The Role of Religion: From Personal Beliefs to Societal Impact
Finding Spirituality: A Journey Through Religion and Beyond
Religion and Society: Balancing Personal Faith and Public Policy
Heathens, Buddhists, and Christians: A Deep Dive into Diverse Beliefs
Mindfulness, Morality, and Community: The Essence of True Religion
(00:01:31) Opening Monologue on Religion and Nothingness
(00:03:01) Introduction of Hosts and Tonight's Topic
(00:07:26) Etymology and Definitions of Religion
(00:11:52) Personal Religious Journeys
(00:28:08) Agnosticism and Utilitarianism
(00:37:26) Heathenism and Tribal Societies
(00:55:15) Distinction Between Organized Religion and Personal Faith
(01:02:01) Religion, Politics, and Society
(01:20:22) Middle Path and Morality
(01:35:07) Regionalism and Religion
(01:57:06) Shift from Religion to Scientism and Technocracy
(02:14:05) Higher Power and Localism
(02:19:18) Final Thoughts and Reflections
In this episode of Deliberating Dudes, hosts John Roeland, Allen Marcus, and Benjamin Balderson dive into the complex and often contentious topic of religion and its impact on society. The conversation kicks off with a deep discussion about the nature of nothingness and its philosophical implications. The hosts then introduce the main topic: religion, its definitions, and its role in shaping societal norms and personal beliefs.
John shares his journey from being raised in a Christian household to exploring various religions, ultimately finding solace in Taoism and Buddhism. He emphasizes the importance of meditation and mindfulness as practical tools for achieving spiritual enlightenment. Allen Marcus provides a nuanced perspective on agnosticism and the challenges of maintaining a consistent moral framework in a world filled with religious and political polarization.
Benjamin Balderson offers a unique viewpoint as a heathen, discussing the historical and cultural significance of his beliefs. He highlights the importance of hospitality and community in heathen culture and critiques the one-size-fits-all approach to religion and governance. The hosts also touch on the role of organized religion in providing charity and community support, contrasting it with the pitfalls of political and religious extremism.
The episode concludes with a reflection on the need for localized, flexible approaches to religion and governance, emphasizing the importance of personal spiritual experiences and community bonds. The hosts agree that while organized religion has its flaws, the underlying principles of spirituality and community support remain invaluable.
- John Roeland
https://serve.podhome.fm/deliberatingdogfacedudes
https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/deliberatingdogfacedudes/4
[00:00:03]
Benjamin Balderson:
This is not the first time we've had audio issues.
[00:00:09] John Roeland:
It'll happen again.
[00:00:11] Benjamin Balderson:
I'm watching I'm listening to the Yeah. Go inside. I feel fairly comfortable. It's not the last. I'm not hearing sound, John, unless that's on purpose.
[00:00:35] John Roeland:
Thing. That's the defining characteristic of nothing is that it doesn't exist. So what are we talking about? Either you think it's God, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph and science can't prove or you think it's nothing something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph and science can't prove. But I think we can all agree, if nothing if your nothing sometimes spontaneously erupts into everything, that's a pretty goddamn magical fucking nothing, you guys. And ask ask the nothing people, what happens when you die? They'll tell you, nothing. You go into nothing. I'm like, you mean you merge back with your creator?
That's heaven, bitch.
[00:01:31] Benjamin Balderson:
Hell. Welcome back to deliberating dudes. That's hilarious and an excellent, choice on tonight's topic. Tonight, we're gonna discuss religion, and then how that pertains to the society around us. But, good to see you guys.
[00:01:54] John Roeland:
Good to see you, Ben. I'm John Rowland. Good to be here with the Liberating Dog Face Dudes.
[00:02:03] allen marcus:
I'm Alan Marcus here with Delivering Dog Faves Dudes. Alan Marcus. Alanmarcus.com. It's a real web page. There's a couple pages on there where we share the podcasts for Weaving Spiders Welcome and Deliberating Dog Face Dudes. So you can get the audio there. And there's also some added information, show notes, x chart, and that sort of thing. Trying to keep up with that as best as we can. If you're appreciating that, let me know, and I'll we'll keep it up.
[00:02:36] Benjamin Balderson:
And I'm Benjamin Balderson from also from Weaving Spider's Welcome and, Odin's Alchemy and guest on a whole lot of shows. But, currently, just on, delivering dog face dudes and Weaving Spider's welcome.
[00:02:57] John Roeland:
Good to see you guys this evening. So we decided this week we're gonna have a discussion about religion and, started off a little vague in terms of what exactly we're gonna talk about, but we did discuss the fact that a lot of these debates shows that we watch or broadcast that we watch. There definitely is a religious perspective that people come to these debates with, and, in some cases, discussing how religion may be implemented in society to make it better or, improve or solve some problems. So we're each of us is gonna investigate our own experience with religion and kind of talk about where we land at the present moment and, how that may apply to, problems that are in the world and if it could be a solution to any of those problems.
And then we'll, you know, maybe push back on each other. I'm sure Ben is gonna talk a lot of shit about my religion. No. Just kidding. I thought a good way to start off, you know, definitions are a good way to good way to, get things rolling, as they say. So Ettom online, break down the etymology of the word. It says c 1200 religion religion, state of life bound by monastic vows. Also, action or conduct indicating a belief in a divine power and reverence for and desire to please it. From Anglo French religion, old French religion, piety, devotion, religious community, and directly from Latin, religionum, nominative religio, respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods, conscientiousness, sense of right moral obligation, fear of the gods, divine service, religious observance, a religion, a faith, a mode of worship, cult, sanctity, holiness, in late Latin monastic life.
This part is something that I've seen come up a bit where the word actually comes from. It says this noun of action was derived by Cicero from religere, r e l e g e r e. Go through again in reading or in thought from re again and legare, read, so to reread. However, popular etymology among the later ancients, Servius, Lactantius, Augustine, and the interpretation of many modern writers connects it with religare, to bind fast, via the notion of place an obligation on or bond bond between humans and gods. In that case, the re would be intensive. Another possible origin is religions careful opposite of negligence.
So and I'll read the final paragraph because it's short. In English, the meaning particular system of faith in the worship of a divine being or beings is by 1300 the sense of recognition of and allegiance in manner of life perceived as justly due to a higher unseen power or powers from the 15 thirties. I'll say just real quick before you guys comment that, you know, I, you know, had heard that it's religare, which means to bind again, which means, you know, the interpretation that I had heard was it's to hold you back, to thwart from forward progress. But over time thinking about it, I kinda thought, well, to have a bond with something is kind of what religion is about. You are you're you're bonding back to the original source.
So, I don't think it has to have such a negative connotation, but a lot of people do read it that way, like, to bind again, to bind, to hold you back. And then the religare, to reread, is an interesting interpretation that, you know I mean, obviously, if you are following a religion, you probably have a religious text and you probably are rereading it over and over again. So it's kind of a connection to the words, you know? The the reading again and again kind of connects you with that bond. And, so what do you guys think about this this definition? Or
[00:07:57] Benjamin Balderson:
Okay. I I I find it very interesting that because with the vagueness of it in a lot of aspects, there's depending on which which one you go with, you know, just like, doing something repetitively, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree that it becomes kinda your religion. You know, like a gym bros go to the gym religiously, and that's and that's the thing that they find, you know, most impressive, and that's what they go around touting to everybody. And that's what they're all about. So, I wouldn't necessarily disagree that this definition with as broad as it is in some aspects really kinda fit some things.
It, also makes very interesting. I think she must have left supper in the oven too long. She also must, it also, leaves open the interpretation for, like, where it it takes somebody that's extraordinarily gluttonous with food. Like, that could be their thing. I've seen people that you hand them food, and they all of a sudden are gleeful. And that's all they talk about is food. That's what they post on their social media or money or status. So it leaves it open for, a lot of different interpretations on some of those anyways.
[00:09:34] allen marcus:
I think that's my favorite sort of folk definition of what religion is, religion having to do with, supper time and maybe some moral fiber and the fiber that binds a community together by eating together, looking at the word yoga, which kind of also means union. So it's this togetherness of a of a community. And for a long time during my college years, when I was shopping for new churches, I would attend all the potluck dinners, and I decided at some point that I didn't really care what the belief structure was, what the doctrine was, but rather I would choose the church based off of who was the most generous in their potluck dinners and serving me food afterwards. So I think that's the biggest benefit of any sort of religious gathering is that I am well fed.
[00:10:26] John Roeland:
Yeah. That makes sense.
[00:10:28] allen marcus:
It's hard to disagree on a full stomach. We can all agree, hey. Let's just go or separate and take a nap.
[00:10:35] John Roeland:
Yeah. If you go to the Buddhist temple, though, they're vegetarian, so might not.
[00:10:42] Benjamin Balderson:
I I I do have to admit, I have always admired the Christian potluck. That that's you. Nothing wrong with that.
[00:10:52] John Roeland:
Well, I'll I'll share a little bit. For me, personally, I was baptized Catholic, and then, you know, by the time I was could really remember, I was going to a Nazarene church, which is very laid back, you know, not as much ritual, obviously, coming from the Catholic church. And I always kinda just bought into it. I would go to church camp, and we'd have, like, very moving ceremonies, campfires where it felt like there was something something was there, something was some type of energy. I realize now that probably if you get a bunch of people together around the campfire and sing songs, you're gonna get some sense of a spiritual heightening, but I definitely bought into it. But it was also at that camp as we got older that my sister, who's a little older than me, started questioning, and a bunch of the kids were kinda questioning it, calling it a fairy tale. And then I remember having a friend in high school who was Muslim, and she was telling me her religion was the right religion and was kind of trying to influence me to look into it. And I just started realizing, like, how could how could God, you know, judge that person who was raised in that religion different than they judge me, and it's all based on which book you're reading. So I pretty much let it go in terms of being connected to one specific story, but I never I never threw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.
I always looked for the positives in the story, which I always thought the story of Christ was more of a, an example that we're supposed to live by. And so then once I got out of high school, I really got into studying the different religions. And I think for me, it was always looking to, like, well, what was the what was the religion before that? What was, you know, like, what what's the foundational religion, which I know now is the concept is the prisca theologia. Right? Like, the the one religion or the original religion. And that idea or that search for me ties into that definition of binding back because I feel like my search was always a binding back to, like, you know, well, what came before that? What you know, because even if you look at the concept of God, right, if you're like, okay. Well, there's this source. Well, okay. Well, what created that? Like, there's something in our mind that always is, like, thinking, well, what's what's the original thing? Is there an original thing? How does this all work? So, to me, that process, ultimately has led me to Daoism.
Daoism to me is, to me, from my understanding, Daoism is kind of the foundation of Buddhism. That might sound kinda crazy, but to me, Daoism sort of establishes this idea of a middle way between the moral poles and to kind of just go with the flow. Not you know, as soon as you call something pretty, then that's ugly. As soon as you call something good, that's bad. So it's this idea of sort of transcending that and also just kind of finding that that slipstream in the middle where you aren't necessarily judging everybody. It's action through inaction.
It's, it which doesn't mean don't take any action. It's just more adapting to, you know, what most people would consider good or bad. And so for me, as I've gone on my search, what I like about Buddhism is I feel like Buddhism is basically the same philosophy, but Buddhism is teaching you practical ways to control your own mind. And I personally think that that's something really important for people to learn. Some people think that Buddhists are atheists. What I found when I was studying it was that there is a spiritual principle there, but they don't talk about God. So the spiritual principle would be karma.
So it's implying that there's something in the universe that is encouraging us to help each other, not harm each other, harm each other less, and that, to me, that implies a God. But, I can't say I ever actually heard anybody at the Buddhist temple talk about God or the creator or anything like that. So it becomes more to me, especially leaving Christianity, it becomes more of showing you how to be a better person, where Christianity is sort of this story of the ultimate man who you could maybe be like or maybe you can't be like because you're full of sin. But depending on how you look at it, I never really felt like Christianity was giving me practical tools to achieve a higher spiritual enlightenment where I feel like Buddhism right away. If you go to a I mean, for me, there's a Buddhist temple near where I live. The first thing they do is have you meditate, count your breath.
It's just it's just the practice of meditating. And, so that's where I find myself now is I keep going back to Taoism. I also have gotten much more into the Yi Ching, which from my understanding is what Daoism was based on. That the, you know, the Yijing is an oracle, survived the burning books and, burning of the books in China, the oldest book in China, and it's basically like an oracle. And I've heard one story that Lao Tzu was would read the Yi Ching for whatever dynasty he worked for. And then he kind of wrote the Dao De Jing based on his experience and the wisdom he garnered from that.
So I use the Yijing. I find it very fascinating. It seems to be pretty accurate. But again, I mean, I guess that's all your perception on it. But, yeah. So that's where I find myself that's where I find myself at with religion.
[00:17:53] Benjamin Balderson:
It's good stuff. Alright. You wanna go next or you wanna go last there, Marcus?
[00:18:01] allen marcus:
Well, if you put me in a hot seat and interview me, this stream could go all night, and you might not get any actual answers.
[00:18:08] Benjamin Balderson:
Well, the hot seats get ready to come. You get to give your, John, like John did, your stance religiously and then once applied to society, I believe, is where the hot seat comes in because I don't know that there's even a hot seat that we had for,
[00:18:28] allen marcus:
you know, what you wanna do in your own Well, the the the hot seat is, like, the literal life or death choice. There's this moment from, you know, Christian, culture that takes place in a school in Colorado in, I think, 1999 where there's the students in this high school are hearing gunshots. And in a library, a girl named Cassie has to stand up and decide because she has a gun pointed at her head to say, you know, do you believe in capital g o d? God, I don't know if it was defined as the God of the Bible, the Old Testament, or the New Testament. It was just, do you believe in God? And then everybody in a Christian youth group setting has to face this thought in their head over and over and over again. Well, do you believe in god or not? Well, it doesn't matter if you believe in the doctrine of the specific church that you're sitting sitting in in this moment. The question is, do you believe in god or not? Okay. So that becomes the preeminent question above all questions.
Do you believe in god or not? If you answer no, then that means you're part of the outside. Or if you answer yes, you're somehow on the inside, but then you might have to die for your faith, which thinking back now and reflecting upon it, the idea of religion and violence in the same sentence, in the same thought is so
[00:20:05] Benjamin Balderson:
interesting to think about. I think we'll circle back to that point. But from there on, Jim I mean, are you gonna obfuscate a bunch more before you circle back, or are you gonna actually just answer your own religious views? I'm just curious. Actually, I'm sure that's what everybody else says. They're both the changes over time. Time limits, so you wouldn't obfuscate for a bunch of time and then no chance, like, don't do anything about your religion in any way, shape, or form.
[00:20:35] allen marcus:
Right. Like, that that that's what you're supposed to be The the yes or no question is difficult to answer. It might be rephrased so I can answer it. To what degree do I believe? So we have to be more specific. To what degree do I believe in the the Christian God of the New Testament, which would imply
[00:20:55] Benjamin Balderson:
father, son, and holy spirit. Nobody said it that way. Nobody pinned you down to that. John there just said, Taoism, Buddhism, karma, I Ching, and a number of things in between and then gave, his understandings of which parts of each that he mostly appreciated. Sure. So nobody tried to pin that down. So
[00:21:20] allen marcus:
So my my wiggling my wiggling and squirming. As you've seen my display, this wiggling and squirming, it would have to be, well, isn't that sort of agnosticism to say that I'm not really taking a position? I'm not quick to say yes or no. So I think practically and applied in my life going on since after probably age 23, it's probably been, for the most part, agnosticism with curiosity towards what's going on in the world in terms of all of the religions, all the faiths, all the histories, all of the theological debates, and there are many of them.
And then to see what plays out in the real world under real world conditions. So going back to the situation where a girl, a high school girl in a library is faced at gunpoint to have to decide, well, do you believe in God? Yes or no? Implying if you answer incorrectly, you will die for your faith. At that point, I would have to say, I don't know that I would die for a faith and a yes or no question, which means because it was practically applied, I would have to shrug and say, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have an answer.
[00:22:48] Benjamin Balderson:
So then more accurately, even without a religion, where is your set of moral standards derived from?
[00:22:58] allen marcus:
That's where in putting into practice the words, the teachings, and the following, sort of indoctrination from high school going to college, making the decision to go to a private Christian college to study, biblical studies and theology. Why did I do that? The answer I gave at that time, and I probably still do, was that having gone to secular schools and state schools and seeing the, drug use, the alcohol use, the sex, and just the degradation of individuals through that sort of culture and the party, atmosphere, which wasn't conducive to academics. Put simply, I didn't wanna have roommates who were not serious about academic study. So I chose a private school that was within a familiar framework of my own beliefs because it was comfortable. I think that's the reason why I chose it. I felt it would be more comfortable. I'd have more in common with a majority of people. It was what I grew up knowing.
But to my surprise, there wasn't a whole lot of people that were exactly like me even within the sort of religious umbrella. So finding that, applied and then the practical application of the set of belief systems influence other people's lives differently. So when you test out the belief system and the structure of living in a fellowship in a community with people who are under the same sort of idea of what we're doing, it was tested. And to find out that more people were prioritizing at that point their own selfish sort of pursuit of knowledge to the end of, getting a degree to give them the best job, you would find out that there wasn't the sort of teamwork and helping and sort of humbleness. So if it's a servant leadership position that Jesus would teach his disciples to be servant leaders, if there was an internship, people would compete and throw on other people under the bus and, you know, lie and cheat and steal just to get to the top of the position even within the setting.
So they weren't even following what they believed to be true when it came down to their own well-being and livelihood. So at that point, that's where I had to say, well, okay. If this is the practical application of a Christian community and this is the outcome of it and they're leaving me stranded here, then I'm gonna have to rethink some things. So that's where I'll leave it for now.
[00:26:06] Benjamin Balderson:
So you would say you're utilitarian? Would that be the,
[00:26:12] allen marcus:
most accurate description then? In terms of application of belief systems?
[00:26:19] Benjamin Balderson:
Of morality?
[00:26:21] allen marcus:
I haven't considered that.
[00:26:24] Benjamin Balderson:
I mean, it's mostly what you described. Right? Utilitarian. Right. You you see a effect whether it's a positive or negative effect and you based off of that.
[00:26:38] allen marcus:
Yeah. We studied utilitarianism in my private Christian college, and they had different ideas of what it meant. So seeing things to a theological Christian biblical worldview inspires yourself to see things that aren't really written on the page. So having a preconceived worldview led to certain defending of that worldview through that sort of lens. So I moved out of that because of my own interest in storytelling and history and other things. I thought that I needed to see how other people would see the world and to be able to see from their point of view. So from there on, I kind of took on a multimodal agnosticism of saying, I don't know which model is best, but if I can try and view the world through those very specific ideas and lenses, then maybe I'd have a better understanding of other people to relate to them. And through doing so, I do think that would lead me to say, by by practice and behavior, that that does seem very utilitarian.
Yeah.
[00:27:50] John Roeland:
So do you feel like you're still searching for a final answer or, like, a final conclusion that you've drawn about the world, about creation, about higher powers?
[00:28:09] allen marcus:
Right. So that's where the sort of flip it flip it, flippy floppy sort of what side are you on today? Well, it's like depending on what group of people I'm with, when in Rome do as the Romans do, when in Vegas, well, what's happens in Vegas? Today's in Vegas. This sort of thing where when religion comes to being in a group setting and it's used to unite people, that's probably when it's at its best. So having the the wisdom to know that being in someone else's house, in someone else's culture to listen and to be observant, to figure out what the context clues are, to sort of blend in in a way. That would be the way to then learn further. And I don't know if that's a religious position. It's certainly not evangelical anymore. I don't think it's the opposite of evangelical because I'm not I'm not preaching against certain churches if that's my behavior.
So this sort of polarization thing of, well, do you believe in god? Yes or no. If you answer no, then you're an atheist or yes, then you're some kind of Christian, Jew, or Muslim?
[00:29:33] John Roeland:
I I have this friend on Facebook who I've I mean, I've never met her. We're just friends because some cause or something. I don't know. But, she's pretty cool. She seems like a cool cool person. She's from Oakland. And, she always kinda talks about, like, that there's no god. Like, she kinda talks like she's an atheist. But then she turns around and talks about, like, spirits and yeah. And I'm like, to me, you can't to me, I would need someone to explain to me how you believe in, like, a spiritual hierarchy, but not but not some sort of higher power that that put everything in motion.
I mean, I could wrap my mind around that it's just always been, but I guess for my instinct tells me that the human mind is always gonna look for, like, a starting point or, like, where a source where this all came from. But I just find that interesting to me. Again, like in Buddhism, when they are talking about a spiritual principle that exists, to me, that implies then that there's something bigger going on than just us. And to me to me, that points to a god, a creator, something that, you know, is has has created this for a purpose. Not that I know what the purpose is, you know, but, yeah, I just find that interesting that, you know, that people can believe in spirits and higher powers, but then turn around and say that they don't believe in God.
[00:31:19] Benjamin Balderson:
So I'm myself I grew up in the Midwest, not very far from Marcus. Where I'm from, for all practical purposes, every area in town has either a Catholic or a Lutheran church. You know? Do you like the stanky fish, or do you like doing the calisthenics while you're in church? Which one do you want? And so, and then, occasionally, some other town has a offshoot odd one like Methodist or Baptist or some other version of the Abrahamic. Occasionally, you get a a Jehovah's Witness out in the woods somewhere. It's, you know, and they'll come visit you for sure, talk to you. But that's basically the entire Midwest.
I grew up. My parents were I don't think they really gave it thought, to be honest. I wouldn't have called them either atheist. I'm not even honestly to this day sure what my dad's religion is if he's ever mentioned it. You know, they're heavily from that era of don't talk politics and religion at home and whatnot. So it wasn't something that a whole lot of thought was given to. And then by the time I was 12, I think, is when the Time Life books came out, and I started getting them. And I started getting into very odd things, which wasn't necessarily against religion, but it also wasn't a real big interest of mine.
