In this episode of Digital Marketing Masters, host Matt Rose, despite battling a lost voice, welcomes IP attorney and AI consultant Corinne Koger to discuss the intricate relationship between artificial intelligence and intellectual property law in the United States. They delve into the nuances of copyright, patents, and trademarks, emphasizing the importance of human contribution in AI-generated content and the evolving legal landscape. Corinne shares insights on how businesses can protect their intellectual property and the significance of having clear policies regarding AI use.
The conversation also touches on the practical applications of AI in content creation and the ethical considerations surrounding data privacy and AI-generated content. Matt and Corinne explore the challenges of verifying AI-generated information and the importance of maintaining authenticity in digital content. They also discuss the implications of AI in various industries, including legal, marketing, and creative fields, highlighting the need for businesses to stay informed and proactive in managing their intellectual property rights.
[00:00:04]
Unknown:
Today on Digital Marketing Masters with your host, Matt Rouse, who has mostly lost his voice. IP, attorney Karin Coger, talks about artificial intelligence and intellectual property, rule, and copyright and the law in The United States.
[00:00:27] Unknown:
Everybody, welcome back to Digital Marketing Masters. My guest today is Karin Coger, and Karin is an IP attorney. Sorry. IP. I have to try and enunciate everything clearly because I had the flu last week, and I look kind of lost my voice. Corinne, how are you doing?
[00:00:47] Unknown:
Hello, everybody. Thank you so much, Matt, for having me onto the show. So, yes, definitely, I am an IP attorney. I enjoy it, but I'm also an AI artificial intelligence certified consultant. So I think that's how I landed here on this show. That's right. When I was at the marketing AI convention
[00:01:07] Unknown:
Mhmm. I think that the talk that had the most people go to it was the IP intellectual property and AI talk. Okay. And so when we connected, I was like, oh my gosh. People love this topic. And and I think it's also super valuable because not only do you not wanna get sued for things, but you also wanna know, you know, what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do. And I know we have international listeners, but I I think, obviously, we're gonna focus on US law since you're in The United States. Okay. But a lot of that carries over to other places. Right? So What do you think is kind of the blind spot that people have when it comes to AI and intellectual property?
[00:01:48] Unknown:
I think the blind spot is that people think they can hop on AI, whether it's Gemini, whether it's Copilot, whether it's Chad g GTP, insert their prompt. So ask the AI what they want, get the response, and then they want to register it either with the, I'm in The US. So the US copyright office or the United States patent and and trademark office. And both offices have different rules. So for instance, for patents right now, the rule is disclose the fact that you use AI to help you with your invention. However, AI is not one of the inventors.
Right. For copyrights, if you write a book, a magazine, record a video like this, the podcast, and you use AI, they, number one, want you to disclose it. But number two, they want a majority of what you are doing and what you're trying to register to be human based. So when I say majority, I think 51%. For trademarks, trademarks have always been difficult because a lot of people will hire a graphic designer, and they may just go on Google and, you know, take somebody else's trademark, and they give it to you. And you register it, and you find out it's somebody else's, you know, trademark. But with trademarks, you can trademark something you made with AI, but you should give something with some human value to it.
[00:03:29] Unknown:
Right. So I think on the, when you're talking about the majority written, something that I did when I was researching my book, Will AI Take My Job, is that it's completely human written, but I have three, like, takeaways at the end of each chapter, which actually use chat GBT to create the takeaways. Mhmm. And but I intentionally did that. Right? Because I wanted to show how AI can be used, you know, in in writing. But one of the actual original stumbling blocks I had was that when I first wrote it, the the I wrote the foreword was written by Chat GBT, and Amazon wouldn't allow my book to be published because it had too much AI content according to the rules. Mhmm. But by the time I had it finished editing and stuff and I was gonna publish it, they had released like, relaxed those rules. So then I was able to publish it. So it was Okay. It was interesting how the law was changing so quickly that, you know, in three months, it went from not allowed to publish to, you know, oh, now we're, using AI to put your book on Audible.
[00:04:34] Unknown:
Exactly. Like, I always say technology moves faster than the law. It takes a lot to change the law. So that's why they're having these initiatives or, you know, orders, you know, or something like that to determine what you're going to do. I always suggest to people if you're writing a book and you're using an LLM, put it through one of the websites that do the tech. Like, do you think, you know, this is based on AI? The other thing that I do, and I don't know if you've done this, Matt, is that you can train ChetGPT to think and talk like you. Right. And and that that is huge.
So the way that you view that is, first of all, you use it. Right? Right. Second of all, take transcripts of something like this, you know, a webinar, something you taught, get the transcript of it, upload it into chat GPC, and ask them, can you analyze the way I think I I speak and I I just do things. And then when you go into the personalization tab in the settings, you can copy and paste what they said. So therefore check GPT now talks more like you do, and it's not very
[00:05:58] Unknown:
check g GPT ish. That's right. I also found a good a good way that you can do that is you can create a document that has, like, these are examples of writing in my style that I like, and these are examples of things I don't want. Mhmm. Right? And you can just explicitly say what those are in the document and then upload it every time that you want it to do some writing, you know, maybe ideation for you or, you know, it's writing a blog post or a social post or something that you're gonna edit after. We always use human editing in our work, the agency.
