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How many myths have you been told about Bitcoin's environmental impact? My special guest Elliot David from the Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol is on a mission to help the world understand the truth about the environmental benefits and myths of Bitcoin. 

• Elliot debunks common misconceptions about Bitcoin's energy consumption and explains how SBP is pioneering transparency and sustainability in the Bitcoin network. 
• We explore the innovative ways Bitcoin mining can drive the energy transition and support sustainable development, particularly in energy-poor regions. 
• Elliot shares his journey from working in energy and climate sectors to integrating Bitcoin as a climate tech solution. 
• We discuss the potential of Bitcoin mining to utilize stranded renewable energy and its role in electrifying remote communities. 
• The conversation also touches on the challenges and opportunities of integrating Bitcoin with global energy systems and the importance of collaboration between Bitcoin advocates and the climate community. 
• Tune in to discover how Bitcoin can be a force for good in the fight against climate change and energy poverty.

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(00:00:03) Debunking Bitcoin Myths

(00:01:19) Introduction to Elliot David and Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol

(00:02:03) Promoting Transparency in Bitcoin Mining

(00:03:08) Elliot's Journey from Energy to Bitcoin

(00:04:22) Energy Challenges in Puerto Rico

(00:06:12) Renewable Energy Potential in Puerto Rico

(00:09:00) The Importance of Reliable Energy Access

(00:10:26) Understanding Power Grids and Energy Demand

(00:13:36) Bitcoin Mining as a Flexible Energy Solution

(00:17:15) Bitcoin Mining in Remote Communities

(00:21:35) Stranded Renewable Energy in Emerging Markets

(00:25:19) Challenges of Bitcoin Mining in Global South

(00:28:00) Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol's Role

(00:32:39) Investing in Infrastructure for Bitcoin Adoption

(00:35:08) How Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol Works

(00:41:08) Market Demand for Sustainable Bitcoin Certificates

(00:48:05) Pricing and Trading of Sustainable Bitcoin Certificates

(00:54:35) Addressing Historical Bitcoin Mining

(00:56:38) Energy Use of AI vs. Bitcoin

(01:03:03) Public Perception and Adoption Challenges

(01:08:13) Elliot's Personal Journey in Bitcoin

(01:16:42) Political Implications of Bitcoin Adoption

(01:21:05) Bitcoin as a Unifying Force

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[00:00:03] Unknown:

There's a lot of misinformation,   lies and FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt about Bitcoin boiling the oceans,   Bitcoin using too much energy,   Bitcoin is bad for the Earth, etc. My next guest, Elliot David of Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol,   talks about   how these are myths and how Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol is helping move the needle forward on a $10,000,000,000,000   industry of getting climate tech   moving forward. And so, Bitcoin is actually   interesting as a climate tech. Who would have thought that? So tune in to this episode. You guys are going to love it and I hope you have the best day of your whole life. Thanks again for tuning in to Bitcoin For Peace. Thanks.   Hey, aloha. Get ready for an epic episode. And if you love it, please share it. You know why? Because you got the love. Enjoy, my friends.  

Hey. Aloha, Love Tribe. Welcome to Bitcoin for Peace. Guess who I have here with me. I have someone who's a myth buster   and a warrior for a safer, healthier, clean planet.   This is Elliot David of the Sustainable   Bitcoin Protocol. Welcome, my friend.  

[00:01:36] Unknown:

Thank you for having me. Really, it's a pleasure. Yeah. Thanks for being so,  

[00:01:40] Unknown:

accommodating to my my schedule and having to reschedule this. I think this is our 3rd reschedule, so thank you so much for being so flexible,   Elliot.  

[00:01:50] Unknown:

Bitcoin keeps you busy. So, you know, happy I'm happy that we managed to find the time.  

[00:01:55] Unknown:

Me too. Well, so let's talk to the audience. Like, let's let everybody know who you are, what's a sustainable Bitcoin protocol,   and, how'd you get here?  

[00:02:04] Unknown:

Sure.   So,   you know, SPP, essentially, what we've set out to do is,   you know, promote transparency and sustainability in the Bitcoin network, also, you know, alleviate some of the concerns that investors might have, basically promote Bitcoin adoption   by creating this, like, transparency layer for the network.   And in addition to that,   we   recognized,   you know, a challenge where Bitcoin miners that wanted to use sustainable energy sources,   but didn't necessarily have a way to price that in into their, you know, into their, operations.   So that's what we've solved for. We've created a way essentially to price in the environmental benefit of sustainable Bitcoin mining.  

So both transparency and actually using market based solutions to drive,   the sustainability of the of the Bitcoin network.  

[00:02:56] Unknown:

And how did you get involved with yeah. How did you get involved in   Bitcoin? And, you've obviously got a huge background in, the environment. Why don't you let everybody know how you got how did you blend these two worlds?  

[00:03:08] Unknown:

Sure. So, you know, no, it's funny. I I find that especially as Bitcoin mining has become   sort of has grown to industrial scale, you see a lot of Bitcoiners that come into the energy space.   Mhmm.   Or maybe they're starting to pull in people from the energy space. I was somebody who was working in energy and climate for a while, and then   sort of before I even understood the, you know, the important philosophical   and monetary freedom, financial inclusion implications of Bitcoin   Mhmm. Really just from a power and energy perspective,   kind of came into the space.  

So my my background, you know, I've spent the last, decade or so   working across the private prop you know, nonprofit, public sectors,   in climate and energy.   I would say in particular, I started to get really interested in energy poverty,   in around 20,   2017,   or 2016, 2017 after hurricane Maria, and Irma hit Puerto Rico.   You know, and for the listeners that aren't familiar, you know, Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States,   had about 3,000,000 people living there at the time, which   as far as states go, it would it would have been, I think, like, the 16th or 17th most populous state.   And in 2016,   there was a hurricane that devastated the island's power system.  

So the basically, the entire island's inhabitants were without electricity for several months,   And thousands of people, as a consequence,   perished,   you know, not just because of the sort of ferocity of the hurricane, but actually because they didn't have access to electricity,   which was necessary for water filtration, for medical services, for medicine.   And so at that point, I think I really   that was gonna kinda struck me that electricity is really the lifeblood   of humanity. It's, you know, the most core   you know, energy access is what unlocks all these other really important systems like water and,   transportation   and,   foods you know, food security and safety. Right?  

It's kind of the the the base level   infrastructure that you need to have a sustainable society.   Right.   So when that happened, I went to go work for the Department of Energy.   At the time, it was during the Rick Perry administration or I should say the Trump administration under secretary Rick Perry.   You know, they were doing some work,   sort of in the grid recovery of Puerto Rico,   but I I really wanted to sort of focus a lot more on Puerto Rico and not some of the other, you know, verticals within the DOE.   So I went to work for the, Clinton Foundation under president Clinton.  

I joined the island's energy program, which is specifically focused on   not only rebuilding the Puerto Rican grid and deploying renewable energy, but also   addressing energy poverty in   other small island developing states,   which are very often sort of the most energy poor regions in the world. And this is because often you don't have your own domestic energy resources. You're kind of cut off. You have to import a lot of, sort of fuel,   which ends up costing a lot of money.   So just as an example, Puerto Rico at the time, you know, they were paying about 3 times the average American,   what the average American would pay for electricity.  

Wow. And their in their incomes were roughly half. So, you know, do the math, they were paying an insane amount of you know, for electricity.   The grid was unreliable.   And this was largely due in part because,   most of their power came from imported fossil fuels. They'd have to bring in at the time, this was mostly diesel. Now it's, you know, nat gas.   A lot of nat gas has taken over that.   But that just was incredibly expensive. Imagine, like,   you know, there's supply chain disruption. Suddenly, you're without electricity.   Yeah.  

And this was despite the fact that Puerto Rico is very sunny. It's very windy. There's a lot of renewable energy potential.   And at the time, Puerto Rico had   not one of the lowest, but the lowest renewable penetration of any US state or territory.   Mhmm. Which doesn't make sense if you think about it. Like, why would there be more renewable energy in   Vermont,   you know, where it's not terribly sunny   Right. Right. Or wet compared to Puerto Rico?   And one of the big challenges then was   and this is before I kind of understood Bitcoin Bitcoin mining,   was you didn't have a reliable offtaker of electricity.  

Right? You didn't have a a   a flexible source of demand   that could complement a renewable   energy source that would then make it economically viable to provide that power to,   communities in Puerto Rico and other small island developing states.   So, you know, I continued in the kind of energy   climate space, jumped around. I did some graduate,   I went to graduate school in China as a Schwarzman scholar,   did a lot more research on the international clean energy transition. That's when I started to learn about Bitcoin, blockchain.   Yeah. And then I was brought on to SVP. It's been a wild ride ever since. And,   yeah, it's a really exciting space and having a lot of positive impact.  



