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Join the dudes debate on chastity and its role in creating strong men. Examine the argument in favor of men only having sex with their wife.

• 12 Rules for Chastity: Building Stronger Men
• The Case for Celibacy: Strengthening Modern Men
• Chastity and Strength: A Deep Dive into Will Spencer's 12 Rules
• Navigating Modern Dating: The Role of Chastity and Commitment
• From Promiscuity to Purity: Strengthening Men Through Chastity?

Welcome back to the Deliberating Dog Face Dudes! 

We start with a light-hearted introduction featuring a song by The Funky Fathers and then transition into a serious discussion about feminism, sexual liberation, and the concept of chastity. 

Allen Marcus introduces us to Will Spencer's '12 Rules for Chastity,' a document aimed at promoting celibacy before marriage as a means to build stronger, more disciplined men. 

We critically analyze each of the 12 rules, discussing their strengths and weaknesses, and offer our own perspectives on how these arguments could be strengthened. We also touch on the broader societal implications of promiscuity, the role of trust and commitment in relationships, and the challenges of teaching healthy sexuality in today's hypersexualized culture. 

(00:04:32) Introduction and Podcast Welcome

(00:05:14) Discussing Feminism and Sexual Liberation

(00:06:04) Rachel Wilson and Occult Aspects of Feminism

(00:07:01) Will Spencer's 12 Rules for Chastity

(00:08:19) Rule 1: Clarity

(00:17:00) Rule 2: Discipline

(00:28:18) Rule 3: Integrity

(00:45:43) Rule 4: Strength

(00:56:07) Rule 5: Insurance

(01:04:09) Rule 6: Victory

(01:14:15) Rule 7: Compatibility

(01:17:56) Rule 8: Consequences

(01:26:45) Rule 9: Uniqueness

(01:31:01) Rule 10: Continence

(01:37:38) Rule 11: Dedication

(01:47:24) Rule 12: Commitment

(02:00:00) Final Thoughts and Critique

- allen marcus

- Benjamin Balderson

- John Roeland

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[00:00:05] Benjamin Balderson:

There we go.   Okay.   You're good. Whenever you want.  

[00:03:46] John Roeland:

Surely disappear.   Well, hail.  

[00:04:15] allen marcus:

It's a beautiful song.  

[00:04:18] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah.   Yeah. That's the funky fathers.   You can, find them at the funky fathers.com.   That's Mike Mattingly.  

[00:04:29] John Roeland:

Nice.   Nice.   Well, welcome back to the deliberating   dog face dudes.  

[00:04:40] allen marcus:

That's 3 d's?  

[00:04:42] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. 3 d's.   3 big d's.  

[00:04:46] allen marcus:

Three dimensionals.   Yeah.   I see that now.   Woah.   There it is.  

[00:04:53] Benjamin Balderson:

What's more manly than the letter d? You know?  

[00:05:02] allen marcus:

3 big d's.   You're gonna be a spicy show.  

[00:05:12] Benjamin Balderson:

Well, it was a   apropos song. You know? They they put a spell on you. Right? So   kinda kinda get into,   I guess, you know, the spell of feminism today.  

[00:05:26] allen marcus:

Feminism, feminine wiles.  

[00:05:30] Benjamin Balderson:

Mhmm. Sexual liberation.  

[00:05:38] John Roeland:

Yeah. I think we got some interesting points to cover on that   for   sure.   Again, we're gonna try and some of these things we're gonna go over.   I did definitely find a a list for red pill,   and we're gonna start going over some of these things. These more hotly debated topics, and that way everybody kinda gets an idea where we stand before we start debating.   So we kinda have a position.   And this week, Marcus has   picked for us after watching a a video with race Rachel Wilson,   who were   looking to invite on spiders to talk about the occult   side of things and some of her work   matches with some of our work on   the Theosophical   Society and such.  

I I wouldn't take some of her takeaways from it, but,   for when you study it further, that was just one one wing of a much grander   plan.   But,   with that,   tell us what you got there, Marcus.  

[00:06:46] allen marcus:

Yeah. As you said, looking into   author Rachel Wilson and her   book   on feminism   and the occult aspects of feminism,   discovered she had done a lot of interviews with a lot of different people. One of those   people is a guy named Will Spencer. So digging into   Will Spencer's links and following them to see where they lead   to social media and other, appearances and things. It turns out he   released this document called 12 rules for chastity,   and I thought that was a   short little document, a good little tract to read through, and he makes a lot of interesting points about   chastity and the twelve reasons in favor of   not having sex outside of or before marriage,   which might seem puritanical,   might seem Christian, and I think that is his position. I don't know if he's   orthodox Christian or evangelical   protestant.  

I don't think that really matters in terms of what he's talking about in this document. It's not a religious argument. It's a general argument for   all men at all   times everywhere.   And from that, having written them down, putting them in a document makes it easy for us to go through and   determine what are the strongest arguments, what are the weak arguments, what which of these arguments we agree or disagree with,   and I guess we'll just start with the first one.   So in this document,   he lists clarity as a reason for   abstaining   from sex until marriage.  

Clarity is the ability to think clearly and rationally.   He mentions the hormones and oxytocin   being a   love hormone   that creates the feeling of emotion and attachment.   And if this,   hormone,   oxytocin, is experienced outside of marriage or outside of a committed relationship,   then it could lead to heartbreak, obviously, and even worse than that.   So clarity as a reason for chastity.   What do you guys think?  

[00:09:08] John Roeland:

Not not, I don't find this particularly   convincing. I do like where it started.   But, I mean, at the end of it, you're, you have to have this   moral predisposition to,   thinking that   it's bad.   I mean, the easiest for a guy thing to throw out there is post nut clarity.   You know,   there's, you know, plenty of guys that'll definitely tell you   that, you know,   when, when your panties are in a bunch, you don't really think right. And then afterwards,   some of the things that you were fully willing to buy into, you're like,   I don't know about all that. It's,   that was,   that was this guy talking.  

And he was he was willing to sign me down the road for anything, but the rest of me, it's maybe not down with this plan.   So, I mean, there is that, which again, I'm which all around, I'm not against   the idea of chastity before marriage   at all.   I   I'm just not sure that this is a good argument.  

[00:10:23] allen marcus:

He puts it as his   first point in the argument.   Would you lower it in the list? Is it not the  

[00:10:32] John Roeland:

starting point? I would probably take it out. I don't see where it's a particularly good argument for me. The only thing that I do understand that   you do make a chemical, you know, hormonal transition, and you're supposed to bond with that person   in a in a special way because of it. And I can understand saying that that should be somebody that you then are, you know, gonna marry or you are married to,   you know, saving that special chemical bond for somebody.   Because if you start spreading that around, it loses it.   You know?  

But then again, you still have to have that predisposition   that that's a better thing. I I just don't see where this any of this is a particularly great argument.  

[00:11:17] Benjamin Balderson:

Man, my my mind is racing on on   this topic in general   and then applying my experience   to that.   But I think with clarity, what I'm getting from this   is the idea of the hot and heavy   physical relationship where you meet somebody and you're attracted and you guys you know, it's all, you know, it's all great in the beginning.   And then you don't really know who that person is, so it kind of clouds your judgment.   I've had plenty of those experiences.   So and, I thought of the post nut clarity too, which is something that I realized,   you know, before I even started having sex, that if I was interested in somebody   and I, you know, serviced myself,   right afterwards, I was kind of less interested.  

And then it also reminds me of I think it was my mom.   I was raised, you know,   baptized Catholic and then raised   mostly in a Nazarene church,   which is,   like Christian light, I would say. Like, very little ritual, just, you know, more community and   pretty simple. But I remember someone saying to me that   if you're promiscuous,   then when you're older,   it'll be harder   to have a, you know, like, a meaningful relationship with somebody.   And,   and I have I have found struggles with that in terms of,   whatever   stuff I was running around doing when I was young,   completely detaching from that   in order to maintain   solid relationships with a partner,   has taken me a lot, you know, a long time,   as an adult to learn. So,   yeah, so,   those are my thoughts on that. I mean,   again, I think from his perspective, he's talking about   the hot and heavy relationship that really isn't the right one, and it's hard to to keep that clear when you introduce   sex.  



[00:13:38] allen marcus:

And there are 12 of these rules. I think we'll go through each   of them,   briefly make our statements, and we can circle back.   The second one being disciplined. The document reads sexual temptation and symbols. You don't get away.  

[00:13:53] John Roeland:

You don't get away, you also have to give opinion.  

[00:13:58] allen marcus:

Oh, hot start to a cold end is my opinion here.   When you jump into something   real hot and heavy   and you don't really have a plan and it's sort of this, well, let's see what happens thing,   Generally, you leave food out overnight. It goes to room temperature   or you put in the refrigerator,   this sort of thing. Your appetite, well, what is your appetite for? Is it in the right direction?   This type of thing. The clarity makes a lot of sense where   people will say the whole reason of dating and seeing different people is to kinda get the flavor palette. You know, go through the face, see what you like and what you don't like.   And this is talking about the clarity of, well, are you physically attracted to the person, or are you just   feeling the feelings of the biological imperative so the person doesn't matter?  

With this document, I've read through it. The key in this document   is to say that the person,   the man and the woman are both   people. They're very important   and this document is highly   in favor of not using bodies   for just the sake of being a body.   So this   is kind of a male imperative to say, let's respect women and let's not use them as just   experience   objects to gain that experience.   This goes against what the general red pill says in terms of the Venusian arts and using   the game method and other pickup artist method   to   lure women in to seal the deal, to then   decide if you have enough game to level up. And then maybe after you've played the field, then maybe consider marriage. This document is going before that and saying, well, hold on. Before you go to bars and clubs with the intention of picking up women and then bringing them home and sealing the deal with them, Let's consider these factors before we even consider   if you wanna dedicate, you know, your twenties thirties and forties   to gaming women.  



[00:16:08] John Roeland:

So if you're looking at the argument that way, then that's very similar to what John's saying.   And and I do definitely I if you're putting it that way, I can see   where the clarity   comes in, where you've taken the time after, like, say,   10, you know, dates or 10 months or whatever   time period,   you've if you hold off the sex, you're gonna start gaining some clarity on what you actually think of the person   rather than just going in for the fun.   I I I can agree with that. I I I mean, like I said, I still don't think it's a strong argument. I wouldn't lead with it. But,   you know, to convince   a a young person to that, it's definitely not gonna be a strong argument in my opinion. But but   go ahead. Move on.  



[00:17:03] allen marcus:

Right. And as we continue through this document, you'll kind of see   Will Spencer's worldview.   What he's telling other men is probably the best   method of living to avoid   all the complications   and pain and heartbreak,   this type of thing. He comes from a Christian perspective. He does bring that in into the document, but for these 12 rules, they're not because the Bible says so. He's trying to add practical reasons why this is a good idea to teach young men to say,   wait till marriage,   wedding day,   honeymoon is gonna be the reward.   So point 2, he says integrity.  

No. Point 2 is discipline, 3 is integrity. Let's go back to point 2, discipline. He says sexual temptation is the most powerful temptation known to adults.   It gives us   on the deepest and most fundamental level as humans, the ability to resist sex with a woman who isn't your wife will signal to her that she does become your wife. You can be right lied upon to resist other lesser temptations   as well.   So with discipline, this is the set of rules regulating the behavior.   Also, it's it could be a punishment to train or maintain control.   And in Catholicism,   it is a web fuse for self   flagellation.  

So this whole   discipline thing might bring on images of, BDSM and and control and this type of thing, and that is in play here in this conversation.   For this document, though, it's a lot more tame, a lot more vanilla   discipline. What do you guys think?  

[00:18:41] John Roeland:

I I I do like the argument.   If you're trying to convince somebody that's not already a little bit on this page again, I'm not sure that I would put this so highly on the list.   But I do definitely,   agree that   our mannerisms and behaviors,   that that is what we're supposed to be being judged on. And we're unfortunately in this society that's very   full.   As in, you know, like,   we look at the surface of things   and and the pretty surface, and we don't look at what's beneath.   And the thing is is that   to not to see beneath that surface, you actually have to look at a person's actions. And that takes that takes some time,   and we don't wanna give that kind of time. We want everything to be immediate, everything to be push button.  

