In this enlightening episode, I sit down with Abubakar, the CEO of Recursive Capital and a board member of BTrust Builders, to discuss the future of Bitcoin and Lightning development, particularly in Africa. He shares his insights on the importance of nurturing highly skilled developers on the continent, providing them with access to jobs, talent, and mentoring to advance the Bitcoin ecosystem.
We delve into the various projects he's involved in, including Volt, a financial freedom wallet, and the impact of initiatives like BTrust Builders in training developers. Abubakar highlights the rapid progress African developers have made in contributing to Bitcoin Core and other significant projects, emphasizing the importance of open-source contributions for job security and ecosystem growth.
The conversation also touches on the challenges and opportunities in the Bitcoin VC landscape in Africa, with Recursive Capital being the only Bitcoin-focused VC on the continent. He shares his vision for fostering a resilient Bitcoin ecosystem through strategic investments and community-driven development.
Toward the end of our discussion, we explore the ethical considerations in the Bitcoin space, the role of virtue and integrity, and the personal growth journey that comes with being part of this transformative movement. His reflections on his spiritual journey and the importance of prioritizing virtue over ego offer profound insights for anyone navigating the Bitcoin world.
Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that spans technology, ethics, and personal growth, and discover why Africa is poised to play a pivotal role in the future of Bitcoin development.
https://x.com/ihate1999
https://x.com/btrust_builders
🔥 LISTEN TO EPISODE HERE
https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/djvalerieblove/177
(00:00:03) Introduction to Abu Bakr and His Mission
(00:02:19) Abu Bakr's Role and Projects in Africa
(00:04:06) Importance of Training Developers in Africa
(00:05:03) Impact of Bitcoin Initiatives in Africa
(00:08:11) Hackathons and Community Building
(00:09:20) Investment Strategies: VC vs Open Source
(00:13:37) Recursive Capital's Role in Africa
(00:17:44) Challenges and Opportunities for Bitcoin VC in Africa
(00:21:21) Combining Development and Venture Capital
(00:24:29) Volt: A Bitcoin Wallet for Resilience
(00:28:14) The Future of Bitcoin Wallets
(00:34:34) Onboarding and Educating New Users
(00:40:34) Nostr and the Future of Social Media
(00:48:06) Value for Value: Supporting Creators
(00:53:36) Personal Growth and Spiritual Journey
(01:04:59) Advice for Newcomers in the Bitcoin Space
❤️ SUBSCRIBE to the LOVE Warrior Newsletter
https://djvalerieblove.com/subscribe
🧡 SUPPORT THE SHOW WITH TIPS - Thank You!
https://getalby.com/p/djvalerie
💛 SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST
YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@djvalerieblove
WEBSITE: https://djvalerieblove.com/podcast
FOUNTAIN.FM: https://fountain.fm/show/761jhxFiibErm7eZZdlt
APPLE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bitcoin-for-peace-dj-valerie-b-love-friends/id1441540841
SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/6kZfzFZ3wKmWiljDajrJZ5?si=a9433473b06f464b
RSS: https://serve.podhome.fm/rss/4996bcea-e098-5a89-ac63-af7a3df7cb5d
💚 FOLLOW DJ Valerie
X - TWITTER: https://twitter.com/djvalerieblove
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/djValerieBLove
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/djvalerieblove/
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dj-valerie-b-love/
NOSTR: npub184cwc849sejs5pr566zcg4pqn53zzk85q70gmwqx7qt77h3suansvet30s
🩵 DJ VALERIE’S FAVORITE TOOLS
AUDIBLE - Get 2 FREE Audiobooks https://www.audibletrial.com/bitcoin
SHAMORY - Have Fun Learn Bitcoin 10% Discount shamory.com/love
REAL MUSHROOMS - 25% Off 1st order https://shop.realmushrooms.com/?ref=1232
PODHOME.FM - 3 months FREE Podcast 2.0 Hosting https://www.podhome.fm/?via=valerie
NUBYEN - Natural Beauty 15% OFF Code "DJVALERIE15" https://nubyen.com
PAY WITH FLASH - Bitcoin Payments https://app.paywithflash.com/login?ref=7c443b63f7eb784403ec7f0a093950c542275095607be6aab76ce433f116887c
PODCASTING INDEX - https://podcastindex.org/
SATSBACK - Get Bitcoin rewards when you shop https://satsback.com/register/Ezv2VLwKXgLd8X4Z
PERPLEXITY AI - Get $10 OFF https://perplexity.ai/pro?referral_code=U661YIKD
HEATBIT - 5% OFF Code = PEACE -Earn Bitcoin & Save $ Heating Your Home https://heatbit.com/?ref=LOVE
BTC TRADING CARDS - Have FUN + Learn Bitcoin https://btc-tc.com/LOVE
💙 DJ VALERIE’S FAVORITE EVENTS
https://b.tc/conference/2025/ Use code LOVE for 10% OFF
https://www.adoptingbitcoin.org/ Use code DJVAL for 10% OFF
https://sovereignminds.ca/
https://baltichoneybadger.com/
https://bitblockboom.com/
https://unconfiscatable.com/
https://bitcoinunconference.com/
https://afrobitcoin.org/
https://oslofreedomforum.com/
💜 BUY, TRADE, STORE, MINE BITCOIN
HODL HODL no KYC https://hodlhodl.com/join/NMKLQ
SWAN - Get $10 FREE Bitcoin - Dollar Cost Average - https://swanbitcoin.com/djvalerie
RIVER FINANCIAL Buy Bitcoin Safely -Get Up to $100 in FREE Bitcoin https://partner.river.com/LOVE
BITCOIN ADVISER - Estate Planning and Key Guardian for Bitcoin https://content.thebitcoinadviser.com/valerie-b-love
TREZOR - Get 10% OFF Trezor 5.0 and Onboarding Call https://affil.trezor.io/SHcT
COLDCARD Discount 5%- Promo Code “CKBTC” store.coinkite.com/promo/PEACE
SAZ MINING - Get $50 OFF your Bitcoin Mining Order https://app.sazmining.com/purchase?ref=DJVAL
BITCOIN MENTOR - Learn Bitcoin Self-Custody-Use code LOVE30 for $30 OFF https://bitcoinmentor.io/aff/love/
🩷 DJ VALERIE'S FAVORITE IDEAS
WHAT IS VALUE FOR VALUE? - ADAM CURRY https://value4value.info/about/
[00:00:04]
Unknown:
If you care about the next generation of Bitcoin and Lightning developers, you have to tune in to this episode with my friend, Abu Bakr, who's the CEO of Recursive Capital. He's also on the board of BTrust Builders and he's working on Volt, the financial freedom wallet. He is so special. We had the best conversation. We talked, of course, all about what's going on over on the continent of Africa and why it's so important that we have highly skilled developers who have, access to jobs, access to talent and mentoring so that we can keep moving the Bitcoin ecosystem forward.
We also have some special conversation toward the end of the interview that you don't wanna miss. We get into ethics. We get into prioritizing virtue and many other things. Please tune in and enjoy the show. Alright. Aloha. Hey, aloha. Get ready for an epic episode. And if you love it, please share it. You know why? Because you got the love. Enjoy, my friends. Hey. Aloha, love tribe. Happy thankful Thursday. I have somebody with me here who I'm ultra thankful for getting to meet you in Madera. He is a dear sweet friend and somebody who I've been lucky enough to start talking to about building a better world with Bitcoin. This is the CEO of Recursive Capital, Abu Bakar.
Noor Khalil, welcome. Oh, you're frozen. Oh, there you go. Good. You unfroze. How's it going?
[00:01:58] Unknown:
Great. Great. How's it on your end?
[00:02:00] Unknown:
It's good. I wanna be where you are. Your background looks like somewhere I should be sitting out. We should be having some tea.
[00:02:07] Unknown:
For sure.
[00:02:09] Unknown:
Oh my gosh. So how's it going? What have you been up to? You wanna tell everybody here, like, who you are and what projects you're working on and what's your big giant super mission for planet Earth?
[00:02:20] Unknown:
Definitely. I'll take it in in those chunks, really. So in general, I essentially am a Bitcoiner here in Nigeria. So I'm the CEO of Recursive Capital, which is basically a Bitcoin VC that invests in Bitcoin companies, specifically in Africa. I'm also one of the board members of a trust called BTrust, or essentially one train developers through BTrust builders, as well as also providing grants and also supporting initiatives like, you know, the developer education programs and places like, Global South, essentially. And some conferences too that we've previously sponsored include the Afro Bitcoin conference, which is happening in December for anyone who wants to come and see the ecosystem. And then other than that, I do a variety of other things in the space primarily around code. So contributing to Bitcoin Core, mostly code review, and then the recent wallet I launched, called Vault, which essentially is supposed to be kind of a a way for us, African developers, to kind of help with the global development of of wallets in general, what it means to have a Bitcoin wallet in 2024 with Lightning, the the Prestea, all that kind of stuff. So in that sense, you know, what the majority of my time is. And other than that, I'd say, you know, just playing Call of Duty and being helpful in the space.
[00:03:30] Unknown:
Awesome. Do me a favor. Move your microphone so it's directly in front because every time you move, it it goes in and out of the quality, because your voice is so good. You've got, like, the best radio voice ever. I just I would listen to you if you read me bedtime stories.
[00:03:46] Unknown:
That'll be my next my next thing that I'll unveil, bedtime tales or the booboo car.
[00:03:52] Unknown:
I love it. A booboo car. Let's go. So okay. So you're obviously, you've got your hands in a lot of different things that are overlapping and, obviously, on the big same mission to, you know, get Bitcoin adoption out there and obviously in Africa. Why is it so port important that we have more, developers trained in Africa? What why do you think that's such an important initiative?
[00:04:14] Unknown:
For a variety of reasons. I think primarily as Bitcoiners, one of the main things we can all agree on regardless of where we are in the world is that we want Bitcoin to continue being resilient. We want it to continue to have all the value propositions that we keep professing like censorship resistance, ensuring that we have privacy first tools, all of that. And I think an important part of that is making sure that the folks that build on Bitcoin have that as a priority. And naturally for us here in Africa and other parts, we already have a lot of issues that Bitcoin solves on that level. So it is in our interest perpetually for us to ensure that these are safeguarded on the protocol level. So I feel the more we have folks with that in mind, the better for everyone around the world.
[00:04:50] Unknown:
And how what's been the reception so far with the projects that you guys are working on? Like, what's your before and after, and how have people's lives, you know, individually changed, and how have communities started to change because of these initiatives?
[00:05:03] Unknown:
A lot has been very positive. I think what surprised me at least personally when we first started, and I I'd say maybe talk about, like, initially with Gala, which got folded into Btruss builders with Btruss is we weren't exactly sure to what extent the appetite was there. And 2, to what extent the timeline would be from someone who doesn't know anything about Bitcoin, but is a developer all the way up to contributing to Bitcoin Core. I realized very quickly in under 2 years from all the way starting all the way up to work with BTrust that it doesn't take that long for African developers to actually become zeroes all the way up to here as some folks would like to characterize it. And I'll give two examples, really. One is Vlad. He's one of the first early engineers that we had come out of the the education programs that we run 2 years back, part of the first cohort, and he was one of the leading devs that started contributing to, the Bitcoin development kit. And then following from that success, last year, we had another developer called Abu Bakr who actually started learning not only just C plus plus but also protocol development. And by the end of the year, he was already a very dedicated Bitcoin core contributor to the point where right now he's involved in a couple of PRs that are really, really high level for those that are looking at, you know, protocol development on the mempool side and things like that. So it's been interesting to see, 1, the reception, 2, to see the successes very quickly in a short amount of time. And over the last 2 years, I see we probably train like on the orders of hundreds of folks, really. So the program starts from, Mastering Bitcoin essentially, where they run through the program 4 weeks, have a bunch of questions to get together all the way up to a more intense version of that program. And then through that, they they start to contribute to open source because that's been a major priority for us, especially after the folding to B Trust. Because we realized that, yes, it's good to get them jobs in Bitcoin companies, but then the problem is the first folks that get cut off when we get into a bear market is essentially those who got the entry level jobs. So for job security reasons and obviously to help protect the kind of the ethos in general, I'd say stack of the spaces. The idea was to have them go into open source because that's always gonna be around regardless of the market cycle. So, yeah, we've seen a lot of successes. A ton of that has to do with also getting into communities with, petdevs that we sponsored through, BTrust in a variety of African cities. So we saw what that what that came with is each individual developer that was already through the programs or at least going through some of those parts of the program started kind of creating their own local ecosystem because they don't force things down from BTrust. The idea is really to kind of make everything as organic as possible or essentially just the touch point to kind of seed all these initiatives. So it's been cool to see them, 1, create their own ecosystems or able to help collaborate and then have a giant umbrella of 1, essentially one development community in Africa, which hadn't been the case like 5 years back when we all started. It was essentially just like 5 of us or maybe 10 of us around the continent loosely communicating and working. Whereas now we have like tens, if not hundreds of folks around the continent, not only just building, but constantly engaging with the community, engaging hackathons that we sponsor. So it's definitely been great on the whole, and I think then help catalyze the general development ecosystem and other parts too that are kinda adjacent to the African market. So places like South America, Latin America, and all those other parts.
[00:08:12] Unknown:
And tell me more about the hackathons. Like, are they all virtual? Are they all in person? Are they hybrid? How does that work?
[00:08:18] Unknown:
It's been hybrid. So the ones that I'm specifically referring to has been the ones that we've attached to the Afro Bitcoin conferences. And with that, one of the things that we started prioritizing was making sure it's not just only for developers to get in. Because you noticed that obviously to get to the level of adoption that we need to make sure that we're building tools that people will actually use. Wanna make sure our designers are also involved, for folks that are doing product marketing, things like that, projects management. Sorry. So, yeah, in general, we try to increase the amount of participation so every single person that can provide value does have the opportunity to do so, not just developers.
[00:08:50] Unknown:
And so you've obviously you're you've got your hands in the VC world, which is obviously private for profit, and then you've got open source and the grants. And so, you know, I know you and I talked about this a couple weeks ago and about possible projects. So there's obviously pros and cons for projects to move forward in an open source format or in a for profit format. Do you wanna tell people here, like, how do you determine, like, how you're gonna invest in things as a VC and then how you're gonna say, cool. This stuff should stay over here in open source.
[00:09:20] Unknown:
Yeah. Definitely. It's been an interesting learning process for me personally because, obviously, I don't have, like, a decade's worth of investment banking or things like that. So it's kind of been mainly learning on the go. Obviously, it's been helpful that the ecosystem is not large enough where asking for help or listening to other folks and kind of meeting them is not an impossible thing to do. So a lot of it has been ensuring that at each point in time when I'm evaluating whether it's a product or procuring, kind of ideas from entrepreneurs to kind of bucket it into exactly where that fits in the overall ecosystem because ending under kind of a loose set of pipelines that each yield a different result at the end of the day, but all kind of compound to one thing, which is the general growth and maturity of the space. So for me, it's ensuring, okay, if I'm looking at this project, is it a case where there's a business case potentially that could be had? Then that's where the VC hat comes into play. Otherwise, we know given the fact that it's such an early Nissan market, we're not essentially gonna have a lot of really wide variety of company that have an insane amount of business case to the point where they're immediately profitable in, like, 3 months and things like that. So definitely gonna be a journey, which is why even with Recursive kind of prioritize walking some of the projects that are not there yet to ensure that they're at the stage where they're investable, obviously having the point that they're already a for profit, at least driven on that mindset. But at the same time, given how early they are, I want to make sure that we're conscious in terms of the kind of entrepreneur they're cultivating on the space because, again, there is no Bitcoin VC in Africa other than Recursive Capital. So a lot of the work that we've been involved in has been kind of defining what the landscape should be like, maybe the priorities, the things things that entrepreneurs should be focusing on, and how to responsibly run a Bitcoin company essentially. So not only in terms of funding the ones that we feel have that business case, but also ensuring that those that are coming on board understand that the best case scenario for them is making sure they prioritize the building, and then the growth kind of becomes a natural function of that. So, yeah, splitting those 2, ensuring that on the dev side, we have all the relevant resources as well as kind of a well paced pipeline for people that are trying to get into the space. So it's not a case where you have to be really early into the space and then walk through the whole pipeline. Wanna make sure people that have gone through a certain part of that pipeline can come back and then have some other opportunities. So I wanna make sure we have all those sort of opportunities at each point depending on the type of developer that already exists. So matching to the ecosystem as well as growing that. So I'd say that's how I kinda bucket the 2. That's amazing. And so for as far as, like, people getting jobs well, I wanna go back for a sec.