When I became older, my parents became Christian. I tried that hat on. I was very interested in all the different, cultures. So because I never really latched on to 1, I went to all kinds of different ceremonies, basically anything I ever had access to. And because I spent whether it was in the army or in prison, I spent a lot of time in a state institution. I had access to, you know, all of them. You know, most of them that are considered major. So I've been to powwows. I've been to, Muslim, ceremonies. I've been to Jewish ceremonies. I've been to, you know, you name it. And, I even spent a year at the going to the Jewish ones and studying with their things. Then, where I had ended up landing as, more adult was that I was fully left hand path where I was not for religion, and I was very anti religious.
But very left hand path, you get these understandings on your own. You do it through your own, life, your own experiences, your own things like that. And then, eventually, I ended up becoming an and finding Odin. And I am a hard hard to this day, which being an oddness is still very left hand path. But I also have a re a recognition that that is absolutely not for everybody. That's not even for the majority is the problem. There's a reason that, you know, in the in the conspiracy community, there's a understanding that the esoteric or exoteric is to hide the esoteric.
But one of the problems that you end up running into is is that most people just don't have it to understand the esoteric. The esoteric is the best they're gonna get. They might get a very broad understanding, but most people just aren't that interested. And, a lot of people and here's here's another thing, and it's a a thing that I ended up having to come to because I was also a hard anarchist, where I eventually had to end up coming to understand that there are some people that do not wanna take care of themselves, and we can pretend like today's this today's point in history, those people exist and they never have before, but that's nonsense.
Historically, there's always been people that don't wanna do don't wanna think, don't wanna, they just wanna be told what to do, go home, fit in some lines, and not move at all. And that's actually the majority. Most people don't wanna take the time and lead their own life. Most people don't wanna put hard study into anything outside of maybe a hobby or something that one little thing that catches their interest. And peep you can't judge those people. Like, those people are the ones that get the raw the the ruggedest work done. The the people who are doing these other, say you wanna become a mass a master carpenter.
Well, you still you don't wanna take your time carrying all the wood and hucking shingles and doing all that kind of thing. You want somebody else to do that, and they and you sure be happy to have somebody that's just willing to do that and not care about actually becoming more and having, more motivation. I I we all aren't the same, and I think that there's this hard push for everybody to be the same. So as a heathen, actually, religiously, there isn't a lot of rules. So there's kind of a separation, between society and religion where some of the things that a lot of the things that the societies did, and some of those I will represent, those aren't in a religious text.
So we have the Havamal and we have the Edas, or we have, some other stories. If you're Germanic, they have versions of it that are different than the Edas. In there, what you can, there's one so if you look at the, which is the most, without getting too deep into it and, crazy with books nobody ever heard of. So the ad is, most well known. It's separated into 3 basic sec sections. One is how you act in your home and how you, treat guests, and then how you act out in the world. And so there's while it's not so much rules, there's things in there like I'm not sure what the Christian version of this. I mean, like, maybe like proverbs type thing where it's just kinda wisdoms.
Like, if you're in another man's home, don't be the wisest. Don't sit there and try and dominate the conversation and and be the smartest and everything else. And, you know and and then, typically, it's also then gonna give, a a reaction for this that, if this happens, you're gonna soon find yourself in a in a enemy in a enemy territory where nobody likes you, and you're you're the actual fool here now because you thought you were big shit, but you just tried to, you know, play king in somebody else's castle and that doesn't work out well.
So or, preaches against, drinking. So while, Hollywood has painted heathens as being a bunch of drunkards, Absolutely, Odin said Odin's against drinking and getting drunk and even, goes through a couple times. I went to this dwarfs and I got drunk and I lost and I woke up and I'm tied up and helpless and I'd screwed myself over. And so the way you look at Odin then isn't as much religious. So for me, it's more of a figure that I follow in that type of system. So Odin was on didn't start out as the all father. He started out different than a lot of the other gods, and my understandings of gods and beings is different than a lot of other peoples. For me, gods are etheric beings as opposed to titans, and there's not really any good or evil to either side or anything like that. It's all just this system and most people have entirely chosen the etheric side and refused to interact with the other side, and that I think is due to the Abrahamic Pantheon.
But, Odin went and he had all the knowledge of the world and understood that that was not enough. So he went through tests and trials to gain the wisdom of the world, the the full understanding. And this is how he becomes the all father. So he's not the original creator being. That's the all. And the all splits into the all father and the all mother. But at this point, that just balances each other out, nothing really happens. So the all father splits into an etheric side, a fire side, the chaos side, and an ice side or a stability side. And those two things are polar opposites from each other. And so here, the all mother affects the all father.
Although she's not part of it, she takes those 2 polarized sides that are pushing away from each other and pulls them back into each other. And where that destruction happens, where those 2 meet is also then where life forms, where we live in the cosmic egg type. We live in a cosmic egg. And so I don't know who Jesse Barrier is. I think this is John. So I don't know, though. Please answer that and figure out who's what's going on there. So we're in a cosmic egg then. Well, inside that, as a heathen, we had then greater beings or forces, more previous primal forces.
We had a, the great cow, and, why is his name slipping my mind? Too many things going on over here. I apologize. We had the frozen giant and the gray cow. And again, from those 2 coming together where she licks his, the frozen ice, which is in the story very specifically, salt salty ice, it's brine. And so between these things, then she releases milk. And from this, life starts, expanding. Yamir. Yamir, the giant. Holy smoke. But, now from that life, this is where we have gods and tight or giants or titans. And here's where Odin and Vily and they appear. So through that entire explanation, obviously, Odin did not create everything.
He was not even here first. He's he's derivative. But then Odin slays Ymir and uses that to shape the realm that we live in and understand now. And this is all part of his becoming the all father. So also for me, there's also the understanding that the all is all of creation. So in this, again, Odin isn't the all, nor is it the entirety of the all father. So I have no denial that there could be the Abrahamic god, and those people could be derived from that. And there could be other things going on all over. I don't in any way say that, could not be happening.
So religion, I do. We have what's called bloats. And we honor the gods. We have a bond fire, there's usually feasting. In it specifically, there's 3 rounds of passing a horn and you very much, have an interaction with the gods and talk to things. This is a very spiritual time. But again, this is that's something that a lot of what was reconstructed. A lot of people are doing that around. So being left hand path, I kinda do my own thing with a lot of those things. But with the full understanding that the very first person who follows me is right hand path. Like, so how am I gonna be real nasty to right hand path people once the first person that listens or sees it the way I see it.
Like, that doesn't make sense either. So way the way that's gonna end up fitting in society though, for me then is, heathen society was very tribal. And so there wasn't a set way that things were done in any given tribe. In inside the tribe, the tribes were freemen, which does not mean that there was not we had a hierarchy where it was a class a class system. And but in that class system, you could change classes depending on whether you wanted to be a leader or whether you did not. So your your merit was choosing your class, It wasn't a stagnant, I was born into this. It doesn't matter if I'm at all worthy of the position, or I'm much better than the position.
It was very structured in that way there was a Yarl. But on the same token, everybody was a free man. So the only things that really got made into laws were things that everybody agreed on. And if you didn't agree on it, like, say we were gonna, they were gonna go do a rating party or something. If you didn't want to go, you didn't have to go. You're a free man. You want to go, you get to split in everything that gets gained in that and you're gonna get left behind in the advancements that come from this. But, that's your choice, bro.
So they were very small societies, extraordinarily strong people that was had a hard time, unifying as an entire group that was their downfall at the end of it. Although the society thrived and flourished, was extraordinarily hard for them to overcome, obviously, the Abrahamic, acts, which was some could even say that, the Christian God was made up entirely by the Greeks in order to subsume the Northern Europeans. And that was entirely, made up, and it's all just derivative from the Abrahamic system, which you can just truncate down. For me, it's all just one thing, and that's from one tiny region of the world. So which I think that some of the things that that is in their teachings are going to apply to that area of the world and not apply to people that live in a mountainous region. Now I think where a lot of the confusion comes in is because when they tried to pull that northern European people into the fold, Alexander the great style, they started just letting the other religions take place, and they just started kind of morphing them in doing that. So you see a lot of Northern European practices brought into the Christian communities anyways.
So a lot of what I would, look at for my moral sets, they aren't gonna vary a lot of times from the Christian moral sets. I I am more if you looked at it politically conservative leaning, like Marcus, I would have to say. But, I think, again, like I said, that's there's a heavy borrowing, not even just in the, culture, but in the actual religion itself, like, the trinity is not actually in the bible, but the trinity is absolutely part of heathen culture. And they slip that in. And even their Christmas, you look, most Christmas symbology is heathen, including there's even a lot of people, if you do deep study, let's say the cross in and of itself is a is a heathen symbol and has never been a Christian symbol. The Christian symbol, if I'm not if I recall, was 1 fish, 2 fish, and a key. The
[00:50:06] allen marcus:
key The earliest Christian symbol being an anchor having to do with fishing and sort of the seafaring groups. So, again, being a specific group of people in a specific period of history is very interesting. If you are looking at the origin of Christianity, big c Christianity, big c church, big r, like capital r, organized religion. So then when the, origin of Christianity sort of happens and people sort of formalize it under this idea of Peter being the rock of the church, and then we get into Catholicism with the pope. And then that sort of ties into, like, a societal structure in terms of government and control, and it goes beyond a set of, moral instructions for community members to live together with the least amount of struggle and conflict.
So then that's really where we circle back to in in terms of the debates with religion. The debate always has to deal with the question of, if religion is a moral thing to keep people together, then why throughout history are the biggest examples of the use of religion being the group of people under a religious banner push towards war and violence. You get the crusades especially and inquisition and the shapings of boundaries and borders of actual countries having influenced by this push of religious sectarian violence.
[00:51:57] Benjamin Balderson:
So as a heathen, I will quickly finish. As a heathen then, one of our big and I'm glad you gave me that little motivator because I forgot that part. Hospitality is actually the biggest part of the Havamal and of the when it you when you split up the Havamal. And so the hospitality section, these people lived in a mountainous, rugged region where it's very icy and cold. And so if a person shows up at my door, I'm obligated, although there's not a penalty that's necessarily ascribed, but I'm obligated to give that man first or woman or whatever.
1st place by my fire. I'm obligated to give them a bowl of some hot food and a cup of so and a cup of drink, you know, get them warm, get them dry. Doesn't even matter who you are. It doesn't have a a color, a creed, a religion. If a if a if a wanderer shows up at your door, you take care of them. And so I think that, and then when you look at the the few penalties that we had, the the greatest penalty that was typically applied was to kick you out of society where you're no longer have access to any of those things. If anybody's caught selling to to somebody that's been outlawed from society, then they're in trouble. So they drive those people away. So literally not being able to live in this symbiotic system of of people that are helping each other was the biggest penalty.
So that I that I think ascribes toward a lot of their mentality in how they lived. So less lawful, but more but very heavy on the helping other people. But also then there's a whole section of, like I said, when you're out in the world, which includes host rights. So how you act as a guest, which don't go into other people's houses, act in a fool, and being a dickhead. And so all those things are, you know, pretty, solid. Like, when I first read the Havamal, I picked it up and I was like, wow. Did I write this? Like, this is crazy. It's just the way I see things.
And that's part of why it wasn't even a religious conversion or any such thing for me. It was this is to me, I I live off grid and out in the mountains. So very much people that lived in that type of environment and the way they lived and the rules they live by apply very much to my life.
[00:54:51] John Roeland:
So I'd like to make a distinction between organized religion and what I think is true religion, which is your personal connection or understanding to whatever you believe is the higher source or, you know, the creator or the thing that's sort of, you know, your conscience, I guess. So for me, personally, when I look at all of these different religions, even though I can wrap my mind around the idea that they were perhaps created to manipulate people or to control people, I still find value in basically any book that specifically religious books, that you can find common themes and a sort of underlying truth that sort of is spoken throughout all of them. Now that may be part of the trick to get people to believe in a particular religion, is you have to have some universal truths in there that pull the people in.
But even as an example, prince. He saw the he saw the the riches of the world and all the you know, he had a family, and then he left because he wanted to see the other side, and then he saw the death and the illness. And then he put himself through all these tests, and then ultimately, he he meditates and reaches enlightenment. And to me, I see a parallel there. Now they're from different areas of the world. They're they're different cultures. But there's an underlying idea there that to me is for my religion, I is what I focus on, is those overlapping values and stories.
I mean, because that's a basic story of you as an individual having to go through tests and trials and come out the other end, you know, spiritually enlightened on some level or with some higher level of wisdom, that that's how it's earned. It doesn't it's not just given to you. Right? So, I just would, like, want to make that distinction because in terms of a debate, it might make it kind of hard to actually debate somebody who's just like, Christianity is the way, and this is, you know, what we, you know, what we have to do. And I'm over here like, well, wait a minute. Like, I see the good sides of Christianity, but I also see the good sides of, you know, you know, Islam or, you know, whatever it might be. And those people are gonna be much more staunch in their belief that there's nothing good that can come out of these other religions and that's the enemy.
So to to wrap my little segment up here, I would just say that, again, when the basic premise of Buddhism is to meditate to control your mind, I think that's one of the most valuable things we could introduce to society. And there would be a way to do it to where you're not even talking about a religious figure. It's just the principles that they're teaching are going to help everybody to take a deep breath, calm down, consider what's running through your head constantly, consider what the monkeys are chattering in your mind, Take a minute to listen and know what's going on in your mind, and then be able to push those thoughts out.
So
[00:58:47] allen marcus:
John, are you describing sort of the antidote to fanaticism and fundamentalism? Possibly. Because those are sort of the biggest problems people have in terms of any religious group of people is they'll they'll meet the fanatics and the fundamentalists first. And those people are so, gung ho on conversion or proof that they are, an organization with strength and power. It's sort of a flex of their muscles. That sort of leads towards, again, the sort of implied violence in terms of worldview violence to say that if you don't share my worldview, I cannot have a conversation with you because you are the enemy and I have to debate you. I think what Balderson was saying in terms of the sort of mutual aid where a man shows up on your property and he needs help and charity, you help the guy. You feed him. You give him rest, and then you have a conversation. You say, well, what are we what are we doing now? What are your plans? You know, this is my property. You can't overstay your welcome here, but what can we do to help you along your journey?
That sort of thing. And that's where we get to probably the best argument in favor of organized religion through the the lens of charity. In the history of America, we have, like, FDR, the New Deal, and sort of social security safety nets and these types of things. Before government stepped in, it was private religious institutions, churches in the communities that were responsible for organizing charities and fundraisers and helping people in the community who needed food and water and beds and homes and these types of things. So the charity aspect was the best aspect of probably local religion, shall we say. There's a distinction between organized globalist religion and local neighborly meeting or at the local church because this is where we build our town around, the church, the steeple, this type of thing.
But now today, the way things have played out in this quickening of timelines where religion has become intertwined with politics. So a political affiliation automatically assumes a religious affiliation, automatically assumes so many things about a group of people. It's dividing into voter blocks in America, red or blue. Now it's an election year, and we have to deal with that reality where going to a church to seek charity and human contact and fellowship and love and acceptance, but only if you have the correct bumper sticker and you're supporting the correct candidate and you have this correct political point of view. Did I make a point there? The point of intermingling religion with politics has led to the worst outcomes for everybody.
But the best example and usage of capital r religion in a formalized way was charity before the government said we're gonna do charity better.
[01:02:18] Benjamin Balderson:
Yeah. I would say that the government stepping in and, taking control of that situation actually made people less charitable. I know that I I I in that type of system, I'm all about skipping out on taxes. But when I lived over in Redding, one of the neighbors' houses burned down, and, you bet everybody in the dam and anywhere close showed up with the lumber and screws and nails and labor. And, you know, I had a new house up, boom, like that. You know? That's, that's the way small town living is. Again, this is part of why, when I picked up the Habemaw and read that, I was just like, the way it, read out, I was just like, what?
This isn't even a religion. This is just how you fucking live. And it it's, it's about decency right there. And that really is what we're getting down to with this is is where where do you pick your moral set from this then? And, with the big problem being for most people, if you do not have a religion, then what is driving your moral set? And, a lot of people without think that without it, you can't have one. There is some recognition of utilitarian, you know, which we get into the debate with how that applies Society, obviously, that's gonna have some issues, utilitarian. It, it can be very fluctuating, but I would also say that most well, at least applied so far religious beliefs, as you heard, Marcus talking about with the fanatical, the more fanatical type people, people don't even like them. So, most religions are even very fluctuating. I mean, I don't know if the if the Abrahamics at one point in time killed people because they ate a shellfish or something or not. I don't know.
But I would be real weirded out if I saw somebody trying to eat kill somebody because they ate some crab today. Like and I'm a vegetarian. I don't even eat animals or fish. I'm not a pescatarian. And it would still weird me out, like, if somebody went after somebody to kill them because they ate a crab or or a lobster or whatever. Like, are are you really doing that? So the and and when you look at even just utilitarian or just living by the legal system, also, it fluctuates quite a bit. So if you so then people wanna know you have some kind of at least hardcore based system. But when you look at, even the legal system, well, in America, you take something as touchy and controversial as age of consent for a for a a child.
In America, we're dead set on 18. You go over to Europe, it starts varying, you know, 16, 14, 12, who the fuck knows? Even over in America, it didn't get even they didn't have an age of consent at 16 till 1929, and then the 18 didn't come till much later. So you're talking about less than a 100 years we've had this standard. But absolutely, you'll see people being very religious about if, you know, a girl is under 18, you know, they need to go to prison for the rest of their lives. They can be, you know, they should be taken out and beaten.
Well, that standard has fluctuated quite a bit, and it fluctuates country to country. So it's it that again, with all of those, you don't have a a hard line at the end of it that's been unfluctuating. So I think that's part of where a lot of that debate comes
[01:06:45] John Roeland:
in. One thing I found, interesting kind of more recently reading Daoism is that or the Dao De Jing is that they kind of get into the idea that morality is a human concept and that the way, DAO, is beyond that. So this idea of things being good or bad, which we've talked about on this on this series before, is more of a human construction that obviously we are, like, obsessed about, but that there's a there's a way that you can get into, and it's beyond virtue. It's beyond right and wrong. It's more of an acceptance. You know, the world doesn't need to be fixed. Things are as they are, and you need to look at negative things that are happening as part of the process or what we perceive as negative. Right? The DAO wouldn't even perceive it as negative or as evil.
So, again, for me, getting people to just sit down and ponder over these things is a big part of the battle that we face because too many of us are caught up in the intellectual side of right and wrong, and then picking aside and arguing from that where we all just need to sit down and take a deep breath and, you know, realize that there isn't much we can do, and there isn't much that necessarily needs to be done. More knee more needs to be detached from and left alone. The more meddling that we do, the worse it gets.
[01:08:50] allen marcus:
Yeah. And I would relate that to anyone who's had children or has been a child and they've been raised in a Christian environment, whatever, and they this idea that America is a a Christian nation, and there's a lot of Christian churches everywhere. So in my own history and and seeing other people, you know, my age growing up in in Sunday school with other children and seeing how there was variances in the way that their parents would apply sort of punishments for certain behaviors and how that they would sort of manipulate children to behave in the most favorable way for the parents under their home, this type of thing. So when it comes to sort of training a child in the way you want them to go so they don't depart from you as an adult, this is the argument of nature versus nature, nature versus nurture, where in the specific ideas within Christianity are taught.
They are they're shown. They're displayed. They're taught. They were they are ingrained in young people's minds. And then for them to have to turn 18 and choose what they wanna do when they become an adult. So being raised in that situation, seeing different outcomes for children who are raised in church and then seeing them on Facebook now, you know, and kind of seeing, well, are they are they married? Are they still attending the same church? Have they gone agnostic? Have they gone atheist? Have they remained in it? And anecdotally, the situations are so different for each individual person based off of their personality and situations they've encountered, things that they've gone and personally explored and pushed for.
It's hard to say. So even at the end of life on someone's deathbed where, you know, a pastor or priest may come and talk to them, and they might say, well, you know, you live the majority of your adult life outside of church, outside of religion, outside of faith, outside of confessing your sins and asking for forgiveness each day. But now at the end of your life, you want to accept Christ and reconvert and then go to heaven because that's where you were as a child. But living it out in your adult life, you didn't do these things. But then at the end of life, if you're, you know, on your deathbed and you're given that opportunity to reflect back on your life and then ask for forgiveness and make things right, then you can go to heaven kind of scratching your head?
Does it seem unfair that certain people can get fire insurance at the last possible minute and then go to heaven, but then they don't live that life throughout their entire life seems kinda frustrating to those people who are maybe living humbly and serving the Lord and doing their thing, but then are taken advantage of at every angle. So this is the struggle of any person, we'll say man, who wants to live a moral righteous life, who wants to live according to the bible, but living in a sinful world, a fallen world where no one cares. No no one's going to treat you better because you walk around carrying a bible than if you don't. So it's the way that you are reflecting your behavior and in conversations with people that builds up by certain reputation.
So to say at gunpoint, do you believe in God? Yes. Well, great. All is forgiven. We're gonna put you in this good guys club over here. And then, you know, you're there's gonna be some leeway with forgiveness, and we understand you're struggling with certain addictions and sins and things, but we're gonna give you leeway, and we'll forgive you. And that's okay. And we'll call that the church. We'll call that the fellowship. And then they would say, well, there's the outside world. There's everybody else who's not involved in our church who may be doing their best to raise a family and live and pay their taxes and be a good citizen and follow the traffic laws and stop at every stop sign even if there's no traffic, this type of thing.
So when it comes to small r religion, personal faith, and how you act when no one's watching you, that's really the test of what your actual belief system is.