And so we don't ever wanna wait and see how things develop.   But,   all around, I really like where that one went.   One of the things that I've always said, it kinda it reminds me of, like,   when guys talk to me about,   some guys think it's okay to take a girl from another dude.   Well, then   if she's been if she's been disloyal in that way before, what in god's name makes you think that she's gonna   not be disloyal again? The next time the grass is greener on the other side, she's gonna jump that fence again,   and you're foolish to not do it when you're looking to settle down and find a a reliable partner to build a life with. It needs to be somebody that has a track record of loyalty   and has shown that.  

You aren't gonna want somebody that jumps all over the place because then the whole thing is is then you're you end up turning into the crazy jealous person because   you're worried she's gonna be a runaround because, well, you were part of her being a runaround.   So that same idea of   he doesn't sleep around now, so   he certainly wouldn't sleep around later. When I met Christie,   that's part of what Christie's comfort in our relationship was that Christie,   I we were working together in this shop. So   I I'm   extremely knowledgeable on crystals,   and I owned a crystal shop.  

So,   I would get younger girls   basically throwing themselves at me. And Christy would watch me day in and day out not take those easy opportunities   to go and,   you know,   go have some carnal pleasures   and things real cheap.   She's a and so   considering that I already didn't   partake in those kind of behaviors,   it wasn't hard for her to make the leap that I'm not gonna   do that when her and I are in a relationship,   and we're already having   our   sex that I do enjoy, why would I go start being,   degenerate   in that,   in that type of way? So   completely agree with the discipline. I'm not sure I would put it so high on the list again for if you're trying to convince young people, but   what do you got to say, John?  



[00:22:08] Benjamin Balderson:

When,   especially when I was younger, I was very   extreme.   Either one way being, you know, living, you know, total debauchery   party, not giving, you you know, not giving a damn, just doing whatever.   And then I would, like, go through these phases where I just wanted to, like like, have discipline and go to the gym. And I always tied in   sex with that, including pleasing   myself.   And   one thing I always found interesting about that was I always felt like if I went, like, a good month   without,   you know, trying to go pick up any women or trying to talk to any women or and, you know, looking for that, that then it was as if I was more attractive to women, which I always found interesting.   We used to call it the no game game. You know,   where when you're not trying   so hard,   you know, the opportunities,   present themselves more.  

And then one thing I wanted to add, which doesn't necessarily   deal with discipline, but   an interesting,   factor I've realized with this discussion is it's so hard to separate yourself from your conditioning.   So   I remember feeling guilty,   like, you know,   in my late teens, early twenties when I was just really coming into my sexuality,   feeling guilty that, you know, whenever I did engage in meaningless   sex.   And,   I struggled with that for a long time. Like, was that a natural thing, or was that the influence   of the religion that I grew up in?   So I just think that's an interesting topic as well. But I definitely think   that re refraining from sexuality is a a major form of discipline. I agree.  



[00:24:07] allen marcus:

When it comes to self discipline, I think that's very important. That's a very important quality   and not just in terms of,   delayed sexual gratification   or delayed gratification of any kind.   For this document,   reading through it,   understanding   that this is open to all men to consider these ideas   and all ages as well.   So when we're talking about, like, the psychology of fascism   and the way that sexuality   and the libido   is used through propaganda and in marketing and and controlling all these things   to really focus on the discipline aspect of it. I mentioned earlier the the flagellation,   the self flagellation,   the punishment for not being   disciplined.  

So to   focus so strongly on discipline   kinda sets up this discipline undisciplined   sort of a spectrum between,   bouncing back and forth between it. And I worry that this might set up a situation where   some men are   to the point where this discipline aspect gets associated with sexuality, which then   causes turn ons and attractions,   which might then lead them to seek out dominatrixes   and be, submissives.   So now if you're focusing so heavily on the discipline aspect,   so so soon in this document,   will it backfire?   I don't know. I have more questions about that.  



[00:25:43] Benjamin Balderson:

Well yeah. And I and I would say that   that   that swing   that swing back, you know, when you are going to those extremes   can be can be pretty damaging,   you know, when you've,   you know, been sober and go at least for me, I've had that experience   of being really healthy and doing everything really, you know, like, really disciplined. And then   then all of a sudden, one night, you party. And then for the next 2 months, you're, you   know, you're off your   off your regimen. So  

[00:26:15] John Roeland:

And it is interesting what Marcus says because   I believe any of us that have raised children and been around groups of children have have met the child   who will literally   do all the worst things, almost like they're begging for punishment.   And then once they get punishment,   then they're good. They're like they're almost gleeful, like, like, especially if you're a parent that spanks or things like that. And then they're the sweetest, happiest little kid, and you're like, did you want that? That's a super,   that's super interesting thing   that Marcus brought up because there are some that do enjoy the punishment side also.  

So then it just turns it into a upper downer   situation, and they like both sides. So it's they're gonna take both extremes.   Hell of a good group in the chat tonight. Hail, Sarah g and Stella Moon.   Bernie, what's up, brother?   JD.   Yeah.  

[00:27:16] allen marcus:

So when  

[00:27:17] John Roeland:

Isaiah,   Isaiah, Ice.  

[00:27:19] allen marcus:

When we do talk about these topics and especially with this document   was, you know, if it's assuming that people are   very   pure and they've never logged on to the Internet, they don't have any experience, they haven't done their own research and   documentary films,   National Geographic,   the Discovery Channel, Lost Tribes of Africa, these types of things. People are gonna be exposed to this from day 1. So to create a document   that   includes,   like, chastity in the text itself,   not acknowledging   the, greater forces at play here   is probably going to weaken the argument.  

That's gonna be one of my major cons concerns with this document is that it's   treating   people as if   this is the first time they've ever   encountered these ideas.   So that's sort of like paneling them with children's gloves, kinda talking down to them. I think to meet them at their own level and to say, yeah, there's there's these challenges, certainly,   but we wanna we wanna encourage men to have that clarity, to be disciplined, and then number 3 leads to integrity.   We can all agree integrity is is a great   idea.  

That's number 3.   Will Spencer writes point number 3 for   his,   twelve rules for chastity,   3 is integrity. It reads, if you tell a woman that you've chosen chastity before marriage and demonstrate the truth of your words through your actions,   then you prove   that you are the man you say you are.   The right word for that is integrity,   a quality solely lacking in young men today. Being a man of integrity has great value, not just in your romantic relationships, but in brotherhood with other men and in the workplace as well.  

[00:29:19] John Roeland:

You know, kind of kind of fits in with number 2.   The integrity of your ability to,   you know,   do this thing. I mean,   they they throw in that you've told them that you're a chased person,   and now you're proving your words.   I mean,   like, is she giving you opportunity and you're like, no, evil witch. Don't touch it.   You know? I mean, I I I'm not sure how this pans out. I absolutely   integrity   as a person,   is honestly,   one of my number   I'm gonna have to say number one   thing is a is a trait to be as a person.   You can make argue arguments for a lot of things, but if you don't have integrity, I don't even know how to deal with you.   You're not being true to yourself even.  

You I I I'd much rather deal with a person that I know where they stand and they their they their actions and their words match, and I don't agree with them than   somebody that says   one thing, but then acts in another and things like that. And I just don't   I'd rather know where things where things are. So, I mean,   integrity is a real big thing for me all around.   If you're Christian and you're reading if you're already Christian and you're reading this,   I see where this is a big argument.   I mean, I guess, you know, when I stop and try and think about it, if we're, like, trying to make these arguments for a for a young man   who's,   thinking about joining the dating world and   is not   meaning one way or the other   for this kind of thing.  

I don't know that   any of these arguments are particularly   strong or if I could even make a particularly strong argument.   I certainly don't know that if I go back to   14, 15, 16 year old Ben,   I don't necessarily know that I could think of any arguments I would make against myself that I'd be like, yeah. This will get him not to do it.   But hey. Hey. Yeah. I just don't know.   But I don't agree or disagree with the sentiment. I really   like the sentiment quite a bit. You know?   Again,   Christy knew that I was somebody that was not a runaround at that point in time, that I have had periods of that in my life.   I'm not saying that I'm some   virtue   mountain.  

I've made mistakes, a lot of them in my life, and I've made solid choices   afterwards.   I I would certainly hope,   and try not to repeat them,   or at least, after I   learned that that behavior wasn't something that was acceptable. And this being one of them,   just entirely stop it and truly stop it. Like I said, when Christy and I met,   she saw me living out the things that I was saying that I don't think that that kind of behavior is acceptable. It's just like, yeah. I see him get the chances, and he just walks away.   She's literally seen me girls try to get up and, you know, do that thing where they're talking and they have to touch you and everything, and I'll just grab a crystal and just put it in between. It's like, there you go. Don't don't don't don't be all touchy up young.  

So   she understood that there was an integrity to my word to my word and my actions.   I don't disagree with sentiment at all.   I still don't know if I was 16 that you could make me think that I shouldn't do this, to have sex, though.  

[00:33:20] Benjamin Balderson:

I have thought a lot about how you could teach healthy sexuality   to   children.   And I do think that something like this, like life skills,   they could be introduced even younger before you're talking about sexuality so they have a grasp of what these concepts mean in general.   I'll say for me, integrity I mean, integrity is about   really being honest about what you're doing and what your intentions are. So I know at one point in my life,   like, when I was in, like, just getting out of high school and I, like, cheated on a few girlfriends. And and I realized if I'm gonna be if I'm gonna play the field, I'm just gonna be honest about it. And to me, that's a level of integrity because at least I'm not trying to trick anybody   into, oh, I love you and I wanna be with you forever. I'm pretty much just letting it be known at that time.  

I'm not looking for that.   And,   so, you know, in that way, both both ways could be integrity. It's more about   being honest   with the other person about what your intentions are, what you're looking for.   So I think that's the important part of integrity.   Not tricking people into,   sexual relationships if you're not looking for anything serious and they are.   But   again, I do think in general, like, I agree with you guys. Again, we're we're at the point we're at and we're all inundated. I mean, it's a it's a   fractured society. Right? We're, like, raised with these Christian values on one hand. And then on the other hand, you've got all this sexualizing   that's just increasing and increasing and to the point we're at now where I don't know if it could go any further.  

But,   you know, I mean, introducing this to to teens now is sort of like   counterculture,   but   I do think they would still look at it as   Christian,   and it would sort of have a negative   a negative,   connotation to it in their minds.  

[00:35:27] John Roeland:

Before you go, Marcus, can I ask, John a couple of questions here? Yep.   So   I also have been in the same position and live that same position where   I felt like as long as I was being honest   about,   not   I'm not trying to have a relationship here. I'm just having a good time.   You know? And so with that, you were able to have a good time with multiple women.   So   where I started having a problem with the and and I'm gonna tie and I tie this to the integrity,   is   that understanding   that   if you're truly being honest and having a true integrity,   where you're trying to be a good person. So   you understand that women, a lot of times, will do that kind of thing   and go with that kind of flow. Like, oh, yeah. I don't wanna get married. I don't want this.  

And a lot of times, they will do that in order. And I understand that there are some   little deception   in this. But the the fact is is they wanna be desirable and likable.   And so they're willing to   put themselves in positions that they're truly not cool with.   And you are actually   praying   on that. And and the thing is is I fucking know I was.   I fucking know I was.   Yeah. You know? Whether whether,   anybody else wants to admit it or not,   there were girls that and and you can go up and there are girls that they just they really like you, and they're all willing to oversee some bullshit,   And they're willing to do some shit that they're just not cool with   just to try and get your attention in time, and you're kind of being a fucking leech and a foul son of a bitch   by taking advantage of that.  

And I had to be true to truly have integrity with myself first and foremost.   I had to come to terms with that's actually what was going on. That   that this girl   may   I I I'm assuming just because   I'm saying I'm doing that that that that she's actually cool with that. Just like Christie   at one point in time,   And and I'm sure in her mind, she even convinced herself   that she didn't care about marriage.   And, her and I lived together and stuff first.   And,   we didn't we were very against the marriage from the state.   And   in the end of it,   when   I thought that situation through quite a bit and I asked Christy to marry me,   It changed her whole world. She always wanted to be married. She was always she was always saying that other ship because   that's what kept our relationship happy. It kept me happy, but that wasn't really what was gonna keep, and that's what women do. And that's a view one of the beautiful things that that you need to understand about women. But to be a good man, you need to understand when you're taking a dirty advantage of that shit. And that's where the integrity came in for me. So,   you know, just respond to that in general. I mean, I guess not a guy's question. It was more of a statement of what I had to work through in my own head when I moved   past that situation and into something more real.  