We just we wanna put some eyeballs on it. You know? Sure. Just in case something weird happened. You know? And a lot of people are worried about about hallucination in systems, which the hallucination rate is now very, very low. Like, honestly, I would say it's lower than most of the, like, screw up level of most people. So but what we're looking for is if the AI lost the plot. You know? Right. So we want we asked it to write about x y z, and it wrote about x y a. Right. You know? And, yeah, and I'd kinda beard off and went down some weird rabbit hole that we didn't want it to kinda thing. Yeah. I've definitely seen that in The US. There have actually been similar cases about attorneys who submitted briefs to the
[00:07:19] Unknown:
court using AI, and they just made up cases. So Right. When they looked them up, they weren't there. And I did a report one time about madam CJ Walker. She was, like, the first African American billionaire in The US. And I put in information because I studied her. I was like, this doesn't sound right. You know? So you still have to check your AI. Now if you have companies like Lexus, they will tell you, alright. If you're doing AI through us, it's coming through Lexus. So, therefore, it is it's authentic, but I would say always check it. Yeah.
[00:07:58] Unknown:
I think a good kind of rule of thumb is the more important it is to be right, the more you need to check it. Yeah. So if it's if it's, you know, a diagnosis for a medical thing and the patient could be injured or killed. If it's not, you better have an MD check it. Right?
[00:08:16] Unknown:
If it's literally laughing at you because I have gotten, like I've gone to the doctor, got letter in the mail. The follow-up is, like, in a month. So I uploaded it. I was like, what does this mean?
[00:08:29] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of times, that's an excellent use for AI is just pasting and something and saying, what does this mean, or is this true? Right? And, you know, the, there's also there's a there's a really good study that was done. I don't remember who did it off the top of my head, but I remember Ethan Mollick was talking about it. And, essentially, it was the more you use the chat system, the more likely you are to believe it. Mhmm. And so what happens is over time, it gives you so many right answers that you just think all the answers are gonna be right.
[00:09:02] Unknown:
That's when something's gonna happen. Right? Yeah. That is true, especially when you personalize it. Like, when you get to that point where the system is talking to you, the way you talk, the way you trained it, you're automatically thinking like, okay. It's right. You know? Because they're talking like me, but you should definitely still check for authentication.
[00:09:24] Unknown:
Right. I really I I'd like to use, yeah, agents that are kind of trained where I've I've given them a personality and an image, you know, for who they are and stuff. And for me, it's a way to separate what the function of that kind of agent is. Mhmm. So if I'm gonna use one that is working with, like, writing Python code or something for me, you know, I have one that her name is is is Glinda, the Python coding agent woman. You know? And and then I have, like, Xing, the companion robot who is excellent at using computer use, like, if it's gonna go on a browser and fill out a form or something. Right? Right. And so I I have these little agent names and pictures to to kind of almost trick my brain into which one does which thing, like, which employee is this kind of thing. I like that. Which is kind of ironic since I wrote, you know, the book about if AI is gonna take your job. Then I have little AI employees, but mostly, they do my work. So, you know, nobody lost their job to my AI except me.
[00:10:37] Unknown:
Do you manage a local business or a biz with the service area?
[00:10:42] Unknown:
S and B Autopilot is the magic pill for your local business marketing. Get more calls, more clients,
[00:10:50] Unknown:
more patients, more buyers, more people finding you instead of your competitors. Check out sandbautopilot.ai for more details. Now back to the show.
[00:11:12] Unknown:
Well, I wanna ask this about image generators. I know that the law has recently kind of shifted in The United States around images. And I think probably the biggest topic is if somebody uses some images that they generated, do they own the copyright to the image or not? Nope. So
[00:11:32] Unknown:
I I tell people very simply, you trademark your brand, you copyright your content. If you did not create that content yourself, you do not own it. However, anybody can put circle c on whatever their content is. But there is definitely a difference between putting the circle c and actually registering it in the copyright office. So if you have a situation and you said, you know, I copyright this, somebody stole it from me, you can, like, kinda, like, retroactively apply for it with the copyright office because this is what happens when you see things that go viral, you know, real quick. You know, somebody has a great TikTok, and everybody's, you know, all excited about it. And it got, like, 1,000,000 views.
So the next day, five random people will try to register either trademarks or copyrights for whatever that creator said. Right. China is a first to file country. The United States is a first to use country. So, therefore, when they do that, you can combat it and say, this was my video or this was my post or it's I created it before it was
[00:12:55] Unknown:
registered. Yep. You have to I also Chris. Well, I was gonna say I have a, a client of ours who makes artwork that goes on products. And what they do a lot of times is they'll use an AI system to create parts of the artwork, and then they're usually illustrating over top of it. So it could be a background. It could be figures. It could be something, and then they're they're you know, kind of like the writing idea. Right? The majority is their illustration. Okay. So is that copyrightable in that case?
[00:13:29] Unknown:
It could be. So because they are giving their own work to that work. Yes. You can you can register it for the copyright with the copyright office. I think the main thing is just being honest with these agencies. Like, hey. You know, I use 30% generated AI and, you know, the 70% is what I do. I'm sure the copyright office is going through a whole bunch of changes right now because of, you know, because of AI and copyright. Right. Like, how do you check it? Like, there's there's That's right. So many checkers. So I'm sure that's what happened with you when you had your book on Amazon. You know, they scan it, and they will tell you, oh, we feel like this much was, you know,
[00:14:23] Unknown:
generated. Well, back then, it was voluntary reporting. But Yep. You know, the the AI checkers are an interesting thing because they tend to get used a lot in schools. Mhmm. And education institutions. And most of the studies find that they have a very high false positive rate, especially for people who don't have English as a first language Right. Which is obviously puts them in a difficult position. Mhmm. But I think and and, you know, you as an attorney would know better than me, but my suggestion is always to have a policy about it first before you start trying to, like, kick people out of school for use in AI and stuff. Or, you know, or your company or your organization should have an AI use policy, like a blanket policy to start with.
[00:15:08] Unknown:
And I absolutely had a case like that. So I had a school that I was representing. Somebody created something in the school based upon the school's rules. Yes. That was owned by the school, but it wasn't, I'm sorry. That's okay. By what belongs to the school and what belongs to the creator and what is AI.