[00:08:28] Unknown:

And I love hearing this blending of, you know, your past passion and then, obviously, how are we gonna integrate Bitcoin into the future? Because you're right. People don't   we don't connect the dots and we think, oh, energy is bad. It's using too much. It's like   the more energy we have on planet Earth, the better for the human experience.   You know? And   so, obviously, doctors don't wanna operate by candlelight.   That's not the best way to do, you know, practice   surgery. It's not the best way to store your medicine. It's, you know, it's not the best way to store food. So,   obviously, when, you know, the better quality energy and consistent energy that people have all over the world, the the more likelihood they're gonna have opportunities to stay healthy   and, you know, have an opportunity to transact,   you know, across borders. If you're in the middle of nowhere and you have no Internet and no electricity, how are you gonna ever, you know, participate in a global economy? You're not. You're gonna be in this micro world. And so can you talk a little bit about you know, you were saying about who can take up the excess energy.  

And I think a lot of people don't understand how   power grids work, and I'm one of them. I know this much because I'm a Bitcoiner, but I'm not like you who studies this. So can you help people understand why it's important that, you know, you don't get to just turn the grid off because it's hot out and people don't need, you know, something? So, yeah, that would be great if people could get an idea of what that means.  

[00:09:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Of course. And, you know, you know, the grid   is often   referred to as the most complicated machine that humanity has ever created. And in a way, how does it you have this network of   wires and,   you know, generation assets and, like, batteries, and it's really this really complicated system.   Maintaining the grid is immensely important. Right? Like, we need it to sort of have electricity.   But actually creating a grid, running it, making sure it's resilient,   it's reliable,   There's all these sort of behind the scenes things going on. Right? When you flip on your light switch, you might not think about it, but,   you know, all this this whole value chain of of activities has to happen to make sure that when you flip that switch,   electrons are are running through.  

And as you mentioned, right, you can't just,   you know, if you're producing too much electricity or too little electricity, it's not like the grid just just function.   You essentially have to match at all times,   supply and demand on the grid.   So,   you know, with with some sources of energy, they're what's called baseload, which means that you can sort of ramp them up and down. You can control how much is being generated.   And those are the sources that we've used historically. Right? So that's   fossil resources like gas and coal,   and renewable sources like hydro, to a certain extent, and nuclear,   which have their own sort of,   variability   issues, meaning you can't really ramp them up and down, but they're reliable in the sense that they have consistent, flow for the most part.  

But as we want to create more and more renewable energy, which is important because, you know,   having access to electricity is critical, but at the same time, we also, you know, wanna reduce emissions. We wanna make sure that,   we prevent global warming and,   basically just create more abundant and renewable sources of electricity.   We we also recognize that this creates some grid challenges.   So with solar, wind,   certain other sort of variable sources of renewable energy,   what ends up happening is we can't control exactly when they're generated. Right? We can't control the supply.   And   we also have kind of variable demand throughout the day. Right? You know,   at night,   you might be using less electricity.  

You might be using more electricity in the evening when you get home. You might be using sort of less at home in the middle of the day.   But you you essentially can't control you can't match up that easily match up that supply and demand.   Mhmm. You end up with what's called stranded energy, which basically means that   the generation of energy is trapped in either space or time. Space meaning it's produced in the wrong place, so you have abundant,   Texas is a great example of this, you have a ton of,   wind and solar energy in West Texas. Texas is now the largest producer of   renewable energy in the United States.  

And then you also have electricity you have also an energy that's trapped in time, meaning it's produced not when you want it,   but perhaps at another time. So solar,   you know, is pretty consistent. Right? It you you produce solar   at at the peak in the middle of the day, and then in the morning evening, you kind of produce less, obviously, because the sun's not shining.   So how can you how can you address that stranded energy issue?   There are plenty of existing solutions like batteries.   You know, you can kind of,   send power to certain places, you know, if it's stranded.  

But there's all sorts of inefficiencies   that don't make that optimal.   What's incredible about Bitcoin,   or Bitcoin mining   is it's the first ever load   that has a couple of really important characteristics for the energy transition.   It's,   completely flexible,   meaning I can make, you know, a Bitcoin mining facility that has a gigawatt of has to be, you know, ramped all the way up to a gigawatt, all the way down to 0. I can do this in seconds. It's basically like it it's the most flexible load you'll ever find. It's interruptible,   meaning I can turn off a Bitcoin mining facility,   whereas,   say, a factory or some other load, I can't just turn it off. Right? Something bad happens.  

For the most part, if I turn off a Bitcoin mining facility, all that's happening is I'm just not mining Bitcoin. Right? Somebody else in the world, whether they're mining at home or in another facility,   is gonna sort of my mine those blocks.   It's also location agnostic, which is really important because, you know, you can basically go anywhere in the world. As long as you have internet connection   and access to power,   you can mine Bitcoin from anywhere. I know somebody who's mining Bitcoin at the bottom of the ocean. I know somebody's trying to mine Bitcoin from space,   literally anywhere in the world. Right?  

And then another and a 4th component, which is also really important, especially as we think about energy poverty and how Bitcoin mining as a load might compete with other loads,   is that it's very, price sensitive.   So Bitcoin mining   is   not gonna be able to pay for the same amount of, like, for the same price of electricity   as other,   buyers of power, whether it be AI or homes or,   you know,   just buy other buyers on the grid. And this is really important to mention when we get into sort of a common criticism of Bitcoin that even if Bitcoin uses renewable energy, people say, oh, that renewable energy would have been bought by somebody else. That may be true in some cases, but for the most part,   at least today, which   or I should say, for the most part, at least as we see moving forward, Bitcoin miners are gonna increasingly use less and less competitive power.  

So that's kind of the supply and demand, challenge in the grid.  

[00:15:44] Unknown:

I think it's important. Again, people   I know they think it's like, oh, if it's being used here, then it's completely taken away from somewhere else and then this is bad. And so are you familiar you're probably   what they're doing with gridless   over in Africa. Like, that's amazing. Right? And so an example for those of you guys who don't know,   you know, they're going into very remote locations that have natural resources that can get converted into power.   And it's too far away from any metro city where you're going to say, Cool. We're going to hook this up and then go   get all these power lines and supply some   power to the city. So it's not fundable. These types of projects are completely not fundable   in the old traditional sense. And so if Bitcoiners can come in like Gridless is doing and say, hey, we're gonna put these Bitcoin miners in. We're gonna have power generation. You guys get the power. We get some power too. It's a huge, huge win win. And so   the location agnostic component of this is super important for people to get. I mean, we've got obviously Elon and the satellites and we can do Internet anywhere.  

And so this is something that I think I would love for people to start to really get like, Wow,   how are there all these natural resources all over the world, whether it's hydro, whether it's volcanic, you know, geothermal?   How can we help, you know, get power to these remote villages so that people can start getting out of that energy poverty? And so can you do you have any other examples, like, that you can share of what you guys are aware of and working on?  

[00:17:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there's countless examples. And actually, that's, you know, that that kind of gridless model where you use Bitcoin mining as an anchor tenant,   right, to electrify communities, that was kind of the first   idea that I had when I first learned about Bitcoin mining. Right? When I when I I was at a conference, and somebody had showed me on their phone   how they moved the load of their their mining machines.   It went from, like, a 40 megawatt facility to 0 and then back up again in, like, seconds.   And immediately, you know, it clicked. I was like, this could bring   the 100 of millions or almost a 1000000000 people around the world who don't have access to reliable electricity.  

This could help   bring those people sort   of into into the energy abundant and give them access to electricity.   And not just any electricity, but but clean and reliable electricity. Right? Exactly.   And,   you know, when I was working on Puerto Rico and some of the small island developing states, it struck me that   the places in the world that have the highest rates of energy poverty, meaning they have the lowest,   access to   to electricity,   are these communities that you just described. Right? They tend to be global south.   They tend to be outside the city, sort of, you know, not grid connected, last mile communities that are that are typically rural.  

A majority of these are found in sub Saharan Africa, but also in South America, South and Southeast Asia.   And even, you know, e even in, you know, North America, even in, Europe and Asia, like,   energy poverty is pervasive everywhere, but I would say in the global south, it's it's sort of the most, prevalent.   And, yeah, essentially, forgetting everything you know about Bitcoin as, you know, permissionless monetary network that does all these all really important, things,   just from a pure power perspective,   it essentially functions as a value battery. Right? It are it arbitrates the power of electricity   I'm sorry, the value of electricity produced at any point in space and time.  

So what gridless is doing, as you as you mentioned,   is they're basically going out to these rural communities   and essentially being a buyer. Right? That buyer of first and last resort so they could be the anchor tenant. They can then help build out the transmission distribution for some kind of, you know, baseload renewable asset, whether it be run a river hydro or   solar or wind or geothermal,   biogas, whatever,   and then connect to that community and give them access to electricity.   I would say at present,   you know, right now we work with about 20% of global Hashrate.  

A significant majority of that is large industrial,   institutional, and publicly traded Bitcoin miners.   So, you know, you have, like, the the CleanSpark and Bitgears and sort of the Crusos.   You know, they obviously have a significant portion of global hash rate. This model that we're talking about with the small scale miners to help connect these communities,   We do have a few mining partners,   that do this.   One of our mining partners, they they're actually operating out of Virunga National Park, which is the oldest,   you know, national park in the African continent.  

