In this episode, we dive into the inspiring work of Hermann Vivier, the founder of Bitcoin Ekasi and The Surfer Kids, a nonprofit organization based in South Africa. Hermann shares his journey of supporting young people through surfing and financial empowerment by integrating Bitcoin into their lives. He discusses the challenges and triumphs of transitioning the organization to a Bitcoin standard, where they now fundraise and pay salaries in Bitcoin. Hermann also reflects on the impact of Bitcoin on the community, particularly during the COVID-19 lockdowns, and how it has provided a new avenue for societal change and personal growth.
Hermann opens up about his personal journey of recovery from addiction and how it parallels the principles of Bitcoin, emphasizing personal responsibility and self-sovereignty. He shares insights into the circular economy they've built in the township, where Bitcoin is used as a medium of exchange, and the transformative effect it has had on the children and the community. The episode also touches on the broader implications of Bitcoin as a tool for financial freedom and societal transformation, drawing parallels between the decentralized nature of Bitcoin and recovery programs.
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https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/djvalerieblove/214
(00:00:30) Introduction to Hermann Vivier and Bitcoin eKasi
(00:03:41) Transition to Bitcoin Standard
(00:06:34) Hermann's Journey into Bitcoin
(00:15:07) Bitcoin as Medium of Exchange and Store of Value
(00:21:19) Empowering Kids with Bitcoin
(00:34:06) Challenges and Success Stories
(00:54:44) Building a Circular Economy
(01:19:53) Spending Bitcoin in the Community
(01:32:35) Understanding Bitcoin Custody
(01:44:43) Personal Responsibility and Recovery
(02:04:16) Parallels Between Bitcoin and Recovery
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[00:00:31]
Unknown:
We're both getting our our our little drinks. Hey. Aloha, love tribe. Welcome to the show. I have somebody here with me who has been supporting young people with their dreams, with empowerment, with personal development, using nature, which is surfing, and combining that with the power of Bitcoin and financial empowerment. This is Hermann Vivier of Bitcoin and Kazi and the Surfer Kids. Welcome. Thank you so much for being with me here tonight. Or it's tonight for you, and it's today for me.
[00:01:06] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's tonight. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Totally. Well,
[00:01:11] Unknown:
let's let the audience know, like, who you are, how you got here. You know, you and I got to meet a couple years ago when I had the privilege of introducing you at the Adopting Bitcoin conference in El Salvador. And I've been, you know, a a long time follower of what you've been doing with the children in, you know, the surfer kids and with Bitcoin eKazi. But I would love for you to just be able to help everybody understand, like, who you are, what is Bitcoin eKazi, what is what are the surfer kids, and, you know, let everybody kinda get that that jam.
[00:01:45] Unknown:
Yeah. Sure. I mean, we're basically it's it's it's basically a community based, nonprofit charity organization. It's pretty pretty small charity. It's nothing nothing major, in terms of numbers. So we we we work with about, let's say, 60 to 70 kids, per day, five five days a week. But those are the same kids returning every day. So it's not it's not it's not it's not 60 new kids every day. It's, it's it's the kids, you know, it's the same kids returning. So let's say we our our total our total recruits are about 70 between sixty and seventy. And then on average, they will have an attendance of about 40. So, we and and we teach the kids surfing, and that's been that's been happening since 02/2010, when we started the organization.
Wow. And since 2021, so in, you know, sort of just over ten years after after starting the the the nonprofit, we we kind of we kind of flipped the whole thing onto a Bitcoin standard. And so we kept doing exactly the same thing we were doing before, except we started fundraising in Bitcoin as opposed to fiat, and we started, more importantly, started paying the salaries of all the staff who run the organization in Bitcoin. And that that was a transition that happened gradually, but today, we we pay a % of all salaries, in Bitcoin.
We have about ten ten people who work full time, for the organization and then another another 10 people, most most of them are youngsters who themselves came up through the program who work part time, to help us, run run the organization.
[00:03:42] Unknown:
How how did that transition happen in 2021? Like, how did you guys get from I mean, because it sounds like, you know, from 2010, you've been doing this program with the kids, and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, let's integrate Bitcoin here. How did that work for y'all? And during the lockdowns and I don't know what the lockdowns were like where you are. You know? Like, how how did that that shift happen?
[00:04:04] Unknown:
I mean, yeah, the lockdowns were pretty rough in South Africa. It was it was quite harsh. Not not the harshest that they were, but, I mean, I think I think that that happened because of a couple of there there was a few contributing factors. I think one of the one of the contributing factors, probably the most important one was the fact that, you know, after ten years of running this charity, I was getting to a point where I was asking myself, like, what am I doing? Mhmm. What what is the, you know, what is what is the bigger what's what's the bigger picture here?
Ten years of teaching kids surfing. Am I really changing anything? I'm sure there's you know, I I knew some some personal success stories of the kids themselves, but but I'm very much, like, interested in in societal change. Mhmm. I can I I can see that that things have to change on a on a fundamental level for there to be real real change? Otherwise, you're just putting Band Aids on on serious wounds. Yeah. And so I I I reached the point where and I I was just in in that headspace, you know, asking myself, what am I doing here? And then combined with that was the fact that up until that point, the charity was reliant on funding that came mostly through the tourism industry.
Seeing as my wife and I, we we we we have a tour operator. We run a tour operating business, and she still operates that today. But, obviously, during lockdowns, we, you know, we shut the business down, and we we didn't operate for two years. So and and as a result, funding for the charity dried up as well. So we we had to let staff go. We had to cut down, scale down operations. The lockdowns even meant at some point that the kids couldn't surf, so we couldn't bring the kids to the beach and and surf with them because the beaches were closed. So, yeah, we we ran out of funding. We I was at a I was at a point where I was asking myself, you know, what am I doing here?
And, you know, and then combined with that, I would say the third factor is that I I I wanted to contribute to global Bitcoin adoption. I
[00:06:34] Unknown:
I had How did you get into Bitcoin? Like, how was Bitcoin into your life at that point? Like, were you hardcore into Bitcoin 20 1 2021, or had you been into it earlier? Like, how did you all of a sudden go, wow. I wanna put chocolate and peanut butter together with the nonprofit in Bitcoin and make something happen. How did that, what was
[00:06:54] Unknown:
that decision? I was I was obsessed with Bitcoin by that point. Cool. I was I was living and and and breathing, it for for the most part of my day, but I was doing it sort of isolated on my own Yeah. Reading a lot, watching a lot of stuff. I I was introduced to Bitcoin in 2013 by a friend of mine, who gave me a copy of Bitcoin magazine, that was halfway through the year. And through, again, through our tourism business, we had some contact with people in in in Cyprus who had, you know, had had bank deposits, confiscated, this the the Cyprus banking system. Yeah. Yeah. That whole shit show.
Yeah. That was an absolute shit show. And I I just realized that that was really unfair to have, like, your hard earned money simply confiscated because the bank the bank went went went, bought, you know, just did bad business.
[00:08:01] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:08:03] Unknown:
And, you know, I I we were I I was not I was not very wealthy at at that point, not at all. We were basically living living, like, on a month to month basis. But I did buy some Bitcoin near the near the top in 2013 and then and then watch the price go down by, you know, 70 or 80%, whatever the case was. And I I started learning about it as a result of that. I I knew I had to understand what this thing was, or I had to sell what it whatever it was and just take the loss. And so instead of selling and taking the loss, I decided to to to learn what it was. And and two years later, we we started using it as a form of payment, because a lot of our clients were from Eastern Europe and Russia.
And with the first Ukrainian war, we we had clients who couldn't pay. And we we received our first Bitcoin payment in March 2015. And and that was the first time I I experienced receiving a payment from a client. And I remember sitting there, looking at the wallet, seeing seeing the transaction in the mempool, you know, waiting for the first confirmation, seeing it confirmed. And I just remember thinking to myself, there's no fucking way the banks are gonna win this battle. It's just it's there there's no competition here. Like, because we I I I I'd obviously had quite a bit of experience with international banking payments by that point, receiving payments from clients Right. For the tourism business. And yeah. So by by by 2020, '20 '20 '1, especially with the insanity of COVID, I I knew what the potential of of this thing was. Like, I knew what the potential of Bitcoin was if we saw mass adoption, but I didn't really know what I could do to help drive that adoption, further.
And I'm not a developer, you know. I'm not a I'm not a, I I I don't, you know our business used Bitcoin, but it wasn't a Bitcoin company, the tourism business. So I then and and then then the thought came to me that why don't I just copy what Bitcoin Beach did? Like, we have the charity. We have the NPO. I I had been following the Bitcoin Beach story, since the very beginning. I I heard one of the first interviews with Mike Peterson in 2019, on the on the What Bitcoin Did podcast. And even Yeah. Even Peter McCormack when when he was doing that interview with Mike, even Peter seemed a bit skeptical. Like, you know, this is okay. This is nice, but, you know, is this really gonna work?
But it it it kind of immediately made sense to me because I I I was in a very similar position with, with the charity that we had. We had a very strong foothold in the community. They they trusted our coaches and, you know, I could see I could see how we could, you know, move some of the salaries over to Bitcoin. And I knew that that would cause quite a bit of attention to to come on to the organization, but more importantly, it would bring attention onto the adoption of Bitcoin. And it would cause many more people to to consider and become exposed to to this, which is what we've seen.
[00:11:35] Unknown:
Well and I think too, you know, we're looking at, like, the way that you've approached this. And, here, I'm gonna switch it so you're not your face is not covered up with the text there. There's so many sly and roundabout ways to learn about Bitcoin and to learn about sound money. Right? And and I think, you know, what you're doing, you know, is sort of similar to, you know, some approaches that I have, you know, with personal growth or with music or with podcasting, and you do value for value. And it's not just here's you know, I'm a developer and a cryptographer and a hedge fund manager, and its number go up, and let's just go rock some investments. But it's like, how are you supporting the people who are using Bitcoin as not just store of value, which, of course, is wonderful for that, but as a medium of exchange? And for you, when you just said you got your your first Bitcoin transaction and you're waiting for that first confirmation, and you weren't calling the dude on the bank and going, hey. Is my wire transfer going through?
You know? You're you're using this peer to peer network that you can transact with anybody all over the world. And I think a lot of folks who don't understand why Bitcoin is essentially a medium of exchange, and, yes, it's a store of value. But if you don't understand that that's what it's designed for, is a peer to peer transaction system, you're missing the whole point. You know? And and it's just I I think it's a very understated thing right now because you're seeing all of these, you know, whatever, sailor and all the companies and the all these people are just like, cool, cool, cool. We're just gonna, you know, buy Bitcoin and HODL it. And I'm like, well, there's people who actually use Bitcoin as a life saving device to get out of authoritarian regimes, to get out of domestic violence, to get out of a place where they can't actually do their business because they've got all these middlemen and these, you know, gated people who are gonna say, nope. You can't transfer money over to Herman for his, you know, surfing camp with the kids. And it needs to take, you know, fourteen days, and the dude over here needs to put a stamp on the piece of paper. Fuck that. You know? And so it's just like Bitcoin creates this opportunity for people to have the freedom to transact with who they wish, where they wish. And and I I just love, like so so it's just it's so cool, like, what you've done. And so what I would love to hear, if you can, like, how has you know, because we've got obviously two kinda vectors to talk about, you know, how Bitcoin has changed your life as an entrepreneur, as a nonprofit operator, as somebody who's, you know, you know, just trying to bring people into your local area. But then you've also got the kids who you're working with. And, you know, I'd I'd seen recently, you know, and this is where I was just like, oh my gosh. We gotta get on the podcast now. You know, where the kids are earning Bitcoin to do certain things. And so how does you know, those are two kind of areas that we can discuss, you know, the the transformation.
And so I'd love to hear, like, how the kids' how are the kids' lives being transformed because of Bitcoin?
[00:15:08] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, the the whole medium of exchange versus store of value debate is probably never gonna
[00:15:15] Unknown:
never gonna be settled in that way. So it's one of those things that it's just, like, we need both. Like, we there's no, like, exclusion of the other. We want them both to be thriving. Right?
[00:15:26] Unknown:
Yeah. I don't I don't, I don't I mean, the one interesting thing about that debate I mean, I'll get to the question on the kids. But, the one interesting thing about that debate is that it seems to be that the people who are on the store of value side of the debate want to prioritize, the store of value aspect, whereas people who are on the medium of exchange side of the debate recognize that both of them are equally important. And that's why that that's why I tend to find more validity in the the medium of exchange side of the debate, simply because people who are on that side of the debate recognize that it's both at the same time, and it's not one or the other. And to me, like, I understand that there are economic arguments, for it to first before the medium. I've read those arguments and I don't see any fault with them. But I just didn't experience it that way. For me, it was both the medium exchange and the store of value all at the same time.
When I received that first transaction I mean, look, the first time I bought it in 2013, it was neither. I was, I was giving surf lessons at the time and I took some of the cash I'd earned and and bought bought a few sets with, with cash. And it was just a painful experience. Nothing else. There was no there was there was no medium of exchange, no store of value, nothing. I I took some I took some money and it it it we didn't have a lot of money at that point, but but it was a considerable amount for our circumstance then. And Sure. It was just, it was just painful. But then, you know, then in 2015, I when I saw that first transaction from clients coming in, and I was like, it was a medium of exchange in that moment, but at the very same time, I realized that because it's got a limited supply and because it's so useful as a medium of exchange to just do transactions regardless, like, no one can stop you, more people are gonna more people are gonna want this. And because more people are gonna want it, because it's so useful, it's gonna become a very, very good store of value because it's gonna go up in price because it's a limited supply and and and so it just to me, it was just obviously both of those things at the same time.
So, yeah, I don't I don't pay too much attention to the people who to say that it's it it cannot be a minimum exchange yet Yeah. Because it it it it is for me. Like, I'm I've been using it as a minimum exchange since 2015. And, yes, I know there's opportunity cost, but if you earn everything in Bitcoin, then it's almost as if that opportunity cost is not as relevant anymore because, you know, I there's opportunity cost in spending fiat money as well because I could have bought Bitcoin with that fiat money. Like, you know, if if I if if I buy this cup of coffee, it's to use the typical example that's been used too many times, but if I buy this cup cup of coffee with fiat money, I could have bought Bitcoin with that money.
So if everything I own is in Bitcoin and I'm buying a cup of coffee, there's no opportunity cost there, regardless of which currency I choose to spend on it. But anyway, yeah. Look. I mean, we we we introduced it as a minimum exchange to the children and to the coaches who work for us because it makes more sense in their frame of reference. Like, I I would have had very little success introducing Bitcoin as a store of value and as a savings mechanism, first. You know, if if if if you're earning if you're earning minimum wage and, you know, you you don't you you spend most of what you earn, Then introducing Bitcoin as a medium exchange just makes more sense. You can it's useful. You can buy stuff with it, and you can buy things in a way that you weren't able to buy things before. Like, if you've never had a bank account, you've never had a credit card, you've never been able to make online purchases, now all of a sudden, Bitcoin gives you a way to make online purchases. It's it's it's mind blowing if that's if that's the first time you'd ever done that.
So it it makes sense to introduce it as a as a medium exchange, and then to to to bring in the store of value aspect, with time. Because, ultimately, the aim is still to introduce it to the staff and to the kids as a store of value because that's how that's how you change your life. I think, you know, there's there's only one way to improve your own circumstances, and that is to to build capital and save for the future. And and that means, you know, investing and and not saving cash in the bank, but saving saving your money in something that that appreciates in value over time. And that will always be the ultimate goal. It's just a question of how do you introduce it. And if you're a highly educated person, perhaps I can introduce that concept to you by giving you the Bitcoin standard. And you'll read the book and you'll get it, and you'll go out and you'll buy, you know, a bunch of Bitcoin. But if you're not highly educated, you can't read, big numbers don't make sense to you, you know, you struggle to understand difficult concepts, complicated concepts, It's I'm not gonna be able to introduce this idea to you by giving you the Bitcoin standard.
So a much more effective way to introduce it to people in those circumstances is to say, look. You can use this thing. It's good for money.
[00:21:16] Unknown:
And with time, you'll understand that it's good for saving too. Well and and I think, you know, for you, obviously, and for for many people. Right? There's obviously several billion people around the world who are unbanked and unbankable because of where they live. Right? Whether you're a woman, whether you're a kid, whether you just happen to live in a certain jurisdiction. And so the idea of, the opportunity to have something that can appreciate over time other than, like, oh, look. I bought some I have some paper fiat of whatever my local currency is, and I stick it under the mattress that gets, you know, its purchasing power debased because they're inflating it is is revolutionary.
And and you can do it if you have an Internet connection and a phone, you know. And even with, like, Monch Incuda and, you know, other organizations that are out there trying to help people figure out, like, how are we using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange? It's you know, and, obviously, you know, we've got Lorraine Marcel with BTC Data. It's like and I didn't know this until I interviewed her, and I'm still learning. I'm like, I'm you know, the reason I do this podcast is cause it's like an educational opportunity for hopefully my audience to get stuff, but also, of course, for me because I'm I'm I'm no expert, you know. But I remember interviewing her and she was just like, Val, do you even understand that, like, women don't have property rights in certain parts of our continent?
You know? And if the husband dies, then anything you had goes to the family of the husband and not you. And I was like, I didn't know that. You know? I just my mind is just sort of, you know, in this privileged first world, like, well, of course, it can be my property. And she's like, uh-uh. And so Bitcoin to me is like this life raft savings tool for different people to have property rights. You know? And regardless of where you live in your jurisdiction, if you can memorize 12 to 24 words, you can have an opportunity to own your future, you know, and not just from a a a store of value, but, okay, if I have to leave and I'm gonna be a refugee and I'm in another country or whatever it might be, you know, because if you've got a a bank account with whatever your your denominated, you know, currency is, if you need to get out of Dodge quick, that's not gonna be very valuable. Nobody wants it. You can't transfer it. Forget about it. Right? But if you've got those 12 seed words, you know, the the seed phrase in your mind or in your pocket or wherever it is, you have an exponential chance to, like, create a new life for yourself.
And when I learned about that with Alex Gladstein and Roya Mahboob, I was just like, holy guacamole. Like, this is actually, like, a life saving tool to have have something like this. Because if if you're a refugee in any world, any part of the world, if you don't have access to resources, you're gonna be subject to whatever the the area is that you're in, and you're gonna hope that you can get a handout, or you're gonna hope you're in a camp, or whatever it might be. Right? But but the fact that these folks can take their their wealth and their worth with them anywhere, that's unprecedented.
It's unprecedented. You know? Because you can get robbed. You've got your silver coins or your gold coins. You You got your diamond or whatever you think is. You're like, you're, This is my life savings. And it's like someone's just like, I'm gonna clobber you over the head. But if they don't know that you're carrying those 12 words in your head, they can't steal that from you. And then you have an opportunity for freedom. And that's, for me, personally, what changed my life about Bitcoin versus crypto versus fiat versus all the other nonsense. And so, do the kids get it? Like, do they understand that this is something that is, a tool for their own freedom and sovereignty for their future?
[00:25:30] Unknown:
I I mean, it depends what age kids you're talking about. The the older the older kids so we we we recruit kids from the age of, of about six, six years on. So there's some really young kids in the in the surfing program.
[00:25:49] Unknown:
Did are they are they just let me ask you this. Are they are they, like, from typical families with mom and dad? Did are they orphans? Are they like, what's their what's their kind of socioeconomic familial status?
[00:26:06] Unknown:
I mean, the socioeconomic status is is probably, as as probably as low as you can imagine on the on the poverty ladder, if you wanna call it that. So it's well, it's I mean, there there there are worst there's always worst situations, but it's pretty bad. You know, most most of the families are are broken. Many many of the families are broken. The father is absent, the mother is a drug addict, whatever the case may be. Kids live with their grandparents very often. There's oftentimes, you know, one grandparent looking after more than one one family's children or, you know, stuff like that. It's it's it's it's pretty hectic.
And I mean, that's that's one of the reasons why we started, the the the the charity in that specific area is, you know, you wanna you wanna go to where you feel you can make the biggest difference. So it's a it's it's a pretty desperate situation for most of these kids. Then, you know, they they end up as I said, it's it's the same kids who return on a daily basis. So it's kinda like school, in a way, because we don't we don't we don't we don't have a a a turnover where every month we'll, you know, get a whole bunch of new recruits. We we do recruit on an ongoing basis, but the idea is that if the coaches recruit a child, that child stays in the program for many, many years.
Some of the older kids that have started working for us, you know, when they turn 14, 15, 16 years old, they start working for the organization. By that time, they've been surfing with us for five, six, seven, eight. Now if we recruit them if if we recruit them when they're eight, by the time they're 16, they've been with us for for eight years. And so those those kids understand, what the potential of of Bitcoin is because they've been they've been, you know, earning a earning a salary, for some time, the ones that are older and that are working working for the NPO. The younger ones, which is the video I think you replied to, that's that's a little different because there we there we target the very, very young kids. And what we do is those aren't those aren't salaries. Those are basically so we we have, obviously, an attendance system where we we check which kids show up and which don't so that we can track track the attendance to see which ones are are absent, you know. Is there a problem? Why are they absent? Why are they not coming? And and and, and so if we see really good attendance, we'll take, like, you know, we'll take all the kids that that have an attendance that's above, like, 80% or above 70%. So that means they attend, you know, three or four out of the five serve sessions every week.
And and we'll reward them in sets, for that, you know, primarily because we wanna teach this idea that if you if you really put the effort in, you will get rewarded. But then but then second is this idea that, okay, and you're also being rewarded in Bitcoin, and that's different. That's different from being rewarded in fiat. I mean, first of all, it's different because you never we we we never would have been able to do this with fiat to begin with. So if if you think about it, you know, we we sometimes, we reward 30 kids out of the 60 recruits that we have. Right?
Many of those kids don't have birth certificates. Many of them, you know, don't have, proof of address or papers. So how how would you do this with the fiat system? You you wouldn't be able to do it with digital banking because opening bank accounts for these kids would be completely impossible. And you wouldn't wanna do it with cash because that would be a security security nightmare. You know? So doing it with Bitcoin is actually the fact that it is Bitcoin is kind of, like, of secondary importance. The most important thing to understand is that we're rewarding them for hard work. That's that's the core concept. And then we're just we're we're kind of doing it with Bitcoin because, well, we're a Bitcoin adoption project, but also because that's the only thing you can do it with. We we we we wouldn't even have considered doing it with fiat, just because it'll be impossible.
So what what we've done with the Bitcoin rewards is we actually run the we run the the infrastructure ourselves. We have a a self hosted BTC based server, and then we have NFC cards, that are linked to that. And the kids all have their own individual card. And we are basically we when I say we, I mean the organization. It's basically the bank. And we are, if you wanna call it that, banking banking these kids by giving them an account. And, yes, I suppose, even there, the long term aim is to teach this idea of savings. Because if you earn these rewards this month, you are rewarded for hard work. That's great. And, also, on top of that, if you don't spend these rewards this month, they still they'll still be there next month.
