushions in there

2274
01:55:52,362 --> 01:55:54,363
and went out
into the woods, cause

2275
01:55:54,363 --> 01:55:56,783
we have ample camping
opportunities here in the

2276
01:55:56,783 --> 01:55:59,534
Pacific Northwest.
And it was miserable.

2277
01:55:59,534 --> 01:56:04,666
It was horrible. It was the worst
night asleep in a while and

2278
01:56:06,042 --> 01:56:08,836
felt so cramped, smacked my
head on the ceiling

2279
01:56:08,836 --> 01:56:14,676
multiple times, you know,
just like so not nice compared

2280
01:56:14,676 --> 01:56:16,719
to, like. Like I didn't
even think about, like,

2281
01:56:16,719 --> 01:56:18,971
what do I do with my shoes?
I didn't even think about that.

2282
01:56:18,971 --> 01:56:22,350
Or like, what do I do once
I take off my pants and my shoes?

2283
01:56:22,350 --> 01:56:24,101
And then I got to go
like, take a leak first thing in

2284
01:56:24,101 --> 01:56:27,689
the morning. Like, what do I do
about that? Like, horrible.

2285
01:56:27,689 --> 01:56:30,733
It's like a caveman. I think I
actually refine the idea, though,

2286
01:56:30,733 --> 01:56:33,944
and I think I could iterate on it
because I love the idea

2287
01:56:33,944 --> 01:56:37,864
of a nimble vehicle that I could
just jump in and go to an event.

2288
01:56:37,864 --> 01:56:39,449
You know, if it's
if it's an event that's on the

2289
01:56:39,449 --> 01:56:42,369
West Coast, I could drive to it
and there's lots of Linux events.

2290
01:56:42,369 --> 01:56:44,663
And so it'd be great
to have something

2291
01:56:44,663 --> 01:56:47,958
where on the way down
I could just sleep in the vehicle

2292
01:56:47,958 --> 01:56:51,462
and save on the, you know,
the hotel costs. Yeah, yeah.

2293
01:56:51,462 --> 01:56:55,800
I've been looking at
travelling again so I went for a

2294
01:56:55,800 --> 01:57:01,514
big travel in 2018, 2019 was
about 14 months through, through

2295
01:57:01,514 --> 01:57:05,685
Latin America. A fair bit of that
in Mexico as well.

2296
01:57:05,685 --> 01:57:10,398
I really, really enjoyed Mexico.
It's a beautiful place. And

2297
01:57:10,398 --> 01:57:12,984
one of the things I noticed
when I came back home

2298
01:57:12,984 --> 01:57:16,612
and I spent. Up, you know.
Two weeks at home, I just went.

2299
01:57:16,612 --> 01:57:19,657
Whoa, I have not had.
A really good sleep

2300
01:57:19,657 --> 01:57:24,078
for the last year and a bit.
It's been yeah, I had I.

2301
01:57:24,078 --> 01:57:26,456
Had some places
where I was, you know, I would

2302
01:57:26,456 --> 01:57:29,708
rent my own Airbnb
or get my own apartment and just.

2303
01:57:29,708 --> 01:57:32,587
You know. Be able to just lay
my shit out in the ground

2304
01:57:32,587 --> 01:57:36,466
and not have to worry about,
you know, being mindful

2305
01:57:36,466 --> 01:57:39,342
of other people and whatnot.
So I was mostly staying

2306
01:57:39,342 --> 01:57:42,637
in hostels and whatnot in.
Like dorm rooms. Yeah.

2307
01:57:42,637 --> 01:57:43,930
You're never
going to get good sleep

2308
01:57:43,930 --> 01:57:45,725
when you're doing that.
You got to you got to

2309
01:57:45,725 --> 01:57:48,226
stay somewhere a few nights
to get sleep. It's like the

2310
01:57:48,226 --> 01:57:51,939
lizard brain won't let you rest.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, I mean, even.

2311
01:57:51,939 --> 01:57:54,442
I was travelling relatively,
so I would usually try

2312
01:57:54,442 --> 01:57:58,779
and stay two or three nights.
The bare minimum, wherever I was.