Mhmm. They take Run of River hydro,   which otherwise would be stranded. And essentially, they can help monetize that and connect communities to the grid and also actually fund, conservation activities in the park. So there's all sorts of really cool like,   Bitcoin mining is effectively a commodities business,   the same way that gold or silver. Right? You're, like, mining this precious metal. Except for with Bitcoin, you're taking this other,   resource, which is just electricity or generation of electricity,   and   you're monetizing it into this exportable,   you know,   asset.  

So this also has massive implications for sustainable development. Because now instead of all these countries coming in and exploiting local resources, bringing them back to build out, whether it's computers or energy infrastructure, what have you.   If you could build all of this domestically in South America and Sub Saharan Africa,   you now have this massively valuable,   export   export, commodity class,   that can then help fund other forms of sustainable development, whether it be health care or transportation   or   or anything.  



[00:21:35] Unknown:

And and you were talking, you know, before we had go live,   that you were speaking with Maya Parbo Parbo from, Suriname, the presidential candidate, and you were saying maybe you guys could have some type of   a a way to help them get   a little bit more Bitcoin friendly in the country. Can you is it okay to talk about that a little bit? So it's  

[00:21:56] Unknown:

super early. I mean, I I don't know if it's,   like, private or public,   just, I think, too early to give any real painting substantive.   But I am talking to communities across, South America, Latin America,   Sub Saharan Africa, and basically saying, hey.   Here are all these, you know, stranded renewable assets. Here are these communities that don't have access to electricity.   Bitcoin miners could easily come in. They can deploy infrastructure assets to monetize their electricity and then build out build out,   sort of more energy access across across these communities.  

We're already starting to see that in East Africa where miners are coming in. This is, for the most part, happening at the large scale.   You know, you probably saw Marathon's really exciting announcements,   in Kenya.   There was another miner that I know is about to have a really exciting announcement in East Africa,   sort of another really exciting,   sort of renewable energy Bitcoin mining,   partnership.   And just to kind of give a sense of scale, you know, what we're talking about here. When I say the stranded energy stranded renewable energy   in these emerging markets,   And I recently, presented on this at a, Bitname conference.  

But there's something like 3   times   there's there's more more 3 times more stranded renewable energy in Ethiopia and Kenya, just those two countries. Stranded renewable energy. I'm not talking about total energy.   I'm talking about renewable energy that is untapped, right, that, like, is stranded   than the entire global Bitcoin network   consumes on an annual basis.   So in theory, you could bring   the entire Bitcoin mining network to everybody in, you know, America, in Asia, in Europe, in South America,   bring them all over to Ethiopia and Kenya, in theory,   tap into all that stranded renewable power, and you'd still have enough to grow the network about 3 you know, times 3. So And what's the price per kilowatt hour over there? Like, what is that just would it be,  

[00:24:04] Unknown:

like, you're just stopping it up and getting the excess, or are you paying the stranded fees? Like, how does that work?  

[00:24:10] Unknown:

So and this is actually part of the innovation for for gridless is that they're taking there's taking something that truly has a negative price. Right? Like, they're they're not taking up the power that would otherwise go to the community.   Mhmm. They're really in partnership with these local operators and IPPs to then develop these assets.   With some country and this maybe speaks to some of the challenges of this model, right? Like, Bitcoin miners coming into the global south   to sop up all the power. There's a couple of potential challenges and things we should avoid here.   I'd say the first one is just this kind of colonization 2.0   situation we could find ourselves in.  

Mhmm. You know, we don't want Bitcoin miners coming in   gobbling up all of the power and then   sort of not doing this in concert with local communities. Right? At the end of the day, like,   electricity will always be more valuable to somebody who doesn't have it than to somebody who's running a Bitcoin mining mission,   full stop. As as much as I love Bitcoin, I would rather have somebody who I'd rather have that doctor have access to electricity than,   you know, somebody mining in Texas and,   you know,   sort of mining Bitcoin there.   The other challenge is policy. So there's, like, geopolitics   and there's policy.  

You know, a lot of these emerging markets   have   very challenging, like, rate designs. They have very challenging power power markets. They're not fully developed.   Like, in tech Texas has one of the most sophisticated power markets in the world. Right? This whole, like, demand response market, you can, you know, sort of very easily be a large flexible load.   Some countries, like, I believe and you can check follow-up follow-up, on this.   But in Kenya, I believe, they have a price floor.   So they might have, like, 8 gigawatts   of geothermal energy that's stranded,   but they're I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to sell it   below, like, 8¢ kilowatt hour, which for a Bitcoin miner today is just   not economical. Right? Yeah.  

But again, there there is some happy medium in there where maybe you can lower the price   because right now you're getting 0. Right? Or perhaps even negative. Right? You're paying you're paying for that energy even though nobody's buying it. It's kinda like what happened in in Paraguay where you had,   the Taipu dam, right, selling all of this power to Brazil,   basically at cost or just running the power at a loss.   And you have all these Bitcoin miners that are now coming in, and they're bringing gigawatts   of,   you know, very consistent demand.  

It's good to the Paraguayan government, to the Itaypu operator, and then they can then use this money to invest in infrastructure and transmission   or anything else they want to. Right? It could go into health care or,   I don't know,   whatever the people of Paraguay or Kenya or any of these countries, whatever they want, they can then use this money to invest locally.  

[00:27:08] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that's super important. So, yeah, SaaS Mining is down there   doing, something. Do you know Kent?  

[00:27:14] Unknown:

Yeah. He's awesome. Yeah. I do. No. Kent, there's there's a lot of really cool miners. You know, Penguin Group is is a very large Bitcoin miner that,   you know, they're not only working with, you know, Andre, which is the national grid operator,   but   they're also investing in, like, local initiatives. So they have a big, I think they're called Penguin Academy.   Nice. They're they're they're developing   local digitally native workforces.   So they're investing in, like, training. Yeah. And not just for Bitcoin mining too, for all sorts of, like, AI and, you know, digital technologies that you know, they're they're investing in people. Right? At the end of the day, like,   Bitcoin is great. It's It's a great network. It's an important technology. But if if it doesn't serve people,  

[00:27:59] Unknown:

then what's the point? You know? I love it. I'd love to hear that because I feel like there's so many   amazing, you know,   educational programs out there whether it's me, Premier Bitcoin or BTC Data.   And it's like what do people do after they get excited in any community? It doesn't matter where you are. Yay. I want to support Bitcoin. And it's like, well, some of us aren't cryptographers.   We may not be miners. Some of us aren't, you know, hedge fund managers and investors and whatnot. So   how can we still keep   the the system moving forward so people get trained for the next level of how are we gonna earn a living and how is AI gonna integrate into our workforce   so that, you know, some people I've heard someone say like, Oh, I don't want AI taking my job. I'm like, AI is not gonna take your job. The guy who knows how to use AI is gonna take your job. And so until we train ourselves and each other,   on all of this new technology,   it's gonna get light years you know, the gap between the people who understand and don't understand is gonna keep getting, you know, huger and huger and huger.  

So I love love to hear that people are getting trained in, you know, some workforce type activities. This is great. So I'm gonna check these guys out. So fun, fun, fun. Yeah.  

[00:29:09] Unknown:

Definitely check them out. But but just to kind of piggyback off that last point, you know, I think   and this would be my message to our to our industry, right, the kind of Bitcoin   space,   is   Bitcoin is inherently a permissionless technology   up to a point.   So,   yeah, it's permissionless in the sense that, like, it doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care your race, creed, color, sexual orientation.   It doesn't care where you are.   Right? Like, Bitcoin speaks a certain language.   But at the same time and and there's a lot of really great people that advocate for Bitcoin being, you know, permissionless monetary technology that anybody in the world can access.   But if you really think about it, there are billions of people on planet Earth today. Let's say tomorrow we move to a Bitcoin standard,   right, where every single government, every single person adopted, you know, Bitcoin as the standard,   store of value means of payment.  

There are about 2,600,000,000   people on planet Earth today who don't have reliable access to the Internet.   Wow.   Yeah. So what what what do we do about those people? Right? I mean, there are a couple of really cool innovations. I know, Manchkura   is   a really incredible company out of,   I wanna say Nigeria,   that is creating Bitcoin essentially Bitcoin payment rails, but, like, you can do it via text.   But even then, you need access to an electronic device. Right? Like,   if we really want Bitcoin mass adoption, we have to be thinking about all these various,   sort of caveats when we think about, permissionlessness   and inclusivity.  

So   I I would encourage sort of all these very pro Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin enthusiasts, Bitcoiners,   to also think about how do we invest in that kind of infrastructure. Right? If you care about Bitcoin adoption   Yeah. Then you should also care about Internet access. Right? You should care about energy access.   Right? If you have a smartphone that you can use to buy and sell Bitcoin,   but you can only charge your phone every week?   You know, are are you are you playing in the same game as everybody else?  

