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• The 10 Golden Rules of the Red Pill: A Critical Analysis
• Red Pill Ideologies, Rules, and Misconceptions
• Navigating the Manosphere: From Blue to Red to Black Pill
• Red Pill Realities: Self-Improvement and Relationship Dynamics
• The Truth Behind Feminist Red Pill Beliefs

Deliberating Dogface Dudes #3 - The Red Pill Prescription #3DDebates

Streamed live on July 30, 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_dtN4fHMgk

We start by breaking down the various 'pills' that define different ideologies within the manosphere, from the blue pill to the black pill. We discuss the spectrum of beliefs, from those who are unaware of societal issues affecting men to those who believe in genetic determinism and hypergamy. 

We also explore the 10 golden rules of the red pill, analyzing each rule's implications and discussing their relevance and validity. From the importance of self-improvement to the pitfalls of hookup culture. 

We also touch on the criticisms and misconceptions surrounding the red pill community, including accusations of misogyny and racism. Finally, we offer our own perspectives on how to navigate relationships and self-improvement in a more balanced and positive way. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that aims to shed light on a complex and often polarizing topic.

(00:00:08) Zoomer tells us about Pills

(00:04:45) Deliberating Dog Face Dudes

(00:06:00) Matrix and Manosphere

(00:07:11) Red Pill Golden Rules

(00:18:03) Rule 1: Never Take Care of Another Man's Seed

(00:23:04) Rule 2: Never Finance a Woman's Lifestyle

(00:29:26) Rule 3: Don't Let Her Looks Turn You Into a Sucker

(00:36:04) Rule 4: Pay Attention to Her Actions, Not Her Words

(00:41:25) Rule 5: Never Marry or Move In Without Knowing Her for 1-2 Years

(00:46:01) Rule 6: Never Be Responsible for Her Problems

(00:53:46) Rule 7: Never Fight or Argue with a Woman

(01:01:04) Rule 8: Don't Be Manipulated by Sex

(01:03:57) Rule 9: Don't Confuse Lust for Love

(01:10:00) Rule 10: Never Beg for Female Attention or Validation

(01:25:00) Shocking Beliefs of the Red Pill Community

(01:33:34) Belief 1: Female Supremacy Movement Exists

(01:36:27) Belief 2: Women Are Illogical and Manipulative

(01:40:12) Belief 3: Women Are Hypergamous

(01:51:00) Belief 4: Women Need Men More Than Men Need Women

(01:54:04) Belief 5: Women Are Depreciating Assets

(01:57:03) Belief 6: 20% of Men Have Sex with 80% of Women

(02:03:00) Belief 7: White Men Are Not Privileged

(02:11:58) Positive Affirmations and Closing Thoughts

- allen marcus

- Benjamin Balderson

- John Roeland

https://serve.podhome.fm/deliberatingdogfacedudes

https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/deliberatingdogfacedudes/3

[00:00:08] Unknown:

A peasant, broky, Wagy, Pion. Oh, it's massaging. It's toxic mask.   You're a beta.   I'm 4 time kickboxing world champion.   Pull up in the Bugatti Sheeran.   Sparkling water only.  

[00:00:22] Unknown:

You're scared of bubbles. Pussy. But more on that later. At this point in time, there are so many different pills   and ways to define them. It's all so goofy, all these Internet terms,   but,   I'll just formulate them in a way that,   that I feel like is most that's most intuitive or easy to understand. So we have a spectrum.   At one poll, you have the blue pill.   At the other poll, you have the black pill. Nobody really claims the blue pill. It's just sort of a name for people who are unaware   of what's going on   or who are in denial of what's going on. They deny   that there is a problem   with men   or with society   in the first place. Everything's going good. Then going down a little bit, you have people   that acknowledge there is a problem, understand what's going on, but they favor explanations   or solutions to this problem that are still counter to the red bill.  

It's important to mention that the red bill is largely   a a very right wing   ideology. At least according to the way politics have organized themselves right now, if you ask somebody if they're red pill and they say yes, there's pretty much no shot. They're they're going to be,   culturally liberal. Next up, we have the red pill, which is so massive and hard to define, but I'll just do it anyways. It's,   it's the acknowledgment of all these problems, but also   the belief that you can fix them.   And,   it advocates for things like embracing your masculinity. People in the red pill believe,   modern men are not masculine and modern women are way too masculine. I'm still looking at it through the lens of gender dynamics because that's how it started, but the red pill has ascended that. Anyways, let's go down to the black pill. The black pill hasn't really gotten as large as the red pill, and it's still   limited to topics of dating pretty much for the most part. The black pill also acknowledges all these problems, whatever, but it is the mindset   that   it's pretty much over   for a lot of men   who are average or below average.  

It's this heavy   focus on genetic determinism   and the way you look,   having the biggest impact on your dating life, and it also extends to your life in general. The red pill and the black pill both agree on this idea of hypergamy,   which is pretty much where women date up.   They want the top 20% of men pretty much exclusively   because they face the burdens of reproduction   so they're more selective. But one of the biggest differences is that people who subscribe to the red pill would say that any man could get to the top 20%   if they put in enough effort,   enough work into themselves.  

While the black bill would say it's not possible for everyone, it's a largely genetic distinction. Now it's obvious that by definition, not every man could get into the top 20% technically,   but I think the red pill says there's there's so little competition,   and so little people who will genuinely work hard for a long amount of time that allows you to get into this top 20%. So that brings the question which pill is right. And, I don't know. I'm actually ashamed. I know what any of this is. But in my opinion,   nobody on the Internet is going to be able to   accurately   prescribe   why you're unable to get bitches. That's gonna take some introspection   on your part. Okay? It could be for so many reasons,   intrinsic or extrinsic,   in your control, out of your control. It's probably a combination   of all sorts of things. The way the black pill focuses on looks and the belief that looks are very important is low key what a lot of people   intrinsically think anyway.  

When you see a hot person   and a ugly person together, you're kinda like, wait. This doesn't add up.   What's going on here? And it makes sense, you know. Studies show that people judge each other within 1 tenth of a second. When you see somebody, you have judged them within 1 tenth of a second.  

[00:04:45] John Roeland:

Alright.  

[00:04:48] John Roeland:

What's up, Benjamin? What's up, Alan?  

[00:04:51] John Roeland:

Oh,   welcome back to deliberating   dog face dudes.  

[00:04:58] John Roeland:

Good good to be here.  

[00:04:59] allen marcus:

Feeling feisty tonight.   Feisty.   Gonna argue some points tonight.  

[00:05:05] John Roeland:

That was a interesting little interesting little video.   Lindsay, I would,   happen to agree,   or at least, too dominant in this   culture. I would have to say that,   that was kinda interesting. I hadn't really thought of it in that particular context where I I do agree that we're in a feminine society.   I hadn't really thought of it that in that overall context, but that was   interesting.  

[00:05:39] allen marcus:

So he's describing pills. There's this idea that   a lot of young people want to categorize things.   So when we get the Matrix movie   and they have the scene where it's like, we'll take the red pill, you see reality. Take the blue pill, you stay asleep,   and you're just kind of naive. And you go about your business, and you don't really have to know what's going on.   But once you take the red pill, you can't unsee these things.   So the manosphere,   they were already describing   things that they were noticing   amongst themselves, and they were   playing the field. They were going on dates. They were hooking up with women. They were trying different pickup lines. They were trying to figure out, well, what's going on with technology now?  

A little bit has changed where women   have phones, and they're using dating apps, and they're going to clubs. And the things have shifted. They've changed with technology.   So recognize recognizing that technology has changed changed the dating field in some ways,   and then describing the sit situation as having taken the red pill, now you can't unsee that. So having this information,   what it is, it's information,   statistics, maybe some some numbers,   more or less anecdotal evidence.   But the an anecdotal evidence was reproduced over and over and over and again by these guys who say, well,   now let's begin to formalize this information   into   books and and things after posting blogs and forums.  

They'd they'd receive the comments, they'd rewrite the stuff, and they'd publish books.   So that is then been distilled down to viral Facebook posts of which we have tonight,   the 10 golden rules of the red pill.  

[00:07:24] John Roeland:

I just wanted to know at what point in this process that they personally call you.  

[00:07:29] allen marcus:

The women  

[00:07:30] John Roeland:

on the phone? No. The the the during the book process and, the making the rules and   all that kind. Where where where is it that they call you stands in that?  

[00:07:42] allen marcus:

Who's the you?   Am I the me? Art Marcus. They call me up on the phone. Marcus.com.   Yeah. I've got a website. I say, hey. We're talking about these issues, and they call me up and say, hey. I've got a book.  

[00:07:55] John Roeland:

Okay. What what part in the process does that happen? I'm I was just curious because I noticed you left that part out, and that seems to be an integral   part of the   of the process.  

[00:08:06] allen marcus:

Yeah. So a specific Reddit poster, an infamous Reddit poster did make contact with me. We do have   a copy of his book, and we're working with him to   decide   how we're going to proceed with,  

[00:08:21] John Roeland:

an interview or live stream never even heard of me, so it's not we. Maybe he knows John. I don't know. The guy that I don't  

[00:08:28] allen marcus:

Well, he saw my website. It's the,   website.  

[00:08:33] John Roeland:

I I just wanna say,   in looking at this You can't do it. This topic or   this genre,   I guess it's my one thought is, is, hasn't it always been this way? So I think that points to your   comment, Marcus, that it's the technology that's really   playing it out in this way where it's so defined and it's, you know, there's communities   based around it. And but, I mean, thinking back in time,   women were always looking   at what they considered valuable in a man, and   more attractive women are gonna end up with more attractive men.   And but that doesn't leave the less attractive people,   you know, or the lower classes for lack of a better term or the working class with nothing.  

It just leaves them with a different a different group of people. So maybe, I guess, the question is where did we go to where everyone wants the top, everyone wants the number 10 or, you know, the 10   woman   instead of just being comfortable with who you are and where you land in that hierarchy.   And, you know, it seems to me that that issue would be from the beginning of humanity.   And so the way that it's being defined now, like, you're a loser if you can't get a 10,   that has to do, I think, with technology and culture and   where we are now. So   just a little comment.  



[00:10:12] John Roeland:

I I I wouldn't disagree.   The whole problem is is that   whole thing that, Marcus was talking about, they really kinda   lump numerous things together. It's not just one thing.   So, specifically, with the technology   aspect of it,   what the what the problem is is,   before the technology,   you know, you could isolate people and and that's just the way it was. You had   certain groups.   And and   you had a friend group and and that was from your little city or your region.   You might go visit a group over here, like, where I'm from.   When I went to high school, it was Groton, and maybe you went and hooked up with the people over in Webster.  

You know? But, that was, like, exotic and shit. You know? And it and it was stories about how bad the cops and guys in Webster were and how   awesome the girls in Webster were. You know? And that's just,   the small town nonsense. But   what the problem with the technology is is   now   and this really kind of goes both ways a little bit, but things just operate differently for men than women. But women who normally would not have had gotten the chance to throw themselves or   present themselves to   a lot of these men, where there might have been 1 or 2 guys in their town or area that was where this top echelon.   And those guys were taken up by a group, so then it was already understood. Well, now all the girls get to splash themselves to all the guy all of them upper echelon guys or high value guys   across the entire board.  

So at some point in time,   they don't even pay attention to anything below that because now that they have a a wide variety of good ones,   you know, the tens, well, why would you go for less? Well, you know, if you can shoot it.   And that the fact is is while   a lot of today's younger girls don't understand the difference between attention   for   just sexual purposes   and attention for,   greater purposes.   And they will take the sexual purposes and think that that   that makes them valuable   because,   somebody's just willing to have sex with them   and   continue on with that until it's too late a lot of times it seems. But that the technology's really spiked that just because of availability.  



[00:12:51] allen marcus:

When you're talking about availability, I'm thinking more in terms of the availability of information.   So with the red pill communities forming on different message boards using the Internet to connect with other men and to share this information,   that would have taken years years years   to hear your uncle and your dad talk about behind your back. So this is information   that a lot of men who   we might assume were born from,   into a single parent family, so they only had a mother at home. They didn't have male influence. A lot of these guys   would never encounter this information unless they specifically went to these forums.  