2313
01:57:58,779 --> 01:58:00,864
And usually if I could,
you know, a week

2314
01:58:00,864 --> 01:58:05,953
or a week or more. And even then
it was just yeah, there was just

2315
01:58:05,953 --> 01:58:08,206
something about
I think I was, I had.

2316
01:58:08,206 --> 01:58:11,917
That slight. I know what you call
anxiety the lizard brain.

2317
01:58:11,917 --> 01:58:13,627
There was always something
being like, Yeah, you know,

2318
01:58:13,627 --> 01:58:17,256
these are all random people that
just coming in and out and random

2319
01:58:17,256 --> 01:58:19,841
times of the night
morning and just,

2320
01:58:19,841 --> 01:58:24,639
just, just be willing to wake up
at any moment sort of day.

2321
01:58:24,639 --> 01:58:27,641
Whereas yeah, after a couple
of weeks back home, I just went,

2322
01:58:27,641 --> 01:58:30,353
Oh wow, yeah, this is,
this is good. But yeah, now.

2323
01:58:30,353 --> 01:58:33,146
Imagine if imagine
if you could have that and travel

2324
01:58:33,146 --> 01:58:35,233
saying that's the RV, right.
That's your bad.

2325
01:58:35,233 --> 01:58:39,278
It's your pillow, it's your
blankets, it's Yeah. Stuff. Yeah.

2326
01:58:39,278 --> 01:58:42,280
And I've met some people doing
kind of like the man life.

2327
01:58:42,280 --> 01:58:45,743
I had some friends doing that
and variations of that

2328
01:58:45,743 --> 01:58:52,207
with trucks and. Or.
Truck type of deal. I don't think

2329
01:58:52,207 --> 01:58:55,586
I'd do that personally myself.
But travelling again,

2330
01:58:55,586 --> 01:58:59,465
I want to travel next year to
to Europe actually.

2331
01:58:59,465 --> 01:59:04,929
And I'm certainly just going to
really have to think about

2332
01:59:04,929 --> 01:59:08,640
how I do it because I'm not sure
I can do it

2333
01:59:08,640 --> 01:59:12,478
the way that I used to.
Maybe hostels. Yeah, right.

2334
01:59:12,478 --> 01:59:15,314
For meeting people.
So that's true. You could

2335
01:59:15,314 --> 01:59:17,942
you could do the other,
you can do the hashtag Van

2336
01:59:17,942 --> 01:59:20,987
Vanlife thing while travelling,
you know, rental or

2337
01:59:20,987 --> 01:59:24,364
something like that and park it
when you're done. Yeah. Yeah.

2338
01:59:24,364 --> 01:59:26,074
That's, that's an it
kind of between.

2339
01:59:26,074 --> 01:59:28,661
The other thing is
when you, if you, if you,

2340
01:59:28,661 --> 01:59:30,579
if you go to like
the camping locations

2341
01:59:30,579 --> 01:59:34,417
where people take like their RVs
or their hashtag Vanlife,

2342
01:59:34,417 --> 01:59:36,543
you generally find a lot of
pretty cool people

2343
01:59:36,543 --> 01:59:39,588
there to hang out. Yeah.
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. There's

2344
01:59:39,588 --> 01:59:42,341
a lot of networking.
Definitely. Definitely.

2345
01:59:42,341 --> 01:59:44,467
What's been some of your
favourite places to

2346
01:59:44,467 --> 01:59:49,472
to travel in the US? Mm.
Man you know, it's,

2347
01:59:49,472 --> 01:59:53,269
it's interesting
but a lot of times it's farms

2348
01:59:53,269 --> 01:59:55,813
so we stay at a lot of farms
because part of this program

2349
01:59:55,813 --> 01:59:59,442
that lets you stay at farms
and they're like these islands

2350
01:59:59,442 --> 02:00:02,737
of awesome in the middle
of everywhere, like every,

2351
02:00:02,737 --> 02:00:06,657
every state has them and they're
such a treat because there's

2352
02:00:06,657 --> 02:00:08,074
animals there
that you can go like

2353
02:00:08,074 --> 02:00:11,162
the kids can go see.
They're usually quiet

2354
02:00:11,162 --> 02:00:14,664
and sometimes they even have like
little shops on there.