[00:38:59] Benjamin Balderson:

Go ahead and respond, John. Yeah. I I would agree. I mean, I definitely   was conflicted   at that time. And,   I knew there were times where   there were women that like, I had, like, a sense that,   you know, we had come we had crossed paths because I was maybe supposed to help them with something.   But I guess at that time in my life, it wasn't clear on what   I could offer them.   And,   again, I mean, I I'm raised in this mess just like the rest of us. So,   I was, you know, playing a role to a certain extent   of what I thought it meant to be   cool and, you know, like, you know, like, have you know, like, this guy talks about your body count.  

Right? And then,   and,   again, I mean, it is interesting. I'm seeing in the chat a lot of the women saying how gross it is.   And, I mean, that's an interesting   phenomenon too because   I don't think men innately think it's gross   to hook up with multiple women,   but women   do. You know? So,   that's an interesting What  

[00:40:12] John Roeland:

what I think most that you can point out on that is   if there's   a   a   a societal,   like, fiction   that it's acceptable for men to do that and not acceptable for women. And that men will   dislike women with a high body count, but women are okay with men with a high body count. And the women in our chat are absolutely showing that that is not acceptable.   And and   when we cut when we get to that point of that discussion, I have   a number of other reasons why that's not acceptable.   But the just the women here themselves, while they might   put up with it, you know, out of basically desperation because they don't feel they have a better choice,   they absolutely will not go with it. And the same can be said for men. So it's it's no different that whole fiction that it's okay for men and not women in women's minds. That's horseshit, obviously.  



[00:41:12] Benjamin Balderson:

Well, I mean, I'll just say, I mean, it just again points to the confusion in society because   my experience   in, like, in high school was seeing that all the guys who   had success with multiple women,   those were the desirable guys from what I was observing. Now again, maybe I'm looking at a certain type of girl,   but   the perception I had   was that those guys that were   had, you know, multiple girlfriends and all these, you know,   It didn't seem to keep any of the other girls from being interested in them too.   You know? So so then it was sort of like,   and, you know, I mean, this is very unique to me, but, you know, I,   I look at I, yeah, I grew up on hip hop, you know, and in the Bay Area. And it's all about being a player, Mac,   you know, and, like, going hard on hoes and all that stuff. And, I mean, that then applied to a bunch of suburban white kids. I mean, there were there was a lot of ethnicities where I live, so we were influenced by a lot of different cultures.  

But with that underlying message of,   you know, basically, like, not giving a not giving a crap about a girl and, you know, just hooking up with her and getting whatever you can from her.   You know, it did. I mean, it it does seem to mess up the women too because   they at   least at at least at that time, they seem to be more attracted to those men as well. So,   yeah. I mean, it's   it's messed up.  

[00:42:52] allen marcus:

And that's kind of where Will Spencer   releases this document, 12 Rules for Chastity,   an antidote   to weakness,   recognizing   that sexual liberation from the sixties   and now into modern age with influencers   and the manosphere   creating weak men out of this promiscuity. So men are weak and viewed as weak, promiscuity. So men are   weak and viewed as weak and experiencing weakness due to their promiscuity.   As the saying goes, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times, this type of thing. And through   the sexual liberation, especially women's liberation,   birth control, no fault divorce, all these things, the   the legal matter is just mired and all sorts of   confusion.  

And to cut   through that,   this clarity,   this discipline, this integrity,   these are antidotes to weakness according to Will Spencer   in this document. Do we get to point,   I guess my reaction to the integrity thing, my notes here,   It is when you prove that you are the man you say you are, you build integrity.   And then this sort of moral or ethical code having   integrity in yourself   is sort of the self confidence to say that, you know, I am I'm valued. I have I have worth   people like me. And the opposite of that is   sort of this,   these lies that you'll get into your mind where   the voices this could get into, like, schizophrenia   and mental illness, these come from voices saying that, well, see, you don't have integrity.  

You have no self discipline. You never have. You never will. So don't even try.   There's no recovering   from these disastrous   relationships you've ever had. You've got this habit. Your mom and dad were not perfect. You're not gonna be perfect, so why even try? Marriage is unobtainable,   so   settle for less than   marriage.   Keep riding around town.   The phrase is the cock carousel. You know, you ride around. You jump on whatever you can. This type of thing. These easy women   having these   one night stands leads to this lowering of integrity,   this destruction of self discipline,   and there is no clarity in that. It's just very dizzying   and intoxifying. And then add to that party culture,   drugs and alcohol, and all the other,   unhealthy habits that create a lifestyle   that leads to weak men.  

Will Spencer is saying the antidote to weakness are these 12 things. He's mentioned clarity, discipline,   integrity, and the force is gonna be   strength. Are we ready to move on to strength?  

[00:45:47] John Roeland:

I did just wanna state real quick.   John did even hit hit this point in when he was talking, and this is gonna be everybody else and hail James Maiden, you big stud.   The,   the girls that   we that you are chasing after in those situations   usually are horrible girls. And I had,   a buddy, and he's like, why do I always it's it's always   these girls, well, you know, always ends up so bad, and they always end up so psycho. And then we pull we pull up into a gas station, and then it's this girl that looked like she came from the worst trailer court that you've ever been in in,   you know, what was   a 12 pack of cheap beer and some Xanax and a and a some,   Fentanyl   and that big old tramp stamp. And he's like, oh, that's what I'm talking about. And I'm like, well, that's why it all they all turn out like that, dude, because that's what you're chasing after. You want those   easy girls   and that and even in John's statement   with the rap, it's all about the hoes. Well, that girl who wants to be your wife, she's not my wife ain't no fucking hoe.  

And so if you're after hoes,   yeah. Yeah. They're the ones that are acting like assholes, and they'll sleep with the girl guys that sleep with multiple girls, and that's all okay because they're hoes.   What we need as men to start doing   is   staying away from hoes.   Like,   you you need to just   leave that the hell alone. And then shame other men   for for riding that village bicycle.   Like,   that needs to be a thing that don't high 5 guys that that   did that with other guys.   Shame that dude.   Like,   straight up.   And that's when that became cool and and and the those were the girls you were chasing after, that's just a whole mindset   all in its own. Nobody   looks at the girl next door and looks at that not on notch on their belt. They look for the girl twerking her ass and wearing the g string up above with her panties up above her pants and things like that. You're not going for that girl next door.  

So  

[00:48:09] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. I would just say, like, I you know, I agree with you. But, man, how do you get a 17 year old, 18 year old boy   to think that   way? You know? I mean, some of them some of them do for them.   Some of them do, but, I mean,   it's such an uphill battle. You know? I mean, I like, again, I think this kind of these kind of life skills need to be introduced much earlier   in order to have any   any opportunity. If they've already   I mean, I've got 2 nieces.   1 in high school, 1 in middle school.   And the other day, I seen my niece at the, you know,   down in the downtown   area with her friends. And I look over and, I see her butt cheeks, You know? And so I texted my sister,   and my sister is like, yeah. It's a constant battle. And what do they say to her? They say, my body, my choice.  

So, I mean,   it's   it runs deep.  

[00:49:10] allen marcus:

Yeah. The whole culture   at this point has become just mired in   sexuality of all kinds,   confusing sexuality,   mixed up sexuality,   sexual signals just for the sake   of sex, putting it out there everywhere.   And it's it's might be hypersexual.   It might be anti sexual. It's just confusing is what it is.   This is why Will   writes these 12 rules for chastity to say it's time   to have some clarity, have some discipline, have some integrity.   4 is strength. He says, this one is simple. If you can't stand up to your wife, you can't stand up for her.   Furthermore, if a woman succeeds in seducing you sexually before marriage,   she'll be able to seduce you in other ways after you get married.  

That is a recipe for disaster in a world where the family faces more threats than ever from both inside the home and out. So have the strength   to remain   chaste.   Pure. Chastity.   This is the voluntary   celibate manifesto,   and it's a good thing.  

[00:50:22] Benjamin Balderson:

I just gotta say one thing that this story has been, like, in my mind, and this one reminded me of it. But around the age of 21, I was   I was in the mode of, I can't just, like, hook up. It never works out when I hook up with a girl too soon. I need to give it time. I wanna I wanna date for at least 3 months before we do anything.   And I was dating this woman who was she's a little bit older than me. She already   had a kid.   And,   and the this one night, we were, you know,   it was on the verge.   And,   I   basically said, no. I don't wanna do this. And it, like, it offended her.   And she was, like, upset. You know? And I was like, I was so confused. I remember just being like, what? Like,   I'm trying to do the right thing. You know? And then, you know, then my dumbass, like, pretty much gave in the next time. You know? So,   I guess I fail I failed at that one, especially when I was younger. But   but   yeah. Just wanted to share that because I just I remember just being baffled   that I was trying to do the right thing. But,   I think it goes to what you're saying, Ben, is that women want to be   they want to be admired. They want to be wanted,   and she took it as a rejection.  

But it wasn't an a rejection,   but she couldn't wrap her mind around it.  

[00:51:49] John Roeland:

I agree.   I like this point very much.   It goes to a point that,   so there's a confusion that got basically, I think, purposely placed in society.   Women are more sexual and lusty than men are   by a lot.   Women are more   reserved   with where they will place that.   So where a a a man   will   they they tried and I was taught this, when I was young. And even when I was a kid, I was like,   what the fuck are they talking about? And they would say dumb shit like men think about sex every 8 seconds and   stupid shit like that. And I'm like even as a kid, I was like, how the hell would I ever get anything done or think about anything   think about anything else?  

That's just absolutely insane.   And so   we were taught   by,   a system   that men were the sexually driven ones,   and   that   is just not true.   Men for men, sex is,   when it strikes us, we want it. As soon as it's done, we're done. We move on. That's why they the whole post nut clarity that we talked about earlier,   where   the   the you know, if you're a good man and you're in a good relationship with your with your woman and she truly loves you and wants   you, she wants you to hang around in bed all day.   She just wants you to just we'll just cuddle and we'll just talk to each other. And and and   that's all that she actually wants, and and   we can make it off nothing and things like that. And you have to be a man and go, listen, baby. I really, really goddamn look at that.  

I   really would like to be   staying there   doing this all day.   If I do, you're not gonna eat tomorrow.   We're not gonna have a home next month. I need to have the discipline   as a man to say no to this and go do what I need to do because I have jobs   as a man that need attended to, and nothing can stop that, including the indulgence of this absolutely   wonderful, blissful time with this beautiful woman.   So this is this was something that, you know, they wanted, and they and they will indulge.   And and   it's wonderful.   And you need to have discipline as a man, but they've somehow re reversed that and made it like men are just gonna have sex all day. And don't get me wrong, there are some dudes out there that got real problems.  

But most guys,   that's something that they think about for about as long as it takes to get the poison out, and then they move on.   So I I I love where it went with strength.   I think, you need to have that strength to stand up to that kind of thing. And, I a 100% agree,   into in the society I grew up in because women are the arbiters of sex,   then they became the arbiters of so much else. And guys just you see all these really weak fish guys that are just like, oh, but the girls like it. Like, when I see these dudes wearing stuff like skinny jeans. Look at look at, like, a little gay boy. You're like,   what the hell are you doing? Oh, the girls like it. Oh, maybe. You know you know what the girls actually like? Men. So quit acting like a bitch,   and you'll find out that that while they said they liked that thing, they like this much better. So,   yeah, it's a good one.  



[00:55:37] allen marcus:

That's strength. Strength is the intensity of a force or a power. It's its potency. If the man   retains his potency,   he retains his strength and power that gets into physical strength, mental strength, emotional strength. How many times do you hear women complaining about weak men everywhere, weak sons, just weakness all around? These are the antidotes to that weakness,   and it is 12 rules for chastity.   He gets into   insurance.   He says life happens   if the relationship falls apart deep into the courtship process.   The point of seeing a woman is to lead towards marriage, that's courtship.  