So   with that said,   the viral posts   of these red pill golden rules   found their virility in the fact that literally they were   potent. They were powerful, and they empowered men. So they were spread everywhere, and the guys began to talk about it and to share those rules and kind of   compare notes and make their own lists.   So this note with   10   red pill golden rules   in no particular order from an anonymous   collective who   gave us 10 sentences   that are deemed 10 golden rules.   Do we wanna get into the first one right away?   Let's do it. So these are in these are in no particular order. This is from a viral Facebook post. Don't know who the author is.  

We'll start with number 1. Never take care of another man's seed.   Put another way,   if the child is not your son or daughter Marcus. One at a time, Marcus. The son is if the child is not your son or daughter,   don't take care of that child.  

[00:14:40] John Roeland:

I guess I'll start.   That's   hot steamy shit.   If you're,   dating a woman,   you know, I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, I understand that baked into this   is the concept that you're supposed to be trying trying to find a girl with a low body count, preferably a virgin, you know, from the way this and I I again, even what I was saying before, this isn't my ideas, but this is what they're saying. So I understand that. I   ideas, but this is what they're saying. So I understand that that's kind of baked into that cake, I guess.   So   but   if you're so so I mean, if the number one rule is never date a single mother,   okay, but that's not what you're saying. Never take care of another man's seed. That's   that's some hot steamy shit. If you're if you if that woman   is somebody you find a future with and a potential future with, and she happens to have a kid, which I'm not saying be captain save a hole and all that. But if you find a woman that you think is, worth a potential future,   then certainly   if she has a child, then that child you are taking on that responsibility.  

I mean, you're not his dad, you're not his parent, that should be recognized and understood.   But   to to say, oh, I'm not gonna take care of your kid, screw your kid. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna have sex with you. That's some   real scummy scumminess right out the gate.  

[00:16:16] John Roeland:

Yeah. I agree with you, Ben,   as a person that is a stepfather   myself.   I think that this points to   what I've   come to understand about this movement is   if the red pill really means going down the rabbit hole that these guys didn't go   all the way, or they've stopped at a certain plateau   of the rabbit hole, which is all focused on   validation from women,   relationships,   valuing   some relationship with a woman,   you know, really putting an emphasis on your masculinity   and proving that you're a man and somehow, like, not taking care of someone else's kid makes you more manly.   For me,   personally, I've always valued   children and raising children and the importance of that. And as a person who does want to see the world be a better place,   I think more, you know, men should be able to step up into that role. Now in my situation, the the my my son's   father   is totally involved. And in that case, I've even chosen to kind of take a step back and be a little more hands off because I'm understanding my role there as his stepdad,   You know, another voice to talk to, but I'm not the ultimate one making decisions for what happens with him.  

And,   so yeah. I just think it points to the values of this movement, which may not be held by everybody in the movement, but it's all about   status and   proving that you're a masculine guy and, you know, kind of that Andrew Tate   shtick.   So,   yeah, for me personally, I think this is is pretty bad.  

[00:18:03] allen marcus:

As a hard and fast rule to say never take care of another man's seed, period,   doesn't take into account well, what if she's widowed?   What if the father has died? There's other there's other considerations.   This might also bring to mind the obsession they have with paternity tests.   So if she says she's pregnant, get a paternity test, find out who the actual father is, this type of thing. It might point to a greater issue of   men being afraid of the the children issue. It's a very immature position to hold,   to be so hard and fast about, you know, I'm never taking care of   another woman's kids. If she has children, I I won't even date her.  

In in this world where   children   are   the reason men and women come together   at some point being completely just fidgety   and uncomfortable with   children in any form,   that's gonna be a red flag to women.   So that's not a good look for a man coming into a conversation.   It's hard and fast rule.   There's gotta be some nuance and some reflection to say, well,   at that's at what stage of your life?   You're a young man. You don't wanna take care of children, surely,   but the red pill   and these concepts   are for men at every stage of life and   all ages. Right?  



[00:19:27] John Roeland:

Well, another point to add to that is   the awareness that those children in those situations, single single parent homes where their mom is the only one there, those are the ones that get preyed on   by   by predators.   So I think, again,   these guys, you know, are they're just focusing this   philosophy   on relationships   and feeling dominant and feeling like a player,   And,   they're not really looking at the actual issues,   the actual truth of what's going on in the world   and, you know, playing a part in, you know, trying   to trying to I mean, you know, you can't do much to prevent human trafficking, but you could take care of a kid and make sure that that kid is safe.  

And, you know, to me that's that's playing a part.  

[00:20:21] John Roeland:

Yeah. It's the flavor of the never take care of another man's seat.   If   if you   differentiated   never date single mothers.   I can handle that.   That doesn't have this overtone of you're gonna have sex with the woman and not take care of some responsibilities.   So you're you're just kind of a douche.   Like, that's that's just all there is to it. I mean   so   I mean, honestly, if you were just like,   I won't raise other men's kids, blah blah blah, you know,   you're kind of a dickhead, but whatever. You aren't.   I I find this scummy or where   you're like, yeah, well, I'll go get the milk, but, I'm not gonna take care of the cow.  

You know, nor the nor feed the cow's calf that brought the milk or anything like that. It just seems   real real scummy. I mean,   the the interesting part about this list overall is that back end of the list   gets pretty reasonable.   And the front end of the list, like, to put this as number 1, like, myself as a man, like,   even to refer to a kid as another man's seed. I I I'm with John, like,   I've helped   babysit,   raise, been around all kinds of kids that aren't mine, aren't women's that are dating.   The general rule, in my opinion,   is if there's a kid around, you treat that kid like you you basically treat all kids the same. You don't   your kid's your kid, obviously. But if there's kid around and they need something, you take care of it. It's just how it is.  

A kids can't kids can't take care of themselves. This is your this is your responsibility as an adult.   So I I don't even understand this number 1.  

[00:22:08] allen marcus:

And it can get real disgusting if   men   are shaming other men who   are seeing a woman, and then they learn that, well, she had prior children   To say that that man needs to dump that woman because   don't take care of another man's seed, bro, is   oh, that's gonna be real hard.   Real hard.  

[00:22:32] John Roeland:

James Maiden used to   hell.  

[00:22:37] allen marcus:

That might this this rule kind of connects this idea of bet,   they call them beta bucks. Basically, the the men went on alpha, but they're beta, so they'll be good providers.   So then to be placed into this bucket of beta bucks where, well, you're getting a woman, but she's only interested in you because you're gonna pay for her children. Kinda gets into number 2, which is never finance a woman's lifestyle   at all, I guess.   Don't pay her money.  

[00:23:08] John Roeland:

Like yeah. That that would have to be fleshed out a little bit to for me to really   woman that, might just be,   woman that might just be   financially needy where she   is.   We've all met girls that have 3, 4 kids with, different dudes.   They get, you know, they need somebody to support them or take care of them, help them. I understand not trying to   telling guys don't try and be that dude who just goes and deals with that kind of thing just to get his his peepee touched.   I I understand that.   But that's a whole lot different than I mean,   I never finance a woman's lifestyle. My wife is   a homemaker. How the fuck is she supposed to make it without me financing it? I don't   I don't know what to what degree does this happen? I don't understand. Like, if you're looking for a traditional relationship,   my wife is entirely financially dependent on me.  

And and I am entirely   dependent on her for quite for things.   So there's a an exchange in the relationship.   I don't understand.   Honestly, traditionally, that is the man's place to   rather   rather finance   her life's   I don't   again, this just seems like a get the get the milk, but don't take care of the cow scenario number 1 and number 2. It seems like that's like, when those are your too hard fat, your too hard rules that you can boil things down to,   it really just seems to me like   you you just want,   number 1, if she's a good woman,   she's not gonna deal with your ass. And why should she?  

You know, like, you basically are looking for free hookers   from the way it's from the way it sounds at that point.   So I I don't   I don't see where these are these are great for any young man to   maybe with   some type of   more   nuance, it could somehow be something reasonable, but just as this, no.  

[00:25:27] John Roeland:

Yeah. You took the words out of my mouth, Ben, in terms of it sounding   almost like you're you're talking about an escort or something like that. Like like, if you see a woman who is willing to go out with you because you have money and you can pay for a trip to Vegas or   or whatever it is, then   if that's the kind of woman you're going after, then   there is a part of it that involves   you having money   and you being able to provide her with, you know, the lifestyle.   But, yeah, if if you're looking for a woman to settle down with, then that implies   some type of economic partnership,   you know, whether it's the man providing   completely for the woman or   both people working together to create a lifestyle and sustain a lifestyle.  

So, yeah, it just again, sounds like   this is directed for hookup culture for guys that are trying to   get laid and be players.   And I I I did wanna point out again, like, Ben, you said Captain Save A Ho. That comes from a a Bay Area rap artist,   e 40.   Back in the mid nineties, they came out with the song Captain Save Oh. And it's I mean, it's to me, it's the beginning of all of this.   This is, you know, pimp culture, the game,   being a player,   never you know, the woman pays you. You don't pay the woman.   So,   and going along those lines in some of the research I did,   Patrice O'Neil,   the comedian,   he, in the early 2000, was one of the,   one of the   yeah. Rest in peace. He was one of the first people talking about this stuff on Opie and Anthony and,   I forget the other guy. Something Lycus, Tom Lycus,   and Patrice O'Neil would go go on there. And, the one thing I heard him say was, I'm just tired of in this society that men are are looked down upon for being men, but women are praised for being whatever they want. And so, apparently,   that had some influence on,   the growth of this   this philosophy.  



[00:27:49] John Roeland:

Well, I I can totally understand that. What I don't,   our society never tends to go back to reasonable. It's like, oh, here's something really stupid. I'm gonna go ahead and react to it with something equally as stupid. I I I can totally see what you're saying.  

[00:28:05] allen marcus:

Well, someone has to pay bills   somehow, some of the time.   And if you're broadcasting   to everyone that you're a cheapskate,   then word's gonna get around. Your reputation   is not paying for anything ever.   You're not gonna get a second date on that. And then does the corollary apply as well, like, never let a woman finance a man's lifestyle?   At some point, the money conversation is gonna come into play where you're gonna wanna do things together. Money's gonna have to be   discussed at some point.   But to make it a a focus of a hard and fast rule to say never finance   a woman, I   it's not making much sense.  



[00:28:53] John Roeland:

Yeah. See, I knew that we'd be able to do other ones. These are very succinct, and they didn't   they they don't require as much nuance to as last week's discussion, I knew we'd be able to get other things in. Go ahead with number number 4. I don't know. Or   number 3.  

[00:29:08] allen marcus:

Number 3.  

[00:29:09] John Roeland:

I think we're all kinda on the same page. And, Jared,   what's up?  

[00:29:17] allen marcus:

Number 3 of the 10 golden rules of the red pill,   don't let her looks turn you into a sucker.  

[00:29:27] John Roeland:

So this is the first reasonable   rule that we have   and that I would, I would agree with.   Hard not to agree with this. Don't let somebody's looks. But   in that, I would also put that   they already have this whole   baked into it that the only valuable women are these women that are,   physically   tens or nines or whatever   number they think that they're you know, I assume that they're shooting for the top   20%, the same as they're claiming women are doing. So you're already putting,   hyper emphasis   on the looks.   That's already got you choosing,   now instead of choosing a woman   based on your compatibility   and your,   what you want.  

Like, there's that old song, you know, if you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, you know, about   don't make a pretty woman. You're like, well, like, that that   there's a lot of things you can say. Are you just looking at her as a showpiece?   Because   I don't care honestly what anybody would rate my wife as numerically   as,   physically attractiveness on like you looked at a picture of her because that's what you're talking about with physical attraction. Like, that's just a picture.   The the fact is that I've dated 10 that girls that are flat tens,   and   most of them are horribly needy. They have no understanding that anybody else is in the relationship besides them.  