You know? And if you don't spend them the month after that, it'll it'll build up over time. And and and the next month, it'll still be there. And you can check the balance on your account. You know, the kids know how to do that. The coaches can help them with it. And over time, learn to save in in a similar way that the coaches and the staff are all are all encouraged,
[00:32:03] Unknown:
to to save. Well, and I think too, you know, just like, obviously, you've adopted this from the inspiration of Bitcoin Beach and Mike Peterson and, you know, what his wonderful accomplishments have been. And I think, you know, I remember, you know, a few years ago, obviously, when when I was learning about Bitcoin Beach and, what he was doing, but just when he was saying he was paying the kids to, you know, sweep the porch or whatever the chores were, and they got to get paid in Bitcoin. And the next day, the the the fiat value of the Bitcoin could go up. Obviously, it fluctuates, so we know it's not always gonna go up. But these kids were just like, you mean I could I don't have to just spend it today on Doritos and Coca Cola? Like, I can what happens if tomorrow, it goes up another, you know, whatever, x percent? And so just that visual mindset and of looking at the numbers kind of going up for these children who don't have the capacity to get a bank account, save if you're gonna go get paper whatever currency and stick it in your mattress, you know, that could get deflated in two seconds with, you know, the stroke of a digital pen.
That to me was such an interesting game changer for these children to think about, you know, financial literacy, savings, you know, and not just having that, like, well, I got something. I need to get rid of it out of my pocket before I'm not able to use it sort of thing. And so is that kind of the same experience that you had with the kids, you know, when they started understanding? Like, holy cow. I can I don't have to go every just just because I got paid today doesn't mean I need to go blow it all and spend it all today? Like, for them to understand that this is something that can be you know, they can spend some of it if they wish to, but they have an opportunity to have a segment of it, whatever that, you know, percentages that they choose.
And perhaps over time, if they wait long enough, it it it will it does and it will grow.
[00:34:06] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's definitely the older kids definitely, understand this. The younger ones, I mean, probably not. Just because they, you know, they're too young. The concept the concept probably won't make sense to any to any eight year old. Yeah. Well,
[00:34:28] Unknown:
to some eight year old. Some, they'll get it. But, yeah, for most of them, they're just like, cool. I got some ice cream money. Let's go spend it.
[00:34:36] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, especially for an eight year old that comes from a circumstance where they they hardly ever have money to spend. Right. So, you know, it's but but it's not we're not giving these kids large amounts. So it's it's a it's a worthwhile price to pay for their long term education. And so the older kids definitely get it. The ones that have been a part of this for several years. I mean, we have there's there's there's a good example of one of the older kids who who, who saved up, enough money to to build a little extension to his dad's house so that he had his own room rather than because the, you know, the the houses are really small, so you would have you would have a family of four people staying in in what is effectively, a shack that that that's kind of like a bachelor flat setup where everybody everybody shares one room.
And and the kitchen and everything, everything is in that one room. And so, you know, one of these one of these older kids I mean, he's he's quite a bit older by now. I think he's turning 18 this year. But he'd been he'd been earning a small salary in SATS for the last three years. Started earning about three years ago. And, and he saved up enough money to to build, his own his own room so that he didn't have to share his, his living space with with the rest of the family. So they they they definitely are examples of the older kids to who, this makes sense and they and they do get it.
And he understands that part of the reason he's able to do that is because he saved this money in an asset that went up in value over time. That's just obvious. You know? It's if he had been saving it in in fiat, it would have taken him three, four, five times longer
[00:36:37] Unknown:
to save that same amount. So, yeah, definitely, there are some some of the older kids that do understand. How does it work for so so just as you know, and, obviously, you don't have to dox this child. How does it work for the interaction with his family? You know, that do they are they on board? And they're like, yeah. Cool. Great. You know, Johnny for wanting to save and do this thing. Or they're just like, oh, you're kinda crazy. Like, what's the obviously, you know, we have a bell curve of most things in the world. But, like, what's the typical interaction with the children and their families?
Because a lot of families, even my family, still doesn't understand Bitcoin, and they think I'm insane. You know? So it's just like, how do these young kids who aren't, you know, forceful adults, how do they, how do they communicate Bitcoin to their families in a way that keeps harmony within the unit, if that makes sense?
[00:37:40] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, that's that's it's, it's not a question I get asked very often. It's a good question. There's there's examples on both ends of the spectrum. There's there's examples of families that are really supportive. In this case, that I just mentioned, he's he he lives with his dad. It's him and his two younger brothers, and and his dad. And his dad is very supportive, and so that was a very positive, situation. But there are there are examples of kids who earn SATs. And and and when when I say kids who earn SATs, we're not talking about full time employment. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, kind of Like, you showed up. You did the program. You did the stuff. Right? Yeah. You're getting some tasks. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. When when when they're really young, it's literally just just a little pocket money reward for for for showing up. And and as they become older, they they actually do start working where they start coaching and and guiding the younger kids.
But, yeah, there there there is an example of of of kids who do become older and then, you know, do start earning a better salary and do actually start working for the for the project, who where the family is not not very supportive at all. And they, you know, they they try and and take the money from them. And, you know and and, again, here, it's it's kind of, you know, it's kind of a good thing that we that we're using Bitcoin because in many of these cases, we can't pay the kids to to bank accounts because they don't have bank accounts, obviously. And we cannot prevent the family from taking their Bitcoin.
You know, obviously obviously, at the very beginning, the family don't know what it is. They don't know how to use it. But with time, they'll figure it out. And then it becomes a situation where they could actually, you know, take take the child's wallet, force him to pay the SATs into into a wallet that they control, and and they could take his SATs that way. But because it's in Bitcoin, there are ways that we can mitigate this. So, you know, we can still we could, for example, set up a wallet where the child, you know, or or the youngster, you know, we sometimes we're talking about we call them kids, but they're already 18 or whatever.
You know, they're not really kids anymore. But we could we could we could set up a wallet where where the kid has, like, has access to check the balance, but they but they haven't got access to spend it unless they're with one of the coaches. Interesting. And so in those situations in in those situations, they they can see they're getting the paid their salary, or their stipend or whatever whatever the case may be, and they can see it accumulating. But there's no way for the family to force them to pay the SATS over to their wallet. And and it's it just because because Bitcoin is is open and permissionless, you know, I mean, I I I I was chatting to one of the developers from Blink not so long ago, three weeks ago, and they he just he just built this new tool where, you know, I could go into one of my Blink wallets, generate a read only API key. I can give that API key to anyone else.
They could log on to this website, put the read only API key into the website, and then and then read my entire wallet balance. And it's something that he just built just because. And they see he didn't have to ask anyone's permission. He he could just do it. And so so there are these tools that enable you to do things that would have been entirely impossible, with a traditional bank account. So we can't in the in those cases where the family is not supportive, we can't entirely avoid
[00:41:41] Unknown:
the kids sometimes losing the money that they're paying for. Having a what about having a a decoy wallet?
[00:41:48] Unknown:
Yeah. So that's that's what I'm trying to explain is you can you you you can set things up in a way so that it becomes way more difficult for them to use. Well, but with a decoy wallet, it just for example, and again, help me if I'm not saying it correctly.
[00:42:03] Unknown:
You know, my understanding that a lot of people do these, you know, OPSECs, and they're trying to make sure that, like, if somebody comes with my $5 wrench and wants to attack me at my house, you know, I've got whatever x amount of Bitcoin sats, you know, so that they're gonna be happy and leave my house and not kill me and my family. Right? The real stash is over here. You know? The real Bitcoin is in a different completely different wallet. And so you wanna have perhaps several decoy wallets. Who knows? You know? Obviously, if you have multisig and if you're doing that kind of different types of configurations, but still you're gonna have that transparency. And if your family is not on board with you and they know, like, woah. You got all this, you know, Bitcoin that keeps going up, they might, you know, harass you or, you know, do some type of manipulation to get you to turn over your Bitcoin to them versus Yeah. Okay. Here's my smokescreen for you, and this should be good enough.
And leave me alone, and I'm gonna go have my free life over here when I'm able to get away from you, who is trying to hurt me and manipulate me, whether it's a $5 wrench attack, whether it's, you know, parents for a 17 year old, you know, whatever it might be. But I feel like it it's a it's a it's an interesting, delicate conversation to have, you know, because it's not there's no one size fits all solution for how this works for people. Yeah.
[00:43:34] Unknown:
Yeah. I know exactly. There there are there are ways in which we can set set up the wallets where the kids save, where it becomes nearly impossible for the family to take it. It's a little bit more difficult to do that with a with a daily spending wallet where you have, like, a a blink or a wallet of stowage or something like that. But that that's that's a little bit but even even there, there's there's ways to there there's there's ways to make it so that, it's it's more difficult. I mean, it it's it's no matter how no matter how you look at it, it's way, way safer than paying those kids in cash. Yeah. Everything's way safer than cash for the kids.
[00:44:11] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:44:13] Unknown:
And and it's way it's way easier than than than than paying them into a a bank account. Right. Because you can very quickly move from one wallet to another. If if if, you know, if if you if one of the wallets have been compromised, you can just open up a new one, link it to a new email address, move all all the sites over to a new new email address. And if the family does have control of that wallet, then they'll find it's empty, before they can do anything with it. So it it just it just becomes it just it it's just so much easier to do it with to do it with Bitcoin because you're in control of of of the funds rather than rather than the bank being in control. You know? You can imagine a situation where we, as the organization, pay the salary for this kid into his bank account, but somehow the parents gain access to the account through the bank.
There's very little that we would be able to do as an organization by going to the bank and saying, look. This is not you know, the bank would it it would be a paperwork paperwork red tape, bureaucratic nightmare to to try and to try and do anything. So So because it's Bitcoin, because we control it, because we are basically the bank, the organization becomes like the like the bank. We can we can steward, the the kids' funds in a way that is in their best interest. Have you done anything
[00:45:37] Unknown:
with, like, Alan Bits and Splits? Like, I you know, a a a while ago, I was, you know, just trying to figure out from, you know, podcaster, musician, artist, creative, you know, any point of view, right, where you wanna, like, like whatever. If somebody donates whatever, a thousand sats, right, and then instantly, you know, 10% goes to, you know, Bitcoin and Qazi, 30 percent goes to the kids, 60% goes to operating expenses, whatever, you know, whatever your split is that you, you know, put on that particular, you know, address, QR code, whatever.
Because to me, that seems like an easy way also so that you're just you're not even being the middle. You know? It's just kind of like it sort of bounces off of your, you know, your your placeholder as it were. And so there's not, like, something that you have to worry about. And I think about kids, again, like, if there's parents or if there's people who are out there who are just like, where's the real money? Where's the this? And it's like, there isn't any. There's, like, literally, this is my decoy, which is what they think is real. And I I guess I'm just saying this from an adversarial point of view because there's there are people out there who wanna, you know, take advantage of people's stash, you know, whether it's a kid, whether it's an adult, whatever. You know? And so it's kinda like, okay. 10% is going into my decoy wallet and, you know, 80% is going into my real wallet kind of thing. And that could perhaps create a security diversion so that other people can't come and get your life savings and can't come take it. And they have no they have zero understanding that there's even another wallet or 10 that exist, you know, for these kids. And I don't know. I just kinda think about, like, for the long term for a lot of people who are holding Bitcoin, you know, who aren't just, you know, the the server kids. It's like, how can we create places where we're gonna be safe if somebody comes and tries to mess with us? You know? Whether it's our parents or the $5 wrench attack or the government or whatever. You know? But it's kinda like my my deep cold storage is over here, and everything got split automatically.
And then here's my little, you know, facade of what is gonna make you shut up and leave me alone and get out of my house. You know?
[00:48:16] Unknown:
Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, I think one of the one one of there's there's not a lot to to be super positive about in that I know. Community, but but but but one of the one one of the things that one can be quite positive about is that it's a very it's a very tight knit community. Yeah. And so everybody everybody knows everybody else. Most of the coaches that that work for us, you know, grew up in that community. Everybody knows them, which is one of the reasons I think we we were quite successful, with the surfing program and then with the with the program is because we had these coaches who were very well known and established and trusted in the community.
You know, they so that that sort of counts counts in in their favor. It'd be very hard for anyone to do anything and get away without everybody knowing that that that it was named who did it, if if you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:16] Unknown:
Are you If if something happens I I'm sure you are. But, like, have have you done any work with Fetti? Like, do you know about Fetti? Like, to me, it's like Fetti's just I and I haven't gotten to you know, I've played around with it with Renata and Obi, and it was just like, well, how can we actually implement this into certain communities where people aren't gonna, like, hold their own keys necessarily and everyone you know? And so to me, like, it seems like, the Surfer Kids and Bitcoin and Qazi would be an interesting, case study to see if Fetti would be a way to safely hold the Bitcoin for the the kids in the community and whatnot. Like, what are your thoughts on
[00:50:00] Unknown:
that? Yeah. I mean, we've we've we've used most we we try and use we try and use all the tools that that that that are released, and we try to we try to experiment experiment and play around with it. We, you know, we we have a we have a federation, a FedEx federation, but it's it's still very early stages. So that we we set that up, a year year and a half ago. It's it's cloud based. So there's there's a Bitcoin ERC Federation, which which you can join. You open a FEDI wallet, and you you you join the Bitcoin ERC Federation, and you, you know, you then have eCash.
Your your Sats if if you make a deposit into this wallet, your sets are are converted to eCash. And if you pay it out of the wallet to another lightning wallet, then it's, you know, converted back to sets. But but it looks like Bitcoin. It feels like Bitcoin. It works like Bitcoin. So we we've used Feddy. I think I think what becomes really interesting, you know, with Fedi, if you're thinking about the perspective you were thinking about just now from an adversarial start standpoint, what becomes interesting with Fedi is once you're able to actually run the federation yourself on hardware that you that you control, which which as which at the moment, as far as I know, is not possible.
But there have been there there have been, sort of updates in the last sort of month or two where where developers working on the Fedimint protocol have have communicated to me that they are working on an update where with the next I think I I don't know when Start nine is updating their their OS, but when they do, it'll have a Fedimint implementation on the Start Console, and you will be able to run a federation where the guardians actually control the hardware that that that runs the federation. So so, I mean, I've I've got I've got a start line start line here in the office. If we had two more or three more at different locations in the community,
[00:52:12] Unknown:
we could pretty much run our own Alright. Matt Hill. Come on. Matt Hill from start nine. Let's go. Let's get some some more Yeah. Servers over there.
[00:52:22] Unknown:
So that that that becomes very interesting because then, you know, then then then you really do make the community self sovereign in a way. The federation that we have at the moment, like I said, it's cloud based, so I don't know where that hardware is. It is it is basically I mean, obviously, it runs on different software, but but from our perspective, it it's it's very similar to a custodial lightning wallet Yeah. Where, you know, we're trusting we're trusting whoever runs the hardware and the servers. You know? But I know that I know that Fedi has been working on this. And when they launched, it it was quite clear that they had set a very, very difficult task for themselves.
It's not an easy thing to do from a from an engineering perspective to to write an implementation that allows you to do that, is is very, very difficult. So you know? But when when when it becomes available, it's gonna be, we will be one of the first ones to try it out. I mean, we we use the FEDI wallet very, very often in, in in in in the community. A lot of people are walking around with FEDI wallets. The backup the the the the way to back up the wallet is very useful. Allen Bits, we we played around with that. You know, our our kids reward system that we have at the moment, we we're running our second second version of that system.
This the second version is based on BD Space Server, but the previous version of the system was based on Allen Bits. And we've done other things with Allen Bits as well. We we try to play around with all the tools that are available, try and test as much as possible. I mean, when when we first started in in 2021, there was there there's way more available now than there was then. Yeah. There were there were far fewer Lightning wallets available. There were hardly any Lightning wallets that could show you fiat conversion rates to the local to the local currency in South Africa. Mhmm. In order in order for the shops to accept Bitcoiners payment in an easy way, we had to sort of, like, cobble together a few different things that weren't really meant to go together, but we put them together anyway, and it kinda worked.
You know, and things have just become better and better. And it's you know, looking looking back over the last four years, and and that's just the last four years, the improvement
[00:54:57] Unknown:
in the tools that are available are just insane. Which is crazy. Right? Like, I I think about Ellen Beds and lightning splits and everything and just, you know, I've done I I I've done a couple little summits where it's like, okay. Alright. Everybody hit this, you know, QR code if you wanna make a donation or value for value. And then anybody who is a participant in the summit would get instant splits into their wallet based on whatever. We've got 20 panel participants. You know, they each get whatever five percent of that thing. You can do that forever.
And and that's what's so cool, I think, because you don't have to wait for that middleman to, like, give you the payout, you know, if we're looking at whatever, Spotify or Apple or other licensing rights for creative things or even any kind of fundraising stuff. You know? It's just like you've gotta wait for the middleman, whether it's PayPal or Stripe or Venmo or whoever. And you're like, oh, I hope they actually give me the money. You know? And it's just this, like, instant thing. You know? And so, like, when we're doing a livestream or if we're doing a fundraising event, anything, like, when the kids or anybody who can see, like or or the coffee growers, you know, whatever. Like, holy cow. I'm getting sats in my wallet, like, in real time right now because people are zapping me, and I'm just getting this, like, percentage or fountain, you know, or whatever with the the podcasting two point o stuff. So I I think it it it's just like, you know, this is a whole new way for people to look at, like, how value can get transferred instantly over time without a middleman saying, what are you gonna use it for? Like, just this morning, I'm listening to somebody on Spaces, and they're trying to get some money out of their own bank account to go buy a boat for, you know, whatever, couple thousand dollars. And the teller's just like, well, what's it for? You have to tell me what the money's for. And he's like, I don't have to tell you shit. You know? Like, I'm who cares? It's for the new herpes experiment. You know? Whatever it is. It's just like Wow.
Why do they have any power over your money that you've given them to to hold for you? So I think when people start understanding and, unfortunately, we don't understand things until we have that pain point. You know? Until we've got that, like, oh, I can't use my money, or the Canadian government froze my bank accounts because of the trucker protest or whatever. You know? And it's just like, people are not willing to, like, take a look at the system until it actually really hurts them a lot. You know? And I and I feel like Yeah. When we're dealing with kids and, you know, these these folks in impoverished areas who the system has never served, first and foremost. It's completely, you know, hurt them.
They're just like, this is their lifeline to be able to participate in society. You know? This isn't just like a, oh, look. It's number go up, and I'm gonna invest in Bitcoin. It's like, no. I can actually do things that I never would be able to do. You know? And and I think the more we get stories out, like what you're doing with kids, people need to understand this because people in the the, you know, the the first world, they have no they have no clue. There's no clue. You know? And they don't understand, like, what do you mean you're not bankable? What do you mean women don't have property rights? What do you mean you can't send money from here to there kind of thing?
And so I think the more that we share stories like what you're doing and, you know, it can support people understanding why Bitcoin is essentially a medium of exchange. Yay. It's backed by a store of value, which is great. But, until they can kinda get those pain points, it's just it's like la la la la la still. I think 99 I mean, we're still like, our adoption rate is tiny, you know, for for Bitcoin adoption, you know. And I think the more that we tell real stories about how this is transforming people's lives, that's where people who are activists and change makers and environmentalists and human rights folks, they're gonna go, oh, I didn't know that's what was causing the problem of of our society, which is this, you know, rotten fiat.
You know?
[00:59:43] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, even even my I mean, I I've I've I've been living in South Africa my whole life. I grew up here. My family's been here for, sorry, I don't know, ten, twelve generations. So I'm I'm I'm very much I'm very much rooted in this in this country. But even even for me, you know, talking about Bitcoin with friends and family who come from a similar socioeconomic background as myself, once once I started the Bitcoin project in the township, all of a sudden, it was I mean, we've been working in that community for a long time, but we never we never touched on the topic of money and savings and and and that sort of thing. It was a it was just a a surfing program for kids. That's it. There was no.
So so once once we introduced Bitcoin into the equation there, I experienced, surprising surprising ways in which, people became excited about about this thing. You know, one of the one of the most surprising things to me was to see how excited people were to be able to buy, phone credit without having to, with with without having to physically walk to a corner store with cash, because that's that's how you buy phone credit if you don't have a bank account. So if if if you earn if you earn cash from your your your job, you come back home, you know, you're sitting at home, and you realize, oh, my phone credit just ran out.
I can't make a phone call. I can't send WhatsApp messages. The only way to then top up your phone with credit is to take that cash you earned and physically walk to the store where you then buy a piece of paper with a PIN number on it to recharge your phone. And and all of a sudden, we could give people, money, which they could hold digitally on their device. I know it's custodial, but, you know Mhmm. Whatever. The point is the point is they could transact from their device digitally and recharge their phone with credit digitally. And that was just a mind blowing experience. I remember these videos we we did in the early days. It was it was one of the most effective ways to demonstrate Bitcoin within five minutes, to a person who had no idea, what it was. It's to say, hey. Look.
I can buy phone cards for you using this, magic Internet money. And the moment you demonstrated that, they were on board. Yeah. Because it was it was something new that they've never been able to do before. And and and it's like you're solving
[01:02:44] Unknown:
instantly, like you said, within five minutes, the fact that you can demonstrate that. Like, we know that time is the most irreplaceable thing in our lives. Right? And so when you know, I remember learning about remittances in El Salvador. And, okay, cool. We're gonna, you know, send, you know, grandma a hundred dollars worth of of, you know, money. But then she has to get out of her house, go take a bus, go to two hours, go to the Western Union. Now she's only gonna get $93 because of the fees. Now she's got cash in her hands where people clob her over the head and steal her cash. And so that's like a five hour transaction just for her to get less than what the actual value is that's transacted from her, you know, nephew or whoever in in wherever the money is coming from. And when I started hearing about the stories, I was like, oh my goodness.
You know? Like, how what is the multiple of that? How many thousands, tens of thousands, millions, perhaps billions of people have to do that on a daily basis? And then you think about how many hours of human productivity, human satisfaction are wasted on just that simple transaction of just getting some value from, you know, point a to point b kind of thing. And then what are the security risks involved in that that loop? You know? And I think that's something that for me, again, like, you know, that was one of the big moments and not understanding because, you know, as somebody who's bankable, somebody I can, you know, get an app for Bank of America or whatever my my bank is, I'm gonna send some money. I still they may not approve it, you know, but I can send it. But, like, you can't do that in every country.
You know? And and it's just,
[01:04:34] Unknown:
it's Yeah. The security issue is is one of the big concerns. Walk walking around with cash. I mean, people people gets people get stabbed for for for $5.