2355
02:00:14,664 --> 02:00:17,792
So that's been travelling around
and stopping at different farms

2356
02:00:17,792 --> 02:00:19,587
has been something
I never thought I'd do

2357
02:00:19,587 --> 02:00:24,007
and it's so awesome. Montana was
surprisingly great. Ah,

2358
02:00:24,007 --> 02:00:25,926
the interesting thing
about going to Texas

2359
02:00:25,926 --> 02:00:27,929
was I think I had
preconceived notions.

2360
02:00:27,929 --> 02:00:31,515
This is years ago now. Disclaimer
But years ago I think I

2361
02:00:31,515 --> 02:00:35,019
had preconceived
notions about Texas

2362
02:00:35,019 --> 02:00:36,979
and what Texas
people were like and

2363
02:00:36,979 --> 02:00:42,859
the South of America. And
I got down there and was proven

2364
02:00:42,859 --> 02:00:44,528
wrong on everything, right.
Like just had a

2365
02:00:44,528 --> 02:00:48,240
totally re-evaluate
my my conclusions and assumptions

2366
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:53,078
I'd come to. I found the nicest,
most respectful people

2367
02:00:53,078 --> 02:00:56,582
I've ever met, you know, and
I had to adjust to it. They were

2368
02:00:56,582 --> 02:00:59,167
it was such a change.
People were so pleasant

2369
02:00:59,167 --> 02:01:04,297
and so nice that my being
from Seattle area took me,

2370
02:01:04,297 --> 02:01:06,509
took me a little bit,
and then I would go back to Texas

2371
02:01:06,509 --> 02:01:09,845
and I would find I would still
for a few after a few days,

2372
02:01:09,845 --> 02:01:11,471
would have to adjust to like,
why are these

2373
02:01:11,471 --> 02:01:14,182
people talking to me like,
don't talk to me, I'm

2374
02:01:14,182 --> 02:01:17,353
outside doing stuff, why are you
talking to me and all that

2375
02:01:17,353 --> 02:01:19,354
kind of stuff? And it was
that's been a really great part

2376
02:01:19,354 --> 02:01:23,567
about travel is sort of having
an opportunity to re-evaluate

2377
02:01:23,567 --> 02:01:27,613
some of those assumptions
that I had made along the way.

2378
02:01:27,613 --> 02:01:28,655
And then the other
thing is, is it

2379
02:01:28,655 --> 02:01:32,158
just turns out to be I guess it's
kind of a hobby, you know,

2380
02:01:32,158 --> 02:01:35,662
maintaining the learning
how the systems work, learning

2381
02:01:35,662 --> 02:01:39,750
how to repair them.
The ups and downs of all of that

2382
02:01:39,750 --> 02:01:44,087
have actually somewhat been
enjoyable, expensive

2383
02:01:44,087 --> 02:01:47,882
and sometimes crushing lead
like upsetting

2384
02:01:47,882 --> 02:01:52,262
but like inevitably
also something that you overcome

2385
02:01:52,262 --> 02:01:57,310
and adapt to. So that element
too, of just learning how

2386
02:01:57,310 --> 02:01:59,811
the ship that I drive down
the road works and how to fix IT

2387
02:01:59,811 --> 02:02:02,856
systems and keep it running
and keep it in good shape

2388
02:02:02,856 --> 02:02:05,443
has been kind of intellectually
stimulating and it's something

2389
02:02:05,443 --> 02:02:07,903
my wife and I can do together,
along with

2390
02:02:07,903 --> 02:02:09,697
taking these road trips
to go make memories

2391
02:02:09,697 --> 02:02:12,699
with the kids and
or go meet listeners,

2392
02:02:12,699 --> 02:02:15,744
stuff like that. Yeah. And you've
got this vlog, which I was

2393
02:02:15,744 --> 02:02:17,621
checking out for a bit,
and the amount of times

2394
02:02:17,621 --> 02:02:20,707
you have your borders
frozen or Oh yeah. Yeah.