[00:11:45] Unknown:
What kind of projects are you investing in as a VC versus, you know, what you're saying, okay, this isn't ready for for investment yet?
[00:11:53] Unknown:
So a lot of it has been around at least some of 22 ways, basically. So one is some of the budding and very straightforward use cases that we see obviously with regards to, you know, how it plays as a medium of exchange, things like that, and capturing that value at those across those type of opportunities. And then on the other side is trying to ensure that we're also on the lookout of emerging trends that have found use case essentially in the continent. So some of that has been in things like mining, for example, or even some of the work on the Lightning Network where you're allowing for, you know, both the remittances as well as some of the value for value use cases that are starting to come up. They're still not there yet. There's a lot of work to do. And then the interplay between that and Noster and kind of how that would cascade into further use cases that we feel, honestly, right now, we can't necessarily evaluate until we get to that point. So I say those 2 is kind of how we look at it. So they've been projects all the way up to FEDI with regards to collaborative custody, all the way up to Sonoda, essentially ensuring their energy bill payments through the Lightning Network because we feel SaaS are the most intuitive way you can measure energy consumption, especially for miners and energy producers, all the way up to Bitnub, which will likely be one of the larger players here in the continent in terms of the maturation of the general space and what it means to be a Bitcoin company. So that's kind of where we bucket it out and how we're looking at the variety of use cases. So it's not just a case where we're just funding exchanges and then wallets like was the case in 2018. Now there's a wide variety of companies that we're getting into as well as seeing it emerge.
[00:13:16] Unknown:
That's awesome. And I know, you know, we had talked before about Wolfe, in New York, and they're doing, you know, different accelerator type, you know, these 8 week programs that are immersive. Are you guys gonna be doing anything like that with recursive capital where, you know, you might be taking some applications and then just having the mentors guide, you know, some of these companies forward in the this space?
[00:13:37] Unknown:
Yeah. Certainly. And so, internally, we have been doing that for quite a few years now, and what we'd like to do moving forward is really make that more formal as a process so a lot more folks in the space are aware of that part of recursive capital. So could create that flywheel really that would help with the general pipeline of actual companies. And obviously, it's also gonna help with regards to kinda how we're optimizing essentially both the timelines it takes as well as some some of the conversations because, again, the general goal for us on the VC side really is obviously capturing the value for our LPs, but doing it in a way where it's a natural part of the growth of the ecosystem. So it's not a case where we're just kind of value extractors essentially. So providing an opportunity for folks to actually grow their business and that being kind of the way in which we're able to capture that value and making that part and parcel, not against the kind of kind of the growth in general, which we've seen in other ecosystems in general that haven't helped.
[00:14:32] Unknown:
And and so you had said earlier, you're the only v Bitcoin VC in the entire continent of Africa? Yep. That seems like such a huge opportunity, you know, and we need more money to help developers in these businesses. Like, where why have more, you know, why don't we have more,
[00:14:52] Unknown:
funding in there? Why don't we have more VCs? What's the hold up? Is it, you know, just too many I don't know what what I wanna hear. Like, why aren't why aren't we investing more here? So there are a couple of reasons and I'll just attack the well, list them out essentially. So the first few ones, just to give kind of a quick background to this. So I launched Recursive in 2020, and back then, the closest thing we had to kind of capturing what was going on in the space here was web 3. Kind of lost with that battle in terms of how I characterized it essentially when I launched the the introduction article was kind of ensuring that it's financial freedom through Bitcoin as well as, you know, privacy preserving protocols as being the two things that contribute to Web 3. Lost that naming model hat rebrand as a Bitcoin only VC in 2021, even though we're always a Bitcoin VC, but making sure that was more outwardly perceived by entrepreneurs. And then the conversation started going from, okay, well, Booker, don't you feel it's kind of against the value proposition of of venture capital fund to kind of risk all your investments in one specific category, which is the Bitcoin space? But then my counterargument has always been the same from the start, which is if we're talking about long term, which obviously should be geared to, at least this is what LPs should want to hear from you, then you have to make sure that you're actually positioning yourself for the long game and not the short term game of all these, you know, define kind of these wazoo, out of the wazoo type of tech stuff. So for me, it was natural that if we're seeing in the long term, what are the things that we're looking at? It has to be within the Bitcoin space, and it only makes sense for us to bet on something that has that sort of, that sort of long term stability really. And and we'll be there in the next 10, 20 years. So for me, it was simple as, okay, the only thing that's likely gonna last in this space is gonna be Bitcoin. And out of that, there's definitely gonna be an ecosystem that will be birthed out of that because it is gonna be the thing that people will constantly continue to build on. So what does it mean for us as a Bitcoin VC to position ourselves to capture that value is going to keep on increasing and also keep on being discovered really as we not only fund companies, but also engage with entrepreneurs.
So the conversation have definitely changed from why risk all of that in Bitcoin to what are the things you're seeing in the Bitcoin space. I mean, when we first launched, there was no Africa Bitcoin ecosystem to begin with. So it's obviously nice to see that now the conversations are around what's happening in that ecosystem. And I feel we'll likely have a lot more participants. I wouldn't necessarily say there'll be more funds being created because, again, a lot of people do feel skeptical that there isn't still maybe a large enough business case to warrant their involvement. But for us, that is a perfect opportunity because just means you further get to establish ourselves as the market drivers and players here in the continent. So by the time they do get there, it's a case where Recursive has built the ecosystem to the point where it's essentially very high signal as well as we capture a lot of the value really for our limited partners ensuring we're making sure that people that come into the continent from outside are not bringing perverse incentives into the continent essentially, which is one of the main reasons why I launched the fund to begin with.
[00:17:44] Unknown:
And I wanna ask you about launching the fund. Like, how you're a developer and you're running a fund. Those are 2 things that typically don't go hand in hand. How how on earth I mean, and you're you're obviously a young man, but you've got an old soul in my heart, my heart's opinion. And, so very wise and mature and just, wow, what a presence. And so how did you how did you combine these 2 gifts and and passions of yours?
[00:18:12] Unknown:
I mean, a lot of it is really just sitting down and reflecting and kinda like you said, projecting out into kind of the distant future and seeing what are the things that first need to be done right now to get to that point. And one of the things that we need to prioritize and how can we essentially create all those foundational blocks that would benefit everyone else coming after us. Cause at the end of the day, my my main goal really is obviously to obsolete myself in the space. Because that's the only true tale true tale way essentially of finding out whether things actually grow or not. Because if you saw the same players in a decade, 20 years, then honestly, there's definitely not a lot of growth here. So for me, it's a case where I wanna make sure we have all the foundational pieces in play so that we actually have an a real flourish in ecosystem. So a lot of that had to do with realizing early on that capital allocation is gonna be a very, very big part of growing out that ecosystem. Because again, to your point, yes, there is the development that's necessary and is the bedrock of everything that anyone is doing in this space regardless of where they're providing value. But at the same time, there are gonna be a lot of instances where the business case will need to be further, further developed so that the general ecosystem does have products and services that service, folks in the ecosystem. So for me, it was a case of seeing, okay. Yes. I am a dev and all that, but what are some of the strengths that I could leverage based on my expertise as a developer? So for me straightforward, it was okay. Yes. I'm launching the fund, but the main priority for me is to kind of hone in the skill of calling out things that are not worthwhile investment wise. Making sure that I prioritize kind of my bullshit meter essentially of detecting whether something is useful long term or not. And then over time, it became okay understanding on the operational side. What does it mean to actually run a Bitcoin VC? What does it mean to run a VC in general? What does it mean to create ecosystems from scratch? What does it mean to kind of erect pipelines? What is the interview between that and the development space? So I've been fortunate enough to be at different points and kind of the or should I say different parts of the ecosystem that allow me kind of a unique viewpoint into the whole space from a holistic standpoint in the sense that I'm more of all the things happening in developments, development ecosystem as well as on the entrepreneurial side and the the VC space. So combining those 2 over time has been 1, making sure I sharpen my skills on the dev side, being able to call that on the technical side. 2, engaging with developers constantly to ensure that all the folks that are building are informed and building for things that people are seeing both on the ground as well as on the development side. Then on the VC side, it's a case of being able to immediately pick out between whether something has a good business case or not, whether there's some more growth to be to be had really, which is why over time is when I kind of increased some of the capacity that I had at Recursive because essentially I was just a CTO at Recursive and then eventually had to step into the CRL when I felt comfortable enough and in my abilities to kinda lead the the project itself. So that's essentially how I've kind of navigate the space in the last, I say, 5 years now. It feels like a decade plus so far, but that's just what happens with Bitcoin. It ages you tremendously.
[00:21:09] Unknown:
Well, I think it ages you with the wisdom because you're you're such a young, beautiful soul. And like I said, I'm just like, wow. I'm so impressed with you and everything you're doing. And, let's talk. Do you wanna talk about Volt? And is Volt a project of recursive, or is it an open source project? You wanna tell everybody about what's going on over
[00:21:29] Unknown:
there? So yeah. Definitely. And with Volt, it's very interesting. So started with a few conversations with Alex Godstein from the MRIs Foundation back in 2021. Mhmm. And a lot of a lot of the dynamics at the time was, again, we've we had the Bitcoin ban here in Nigeria, which essentially, we essentially made it which essentially prohibited, I'd say, the interaction between bank transfers and Bitcoin payments essentially. So a lot of a lot of the feature of the landscape was kind of put into question. So my thinking at the time was okay. We can start building for resilience right now to a point where when we do get to these government bans or maybe some of the policies that will come on the regulatory side that might disrupt the ecosystem. We do have fallbacks, especially on an open source level in terms of the code resilience, all that. So eventually, over time, it became a case where eventually got the grant from Alex to start work on this back in 2021.
And from 2021 to around, I say, 2023 has been honestly looking at exactly what the main pain points are because I wasn't about to start building and dictating to people things that I feel should be taken seriously in the space. So it was a case of, one, experimenting because I started the project like 3 times from scratch. So essentially forked, BlueWallet initially and then realized that wasn't gonna go anywhere. Then I started from scratch again, realized that wasn't gonna go anywhere. And then in 2023, that was like a year plus after understanding exactly what the main pain points are around UX, ensuring that things work with lightning from day 1, hiding a lot of that and obscuring some of the technical parts of what it means to run a Bitcoin wallet. And then it started from basically building the basics of what a wallet should be like. So around new technologies for even when it comes to self custody tools around, wallet descriptors all the way up to using Lightning, some of the bolt card stuff that we've seen, incredible work out of the PPC Pay Server team and and the general ecosystem they created out of that through the conferences and battle testing that. So a lot of that was okay by this year. Around this year, it was a case where I had the opportunity to launch it at the human rights, also Freedom Forum, which is obviously kinda like, what I say, a a full circle moment for me because it all started with HRF essentially with with the wallet. So for me, the on the wallet side, really, it's it's pretty straightforward.
We're seeing we wanna make sure that all this building that we're seeing are going to come out of the continent. A lot of that is going to start happening. So for me, it was a case of saying, okay, here's a wallet that I feel based on all the interactions I've had with developers and entrepreneurs that would serve as kind of a good fallback and kind of a reference point for what it means to build a good Bitcoin wallet. And eventually having that be a case where African builders band together to build this wallet for everyone else that wants that same level of resiliency around the world. So essentially my gift and kind of a way for me to see the ecosystem to start building along the lines of ensuring resilience is kept at that level of building, as well as making sure that we do have projects that other folks can look on to to understand exactly what we mean by Africans are going to start building for the Bitcoin space and going to lead at that building. So for me, it was a case of just putting my essentially my quote unquote skills both as a designer as well as a builder to to the test and also kind of seeding that to see what happens. So it's been cool. The reception has been very interesting to see other developers from the B Trust pipeline also helping out now with pull requests and things like that. And that's generally the plan for it to remain open source and ensure that people will bind together to build for it. And we'll see what happens moving forward in terms of what that looks like, whether that gets flipped out into a venture or not. It's it's one of those things where the kind of the community will see and and decide essentially.
[00:25:00] Unknown:
And so is it so just with obviously, we've got and congratulations. 3 times, that's a lot. I know a lot of people might quit after 1 or 2. They're like, oh, forget it. And then you're obviously tenacious and saw this through. And so, you know, there's obviously lots and lots of Bitcoin wallets out there. Why do we need to keep building more Bitcoin wallets? You know? And, like, is there anything out there that is ubiquitous in all the countries that's anybody can use, or are we constantly looking at limitations from each country and regulations and Apple Store and la la la? Like, what are the what are the like, are you aiming to hopefully have a ubiquitous wallet, or is that even a possibility in the way that our world is currently?
[00:25:44] Unknown:
So I'll say a few things. Like so thinking about the general space, specifically contrasting Bitcoin with the wider, let's say, Fintech or traditional space of building products and services. One of the main differences between the two is there is a tendency for kind of monopolizing the set of tools that people use on the level of being ubiquitous like you mentioned. But that's in the general Internet space where the incentives are essentially to lock in users and then monetize or grow based on that user base that you've accumulated. But the Bitcoin space and specifically with Master as well, pairing that those 2, the incentives are the opposite.
Really for you to win out long term, it's a case of ensuring that your products and services are the most interoperable, provide the best UX and kind of compete on the level of providing the best case, the best experience essentially for Bitcoiners. So I feel it's not yes, in the traditional markets or development spaces, it makes sense to kinda wonder why we need more x or more specific, you know, products and services. But in the Bitcoin space, you likely keep seeing a lot of these things. And what wins out actually is a case where you have something that's highly interoperable, leverages all the mature tools, and even leaning into some of the things that need to get mature that people would need to use. So I feel with regards to Vault and maybe other projects that I'll likely probably see moving forward, the idea is to mimic a lot of those value propositions that people are currently exploring or should be explored, putting all these safety mechanisms to a point where, again, we might not reach ubiquity with Vault, but I want to make sure it's at a stage where it is kind of, like I said, a reference point for a lot of people in terms of what should be built and what folks could use on the daily because again, no one's gonna bring out a new wallet that is gonna be the only wallet that Bitcoiners use. A lot of Bitcoiners that you, I'm sure, have interacted with and even yourself have a ton of wallets. So a lot of things that went out is, again, if you ask yourself, why do I use this specific wallet more than the others? It has to do with both the UX, how that ties into your life in terms of providing value, are you able to move volumes through that? Is it a case where it's a savings angle? Is it more secure than the others? So definitely different use cases for different wallets. But I feel with something like Volt Vault on and make sure it focuses in on the most pertinent use cases so that it becomes a daily driver for a lot of Bitcoiners and not necessarily the only wallet that they're gonna use because I feel that's unrealistic.
[00:28:03] Unknown:
I get it. Yeah. That makes sense. I know we all wanna test all the wallets and certainly use them for different purposes, you know, hot wallets, cold wallets, and deep deep storage, all that. Exactly. So is there anything that you've run across on this journey that you're just like, we haven't been able to solve for this issue yet in any of the wallets, in any of the, you know, like, customers wanting something and some kind of feature functionality that is just a big stuck point? I'd just be curious.
[00:28:35] Unknown:
I mean, there are a couple. I I think the ones that are still gonna be necessary moving forward, especially given the dynamics I've seen on on the continent here in Africa has been around focusing in on on and off ramping specifically with no KYC PTP tools. Like, the the main challenge we've had is and it's kind of also an opportunity. Obviously, now, Binance virtually doesn't exist on especially in place like Nigeria with the the narrow pair essentially being, taken out because of the pressure from the government and things like that. So there is a huge opportunity for players that are both in Africa as well as outside of Africa to service that market of PTP that has a tremendous amount of volume, which, you know, we lead globally. So I feel if we're able to capture a good amount of that through NoQIC P2P Reels, then we can't afford to find that fundamental level of liquidity provision where we're not necessarily locking them into some of the walled gardens or some of the custodial services that could result in, you know, locked liquidity, which doesn't help with any sort of commerce or markets in general. So I wanna make sure that we have the opportunity for people that are coming in and kind of engaging with the Bitcoin ecosystem to have that level of unbounded liquidity. Obviously not ensuring that we have, you know, tools in place to kind of mitigate some of the folks that are doing the fairest activities, but at the same time, ensuring that the main priority is on providing services that maximize both free will as well as kind of the general privacy people maintaining their privacy and kind of their autonomy in the space and not just dictating down. So I see that a lot of that has to do with, yeah, building around our QIC P2P bridges. I think if we're able to solve that both for onramping and offramping, a lot of the other work will kind of just be a natural downstream from some of those efforts. So, we'll see what that happens and then building resilience around some of the tools that we're building that, let me choose my words carefully so I don't reveal things.