[01:04:46] Unknown:
Yeah. Or your shoes. I like your shoes. I'm gonna kill you for your shoes. You know? And so it it's it's a scary thing. I mean, what do you think about, again, like, obviously, we've got opportunities to put these, you know, apps on our wall on our phones and stuff. You can delete the app and then just put it on when you need to use it sort of thing. So it's like if somebody, you know, hits you over the head, you can be like, well, I don't have any Bitcoin. I'm just whatever. I look at all my phone stuff or look at my logins. Like, how do you help, you know, the younger generation understand how to secure their Bitcoin in a way that's, like, if somebody gets a hold of their phone, they're not gonna just all of a sudden get all their, you know, all their sats.
[01:05:37] Unknown:
I mean, we we encourage, taking self custody as soon as it's appropriate. So I would say all the all the coaches that that earn enough of a salary where they're actually able to save, are saving using using hardware wallets, and they're they have their seed phrases backed up. So we we try and be as responsible as as possible. I mean, we don't try. We are as responsible as possible. Mistakes have happened, and mistakes will probably happen again. It's unavoidable. But it's it's a it's a matter of it's a matter of prioritizing education, above above all else.
So this is and not so much anymore. My my role has changed quite a bit over the last, sort of three, four years of running this project. But particularly in the first two or three years, my my my my main priority was to to impart as much knowledge of Bitcoin and how it works, especially from the perspective of how do you how do you safely use and store it to to the senior to the senior coaches, so that they can then, in turn, impart that knowledge to the the more junior coaches and to the shop owners. Because there are a considerable number of, business owners who have been, you know, accepting sets as payment
[01:07:22] Unknown:
over the last three, four years. About that. Like, because you're you know, one of the things when we were you know, you talked about, like, let's talk about what a circular economy looks like where you're at and how does that, how does that grow and evolve. Right? Because the kids are obviously like, yeah, I've got sats. I wanna spend them. Are they, like, are they actively out there orange peeling the the vendors and the the shop owners so they can be like, I wanna get some sodas or I wanna get a pair of shorts or a surfboard or whatever with my SATs? Like, are they actively out there trying to help the the vendors and shop owners understand Bitcoin?
[01:08:01] Unknown:
Yes. I wouldn't say the kids are doing that, the older ones maybe, the senior coaches. I don't I I've I've never done any of the onboarding in the township, community itself. I've left that up to the coaches, the ones who earn their salaries and SATs. You know, I I I do the fundraising for the organization, and I pay their salaries. And and the salaries that we pay in Bitcoin, you could kind of call that the the the the pistons of the engine that drives the circular economy. There's other there's other things that we do that that that revolves around that, but that's the core of the engine.
You know, as we we pay ten ten full time salaries and and, you know, roughly roughly 10 part time salaries. And so just through the just through the salaries that we're paying, you know, there's anywhere from anywhere between a 200 people who have direct daily exposure choosing it on a daily basis. Because each one of those coaches who earn a salary in Bitcoin have maybe two or three dependents, you know, wife or a girlfriend, one or two children. And then they're spending their sets at businesses that they've onboarded, you know, little corner stores where you can buy the basic groceries Mhmm. Little little takeaway food restaurants, that sort of thing.
So, you know, it's between thirty and forty businesses. Each business has between two and two or three owners. You know, that's that's close to a hundred people. Coaches plus dependents, that's probably another fifty, sixty people. So it's it's it's anywhere between a 200 people who have have have direct, daily exposure to using BitGo. And that's basically what a circular economy looks like in the beginning. Obviously, you wanted to grow from there. So there's other things that we do as well that we encourage the the flow of sets. We we have a we have a side project where we are paying, we are paying residents of the community, to clean up.
Cool. So we'll come in and we'll we'll paint we'll paint selected Shacks with, with the logos of Bitcoin companies. That attracts a lot of attention. And then in return for painting the shack, we then offer offer the people who live there, look. We'll paint your shack, and then we'll pay you a weekly stipend, but you have to make sure that your place is clean. So pick up pick up the pollution, clean up the rubbish. If you don't clean up, no payment. Wow. And then they they earn yeah. They they then earn that stipend in Sats. And the idea is that they they spend it as as Bitcoin. You know, no conversion to fiat. Uh-huh. Obviously, we can't obviously, we can't control that a %. But if we do find out that they're converting it to fiat, then we'll go talk to them or, you know, check-in with them or whatever. They can also save it. Some some of them do save it, but most of them would spend it, into the circular economy.
So so things like that. I mean, there's there's other stuff that we do that contribute to the circular economy. Like, we we get a lot of clothes that are donated to the charity, because, I mean, we're we're a well well established nonprofit. You know, every everybody in in the in the surrounding city knows about us. We're we're based in Mossel Bay, which is a city of about a 50,000 people. So it's not a it's not a it's not a small insignificant town. It's, you know, it's a it's a large town in South African context. So we get we get a lot of donated clothes over the years, and what we'll do with with that is we we actually sell the clothes for sets. But when I say sell, I mean, people people can can literally get, a t shirt for next to nothing.
They they they come in and they'll pay, like, you know, if we convert convert it to US dollars, they'll pay, like, 20, 20 US dollar cents for for a t shirt, but which is basically nothing. But they have to convert that to Sats first at a lightning 80 ATM that we have in our, facility. And so at in in terms of money, it's costing them nothing. But in terms of time and education, it is costing them something. They have to sit down, download a wallet Mhmm. Learn how to make two transactions, and then they can buy buy the clothes. And and in that way, we kind of also filter out people who are, you know, prepared to do something in return for getting something. And it's not much. You don't have to do much. You just have to sit there for twenty minutes.
And if you have 20 US dollar cents or $1 you know, if if you walk in there with $1, you can basically buy an entire wardrobe. It's not about the amount of money that we're charging. It's about the fact that you're learning about a different form of money, you're learning how to transact in this new form of money, and you're gaining experience with using it. And so things like that contribute to the circular economy as well. There's all kinds of ways of doing this. There's not there's not one perfect way to build a circular economy, but it all comes down to the same thing, which is you want you want Sats to flow peer to peer in the local economy, and you you wanna spend and I think this is the most important thing that many people perhaps don't understand about circular economies is that when when building a circular economy, the key question there's there's two key questions.
The first key question is who's gonna be spending the sites?
[01:14:04] Unknown:
Right.
[01:14:06] Unknown:
Because that's always the hard part. It's easy to onboard a merchant to accept the credit payment.
[01:14:11] Unknown:
Do you think so? Like, I I've not found that to be true. I've found that to be very difficult to onboard merchants because many merchants It's relatively easy. You've gotta do capital gain depending on what jurisdiction you're in, especially here in The States. Like, you know, if you're accepting Bitcoin as payment and, you know, then you wanna transfer it or turn it into fiat or whatever it might be. Like, there's an accounting, there's account an accounting hurdle for them to get over that is like, what do you mean I have to pay capital gains on something that was just like a transaction? And so instead of Yeah. Okay. Cool. I made $10 on a T shirt or, you know, whatever it might be. So so you think it's it's more difficult to get the spenders to participate in the circular economy than it is to get the vendors. The spenders and the vendors.
[01:15:03] Unknown:
I mean, speaking speaking from the perspective of a a predominantly cash based economy, which is where we operate. I understand I understand that in different contexts, it it will be different, but capital gains tax is not something I mean, strictly speaking in South Africa, you do have to pay capital gains tax on on on Bitcoin appreciation because it's it's classified as an asset. But we operate in we operate in an economy that's entirely cash based, and so reporting reporting doesn't happen anyway. So nobody really cares about that.
[01:15:40] Unknown:
It's And that's what's so interesting. Right? Because, like, your whole situation of creating a circular economy is completely different than what we would do here in Boulder, Colorado or what they would do in Berlin No. They're in the or whatever. You know? And so so I think for people who are interested in, you know, any type of adoption and circular economy, you have to understand what's the lay of the land and landscape of your regulatory
[01:16:07] Unknown:
environment. What's what's the context? Yeah. I mean, I when I say it's easy to onboard a merchant, I mean, it's it's relatively easy compared to convincing someone to spend their Bitcoin. That's that's that's more difficult. But it it becomes easier to convince someone to spend their Bitcoin if everything they earn is in Bitcoin.
[01:16:28] Unknown:
Do you help people with, like, the concept of, like, spend and replace
[01:16:32] Unknown:
for the day? You know? Well, the thing is we we don't we don't have to because a % of salaries are paid in Bitcoin. So there's nothing
[01:16:39] Unknown:
there's nothing to replace with. They they don't Well, but that that's your people that you're paying. But, like, new people who are coming on, you know, who are just like, I'll just hodl a little Bitcoin over here. They're not necessarily getting paid in Bitcoin. How how what's your what's your philosophy or, you know, support for them? Because a lot of people, even here in The States, obviously, and everywhere, they're just like, what do you mean I'm not spending my Bitcoin? I'm gonna huddle, huddle, huddle, huddle. And I was like, okay, guys.
[01:17:07] Unknown:
Hello? I mean Yeah. Yeah. I know I know of people who do that. I don't I don't know how effective that is. I've never I've I've never in my life bought Bitcoin. I it it's the only thing that I own. I I don't own anything else other than Bitcoin, but I've never bought Bitcoin because the only Bitcoin I've ever received has been as a form of income. So, personally personally, I've never I've never had to spend and replace because whenever I spend, there's only one thing that I can spend, and that's and that's Bitcoin. I've, you know, I I just so I've I've never I've never done that. I I know that it's it's a thing, and I know many people do it.
I don't have experience with it, and I don't I mean, when I talk to people, I talk to them from from my limited experience of building a circular economy in a very particular environment. Yeah. I have no I have no experience with doing this sort of thing in other environments, only in this particular environment. And in this particular environment, the the the key thing that has made what we do successful is the fact that we pay salaries in Bitcoin. If we if if I had to do what I'm doing now and it was a case of, you know, spend and replace or whatever the case may be, I'm not sure it would have worked in this context. I'm not you know, other contexts might might be different. I know that there are other projects where circular economy circular economies work. I mean, we have one down the road in Witsand, which is a South African town. Socioeconomically, it's completely different from from from what we are doing.
They've been they've also we're very well established. They've been going for about three years. It's only two hours down the road from where we are. We get along with them very well. I know the the the founder of that project very well. We're good friends. We assist one another. But, socioeconomically, it's two completely different environments. One is a much more privileged upper middle class neighborhood. Mhmm. We are obviously an impoverished township. And where they are, they've had to find different ways to encourage people to spend their Bitcoin and much more in line with the spend and replace, approach or other approaches like that.
But I I don't have I don't have any experience with that. The experience that I have is is with this, you know, you know, charity community charity based organization where you you use the fact that all your salaries are paid in Bitcoin as the base layer for for what powers the circular economy. Yeah. And so that's the first most important question is who's spending the Sats? The second question that you have to ask yourself when building a circular economy is when I make this payment in Sats, where are the Sats going? Because if you're paying if you're pay and and and and and services like Bitrefill are very useful, super useful. We've used them a lot. But the fact of the matter is that does not contribute to building a circular economy. It's an off ramp out of a circular economy. Exactly. It's not it's not actually building up the local circular economy. It's a way for people to feel more comfortable with accepting Bitcoin in the circular economy because they know there's an off ramp. Yeah. But if you're onboarding a bunch of people and all they're doing is spending on you haven't actually built a circular economy because the the SaaS has to flow between people within the community.
And that's that's normally the tricky part is to is to is to make people understand that it's not just about onboarding merchants. It's about getting people to spend at those merchants regularly, and then getting those merchants to not simply take the Sats and off ramp it out of Bitcoin into fiat, but then to take the Sats that they receive from the people spending at their businesses and continue the circular spending habit, where they are then spending on another business in the same community, and the Sats flow within the community in a circular fashion. And it's it's a little bit more complicated than what it seems on on the surface. There's there's there's more there's more to it, but it's it's kind of it's kinda subtle.
And it's not it's not something that that is obvious at first sight.
[01:21:33] Unknown:
It's it's not. And I think for obviously, for new people, you know, and even myself, you know, because I'm still bridging fiat and, the Bitcoin world. You know? I'm not in a full Bitcoin standard in my life because of certain, organizations that have to deal with it only will take fiat as payment. Certainly, there's ways around that. I could get the fold card, and I can do, you know, like you said, bit refill and all this stuff. But, you know, once you truly get to that more pristine area of a circular economy that only uses Bitcoin as the medium of exchange, and nobody's trying to off ramp into whatever x y z fiat currency, you know, that's it's so foreign to people.
You know? It's not like a normal way to think about stuff because we're so ingrained in and and indoctrinated into this other world, this fiat world. And, and so it does take time. And so to have these little micro economies, like what you're doing and what Bitcoin Berlin is doing and what El Zonte was doing with Bitcoin Beach, it's still there's fiat there. There's no, like, this is only Bitcoin here. You know? Like, I don't know any communities just yet who are, you know, have got the walled garden and only transact with Bitcoin. It's kind of, you know and and I I don't wanna dilute the potency of Bitcoin, but it's just kind of like if you were in a a video game. Right? And you only play with a certain type of token within that game. And and it's like, well, that's all you use. You're using, you know, Bitcoin ecosi tokens or, you know, whatever.
People aren't used to that yet in the real world. They might be used to it in digital world, you know. And but so to to to bring it out into, you know, humanity two point o kind of thing is it's just not familiar yet because we're so used to wanting to have that backstop or that insurance policy that we think like, okay. I'm gonna off ramp and sell my Bitcoin and go over here and then, okay, I'll do spend and replace or whatever. So it's like it's not a, it's not a well established field yet for people to feel comfortable where the circular economies are gonna, support them. Because it could also feel pretty insular, you know. And it's kinda like, well, is this the only place I get to use my wealth and my worth? You know, is, okay. I'm gonna buy a T shirt and a pupusa and, you know, a solar panel or something. You know? Whatever it is with Bitcoin. And then you're like, well, I can't do anything else because nobody wants my you know? It's just it's a it's a I mean, we're so early, I guess. You know, a lot of people say that, and I really believe that we're still so early. But, like, what you're doing, you know, is is you're you're jumping you're leapfrogging over some of the bridges, you know, and you're helping these kids. And by the fact that you're paying people in Bitcoin, a lot of people don't pay in Bitcoin. You know? It's just kinda like, okay. I'll pay in fiat, and you can go buy some Bitcoin.
So the fact that that's kind of like what you're doing, I think, is is you're a revolutionary.
[01:24:56] Unknown:
Well, I mean, we didn't come up with the idea. We just copied it from someone else. But,
[01:25:01] Unknown:
Everybody does.
[01:25:03] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I think it's also I think it's also important to to point out that that that that the model I the model I described is an ideal. Yeah. It's not it's not something that that we are going to achieve tomorrow or even next year. There there there's going to be a a prevalence of fiat, in the circular economies
[01:25:29] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:25:30] Unknown:
For as long as the fiat still has any value. You know? And so kind of what what we're doing is we're trying to introduce as many people to Bitcoin through the circular economy model. Yeah. And using that model to build to build trust in the system, I think that's that I think that's the one thing that people miss. It's like, but why why would you wanna do this? And and the point the point of a circular economy, for me well, one of one of the reasons you you would wanna do this is because I mean, it's it's it's such a basic thing. Everybody uses WhatsApp. Everybody uses Facebook or x or whatever the case may be. Nobody nobody has a clue how these things work in the background. Like, nobody nobody knows that you know, if if I'm if I'm sitting here and I'm sending a message to a friend who's living in the same town, and they don't understand how WhatsApp works, they might not even they might not even know that that message is traveling across the Internet, across the ocean to a server that's located in a different con on a different continent, and then traveling back to this continent and and and being delivered to their phone. People don't think about that. They simply type the message, they hit send, and they trust that the person on the other side will get the message and see the photo or hear the voice note that they sent to them. Mhmm. And and they trust the system because they've been using it every day for as long as they can remember.
And this is kind of what we're trying to do with Bitcoin, is make it so familiar that people just trust it and go, oh, yeah. Well, I'll just pay you in Bitcoin. Of course. You know, I've been doing that forever. So there we go. You know, I don't because you're not you're not going to explain, you know, expubs and UTXOs
[01:27:34] Unknown:
to every single person. It's just not gonna happen. Yeah. And they don't care. Like, it it No. Perfect example. Should have to. Nobody cares. Like, I don't care how the swift network works. I don't care how the Internet works. I don't care how mobile networks work. All I care about is if I'm trying to transfer a message or some money or whatever it is, that it gets where I want it to go quickly. You know? And and I don't need to know cryptography or any I I don't need to know anything. Like, I just wanna know that, like, the the end goal has been accomplished. And I think that's most of us. You know? And and I want people to understand, like, Bitcoin doesn't have to be this thing where you have to understand all the background. I mean, sure, if you're, you know, interested in that and geek out on it, go for it. But, like, there is a level it's like this weird trustless system, but you do have to kinda trust it in a way too.
[01:28:30] Unknown:
So it's like Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, some a certain number of people will need to understand it within the context of a project like this. Yeah. Certainly, the person leading the project will have to understand it. I'm fascinated by it. I'm obsessed with it. I've done as much as I can to study and understand as much as possible. Like I said, I'm not a developer, I don't write code, but I've probably learned more about computers because of Bitcoin than I otherwise ever would have. Totally know, right? Yeah, and it's just because I find the whole system so fascinating. So, I do understand what an X Pub and a UTX are, and blah blah blah, and all those things, but you know what? And a certain number of the people who run the project with me will have to understand that, but not not not even nearly the majority of the people in the community where we're introducing Bitcoin
[01:29:26] Unknown:
will understand all the complexities. They will need to understand the basics. If you're saving in Bitcoin, this is your seed phrase, make sure it safe. If you lose this, you lose everything. Right. If that is And you're your own bank. There's no customer support that's gonna, like, get you out of your your thing. I mean and I think that's something I I mean, I don't know. I'd be curious. And I and, you know, I know we're over a little our time a little. I have a couple more questions for you. Like, obviously, you know, as as hardcore Bitcoiners, you know, we're, like, interested in self sovereignty. We're interested in hold your own keys, not your keys, not your cheese, dah dah dah. You know? And then there's this whole other group of people who were like, I'm just gonna buy an ETF, or I'm just gonna go buy MicroStrategy, or I'm gonna do whatever, and I think that I own Bitcoin.
You don't own Bitcoin. You know? Is that, like do people understand the difference between what they think is exposure to Bitcoin versus what is actually huddling and holding your own keys, like, where you're at?
[01:30:29] Unknown:
I mean, we make as much effort as we possibly can to make sure that people understand that difference. So we we do we'll do we'll do monthly workshop with the coaches. You know, they recently did a workshop, for example, where they would, where where our senior coaches would would run through the difference between Blink Wallet, for example, as a fully custodial wallet, Aqua Wallet as a federated self custody. Because, yes, you do own private keys, but the private keys are for, for UTXO that UTXO is that's on the liquid blockchain. You you own liquid Bitcoin. And it's not the same as the Bitcoin blockchain because the liquid blockchain is is it's a it's a federated model, whereas Bitcoin is a completely decentralized model. So there's trade offs. So we we you know? And and then we run through the whole exercise of, you know, if you're gonna stack Sats, you can do it in Blink, but here's the trade offs. You can do it with Aqua, here's the trade offs. You can do it on chain, but then if you're creating a bunch of UTXOs, there's that trade off too because, you know, the fees is gonna cost you an arm and a leg in the future if you've stacked, you know, a hundred small UTXOs. So we we we try we try and, we try and do as much as we can to to educate our senior team. So this these are the people that you know, there's, like, maybe four, five people who who who are at the most senior level, together with myself who oversee, you know, the rest of the operation. We we try and make sure that they understand as much as possible, and then and then that knowledge hopefully trickles down, where where it's needed.
But, yes, they certainly understand the difference, between a custodial wallet and a and a self custody wallet. They they definitely understand the difference, because it's important. Like, that's it's it's you would be irresponsible to to introduce Bitcoin into a person's life and not to explain the trade offs to the extent that that person can understand it. Sure. Obviously.
[01:32:38] Unknown:
Yeah. And, obviously, it's like we wanna you know, depending on who our audiences are I mean, anything. It's like how what's the most simple way that we can explain this versus that? What are the trade offs, etcetera? And so, again, like, a lot of people are not interested in that personal responsibility of holding their own keys. They're happy to have a a password and a password manager, and they hope they can call Coinbase or some other company and get the the things going. But I'm like, if you need to, like, literally get out of Dodge real quick, like, you're not gonna have access. You have paper Bitcoin. You don't have Bitcoin. You know? If you and so I think for a lot of people, it's important to give them kind of a blended experience, you know, and just be like, hey. If you're not totally comfortable putting your whole stash in self custody just yet, like, let's see what it looks like for, you know, $20 or $50 or hundred dollars, you know, and so that you can understand. And then how do you recover things if you think you've lost it, whatnot?
It's a new way of thinking just like email and .coms and at symbols and all this stuff was a new way of thinking. You know, twenty five years ago, when the Internet was kinda coming up, people were just like, what is what do you mean my business needs a website? What do you mean I'm supposed to have an email? You know? And people didn't. They would just reject it. You know? And they're like, that's just some newfangled nonsense. You know? But now, of course, it's ubiquitous. Any business has a website. Any human who's pretty much an adult who's working in the world has an email. You know? And you're not like, this is it just it's sort of a normal thing. And so I think, you know, over time, we'll we'll we'll be able to support people understanding, like, it's okay to hold your own keys. And, yeah, you have to have them backed up. Yeah. You might go take a piece of metal and bury it in your yard or something like that so that, like, your dog didn't eat up the piece of paper or something like that. So I don't know. I just feel like it's definitely a work in progress. Can I I I and I know, again, I wanna be respectful of your time?
And I'm gonna ask you this last question, and I asked you this before we went live. You know, on your on your Twitter profile, it said, you know, recovering addict. And, you know, I've been in a situation with some stuff in my life too. Like, do you care to talk about that and perhaps give some people some inspiration about your life and your story and your background of of how you got to where you are right now?
[01:35:15] Unknown:
Yeah. Sure. And, that's I mean, I I'm quite open about it. You know, I, when it it's funny because I I was introduced to to Bitcoin at pretty much the same time that I walked into recovery from drug addiction for the first time. Both of those things Wow. Both of those things happened in 02/2013. And, I mean, I just I mean, this is this is why the the whole idea of, you know, personal responsibility Yeah. In the context of Bitcoin just makes complete sense Yeah. To me because I learned through recovery from drug addiction that there is only one way, to to solve an addict's problem, and that is if if that person themselves wants to recover.
I've I've been, you know, I've I've I've been I've been part of the local, local 12 step, meeting for for the last, I don't know what's it been now, thirteen years. And I've seen I've seen people walk in there with mothers crying, fathers crying, you know, husbands, wives crying because they just don't know what else to do. This person is ruining their own life. They're ruining the lives of the people around them. They've fucked up everything. They stole from everyone. They're an absolute mess. And the family is sitting there and just asking, like, please help us. What do we do? And as as as as harsh as it is, the answer to that question is there's nothing I can do for you if that person who you're here with, the addict themselves, don't want recovery.