2395
02:02:21,792 --> 02:02:24,962
The perennial. And there's
some really cool ones like you

2396
02:02:24,962 --> 02:02:27,340
saw the solar eclipse.
That's definitely

2397
02:02:27,340 --> 02:02:28,548
one of those ones
where it's like,

2398
02:02:28,548 --> 02:02:30,967
Oh, I'd really like
to see that someday.

2399
02:02:30,967 --> 02:02:34,387
That'd be really, really cool.
That was great. That was such

2400
02:02:34,387 --> 02:02:36,431
an experience. It made me want to
do it again because there's one

2401
02:02:36,431 --> 02:02:40,060
coming up in 2024. Yeah.
I was looking last night.

2402
02:02:40,060 --> 02:02:43,646
Those was one night, I think
2028 here and

2403
02:02:43,646 --> 02:02:47,984
I'd have to go down to
New South Wales to see it here

2404
02:02:47,984 --> 02:02:52,198
in Australia because it
kind of goes through. Like the.

2405
02:02:52,198 --> 02:02:55,993
Middle ish of Australia I guess,
and it's kind of. Like, well,

2406
02:02:55,993 --> 02:02:58,871
maybe I should.
Maybe I should make. a3d.

2407
02:02:58,871 --> 02:03:02,957
Pretty cool experience and that,
and the crowd man, because

2408
02:03:02,957 --> 02:03:05,920
the streets were lined for miles
with people just lining up

2409
02:03:05,920 --> 02:03:10,966
trying to get a spot and
boy, everybody, everybody was

2410
02:03:10,966 --> 02:03:13,301
so ecstatic. When that sun
comes back, you don't,

2411
02:03:13,301 --> 02:03:16,137
you don't expect it. But again,
going back to that lizard brain

2412
02:03:16,137 --> 02:03:19,975
like it's something weird
going on. It's dark everywhere.

2413
02:03:19,975 --> 02:03:23,354
It shouldn't be dark right now.
There's no sun in the sky.

2414
02:03:23,354 --> 02:03:25,730
This is weird. And then that
sun comes back and it's this

2415
02:03:25,730 --> 02:03:28,525
moment of euphoria like, Oh,
we're all going to make it.

2416
02:03:28,525 --> 02:03:29,859
We're all going to live,
you know. You know, it's

2417
02:03:29,859 --> 02:03:32,695
going to fine. Yeah, it was.
And then you could

2418
02:03:32,695 --> 02:03:35,115
hear in that video some people
just screaming like they're just

2419
02:03:35,115 --> 02:03:37,201
screaming with joy
that the sun is back.

2420
02:03:37,201 --> 02:03:40,662
And yeah, that was a.
Powerful moment for. Sure.

2421
02:03:40,662 --> 02:03:43,248
That's for sure. Yeah.
It really makes you think about.

2422
02:03:43,248 --> 02:03:47,420
All the. I've just
started the The Crucible by

2423
02:03:47,420 --> 02:03:51,215
Arthur Miller and you know,
it's about the Salem Witch trials

2424
02:03:51,215 --> 02:03:54,217
and whatnot. And it's just,
you know, it's the very

2425
02:03:54,217 --> 02:03:58,096
start of the book and I'm already
like, No, no, like humans.

2426
02:03:58,096 --> 02:04:00,181
What are you doing?
What are you doing?

2427
02:04:00,181 --> 02:04:04,603
You're already you're. Already
starting to get it wrong here.

2428
02:04:04,603 --> 02:04:07,564
Yeah. Yeah. Not a great
track record. Not. Not.

2429
02:04:07,564 --> 02:04:12,403
Yeah, no, not the best.
Absolutely not. But we do have

2430
02:04:12,403 --> 02:04:14,947
our moments. I mean, like, know,
it was pretty.

2431
02:04:14,947 --> 02:04:16,823
It was a pretty neat,
shared experience

2432
02:04:16,823 --> 02:04:18,701
with all those people.
Not even what I was experience.

2433
02:04:18,701 --> 02:04:20,118
Right. I wasn't thinking
that would be one

2434
02:04:20,118 --> 02:04:22,746
of the takeaways.
So we have our moments.