There's nothing enjoyable about them.   I my wife's my best friend, my partner.   I I truly enjoy being around her. When she's not around, I fret and I'm miserable.   Not because I can't function, but because I feel like there's a piece of me and it's like, I don't inter rely on her to do my things, but when I'm not with her, I I don't like it.   I mean, I'm not   a little kid who can't get by without it. Christy and I spent, you know, just the other just this last weekend, we were apart for, like, 3 days.   And,   when we moved here, I spent heck the year we moved here we moved here. I think I only seen her maybe a third of the year,   because we were busy. But   I would definitely prefer my life is greater and richer and more enjoyable when she's in it. That's a fact. That's why I married her. And,   isolate yourself down to something based off of physical appearance, which is a fleeting thing at best.  

At best,   that's you're you're already putting yourself on a on a real dumb   level. So that's   I think that's already kind of baked into this because you're looking for the high the higher value women.   But I I do agree with the sentiment. Don't don't let people's looks turn you into a sucker. I in fact, I have a   a rule where   especially with politicians, if they're attractive,   they are probably extra evil.   Yeah. Like   cause they're gonna get away with more shit.  

[00:32:46] John Roeland:

Alla Gavin Newsom.   Not that I think he's attractive, but,   I would say   a much better way to word this would be,   treat women with the same respect   despite their looks.   Now it doesn't mean how don't have any discrimination, and it doesn't mean you have to, you know, pay as much time or attention to each woman. But to be respectful,   kind, hello, well mannered,   is gonna go a long way   with   everybody in life. And it's gonna help you to not turn into a sucker just because   this girl is really hot   and,   kinda make yourself look like a fool or,   you know, trying too hard. Right?  

And,   also,   I've had many situations where,   I ended up falling for women who I wasn't really that attracted to in the beginning.   But by getting to know them more and knowing their personality, they became more and more attractive.   So   you're kind of,   yeah. Again, this is obviously   aimed at,   you know, you're just going for these hot women, and you got to act cool even though they're really hot, you know, but,   yeah, there's something deeper to it.  

[00:34:06] allen marcus:

Might be a fear of Medusa. If   it literally reads, don't let her looks turn you into a sucker, is this a concern about making eye contact?   If you can't even make eye contact with a woman, feel   calm.   How are you gonna   get even closer and approach her and have a conversation with her? If you're so befuddled by   her looks maxing and her glow ups,   There's more there's more problems in your own life you'll need to address. There's also the idea of ugly ducklings for men and for women   at some point out of high school, out of college,   getting through the stress eating and the baby fat and and finally having   in the adult   ability to feed yourself well and work out and exercise and buy clothing.  

At some point,   that's the goal is to look your best, to feel your best, to dress your best.   Not everyone is dressed their best at a grocery store. If they're running errands, this type of thing, you haven't   seen her at her best.   So how would you even   know what she looks like?   More questions and answers here.  

[00:35:24] John Roeland:

Yeah. That again, that's your first reasonable rule. Don't let   looks make you treat a girl different just because she's   like, what you what you find attractive doesn't mean that you need to start acting different, doesn't mean that you need to,   be different. Don't let her do things you wouldn't normally let a girl do.   Like,   you should, no matter what they look like, that's not that shouldn't even be one of the particular factors that you're looking at with the idea that obviously you need to be attracted to a partner.   But don't let that that should not be your big a big consideration   for you.  



[00:36:04] allen marcus:

Does that bring us to 4?   Pay attention to her actions,   not her words.   Actions speak louder than words.  

[00:36:17] John Roeland:

This is,   honestly, I I feel like   this should have been like   number 1   in large capital letters, and it it needs to apply for interactions with human beings.   I I think that this is   in today's society   where we all are   in this emperor wears no clothes world where we all need to pretend things for other people's benefits.   I I I I think that this is just such a rule that people need to like, write that shit on your hand.   Like, people should be keeping this in mind   all the time. So   can can I I can't agree more in a dating scenario   100%.  

I think you could couple it with number 3, where just because she's good looking   and you think that she's   super hot or whatever,   you know,   don't let her start don't let her do things that you would not.   Don't let her do things that you wouldn't do if the chick acts out of line. Just don't date that chick.   And, you know, again, this just is a good one period for all of society to start   really buckling down on. Write it down on your hands, people. Hi.   Also, if you want free cat,   you can't have this one.   You can have Yeah. This,  

[00:37:52] John Roeland:

this one   kinda doesn't seem to fit   with the list.   Pay attention to her actions, not her words.   If you're so focused on   looks and,   I don't know. It almost seems like this one, you're now looking for   an honest woman,   by by looking at her actions, a woman of integrity, all of a sudden, that's important.   Obviously, this is an important rule for life in general.   Pay attention to people's actions, not their words.   But, yeah, I guess I'm just a little thrown off of how it fits in with this   with this list.   Right? Like, what's she gonna say to you?   If she's gonna say,   like, she wants to get laid,   then,   she probably wants to. You know, she's probably not gonna say that unless she's interested in you. So   if you're in the hookup world, the actions and words would seem to be   probably in line, I would think. And so yeah. I guess I guess, again, I'm just kinda thrown off on this one in in terms of this list.  



[00:39:09] allen marcus:

You touched on the the integrity. I suppose there's an aspect of accountability. Is she doing what she's saying she's doing? And, also, it implies demand. Is he doing   what he says he's doing? So to make the declaration, you know, pay attention to her actions,   not her words,   Seems to stem from a distrust of women to say that they're going to say one thing   and then do another thing. So keep your guard up and always be expecting her   words and actions not to match up, which then already puts a wall between you and her, not not allowing for sort of connection and intimacy that might   otherwise happen.  

So so far with these golden rules, they seem to be   easily misinterpreted   and could actually   backfire   and cause the man to be forever alone   if he's not,   you know, considering that there's nuance to this and there's a misunderstanding.  

[00:40:08] John Roeland:

You you kinda cleared that up for me a little bit, Alan, because I I have had situations   where,   been in a relationship with a woman and,   all of a sudden, she's losing interest, and I can tell she's losing interest by her   actions. And then when I   say, hey. Like, it seems like there's something wrong. No. There's nothing wrong with me. There must be something wrong with you.   But, again,   I understand. Pay attention to her actions, not her words. And I'm like, okay. I'm out   because, you know, after 3 or 4 times of doing this, like, I'm not gonna keep going along and thinking everything's cool even though, obviously, you don't want anything to do with me. So   you you you kinda helped it make a little more sense there,   and I could see where   some men could act like suckers in that situation   and keep trying, keep trying, keep trying.  

And I think my personal take on that is that women   don't want to be the one to end it. They don't want to be,   the one to hurt your feelings.   So they kind of   act that way so you'll break up with them.   That that's been my experience.  

[00:41:25] allen marcus:

And that gets us into   number 5,   kinda get in into a trap where they can't break up with you   if you're signed a lease together.   5 says never marry or move in with a girl unless you've known her for, they say, 1 to 2 years.  

[00:41:45] John Roeland:

Also an agreeable rule.   I don't know that I would   just put that for rules for dating.   I would tell my daughters   the same thing. I have 3 daughters.   You know? If you are gonna considering   making   the leap to a more   substantial permanent relationship,   Don't start involving yourself in things where you're getting financially tied, where you're   possibly having kids, where you're doing all these things that you should be doing with somebody in a long term relationship   with somebody you're not sure yet you even wanna do that with. Like, that's that's just good dating advice,   period. I mean, I don't know that that's   really even fits into this.  

They they're they're really kind of all over the place with it the way that mentality is. But that that one, I I can't disagree with.   But again, I would give the same advice to my daughters. Don't don't   go running off and get married to some dude you met 2 weeks ago.   In 6 months, you might realize you hate that guy. Like, you can't stand him. Like, it doesn't make sense. So   I think I think that's probably just good and good advice for a dating person.  

[00:43:02] John Roeland:

Yeah. I agree. I don't really have much to add on that. That's,   generally good advice   for people in general. And, again, it's encouraging   more of,   taking your time with somebody and developing,   an   yeah, not much to add. Culture. So,   yeah, not much to add.  

[00:43:30] allen marcus:

So 5 connects with number 2, saying never finance a woman's lifestyle.   No. Don't pay her rent. Don't give her a place to live. This sort of, stinginess   is not a good look for guys To say never marry or move in or become roommates,   never say never. I mean, there's plenty of romantic comedy movies that have been real enjoyable   when 2 people move in together,   and they experience   all the,   the feelings   of dirty laundry and dirty dishes, and someone's gotta be an adult in that situation.   Maybe you do wanna,   you know, get a Airbnb for a month and see how it goes. Maybe you wanna force the issue along a little bit and and see who's who's really serious about it.   But to say never do that?  



[00:44:19] John Roeland:

Well, this this rule wouldn't apply for a Jack Tripper.  

[00:44:24] John Roeland:

Well, and to to,   statistically,   if you, in a long term relationship, want it to work longer, statistically,   I believe it's something like 12 to 14%   greater chance if you wait   until after you're married to live together   that I think it's something between 12 14%   greater chance of that than extending   as opposed to if you live together then get married.   For whatever reason,   statistically, it doesn't and it's a substantial   jump.   If you,   again, are trying to be in a long term relationship,   that you want to be permanent.   And,   apparently not living with that person ahead of time and taking your time instead to   choose   wisely,   that's, apparently the move.  

Surprise,   surprise.  

[00:45:27] allen marcus:

Number 6 reads,   never be responsible for her economic problems,   social problems,   or family problems.  

[00:45:42] John Roeland:

I mean,   he didn't you cover that with,   number 2, kinda never finance a woman's lifestyle, never be responsible   a bit redundant?   The   social and family problems.   I I absolutely   understand, especially in today's world where things have gone absolutely nutty.   That,   there's   so much heavy drama   and   and it's allowed.   So I do understand where the distaste for such things is.   Here's the problem.   When you're dating a woman   in a true   organized family structure,   there's   always a man that's the head of things.   And so if you're looking at a traditional type relationship,   if you're not,   it connects all that.  

But in a traditional type relationship,   obviously,   the her father is gonna be the man of her life   up until you replace that.   So there's a mechanism built into that   that   makes it so you need to prove yourself   as a man up against somebody else,   up against somebody who has already proven himself   as a man.   And when   she goes to make that move to put herself in your   care,   then   she's gonna have to look at you as   the best better replacement   for that. Or else you're not gonna have a very good relationship if that's   the traditional type relationship that you want. So this is really a catch 22 where   I just don't really necessarily agree with it. I mean, I I do agree to some extent this would require a lot of nuance and understanding that well, but I wouldn't date a girl that's   I would I I would go to her family and say,   listen.  

These are the rules. This is how you're gonna act when we're around or else we won't be around.   You're not gonna do this crazy ass shit that you guys are doing.   We're not our lives are not gonna include this crazed drama you people are doing. So,   you know, that would be definitely taking charge, definitely doing something.   I'm not saying that you should get involved in all the her her brother does this and blah blah, and you're out in the middle of the night doing crazy shit with her brother trying to get him out of trouble and shit like that.   I get that.  

But to say that you're not supposed to somehow become the head of her family,   I I don't now we're back to just we're just trying to get a piece of a piece of ass   as far as I can tell from this kind of thing.   If you're not gonna take responsibility as a man, how is she gonna look at you as as the man?  

[00:49:01] John Roeland:

Yeah. I would say this would be worded better.   Be aware of her social or family problems.   If you don't want to be responsible or involved in that, then she's probably not the right one for you.   You know, like, if, you know, some girl you're dating   has some drama with some ex boyfriend   or, you know,   you know, it's like,   do that's gonna show you a lot about   where she's at with her relationships,   and it's gonna give you a a measuring stick as to whether or not you would want to be involved   with someone like that. But   once you are with somebody,   their family problems, their social problems do become yours because you're gonna talk to your partner about what's going on, and you're gonna give them advice.  

And, you know, you can't ultimately be responsible   for it. But   as men, we are protectors, so there may be situations where you do have to step in   and say something to somebody.   But in general, you're gonna be a person that's encouraging your partner   in how to deal with it or it being a sounding board for them to talk about their problems. So   it does become part of your responsibility if you're in a meaningful relationship. And again,   if this person has a lot of social drama   or family issues that you don't think   are healthy, then it's more of a indicator that that's probably not the   right person for you.  