It says including after meeting each other's friends and families,   it will hurt much less if you remain celibate together. Not to say it won't hurt at all. It certainly will, but it will hurt   less. So in case of a disaster, that small insurance   against unnecessary   pain can be paid dividends along with the words I do or spoken   at the altar.   These are the twelve reasons why a man should think twice before having sex with a woman who isn't   his wife or critiquing these arguments.   He's made 12 points.   Point number 5 is insurance. What say you?  

[00:56:56] John Roeland:

It's kind of an interesting argument.   I don't know that I would make it.   If I was gonna go with a biological   argument, I have an entirely different biological argument that I actually do   would make,   where,   you have a DNA trans a horizontal DNA transfer.   And this applies to both men and women. I understand it's a common trope that women,   actually, their DNA is altered by having unprotected sex with a man or even protected.   But,   it men have an alteration also. So there's a horizontal DNA transfer.   I would make a whole argument along that lines.   This is an interesting one that the chemical hormones that are gonna further the   relationship   or further the attachment   or reserved for somebody that you are only married to. That's an interesting one.  

Just not necessarily one I'd make.  

[00:57:59] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. I'm having a hard time with this one too because,   I guess   I guess I guess what I'm finding interesting about this list is   these are all things that   I've come to realize   even though I have been promiscuous.   So I learned it after the fact.   So I I agree with a lot of what he's saying on this one.   You know, I don't think   the relationship was any harder to leave or,   made it more difficult because   we had I had a sexual relationship with the person.   And I think, again, it's   a statement about where we are in society, where we've all kind of become hardened to it. Well, not all of us, but people who have played the field or been with multiple people,   you do kind of learn to just develop a thick skin and you kind of assume that   a lot of people are having similar experiences,   especially, you know, at the point I'm at, you know, I'm,   gone through a divorce and now remarried and just,   you know, it's   it's a different   it's a different perspective because   we have a strong relationship.  

It's based on different things when you get older,   and, you know,   her her past life doesn't affect   how I feel about her   and vice versa,   I think.   But,   but, again, I think it's because of where we are. I mean, it's just an assumption that   people are sexual and,   you know, the   I don't know what Will Spencer's experience is, but,   ultimately,   like, I've come to the same conclusions that, you know, sex is better when you're in love with somebody.   The relationship is   better if you wait.   And,   so   yeah. I guess, this one, I don't really   connect with too much because that just hasn't been my experience,   like, the sex making it harder to leave the relationship.  

And I and I would say I don't know. Maybe it was different for the woman, but I would I would imagine that it would be somewhat similar.  

[01:00:27] allen marcus:

This idea of insurance brings up, like, a,   financial aspect of things, recognizing marriage as a business agreement, and maybe the idea of, well, now people wanna sign prenups. So they're saying, well, we want this to go well. But if the worst possible thing happens, we wanna have arrangements for how to   get out of this without doing as much damage to each other as possible. This sort of mentality of, well, you know, we look at divorce rates.   We look at all the pop music with all the breakup songs that's already sort of programming   people's minds to accept the fact that, well,   it's more than likely you're gonna see someone fall in love and break up. So that's sort of that cycle that just repeats itself. There's sort of the you meet somebody.  

Yeah. The honeymoon phase. You get to and then you get bored of them, and then you kinda push and pull for a while, and maybe there's a breakup. Maybe it's a big one. Maybe it's small one. I guess this idea of insurance   is hedging your risk to say, well, you know, I don't want her to,   you know, burn my house down   because I've met her parents. I've met her family. They all know who I am. I don't wanna have to move out of town because everybody   well, it's sort of like you're escalating the situation. You're saying, I wanna meet your parents, meet my parents. Let's let's meet families. Let's figure this thing out.   And then if the relationship falls apart through this courtship   process   because you haven't been   intimate   on that level, then it's gonna be easier.  

You know, in   these, purity culture,   youth group meetings,   and in, like, absence only sex based education,   they'll bring the the Oreo cookie,   and there's that,   mixture of whatever toothpaste stuff in the middle, that white pasty stuff. And then they try to split the cookie. And they always do it where it's like, well, sometimes it it or it's all on one side or sometimes it's not evenly distributed. And they kinda say, well, when you you break up, it's gonna be messy and and things aren't gonna be fair. And then they mix the metaphors.   So this whole mindset that,   well, all relationships come to an end and when you get into marriage, it's sort of a till death do you apart thing. But because you haven't gotten to the marriage stage,   you're in the we're trying to get to the marriage stage.  

I feel like this advice is realistic   and it's applying to   all men equally. So now when we're talking about the sexual marketplace   value of men   and women recognizing   that a lot of these men that are labeled as creeps or weirdos or antisocial,   these types of guys   are seeking   marriage   too.   If they are playing the field   and they're on dating apps   to try and find whatever they can get, they're out fishing for whatever will bite, they're gonna have a bad time. I think this document   being that it's for all men equally across all   values,   socio and economic backgrounds, bank accounts, these types of things, that for men   who are not having success already after puberty on the playground from getting female attention,   this document is probably going to be more attractive to them as a viable strategy for finding   a wife who is at their equivalent level   to then say, well,   the goal will be   to have a wife and following these strategies makes me the strong possible man I can be,   and then that will lead to marriage.  

So this insurance thing   is interesting. I don't know why it's the the 5th point,   and wanting to have a family is a noble thing. I think that's a good point. The next point leads to victory,   meaning   the true prize of the honeymoon.   So once you've gotten to the point where   you propose to a woman,   she says yes,   you've had the wedding day, now it's honeymoon night. You get to point 6, which is victory.   This is where they they describe it as god's wedding present. So because physical intimacy is meant to be the capstone   resting upon other forms of intimacy,   mental, emotional, and spiritual intimacy,   ultimate   culminate,   pardon me, the intimacy   of the mental, emotional, and spiritual levels   culminate   in a physical relationship.  

So imagine having sex with a woman you've built genuinely committed relationship with,   and then imagine the fulfillment of discovery to truly know her at last on your wedding night. In a culture that does   intimacy exactly backwards from that vision, success in waiting   is the ultimate cult countercultural   victory. I've heard many other purity   presentations   that lead with this as being point number 1. This is the first thing they talk about. They say raise your hand if you wanna have great sex someday.   No one's raising their hand because they're all feeling awkward. They're not trying to make eye contact with anybody, but they start out with the main point being,   well, when you've saved yourself for marriage or the ultimate gift, when you unite with husband and wife in a honeymoon intimate setting, well, that's God's wedding present. That's the ultimate gift   to each other, that sort of thing.  



[01:05:45] John Roeland:

I think it's a garbage point.   I I I I think this is just hot garbage.   I think I'm I'm to the age now. Don't get me wrong.   My wife have and I have a very vigorous sex life. Very vigorous.   But,   is that the ultimate achievement of it? No.   Honestly, for,   especially as a man,   the ultimate thing that I have with my wife   is trust.   And that, there's some there's a lot of things, especially as a strong man,   that   the world will never see that she is the only person that sees.   Her and, like, maybe my oldest daughter has seen it a couple times, and She even talks about that, and she's like, you know, like, that time I saw dad break down, like, you know, I thought the whole fucking world was ending. Like,   and and to know that,   I'm safe   with her in that   and that she's still gonna love me even though I feel like a failure in that time. Because that's the thing. It's easy enough to love somebody that succeeds.  

Everybody loves the winner.   It does but to know that, you know, that I have fears, that I have problems,   and that she's still going,   yeah,   but we're gonna win anyways.   And because I have faith in you. And that for me is the the true capstone   of of the wedding.   I'm sorry. I you know, because I was not chased as a as a as a young man, actually. I I was fairly chased.   And,   you know, I, my I got divorced.   My wife had an affair.   It   I've I went through a period where, it wasn't good. It was in my late twenties.   And,   in order to mentally survive,   I made a disconnect between sex and love.  

And,   it was you you know? And at the end of the day, and don't get me wrong, I will definitely say that with my wife, it's much better than anything I ever had in that point. But a a good portion of that is the trust.   The the trust is the thing, and that trust even   when I'm 60, 70,   80,   and our sex life isn't vigorous.   And,   it's, oh my god. I got a boner today. Hey, honey. Is it a good time for you too?   Hey. You know? When that when that,   when it comes to that every single day, I'm still gonna enjoy my wife. It's not just gonna be those days. I think it puts a lot of emphasis on the exact wrong thing. Hot garbage point.  

[01:08:32] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. I mean, I I I would imagine if you waited   until you got married, there would be a a certain sense of victory that came with that. So I think that this point   definitely speaks to,   you know, Christians or anybody who is being celibate   until they're married.   But   as you kind of touched on, Marcus, this can also   and has also led to,   you know,   strange behaviors   amongst   young Christian   kids,   teenagers   who are doing other things and saying, well, since it's not, you know, it's not technically sex,   they're kinda finding ways around it, which can, you know, kind of   lead to some   deviancy, I guess, if you wanna call it that.  

But,   yeah. The one one thought I had too, just wanted to add is that,   you know, we talk about all the, you know, psyops and how we've been   conditioned into this with the sexual liberation and everything.   How I wonder how oh, I would think a big part of that is the whole creation of adolescence.   Because you've now created this 4 year time span   where you actually are of age to be able to start, you know, interacting   sexually with others.   And yet now you're in a 4 year concentration camp,   you know, called high school.   And, you know, marriage just seems so far down the road   that at a certain point, I think people just,   you know, they either they just think, well, you know, I mean, I I think for me that was something. Well, I know I'm not gonna wait till I'm 30,   so I might as well get it over with.  

And,   yeah, I just think that,   yeah, it just it just runs so deep   how how how far we've been,   socially engineered   into the situation that we're in. Because again, we kind of deny   adolescents,   or, you know, at least in word sexuality,   and then they're exposed to it through media constantly.   And,   you know, everyone's expected to go to you know, you're gonna go to college and finish high school and go to college, and   adulthood just seems so far away.   So we've kind of infant infantilized   everybody.   If I don't know if I said that right.   But, yeah, everyone is still a kid until they're   25 years old, basically.  



[01:11:14] allen marcus:

Right. So reading the document, getting the 0.6 victory,   reading God's wedding present, I think a lot of people are gonna check out and not read the other 6 points at this point. They're like,   what are you talking about?   And to say that   honeymoon night consummating the wedding is the ultimate victory.   And   if you follow the directions   and you've abstained from sex,   you don't have experience,   and then you're ready to seal the deal,   and then you don't know what to do.   She's waiting for you. It gets awkward. Now you're married to this person,   and then it might be the ultimate letdown   on a wedding night. If you're claiming it to be the ultimate victory,   I like what Balderson's saying that trust,   having   a meaningful relationship with someone who you trust   is a better victory,   a reward of experiencing the victory   of chastity and celibacy   than sex for the sake of sex.  

So if we are dealing with this,   insuldom,   this sort of crisis of   involuntary   celibates,   they read this thing, and it sort of creates this   magnetic repulsion aspect where   they're already in this, environment where they feel like they'll never get sex. Then you tell them that sex is the victory and the prize for for being strong   and waiting.   So then that sort of creates this where they're   where they're pushing it so far away, and it's repulsive to everybody   because   they're treating   a woman   like   the prize. Like, they're looking for a partner to experience   the victory   and then setting up for a big letdown.  

I the point that you make about, well, how long do you have to wait? Well, if you get to puberty and then you're thinking, well, I gotta graduate high school, then I got a great college. That sort   of that time frame   is a very real time frame,   and people think, well, I'm gonna marry when I get older.   There's this whole pushback against   getting married too young.   So for this point to stand in this document, I don't think it strengthens the argument   at all. I think it's a a true thing that needs to be brought up and addressed.   But for this argument, I think it's so far the weakest point and would probably   cause people to not accept   the other 12 rules or points for being strength   being strengthened   in the ability   to resist and to wait to only have sex with your wife. I think it's   not doing this any favors, not helping the argument.  