2435
02:04:22,746 --> 02:04:25,248
Yeah, for sure and. That's
you know there's there's a

2436
02:04:25,248 --> 02:04:29,336
couple of things. I. That are
definitely on the bucket list

2437
02:04:29,336 --> 02:04:32,756
seeing the northern lights for me
or yes I suppose the

2438
02:04:32,756 --> 02:04:34,425
I can do it here
in Australia as well

2439
02:04:34,425 --> 02:04:37,219
so I might not need to go
as far as Norway

2440
02:04:37,219 --> 02:04:40,305
or something like that. But
yeah, I was just

2441
02:04:40,305 --> 02:04:45,853
recounting the other. Well.
It was a clip that I'd played of

2442
02:04:45,853 --> 02:04:49,648
when I was in Guatemala and I saw
the green in the sunrise and it

2443
02:04:49,648 --> 02:04:51,859
it must have been
the green flash, I swear.

2444
02:04:51,859 --> 02:04:54,069
Once again, memory
faulty memories. I swear

2445
02:04:54,069 --> 02:04:59,617
I remember seeing green
in the sunrise for minutes, but.

2446
02:04:59,617 --> 02:05:03,996
Apparently that's. Not possible.
Who knows? And I

2447
02:05:03,996 --> 02:05:06,998
like that version. If that's what
your takeaway is, that's great.

2448
02:05:06,998 --> 02:05:10,586
Yeah. Yeah. I like a lot
of my memories. Um,

2449
02:05:10,586 --> 02:05:13,380
I'm hesitant to part
with them, though. A lot of them

2450
02:05:13,380 --> 02:05:17,051
do turn out to be questionable.
Questionable to say the least.

2451
02:05:17,051 --> 02:05:19,511
If that isn't
some us up right there, that's a

2452
02:05:19,511 --> 02:05:22,389
if that's humans to a tee.
I really like what I've come

2453
02:05:22,389 --> 02:05:24,934
to a conclusion about.
I don't want to give it up.

2454
02:05:26,393 --> 02:05:28,270
Yeah, yeah. But it
has been a while

2455
02:05:28,270 --> 02:05:30,021
since I've had some,
some of those moments

2456
02:05:30,021 --> 02:05:34,025
like that, um, which,
which I think travel just does

2457
02:05:34,025 --> 02:05:37,363
help to open up. Kind of like
we were talking about the

2458
02:05:37,363 --> 02:05:40,365
keeping your mind open
to new ideas, letting them battle

2459
02:05:40,365 --> 02:05:44,619
and whatnot. I think actually
having some travel and, you know,

2460
02:05:44,619 --> 02:05:45,996
seeing new things,
getting on the road,

2461
02:05:45,996 --> 02:05:51,335
trying new food, all of that
does facilitate that.

2462
02:05:51,335 --> 02:05:54,003
Unlocking aspect of of
just not getting

2463
02:05:54,003 --> 02:05:57,675
stuck in the routine too much.
Mm hmm. I've even seen it

2464
02:05:57,675 --> 02:06:00,344
in my kids. Yeah. It's been an
interesting thing to watch

2465
02:06:00,344 --> 02:06:05,015
with the young ones and the they
they didn't really conceptualise

2466
02:06:05,015 --> 02:06:08,476
the concept of a bunch of states
and a big country

2467
02:06:08,476 --> 02:06:12,730
until we went out on the road.
And then they really

2468
02:06:12,730 --> 02:06:17,778
conceptualise it now. Like it's
amazing. And that and kind of

2469
02:06:17,778 --> 02:06:20,113
clicking with the idea
that there's different places

2470
02:06:20,113 --> 02:06:24,158
that have different cultures even
in our own country, I don't think

2471
02:06:24,158 --> 02:06:27,579
was something that even crossed
their mind until we visited

2472
02:06:27,579 --> 02:06:31,958
some of those places.
So that's that. I think is,

2473
02:06:31,958 --> 02:06:34,377
I mean, probably applicable
to all of us, but it was really

2474
02:06:34,377 --> 02:06:37,715
something to watch it in. My kids
kind of happened in real time.

