Abel James Show

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Have you ever dreamed of dropping out of the rat race and moving to a tropical paradise?

This week’s guest actually did it.

If you’ve ever struggled through an 80 hour workweek, you know it can be incredibly profitable… but at what cost to your health, happiness and family life?

How do you know when enough is enough?

Today we’re here with fellow OG podcaster and host of the hit show Entrepreneurs on Fire, my friend John Lee Dumas.

After years working 60-80 hours a week living in San Diego, JLD made the life-changing decision to revamp his business and move his family to Puerto Rico, where he now works just 20-30 hours a week kicking back in a Caribbean paradise.

And get this—after more than a decade of podcasting, JLD has recorded more than 4,500 podcast interviews with some of the top minds in business, so he has the unique ability to tap into the pulse of what it really means to be a successful entrepreneur, and someone whose successful in business and in life for the long term.

In this episode with John Lee Dumas, you’re about to hear:

• How John reduced his workweek from 80 hours to around 20 hours—doesn’t that sound nice
• How to achieve longevity in podcasting, business, and life
• How to adapt to the AI Revolution
• How to find financial freedom by defining your “enough”
• And much more…

Read the show notes: https://fatburningman.com/john-lee-dumas-how-to-quit-the-rat-race-and-move-to-paradise/

Go to https://uncommonsuccessbook.com/ to grab John Lee Dumas’ top-rated book, "The Common Path to Uncommon Success" and head over to https://www.eofire.com/ to listen to the Entrepreneurs On Fire podcast with John Lee Dumas

Join the Abel James’ Substack channel: https://abeljames.substack.com/

Listen and support the show on Fountain: https://fountain.fm/show/6ZBhFATsjzIJ3QVofgOH

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/fatburningman

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[00:00:01] Abel James:

Hey. This is Abel James, and thanks so much for joining us on the show. Have you ever dreamed of dropping out of the rat race and moving to a tropical paradise?  

[00:00:09] Abel James:

This week's guest actually did it. If you've ever struggled through an eighty hour work week, you know it can be incredibly profitable, but at what costs to your health, happiness, and family life? How do you know when enough is enough? Today, we're here with fellow OG podcaster and host of the hit show Entrepreneurs on Fire, my friend, John Lee Dumas.   After years working sixty to eighty hours a week living in San Diego,   JLD made the life changing decision to revamp his business and move his family to Puerto Rico, where he now works just twenty or thirty hours a week kicking back in a Caribbean paradise. And get this, after more than a decade of podcasting,   JLD has recorded more than 4,500   podcast interviews with some of the top minds in business. And so he has the unique ability to tap into the pulse of what it really means to be a successful entrepreneur   and someone who's successful in business and in life for the long term. In this episode, you're about to hear how John reduced his work week from eighty hours to around twenty hours. Doesn't that sound nice? How to achieve longevity in podcasting,   business, and life. How to adapt to the AI revolution,   how to find financial freedom by defining your enough, and much more. Let's go hang out with John.  

Welcome back, folks. Today, we're here with our friend, the one and only, John Lee Dumas, host of the hit OG podcast, Entrepreneurs on Fire. Over the past twelve years, JLD has interviewed over 4,000 entrepreneurs, and he's just getting warmed up. In fact, right before we started recording,   he told me that he has done now 4,491   interviews, not including all of the other interviews on other people's shows like this one. So kudos to you for leading the charge, John. Thanks so much for being here.  

[00:10:45] John Lee Dumas:

Abel, I'm fired up. You know, we're just a couple of New England boys who are, trying to make good in this world, doing everything that we can, and we've, you know, fled that part of the country to a warmer climate, you and Austin, myself in Puerto Rico for eight years now. And, brother, I'll never leave.   