[01:13:48] Benjamin Balderson:
It's
[01:13:49] John Roeland:
I was just gonna say real quick. It dawned on me the other day that possibly you know, because a lot of people like to attribute that Jesus was talking about taoism, like, I am the way. Tao means the way. And I do think in the idea of Jesus connecting a personal relationship with the creator that does relate to the DAO. You're kind of getting into that. You're getting into alignment with that source or that flow. However, when the story perhaps becomes a bit of a psyop is when, Jesus starts going around calling everybody out who's doing evil.
And it kinda seems like that put us on a path to where we're at now, where everyone's looking for the, the evil enemy and calling them out and, like, you're you're not doing this. You're not. And it just I don't know. It just feels like they've conflated those two ideas that Jesus was preaching Daoism, But really, if Jesus was preaching Daoism, he wouldn't have been so preachy, really. And I I just feel like that that vibe or that action that Christ took has continued, with the church, where it's like you have to point out who's doing evil and who's sinning. And it just leads to a lot of the issues that we have.
[01:15:23] Benjamin Balderson:
So I was gonna pick on Marcus, but then you had to go in there and
[01:15:29] allen marcus:
and cut in. So
[01:15:30] John Roeland:
You can still you can still get him. Come on. Yeah. Oh, definitely.
[01:15:35] Benjamin Balderson:
So the the problem with this is and this is coming again from somebody that's left hand path. The problem with wanting everybody to be left hand path is there are a lot of people that just don't know how to act right. There's even a case to be made that you can look at historical things like the Marquis de Sade. Like, why would all the people all of a sudden start going nuts? Anybody that doesn't know who the Marquis de Saad, he made very sexually explicit pictures and stories. I mean, things that no normal person would wanna do. Talking about things like cutting holes in people because they've already used up the other ones, and they need to use new I mean, really very extraordinarily twisted things.
Now they ended up having to, lock the Marquis de Saad in a cell by himself and ended up having to take away all his writing utensils because the society around was so voracious for this work, and you immediately saw a degeneration of society. And so for as much as we can say that we would want, society that's able to freely do things, and you then start using basically the no harm principle, well and the same thing applies with this utilitarian. Well, if it's not, what's harm then? And for utilitarian, what's good? These are very slippery slippery slopes.
Now taking this middle path, why I started out with the left hand, is fine and dandy for, somebody who is on is gonna has some kind of a chance to be that realized person. But this is honestly the path for a very, very few people. And most people, when they choose a polarity, they choose a good and evil. That's based on the either the their experience, the experience of their peoples, things like that. So there's some kind of a lived experience behind this good and evil and some kind of an understanding, like, for every, time you look in the store and it says some crazy shit, like, don't lick the exposed electrical. Some fucking guy did that.
Like, somebody fucking did that. And and there's the problem, and this is where our society comes to. Like, most, politically, one of the biggest ones right now is everybody's very against the 3 strikes laws and the mandatory minimums. Well, that's easy enough if you've been born post 1990. If if you were born in the seventies, you had to live sometime in the eighties. And if you were in a major city, you remember why the crime bills were a thing. Like, when I went to high school, that we regularly had to get diverted because there was police snipers and crime was real. Murder was real. They called Minneapolis mini murder back then. It was just a thing.
And so the post, nineties crime bills, the the violence, you can look at it. It is just dropped. And I I do understand that some of the, I'm not for the, incarceration the way this country does it. But for the violent parts of those crime bills, it's hard to deny that the violence has dropped down to nothing compared to what it was. So that just again leads you to are some people, are we as a society enlightened and with it enough, and do even some of these people wanna be to not have laws, not have rules, not have enforcement of these. To take a middle path and say that there is no good when people clearly when you give them an option of shit's not evil, they will look at look at the world around you now.
We're in that. We're living that out. They're like, there is no evil as some as some freaking 38 year old dude pretending to be a woman dangles his nuts in front of your kids and reads a story book. Like, he's not hurting anybody. Like, so at some point in time, that middle path just gives you no place to stand either.
[01:20:23] allen marcus:
Right? So to so to say that someone out there is not hurting anyone with their display of freedom of expression of art, it's not hurting anyone, I would ask why have we gotten to this point in culture where we say it's not hurting anybody instead of the opposite to say it's not helping anybody. So who is it helping? Who is that display helping? Who is it empowering? Are they empowering a ruling class of evil people who don't care if you say you believe in God or Allah or Buddha or what they don't care what your beliefs are when you are going along with the program that they've laid out for you, voting, taxes, all of society, you know, 40 hour work week, minimum wage, all of these things that are tied into politics and religion and society and governance.
And we look at what is the United States government doing. They're allowing a Super Bowl. So they're allowing these rituals at a Super Bowl. And then you say, well, it's what is it? It's not hurting anybody. A little nipple slip, Janet Jackson's nipple slip isn't hurting anybody. But then having 20 plus years of the fallout of that, well, what did it what did it lead to? A little nipple with a little sun pierced through it that everybody saw of all young people. I we were in I was in high school at the time. We were all on our computers searching Janet Jackson's nipple on public school computers to try and find it after the Super Bowl. We were all looking for it. That's is that is that temptation? It it's just we're trying to write a paper about it. Right? We we wanna talk about the politics of the fallout, the censorship of the FCC and who's how much is enough fine to pay for this thing. But we were all in this moment united over this transgression and this taboo.
Now what did it lead to? Allowing more promise promiscuity in public displays of the Super Bowl? Has it gone to the point where modesty used to be something that we'd all agree was a good trait? We'd all agree that, you know, wearing covering clothes and respectful clothes, when you go outside to shop for groceries or you go out to dinner, you'd present yourself well. And that was the culture we wanted to live in. Now it seems to say, well, they're not hurting anybody for wearing pajamas and flip flops and shopping at Walmart at midnight in a drunken drug stagger, it's like they're not hurting anybody, but yet they're not helping themselves. They're not helping. They're not contributing to society.
So the the statement that Balderson continues to point out is not everybody wants to be a contributing member of society. Not everyone is capable of self discipline, and not everyone is going to be saved and fixed by religion is a huge point of, well, let's let's point that out and let's figure it out. And specifically in the aspect of like churches giving charity, I have volunteered so many times at different food distributions and charity drives in giving out supplies to people. And then the volunteers would always kind of judge people. They'd say, well, that person is wearing some really nice tennis shoes. I don't think they need the charity because I think they can afford it themselves.
And then another person would walk by and receive whatever vegetables we were handing out or baby diapers or whatever. And then someone else would say, well, you know, every time I've been volunteering at this church for 50 years, and I've always seen this family, I always see the same family showing up and taking and taking and taking, never saying thank you, taking, taking, taking. They never show up to church on Sunday. They never join us for potluck. They never join us for fellowship. They they don't wanna be a part of the group of the church, but you put out free food and they're going to take it. Should we say, well, you know, these church stores are closed for you because you're too rich or because you're not gonna be part of the community or is charity for everybody. When you have a public charity, it has to be for everybody equally. So where does the judgment come in?
[01:25:14] John Roeland:
Just go go full Joel Olsteen on them. Close the doors. Yeah. You know, I think what's interesting for me, honestly, having this discussion is I just realized how much my thoughts are still evolving, and to me, that's my spiritual path. That's my relationship with what I would call God is that I'm constantly having new epiphanies. Maybe I'm going back on something I thought before. But one aspect I wanted to point out is that so, like, the idea of natural law being like being like karma or cause and effect and that, you know, there's this there's this entity or this source that wants us to create this utopia or whatever. I kinda think that's where they they go wrong with that theory.
I think I've come to the understanding that that source, that power is impersonal, and what it allows us to do when we align with it and connect with it and cocreate with it is it allows us to create whatever we want, really. And it's not there's not a lot of judgment on it. It's may maybe it's just necessary for us to learn and to grow and or it's maybe it's just just to let it happen, just to see where it goes. But like where Ben is saying, some of these people need religion. They do just like some people need government, and I think we should let them have it. And if there's those people who wanna step in and govern all of these people, then I I don't think we have that much power to change it because we're not of that mindset to want to be in that position, to be, I I want my guy in power to say this, this, and this, and you have to follow this, this, and this because this is the way.
Right? It's it's, you know, to me, connecting with Daoism and connecting with this idea of these natural laws and how they work. If if if the idea is that we we create such a terrible world that we destroy ourselves, then that's what we do. And that's and that's that's what we chose to do with it, you know, this time around. Because I'm sure it happens over and over again, and there's different outcomes. But, the the other thing I'd wanna tie into that too is just the concept of synchronicity and how that has played into my belief in a higher intelligence.
That there's things that seem to happen in my life that just it can't be a a coincidence. Well, it is a coincidence because it's 2 coinciding incidents. Right? Like, they're related somehow. There's a correspondence between them. But in those moments when they happen, that's, for me personally, the deepest sense of, oh, shit. Like, there there's something there's something trying to show me something. I'll give as an example. And again, maybe this is how our mind works. Maybe we maybe we create this. But a friend of mine, growing up in high school, he passed away, this is years ago, probably 20 years ago, drunk driving.
And, not surprising, he's kind of a wild guy, and we ended up going to his funeral. And me and a buddy of mine who we weren't best friends with this guy, but we were both good friends with him. But we went to a liquor store and my buddy bought a bottle of tequila, casadores, which I had never had at the time. We go over to the the party after the fact and it turns out this is what they were drinking the night our friend died. So that was the first thing. We're like, that's kinda weird. So then we go out back and we're pouring in these red cups. We're pouring shots and we're all in a circle, take a shot. I'm standing with my friend who we went to the the store together and we went to the funeral together and we go and we put our cups down and this huge gust of wind on a totally still night comes through both of us and knocks our cups on the ground. And we go to pick him up, and I just stopped him. And I was like I was like, what?
Like like, it was just and and again, like, maybe that's us making it up, but he knew what I meant when I'd stopped him. And it was like, wow, dude. Like, our 2 cups are the only ones that blew over. You and me are pretty much the only ones that felt that gust of wind. And it just I don't know. I mean and again, maybe people think I'm crazy saying that, but to me, that's true religion. And, you know, the organized stuff is, probably more what we should be talking about. But for my personal experience, those types of experiences are what, make me believe in a higher power.
And in terms of all the books and the organized religions, I feel like it's a simplified version for people to take in and to feel comfort in. And, I mentioned I don't know if I said it on the last episode, but I mentioned like, when my dad passed away, I I remember looking at these people who just had a basic Christian perspective, and it probably made it easier for them to to to believe that my dad was going to heaven and he's gonna be with his, you know, his family. And, it makes it so they don't have to ask deeper questions, I guess.
[01:31:08] allen marcus:
Sounds like you shared a story of a miracle.
[01:31:15] John Roeland:
The miracle of the cazadores.
[01:31:17] allen marcus:
Yeah. That that sort of, intervention, that working with spirits, that sort of thing. The tying in of, like, spirits being alcohol is a very interesting thing. And I would say, like, even within the Christian church, they have the sacrament of communion, And certain churches will say, well, it has to be the best wine. Other churches will say, actually, no. It it can't be alcoholic at all. It has to be grape grape juice, like Welch's grape juice. So no one's getting junk in the spirit. But that's that is where we where I find myself nitpicking specific arguments to say, well, we can't go to that church because they serve communion with actual wine and alcohol, and we don't drink alcohol because we just decided not to drink alcohol for the best. That's the worst aspect of getting into arguments in religious debates about theology and doctrines.
What you just said, John, was the best aspect of living a spiritual life is to live in accordance with the higher power. Call it God. Try that. And then see when you're living well, doing well, treating people well, showing self discipline, you know, committing and then following through, being a basic good human being to other people who treat you well. And the fruits of those, behaviors are more good behaviors from other people. And then if you go the more mystical route and you begin to see the interaction with the unseen spirits, the good spirits, the synchronicities, the things that are miraculous and seemingly impossible, then maybe you found that that was the fire that was fueling a lot of these religious denominations as they started with miracles. They started with outpourings of synchronicities and positive things and feeling good, and people were empowered with purpose to live their lives for the best thing.
Yes. And now, today, that continues to happen, But I don't think that's under the banner of big r religion. I don't think it could ever happen at a corporate institutional worship center megachurch setting. And that's where we push back against Joel Osteen and other televangelists and all these people to say, well, they are becoming the McDonald's and Starbucks of religion, and we are allowing that. So they're not doing any harm to anybody to practice their megachurch religion, but yet seemingly they are. So then is it our job to push back? What do we do?
How do we mix our convictions into our daily life and still have our laundry done and we're fed and our bills paid? Sort of the practical application of it. So when living in community, Christian community or otherwise, even to having a wife and a family and grandparents and people to help you out with these basic chores. That's the best aspect of local, small r can we even call that at this point a religion?
[01:35:08] Benjamin Balderson:
Where we end up coming is is, I'm with Marcus on this. They're just, the the large religions. I think religion honestly needs to be regional. And I think, baked into every religion is, a certain way of living that applies to that region. And that's but I also think that, in that, those are needed. I think those religions are needed. When you, when you say mind control, it's funny because then, you know, you you could say religion or or government even is derogatorily when you say it's mind control, government means mind control. But then in the same token, turn and preach mind control. Like, well, there are just some people that just don't wanna do it, and you don't want to reject all of those people from society where some of those people, we've all met them where they thrive in a structured system and as soon as they even have the small modicum of freedom, they will abuse it. And it's a it's a really interesting thing.
You even look at like that, if you ever seen that movie last night with, Clive I think Clive Owen. And, the guy who takes him, who's a very rigid man, who's very structured, takes this guy, you know, and he's nothing but a little drunkard and has nothing and everybody hates him and he's doing nothing with his life and he puts that kid in structure. And all of a sudden, that kid is like the most honored high knight in the entire realm and his his his honor is unquestionable. Some people, they they without that,
[01:37:09] John Roeland:
they won't do it.
[01:37:11] Benjamin Balderson:
I mean, there are definitely some. And again, I I I I think that a lot of these left hand path, more left hand path, cultures and religions and whatnot that are being pushed today, I think those are only ever made for a few people. I think religion is the the masses are always gonna be for religion's gonna be for them. When you look at it, the the the the mob has never been enlightened. The mob has never made good decisions. The mob has never been who you follow. Well, why is that? So it seems like there's just a large majority of people that without that structure, they cannot seem to make a decent choice that fits in with society. They'll make too many choices that will, you know what? That guy bothers me. I'm just gonna murder him. Who cares? Nobody even likes him. I'm just gonna take his land. Who cares? You know, it's not hurting anybody. Like, you know, there's a lot of people that'll just make a lot of really bad choices.
And you look at California where California's been hell bent on pulling any kind of laws. It's not making the people more enlightened. It's not making it a better place to live. Like, you know, they took away, theft charges for anything under a $1,000, and all of a sudden people are just mass mark murking stores going in and robbing the hell out of them for anything under a $1,000. Like, you go into any store down in the bay or anywhere down there, everything's behind glass. Like, oh, can I get that 5 cent item? Can I get could you unlock the the is this bulletproof? Like, hey.
Oh, the and and there's a lot of stores that at this point, the the society's so bad around these that you see, like, if you look it up, Target's already pulled out of New York, Chicago, Dallas, the bay, like, 3 to Oakland. They're talking about, like, basically any of these major liberal cities where it's, you know, just do what makes you feel good as long as you're not hurting nobody. Businesses are pulling out and fleeing because how do you do business in that? Like, people keep proving, and I think that's why you're seeing such a, hard growth in the orthodox Christianity Even as opposed to these other sects of Christianity, the orthodox in and of itself is growing x, you know, way faster.
And I think it's because a lot of society just looks at people and know, god, if we have a choice, we don't choose well. And I can't disagree with them.
[01:40:12] John Roeland:
You know, one thing I realized recently was, I think I I'd have to consider myself left hand path too just based on my experiences and constantly looking for the next thing. And even if I find something I've I value, I usually move on and keep searching. But, recently, I was, taking my son to this to the the Buddhist temple, and, they have, like, a class for children. And they they have they have some rituals that you do when you go there. You you bow to the Buddha. You you bow to the Buddha. You do, like, we do, like, this certain chant. And I I was remembering where well, 1, the community that I came from, the the natural law community, they just they hate religion. They think religion is the problem. But as I was watching these people doing this ritual, like, I realized the need for it. You know, I mean, I I realized the need for it.
You know, I mean, it but I think there was a time where it bothered me a little bit. Like, why am I bowing why am I bowing to the Buddha? Well, you're really just bowing to your higher self, if you can look at it that way. Or maybe some people do need to bow to the Buddha, like you're saying, Ben. Maybe they need a a symbol for for them to to process what it is they're doing. But I don't I guess I just I found the value in that now because everyone does some type of ritual. If you light a candle and meditate or pray or, you know, pray before you eat or whatever it is, it's you know, we've kind of demonized these things unless it's done. You know, witches can do it, but, you know, the Buddhists can't, you know, bow to the Buddha. But, you know, but a witch can go draw a circle and, you know, do whatever. You know? Like, but, yeah, there's, like, a formality to it, and, also, it is teaching you, sort of how to think, how to control your body, how to calm down and, you know, do a certain pose or hold your hand a certain way.
There's just valuable lessons in all of that, and I think that, you know, I think people should choose what they connect with the most. But I in general, I do think that practices like that are are are valuable.
[01:42:50] Benjamin Balderson:
Basically, teaching reverence and having reverence for something we find today that and I I can't disagree that if it'll the irreverent people that we see today are wow. The the the tips that they will dive to, like, of depravity, I just at some point in time, like, you you've moved out of the realm of religion. You've moved out of the realm of utilitarian. You've moved out of the realm. Like, you're just in a hedonist world where anything that feels good to you in that very moment is what you live for, and and that seems to be society, and it's that obviously isn't working.
So reverence for something needs to be there apparently for people.
[01:43:40] John Roeland:
I wanted to add one more thing that kind of overlapped. So, basically, I'll do every every new moon, I'll do a Yi Xing reading for myself just to kinda get a general feel of what to what to anticipate. And last month, I got one called The Gathering, and it the the passage talked about a family gathering to honor the ancestors. And, basically, the the ritual was you would take a drink, and I don't know if they would like what else was a part of it? But it was basically honoring people who for in your family who have died and basically calling on them to support you or to, you know, give you strength.
And just that right there, I mean, that right there enters you into this little bit of a higher realm than where we are. Right? Like, there's this, you know, there's this higher level where your ancestors go, and they're still looking over you. And it's sort of a good beginning to, spiritual, belief, and I think it would be a really easy thing to do. Like, I'm actually considering throwing a party where I'm like like, I don't know. Let's make it like how they do it in that, you put put everybody on the, you know, and, like, light some candles and just pay homage to the people in our family who have passed. Because, I mean, honestly, in in this society, I mean, sometimes my mom will wanna go to the cemetery and go see my dad, but it's like, to me, I don't find a lot of meaning in that.
Right? I'd rather sit around with people who knew him and talk about him and invite him to come to come join us. Right?
[01:45:37] Benjamin Balderson:
Now do you feel do you think though that part of the reason that you don't feel any reverence is because you're not actually connecting with your dad? Where in today, when you go to go see him, as we've learned in, a lot of people learn in the more recent effect events about energy fields and things, when you're looking at heathen and pagan societies, a lot of them had a lot of reverence for their, ancestors, heathens included. So a lot of the practices included either burial mounds or something of that nature where the literal bones, which are giving off an energetic signature are, only so far from your person.
Where now you're going and this person's been encased in this box and sealed tight and dropped specifically 6 feet into the ground
[01:46:38] John Roeland:
and Mhmm. Up
[01:46:40] Benjamin Balderson:
and you're not actually making that connection with that person. Was there a big difference in these societies where ancestral, what they would today term ancestral worship was part of their lifestyle is that burial, the way they're doing it now, is what's stopping that connection and actually created an entire break in that whole tradition. And is there, scientific basis behind it given again what we're learning, about the energy fields and understanding that through, epigenetic memory, you're just gonna be tying to them remains. And if you're feeling them, when you even look at the Catholics, it's not even considered as, altar unless it has a reliquary, which a reliquary is a bone of, saint, some type of a saint's bone. So there's a recognition that inside the bone, there is some type of energy even in Catholics and other religions.
So is it the fact that it's been buried and locked away to such an extreme that you can't actually make an energetic connection? Do you think that that's possibly why you don't feel that reverence in that situation?
[01:48:03] John Roeland:
Yeah. I think that's possible. I think maybe I'm also sort of resisting the the norm of, oh, I have to go here to pay homage, and you go to this place, and it's, you know, it's a Catholic burial ground. He's in a he's in a plot on a wall,
[01:48:23] Benjamin Balderson:
which apparently question again in the in the pagan heathen style, you're assuming my my dad's still alive. But if my dad was or my grandfather, my grandfather would be right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Exactly. Yeah. I mean go to a Catholic thing. I would go over to the backyard where we have
[01:48:42] John Roeland:
our ancestors' remains are. Right. Yeah. I think I've always been more well, if I wanna talk to my dad, I can talk to him. I I do have that spiritual belief where if I but but I will say I don't do that often. You know? I I don't, like, make an effort to talk to my dad. So that might be that might be a part of it. So I've never really considered that.
[01:49:09] allen marcus:
These are bringing thoughts to mind where I'm considering that most families in America probably don't see each other unless there's a wedding or a funeral. And then the the function of big r religion, organized religion, a church as being the meeting point for a family to have a wedding and then at some point a funeral. So that has all the the tradition of what are we doing with our burials. And in small towns, back roads, you'll see a church, and you'll see all the farmers buried in the field, and you'll see all the headstones. They were all local. They were all working together.