If they don't want recovery and they're not willing to take responsibility for this problem, there's there's nothing that you can do. They have to be the ones who decide. I want to stop. And if they do that, then, you know, there's a way. There's there's there's a way to live clean. So this this idea of personal responsibility is, is is a is a core, a core part of my, my life. I I I don't know I don't know if I'd be alive if it wasn't for that understanding because, obviously, I had to go through a process where I had to take responsibility and stop blaming everything and everyone else. Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm getting high because of this. I'm using because of this. You know? This person did that to me. You know? That that person did that to me. It's everybody else's fault except mine. Yeah.
And and so this this I this this idea of extreme personal responsibility in Bitcoin just makes absolute sense to me. That's why Yeah. That's that's that's one of the reasons why, you know, I I I I don't wanna say this in the wrong way because it it it can come off like you you might you know, it's easy to misinterpret. But you often hear people say that they came across Bitcoin, and it didn't make sense to them, and and they forgot about it, and they only came back years later. When when I first came across Bitcoin, I I didn't understand what it was straight away.
But when when I read about it in that in that Bitcoin magazine, that my friend gave me and I read about it, the concept made sense to me right off the bat because I looked at this and I was like, oh, wow. So this is a system where you take extreme personal responsibility. Mhmm. Yeah. That's the only way that that that that people actually like, we don't like to admit it, but that's actually the only way that people can live in a healthy functioning society. Like Yeah. There is there is no other way. The moment you start handing over responsibility, you create the incentive for centralized control and corruption.
And, ultimately, at the end of the day, there is no system of of authority that works, properly, that involves an authority that is not internal. Whenever you have external authority enforcing rules, you've created incentive and circumstance for corruption. And so I I didn't I didn't I I I really did not understand the technical details behind it, but the the the the ethos and the concept made made sense to me straight away because it was like, yeah. This is this is the only obvious obviously, this is the only real solution. Everything else is kinda like a band aid. Like, yeah, you can, you know, you can you can disincentivize people from committing crimes by having a police force and by having rules and laws that that that say, if you do this, then this is gonna happen, and you're gonna go to jail. You can disincentivize people from doing the wrong thing, But you're never going to eliminate that wrong thing from a person's life with that disincentive if the authority that enforces that is external rather than internal.
[01:40:52] Unknown:
Exactly. It's like extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation. Right? And you wanna have and that's where true growth happens. That's where true learning happens. That's where true transformation happens. And I think it's like a it's a developmental spiral. Right? You know, when you're younger, it's kind of like, oh, my mom did this or the society did this or and you wanna put the the the blame as you, you know, say on everybody else except you because there was a circumstance or there was an experience or there was a whatever. But once you kinda hit a point of maturity in your life, you know, in your spiritual evolution, you realize, like, wow. It's all me.
It's all me, and it's all me plus God, universe, spirit, whatever you call that greater, you know, life force that, you know, I I say God. And so until you can get to that that true point of self ownership, like, you're always gonna be at the whim of something outside of you, and you will be powerless forever, in my opinion. You know? And and until you can say, like, it you know, like, however I my perspective is on the situation, whatever my behavior is on the situation, you know, until you can take complete, like, every single micro moment is yours, you are gonna be, at the whim of something outside of you.
You know? And I think that's what's that's what's interesting about Bitcoin, you know, because it's just, like, it's just math. It's nothing. You know? Literally, it's Yeah. It's math. Yeah. It's truly just math. You know? It takes
[01:42:36] Unknown:
the it it takes the, it takes the it removes the it removes the circumstance that allows for for centralized corruption. It it it just it just removes that out of the picture. And and this is what this is what a lot of people still don't understand is that they they think that, yeah, but if we just get the right people into positions of power. And it's like, no. This is this is a feature of human nature. It is a it is a feature of human nature that if you have power over another person, and you are the one who becomes responsible for their decision making process, you are you are susceptible to corruption. And it is a it is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of people who will not succumb to that temptation.
And those are not the kind of people who will ever find themselves in positions of power because they don't want that kind of power Exactly. In in the first place. And so, I don't know if I don't know if a society like this is possible. I think probably it's not. I think probably you will always have some people who just choose to hand over their responsibility. You know? It's unfortunately unfortunately, the success rate of recovery, from addiction is very low. And that is because the vast majority of people don't want to take responsibility for their problems. They avoid it specifically because it's difficult. It's very difficult. It's it's the difficult choice to say, look, I know this feels fucked up, but what did I do to contribute to the situation rather than it's his fault, it's her fault, it's their fault, blah blah blah. So I don't know if a society like this is is possible.
And I think it's slightly idealistic not slightly. I think it's it's very, very idealistic and naive to think that every single person on the planet will one day be fully responsible for themselves, and we will live in a utopian world where everybody takes full personal responsibility. I don't I don't think that's gonna happen. But if we can create systems that function according to those principles and understandings, it will vastly improve the world that we live in. And Bitcoin is such a system. And there are other systems like that that we can build that we can build too. And and I think the the the the recovery program that that I'm a part of, which is a twelve twelve step recovery program, is one such system. It's a completely decentralized system that is that is there are there are guidelines, so to speak, but there is no central authority that enforces those guidelines. Right. And and it's it's it's it's part it's voluntary participation.
[01:45:31] Unknown:
Yes. And you know that if you go to a 12 step meeting for whatever, alcohol, eating, gambling, drugs, whatever, spending anywhere on planet Earth, you know that there's, like, a formula for the most part that they follow for a particular meeting. And it's like, these are the ethos. These are the values. This It's how we do it. We sponsor, etcetera. And and it's very, it's amazing because you can just show up wherever and just know that you're at least with a group of like minded hearted people who have a certain similar goal. Though, let me ask you this, and this is something that, you know, I created I I did 12 step for alcohol, you know, nine, eight years ago.
I thought the program's great. I think the groups are great. I think it's, ultra powerful peer to peer. The one thing that got me in in it, pushed me out of the rooms was to you know, well, it's two things. You know? I I got to the point where I was like, yay. You can lead a group because you've been here for a year, you know, whatever. And I showed up, and it's like my women's, you know, AA group. And I brought some music in. I'm a DJ. And I'm like, yay. I'm gonna be the leader for today, and I'm gonna do my little thing. We're gonna play some good music and move our bodies around, and then we'll do our typical, you know, format of how the thing was. Everybody looked at me like I was just evil that I brought music into the group. And I was just like, you guys, like, when you have, like, your vibrations are high in music, could it could instead of just all of us sitting here complaining about what happened in the past, like, let's think about our future and, you know, about the beauty of the future, you know? And so that was sort of a, like, that was a smackdown for me for sure. And I felt like, gosh. Are you guys really attached to being wounded?
You know? And and so that made me feel a little concerned. And then the second part, and and I'd be curious again from your perspective, when you have an identity. Right? Like, for me, I I I identify as a child of god, period. Nothing is above that. Everything else is sort of like little colorations of that. And so when you go into, you know again, just I'll just use my life experience as an example with AA. You know, you're supposed to say, hi. My name is Valerie. I'm an alcoholic and la la la. Like and I wouldn't say that. Like, I was just like, I'm I'm Valerie. Nice to meet you. You know? And I'm somebody, obviously, who used alcohol as a self soothing mechanism because I had so much pain and trauma, and I didn't know how to deal with shit. But, like, I don't identify as the the thing. Like you know? And so the word addict or alcoholic or any of the the labels, like, I always believe people either rise above rise up to a label or they fall down to the label? Like, what's been your experience with with labels? And I I wanna be quick about this. Obviously, I don't wanna take up too much time. But, like, do you feel like that's something that is a a limiting, you know, use of letters for people's, you know, in your in your life, in your personal journey?
[01:48:50] Unknown:
I mean, it could be. It it could be. So I guess it's a personal thing. I I I guess to your first point, there's for me for me, the under it's it's it's important to to remember that I should not confuse the, what's I forget I forget the saying. But so so these these meetings, these 12 step meetings are made up of human beings. Mhmm. And and and and they're they're imperfect, just as we all are. Yeah. And and so, you know, many of these meetings are run-in ways that I might not find agreeable. The meeting that I go to, I've been on the verge of not attending that meeting anymore many, many, many times because I don't agree with the people in the meeting.
[01:49:39] Unknown:
And and this is the nature of of of of the the this is human nature. You know? Yeah. So any social meeting. Any it doesn't even have to be recovery meeting. Just be like, yeah. I've devoted, like, my pottery meeting or something. Yeah. And so
[01:49:53] Unknown:
and so I I I remind myself of the fact that the the the fellowship is is one thing, and that's the people who are sitting there in the meeting and making up the meeting. And then and there's personalities, and there's histories, and there's biases, and there's all kinds of shit that comes with that. You know? And then and then there's then there's the guidelines itself. And those guidelines are are universal spiritual principles that Yeah. That are are true across space and time and have been, as far as I'm concerned, for for forever.
It's not something that that was created by NA. It's not something that was created by any particular religion. It's something that there's a common thread that runs through most spiritual traditions, and and these these guidelines tie into that. One of the one of the fascinating things for me about about the 12 step program, is that, at least in NA, which which is Narcotics Anonymous, not not Alcoholics Anonymous, at least in NA as far as I know, it allows the individual to to come to an to come to their own understanding of these principles. You're not supposed to ever tell someone else this is what you should believe, this is what you should not believe. Yeah. Because, again, that's external authority.
That is not me forming my own understanding through my own personal experience that this is in fact true. I might come to the same understanding as someone else, but if I don't go through my own experience to form that understanding, it's an external authority that's telling me what to believe and what not to believe. And so I think I think with a lot of meetings, there might be things that people say and do that that could turn people away, and I've heard I've heard that story many, many times. Sometimes it's a matter of, orthodox religion coming into the meetings, and people get turned away because of that.
You know, people confuse the spiritual tradition with a religious tradition, And then people who are not religious get turned away from the meeting because they think it's a religious where it's not supposed to be. Right. Yeah. That's a very, very familiar story as well. And so I just I just have to remind myself again and again that the people who are at the meeting and their response to what I'm saying and doing, that's not the guidelines. The guidelines is much bigger than that. And so I think it's useful to to to to try and remember not not to confuse the two, which is very difficult, admittedly.
The other thing is, you know, the label of addict is yeah. I guess if you I guess if you identify I mean, I still call myself an addict, but I do that not because not because it's a label that I identify with. I do it because it reminds me where I came from. And I do it because it reminds me how easy it could be to go back there if I don't practice certain spiritual principles. It's not when I when I when I sit down and say, hey. How's it? My name is Armand. I'm an addict. I'm not saying I'm an addict in the sense that this is something that I that I identify with. I'll never be able to get over it. Blah blah blah. I'm saying it because I know where I came from, and I know how dangerous it is to forget where I came from. And I know how dangerous it how dangerous it can be to think that it's impossible for me to go back there. Right. Because I've I've seen people relapse.
I've seen people die because of relapse. I've seen people lose everything, come into recovery, and then lose everything again because they think that, oh, this is not a dangerous thing for me anymore. I can now use successfully. And the second time they try that experiment, it's worse than the first time, And they lose even more than they did the first time. So I wanna make sure that I don't put myself under any illusions that it's okay for me to start using again. You know, I I I've got nothing against drugs. I know people who use them successfully, and it's a lot of fun. It looks like it's a lot of fun, at least. I just know that for whatever reason, I can't do that. I I don't need to know why. I just know that I tried that experiment millions of times, and it was never successful. Not once. Not once that I used drugs successfully. It was always a fuck up. So I know I can't go back there. And if I have to identify identify as an addict just to remind myself to not go back there, that's fine by me. It's Yeah. It's not a it's not a label that I that I, you know, I it's not a label that I carry as a definitive statement on who or what I am. There is, as you say, there are more fundamental things than that. I am not fundamentally an addict. Fundamentally, fundamentally, I would probably call myself similar to what you call yourself, a child of God, although I probably use different words.
But fundamentally, you know, at the end of the day, the only thing that it that that I can fundamentally call myself is that. The the the label addict is a super it's a superficial addict. It's just a it's just a reminder to tell myself, you better not you better not go back there. Because that that was that was really fucked up. That was not a nice place to be. And it it it's it's no matter no matter what you think, it's not worth it's not worth risking going back there.
[01:55:42] Unknown:
And and I think that's super duper important, and I love that because, again, we all have our own, sticky notes to remind ourselves of, like, don't take the left path. Go over here to the right. It's safer kinda thing. And so if it's like if we need to have, like, a big neon sign that reminds us of that, like, whatever that looks like, it's important that we understand that for our own self. You know? And so so I really, really, really appreciate you sharing this and being honest. And, you know, a lot of people are very reluctant, you know, until they get, you know, as, obviously, you and I have both been to this rock bottom of certain things, you know, where it's like, shit needs to change, like, right now, or I'm gonna be dead, or I'm gonna hurt somebody, or, you know, all the things that could happen. And, unfortunately, human nature is that way.
Right? We're not like, a lot of time you know, I look at the bell curve from kinda like when we're kinda going up. I'm like, yeah. Something doesn't look right, but I got this. I'm cool. I'm strong. I'm, you know, I can handle it. You know, whatever it might be until we get over that that, like, like, uh-oh. I just crashed, and I can't handle it. And I'm a vulnerable human. And so and, unfortunately, until sometimes that happens, people are not willing to admit to themselves, like, I must change now. You know? And and I think that's a a thing that we all share in common that we've been in the rooms together, you know, that it's like we've been over that hump where we thought we got it, and then it's like, now you don't. It's it's a it's a fascinating
[01:57:22] Unknown:
I I find it I I don't I don't actually I don't I don't actually spend enough time talking about this because it's always just Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin. But, Yeah. I I only I only know two things. Well, let's put it another way. I I only know one other thing that is similar to Bitcoin. Mhmm. I think I think most people don't know anything else that is similar similar to Bitcoin because Bitcoin is unlike anything else that's ever existed before. Mhmm. But I I only know one other thing that's similar to Bitcoin, and that is the the network of of recovery programs as I have experienced it.
It's it's a it's it's a it's a fascinating it's a fascinating comparison. I mean, one one one of the most one of the most interesting parallels between the two is that how how misunderstood they are. I mean, Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin is is is so badly misunderstood even even today, especially and and and, you know, five years ago, even even more so. It's it's so misunderstood. Yeah. Halsted recovery programs is is completely misunderstood. There's this there's this almost comic comic, view that people have on it, which is it's like, you sit down in a circle and you say, hi. My name is and then you tell a sad story and that's it. It's like, no, man. It is so much more than that. It is a it is a it is a program for living that that brings you back to a spiritual reality, which is the only reality, where there's, you know, a higher power that is ultimately, you know, ultimately in control of everything.
And to me, it's like to me, it's like the ultimate ultimate form of religion because it allows you to truly discover that reality for yourself. It doesn't push you in one direction or the other. And and it's it's just it it's this process of of learning and learning and discovery. And it's it's so it's it's so similar to Bitcoin in so many ways. It's also a decentralized network where you have these groups who all follow more or less the same guidelines, but there's no one group that tells another one what to do. Right. Kind of like kind of like nodes on the network. You know? You you can run your own node, and as long as you follow the same rules or does the rest of the nodes on the network, you're part of the same network. If you don't, you're kind of forking off onto your own. It's it's very similar it's very similar in that regard. It's also very similar in the in the regard that, you know, Bitcoin is this system of of of of of of math, ultimately. That's what it comes down to. It's mathematics, and it's this it's this tether between between mathematics and real world energy that that makes Bitcoin work. It's because Bitcoin is connected to real world energy that it works as a form of money. You can't fake You can't fake energy. Yeah. You can't for you
[02:00:18] Unknown:
can't, for you know, forge or, you know, make it what is it? Forfit. Not forfeit. You can't you can't forge it. You can't Forged it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't just all of a sudden go, cool. I'm making another million dollars of Bitcoin. It's like Yeah. That that's what people don't get. And I think that's what such an I mean, that's a whole obviously, a huge other conversation for folks listening, but it's like, you can't just spin up out of thin air a decimal point that you move from the left to the right or whatever and add some more, you know, quote, unquote, value on someone's balance sheet or their account. Like Yeah.
It is proof of work. There is energy. It costs money to create that energy to Yeah. Create those those, you know, those sats and Exactly. Not even even, like, mining for gold. You know? Yeah. You have to go, like, get a shovel or whatever you're gonna go get or a little pan, or giant, you know, bulldozer. There's energy that has to go into mining that gold. However, we don't know if there's, okay, just a tiny bit left or if there's like, oh, wow. There's a whole another gold mine over here that's gonna completely flood the market. And, you know, so with the scarcity component of Bitcoin for people listening, it's like there's been nothing ever revealed, created, invented, whatever the words are that folks like to use for Bitcoin, like this on planet Earth. You know? Fiat, you can you can print money out of thin air.
Gold, yes, you've got proof of work, but you've also got the ambiguity of is there a scarce number, you know, of units of gold out there. Yeah. And so these are all, inefficiencies in those types of, money, currencies, and stuff. And so Bitcoin, it's just it's a revolutionary, revelation.
[02:02:14] Unknown:
Yeah. But it's in in a very in a very similar way where you cannot fake you cannot fake the proof of work that goes into creating a valid hash Yeah. Which then creates the next block, which then creates the next, block reward, which is the the creation of Bitcoin. You you there's no way to fake that. It is it is in in recovery from addiction, it's one of the very, very few places where proof of work becomes so obvious. Yeah. Because an addict an addict is going to use and get high every day. Guarantee. That's the one thing you can trust them to do. They will do whatever it takes to get that next fix. And a recovered a recovering or a recovered addict is someone who used to do that, and everybody knows them as that, but they no longer do that. And there's no way to fake that. It is it is it is the difference is like night and day, and and and it's it's impossible to fake. You know, I can I I can I can form part of another group, and I can pretend to be part of this group, and perhaps I can keep up that pretense? But when it comes to recovery from addiction, it is impossible to pretend that I am clean if I'm not actually clean and recovering. Yeah. The proof of work is is is as as close to unfakable as as anything as anything that I've ever seen. And that's another one of the very very interesting parallels. There's there's lots of interesting parallels between the two, which it's it's not you know, it's it's it's a topic that I haven't actually seen seen discussed enough. I mean, the other very interesting parallel is the fact that fiat is is addiction. I mean, money printing. It's Totally. If you look if you look at central banks and how they behave and how politicians just wanna fix everything by printing money, it is literally it is the behavior of an addict.
There's there's nothing else that describes it,
[02:04:12] Unknown:
better than that. And so, anyway, it's it's a fascinating conversation too. It is. And I think, you know, what's so cool is, you know, there's a lot of folks like you and I out here in the community who have had issues with, you know, whatever our substance of choice was And, you know, whether, you know, Bitcoin came first or recovery came first or whatever it was, I think there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of interesting overlaps and conversations to be had, which maybe we can do in spaces with some folks in the future, you know, and talk about this. Because, I mean, I have, like, tons of people who reach out to me when I talk about this. They're like, oh, I had this. You know? So I think it could be a it could be a cool spaces that we do. But, but I I wanna wrap it up right now, and I wanna just like, wow. This has been an incredible I know you and I could probably talk for another two hours.
I'm supposed to be on a call with somebody who you might know, man like Quex. You know him? Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna be talking about some some cool stuff just on a not a a video. You know? Not another podcast, but eventually a podcast. But let's let that how can everybody find you? Like, what's the best way for people to kinda get a hold of you and make sure that we can support Bitcoin e Qazi and the Surfer Kids?
[02:05:34] Unknown:
I mean, I I suppose x is the best place to do that. Okay. But there are x. But I I I do try and check DMs, as much as possible, but they say, oh, there's so much crap. It's always sometimes difficult to Yeah. Filter through all of it. Otherwise, we do have a contact form on the website. Okay. The website is bitcoin ekasi dot com. And then for people who wish to donate, they can go to support.bitcoinekasi.com? Yeah. Awesome. We we also we also do have fundraisers on on Geyser. We've got two fun fun fundraiser projects running there, so you can search for, you can search for bitkorekase on Geyser. But, otherwise, support.bitkorekase.com.
That's that's our main our main, platform for for, for donations. And, yeah, I mean, we're we're in the process of fundraising to build a new center. All the details are on the fundraising page. Cool. It's by far the biggest project that we've undertaken so far, and, it's gonna be epic.
[02:06:35] Unknown:
I can't wait. Well and and then I saw you just posted something today about you're looking for a social media person for adopting Bitcoin in, South Africa in January. And so is that something are you guys, like, cosponsoring or co hosting, or how does that work with adopting?
[02:06:53] Unknown:
So the first edition of Adopting Bitcoin was in 2024, and we were I suppose you could say the the the cohosts. It was Bitcoin Iqasi and Machampura Cool. That basically put on that that conference. I I almost I almost pushed my wife to the point of walking out because of that first conference. Oh, no. We don't want that. We don't want that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To confirm that. But it's it's fine. We we made it through that. And Good. With with the second one this year in 2025, we got more help on board. Good. So that one was just in January now, and then with the next one. So, yeah, I suppose I mean, the conference the the adopting Midway conference started because of myself and Keiji from Macho Kura. We kind of Cool. Were the two people that came together and said, look. We have to make this happen. Keiji's the best man. I love him. Yeah. He's awesome. But, yeah, we are looking for someone to do social media for the for the conference for next year. It'll be the third time we're doing it, and the dates are confirmed for January.
[02:07:57] Unknown:
You should get a hold of Lorraine, like, for like, Queen Marcel. Like, she's got a hold like, she's starting to put together, like, a Bitcoin talent pool from all the BTC datas. And so because I reached out to her and I was like, I need somebody to do my video and do some stuff. So perhaps, you know, some of the ladies over there could be a good fit. And she just was like and literally, this was just yesterday. She was like, well, send me a list of, like, your requirements or who you're looking for and what their skills are. So perhaps that might be a nice, you know, a nice fit for you guys.
[02:08:30] Unknown:
So Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll see what what applications we get. We've also reached out to a few people privately. We'll see what we get. Cool.
[02:08:37] Unknown:
But yeah. That'll be great, man. Yeah. It's gonna be great. Well, hopefully, I'll get to come there. I wanna come to ABC in December. I've gotta look for some sponsors to get myself over there. It's definitely, it's on my bucket list of of trying to help and support. So that'll be cool. Well, so thank you so much for taking time to, you know, do this and talk with us. And I can't I'm I'm you're on my bucket list to come visit you and the kids and, like, the programs and what you're doing. And, I I just feel like it's not just a bunch of philosophy, which is nice out there to have Bitcoin philosophy. Like, you're actually doing Bitcoin in action. And that's what I think makes what you do so powerful. And the fact that you do it with young people, you know, and you're helping them change their perspectives and their lives and look to the future with hope that they're not just like, oh, I'm in this yucky system wherever I am.