But essentially ensuring that some products are focusing on, again, that resiliency that matches the level that we need at the continent, ensuring that people can't just ban some of the tools that we're building. And it would become just as hard of a way to ban it as, let's say, banning the entirety of maybe the commercial markets in Africa. So making that entrenched to the point where it can actually have a future and a chance to actually still be around in a decade plus.
[00:30:47] Unknown:
And is that, like, something that's in the form of a protocol and not an app, or is that how we keep things safe sort of like how Noster and Bitcoin worked, that it's protocol it's not the platforms where they can get us?
[00:31:03] Unknown:
Yeah. Essentially, it has to be both. Because again, on the protocol side, we wanna make sure even at the Bitcoin core level, a lot of these guarantees and assurances are there from day 1. But then downstream from that, again, we also wanna make sure that some of the additional networks that we're creating on top of that, whether it's for liquidity provision, also mimic a lot of that resiliency. And then building off of that would be the tools and services also mimic those levels of resiliency. So we have, like, a full on end to end ecosystem where we're guaranteeing all these, assurances from day 1 through all the ways in which you can interact with Bitcoin. Because the major issue is gonna be not necessarily that is Bitcoin gonna be around in the next decade plus. We already know that's likely gonna be the case. The issue is gonna be, would it be the same access of Bitcoin that people right now have versus those that would be coming after us? I think that's where the main focus should be on the development side and ensuring that even people in the future have a way better experience of Bitcoin and a lot more of the guarantees from day 1 than we currently do. Yeah. It's definitely intimidating when you think about all the regulations in different places. Right? And you think of here in the States with the 6102,
[00:32:04] Unknown:
now we've got the, I think it's the CFTC, the commodities. They're trying to turn Bitcoin into commodity and then there's gonna be some whole shit show. So I'm not totally up on all of this, you know, regulation stuff, but I know it's pretty intimidating to think if you're stacking for a while and you're like, hey, this is gonna be my future, and then the government can come in and say, nope. You need to go turn all your Bitcoin into us and we're gonna give you some paper Bitcoin, which is worthless. And so it's super important for all of us to think about, you know, how to be adversarial in our development and adversarial in thinking, you know, they're not looking out for us. They're looking out for the survival of themselves, which is this beast kraken that I call it.
And then, you know, it just wants to keep feeding itself. So it's like, do do people, in Nigeria or anywhere where you're working, like, do they understand, like, how important this is, or do they think, like, no. No. No. I wanna go to my trusted third party bank or whatever. Like, are they starting do they catch on? Because here, people still don't get it. I mean, it's, like, 99.9% of the people you talk about why you need decentralization and why self custody is important and not having this 3rd party. People are just they're so brainwashed into the system.
You know, it's difficult to really help them understand that, like, no. Like, you need to cover your booty, you know, because this could really happen at some point, be especially with currency collapses everywhere on the horizon. Certainly.
[00:33:39] Unknown:
Certainly. And I think, yeah, a lot of that is so, honestly, a lot of the work has been done and has continued to be done essentially by governments in in Africa for us when it comes to not just evangelizing, but kind of providing case studies for people to look at. Because if you look at the general trajectory of even a country like Nigeria, with all the bonds that have happened and all the currency issues, the financial issues, obviously with the devaluation of the currency, the multiple instances that we had at the Nara, kind of the issues we had with cash the cash crunch with the USD and all of that. I think one thing I would say is that I don't think we would need a large majority of the population to understand every single thing that has to do with what are the main values that Bitcoin does provide. I think the best case scenario that I've seen has worked so far has been to kinda show them practically what that means. So what I mean specifically is juxtaposing the realities that they have currently with using whether it's traditional financial tools like the Narrow or well, virtually, no one uses the e Narrow. I was gonna cite that, but, I digress. So using all those tools and also the alternatives that people profess are that exist for for Bitcoin and then contrasting that with what it what the experience is when you do use Bitcoin specifically the correct way. So even if it's a case where someone has experience using Bitcoin and it's been a case where they've been doing it maybe through custodial services that have gone bust, contrasting and going, okay. Yes. That was Bitcoin, but that is not exactly the most ideal version of Bitcoin you could use. Here are some more practical tools you could use that actually do guarantee, safeguarding your assets essentially long term. So I feel the the orange pilling quote, unquote essentially is more around constantly building these practical tools for people to experiment with and constantly highlighting case studies that we will continue to see and have seen in the past that have either scammed people or maybe people don't necessarily understand what it means to why okay. What the benefit is to have maybe private tools or no KYC P2P bridges and then highlighting, you know, government seizures of money or even when it comes to a case where maybe you're censored to the point where money becomes censored as well and how Bitcoin protects against that. So once you have a lot of these tools that are people can experiment with, naturally become the case where they do the learning themselves. Because the truth about like orange billing is it's a two way street. It's not a case where we just present all these magical things that Bitcoin does. It's a case where people are aware of these things through experimentation, and then they get the guarantees that we've been talking about, and then the conviction takes place, and then that's when the actual orange billing takes place. And then down the line, because a lot of people tend to say, you know, when to get orange billed. A lot of it, if we look at the stories tend to be retroactive and retrospective and not necessarily a case where, oh, you know, January 15th was when I was orange peeled. So a lot of that has to do with the personal convictions that they've had that kind of help them navigate through the space because it is it is a journey at the end of day for all of us. So I see that's kind of how I think a lot of the things will go moving forward and kind of the things that we've seen. And again, it's one of those things where we wanna make sure that we're building for a lot of that resiliency from day 1 because if that doesn't exist, then we could talk all we want as long as people aren't able to actually use it in the way that we claim people can use it, then nothing's gonna move forward.
[00:36:45] Unknown:
And do you find, obviously, you know, the number one thing, you know, entrepreneurs talk about is, like, you know, you need to talk your customer. Talk to your customer. Talk to your customer. You know, and really understand what's working, what's not, what this journey is, did they have the transformation that you're promising them, what didn't happen, how does it get better. I mean, I I think that's such an important, you know our two ears are more important than our one mouth
[00:37:10] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:37:11] Unknown:
Of and listening to everybody. Let's talk about, let's talk about what's on the horizon for you, like, with are you gonna be at any events that I should come and see you? Are you going to the ABC? Can I I've I've just had, Marcel on yesterday, so I was like, oh my god? I gotta get my butt over. That's my bucket list.
[00:37:32] Unknown:
Definitely. No, Sam. I'm gonna think you're gonna make it to Afro Bitcoin. It's gonna be in Nairobi this time. It's actually my first time in Nairobi, so it'll be interesting to see all the Bitcoiners I've been in touch with, for the last couple of years that are there. And obviously given the situation now in Kenya, it's very important for a lot of us in Africa really to look onto the brave, obviously the the brave folks, the Bitcoiners that are down there and kind of what the pain points are on their end, kind of learn from the orange peeling they've done so far, as well as some of the ways in which people are using Bitcoin that are maybe we're missing out here in West Africa and other parts. So I think it's gonna be an interesting learning experience. I think a lot of people enjoy both the general vibe of the ecosystem here. I always say it's one of those which is very, very vibrant and has a lot of very, very intelligent deep thinkers. So a lot of people definitely leave with a lot of nuggets. And the other event I'll definitely be making is Riga. So Baltekani Badri that's in, I think, about a month in August. So if folks haven't been to Riga, then I don't know what the hell they're doing.
[00:38:30] Unknown:
Don't say that. I wanna I I have so much FOMO. You have no idea. My daughter's starting in college, and I'm like, I can't go in anywhere Oh, no. Next year, hopefully. Hopefully, next year. Unless she kicks me out. She's like, mom, I don't go away. I don't want your help. Like, if she does that, I mean, I doubt she's going to because I mean, who knows? Maybe she will, but it's right around that time. But, yeah, that's a super FOMO. Are you guys gonna be doing some hackathons there?
[00:38:56] Unknown:
Yeah. We're we're definitely gonna we're looking at having another hackathon for Afro Bitcoin. So, yeah, we'll definitely keep keep folks in the loop with regards to how that, transpires, the theme, things like that, and how to register and be involved. And there'll be will there also be hackathons in Riga? Of not that I'm aware of, but another thing that might interest a lot of people is that Nostraiga is happening there. So for a lot of folks that are interested in Nostra development and kind of the the ecosystem there is gonna be paired with the general OG Bitcoin conference vibe that Baltic Honey Badger traditionally has had.
[00:39:29] Unknown:
That's gonna be so amazing. What have you seen in the nostril space, if anything, that is just, like, leaping forward? You know? And because, obviously, we're coming up Like, I've just noticed I'm on, you know, Twitter, and I was doing a bunch of different posts and looked at some analytics, and everything this month has been down about 70% reach. And I've been a little snarky lately on Twitter, but, nothing like, the stuff that I see other people posting that are getting millions of follows and likes and reach and all this, I'm just like, I'm not posting anything near that snarky and cursing and the whole thing. And I'm just like you know? So it's frustrating, and I know that all you know, here in states and all out of the place in the world, there's a lot of elections this year.
So I feel like things are getting suppressed. You know? Our voices are definitely getting censored, and there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes with the algorithms. Like, have you seen anything with Noster that is, you know, gonna start pulling ahead so that we can get people using it and not feeling like, what's an end pub and it all that stuff, you know, that is a little weird at first?
[00:40:34] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, a a lot is likely gonna help contribute to, again, drawing in that ubiquity for folks to kinda think, okay, social media, I think, Nostar is one of the the options and kinda the general milieu that we have. But I think the one thing I've been interested in seeing kind of evolve over time has been, again, the value for value use case really with Master, which is allowing for a mechanism to actually reward people that provide something you find of value, even when it just comes to zapping in general. I still think that's hugely underrated with the general public not being aware of that mechanism generally for social interaction. So I feel a lot of what we'll likely see in terms of the onboarding will likely be as a result of that share use case. And what that'll look like is, again, a lot of the tools, one of the benefits of DynoSphere space obviously move really fast, which is very helpful for quickly testing out things that do work and things that don't work and understanding and how people, receive and perceive a lot of these changes. As again, there are no walled gardens. So it's a case where a lot of folks that even currently do use an All Star are not just using one primary client. It's a case where they're using it through a variety of mechanisms, different, essentially tools and services. So it'll be a case where the more well built the tools get, the the more it becomes more of a good argument really for people that are considering an alternative to x or maybe some of the traditional social media that they find toxic, for example. And again, by the very fact that we have this mechanism for actually rewarding things that people find out value on social media, I feel is gonna also pairing that with a lack of censorship to begin with since it is a protocol. Those 2, I think, combined will likely maximize kind of the the general way people feel social media should be, which is a person navigating all these sources of information for themselves and seeding out and starting out what the signals are. And then obviously having tools in place to actually maximize that effort to others. A case where you have your own specific algos that cater to maybe maximizing certain content that you deem signal and things like that. But just generally ensuring that we're providing for individuals to maximize all the alternative that they have and opportunities to see all sides of whatever tail it is that they're looking at or angle. That way, we don't have people who are being told exactly how to think or providing, you know, biased biased standpoint. So striving to essentially be objectively biased and kind of how we see through information around that. So I think that's how Nostar would likely take off and I feel the more people that come into Nostr that are not in the Bitcoin space, the better for Nostr in general. Because they don't want a case where it's seen as just a a Twitter for Bitcoiners, essentially. We wanna make sure that people understand that this is a novel social media experience for the the whole world.
[00:43:09] Unknown:
Well, I think to, you know, getting in different types of creators and educators and people who, you know, have different ways that they're earning income, you know, through plays or through their education that they're up to. And so, you know, we're doing this thing with, the Bitcoin or Hub, and we're gonna have you know, it's gonna be a whole value for value education model. And so we want people to be able to just if they wanna make a, you know, a a value for value exchange with the creators, great. If not, the content's there, no big deal. And so for us as, you know, any type of a creator, you know, whether it's music, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a course, whether it's a blog, whether it's, you know, anything, a meme, You know, it's really fun for all of us to do this for you know, because we're passionate, but it's also important that, you know, we earn a living so that we can, you know, get milk for our children.
And so I think retraining ourselves as consumers and as creators is very, very important because we're so used to getting everything for free because we're the product, obviously, from the advertisement perspective. This is something I think is a unique challenge, you know. And you and I had talked about the Super Wallet concept, which I started white boarding yesterday. You'll be proud of me. I'll share with you when I get it when I get round 1 done. But but that's that's something that I was even thinking just from that super wallet mindset of having that, you know, your content wallet. That could go as just a a segment of all the other types of wallets that are out there. It doesn't even have to be its own stand alone thing. It could just be it could go in the the Volt Wallet. It can go into Stripe. It could go into anything so that, okay. Here's my content and my lightning budget that's gonna be a little, you know, module that's in all of these things. And so so I think that could be something in it. I don't know. That just came to me when when you were talking. But, but I think it you know, for all of us to, like, be able to have that mindset of, like, I love supporting my creators or my developers. You know? And so I think this will be a fun project to kinda to play with. But do you feel like like is there any plat or any, client side stuff that's out there that is geared for education using Noster, like, from a course perspective, you know, where it's like, here you you know, it's one thing to have, like, a blog post or, like, 5 blog posts in a row and you can say, cool, this is section 1 through 5, blah, blah.
Have you seen anything being built on that for education?
[00:45:42] Unknown:
Not a lot. But I I would say, like, there there are a couple of things that are emerging that I think are very relevant to kind of how that would play out and to the extent that we see that happen or not is, again, one is Geyser, I think has been very interesting to see because one of the main issues we've had, or at least I've kind of seen and folks have outlined is the Bitcoin space has to for it to get to a point where it's growing is when we start to think about building tools and services that are not just for other Bitcoiners, because there's only so many Bitcoiners that we could provide tools and services for Mhmm. To the point where it becomes so saturated that there's no more growth in terms of folks actually getting involved, which obviously the majority of people actually need Bitcoin or non Bitcoiners right now if we're looking at it from that standpoint. So I feel a lot of the efforts around doing things that Geyser had been able to facilitate when it comes to just allowing for money flows to happen in places that don't necessarily have that access with traditional, fundraising mechanisms is I feel gonna be very, very powerful and would likely last will likely leave a lasting impact in terms of how people perceive the value proposition of Bitcoin overall to humanity.
Because I feel if we get to that stage where people are using tools built by Bitcoiners without necessarily being Bitcoiners, then that is the point where we understand, you know, the proverbial Bitcoin is now mainstream. I feel that's when we reach that mainstream level of both adoption as well as sentiment that people have. And then I see in terms of how that plays into education is, one, we already have mechanism now, like, you know, guys are where people can actually post their educational efforts to get funded. But a lot of funding has also come into the space that wasn't there 5 years ago through other initiatives, whether it's B Trust or OpenSci, for example, especially with the the education, grant section that OpenSci recently announced. I think a lot of that is gonna help catalyze given the fact that a lot of the activity also on the funding side has been through OpenSci. So it's cool to see. Obviously, I'm getting into the education ecosystem. I feel they're likely gonna help propel a lot of these projects that you're talking about that maybe don't exist right now that could exist. But at least those are kind of the trends I'm seeing that I feel will be really, really important and will be a concomitant part essentially to how we not only scale out this ecosystem, but provide that sort of awareness to non Bitcoiners that, hey, we're not just building and it's an echo chamber, it's actual value that we feel that people should get access to. And these are the ways in which you can get access to. And that's the only way we can know whether we're just talking to ourselves about things that don't necessarily exist as use cases or if they're actually useful things to the rest of the world.