[00:15:37] Unknown:
Yeah. That's a tough distinction, I think. I find, there's gonna be a lot of interesting IP stuff coming up. Like, a really good example is I have a photograph of kind of people sitting around a fire. Mhmm. And we used an AI to to kind of pan across the photograph and have the fire burning. Right? So now I've turned a photograph into a video. So does the original photographer own the rights to it, or do I own the rights to it to the video now?
[00:16:16] Unknown:
The original photographer owns the rights to that. If you want it to be yours, there needs to be a copyright transfer agreement. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we had permission to use it. I'm just Yeah. I'm you know, something that says that you have permission. Right? And then with that, when you talk to people that may be in the photograph, I always disclose in the in the contract, this may be altered by AI. However Oh, yeah. It will only be altered, quote unquote to make it better, not to change anything that's very distinctive, but just to make this better. So before you and I, you know, got on the recorded call, you know, we talked about umms, ooms. Yeah. So those are things that you take out. So let's say you have a video not a video, a picture, and there's somebody in the background that you don't want in that picture and you remove them. But the biggest thing is letting people know that you are using AI to do this.
[00:17:23] Unknown:
So you would suggest that if people have, like, model release contracts or something that they put AI editing into those contracts. Maybe my second last question, unless we have to follow it up a little bit. What do you think that, you know, for the average business owner, what can they do to kind of protect the intellectual property of their company and that, you know, maybe their employees or their agencies are creating for them?
[00:17:53] Unknown:
Okay. So what I find is the average business owner puts IP on the back burner, which they should not. IP should be on the front burner. So when you're coming up with a name for your company and your marketing materials, you should at least consult with the IP attorney to determine whether or not that name or that logo or that say is available. Right? And then you should work with them throughout this because what happens is people create content. And when I say content now, whether it's a t shirt, you know, whether it's a video, whether it's marketing material, whether you have a very special way that you onboard your clients and you put it in writing, all of that should be protected, you know, by IP.
And what happens is, again, a lot of people don't do it, and then they get a cease and desist letter. And in The US, if the petitioner or opposer filed for that copyright, they can sue, and it can win up to a hundred and $50,000. And they can send you cease and desist letters. Yeah. So
[00:19:13] Unknown:
Right. Yeah. That's obviously a problem. One thing, actually, that I also wanted to ask you that we kind of talked a little bit about before the show. You have mentioned about kind of anonymizing the information that you're putting into systems like ChatGPT because you don't want to, or maybe in your case, you know, you have confidentially confidentiality with clients, and and you're not allowed to send information. Oh. So does that work? Like, how are you kind of anonymizing the information you're using?
[00:19:47] Unknown:
It works for me very well, but I only use it in the IP space. So for instance, for me, if I'm working on a trademark client, I just don't put in, you know, the name of the trademark owner. Right? But in other practice areas, it could be different. So if you're working on a divorce case, you may not want to put that, you know, person into whatever whatever LLM you're using, but you just put the situation in Right. And use that and then ask for cases. Yeah. I think,
[00:20:26] Unknown:
it's interesting. The the attorney or the family law angle, you know, like a divorce attorney or something like that, because we used to do some advertising with a family law attorney who's who's retired now. But their first client that they had gotten since they hired us Mhmm. They asked them, how did you find out about us? And they said that they got ads for the family law attorney for a week before their spouse gave them papers for divorce. So the predictive advertising system had predicted that they were going to get divorced and started advertising to them in advance, which is both, I mean, good for the attorney to get the client, but also kind of frightening from a privacy standpoint.
So, you know, that's how you understand what information you want or don't want to give out online, you know, whether it's an LMM or a search engine or whatever. I have that situation. I went to a friend's house.
[00:21:22] Unknown:
The friend and I are social media friends on all platforms. Her cousin was there. We just talked. We did not exchange social me social media. The next day, she popped up in my Instagram. That's right. Okay. You were listening to me, Meta, aka Mark Zuckerberg,
[00:21:42] Unknown:
because how does she now show that? Or they have the location data on the phones being in the same place. Right?
[00:21:48] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:21:49] Unknown:
So, yeah, that kind of data is everywhere. So, you know, protect your data, people. I kinda feel like
[00:21:54] Unknown:
all the tech giants in all the government know everything about me. I I I've just submitted to that.
[00:22:01] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, there's oh, plus there's so many data leaks all the time that, you know, all your spending habits get Yeah. Released and things. And but there is you know, honestly, where I live, that's not the case yet because most people barely have good enough Internet that anybody could steal their data in the first place. You know? Or people live off grid and stuff. Oh. But it's still important to have an understanding of privacy and what information that you're giving away when you're using things. You know? Like, when you're using Instagram or using Facebook or the TikTok or whatever and you're using it for free, right, they're collecting the data. That's how they make the money. Right? These are data for advertising.
[00:22:43] Unknown:
Yep. Interrupt you for one second because I want to give an example. For right now, we're on StreamYard. So on the right, it says, we use cookies. So then there's a button, accept all cookies or customize cookies. I owe customized cookies. I only allow them to get the information that they need. The other cookies are usually, can we use you for advertising? Can we follow you for advertising? Most people just select accept all because they don't know what it is.
[00:23:15] Unknown:
Yeah. The advertising and marketing cookies are for retargeting systems. But, also, all that data gets sent to, but usually, both Meta and Google and Microsoft. So all of them. As someone who does advertising, I understand how these platforms work. I understand how the data collection works. You know, if you're using what I was gonna say is if you're using an AI for free, then your training data, everything you put into it is training data for them. Absolutely. But if you pay for it, you can opt out of being having your information being used as training data. That's correct. Can also delete things that you've put into it, you know, if they're no longer relevant or you don't want someone to find them or whatever. Right? So I think it's important to pay for the AI system Mhmm. Because it it keeps the it gives you the option to keep your data private.