So then if you make it through the victory   section you get to 7   which talks about compatibility.   So new couples tend to spend a lot of time in the bedroom.   They'll often miss going out into the real world, into real life, and into challenging scenarios together. Compared to an all night sex section, a tough real world decision might not sound appealing, but it's in those moments where a couple is forced to learn how to communicate, cooperate, and solve problems together.   This is relationship building for the long term, establishing a solid foundation   even if it comes at the cost of short   term gratification.  

So learning to communicate, cooperate, and solve problems together   before encountering the,   sexual compatibility   issue. That's like compounding problems.   So this compatibility   point,   is this   a valid argument?  

[01:15:15] John Roeland:

Is that Kenny?   What's up, Kenny?   Also, MS, thank you for the wrap.   I,   I think the argument's valid. I I don't see him   that holding any water with a high school kid or,   anything like that. Like,   you you   know, when you date, you're gonna wanna just bang all night and just,   and and, you know, but you should go do some other things that you're not gonna like near as much because that is way better   in the long one. I don't I don't, you know, I don't disagree, but, I mean, it's just,   I I I'm not sure how,   this doesn't just go with the basic idea of abstinence,   period. You're not really you're just redundant with this. It's not really doing anything. I'm not I I wouldn't have even put this as a point.  



[01:16:14] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. I I agree. I think that this   doesn't really make sense. It actually sounds   it's it's sounding more and more Christian,   and I don't mean that in a negative way. But it's like,   oh, yeah. New new couples, they're just always in the bedroom. Like, nah. That's not really true. Like, if I if you go out with somebody and, like, you go out to dinner, you go to a movie. I mean, when you're first dating somebody, that's when you go do a lot of different things in the real world together.   So this almost sounds like someone who hasn't had any sex and is just, like, oh, yeah. If I start having sex, that's all we're gonna do.   So, I mean, in that sense, you know, it's almost like an argument for premarital sex, but I'm not necessarily saying that. But,   you know, once you're comfortable with your sexuality,   you're not, like, obsessed  

[01:17:08] John Roeland:

when you're dating somebody new. Victory ahead of time. That's all you're gonna do is just just up and up and up. Uh-huh. It looks horrible. Where does that happen again? I don't wanna go near there. Where?  

[01:17:22] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. So, yeah, I I don't I don't like this point.  

[01:17:26] allen marcus:

It mentions the   costs of short term gratification. I think that's a a stronger point. I don't know how,   compatibility   on its own stands as one of these 12 points that is going to   be in favor   of   only having sex with your wife.   8 is consequences.   This is usually where   people start the argument. They say, well, you know, there are consequences,   and then they'll go through the,   most,   obnoxious   and disgusting looking   facts of what happens when you're,   exposed to sexually transmitted   viruses, infections, whatever they are. Measles, mumps, rubella, you know, you didn't get the shots, you didn't get the cutie shot, that type of thing.   Consequences,   well, now they're talking on plan pregnancy. For men,   men don't get pregnant. Right? I I think that's how this works. Men don't get pregnant. So for talking   to men to say   unplanned pregnancy creates an unimaginable pain.  

Yes.   Sure.   Okay.   So I'll read the entire point here. I I don't wanna argue against it before it's been fully addressed.   It reads consequences.   Unplanned pregnancy creates unimaginable pain.   First, there's the cold shock of the discovery.   My girlfriend's pregnant.   Then the terrible decision people face today   whether to commit the sin of abortion,   get married, or try to build a life together,   or for a woman to become a single mother. One of these is far more virtuous   than the others, but none of them are optimal.   Sex isn't just for pleasure. It creates babies.  

Creating life in the bond of marriage makes childbearing   what it's supposed to be, a joy to be celebrated together, not burden to struggle through that dishonor's mother, father, and possibly   even the child. So point number 8, rules for   chastity   states that   consequences   is a good reason to only have sex with your wife.  

[01:19:49] John Roeland:

Boy, I I don't know why you waited till 8 to get to this one.   Boy, there's consequences   for your choices.   Something that we in this society   does its very best to mitigate. They're like, oh, you made bad choices your whole life. Oh, well, we're a welfare state.   We don't actually make people pay the price for their   consequences. We actually   like, my daughter was just talking to me tonight,   and there's all kinds of help that she could get. In fact, she,   her her my granddaughter is in preschool,   and they're wanting I think she said it was, like, $210   a week or something. Fucking insane.  

Yeah. In in South Dakota.   Like, you know, where minimum wage is still like 83¢.   I freaking   it's not. It's, like, 7.50, but still 7.50. What the fuck's that gonna do for you? Buy you a bargain buy you 1 gallon of gas?   Hope you didn't work too far away.   I the,   but she said that they gate they would not help her,   and they told her flat out it's because she was married. So she's   she's living a a right life,   married to the father of her children. You know? All   all the children are with one dad. That's her husband. They have a house. She's, you know,   got a job she's held since,   she was a teenager. I think she was 19 or 20 when she got it.  

So she's done right life. Well, if her and her husband weren't married,   they absolutely had help for her. Even just being livings,   the system was gonna give would give her 8. But being married,   she doesn't get 8.   So the the the system's gotten real weird about it.   But this one is definitely should have gotten   number 1, I think.   It jumps right to abortion   and all that you're gonna have to   convince a world that glorifies   the ability to kill a baby.   As anything   other than killing a baby, you're gonna have to convince them that that's what's going on here, that it's not,   just a collection of cells that have no meaning unless you wanna keep it. And if you wanna keep it, then it's not a collection of sales, which apparently that hypocrisy doesn't stand out for them at all, and they will say it in the same breath,   and feel perfectly okay about saying that shit.  

So   but yeah, definitely consequences.   Hey, guys.   If you go punching out a kid and she's not your wife,   you are gonna have to pay a lot of money every day until that kid   is 18. And with the newer laws,   most likely, like, 22 or 23 whenever they graduate school. If they're gonna go through that,   there's a good chance that that child's going to get used as a tool against you in every way. You're gonna have in your future relationships,   you're gonna have a whole lot of problems because you're gonna have to dance to a tune of this woman in order for you to have a relationship with your child, while this woman   over here is the one you're building a life with who doesn't want you dancing to this woman's tune, and that causes all kinds of problems.  

So this one   and so fucking many ways we could go on for for the rest of   the rest of the show   about all the different ways that this one truly applies.   I don't know that the dishonor of the mother and the father, it it societally happens anymore outside of a or the child outside of the Christian,   domain.   You know? But the the rest of that, yep, that's that's that's the one that should have been number 1.  

[01:24:01] allen marcus:

Yes. This point   has the most   arguments for   and against the the whole the topic itself of the the consequences   of sex leading to   unplanned pregnancies   That could be a whole 2 hour   exploration of the points of the debate, so I don't wanna spend too much time on it tonight yet. I will say that they include the line in the document,   sex isn't just for pleasure. Someone's gonna pause and say,   yeah, but that's the reason I wanna have it. As a man,   not having a child, not thinking, well, I wanna have kids, I wanna be a father,   they're gonna say, well, it is for me, for pleasure.  

So I guess this rule doesn't apply to me, and then maybe the other rules don't apply to me. So maybe the whole idea that waiting   for   a wife to only ever have sex with my wife is just not gonna apply.   This might discredit the whole argument for people who are already   unconvinced.  

[01:25:09] Benjamin Balderson:

I I'm just really surprised that he didn't talk about STDs.   Because to me, that's the bigger I mean, it's not the bigger consequence, but it's almost like   scared. Idiot. It's almost scarier,   you know, to you know, you're gonna have, like you could potentially have a lifelong disease or   whatever it   might   be. Just kind of strange that that wasn't included in this.   And again, I mean, you know, again, it just   I thought that the idea of this was to, like, leave religion out, but,   he definitely did not leave religion out.   And again, not that abortion is necessarily just a religious issue, but,  

[01:25:52] John Roeland:

it's, you know Not just that abortion. I feel like the dishonor   thing point that he made inside here also is a 100%,   Christian. And then even the sex, is it just for pleasure?   That almost brings to mind the the Catholic or, you know, the you only have sex when you're gonna have a baby type thing. Like,   no. You know, my wife has her tubes tied. We didn't quit having sex.  

[01:26:17] Benjamin Balderson:

I   Exactly.   Yeah. So I would just I think consequences is a good thing to talk about. I just think STD should be   very much highlighted on that. Point  

[01:26:31] allen marcus:

8 being consequences.   Agreed with the idea of consequences. The text   explaining the point   seemed to weaken the point rather than strengthen it.   Yeah.   Number 9 being uniqueness.   Okay.   It reads, let's be honest, most desirable men out there are trying to get laid. That is the dominant cultural value and has been for decades.   Being a desirable man who is not trying to have sex with a woman, you set yourself apart right away.   You proclaim boldly to women in the world, I take you, myself, and my future seriously.   I'm not interested in throwing away my potential for a night or more of fun.  

I am worth more than that and am interested in building something of value together.   Not all women will desire this. The right one will   Being unique   is an antidote   for weakness. Points   number 9.  

[01:27:29] John Roeland:

I'm probably the most well done point that he's made.   You know?   I 100 percent   you know,   you   you want to have   a good woman   that you can trust.   And that we're   that is highly desirable to have children with,   because you know that she's gonna instill the values that you want because she carries them and shows the things that you want,   then definitely,   you need   to not just be the village bicycle to your damn self.   You you want somebody that's like, like we were talking about at the beginning. You don't want the hoe. You want this badass girl who's who's worth your damn time. Well, my times were something too, and my thing's special too. Yours is just special.   Like, I promise.  

Cheney there, she was in the chat earlier. I don't know if she's still in there. What's up, Gordy?   But sent me a video, and I already knew this. When I when I got my bowl and let it loosen the cows, and we bought a permanent bowl that's, you know, we keep on the farm.   People put on the videos, like, why the bull why the boys so aggressive? You know, why they pushing her around like that? I was like, no. That's that that's the bull that's getting pushed around there. The girls, they all flock like, oh, here's the day.   Yeah. You know, when the when,   when you're the man,   they come screaming for it. And and that shit is you are you are worth the gold. Don't go giving it away and spreading it out and diluting it.  

Love this point.  

[01:29:13] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. It's kind of like not having a tattoo is rebellious now. Right? It's like or it's like counterculture. Right? It's like like, I see my my teens,   you know, they go through their their, you know, their self expression, and, honestly, everything's been done.   There's not really anything else that you could do to shock us that we haven't seen already. So, yeah. At this point,   you do stand out if you're a person who is waiting. And, you know, this is going to set up a situation where   this is a certain person   who's looking for another   person that has those same values.  

So,   this will work well if you are in that situation.   So,   yeah, I think it's a it's a pretty good point.  

[01:30:07] allen marcus:

Uniqueness   so far being the best point that we've gotten on this document.   Number 9, I think maybe the   way to,   explain this to people is it's your reputation precedes you.   If people   talk behind your back saying, well, he's a fuck boy.   Well, once a fuck boy, always a fuck boy. This this sort of uniqueness to say, well, I'm more than just my   desire to get laid from anything that'll give me any attention.   That really does set you apart, makes you not desperate,   that sort of thing. Probably,   bump that up on the list and talk about it sooner rather than later. Don't wait till point number 9 in the argument if you already lost people.   Number 10 is a bit of a weird one. I'm scratching my head already. It reads   continents   before I make   incontinence jokes or talk about Kegel strength. I'm just gonna read what I was already in my head going there too.  

So we have to read the argument on the page   and address it directly. It's a bit of a challenge when the word is continents and people are already giggling.   Okay.   Here we go.   Life for a single woman is like walking around a harbor,   seeking a ship to take her on an ocean   crossing adventure ocean crossing adventure.   At the harbor, many sailors are working on their boats,   equipping their vessels for the long difficult voyage.   Because life sends storms, waves, and giant sea creatures from the deep, a captain must be prepared.   But when a woman meets a sailor and he diverts energy from his ship building and preparation to sex with her instead,   he gives her his strength to her   rather than to his life. Did I read that correctly? He says in italics,   he gives his strength   to her rather than to his life. Okay. Continence.  

It continues.   She may depart before setting sail, but he will still have his voyage to take. As captains of our lives, our strength must be given to ourselves. 1st, to build the strongest, safest, and most seaworthy vessel that we can before setting sail. If a woman wants to join us on that lifelong journey, she is welcome too, but that's when she gets the benefit our of our strength,   not before.   So the definition of continents in this instance is an uninterrupted course   or a continuity.  