Like, you're you're definitely one of my Bitcoin heroes. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Alright. I mean, you're welcome to visit anytime. We we welcome you. I will. I it's it's not it's happening. It's definitely happening. Hopefully, this December slash January. I don't know. We'll see what what goes on with my schedule, but I definitely wanna be down there. But I appreciate your time. And, everybody who's listening, I'll put all the the links in the show notes. And thanks again, Herman, for for taking time to be with us. Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate it. Alright, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Peace, love, and aloha.
[02:10:09] Unknown:
Thank you. Bye bye. Totally.
We're both getting our our our little drinks. Hey. Aloha, love tribe. Welcome to the show. I have somebody here with me who has been supporting young people with their dreams, with empowerment, with personal development, using nature, which is surfing, and combining that with the power of Bitcoin and financial empowerment. This is Hermann Vivier of Bitcoin and Kazi and the Surfer Kids. Welcome. Thank you so much for being with me here tonight. Or it's tonight for you, and it's today for me.
[00:01:06] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's tonight. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Totally. Well,
[00:01:11] Unknown:
let's let the audience know, like, who you are, how you got here. You know, you and I got to meet a couple years ago when I had the privilege of introducing you at the Adopting Bitcoin conference in El Salvador. And I've been, you know, a a long time follower of what you've been doing with the children in, you know, the surfer kids and with Bitcoin eKazi. But I would love for you to just be able to help everybody understand, like, who you are, what is Bitcoin eKazi, what is what are the surfer kids, and, you know, let everybody kinda get that that jam.
[00:01:45] Unknown:
Yeah. Sure. I mean, we're basically it's it's it's basically a community based, nonprofit charity organization. It's pretty pretty small charity. It's nothing nothing major, in terms of numbers. So we we we work with about, let's say, 60 to 70 kids, per day, five five days a week. But those are the same kids returning every day. So it's not it's not it's not it's not 60 new kids every day. It's, it's it's the kids, you know, it's the same kids returning. So let's say we our our total our total recruits are about 70 between sixty and seventy. And then on average, they will have an attendance of about 40. So, we and and we teach the kids surfing, and that's been that's been happening since 02/2010, when we started the organization.
Wow. And since 2021, so in, you know, sort of just over ten years after after starting the the the nonprofit, we we kind of we kind of flipped the whole thing onto a Bitcoin standard. And so we kept doing exactly the same thing we were doing before, except we started fundraising in Bitcoin as opposed to fiat, and we started, more importantly, started paying the salaries of all the staff who run the organization in Bitcoin. And that that was a transition that happened gradually, but today, we we pay a % of all salaries, in Bitcoin.
We have about ten ten people who work full time, for the organization and then another another 10 people, most most of them are youngsters who themselves came up through the program who work part time, to help us, run run the organization.
[00:03:42] Unknown:
How how did that transition happen in 2021? Like, how did you guys get from I mean, because it sounds like, you know, from 2010, you've been doing this program with the kids, and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, let's integrate Bitcoin here. How did that work for y'all? And during the lockdowns and I don't know what the lockdowns were like where you are. You know? Like, how how did that that shift happen?
[00:04:04] Unknown:
I mean, yeah, the lockdowns were pretty rough in South Africa. It was it was quite harsh. Not not the harshest that they were, but, I mean, I think I think that that happened because of a couple of there there was a few contributing factors. I think one of the one of the contributing factors, probably the most important one was the fact that, you know, after ten years of running this charity, I was getting to a point where I was asking myself, like, what am I doing? Mhmm. What what is the, you know, what is what is the bigger what's what's the bigger picture here?
Ten years of teaching kids surfing. Am I really changing anything? I'm sure there's you know, I I knew some some personal success stories of the kids themselves, but but I'm very much, like, interested in in societal change. Mhmm. I can I I can see that that things have to change on a on a fundamental level for there to be real real change? Otherwise, you're just putting Band Aids on on serious wounds. Yeah. And so I I I reached the point where and I I was just in in that headspace, you know, asking myself, what am I doing here? And then combined with that was the fact that up until that point, the charity was reliant on funding that came mostly through the tourism industry.
Seeing as my wife and I, we we we we have a tour operator. We run a tour operating business, and she still operates that today. But, obviously, during lockdowns, we, you know, we shut the business down, and we we didn't operate for two years. So and and as a result, funding for the charity dried up as well. So we we had to let staff go. We had to cut down, scale down operations. The lockdowns even meant at some point that the kids couldn't surf, so we couldn't bring the kids to the beach and and surf with them because the beaches were closed. So, yeah, we we ran out of funding. We I was at a I was at a point where I was asking myself, you know, what am I doing here?
And, you know, and then combined with that, I would say the third factor is that I I I wanted to contribute to global Bitcoin adoption. I
[00:06:34] Unknown:
I had How did you get into Bitcoin? Like, how was Bitcoin into your life at that point? Like, were you hardcore into Bitcoin 20 1 2021, or had you been into it earlier? Like, how did you all of a sudden go, wow. I wanna put chocolate and peanut butter together with the nonprofit in Bitcoin and make something happen. How did that, what was
[00:06:54] Unknown:
that decision? I was I was obsessed with Bitcoin by that point. Cool. I was I was living and and and breathing, it for for the most part of my day, but I was doing it sort of isolated on my own Yeah. Reading a lot, watching a lot of stuff. I I was introduced to Bitcoin in 2013 by a friend of mine, who gave me a copy of Bitcoin magazine, that was halfway through the year. And through, again, through our tourism business, we had some contact with people in in in Cyprus who had, you know, had had bank deposits, confiscated, this the the Cyprus banking system. Yeah. Yeah. That whole shit show.
Yeah. That was an absolute shit show. And I I just realized that that was really unfair to have, like, your hard earned money simply confiscated because the bank the bank went went went, bought, you know, just did bad business.
[00:08:01] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:08:03] Unknown:
And, you know, I I we were I I was not I was not very wealthy at at that point, not at all. We were basically living living, like, on a month to month basis. But I did buy some Bitcoin near the near the top in 2013 and then and then watch the price go down by, you know, 70 or 80%, whatever the case was. And I I started learning about it as a result of that. I I knew I had to understand what this thing was, or I had to sell what it whatever it was and just take the loss. And so instead of selling and taking the loss, I decided to to to learn what it was. And and two years later, we we started using it as a form of payment, because a lot of our clients were from Eastern Europe and Russia.
And with the first Ukrainian war, we we had clients who couldn't pay. And we we received our first Bitcoin payment in March 2015. And and that was the first time I I experienced receiving a payment from a client. And I remember sitting there, looking at the wallet, seeing seeing the transaction in the mempool, you know, waiting for the first confirmation, seeing it confirmed. And I just remember thinking to myself, there's no fucking way the banks are gonna win this battle. It's just it's there there's no competition here. Like, because we I I I I'd obviously had quite a bit of experience with international banking payments by that point, receiving payments from clients Right. For the tourism business. And yeah. So by by by 2020, '20 '20 '1, especially with the insanity of COVID, I I knew what the potential of of this thing was. Like, I knew what the potential of Bitcoin was if we saw mass adoption, but I didn't really know what I could do to help drive that adoption, further.
And I'm not a developer, you know. I'm not a I'm not a, I I I don't, you know our business used Bitcoin, but it wasn't a Bitcoin company, the tourism business. So I then and and then then the thought came to me that why don't I just copy what Bitcoin Beach did? Like, we have the charity. We have the NPO. I I had been following the Bitcoin Beach story, since the very beginning. I I heard one of the first interviews with Mike Peterson in 2019, on the on the What Bitcoin Did podcast. And even Yeah. Even Peter McCormack when when he was doing that interview with Mike, even Peter seemed a bit skeptical. Like, you know, this is okay. This is nice, but, you know, is this really gonna work?
But it it it kind of immediately made sense to me because I I I was in a very similar position with, with the charity that we had. We had a very strong foothold in the community. They they trusted our coaches and, you know, I could see I could see how we could, you know, move some of the salaries over to Bitcoin. And I knew that that would cause quite a bit of attention to to come on to the organization, but more importantly, it would bring attention onto the adoption of Bitcoin. And it would cause many more people to to consider and become exposed to to this, which is what we've seen.
[00:11:35] Unknown:
Well and I think too, you know, we're looking at, like, the way that you've approached this. And, here, I'm gonna switch it so you're not your face is not covered up with the text there. There's so many sly and roundabout ways to learn about Bitcoin and to learn about sound money. Right? And and I think, you know, what you're doing, you know, is sort of similar to, you know, some approaches that I have, you know, with personal growth or with music or with podcasting, and you do value for value. And it's not just here's you know, I'm a developer and a cryptographer and a hedge fund manager, and its number go up, and let's just go rock some investments. But it's like, how are you supporting the people who are using Bitcoin as not just store of value, which, of course, is wonderful for that, but as a medium of exchange? And for you, when you just said you got your your first Bitcoin transaction and you're waiting for that first confirmation, and you weren't calling the dude on the bank and going, hey. Is my wire transfer going through?
You know? You're you're using this peer to peer network that you can transact with anybody all over the world. And I think a lot of folks who don't understand why Bitcoin is essentially a medium of exchange, and, yes, it's a store of value. But if you don't understand that that's what it's designed for, is a peer to peer transaction system, you're missing the whole point. You know? And and it's just I I think it's a very understated thing right now because you're seeing all of these, you know, whatever, sailor and all the companies and the all these people are just like, cool, cool, cool. We're just gonna, you know, buy Bitcoin and HODL it. And I'm like, well, there's people who actually use Bitcoin as a life saving device to get out of authoritarian regimes, to get out of domestic violence, to get out of a place where they can't actually do their business because they've got all these middlemen and these, you know, gated people who are gonna say, nope. You can't transfer money over to Herman for his, you know, surfing camp with the kids. And it needs to take, you know, fourteen days, and the dude over here needs to put a stamp on the piece of paper. Fuck that. You know? And so it's just like Bitcoin creates this opportunity for people to have the freedom to transact with who they wish, where they wish. And and I I just love, like so so it's just it's so cool, like, what you've done. And so what I would love to hear, if you can, like, how has you know, because we've got obviously two kinda vectors to talk about, you know, how Bitcoin has changed your life as an entrepreneur, as a nonprofit operator, as somebody who's, you know, you know, just trying to bring people into your local area. But then you've also got the kids who you're working with. And, you know, I'd I'd seen recently, you know, and this is where I was just like, oh my gosh. We gotta get on the podcast now. You know, where the kids are earning Bitcoin to do certain things. And so how does you know, those are two kind of areas that we can discuss, you know, the the transformation.
And so I'd love to hear, like, how the kids' how are the kids' lives being transformed because of Bitcoin?
[00:15:08] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, the the whole medium of exchange versus store of value debate is probably never gonna
[00:15:15] Unknown:
never gonna be settled in that way. So it's one of those things that it's just, like, we need both. Like, we there's no, like, exclusion of the other. We want them both to be thriving. Right?
[00:15:26] Unknown:
Yeah. I don't I don't, I don't I mean, the one interesting thing about that debate I mean, I'll get to the question on the kids. But, the one interesting thing about that debate is that it seems to be that the people who are on the store of value side of the debate want to prioritize, the store of value aspect, whereas people who are on the medium of exchange side of the debate recognize that both of them are equally important. And that's why that that's why I tend to find more validity in the the medium of exchange side of the debate, simply because people who are on that side of the debate recognize that it's both at the same time, and it's not one or the other. And to me, like, I understand that there are economic arguments, for it to first before the medium. I've read those arguments and I don't see any fault with them. But I just didn't experience it that way. For me, it was both the medium exchange and the store of value all at the same time.
When I received that first transaction I mean, look, the first time I bought it in 2013, it was neither. I was, I was giving surf lessons at the time and I took some of the cash I'd earned and and bought bought a few sets with, with cash. And it was just a painful experience. Nothing else. There was no there was there was no medium of exchange, no store of value, nothing. I I took some I took some money and it it it we didn't have a lot of money at that point, but but it was a considerable amount for our circumstance then. And Sure. It was just, it was just painful. But then, you know, then in 2015, I when I saw that first transaction from clients coming in, and I was like, it was a medium of exchange in that moment, but at the very same time, I realized that because it's got a limited supply and because it's so useful as a medium of exchange to just do transactions regardless, like, no one can stop you, more people are gonna more people are gonna want this. And because more people are gonna want it, because it's so useful, it's gonna become a very, very good store of value because it's gonna go up in price because it's a limited supply and and and so it just to me, it was just obviously both of those things at the same time.
So, yeah, I don't I don't pay too much attention to the people who to say that it's it it cannot be a minimum exchange yet Yeah. Because it it it it is for me. Like, I'm I've been using it as a minimum exchange since 2015. And, yes, I know there's opportunity cost, but if you earn everything in Bitcoin, then it's almost as if that opportunity cost is not as relevant anymore because, you know, I there's opportunity cost in spending fiat money as well because I could have bought Bitcoin with that fiat money. Like, you know, if if I if if I buy this cup of coffee, it's to use the typical example that's been used too many times, but if I buy this cup cup of coffee with fiat money, I could have bought Bitcoin with that money.
So if everything I own is in Bitcoin and I'm buying a cup of coffee, there's no opportunity cost there, regardless of which currency I choose to spend on it. But anyway, yeah. Look. I mean, we we we introduced it as a minimum exchange to the children and to the coaches who work for us because it makes more sense in their frame of reference. Like, I I would have had very little success introducing Bitcoin as a store of value and as a savings mechanism, first. You know, if if if if you're earning if you're earning minimum wage and, you know, you you don't you you spend most of what you earn, Then introducing Bitcoin as a medium exchange just makes more sense. You can it's useful. You can buy stuff with it, and you can buy things in a way that you weren't able to buy things before. Like, if you've never had a bank account, you've never had a credit card, you've never been able to make online purchases, now all of a sudden, Bitcoin gives you a way to make online purchases. It's it's it's mind blowing if that's if that's the first time you'd ever done that.
So it it makes sense to introduce it as a as a medium exchange, and then to to to bring in the store of value aspect, with time. Because, ultimately, the aim is still to introduce it to the staff and to the kids as a store of value because that's how that's how you change your life. I think, you know, there's there's only one way to improve your own circumstances, and that is to to build capital and save for the future. And and that means, you know, investing and and not saving cash in the bank, but saving saving your money in something that that appreciates in value over time. And that will always be the ultimate goal. It's just a question of how do you introduce it. And if you're a highly educated person, perhaps I can introduce that concept to you by giving you the Bitcoin standard. And you'll read the book and you'll get it, and you'll go out and you'll buy, you know, a bunch of Bitcoin. But if you're not highly educated, you can't read, big numbers don't make sense to you, you know, you struggle to understand difficult concepts, complicated concepts, It's I'm not gonna be able to introduce this idea to you by giving you the Bitcoin standard.
So a much more effective way to introduce it to people in those circumstances is to say, look. You can use this thing. It's good for money.
[00:21:16] Unknown:
And with time, you'll understand that it's good for saving too. Well and and I think, you know, for you, obviously, and for for many people. Right? There's obviously several billion people around the world who are unbanked and unbankable because of where they live. Right? Whether you're a woman, whether you're a kid, whether you just happen to live in a certain jurisdiction. And so the idea of, the opportunity to have something that can appreciate over time other than, like, oh, look. I bought some I have some paper fiat of whatever my local currency is, and I stick it under the mattress that gets, you know, its purchasing power debased because they're inflating it is is revolutionary.
And and you can do it if you have an Internet connection and a phone, you know. And even with, like, Monch Incuda and, you know, other organizations that are out there trying to help people figure out, like, how are we using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange? It's you know, and, obviously, you know, we've got Lorraine Marcel with BTC Data. It's like and I didn't know this until I interviewed her, and I'm still learning. I'm like, I'm you know, the reason I do this podcast is cause it's like an educational opportunity for hopefully my audience to get stuff, but also, of course, for me because I'm I'm I'm no expert, you know. But I remember interviewing her and she was just like, Val, do you even understand that, like, women don't have property rights in certain parts of our continent?
You know? And if the husband dies, then anything you had goes to the family of the husband and not you. And I was like, I didn't know that. You know? I just my mind is just sort of, you know, in this privileged first world, like, well, of course, it can be my property. And she's like, uh-uh. And so Bitcoin to me is like this life raft savings tool for different people to have property rights. You know? And regardless of where you live in your jurisdiction, if you can memorize 12 to 24 words, you can have an opportunity to own your future, you know, and not just from a a a store of value, but, okay, if I have to leave and I'm gonna be a refugee and I'm in another country or whatever it might be, you know, because if you've got a a bank account with whatever your your denominated, you know, currency is, if you need to get out of Dodge quick, that's not gonna be very valuable. Nobody wants it. You can't transfer it. Forget about it. Right? But if you've got those 12 seed words, you know, the the seed phrase in your mind or in your pocket or wherever it is, you have an exponential chance to, like, create a new life for yourself.
And when I learned about that with Alex Gladstein and Roya Mahboob, I was just like, holy guacamole. Like, this is actually, like, a life saving tool to have have something like this. Because if if you're a refugee in any world, any part of the world, if you don't have access to resources, you're gonna be subject to whatever the the area is that you're in, and you're gonna hope that you can get a handout, or you're gonna hope you're in a camp, or whatever it might be. Right? But but the fact that these folks can take their their wealth and their worth with them anywhere, that's unprecedented.
It's unprecedented. You know? Because you can get robbed. You've got your silver coins or your gold coins. You You got your diamond or whatever you think is. You're like, you're, This is my life savings. And it's like someone's just like, I'm gonna clobber you over the head. But if they don't know that you're carrying those 12 words in your head, they can't steal that from you. And then you have an opportunity for freedom. And that's, for me, personally, what changed my life about Bitcoin versus crypto versus fiat versus all the other nonsense. And so, do the kids get it? Like, do they understand that this is something that is, a tool for their own freedom and sovereignty for their future?
[00:25:30] Unknown:
I I mean, it depends what age kids you're talking about. The the older the older kids so we we we recruit kids from the age of, of about six, six years on. So there's some really young kids in the in the surfing program.
[00:25:49] Unknown:
Did are they are they just let me ask you this. Are they are they, like, from typical families with mom and dad? Did are they orphans? Are they like, what's their what's their kind of socioeconomic familial status?
[00:26:06] Unknown:
I mean, the socioeconomic status is is probably, as as probably as low as you can imagine on the on the poverty ladder, if you wanna call it that. So it's well, it's I mean, there there there are worst there's always worst situations, but it's pretty bad. You know, most most of the families are are broken. Many many of the families are broken. The father is absent, the mother is a drug addict, whatever the case may be. Kids live with their grandparents very often. There's oftentimes, you know, one grandparent looking after more than one one family's children or, you know, stuff like that. It's it's it's it's pretty hectic.
And I mean, that's that's one of the reasons why we started, the the the the charity in that specific area is, you know, you wanna you wanna go to where you feel you can make the biggest difference. So it's a it's it's a pretty desperate situation for most of these kids. Then, you know, they they end up as I said, it's it's the same kids who return on a daily basis. So it's kinda like school, in a way, because we don't we don't we don't we don't have a a a turnover where every month we'll, you know, get a whole bunch of new recruits. We we do recruit on an ongoing basis, but the idea is that if the coaches recruit a child, that child stays in the program for many, many years.
Some of the older kids that have started working for us, you know, when they turn 14, 15, 16 years old, they start working for the organization. By that time, they've been surfing with us for five, six, seven, eight. Now if we recruit them if if we recruit them when they're eight, by the time they're 16, they've been with us for for eight years. And so those those kids understand, what the potential of of Bitcoin is because they've been they've been, you know, earning a earning a salary, for some time, the ones that are older and that are working working for the NPO. The younger ones, which is the video I think you replied to, that's that's a little different because there we there we target the very, very young kids. And what we do is those aren't those aren't salaries. Those are basically so we we have, obviously, an attendance system where we we check which kids show up and which don't so that we can track track the attendance to see which ones are are absent, you know. Is there a problem? Why are they absent? Why are they not coming? And and and, and so if we see really good attendance, we'll take, like, you know, we'll take all the kids that that have an attendance that's above, like, 80% or above 70%. So that means they attend, you know, three or four out of the five serve sessions every week.
And and we'll reward them in sets, for that, you know, primarily because we wanna teach this idea that if you if you really put the effort in, you will get rewarded. But then but then second is this idea that, okay, and you're also being rewarded in Bitcoin, and that's different. That's different from being rewarded in fiat. I mean, first of all, it's different because you never we we we never would have been able to do this with fiat to begin with. So if if you think about it, you know, we we sometimes, we reward 30 kids out of the 60 recruits that we have. Right?
Many of those kids don't have birth certificates. Many of them, you know, don't have, proof of address or papers. So how how would you do this with the fiat system? You you wouldn't be able to do it with digital banking because opening bank accounts for these kids would be completely impossible. And you wouldn't wanna do it with cash because that would be a security security nightmare. You know? So doing it with Bitcoin is actually the fact that it is Bitcoin is kind of, like, of secondary importance. The most important thing to understand is that we're rewarding them for hard work. That's that's the core concept. And then we're just we're we're kind of doing it with Bitcoin because, well, we're a Bitcoin adoption project, but also because that's the only thing you can do it with. We we we we wouldn't even have considered doing it with fiat, just because it'll be impossible.
So what what we've done with the Bitcoin rewards is we actually run the we run the the infrastructure ourselves. We have a a self hosted BTC based server, and then we have NFC cards, that are linked to that. And the kids all have their own individual card. And we are basically we when I say we, I mean the organization. It's basically the bank. And we are, if you wanna call it that, banking banking these kids by giving them an account. And, yes, I suppose, even there, the long term aim is to teach this idea of savings. Because if you earn these rewards this month, you are rewarded for hard work. That's great. And, also, on top of that, if you don't spend these rewards this month, they still they'll still be there next month.
You know? And if you don't spend them the month after that, it'll it'll build up over time. And and and the next month, it'll still be there. And you can check the balance on your account. You know, the kids know how to do that. The coaches can help them with it. And over time, learn to save in in a similar way that the coaches and the staff are all are all encouraged,
[00:32:03] Unknown:
to to save. Well, and I think too, you know, just like, obviously, you've adopted this from the inspiration of Bitcoin Beach and Mike Peterson and, you know, what his wonderful accomplishments have been. And I think, you know, I remember, you know, a few years ago, obviously, when when I was learning about Bitcoin Beach and, what he was doing, but just when he was saying he was paying the kids to, you know, sweep the porch or whatever the chores were, and they got to get paid in Bitcoin. And the next day, the the the fiat value of the Bitcoin could go up. Obviously, it fluctuates, so we know it's not always gonna go up. But these kids were just like, you mean I could I don't have to just spend it today on Doritos and Coca Cola? Like, I can what happens if tomorrow, it goes up another, you know, whatever, x percent? And so just that visual mindset and of looking at the numbers kind of going up for these children who don't have the capacity to get a bank account, save if you're gonna go get paper whatever currency and stick it in your mattress, you know, that could get deflated in two seconds with, you know, the stroke of a digital pen.