[00:48:07] Unknown:
Totally. And I think, again, like, coming back to getting more people outside of the Bitcoin, you know, space into Bitcoin, it's like, again, coming to the creators, educators, anybody out there who you know, a $100 a month, $500 a month makes a difference. You know? And so if you're getting zaps instead of just like, okay. I get a dollar for every 1,000 plays on, you know, Spotify if I'm a musician, if you're getting a $100 because you're building that fan base through Nostra, it's such a game changer. And so to consider all of the 99% of creators out there who aren't with big labels, who don't have giant marketing budgets, who don't have agents, you know, so if they understand think about the millions and millions of, you know, creators out there and and artists and coaches and, you know, people out there in that space and the wellness community, like an extra 100, $500,000 a month and you're providing direct value to your audience and you're getting that feedback knowing like, Wow, Abu Bakar keeps, you know, zapping me on this kind of a post. This is great. I know that he really likes this stuff. So I'm gonna, you know, send him a big thank you. You don't know who's listening to your content on these big channels, you know, whether it's Tidal or Spotify or whatever.
I I think it's super like, that to me, once that domino can get knocked over and we can really start helping these folks, you know, these millions and millions of, creatives out there, like, they're gonna be like, well, why am I not doing this? Heck, yeah. This is cool. This is easy. I can do these splits. I can, you know, get my producer paid. I get myself paid. And then, wow, what a neat way for the system to grow instead of just being in these other walled gardens of the record labels or of the central, you know, distribution channels like, you know, Amazon and Apple and whatnot. So I think it's gonna be you know, value for value is still really small, and it doesn't mean it's your main source of revenue as a creative, or an educator, but it sure does help with, you know, a little bit more each month perhaps, you know, if we could get this out there. So that's gonna be one of I mean, it is one of my goals is to help, you know, creatives understand how Bitcoin can get into their ecosystem and then not having to wait for 90 to a 180 days to get your hay outs.
You know? So it's like, nope. Look. You got it instantly today because someone's listening to your stuff today. Or so I think, you know, what Wave Lake and those guys are doing, there's there's so many great projects out there, and I I just it's gonna be fun to keep seeing how these artists go go from 0 to hopefully more than 0 in the Bitcoin world.
[00:50:55] Unknown:
A 100%. A 100%. And I think one of the things that'll be interesting to see is seeping through the way, or at least seeing how the evolution happens with regards to artists and content creators and how they engage with their their fan base through, you know, zapping and things like that. Because again, there is, there are a variety of ways you can get high signal in terms of how people are receiving your content. And there's no better way really than getting zapped and knowing that, okay, that person did find it useful. So you actually have meaningful metrics and not just, you know, plays or listens, which obviously can be gamed. It's a case where if someone did send you money, then it's a case where they definitely like that type of content. So again, like you said, it's we're not at a stage where it can form the main source of income, but the very fact that that mechanism exists and the fact that people are already using it with the small ecosystem that we have, I think it's a huge indicator that there is not only a large opportunity here, but I think is one of those things where we've been looking at from a paradigm shift perspective that could actually make or break the the future of what it means to be a content creator and how people can monetize by themselves of their own volition and not necessarily being the product.
[00:52:00] Unknown:
Totally. I mean, I think, like, why doesn't Spotify and all of these big, companies, like, just have an opportunity for zapping your artists? Like, think about it. If you're a distributor, right, your goal is to have the best content out there and the best products and the best, you know, things for your audience who are paying these, you know, monthly subscriptions. So, you know, you knowing that you're only able to pay a little bit per play, you know, to these new artists, wouldn't it make sense from a business standpoint if you knew, like, it doesn't cost you a penny at all? You still get your subscription model, and then you add this layer of zapping into your platform, I mean, holy cow. That would be great because then now the artists are getting, you know, a little bit of supplementation. So guess what? Now they can actually make more content instead of having to go flip burgers at McDonald's and then hopefully get a new song out on, you know, their their spare time.
So it's such a no brainer to me. Like, why wouldn't they wanna implement, here you go. Just add a a little zap button and there you go. They've got the wallet, whatever. Take 5% if you really think you need to make money to Spotify on your artist, but, like, give it to the artist. You know? So I don't know. I'd be I'd love to see if if like, why is Jack not doing this on title? Like, that would be something
[00:53:22] Unknown:
come on, Jack. Where are you, brother? Who knows? We don't like it. Conversations are happening.
[00:53:27] Unknown:
Like, I wanna see this. You know? And and that would be amazing if if that could start happening for the creators. You know? Anyways, I'm just rambling on. Let's I I wanna just talk really quick, if you have time, about you know, you and I have had a couple of really nice deep conversations about our spiritual journey and about some personal growth that we've gone through. And I would love to ask you about, you know, what's been your personal growth transformation before and after becoming a Bitcoiner?
[00:53:58] Unknown:
That's I mean, a lot a lot has definitely changed, like, in terms of both my outlook on life, the priorities I have in my life as well, and how I assess priorities moving forward, how I kinda critique myself. Obviously, that self love too is one of those things where I'm definitely at a point where I'm I'm a lot more mature in terms of handling, things that get thrown out, the adversities of life and things like that, and especially welcoming adversity in general. I think a lot of that spiritual growth has mimicked, obviously, my own personal growth through, you know, Islam, and a lot of that has been really around for folks that are familiar with stoic philosophy, essentially, where we're looking at the things that you can control within within your realm of control and not necessarily hanging on to things that are outside of your control because those are one of the primary sources of anxiety to begin with. And just being comfortable with who you are as a person and knowing that you're not one thing at a specific point in time, but you have essentially a set of ideals that you'd like to move forward and progress towards. And that becomes like some sort of the foundation for your identity in the sense that you're always trying to strive for. Those ideals are not necessarily a case where you feel this is who you are, you can't change or you can't grow because then that's where people get into the trap of, you know, getting into abusive relationships or even being abusive to themselves, which is like the worst relationship you could possibly have. So again, having for that capacity for growth, understanding that not having pride is the only way in which you could actually grow because if you're unable to take in things outside or handle situations on the adversary there on in terms of adversity, there's really no way for you to kind of process that and reflect, especially which is something that's seldom done in a lot of the in the world currently. So I feel Yeah. That before Bitcoin, I was definitely just, Yeah. I was definitely just a stereotypical kid, you know, just different priorities, music, games, all that kind of stuff. And then over the course of the last couple of years, given all the opportunities I've had and I've been blessed with, I feel it has definitely changed the way I understand and kind of even relate to people. Like, I was a lot more, I say, maybe louder than I am now currently. And over time, you start to realize that the the best case scenario you could could have really is to to learn rather than just speak. So a lot of my interactions have definitely changed with folks that I previously were friends with or continue to be friends with. And, yeah, it's definitely been one of those things where striving for a healthy version of myself, I've seen has also benefited folks that I actually care about that are close to me in my life. In terms of how I engage with them, I also critique them.
I provide them with, you know, the empathy that's necessary for them to also grow. And that also helps with my own accountability in terms of, you know, mutual exchange of love and things like that. So I say that in a nutshell, that's kind of how it shifted and kind of changed over the years. And definitely glad that I went through this progression. It could have easily just taken me 40 years to figure that out. Probably even die without figuring a lot of these things that I've been forced to contend with over the last couple of years. But again, it's also one of those things that know, the space is so small that folks don't really care about your age coming in, and it's only the only concern that a lot of people have is, you know, the value that you provide. And that's why over time, I've kind of just found it a lot easier to optimize that as opposed to just, you know, being the the young guy doing a lot of things. So that's definitely another thing that has been very, very useful.
[00:57:13] Unknown:
That's amazing. And and do you feel like this space I mean, I feel like I've met so many high signal, high quality people, especially men, like, you know and I'm comparing, you know, our our ecosystem and our ethos, like, with other folks out there in the world, whether they're corrupt, whether they're just, you know, living kind of, you know, type lives. You know? I used to be an MPC. Totally don't I'm not acting like I'm somebody special here, but it's like once you get Bitcoin in your blood, in in your system, in your whole, everything starts to shift. You know? And and I feel like, you know, there's so many wonderful men who embrace, you know, the typical not typical, but, you know, a traditional model of what a man is, you know, and the model of being masculine. And, you know, and it's not about, oh, power over clobber women and pull them by their hair.
But it's really about that personal responsibility. It's about integrity. It's about what you said, showing up with value, and how are you creating, the world around you to be a safer, better, more prosperous place? Like, do you find that you're, you know, encountering a lot more of those people in the Bitcoin space and the people are trans you know, transforming as they come in, you know, into that space, or do you think people who are already kind of in that masculine vibe are naturally gravitating towards Bitcoin? I don't know if that's a that's a long ass question.
[00:58:45] Unknown:
No. No. No. It is. It's it's good to have the have it all painted out because I I think it's the latter, to be honest with you. I found that, at least, you know, based on the my life experiences in general is for a lot of people that are principled and actually have, like, a high level of, you know, self worth, really low ego, very driven, very, very high value. And that standpoint is they tend to also constantly accumulate other other values essentially over time that maximize those. So I think naturally, it makes sense to me that a lot of the Bitcoiners that we see tend to be folks that are already at that stage in their life where they're looking to continue to align themselves with things that maximize things that they value long term in terms of being principled, high value, all of that. And I think it's not a case where it's necessarily Bitcoin itself that causes that change. I think, obviously, for any sort of meaningful change to happen to any any anybody really requires that inner self reflection and that acceptance really of both the realities on the ground as well as things that you should be orienting yourself towards. So it makes a lot of sense that with all the things that are happening in the world right now, there are very, very few things that you could actually orient yourself towards that maximize that sort of, a sort of level of conscientiousness or understanding, you know, being virtuous and things like that. And Bitcoin just happens to be one of those things. And, obviously, there is the spiritual angle I mentioned too, like, with orienting yourself towards god, something outside of yourself subjecting your ego, ensuring that that is now a mechanism for you to drive for self growth as opposed to kind of growth within the compartment of essentially yourself. So now you have unbounded growth essentially, which is something that should be useful. So I'd say, yeah, that's definitely how I see it, and I think we'll likely continue to see that, and I hope it continues to be the case because that's one telltale sign of whether we've essentially done the work that we should be doing in the Bitcoin spaces.
And then if we still have folks that are that principled driving at least the ecosystem on a meaningful level or not. And I think that's gonna be even more important than just building, to be honest, because the most important thing is the the folks that are in the space vis a vis the some of the products because they go hand in hand in terms of maintaining the stability.
[01:00:55] Unknown:
Yeah. It definitely, it's about the people and, obviously, the people at large in the whole world that hopefully we can serve and get out of, this matrix that we are living in. It looks crazy. I I definitely feel, Bitcoin has transformed my heart and my soul in a way that is just, wow, and it keeps doing it. Every day, it's like a little onion layer. Like, woah, I didn't know that that was there, and that challenges me to come forward in a better way, you know, and not, just not settle for, like, a a lazy version of myself. You know? And and I think it's like and there's no you know, like, what I love about our commune you know, Bitcoiners and and this this freedom lovers community, it's like we hold each other up, but nobody's, like, shaming each other and really you know, it I think it's really powerful. Yes. There's a lot of snarky comments out there in this way, which is kind of kind of, you know, but and then, obviously, some of them are a little over the top. But I think for the most part, if we're out there, you know, putting our best foot forward, there's always gonna be a 100 people there ready to, like, be the wind beneath your wings and, like, give you encouragement and give you, care and enthusiasm. And they'll call you on bullshit too. It's still like, I don't think so, which is needed. We don't need a bunch of yes men out here.
[01:02:21] Unknown:
Exactly. You know, it definitely helps. And, again, even just navigating the space in general, it's been one of those life lessons that folks need to, you know, learn early on or at least be aware of to try and navigate the space effectively is understanding that intelligence in one domain specifically being a highly intelligent Bitcoin or whether it's on technical side or otherwise, does not translate into intelligence in other domains, whether it's like politics or things like that. I fear I've seen a lot of that transpire on X, especially with regards to people seeing certain folks that are highly intelligent on the Bitcoin side, but then see the most absurd things politically. And you can tell there's definitely a lot of to get to into the specifics, but definitely a level of maturity that's missing that hasn't been translated from some of the other disciplines and maturity that they have in other domains. So I think the earlier people get that out of the way, the better that they're able to navigate through the space because they're all human at the end of the day. No one's going to be perfect and have like pristine takes on every single thing. I'm learning to compartmentalize and dealing with people accordingly is going to be very, very valuable as you navigate the space because you're going to continue to have very interesting people come into the space, people from parts of the world that you have no idea culturally speaking and things like that. So understanding where everyone is coming from, not taking things to heart, ensuring that you're constantly being a force of good as opposed to contributing to all the chaos, I think it's kinda the the only way we can make sure that this space continues to exist and provide all the value that we feel it currently does and should in the future.
[01:03:49] Unknown:
I agree. And I I know I feel like we're always getting checked out there. And what you said too just about if somebody's got, you know, great skills and intelligence or capabilities in this area or this domain, it doesn't mean they're necessarily gonna be equal in all of the domains of life. You know? And a lot of times, some people will be like, oh, I'm so great at relationships and communication, but I'm not that great with technicals or numbers, you know, and vice versa. And so I think we have to always remember to just that we're all just little we're just humans. We're just human blobs walking around trying to figure it out.
Oh my gosh. What I just one last question. What would you say to somebody who, you know, is a young person and maybe, you know, doesn't have to be super young, but who's interested in getting involved in the space, you know, in in Africa? Like, what where would you tell them to go? How would you tell them to start, you know, reaching out, connecting with you or with BTrust and, you know, what's the best way for people to start, you know, dipping their toe in, especially if they're brand new?
[01:04:59] Unknown:
Yeah. A lot. And I think they're definitely coming at a good time, like, 5 years, 10 years back, there was virtually no resources that were accessible to people outside of the space. I think one of the main things is, you know, there's this thing by Jameson Law that he has where it's essentially kind of a treasure trove of a self paced, set of, you know, tools, services, and resources for people to kind of check out. So that'll be an just a wider resource that people should be aware of. And I see more specifically here in Africa, the touch points are very straightforward. My opinion would be if you're located in, let's say, a place like Nairobi or, maybe Lagos or Abuja or Kampala, already have bid devs essentially sponsored from, you know, Btrust where they could go and meet other Bitcoiners and start the journey from there.
Another one would be on the development side. If they're developers and they're looking to get their get into the space, the best case scenario for them is to reach out to Btruss Builders. Probably follow the x account. We post a lot, especially you sign up to the newsletter. A lot of great gems there about both the development and the ecosystem generally as well as, you know, information about the training that we do in general and, you know, grant applications, all of that. Another thing I would say is just generally following, you know, the activity in the space, following Bitcoiners that are here on the continent. I would say, you know, I write a Forbes column. That's one of the things that I prioritize, which is writing about, you know, and kind of and, I'd say maybe chronicling essentially all the developments happening here in Africa. So looking at that, being subscribed to a lot of these other newsletters, especially the Human Rights Foundation newsletter, I think that's very useful. They have a Bitcoin section that's always on point in terms of the main things being captured that are happening that are significant. So I say those are the main things, to be honest, and the most important is just don't feel like there's any such thing of, like, a stupid question that you're asking because all of us, there's no one that knew about Bitcoin except Satoshi, so we're all learning at the end of the day. And I think another thing would be, especially for the younger folks, like, it's very easy to get hung up on putting your identity as the young person, quote, unquote. But it's also very important to realize that being young is just a very, very small part of your life. So the more you start to attach yourself to that is when you tend to have a lot of the life crisis down the line of as you age, starting to realize that, okay, what does it mean to be me? And then you start to, you know, spiral off essentially with anxiety creeping in. So once you're able to understand that, yes, you're gonna be young for a small amount of time, so it means you should maximize a lot of things like orienting yourself principle wise and ensuring that virtue is something that you do prioritize, then it becomes very, very easy for you to transition into the bulk of your existence, which is being an older person. So I think, yeah, a lot of that has to do with accepting, you know, advice, critique, criticism, mentorship, and then gradually graduating into a mentorship role yourself as well because that helps reduce your ego subject yourself to also, you know, mutual kind of learning with the person that you're mentoring and things like that. So I see that's how I would give general advice with regards to navigating the space and ensuring that they don't get distracted. There's a lot that's happening in the space always.