[00:50:40] allen marcus:

So we've read through up to number   6,   and we're reading a lot of nevers   and don'ts. These are almost the thou shall nots.   They're not quite the 10 commandments. They're not biblical. They're not   religious. They're just   rules that someone posted on a Facebook group and other people shared it, and they argued back and forth.   This don't   be   the   problem solver   also has a corollary of, if she's interested in you   because   you're a puzzle   that she can solve and she can be your therapist and she can save you.   It's like if you're the, adopted puppy that she's gonna take into her house, be aware of that too.   But I don't know if that's quite stated in this golden rule.  

The the bigger question at this point,   6 rules in,   what are you supposed   to do   and what are you offering   the woman?   If you're not supposed to open your checkbook   and pay for dinner,   what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to   once you've gone on a date with a woman, let her know that you have   things and skills and and opportunities to   entice her with, reasons for her to wanna stay with you. If you're stingy with your time, your attention, your talent, your treasures,   and she's not giving anything up either,   then it doesn't sound like a relationship   at all.  

So how can these be rules of a red pill if red pill is   strategies for   maintaining or for   navigating through   relationships?   This seems to be more black pill doomers   sort of saying, well,   men and women are gonna be at war. They've always been at war. There's no reason to even   communicate with them because you can't trust them. You can't spend money on them.   You can't live with them.   You can't do anything with them. This is just instilling more more fear to even   enter a dating pool, it seems.  

[00:52:58] John Roeland:

Yeah. I would agree. This seems more black pilled if you were gonna   call it that kind of a thing, very anti   dating.   It's it's   That's interesting. And also that was when Brian and I first looked at this,   that was, the first thing Brian said and also came to my mind that every one of these is a negative.   Right? That's that's real interesting. Why why except for the pay attention to her actions, not her words is the only one that does literally doesn't say don't or never.   Right? Every other one's either says never or don't. So that that's real interesting for a a list of rules to do,   which   rules are usually in this kind of scenario. It's things to do,   and   all these are nevers and don'ts.  



[00:53:46] allen marcus:

Which brings us right to number 7, which says to never   fight or argue with a woman. I don't know if this means verbally or physically,   but probably both.  

[00:54:01] John Roeland:

Well, I mean, obviously, it's at least verbally because argue, I don't think   includes physical usually.   I've chewed on this one a bit.   I I don't understand how you can have a relationship without having some kind of   altercations.   You know, you're gonna have fights.   It's,   I I try to keep my harshest.   You know, the one thing I would say is is that,   to keep in mind as a man is is that, women are like oil.   And, you know, the women are the oil in the situation.   And just like an oil, once you've scorched it, it doesn't come back.   You know, a woman's scorn doesn't doesn't return.  

And so she might stay with you, but it's never gonna be the same   relationship that it was. She's never gonna   you're never gonna attain the same,   virtue in her eyes. You've already you've already burned her.   So when you when you are having disagreements,   where when you're ready to   go scorched earth with a man,   don't ever do that with somebody you're dating unless you just want it to be fucking over because it's never gonna be good again even if you do fix it. Don't ever go scorched earth unless you're ready to just completely be done with the   so I I I definitely would say that,   but I don't know how you could have   a   complex relationship with somebody   and then start spending extended durations of time with them and not at some point   have a fight, have an argument,   something along that nature. Right? You'd have to be   a very passive person, I think, or extraordinarily   controlled.  



[00:56:05] John Roeland:

Yeah. This one seems to kinda fall back into the dating realm   and the hookup realm where,   you know, if you were to fight or argue with a woman, that would imply that you have some type of emotional   attachment to her or that you care.   And this is kind of telling you to just kind of, you know, have attitude of not letting anything bother you, not care about anything,   and,   not engaging with the woman if she's wanting to engage with you about some issue she has with you.   This reminds me of my dad when I was a kid.   I would just be amazed at how much because my mom was just a a ranter, you know. And   I won't say verbally abusive, but, you know, she was definitely, like, the dominant personality.  

And she would, you know, snap at my dad, and he was just always super calm about it.   Never really talked back.   And then   when me and my sister   got to the age where we started talking back, then I started noticing my dad talking back a little bit more.   But,   it took for me to get a a quite a bit older to   to be better about   not engaging in our arguments,   you know, or, like,   knowing when to knowing when to bow out. And like you said, Ben, like, going full scorched earth.   But,   yeah. This is,   this is not advice for people who are   actually trying to have a relationship,   because having a relationship with somebody   is going to involve having differences   and either working through those or finding that you can't work through them.  

It's a huge part of   any relationship, and especially for me as I've gotten older and the relationship I'm in now   that we've had plenty of arguments and disagreements, but, ultimately, they've made us stronger.  

[00:58:07] allen marcus:

Yeah. Like, what you're saying, maybe we would rephrase this to say,   fight for   the relationship   as opposed to fighting   against the relationship.   If you take the rule as never fight or argue with a woman   ever,   then are you in a place of avoidance and constantly   avoiding certain conversations?   That's gonna be real annoying to her when   you're not answering her text because you think it's gonna lead to an argument. You're not even   engaging with her. But then also,   where's your frame, man? Like, where's your frame, bro?   Why why why is there even an argument being brought up? Have you   shown a chink in your armor that she can just poke at? Is this a a a shit test? And that's another topic.  

But I think this is where this idea comes from is,   like,   no pushback.   Where are your boundaries?   These are things that are gonna occur in relationships. We know where are the boundaries. So if she's   combative   and you don't fight back,   has she just walked over you? Have you just proven that you're a weak man? Is that the reason for   the argument? If we're going back to this other rule here, pay attention to her actions, not her words,   is she using fighting words   but then   giving you hugs? Is is that not in alignment here? Is she confused?   Are you now confused?  

Well, someone has to   lead.   And if the argument is over the fact that   the man hasn't led,   then that itself might lead to a disagreement or an argument because you're expecting her to make a decision.   So in an egalitarian way where, you know, her vote is 50 50% and your vote is 50%, well, you're always gonna be in a tie. So someone has to be the tiebreaker.   And if the man is afraid of being the tiebreaker and making a decision,   then what again is the man offering   to the woman in the first place?  

[01:00:23] John Roeland:

Very simple list. And hail, William.   Very, very simple list. It seems like,   you know, the thing that you wanna hear things you hear bandied about is the red pill geysers in cells,   you know, sitting in their parents' basement.   And   you could see where,   maturity wise,   a lot of these just don't even make sense. And there's   some of this just doesn't seem like it should go together. Like, it it it really doesn't make sense.  

[01:01:05] allen marcus:

Number 8,   don't be manipulated   by   sex. They use a 3 in replace of the e because   sex is a scary thing.  

[01:01:19] John Roeland:

Solid rule to teach young men.   100%.   Solid rule.   That's,   you know,   just,   in general,   if you   in in this whole dating   scenario,   if you want to be   a highly desirable man   that is gonna have   the best chance to get a very good quality woman that you're gonna be happy with, the first thing to do is   make yourself   as a man.   So that includes not chasing after,   when when I was young the way we call it chasing after tail. The guys that chase the tail,   they didn't that's all that they did.   They they got enough money to go out and and and get laid and do things like that.   The dudes that were trying to make something of themselves   that eventually had a wife   and had a real good life, those guys weren't chasing it. Those they were chasing being a   impressive man.  

And when you become an impressive man,   impressive women are interested.   So  

[01:02:37] John Roeland:

it's a good one.   Yeah. I mean, I think,   again, it's interesting for this list because   part of this list seems like you're manipulating   for sex. So how   are you exactly being manipulated   by sex?   If you're following all these rules,   then hope then, you know, in theory, she's not manipulating   you for money.   If she if she was,   again, we're getting   borderline escort area,   which   I do think some women operate   that way. I've known of women   who operated that way. They wanted to take the trip somewhere or   but again, those men are,   I guess, these guys would call them simps   that they're gonna   they're gonna pay money and flash their money. They have the money, and that's gonna allow them to hook up with, you know, hot chicks, hot young chicks.  

So,   yeah, I just kind of wonder what they mean by being manipulated   by sex. What's what's she manipulating you into?   Yeah. This list is confusing.  

[01:03:58] allen marcus:

Number 9 says don't confuse   lust   for   love.  

[01:04:07] John Roeland:

I noticed you skipped, number 8 there, Marcus, but I don't know that you had anything to add to what was said. Is that was that the case?  

[01:04:16] allen marcus:

Yeah. Don't be manipulated by sex.   I don't think this list is going to lead to   sex. So by number 8, you're probably not gonna have to worry about the manipulation from sex.  

[01:04:33] John Roeland:

Alright.   Number 9, just a a good rule to teach young people. Again,   very similar to,   like, number 4.   You know, pay attention to actions. Now where's this is something I teach my daughter also?   Like, listen.   I understand that you're young   and, you know, for boys, you just got your testosterone.   And the world never talks about what a beast testosterone is. Just an   absolute monster beast   to the point where,   there's actual stories of,   people,   girls that are trying to make the transition into boys.   And,   they have rage issues and all kinds of things   that they didn't even understand and want to get actually physically violent. You know, testosterone is a hell of a drug.  

And I understand that that just just got unleashed in your body and you wanna get it all out through your penis. I get it.  

[01:05:33] John Roeland:

They  

[01:05:39] John Roeland:

just because   you have that   feeling,   that doesn't mean love. Just because she makes you   gives you them   butterflies in those gig you know? And but again, I would say the same thing to my daughter. You know? It it just because he makes you feel   oh, doesn't mean that you're that you're in love.   Just because today, things are awesome. This, I think, kinda ties into the don't move in with somebody,   or marry them for 1 to 2 years because   that first, especially when you're young, you got a lot of hormones to work out.   A lot.  

And   for that first 6 months, you could hell not even know each other's name. You're so busy just bumping uglies.   So a 100%   don't confuse lust for love. That's,   that's just a good one to pass down to young young people, period.  

[01:06:38] John Roeland:

Yeah. I think,   the general sentiment of it makes sense. I would say that   lust and love are kind of at 2 different ends of the relationship   spectrum. So if you're   involved in the hookup culture and you're hooking up with someone right away, you definitely shouldn't think that that's love.   Hopefully, these guys are aware enough to know that   that that in the beginning, it's it is lust. You don't know if you love somebody till you have spent some time with them and,   you know, shared shared your perspectives of the world and see if you're compatible with this person.   So,   yeah, I guess for a young person coming up.  

But, again, this list seems to be aimed at   the guy who's playing the field and and,   being a player.   So it should be pretty obvious that   lust is this thing you're doing here. And then if something builds from that with this woman,   which, again, the odds are   it probably won't,   if you jump into the the lust right away.   But,   yeah, love is is a different thing.  

[01:07:57] allen marcus:

So don't confuse lust for love   connects 3 to say don't let her looks turn you into a sucker.   So depending on your feelings of lust and infatuation,   if you're chasing after this person because you're so infatuated with her, that's that's gonna be confused with the testosterone,   all the other hormones.   The the feeling of just wanting to be so   attracted to another person itself   can be a drug. So when you do talk with her   and then explain to her the situation,   you're   you're you would be saying, you are just the most beautiful woman in the world. I am so,   lustful for you. I put you on this pedestal. You are a goddess.  

I think there's other sort   of red pill rules against putting the pussy on the pedestal,   combining with   lust and and love and the manipulation of sex.   It it seems to be repeating the same point, but said another more specific way.   Yeah. I would I would agree with the point,   certainly.   I'm not disagreeing with it.   And the confusion over   what you even want in a relationship at this point   is tied into all the other rules   of this situation where it's not clear   what this is leading towards. So if these are the 10 golden rules, meaning the only rules you follow   in your dating and mating, it it doesn't seem to be productive. It doesn't seem to lead anywhere. It doesn't seem to lead to sex or a relationship   or marriage   or a second date. This is just a way to get ghosted   and probably   good for the person ghosting you if this is the person's   credo and manifesto and the words they live by.  