That to me was such an interesting game changer for these children to think about, you know, financial literacy, savings, you know, and not just having that, like, well, I got something. I need to get rid of it out of my pocket before I'm not able to use it sort of thing. And so is that kind of the same experience that you had with the kids, you know, when they started understanding? Like, holy cow. I can I don't have to go every just just because I got paid today doesn't mean I need to go blow it all and spend it all today? Like, for them to understand that this is something that can be you know, they can spend some of it if they wish to, but they have an opportunity to have a segment of it, whatever that, you know, percentages that they choose.
And perhaps over time, if they wait long enough, it it it will it does and it will grow.
[00:34:06] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's definitely the older kids definitely, understand this. The younger ones, I mean, probably not. Just because they, you know, they're too young. The concept the concept probably won't make sense to any to any eight year old. Yeah. Well,
[00:34:28] Unknown:
to some eight year old. Some, they'll get it. But, yeah, for most of them, they're just like, cool. I got some ice cream money. Let's go spend it.
[00:34:36] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, especially for an eight year old that comes from a circumstance where they they hardly ever have money to spend. Right. So, you know, it's but but it's not we're not giving these kids large amounts. So it's it's a it's a worthwhile price to pay for their long term education. And so the older kids definitely get it. The ones that have been a part of this for several years. I mean, we have there's there's there's a good example of one of the older kids who who, who saved up, enough money to to build a little extension to his dad's house so that he had his own room rather than because the, you know, the the houses are really small, so you would have you would have a family of four people staying in in what is effectively, a shack that that that's kind of like a bachelor flat setup where everybody everybody shares one room.
And and the kitchen and everything, everything is in that one room. And so, you know, one of these one of these older kids I mean, he's he's quite a bit older by now. I think he's turning 18 this year. But he'd been he'd been earning a small salary in SATS for the last three years. Started earning about three years ago. And, and he saved up enough money to to build, his own his own room so that he didn't have to share his, his living space with with the rest of the family. So they they they definitely are examples of the older kids to who, this makes sense and they and they do get it.
And he understands that part of the reason he's able to do that is because he saved this money in an asset that went up in value over time. That's just obvious. You know? It's if he had been saving it in in fiat, it would have taken him three, four, five times longer
[00:36:37] Unknown:
to save that same amount. So, yeah, definitely, there are some some of the older kids that do understand. How does it work for so so just as you know, and, obviously, you don't have to dox this child. How does it work for the interaction with his family? You know, that do they are they on board? And they're like, yeah. Cool. Great. You know, Johnny for wanting to save and do this thing. Or they're just like, oh, you're kinda crazy. Like, what's the obviously, you know, we have a bell curve of most things in the world. But, like, what's the typical interaction with the children and their families?
Because a lot of families, even my family, still doesn't understand Bitcoin, and they think I'm insane. You know? So it's just like, how do these young kids who aren't, you know, forceful adults, how do they, how do they communicate Bitcoin to their families in a way that keeps harmony within the unit, if that makes sense?
[00:37:40] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, that's that's it's, it's not a question I get asked very often. It's a good question. There's there's examples on both ends of the spectrum. There's there's examples of families that are really supportive. In this case, that I just mentioned, he's he he lives with his dad. It's him and his two younger brothers, and and his dad. And his dad is very supportive, and so that was a very positive, situation. But there are there are examples of kids who earn SATs. And and and when when I say kids who earn SATs, we're not talking about full time employment. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, kind of Like, you showed up. You did the program. You did the stuff. Right? Yeah. You're getting some tasks. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. When when when they're really young, it's literally just just a little pocket money reward for for for showing up. And and as they become older, they they actually do start working where they start coaching and and guiding the younger kids.
But, yeah, there there there is an example of of of kids who do become older and then, you know, do start earning a better salary and do actually start working for the for the project, who where the family is not not very supportive at all. And they, you know, they they try and and take the money from them. And, you know and and, again, here, it's it's kind of, you know, it's kind of a good thing that we that we're using Bitcoin because in many of these cases, we can't pay the kids to to bank accounts because they don't have bank accounts, obviously. And we cannot prevent the family from taking their Bitcoin.
You know, obviously obviously, at the very beginning, the family don't know what it is. They don't know how to use it. But with time, they'll figure it out. And then it becomes a situation where they could actually, you know, take take the child's wallet, force him to pay the SATs into into a wallet that they control, and and they could take his SATs that way. But because it's in Bitcoin, there are ways that we can mitigate this. So, you know, we can still we could, for example, set up a wallet where the child, you know, or or the youngster, you know, we sometimes we're talking about we call them kids, but they're already 18 or whatever.
You know, they're not really kids anymore. But we could we could we could set up a wallet where where the kid has, like, has access to check the balance, but they but they haven't got access to spend it unless they're with one of the coaches. Interesting. And so in those situations in in those situations, they they can see they're getting the paid their salary, or their stipend or whatever whatever the case may be, and they can see it accumulating. But there's no way for the family to force them to pay the SATS over to their wallet. And and it's it just because because Bitcoin is is open and permissionless, you know, I mean, I I I I was chatting to one of the developers from Blink not so long ago, three weeks ago, and they he just he just built this new tool where, you know, I could go into one of my Blink wallets, generate a read only API key. I can give that API key to anyone else.
They could log on to this website, put the read only API key into the website, and then and then read my entire wallet balance. And it's something that he just built just because. And they see he didn't have to ask anyone's permission. He he could just do it. And so so there are these tools that enable you to do things that would have been entirely impossible, with a traditional bank account. So we can't in the in those cases where the family is not supportive, we can't entirely avoid
[00:41:41] Unknown:
the kids sometimes losing the money that they're paying for. Having a what about having a a decoy wallet?
[00:41:48] Unknown:
Yeah. So that's that's what I'm trying to explain is you can you you you can set things up in a way so that it becomes way more difficult for them to use. Well, but with a decoy wallet, it just for example, and again, help me if I'm not saying it correctly.
[00:42:03] Unknown:
You know, my understanding that a lot of people do these, you know, OPSECs, and they're trying to make sure that, like, if somebody comes with my $5 wrench and wants to attack me at my house, you know, I've got whatever x amount of Bitcoin sats, you know, so that they're gonna be happy and leave my house and not kill me and my family. Right? The real stash is over here. You know? The real Bitcoin is in a different completely different wallet. And so you wanna have perhaps several decoy wallets. Who knows? You know? Obviously, if you have multisig and if you're doing that kind of different types of configurations, but still you're gonna have that transparency. And if your family is not on board with you and they know, like, woah. You got all this, you know, Bitcoin that keeps going up, they might, you know, harass you or, you know, do some type of manipulation to get you to turn over your Bitcoin to them versus Yeah. Okay. Here's my smokescreen for you, and this should be good enough.
And leave me alone, and I'm gonna go have my free life over here when I'm able to get away from you, who is trying to hurt me and manipulate me, whether it's a $5 wrench attack, whether it's, you know, parents for a 17 year old, you know, whatever it might be. But I feel like it it's a it's a it's an interesting, delicate conversation to have, you know, because it's not there's no one size fits all solution for how this works for people. Yeah.
[00:43:34] Unknown:
Yeah. I know exactly. There there are there are ways in which we can set set up the wallets where the kids save, where it becomes nearly impossible for the family to take it. It's a little bit more difficult to do that with a with a daily spending wallet where you have, like, a a blink or a wallet of stowage or something like that. But that that's that's a little bit but even even there, there's there's ways to there there's there's ways to make it so that, it's it's more difficult. I mean, it it's it's no matter how no matter how you look at it, it's way, way safer than paying those kids in cash. Yeah. Everything's way safer than cash for the kids.
[00:44:11] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:44:13] Unknown:
And and it's way it's way easier than than than than paying them into a a bank account. Right. Because you can very quickly move from one wallet to another. If if if, you know, if if you if one of the wallets have been compromised, you can just open up a new one, link it to a new email address, move all all the sites over to a new new email address. And if the family does have control of that wallet, then they'll find it's empty, before they can do anything with it. So it it just it just becomes it just it it's just so much easier to do it with to do it with Bitcoin because you're in control of of of the funds rather than rather than the bank being in control. You know? You can imagine a situation where we, as the organization, pay the salary for this kid into his bank account, but somehow the parents gain access to the account through the bank.
There's very little that we would be able to do as an organization by going to the bank and saying, look. This is not you know, the bank would it it would be a paperwork paperwork red tape, bureaucratic nightmare to to try and to try and do anything. So So because it's Bitcoin, because we control it, because we are basically the bank, the organization becomes like the like the bank. We can we can steward, the the kids' funds in a way that is in their best interest. Have you done anything
[00:45:37] Unknown:
with, like, Alan Bits and Splits? Like, I you know, a a a while ago, I was, you know, just trying to figure out from, you know, podcaster, musician, artist, creative, you know, any point of view, right, where you wanna, like, like whatever. If somebody donates whatever, a thousand sats, right, and then instantly, you know, 10% goes to, you know, Bitcoin and Qazi, 30 percent goes to the kids, 60% goes to operating expenses, whatever, you know, whatever your split is that you, you know, put on that particular, you know, address, QR code, whatever.
Because to me, that seems like an easy way also so that you're just you're not even being the middle. You know? It's just kind of like it sort of bounces off of your, you know, your your placeholder as it were. And so there's not, like, something that you have to worry about. And I think about kids, again, like, if there's parents or if there's people who are out there who are just like, where's the real money? Where's the this? And it's like, there isn't any. There's, like, literally, this is my decoy, which is what they think is real. And I I guess I'm just saying this from an adversarial point of view because there's there are people out there who wanna, you know, take advantage of people's stash, you know, whether it's a kid, whether it's an adult, whatever. You know? And so it's kinda like, okay. 10% is going into my decoy wallet and, you know, 80% is going into my real wallet kind of thing. And that could perhaps create a security diversion so that other people can't come and get your life savings and can't come take it. And they have no they have zero understanding that there's even another wallet or 10 that exist, you know, for these kids. And I don't know. I just kinda think about, like, for the long term for a lot of people who are holding Bitcoin, you know, who aren't just, you know, the the server kids. It's like, how can we create places where we're gonna be safe if somebody comes and tries to mess with us? You know? Whether it's our parents or the $5 wrench attack or the government or whatever. You know? But it's kinda like my my deep cold storage is over here, and everything got split automatically.
And then here's my little, you know, facade of what is gonna make you shut up and leave me alone and get out of my house. You know?
[00:48:16] Unknown:
Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, I think one of the one one of there's there's not a lot to to be super positive about in that I know. Community, but but but but one of the one one of the things that one can be quite positive about is that it's a very it's a very tight knit community. Yeah. And so everybody everybody knows everybody else. Most of the coaches that that work for us, you know, grew up in that community. Everybody knows them, which is one of the reasons I think we we were quite successful, with the surfing program and then with the with the program is because we had these coaches who were very well known and established and trusted in the community.
You know, they so that that sort of counts counts in in their favor. It'd be very hard for anyone to do anything and get away without everybody knowing that that that it was named who did it, if if you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:16] Unknown:
Are you If if something happens I I'm sure you are. But, like, have have you done any work with Fetti? Like, do you know about Fetti? Like, to me, it's like Fetti's just I and I haven't gotten to you know, I've played around with it with Renata and Obi, and it was just like, well, how can we actually implement this into certain communities where people aren't gonna, like, hold their own keys necessarily and everyone you know? And so to me, like, it seems like, the Surfer Kids and Bitcoin and Qazi would be an interesting, case study to see if Fetti would be a way to safely hold the Bitcoin for the the kids in the community and whatnot. Like, what are your thoughts on
[00:50:00] Unknown:
that? Yeah. I mean, we've we've we've used most we we try and use we try and use all the tools that that that that are released, and we try to we try to experiment experiment and play around with it. We, you know, we we have a we have a federation, a FedEx federation, but it's it's still very early stages. So that we we set that up, a year year and a half ago. It's it's cloud based. So there's there's a Bitcoin ERC Federation, which which you can join. You open a FEDI wallet, and you you you join the Bitcoin ERC Federation, and you, you know, you then have eCash.
Your your Sats if if you make a deposit into this wallet, your sets are are converted to eCash. And if you pay it out of the wallet to another lightning wallet, then it's, you know, converted back to sets. But but it looks like Bitcoin. It feels like Bitcoin. It works like Bitcoin. So we we've used Feddy. I think I think what becomes really interesting, you know, with Fedi, if you're thinking about the perspective you were thinking about just now from an adversarial start standpoint, what becomes interesting with Fedi is once you're able to actually run the federation yourself on hardware that you that you control, which which as which at the moment, as far as I know, is not possible.
But there have been there there have been, sort of updates in the last sort of month or two where where developers working on the Fedimint protocol have have communicated to me that they are working on an update where with the next I think I I don't know when Start nine is updating their their OS, but when they do, it'll have a Fedimint implementation on the Start Console, and you will be able to run a federation where the guardians actually control the hardware that that that runs the federation. So so, I mean, I've I've got I've got a start line start line here in the office. If we had two more or three more at different locations in the community,
[00:52:12] Unknown:
we could pretty much run our own Alright. Matt Hill. Come on. Matt Hill from start nine. Let's go. Let's get some some more Yeah. Servers over there.
[00:52:22] Unknown:
So that that that becomes very interesting because then, you know, then then then you really do make the community self sovereign in a way. The federation that we have at the moment, like I said, it's cloud based, so I don't know where that hardware is. It is it is basically I mean, obviously, it runs on different software, but but from our perspective, it it's it's very similar to a custodial lightning wallet Yeah. Where, you know, we're trusting we're trusting whoever runs the hardware and the servers. You know? But I know that I know that Fedi has been working on this. And when they launched, it it was quite clear that they had set a very, very difficult task for themselves.
It's not an easy thing to do from a from an engineering perspective to to write an implementation that allows you to do that, is is very, very difficult. So you know? But when when when it becomes available, it's gonna be, we will be one of the first ones to try it out. I mean, we we use the FEDI wallet very, very often in, in in in in the community. A lot of people are walking around with FEDI wallets. The backup the the the the way to back up the wallet is very useful. Allen Bits, we we played around with that. You know, our our kids reward system that we have at the moment, we we're running our second second version of that system.
This the second version is based on BD Space Server, but the previous version of the system was based on Allen Bits. And we've done other things with Allen Bits as well. We we try to play around with all the tools that are available, try and test as much as possible. I mean, when when we first started in in 2021, there was there there's way more available now than there was then. Yeah. There were there were far fewer Lightning wallets available. There were hardly any Lightning wallets that could show you fiat conversion rates to the local to the local currency in South Africa. Mhmm. In order in order for the shops to accept Bitcoiners payment in an easy way, we had to sort of, like, cobble together a few different things that weren't really meant to go together, but we put them together anyway, and it kinda worked.
You know, and things have just become better and better. And it's you know, looking looking back over the last four years, and and that's just the last four years, the improvement
[00:54:57] Unknown:
in the tools that are available are just insane. Which is crazy. Right? Like, I I think about Ellen Beds and lightning splits and everything and just, you know, I've done I I I've done a couple little summits where it's like, okay. Alright. Everybody hit this, you know, QR code if you wanna make a donation or value for value. And then anybody who is a participant in the summit would get instant splits into their wallet based on whatever. We've got 20 panel participants. You know, they each get whatever five percent of that thing. You can do that forever.
And and that's what's so cool, I think, because you don't have to wait for that middleman to, like, give you the payout, you know, if we're looking at whatever, Spotify or Apple or other licensing rights for creative things or even any kind of fundraising stuff. You know? It's just like you've gotta wait for the middleman, whether it's PayPal or Stripe or Venmo or whoever. And you're like, oh, I hope they actually give me the money. You know? And it's just this, like, instant thing. You know? And so, like, when we're doing a livestream or if we're doing a fundraising event, anything, like, when the kids or anybody who can see, like or or the coffee growers, you know, whatever. Like, holy cow. I'm getting sats in my wallet, like, in real time right now because people are zapping me, and I'm just getting this, like, percentage or fountain, you know, or whatever with the the podcasting two point o stuff. So I I think it it it's just like, you know, this is a whole new way for people to look at, like, how value can get transferred instantly over time without a middleman saying, what are you gonna use it for? Like, just this morning, I'm listening to somebody on Spaces, and they're trying to get some money out of their own bank account to go buy a boat for, you know, whatever, couple thousand dollars. And the teller's just like, well, what's it for? You have to tell me what the money's for. And he's like, I don't have to tell you shit. You know? Like, I'm who cares? It's for the new herpes experiment. You know? Whatever it is. It's just like Wow.
Why do they have any power over your money that you've given them to to hold for you? So I think when people start understanding and, unfortunately, we don't understand things until we have that pain point. You know? Until we've got that, like, oh, I can't use my money, or the Canadian government froze my bank accounts because of the trucker protest or whatever. You know? And it's just like, people are not willing to, like, take a look at the system until it actually really hurts them a lot. You know? And I and I feel like Yeah. When we're dealing with kids and, you know, these these folks in impoverished areas who the system has never served, first and foremost. It's completely, you know, hurt them.
They're just like, this is their lifeline to be able to participate in society. You know? This isn't just like a, oh, look. It's number go up, and I'm gonna invest in Bitcoin. It's like, no. I can actually do things that I never would be able to do. You know? And and I think the more we get stories out, like what you're doing with kids, people need to understand this because people in the the, you know, the the first world, they have no they have no clue. There's no clue. You know? And they don't understand, like, what do you mean you're not bankable? What do you mean women don't have property rights? What do you mean you can't send money from here to there kind of thing?
And so I think the more that we share stories like what you're doing and, you know, it can support people understanding why Bitcoin is essentially a medium of exchange. Yay. It's backed by a store of value, which is great. But, until they can kinda get those pain points, it's just it's like la la la la la still. I think 99 I mean, we're still like, our adoption rate is tiny, you know, for for Bitcoin adoption, you know. And I think the more that we tell real stories about how this is transforming people's lives, that's where people who are activists and change makers and environmentalists and human rights folks, they're gonna go, oh, I didn't know that's what was causing the problem of of our society, which is this, you know, rotten fiat.
You know?
[00:59:43] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, even even my I mean, I I've I've I've been living in South Africa my whole life. I grew up here. My family's been here for, sorry, I don't know, ten, twelve generations. So I'm I'm I'm very much I'm very much rooted in this in this country. But even even for me, you know, talking about Bitcoin with friends and family who come from a similar socioeconomic background as myself, once once I started the Bitcoin project in the township, all of a sudden, it was I mean, we've been working in that community for a long time, but we never we never touched on the topic of money and savings and and and that sort of thing. It was a it was just a a surfing program for kids. That's it. There was no.
So so once once we introduced Bitcoin into the equation there, I experienced, surprising surprising ways in which, people became excited about about this thing. You know, one of the one of the most surprising things to me was to see how excited people were to be able to buy, phone credit without having to, with with without having to physically walk to a corner store with cash, because that's that's how you buy phone credit if you don't have a bank account. So if if if you earn if you earn cash from your your your job, you come back home, you know, you're sitting at home, and you realize, oh, my phone credit just ran out.
I can't make a phone call. I can't send WhatsApp messages. The only way to then top up your phone with credit is to take that cash you earned and physically walk to the store where you then buy a piece of paper with a PIN number on it to recharge your phone. And and all of a sudden, we could give people, money, which they could hold digitally on their device. I know it's custodial, but, you know Mhmm. Whatever. The point is the point is they could transact from their device digitally and recharge their phone with credit digitally. And that was just a mind blowing experience. I remember these videos we we did in the early days. It was it was one of the most effective ways to demonstrate Bitcoin within five minutes, to a person who had no idea, what it was. It's to say, hey. Look.
I can buy phone cards for you using this, magic Internet money. And the moment you demonstrated that, they were on board. Yeah. Because it was it was something new that they've never been able to do before. And and and it's like you're solving
[01:02:44] Unknown:
instantly, like you said, within five minutes, the fact that you can demonstrate that. Like, we know that time is the most irreplaceable thing in our lives. Right? And so when you know, I remember learning about remittances in El Salvador. And, okay, cool. We're gonna, you know, send, you know, grandma a hundred dollars worth of of, you know, money. But then she has to get out of her house, go take a bus, go to two hours, go to the Western Union. Now she's only gonna get $93 because of the fees. Now she's got cash in her hands where people clob her over the head and steal her cash. And so that's like a five hour transaction just for her to get less than what the actual value is that's transacted from her, you know, nephew or whoever in in wherever the money is coming from. And when I started hearing about the stories, I was like, oh my goodness.
You know? Like, how what is the multiple of that? How many thousands, tens of thousands, millions, perhaps billions of people have to do that on a daily basis? And then you think about how many hours of human productivity, human satisfaction are wasted on just that simple transaction of just getting some value from, you know, point a to point b kind of thing. And then what are the security risks involved in that that loop? You know? And I think that's something that for me, again, like, you know, that was one of the big moments and not understanding because, you know, as somebody who's bankable, somebody I can, you know, get an app for Bank of America or whatever my my bank is, I'm gonna send some money. I still they may not approve it, you know, but I can send it. But, like, you can't do that in every country.
You know? And and it's just,
[01:04:34] Unknown:
it's Yeah. The security issue is is one of the big concerns. Walk walking around with cash. I mean, people people gets people get stabbed for for for $5.
[01:04:46] Unknown:
Yeah. Or your shoes. I like your shoes. I'm gonna kill you for your shoes. You know? And so it it's it's a scary thing. I mean, what do you think about, again, like, obviously, we've got opportunities to put these, you know, apps on our wall on our phones and stuff. You can delete the app and then just put it on when you need to use it sort of thing. So it's like if somebody, you know, hits you over the head, you can be like, well, I don't have any Bitcoin. I'm just whatever. I look at all my phone stuff or look at my logins. Like, how do you help, you know, the younger generation understand how to secure their Bitcoin in a way that's, like, if somebody gets a hold of their phone, they're not gonna just all of a sudden get all their, you know, all their sats.
[01:05:37] Unknown:
I mean, we we encourage, taking self custody as soon as it's appropriate. So I would say all the all the coaches that that earn enough of a salary where they're actually able to save, are saving using using hardware wallets, and they're they have their seed phrases backed up. So we we try and be as responsible as as possible. I mean, we don't try. We are as responsible as possible. Mistakes have happened, and mistakes will probably happen again. It's unavoidable. But it's it's a it's a matter of it's a matter of prioritizing education, above above all else.