Make sure that you're a person who constantly is striving to provide value and constantly learning and ensure that, yeah, you just don't get distracted. It's very, very easy to get distracted. A lot of things happening in the space. They'll always keep being a lot of things. And, yeah, once you once you have a lot of those things sorted out personally, it's going to be a lot easier for you to change the world once you've actually conquered the self.
[01:08:12] Unknown:
Yeah. And it's a never ending, dance of of the ego, the battle of the ego and the soul and the love and the heart. And I really love you said, to prioritize virtue in your life. I think that really, really powerful statement. A lot of us, especially, you know, if if you're hungry, if you're starving, if you don't know where your next meal's coming from, it's difficult sometimes. Like, you're just like, I need to get that that food in my child's mouth or in my mouth, and virtue isn't necessarily in the top of your list. It's it's satisfying that hunger. And so I think for so many of us to remember, like, why we need a sound money system and why it is imperative that we keep moving this forward as the most to me, it's the most important initiative on Earth because if we don't have that, then people aren't gonna be able to live virtuous lives because they're hungry, they're starving, they're afraid, they're in danger. And, you know, if this monetary system is completely broken and corrupt, which it is, it's gonna continue to perpetuate that, and we're never gonna be able to rise up to who we are all meant to be, which is children of God, you know, in these beautiful expressions of love and this beautiful expression of harmony and peace on Earth. And so, that's why I know I'm so passionate about learning myself and trying to help other people understand and connect the dots about why this this sound money is hopefully a tool for a more peaceful world. So, so, yeah, we're on we're on the same team. Yay.
I hope I get to see you in December. It's gonna be my bucket list dream to get over, over to ABC. And so Definitely. Definitely. Looking forward to it. Yeah. It's gonna be great. So, any final word, like, to tell everybody? We wanna make sure people who are listening are and aren't on the video, they go to follow you on x@ihate1999. You can also look at builders.btrust.tech if you guys are interested in checking out. I'm gonna have everything, of course, in the show notes and all the links so you can check out a Google car, over there. But, yeah, just any one final quickie closing.
[01:10:25] Unknown:
Let me let me channel my my inner motto, Dale. I'll say stay humble and stack sass and definitely prioritize virtue over the ego.
[01:10:35] Unknown:
Oh, I love it. That's gonna that'll be like a big theme in the this episode for sure. So I love it. Thanks so much for everybody who's tuning in right now and, for you for taking all this time to share your wisdom. And I know you keep doing this great work out there. I can't wait to to keep seeing what you're up to and supporting you. And, hopefully, I'll get to see you in, in December. So for everybody who's tuning in, thanks again. Peace, love, and warm aloha, and we'll catch you guys next time. And, until then, have a wonderful day. Alright. Thanks, everybody. Bye.
If you care about the next generation of Bitcoin and Lightning developers, you have to tune in to this episode with my friend, Abu Bakr, who's the CEO of Recursive Capital. He's also on the board of BTrust Builders and he's working on Volt, the financial freedom wallet. He is so special. We had the best conversation. We talked, of course, all about what's going on over on the continent of Africa and why it's so important that we have highly skilled developers who have, access to jobs, access to talent and mentoring so that we can keep moving the Bitcoin ecosystem forward.
We also have some special conversation toward the end of the interview that you don't wanna miss. We get into ethics. We get into prioritizing virtue and many other things. Please tune in and enjoy the show. Alright. Aloha. Hey, aloha. Get ready for an epic episode. And if you love it, please share it. You know why? Because you got the love. Enjoy, my friends. Hey. Aloha, love tribe. Happy thankful Thursday. I have somebody with me here who I'm ultra thankful for getting to meet you in Madera. He is a dear sweet friend and somebody who I've been lucky enough to start talking to about building a better world with Bitcoin. This is the CEO of Recursive Capital, Abu Bakar.
Noor Khalil, welcome. Oh, you're frozen. Oh, there you go. Good. You unfroze. How's it going?
[00:01:58] Unknown:
Great. Great. How's it on your end?
[00:02:00] Unknown:
It's good. I wanna be where you are. Your background looks like somewhere I should be sitting out. We should be having some tea.
[00:02:07] Unknown:
For sure.
[00:02:09] Unknown:
Oh my gosh. So how's it going? What have you been up to? You wanna tell everybody here, like, who you are and what projects you're working on and what's your big giant super mission for planet Earth?
[00:02:20] Unknown:
Definitely. I'll take it in in those chunks, really. So in general, I essentially am a Bitcoiner here in Nigeria. So I'm the CEO of Recursive Capital, which is basically a Bitcoin VC that invests in Bitcoin companies, specifically in Africa. I'm also one of the board members of a trust called BTrust, or essentially one train developers through BTrust builders, as well as also providing grants and also supporting initiatives like, you know, the developer education programs and places like, Global South, essentially. And some conferences too that we've previously sponsored include the Afro Bitcoin conference, which is happening in December for anyone who wants to come and see the ecosystem. And then other than that, I do a variety of other things in the space primarily around code. So contributing to Bitcoin Core, mostly code review, and then the recent wallet I launched, called Vault, which essentially is supposed to be kind of a a way for us, African developers, to kind of help with the global development of of wallets in general, what it means to have a Bitcoin wallet in 2024 with Lightning, the the Prestea, all that kind of stuff. So in that sense, you know, what the majority of my time is. And other than that, I'd say, you know, just playing Call of Duty and being helpful in the space.
[00:03:30] Unknown:
Awesome. Do me a favor. Move your microphone so it's directly in front because every time you move, it it goes in and out of the quality, because your voice is so good. You've got, like, the best radio voice ever. I just I would listen to you if you read me bedtime stories.
[00:03:46] Unknown:
That'll be my next my next thing that I'll unveil, bedtime tales or the booboo car.
[00:03:52] Unknown:
I love it. A booboo car. Let's go. So okay. So you're obviously, you've got your hands in a lot of different things that are overlapping and, obviously, on the big same mission to, you know, get Bitcoin adoption out there and obviously in Africa. Why is it so port important that we have more, developers trained in Africa? What why do you think that's such an important initiative?
[00:04:14] Unknown:
For a variety of reasons. I think primarily as Bitcoiners, one of the main things we can all agree on regardless of where we are in the world is that we want Bitcoin to continue being resilient. We want it to continue to have all the value propositions that we keep professing like censorship resistance, ensuring that we have privacy first tools, all of that. And I think an important part of that is making sure that the folks that build on Bitcoin have that as a priority. And naturally for us here in Africa and other parts, we already have a lot of issues that Bitcoin solves on that level. So it is in our interest perpetually for us to ensure that these are safeguarded on the protocol level. So I feel the more we have folks with that in mind, the better for everyone around the world.
[00:04:50] Unknown:
And how what's been the reception so far with the projects that you guys are working on? Like, what's your before and after, and how have people's lives, you know, individually changed, and how have communities started to change because of these initiatives?
[00:05:03] Unknown:
A lot has been very positive. I think what surprised me at least personally when we first started, and I I'd say maybe talk about, like, initially with Gala, which got folded into Btruss builders with Btruss is we weren't exactly sure to what extent the appetite was there. And 2, to what extent the timeline would be from someone who doesn't know anything about Bitcoin, but is a developer all the way up to contributing to Bitcoin Core. I realized very quickly in under 2 years from all the way starting all the way up to work with BTrust that it doesn't take that long for African developers to actually become zeroes all the way up to here as some folks would like to characterize it. And I'll give two examples, really. One is Vlad. He's one of the first early engineers that we had come out of the the education programs that we run 2 years back, part of the first cohort, and he was one of the leading devs that started contributing to, the Bitcoin development kit. And then following from that success, last year, we had another developer called Abu Bakr who actually started learning not only just C plus plus but also protocol development. And by the end of the year, he was already a very dedicated Bitcoin core contributor to the point where right now he's involved in a couple of PRs that are really, really high level for those that are looking at, you know, protocol development on the mempool side and things like that. So it's been interesting to see, 1, the reception, 2, to see the successes very quickly in a short amount of time. And over the last 2 years, I see we probably train like on the orders of hundreds of folks, really. So the program starts from, Mastering Bitcoin essentially, where they run through the program 4 weeks, have a bunch of questions to get together all the way up to a more intense version of that program. And then through that, they they start to contribute to open source because that's been a major priority for us, especially after the folding to B Trust. Because we realized that, yes, it's good to get them jobs in Bitcoin companies, but then the problem is the first folks that get cut off when we get into a bear market is essentially those who got the entry level jobs. So for job security reasons and obviously to help protect the kind of the ethos in general, I'd say stack of the spaces. The idea was to have them go into open source because that's always gonna be around regardless of the market cycle. So, yeah, we've seen a lot of successes. A ton of that has to do with also getting into communities with, petdevs that we sponsored through, BTrust in a variety of African cities. So we saw what that what that came with is each individual developer that was already through the programs or at least going through some of those parts of the program started kind of creating their own local ecosystem because they don't force things down from BTrust. The idea is really to kind of make everything as organic as possible or essentially just the touch point to kind of seed all these initiatives. So it's been cool to see them, 1, create their own ecosystems or able to help collaborate and then have a giant umbrella of 1, essentially one development community in Africa, which hadn't been the case like 5 years back when we all started. It was essentially just like 5 of us or maybe 10 of us around the continent loosely communicating and working. Whereas now we have like tens, if not hundreds of folks around the continent, not only just building, but constantly engaging with the community, engaging hackathons that we sponsor. So it's definitely been great on the whole, and I think then help catalyze the general development ecosystem and other parts too that are kinda adjacent to the African market. So places like South America, Latin America, and all those other parts.
[00:08:12] Unknown:
And tell me more about the hackathons. Like, are they all virtual? Are they all in person? Are they hybrid? How does that work?
[00:08:18] Unknown:
It's been hybrid. So the ones that I'm specifically referring to has been the ones that we've attached to the Afro Bitcoin conferences. And with that, one of the things that we started prioritizing was making sure it's not just only for developers to get in. Because you noticed that obviously to get to the level of adoption that we need to make sure that we're building tools that people will actually use. Wanna make sure our designers are also involved, for folks that are doing product marketing, things like that, projects management. Sorry. So, yeah, in general, we try to increase the amount of participation so every single person that can provide value does have the opportunity to do so, not just developers.
[00:08:50] Unknown:
And so you've obviously you're you've got your hands in the VC world, which is obviously private for profit, and then you've got open source and the grants. And so, you know, I know you and I talked about this a couple weeks ago and about possible projects. So there's obviously pros and cons for projects to move forward in an open source format or in a for profit format. Do you wanna tell people here, like, how do you determine, like, how you're gonna invest in things as a VC and then how you're gonna say, cool. This stuff should stay over here in open source.
[00:09:20] Unknown:
Yeah. Definitely. It's been an interesting learning process for me personally because, obviously, I don't have, like, a decade's worth of investment banking or things like that. So it's kind of been mainly learning on the go. Obviously, it's been helpful that the ecosystem is not large enough where asking for help or listening to other folks and kind of meeting them is not an impossible thing to do. So a lot of it has been ensuring that at each point in time when I'm evaluating whether it's a product or procuring, kind of ideas from entrepreneurs to kind of bucket it into exactly where that fits in the overall ecosystem because ending under kind of a loose set of pipelines that each yield a different result at the end of the day, but all kind of compound to one thing, which is the general growth and maturity of the space. So for me, it's ensuring, okay, if I'm looking at this project, is it a case where there's a business case potentially that could be had? Then that's where the VC hat comes into play. Otherwise, we know given the fact that it's such an early Nissan market, we're not essentially gonna have a lot of really wide variety of company that have an insane amount of business case to the point where they're immediately profitable in, like, 3 months and things like that. So definitely gonna be a journey, which is why even with Recursive kind of prioritize walking some of the projects that are not there yet to ensure that they're at the stage where they're investable, obviously having the point that they're already a for profit, at least driven on that mindset. But at the same time, given how early they are, I want to make sure that we're conscious in terms of the kind of entrepreneur they're cultivating on the space because, again, there is no Bitcoin VC in Africa other than Recursive Capital. So a lot of the work that we've been involved in has been kind of defining what the landscape should be like, maybe the priorities, the things things that entrepreneurs should be focusing on, and how to responsibly run a Bitcoin company essentially. So not only in terms of funding the ones that we feel have that business case, but also ensuring that those that are coming on board understand that the best case scenario for them is making sure they prioritize the building, and then the growth kind of becomes a natural function of that. So, yeah, splitting those 2, ensuring that on the dev side, we have all the relevant resources as well as kind of a well paced pipeline for people that are trying to get into the space. So it's not a case where you have to be really early into the space and then walk through the whole pipeline. Wanna make sure people that have gone through a certain part of that pipeline can come back and then have some other opportunities. So I wanna make sure we have all those sort of opportunities at each point depending on the type of developer that already exists. So matching to the ecosystem as well as growing that. So I'd say that's how I kinda bucket the 2. That's amazing. And so for as far as, like, people getting jobs well, I wanna go back for a sec.
[00:11:45] Unknown:
What kind of projects are you investing in as a VC versus, you know, what you're saying, okay, this isn't ready for for investment yet?
[00:11:53] Unknown:
So a lot of it has been around at least some of 22 ways, basically. So one is some of the budding and very straightforward use cases that we see obviously with regards to, you know, how it plays as a medium of exchange, things like that, and capturing that value at those across those type of opportunities. And then on the other side is trying to ensure that we're also on the lookout of emerging trends that have found use case essentially in the continent. So some of that has been in things like mining, for example, or even some of the work on the Lightning Network where you're allowing for, you know, both the remittances as well as some of the value for value use cases that are starting to come up. They're still not there yet. There's a lot of work to do. And then the interplay between that and Noster and kind of how that would cascade into further use cases that we feel, honestly, right now, we can't necessarily evaluate until we get to that point. So I say those 2 is kind of how we look at it. So they've been projects all the way up to FEDI with regards to collaborative custody, all the way up to Sonoda, essentially ensuring their energy bill payments through the Lightning Network because we feel SaaS are the most intuitive way you can measure energy consumption, especially for miners and energy producers, all the way up to Bitnub, which will likely be one of the larger players here in the continent in terms of the maturation of the general space and what it means to be a Bitcoin company. So that's kind of where we bucket it out and how we're looking at the variety of use cases. So it's not just a case where we're just funding exchanges and then wallets like was the case in 2018. Now there's a wide variety of companies that we're getting into as well as seeing it emerge.
[00:13:16] Unknown:
That's awesome. And I know, you know, we had talked before about Wolfe, in New York, and they're doing, you know, different accelerator type, you know, these 8 week programs that are immersive. Are you guys gonna be doing anything like that with recursive capital where, you know, you might be taking some applications and then just having the mentors guide, you know, some of these companies forward in the this space?
[00:13:37] Unknown:
Yeah. Certainly. And so, internally, we have been doing that for quite a few years now, and what we'd like to do moving forward is really make that more formal as a process so a lot more folks in the space are aware of that part of recursive capital. So could create that flywheel really that would help with the general pipeline of actual companies. And obviously, it's also gonna help with regards to kinda how we're optimizing essentially both the timelines it takes as well as some some of the conversations because, again, the general goal for us on the VC side really is obviously capturing the value for our LPs, but doing it in a way where it's a natural part of the growth of the ecosystem. So it's not a case where we're just kind of value extractors essentially. So providing an opportunity for folks to actually grow their business and that being kind of the way in which we're able to capture that value and making that part and parcel, not against the kind of kind of the growth in general, which we've seen in other ecosystems in general that haven't helped.