And that that seemed to work for them. Now, fast forward a few years, feminism, putting women to work, and then everyone's becoming atomized and individualized where they have to do they have to make their own way. So they have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. They have to go to college and then pay for their college and expect to find a job and then get their own car, their own apartment, their own Netflix subscription. Everything has to be on their own terms, which pulls every fabric of a society and a family apart where it's almost like this show of, success to say, well, I'm not supported by my parents. I'm, I'm living independently.
But that's sort of like the smack in the face to say, well, more people fail trying to live outside of their family and their generations of grandparents and the family estate and the family trust and the the home that they've built and the land that they've built up around themselves. So to leave that and to have nothing to your name, no savings, no equity, no value, no credit score, and then to try to get a car on your own, well, you need to have a cosigner on loans and cosigner on mortgage. So that just shows how there are certain families, wealthier families, who understand the importance of families and respect for family and tradition, where the average lay person being, you know, at the bottom of the socioeconomic tax bracket, being constantly told that if you try a little harder, if you go to college, if you get an education, if you become a janitor and you clean those toilets, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna rise up in the ladder. You're gonna rise up in the ranks. That's sort of this working class, which brings up the question of, is religion, capital r religion, or local church for the working class?
And then the ownership class, the business owners, they go to a separate church together? So who is benefiting from this organization of having family generations, having respect, reverence, and sincerity for parents, grandparents, and extended family. And there's a, a biblical idea of, like, honor your father and your mother. Now today, a lot of young people will say, my mother and father were not honorable people, so I can't honor them because they were addicted to drugs. They were addicted to alcohol. They're addicted to shopping. They didn't show me how to live, whether or not they went to church or not probably is beside the point. But to have a low trust society where from birth, children are not honoring their parents because their parents aren't raising them well. I don't know if that means bringing them to church or not, but to not honor parents, to not respect leadership because the leadership themselves are not earning trust and respect from people.
I don't know if the solution is religion, returning to old time religion, returning to fundamental Christianity. What we're in now doesn't seem to be working. People seem to want to be in a separation of church and state, living essentially atheistically, materially without a spiritual dimension, and that's not working. So all of this that I'm I'm speaking towards is saying we've had systems in the past that have worked, that have gotten us physically to this point, the generations, our grandfathers, and their fathers in the matriarchal line as well. But now at this point, and maybe due to religion, specifically Christian end times prophecy, to say that there will be in end times where everything is just going to crumble and go into chaos, and it has to collapse.
And then there will be this reset in the form of a rapture that happens where the Christians who say, yes. I believe in God. Go to heaven. Leave all the sinners on earth so they can die and then eventually go to hell. That sort of thinking has not gotten to us a point where we are invested in improving infrastructure and family structures because it's all going to hell in a handbasket. So then, realistically, in the world we live in today with the financial aspects being what they are with government and politicians and corruption everywhere, if people are now swinging back and looking for a savior in the form of a president or a religious leader, which might happen to be 1 and the same guy or girl or woman. I I don't know. I'm not assuming anyone's gender in 2024.
We've had all sorts of craziness happen. So to have everything seemingly inverted, the opposite of all sort of religious values. And then the reality that there are people searching for fellowship and community and churches, but there's also this fear of Christian nationalism and organizing and any sort of fundamentalist group be being labeled like a terrorist cell or a cult or something. Now moving forward, how do we as individuals find community that has a spiritual aspect that might be small or religion so that we can work together with all the aspects of what it means to be alive.
Where does this lead?
[01:56:33] Benjamin Balderson:
Well, I would state that the church is the one that broke the family thing with, the Catholic church coming in and their ban on what they what they, termed incest is one of the first things that broke up these communities and these families. So I would have to say a 100%, the church kind of the church brought that on is what brought that on for a lot of people. Where this having this worldwide church is what really did it.
[01:57:07] John Roeland:
Well, I was thinking that with what, you know, how Ben was you were talking about a cast system. It it it does seem that at some point, the for lack of a better term, the rulers or the ruling class, that they did make a determination that, hey. There's just this percentage of the population that just needs government, needs a belief system. They don't want to control their own minds. They need their minds to be controlled, so we're gonna give them religion. What's interesting is that that's now kind of gone to scientism and Technocracy. And I I I guess I'm posing the question of why that changed. Was there too much of a pushback against organized religion?
But, you know, obviously, the science that they're they've given us is totally just as unbelievable as any religious story. So, I find that interesting because, I mean, you know, in my story where I I, you know, lost my religion, but I kept pieces of it, I didn't lose my spirituality, My sister went full atheist. And, I mean, for her and I throughout our lives, it's been it's been a battle just in terms of even being able to relate because she basically is void of any spirituality. And I'm constantly finding these synchronicities and things happening in reality and, you know, trying to point it out to her. I don't even really try anymore.
But, yeah, to her, everything's been solved. Man is superior, and she has a reason for why it's good to be moral. You don't need a god to be moral. I can't think of the word that she always uses. It's not it's not oh, what's the word? It's something about that it somehow benefits the it benefits us biologically to be moral.
[01:59:27] allen marcus:
Text her and ask her.
[01:59:29] John Roeland:
I know. It starts with an a. It starts with an a. Give her a call.
[01:59:32] allen marcus:
She'll have to tell you again.
[01:59:35] John Roeland:
Yeah. Right. Anyway but I guess it's interesting to me that it shifted that even though we can say those people there's a certain amount of people who needed religion. At some point, they needed something different. They need you know? And the and the the powers that we continue continue to give them different versions of government or, you know, mind control for them to chew on.
[02:00:05] Benjamin Balderson:
Well, I think where the problem comes in is is that they tried to make a one size fits all for too large of an area. Now my easy example for this even on a governmental, level And the religion is is I understand that the when they say separation of church and state, the idea that your religion isn't going to affect the way you view things is ridiculous. What they mean is is you can't strictly make laws based on religion and and keep other religions out. Now there's gonna be laws that that one religion's gonna think is good, and one is gonna think is bad. And because of your culture, you guys are gonna vote on the one that you guys think is good, and then that's gonna almost make it a religious law. But then there's a utilitarian cast to it behind it, which bends toward the actual law in and of itself because you couldn't make it based on the religion. You had to have a utilitarian reason to do it. So that's really where the separation of church and state comes in.
Yeah. And understand that when these people that came over, one of their motivating thoughts was the the what we were taught were religious extremists, and when we were in school were actually people that were trying to escape. So hen king James, before king James, there was the Geneva bible, for quite some time, and there was a few other translation bibles, and jeez. And, the king came in, outlawed every other bible, including the Geneva bible. There was a Geneva bible that was mid 1500, I think, and then there was a 1599 that the church, got behind where the church made some alterations into it.
Well, he took all that away, made it illegal. So when they came over the United States, what they call the pilgrims bible or the the, the bible that was originally from this country was, that bible and their bible had been outlawed and the King James bible forced. So that was all, you know, very heavily on the mindset of these people. So it's not that they weren't religious people, it's that they the king had just decided his own religion and had his own book written, and forced that over everything else. So that you've gotta have more of an understanding of the historical, surroundings to the measures people.
Obviously, these people are gonna have religion built into their decisions if you're religious at all. Now where the twisting came in, and I believe that this was, there's a few different routes you can look when you're talking about the western world or northern European people. Ever since Christianity, they've had issues, and they've been searching. If you look at it, I would make the case that, because when you look, in today's world, everybody wants to look at, you know, like, t the TV show Vikings where they show the Vikings going to Lindisfarne and sacking a church, and that's the that and they call that the beginning of the Viking era.
Pre Viking era, a long time. The Christians have been messing with the Vikings and cutting down their sacred forests for years. So heathens had things like Irminsil, which was a sacred tree, and, Charlemagne went and cut that down long before the Viking area and slaughtered an entire mass of people. So when you cut when we go and attack their churches later, it's like, oh my god. They're attaching our religious things. I don't know why. They're so bad. It's it's a ridiculous nonsense thing. But all around, you these things need to remain regional in my opinion.
And the going back to the California thing, Northern California, the culture and the people are entirely different than Southern California. So if you get from Sacramento South, everybody votes one way. If you get from Sacramento North, they all vote another way. So because the large mass of the population, the major cities are all from Sacramento South, which is 5 hours from the northern border. So we're not talking about a tiny little area. We're talking about the size of a normal state is left without any political power or any say so whatsoever because that's all been taken away by the people who live in the city. Now you take something so simple as the gun control issue.
If you're living in the city, it's easy enough to think the only reason that somebody would ever have a semi automatic rifle is because they're killing somebody. And they're trying to shoot people. In their minds, if your only other reason to possibly shoot a gun is you went out in the forest and climbed a tree and sat there and shot a deer with a scope and blah blah blah like that. They can't possibly imagine a rampaging bear charging through your through your your land, killing animals, and and tearing up your stuff and coming after people. And I don't wanna sit there and break my gun real fuck.
Like, yeah. You know? You you wanna just start pulling the trigger, and and you wanna sling a lot of lead really fast till that giant beast of a thing or mountain lions. And I personally have chased bears off my property, mountain lions Like, Like, why would anybody ever need to defend against that? So their entire mentality is different. Their entire life is different. So when you're looking at whether it's politics or it's religion, Again, in the heathen religion, for us, somebody would die if you turn them away from your door. Another half an hour down the road, they could freeze to death and be dead.
Like, that that doesn't apply in Hawaii. Like, why would they need that in their system? Oh, well, if you turn him away, he's just gonna pick some papaya off the tree over there and go hang out by the ocean. We'd be alright. Like, yeah, it's not the same living situation. So whether it's religiously or politically, in my opinion, to have these large, large territories, it just doesn't work. I think that's never gonna be a resolved issue.
[02:07:18] allen marcus:
Yeah. That's exactly where I'm thinking in terms of settling in America. The pilgrims show up. They're over there. They're on the coast. They're building their cities, and they build their universities. They build their theological seminaries in their Ivy League colleges, their universities. They train those people, and they all kinda stay there. Now when people with the manifest destiny decided that they were gonna take over the entire continent from sea to shining sea, People are moving west. And because of this regional regionalism issue, you get people, you know, shoving themselves into ghettos in New York City because that's very regional. But as the population grows and expands, they have to separate that to spread out and they have to move west. So as they're moving west and with the history of Christian churches with bibles and Christian churches, you have sort of this first generation in America who have attended the the the seminary's the schools. They've established that.
And then they kind of go a little bit west, but not all the way west because their family and their heritage is in, you know, New York City or Boston or wherever these established cities are. So those people that were pushed out, the outlaws, shall we say, the criminals, the people that were looking for gold and wealth and other things who didn't have a family attachment, they were moving west. And the further west they went, they they set down some roots. And then some other people said, okay. Well, we're not welcome here in this church or in this town, and they'd keep going west. But as that sort of drift kept moving west, you would find that the the pastor, the minister, the priest, the the the guy who was the religious figure, who would do the weddings and the funerals, he hadn't gone to theology school.
So he wasn't sticking to a strict doctrine according to a Catholic church or a Lutheran church. He wasn't affiliated with that. He might have had a father who was and through the grapevine, word-of-mouth and some literature and documents would get an idea of what a pastor would do. So you'd have a strict Lutheran church. You'd have a strict Catholic mass. But further west, they didn't have cathedrals. They didn't have those churches. They had smaller tents and revival meetings, which led to this idea of a basic distillation of Christian belief. You're a sinner. You have to ask for forgiveness. If you're not forgiven before you die and you're not a Christian, you go to hell. So you wanna become a Christian because there's fire and brimstone and Satan is real, and he's the adversary.
So you'd have this emotionalism built up in a tent revival meeting, and then people will start handling snakes and they start drinking poisons And then wanna look for the miracle aspect to prove that God is in this place under this tent. And the man who's on the platform, who's leading this church, is a man of god through these miraculous, abilities to drink poison, handle snakes, and not get bitten, and all these things. So with that ones are my favorite. Right. Right. Handling the snakes, doing the crazy acrobatics, putting on a real wild west sort of show to people who are just miners and workers and not thinkers and people who are going to colleges because they hadn't built them yet.
So that's sort of what middle America is. It's it's these people who were so far away from actual Lutheranism and actual Catholicism that they didn't follow the strict doctrine teachings. They didn't care if they were ordained. And in the church, especially, like, the Catholic church going back to Peter who built the who built the church upon the rock, who would then lay hands on the next apostle, who would lay hands on the next apostle. So you have that organization that passed on that, and it's really the Catholic church. Torch.
[02:11:31] Benjamin Balderson:
Say it again. Kinda like the Olympic torch?
[02:11:34] allen marcus:
The Olympic torch ceremony is the sort of continued legacy of we're lighting this fire here, and this fire is gonna spread to this other place. What I'm describing in terms of, like, America today and how it got to where it is with all of the churches, different denominations, They've split. They've split. They've split. They've split. They've split. They've done their own thing. And then they go to the government and file file a 5013c or some sort of tax form to say, well, we are recognizing ourself as a church. Okay. That's the first step. 2nd step is having the government recognize you as a church, but there is no recognition from the Catholic church. There's no recognition from the Lutheran church. So you have this idea where in America, anybody can start their own Christian church, do their own thing, and it can be a nondenominational Christian church.
It can be a small r church locally. That's a good thing. There are benefits to that. But recognizing the fact that within the Christian church itself, it doesn't agree with itself. It's not one thing. And that speaks to the point of not having a one size fits all government, not having a one size fits all capital or religion for everybody, but needing to be local, knowing your neighbors, and in good faith, attending a faith community with them in agreement is probably the best answer because that's how it worked in the past. And that's how it's gonna work today, and that's how it's gonna work in the future, probably.
So the function of religion to bind families together to then have these sort of tribal communities of fellowship of people in a small local setting has always been the most effective. I don't know why that's sort of seen as the worst thing to do, maybe because they don't have the biggest sound system and the best worship band, and they're not, like, Hillsong level quality. So to have to say, well, you know, we have to do this thing ourselves. We have to live our lives ourselves. We have to do it ourselves. Getting back to fundamentals is very inspiring to people who are saying, oh, what is my purpose? Well, your purpose is to live the best life possible.
How do you do that? And then the question becomes, well, to what degree does religion play into this? Probably not a whole lot. But the personal faith story of healing and redemption and love and reverence for your neighbor seems to be what the essential gospel message was at some point. And that's what was instilled in me by my parents. And to not disrespect them is to say, that's probably what I'll continue with because that's what I'm familiar with. So despite all the anecdotes of, well, it didn't work in that instance or that instance or that instance is because people are under this selfish act of there's not enough to go around, so I need to get mine first and cut the other guy off.
That's that's not what we do in a in a in a family or in a community. That's what we do if we're at war against everybody. So are we at war, and how do we live in this warring factions, post apocalyptic, mad max world that we seem to be finding ourselves in.
[02:15:35] John Roeland:
Yeah. I would, just a few, I'd say probably my my final words so I don't start repeating myself too much. But I would say, like, in the image of, like, passing the torch, what what exactly does the torch represent? What are we passing? What is it that is valuable about religion that we're trying to pass on? To my understanding, the value is to get somebody to open up to something higher than themselves, to a to a a realm higher than just this material realm. And I feel like we're at such a point in history where probably the best way to do that is sort of, by not telling people that's what you're doing.
So I think that's why I connect a lot with, Buddhism and Taoism because, again, Buddhism is the whole point of it is for you to find this higher this higher self, this Buddha mind, and that anyone can achieve it. And, where the other to me, a lot of the other religions are very much, based around, like, the story, and you have to believe well, especially Christianity, you have to believe in Jesus, and you have to, you know this is how you get saved, and there's all there's all these, like, kinda convoluted reasons for why we think this is important.
Meditation, contemplation, controlling your mind, controlling your thoughts, being mindful, that's the beginning. That's the entryway. That's the initiation into this higher way of thinking, which I think is the value of religion. I guess I'd have to call it lowercase r religion. The the the real, like, bond with God, the bond with nature, the bond with the spiritual realm. So I've just just wanted to add that as basically my my closing words, except I did wanna say, Confucius says a cardboard belt is a waste of paper.
[02:18:06] Benjamin Balderson:
That is true. I, where I'm from, Confucius say don't eat yellow snow. It's pretty pretty Confucius is wise.
[02:18:22] allen marcus:
So
[02:18:24] Benjamin Balderson:
I guess for me, I I, my big takeaway on the entirety of the thing is I don't see any one size fits all religion. I don't see any one size fits all politics. Even if I you, look at the founding of our country, there was a heavy emphasis on that it was a a a union of states and that the states retained the vast majority of the power. And if you look, the states on that side of the country are freaking tiny. I mean, wow. You can drive across to half of them in less than an hour, I swear. Like, you're paying toll bridges at the state borders, like, every 15 minutes. You're like, damn. I couldn't even smoke a joint. Holy cow. How is this so fast? You know? So these were really small regions, and the the focus was put on the states itself with basically more of a loose confederation that maintained heavy diplomacy and defense together.
Where now we're today where we see so many more problems, the shift of the shift of power has happened, and the federal, system now holds most of the power. Same thing with religions where it's become nationalized, world in worldwide for a lot of these. This is where I just see it being too many problems. I I feel like, my culture is is is has function better than the vast majority. But I just don't know that that's a prescription that I could hold out for everybody and even in the culture that I'm that, my people are from. It was tribal, so that was not something that was while most tribes were followed on, there was it's it's a pagan pantheon. You know? So, and I apologize. We didn't get into the part where, about why the religion's changed and scientism and things have become the new religion, and because that's a 2 hour show all by itself that delves back into the, heavily into the Jews.
And, where feminism and a lot of those things, when you look at the occult that they use, the new age movement, all those things, it's always Kabbalistic. They've consumed a lot of other names, but they don't follow any other things. They they'll display their gods like Pokemon cards, but they don't follow any other things. Cabalism is basically their entire basis. So that's an entire conversation all on its own. And I think that was probably on purpose. Not that I think the Christian, religion in my opinion was beneficial at all. Although neither are you 2 are particularly Christian, but when we are against somebody on that, from my perspective, this was always the, end result of that religion because anytime you have somebody that's there paying the debt for your sins and that you were never good enough, It's such a disempowering, demeaning religion to start out with, in my opinion, just the very notion of somebody paid your debt to now you're good. You're a saved person, but this other person that may have lived a good life, that actually worked hard at being a decent person.
You know, it's nothing about that. It's it's just about are you on team Jesus? Like, that that to me is just the most ridiculous notion. So, I think this is the natural consequence of that in religion anyways, But, I do think there was a hard corruption that was put in, but again, that would take a whole couple hours to to delve through that entire thing. So while and I and I would definitely represent my, culture and religion and say that I think that that's the way things should be ran, I can't a 100% at all be positive that I think anything any one prescription in any way, shape, or form covers the entire country or world or even state Or county. Or even the county. The so I don't know about that.
[02:23:19] allen marcus:
Yeah. Closing thoughts here. There's so much more to be said. It's not a comprehensive argument for every little thread that we target. And this idea of there needing to be a higher power, I can agree with that. I certainly see that in my own life. That's paid dividends. That's beared fruit, certainly. And in terms of introducing statistics, in terms of people who recovered and have done well, recovered from drug and alcohol abuse or any sort of sexual addiction or any sort of sinful lifestyle. Those people who have gone through specific Christian treatment programs have had better success.
So numbers wise, even including Alcoholics Anonymous or the AIA, AIA, those people who say, you know, there's a higher power, and I need to surrender myself to a higher power to not say that, you know, I can do everything on my own has led to people having better outcomes. And what we found tonight through this discussion with elements of debate is the need to be flexible, to be in good faith, to be, listening, to respond. And that's sort of where this idea of love and compassion comes in. To love fellow man and to trust them, but verify them with the words they're saying to say that instead of someone just walking around with a Bible and saying, I'm a a Christian. Trust me.
I'm a pastor. Trust me. I'm a politician. Vote for me, and your water's gonna be free of fluoride or toxicities. It gets back to localism, defeating globalism. We have this problem of a one world government, a one world religion, a one world economy that is not working. We knew that going into it. We know that in the middle of it and getting through that, the solution being localism, appealing to a higher power to say there is a spiritual dimension to things. We're not just brains with chemical activity that makes us attracted to certain people, and our sexuality becomes our personality, becomes our religion, becomes the thing that leads us to life to say that there's a higher power, there's a higher purpose, and there's higher ideals to live for, which would probably be a family and children and building an estate and land and planting apple trees and fruit trees and then giving that on to a legacy is probably the point of living.
And if we can return to that and leave capital r religion aside and follow the way that works, I think that we will be living well and better than a majority of people. And by bearing fruit, there will be jealousy where people will say, hey. That seems to be working. Can you teach me what's going on over here?
[02:27:00] John Roeland:
Hey. I texted my sister. It's altruism.
[02:27:08] Benjamin Balderson:
So the problem with altruism being that, again, this is the good. And when you say the good, like, if you go and look at most people in these major cities where they've the largest clusters of people that have completely lost their mind reside, they're being good to each other. They wish the best for each other. And I think that in a in having these debates at all in humanity, the first thing that people need to understand is nobody's like, I'm evil. You know, everybody's altruistic. Like, nobody's doing no. I mean, I'm sure that throughout history, somebody's existed that enjoyed being a douche, But even the ones that usually, even the ones that we consider evil, they just see it the path different than you. They still want the most benefit in their mind. They in their mind, they're taking the most beneficial path.
And they're not like, I'm just destroying to destroy. They're not, you know, like a 5 year old kicking over a sand castle.
[02:28:15] John Roeland:
Yeah. The definition, the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. So I guess doing it without any thought of, you know, you're gonna get, better karma or you're doing it because you're following some code or something like that. So, anyway, just wanted to throw that in there. Good talk, you guys. That was a that was a deep one, and I I I keep learning more, like I probably say, every week. So,
[02:28:54] Benjamin Balderson:
I said I I I can't wait till personally. I I get a little more pushback than I do, but, just to because I also want to have some of those moments. You know, like, where I'm I'm like, oh, shit. I need to shore this up. This isn't quite
[02:29:11] allen marcus:
We figured that you being a heathen in a Christian nation every day is a struggle and persecution for you. Right. Right. You figure I get it up. We're trying to go easy on you.