[00:31:16] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. That's such a huge point. I remember going to El Salvador for the first time a couple of years ago, and it was, you know, for adopting Bitcoin. And, of course, everyone's like, woo hoo. Bitcoin. Bitcoin.   And,   you know, we're all ready to go be evangelists.   And one of the women,   she was just like, you've really gotta understand   the who you're dealing with down here. A lot of these people don't have access to the Internet. They don't have basic needs met. And so you coming here and hyping up all Bitcoin is like it's an insult and a slap to their in their face because you're not even understanding   what their needs are from a base level that aren't even getting addressed. And so to sit and get all hype y about this wonderful new currency, technology, freedom, blah, blah, blah, you're missing the point. So I think, like you said, we don't wanna go in and like have the colonization   mindset of, okay, we're gonna go extract resources, but you also have to have so much empathy   and understanding   of where you are, and each case is gonna be completely different, you know, with each location. And so I yeah. You're right. I mean, it really is something for all of us to get a little bit more,   I think, involved in because we I think it's so easy to see the shiny, la la la, and it's great. Like, no. Like, let's put some of our talent, time, and treasure   into these basic,   systems that need to be in place before we can have Bitcoin adoption. So   who do you see? Do you see any,   I don't know, sustainable Bitcoin protocols doing this? Or are there any organizations out there that you could suggest   for myself and the listeners to say, hey. If you wanna start helping with the Internet in these remote places or energy, like, is there where can we go to learn about that?  



[00:32:59] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, in a sense, we do help with this,   in that that we help create a financial incentive to use Clean Energy for Bitcoin miners.   And Mhmm. You know, we are seeing a lot more adoption of SVP   in the global south. You know, we have mining partners in Africa and South America.   You know, we have a lot of mining partners in the US and some in Europe,   some in, you know, Bhutan and sort of, you know, East East Asia, Southeast Asia.   Yeah. Unfortunately, there aren't, like, I would say too many   companies   that are focusing on the intersection of these of these different issues.  

I would like to point out a few. And I and again, I love the work we're doing at SVP, and we're   we're truly driving transparency and decarbonization of the Bitcoin network. We're also, you know, very importantly driving institutional adoption. So we're basically bringing the next $10,000,000,000,000   of climate aligned capital into Bitcoin is our goal.  

[00:33:57] Unknown:

10,000,000,000,000?   Did you say trillion   with the t? I mean Woah. The t. I mean, the  

[00:34:04] Unknown:

the amount of capital that's that's earmarked for climate finance, sustainable finance,   I always forget if it's 30,000,000,000,000   or 50,000,000,000,000,   But it's a lot. It's obviously higher than the entire market cap of Bitcoin.   So essentially what we've done is we've created a way from these institutional investors, whether they be,   you know, asset allocators,   whether they be, you   know, pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, ETFs.   Essentially, we've created a way for them to buy and hold Bitcoin in an audibly sustainable way that's also investing in the sustainability of the network. Right?   Essentially, we've created a a market for proof of sustainable Bitcoin mining,   and then that can be added to the the holdings of of a of an investor.  

And for a lot of investors  

[00:34:53] Unknown:

understand   can you help help us understand? Walk us through, like, what's like, if I'm a   new person or company, entity, fund that is interested in what you're doing, like, how would I go about getting involved with what Sustainable Bitcoin Protocol does?  

[00:35:09] Unknown:

Sure. So our our company, what we've done is we've created an asset specific environmental commodity.   So we've created a a digital asset   that is specifically geared towards Bitcoin called the Sustainable Bitcoin Certificate.   It is issued to Bitcoin miners that have proven that they've mined Bitcoin with clean energy.   So whether that be solar or wind or nuclear or hydro or waste mapping gas, as you can see from this graphic here.   Mhmm. Bitcoin   basically proved that, you know, we believe in proof of work. We believe in transparency.   You know, just like Bitcoin,   you know, we we don't just take people at their word. We want we wanna see the proof of work. So once a Bitcoin miner has done this, we can basically   voluntarily bought from a bottom up perspective, collect that data. We verify   it. And then for every Bitcoin or Sat that a miner   sort of, unlocks from the Bitcoin protocol,   we then issue an additional asset. So not touching the Bitcoin network. Right? Bitcoin is Bitcoin.  

All Bitcoin are fully fungible. There's no such thing as a red Bitcoin or green Bitcoin or a non green Bitcoin. Like, Bitcoin is Bitcoin.   But now they have 2 assets on their balance sheet. Right? They have their Bitcoin that they can do whatever they want with, and they have this additional asset, which is almost like a clean energy derivative of Bitcoin mining. Right? It's like   a a a proof it's it's a it's the data that proves a Bitcoin was mined sustainably.   They can then sell this to, you know, BlackRock or Fidelity or   any publicly traded Bitcoin investor that   wants to, you know, know the sort of climate risk or price and the climate risk of their investments. They want proof that their holdings are climate positive.  

But also in a way that actually incentivizes   further decarbonization of the network. Right? We're not here to say that anyone   you can't use any one source of energy. Right? Like, any miner, even any source of energy,   is contributing to the security of the Bitcoin network, which is most important.   But investors have a preference   for   sustainable investments. This is a way to do that from a market based perspective,   doesn't violate the fungibility of Bitcoin, and then brings in the next tens of trillions of capital into Bitcoin. Right? That would otherwise go somewhere else,   which I hope Okay. And so  

[00:37:26] Unknown:

so just to clarify, so basically,   you're getting a certificate kinda is this similar to, like   like, carbon trading markets,   or am I way off on that? Like, because you've got, obviously, this certificate that says, cool.   We've got Bitcoin that was mined with, you know, all of this great clean   energy. Here's your certificate for x amount of units   of, you know, the Bitcoin that you guys had. And so and then you put that on your balance sheet separately,   and then   you would trade that with another company so that they could also have that on their balance sheet? Have you seen, like, what's the   what's the demand for other companies to go, hey.  

I want this. I'm gonna have I need some Bitcoin on my balance sheet. Now I also need to have this offset with the the clean you know, the SBC certificate or,   SBP yeah. SBC.   So,   yeah, how how does that work?  

[00:38:20] Unknown:

Yeah. So I guess to to the first question, it's not exactly a carbon credit.   We actually don't do we don't deal at all with carbon markets. And Okay. The reason for that is is because and this is actually why Bitcoin also is an energy based asset. Right? The reason why Bitcoin uses energy is because it needs a way to tie   the physical to the digital world. Right?   That's why proof of work is so   so innovative. That's why it's so important.   It's you need some kind of proof of work, which is the sort of the computation and the hashing,   to show that you've you've done the effort and therefore deserve to receive Bitcoin.  

Every single megawatt hour of clean electricity   that is produced everywhere in the world   is metered. Meaning, I know,   you know, how much electricity is produced. I can't fake   the consumption of electricity.   Right. So we actually we actually deal in the renewable energy markets. Right? Everywhere in the world, every single time a megawatt hour of electricity of clean electricity is produced,   a contractual instrument called an EAC or energy attribute certificate is produced. Okay. And in order to be able to say that you're using clean energy, you basically have to own that instrument. Right? You have to own the rights to that megawatt hour or kilowatt hour of clean electricity,   and you do that through this global market of instruments.  

So when we verify the usage of clean energy, a miner will have to, you know, show their energy consumption data,   and all the data is anonymized, aggregated.   You know, that way, it's it's all secure so miners don't aren't,   you know, don't have to worry about sort of information security.   So we verify the energy consumption.   We verify pooled data so we know actually how much Bitcoin a particular miner is is is mining.   And then we need some kind of proof   through these EAC markets that the energy that they used was sustainable.   So as an example,   you know, one of our Bitcoin mining partners is a company called Crusoe. They predominantly use,   waste, methane, gas to mine Bitcoin, but they also have some operations   in Texas.  

When you're mining on the grid in Texas, even though there might be a lot of renewables,   you actually don't have a claim   to those renewable   to that renewable energy unless you've paid   for the rights to clean energy. Right? This is true everywhere in the world, from Google, Amazon, Meta, every company in the world that wants to claim they're using clean energy,   you actually have to pay for clean energy. It's not enough just to say, like, hey. Here are the solar panel the wind farms, and here's the solar panel.   So we verify that they have the rights to clean energy. And then for every Satoshi or Bitcoin that they mine, they essentially receive this certificate,   and it's a way for them to monetize their use of clean energy.  

Because, and this will answer your second question,   there's a whole,   generation of investors,   predominantly institutional investors and asset managers,   that have their own ESG mandates, or maybe they have, SEC   requirements,   right, have to have climate disclosures, or even in Europe. And not enough companies are realizing this, but in Europe, you actually,   starting next year, will have to disclose your the emissions of your of your investments.  

[00:41:37] Unknown:

And so essentially All of your investments?   Like, every investment that you have?  

[00:41:42] Unknown:

For a public company. Okay. Got it. Public for public companies. And this is also true for digital assets. So if you have Bitcoin, and   it's impossible to say, like, if a Bitcoin that was mined today versus a Bitcoin that was mined 10 years ago, it's impossible to kind of   say which Bitcoin had which,   you know, amount of emissions. Right? Because all Bitcoin is fungible. Right? It would be like saying that   the dollar in my pocket is worth more than the dollar in your pocket. It just it just doesn't work. You need Bitcoin needs to be Bitcoin. Every single Bitcoin has to be fully fungible, whether it was produced with coal or with, you know, solar,   whether Bitcoin was used. You know, my first first time I ever really,   sort of encountered Bitcoin, I was doing,   you know, national security work, and people were using Bitcoin   to you know, for illicit purposes.  