[00:14:32] Unknown:
And and so you had said earlier, you're the only v Bitcoin VC in the entire continent of Africa? Yep. That seems like such a huge opportunity, you know, and we need more money to help developers in these businesses. Like, where why have more, you know, why don't we have more,
[00:14:52] Unknown:
funding in there? Why don't we have more VCs? What's the hold up? Is it, you know, just too many I don't know what what I wanna hear. Like, why aren't why aren't we investing more here? So there are a couple of reasons and I'll just attack the well, list them out essentially. So the first few ones, just to give kind of a quick background to this. So I launched Recursive in 2020, and back then, the closest thing we had to kind of capturing what was going on in the space here was web 3. Kind of lost with that battle in terms of how I characterized it essentially when I launched the the introduction article was kind of ensuring that it's financial freedom through Bitcoin as well as, you know, privacy preserving protocols as being the two things that contribute to Web 3. Lost that naming model hat rebrand as a Bitcoin only VC in 2021, even though we're always a Bitcoin VC, but making sure that was more outwardly perceived by entrepreneurs. And then the conversation started going from, okay, well, Booker, don't you feel it's kind of against the value proposition of of venture capital fund to kind of risk all your investments in one specific category, which is the Bitcoin space? But then my counterargument has always been the same from the start, which is if we're talking about long term, which obviously should be geared to, at least this is what LPs should want to hear from you, then you have to make sure that you're actually positioning yourself for the long game and not the short term game of all these, you know, define kind of these wazoo, out of the wazoo type of tech stuff. So for me, it was natural that if we're seeing in the long term, what are the things that we're looking at? It has to be within the Bitcoin space, and it only makes sense for us to bet on something that has that sort of, that sort of long term stability really. And and we'll be there in the next 10, 20 years. So for me, it was simple as, okay, the only thing that's likely gonna last in this space is gonna be Bitcoin. And out of that, there's definitely gonna be an ecosystem that will be birthed out of that because it is gonna be the thing that people will constantly continue to build on. So what does it mean for us as a Bitcoin VC to position ourselves to capture that value is going to keep on increasing and also keep on being discovered really as we not only fund companies, but also engage with entrepreneurs.
So the conversation have definitely changed from why risk all of that in Bitcoin to what are the things you're seeing in the Bitcoin space. I mean, when we first launched, there was no Africa Bitcoin ecosystem to begin with. So it's obviously nice to see that now the conversations are around what's happening in that ecosystem. And I feel we'll likely have a lot more participants. I wouldn't necessarily say there'll be more funds being created because, again, a lot of people do feel skeptical that there isn't still maybe a large enough business case to warrant their involvement. But for us, that is a perfect opportunity because just means you further get to establish ourselves as the market drivers and players here in the continent. So by the time they do get there, it's a case where Recursive has built the ecosystem to the point where it's essentially very high signal as well as we capture a lot of the value really for our limited partners ensuring we're making sure that people that come into the continent from outside are not bringing perverse incentives into the continent essentially, which is one of the main reasons why I launched the fund to begin with.
[00:17:44] Unknown:
And I wanna ask you about launching the fund. Like, how you're a developer and you're running a fund. Those are 2 things that typically don't go hand in hand. How how on earth I mean, and you're you're obviously a young man, but you've got an old soul in my heart, my heart's opinion. And, so very wise and mature and just, wow, what a presence. And so how did you how did you combine these 2 gifts and and passions of yours?
[00:18:12] Unknown:
I mean, a lot of it is really just sitting down and reflecting and kinda like you said, projecting out into kind of the distant future and seeing what are the things that first need to be done right now to get to that point. And one of the things that we need to prioritize and how can we essentially create all those foundational blocks that would benefit everyone else coming after us. Cause at the end of the day, my my main goal really is obviously to obsolete myself in the space. Because that's the only true tale true tale way essentially of finding out whether things actually grow or not. Because if you saw the same players in a decade, 20 years, then honestly, there's definitely not a lot of growth here. So for me, it's a case where I wanna make sure we have all the foundational pieces in play so that we actually have an a real flourish in ecosystem. So a lot of that had to do with realizing early on that capital allocation is gonna be a very, very big part of growing out that ecosystem. Because again, to your point, yes, there is the development that's necessary and is the bedrock of everything that anyone is doing in this space regardless of where they're providing value. But at the same time, there are gonna be a lot of instances where the business case will need to be further, further developed so that the general ecosystem does have products and services that service, folks in the ecosystem. So for me, it was a case of seeing, okay. Yes. I am a dev and all that, but what are some of the strengths that I could leverage based on my expertise as a developer? So for me straightforward, it was okay. Yes. I'm launching the fund, but the main priority for me is to kind of hone in the skill of calling out things that are not worthwhile investment wise. Making sure that I prioritize kind of my bullshit meter essentially of detecting whether something is useful long term or not. And then over time, it became okay understanding on the operational side. What does it mean to actually run a Bitcoin VC? What does it mean to run a VC in general? What does it mean to create ecosystems from scratch? What does it mean to kind of erect pipelines? What is the interview between that and the development space? So I've been fortunate enough to be at different points and kind of the or should I say different parts of the ecosystem that allow me kind of a unique viewpoint into the whole space from a holistic standpoint in the sense that I'm more of all the things happening in developments, development ecosystem as well as on the entrepreneurial side and the the VC space. So combining those 2 over time has been 1, making sure I sharpen my skills on the dev side, being able to call that on the technical side. 2, engaging with developers constantly to ensure that all the folks that are building are informed and building for things that people are seeing both on the ground as well as on the development side. Then on the VC side, it's a case of being able to immediately pick out between whether something has a good business case or not, whether there's some more growth to be to be had really, which is why over time is when I kind of increased some of the capacity that I had at Recursive because essentially I was just a CTO at Recursive and then eventually had to step into the CRL when I felt comfortable enough and in my abilities to kinda lead the the project itself. So that's essentially how I've kind of navigate the space in the last, I say, 5 years now. It feels like a decade plus so far, but that's just what happens with Bitcoin. It ages you tremendously.
[00:21:09] Unknown:
Well, I think it ages you with the wisdom because you're you're such a young, beautiful soul. And like I said, I'm just like, wow. I'm so impressed with you and everything you're doing. And, let's talk. Do you wanna talk about Volt? And is Volt a project of recursive, or is it an open source project? You wanna tell everybody about what's going on over
[00:21:29] Unknown:
there? So yeah. Definitely. And with Volt, it's very interesting. So started with a few conversations with Alex Godstein from the MRIs Foundation back in 2021. Mhmm. And a lot of a lot of the dynamics at the time was, again, we've we had the Bitcoin ban here in Nigeria, which essentially, we essentially made it which essentially prohibited, I'd say, the interaction between bank transfers and Bitcoin payments essentially. So a lot of a lot of the feature of the landscape was kind of put into question. So my thinking at the time was okay. We can start building for resilience right now to a point where when we do get to these government bans or maybe some of the policies that will come on the regulatory side that might disrupt the ecosystem. We do have fallbacks, especially on an open source level in terms of the code resilience, all that. So eventually, over time, it became a case where eventually got the grant from Alex to start work on this back in 2021.
And from 2021 to around, I say, 2023 has been honestly looking at exactly what the main pain points are because I wasn't about to start building and dictating to people things that I feel should be taken seriously in the space. So it was a case of, one, experimenting because I started the project like 3 times from scratch. So essentially forked, BlueWallet initially and then realized that wasn't gonna go anywhere. Then I started from scratch again, realized that wasn't gonna go anywhere. And then in 2023, that was like a year plus after understanding exactly what the main pain points are around UX, ensuring that things work with lightning from day 1, hiding a lot of that and obscuring some of the technical parts of what it means to run a Bitcoin wallet. And then it started from basically building the basics of what a wallet should be like. So around new technologies for even when it comes to self custody tools around, wallet descriptors all the way up to using Lightning, some of the bolt card stuff that we've seen, incredible work out of the PPC Pay Server team and and the general ecosystem they created out of that through the conferences and battle testing that. So a lot of that was okay by this year. Around this year, it was a case where I had the opportunity to launch it at the human rights, also Freedom Forum, which is obviously kinda like, what I say, a a full circle moment for me because it all started with HRF essentially with with the wallet. So for me, the on the wallet side, really, it's it's pretty straightforward.
We're seeing we wanna make sure that all this building that we're seeing are going to come out of the continent. A lot of that is going to start happening. So for me, it was a case of saying, okay, here's a wallet that I feel based on all the interactions I've had with developers and entrepreneurs that would serve as kind of a good fallback and kind of a reference point for what it means to build a good Bitcoin wallet. And eventually having that be a case where African builders band together to build this wallet for everyone else that wants that same level of resiliency around the world. So essentially my gift and kind of a way for me to see the ecosystem to start building along the lines of ensuring resilience is kept at that level of building, as well as making sure that we do have projects that other folks can look on to to understand exactly what we mean by Africans are going to start building for the Bitcoin space and going to lead at that building. So for me, it was a case of just putting my essentially my quote unquote skills both as a designer as well as a builder to to the test and also kind of seeding that to see what happens. So it's been cool. The reception has been very interesting to see other developers from the B Trust pipeline also helping out now with pull requests and things like that. And that's generally the plan for it to remain open source and ensure that people will bind together to build for it. And we'll see what happens moving forward in terms of what that looks like, whether that gets flipped out into a venture or not. It's it's one of those things where the kind of the community will see and and decide essentially.
[00:25:00] Unknown:
And so is it so just with obviously, we've got and congratulations. 3 times, that's a lot. I know a lot of people might quit after 1 or 2. They're like, oh, forget it. And then you're obviously tenacious and saw this through. And so, you know, there's obviously lots and lots of Bitcoin wallets out there. Why do we need to keep building more Bitcoin wallets? You know? And, like, is there anything out there that is ubiquitous in all the countries that's anybody can use, or are we constantly looking at limitations from each country and regulations and Apple Store and la la la? Like, what are the what are the like, are you aiming to hopefully have a ubiquitous wallet, or is that even a possibility in the way that our world is currently?
[00:25:44] Unknown:
So I'll say a few things. Like so thinking about the general space, specifically contrasting Bitcoin with the wider, let's say, Fintech or traditional space of building products and services. One of the main differences between the two is there is a tendency for kind of monopolizing the set of tools that people use on the level of being ubiquitous like you mentioned. But that's in the general Internet space where the incentives are essentially to lock in users and then monetize or grow based on that user base that you've accumulated. But the Bitcoin space and specifically with Master as well, pairing that those 2, the incentives are the opposite.
Really for you to win out long term, it's a case of ensuring that your products and services are the most interoperable, provide the best UX and kind of compete on the level of providing the best case, the best experience essentially for Bitcoiners. So I feel it's not yes, in the traditional markets or development spaces, it makes sense to kinda wonder why we need more x or more specific, you know, products and services. But in the Bitcoin space, you likely keep seeing a lot of these things. And what wins out actually is a case where you have something that's highly interoperable, leverages all the mature tools, and even leaning into some of the things that need to get mature that people would need to use. So I feel with regards to Vault and maybe other projects that I'll likely probably see moving forward, the idea is to mimic a lot of those value propositions that people are currently exploring or should be explored, putting all these safety mechanisms to a point where, again, we might not reach ubiquity with Vault, but I want to make sure it's at a stage where it is kind of, like I said, a reference point for a lot of people in terms of what should be built and what folks could use on the daily because again, no one's gonna bring out a new wallet that is gonna be the only wallet that Bitcoiners use. A lot of Bitcoiners that you, I'm sure, have interacted with and even yourself have a ton of wallets. So a lot of things that went out is, again, if you ask yourself, why do I use this specific wallet more than the others? It has to do with both the UX, how that ties into your life in terms of providing value, are you able to move volumes through that? Is it a case where it's a savings angle? Is it more secure than the others? So definitely different use cases for different wallets. But I feel with something like Volt Vault on and make sure it focuses in on the most pertinent use cases so that it becomes a daily driver for a lot of Bitcoiners and not necessarily the only wallet that they're gonna use because I feel that's unrealistic.
[00:28:03] Unknown:
I get it. Yeah. That makes sense. I know we all wanna test all the wallets and certainly use them for different purposes, you know, hot wallets, cold wallets, and deep deep storage, all that. Exactly. So is there anything that you've run across on this journey that you're just like, we haven't been able to solve for this issue yet in any of the wallets, in any of the, you know, like, customers wanting something and some kind of feature functionality that is just a big stuck point? I'd just be curious.
[00:28:35] Unknown:
I mean, there are a couple. I I think the ones that are still gonna be necessary moving forward, especially given the dynamics I've seen on on the continent here in Africa has been around focusing in on on and off ramping specifically with no KYC PTP tools. Like, the the main challenge we've had is and it's kind of also an opportunity. Obviously, now, Binance virtually doesn't exist on especially in place like Nigeria with the the narrow pair essentially being, taken out because of the pressure from the government and things like that. So there is a huge opportunity for players that are both in Africa as well as outside of Africa to service that market of PTP that has a tremendous amount of volume, which, you know, we lead globally. So I feel if we're able to capture a good amount of that through NoQIC P2P Reels, then we can't afford to find that fundamental level of liquidity provision where we're not necessarily locking them into some of the walled gardens or some of the custodial services that could result in, you know, locked liquidity, which doesn't help with any sort of commerce or markets in general. So I wanna make sure that we have the opportunity for people that are coming in and kind of engaging with the Bitcoin ecosystem to have that level of unbounded liquidity. Obviously not ensuring that we have, you know, tools in place to kind of mitigate some of the folks that are doing the fairest activities, but at the same time, ensuring that the main priority is on providing services that maximize both free will as well as kind of the general privacy people maintaining their privacy and kind of their autonomy in the space and not just dictating down. So I see that a lot of that has to do with, yeah, building around our QIC P2P bridges. I think if we're able to solve that both for onramping and offramping, a lot of the other work will kind of just be a natural downstream from some of those efforts. So, we'll see what that happens and then building resilience around some of the tools that we're building that, let me choose my words carefully so I don't reveal things.
But essentially ensuring that some products are focusing on, again, that resiliency that matches the level that we need at the continent, ensuring that people can't just ban some of the tools that we're building. And it would become just as hard of a way to ban it as, let's say, banning the entirety of maybe the commercial markets in Africa. So making that entrenched to the point where it can actually have a future and a chance to actually still be around in a decade plus.
[00:30:47] Unknown:
And is that, like, something that's in the form of a protocol and not an app, or is that how we keep things safe sort of like how Noster and Bitcoin worked, that it's protocol it's not the platforms where they can get us?
[00:31:03] Unknown:
Yeah. Essentially, it has to be both. Because again, on the protocol side, we wanna make sure even at the Bitcoin core level, a lot of these guarantees and assurances are there from day 1. But then downstream from that, again, we also wanna make sure that some of the additional networks that we're creating on top of that, whether it's for liquidity provision, also mimic a lot of that resiliency. And then building off of that would be the tools and services also mimic those levels of resiliency. So we have, like, a full on end to end ecosystem where we're guaranteeing all these, assurances from day 1 through all the ways in which you can interact with Bitcoin. Because the major issue is gonna be not necessarily that is Bitcoin gonna be around in the next decade plus. We already know that's likely gonna be the case. The issue is gonna be, would it be the same access of Bitcoin that people right now have versus those that would be coming after us? I think that's where the main focus should be on the development side and ensuring that even people in the future have a way better experience of Bitcoin and a lot more of the guarantees from day 1 than we currently do. Yeah. It's definitely intimidating when you think about all the regulations in different places. Right? And you think of here in the States with the 6102,
[00:32:04] Unknown:
now we've got the, I think it's the CFTC, the commodities. They're trying to turn Bitcoin into commodity and then there's gonna be some whole shit show. So I'm not totally up on all of this, you know, regulation stuff, but I know it's pretty intimidating to think if you're stacking for a while and you're like, hey, this is gonna be my future, and then the government can come in and say, nope. You need to go turn all your Bitcoin into us and we're gonna give you some paper Bitcoin, which is worthless. And so it's super important for all of us to think about, you know, how to be adversarial in our development and adversarial in thinking, you know, they're not looking out for us. They're looking out for the survival of themselves, which is this beast kraken that I call it.
And then, you know, it just wants to keep feeding itself. So it's like, do do people, in Nigeria or anywhere where you're working, like, do they understand, like, how important this is, or do they think, like, no. No. No. I wanna go to my trusted third party bank or whatever. Like, are they starting do they catch on? Because here, people still don't get it. I mean, it's, like, 99.9% of the people you talk about why you need decentralization and why self custody is important and not having this 3rd party. People are just they're so brainwashed into the system.
You know, it's difficult to really help them understand that, like, no. Like, you need to cover your booty, you know, because this could really happen at some point, be especially with currency collapses everywhere on the horizon. Certainly.