[02:29:23] Benjamin Balderson:
I I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And I appreciate your altruism, everyone.
[02:29:28] allen marcus:
Thanks for the kind comments.
[02:29:30] John Roeland:
Yeah. Definitely. And leave some, leave some comments after the fact too. If you guys have any questions, we will start going through those and and addressing those.
[02:29:41] Benjamin Balderson:
Yes, sir. And, we're about to get to where we're gonna start asking some other people on and getting down to the nitty gritty of it, I think. But, absolutely, this has been a gas, guys. I thank you guys again. This has just been wonderful.
[02:29:58] John Roeland:
Alright, everybody. You guys have a good night.
This is not the first time we've had audio issues.
[00:00:09] John Roeland:
It'll happen again.
[00:00:11] Benjamin Balderson:
I'm watching I'm listening to the Yeah. Go inside. I feel fairly comfortable. It's not the last. I'm not hearing sound, John, unless that's on purpose.
[00:00:35] John Roeland:
Thing. That's the defining characteristic of nothing is that it doesn't exist. So what are we talking about? Either you think it's God, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph and science can't prove or you think it's nothing something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph and science can't prove. But I think we can all agree, if nothing if your nothing sometimes spontaneously erupts into everything, that's a pretty goddamn magical fucking nothing, you guys. And ask ask the nothing people, what happens when you die? They'll tell you, nothing. You go into nothing. I'm like, you mean you merge back with your creator?
That's heaven, bitch.
[00:01:31] Benjamin Balderson:
Hell. Welcome back to deliberating dudes. That's hilarious and an excellent, choice on tonight's topic. Tonight, we're gonna discuss religion, and then how that pertains to the society around us. But, good to see you guys.
[00:01:54] John Roeland:
Good to see you, Ben. I'm John Rowland. Good to be here with the Liberating Dog Face Dudes.
[00:02:03] allen marcus:
I'm Alan Marcus here with Delivering Dog Faves Dudes. Alan Marcus. Alanmarcus.com. It's a real web page. There's a couple pages on there where we share the podcasts for Weaving Spiders Welcome and Deliberating Dog Face Dudes. So you can get the audio there. And there's also some added information, show notes, x chart, and that sort of thing. Trying to keep up with that as best as we can. If you're appreciating that, let me know, and I'll we'll keep it up.
[00:02:36] Benjamin Balderson:
And I'm Benjamin Balderson from also from Weaving Spider's Welcome and, Odin's Alchemy and guest on a whole lot of shows. But, currently, just on, delivering dog face dudes and Weaving Spider's welcome.
[00:02:57] John Roeland:
Good to see you guys this evening. So we decided this week we're gonna have a discussion about religion and, started off a little vague in terms of what exactly we're gonna talk about, but we did discuss the fact that a lot of these debates shows that we watch or broadcast that we watch. There definitely is a religious perspective that people come to these debates with, and, in some cases, discussing how religion may be implemented in society to make it better or, improve or solve some problems. So we're each of us is gonna investigate our own experience with religion and kind of talk about where we land at the present moment and, how that may apply to, problems that are in the world and if it could be a solution to any of those problems.
And then we'll, you know, maybe push back on each other. I'm sure Ben is gonna talk a lot of shit about my religion. No. Just kidding. I thought a good way to start off, you know, definitions are a good way to good way to, get things rolling, as they say. So Ettom online, break down the etymology of the word. It says c 1200 religion religion, state of life bound by monastic vows. Also, action or conduct indicating a belief in a divine power and reverence for and desire to please it. From Anglo French religion, old French religion, piety, devotion, religious community, and directly from Latin, religionum, nominative religio, respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods, conscientiousness, sense of right moral obligation, fear of the gods, divine service, religious observance, a religion, a faith, a mode of worship, cult, sanctity, holiness, in late Latin monastic life.
This part is something that I've seen come up a bit where the word actually comes from. It says this noun of action was derived by Cicero from religere, r e l e g e r e. Go through again in reading or in thought from re again and legare, read, so to reread. However, popular etymology among the later ancients, Servius, Lactantius, Augustine, and the interpretation of many modern writers connects it with religare, to bind fast, via the notion of place an obligation on or bond bond between humans and gods. In that case, the re would be intensive. Another possible origin is religions careful opposite of negligence.
So and I'll read the final paragraph because it's short. In English, the meaning particular system of faith in the worship of a divine being or beings is by 1300 the sense of recognition of and allegiance in manner of life perceived as justly due to a higher unseen power or powers from the 15 thirties. I'll say just real quick before you guys comment that, you know, I, you know, had heard that it's religare, which means to bind again, which means, you know, the interpretation that I had heard was it's to hold you back, to thwart from forward progress. But over time thinking about it, I kinda thought, well, to have a bond with something is kind of what religion is about. You are you're you're bonding back to the original source.
So, I don't think it has to have such a negative connotation, but a lot of people do read it that way, like, to bind again, to bind, to hold you back. And then the religare, to reread, is an interesting interpretation that, you know I mean, obviously, if you are following a religion, you probably have a religious text and you probably are rereading it over and over again. So it's kind of a connection to the words, you know? The the reading again and again kind of connects you with that bond. And, so what do you guys think about this this definition? Or
[00:07:57] Benjamin Balderson:
Okay. I I I find it very interesting that because with the vagueness of it in a lot of aspects, there's depending on which which one you go with, you know, just like, doing something repetitively, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree that it becomes kinda your religion. You know, like a gym bros go to the gym religiously, and that's and that's the thing that they find, you know, most impressive, and that's what they go around touting to everybody. And that's what they're all about. So, I wouldn't necessarily disagree that this definition with as broad as it is in some aspects really kinda fit some things.
It, also makes very interesting. I think she must have left supper in the oven too long. She also must, it also, leaves open the interpretation for, like, where it it takes somebody that's extraordinarily gluttonous with food. Like, that could be their thing. I've seen people that you hand them food, and they all of a sudden are gleeful. And that's all they talk about is food. That's what they post on their social media or money or status. So it leaves it open for, a lot of different interpretations on some of those anyways.
[00:09:34] allen marcus:
I think that's my favorite sort of folk definition of what religion is, religion having to do with, supper time and maybe some moral fiber and the fiber that binds a community together by eating together, looking at the word yoga, which kind of also means union. So it's this togetherness of a of a community. And for a long time during my college years, when I was shopping for new churches, I would attend all the potluck dinners, and I decided at some point that I didn't really care what the belief structure was, what the doctrine was, but rather I would choose the church based off of who was the most generous in their potluck dinners and serving me food afterwards. So I think that's the biggest benefit of any sort of religious gathering is that I am well fed.
[00:10:26] John Roeland:
Yeah. That makes sense.
[00:10:28] allen marcus:
It's hard to disagree on a full stomach. We can all agree, hey. Let's just go or separate and take a nap.
[00:10:35] John Roeland:
Yeah. If you go to the Buddhist temple, though, they're vegetarian, so might not.
[00:10:42] Benjamin Balderson:
I I I do have to admit, I have always admired the Christian potluck. That that's you. Nothing wrong with that.
[00:10:52] John Roeland:
Well, I'll I'll share a little bit. For me, personally, I was baptized Catholic, and then, you know, by the time I was could really remember, I was going to a Nazarene church, which is very laid back, you know, not as much ritual, obviously, coming from the Catholic church. And I always kinda just bought into it. I would go to church camp, and we'd have, like, very moving ceremonies, campfires where it felt like there was something something was there, something was some type of energy. I realize now that probably if you get a bunch of people together around the campfire and sing songs, you're gonna get some sense of a spiritual heightening, but I definitely bought into it. But it was also at that camp as we got older that my sister, who's a little older than me, started questioning, and a bunch of the kids were kinda questioning it, calling it a fairy tale. And then I remember having a friend in high school who was Muslim, and she was telling me her religion was the right religion and was kind of trying to influence me to look into it. And I just started realizing, like, how could how could God, you know, judge that person who was raised in that religion different than they judge me, and it's all based on which book you're reading. So I pretty much let it go in terms of being connected to one specific story, but I never I never threw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.
I always looked for the positives in the story, which I always thought the story of Christ was more of a, an example that we're supposed to live by. And so then once I got out of high school, I really got into studying the different religions. And I think for me, it was always looking to, like, well, what was the what was the religion before that? What was, you know, like, what what's the foundational religion, which I know now is the concept is the prisca theologia. Right? Like, the the one religion or the original religion. And that idea or that search for me ties into that definition of binding back because I feel like my search was always a binding back to, like, you know, well, what came before that? What you know, because even if you look at the concept of God, right, if you're like, okay. Well, there's this source. Well, okay. Well, what created that? Like, there's something in our mind that always is, like, thinking, well, what's what's the original thing? Is there an original thing? How does this all work? So, to me, that process, ultimately has led me to Daoism.
Daoism to me is, to me, from my understanding, Daoism is kind of the foundation of Buddhism. That might sound kinda crazy, but to me, Daoism sort of establishes this idea of a middle way between the moral poles and to kind of just go with the flow. Not you know, as soon as you call something pretty, then that's ugly. As soon as you call something good, that's bad. So it's this idea of sort of transcending that and also just kind of finding that that slipstream in the middle where you aren't necessarily judging everybody. It's action through inaction.
It's, it which doesn't mean don't take any action. It's just more adapting to, you know, what most people would consider good or bad. And so for me, as I've gone on my search, what I like about Buddhism is I feel like Buddhism is basically the same philosophy, but Buddhism is teaching you practical ways to control your own mind. And I personally think that that's something really important for people to learn. Some people think that Buddhists are atheists. What I found when I was studying it was that there is a spiritual principle there, but they don't talk about God. So the spiritual principle would be karma.
So it's implying that there's something in the universe that is encouraging us to help each other, not harm each other, harm each other less, and that, to me, that implies a God. But, I can't say I ever actually heard anybody at the Buddhist temple talk about God or the creator or anything like that. So it becomes more to me, especially leaving Christianity, it becomes more of showing you how to be a better person, where Christianity is sort of this story of the ultimate man who you could maybe be like or maybe you can't be like because you're full of sin. But depending on how you look at it, I never really felt like Christianity was giving me practical tools to achieve a higher spiritual enlightenment where I feel like Buddhism right away. If you go to a I mean, for me, there's a Buddhist temple near where I live. The first thing they do is have you meditate, count your breath.
It's just it's just the practice of meditating. And, so that's where I find myself now is I keep going back to Taoism. I also have gotten much more into the Yi Ching, which from my understanding is what Daoism was based on. That the, you know, the Yijing is an oracle, survived the burning books and, burning of the books in China, the oldest book in China, and it's basically like an oracle. And I've heard one story that Lao Tzu was would read the Yi Ching for whatever dynasty he worked for. And then he kind of wrote the Dao De Jing based on his experience and the wisdom he garnered from that.
So I use the Yijing. I find it very fascinating. It seems to be pretty accurate. But again, I mean, I guess that's all your perception on it. But, yeah. So that's where I find myself that's where I find myself at with religion.
[00:17:53] Benjamin Balderson:
It's good stuff. Alright. You wanna go next or you wanna go last there, Marcus?
[00:18:01] allen marcus:
Well, if you put me in a hot seat and interview me, this stream could go all night, and you might not get any actual answers.
[00:18:08] Benjamin Balderson:
Well, the hot seats get ready to come. You get to give your, John, like John did, your stance religiously and then once applied to society, I believe, is where the hot seat comes in because I don't know that there's even a hot seat that we had for,
[00:18:28] allen marcus:
you know, what you wanna do in your own Well, the the the hot seat is, like, the literal life or death choice. There's this moment from, you know, Christian, culture that takes place in a school in Colorado in, I think, 1999 where there's the students in this high school are hearing gunshots. And in a library, a girl named Cassie has to stand up and decide because she has a gun pointed at her head to say, you know, do you believe in capital g o d? God, I don't know if it was defined as the God of the Bible, the Old Testament, or the New Testament. It was just, do you believe in God? And then everybody in a Christian youth group setting has to face this thought in their head over and over and over again. Well, do you believe in god or not? Well, it doesn't matter if you believe in the doctrine of the specific church that you're sitting sitting in in this moment. The question is, do you believe in god or not? Okay. So that becomes the preeminent question above all questions.
Do you believe in god or not? If you answer no, then that means you're part of the outside. Or if you answer yes, you're somehow on the inside, but then you might have to die for your faith, which thinking back now and reflecting upon it, the idea of religion and violence in the same sentence, in the same thought is so
[00:20:05] Benjamin Balderson:
interesting to think about. I think we'll circle back to that point. But from there on, Jim I mean, are you gonna obfuscate a bunch more before you circle back, or are you gonna actually just answer your own religious views? I'm just curious. Actually, I'm sure that's what everybody else says. They're both the changes over time. Time limits, so you wouldn't obfuscate for a bunch of time and then no chance, like, don't do anything about your religion in any way, shape, or form.
[00:20:35] allen marcus:
Right. Like, that that that's what you're supposed to be The the yes or no question is difficult to answer. It might be rephrased so I can answer it. To what degree do I believe? So we have to be more specific. To what degree do I believe in the the Christian God of the New Testament, which would imply
[00:20:55] Benjamin Balderson:
father, son, and holy spirit. Nobody said it that way. Nobody pinned you down to that. John there just said, Taoism, Buddhism, karma, I Ching, and a number of things in between and then gave, his understandings of which parts of each that he mostly appreciated. Sure. So nobody tried to pin that down. So
[00:21:20] allen marcus:
So my my wiggling my wiggling and squirming. As you've seen my display, this wiggling and squirming, it would have to be, well, isn't that sort of agnosticism to say that I'm not really taking a position? I'm not quick to say yes or no. So I think practically and applied in my life going on since after probably age 23, it's probably been, for the most part, agnosticism with curiosity towards what's going on in the world in terms of all of the religions, all the faiths, all the histories, all of the theological debates, and there are many of them.
And then to see what plays out in the real world under real world conditions. So going back to the situation where a girl, a high school girl in a library is faced at gunpoint to have to decide, well, do you believe in God? Yes or no? Implying if you answer incorrectly, you will die for your faith. At that point, I would have to say, I don't know that I would die for a faith and a yes or no question, which means because it was practically applied, I would have to shrug and say, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have an answer.
[00:22:48] Benjamin Balderson:
So then more accurately, even without a religion, where is your set of moral standards derived from?
[00:22:58] allen marcus:
That's where in putting into practice the words, the teachings, and the following, sort of indoctrination from high school going to college, making the decision to go to a private Christian college to study, biblical studies and theology. Why did I do that? The answer I gave at that time, and I probably still do, was that having gone to secular schools and state schools and seeing the, drug use, the alcohol use, the sex, and just the degradation of individuals through that sort of culture and the party, atmosphere, which wasn't conducive to academics. Put simply, I didn't wanna have roommates who were not serious about academic study. So I chose a private school that was within a familiar framework of my own beliefs because it was comfortable. I think that's the reason why I chose it. I felt it would be more comfortable. I'd have more in common with a majority of people. It was what I grew up knowing.
But to my surprise, there wasn't a whole lot of people that were exactly like me even within the sort of religious umbrella. So finding that, applied and then the practical application of the set of belief systems influence other people's lives differently. So when you test out the belief system and the structure of living in a fellowship in a community with people who are under the same sort of idea of what we're doing, it was tested. And to find out that more people were prioritizing at that point their own selfish sort of pursuit of knowledge to the end of, getting a degree to give them the best job, you would find out that there wasn't the sort of teamwork and helping and sort of humbleness. So if it's a servant leadership position that Jesus would teach his disciples to be servant leaders, if there was an internship, people would compete and throw on other people under the bus and, you know, lie and cheat and steal just to get to the top of the position even within the setting.
So they weren't even following what they believed to be true when it came down to their own well-being and livelihood. So at that point, that's where I had to say, well, okay. If this is the practical application of a Christian community and this is the outcome of it and they're leaving me stranded here, then I'm gonna have to rethink some things. So that's where I'll leave it for now.
[00:26:06] Benjamin Balderson:
So you would say you're utilitarian? Would that be the,
[00:26:12] allen marcus:
most accurate description then? In terms of application of belief systems?
[00:26:19] Benjamin Balderson:
Of morality?
[00:26:21] allen marcus:
I haven't considered that.
[00:26:24] Benjamin Balderson:
I mean, it's mostly what you described. Right? Utilitarian. Right. You you see a effect whether it's a positive or negative effect and you based off of that.
[00:26:38] allen marcus:
Yeah. We studied utilitarianism in my private Christian college, and they had different ideas of what it meant. So seeing things to a theological Christian biblical worldview inspires yourself to see things that aren't really written on the page. So having a preconceived worldview led to certain defending of that worldview through that sort of lens. So I moved out of that because of my own interest in storytelling and history and other things. I thought that I needed to see how other people would see the world and to be able to see from their point of view. So from there on, I kind of took on a multimodal agnosticism of saying, I don't know which model is best, but if I can try and view the world through those very specific ideas and lenses, then maybe I'd have a better understanding of other people to relate to them. And through doing so, I do think that would lead me to say, by by practice and behavior, that that does seem very utilitarian.
Yeah.
[00:27:50] John Roeland:
So do you feel like you're still searching for a final answer or, like, a final conclusion that you've drawn about the world, about creation, about higher powers?
[00:28:09] allen marcus:
Right. So that's where the sort of flip it flip it, flippy floppy sort of what side are you on today? Well, it's like depending on what group of people I'm with, when in Rome do as the Romans do, when in Vegas, well, what's happens in Vegas? Today's in Vegas. This sort of thing where when religion comes to being in a group setting and it's used to unite people, that's probably when it's at its best. So having the the wisdom to know that being in someone else's house, in someone else's culture to listen and to be observant, to figure out what the context clues are, to sort of blend in in a way. That would be the way to then learn further. And I don't know if that's a religious position. It's certainly not evangelical anymore. I don't think it's the opposite of evangelical because I'm not I'm not preaching against certain churches if that's my behavior.
So this sort of polarization thing of, well, do you believe in god? Yes or no. If you answer no, then you're an atheist or yes, then you're some kind of Christian, Jew, or Muslim?
[00:29:33] John Roeland:
I I have this friend on Facebook who I've I mean, I've never met her. We're just friends because some cause or something. I don't know. But, she's pretty cool. She seems like a cool cool person. She's from Oakland. And, she always kinda talks about, like, that there's no god. Like, she kinda talks like she's an atheist. But then she turns around and talks about, like, spirits and yeah. And I'm like, to me, you can't to me, I would need someone to explain to me how you believe in, like, a spiritual hierarchy, but not but not some sort of higher power that that put everything in motion.
I mean, I could wrap my mind around that it's just always been, but I guess for my instinct tells me that the human mind is always gonna look for, like, a starting point or, like, where a source where this all came from. But I just find that interesting to me. Again, like in Buddhism, when they are talking about a spiritual principle that exists, to me, that implies then that there's something bigger going on than just us. And to me to me, that points to a god, a creator, something that, you know, is has has created this for a purpose. Not that I know what the purpose is, you know, but, yeah, I just find that interesting that, you know, that people can believe in spirits and higher powers, but then turn around and say that they don't believe in God.
[00:31:19] Benjamin Balderson:
So I'm myself I grew up in the Midwest, not very far from Marcus. Where I'm from, for all practical purposes, every area in town has either a Catholic or a Lutheran church. You know? Do you like the stanky fish, or do you like doing the calisthenics while you're in church? Which one do you want? And so, and then, occasionally, some other town has a offshoot odd one like Methodist or Baptist or some other version of the Abrahamic. Occasionally, you get a a Jehovah's Witness out in the woods somewhere. It's, you know, and they'll come visit you for sure, talk to you. But that's basically the entire Midwest.
I grew up. My parents were I don't think they really gave it thought, to be honest. I wouldn't have called them either atheist. I'm not even honestly to this day sure what my dad's religion is if he's ever mentioned it. You know, they're heavily from that era of don't talk politics and religion at home and whatnot. So it wasn't something that a whole lot of thought was given to. And then by the time I was 12, I think, is when the Time Life books came out, and I started getting them. And I started getting into very odd things, which wasn't necessarily against religion, but it also wasn't a real big interest of mine.
When I became older, my parents became Christian. I tried that hat on. I was very interested in all the different, cultures. So because I never really latched on to 1, I went to all kinds of different ceremonies, basically anything I ever had access to. And because I spent whether it was in the army or in prison, I spent a lot of time in a state institution. I had access to, you know, all of them. You know, most of them that are considered major. So I've been to powwows. I've been to, Muslim, ceremonies. I've been to Jewish ceremonies. I've been to, you know, you name it. And, I even spent a year at the going to the Jewish ones and studying with their things. Then, where I had ended up landing as, more adult was that I was fully left hand path where I was not for religion, and I was very anti religious.
But very left hand path, you get these understandings on your own. You do it through your own, life, your own experiences, your own things like that. And then, eventually, I ended up becoming an and finding Odin. And I am a hard hard to this day, which being an oddness is still very left hand path. But I also have a re a recognition that that is absolutely not for everybody. That's not even for the majority is the problem. There's a reason that, you know, in the in the conspiracy community, there's a understanding that the esoteric or exoteric is to hide the esoteric.