[01:32:39] John Roeland:

Lusty women ain't taking my mojo.   Only the good one gets it.   Musty horse.   They don't get it.  

[01:32:57] Benjamin Balderson:

This is a this is a terrible point   just because,   it's too confusing   the way he's describing it.   And it also   implies that you have some type of   some type of moral   compass   as a young person that, like, your whole goal is to   build a great life and   have a family. And   and I just   I mean, we're not we're not in that world anymore,   in general. I mean   so, yeah, I just I'll just say that   I don't agree with this point. I I would have left it out.  

[01:33:42] John Roeland:

I mean,   if he entirely reworded it, I mean, the if you   get through slug through that weird story   where it basically is like,   single girls   are just hovers of penis,   and they are just   trying to suck in   your masculine   goodness.   And then they just gonna leave you high and dry.   If it was   goddamn.   I can't.   It's on you, Marcus.  

[01:34:17] allen marcus:

Oh, it's it's a mess because   continents, anyone who studied for the SAT or ACT or just basic vocabulary is immediately gonna think of the, you know, the voluntary control of urination and defecation. So you don't wanna be thinking of, you know, marriage   and scat play and   golden showers and prostate health   at this point. I think the   the word choice,   terrible.   It it'll elicit giggles and or confusion and probably both at the same time.   The   story about being the ship captain, making sure you've got a a seaworthy vessel   to invite the woman on to sail the seas together. You know, that's beautiful.  

Real real schmaltzy, real nice. That's great.   But the point is buried in the text, the title, the keyword continents,   it's not working here.   Weak, weak argument.   Do we have any great jokes in the chat before we continue on? I'm sure there's a lot  

[01:35:25] John Roeland:

of giggles and humor. You know, if you wanna make At at halfway, it almost would be more like a premature   ejaculation when you're you and you're tying continents   to   to to ejaculation.   Like, wouldn't that be more like, you know, you're just walking along doing nothing? Because that's what incontinence is with your bowels and your penis. She's just walking along.   Oh,   oh, god. Oh,  

[01:35:52] allen marcus:

hey. Yeah. You know what happens, sir? Was there a lonely island sketch about that? Oh, yeah.  

[01:35:58] Benjamin Balderson:

Jizzed in my pants.  

[01:36:01] allen marcus:

Sure. And and that's   not what this point is about,   and yet it's become about that because of the word continents. Yeah. Yeah. Not well thought out.  

[01:36:12] Benjamin Balderson:

Hey. The other, it reminded me the other day I gave a a Uber Lyft to   a a passenger who just got out of college, and I asked him what his degree was, and he said, ceramics.   And he wasn't kidding, man. I'm like,   that kid has no idea what he wants to do with his life. Like, that guy's he's not planning, like, his legacy and everything. Like, anyway, he's probably, what, 22, if not older.   You know? I mean, I couldn't believe when he actually was serious and said ceramic's not and then I kinda pushed him on it. Like, would you have any plans to, like, to, like, continue doing ceramics? And,   no. Because then I'd have to buy a kiln and   so, anyway, I thought I thought sociology was bad, but, yeah, ceramics. I mean It's the associate. I'm sure every every manager of McDonald's someday.  

Yeah. The guy's salesman is getting into.  

[01:37:03] allen marcus:

If he tells you he's into ceramics and you're thinking, well, you make you make pottery, does is that a code word for   being a pothead? It it's confusing. It it doesn't deliver the point. It's not great. Yeah.  

[01:37:17] John Roeland:

If I make friends with you, are you gonna try and give me a really shitty looking ashtray and I'm gonna have to be like,  

[01:37:23] Benjamin Balderson:

thanks.  

[01:37:29] allen marcus:

Alright.   Okay. Well, this is getting weird. We're on point 10. The point   is,   oh, 11. We're almost through it.   10 was continents.   11 is dedication.   Alright. Dedication is   being devoted, loyal,   conscientious.   It reads word for word,   chastity before marriage   pressures you to be serious about marriage.   If you want to experience one of God's great blessings,   sex and sexuality,   then chastity forces you to pay the price to have it. If the price seems high,   know that it's the same price that men throughout history paid. They understood   that sex was earned.  

They weren't entitled to it.   And since the price they paid was a lifelong one, they made sure to pay it wisely. The desire to pay a wise price   for a great bride,   one who he could be satisfied with inside the bedroom and out,   force a man to become the best man he could be.   You should think the same.   Point number 11,   dedication.   Twelve rules for chastity. I  

[01:38:46] John Roeland:

I I think I gotta go back with John's point on a couple of these that he went super Christian again.   It seems like he he made it through, like, 3 or 4 and then couldn't help himself. He's like, oh, I gotta get super Christian here. I don't see where you're gonna   you know, honestly, one of the better points that they're gonna make about chastity before marriage,   is   what happens if after marriage, you get there and you aren't that impressed with the great prize.   It didn't, you know, you're not that compatible in that, you know, fashion.   And that does happen. Now while   on the guy's side, I think it's less likely. I mean, I you know, there's certainly,   it certainly happens. It's less likely for, I think, most guys. It's like pizza. You know? It's it's,   if it's good, if it's good, if it's bad, yeah, it's still good. I'll I'll still eat it. You know? Like, I can, and I think that's where most guys stand with that part of it.  

All around,   just a very preachy point.   I'm not you know, I don't disagree with it, but   I'm not disagreeing with it from the vantage point that I'm at   being   grandparent to 8 kids,   being an older wiser person that's been through life.   Yeah. You know, I've come to these conclusions myself.   So it's a preaching to the choir situation. You can throw something like that that at me, and I can,   you know, say, yeah. I see the value in it, but to try and point this is at a kid, you just sound like a pre a preachy weird shit.   Yeah. I I I think it's a pretty bad point to make for a against a young man for sure. Pay for a bride. No. Thanks.  

That's hilarious.   The desire to pay   pay a wise price for a great bride.   You know? That yeah. That that that's pretty damn funny.   But,   I I think the better point is just   that you, you know, the more of the high value man type thing that   if you maybe   went back to   that you were more of a high value man and to try and convince the young men   of the understanding that a lot of ladies in the chat have shown   that you are much more desirable as a man if you've not went and slept around.   And then that gives you the better chance of finding the better woman who is gonna be the loyal, trustworthy,   amazing wife that you're gonna build a life with,   that your odds of getting that woman   increase greatly   if you do this.  

I I think the preachy stuff he's doing here is pretty nonsense.  

[01:41:52] Benjamin Balderson:

It's reminding me, I think it was a George Carlin bit where he was talking about the 10 commandments could be broken down to, like, 3 rules   and, something like that.   But, I mean, discipline,   victory,   dedication,   it seems like he's repeating himself.   It's   they're all kind of similar principles,   and it's for the same purpose of having this payoff at   the end,   that that he seems to think is the height of   spirituality   on some level, I guess, he's kind of saying. So, yeah, I would just say it's repetitive   and unnecessary, and you could have made the list a bit shorter.  

[01:42:36] allen marcus:

So   we're not   disagreeing with the point. It's it is a weak point. It seems to be repeating   other points   Having to have 12 rules for chastity and then just sort of losing steam and petering out at the end of the argument is not a great way to slam dunk.   And in debating in the red pill manosphere where   they aren't   religious. They're not   moral or ethical.   They're teaching   men how to play   in this gray area where women's liberation   has allowed women   to play the field   equal to men   without   consequences,   guilt, or shame.   Our author here with his 12 rules for chastity,   bringing this argument   to the manosphere   will probably get laughed out   of the manosphere   by bringing the religious point.  

He makes a lot of great points. He wants strong men. He's trying to say that   red pill,   Venusian arts game gamers who play the game of trying to have as much sexual experiences as possible   without the intention of marriage and then maybe someday getting married is creating weak men. I think that's a valid   argument. Now with these 12 rules for chastity,   they need to be the strongest possible rules   in this atmosphere   where   sex is so freely available.   To say   don't have sex, Other men who have it available to them   are going to feel like they're missing out or won't have things to talk about.  

So then having to closer yourself   in, men's Bible study or   some sort of accountability   group   with men who share these values   will be, a cloistering, claustrophobic,   weird experience for   men of any age   needing to be   in the workplace and talking to men of   all cultures, nationalities,   values, and these types of things.   And then to say   or it's revealed somehow that you're planning to save yourself for marriage,   and then you're 21, 31, 41, 5161,   it becomes sort of   this joke. And now the dedication   aspect is   something that you're following   and you're really buying into this document to say it's it's a really great document. This is how I want to live, and now you're dedicated to marriage.  

When you're on a date with a woman, does it become like an interview   where you're letting her know that it's not really about her. It's about the position you're trying to fill, which is wife.   So now you've removed the human aspect.   The beginning of the document, it wants to say that   it's not about body counts.   Every man and every woman has a has a soul. They have a heart. They have emotions, this type of thing. Now to to get to the end of the document and then realize that it's about marriage   and not about the person   might confuse the message and misplace the focus   of the good intentions   of this document.  



[01:46:04] John Roeland:

And if you switch over to a   deliberating   dog face dudes, Gordy, that's where I think, most of the people are chatting.   There's definitely other people chatting. I can't tell which room they're in. We're streaming to,   Natural Freedom League and Odin's Alchemy and Delivering Dog Face Dudes.   Just to get at   the idea out to everybody, and then at some point, the we're only gonna be on the deliberating dog faced dudes.   And, at some point, we'll be   Marcus, John, and I will be   visiting other channels and have another channels visit us to debate some of these topics.   But,   for right at the moment, we're just fleshing out our own ideas   on these things.  

But, yeah, go ahead.  

[01:46:59] allen marcus:

Yeah. Thank you for taking care of the housekeeping.   These   playbacks are gonna be so important, and we want to sort of limit the the meta discussions.   We want these to be evergreen topics and for people to see what we're talking about to then invite us on to their debate platforms to do swap gas, that type of thing.   So we've got to the 12 point in bold. It reads commitment. There's a huge paragraph here.   Let me swallow my spit.   Take a breath and stay in it for the long haul. Commitment.   Our author,   Will Spencer, who we'd love to engage with. We love this document.   Let's talk sometime. Let's do a swap gas. Point 12,   commitment.  

Commitment   free sex is mere entertainment.   If a woman fails to satisfy a man   or a man fails to satisfy a woman, they can discard each other and find someone   else more in quotes fun   as easily as changing a TV channel.   This puts enormous pressure on both partners to be as sexually dynamic as possible. Meanwhile,   the more emotionally invested partner   in in,   parentheses here, typically the woman   is forced to be the best he's ever had out of fear of abandonment.   As a result, the partners never bond because they never open up. The risk is too high. But sadly,   performative sex will always always get boring.  

Eventually, you run out of weird tricks   and positions to try and be confronted with each other's naked humanity.   That's where we encounter the sacred desire for every   that we encounter the sacred desire every human feels to be loved,   accepted, and cared for.   Only by entering that space, carrying the promise of mutual lifelong commitment can we find the true joy of sex. That's when a man and woman stop being performers and become people.   The final point   in rule 12 rules for chastity and an antidote to weakness is   commitment.  



[01:49:20] John Roeland:

I you   know, he just really, really petered out and got real preachy. And it's it's really interesting because his first so many points are fairly succinct.   And   while,   while   where the way you agreed with them or didn't or thought they were valid, they were succinct,   you know, something you put well. And   this is a fucking sermon.   You know?   It's   kinky sex is is gonna get boring. It's it's you know, that's it's   you got real weird on your on your   arguments here. And again, some of these things I'm not saying that I don't agree with. I just   don't necessarily know that that's a point I would make it all.  

Just   indefinitely a weird point to try and to make to a young person. You know what?   If you start having kinky sex now,   you know,   and then what is what is this nonsense with the girls? Like, what? You're just like, if you won't take it, your butt,   she will.   If that girl's worth a damn, then she then number 1,   are you only after freaky sex? Like,   is that what you're after?   What what is even going on here? And then if that girl has any self respect, she's gonna be like, yeah. Feel free to kick rocks, douche. Like,   you know, there are certain things that,   you treat your wife with a decency, and if that's the kind of shit you wanna do to her, like, you know, them jokes, like, when you're in high school about the rusty nail and pulling it out of her butt and smacking her in the face. Like, you'd never do that kind of thing to your wife. You love her and respect her. Like,   I I don't I I just don't even freaking understand where this guy's he just got real morally preachy   from a Christian perspective and quit making   decent points at all.  