[00:33:39] Unknown:
Certainly. And I think, yeah, a lot of that is so, honestly, a lot of the work has been done and has continued to be done essentially by governments in in Africa for us when it comes to not just evangelizing, but kind of providing case studies for people to look at. Because if you look at the general trajectory of even a country like Nigeria, with all the bonds that have happened and all the currency issues, the financial issues, obviously with the devaluation of the currency, the multiple instances that we had at the Nara, kind of the issues we had with cash the cash crunch with the USD and all of that. I think one thing I would say is that I don't think we would need a large majority of the population to understand every single thing that has to do with what are the main values that Bitcoin does provide. I think the best case scenario that I've seen has worked so far has been to kinda show them practically what that means. So what I mean specifically is juxtaposing the realities that they have currently with using whether it's traditional financial tools like the Narrow or well, virtually, no one uses the e Narrow. I was gonna cite that, but, I digress. So using all those tools and also the alternatives that people profess are that exist for for Bitcoin and then contrasting that with what it what the experience is when you do use Bitcoin specifically the correct way. So even if it's a case where someone has experience using Bitcoin and it's been a case where they've been doing it maybe through custodial services that have gone bust, contrasting and going, okay. Yes. That was Bitcoin, but that is not exactly the most ideal version of Bitcoin you could use. Here are some more practical tools you could use that actually do guarantee, safeguarding your assets essentially long term. So I feel the the orange pilling quote, unquote essentially is more around constantly building these practical tools for people to experiment with and constantly highlighting case studies that we will continue to see and have seen in the past that have either scammed people or maybe people don't necessarily understand what it means to why okay. What the benefit is to have maybe private tools or no KYC P2P bridges and then highlighting, you know, government seizures of money or even when it comes to a case where maybe you're censored to the point where money becomes censored as well and how Bitcoin protects against that. So once you have a lot of these tools that are people can experiment with, naturally become the case where they do the learning themselves. Because the truth about like orange billing is it's a two way street. It's not a case where we just present all these magical things that Bitcoin does. It's a case where people are aware of these things through experimentation, and then they get the guarantees that we've been talking about, and then the conviction takes place, and then that's when the actual orange billing takes place. And then down the line, because a lot of people tend to say, you know, when to get orange billed. A lot of it, if we look at the stories tend to be retroactive and retrospective and not necessarily a case where, oh, you know, January 15th was when I was orange peeled. So a lot of that has to do with the personal convictions that they've had that kind of help them navigate through the space because it is it is a journey at the end of day for all of us. So I see that's kind of how I think a lot of the things will go moving forward and kind of the things that we've seen. And again, it's one of those things where we wanna make sure that we're building for a lot of that resiliency from day 1 because if that doesn't exist, then we could talk all we want as long as people aren't able to actually use it in the way that we claim people can use it, then nothing's gonna move forward.
[00:36:45] Unknown:
And do you find, obviously, you know, the number one thing, you know, entrepreneurs talk about is, like, you know, you need to talk your customer. Talk to your customer. Talk to your customer. You know, and really understand what's working, what's not, what this journey is, did they have the transformation that you're promising them, what didn't happen, how does it get better. I mean, I I think that's such an important, you know our two ears are more important than our one mouth
[00:37:10] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:37:11] Unknown:
Of and listening to everybody. Let's talk about, let's talk about what's on the horizon for you, like, with are you gonna be at any events that I should come and see you? Are you going to the ABC? Can I I've I've just had, Marcel on yesterday, so I was like, oh my god? I gotta get my butt over. That's my bucket list.
[00:37:32] Unknown:
Definitely. No, Sam. I'm gonna think you're gonna make it to Afro Bitcoin. It's gonna be in Nairobi this time. It's actually my first time in Nairobi, so it'll be interesting to see all the Bitcoiners I've been in touch with, for the last couple of years that are there. And obviously given the situation now in Kenya, it's very important for a lot of us in Africa really to look onto the brave, obviously the the brave folks, the Bitcoiners that are down there and kind of what the pain points are on their end, kind of learn from the orange peeling they've done so far, as well as some of the ways in which people are using Bitcoin that are maybe we're missing out here in West Africa and other parts. So I think it's gonna be an interesting learning experience. I think a lot of people enjoy both the general vibe of the ecosystem here. I always say it's one of those which is very, very vibrant and has a lot of very, very intelligent deep thinkers. So a lot of people definitely leave with a lot of nuggets. And the other event I'll definitely be making is Riga. So Baltekani Badri that's in, I think, about a month in August. So if folks haven't been to Riga, then I don't know what the hell they're doing.
[00:38:30] Unknown:
Don't say that. I wanna I I have so much FOMO. You have no idea. My daughter's starting in college, and I'm like, I can't go in anywhere Oh, no. Next year, hopefully. Hopefully, next year. Unless she kicks me out. She's like, mom, I don't go away. I don't want your help. Like, if she does that, I mean, I doubt she's going to because I mean, who knows? Maybe she will, but it's right around that time. But, yeah, that's a super FOMO. Are you guys gonna be doing some hackathons there?
[00:38:56] Unknown:
Yeah. We're we're definitely gonna we're looking at having another hackathon for Afro Bitcoin. So, yeah, we'll definitely keep keep folks in the loop with regards to how that, transpires, the theme, things like that, and how to register and be involved. And there'll be will there also be hackathons in Riga? Of not that I'm aware of, but another thing that might interest a lot of people is that Nostraiga is happening there. So for a lot of folks that are interested in Nostra development and kind of the the ecosystem there is gonna be paired with the general OG Bitcoin conference vibe that Baltic Honey Badger traditionally has had.
[00:39:29] Unknown:
That's gonna be so amazing. What have you seen in the nostril space, if anything, that is just, like, leaping forward? You know? And because, obviously, we're coming up Like, I've just noticed I'm on, you know, Twitter, and I was doing a bunch of different posts and looked at some analytics, and everything this month has been down about 70% reach. And I've been a little snarky lately on Twitter, but, nothing like, the stuff that I see other people posting that are getting millions of follows and likes and reach and all this, I'm just like, I'm not posting anything near that snarky and cursing and the whole thing. And I'm just like you know? So it's frustrating, and I know that all you know, here in states and all out of the place in the world, there's a lot of elections this year.
So I feel like things are getting suppressed. You know? Our voices are definitely getting censored, and there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes with the algorithms. Like, have you seen anything with Noster that is, you know, gonna start pulling ahead so that we can get people using it and not feeling like, what's an end pub and it all that stuff, you know, that is a little weird at first?
[00:40:34] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, a a lot is likely gonna help contribute to, again, drawing in that ubiquity for folks to kinda think, okay, social media, I think, Nostar is one of the the options and kinda the general milieu that we have. But I think the one thing I've been interested in seeing kind of evolve over time has been, again, the value for value use case really with Master, which is allowing for a mechanism to actually reward people that provide something you find of value, even when it just comes to zapping in general. I still think that's hugely underrated with the general public not being aware of that mechanism generally for social interaction. So I feel a lot of what we'll likely see in terms of the onboarding will likely be as a result of that share use case. And what that'll look like is, again, a lot of the tools, one of the benefits of DynoSphere space obviously move really fast, which is very helpful for quickly testing out things that do work and things that don't work and understanding and how people, receive and perceive a lot of these changes. As again, there are no walled gardens. So it's a case where a lot of folks that even currently do use an All Star are not just using one primary client. It's a case where they're using it through a variety of mechanisms, different, essentially tools and services. So it'll be a case where the more well built the tools get, the the more it becomes more of a good argument really for people that are considering an alternative to x or maybe some of the traditional social media that they find toxic, for example. And again, by the very fact that we have this mechanism for actually rewarding things that people find out value on social media, I feel is gonna also pairing that with a lack of censorship to begin with since it is a protocol. Those 2, I think, combined will likely maximize kind of the the general way people feel social media should be, which is a person navigating all these sources of information for themselves and seeding out and starting out what the signals are. And then obviously having tools in place to actually maximize that effort to others. A case where you have your own specific algos that cater to maybe maximizing certain content that you deem signal and things like that. But just generally ensuring that we're providing for individuals to maximize all the alternative that they have and opportunities to see all sides of whatever tail it is that they're looking at or angle. That way, we don't have people who are being told exactly how to think or providing, you know, biased biased standpoint. So striving to essentially be objectively biased and kind of how we see through information around that. So I think that's how Nostar would likely take off and I feel the more people that come into Nostr that are not in the Bitcoin space, the better for Nostr in general. Because they don't want a case where it's seen as just a a Twitter for Bitcoiners, essentially. We wanna make sure that people understand that this is a novel social media experience for the the whole world.
[00:43:09] Unknown:
Well, I think to, you know, getting in different types of creators and educators and people who, you know, have different ways that they're earning income, you know, through plays or through their education that they're up to. And so, you know, we're doing this thing with, the Bitcoin or Hub, and we're gonna have you know, it's gonna be a whole value for value education model. And so we want people to be able to just if they wanna make a, you know, a a value for value exchange with the creators, great. If not, the content's there, no big deal. And so for us as, you know, any type of a creator, you know, whether it's music, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a course, whether it's a blog, whether it's, you know, anything, a meme, You know, it's really fun for all of us to do this for you know, because we're passionate, but it's also important that, you know, we earn a living so that we can, you know, get milk for our children.
And so I think retraining ourselves as consumers and as creators is very, very important because we're so used to getting everything for free because we're the product, obviously, from the advertisement perspective. This is something I think is a unique challenge, you know. And you and I had talked about the Super Wallet concept, which I started white boarding yesterday. You'll be proud of me. I'll share with you when I get it when I get round 1 done. But but that's that's something that I was even thinking just from that super wallet mindset of having that, you know, your content wallet. That could go as just a a segment of all the other types of wallets that are out there. It doesn't even have to be its own stand alone thing. It could just be it could go in the the Volt Wallet. It can go into Stripe. It could go into anything so that, okay. Here's my content and my lightning budget that's gonna be a little, you know, module that's in all of these things. And so so I think that could be something in it. I don't know. That just came to me when when you were talking. But, but I think it you know, for all of us to, like, be able to have that mindset of, like, I love supporting my creators or my developers. You know? And so I think this will be a fun project to kinda to play with. But do you feel like like is there any plat or any, client side stuff that's out there that is geared for education using Noster, like, from a course perspective, you know, where it's like, here you you know, it's one thing to have, like, a blog post or, like, 5 blog posts in a row and you can say, cool, this is section 1 through 5, blah, blah.
Have you seen anything being built on that for education?
[00:45:42] Unknown:
Not a lot. But I I would say, like, there there are a couple of things that are emerging that I think are very relevant to kind of how that would play out and to the extent that we see that happen or not is, again, one is Geyser, I think has been very interesting to see because one of the main issues we've had, or at least I've kind of seen and folks have outlined is the Bitcoin space has to for it to get to a point where it's growing is when we start to think about building tools and services that are not just for other Bitcoiners, because there's only so many Bitcoiners that we could provide tools and services for Mhmm. To the point where it becomes so saturated that there's no more growth in terms of folks actually getting involved, which obviously the majority of people actually need Bitcoin or non Bitcoiners right now if we're looking at it from that standpoint. So I feel a lot of the efforts around doing things that Geyser had been able to facilitate when it comes to just allowing for money flows to happen in places that don't necessarily have that access with traditional, fundraising mechanisms is I feel gonna be very, very powerful and would likely last will likely leave a lasting impact in terms of how people perceive the value proposition of Bitcoin overall to humanity.
Because I feel if we get to that stage where people are using tools built by Bitcoiners without necessarily being Bitcoiners, then that is the point where we understand, you know, the proverbial Bitcoin is now mainstream. I feel that's when we reach that mainstream level of both adoption as well as sentiment that people have. And then I see in terms of how that plays into education is, one, we already have mechanism now, like, you know, guys are where people can actually post their educational efforts to get funded. But a lot of funding has also come into the space that wasn't there 5 years ago through other initiatives, whether it's B Trust or OpenSci, for example, especially with the the education, grant section that OpenSci recently announced. I think a lot of that is gonna help catalyze given the fact that a lot of the activity also on the funding side has been through OpenSci. So it's cool to see. Obviously, I'm getting into the education ecosystem. I feel they're likely gonna help propel a lot of these projects that you're talking about that maybe don't exist right now that could exist. But at least those are kind of the trends I'm seeing that I feel will be really, really important and will be a concomitant part essentially to how we not only scale out this ecosystem, but provide that sort of awareness to non Bitcoiners that, hey, we're not just building and it's an echo chamber, it's actual value that we feel that people should get access to. And these are the ways in which you can get access to. And that's the only way we can know whether we're just talking to ourselves about things that don't necessarily exist as use cases or if they're actually useful things to the rest of the world.
[00:48:07] Unknown:
Totally. And I think, again, like, coming back to getting more people outside of the Bitcoin, you know, space into Bitcoin, it's like, again, coming to the creators, educators, anybody out there who you know, a $100 a month, $500 a month makes a difference. You know? And so if you're getting zaps instead of just like, okay. I get a dollar for every 1,000 plays on, you know, Spotify if I'm a musician, if you're getting a $100 because you're building that fan base through Nostra, it's such a game changer. And so to consider all of the 99% of creators out there who aren't with big labels, who don't have giant marketing budgets, who don't have agents, you know, so if they understand think about the millions and millions of, you know, creators out there and and artists and coaches and, you know, people out there in that space and the wellness community, like an extra 100, $500,000 a month and you're providing direct value to your audience and you're getting that feedback knowing like, Wow, Abu Bakar keeps, you know, zapping me on this kind of a post. This is great. I know that he really likes this stuff. So I'm gonna, you know, send him a big thank you. You don't know who's listening to your content on these big channels, you know, whether it's Tidal or Spotify or whatever.
I I think it's super like, that to me, once that domino can get knocked over and we can really start helping these folks, you know, these millions and millions of, creatives out there, like, they're gonna be like, well, why am I not doing this? Heck, yeah. This is cool. This is easy. I can do these splits. I can, you know, get my producer paid. I get myself paid. And then, wow, what a neat way for the system to grow instead of just being in these other walled gardens of the record labels or of the central, you know, distribution channels like, you know, Amazon and Apple and whatnot. So I think it's gonna be you know, value for value is still really small, and it doesn't mean it's your main source of revenue as a creative, or an educator, but it sure does help with, you know, a little bit more each month perhaps, you know, if we could get this out there. So that's gonna be one of I mean, it is one of my goals is to help, you know, creatives understand how Bitcoin can get into their ecosystem and then not having to wait for 90 to a 180 days to get your hay outs.
You know? So it's like, nope. Look. You got it instantly today because someone's listening to your stuff today. Or so I think, you know, what Wave Lake and those guys are doing, there's there's so many great projects out there, and I I just it's gonna be fun to keep seeing how these artists go go from 0 to hopefully more than 0 in the Bitcoin world.
[00:50:55] Unknown:
A 100%. A 100%. And I think one of the things that'll be interesting to see is seeping through the way, or at least seeing how the evolution happens with regards to artists and content creators and how they engage with their their fan base through, you know, zapping and things like that. Because again, there is, there are a variety of ways you can get high signal in terms of how people are receiving your content. And there's no better way really than getting zapped and knowing that, okay, that person did find it useful. So you actually have meaningful metrics and not just, you know, plays or listens, which obviously can be gamed. It's a case where if someone did send you money, then it's a case where they definitely like that type of content. So again, like you said, it's we're not at a stage where it can form the main source of income, but the very fact that that mechanism exists and the fact that people are already using it with the small ecosystem that we have, I think it's a huge indicator that there is not only a large opportunity here, but I think is one of those things where we've been looking at from a paradigm shift perspective that could actually make or break the the future of what it means to be a content creator and how people can monetize by themselves of their own volition and not necessarily being the product.