Mhmm. And, also, it supports those systems with a model of revenue where they don't have to steal your data and give it to advertisers. Right? Right. Absolutely. I I pay for,
[00:24:20] Unknown:
the systems that I use. I suggest that everybody pay for them if you are in that situation. If you're just, like, a random person that's like, hey. I have cabbage chicken and a red pepper, you know, in my refrigerator or chat GPT. Can you give me a recipe? No big deal. Right. And and and I have done that. But if you if if you're using it for business, if you're using it for business that you don't want out there for everybody, I would suggest paying for it and electing not to allow them to use your data.
[00:24:57] Unknown:
Yeah. I saw or or I listened to a podcast on the, artificial intelligence podcast. Anyways, he was saying it's a slippery slope with the data. Right? What happens is it's, right now, it's it's what can I make out of cabbage and chicken? And next week, it's what should I do if my girlfriend's breaking up with me? Right? So it's a slippery slope, people. So just pay for it, get it over with, and, you know
[00:25:21] Unknown:
what's crazy is this I'm married right now, but people are literally using these LLMs for dating sites. They're they they will, like, upload the profile of the person and say to the LLM, what should I say to her? What should I say to him? So it's not even really the real person. It's just with the l o m, you know, decided that this was important. And that's a little scary.
[00:25:49] Unknown:
It is. And, honestly, if if I was gonna like, I'm a married person, but if I was gonna use a dating app, I would highlight my whole profile and paste it into chat GBT and say, how do you think I can approve this? Absolutely. I did that with LinkedIn. So
[00:26:05] Unknown:
it doesn't have to be a dating app, but I absolutely did that with LinkedIn and asked them to rewrite my LinkedIn profile.
[00:26:12] Unknown:
Yeah. And, I mean, I I honestly I have this kind of, like I'm I'm kind of two minds about a lot of stuff where I say, okay. Well, I'm gonna use AI to help me with these things, but these other things are things that I'm just gonna do myself. And and it's not like a line in the sand. Like, someday, maybe I'll use it to fix up my LinkedIn. But I enjoy writing. Right? So I'll I'll, you know, write on LinkedIn. And then but I gotta, like, write a blog for the forty seventh time about some product, you know, that a company has that we do work do work for. Mhmm. Maybe I don't wanna write about it. You know, this this maybe I'm not feeling it today. I'll go ahead and I'll say, give me 10 ideas. It'll give me those. I'll pick three of them. I'll say, let's explore these, put it into the research tool, get some stuff back. And I'll say, hey. You know what? Let's write about this blog, but let's take this angle on it. Let's have this kind of twist at the end or whatever, and then it comes out. And I'm like, there we go. Send her to the editor.
[00:27:08] Unknown:
I I do the same, and then I just put, like, a asterisk at bottom. Like, this was powered by chat.
[00:27:15] Unknown:
Just letting you know. Yeah. I use I don't wanna take it. You know? Yeah. If it's, like, something with my name on it, I'm gonna use an AI use disclosure. Mhmm. Right? Like, if it's a presentation or something, I'll say, all the background images in this presentation are made in MidJourney.
[00:27:31] Unknown:
How do you like new MidJourney?
[00:27:33] Unknown:
I love it. I use it every day. I used it today about eight times. Nice. But I also use Flex Ultra.
[00:27:41] Unknown:
Okay. What I haven't heard of that one. Flux Ultra?
[00:27:44] Unknown:
Yeah. It's Flux, f l u x. I use it through an API, so I'm not sure how available it is directly online. But, also, the other one is if if you need something that you can't get past the filters Mhmm. You can use Grok x AI for it. I don't like to use it, but I will use it if I need an image or something that I need raw mode. Flux Ultra also has a raw image mode. So, like, a good example is I was trying to make an image of a person standing on top of a box speaking to a bunch of other people. Mhmm. But for some reason, it thought that this was some political commentary or something, and I'm like, I want somebody standing on a box. The political rally. Yeah. So, anyways, I I was able to use create that in, you know, using raw mode and flux or I made a couple of it in x, and it worked fine.
But, yeah, I think there's a lot of options out there for AI as well that people may be not be familiar with. So if you're not getting what you want out of the system you're using, there's probably 10 other systems that do it 10 different ways. Yep. And you can go try one of those too.
[00:28:51] Unknown:
Yeah. I think, one of the problems now is that because AI has become so prevalent and everybody can use it, like, when you see a story or you see a news source I'm looking for the source. I'm looking for the actual source because is this the real picture? Are these the real people? Is this the real story? So that has given the added level of my protection in terms of what I put out in the world.
[00:29:22] Unknown:
Yeah. I think that's gonna get easier as AIs kind of start getting from training runs into training updates, right, where it gets updated constantly. Right. And that should be coming, you know, with the next versions, you know, your chat GBD five kinda thing. Right. Karen, if somebody wants to get ahold of you, they need an IP attorney, they wanna just talk about AI and and and the law, what's the best way for them to find you? I'm available on all socials. So that is k a r I n
[00:29:54] Unknown:
c o g e r e s k o. So that's Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, and blue sky because I left the other app.
[00:30:07] Unknown:
Yeah. I love the Blue Sky. Honestly, I use it every day. We can talk about that offline. I love Blue Sky. That's right. We'll connect on Blue Sky if we're not already on that. I think we might already be connected, honestly. Thanks for listening
[00:30:19] Unknown:
to Digital Marketing Masters with Matt Rouse and Karin Coger. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me.
[00:30:26] Unknown:
Karen, thank you so much for coming. This is a topic that I think a lot of people find super important right now, and, yeah, I really, I enjoy you coming and sharing your expertise with us. Thank you for having me.