So we'll move on to number 10 then.   Number 10 is   a little bit longer.   There's a lot of words here, and it's all in caps. So I might have to shout it to you. Never beg for female attention or validation. Never seek female companionship   for happiness. Never attach yourself to a person or a business or an organization. Always attach yourself to your mission and purpose in life.   Do I do a 10 hut or a soldier?   What's what what do the marines say? Semper Fi   or chest bump?   Hooah.   That's what it is. The hooah. Okay.   Again,  

[01:10:35] John Roeland:

just good rule of life. It's it's it's a very confused list.   Good rule of life though.   Definitely don't   beg for anyone's attention or validation.   And it's really amazing because   if you chase after it, you'll never get it. And as soon as you stop chasing after it's when you get it.   And that the and and you actually go to try to make yourself a more impressive person.   When again, getting back to if you want to be   want the high quality woman,   the high value woman,   which I don't put the the because I also noticed that in all those lists,   attractiveness is the very first thing and that would be my very last.  

I absolutely,   am, about the, you know, just the basic,   the the loving mother goddess body   as opposed to the young woman body. I understand that   visually,   the young woman body is the attractive one, and it's not the one I would seek, not the one I go to. I mean, I'm an older person that's, you know, had children,   but the loving mother, somebody that's gonna take care and   nurture and understand.   That's the person I'm interested in spending my time with.   So   the the   don't,   seek after, that's when you will start getting because you are   self validating.  

You're you're becoming something you're impressed with. And that's when other people, they're like, well, why are you so impressed with yourself? What you got going on over here? Maybe I want a piece of that. That's when that that's when they start coming poking.   So never seek   any companionship or happiness. Again,   self validation,   self this is this is just good stuff. I'm not sure how this really necessarily is just like a dating thing. I don't see how this fits in with trying to get   just get laid or to try and develop relationships. It doesn't.   Never attach yourself to a person or business or organization.  

Absolutely   agree.   Until it comes time to have a wife.   Because   you should not like Christie,   just like with her inner social circles and even her family.   Everybody   is aware that there's only certain things you can do before you trigger I'm coming.   And   it's not gonna be good when I get there. And everybody knows   who she's with.   There is definitely an attachment. But for the most part, your purpose in in life, the thing that you wanna be, your self validation, that is   the thing, and the rest of that becomes derivative of it. So I mean, this almost seems like like   like they're like this weird mix of hookup   or relationship   or or   whatever they got going on with, like, something off of a gym wall that's very inspiring at the end. I don't   it's weird.  



[01:13:48] John Roeland:

This reminds me of what we used to call the no game game,   which is   you don't you're not trying to have game, and by not trying, then   you do have game.   It's kinda.   Actually, there's a movie called the Dow of Steve,   which is all about this. It's this heavyset   guy, works works in childcare. It's not based on me.   But, like, it's basically like the DAO of Steve. Like, all Steves have this this sense about them, and the opposite of a Steve is a Stew.   And,   yeah. And he just he just does you know, acts like he doesn't care, and so then he hooks up with all these different women. And,   anyway. But   I find it interesting that they and I'll say the last line, yes.  

Always attach yourself   to   improving yourself,   self improvement,   and then that will lead to your mission and purpose in life.   The   the   person or business or organization part, it's a little confusing to me because what if you start a business or you start an organization?   So maybe they are differing there. Like, don't attach yourself to someone else's   movement or organization.   But   I think that   that doesn't isn't very clear how that relates   to relationships.   But,   yeah. So I just think that, yeah, it's   you,   again, treat everybody   with the same level of respect,   same manners, have a standard way that you approach people,   be yourself,   improve yourself,   and, yeah, that's I mean, ultimately, I think that's what this is saying. So I won't say I don't agree with it. I I'm just not clear on   not attaching yourself to a business or an organization.  

I mean, maybe they're just pushing you to be an entrepreneur   and do your own thing, which I think that would be a positive message as well.  

[01:15:57] allen marcus:

Yeah. This number 10 of the 10 golden rules of the red pill viral Facebook post,   they're fitting 4 in here, so you kind of have to address them 1 at a time.   The never join a organization.   Well, if you're telling someone to never volunteer,   then you'll never have that opportunity   to meet like minded people who are positively doing something in the community. That could be a very Again,   what   do   you   do,   and,   Again, what   do you do, and   do you have any maxims to follow? Is there any   instructive   behavior to do? This is very destructive   and very   in a self enclosing   and restrictive   sort of rule set   to make you fear   going out into the world at all   if   the assumption is   that every female with companionship   and happiness issues   is going to just be a complete, manipulation with her sex and her feminine wiles, and then you're gonna be introduced to her economic problems, her credit card debt, her notch on her bedpost, and all these things.  

If this is   I think maybe I figured it out.   This itself is the shit test to other men to say, stay out of the dating pool so that leaves more women to us at this point. Is that sort of the thinking here?  

[01:17:37] John Roeland:

Yeah. I'm not,   you know, again, this is a boiled down   thing that I'm sure there's supposed to be more nuance.   Unfortunately,   I'm not real.   I'm a little scared of the nuance.   We   Mark Allen Marcus there did receive a book from one of these   more well known figures   in this community that,   his posts were the ones that were getting picked up and   reposted.   And, he's decided   to boil his wisdoms down and write a book.   And I   in a spider   meeting,   Jim's received the book,   well well made book. So this guy ain't fucking around. I mean, it's high quality.   The things that he was saying in there,   pretty hard to stomach,   pretty hard to listen to.  

Had a whole chapter about,   taking   advantage of   the Ukrainian   refugee.   You know, basically,   war war you you could   you could   boil that down to just war refugee women that are extraordinarily needy and using them for, gratuitous   sex   without having to give up much.   As I,   woof,   That's,   you're you're pandering to some bad people. Like, that's some not   at all manly behavior.   I I and I can understand that,   the community from the   other side, the way they paint the community is they call them incels and voluntarily   celibate,   guys that just live in their parents' basement   and, can't get their can't get their peepees touched because they're just horrible people.  

And and   this does not does nothing to dissuade that. That book does. Like,   oh, oh, okay. I see.   So I I don't even   yikes.   This is, again, this is part of was part of the impetus to starting the show is,   young men   need to understand that there is a much you know, I don't agree with the the feminist   vibe today. I don't agree with the the way things are being ran today.   Going into that is absolutely not the answer. Treating women like trash   and,   becoming,   you know, a player or whatever,   and having women   doing all the things that make you less of a man does not penalize them.   I tell you that. This is no different than,   taking and cutting off your own hand to to spite your enemy. Like,   I taught you a lesson.  

Like, don't don't become less of a man. That that's just ridiculous.  

[01:20:48] John Roeland:

Yeah. Ben, you made a comment earlier,   and my wife was mentioning this as I was kind of going over some of the ideas in the philosophy.   But she was saying if this is a reaction to   feminism or this idea that there's this,   you know,   women wanting to take over the world,   that it's a total swing back of the pendulum   to the opposite extreme,   in some cases where, you know, the men are now   going back to, you know, trying to say that they're so much more dominant   and they don't need women. And so it's kind of like they've become what they hate, which tends to happen a lot in these dialectics.   So just wanted to make that comment.  



[01:21:37] allen marcus:

Yeah. I agree with those comments. If the manosphere   is a place   that, however, it's encountered   seems to lead towards kind of a black pill humor   and shock value   and to kind   of, in a way, troll what they would consider to be weak blue pilled men   to sort of say, we are so red pill. We've moved to the black pill and and and transcended   all   all needs for relationship and women and just any traditional thing that man has ever needed to sort of say we are so far above that that we can mock it and criticize it endlessly,   then that just turns into a male circle jerk, which   are actual subreddits where people   go and they'll discuss these issues.  

But from such,   I wouldn't say hateful way, but really from a, I don't care about anything sort of nihilistic way where everything   is fodder for humor and antagonization   and not taking anything seriously.   So to step into the manosphere and see that's the level of maturity,   those are the leaders of the pack, the the heads of the class,   the the graduating class   that, you know, the freshmen are looking up to to get up to speed,   and then they encounter all kinds of   black pill humor   and nihilism,   then they go and they   misrepresent   it in a way that they haven't fully understood,   which then paints it as a picture of   toxicity. It's difficult to argue to say that   these male spaces   are not toxic or   are not growing   fruit that any woman would ever wanna even taste.  

I think that's where   the the pushback   from   sane, rational,   intelligent   people who   have been in successful marriages   needs to come from.   A lot of the lonely men epidemics,   the involuntary celibates,   the needs, the not in   employment, education, or training.   There there are so many banners and umbrellas and filters   and pipelines to lead men to online communities   that try and keep them   contained there   without ever growing   or solving their problems.   So to then sell solutions   in the terms of mentorship groups or coaching   or books,   that's where a lot of pushback comes from all sides to say, we see this as a grip. And then they'll point to Andrew Tate specifically and say, see,   he's the guy. He's the grifter.  

He's the guy that's painting a broad stroke in terms of what a male red pill influencer looks like. So then the target's on his back.   But is he even genuine?   Is he just to control the opposition?   So then the other questions begin to raise. Well, what is the purpose of the propaganda   and banning certain forums, promoting others? This gets into, like, conspiracy theory,   and that might lead us to another article where a a woman   discovered the red pill and was shocked by what she found.  

[01:25:14] John Roeland:

Yeah. Go ahead and let's hit hit us with that.   You're you're on mute.  

[01:25:40] allen marcus:

Yes.  

[01:25:43] John Roeland:

There you go, guys. Here it is.  

[01:25:49] allen marcus:

So this article,   kind of a clickbait title of the 7 most shocking beliefs of the red pill community,   from a woman who   did her research, read about it, and summarized it into 7 bullet points,   but doesn't seem to really argue it.   The first one reads a female   supremacy movement exists.   Her immediate response is   an emoji of Chris Rock kinda doing the what face.  

[01:26:25] John Roeland:

Interesting.  

[01:26:27] John Roeland:

I would absolutely agree.   Female supreme I believe we live in a feminine society, at least the western   world. We've lived in a feminist   society for a very long time.   And   I   I I   watching a lot of these debates and,   you know, doing some research and whatnot,   I've noticed a lot of people are just not intellectually evolved enough to even be in the debate in the debate world.   And one of the things you have to do is is separate the the   sex of the person from, you know, they're like, oh, it's a patriarch. You look, a man's in charge. A man can be in charge and it still be feminine. A woman can be charged and it still be in charge and it still be masculine.   I mean,   through most of most of our adult lives,   England,   the queen was the monarch. There wasn't a monarch here.  

There's all kinds of women in government.   It's it's the flavor of society, and we live in a highly feminine society.   And as far as dating goes,   where this gets in is   the understanding and and part of these things I agree with.   You know? Well,   pre no fault divorce.   I agree with quite a few of these things.   But I   as far as dating goes,   women absolutely have all the control. 100%.   If she   she gets to choose,   the she's the gatekeeper of the sex. If she changes her mind later, that can cause issues. She can go back and just retroactively   through guilt say that she doesn't want it, and now the guy's in trouble.  

If children are produced   like the state where I'm from,   I was a single dad to my to my youngest 2 kids,   and   horrible choices on my part. But,   right out right out the gate,   the state actually gave custody to her,   and she didn't exercise it.   So for 2 years,   I raised the kids, and then she shows up one day and decides she's gonna be mom for this week, you know, after a couple years, and raises a fit. And she's able to just take the kids and the cops came and helped her take them because in the state law, if you're unmarried, the woman automatically has custody.   And this is, this is over and over. If,   she decides to leave you, she can take all your stuff.  

She's gonna control whether you see the kid or not.   Child support payments and your child visitation are 2 entirely separate issues.   So there's all kinds of different gatekeeper   situations. We are absolutely in a in a female supremacy,   era.   And the feminists are absolutely   female supremacists.   A 100%   to try and state it any other way   gets into the liberal   changing definitions   of words.   So that way, they can't,   it it it suits their needs   at that point. And now we're just having, an extraordinarily   dishonest conversation because   they're they're purposely using a   a a twisted definition.  