[00:52:00] Unknown:
Totally. I mean, I think, like, why doesn't Spotify and all of these big, companies, like, just have an opportunity for zapping your artists? Like, think about it. If you're a distributor, right, your goal is to have the best content out there and the best products and the best, you know, things for your audience who are paying these, you know, monthly subscriptions. So, you know, you knowing that you're only able to pay a little bit per play, you know, to these new artists, wouldn't it make sense from a business standpoint if you knew, like, it doesn't cost you a penny at all? You still get your subscription model, and then you add this layer of zapping into your platform, I mean, holy cow. That would be great because then now the artists are getting, you know, a little bit of supplementation. So guess what? Now they can actually make more content instead of having to go flip burgers at McDonald's and then hopefully get a new song out on, you know, their their spare time.
So it's such a no brainer to me. Like, why wouldn't they wanna implement, here you go. Just add a a little zap button and there you go. They've got the wallet, whatever. Take 5% if you really think you need to make money to Spotify on your artist, but, like, give it to the artist. You know? So I don't know. I'd be I'd love to see if if like, why is Jack not doing this on title? Like, that would be something
[00:53:22] Unknown:
come on, Jack. Where are you, brother? Who knows? We don't like it. Conversations are happening.
[00:53:27] Unknown:
Like, I wanna see this. You know? And and that would be amazing if if that could start happening for the creators. You know? Anyways, I'm just rambling on. Let's I I wanna just talk really quick, if you have time, about you know, you and I have had a couple of really nice deep conversations about our spiritual journey and about some personal growth that we've gone through. And I would love to ask you about, you know, what's been your personal growth transformation before and after becoming a Bitcoiner?
[00:53:58] Unknown:
That's I mean, a lot a lot has definitely changed, like, in terms of both my outlook on life, the priorities I have in my life as well, and how I assess priorities moving forward, how I kinda critique myself. Obviously, that self love too is one of those things where I'm definitely at a point where I'm I'm a lot more mature in terms of handling, things that get thrown out, the adversities of life and things like that, and especially welcoming adversity in general. I think a lot of that spiritual growth has mimicked, obviously, my own personal growth through, you know, Islam, and a lot of that has been really around for folks that are familiar with stoic philosophy, essentially, where we're looking at the things that you can control within within your realm of control and not necessarily hanging on to things that are outside of your control because those are one of the primary sources of anxiety to begin with. And just being comfortable with who you are as a person and knowing that you're not one thing at a specific point in time, but you have essentially a set of ideals that you'd like to move forward and progress towards. And that becomes like some sort of the foundation for your identity in the sense that you're always trying to strive for. Those ideals are not necessarily a case where you feel this is who you are, you can't change or you can't grow because then that's where people get into the trap of, you know, getting into abusive relationships or even being abusive to themselves, which is like the worst relationship you could possibly have. So again, having for that capacity for growth, understanding that not having pride is the only way in which you could actually grow because if you're unable to take in things outside or handle situations on the adversary there on in terms of adversity, there's really no way for you to kind of process that and reflect, especially which is something that's seldom done in a lot of the in the world currently. So I feel Yeah. That before Bitcoin, I was definitely just, Yeah. I was definitely just a stereotypical kid, you know, just different priorities, music, games, all that kind of stuff. And then over the course of the last couple of years, given all the opportunities I've had and I've been blessed with, I feel it has definitely changed the way I understand and kind of even relate to people. Like, I was a lot more, I say, maybe louder than I am now currently. And over time, you start to realize that the the best case scenario you could could have really is to to learn rather than just speak. So a lot of my interactions have definitely changed with folks that I previously were friends with or continue to be friends with. And, yeah, it's definitely been one of those things where striving for a healthy version of myself, I've seen has also benefited folks that I actually care about that are close to me in my life. In terms of how I engage with them, I also critique them.
I provide them with, you know, the empathy that's necessary for them to also grow. And that also helps with my own accountability in terms of, you know, mutual exchange of love and things like that. So I say that in a nutshell, that's kind of how it shifted and kind of changed over the years. And definitely glad that I went through this progression. It could have easily just taken me 40 years to figure that out. Probably even die without figuring a lot of these things that I've been forced to contend with over the last couple of years. But again, it's also one of those things that know, the space is so small that folks don't really care about your age coming in, and it's only the only concern that a lot of people have is, you know, the value that you provide. And that's why over time, I've kind of just found it a lot easier to optimize that as opposed to just, you know, being the the young guy doing a lot of things. So that's definitely another thing that has been very, very useful.
[00:57:13] Unknown:
That's amazing. And and do you feel like this space I mean, I feel like I've met so many high signal, high quality people, especially men, like, you know and I'm comparing, you know, our our ecosystem and our ethos, like, with other folks out there in the world, whether they're corrupt, whether they're just, you know, living kind of, you know, type lives. You know? I used to be an MPC. Totally don't I'm not acting like I'm somebody special here, but it's like once you get Bitcoin in your blood, in in your system, in your whole, everything starts to shift. You know? And and I feel like, you know, there's so many wonderful men who embrace, you know, the typical not typical, but, you know, a traditional model of what a man is, you know, and the model of being masculine. And, you know, and it's not about, oh, power over clobber women and pull them by their hair.
But it's really about that personal responsibility. It's about integrity. It's about what you said, showing up with value, and how are you creating, the world around you to be a safer, better, more prosperous place? Like, do you find that you're, you know, encountering a lot more of those people in the Bitcoin space and the people are trans you know, transforming as they come in, you know, into that space, or do you think people who are already kind of in that masculine vibe are naturally gravitating towards Bitcoin? I don't know if that's a that's a long ass question.
[00:58:45] Unknown:
No. No. No. It is. It's it's good to have the have it all painted out because I I think it's the latter, to be honest with you. I found that, at least, you know, based on the my life experiences in general is for a lot of people that are principled and actually have, like, a high level of, you know, self worth, really low ego, very driven, very, very high value. And that standpoint is they tend to also constantly accumulate other other values essentially over time that maximize those. So I think naturally, it makes sense to me that a lot of the Bitcoiners that we see tend to be folks that are already at that stage in their life where they're looking to continue to align themselves with things that maximize things that they value long term in terms of being principled, high value, all of that. And I think it's not a case where it's necessarily Bitcoin itself that causes that change. I think, obviously, for any sort of meaningful change to happen to any any anybody really requires that inner self reflection and that acceptance really of both the realities on the ground as well as things that you should be orienting yourself towards. So it makes a lot of sense that with all the things that are happening in the world right now, there are very, very few things that you could actually orient yourself towards that maximize that sort of, a sort of level of conscientiousness or understanding, you know, being virtuous and things like that. And Bitcoin just happens to be one of those things. And, obviously, there is the spiritual angle I mentioned too, like, with orienting yourself towards god, something outside of yourself subjecting your ego, ensuring that that is now a mechanism for you to drive for self growth as opposed to kind of growth within the compartment of essentially yourself. So now you have unbounded growth essentially, which is something that should be useful. So I'd say, yeah, that's definitely how I see it, and I think we'll likely continue to see that, and I hope it continues to be the case because that's one telltale sign of whether we've essentially done the work that we should be doing in the Bitcoin spaces.
And then if we still have folks that are that principled driving at least the ecosystem on a meaningful level or not. And I think that's gonna be even more important than just building, to be honest, because the most important thing is the the folks that are in the space vis a vis the some of the products because they go hand in hand in terms of maintaining the stability.
[01:00:55] Unknown:
Yeah. It definitely, it's about the people and, obviously, the people at large in the whole world that hopefully we can serve and get out of, this matrix that we are living in. It looks crazy. I I definitely feel, Bitcoin has transformed my heart and my soul in a way that is just, wow, and it keeps doing it. Every day, it's like a little onion layer. Like, woah, I didn't know that that was there, and that challenges me to come forward in a better way, you know, and not, just not settle for, like, a a lazy version of myself. You know? And and I think it's like and there's no you know, like, what I love about our commune you know, Bitcoiners and and this this freedom lovers community, it's like we hold each other up, but nobody's, like, shaming each other and really you know, it I think it's really powerful. Yes. There's a lot of snarky comments out there in this way, which is kind of kind of, you know, but and then, obviously, some of them are a little over the top. But I think for the most part, if we're out there, you know, putting our best foot forward, there's always gonna be a 100 people there ready to, like, be the wind beneath your wings and, like, give you encouragement and give you, care and enthusiasm. And they'll call you on bullshit too. It's still like, I don't think so, which is needed. We don't need a bunch of yes men out here.
[01:02:21] Unknown:
Exactly. You know, it definitely helps. And, again, even just navigating the space in general, it's been one of those life lessons that folks need to, you know, learn early on or at least be aware of to try and navigate the space effectively is understanding that intelligence in one domain specifically being a highly intelligent Bitcoin or whether it's on technical side or otherwise, does not translate into intelligence in other domains, whether it's like politics or things like that. I fear I've seen a lot of that transpire on X, especially with regards to people seeing certain folks that are highly intelligent on the Bitcoin side, but then see the most absurd things politically. And you can tell there's definitely a lot of to get to into the specifics, but definitely a level of maturity that's missing that hasn't been translated from some of the other disciplines and maturity that they have in other domains. So I think the earlier people get that out of the way, the better that they're able to navigate through the space because they're all human at the end of the day. No one's going to be perfect and have like pristine takes on every single thing. I'm learning to compartmentalize and dealing with people accordingly is going to be very, very valuable as you navigate the space because you're going to continue to have very interesting people come into the space, people from parts of the world that you have no idea culturally speaking and things like that. So understanding where everyone is coming from, not taking things to heart, ensuring that you're constantly being a force of good as opposed to contributing to all the chaos, I think it's kinda the the only way we can make sure that this space continues to exist and provide all the value that we feel it currently does and should in the future.
[01:03:49] Unknown:
I agree. And I I know I feel like we're always getting checked out there. And what you said too just about if somebody's got, you know, great skills and intelligence or capabilities in this area or this domain, it doesn't mean they're necessarily gonna be equal in all of the domains of life. You know? And a lot of times, some people will be like, oh, I'm so great at relationships and communication, but I'm not that great with technicals or numbers, you know, and vice versa. And so I think we have to always remember to just that we're all just little we're just humans. We're just human blobs walking around trying to figure it out.
Oh my gosh. What I just one last question. What would you say to somebody who, you know, is a young person and maybe, you know, doesn't have to be super young, but who's interested in getting involved in the space, you know, in in Africa? Like, what where would you tell them to go? How would you tell them to start, you know, reaching out, connecting with you or with BTrust and, you know, what's the best way for people to start, you know, dipping their toe in, especially if they're brand new?
[01:04:59] Unknown:
Yeah. A lot. And I think they're definitely coming at a good time, like, 5 years, 10 years back, there was virtually no resources that were accessible to people outside of the space. I think one of the main things is, you know, there's this thing by Jameson Law that he has where it's essentially kind of a treasure trove of a self paced, set of, you know, tools, services, and resources for people to kind of check out. So that'll be an just a wider resource that people should be aware of. And I see more specifically here in Africa, the touch points are very straightforward. My opinion would be if you're located in, let's say, a place like Nairobi or, maybe Lagos or Abuja or Kampala, already have bid devs essentially sponsored from, you know, Btrust where they could go and meet other Bitcoiners and start the journey from there.
Another one would be on the development side. If they're developers and they're looking to get their get into the space, the best case scenario for them is to reach out to Btruss Builders. Probably follow the x account. We post a lot, especially you sign up to the newsletter. A lot of great gems there about both the development and the ecosystem generally as well as, you know, information about the training that we do in general and, you know, grant applications, all of that. Another thing I would say is just generally following, you know, the activity in the space, following Bitcoiners that are here on the continent. I would say, you know, I write a Forbes column. That's one of the things that I prioritize, which is writing about, you know, and kind of and, I'd say maybe chronicling essentially all the developments happening here in Africa. So looking at that, being subscribed to a lot of these other newsletters, especially the Human Rights Foundation newsletter, I think that's very useful. They have a Bitcoin section that's always on point in terms of the main things being captured that are happening that are significant. So I say those are the main things, to be honest, and the most important is just don't feel like there's any such thing of, like, a stupid question that you're asking because all of us, there's no one that knew about Bitcoin except Satoshi, so we're all learning at the end of the day. And I think another thing would be, especially for the younger folks, like, it's very easy to get hung up on putting your identity as the young person, quote, unquote. But it's also very important to realize that being young is just a very, very small part of your life. So the more you start to attach yourself to that is when you tend to have a lot of the life crisis down the line of as you age, starting to realize that, okay, what does it mean to be me? And then you start to, you know, spiral off essentially with anxiety creeping in. So once you're able to understand that, yes, you're gonna be young for a small amount of time, so it means you should maximize a lot of things like orienting yourself principle wise and ensuring that virtue is something that you do prioritize, then it becomes very, very easy for you to transition into the bulk of your existence, which is being an older person. So I think, yeah, a lot of that has to do with accepting, you know, advice, critique, criticism, mentorship, and then gradually graduating into a mentorship role yourself as well because that helps reduce your ego subject yourself to also, you know, mutual kind of learning with the person that you're mentoring and things like that. So I see that's how I would give general advice with regards to navigating the space and ensuring that they don't get distracted. There's a lot that's happening in the space always.
Make sure that you're a person who constantly is striving to provide value and constantly learning and ensure that, yeah, you just don't get distracted. It's very, very easy to get distracted. A lot of things happening in the space. They'll always keep being a lot of things. And, yeah, once you once you have a lot of those things sorted out personally, it's going to be a lot easier for you to change the world once you've actually conquered the self.
[01:08:12] Unknown:
Yeah. And it's a never ending, dance of of the ego, the battle of the ego and the soul and the love and the heart. And I really love you said, to prioritize virtue in your life. I think that really, really powerful statement. A lot of us, especially, you know, if if you're hungry, if you're starving, if you don't know where your next meal's coming from, it's difficult sometimes. Like, you're just like, I need to get that that food in my child's mouth or in my mouth, and virtue isn't necessarily in the top of your list. It's it's satisfying that hunger. And so I think for so many of us to remember, like, why we need a sound money system and why it is imperative that we keep moving this forward as the most to me, it's the most important initiative on Earth because if we don't have that, then people aren't gonna be able to live virtuous lives because they're hungry, they're starving, they're afraid, they're in danger. And, you know, if this monetary system is completely broken and corrupt, which it is, it's gonna continue to perpetuate that, and we're never gonna be able to rise up to who we are all meant to be, which is children of God, you know, in these beautiful expressions of love and this beautiful expression of harmony and peace on Earth. And so, that's why I know I'm so passionate about learning myself and trying to help other people understand and connect the dots about why this this sound money is hopefully a tool for a more peaceful world. So, so, yeah, we're on we're on the same team. Yay.
I hope I get to see you in December. It's gonna be my bucket list dream to get over, over to ABC. And so Definitely. Definitely. Looking forward to it. Yeah. It's gonna be great. So, any final word, like, to tell everybody? We wanna make sure people who are listening are and aren't on the video, they go to follow you on x@ihate1999. You can also look at builders.btrust.tech if you guys are interested in checking out. I'm gonna have everything, of course, in the show notes and all the links so you can check out a Google car, over there. But, yeah, just any one final quickie closing.
[01:10:25] Unknown:
Let me let me channel my my inner motto, Dale. I'll say stay humble and stack sass and definitely prioritize virtue over the ego.
[01:10:35] Unknown:
Oh, I love it. That's gonna that'll be like a big theme in the this episode for sure. So I love it. Thanks so much for everybody who's tuning in right now and, for you for taking all this time to share your wisdom. And I know you keep doing this great work out there. I can't wait to to keep seeing what you're up to and supporting you. And, hopefully, I'll get to see you in, in December. So for everybody who's tuning in, thanks again. Peace, love, and warm aloha, and we'll catch you guys next time. And, until then, have a wonderful day. Alright. Thanks, everybody. Bye.
Introduction to Abu Bakr and His Mission
Abu Bakr's Role and Projects in Africa
Importance of Training Developers in Africa
Impact of Bitcoin Initiatives in Africa
Hackathons and Community Building
Investment Strategies: VC vs Open Source
Recursive Capital's Role in Africa
Challenges and Opportunities for Bitcoin VC in Africa
Combining Development and Venture Capital
Volt: A Bitcoin Wallet for Resilience
The Future of Bitcoin Wallets
Onboarding and Educating New Users
Nostr and the Future of Social Media
Value for Value: Supporting Creators
Personal Growth and Spiritual Journey
Advice for Newcomers in the Bitcoin Space