And and I do agree sex is worthless without trust and true in   his in into intimacy.   I I do agree, but just not, you know, you're talking to a young person. This is the way he puts this.   This is at least the weird story about the the girls walking along the harbor trying to get humped by all the men and then sending them off and keeping their strength. At least that was funny.  

[01:51:55] Benjamin Balderson:

I think,   I think, yeah, I think he's way off on this one. I mean, I do think, like, what I had said earlier about   remembering as a kid, someone saying if you're promiscuous, it'll be harder to have a meaningful relationship at a certain point. I think that there is some truth to that so it can affect commitment there. But this whole idea   of feeling like you have to be kinkier   or more sexually dynamic,   that hasn't been my experience.   And,   honestly, like, I I do agree that the best sex I've ever had is with someone   that I'm in love with.  

But   to me, like, I've had experiences with women that I don't consider, like, completely meaningless,   you know, as long as we were being honest with each other, if we were in a relationship at the time,   being respectful of each other.   So this does   start leaning a lot more towards   Christian values and,   obviously, it's about chastity. But,   you know, I remember,   s b Alger on, weaving spiders a few weeks ago said, it depends.   You know? So this guy is sort of making a blanket statement, like, this is how it is for everybody,   but it's not. It's it's it's very   dependent on where you're at, how you feel about your sexuality,   you know, how how   experimental you are just naturally.  

So there's a lot more that goes into that. So   I do think commitment   in terms of especially for men.   In terms of men, like, if you're with multiple people,   then   that habit   may be hard to break   even just mentally.   But,   then again, I think if you on the other side, if you were refraining your whole life or restraining your whole life, you might, you know, like you said, Marcus, like, get into some type of,   you know, dominatrix type situation or being a sub. And,   so, yeah, I just think he's sort of making a blanket statement and kind of acting like an expert on sexuality,   and I just don't   have the same experience. So,   kind of agree with the word,   but the way that he was explaining it   just got kind of muddled.  



[01:54:26] allen marcus:

At 12   rules and then the 12th rule here, the point being commitment.   Maybe that should be a lot higher on the list, and then the text describing what he means by commitment   could be   sharpened and clarified   if we are   attacking his argument to find where it's weak   for the purpose of strengthening it because we are in agreement with   the majority of what this document   is talking about,   then we get to a point where he   mentions   the the more   emotionally invested partner   typically being a woman, and that's a huge   assumption.   And if this is a document for men and a man who has been emotionally   wrecked by women   reads this, and then he says, well,   the woman is typically more invested,   but that's not the reality the man reading the document finds,   then the argument is completely lost on him because he says, in my experience,   I was   the most emotionally invested in every relationship I've ever been in. And all I've ever found are cold   calculating women   who   would just leave and ghost me   for no reason at all and not explain why they didn't return the call.  

So for the purpose of tightening   the argument,   strengthening   the points,   These types of   openings   are going to just destroy   the argument.   We want to see you start   with good points and then end on even better points   and not to end on   well, now I you know, at first, I started reading it. I agreed.   Now I'm back to an ambivalent sort   of, I could go either way point,   shows that this   document could certainly be   rewritten,   strengthened,   and improved upon   for the sake of argument.   Now he goes on to say he provided these twelve reasons,   and   if you have a conscience and heart and your spine are intact, at least one of them will resonate.  

I think what we're doing here   is debating the issues   and finding the best   argument   for   the topic at hand.   So in that case,   every   point,   every rule, every bullet point in the argument   should resonate   and   be stronger   than the counterargument.  

[01:57:20] John Roeland:

And I certainly don't feel like he achieved it. I I really don't.   I feel like,   if you're already preaching to a choir   that they would cheer for this, you know, and they would all sit around and look at each other very sagely and   talk about how wise they were.   And, out in the rest of the world, I don't think most of this is having any bite.   I don't think he's done a good job.   On on a side note,   Lindsay over here, love is what you do regardless of how you feel. That might be the best definition I've ever seen of love. And,   I I really enjoy that.  

Like myself, and I try and describe this to people because, people talk about love and they think they equate to this good feeling and everything.   And I talk about, you know, like, when I'm going around and taking care of the farm and being dutiful is one of the biggest things as a man.   You know, when, when you don't feel good, you do what you gotta do to take care of the the   things that you   yourself   have, committed   yourself to. The the animals, the children,   your wife,   your commitments,   they don't stop no matter what because that's,   that's what you love is those things. And no matter whether my back's hurting and I'm out there slugging through shit, pitching it over my shoulder, or in the middle of a storm out there taking care of animals to a shelter collapsed   or whatever has to happen. And a lot of those things, I don't like doing them at all.  

It really sucks.   And   because,   I truly love these other things, I go out there and do them anyways.   So   I really I really enjoy that that the way that that was put, I think that that is probably one of the most,   reality based   definitions I've ever, seen.   Enjoyed it. I think this document   if you were gonna give this to   average kid in high school,   not in a Christian school,   it's gonna hold about as much water as, you know,   as a colander   that's,   not gonna do real good. I don't think he made very good arguments. I think if you were already predisposed to Christianity, it's gonna I like this. But if you if your conscious heart and spine are intact,   at least one of them will. I like at the end of it, how he, like, throws that calling your manhood into question.  

It's   pretty good stuff right there.   But, yeah, all around, not impressed. And I and the worst part is is I come into this   agreeing with the sentiment.  

[02:00:10] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. I would say that   I appreciate the effort   that he put forward and the fact that he's trying to deal with this issue.   And   I am understanding more and more   why Ben wanted to start this project   because   these are things that I've thought about. How do we how do we teach healthy sexuality   to to children to so that they're not as screwed up as they are in this world that's filled with,   you know, pornography   and constant sexuality.   And again, I think a solution for me is that these are values that you wanna teach outside of sexuality.   It doesn't need to be framed only around sexuality. These are life skills   that should be applied to your life,   you know, prior to you thinking about sexuality or getting, you know, sexually active.  

So   I think it's a good for me, it's a good jumping off point to see   the mindset,   and I appreciate the effort of what they're trying to do.   But this is obviously very specifically from   a Christian standpoint,   which   you could partially argue   that that is part of why there was a reaction,   you know. And again, I believe in all the social engineering that happened as well.   But it's like,   did women want sexual liberation   because men   were cheating?   And and because, you know, men's sexuality was different, and then so women were like, well, I wanna be able to do that too. Or was that idea put in their head?   But, anyway, I again, I just appreciate   the effort that he made. It's a good jumping off point for us   to see,   the different ideas that are going on in this in this realm.  

And,   again, I just think that these are things that need to be taught as   life skills, not just about sex.  

[02:02:23] allen marcus:

Yeah. Fully agree with that.   And reading through the document, I don't know if we found any logical fallacies that we wanna address.   I think right now in my mind   thinking about   the author, the guy who wrote the points.   We're not attacking the man.   We're critiquing   the message. We're critiquing   the argument. We seem to be in agreement   with the argument.   And then when we meet the man, are we gonna have things in common to talk about? Are we coming from an evangelical Christian   point of view? If this document ends in a way that leads to a salvation message   and it seems to be selling the idea of biblical sexuality and marriage in a Pentecostal church or something to that effect. I think it weakens the argument. I think that's a different argument,   having, apologetic   Theosophical religious debate for the existence of God or evil   or merit, that's a that's a separate thing.  

This argument   is against weakness in men.   We agree that men on whole are   suffering from this sort of weakness in culture. We are agreeing with these points.   The way they're worded   is   weak in and of itself.   So with love for our brother Will here, we want to strengthen this argument. We want to engage with you. You've got a lot of great research. You've got a lot of great points, a lot of great anecdotes.   Not attacking   the man. We're respecting the man highly enough to acknowledge   he's put out an argument. And from there,   we're attacking the argument where it can be attacked because there are weak points of entry. So with that said,   wanting to strengthen the argument,   wanting to   debate further. I know that we have some folks in chat leaving comments wondering why they're not seeing other chats.  

We're streaming to 3 different places tonight. What are our plans for next week?   Are we closing down? Do we have more to talk about? What do you guys think?   Check your mute.  

[02:04:37] John Roeland:

We could banter for just a little bit on the overall. I'm I'm good at I'm I'm still good to go for a few for a little bit.   The   you know, just to make our own more of our own points on this   if if if   if we wanted to chime in on it with our own points.   Again, yeah, respect where this guy's coming from. You know, not gonna fight another guy on the same team that, you know, with a value that I respect, but I don't think   I don't think it was good. And then,   you know, at the end of it, he starts talking about Paul and everything else, and you're you're you're supposed to be trying to talk to non Christians and make the case to them, and that just did not happen   at all.  

I you need to strengthen your case on   that   the chaste men   are more desirable   for a good woman.   Now   understanding that you   could still easily catch the the ones that are are are the easy girls that you know? But those   you've gotta understand that at some point in time,   you're gonna wanna settle down. I understand that that might not be today. Maybe you're thinking in your young man head   that,   I'm I'm never gonna get married. I don't I'm just gonna play the field for my whole life, but that's just not the case.   Eventually, and this is very funny because this cut goes back into what Marcus was saying where they he put this assumption that,   sexual sexuality   is more emotional for the woman.  

And the my thing was,   when where I talked about trust,   those two things go together heavily.   And so,   Samson and Delilah style,   if you're gonna look at biblical,   those women, when you take them them kinda dirty women, they're able to get in there and do just all the wrong things to you.   And,   the good ones, when you've been around like that, they don't want you.   One of my big points for, not being a runaround   is, Yarl Hakan.   Now Yarl Hakan was a folk legend,   is a folk legend. And during the time of Christianization,   he held out and heathens were allowed to be in his country without being   Yarl Hakan was well loved by his people.  

He also   liked to date some of the noble girls,   and then not necessarily have the intention of marrying them.   And then thus devaluing the girls.   Now the thing that they don't a lot of people don't point out is then that devalued Yarl Hakan.   And so then the people in of themselves,   quit trusting him as a leader, and it had nothing to do with his actual skills as a leader.   It had to do with   his lack of morality and his lack of integrity with women.   And he ended up getting overthrown   only on that reason. There's not another fucking reason given   why this guy was removed from his position of power. And in fact, the guy that came behind him who pushed that,   was a horrifying leader,   but didn't matter.  

And so   the fact is is you do devalue yourself   a 100%. And if you want that good girl, the one that you can truly trust, the one that you can open up to and you know is not gonna   cut off your hair and take away your strength, not gonna devalue you, who's gonna help you build this empire you wanna build instead of destroying it while you're building it,   then you gotta be the man worth that chick.   And that's the true takeaway.   If you aren't worth it, why does that chick want you?   So   that's really where I would've went with it with these kids, and that that is where I stand with it. That every time   you touch somebody, transfer fluids,   that you're taking in part of them, they're taking in part of you. You're not this whole pure man   that a real good woman's gonna want like that. And I understand that we've lived in this day and age, and like John and I have talked about, we both went through our promiscuous   periods.  

And   this isn't being hypocritical because this isn't judging the people who are already at this point.   The   this is just a discussion and an understanding that the way forward for our society   to become a better society.   This wasn't it.   We need to get rid of this. And   we already went through this and have have learned the penalties for it. And we're not trying to stop young people from also,   experiencing things,   but   definitely trying to help them not take the wrong path.   And there's there's just no coming back from it a lot of times. I'm lucky   and just blessed that I have this wonderful relationship with a wonderful woman, and I did come back from it, but that's not typically gonna be the case.  



[02:10:12] Benjamin Balderson:

I would say,   in terms of logical fallacies,   I mean, I think appeal to emotion   is a big one, especially I mean, I'm just looking at the commitment one.   I just feel like, you know, if a woman fails to satisfy a man or a man fails to satisfy a woman, they can discard each other and find someone else more fun as easily as changing the TV channel.   It's like,   it it depends.   You know? Like,   it's not always like that. And so, yeah, he's very he's really,   like Benjamin was saying, he's getting real preachy there. And,   and,   so, I mean, I I would say that, you know,   like,   I I really do think you could make this list   without   having any religion   involved in it, you know, just,   you know but again, it's it is it is a spiritual   idea.  