So this is and not so much anymore. My my role has changed quite a bit over the last, sort of three, four years of running this project. But particularly in the first two or three years, my my my my main priority was to to impart as much knowledge of Bitcoin and how it works, especially from the perspective of how do you how do you safely use and store it to to the senior to the senior coaches, so that they can then, in turn, impart that knowledge to the the more junior coaches and to the shop owners. Because there are a considerable number of, business owners who have been, you know, accepting sets as payment
[01:07:22] Unknown:
over the last three, four years. About that. Like, because you're you know, one of the things when we were you know, you talked about, like, let's talk about what a circular economy looks like where you're at and how does that, how does that grow and evolve. Right? Because the kids are obviously like, yeah, I've got sats. I wanna spend them. Are they, like, are they actively out there orange peeling the the vendors and the the shop owners so they can be like, I wanna get some sodas or I wanna get a pair of shorts or a surfboard or whatever with my SATs? Like, are they actively out there trying to help the the vendors and shop owners understand Bitcoin?
[01:08:01] Unknown:
Yes. I wouldn't say the kids are doing that, the older ones maybe, the senior coaches. I don't I I've I've never done any of the onboarding in the township, community itself. I've left that up to the coaches, the ones who earn their salaries and SATs. You know, I I I do the fundraising for the organization, and I pay their salaries. And and the salaries that we pay in Bitcoin, you could kind of call that the the the the pistons of the engine that drives the circular economy. There's other there's other things that we do that that that revolves around that, but that's the core of the engine.
You know, as we we pay ten ten full time salaries and and, you know, roughly roughly 10 part time salaries. And so just through the just through the salaries that we're paying, you know, there's anywhere from anywhere between a 200 people who have direct daily exposure choosing it on a daily basis. Because each one of those coaches who earn a salary in Bitcoin have maybe two or three dependents, you know, wife or a girlfriend, one or two children. And then they're spending their sets at businesses that they've onboarded, you know, little corner stores where you can buy the basic groceries Mhmm. Little little takeaway food restaurants, that sort of thing.
So, you know, it's between thirty and forty businesses. Each business has between two and two or three owners. You know, that's that's close to a hundred people. Coaches plus dependents, that's probably another fifty, sixty people. So it's it's it's anywhere between a 200 people who have have have direct, daily exposure to using BitGo. And that's basically what a circular economy looks like in the beginning. Obviously, you wanted to grow from there. So there's other things that we do as well that we encourage the the flow of sets. We we have a we have a side project where we are paying, we are paying residents of the community, to clean up.
Cool. So we'll come in and we'll we'll paint we'll paint selected Shacks with, with the logos of Bitcoin companies. That attracts a lot of attention. And then in return for painting the shack, we then offer offer the people who live there, look. We'll paint your shack, and then we'll pay you a weekly stipend, but you have to make sure that your place is clean. So pick up pick up the pollution, clean up the rubbish. If you don't clean up, no payment. Wow. And then they they earn yeah. They they then earn that stipend in Sats. And the idea is that they they spend it as as Bitcoin. You know, no conversion to fiat. Uh-huh. Obviously, we can't obviously, we can't control that a %. But if we do find out that they're converting it to fiat, then we'll go talk to them or, you know, check-in with them or whatever. They can also save it. Some some of them do save it, but most of them would spend it, into the circular economy.
So so things like that. I mean, there's there's other stuff that we do that contribute to the circular economy. Like, we we get a lot of clothes that are donated to the charity, because, I mean, we're we're a well well established nonprofit. You know, every everybody in in the in the surrounding city knows about us. We're we're based in Mossel Bay, which is a city of about a 50,000 people. So it's not a it's not a it's not a small insignificant town. It's, you know, it's a it's a large town in South African context. So we get we get a lot of donated clothes over the years, and what we'll do with with that is we we actually sell the clothes for sets. But when I say sell, I mean, people people can can literally get, a t shirt for next to nothing.
They they they come in and they'll pay, like, you know, if we convert convert it to US dollars, they'll pay, like, 20, 20 US dollar cents for for a t shirt, but which is basically nothing. But they have to convert that to Sats first at a lightning 80 ATM that we have in our, facility. And so at in in terms of money, it's costing them nothing. But in terms of time and education, it is costing them something. They have to sit down, download a wallet Mhmm. Learn how to make two transactions, and then they can buy buy the clothes. And and in that way, we kind of also filter out people who are, you know, prepared to do something in return for getting something. And it's not much. You don't have to do much. You just have to sit there for twenty minutes.
And if you have 20 US dollar cents or $1 you know, if if you walk in there with $1, you can basically buy an entire wardrobe. It's not about the amount of money that we're charging. It's about the fact that you're learning about a different form of money, you're learning how to transact in this new form of money, and you're gaining experience with using it. And so things like that contribute to the circular economy as well. There's all kinds of ways of doing this. There's not there's not one perfect way to build a circular economy, but it all comes down to the same thing, which is you want you want Sats to flow peer to peer in the local economy, and you you wanna spend and I think this is the most important thing that many people perhaps don't understand about circular economies is that when when building a circular economy, the key question there's there's two key questions.
The first key question is who's gonna be spending the sites?
[01:14:04] Unknown:
Right.
[01:14:06] Unknown:
Because that's always the hard part. It's easy to onboard a merchant to accept the credit payment.
[01:14:11] Unknown:
Do you think so? Like, I I've not found that to be true. I've found that to be very difficult to onboard merchants because many merchants It's relatively easy. You've gotta do capital gain depending on what jurisdiction you're in, especially here in The States. Like, you know, if you're accepting Bitcoin as payment and, you know, then you wanna transfer it or turn it into fiat or whatever it might be. Like, there's an accounting, there's account an accounting hurdle for them to get over that is like, what do you mean I have to pay capital gains on something that was just like a transaction? And so instead of Yeah. Okay. Cool. I made $10 on a T shirt or, you know, whatever it might be. So so you think it's it's more difficult to get the spenders to participate in the circular economy than it is to get the vendors. The spenders and the vendors.
[01:15:03] Unknown:
I mean, speaking speaking from the perspective of a a predominantly cash based economy, which is where we operate. I understand I understand that in different contexts, it it will be different, but capital gains tax is not something I mean, strictly speaking in South Africa, you do have to pay capital gains tax on on on Bitcoin appreciation because it's it's classified as an asset. But we operate in we operate in an economy that's entirely cash based, and so reporting reporting doesn't happen anyway. So nobody really cares about that.
[01:15:40] Unknown:
It's And that's what's so interesting. Right? Because, like, your whole situation of creating a circular economy is completely different than what we would do here in Boulder, Colorado or what they would do in Berlin No. They're in the or whatever. You know? And so so I think for people who are interested in, you know, any type of adoption and circular economy, you have to understand what's the lay of the land and landscape of your regulatory
[01:16:07] Unknown:
environment. What's what's the context? Yeah. I mean, I when I say it's easy to onboard a merchant, I mean, it's it's relatively easy compared to convincing someone to spend their Bitcoin. That's that's that's more difficult. But it it becomes easier to convince someone to spend their Bitcoin if everything they earn is in Bitcoin.
[01:16:28] Unknown:
Do you help people with, like, the concept of, like, spend and replace
[01:16:32] Unknown:
for the day? You know? Well, the thing is we we don't we don't have to because a % of salaries are paid in Bitcoin. So there's nothing
[01:16:39] Unknown:
there's nothing to replace with. They they don't Well, but that that's your people that you're paying. But, like, new people who are coming on, you know, who are just like, I'll just hodl a little Bitcoin over here. They're not necessarily getting paid in Bitcoin. How how what's your what's your philosophy or, you know, support for them? Because a lot of people, even here in The States, obviously, and everywhere, they're just like, what do you mean I'm not spending my Bitcoin? I'm gonna huddle, huddle, huddle, huddle. And I was like, okay, guys.
[01:17:07] Unknown:
Hello? I mean Yeah. Yeah. I know I know of people who do that. I don't I don't know how effective that is. I've never I've I've never in my life bought Bitcoin. I it it's the only thing that I own. I I don't own anything else other than Bitcoin, but I've never bought Bitcoin because the only Bitcoin I've ever received has been as a form of income. So, personally personally, I've never I've never had to spend and replace because whenever I spend, there's only one thing that I can spend, and that's and that's Bitcoin. I've, you know, I I just so I've I've never I've never done that. I I know that it's it's a thing, and I know many people do it.
I don't have experience with it, and I don't I mean, when I talk to people, I talk to them from from my limited experience of building a circular economy in a very particular environment. Yeah. I have no I have no experience with doing this sort of thing in other environments, only in this particular environment. And in this particular environment, the the the key thing that has made what we do successful is the fact that we pay salaries in Bitcoin. If we if if I had to do what I'm doing now and it was a case of, you know, spend and replace or whatever the case may be, I'm not sure it would have worked in this context. I'm not you know, other contexts might might be different. I know that there are other projects where circular economy circular economies work. I mean, we have one down the road in Witsand, which is a South African town. Socioeconomically, it's completely different from from from what we are doing.
They've been they've also we're very well established. They've been going for about three years. It's only two hours down the road from where we are. We get along with them very well. I know the the the founder of that project very well. We're good friends. We assist one another. But, socioeconomically, it's two completely different environments. One is a much more privileged upper middle class neighborhood. Mhmm. We are obviously an impoverished township. And where they are, they've had to find different ways to encourage people to spend their Bitcoin and much more in line with the spend and replace, approach or other approaches like that.
But I I don't have I don't have any experience with that. The experience that I have is is with this, you know, you know, charity community charity based organization where you you use the fact that all your salaries are paid in Bitcoin as the base layer for for what powers the circular economy. Yeah. And so that's the first most important question is who's spending the Sats? The second question that you have to ask yourself when building a circular economy is when I make this payment in Sats, where are the Sats going? Because if you're paying if you're pay and and and and and services like Bitrefill are very useful, super useful. We've used them a lot. But the fact of the matter is that does not contribute to building a circular economy. It's an off ramp out of a circular economy. Exactly. It's not it's not actually building up the local circular economy. It's a way for people to feel more comfortable with accepting Bitcoin in the circular economy because they know there's an off ramp. Yeah. But if you're onboarding a bunch of people and all they're doing is spending on you haven't actually built a circular economy because the the SaaS has to flow between people within the community.
And that's that's normally the tricky part is to is to is to make people understand that it's not just about onboarding merchants. It's about getting people to spend at those merchants regularly, and then getting those merchants to not simply take the Sats and off ramp it out of Bitcoin into fiat, but then to take the Sats that they receive from the people spending at their businesses and continue the circular spending habit, where they are then spending on another business in the same community, and the Sats flow within the community in a circular fashion. And it's it's a little bit more complicated than what it seems on on the surface. There's there's there's more there's more to it, but it's it's kind of it's kinda subtle.
And it's not it's not something that that is obvious at first sight.
[01:21:33] Unknown:
It's it's not. And I think for obviously, for new people, you know, and even myself, you know, because I'm still bridging fiat and, the Bitcoin world. You know? I'm not in a full Bitcoin standard in my life because of certain, organizations that have to deal with it only will take fiat as payment. Certainly, there's ways around that. I could get the fold card, and I can do, you know, like you said, bit refill and all this stuff. But, you know, once you truly get to that more pristine area of a circular economy that only uses Bitcoin as the medium of exchange, and nobody's trying to off ramp into whatever x y z fiat currency, you know, that's it's so foreign to people.
You know? It's not like a normal way to think about stuff because we're so ingrained in and and indoctrinated into this other world, this fiat world. And, and so it does take time. And so to have these little micro economies, like what you're doing and what Bitcoin Berlin is doing and what El Zonte was doing with Bitcoin Beach, it's still there's fiat there. There's no, like, this is only Bitcoin here. You know? Like, I don't know any communities just yet who are, you know, have got the walled garden and only transact with Bitcoin. It's kind of, you know and and I I don't wanna dilute the potency of Bitcoin, but it's just kind of like if you were in a a video game. Right? And you only play with a certain type of token within that game. And and it's like, well, that's all you use. You're using, you know, Bitcoin ecosi tokens or, you know, whatever.
People aren't used to that yet in the real world. They might be used to it in digital world, you know. And but so to to to bring it out into, you know, humanity two point o kind of thing is it's just not familiar yet because we're so used to wanting to have that backstop or that insurance policy that we think like, okay. I'm gonna off ramp and sell my Bitcoin and go over here and then, okay, I'll do spend and replace or whatever. So it's like it's not a, it's not a well established field yet for people to feel comfortable where the circular economies are gonna, support them. Because it could also feel pretty insular, you know. And it's kinda like, well, is this the only place I get to use my wealth and my worth? You know, is, okay. I'm gonna buy a T shirt and a pupusa and, you know, a solar panel or something. You know? Whatever it is with Bitcoin. And then you're like, well, I can't do anything else because nobody wants my you know? It's just it's a it's a I mean, we're so early, I guess. You know, a lot of people say that, and I really believe that we're still so early. But, like, what you're doing, you know, is is you're you're jumping you're leapfrogging over some of the bridges, you know, and you're helping these kids. And by the fact that you're paying people in Bitcoin, a lot of people don't pay in Bitcoin. You know? It's just kinda like, okay. I'll pay in fiat, and you can go buy some Bitcoin.
So the fact that that's kind of like what you're doing, I think, is is you're a revolutionary.
[01:24:56] Unknown:
Well, I mean, we didn't come up with the idea. We just copied it from someone else. But,
[01:25:01] Unknown:
Everybody does.
[01:25:03] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I think it's also I think it's also important to to point out that that that that the model I the model I described is an ideal. Yeah. It's not it's not something that that we are going to achieve tomorrow or even next year. There there there's going to be a a prevalence of fiat, in the circular economies
[01:25:29] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:25:30] Unknown:
For as long as the fiat still has any value. You know? And so kind of what what we're doing is we're trying to introduce as many people to Bitcoin through the circular economy model. Yeah. And using that model to build to build trust in the system, I think that's that I think that's the one thing that people miss. It's like, but why why would you wanna do this? And and the point the point of a circular economy, for me well, one of one of the reasons you you would wanna do this is because I mean, it's it's it's such a basic thing. Everybody uses WhatsApp. Everybody uses Facebook or x or whatever the case may be. Nobody nobody has a clue how these things work in the background. Like, nobody nobody knows that you know, if if I'm if I'm sitting here and I'm sending a message to a friend who's living in the same town, and they don't understand how WhatsApp works, they might not even they might not even know that that message is traveling across the Internet, across the ocean to a server that's located in a different con on a different continent, and then traveling back to this continent and and and being delivered to their phone. People don't think about that. They simply type the message, they hit send, and they trust that the person on the other side will get the message and see the photo or hear the voice note that they sent to them. Mhmm. And and they trust the system because they've been using it every day for as long as they can remember.
And this is kind of what we're trying to do with Bitcoin, is make it so familiar that people just trust it and go, oh, yeah. Well, I'll just pay you in Bitcoin. Of course. You know, I've been doing that forever. So there we go. You know, I don't because you're not you're not going to explain, you know, expubs and UTXOs
[01:27:34] Unknown:
to every single person. It's just not gonna happen. Yeah. And they don't care. Like, it it No. Perfect example. Should have to. Nobody cares. Like, I don't care how the swift network works. I don't care how the Internet works. I don't care how mobile networks work. All I care about is if I'm trying to transfer a message or some money or whatever it is, that it gets where I want it to go quickly. You know? And and I don't need to know cryptography or any I I don't need to know anything. Like, I just wanna know that, like, the the end goal has been accomplished. And I think that's most of us. You know? And and I want people to understand, like, Bitcoin doesn't have to be this thing where you have to understand all the background. I mean, sure, if you're, you know, interested in that and geek out on it, go for it. But, like, there is a level it's like this weird trustless system, but you do have to kinda trust it in a way too.
[01:28:30] Unknown:
So it's like Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, some a certain number of people will need to understand it within the context of a project like this. Yeah. Certainly, the person leading the project will have to understand it. I'm fascinated by it. I'm obsessed with it. I've done as much as I can to study and understand as much as possible. Like I said, I'm not a developer, I don't write code, but I've probably learned more about computers because of Bitcoin than I otherwise ever would have. Totally know, right? Yeah, and it's just because I find the whole system so fascinating. So, I do understand what an X Pub and a UTX are, and blah blah blah, and all those things, but you know what? And a certain number of the people who run the project with me will have to understand that, but not not not even nearly the majority of the people in the community where we're introducing Bitcoin
[01:29:26] Unknown:
will understand all the complexities. They will need to understand the basics. If you're saving in Bitcoin, this is your seed phrase, make sure it safe. If you lose this, you lose everything. Right. If that is And you're your own bank. There's no customer support that's gonna, like, get you out of your your thing. I mean and I think that's something I I mean, I don't know. I'd be curious. And I and, you know, I know we're over a little our time a little. I have a couple more questions for you. Like, obviously, you know, as as hardcore Bitcoiners, you know, we're, like, interested in self sovereignty. We're interested in hold your own keys, not your keys, not your cheese, dah dah dah. You know? And then there's this whole other group of people who were like, I'm just gonna buy an ETF, or I'm just gonna go buy MicroStrategy, or I'm gonna do whatever, and I think that I own Bitcoin.
You don't own Bitcoin. You know? Is that, like do people understand the difference between what they think is exposure to Bitcoin versus what is actually huddling and holding your own keys, like, where you're at?
[01:30:29] Unknown:
I mean, we make as much effort as we possibly can to make sure that people understand that difference. So we we do we'll do we'll do monthly workshop with the coaches. You know, they recently did a workshop, for example, where they would, where where our senior coaches would would run through the difference between Blink Wallet, for example, as a fully custodial wallet, Aqua Wallet as a federated self custody. Because, yes, you do own private keys, but the private keys are for, for UTXO that UTXO is that's on the liquid blockchain. You you own liquid Bitcoin. And it's not the same as the Bitcoin blockchain because the liquid blockchain is is it's a it's a federated model, whereas Bitcoin is a completely decentralized model. So there's trade offs. So we we you know? And and then we run through the whole exercise of, you know, if you're gonna stack Sats, you can do it in Blink, but here's the trade offs. You can do it with Aqua, here's the trade offs. You can do it on chain, but then if you're creating a bunch of UTXOs, there's that trade off too because, you know, the fees is gonna cost you an arm and a leg in the future if you've stacked, you know, a hundred small UTXOs. So we we we try we try and, we try and do as much as we can to to educate our senior team. So this these are the people that you know, there's, like, maybe four, five people who who who are at the most senior level, together with myself who oversee, you know, the rest of the operation. We we try and make sure that they understand as much as possible, and then and then that knowledge hopefully trickles down, where where it's needed.
But, yes, they certainly understand the difference, between a custodial wallet and a and a self custody wallet. They they definitely understand the difference, because it's important. Like, that's it's it's you would be irresponsible to to introduce Bitcoin into a person's life and not to explain the trade offs to the extent that that person can understand it. Sure. Obviously.
[01:32:38] Unknown:
Yeah. And, obviously, it's like we wanna you know, depending on who our audiences are I mean, anything. It's like how what's the most simple way that we can explain this versus that? What are the trade offs, etcetera? And so, again, like, a lot of people are not interested in that personal responsibility of holding their own keys. They're happy to have a a password and a password manager, and they hope they can call Coinbase or some other company and get the the things going. But I'm like, if you need to, like, literally get out of Dodge real quick, like, you're not gonna have access. You have paper Bitcoin. You don't have Bitcoin. You know? If you and so I think for a lot of people, it's important to give them kind of a blended experience, you know, and just be like, hey. If you're not totally comfortable putting your whole stash in self custody just yet, like, let's see what it looks like for, you know, $20 or $50 or hundred dollars, you know, and so that you can understand. And then how do you recover things if you think you've lost it, whatnot?
It's a new way of thinking just like email and .coms and at symbols and all this stuff was a new way of thinking. You know, twenty five years ago, when the Internet was kinda coming up, people were just like, what is what do you mean my business needs a website? What do you mean I'm supposed to have an email? You know? And people didn't. They would just reject it. You know? And they're like, that's just some newfangled nonsense. You know? But now, of course, it's ubiquitous. Any business has a website. Any human who's pretty much an adult who's working in the world has an email. You know? And you're not like, this is it just it's sort of a normal thing. And so I think, you know, over time, we'll we'll we'll be able to support people understanding, like, it's okay to hold your own keys. And, yeah, you have to have them backed up. Yeah. You might go take a piece of metal and bury it in your yard or something like that so that, like, your dog didn't eat up the piece of paper or something like that. So I don't know. I just feel like it's definitely a work in progress. Can I I I and I know, again, I wanna be respectful of your time?
And I'm gonna ask you this last question, and I asked you this before we went live. You know, on your on your Twitter profile, it said, you know, recovering addict. And, you know, I've been in a situation with some stuff in my life too. Like, do you care to talk about that and perhaps give some people some inspiration about your life and your story and your background of of how you got to where you are right now?
[01:35:15] Unknown:
Yeah. Sure. And, that's I mean, I I'm quite open about it. You know, I, when it it's funny because I I was introduced to to Bitcoin at pretty much the same time that I walked into recovery from drug addiction for the first time. Both of those things Wow. Both of those things happened in 02/2013. And, I mean, I just I mean, this is this is why the the whole idea of, you know, personal responsibility Yeah. In the context of Bitcoin just makes complete sense Yeah. To me because I learned through recovery from drug addiction that there is only one way, to to solve an addict's problem, and that is if if that person themselves wants to recover.
I've I've been, you know, I've I've I've been I've been part of the local, local 12 step, meeting for for the last, I don't know what's it been now, thirteen years. And I've seen I've seen people walk in there with mothers crying, fathers crying, you know, husbands, wives crying because they just don't know what else to do. This person is ruining their own life. They're ruining the lives of the people around them. They've fucked up everything. They stole from everyone. They're an absolute mess. And the family is sitting there and just asking, like, please help us. What do we do? And as as as as harsh as it is, the answer to that question is there's nothing I can do for you if that person who you're here with, the addict themselves, don't want recovery.
If they don't want recovery and they're not willing to take responsibility for this problem, there's there's nothing that you can do. They have to be the ones who decide. I want to stop. And if they do that, then, you know, there's a way. There's there's there's a way to live clean. So this this idea of personal responsibility is, is is a is a core, a core part of my, my life. I I I don't know I don't know if I'd be alive if it wasn't for that understanding because, obviously, I had to go through a process where I had to take responsibility and stop blaming everything and everyone else. Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm getting high because of this. I'm using because of this. You know? This person did that to me. You know? That that person did that to me. It's everybody else's fault except mine. Yeah.
And and so this this I this this idea of extreme personal responsibility in Bitcoin just makes absolute sense to me. That's why Yeah. That's that's that's one of the reasons why, you know, I I I I don't wanna say this in the wrong way because it it it can come off like you you might you know, it's easy to misinterpret. But you often hear people say that they came across Bitcoin, and it didn't make sense to them, and and they forgot about it, and they only came back years later. When when I first came across Bitcoin, I I didn't understand what it was straight away.