But one of the problems that you end up running into is is that most people just don't have it to understand the esoteric. The esoteric is the best they're gonna get. They might get a very broad understanding, but most people just aren't that interested. And, a lot of people and here's here's another thing, and it's a a thing that I ended up having to come to because I was also a hard anarchist, where I eventually had to end up coming to understand that there are some people that do not wanna take care of themselves, and we can pretend like today's this today's point in history, those people exist and they never have before, but that's nonsense.
Historically, there's always been people that don't wanna do don't wanna think, don't wanna, they just wanna be told what to do, go home, fit in some lines, and not move at all. And that's actually the majority. Most people don't wanna take the time and lead their own life. Most people don't wanna put hard study into anything outside of maybe a hobby or something that one little thing that catches their interest. And peep you can't judge those people. Like, those people are the ones that get the raw the the ruggedest work done. The the people who are doing these other, say you wanna become a mass a master carpenter.
Well, you still you don't wanna take your time carrying all the wood and hucking shingles and doing all that kind of thing. You want somebody else to do that, and they and you sure be happy to have somebody that's just willing to do that and not care about actually becoming more and having, more motivation. I I we all aren't the same, and I think that there's this hard push for everybody to be the same. So as a heathen, actually, religiously, there isn't a lot of rules. So there's kind of a separation, between society and religion where some of the things that a lot of the things that the societies did, and some of those I will represent, those aren't in a religious text.
So we have the Havamal and we have the Edas, or we have, some other stories. If you're Germanic, they have versions of it that are different than the Edas. In there, what you can, there's one so if you look at the, which is the most, without getting too deep into it and, crazy with books nobody ever heard of. So the ad is, most well known. It's separated into 3 basic sec sections. One is how you act in your home and how you, treat guests, and then how you act out in the world. And so there's while it's not so much rules, there's things in there like I'm not sure what the Christian version of this. I mean, like, maybe like proverbs type thing where it's just kinda wisdoms.
Like, if you're in another man's home, don't be the wisest. Don't sit there and try and dominate the conversation and and be the smartest and everything else. And, you know and and then, typically, it's also then gonna give, a a reaction for this that, if this happens, you're gonna soon find yourself in a in a enemy in a enemy territory where nobody likes you, and you're you're the actual fool here now because you thought you were big shit, but you just tried to, you know, play king in somebody else's castle and that doesn't work out well.
So or, preaches against, drinking. So while, Hollywood has painted heathens as being a bunch of drunkards, Absolutely, Odin said Odin's against drinking and getting drunk and even, goes through a couple times. I went to this dwarfs and I got drunk and I lost and I woke up and I'm tied up and helpless and I'd screwed myself over. And so the way you look at Odin then isn't as much religious. So for me, it's more of a figure that I follow in that type of system. So Odin was on didn't start out as the all father. He started out different than a lot of the other gods, and my understandings of gods and beings is different than a lot of other peoples. For me, gods are etheric beings as opposed to titans, and there's not really any good or evil to either side or anything like that. It's all just this system and most people have entirely chosen the etheric side and refused to interact with the other side, and that I think is due to the Abrahamic Pantheon.
But, Odin went and he had all the knowledge of the world and understood that that was not enough. So he went through tests and trials to gain the wisdom of the world, the the full understanding. And this is how he becomes the all father. So he's not the original creator being. That's the all. And the all splits into the all father and the all mother. But at this point, that just balances each other out, nothing really happens. So the all father splits into an etheric side, a fire side, the chaos side, and an ice side or a stability side. And those two things are polar opposites from each other. And so here, the all mother affects the all father.
Although she's not part of it, she takes those 2 polarized sides that are pushing away from each other and pulls them back into each other. And where that destruction happens, where those 2 meet is also then where life forms, where we live in the cosmic egg type. We live in a cosmic egg. And so I don't know who Jesse Barrier is. I think this is John. So I don't know, though. Please answer that and figure out who's what's going on there. So we're in a cosmic egg then. Well, inside that, as a heathen, we had then greater beings or forces, more previous primal forces.
We had a, the great cow, and, why is his name slipping my mind? Too many things going on over here. I apologize. We had the frozen giant and the gray cow. And again, from those 2 coming together where she licks his, the frozen ice, which is in the story very specifically, salt salty ice, it's brine. And so between these things, then she releases milk. And from this, life starts, expanding. Yamir. Yamir, the giant. Holy smoke. But, now from that life, this is where we have gods and tight or giants or titans. And here's where Odin and Vily and they appear. So through that entire explanation, obviously, Odin did not create everything.
He was not even here first. He's he's derivative. But then Odin slays Ymir and uses that to shape the realm that we live in and understand now. And this is all part of his becoming the all father. So also for me, there's also the understanding that the all is all of creation. So in this, again, Odin isn't the all, nor is it the entirety of the all father. So I have no denial that there could be the Abrahamic god, and those people could be derived from that. And there could be other things going on all over. I don't in any way say that, could not be happening.
So religion, I do. We have what's called bloats. And we honor the gods. We have a bond fire, there's usually feasting. In it specifically, there's 3 rounds of passing a horn and you very much, have an interaction with the gods and talk to things. This is a very spiritual time. But again, this is that's something that a lot of what was reconstructed. A lot of people are doing that around. So being left hand path, I kinda do my own thing with a lot of those things. But with the full understanding that the very first person who follows me is right hand path. Like, so how am I gonna be real nasty to right hand path people once the first person that listens or sees it the way I see it.
Like, that doesn't make sense either. So way the way that's gonna end up fitting in society though, for me then is, heathen society was very tribal. And so there wasn't a set way that things were done in any given tribe. In inside the tribe, the tribes were freemen, which does not mean that there was not we had a hierarchy where it was a class a class system. And but in that class system, you could change classes depending on whether you wanted to be a leader or whether you did not. So your your merit was choosing your class, It wasn't a stagnant, I was born into this. It doesn't matter if I'm at all worthy of the position, or I'm much better than the position.
It was very structured in that way there was a Yarl. But on the same token, everybody was a free man. So the only things that really got made into laws were things that everybody agreed on. And if you didn't agree on it, like, say we were gonna, they were gonna go do a rating party or something. If you didn't want to go, you didn't have to go. You're a free man. You want to go, you get to split in everything that gets gained in that and you're gonna get left behind in the advancements that come from this. But, that's your choice, bro.
So they were very small societies, extraordinarily strong people that was had a hard time, unifying as an entire group that was their downfall at the end of it. Although the society thrived and flourished, was extraordinarily hard for them to overcome, obviously, the Abrahamic, acts, which was some could even say that, the Christian God was made up entirely by the Greeks in order to subsume the Northern Europeans. And that was entirely, made up, and it's all just derivative from the Abrahamic system, which you can just truncate down. For me, it's all just one thing, and that's from one tiny region of the world. So which I think that some of the things that that is in their teachings are going to apply to that area of the world and not apply to people that live in a mountainous region. Now I think where a lot of the confusion comes in is because when they tried to pull that northern European people into the fold, Alexander the great style, they started just letting the other religions take place, and they just started kind of morphing them in doing that. So you see a lot of Northern European practices brought into the Christian communities anyways.
So a lot of what I would, look at for my moral sets, they aren't gonna vary a lot of times from the Christian moral sets. I I am more if you looked at it politically conservative leaning, like Marcus, I would have to say. But, I think, again, like I said, that's there's a heavy borrowing, not even just in the, culture, but in the actual religion itself, like, the trinity is not actually in the bible, but the trinity is absolutely part of heathen culture. And they slip that in. And even their Christmas, you look, most Christmas symbology is heathen, including there's even a lot of people, if you do deep study, let's say the cross in and of itself is a is a heathen symbol and has never been a Christian symbol. The Christian symbol, if I'm not if I recall, was 1 fish, 2 fish, and a key. The
[00:50:06] allen marcus:
key The earliest Christian symbol being an anchor having to do with fishing and sort of the seafaring groups. So, again, being a specific group of people in a specific period of history is very interesting. If you are looking at the origin of Christianity, big c Christianity, big c church, big r, like capital r, organized religion. So then when the, origin of Christianity sort of happens and people sort of formalize it under this idea of Peter being the rock of the church, and then we get into Catholicism with the pope. And then that sort of ties into, like, a societal structure in terms of government and control, and it goes beyond a set of, moral instructions for community members to live together with the least amount of struggle and conflict.
So then that's really where we circle back to in in terms of the debates with religion. The debate always has to deal with the question of, if religion is a moral thing to keep people together, then why throughout history are the biggest examples of the use of religion being the group of people under a religious banner push towards war and violence. You get the crusades especially and inquisition and the shapings of boundaries and borders of actual countries having influenced by this push of religious sectarian violence.
[00:51:57] Benjamin Balderson:
So as a heathen, I will quickly finish. As a heathen then, one of our big and I'm glad you gave me that little motivator because I forgot that part. Hospitality is actually the biggest part of the Havamal and of the when it you when you split up the Havamal. And so the hospitality section, these people lived in a mountainous, rugged region where it's very icy and cold. And so if a person shows up at my door, I'm obligated, although there's not a penalty that's necessarily ascribed, but I'm obligated to give that man first or woman or whatever.
1st place by my fire. I'm obligated to give them a bowl of some hot food and a cup of so and a cup of drink, you know, get them warm, get them dry. Doesn't even matter who you are. It doesn't have a a color, a creed, a religion. If a if a if a wanderer shows up at your door, you take care of them. And so I think that, and then when you look at the the few penalties that we had, the the greatest penalty that was typically applied was to kick you out of society where you're no longer have access to any of those things. If anybody's caught selling to to somebody that's been outlawed from society, then they're in trouble. So they drive those people away. So literally not being able to live in this symbiotic system of of people that are helping each other was the biggest penalty.
So that I that I think ascribes toward a lot of their mentality in how they lived. So less lawful, but more but very heavy on the helping other people. But also then there's a whole section of, like I said, when you're out in the world, which includes host rights. So how you act as a guest, which don't go into other people's houses, act in a fool, and being a dickhead. And so all those things are, you know, pretty, solid. Like, when I first read the Havamal, I picked it up and I was like, wow. Did I write this? Like, this is crazy. It's just the way I see things.
And that's part of why it wasn't even a religious conversion or any such thing for me. It was this is to me, I I live off grid and out in the mountains. So very much people that lived in that type of environment and the way they lived and the rules they live by apply very much to my life.
[00:54:51] John Roeland:
So I'd like to make a distinction between organized religion and what I think is true religion, which is your personal connection or understanding to whatever you believe is the higher source or, you know, the creator or the thing that's sort of, you know, your conscience, I guess. So for me, personally, when I look at all of these different religions, even though I can wrap my mind around the idea that they were perhaps created to manipulate people or to control people, I still find value in basically any book that specifically religious books, that you can find common themes and a sort of underlying truth that sort of is spoken throughout all of them. Now that may be part of the trick to get people to believe in a particular religion, is you have to have some universal truths in there that pull the people in.
But even as an example, prince. He saw the he saw the the riches of the world and all the you know, he had a family, and then he left because he wanted to see the other side, and then he saw the death and the illness. And then he put himself through all these tests, and then ultimately, he he meditates and reaches enlightenment. And to me, I see a parallel there. Now they're from different areas of the world. They're they're different cultures. But there's an underlying idea there that to me is for my religion, I is what I focus on, is those overlapping values and stories.
I mean, because that's a basic story of you as an individual having to go through tests and trials and come out the other end, you know, spiritually enlightened on some level or with some higher level of wisdom, that that's how it's earned. It doesn't it's not just given to you. Right? So, I just would, like, want to make that distinction because in terms of a debate, it might make it kind of hard to actually debate somebody who's just like, Christianity is the way, and this is, you know, what we, you know, what we have to do. And I'm over here like, well, wait a minute. Like, I see the good sides of Christianity, but I also see the good sides of, you know, you know, Islam or, you know, whatever it might be. And those people are gonna be much more staunch in their belief that there's nothing good that can come out of these other religions and that's the enemy.
So to to wrap my little segment up here, I would just say that, again, when the basic premise of Buddhism is to meditate to control your mind, I think that's one of the most valuable things we could introduce to society. And there would be a way to do it to where you're not even talking about a religious figure. It's just the principles that they're teaching are going to help everybody to take a deep breath, calm down, consider what's running through your head constantly, consider what the monkeys are chattering in your mind, Take a minute to listen and know what's going on in your mind, and then be able to push those thoughts out.
So
[00:58:47] allen marcus:
John, are you describing sort of the antidote to fanaticism and fundamentalism? Possibly. Because those are sort of the biggest problems people have in terms of any religious group of people is they'll they'll meet the fanatics and the fundamentalists first. And those people are so, gung ho on conversion or proof that they are, an organization with strength and power. It's sort of a flex of their muscles. That sort of leads towards, again, the sort of implied violence in terms of worldview violence to say that if you don't share my worldview, I cannot have a conversation with you because you are the enemy and I have to debate you. I think what Balderson was saying in terms of the sort of mutual aid where a man shows up on your property and he needs help and charity, you help the guy. You feed him. You give him rest, and then you have a conversation. You say, well, what are we what are we doing now? What are your plans? You know, this is my property. You can't overstay your welcome here, but what can we do to help you along your journey?
That sort of thing. And that's where we get to probably the best argument in favor of organized religion through the the lens of charity. In the history of America, we have, like, FDR, the New Deal, and sort of social security safety nets and these types of things. Before government stepped in, it was private religious institutions, churches in the communities that were responsible for organizing charities and fundraisers and helping people in the community who needed food and water and beds and homes and these types of things. So the charity aspect was the best aspect of probably local religion, shall we say. There's a distinction between organized globalist religion and local neighborly meeting or at the local church because this is where we build our town around, the church, the steeple, this type of thing.
But now today, the way things have played out in this quickening of timelines where religion has become intertwined with politics. So a political affiliation automatically assumes a religious affiliation, automatically assumes so many things about a group of people. It's dividing into voter blocks in America, red or blue. Now it's an election year, and we have to deal with that reality where going to a church to seek charity and human contact and fellowship and love and acceptance, but only if you have the correct bumper sticker and you're supporting the correct candidate and you have this correct political point of view. Did I make a point there? The point of intermingling religion with politics has led to the worst outcomes for everybody.
But the best example and usage of capital r religion in a formalized way was charity before the government said we're gonna do charity better.
[01:02:18] Benjamin Balderson:
Yeah. I would say that the government stepping in and, taking control of that situation actually made people less charitable. I know that I I I in that type of system, I'm all about skipping out on taxes. But when I lived over in Redding, one of the neighbors' houses burned down, and, you bet everybody in the dam and anywhere close showed up with the lumber and screws and nails and labor. And, you know, I had a new house up, boom, like that. You know? That's, that's the way small town living is. Again, this is part of why, when I picked up the Habemaw and read that, I was just like, the way it, read out, I was just like, what?
This isn't even a religion. This is just how you fucking live. And it it's, it's about decency right there. And that really is what we're getting down to with this is is where where do you pick your moral set from this then? And, with the big problem being for most people, if you do not have a religion, then what is driving your moral set? And, a lot of people without think that without it, you can't have one. There is some recognition of utilitarian, you know, which we get into the debate with how that applies Society, obviously, that's gonna have some issues, utilitarian. It, it can be very fluctuating, but I would also say that most well, at least applied so far religious beliefs, as you heard, Marcus talking about with the fanatical, the more fanatical type people, people don't even like them. So, most religions are even very fluctuating. I mean, I don't know if the if the Abrahamics at one point in time killed people because they ate a shellfish or something or not. I don't know.
But I would be real weirded out if I saw somebody trying to eat kill somebody because they ate some crab today. Like and I'm a vegetarian. I don't even eat animals or fish. I'm not a pescatarian. And it would still weird me out, like, if somebody went after somebody to kill them because they ate a crab or or a lobster or whatever. Like, are are you really doing that? So the and and when you look at even just utilitarian or just living by the legal system, also, it fluctuates quite a bit. So if you so then people wanna know you have some kind of at least hardcore based system. But when you look at, even the legal system, well, in America, you take something as touchy and controversial as age of consent for a for a a child.
In America, we're dead set on 18. You go over to Europe, it starts varying, you know, 16, 14, 12, who the fuck knows? Even over in America, it didn't get even they didn't have an age of consent at 16 till 1929, and then the 18 didn't come till much later. So you're talking about less than a 100 years we've had this standard. But absolutely, you'll see people being very religious about if, you know, a girl is under 18, you know, they need to go to prison for the rest of their lives. They can be, you know, they should be taken out and beaten.
Well, that standard has fluctuated quite a bit, and it fluctuates country to country. So it's it that again, with all of those, you don't have a a hard line at the end of it that's been unfluctuating. So I think that's part of where a lot of that debate comes
[01:06:45] John Roeland:
in. One thing I found, interesting kind of more recently reading Daoism is that or the Dao De Jing is that they kind of get into the idea that morality is a human concept and that the way, DAO, is beyond that. So this idea of things being good or bad, which we've talked about on this on this series before, is more of a human construction that obviously we are, like, obsessed about, but that there's a there's a way that you can get into, and it's beyond virtue. It's beyond right and wrong. It's more of an acceptance. You know, the world doesn't need to be fixed. Things are as they are, and you need to look at negative things that are happening as part of the process or what we perceive as negative. Right? The DAO wouldn't even perceive it as negative or as evil.
So, again, for me, getting people to just sit down and ponder over these things is a big part of the battle that we face because too many of us are caught up in the intellectual side of right and wrong, and then picking aside and arguing from that where we all just need to sit down and take a deep breath and, you know, realize that there isn't much we can do, and there isn't much that necessarily needs to be done. More knee more needs to be detached from and left alone. The more meddling that we do, the worse it gets.
[01:08:50] allen marcus:
Yeah. And I would relate that to anyone who's had children or has been a child and they've been raised in a Christian environment, whatever, and they this idea that America is a a Christian nation, and there's a lot of Christian churches everywhere. So in my own history and and seeing other people, you know, my age growing up in in Sunday school with other children and seeing how there was variances in the way that their parents would apply sort of punishments for certain behaviors and how that they would sort of manipulate children to behave in the most favorable way for the parents under their home, this type of thing. So when it comes to sort of training a child in the way you want them to go so they don't depart from you as an adult, this is the argument of nature versus nature, nature versus nurture, where in the specific ideas within Christianity are taught.
They are they're shown. They're displayed. They're taught. They were they are ingrained in young people's minds. And then for them to have to turn 18 and choose what they wanna do when they become an adult. So being raised in that situation, seeing different outcomes for children who are raised in church and then seeing them on Facebook now, you know, and kind of seeing, well, are they are they married? Are they still attending the same church? Have they gone agnostic? Have they gone atheist? Have they remained in it? And anecdotally, the situations are so different for each individual person based off of their personality and situations they've encountered, things that they've gone and personally explored and pushed for.
It's hard to say. So even at the end of life on someone's deathbed where, you know, a pastor or priest may come and talk to them, and they might say, well, you know, you live the majority of your adult life outside of church, outside of religion, outside of faith, outside of confessing your sins and asking for forgiveness each day. But now at the end of your life, you want to accept Christ and reconvert and then go to heaven because that's where you were as a child. But living it out in your adult life, you didn't do these things. But then at the end of life, if you're, you know, on your deathbed and you're given that opportunity to reflect back on your life and then ask for forgiveness and make things right, then you can go to heaven kind of scratching your head?
Does it seem unfair that certain people can get fire insurance at the last possible minute and then go to heaven, but then they don't live that life throughout their entire life seems kinda frustrating to those people who are maybe living humbly and serving the Lord and doing their thing, but then are taken advantage of at every angle. So this is the struggle of any person, we'll say man, who wants to live a moral righteous life, who wants to live according to the bible, but living in a sinful world, a fallen world where no one cares. No no one's going to treat you better because you walk around carrying a bible than if you don't. So it's the way that you are reflecting your behavior and in conversations with people that builds up by certain reputation.
So to say at gunpoint, do you believe in God? Yes. Well, great. All is forgiven. We're gonna put you in this good guys club over here. And then, you know, you're there's gonna be some leeway with forgiveness, and we understand you're struggling with certain addictions and sins and things, but we're gonna give you leeway, and we'll forgive you. And that's okay. And we'll call that the church. We'll call that the fellowship. And then they would say, well, there's the outside world. There's everybody else who's not involved in our church who may be doing their best to raise a family and live and pay their taxes and be a good citizen and follow the traffic laws and stop at every stop sign even if there's no traffic, this type of thing.
So when it comes to small r religion, personal faith, and how you act when no one's watching you, that's really the test of what your actual belief system is.
[01:13:48] Benjamin Balderson:
It's
[01:13:49] John Roeland:
I was just gonna say real quick. It dawned on me the other day that possibly you know, because a lot of people like to attribute that Jesus was talking about taoism, like, I am the way. Tao means the way. And I do think in the idea of Jesus connecting a personal relationship with the creator that does relate to the DAO. You're kind of getting into that. You're getting into alignment with that source or that flow. However, when the story perhaps becomes a bit of a psyop is when, Jesus starts going around calling everybody out who's doing evil.
And it kinda seems like that put us on a path to where we're at now, where everyone's looking for the, the evil enemy and calling them out and, like, you're you're not doing this. You're not. And it just I don't know. It just feels like they've conflated those two ideas that Jesus was preaching Daoism, But really, if Jesus was preaching Daoism, he wouldn't have been so preachy, really. And I I just feel like that that vibe or that action that Christ took has continued, with the church, where it's like you have to point out who's doing evil and who's sinning. And it just leads to a lot of the issues that we have.
[01:15:23] Benjamin Balderson:
So I was gonna pick on Marcus, but then you had to go in there and
[01:15:29] allen marcus:
and cut in. So
[01:15:30] John Roeland:
You can still you can still get him. Come on. Yeah. Oh, definitely.