So that those Bitcoins that were used for that illicit activity   should be worth the same as any other Bitcoin. Right? Money should be fully fungible. It shouldn't be discriminatory.   And so,   you know, this what this does is it creates a way for an investor to basically add this proof of sustainability, this proof of sustainable Bitcoin mining   to their holdings without actually tagging or changing any   particular Bitcoin as green or non green. Mhmm. And in addition to that, because   because it's a commodity, because the way to produce the SBC,   the only way there's no, like, tokenomics. There's no pre mine. Like, the only way to produce this asset   is by proving that you've mined Bitcoin with sustainable energy.  

Because of that,   it's gonna necessarily grow in value over time as well. Right? Because the the cost to produce the SBC   is basically gonna correlate to how much energy it takes to mine a single Bitcoin,   which, you know, over time   trends upwards. So it's a way to invest in sustainable Bitcoin mining and Bitcoin at the same time.   And it creates this kinda, like, virtuous cycle   where our goal is that Bitcoin then becomes the most powerful climate positive asset that has ever existed. So it'll actually be,   responsible   for order   thousands of orders of magnitudes,   orders of magnitude, so, like, something like 10,000 times   more clean energy investment   than the entire network could have ever consumed.  

So as we scale, Bitcoin becomes more and more and more climate positive, and then it becomes impossible to, you know, oppose it or, you know, brand it as, like, a dirty   a dirty asset or something.  

[00:44:11] Unknown:

And so to clarify, you guys are issuing these certificates. And so   can normal people like me get them if I say, I want this? And then how much do they cost? And how do you determine the price? How does the market determine the price? And then, obviously, if you're the issuer of the certificates, it's not tokenomics   like you said.   Where does that money go, that initial money that you're giving, you know, that, you   know, certificate from?  

[00:44:38] Unknown:

Yeah. So,   I guess the first I'll try to go backwards.   There's no cost if you're a Bitcoin miner and you're using clean energy, there's zero cost to participate in the protocol. Right? All we can the only thing that you will need in order to receive SDC   is that data. You need the proof. Right?   Okay. So just coming to us and saying or or entering because submitting your data to the protocol and saying, oh, yeah. We just we use green energy, it's not enough. Yeah. You actually need that proof. What's great about Bitcoin as an asset class, and this is the only asset class in existence that can do it, is that it's just energy and code. So if we can determine that the energy used   to mine the Bitcoin was green, effectively, it's it's a   green mine Bitcoin. Right?  

So that's that's one piece. Right? For miners, it doesn't cost any money. Our goal is once there's depth in liquidity, it'll effectively trade somewhere between 4 to 7% price of Bitcoin.   Okay. And this speaks to your other so we want miners to get an additional 4 to 7% revenue   on top of their Bitcoin mining, assuming they're using a 100% green energy.   And it costs more to use green energy. Right? You have to, like, pay it for the rights to to the green energy. This is a way for you to monetize and pass on that cost to these ESG investors   or   even make a profit. Right? Because let's say you're paying an extra   dollar per megawatt   hour for, you know, the green energy, and you're selling this at $3 a megawatt hour, which is roughly what we expected to to trade at, that's kind of our index, it's our benchmark,   then they'll be making 2 additional dollars per megawatt hour just to   sort of, like, offer a few numbers.  

Today, let's say it takes about a 1,000 megawatt hours to minus single Bitcoin.   And if we say the prevailing price of a high quality EAC, one of those instruments,   is $3, which is the benchmark we take working with, you know, Cambridge and sort of other experts.   So it's effectively going to sell at $3,000.   So today, a Bitcoin miner produces an SBC.   They the theoretical price of that is $3,000.   Okay.   Which is roughly, you know, for somewhere in, like, the 4 to 7% range.   However,   this is a totally market based asset. We don't dictate the price to anybody. So if you sell it for more than that or less than that, like,   all we're doing is we're taking this data that already exists, but there's no there's no,   there's no, like, database for it. Right? The the data exists. Like, if a Bitcoin miner is   using provably using clean energy, there's no,   there's no   layer for the Bitcoin network that actually shows that, which is why the estimate for how much sustainable energy Bitcoin is using vary so much. Like, I've seen some estimates that go as high as 60%, which,   you   know, are actually not quite true.  

And all this this all there's also, like, an accounting piece to this, which is interesting. But,   and there's there's some estimates that say it's as low as 10%. Like, the reason   why these estimates vary so much is because there is no standard protocol that kind of that evaluates all this data and collects it.   So the price is gonna be totally market driven. Right?   We expect   that it'll   function as, like, this clean energy derivative of the of Bitcoin mining. So,   again, it'll sort of it'll trail this, like, 4 to 7% price of Bitcoin.   Because as the price of Bitcoin goes up, you know, there's difficulty adjustments, but there's also, like, you know, more miners in the network, which means that it costs more energy to mine.  

Plus you have halvings over time.   And then in terms of where to buy them, I mean, there are miners today that have s that have been verified.   They have received SBC. We even had several transactions take place where,   institutional investors, investors have bought SBC from the miners. So we have this, like, proof of concept where we know there are investors   that   want to add this proof of sustainability to their Bitcoin holdings. They have sustainability   strategies.   And certainly for for miners. Right? You know, miners are obviously interested because it's   free money. Right? If if a lot a lot of miners are gonna have to buy clean energy anyway   because they you know,   whether it's SNC mandates for disclosure or they just care about climate, they're gonna have to buy the clean energy.  

This is a way just for them to monetize it. Right? It's like, why why not do it?  

[00:49:07] Unknown:

Yeah. And then So where where's the marketplace? So how how does how does a normie like me say, I wanna go get a, you know, an SBC so I can go support this? So is there a b to b or a p to p marketplace where people can go, you know, get this so that they can say, yay. Look. I've got you know, I'm supporting this the sustainable,   production of energy for Bitcoin.  

[00:49:29] Unknown:

So I'll give you a little kinda look look under the hood here.   Thanks. Up until up until now you heard it here first. Up until now, these have largely been trading OTC. So k. One of the big one of the big challenges here with creating any commodity market is you actually have to create supply and demand at the same time.   Right? It's called the the cold start problem in economics,   where   you have   a commodity an environmental commodity that you want to be produced from this industry,   but they don't wanna produce it unless there's buyers. Buyers don't wanna buy it unless being produced, and you have this kind of chicken or egg problem. So that's what we've been working on for the last couple of years. I think we're finally at this point where we're starting to see   more adoption from investors and miners, which is really exciting.  

Up until now, most of these trades have been done   OTC.   It'll be a miner that we say, hey. Like, here's an investor. They wanna buy some SBC from you. You guys negotiate a price and, you know,   go in peace. Right?   There's a couple of really exciting upcoming   liquidity opportunities for,   the Bitcoin miners that are adopting the protocol. I can't go into details,   but there will be a couple of upcoming   sort of sale sales opportunities for the mining partners. And our whole thing is, like, we're not taking money from miners. Right? We we only generate   a profit or revenue   once we have achieved sufficient,   liquidity   and depth and supply such that we can start   issuing SBC for the historically mined Bitcoin, which I can get to. I'll redo that in a moment.  



[00:51:06] Unknown:

Oh, okay.  

[00:51:08] Unknown:

Yeah. And that that's where the whole climate positive,   sort of aspect comes in.   But yeah. So there's a couple of upcoming real excited sort of you know, there's exchange listings and a couple of, like, institutional partnerships where,   you know, sovereign wealth funds, asset allocators,   will be able to buy SBC and add it to their balance sheet, and that's gonna help help kick start,   liquidity in-depth.   And honestly, right now, most of the miners that mine SBC have been, huddling. They've been holding their their SBC.   Again,   is SBC gonna go parabolic, you know, the way that Bitcoin could? No. It's not designed to do that.  

It'll, again, track roughly that energy consumption of the network. So,   you know, if the energy consumption of the network   goes up 10%, then the price will roughly go up 10%.   It's never it's not gonna jump, you know, 10 x overnight.   That's not what it's for. It's a stable,   sort of,   stable again, I it's not a derivative, so I have to be careful when I say that, but it's like a derivative   of the network.   Okay.   And then in terms of the historically mined Bitcoin, right, which,   you know, I mentioned,   the way that we make money,   and also the way we address the historically mined,   what, 19,500,000   Bitcoin.  

Because, like, if if we were working with a our goal is to verify a 100% of the network. Right? Let's say a 100% of all Bitcoin miners, you know, all 20 gigawatts of capacity   is on the platform. It's all verified. It's all a 100% green energy.   It's and it's an amazing story. Right? And we'll have we'll be the 1st industry in the history of the world to do that.   But at the same time, for our asset class, right, we want miners to be able to monetize   this activity.   And the only way we're going to have meaningful depth and liquidity is if we can also address the historically mined,   19,500,000   Bitcoin,   most of which were produced with very little electricity.  