So this this a 100%,   I mean,   I think the red pill is a shitty answer to this, but this is the the reason for the red pill.   Like, I I this is exactly the reaction that those dumb women like that would would put to.   Like, you can you can bet this person that wrote the article is horrible.  

[01:30:24] John Roeland:

I would say that,   yes, there is a female supremacy   movement,   but it exists   under the umbrella   of   a different type of supremacy movement. And the female   aspect of it is a psyop,   which,   obviously,   you know, what people believe in tends to become the reality,   at least from what we experienced. So there are women who attach to this idea   of,   needing to be able to be firemen   and needing to be able to do what men do and that that somehow is based on equal   rights. However,   now that has shifted,   and now we've got   men   going in and saying, I get to go in because I identify as a woman, and I get to be,   in your in your movement. So   to me,   the   again, going all the way with the red pill would lead you deeper   than the female   male dialectic.  

It's a huge part of the overall plan,   but the, you know, the people running the show aren't trying to,   you know, put a woman at the top. Right? I mean, that's not their ultimate goal. They'll use women and they'll use this movement   to achieve their ends,   but there's a deeper   a deeper psyop at play that I think the red pill movement,   doesn't go far enough to to realize.  

[01:32:04] allen marcus:

This list   kind of points towards   where   culture is realizing that men have organized and made lists and codified   what they call red pill ideas.   So then she's reacting to that with shock   and disbelief to say, I can't believe   this information is being spread around   as she seems to profit from spreading the information   without,   denying it or   rebutting it   or even making a point other than, look, here's what I found.   Let's be shocked together.  

[01:32:48] John Roeland:

And to be clear, I'm, I I agree with John. I just wasn't gonna bring that into the dating context.   The,   that this is all   derivative of a different control mechanism.   We actually have a a a fairly long   research for the last couple years that, we've been doing on that,   tying it back to the Theosophical   Society   and then even further,   100%.   So I agree with what John's saying there completely.   That's derivative.  

[01:33:25] allen marcus:

Think the Occult roots of feminism is a book that this author might need to read first and then determine if she wants to rewrite some of our articles.   Can move to point number 2. Women are illogical and manipulative.  

[01:33:43] John Roeland:

I mean,   you know, it's a little on the nose with it, but, yeah, that's, you know, that's how that's   to say that   and not,   like, she's saying it   She knows that that's true. But to say it to like, in such a derogatory way Say the quiet part out loud. So so   when when   in the number one, at the end of it, there was a thing where it said soft power.   So there's gotta be an understanding that women can't rely on actual force.   So manipulation   is debt is always been their their version of force.   You can't say   you don't get to have any kind of power.   Like, when you can't,   in a situation,   use the brute power,   then manipulation is gonna become your power. You you can't leave them powerless. So,   yes, they are manipulative,   but that's just the nature of it because they don't have the the musculature   to be the brute force.  

And then illogical,   it depends on on the women and it depends on the time.   Men tend to be more logic thinking. Women tend to be more feeling thinking. It's it's a fact.   That doesn't mean that the one is evil,   but   for those reasons,   I don't think women should typically be in charge. There are   exceptions,   but typically because women are typically logical and they do tend to rely on feelings more.   But I I I don't know why she's saying this, like, it's untrue or, like, it's offensive.   I guess it's just weird.  

[01:35:40] allen marcus:

Right.   So   the two points   she's,   brought to light   as a revelation of the shocking beliefs of a hidden underground,   you know, red pill community, some on some dark web somewhere.   You know, she's   she's sharing reactions of women in general   at their collective worst.   So she's speaking in terms of   all women   and then saying at their worst,   this is what the red pill community believes,   but doesn't   disprove it   or show herself at her best. So it's a clickbait.   We're shocked.   Can't believe anybody believes this thing.   But then through her   text, you explain her point,   she's   not arguing against herself. She's   getting into maybe solipsism here.  

But, you know, answering with emojis is a very powerful   form of soft power.   Maybe?   I can't believe I just said that. I have to end every statement with a question mark and an uptick.   Not all women are like that.  

[01:36:54] John Roeland:

Yeah. I mean,   again,   like you said, Alan, she's pointing toward   the worst possible belief. It's almost like   she's   playing into   the dialectic,   you know, like, can you believe men think women are illogical and manipulative   when   in reality,   that's just, you know, what we all we all know to a certain extent.   Men are more logical,   think more linearly,   a little bit more   organized in their thinking.   And, you know, women do, like you said, Ben, they tend to get emotional   and,   get caught up in that emotion and maybe allow it to   not not allow them to,   make a firm decision. Sometimes they need to, you know, be shown like, hey, what about this, this, and this?  

And that's how men and women ultimately   support each other.   Again, there's a balance there. So,   manipulative.   I mean, anybody can be manipulative,   but be wary of that in general. I guess yeah. I guess we're talking about it from her perspective. So I've got I'm kinda thrown off with, like, the last list in this one, but,   yeah,   I'll I'll I'll move on from there.  

[01:38:17] John Roeland:

Well, I mean, manipulative. Like, let's say a woman's got her a a blown out tire,   and she can't change it. She doesn't even have the physical strength to to break this rusty ass lug nut.   She has to get somebody else to do it. This is gonna require manipulation.   Whether that's a very small manipulation or it's gonna require larger manipulation,   What we're talking about is that that's almost like again, it's like saying that they can't have power.   And and, absolutely, women are the more manipulative because   women tend to when you when you look at the way the   world works, women tend to be more of the micromanage. They're gonna have somebody else do something and get them to do the way they want it. They're gonna try and promote their idea to get other people to do it because they don't usually have as much I   was gonna say,  

[01:39:20] John Roeland:

I was gonna say,   I work in childcare and   was around these kindergartners today. And and you can see in I mean, not all of the girls, but there's a little group of girls, and they just   constantly stir up stuff.   Everything is much more   about verb words   and,   getting someone to do what you want and   play with me and not her.   The boys don't   tend to do that as much. They're more e they're more it's easier for them to just follow a leader and follow the play,   without having to be in control.   I mean, that's just a   a, anecdotal   observation, but that's pretty common if you look at, like, 5 year old kids.  



[01:40:13] allen marcus:

This whole shocking belief of the red pill community,   Seven items really pack a punch, and each item could be a separate episode.   Let's see what number 3 brings. Oh, women are hypergamous.  

[01:40:31] John Roeland:

Absolutely. Women are hypergamous.   But I'm gonna, again,   put this into,   are you wanting women to compete with us in the because, I mean, I'm   maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm making an missus   you know,   misstep in assuming that they want the traditional more traditional women because that's what I've seen them mostly asking for.   And if you're asking for a more traditional woman,   then in a man's marketplace,   you   gain more value and more worth   through placing yourself,   like you wanna become a manager at work. You obviously have more value in work   than the the janitor   or the the tire guy if you're a mechanic or whatever.  

Well,   if a woman's   value in that system   is based off of her partner,   so she doesn't   actually get to go out and develop her own worth, well, then how the fuck is she supposed to not be hypergamous?   Like, that's like saying you have no no drive to become something more or become something   impressive, become a leader in the community and things like that. Now when the hypergamy   reaches a a a level where they're willing to leave   a good relationship in order   to go, you know, to where it's just complete gold digging where, like, you get, like, the   old man with the,   you know, 18 year old girl and things like that   where that that level of hypergamy,   then it gets wonky. But that's anything. You can't get you can't take anything to an extreme and expect it to work well.  

But to say that this doesn't exist is just idiocy.   But then to say that   it shouldn't exist also   is just foolishness in my opinion.  

[01:42:36] allen marcus:

She's just shocked that men are even talking about this aspect of, I guess, the sisterhood of the the hidden pants or what was it called?   There's a   there's a set of admission that there's a group of women who are   a corollary or equal and opposite to red pill.   I don't know what that is. If there is one thing, this idea of hypergamy   where you kinda climb this marriage ladder so that you it's assuming that women start out poor and impoverished and the lowest cast in society.   And that by meeting men and marrying up and, you know, upgrading herself to get better clothes, to attract better men, at some point says that, well, she's gonna she's gonna leave you.   It's this is kind of acknowledging that,   not denying it ever happens.  

But then she's surprised   that   conservative upbringing and strong male figures, so having a father and and brothers in the family that she admires   is something that men should look for. She was shocked that   men would look for women who have this sort of conservative   family values quality in them.   I don't know how that applies to hypergamy,   but she's she's mentioning that.  

[01:43:54] John Roeland:

My my mom always says that her mom, my grandmother used to say, you can marry you could love a rich man just as much as a poor man.   However,   most of the women in my family,   dated   people from   pretty much where they were class wise.   My grandmother   was one of the Rosie the Riveters, so she worked. She was a working woman, and all of her daughters were working women. So,   I think,   interestingly,   does hypergamy   just apply to   financial   status, or does it also apply to they're looking for the top   20%   in physicality and looks?  

[01:44:42] allen marcus:

Every aspect of of Yeah. All in.  

[01:44:45] John Roeland:

Okay. Because I I definitely could see that,   especially,   you know, when you're younger,   that it didn't matter if a guy was doing anything with his life as long as he was good looking and,   you know, kinda had that confidence and that swagger   then,   that he had more women interested in him. So,   but yeah. I mean I mean,   is it is it so surprising that someone would   be looking to marry into a family that is, you know, doing as well or better than them. I mean, that's pretty much just the way society is set up.   But I don't know that women are   necessarily really out there seeking that.  

But   I'm not one of those men, so maybe I wouldn't know.  

[01:45:37] John Roeland:

Yeah. I I think it's not as much of a consideration   anymore. You know, we've had too many, you know, over halfway there. Oh, living out of prairie or shit like that where it's   at at at one point in time, there was recognition   that   it   also   the change in that is our welfare system. So our welfare system has made it so there's never a dire consequence.   And given the the lack of a dire consequence with it,   I I think that's really taken away the bite of this, where at one point in time, I think this was a heavy consideration.   Why would a woman who   is gonna have a hard time   supporting herself and and bringing in an income, especially if she's had children   in a time when there wasn't daycare and things like that.  

Why would she attach herself to a guy that very potentially could leave her high and dry as far as food,   shelter,   things like that? That wouldn't even make sense. So at some point in time, that being real flighty and running off just because somebody catches your fancy and you wanna hump them for 5 minutes,   like, I think that that probably was,   you know, a more emphasis of not doing that   was definitely put on at some point in time. But I think,   again, our our welfare state that we have   that does its very best to make sure there's no consequences   for bad choices   has really taken that away a lot. And I think that today, maybe   there's less consideration.  

But,   also, that's assuming that the woman has no   ambition.   And so then   finding a dude with no ambitions, also not a problem.   They are on the same level where hypergamy kind of   it has baked into it in ambition, so she's gonna need an ambitious guy.  

[01:47:42] allen marcus:

So that's kind of the red pill answer to women's hypergamy and wanting to marry up and marry a   a better man. If every day she wakes up next to a man who's   visibly improved from the day before,   then she's already kind of marrying up, and she's marrying a new man each day if the man is constantly improving.   So she's probably saying that   because men   seem to settle in their own   situation,   becoming couch potatoes,   retired to their man cave, never improve,   then   she's   looking for the guy who's going to get her to the next stage of life. So it might be an unevenly yoked sort of situation. We're talking about dowries in chat. That's an interesting thing. You kept saying dower dire dire and I was like diary, dowery,   dire consequences.  



[01:48:33] John Roeland:

That's what I'm talking about. This was always kind of a thing.   Yeah. You know? This was,   baked into the I into the way people thought when they were gonna marry. So this this isn't a just today thing.  

[01:48:48] John Roeland:

Yeah. And I would think it would be encouraged   even more by the girl's parents   for encouraging her to   find someone that can take care of her financially.   And,   so, yeah, I agree with you, Ben. It's it's kinda built in.  

[01:49:08] John Roeland:

Well and the fact is is   when you're young,   you don't make good choices. And when, again, full of hormones   and   the things that are gonna become important to you later in life,   they don't they they   don't settle in and tell later in life for some reason.   You know? I again, I've got 3 daughters. Each of them are, adults.   And you betcha. When they like, my oldest daughter,   she's married, has a kid,   you know, cup 2 kids. You know? She's a manager at the bank, has a nice little house, all that. When she was 15, she was dead set   for fucking this gothic boy, and she was gonna kill herself, but he was gonna leave him because, you know, he was just so   You   know?  