[01:15:35] Benjamin Balderson:
So the the problem with this is and this is coming again from somebody that's left hand path. The problem with wanting everybody to be left hand path is there are a lot of people that just don't know how to act right. There's even a case to be made that you can look at historical things like the Marquis de Sade. Like, why would all the people all of a sudden start going nuts? Anybody that doesn't know who the Marquis de Saad, he made very sexually explicit pictures and stories. I mean, things that no normal person would wanna do. Talking about things like cutting holes in people because they've already used up the other ones, and they need to use new I mean, really very extraordinarily twisted things.
Now they ended up having to, lock the Marquis de Saad in a cell by himself and ended up having to take away all his writing utensils because the society around was so voracious for this work, and you immediately saw a degeneration of society. And so for as much as we can say that we would want, society that's able to freely do things, and you then start using basically the no harm principle, well and the same thing applies with this utilitarian. Well, if it's not, what's harm then? And for utilitarian, what's good? These are very slippery slippery slopes.
Now taking this middle path, why I started out with the left hand, is fine and dandy for, somebody who is on is gonna has some kind of a chance to be that realized person. But this is honestly the path for a very, very few people. And most people, when they choose a polarity, they choose a good and evil. That's based on the either the their experience, the experience of their peoples, things like that. So there's some kind of a lived experience behind this good and evil and some kind of an understanding, like, for every, time you look in the store and it says some crazy shit, like, don't lick the exposed electrical. Some fucking guy did that.
Like, somebody fucking did that. And and there's the problem, and this is where our society comes to. Like, most, politically, one of the biggest ones right now is everybody's very against the 3 strikes laws and the mandatory minimums. Well, that's easy enough if you've been born post 1990. If if you were born in the seventies, you had to live sometime in the eighties. And if you were in a major city, you remember why the crime bills were a thing. Like, when I went to high school, that we regularly had to get diverted because there was police snipers and crime was real. Murder was real. They called Minneapolis mini murder back then. It was just a thing.
And so the post, nineties crime bills, the the violence, you can look at it. It is just dropped. And I I do understand that some of the, I'm not for the, incarceration the way this country does it. But for the violent parts of those crime bills, it's hard to deny that the violence has dropped down to nothing compared to what it was. So that just again leads you to are some people, are we as a society enlightened and with it enough, and do even some of these people wanna be to not have laws, not have rules, not have enforcement of these. To take a middle path and say that there is no good when people clearly when you give them an option of shit's not evil, they will look at look at the world around you now.
We're in that. We're living that out. They're like, there is no evil as some as some freaking 38 year old dude pretending to be a woman dangles his nuts in front of your kids and reads a story book. Like, he's not hurting anybody. Like, so at some point in time, that middle path just gives you no place to stand either.
[01:20:23] allen marcus:
Right? So to so to say that someone out there is not hurting anyone with their display of freedom of expression of art, it's not hurting anyone, I would ask why have we gotten to this point in culture where we say it's not hurting anybody instead of the opposite to say it's not helping anybody. So who is it helping? Who is that display helping? Who is it empowering? Are they empowering a ruling class of evil people who don't care if you say you believe in God or Allah or Buddha or what they don't care what your beliefs are when you are going along with the program that they've laid out for you, voting, taxes, all of society, you know, 40 hour work week, minimum wage, all of these things that are tied into politics and religion and society and governance.
And we look at what is the United States government doing. They're allowing a Super Bowl. So they're allowing these rituals at a Super Bowl. And then you say, well, it's what is it? It's not hurting anybody. A little nipple slip, Janet Jackson's nipple slip isn't hurting anybody. But then having 20 plus years of the fallout of that, well, what did it what did it lead to? A little nipple with a little sun pierced through it that everybody saw of all young people. I we were in I was in high school at the time. We were all on our computers searching Janet Jackson's nipple on public school computers to try and find it after the Super Bowl. We were all looking for it. That's is that is that temptation? It it's just we're trying to write a paper about it. Right? We we wanna talk about the politics of the fallout, the censorship of the FCC and who's how much is enough fine to pay for this thing. But we were all in this moment united over this transgression and this taboo.
Now what did it lead to? Allowing more promise promiscuity in public displays of the Super Bowl? Has it gone to the point where modesty used to be something that we'd all agree was a good trait? We'd all agree that, you know, wearing covering clothes and respectful clothes, when you go outside to shop for groceries or you go out to dinner, you'd present yourself well. And that was the culture we wanted to live in. Now it seems to say, well, they're not hurting anybody for wearing pajamas and flip flops and shopping at Walmart at midnight in a drunken drug stagger, it's like they're not hurting anybody, but yet they're not helping themselves. They're not helping. They're not contributing to society.
So the the statement that Balderson continues to point out is not everybody wants to be a contributing member of society. Not everyone is capable of self discipline, and not everyone is going to be saved and fixed by religion is a huge point of, well, let's let's point that out and let's figure it out. And specifically in the aspect of like churches giving charity, I have volunteered so many times at different food distributions and charity drives in giving out supplies to people. And then the volunteers would always kind of judge people. They'd say, well, that person is wearing some really nice tennis shoes. I don't think they need the charity because I think they can afford it themselves.
And then another person would walk by and receive whatever vegetables we were handing out or baby diapers or whatever. And then someone else would say, well, you know, every time I've been volunteering at this church for 50 years, and I've always seen this family, I always see the same family showing up and taking and taking and taking, never saying thank you, taking, taking, taking. They never show up to church on Sunday. They never join us for potluck. They never join us for fellowship. They they don't wanna be a part of the group of the church, but you put out free food and they're going to take it. Should we say, well, you know, these church stores are closed for you because you're too rich or because you're not gonna be part of the community or is charity for everybody. When you have a public charity, it has to be for everybody equally. So where does the judgment come in?
[01:25:14] John Roeland:
Just go go full Joel Olsteen on them. Close the doors. Yeah. You know, I think what's interesting for me, honestly, having this discussion is I just realized how much my thoughts are still evolving, and to me, that's my spiritual path. That's my relationship with what I would call God is that I'm constantly having new epiphanies. Maybe I'm going back on something I thought before. But one aspect I wanted to point out is that so, like, the idea of natural law being like being like karma or cause and effect and that, you know, there's this there's this entity or this source that wants us to create this utopia or whatever. I kinda think that's where they they go wrong with that theory.
I think I've come to the understanding that that source, that power is impersonal, and what it allows us to do when we align with it and connect with it and cocreate with it is it allows us to create whatever we want, really. And it's not there's not a lot of judgment on it. It's may maybe it's just necessary for us to learn and to grow and or it's maybe it's just just to let it happen, just to see where it goes. But like where Ben is saying, some of these people need religion. They do just like some people need government, and I think we should let them have it. And if there's those people who wanna step in and govern all of these people, then I I don't think we have that much power to change it because we're not of that mindset to want to be in that position, to be, I I want my guy in power to say this, this, and this, and you have to follow this, this, and this because this is the way.
Right? It's it's, you know, to me, connecting with Daoism and connecting with this idea of these natural laws and how they work. If if if the idea is that we we create such a terrible world that we destroy ourselves, then that's what we do. And that's and that's that's what we chose to do with it, you know, this time around. Because I'm sure it happens over and over again, and there's different outcomes. But, the the other thing I'd wanna tie into that too is just the concept of synchronicity and how that has played into my belief in a higher intelligence.
That there's things that seem to happen in my life that just it can't be a a coincidence. Well, it is a coincidence because it's 2 coinciding incidents. Right? Like, they're related somehow. There's a correspondence between them. But in those moments when they happen, that's, for me personally, the deepest sense of, oh, shit. Like, there there's something there's something trying to show me something. I'll give as an example. And again, maybe this is how our mind works. Maybe we maybe we create this. But a friend of mine, growing up in high school, he passed away, this is years ago, probably 20 years ago, drunk driving.
And, not surprising, he's kind of a wild guy, and we ended up going to his funeral. And me and a buddy of mine who we weren't best friends with this guy, but we were both good friends with him. But we went to a liquor store and my buddy bought a bottle of tequila, casadores, which I had never had at the time. We go over to the the party after the fact and it turns out this is what they were drinking the night our friend died. So that was the first thing. We're like, that's kinda weird. So then we go out back and we're pouring in these red cups. We're pouring shots and we're all in a circle, take a shot. I'm standing with my friend who we went to the the store together and we went to the funeral together and we go and we put our cups down and this huge gust of wind on a totally still night comes through both of us and knocks our cups on the ground. And we go to pick him up, and I just stopped him. And I was like I was like, what?
Like like, it was just and and again, like, maybe that's us making it up, but he knew what I meant when I'd stopped him. And it was like, wow, dude. Like, our 2 cups are the only ones that blew over. You and me are pretty much the only ones that felt that gust of wind. And it just I don't know. I mean and again, maybe people think I'm crazy saying that, but to me, that's true religion. And, you know, the organized stuff is, probably more what we should be talking about. But for my personal experience, those types of experiences are what, make me believe in a higher power.
And in terms of all the books and the organized religions, I feel like it's a simplified version for people to take in and to feel comfort in. And, I mentioned I don't know if I said it on the last episode, but I mentioned like, when my dad passed away, I I remember looking at these people who just had a basic Christian perspective, and it probably made it easier for them to to to believe that my dad was going to heaven and he's gonna be with his, you know, his family. And, it makes it so they don't have to ask deeper questions, I guess.
[01:31:08] allen marcus:
Sounds like you shared a story of a miracle.
[01:31:15] John Roeland:
The miracle of the cazadores.
[01:31:17] allen marcus:
Yeah. That that sort of, intervention, that working with spirits, that sort of thing. The tying in of, like, spirits being alcohol is a very interesting thing. And I would say, like, even within the Christian church, they have the sacrament of communion, And certain churches will say, well, it has to be the best wine. Other churches will say, actually, no. It it can't be alcoholic at all. It has to be grape grape juice, like Welch's grape juice. So no one's getting junk in the spirit. But that's that is where we where I find myself nitpicking specific arguments to say, well, we can't go to that church because they serve communion with actual wine and alcohol, and we don't drink alcohol because we just decided not to drink alcohol for the best. That's the worst aspect of getting into arguments in religious debates about theology and doctrines.
What you just said, John, was the best aspect of living a spiritual life is to live in accordance with the higher power. Call it God. Try that. And then see when you're living well, doing well, treating people well, showing self discipline, you know, committing and then following through, being a basic good human being to other people who treat you well. And the fruits of those, behaviors are more good behaviors from other people. And then if you go the more mystical route and you begin to see the interaction with the unseen spirits, the good spirits, the synchronicities, the things that are miraculous and seemingly impossible, then maybe you found that that was the fire that was fueling a lot of these religious denominations as they started with miracles. They started with outpourings of synchronicities and positive things and feeling good, and people were empowered with purpose to live their lives for the best thing.
Yes. And now, today, that continues to happen, But I don't think that's under the banner of big r religion. I don't think it could ever happen at a corporate institutional worship center megachurch setting. And that's where we push back against Joel Osteen and other televangelists and all these people to say, well, they are becoming the McDonald's and Starbucks of religion, and we are allowing that. So they're not doing any harm to anybody to practice their megachurch religion, but yet seemingly they are. So then is it our job to push back? What do we do?
How do we mix our convictions into our daily life and still have our laundry done and we're fed and our bills paid? Sort of the practical application of it. So when living in community, Christian community or otherwise, even to having a wife and a family and grandparents and people to help you out with these basic chores. That's the best aspect of local, small r can we even call that at this point a religion?
[01:35:08] Benjamin Balderson:
Where we end up coming is is, I'm with Marcus on this. They're just, the the large religions. I think religion honestly needs to be regional. And I think, baked into every religion is, a certain way of living that applies to that region. And that's but I also think that, in that, those are needed. I think those religions are needed. When you, when you say mind control, it's funny because then, you know, you you could say religion or or government even is derogatorily when you say it's mind control, government means mind control. But then in the same token, turn and preach mind control. Like, well, there are just some people that just don't wanna do it, and you don't want to reject all of those people from society where some of those people, we've all met them where they thrive in a structured system and as soon as they even have the small modicum of freedom, they will abuse it. And it's a it's a really interesting thing.
You even look at like that, if you ever seen that movie last night with, Clive I think Clive Owen. And, the guy who takes him, who's a very rigid man, who's very structured, takes this guy, you know, and he's nothing but a little drunkard and has nothing and everybody hates him and he's doing nothing with his life and he puts that kid in structure. And all of a sudden, that kid is like the most honored high knight in the entire realm and his his his honor is unquestionable. Some people, they they without that,
[01:37:09] John Roeland:
they won't do it.
[01:37:11] Benjamin Balderson:
I mean, there are definitely some. And again, I I I I think that a lot of these left hand path, more left hand path, cultures and religions and whatnot that are being pushed today, I think those are only ever made for a few people. I think religion is the the masses are always gonna be for religion's gonna be for them. When you look at it, the the the the mob has never been enlightened. The mob has never made good decisions. The mob has never been who you follow. Well, why is that? So it seems like there's just a large majority of people that without that structure, they cannot seem to make a decent choice that fits in with society. They'll make too many choices that will, you know what? That guy bothers me. I'm just gonna murder him. Who cares? Nobody even likes him. I'm just gonna take his land. Who cares? You know, it's not hurting anybody. Like, you know, there's a lot of people that'll just make a lot of really bad choices.
And you look at California where California's been hell bent on pulling any kind of laws. It's not making the people more enlightened. It's not making it a better place to live. Like, you know, they took away, theft charges for anything under a $1,000, and all of a sudden people are just mass mark murking stores going in and robbing the hell out of them for anything under a $1,000. Like, you go into any store down in the bay or anywhere down there, everything's behind glass. Like, oh, can I get that 5 cent item? Can I get could you unlock the the is this bulletproof? Like, hey.
Oh, the and and there's a lot of stores that at this point, the the society's so bad around these that you see, like, if you look it up, Target's already pulled out of New York, Chicago, Dallas, the bay, like, 3 to Oakland. They're talking about, like, basically any of these major liberal cities where it's, you know, just do what makes you feel good as long as you're not hurting nobody. Businesses are pulling out and fleeing because how do you do business in that? Like, people keep proving, and I think that's why you're seeing such a, hard growth in the orthodox Christianity Even as opposed to these other sects of Christianity, the orthodox in and of itself is growing x, you know, way faster.
And I think it's because a lot of society just looks at people and know, god, if we have a choice, we don't choose well. And I can't disagree with them.
[01:40:12] John Roeland:
You know, one thing I realized recently was, I think I I'd have to consider myself left hand path too just based on my experiences and constantly looking for the next thing. And even if I find something I've I value, I usually move on and keep searching. But, recently, I was, taking my son to this to the the Buddhist temple, and, they have, like, a class for children. And they they have they have some rituals that you do when you go there. You you bow to the Buddha. You you bow to the Buddha. You do, like, we do, like, this certain chant. And I I was remembering where well, 1, the community that I came from, the the natural law community, they just they hate religion. They think religion is the problem. But as I was watching these people doing this ritual, like, I realized the need for it. You know, I mean, I I realized the need for it.
You know, I mean, it but I think there was a time where it bothered me a little bit. Like, why am I bowing why am I bowing to the Buddha? Well, you're really just bowing to your higher self, if you can look at it that way. Or maybe some people do need to bow to the Buddha, like you're saying, Ben. Maybe they need a a symbol for for them to to process what it is they're doing. But I don't I guess I just I found the value in that now because everyone does some type of ritual. If you light a candle and meditate or pray or, you know, pray before you eat or whatever it is, it's you know, we've kind of demonized these things unless it's done. You know, witches can do it, but, you know, the Buddhists can't, you know, bow to the Buddha. But, you know, but a witch can go draw a circle and, you know, do whatever. You know? Like, but, yeah, there's, like, a formality to it, and, also, it is teaching you, sort of how to think, how to control your body, how to calm down and, you know, do a certain pose or hold your hand a certain way.
There's just valuable lessons in all of that, and I think that, you know, I think people should choose what they connect with the most. But I in general, I do think that practices like that are are are valuable.
[01:42:50] Benjamin Balderson:
Basically, teaching reverence and having reverence for something we find today that and I I can't disagree that if it'll the irreverent people that we see today are wow. The the the tips that they will dive to, like, of depravity, I just at some point in time, like, you you've moved out of the realm of religion. You've moved out of the realm of utilitarian. You've moved out of the realm. Like, you're just in a hedonist world where anything that feels good to you in that very moment is what you live for, and and that seems to be society, and it's that obviously isn't working.
So reverence for something needs to be there apparently for people.
[01:43:40] John Roeland:
I wanted to add one more thing that kind of overlapped. So, basically, I'll do every every new moon, I'll do a Yi Xing reading for myself just to kinda get a general feel of what to what to anticipate. And last month, I got one called The Gathering, and it the the passage talked about a family gathering to honor the ancestors. And, basically, the the ritual was you would take a drink, and I don't know if they would like what else was a part of it? But it was basically honoring people who for in your family who have died and basically calling on them to support you or to, you know, give you strength.
And just that right there, I mean, that right there enters you into this little bit of a higher realm than where we are. Right? Like, there's this, you know, there's this higher level where your ancestors go, and they're still looking over you. And it's sort of a good beginning to, spiritual, belief, and I think it would be a really easy thing to do. Like, I'm actually considering throwing a party where I'm like like, I don't know. Let's make it like how they do it in that, you put put everybody on the, you know, and, like, light some candles and just pay homage to the people in our family who have passed. Because, I mean, honestly, in in this society, I mean, sometimes my mom will wanna go to the cemetery and go see my dad, but it's like, to me, I don't find a lot of meaning in that.
Right? I'd rather sit around with people who knew him and talk about him and invite him to come to come join us. Right?
[01:45:37] Benjamin Balderson:
Now do you feel do you think though that part of the reason that you don't feel any reverence is because you're not actually connecting with your dad? Where in today, when you go to go see him, as we've learned in, a lot of people learn in the more recent effect events about energy fields and things, when you're looking at heathen and pagan societies, a lot of them had a lot of reverence for their, ancestors, heathens included. So a lot of the practices included either burial mounds or something of that nature where the literal bones, which are giving off an energetic signature are, only so far from your person.
Where now you're going and this person's been encased in this box and sealed tight and dropped specifically 6 feet into the ground
[01:46:38] John Roeland:
and Mhmm. Up
[01:46:40] Benjamin Balderson:
and you're not actually making that connection with that person. Was there a big difference in these societies where ancestral, what they would today term ancestral worship was part of their lifestyle is that burial, the way they're doing it now, is what's stopping that connection and actually created an entire break in that whole tradition. And is there, scientific basis behind it given again what we're learning, about the energy fields and understanding that through, epigenetic memory, you're just gonna be tying to them remains. And if you're feeling them, when you even look at the Catholics, it's not even considered as, altar unless it has a reliquary, which a reliquary is a bone of, saint, some type of a saint's bone. So there's a recognition that inside the bone, there is some type of energy even in Catholics and other religions.
So is it the fact that it's been buried and locked away to such an extreme that you can't actually make an energetic connection? Do you think that that's possibly why you don't feel that reverence in that situation?
[01:48:03] John Roeland:
Yeah. I think that's possible. I think maybe I'm also sort of resisting the the norm of, oh, I have to go here to pay homage, and you go to this place, and it's, you know, it's a Catholic burial ground. He's in a he's in a plot on a wall,
[01:48:23] Benjamin Balderson:
which apparently question again in the in the pagan heathen style, you're assuming my my dad's still alive. But if my dad was or my grandfather, my grandfather would be right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Exactly. Yeah. I mean go to a Catholic thing. I would go over to the backyard where we have
[01:48:42] John Roeland:
our ancestors' remains are. Right. Yeah. I think I've always been more well, if I wanna talk to my dad, I can talk to him. I I do have that spiritual belief where if I but but I will say I don't do that often. You know? I I don't, like, make an effort to talk to my dad. So that might be that might be a part of it. So I've never really considered that.
[01:49:09] allen marcus:
These are bringing thoughts to mind where I'm considering that most families in America probably don't see each other unless there's a wedding or a funeral. And then the the function of big r religion, organized religion, a church as being the meeting point for a family to have a wedding and then at some point a funeral. So that has all the the tradition of what are we doing with our burials. And in small towns, back roads, you'll see a church, and you'll see all the farmers buried in the field, and you'll see all the headstones. They were all local. They were all working together.
And that that seemed to work for them. Now, fast forward a few years, feminism, putting women to work, and then everyone's becoming atomized and individualized where they have to do they have to make their own way. So they have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. They have to go to college and then pay for their college and expect to find a job and then get their own car, their own apartment, their own Netflix subscription. Everything has to be on their own terms, which pulls every fabric of a society and a family apart where it's almost like this show of, success to say, well, I'm not supported by my parents. I'm, I'm living independently.
But that's sort of like the smack in the face to say, well, more people fail trying to live outside of their family and their generations of grandparents and the family estate and the family trust and the the home that they've built and the land that they've built up around themselves. So to leave that and to have nothing to your name, no savings, no equity, no value, no credit score, and then to try to get a car on your own, well, you need to have a cosigner on loans and cosigner on mortgage. So that just shows how there are certain families, wealthier families, who understand the importance of families and respect for family and tradition, where the average lay person being, you know, at the bottom of the socioeconomic tax bracket, being constantly told that if you try a little harder, if you go to college, if you get an education, if you become a janitor and you clean those toilets, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna rise up in the ladder. You're gonna rise up in the ranks. That's sort of this working class, which brings up the question of, is religion, capital r religion, or local church for the working class?
And then the ownership class, the business owners, they go to a separate church together? So who is benefiting from this organization of having family generations, having respect, reverence, and sincerity for parents, grandparents, and extended family. And there's a, a biblical idea of, like, honor your father and your mother. Now today, a lot of young people will say, my mother and father were not honorable people, so I can't honor them because they were addicted to drugs. They were addicted to alcohol. They're addicted to shopping. They didn't show me how to live, whether or not they went to church or not probably is beside the point. But to have a low trust society where from birth, children are not honoring their parents because their parents aren't raising them well. I don't know if that means bringing them to church or not, but to not honor parents, to not respect leadership because the leadership themselves are not earning trust and respect from people.