What we do is we we use Cambridge and other sources, and we index the average energy consumption of the network on a daily basis.   So, you know, I could look,   you know, and actually, I think it says on our website, I think that there's actually, like,   a a ticker that shows roughly what the average energy consumption is.   And you could see, like,   how much energy would actually be required   to produce an SBC.   Right? Let's say today it's a 1,000 megawatt hours.   That means in order to produce an SBC,   and this is what our protocol does, is we would have to go into the renewable energy markets   with the buy a 1,000 megawatt hours of clean energy   on behalf of those historically mined Bitcoin.  

And so, a, what that does is it help ensures, like, a stable price. Right? Let's say there's way too much demand,   and there's, like, a price spike in the SBC.   Protocol can issue new SBC by doing that.   And on top of that, because most Bitcoins historically were mined with, like, kilowatt hours and not a 1000 megawatt hours,   we're   way overcompensating   for the historical energy consumption of the network. And so buying SBC,   you're you're driving this kind of climate positivity of a network. You're you're making Bitcoin   responsible for more renewable energy purchasing   than the network   in its entirety could have ever   consumed.  

And so as it scales, it becomes more and more climate positive and then becomes the most sustainable investment you could ever make. Mills That's so exciting to hear about  

[00:54:46] Unknown:

what you can do from the past and then obviously thinking about going forward. I think a lot of people don't   again, we're not understanding why we need to have all this energy out there.   And,   I I wanna talk about so that you keep mentioning AI and I think this is something that people really   are not connecting the dots. Right? And so,   you know, whether you're using Midjourney or ChatGPT   or any of these, you know, prompting softwares and obviously, there's a million other, you know,   things out there,   the the amount of energy required at these AI server farms all over the world is insane. And so people are   all hyped up about, oh, Bitcoin is boiling the oceans and all the terrible things and what Greenpeace, you know, the the campaign that was going on with Ripple.  

Nobody is I haven't heard anybody   in the environmental space other than when I was at Summit at Sea several months ago   talking about the footprint, the environmental footprint and the carbon footprint of the AIs and all the the server farms out there. And so can you talk about if you know the difference between, like, how much energy Bitcoin is using and what it's,   compared to all the AI,   computers out there   that that we're using so easily like doo doo. What just really quick before you say that, one of the things one of the women,   you know, that I had spoken with, I'm like, it would be interesting if we because we're clueless   as consumers   of of how much energy that uses and I love to make little mid journey prompts.  

But if I had a second prompt that said, every time you push this button,   you're   emitting this much carbon or you're using this much energy, I might think twice about constantly, like, remixing it or whatever. You know? And so from a consumer point of view,   I'm completely uneducated   on how much energy this stuff uses. And I just think, la la la, it's just no big deal.  

[00:56:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, I guess, like, that actually speaks to another really interesting point about, you know, Bitcoin's energy use that it we're asking we often ask the wrong question. Right? It's not like   the first question shouldn't be how much energy does it use. It should be what are we getting out of that energy? Because Right. Every activity,   no matter what you do, has an environmental consequence. Right? Mhmm. You know, if you're provide if you're using a kerosene lamp to do surgeries   at a remote clinic in,   in Ghana,   you know, for for,   late for childbirth.  

Right?   Like,   even though kerosene lamp is not great for the environment, it's better than nothing. It's better than doing it in the dark. Right?   Yeah.   With Bitcoin, right, like, it uses it it does use a significant amount of energy. The energy amount is growing. Right? Like, I don't think we should shy away from that. I know we often play this kind of like, what about these guys? What about this industry? Right? Like, these comparisons aren't helpful.   We have to decarbonize every sector.   Right? We have to do it quickly. I'm in Miami, Florida where, you know, it's getting hotter and hotter every year. We're gonna soon have these wet bulb temperatures.   Heat is the most deadly   aspect of climate change. It kills,   you know, I think, like, tens of thousands of people   every month or something like that.  

Mhmm. That's just climate change related heat. I mean, that's that's scary stuff.   So, again,   what is the value that we're getting out of Bitcoin? Right? The reason why   whenever I'm having one of these conversations with my one of my friends that works in climate sustainability,   the first question I tend to ask is, like, what what do you know about Bitcoin's use case? Right?   What is a Bitcoin actually used for?   Right?   Because if you think Bitcoin has zero value,   right, zero value to yourself and to society Mhmm. And even a kilowatt   used to mine Bitcoin, even if the whole network was only, you know, running the same amount of electricity as a light bulb, it wouldn't be worth it to you. Right? It's all about this kind of cost benefit.  

There's actually a lot of folks in the climate space that are concerned with the energy demand of AI.   I'd say that grid operators are especially concerned, you know, just meeting with, like, EIA,   meeting with ISO, the power companies. Like,   the   usage of AI of these, you know, open, you know, open sort of, you know, GPTs,   It's so expansive now that   companies are tripping over themselves trying to build out new AI data centers,   which are similar but quite different from from Bitcoin.   You know, they have some similarities, but also some pretty important differences.   And I'm actually working on a couple of sort of research papers and articles with a couple of, you know, big climate experts,   people who are much more prominent than myself,   obviously,   about sort of Bitcoin mining versus AI, what what you kinda get out of these different modes.  

You know, what are the the differences?   There is some attempts to do research on AI and Bitcoin   energy consumption.   The biggest challenge to date has just been the data. Right? Like, you know, we're both friends of Margo. She's a brilliant researcher,   but she has she has challenges with data. Even the IEA, the International Energy Agency, which is arguably one of the most important energy   sort of related organizations in the world, you know, they have some pretty good research, but they're relying on data that's not that's not complete. Right? The EIA survey. Right? The whole the only reason why the EIA and for those of you not in the US, the only reason why the EIA,   the Energy Information Administration of the US Department of Energy,   they need to be able to advise policymakers on how to move forward. They don't care about, like, you know, what Bitcoin does, what it doesn't do. They see gigawatts   of new planned capacity in the interconnection queue in the US, and that terrifies. They wanna know how to move forward.  

Right? Which is a very reasonable question.   So there are concerns around AI,   energy use, but I think people   it's very easy to understand the value or the use case of   AI   and Bitcoin, I think, you know, unless the product is in your hands, unless you hold Bitcoin.   Maybe that's what some of these, like, you know, Bitcoin billionaires and millionaires should do is they should, you know, just stats instead of wallets for some of these skeptics. In that way, you know, kinda moves the game theory along. I don't know.  

[01:01:08] Unknown:

I love that idea. Let's get let's get Sailor and Michael Dell and all these other people who are gonna be I think   that that would be an interesting,   way to help understanding adoption. I mean, it's like the puppy in the hand thing. Right? Like, oh, look. It's my thing. I wanna take the puppy home. So now you wanna take the Bitcoin home if you're somebody   who's on the fence.  

[01:01:30] Unknown:

And it works in the opposite direction too. Right? Like, if you're   you know, I I have friends that I also talk to, and every time they see that MicroStrategy   has added another   250,000,000 of Bitcoin to their balance sheet, they're like   it it creates this psychological problem where they're like, I could never ever   keep up, so it's not worth it for me to participate.   So I think a lot of the early adopters, I I would hope again, that it's I don't it's not their fault. Right? You know, it's not you can't fault MicroStrategy for a winning strategy.   Yeah.  

But, you know, if they if they wanna encourage more adoption, that would be that would be my advice.  

[01:02:09] Unknown:

So so you just to clarify what the people say they can't keep up. Like, they think like, oh, MicroStrategy is already so far ahead. Why bother?  

[01:02:17] Unknown:

Or Bitcoin, you know, is already so expensive. Why bother? I'm not gonna get a return, or is that the the mindset? Yeah. The the so there's there is the unit bias piece where which is, you know, if you talk to somebody, they're like, oh, I can't afford a $70,000   Bitcoin. Like, that's and then you kinda have to explain it's divisible by a million. And   that's that's, I think, partly education. And or actually, that's one of the biggest areas where the ETFs have been really helpful. It's like instead of buying a whole Bitcoin, it's very easier for me to understand I have shares of an ETF.   So I can just spend 20, $100, whatever it is,   on shares. But what I'm saying is and this actually relates to I can't remember the name of of the concepts, but there's this idea in economics that it's almost like relative deprivation that you actually   quantify your own well-being in the context   of others.  

So they did,   a study.   They they asked people, I will get they said to people, You will get   a 10% raise   at work,   but   your colleague is gonna get a 20% raise.   Will you take the raise or will you not take the raise?   And an overwhelming, like 9, like 90 plus percent of people said they would not take the raise, even though they'd make more money,   which sounds crazy, but that that's, you know, you you can't change,   human psychology. Right?   So they   so that's that's what I what I'm talking about is when I when I talk to people,   especially individuals, sometimes even organizations, they're like,   why should I participate in the system when this one company holds 1%   of this digitally scarce   asset?  

Again,   you should like, a a philosopher can answer the question of whether or not this is fair or what should you then do. I'm just telling you, like, this is   what I've   heard from people.  