If   they're gonna   make adult decisions at that point in time where it's gonna be life for the rest of their life,   the parents really should be pushing and helping instead of just letting them do what makes them happy. Because, obviously, that happiness is only gonna last a very short time. You know? Oh, Billy was so great for 3 days.  

[01:50:24] allen marcus:

We're not seeing a whole lot of talk about what role parents are gonna   play in the stating and mating game. A lot of the red pill philosophy and the reaction to it, it seems   to place the individual as,   separate atoms apart from everything else,   not understanding that there are social systems in place   and all your actions have reactions and everything is connected to to everything else. The the spiritual aspect has not really been addressed at all in any of these points that   either people have brought up tonight.  

[01:51:00] John Roeland:

Yeah. Good point, Marcus. Yeah. That's the spiritual spirituality is completely lacking   from this, and it it just points to a very mechanistic world view, and that these guys took data and,   kind of looking, you know, looking at it rationally,   but, you know, that's not how the world works. If you look at something completely intellectually,   you're missing a huge aspect of what's going on. So  

[01:51:30] allen marcus:

So then number 4 reads that women   need men more than men need women, and this woman has got her champagne, and she is   laughing and laughing and laughing at the statement.  

[01:51:44] John Roeland:

Yeah.   The,   this is a a real dumb girl thing   that,   is in today's world where these   women have lived inside of a world that men made.   And then and because   they don't ever look at the into the dirty undercurrents to see what's making that work,   they don't,   they think that they can survive without men.   And the flip side,   obviously,   men can't procreate without women. So it's a real interdependent   system,   but absolutely, like, these women are are are just absolutely foolish. They don't stop think that   literally   99.9999   to the point where it only because it's a percentage does it not say 100   percent of men are are linemen   are that run your electrical and bring the power to you are men.  

The, you know,   the people doing the super heavy   dirty jobs, carrying carrying, you know,   steel beams and riveting them together and doing all those   super horrible dirty things, you know, because this woman's rich   and and doesn't even look at those type of people   and doesn't realize they exist. She she can, in her brain, somehow think that   that   she doesn't need them because she doesn't acknowledge them. It just tells you how how worthless   she is as a as a human being.   We're very codependent   on each other.   But absolutely,   the the world does not function without men.  

Women aren't out throwing chain on an oil rig. Women aren't,   running your electrical. Women aren't doing any of those things nor should they.   They don't have the physicality for it. They aren't stupid enough to do it. Like, men have this stupidity when it comes to physical danger. Like, we think it's great. Like, oh, fuck. Yeah. Let me go do that thing where I'm gonna almost die.   Like, men are all about that. Women, they're they're they're not dumb like that.  

[01:53:59] allen marcus:

She says that women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment.   Point number 5 seems to suggest that women's gates get rusty   over time,   saying that women are depreciating   assets.  

[01:54:19] John Roeland:

Again, I guess,   this is what she is claiming   that the red pill community   is saying. She's trying to,   make the red pill community look as terrible as possible and not get into any of the,   you know, positive things that they may be helping men with.   This is just making it seem like the red pill community just they all hate women,   and they don't need women. And   it's, you know, kind of more focused   on MGTOW.   But, yeah, I mean, I didn't hear that in the last list we read.  

[01:55:02] John Roeland:

I mean, MGTOW is not red pill, is it? Because MGTOW, aren't they supposed to just not isn't that more black pill where you just don't   talk to women at all? Well, I would think that  

[01:55:14] John Roeland:

the idea that men don't need women is   a big part of MGTOW.   But, yeah, I I did hear that it was considered part of the red pill community where it's, you know, men kind of saying that they don't need women as much as they think, and they need to maintain that attitude.   And then that would be separate from incel. Again, I don't really understand all all of this completely. But   to me, this article, what this lady is doing is just focusing on the most negative aspects of it to make them look like   complete degenerate, which I'm not saying they don't, but   I haven't heard any of them say that women are depreciating assets in any of the of the content that I looked at. So  

[01:55:58] allen marcus:

There is the aspect of sexual market value that we   briefly mentioned in past episodes.   The idea that   men   age, like, I think wine, they would say, and then women just age like milk and go sour.   They they have an expiration date, this type of thing. It's probably dishonest to not address the issue of the biological imperative and the biological clock and the eggs and the, you know, have children while you're young and able and don't wait till you're on your dying death bed. Just say, you know, I can't die until I have a child.   That's kinda where they get into with this depreciating asset thing,   presumably,   but I don't think this female author from a feminist perspective   is addressing   the red pill topics in good faith. She seems to be mocking them and thinking that this is somehow   self evident humor and that anyone could just read   the point in bold, women are capuchin assets, and then just laugh laugh it off and not address it directly?  



[01:57:04] John Roeland:

I noticed that the last on the last one, there's a quote, but it doesn't say who wrote the quote.   Sure.   Yeah.   I mean, again, that,   yeah. I mean, it is it is like you said, it is an interesting thing to talk about important thing to talk about that women do have   a clock in terms   of how long they can have children and that that clock is   gonna run shorter than a man's.   But,   I don't know how that applies to what the red pill community is doing.  

[01:57:39] John Roeland:

Oh, in the in the just specifically dating terms, they're absolutely a depreciating   asset. I mean,   they have   their bodies a depreciating   asset. So   if you're looking at it in dating terms,   as a young person who's getting ready to start a family,   she's more fertile. She's more able to have children, things like that.   All these things that a young man are important to a young man.   Now if now when you're single,   that's the only time that your age is a depreciation   depreciating   asset though. In on the other side of it,   and this is where this lady is just bitter and old and has 12 cats and nobody's gonna ever love her,   and she's real sad about it.  

The when you're in a marriage,   on the flip side,   you're   a rising asset.   I would never trade this Christie for 20 year old Christie.   Because this Christie is very enjoyable to be around.   She is   she thinks she's intelligent.   She knows what she wants in the world. She's a realized woman.   And that in a marriage,   as you become older and you choose to be and you want to spend your time with the loving mother   and not with,   running around,   She's absolutely   gained,   value.   But in a single situation,   that's where, yeah, there's just no getting around it that   unless what what exactly are you bringing to it then?  

Because   if it's   outside of you're gonna be the provider,   you what? Are you giving your your sex and which, again,   depreciates with age   and and and what? Like   so that there's just no recognition in the of,   their actual value in the difference between   dating and in a relationship people.  

[01:59:54] allen marcus:

She's gonna mention more numbers   and   the quantification   that the red pill seems to put on everything to have   sort of spreadsheets of what the best pickup lines were, what the best   outcomes were. They're sort of doing running statistics.   There's this,   idea that somehow   20%   of the top men   are having sex with 80%   of all women.   And this is shocking.  

[02:00:30] John Roeland:

I would say up to   maybe early twenties, mid twenties, that's probably holds true.   At some point in time,   the   that kinda settles down and people wanna have partner, and I would say that balances out. Obviously,   20% of men   have adult men, what   most people are getting married at some point in time. So, obviously,   most dudes don't die a virgin.  

[02:01:05] allen marcus:

I think this is topic of the alpha male. So they're addressing this idea that there's a part of the population which is considered the alpha male, and those alpha males are the top male, and they just get sex so easily with 80% of the women   that everybody else who isn't included in that is somehow left out,  

[02:01:25] John Roeland:

and they're frustrated about that. So they talk about it a lot. So you're talking about the free sex. We're not talking about sex eventually and having a partner. We're just talking about free sex. Hookup culture, that sort of thing. The 80 20 rule kind of applies to I can agree with this and,   and the hookup culture that   probably 20% of men get   the vast vast majority of the hookups. I I could agree with that.  

[02:01:52] John Roeland:

Yeah. I would agree that that's probably true.   I read I mean, the stuff I was looking at earlier was more thinking that they were talking about in terms of the scale of   where you land in terms of   your looks.   But,   yeah, I mean, in the in the hookup world, the guys that are good looking, the Chads,   they're gonna   they're gonna have more success.  

[02:02:24] allen marcus:

I don't know if it's 20, 80. That seems like a big number. They kinda make that number up, and then they use that in their sales technique to say, well, you know,   as a top   20% of men, I can offer classes to the rest of the 80%   and increase your odds of sex being in your favor. So   listen to me, this type of thing. The 80 20 rule,   again, I don't know where that number comes from. It's just something that keeps showing up, and people keep repeating it as if it's true. It doesn't make it true.   Don't think so.  

[02:03:00] John Roeland:

I mean, at the end of the night when you're at the bar, which is what we're talking about with hookup culture, people going out and getting drunk and just pushing their   sexual organs against each other.   At the end of the night, yeah, the ones you wanted to go home with the most might have went home with somebody else. You're still going home with somebody.   Like, well, not all dudes. All chicks so can.  

[02:03:26] allen marcus:

She seems to connect this alpha male thing with white male privilege. So point number 7,   she's   she's saying that   red pill men have the belief that white men   are not   privilege,   spelling privilege incorrectly.  

[02:03:49] John Roeland:

Well, it also says occur, whatever occur means.   Occur?  

[02:03:56] John Roeland:

That's what Cardi b says. Occur?  

[02:04:00] allen marcus:

That's that's something that would be on the leak. Yeah. That's Cardi b.  

[02:04:04] John Roeland:

She yeah. She's a rapper. She doesn't she doesn't talk very well.   O'Kuhr?  

[02:04:10] John Roeland:

I I'm not a 100% sure how this exactly ties to the other thing  

[02:04:15] allen marcus:

a 100%. I mean, the the point to Andrew Tate and say, he's the top red pill guy. He's a   white guy. From what? Teaches men that   that white men are actually the opposite of privilege,   that somehow white men are   suppressed because of, diversity and inclusion hiring practices. To say that now white men are actually   oppressed. A lot of red pill guys will say, you know, I'm a white guy. I'm oppressed. Here's how I was oppressed. She's reacting to that to say, get a load of this.   These white guys   don't think they have any privilege.   And then the reaction is, okay. Alright.  



[02:04:56] John Roeland:

Well, the assumption is too is that red pillars   red pillars are all white guys. Right?   So there's that assumption baked in there as well.   I would say that this just shows you again that this all ties into   a bigger,   a bigger dialectic that's going on where they're, you know, pitting people against each other, men against women,   ethnicities against each other,   classes against each other,   take your pick. So,   not surprised that she tied it in.   Obviously,   a liberal   leaning perspective.   And, Yeah. You gotta always play that race card.  

[02:05:43] John Roeland:

I don't know if I'd call that dude white.   I don't even know what he is.  

[02:05:48] John Roeland:

He he's mixed. He's definitely mixed, but they but a lot of people would call him white.  

[02:05:54] allen marcus:

And they would say he's privileged, and then   the red pill men who would gather to say, you know,   just because I'm a white guy doesn't mean I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth, doesn't mean I have a trust fund or a family wealth   or,   being at a family business, meaning this sort of nepotism.   To say that   white men   have different challenges in their life   is a more nuanced statement.   But for   this idea to be reduced   to the shock   of finding out   that a community   of men   who are   probably assumed to be white, that's a huge assumption,   and for this feminist   to make it a big point in her clickbait, 7 most shocking beliefs of the red pill community as her big zinger at the end to say like, hey, girls.  

These guys think   they're privileged or not. Get a load of that.   Okay.   Right.  

[02:07:00] John Roeland:

I mean, white privilege period is just a dumb fucking,   dumb fucking thing.   I mean, absolutely, you get advantages depending on what community you're in. And if you're black, you get advantages depending on what community and who you're dealing with. And if you're Indian,   if you're Chinese,   you know, if, it it wait. I dated a Russian chick. If she went into the Russian grocery store, she paid a different price than I would have. Like a 100%. It's just how it works. If people, when dealing inside their own communities, usually get treated a little different than people from outside their communities, usually get   treated a little different than people from outside their communities.  