[00:30:45] Unknown:
Now if you think you're hot and you got a lot from the show today, leave a review on Google Play or Apple or wherever people leave reviews these days.
[00:31:00] Unknown:
Hey. I just don't know. I only make songs. I'm a music AI, not a podcast review bot. I drop it like it's hot. So review this show and you will know. I feelin' that's warm. Inside, I feel electric slide. Peace.
Today on Digital Marketing Masters with your host, Matt Rouse, who has mostly lost his voice. IP, attorney Karin Coger, talks about artificial intelligence and intellectual property, rule, and copyright and the law in The United States.
[00:00:27] Unknown:
Everybody, welcome back to Digital Marketing Masters. My guest today is Karin Coger, and Karin is an IP attorney. Sorry. IP. I have to try and enunciate everything clearly because I had the flu last week, and I look kind of lost my voice. Corinne, how are you doing?
[00:00:47] Unknown:
Hello, everybody. Thank you so much, Matt, for having me onto the show. So, yes, definitely, I am an IP attorney. I enjoy it, but I'm also an AI artificial intelligence certified consultant. So I think that's how I landed here on this show. That's right. When I was at the marketing AI convention
[00:01:07] Unknown:
Mhmm. I think that the talk that had the most people go to it was the IP intellectual property and AI talk. Okay. And so when we connected, I was like, oh my gosh. People love this topic. And and I think it's also super valuable because not only do you not wanna get sued for things, but you also wanna know, you know, what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do. And I know we have international listeners, but I I think, obviously, we're gonna focus on US law since you're in The United States. Okay. But a lot of that carries over to other places. Right? So What do you think is kind of the blind spot that people have when it comes to AI and intellectual property?
[00:01:48] Unknown:
I think the blind spot is that people think they can hop on AI, whether it's Gemini, whether it's Copilot, whether it's Chad g GTP, insert their prompt. So ask the AI what they want, get the response, and then they want to register it either with the, I'm in The US. So the US copyright office or the United States patent and and trademark office. And both offices have different rules. So for instance, for patents right now, the rule is disclose the fact that you use AI to help you with your invention. However, AI is not one of the inventors.
Right. For copyrights, if you write a book, a magazine, record a video like this, the podcast, and you use AI, they, number one, want you to disclose it. But number two, they want a majority of what you are doing and what you're trying to register to be human based. So when I say majority, I think 51%. For trademarks, trademarks have always been difficult because a lot of people will hire a graphic designer, and they may just go on Google and, you know, take somebody else's trademark, and they give it to you. And you register it, and you find out it's somebody else's, you know, trademark. But with trademarks, you can trademark something you made with AI, but you should give something with some human value to it.
[00:03:29] Unknown:
Right. So I think on the, when you're talking about the majority written, something that I did when I was researching my book, Will AI Take My Job, is that it's completely human written, but I have three, like, takeaways at the end of each chapter, which actually use chat GBT to create the takeaways. Mhmm. And but I intentionally did that. Right? Because I wanted to show how AI can be used, you know, in in writing. But one of the actual original stumbling blocks I had was that when I first wrote it, the the I wrote the foreword was written by Chat GBT, and Amazon wouldn't allow my book to be published because it had too much AI content according to the rules. Mhmm. But by the time I had it finished editing and stuff and I was gonna publish it, they had released like, relaxed those rules. So then I was able to publish it. So it was Okay. It was interesting how the law was changing so quickly that, you know, in three months, it went from not allowed to publish to, you know, oh, now we're, using AI to put your book on Audible.
[00:04:34] Unknown:
Exactly. Like, I always say technology moves faster than the law. It takes a lot to change the law. So that's why they're having these initiatives or, you know, orders, you know, or something like that to determine what you're going to do. I always suggest to people if you're writing a book and you're using an LLM, put it through one of the websites that do the tech. Like, do you think, you know, this is based on AI? The other thing that I do, and I don't know if you've done this, Matt, is that you can train ChetGPT to think and talk like you. Right. And and that that is huge.
So the way that you view that is, first of all, you use it. Right? Right. Second of all, take transcripts of something like this, you know, a webinar, something you taught, get the transcript of it, upload it into chat GPC, and ask them, can you analyze the way I think I I speak and I I just do things. And then when you go into the personalization tab in the settings, you can copy and paste what they said. So therefore check GPT now talks more like you do, and it's not very
[00:05:58] Unknown:
check g GPT ish. That's right. I also found a good a good way that you can do that is you can create a document that has, like, these are examples of writing in my style that I like, and these are examples of things I don't want. Mhmm. Right? And you can just explicitly say what those are in the document and then upload it every time that you want it to do some writing, you know, maybe ideation for you or, you know, it's writing a blog post or a social post or something that you're gonna edit after. We always use human editing in our work, the agency.
We just we wanna put some eyeballs on it. You know? Sure. Just in case something weird happened. You know? And a lot of people are worried about about hallucination in systems, which the hallucination rate is now very, very low. Like, honestly, I would say it's lower than most of the, like, screw up level of most people. So but what we're looking for is if the AI lost the plot. You know? Right. So we want we asked it to write about x y z, and it wrote about x y a. Right. You know? And, yeah, and I'd kinda beard off and went down some weird rabbit hole that we didn't want it to kinda thing. Yeah. I've definitely seen that in The US. There have actually been similar cases about attorneys who submitted briefs to the
[00:07:19] Unknown:
court using AI, and they just made up cases. So Right. When they looked them up, they weren't there. And I did a report one time about madam CJ Walker. She was, like, the first African American billionaire in The US. And I put in information because I studied her. I was like, this doesn't sound right. You know? So you still have to check your AI. Now if you have companies like Lexus, they will tell you, alright. If you're doing AI through us, it's coming through Lexus. So, therefore, it is it's authentic, but I would say always check it. Yeah.