[01:04:08] Unknown:

Interesting. I know there's so many   obstacles and objections that, you know, depending on who we have conversations with,   you know, I don't wanna understand it. I don't wanna do self custody. It's bad for the environment, blah, blah, blah.   There's it's just there's so many interesting ways for us to keep learning about   how do we make sure that, like, are these I mean, these are obviously great great questions.   Do we have the right answers,   you know, for people that we're having conversations with? I know before we started the   the stream, we were talking about just the different ways, you know, like, I'm talking to this audience. They're gonna have this set of, you know, objections and problems that we can support. And if I'm talking to this, completely different set of vocabulary,   different set of issues. And so I think for all of us as, you know, proponents and educators, consultants, entrepreneurs   in the space,   it's super important to use these 2 suckers a lot and, you know, and use these little these 2 lives less.  

But,   it it's it's always a learning process. I never I'm it's like I wake up every day, and I'm just like, oh my gosh. I didn't know that. Okay. That's new, and I have to keep going down this avenue to learn a little bit more.   I I know we're kinda coming on time right now.   What   I I wanna ask you personally, just if you don't mind,   how has your life   transformed since you've entered the Bitcoin space coming you know, and blending these two wonderful worlds? Like, how has your worldview changed? How have your relationships   changed?  



[01:05:40] Unknown:

Yeah. And I I I'll just really quickly sort of comment on your on your previous statement, which I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah. Yeah.   You know, as somebody who yaps a lot, you know, for   work, I certainly need to beat my ears more. But,   I think   if we're trying to get adoption of this tool, of this technology, which is agnostic. Right? Like, it could be good, it could be bad, it could be. It does certain things, it doesn't do certain things. It doesn't solve every problem,   contrary to some some opinions,   but it solves some problems in a very big way. Right? Right.  

Like, my sort of operating mindset is trying to find out   what   problems the person in front of me is facing.   Yeah. Especially in the context of Bitcoin is like, does Bitcoin actually solve your problems? Right? Like, what what are the instead of just saying, hey, this is something that you should use and, you know, have at it. Right. Blah.   Because for some people, like, in the US, Bitcoin is usually is mostly used as savings. Right? Right.   If you talk to a lot of communities, like, I do a good bit of work in East and West Africa,   you know,   most of these communities don't have most of the communities I work with don't have savings. Right? Like, they they can't afford to move their lives into bits, like, the volatility,   which may be going down over time, but, like, it's life and death for them. Right? Whether or not the eggs are gonna be worth   $2 versus $3 one day or the next, like, they can't afford to take that risk. They don't have savings.  

Which is why I also get confused. Like, I'm a huge fan of Tether. I think they're an incredible company.   They're solving a lot of these, like, energy, Internet   infrastructure problems that we talked about.   And, like,   people think that USDT and and, you know, Tether Stablecoin is, like, evil. But the reason why it why it's been so successful   is because   there are, you   know, millions of people around the world who who need it. Right? And it actually,   maybe for now, serves better,   it provides more value than than Bitcoin even. Right? Like, Bitcoin does some things that other technologies can't. Other technologies,   you know, there are things that they can't do that Bitcoin can do. Right? So I think we should view it as a technology. It's not some,   sort of spirit. Right? Like, Bitcoin, as powerful as it is,   at the end of the day, it's technology. How do we use it for good, and how do we prevent any pitfalls?  

Every technology has downsides too. How do we also prevent,   those those,   challenges?   In terms of how Bitcoin has impacted my life, I mean, certainly, as somebody who's worked in the climate space for a long time, like, I definitely have a lot of,   sort of incredulous,   you know, looks. And people often ask me, like, Elliot, why are you like, I have you decided to kinda move to the other side? So, like, Yeah.   I don't know, but I don't think anybody's,   you know, cut me out of their lives because because I work in Bitcoin.   And honestly, I I almost don't really see myself as working in Bitcoin. Like, I really I work in climate, and what I'm doing is I'm helping Bitcoin become climate tech. Right? I'm helping the world see it as climate tech, and I'm actually helping to unlock Bitcoin's ability to drive the energy transition and,   you know, support a sustainable sustainable world.  

Yeah. But I I do get a lot of, like, weird questions from family, you know, as as most folks slash space do. Like, you know, my,   my grandmother   sent to me recently, and she was like, I was telling somebody about this Bitcoin thing that you invented,   you know, and how it's going so well.   And I'd explain   that   maybe I am Satoshi Nakamoto,   you know, I'm not. But, you know, that would be a pretty wild thing to announce on a on a podcast.   But,   yeah, I don't know. It's it's definitely impacted my life, certainly in the work that I wanna do, like,   you know, this this energy, Internet,   money,   these systems that truly run the world, I think Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining could be an incredibly   critical,   piece of that puzzle in unlocking   that future where energy access, Internet access,   financial access is available to everybody.  



[01:10:01] Unknown:

And and I agree. When you know, we had talked a while back about greenfin that just happened in New York recently.   Like, where do you see and, obviously, we were trying to get on stages and talk about Bitcoin and everything there, and they were like, no.   Why is there such a pushback with the the green finance community? Like, why how do we get ourselves at the table so that we can all ask questions and learn about what's going on and really,   really go a lot deeper? Obviously, this is your area of genius.  

[01:10:33] Unknown:

Well, I don't know about that. But I mean I mean, let's be kidding.   We we really do operate behind the scenes. I mean, the   conversations we've had and the the the fact that we've moved the needle so far with   all number of, you know, financial institutions that otherwise wouldn't care or be interested in Bitcoin.   You know, we we tend to kind of care a lot more about getting things done than sort of talking about it on on Twitter or sort of on on social media.   Mhmm. And I think that's the best way to get these different groups on board. Right? Like, adoption is gonna come that way and not through shaming  

[01:11:07] Unknown:

or through Yeah. No shaming. Yeah. Yeah. It's not about shaming. It's like, how do we go have dinner at the table? Yeah. Like, how do we go and really have deep conversations? You know?   Because it's super important. I mean  

[01:11:21] Unknown:

No. How do we care about what they care about? Right? Or how do we understand what they care about? You know?   And,   actually, we we just got invited.   SVP just got invited to apply   to Verge 24.   So Verge, which is also run by, Greenbiz, is the largest climate tech event in the world.   They want us to apply as one of their, like,   climate startups to follow.   So we'll probably send them an application.   Hopefully, the Bitcoin community can get behind us so that we can really like, our goal is to show that Bitcoin is climate tech.   Yeah. So, you know, if we make it to that list, if, you know, we're on stage telling every single climate tech company, every climate investor in the world about Bitcoin and why it could be this important climate solution,   you know, that's how that's how we that's how we get adoption. Right?  



[01:12:13] Unknown:

Oh my gosh. That's amazing. So you said verge 24?   Verge 24. Verge 25. Yeah. Which When is it? When is Verge 24?  

[01:12:20] Unknown:

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. It might be might be 25. I have to I have to check. But,  

[01:12:25] Unknown:

Either way, that's incredible. But  

[01:12:28] Unknown:

yeah. We have to we'll apply and, you know, hope hopefully,   folks in the community will will get get behind it and help us with the message that Bitcoin   can be climate tech. Right?  

[01:12:40] Unknown:

Totally. And, oh my gosh, that's great news. I'm so glad because that like, once you're in the door at Verge, then you can go to the Greenfin and the Greenbiz, and they'll get all that stuff because they're all under the same   oh, I hope that happens. Yay.  

[01:12:54] Unknown:

And, you know, we we've, like   again, we we try not to, like we we we very much operate behind the scenes, but we, for example, brought the first ever delegation of Bitcoin mining companies   to COP 28 last year in Dubai. Right? It was the first time ever that Bitcoin   was present at the world's most important climate change conference, the most important meeting on climate change. Right? And the goal is, like, not to come in and tell people, hey. You're dumb. You you don't know what you're talking about. We're answering really good. It's to say, hey. Like, ask those questions. Because for 1, you know, there's plenty of problems that the climate community is facing that Bitcoin could possibly help. And conversely, there's a lot of issues that, you know, Bitcoin and the Bitcoin mining industry might might encounter when it comes to climate   that this existing body of knowledge and work could actually help avoid. Right?  

So the energy transparency piece is a great example. Right? A lot of Bitcoin miners don't understand, like, what it means to, you know, buy clean energy in a way that sort of is aligned with best practices.   You know, maybe there's other industries that we take lessons from.   So, yeah, I wanted to be more collaborative.  

[01:14:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Me too. I think cross pollinating and having lots and lots of opportunities to converse and   ultimately be super curious,   you know, about each other and not defensive and not I'm right, you're wrong. It's like, no. Here's this thing called the Earth that we wanna protect   so we can have a planet for our children and the children's children, and here's the money supply. Hopefully, that will be a positive   solution. Here's also ways that we can do this with energy. I think it's it's,   it's super duper important. So I'm excited that you're doing this, and   I'm just so glad to know you. And this is such a great journey, and we're just we're just getting started.  

Oh,   that's kinda odd. Yes. We get the problem for sure. It is. Are you gonna be in Nashville?  

[01:14:46] Unknown:

I'll be in Nashville.   Good. Me too. Here in Forest.   3 75% of our team will be there, which sounds really amazing, but we actually only have 4 people. So,  

[01:14:56] Unknown:

I'm That's good.  

[01:14:58] Unknown:

Yeah. It'll it'll be great. We'll be doing interviews for some of our friends and partners in the space. You know, so, you know, I would love to sort of, you know, interview you if,   if that's an interest.  