I don't know if the solution is religion, returning to old time religion, returning to fundamental Christianity. What we're in now doesn't seem to be working. People seem to want to be in a separation of church and state, living essentially atheistically, materially without a spiritual dimension, and that's not working. So all of this that I'm I'm speaking towards is saying we've had systems in the past that have worked, that have gotten us physically to this point, the generations, our grandfathers, and their fathers in the matriarchal line as well. But now at this point, and maybe due to religion, specifically Christian end times prophecy, to say that there will be in end times where everything is just going to crumble and go into chaos, and it has to collapse.
And then there will be this reset in the form of a rapture that happens where the Christians who say, yes. I believe in God. Go to heaven. Leave all the sinners on earth so they can die and then eventually go to hell. That sort of thinking has not gotten to us a point where we are invested in improving infrastructure and family structures because it's all going to hell in a handbasket. So then, realistically, in the world we live in today with the financial aspects being what they are with government and politicians and corruption everywhere, if people are now swinging back and looking for a savior in the form of a president or a religious leader, which might happen to be 1 and the same guy or girl or woman. I I don't know. I'm not assuming anyone's gender in 2024.
We've had all sorts of craziness happen. So to have everything seemingly inverted, the opposite of all sort of religious values. And then the reality that there are people searching for fellowship and community and churches, but there's also this fear of Christian nationalism and organizing and any sort of fundamentalist group be being labeled like a terrorist cell or a cult or something. Now moving forward, how do we as individuals find community that has a spiritual aspect that might be small or religion so that we can work together with all the aspects of what it means to be alive.
Where does this lead?
[01:56:33] Benjamin Balderson:
Well, I would state that the church is the one that broke the family thing with, the Catholic church coming in and their ban on what they what they, termed incest is one of the first things that broke up these communities and these families. So I would have to say a 100%, the church kind of the church brought that on is what brought that on for a lot of people. Where this having this worldwide church is what really did it.
[01:57:07] John Roeland:
Well, I was thinking that with what, you know, how Ben was you were talking about a cast system. It it it does seem that at some point, the for lack of a better term, the rulers or the ruling class, that they did make a determination that, hey. There's just this percentage of the population that just needs government, needs a belief system. They don't want to control their own minds. They need their minds to be controlled, so we're gonna give them religion. What's interesting is that that's now kind of gone to scientism and Technocracy. And I I I guess I'm posing the question of why that changed. Was there too much of a pushback against organized religion?
But, you know, obviously, the science that they're they've given us is totally just as unbelievable as any religious story. So, I find that interesting because, I mean, you know, in my story where I I, you know, lost my religion, but I kept pieces of it, I didn't lose my spirituality, My sister went full atheist. And, I mean, for her and I throughout our lives, it's been it's been a battle just in terms of even being able to relate because she basically is void of any spirituality. And I'm constantly finding these synchronicities and things happening in reality and, you know, trying to point it out to her. I don't even really try anymore.
But, yeah, to her, everything's been solved. Man is superior, and she has a reason for why it's good to be moral. You don't need a god to be moral. I can't think of the word that she always uses. It's not it's not oh, what's the word? It's something about that it somehow benefits the it benefits us biologically to be moral.
[01:59:27] allen marcus:
Text her and ask her.
[01:59:29] John Roeland:
I know. It starts with an a. It starts with an a. Give her a call.
[01:59:32] allen marcus:
She'll have to tell you again.
[01:59:35] John Roeland:
Yeah. Right. Anyway but I guess it's interesting to me that it shifted that even though we can say those people there's a certain amount of people who needed religion. At some point, they needed something different. They need you know? And the and the the powers that we continue continue to give them different versions of government or, you know, mind control for them to chew on.
[02:00:05] Benjamin Balderson:
Well, I think where the problem comes in is is that they tried to make a one size fits all for too large of an area. Now my easy example for this even on a governmental, level And the religion is is I understand that the when they say separation of church and state, the idea that your religion isn't going to affect the way you view things is ridiculous. What they mean is is you can't strictly make laws based on religion and and keep other religions out. Now there's gonna be laws that that one religion's gonna think is good, and one is gonna think is bad. And because of your culture, you guys are gonna vote on the one that you guys think is good, and then that's gonna almost make it a religious law. But then there's a utilitarian cast to it behind it, which bends toward the actual law in and of itself because you couldn't make it based on the religion. You had to have a utilitarian reason to do it. So that's really where the separation of church and state comes in.
Yeah. And understand that when these people that came over, one of their motivating thoughts was the the what we were taught were religious extremists, and when we were in school were actually people that were trying to escape. So hen king James, before king James, there was the Geneva bible, for quite some time, and there was a few other translation bibles, and jeez. And, the king came in, outlawed every other bible, including the Geneva bible. There was a Geneva bible that was mid 1500, I think, and then there was a 1599 that the church, got behind where the church made some alterations into it.
Well, he took all that away, made it illegal. So when they came over the United States, what they call the pilgrims bible or the the, the bible that was originally from this country was, that bible and their bible had been outlawed and the King James bible forced. So that was all, you know, very heavily on the mindset of these people. So it's not that they weren't religious people, it's that they the king had just decided his own religion and had his own book written, and forced that over everything else. So that you've gotta have more of an understanding of the historical, surroundings to the measures people.
Obviously, these people are gonna have religion built into their decisions if you're religious at all. Now where the twisting came in, and I believe that this was, there's a few different routes you can look when you're talking about the western world or northern European people. Ever since Christianity, they've had issues, and they've been searching. If you look at it, I would make the case that, because when you look, in today's world, everybody wants to look at, you know, like, t the TV show Vikings where they show the Vikings going to Lindisfarne and sacking a church, and that's the that and they call that the beginning of the Viking era.
Pre Viking era, a long time. The Christians have been messing with the Vikings and cutting down their sacred forests for years. So heathens had things like Irminsil, which was a sacred tree, and, Charlemagne went and cut that down long before the Viking area and slaughtered an entire mass of people. So when you cut when we go and attack their churches later, it's like, oh my god. They're attaching our religious things. I don't know why. They're so bad. It's it's a ridiculous nonsense thing. But all around, you these things need to remain regional in my opinion.
And the going back to the California thing, Northern California, the culture and the people are entirely different than Southern California. So if you get from Sacramento South, everybody votes one way. If you get from Sacramento North, they all vote another way. So because the large mass of the population, the major cities are all from Sacramento South, which is 5 hours from the northern border. So we're not talking about a tiny little area. We're talking about the size of a normal state is left without any political power or any say so whatsoever because that's all been taken away by the people who live in the city. Now you take something so simple as the gun control issue.
If you're living in the city, it's easy enough to think the only reason that somebody would ever have a semi automatic rifle is because they're killing somebody. And they're trying to shoot people. In their minds, if your only other reason to possibly shoot a gun is you went out in the forest and climbed a tree and sat there and shot a deer with a scope and blah blah blah like that. They can't possibly imagine a rampaging bear charging through your through your your land, killing animals, and and tearing up your stuff and coming after people. And I don't wanna sit there and break my gun real fuck.
Like, yeah. You know? You you wanna just start pulling the trigger, and and you wanna sling a lot of lead really fast till that giant beast of a thing or mountain lions. And I personally have chased bears off my property, mountain lions Like, Like, why would anybody ever need to defend against that? So their entire mentality is different. Their entire life is different. So when you're looking at whether it's politics or it's religion, Again, in the heathen religion, for us, somebody would die if you turn them away from your door. Another half an hour down the road, they could freeze to death and be dead.
Like, that that doesn't apply in Hawaii. Like, why would they need that in their system? Oh, well, if you turn him away, he's just gonna pick some papaya off the tree over there and go hang out by the ocean. We'd be alright. Like, yeah, it's not the same living situation. So whether it's religiously or politically, in my opinion, to have these large, large territories, it just doesn't work. I think that's never gonna be a resolved issue.
[02:07:18] allen marcus:
Yeah. That's exactly where I'm thinking in terms of settling in America. The pilgrims show up. They're over there. They're on the coast. They're building their cities, and they build their universities. They build their theological seminaries in their Ivy League colleges, their universities. They train those people, and they all kinda stay there. Now when people with the manifest destiny decided that they were gonna take over the entire continent from sea to shining sea, People are moving west. And because of this regional regionalism issue, you get people, you know, shoving themselves into ghettos in New York City because that's very regional. But as the population grows and expands, they have to separate that to spread out and they have to move west. So as they're moving west and with the history of Christian churches with bibles and Christian churches, you have sort of this first generation in America who have attended the the the seminary's the schools. They've established that.
And then they kind of go a little bit west, but not all the way west because their family and their heritage is in, you know, New York City or Boston or wherever these established cities are. So those people that were pushed out, the outlaws, shall we say, the criminals, the people that were looking for gold and wealth and other things who didn't have a family attachment, they were moving west. And the further west they went, they they set down some roots. And then some other people said, okay. Well, we're not welcome here in this church or in this town, and they'd keep going west. But as that sort of drift kept moving west, you would find that the the pastor, the minister, the priest, the the the guy who was the religious figure, who would do the weddings and the funerals, he hadn't gone to theology school.
So he wasn't sticking to a strict doctrine according to a Catholic church or a Lutheran church. He wasn't affiliated with that. He might have had a father who was and through the grapevine, word-of-mouth and some literature and documents would get an idea of what a pastor would do. So you'd have a strict Lutheran church. You'd have a strict Catholic mass. But further west, they didn't have cathedrals. They didn't have those churches. They had smaller tents and revival meetings, which led to this idea of a basic distillation of Christian belief. You're a sinner. You have to ask for forgiveness. If you're not forgiven before you die and you're not a Christian, you go to hell. So you wanna become a Christian because there's fire and brimstone and Satan is real, and he's the adversary.
So you'd have this emotionalism built up in a tent revival meeting, and then people will start handling snakes and they start drinking poisons And then wanna look for the miracle aspect to prove that God is in this place under this tent. And the man who's on the platform, who's leading this church, is a man of god through these miraculous, abilities to drink poison, handle snakes, and not get bitten, and all these things. So with that ones are my favorite. Right. Right. Handling the snakes, doing the crazy acrobatics, putting on a real wild west sort of show to people who are just miners and workers and not thinkers and people who are going to colleges because they hadn't built them yet.
So that's sort of what middle America is. It's it's these people who were so far away from actual Lutheranism and actual Catholicism that they didn't follow the strict doctrine teachings. They didn't care if they were ordained. And in the church, especially, like, the Catholic church going back to Peter who built the who built the church upon the rock, who would then lay hands on the next apostle, who would lay hands on the next apostle. So you have that organization that passed on that, and it's really the Catholic church. Torch.
[02:11:31] Benjamin Balderson:
Say it again. Kinda like the Olympic torch?
[02:11:34] allen marcus:
The Olympic torch ceremony is the sort of continued legacy of we're lighting this fire here, and this fire is gonna spread to this other place. What I'm describing in terms of, like, America today and how it got to where it is with all of the churches, different denominations, They've split. They've split. They've split. They've split. They've split. They've done their own thing. And then they go to the government and file file a 5013c or some sort of tax form to say, well, we are recognizing ourself as a church. Okay. That's the first step. 2nd step is having the government recognize you as a church, but there is no recognition from the Catholic church. There's no recognition from the Lutheran church. So you have this idea where in America, anybody can start their own Christian church, do their own thing, and it can be a nondenominational Christian church.
It can be a small r church locally. That's a good thing. There are benefits to that. But recognizing the fact that within the Christian church itself, it doesn't agree with itself. It's not one thing. And that speaks to the point of not having a one size fits all government, not having a one size fits all capital or religion for everybody, but needing to be local, knowing your neighbors, and in good faith, attending a faith community with them in agreement is probably the best answer because that's how it worked in the past. And that's how it's gonna work today, and that's how it's gonna work in the future, probably.
So the function of religion to bind families together to then have these sort of tribal communities of fellowship of people in a small local setting has always been the most effective. I don't know why that's sort of seen as the worst thing to do, maybe because they don't have the biggest sound system and the best worship band, and they're not, like, Hillsong level quality. So to have to say, well, you know, we have to do this thing ourselves. We have to live our lives ourselves. We have to do it ourselves. Getting back to fundamentals is very inspiring to people who are saying, oh, what is my purpose? Well, your purpose is to live the best life possible.
How do you do that? And then the question becomes, well, to what degree does religion play into this? Probably not a whole lot. But the personal faith story of healing and redemption and love and reverence for your neighbor seems to be what the essential gospel message was at some point. And that's what was instilled in me by my parents. And to not disrespect them is to say, that's probably what I'll continue with because that's what I'm familiar with. So despite all the anecdotes of, well, it didn't work in that instance or that instance or that instance is because people are under this selfish act of there's not enough to go around, so I need to get mine first and cut the other guy off.
That's that's not what we do in a in a in a family or in a community. That's what we do if we're at war against everybody. So are we at war, and how do we live in this warring factions, post apocalyptic, mad max world that we seem to be finding ourselves in.
[02:15:35] John Roeland:
Yeah. I would, just a few, I'd say probably my my final words so I don't start repeating myself too much. But I would say, like, in the image of, like, passing the torch, what what exactly does the torch represent? What are we passing? What is it that is valuable about religion that we're trying to pass on? To my understanding, the value is to get somebody to open up to something higher than themselves, to a to a a realm higher than just this material realm. And I feel like we're at such a point in history where probably the best way to do that is sort of, by not telling people that's what you're doing.
So I think that's why I connect a lot with, Buddhism and Taoism because, again, Buddhism is the whole point of it is for you to find this higher this higher self, this Buddha mind, and that anyone can achieve it. And, where the other to me, a lot of the other religions are very much, based around, like, the story, and you have to believe well, especially Christianity, you have to believe in Jesus, and you have to, you know this is how you get saved, and there's all there's all these, like, kinda convoluted reasons for why we think this is important.
Meditation, contemplation, controlling your mind, controlling your thoughts, being mindful, that's the beginning. That's the entryway. That's the initiation into this higher way of thinking, which I think is the value of religion. I guess I'd have to call it lowercase r religion. The the the real, like, bond with God, the bond with nature, the bond with the spiritual realm. So I've just just wanted to add that as basically my my closing words, except I did wanna say, Confucius says a cardboard belt is a waste of paper.
[02:18:06] Benjamin Balderson:
That is true. I, where I'm from, Confucius say don't eat yellow snow. It's pretty pretty Confucius is wise.
[02:18:22] allen marcus:
So
[02:18:24] Benjamin Balderson:
I guess for me, I I, my big takeaway on the entirety of the thing is I don't see any one size fits all religion. I don't see any one size fits all politics. Even if I you, look at the founding of our country, there was a heavy emphasis on that it was a a a union of states and that the states retained the vast majority of the power. And if you look, the states on that side of the country are freaking tiny. I mean, wow. You can drive across to half of them in less than an hour, I swear. Like, you're paying toll bridges at the state borders, like, every 15 minutes. You're like, damn. I couldn't even smoke a joint. Holy cow. How is this so fast? You know? So these were really small regions, and the the focus was put on the states itself with basically more of a loose confederation that maintained heavy diplomacy and defense together.
Where now we're today where we see so many more problems, the shift of the shift of power has happened, and the federal, system now holds most of the power. Same thing with religions where it's become nationalized, world in worldwide for a lot of these. This is where I just see it being too many problems. I I feel like, my culture is is is has function better than the vast majority. But I just don't know that that's a prescription that I could hold out for everybody and even in the culture that I'm that, my people are from. It was tribal, so that was not something that was while most tribes were followed on, there was it's it's a pagan pantheon. You know? So, and I apologize. We didn't get into the part where, about why the religion's changed and scientism and things have become the new religion, and because that's a 2 hour show all by itself that delves back into the, heavily into the Jews.
And, where feminism and a lot of those things, when you look at the occult that they use, the new age movement, all those things, it's always Kabbalistic. They've consumed a lot of other names, but they don't follow any other things. They they'll display their gods like Pokemon cards, but they don't follow any other things. Cabalism is basically their entire basis. So that's an entire conversation all on its own. And I think that was probably on purpose. Not that I think the Christian, religion in my opinion was beneficial at all. Although neither are you 2 are particularly Christian, but when we are against somebody on that, from my perspective, this was always the, end result of that religion because anytime you have somebody that's there paying the debt for your sins and that you were never good enough, It's such a disempowering, demeaning religion to start out with, in my opinion, just the very notion of somebody paid your debt to now you're good. You're a saved person, but this other person that may have lived a good life, that actually worked hard at being a decent person.
You know, it's nothing about that. It's it's just about are you on team Jesus? Like, that that to me is just the most ridiculous notion. So, I think this is the natural consequence of that in religion anyways, But, I do think there was a hard corruption that was put in, but again, that would take a whole couple hours to to delve through that entire thing. So while and I and I would definitely represent my, culture and religion and say that I think that that's the way things should be ran, I can't a 100% at all be positive that I think anything any one prescription in any way, shape, or form covers the entire country or world or even state Or county. Or even the county. The so I don't know about that.
[02:23:19] allen marcus:
Yeah. Closing thoughts here. There's so much more to be said. It's not a comprehensive argument for every little thread that we target. And this idea of there needing to be a higher power, I can agree with that. I certainly see that in my own life. That's paid dividends. That's beared fruit, certainly. And in terms of introducing statistics, in terms of people who recovered and have done well, recovered from drug and alcohol abuse or any sort of sexual addiction or any sort of sinful lifestyle. Those people who have gone through specific Christian treatment programs have had better success.
So numbers wise, even including Alcoholics Anonymous or the AIA, AIA, those people who say, you know, there's a higher power, and I need to surrender myself to a higher power to not say that, you know, I can do everything on my own has led to people having better outcomes. And what we found tonight through this discussion with elements of debate is the need to be flexible, to be in good faith, to be, listening, to respond. And that's sort of where this idea of love and compassion comes in. To love fellow man and to trust them, but verify them with the words they're saying to say that instead of someone just walking around with a Bible and saying, I'm a a Christian. Trust me.
I'm a pastor. Trust me. I'm a politician. Vote for me, and your water's gonna be free of fluoride or toxicities. It gets back to localism, defeating globalism. We have this problem of a one world government, a one world religion, a one world economy that is not working. We knew that going into it. We know that in the middle of it and getting through that, the solution being localism, appealing to a higher power to say there is a spiritual dimension to things. We're not just brains with chemical activity that makes us attracted to certain people, and our sexuality becomes our personality, becomes our religion, becomes the thing that leads us to life to say that there's a higher power, there's a higher purpose, and there's higher ideals to live for, which would probably be a family and children and building an estate and land and planting apple trees and fruit trees and then giving that on to a legacy is probably the point of living.
And if we can return to that and leave capital r religion aside and follow the way that works, I think that we will be living well and better than a majority of people. And by bearing fruit, there will be jealousy where people will say, hey. That seems to be working. Can you teach me what's going on over here?
[02:27:00] John Roeland:
Hey. I texted my sister. It's altruism.
[02:27:08] Benjamin Balderson:
So the problem with altruism being that, again, this is the good. And when you say the good, like, if you go and look at most people in these major cities where they've the largest clusters of people that have completely lost their mind reside, they're being good to each other. They wish the best for each other. And I think that in a in having these debates at all in humanity, the first thing that people need to understand is nobody's like, I'm evil. You know, everybody's altruistic. Like, nobody's doing no. I mean, I'm sure that throughout history, somebody's existed that enjoyed being a douche, But even the ones that usually, even the ones that we consider evil, they just see it the path different than you. They still want the most benefit in their mind. They in their mind, they're taking the most beneficial path.
And they're not like, I'm just destroying to destroy. They're not, you know, like a 5 year old kicking over a sand castle.
[02:28:15] John Roeland:
Yeah. The definition, the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. So I guess doing it without any thought of, you know, you're gonna get, better karma or you're doing it because you're following some code or something like that. So, anyway, just wanted to throw that in there. Good talk, you guys. That was a that was a deep one, and I I I keep learning more, like I probably say, every week. So,
[02:28:54] Benjamin Balderson:
I said I I I can't wait till personally. I I get a little more pushback than I do, but, just to because I also want to have some of those moments. You know, like, where I'm I'm like, oh, shit. I need to shore this up. This isn't quite
[02:29:11] allen marcus:
We figured that you being a heathen in a Christian nation every day is a struggle and persecution for you. Right. Right. You figure I get it up. We're trying to go easy on you.
[02:29:23] Benjamin Balderson:
I I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And I appreciate your altruism, everyone.
[02:29:28] allen marcus:
Thanks for the kind comments.
[02:29:30] John Roeland:
Yeah. Definitely. And leave some, leave some comments after the fact too. If you guys have any questions, we will start going through those and and addressing those.
[02:29:41] Benjamin Balderson:
Yes, sir. And, we're about to get to where we're gonna start asking some other people on and getting down to the nitty gritty of it, I think. But, absolutely, this has been a gas, guys. I thank you guys again. This has just been wonderful.
[02:29:58] John Roeland:
Alright, everybody. You guys have a good night.
Opening Monologue on Religion and Nothingness
Introduction of Hosts and Tonight's Topic
Etymology and Definitions of Religion
Personal Religious Journeys
Agnosticism and Utilitarianism
Heathenism and Tribal Societies
Distinction Between Organized Religion and Personal Faith
Religion, Politics, and Society
Middle Path and Morality
Regionalism and Religion
Shift from Religion to Scientism and Technocracy
Higher Power and Localism
Final Thoughts and Reflections