But when when I read about it in that in that Bitcoin magazine, that my friend gave me and I read about it, the concept made sense to me right off the bat because I looked at this and I was like, oh, wow. So this is a system where you take extreme personal responsibility. Mhmm. Yeah. That's the only way that that that that people actually like, we don't like to admit it, but that's actually the only way that people can live in a healthy functioning society. Like Yeah. There is there is no other way. The moment you start handing over responsibility, you create the incentive for centralized control and corruption.
And, ultimately, at the end of the day, there is no system of of authority that works, properly, that involves an authority that is not internal. Whenever you have external authority enforcing rules, you've created incentive and circumstance for corruption. And so I I didn't I didn't I I I really did not understand the technical details behind it, but the the the the ethos and the concept made made sense to me straight away because it was like, yeah. This is this is the only obvious obviously, this is the only real solution. Everything else is kinda like a band aid. Like, yeah, you can, you know, you can you can disincentivize people from committing crimes by having a police force and by having rules and laws that that that say, if you do this, then this is gonna happen, and you're gonna go to jail. You can disincentivize people from doing the wrong thing, But you're never going to eliminate that wrong thing from a person's life with that disincentive if the authority that enforces that is external rather than internal.
[01:40:52] Unknown:
Exactly. It's like extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation. Right? And you wanna have and that's where true growth happens. That's where true learning happens. That's where true transformation happens. And I think it's like a it's a developmental spiral. Right? You know, when you're younger, it's kind of like, oh, my mom did this or the society did this or and you wanna put the the the blame as you, you know, say on everybody else except you because there was a circumstance or there was an experience or there was a whatever. But once you kinda hit a point of maturity in your life, you know, in your spiritual evolution, you realize, like, wow. It's all me.
It's all me, and it's all me plus God, universe, spirit, whatever you call that greater, you know, life force that, you know, I I say God. And so until you can get to that that true point of self ownership, like, you're always gonna be at the whim of something outside of you, and you will be powerless forever, in my opinion. You know? And and until you can say, like, it you know, like, however I my perspective is on the situation, whatever my behavior is on the situation, you know, until you can take complete, like, every single micro moment is yours, you are gonna be, at the whim of something outside of you.
You know? And I think that's what's that's what's interesting about Bitcoin, you know, because it's just, like, it's just math. It's nothing. You know? Literally, it's Yeah. It's math. Yeah. It's truly just math. You know? It takes
[01:42:36] Unknown:
the it it takes the, it takes the it removes the it removes the circumstance that allows for for centralized corruption. It it it just it just removes that out of the picture. And and this is what this is what a lot of people still don't understand is that they they think that, yeah, but if we just get the right people into positions of power. And it's like, no. This is this is a feature of human nature. It is a it is a feature of human nature that if you have power over another person, and you are the one who becomes responsible for their decision making process, you are you are susceptible to corruption. And it is a it is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of people who will not succumb to that temptation.
And those are not the kind of people who will ever find themselves in positions of power because they don't want that kind of power Exactly. In in the first place. And so, I don't know if I don't know if a society like this is possible. I think probably it's not. I think probably you will always have some people who just choose to hand over their responsibility. You know? It's unfortunately unfortunately, the success rate of recovery, from addiction is very low. And that is because the vast majority of people don't want to take responsibility for their problems. They avoid it specifically because it's difficult. It's very difficult. It's it's the difficult choice to say, look, I know this feels fucked up, but what did I do to contribute to the situation rather than it's his fault, it's her fault, it's their fault, blah blah blah. So I don't know if a society like this is is possible.
And I think it's slightly idealistic not slightly. I think it's it's very, very idealistic and naive to think that every single person on the planet will one day be fully responsible for themselves, and we will live in a utopian world where everybody takes full personal responsibility. I don't I don't think that's gonna happen. But if we can create systems that function according to those principles and understandings, it will vastly improve the world that we live in. And Bitcoin is such a system. And there are other systems like that that we can build that we can build too. And and I think the the the the recovery program that that I'm a part of, which is a twelve twelve step recovery program, is one such system. It's a completely decentralized system that is that is there are there are guidelines, so to speak, but there is no central authority that enforces those guidelines. Right. And and it's it's it's it's part it's voluntary participation.
[01:45:31] Unknown:
Yes. And you know that if you go to a 12 step meeting for whatever, alcohol, eating, gambling, drugs, whatever, spending anywhere on planet Earth, you know that there's, like, a formula for the most part that they follow for a particular meeting. And it's like, these are the ethos. These are the values. This It's how we do it. We sponsor, etcetera. And and it's very, it's amazing because you can just show up wherever and just know that you're at least with a group of like minded hearted people who have a certain similar goal. Though, let me ask you this, and this is something that, you know, I created I I did 12 step for alcohol, you know, nine, eight years ago.
I thought the program's great. I think the groups are great. I think it's, ultra powerful peer to peer. The one thing that got me in in it, pushed me out of the rooms was to you know, well, it's two things. You know? I I got to the point where I was like, yay. You can lead a group because you've been here for a year, you know, whatever. And I showed up, and it's like my women's, you know, AA group. And I brought some music in. I'm a DJ. And I'm like, yay. I'm gonna be the leader for today, and I'm gonna do my little thing. We're gonna play some good music and move our bodies around, and then we'll do our typical, you know, format of how the thing was. Everybody looked at me like I was just evil that I brought music into the group. And I was just like, you guys, like, when you have, like, your vibrations are high in music, could it could instead of just all of us sitting here complaining about what happened in the past, like, let's think about our future and, you know, about the beauty of the future, you know? And so that was sort of a, like, that was a smackdown for me for sure. And I felt like, gosh. Are you guys really attached to being wounded?
You know? And and so that made me feel a little concerned. And then the second part, and and I'd be curious again from your perspective, when you have an identity. Right? Like, for me, I I I identify as a child of god, period. Nothing is above that. Everything else is sort of like little colorations of that. And so when you go into, you know again, just I'll just use my life experience as an example with AA. You know, you're supposed to say, hi. My name is Valerie. I'm an alcoholic and la la la. Like and I wouldn't say that. Like, I was just like, I'm I'm Valerie. Nice to meet you. You know? And I'm somebody, obviously, who used alcohol as a self soothing mechanism because I had so much pain and trauma, and I didn't know how to deal with shit. But, like, I don't identify as the the thing. Like you know? And so the word addict or alcoholic or any of the the labels, like, I always believe people either rise above rise up to a label or they fall down to the label? Like, what's been your experience with with labels? And I I wanna be quick about this. Obviously, I don't wanna take up too much time. But, like, do you feel like that's something that is a a limiting, you know, use of letters for people's, you know, in your in your life, in your personal journey?
[01:48:50] Unknown:
I mean, it could be. It it could be. So I guess it's a personal thing. I I I guess to your first point, there's for me for me, the under it's it's it's important to to remember that I should not confuse the, what's I forget I forget the saying. But so so these these meetings, these 12 step meetings are made up of human beings. Mhmm. And and and and they're they're imperfect, just as we all are. Yeah. And and so, you know, many of these meetings are run-in ways that I might not find agreeable. The meeting that I go to, I've been on the verge of not attending that meeting anymore many, many, many times because I don't agree with the people in the meeting.
[01:49:39] Unknown:
And and this is the nature of of of of the the this is human nature. You know? Yeah. So any social meeting. Any it doesn't even have to be recovery meeting. Just be like, yeah. I've devoted, like, my pottery meeting or something. Yeah. And so
[01:49:53] Unknown:
and so I I I remind myself of the fact that the the the fellowship is is one thing, and that's the people who are sitting there in the meeting and making up the meeting. And then and there's personalities, and there's histories, and there's biases, and there's all kinds of shit that comes with that. You know? And then and then there's then there's the guidelines itself. And those guidelines are are universal spiritual principles that Yeah. That are are true across space and time and have been, as far as I'm concerned, for for forever.
It's not something that that was created by NA. It's not something that was created by any particular religion. It's something that there's a common thread that runs through most spiritual traditions, and and these these guidelines tie into that. One of the one of the fascinating things for me about about the 12 step program, is that, at least in NA, which which is Narcotics Anonymous, not not Alcoholics Anonymous, at least in NA as far as I know, it allows the individual to to come to an to come to their own understanding of these principles. You're not supposed to ever tell someone else this is what you should believe, this is what you should not believe. Yeah. Because, again, that's external authority.
That is not me forming my own understanding through my own personal experience that this is in fact true. I might come to the same understanding as someone else, but if I don't go through my own experience to form that understanding, it's an external authority that's telling me what to believe and what not to believe. And so I think I think with a lot of meetings, there might be things that people say and do that that could turn people away, and I've heard I've heard that story many, many times. Sometimes it's a matter of, orthodox religion coming into the meetings, and people get turned away because of that.
You know, people confuse the spiritual tradition with a religious tradition, And then people who are not religious get turned away from the meeting because they think it's a religious where it's not supposed to be. Right. Yeah. That's a very, very familiar story as well. And so I just I just have to remind myself again and again that the people who are at the meeting and their response to what I'm saying and doing, that's not the guidelines. The guidelines is much bigger than that. And so I think it's useful to to to to try and remember not not to confuse the two, which is very difficult, admittedly.
The other thing is, you know, the label of addict is yeah. I guess if you I guess if you identify I mean, I still call myself an addict, but I do that not because not because it's a label that I identify with. I do it because it reminds me where I came from. And I do it because it reminds me how easy it could be to go back there if I don't practice certain spiritual principles. It's not when I when I when I sit down and say, hey. How's it? My name is Armand. I'm an addict. I'm not saying I'm an addict in the sense that this is something that I that I identify with. I'll never be able to get over it. Blah blah blah. I'm saying it because I know where I came from, and I know how dangerous it is to forget where I came from. And I know how dangerous it how dangerous it can be to think that it's impossible for me to go back there. Right. Because I've I've seen people relapse.
I've seen people die because of relapse. I've seen people lose everything, come into recovery, and then lose everything again because they think that, oh, this is not a dangerous thing for me anymore. I can now use successfully. And the second time they try that experiment, it's worse than the first time, And they lose even more than they did the first time. So I wanna make sure that I don't put myself under any illusions that it's okay for me to start using again. You know, I I I've got nothing against drugs. I know people who use them successfully, and it's a lot of fun. It looks like it's a lot of fun, at least. I just know that for whatever reason, I can't do that. I I don't need to know why. I just know that I tried that experiment millions of times, and it was never successful. Not once. Not once that I used drugs successfully. It was always a fuck up. So I know I can't go back there. And if I have to identify identify as an addict just to remind myself to not go back there, that's fine by me. It's Yeah. It's not a it's not a label that I that I, you know, I it's not a label that I carry as a definitive statement on who or what I am. There is, as you say, there are more fundamental things than that. I am not fundamentally an addict. Fundamentally, fundamentally, I would probably call myself similar to what you call yourself, a child of God, although I probably use different words.
But fundamentally, you know, at the end of the day, the only thing that it that that I can fundamentally call myself is that. The the the label addict is a super it's a superficial addict. It's just a it's just a reminder to tell myself, you better not you better not go back there. Because that that was that was really fucked up. That was not a nice place to be. And it it it's it's no matter no matter what you think, it's not worth it's not worth risking going back there.
[01:55:42] Unknown:
And and I think that's super duper important, and I love that because, again, we all have our own, sticky notes to remind ourselves of, like, don't take the left path. Go over here to the right. It's safer kinda thing. And so if it's like if we need to have, like, a big neon sign that reminds us of that, like, whatever that looks like, it's important that we understand that for our own self. You know? And so so I really, really, really appreciate you sharing this and being honest. And, you know, a lot of people are very reluctant, you know, until they get, you know, as, obviously, you and I have both been to this rock bottom of certain things, you know, where it's like, shit needs to change, like, right now, or I'm gonna be dead, or I'm gonna hurt somebody, or, you know, all the things that could happen. And, unfortunately, human nature is that way.
Right? We're not like, a lot of time you know, I look at the bell curve from kinda like when we're kinda going up. I'm like, yeah. Something doesn't look right, but I got this. I'm cool. I'm strong. I'm, you know, I can handle it. You know, whatever it might be until we get over that that, like, like, uh-oh. I just crashed, and I can't handle it. And I'm a vulnerable human. And so and, unfortunately, until sometimes that happens, people are not willing to admit to themselves, like, I must change now. You know? And and I think that's a a thing that we all share in common that we've been in the rooms together, you know, that it's like we've been over that hump where we thought we got it, and then it's like, now you don't. It's it's a it's a fascinating
[01:57:22] Unknown:
I I find it I I don't I don't actually I don't I don't actually spend enough time talking about this because it's always just Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin. But, Yeah. I I only I only know two things. Well, let's put it another way. I I only know one other thing that is similar to Bitcoin. Mhmm. I think I think most people don't know anything else that is similar similar to Bitcoin because Bitcoin is unlike anything else that's ever existed before. Mhmm. But I I only know one other thing that's similar to Bitcoin, and that is the the network of of recovery programs as I have experienced it.
It's it's a it's it's a it's a fascinating it's a fascinating comparison. I mean, one one one of the most one of the most interesting parallels between the two is that how how misunderstood they are. I mean, Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin is is is so badly misunderstood even even today, especially and and and, you know, five years ago, even even more so. It's it's so misunderstood. Yeah. Halsted recovery programs is is completely misunderstood. There's this there's this almost comic comic, view that people have on it, which is it's like, you sit down in a circle and you say, hi. My name is and then you tell a sad story and that's it. It's like, no, man. It is so much more than that. It is a it is a it is a program for living that that brings you back to a spiritual reality, which is the only reality, where there's, you know, a higher power that is ultimately, you know, ultimately in control of everything.
And to me, it's like to me, it's like the ultimate ultimate form of religion because it allows you to truly discover that reality for yourself. It doesn't push you in one direction or the other. And and it's it's just it it's this process of of learning and learning and discovery. And it's it's so it's it's so similar to Bitcoin in so many ways. It's also a decentralized network where you have these groups who all follow more or less the same guidelines, but there's no one group that tells another one what to do. Right. Kind of like kind of like nodes on the network. You know? You you can run your own node, and as long as you follow the same rules or does the rest of the nodes on the network, you're part of the same network. If you don't, you're kind of forking off onto your own. It's it's very similar it's very similar in that regard. It's also very similar in the in the regard that, you know, Bitcoin is this system of of of of of of math, ultimately. That's what it comes down to. It's mathematics, and it's this it's this tether between between mathematics and real world energy that that makes Bitcoin work. It's because Bitcoin is connected to real world energy that it works as a form of money. You can't fake You can't fake energy. Yeah. You can't for you
[02:00:18] Unknown:
can't, for you know, forge or, you know, make it what is it? Forfit. Not forfeit. You can't you can't forge it. You can't Forged it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't just all of a sudden go, cool. I'm making another million dollars of Bitcoin. It's like Yeah. That that's what people don't get. And I think that's what such an I mean, that's a whole obviously, a huge other conversation for folks listening, but it's like, you can't just spin up out of thin air a decimal point that you move from the left to the right or whatever and add some more, you know, quote, unquote, value on someone's balance sheet or their account. Like Yeah.
It is proof of work. There is energy. It costs money to create that energy to Yeah. Create those those, you know, those sats and Exactly. Not even even, like, mining for gold. You know? Yeah. You have to go, like, get a shovel or whatever you're gonna go get or a little pan, or giant, you know, bulldozer. There's energy that has to go into mining that gold. However, we don't know if there's, okay, just a tiny bit left or if there's like, oh, wow. There's a whole another gold mine over here that's gonna completely flood the market. And, you know, so with the scarcity component of Bitcoin for people listening, it's like there's been nothing ever revealed, created, invented, whatever the words are that folks like to use for Bitcoin, like this on planet Earth. You know? Fiat, you can you can print money out of thin air.
Gold, yes, you've got proof of work, but you've also got the ambiguity of is there a scarce number, you know, of units of gold out there. Yeah. And so these are all, inefficiencies in those types of, money, currencies, and stuff. And so Bitcoin, it's just it's a revolutionary, revelation.
[02:02:14] Unknown:
Yeah. But it's in in a very in a very similar way where you cannot fake you cannot fake the proof of work that goes into creating a valid hash Yeah. Which then creates the next block, which then creates the next, block reward, which is the the creation of Bitcoin. You you there's no way to fake that. It is it is in in recovery from addiction, it's one of the very, very few places where proof of work becomes so obvious. Yeah. Because an addict an addict is going to use and get high every day. Guarantee. That's the one thing you can trust them to do. They will do whatever it takes to get that next fix. And a recovered a recovering or a recovered addict is someone who used to do that, and everybody knows them as that, but they no longer do that. And there's no way to fake that. It is it is it is the difference is like night and day, and and and it's it's impossible to fake. You know, I can I I can I can form part of another group, and I can pretend to be part of this group, and perhaps I can keep up that pretense? But when it comes to recovery from addiction, it is impossible to pretend that I am clean if I'm not actually clean and recovering. Yeah. The proof of work is is is as as close to unfakable as as anything as anything that I've ever seen. And that's another one of the very very interesting parallels. There's there's lots of interesting parallels between the two, which it's it's not you know, it's it's it's a topic that I haven't actually seen seen discussed enough. I mean, the other very interesting parallel is the fact that fiat is is addiction. I mean, money printing. It's Totally. If you look if you look at central banks and how they behave and how politicians just wanna fix everything by printing money, it is literally it is the behavior of an addict.
There's there's nothing else that describes it,
[02:04:12] Unknown:
better than that. And so, anyway, it's it's a fascinating conversation too. It is. And I think, you know, what's so cool is, you know, there's a lot of folks like you and I out here in the community who have had issues with, you know, whatever our substance of choice was And, you know, whether, you know, Bitcoin came first or recovery came first or whatever it was, I think there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of interesting overlaps and conversations to be had, which maybe we can do in spaces with some folks in the future, you know, and talk about this. Because, I mean, I have, like, tons of people who reach out to me when I talk about this. They're like, oh, I had this. You know? So I think it could be a it could be a cool spaces that we do. But, but I I wanna wrap it up right now, and I wanna just like, wow. This has been an incredible I know you and I could probably talk for another two hours.
I'm supposed to be on a call with somebody who you might know, man like Quex. You know him? Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna be talking about some some cool stuff just on a not a a video. You know? Not another podcast, but eventually a podcast. But let's let that how can everybody find you? Like, what's the best way for people to kinda get a hold of you and make sure that we can support Bitcoin e Qazi and the Surfer Kids?
[02:05:34] Unknown:
I mean, I I suppose x is the best place to do that. Okay. But there are x. But I I I do try and check DMs, as much as possible, but they say, oh, there's so much crap. It's always sometimes difficult to Yeah. Filter through all of it. Otherwise, we do have a contact form on the website. Okay. The website is bitcoin ekasi dot com. And then for people who wish to donate, they can go to support.bitcoinekasi.com? Yeah. Awesome. We we also we also do have fundraisers on on Geyser. We've got two fun fun fundraiser projects running there, so you can search for, you can search for bitkorekase on Geyser. But, otherwise, support.bitkorekase.com.
That's that's our main our main, platform for for, for donations. And, yeah, I mean, we're we're in the process of fundraising to build a new center. All the details are on the fundraising page. Cool. It's by far the biggest project that we've undertaken so far, and, it's gonna be epic.
[02:06:35] Unknown:
I can't wait. Well and and then I saw you just posted something today about you're looking for a social media person for adopting Bitcoin in, South Africa in January. And so is that something are you guys, like, cosponsoring or co hosting, or how does that work with adopting?
[02:06:53] Unknown:
So the first edition of Adopting Bitcoin was in 2024, and we were I suppose you could say the the the cohosts. It was Bitcoin Iqasi and Machampura Cool. That basically put on that that conference. I I almost I almost pushed my wife to the point of walking out because of that first conference. Oh, no. We don't want that. We don't want that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To confirm that. But it's it's fine. We we made it through that. And Good. With with the second one this year in 2025, we got more help on board. Good. So that one was just in January now, and then with the next one. So, yeah, I suppose I mean, the conference the the adopting Midway conference started because of myself and Keiji from Macho Kura. We kind of Cool. Were the two people that came together and said, look. We have to make this happen. Keiji's the best man. I love him. Yeah. He's awesome. But, yeah, we are looking for someone to do social media for the for the conference for next year. It'll be the third time we're doing it, and the dates are confirmed for January.
[02:07:57] Unknown:
You should get a hold of Lorraine, like, for like, Queen Marcel. Like, she's got a hold like, she's starting to put together, like, a Bitcoin talent pool from all the BTC datas. And so because I reached out to her and I was like, I need somebody to do my video and do some stuff. So perhaps, you know, some of the ladies over there could be a good fit. And she just was like and literally, this was just yesterday. She was like, well, send me a list of, like, your requirements or who you're looking for and what their skills are. So perhaps that might be a nice, you know, a nice fit for you guys.
[02:08:30] Unknown:
So Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll see what what applications we get. We've also reached out to a few people privately. We'll see what we get. Cool.
[02:08:37] Unknown:
But yeah. That'll be great, man. Yeah. It's gonna be great. Well, hopefully, I'll get to come there. I wanna come to ABC in December. I've gotta look for some sponsors to get myself over there. It's definitely, it's on my bucket list of of trying to help and support. So that'll be cool. Well, so thank you so much for taking time to, you know, do this and talk with us. And I can't I'm I'm you're on my bucket list to come visit you and the kids and, like, the programs and what you're doing. And, I I just feel like it's not just a bunch of philosophy, which is nice out there to have Bitcoin philosophy. Like, you're actually doing Bitcoin in action. And that's what I think makes what you do so powerful. And the fact that you do it with young people, you know, and you're helping them change their perspectives and their lives and look to the future with hope that they're not just like, oh, I'm in this yucky system wherever I am.
Like, you're you're definitely one of my Bitcoin heroes. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Alright. I mean, you're welcome to visit anytime. We we welcome you. I will. I it's it's not it's happening. It's definitely happening. Hopefully, this December slash January. I don't know. We'll see what what goes on with my schedule, but I definitely wanna be down there. But I appreciate your time. And, everybody who's listening, I'll put all the the links in the show notes. And thanks again, Herman, for for taking time to be with us. Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate it. Alright, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Peace, love, and aloha.
[02:10:09] Unknown:
Thank you. Bye bye. Totally.
Introduction to Hermann Vivier and Bitcoin eKasi
Transition to Bitcoin Standard
Hermann's Journey into Bitcoin
Bitcoin as Medium of Exchange and Store of Value
Empowering Kids with Bitcoin
Challenges and Success Stories
Building a Circular Economy
Spending Bitcoin in the Community
Understanding Bitcoin Custody
Personal Responsibility and Recovery
Parallels Between Bitcoin and Recovery