[00:07:58] Unknown:
I think a good kind of rule of thumb is the more important it is to be right, the more you need to check it. Yeah. So if it's if it's, you know, a diagnosis for a medical thing and the patient could be injured or killed. If it's not, you better have an MD check it. Right?
[00:08:16] Unknown:
If it's literally laughing at you because I have gotten, like I've gone to the doctor, got letter in the mail. The follow-up is, like, in a month. So I uploaded it. I was like, what does this mean?
[00:08:29] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of times, that's an excellent use for AI is just pasting and something and saying, what does this mean, or is this true? Right? And, you know, the, there's also there's a there's a really good study that was done. I don't remember who did it off the top of my head, but I remember Ethan Mollick was talking about it. And, essentially, it was the more you use the chat system, the more likely you are to believe it. Mhmm. And so what happens is over time, it gives you so many right answers that you just think all the answers are gonna be right.
[00:09:02] Unknown:
That's when something's gonna happen. Right? Yeah. That is true, especially when you personalize it. Like, when you get to that point where the system is talking to you, the way you talk, the way you trained it, you're automatically thinking like, okay. It's right. You know? Because they're talking like me, but you should definitely still check for authentication.
[00:09:24] Unknown:
Right. I really I I'd like to use, yeah, agents that are kind of trained where I've I've given them a personality and an image, you know, for who they are and stuff. And for me, it's a way to separate what the function of that kind of agent is. Mhmm. So if I'm gonna use one that is working with, like, writing Python code or something for me, you know, I have one that her name is is is Glinda, the Python coding agent woman. You know? And and then I have, like, Xing, the companion robot who is excellent at using computer use, like, if it's gonna go on a browser and fill out a form or something. Right? Right. And so I I have these little agent names and pictures to to kind of almost trick my brain into which one does which thing, like, which employee is this kind of thing. I like that. Which is kind of ironic since I wrote, you know, the book about if AI is gonna take your job. Then I have little AI employees, but mostly, they do my work. So, you know, nobody lost their job to my AI except me.
[00:10:37] Unknown:
Do you manage a local business or a biz with the service area?
[00:10:42] Unknown:
S and B Autopilot is the magic pill for your local business marketing. Get more calls, more clients,
[00:10:50] Unknown:
more patients, more buyers, more people finding you instead of your competitors. Check out sandbautopilot.ai for more details. Now back to the show.
[00:11:12] Unknown:
Well, I wanna ask this about image generators. I know that the law has recently kind of shifted in The United States around images. And I think probably the biggest topic is if somebody uses some images that they generated, do they own the copyright to the image or not? Nope. So
[00:11:32] Unknown:
I I tell people very simply, you trademark your brand, you copyright your content. If you did not create that content yourself, you do not own it. However, anybody can put circle c on whatever their content is. But there is definitely a difference between putting the circle c and actually registering it in the copyright office. So if you have a situation and you said, you know, I copyright this, somebody stole it from me, you can, like, kinda, like, retroactively apply for it with the copyright office because this is what happens when you see things that go viral, you know, real quick. You know, somebody has a great TikTok, and everybody's, you know, all excited about it. And it got, like, 1,000,000 views.
So the next day, five random people will try to register either trademarks or copyrights for whatever that creator said. Right. China is a first to file country. The United States is a first to use country. So, therefore, when they do that, you can combat it and say, this was my video or this was my post or it's I created it before it was
[00:12:55] Unknown:
registered. Yep. You have to I also Chris. Well, I was gonna say I have a, a client of ours who makes artwork that goes on products. And what they do a lot of times is they'll use an AI system to create parts of the artwork, and then they're usually illustrating over top of it. So it could be a background. It could be figures. It could be something, and then they're they're you know, kind of like the writing idea. Right? The majority is their illustration. Okay. So is that copyrightable in that case?
[00:13:29] Unknown:
It could be. So because they are giving their own work to that work. Yes. You can you can register it for the copyright with the copyright office. I think the main thing is just being honest with these agencies. Like, hey. You know, I use 30% generated AI and, you know, the 70% is what I do. I'm sure the copyright office is going through a whole bunch of changes right now because of, you know, because of AI and copyright. Right. Like, how do you check it? Like, there's there's That's right. So many checkers. So I'm sure that's what happened with you when you had your book on Amazon. You know, they scan it, and they will tell you, oh, we feel like this much was, you know,
[00:14:23] Unknown:
generated. Well, back then, it was voluntary reporting. But Yep. You know, the the AI checkers are an interesting thing because they tend to get used a lot in schools. Mhmm. And education institutions. And most of the studies find that they have a very high false positive rate, especially for people who don't have English as a first language Right. Which is obviously puts them in a difficult position. Mhmm. But I think and and, you know, you as an attorney would know better than me, but my suggestion is always to have a policy about it first before you start trying to, like, kick people out of school for use in AI and stuff. Or, you know, or your company or your organization should have an AI use policy, like a blanket policy to start with.
[00:15:08] Unknown:
And I absolutely had a case like that. So I had a school that I was representing. Somebody created something in the school based upon the school's rules. Yes. That was owned by the school, but it wasn't, I'm sorry. That's okay. By what belongs to the school and what belongs to the creator and what is AI.
[00:15:37] Unknown:
Yeah. That's a tough distinction, I think. I find, there's gonna be a lot of interesting IP stuff coming up. Like, a really good example is I have a photograph of kind of people sitting around a fire. Mhmm. And we used an AI to to kind of pan across the photograph and have the fire burning. Right? So now I've turned a photograph into a video. So does the original photographer own the rights to it, or do I own the rights to it to the video now?