[01:15:08] Unknown:

I'll be there. I'm gonna be there. I'm did yeah. When when are you guys do you have a booth or anything set up? Or you said, like, tell me how we're gonna people can find you there.  

[01:15:18] Unknown:

So I'll be speaking at Bitmine, which is gonna be the,   sort of institutional Bitcoin   pre pre Bitcoin conference events,   for those that are there.   So find me there.   And then I'll be around at Bitcoin Nashville, mostly meeting with our mining partners, talking to some of our potential institutional investors.   I'm trying to bring some of my, like, climate NGO and policymaker   colleagues to the event as well.   Excellent. Yeah. The Bitcoin the Bitcoin,   magazine team is sort of very,   supportive of of that kind of engagement.   Wonderful. Trying to convince friends from the White House.  

I think   I actually just wrote an op ed about this, but I think we're   almost at this point where it'll be impossible to separate Bitcoin from politics, which I'm quite worried about.   Yeah. So maybe that's your next maybe that's your next podcast. You bring some really smart policy folks in. But   I think we're   the same way that and having worked in the client community, I'd like to say this, but like the same way that we made climate almost like a progressive issue,   even though it's something that everybody   cares about or most people care about,   I I think we're almost at this point where   I think the other side of the aisle,   will make Bitcoin a part of an issue and that you know, you won't be able to support Bitcoin if you're a progressive.  

That that that actually concerns me a lot. I think that's a lot more   I think that's a greater existential threat to Bitcoin than any of the climate energy,   FUD.  

[01:16:53] Unknown:

Just to clarify, you you're saying you think that because one party, obviously, we're having Trump and Kennedy that are gonna be at,   Bitcoin conference. You're saying if they are obviously promoting Bitcoin, which they are, do you think progressives and and the the democrats are gonna be like, oh, we have to go oppositional just because these guys like it?   Like, that's, like, shooting yourself in the flesh.  

[01:17:16] Unknown:

I I agree. I I unfortunately think and this there's nothing that and I I've worked for both Republicans and semi I worked for president Trump at the DOE, and I worked for president Clinton. Like, I worked Uh-huh.   Both both Republican and Democratic politics.   In my experience, there's nothing that that one party likes to do more than co opt an issue from the other party.   Right? Especially if they can get ahead on it like a very popular issue. So, you know, I've I've spoken to Republican,   policymakers   who care deeply about climate change, they care deeply about the environment,   but they know   that if they   sort of, support those kinds of issues,   they lose elections. Right? It becomes not politically viable because   somebody can move to their move to their right,   or they get ties from the other side. Right? And I think that's what we're starting to see. Right?  

Again, I don't think it has to happen that way. Everybody should care about about, you know,   sensible policy.   I think if   if, Republican lawmakers, which have historically been more supportive of the industry again, there's plenty of Democratic lawmakers that also are supportive, like congressman,   Nicholl,   congressman Torres. Both of them used to be my all of my representatives have been quite pro crypto.   So senator Gilliban,   Wiley Nickel,   Richie Torres,   Maria Salazar.   I don't think it's because of me, but,   I think it's just a happy coincidence.  

There are Democratic,   congresspeople that are or legislators that are supported.   But if you   if if if the Republicans   come at it in a way where they say, like, we're gonna end the Democrats' attack on the industry. Right? Like, the Democrats are against you and we're for you,   I think   then Democrats will have no choice but to then be oppositional.   Like, senator Warren doesn't care one way or the other about the industry, but she knows it's a political issue for her. Right?   But if they say, hey. Like, you know, we   and also Democrats don't wanna follow. Right? Like, Republicans and Democrats, they don't wanna, like, follow the other party onto a policy platform.  

So   I I don't blame them because it's a you can't fault them for a winning strategy. But anyway, that's my that's my my worry.  

[01:19:42] Unknown:

I know you would think, like, in certain   common sense issues, right, like,   that everybody could get united on, you know, whether it's   taking care of kids, whether it's children, whether it's protecting the earth, whether it's common sense, you know, financial instruments. It's   it's such a bummer, you know, when people have to have that tribal   us versus them   mindset.   And and that's where I feel the consciousness of Bitcoin, you know, obviously, it's not this end all, be all thing, but this is why I call this podcast Bitcoin for Peace because I really do believe   it's a unifier. It like, money is something that touches us all, so is water, so is air, so is the earth. And   so for any of us to drop into a lower,   level of thinking and consciousness around any of those issues,   it's like we don't have to be here. We can literally rise up and be unified as humanity.  

You know? And I I think it's super important that   we keep pushing that narrative and that possibility because   we're being spoonfed   toxic,   you know, tribalism   everywhere we go.   And it's all fear based.   You know? And it's all I have to be a defensive voter or I have to do this just because I don't want that guy and la, la, la, instead of truly voting or making decisions based on numbers,   math, facts, analytics, data, yada yada.   I think, you know, our job as as, you know, creative evangelists and, you know, activists and entrepreneurs is to really keep remembering, like,   this is the new future that we wanna build, and it doesn't have to keep looking like this old way, like Bucky Fuller talks about that. You know? And so   that's really, really positive and important, I think, for all of us in our conversation. So,   hopefully, that's gonna be how we keep moving forward with Bitcoin and, hopefully, in Nashville too.  



[01:21:35] Unknown:

So Amen. Yeah. Reach reach me.  

[01:21:38] Unknown:

Yeah.   So I'm I will definitely I wanna definitely see you in Nashville.   I think I get in on Wednesday, and I'll be gone on Sunday. But I'll be DJ ing at the closing party, so that's gonna be a fun little,   fun event.   I'm excited for that. And yeah. And we'll be speaking I'll be I think I'm doing a panel on Saturday for value for value for musicians, so that will be kind of fun to talk about. But, but where can everybody find you who's listening and not watching? Where is the best place for everybody to find Elliott David?  

[01:22:11] Unknown:

I mean, I mean, I try to be active on, like, LinkedIn and Twitter. Mhmm.   So, you know, find me there. I would say if if you're gonna, like, sort of an unsolicited,   DM,   I would say connect with me on LinkedIn. That's probably the easiest.   Okay. You could also find me on Twitter.   You know, there are folks that are interested in working with SVP. You know, they can email me.   At Nashville, I'll be around. So, you know, we're we're solidifying our schedule our schedule of meetings right now.   But, yeah, Bitcoin Bitcoin doesn't start or stop with the conferences. It's kind of a 247 thing. So, yeah, folks should reach out if they wanna learn more and   yeah.  



[01:22:54] Unknown:

And say, hey. For sure. And so, yeah, make sure you guys go follow Elliot,   on Twitter   or or  

[01:23:02] Unknown:

I'm sorry. I keep cutting you off there. But, if you follow our social media accounts too, like LinkedIn and Twitter, like, they're pretty active, and they kinda post regularly about the industry, about the space. Cool. A lot of educational content, so certainly follow us there.   It's more interesting than what I post anyway.  

[01:23:20] Unknown:

I'm sure they're both amazing. And yeah. So I'll have all the the links in the show notes for everybody here, but make sure you guys go check out,   on xsustainablebtcorsustainablebtc.org,   and you can follow Elliot,   on Twitter at elliott_j_david.   So   thank you again so much. I know that our time went up a little bit more but we could talk about this obviously for hours and hours and hours and that's what we love to do, is talk about our missions and how things are going to make the world a better place. Any final thoughts or words for the audience right now then who might be on the fence about Bitcoin as, you know, boiling the oceans and how, you know, how can they understand the truth versus the the fiction?  

[01:24:05] Unknown:

Yeah. I also,   especially for folks that are kinda skeptical or, you know, maybe even anti Bitcoin,   or think that we sound like a bunch of crazy people.   I haven't seen I haven't seen that show Ted Lasso, but there's this one scene from the show that I really like where he says,   be curious, not judgmental. So that would be my advice. It's like, be be curious, not judgmental. Like, learn a little bit. If you then decide, you know, that it's not for you or if that, you know, you don't care, like, maybe you're you do have financial inclusion, you don't care about Bitcoin, then   power to you. But,   you know, be be curious. I think it's true for people too, but, like, about Bitcoin. You know, be be curious.  



[01:24:49] Unknown:

I love   that you're ending on this. One of my   this is something my sweetie talks to me about. So, yeah, it's great. And we both love Ted Lasso, so yay.  

[01:25:01] Unknown:

So I've watched I've actually watched the show. I think I I hope I'm not in this clothing.  

[01:25:05] Unknown:

It no. It's perfect. It's definitely it it's great. So, yes, you're it's perfect.   Well, I love that, and I can't wait to see you in Nashville. And everybody else who's tuned in, yeah, let's go have some fun in Nashville. This is gonna be a very interesting conference for sure.   And, thanks again for tuning in to Bitcoin For Peace. And I'm DJ Val and thank you guys for all the work that you're doing out there in the world, Elliot. And, make sure you guys go to sustainablebtc.org   and follow what they're up to. So until next time, everyone, peace, love and warm aloha. Thanks again, Elliot.  

[01:25:40] Unknown:

Thanks, Val. You bet.