It is physical as well,   but it's all it's also spiritual, mental.   So but, yeah, obviously, that's where he's coming from. So,   I don't hate on it. You know? I mean, he's   obviously trying to   he's trying to help,   and he just has his certain perspective that's gonna be limited to people. And in some cases,   maybe what contributed to   the so called sexual liberation.  

[02:11:46] allen marcus:

Yeah. Wrapping this up in my own   thoughts,   having grown up in a purity culture   and seeing   men just a few years ahead of me   making these mistakes   really caused me to slow down   and be much more cautious seeing   cousins and family members and and men from my private Christian college,   you know, getting that MRS degree. Well, the wife gets the MRS degree. She takes a semester or 2 at a private Christian college to find a high value man, and then she doesn't have to take any more classes.   That set type of thing. I think that's also predatory.   So   I'm not trying to introduce more arguments   for   this topic   of waiting   for marriage   to have sex.  

There is so much more at play here. There are many more arguments to address   in terms of creating   a better list of   rules   for men   to accept chastity   and to live   a celibate life   with the purpose   of meeting women to lead to courtship,   to lead to marriage, to lead to family.   Those are noble things.   That argument is hard to be made in a climate   where   so few people surrounding   men and women   are supportive   of the institution   of marriage   in and of itself.   So the argument for marriage is a hard one to make in this day and age. The argument to remain celibate   is difficult to make when   the buzzword now is incel, this involved involuntary   celibate thing seems to be worse than any other plagues that have spread, you know, 4 years ago. This type of lonely men. And then the whole idea of MGTOW where men just give up   on women entirely. There's women that do the same thing   where they just don't even date men. They don't really wanna do that, but they see the environment, they see   what the culture is, and they just   it's not for them. It doesn't work in their favor so they avoid it altogether,   making everyone   weak and miserable and unhappy. I think that's the purpose of why things are the way they are. We could get into   that as a topic   later.  

Keeping on track here with this 12 rules for chastity,   how to make stronger men. There are better points.   I think the strongest point   at this point   in my mind   with very little reflection   would be this trust and commitment thing, the ride or die partner, the life partner thing, ride or die, trust and commitment   is a much   harder to obtain   situation   than any sort of flirtation   or intimacy   or playing around.   So   with that said,   the solution to insultum   and MGTOW   in the war of the sexes   is to recognize   hierarchies of needs. Maslow's hierarchy needs this sort of loneliness   epidemic that everyone seems to be experiencing. We have social media everywhere. We have instant communication anywhere on the   anywhere, anybody, anywhere, anytime.  

And yet the numbers of loneliness   self reported loneliness epidemic is higher than it's ever been. So then if you think the action   to to alleviate loneliness is to have more friends, multiple friends, multiple women,   multiple plates.   This is the terminology of the game. The pickup artist, they say, well, you know, one woman will fail you, but if you have 3 or 4 redundant women, then you can just go to the one that's   having a good day and talk with her and date her and then, you know, spin the other plate if she's, you know, it's that time of the month for her mother in law's and tell something to that effect. Go to the next woman. Don't talk to the other woman. That's just gonna be the worst   situation   for a man having to deal with multiple women, none of which   the man sees as marriage   material,   which is gonna get him so far off track from the goal of marriage if that's the goal.  

So with marriage being a noble pursuit for man,   creating the highest value in the man,   attracting the highest value woman,   leading to marriage, that's a noble goal. We agree with all these points. We think the argument can be strengthened.   Moving forward, I think other topics will   be in general just common pitfalls   that men fall into.   I think last week, we talked about governance   and taxes   and abortion and these types of things, and people were wanting to argue about taxes and   abortion and all these things.   Focusing   on   actionable   things that men can do today   is going to probably bear the the the most fruit and lead us further in our purpose for   being the delivering dog face   dudes.  

Sex before   marriage   leading to divorce   and then child support payments and garnish wages. That's a huge thing. So I'm glad we're talking about that. There's probably more we can say   about that.   As far as leading to other debates, maybe we'll get some comments, emails, this type of thing from from other listeners who are   listening to playback. I don't know that being here live is going to make everyone's schedule. How are we feeling about Tuesday nights? It's maybe open up to feedback a little bit at this point and see how how we doing. We're about 2 hours, 15 minutes into this.  

[02:17:55] John Roeland:

I'm really happy about it. I I think, I think that's working out good.   I'm I'm real excited about the shows. Cheaters, always will cheat again.   You know, I mean, you know, that's not a 100%, but mostly   Yeah. It's, you know, you that's why you gotta pay attention to actions.   And,   yeah, I'm super happy about this. I think,   it has been a great show, and, I appreciate you guys.   And I think next week we go through the,   red pill, which is kind of the opposite   side of this kind of thing.   I think,   Marcus really nailed the part of it on the head there   where the social consequences, the actual   things that   you being a a a loose person is gonna cost you and your inabilities to have fulfill your dreams in the future because of it and your inability to have a partner that you can trust that'll help you fulfill those. That's that's just such a big thing.  

And,   yeah.   And thanks to everybody in the chat. It's been an awesome chat. You guys are great.  

[02:19:04] Benjamin Balderson:

Yeah. Thanks everybody.   And,   thank you,   Marcus, and thank you,   Benjamin.   Anybody else anyway, you wanna say anything else before we end the stream?  

[02:19:19] allen marcus:

Don't wanna open any more cans of worms.  

[02:19:23] John Roeland:

Trying to stay on topic and adjust That's the whole thing. It's just exactly   There's a few things I'd like to start in on, but they're gonna then then it's gonna be 3 hours real quick. Well, let's let's finish up with some, housekeeping stuff.  

[02:19:37] Benjamin Balderson:

Go to go to deliberating dogface dudes on YouTube.   Hopefully, we will expand to other platforms.   Definitely, we will.   But go give us a subscription over there. We'd like to just livestream there   starting next week.   So, yeah, hit us up there,   and we're gonna build that channel up and then start up on some other platforms.   And, feel free to comment on any ideas, or if you're interested in joining us on a topic,   just hit us up. We we want that interaction for sure.  

[02:20:12] allen marcus:

Yeah. And these interactions   can occur   moving forward at all times. When you get thoughts, send us emails   and leave some comments and that sort of thing.   Don't have to be here on Tuesday night for the full thing. People have schedules, workdays, school, whatever it is. This is convenient for us to record.   We want you to be able to play these back. I think we're going to have the audio put out in podcast form so you can sit and listen to it and play it back. Sitting in front of a computer,   there's already enough live streams, that sort of thing.   Don't wanna put more in your queue. Whoever you are listening, we appreciate your time and attention.  

Probably move   into talking about value for value.   We've got a little bit of our rep put together. We want   men to contribute to time, talent, treasure, women.   Are we including women in this, or is this just a men's only club?  

[02:21:06] John Roeland:

For coming in for the debates?   For being on screen, for being in chat. Is this the men's only thing? Gonna be women in there.   The 100% that, some of these I   I I, you know, I expect to probably a good half of who we bring on or debate because   we don't wanted us to be a a, you know, preaching to the choir situation where we're in an echo chamber. We need to have people with   different ideas.   And what was it that you were saying earlier, honey?   What was it that you said when we were on there?   Oh, he was talking about men's emotional attachment. I was just saying women   absolutely   there is a sexual or there's an emotional attachment.  

Hey. And, Christy, you're saying there's absolutely an emotional attachment that comes that's, heightened by sex and things like that.   But a 100%, we'll get girls on here, some that are gonna agree.   Like at the beginning, we were talking about Rachel Wilson.   We would like to get her over on spiders,   and we've expired.   But,   also at some point, probably on here and on spiders, it would probably be more of a   presentation style type thing, and then just a a a friendly generally conversation.   We're over on this if she chose to come over on this platform, then it would probably be,   more oppositional   debatish   due   to some of her ideas that,   thinking that the cult is evil and that that's   not understanding that that is   what she's seeing where feminism became a twist in the world.  

That was all packaged together in this whole other package, and it's like they picked   a number of things, put them together, and then   put them all out. And so   to not to   you're making this derivative of this, and it's not. These 2 both are derivative of something else.   So there's there there's some arguments to be had,   which is part of what debate is. If you agree on everything, it's,   you know,  

[02:23:25] allen marcus:

That's a key difference of   a Tuesday night   delivering dog face dude's episode   versus as opposed to contradistinction   towards,   this Weaving Spider's Welcome, or Weaving Spider's webs, or   weaving spiders where we're exploring ideas on a Saturday night in a more casual,   setting. That's fun. This is where we do the research. We dig up topics. We explore things. We hear different opinions,   and we consider them.   On this platform, on this stream, on this Tuesday, we are much more   oppositional   in a good way,   challenging ideas,   strengthening   arguments,   poking holes in weak arguments,   exposing   fraud, fakery, bad ideas, those types of things.  

I think that's the primary difference if anyone's wondering why we're, delivering dog faced dudes,   we're also   Weaving Spiders on Saturday night that will continue   to stream every Saturday night. This is a new venture   sprouting out of that with a different,   goal mindset   format than what's on Saturday night. Both will continue to stream as   long as we have steam and people paying attention and wanting us to do it.  

[02:24:43] John Roeland:

Exactly.   Exactly.   Well, this was this was, I think excellent.   Everybody in the chat seemed to really love it. Look forward to seeing you also in September, and Marcus is gonna be with also. Him and I are, road tripping it together.   But,   yeah, everybody, Flat Toberfest is coming up. It's in September this year. Sherry, love to see you.   But,   yeah, come to Flat Toberfest. And if not, we'll be here, next Tuesday. I think we're gonna   go through the kinda other side of this and go through the,   Rolo Tomasi version of,   the red pill rules, or   there's, let's see here, the golden rules   of the red pill and kinda go through and then maybe,   I don't think that's gonna take quite as long. Well, maybe. You know? Because, I mean, I think,   a lot of those were more oppositional too.  

Although I don't think any of us are gonna try and,   most of these   not   be about,  

[02:25:54] allen marcus:

I don't think. I I I wonder if there even is a publicly stated   red pill, manosphere   game sort of guy who   promotes   promiscuity   and having sex with as many people as possible   as a good thing, as something men should do. Is that is there even someone like that? If you guys find someone like that, we'd love to have a little friendly   debate with someone who espouses   men   to sleep with as many people as possible as that is the the goal of that guy's life. If that's what he's about. Well, let's Yeah. Have a chat with him and and pick his brain and then see if his   lifestyle choice   and modus operandi is   benefiting to him and that large society.  

Has he left a trail of cheers behind?  

[02:26:49] Benjamin Balderson:

We'll find  

[02:26:51] John Roeland:

Yeah. I think there's quite a few of those that we can get into it with, and, that's gonna be excellent. Well, they do  

[02:26:57] allen marcus:

sell they do sell retreats and packages   and wingmen and all these things. And that's really what the atmosphere   ends up being is selling a book, selling a course, selling a technique, that sort of thing. There's a financial,   imperative that the individual has, and that's the motivation behind it. But are the ideas   beneficial   to the man buying the product and taking the ideas to heart and trying them out in the field in the game and the   I don't know. Don't know about that.  

[02:27:28] John Roeland:

Yeah. Whether it's Wes Watson   or or or, what's that? Fighting Andrew Tate, they all have their little pyramid screen b s where they're   multimillionaires,   and you guys are,  

[02:27:41] allen marcus:

you know, gonna be like if if the argument is, do you wanna be a rich guy with a harem   or a poor guy without an apartment, lives in his car, doesn't have a wife?   Well, you can see the material wealth,   the hustle culture, that sort of thing. Is it gonna be real appealing?   And to tell a man to remain pure and   work hard and be a janitor and work your way up from the bottom is a very   difficult   sell.   But let's get into in seldom and red pill life sells next week. Thank you, John. I think you're gonna have to press the button and kick us out of here. Glad to be there. Guys. Have  

[02:28:21] Benjamin Balderson:

a   good   night.