[00:16:16] Unknown:
The original photographer owns the rights to that. If you want it to be yours, there needs to be a copyright transfer agreement. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we had permission to use it. I'm just Yeah. I'm you know, something that says that you have permission. Right? And then with that, when you talk to people that may be in the photograph, I always disclose in the in the contract, this may be altered by AI. However Oh, yeah. It will only be altered, quote unquote to make it better, not to change anything that's very distinctive, but just to make this better. So before you and I, you know, got on the recorded call, you know, we talked about umms, ooms. Yeah. So those are things that you take out. So let's say you have a video not a video, a picture, and there's somebody in the background that you don't want in that picture and you remove them. But the biggest thing is letting people know that you are using AI to do this.
[00:17:23] Unknown:
So you would suggest that if people have, like, model release contracts or something that they put AI editing into those contracts. Maybe my second last question, unless we have to follow it up a little bit. What do you think that, you know, for the average business owner, what can they do to kind of protect the intellectual property of their company and that, you know, maybe their employees or their agencies are creating for them?
[00:17:53] Unknown:
Okay. So what I find is the average business owner puts IP on the back burner, which they should not. IP should be on the front burner. So when you're coming up with a name for your company and your marketing materials, you should at least consult with the IP attorney to determine whether or not that name or that logo or that say is available. Right? And then you should work with them throughout this because what happens is people create content. And when I say content now, whether it's a t shirt, you know, whether it's a video, whether it's marketing material, whether you have a very special way that you onboard your clients and you put it in writing, all of that should be protected, you know, by IP.
And what happens is, again, a lot of people don't do it, and then they get a cease and desist letter. And in The US, if the petitioner or opposer filed for that copyright, they can sue, and it can win up to a hundred and $50,000. And they can send you cease and desist letters. Yeah. So
[00:19:13] Unknown:
Right. Yeah. That's obviously a problem. One thing, actually, that I also wanted to ask you that we kind of talked a little bit about before the show. You have mentioned about kind of anonymizing the information that you're putting into systems like ChatGPT because you don't want to, or maybe in your case, you know, you have confidentially confidentiality with clients, and and you're not allowed to send information. Oh. So does that work? Like, how are you kind of anonymizing the information you're using?
[00:19:47] Unknown:
It works for me very well, but I only use it in the IP space. So for instance, for me, if I'm working on a trademark client, I just don't put in, you know, the name of the trademark owner. Right? But in other practice areas, it could be different. So if you're working on a divorce case, you may not want to put that, you know, person into whatever whatever LLM you're using, but you just put the situation in Right. And use that and then ask for cases. Yeah. I think,
[00:20:26] Unknown:
it's interesting. The the attorney or the family law angle, you know, like a divorce attorney or something like that, because we used to do some advertising with a family law attorney who's who's retired now. But their first client that they had gotten since they hired us Mhmm. They asked them, how did you find out about us? And they said that they got ads for the family law attorney for a week before their spouse gave them papers for divorce. So the predictive advertising system had predicted that they were going to get divorced and started advertising to them in advance, which is both, I mean, good for the attorney to get the client, but also kind of frightening from a privacy standpoint.
So, you know, that's how you understand what information you want or don't want to give out online, you know, whether it's an LMM or a search engine or whatever. I have that situation. I went to a friend's house.
[00:21:22] Unknown:
The friend and I are social media friends on all platforms. Her cousin was there. We just talked. We did not exchange social me social media. The next day, she popped up in my Instagram. That's right. Okay. You were listening to me, Meta, aka Mark Zuckerberg,
[00:21:42] Unknown:
because how does she now show that? Or they have the location data on the phones being in the same place. Right?
[00:21:48] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:21:49] Unknown:
So, yeah, that kind of data is everywhere. So, you know, protect your data, people. I kinda feel like
[00:21:54] Unknown:
all the tech giants in all the government know everything about me. I I I've just submitted to that.
[00:22:01] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, there's oh, plus there's so many data leaks all the time that, you know, all your spending habits get Yeah. Released and things. And but there is you know, honestly, where I live, that's not the case yet because most people barely have good enough Internet that anybody could steal their data in the first place. You know? Or people live off grid and stuff. Oh. But it's still important to have an understanding of privacy and what information that you're giving away when you're using things. You know? Like, when you're using Instagram or using Facebook or the TikTok or whatever and you're using it for free, right, they're collecting the data. That's how they make the money. Right? These are data for advertising.
[00:22:43] Unknown:
Yep. Interrupt you for one second because I want to give an example. For right now, we're on StreamYard. So on the right, it says, we use cookies. So then there's a button, accept all cookies or customize cookies. I owe customized cookies. I only allow them to get the information that they need. The other cookies are usually, can we use you for advertising? Can we follow you for advertising? Most people just select accept all because they don't know what it is.
[00:23:15] Unknown:
Yeah. The advertising and marketing cookies are for retargeting systems. But, also, all that data gets sent to, but usually, both Meta and Google and Microsoft. So all of them. As someone who does advertising, I understand how these platforms work. I understand how the data collection works. You know, if you're using what I was gonna say is if you're using an AI for free, then your training data, everything you put into it is training data for them. Absolutely. But if you pay for it, you can opt out of being having your information being used as training data. That's correct. Can also delete things that you've put into it, you know, if they're no longer relevant or you don't want someone to find them or whatever. Right? So I think it's important to pay for the AI system Mhmm. Because it it keeps the it gives you the option to keep your data private.
Mhmm. And, also, it supports those systems with a model of revenue where they don't have to steal your data and give it to advertisers. Right? Right. Absolutely. I I pay for,
[00:24:20] Unknown:
the systems that I use. I suggest that everybody pay for them if you are in that situation. If you're just, like, a random person that's like, hey. I have cabbage chicken and a red pepper, you know, in my refrigerator or chat GPT. Can you give me a recipe? No big deal. Right. And and and I have done that. But if you if if you're using it for business, if you're using it for business that you don't want out there for everybody, I would suggest paying for it and electing not to allow them to use your data.