And   that's just the world. Like, there's not any specific   I get to walk into anywhere, and I'm a white guy, and I don't,   I suddenly   have a different set of rules or laws that apply to me.  

[02:07:59] allen marcus:

She's sort of,   warning women that red pill is going to be the pipeline of the gateway to lead them to   radical   right wing isms   or white pride or white nationalism or maybe Christian nationalism or something. So she's sort of   having these baked in assumptions.   And on top of that,   she's bringing up the race card. So she's bringing up the race card. Usually in the hookup culture these days?  

[02:08:28] John Roeland:

Because that's where I'm having an issue. Because during this entire red pill thing,   most of the things that they were trying to promote wouldn't draw a traditional type wife in any way.   So, obviously, these people aren't holding Christian values or anything. They aren't right wing. They're not trying to be traditional. They're just trying to be fuck boys or something.  

[02:08:52] allen marcus:

Well, part of the white privilege   in her mind perhaps might be that   being white means you're born into an American   Christian   nation, these types of things. So she's operating on a whole collection of assumptions   from her feminist   perspective   while trying to critique   the worst aspects of red pillism   without even addressing those issues.   But basically, at the end, pulling out the race card saying this is this is racism.  

[02:09:22] John Roeland:

This is sexism. None of the rest of that card is the race card.  

[02:09:28] allen marcus:

So maybe that's how she shuts down the debate altogether   to say,   can't even debate these guys.   I can't even believe they didn't bring these points up.  

[02:09:38] John Roeland:

I'm shocked shocked that time. Also also,   didn't you mention, Marcus, that,   the individual who reached out to you was dealing with sense censorship.   Right. Of his ideas. So again, this article,   you know, goes to   to promote that. The idea that   this these these thoughts are dangerous, and these ideas are dangerous, and they're spreading, and then they're gonna lead to this. And Well, does that then prove  

[02:10:05] allen marcus:

the point of the soft power   of feminism   being able to silence men's communities?   There's also the aspect of men's rights activists.   If we're trying to then categorize and figure out what is the Venn diagram,   If there's an entire, you know, species of men, the male species,   and their literature and their wisdom,   I don't know that that's necessarily the manosphere, but it's implied that the manosphere covers   everything masculine,   male, and men.   So then within that, there'll be pop up communities that might be focused   on men's rights.  

So those are the men who have been married,   have been divorced, are paying alimony, are trying to fight for custody.   That's a certain area of the manosphere   that has its own suppression   and pushback   and censorship.   The MGTOW community   is sort of its own little thing.   So with what I'm saying here, I'm describing   this   splintered   aspect of unity   in men,   but then it's splintered off from the female, the the woman.   And then to   continue to post articles from a feminist perspective   is to antagonize   men   proactively   assuming that all red pill men   want   to use women for just one thing,   milk them, and then leave them because the milk's gonna get sour because   women   age, and that's a frightening thing that men haven't dealt with.  

It points to a lot of immaturity   and a lack of spirituality   and coming to terms with   this is life, and we're living it, and how do we best live it.   So   last week, we did talk about wanting to   write   in the positive, in the affirmative,   maxims,   truisms, principles, and things   that would strengthen men and sharpen iron with men. Do you guys have   thoughts on how we could rewrite some of these things   into the positive, into the affirmative, into,   actionable,   directive for a hoo   sort of military   recruitment scenario?  

[02:12:32] John Roeland:

Well, I I I definitely,   number 1   would always be become your own man.   And it's only through becoming your own man that you're gonna attract a woman that you truly   want,   and that is gonna be,   because you have just as becoming your own man become worthy of that woman.   She's gonna be a worthy woman. That's the only time that you're gonna get that worthy woman. So the the women that you're even able to   acquire   up until that point are definitely not gonna be worth it because you're not worth it.   You want to   have a a strong,   woman become a strong man.  

And, this is where I really have a departure from the MGTOW.   To me,   that is just a bunch of basement incels crying because they never could become a good enough a strong enough man to,   have the relationship that they're crying around that they want.   And,   they these people can look at me and act like Christy just fucking fell out of the fucking sky and became a, you know, like like, I picked her off of a tree or something.   And she was the only one that existed. But if y'all think that the person that I am didn't help set that situation up, then you're fucking nuts. And then that just tells me that you're not willing to become   the man that you need to be to be worthy of that woman.  

So   that's   number 1.   And from there, the rest of it gets real fucking easy. We don't even need to make a list. You become that dude. It'll all fall into place.  

[02:14:22] John Roeland:

Yeah. I agree. Anything that's focused on   self worth,   improving   yourself,   not being so obsessed with,   attention from women,   that that's not the ultimate goal of life.   Those parts of it   are   there is some truth to that. It's just being it's just being applied to hookup culture,   so   it ends   up being less meaningful.   But those rules in general,   don't don't get over, you know, overly reactive because you see a beautiful woman.   You know, that's just like telling a guy not to catcall   a woman. Right? I mean, it's the same kind of mentality.   Be respectful. And so, obviously, that all starts with self respect.  

So anything in in there that promotes that, I think, is worth keeping.   The fact that it's all being framed in in the hookup   perspective, I I think is interesting. They showed that picture of that one woman who she was from the show Flavor of Love.   It's interesting to think how much that those types of reality shows all played a a hand in this   this,   way of thinking, you know, where you're competing   for a woman and,   you know, like which one, you know, which man is the most desirable or which woman is the most desirable   or there was one where there was one woman and she was going for men and women.  

You know?   So, I mean, obviously, this stuff is just being we're being bombarded with it   in very   inverted ways,   and there are some real   lessons to be learned there. Like, the whole idea of the red pill being going down the rabbit hole, like, that's valuable. Like, to seek truth, to seek understanding of what's going on in the world, that's valuable, but,   interesting that it got,   attached to to this perspective.   I did wanna add,   I have to do give a shout out to Mark Passio and his presentation,   the unholy feminine.   It's long it's a long presentation. He put it out in 2016,   17,   and it really delves into a lot of this stuff. And, honestly, for me, looking at the red pill stuff now where I haven't really looked at it that much, like that   directly,   I can see a lot of the things that he's talking about   and how it's playing out now   where it really is,   they've created a war a war between the sexes   and that it's, you know, a depopulation   agenda   on some level. And,   yeah. So it's a long presentation,   you know, and it it because it's a presentation, you don't get all the name called you know, you don't get called names.  

But, yeah, it it is it is pretty interesting just to look at the occult influence on this and the social social engineering behind it.  

[02:17:27] allen marcus:

You mentioned the inversion. I think what we were   most appalled by is the fact that so much of these lists contains the thou shall nots. They were   inverted. They were not in the affirmative. They were not in the positive. So a simple thing to do immediately is to begin to think in terms of   what you want and beginning to attract   that which you want. So when you fill your life up with quality women,   sisters,   aunts,   anyone, just talking to all women,   treating them as   human beings,   and then asking them just be honest with them and say, you know,   I'm a single guy.  

Got any advice from me. What can I do to improve? Talking with them, engaging with them, working with them, not working against them. So attracting   what you want and then attracting more of what you want would go into having the mission. So if you know   that you want to eventually have a relationship with someone, and you probably do   begin to work towards   that goal. So much of the red pill stuff   sort of gets you going in circles. It sort of gets you to,   you know, go through and evaluate yourself on a a qualitative way to, like, rate yourself,   or then causes you to doubt yourself. So then it you you you begin to see the areas where you're lacking in confidence, confidence, where you're lacking in skill,   and then it causes you to need to seek out   help from guys   who   don't care.  

Men don't care about other men. So it's like they're not going to treat your problems with any sort of   concern because guys don't open up to other guys. So that's the other problem in the community where they're always focusing on success   with women. I don't see a lot of red pill topics talking about how do we,   as men,   have a sort of chivalry or a code or helping each other out? If the best advice that was offered tonight was just to tell another man not to be a better,   cock and raise another man's seed.   That's not a that's not a positive thing. That's not an affirmative thing, and that doesn't move   you forward   in life to anywhere you wanna be.  

It's sort of the doom pill nihilist perspective to say we live in a fallen world.   You know, it this is you know, Lucifer rules the air and Satan rules the earth, and we're in the end times apocalypse.   So why even   try to start a family? Why even try to do anything   if the presidency is doomed and we can't even have a fair Olympics and everything is   terrible. Well,   there's already men who are   starting a parallel economy. There's already men who are going their own way in the best possible way to do their own thing. Instead of standing up to authority,   they're saying,   I'm the authority.  

They're not an obstacle.   I'm moving forward.   These are the thoughts I'm having in closing.  

[02:20:40] John Roeland:

It just dawned on me that,   my favorite movie   probably is Fight Club,   and   I I saw a little clip of it on one of the videos I was watching earlier. And in that, it's definitely,   I don't think we need another woman is what we need in our life. Right? And they, you know, they kind of run around and, you know, take down take down or start the revolution,   and the woman in it is just a mess.   But,   yeah, I I'm really, appreciative of, doing this with you guys. I'm learning a lot, you know, in closing.   I I kind of had   a a sense of what the red pill was, but not on this level. So   definitely learning a lot. I like the idea of thinking about   ways that we can kind of pick out the positive aspects of all of these things and then   apply it to to what we think would work because, obviously, there is a need for   some,   some nuanced messaging, you know, not so extreme, not either side of the pole. So,   yeah, I appreciate you guys for helping us to   to sharpen the sword once again.  



[02:21:51] John Roeland:

Yeah. This is this is absolutely been a wonderful   experiment,   and I I'm so glad that we did it and that you guys   agreed to join me on it.   I this is, this has just been absolutely awesome.   I think,   Ryan up here,   this this pretty much sums it up. Don't spend your time chasing butterflies,   plant, build a beautiful garden. That's you know, metaphorically, that sums it up. You you want that you want that   traditional   life where,   you know, you have this wife that says wonderful comfort and you have this nice home and stuff. You gotta build that. You you've gotta make that.   And then those things come to you.  

We have too much, the the the cart chase you know, the cart before the horse going on with society. They're also worried about the prize, and they don't want to worry about their responsibility,   in order to achieve that.   And I definitely   believe that there's gonna be a meaningful change made in the world.   These,   knee jerk reactions where we go from one   horrible extreme to the other   is absolutely not the way.   And I believe a 100% in this,   debate form is the way to do it because this is where you can have a more,   involved in nuanced discussion.  

I think that we're gonna end up running   when we,   try to debate against the more,   this feminist side as opposed to the red pill side, which we will try to do both,   I think we're gonna have a lot less luck with the feminist   and and honestly, even the more educated debaters.   I've been watching   some of the   actual debates from, like,   intellectual world.   And in baked into those are these extreme   liberal presuppositions.   Like one of them that I was just watching, the debate wasn't   whether,   conservative ideology   or liberal ideology   was most beneficial   or anything like that. It was, should conservative ideology   because it's so harmful and contains so much misinformation   be made,   be banned,   due to misinformation.  

So and the the conservative the team taking the conservative side already baked in those all those presuppositions   where it's like, hold the back the fuck up. Hold on.   He you you've already give you've already, started this fight on a winning side. Like, I can't even win the fight here. Like, you're just basically asking me to say, yeah. We're evil, but we still need representation.   Like, that's the only thing you've left me fucking room for here.   So I but,   I really am looking forward to getting into this with some of the other folks and after we go through this period of feeling this out and   developing our own positions and getting those out there.  

I'm just I it's been a long time since I've been   super I love spiders.   Everybody check out weaving spiders every Saturday. I love spiders. That is that is my time,   but that's almost like, my my friend's social time.   I've really been looking forward to doing this as a project, and I feel like it's gonna really have a lot of meaningful impact as we get going. So I I I I thank you guys, and this has just been awesome.  

[02:25:44] John Roeland:

Thanks, everybody.   I'm gonna get ready to hit the button. Any more last words?  

[02:25:50] allen marcus:

Yeah. Our goal will be to make this audio available in most convenient way. So alanmarcus.com  

[02:26:07] John Roeland:

Alright.   Everybody have a good night. Thanks for keeping the chat lively. That was great.   Peace.