2475
02:06:37,715 --> 02:06:39,675
So yeah, probably happening to me
too, right? But I just

2476
02:06:39,675 --> 02:06:42,802
don't observe it as much Yeah.
And that's why it's, you know,

2477
02:06:42,802 --> 02:06:45,430
it's really useful to,
to kind of have other people's

2478
02:06:45,430 --> 02:06:48,182
experiences to live through
as well. So you can kind of

2479
02:06:48,182 --> 02:06:51,604
it's so much easier sometimes to,
to see what someone else

2480
02:06:51,604 --> 02:06:55,690
is doing wrong and
and and then be or. Right.

2481
02:06:55,690 --> 02:06:58,610
And and changes in them and then.
You know not.

2482
02:06:58,610 --> 02:07:00,738
Even realise the same
things are going on

2483
02:07:00,738 --> 02:07:05,367
within yourself. For sure.
That's very true. Yeah. I mean

2484
02:07:05,367 --> 02:07:08,037
there's been so much fun. Chris
thanks so much for,

2485
02:07:08,037 --> 02:07:13,125
for joining me which is up to
2 hours now. Nice. Is there

2486
02:07:13,125 --> 02:07:15,586
anything I can help you with?
Anything else you want

2487
02:07:15,586 --> 02:07:19,631
to chat more about or dive into?
No, it's been a

2488
02:07:19,631 --> 02:07:21,675
it's been a good chance
to do this

2489
02:07:21,675 --> 02:07:23,886
Check back in, I guess. You know,
in a little while,

2490
02:07:23,886 --> 02:07:25,804
I'd like to know how the value
for value stuff

2491
02:07:25,804 --> 02:07:28,056
is going for you guys and how
all of the boost

2492
02:07:28,056 --> 02:07:30,850
stuff is playing out.
I think that's an area that I am

2493
02:07:30,850 --> 02:07:33,228
intensely interested
in, you know, is building out

2494
02:07:33,228 --> 02:07:35,980
this community. And so
you guys are doing it, you know,

2495
02:07:35,980 --> 02:07:37,815
you're already doing it.
And so I say,

2496
02:07:37,815 --> 02:07:40,610
just keep doing that.
Stick with it I think,

2497
02:07:40,610 --> 02:07:46,074
you know, I mean, I listen
and I pretty picky.

2498
02:07:46,115 --> 02:07:49,828
So you doing something
right because it take much for me

2499
02:07:49,828 --> 02:07:52,872
to turn off a podcast.
Just stick with it,

2500
02:07:52,872 --> 02:07:55,751
keep building it.
I do appreciate that. And yeah,

2501
02:07:55,751 --> 02:07:58,420
one of it's one of those ones
where it's like I look at.

2502
02:07:58,420 --> 02:08:01,965
I look at. You as well
and I go like, Damn, I know

2503
02:08:01,965 --> 02:08:05,344
you have a whole lot of support
doing it. And you know,

2504
02:08:05,344 --> 02:08:07,887
the whole Jupiter Broadcasting
creating network, it's

2505
02:08:07,887 --> 02:08:12,518
not just one person, but men
like the amount of work

2506
02:08:12,518 --> 02:08:16,396
and whatnot ICU doing to
to drive that forward is it's

2507
02:08:16,396 --> 02:08:18,481
inspirational, man.
It's something I really want

2508
02:08:18,481 --> 02:08:21,568
to aim for and and try and
create something

2509
02:08:21,568 --> 02:08:25,322
not exactly the same,
you know, But. But. There's so

2510
02:08:25,322 --> 02:08:27,573
much of what you do,
which I really, really appreciate

2511
02:08:27,573 --> 02:08:31,578
and think. Awesome. So
yeah, yeah, awesome. Speaking

2512
02:08:31,578 --> 02:08:34,664
of Jupiter Broadcasting,
if someone was interested

2513
02:08:34,664 --> 02:08:37,751
in learning more about some
of these shows, what's the

2514
02:08:37,751 --> 02:08:40,295
best place to send them to.
Check out Jupiter

2515
02:08:40,295 --> 02:08:43,465
Broadcasting.com our website
that's been totally built

2516
02:08:43,465 --> 02:08:46,719
by our community. Another amazing
value for value exchange.

2517
02:08:46,719 --> 02:08:50,555
They created an awesome podcast
network website at Jupiter

2518
02:08:50,555 --> 02:08:51,597
Broadcasting dot com.