[00:24:57] Unknown:
Yeah. I saw or or I listened to a podcast on the, artificial intelligence podcast. Anyways, he was saying it's a slippery slope with the data. Right? What happens is it's, right now, it's it's what can I make out of cabbage and chicken? And next week, it's what should I do if my girlfriend's breaking up with me? Right? So it's a slippery slope, people. So just pay for it, get it over with, and, you know
[00:25:21] Unknown:
what's crazy is this I'm married right now, but people are literally using these LLMs for dating sites. They're they they will, like, upload the profile of the person and say to the LLM, what should I say to her? What should I say to him? So it's not even really the real person. It's just with the l o m, you know, decided that this was important. And that's a little scary.
[00:25:49] Unknown:
It is. And, honestly, if if I was gonna like, I'm a married person, but if I was gonna use a dating app, I would highlight my whole profile and paste it into chat GBT and say, how do you think I can approve this? Absolutely. I did that with LinkedIn. So
[00:26:05] Unknown:
it doesn't have to be a dating app, but I absolutely did that with LinkedIn and asked them to rewrite my LinkedIn profile.
[00:26:12] Unknown:
Yeah. And, I mean, I I honestly I have this kind of, like I'm I'm kind of two minds about a lot of stuff where I say, okay. Well, I'm gonna use AI to help me with these things, but these other things are things that I'm just gonna do myself. And and it's not like a line in the sand. Like, someday, maybe I'll use it to fix up my LinkedIn. But I enjoy writing. Right? So I'll I'll, you know, write on LinkedIn. And then but I gotta, like, write a blog for the forty seventh time about some product, you know, that a company has that we do work do work for. Mhmm. Maybe I don't wanna write about it. You know, this this maybe I'm not feeling it today. I'll go ahead and I'll say, give me 10 ideas. It'll give me those. I'll pick three of them. I'll say, let's explore these, put it into the research tool, get some stuff back. And I'll say, hey. You know what? Let's write about this blog, but let's take this angle on it. Let's have this kind of twist at the end or whatever, and then it comes out. And I'm like, there we go. Send her to the editor.
[00:27:08] Unknown:
I I do the same, and then I just put, like, a asterisk at bottom. Like, this was powered by chat.
[00:27:15] Unknown:
Just letting you know. Yeah. I use I don't wanna take it. You know? Yeah. If it's, like, something with my name on it, I'm gonna use an AI use disclosure. Mhmm. Right? Like, if it's a presentation or something, I'll say, all the background images in this presentation are made in MidJourney.
[00:27:31] Unknown:
How do you like new MidJourney?
[00:27:33] Unknown:
I love it. I use it every day. I used it today about eight times. Nice. But I also use Flex Ultra.
[00:27:41] Unknown:
Okay. What I haven't heard of that one. Flux Ultra?
[00:27:44] Unknown:
Yeah. It's Flux, f l u x. I use it through an API, so I'm not sure how available it is directly online. But, also, the other one is if if you need something that you can't get past the filters Mhmm. You can use Grok x AI for it. I don't like to use it, but I will use it if I need an image or something that I need raw mode. Flux Ultra also has a raw image mode. So, like, a good example is I was trying to make an image of a person standing on top of a box speaking to a bunch of other people. Mhmm. But for some reason, it thought that this was some political commentary or something, and I'm like, I want somebody standing on a box. The political rally. Yeah. So, anyways, I I was able to use create that in, you know, using raw mode and flux or I made a couple of it in x, and it worked fine.
But, yeah, I think there's a lot of options out there for AI as well that people may be not be familiar with. So if you're not getting what you want out of the system you're using, there's probably 10 other systems that do it 10 different ways. Yep. And you can go try one of those too.
[00:28:51] Unknown:
Yeah. I think, one of the problems now is that because AI has become so prevalent and everybody can use it, like, when you see a story or you see a news source I'm looking for the source. I'm looking for the actual source because is this the real picture? Are these the real people? Is this the real story? So that has given the added level of my protection in terms of what I put out in the world.
[00:29:22] Unknown:
Yeah. I think that's gonna get easier as AIs kind of start getting from training runs into training updates, right, where it gets updated constantly. Right. And that should be coming, you know, with the next versions, you know, your chat GBD five kinda thing. Right. Karen, if somebody wants to get ahold of you, they need an IP attorney, they wanna just talk about AI and and and the law, what's the best way for them to find you? I'm available on all socials. So that is k a r I n
[00:29:54] Unknown:
c o g e r e s k o. So that's Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, and blue sky because I left the other app.
[00:30:07] Unknown:
Yeah. I love the Blue Sky. Honestly, I use it every day. We can talk about that offline. I love Blue Sky. That's right. We'll connect on Blue Sky if we're not already on that. I think we might already be connected, honestly. Thanks for listening
[00:30:19] Unknown:
to Digital Marketing Masters with Matt Rouse and Karin Coger. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me.
[00:30:26] Unknown:
Karen, thank you so much for coming. This is a topic that I think a lot of people find super important right now, and, yeah, I really, I enjoy you coming and sharing your expertise with us. Thank you for having me.
[00:30:45] Unknown:
Now if you think you're hot and you got a lot from the show today, leave a review on Google Play or Apple or wherever people leave reviews these days.
[00:31:00] Unknown:
Hey. I just don't know. I only make songs. I'm a music AI, not a podcast review bot. I drop it like it's hot. So review this show and you will know. I feelin' that's warm. Inside, I feel electric slide. Peace.