[00:10:59] Abel James:

Yeah. I mean, it seems like you've just found a comfy spot in paradise,   but your journey to get there has been a long and windy one. I can even hear it in your voice now. I've been really impressed by your trajectory over the years. Because especially coming out of the gate, we started our podcast around the same time, and you are going hard recording all the time. And not to put words in your mouth or whatever, but just, you know, from the outside watching,   what you've done with your life and your career. It's been really inspiring because lots of success working super hard and then lots of,   kind of   taking a step back, reevaluating,   tapping the brakes, and changing your entire life for for you and your family in what seems to be a really, really positive direction. And I can even hear it in your voice in the times that we've interacted in the past few years compared to when we first did, you know, ten plus years ago.  

You're much more   relaxed.   It just seems like you can hear it in someone's voice when they're living a life that's aligned with what they should be, and it seems like you're a fundamental example of that. So I just wanna give you a quick tip of the hat.  

[00:12:06] John Lee Dumas:

Well, listen. I appreciate that. I received that. You know, one thing that I have come to realize in the forty four years now that I've been on this planet, you know, from my time in the military to corporate finance, to commercial real estate, to law school, to being an entrepreneur in the podcasting space,   is that, you know, we're all in some ways living   quiet lives of desperation.   Mhmm. And that may sound   sad or that may sound a little scary or morbid,   But listen. That's just kinda how humans are programmed. We're kinda programmed to just say, hey. What what is the biggest problem that I have right now? How can I fix that problem? And then go on down the food chain. You know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, once we got shelter taken care of, once we have food taken care of, then we just kinda keep going down the problem issue. Now it's like, you know, my Tesla Powerwall   isn't, you know, collecting enough sun energy every day to, you know, power my house. And so, I mean, it's just kinda crazy how this thing goes. And and I like having that kind of mentality because to me, it allows every interaction you have with somebody   to just say, you know what? That individual,   they're trying. Life is hard, and they're trying hard. They have friends, family, loved ones. They have health. They have struggles, financial, all these different things. And at this moment, they may be living a very quiet life of desperation because we don't we don't know that. We don't need to specifically know that, but we do need to give them grace   to say, hey. Like, what's going on in your world? Or just let them do what they need to do to figure things out. And when we were talking about twelve years ago, as you were mentioning,   I was in the quiet place of desperation as every entrepreneur is when they're first starting out on their journey. You're clueless. You don't know if this is gonna work. You're working so hard. Blood, sweat, and tears. You're just desperately   scared of it working. You're desperately scared of it failing. You don't know what to do. And, you know, sometimes,   someday, it works out, and you can start making different choices, which is kinda what you were referring to. And we have made those choices over the last twelve years, specifically the last five or six years   to kind of do what we wanna do in life and in business. And, you know, maybe we get into that later on in the episode, but, I'm excited to have that conversation.  



[00:14:14] Abel James:

Well, I'd love to because, you know, especially the longer that I do this podcast, the health was kind of the starting point. But you can't talk about   health without talking about the health of your finances or your business or how hard you're working or other things. So, like, the longer I do the show, the more people I talk to, the more I see those connections between these different aspects of life. It's it's easier and and kinda convenient to say that, oh, my health is is nailed or or I I totally have that dialed in. But if you don't have that other aspect of your life under control,   then, ultimately, it will affect your health and come back to all these things. Same thing with business. If you go way too far down the road of of overworking,   and we've seen this play out many times with with folks, sometimes your relationships   suffer. Sometimes your health itself   starts circling the drain. And, so, anyway, when I see, folks like you who have crushed it from a business side of things and also made major   adjustments in service of your own family, in service of your own,   you know, time on earth and valuing that as as highly as you could. I think I've heard you say that you were working, you know, sixty, seventy, eighty hours a week in years past, and now it's more like twenty, thirty.  

So what is that like, and why did you decide to kind of make some of those fundamental changes?  

[00:15:28] John Lee Dumas:

I think one of the critical things that we can do as entrepreneurs   is   very consistently take a pulse on our life, on how we feel about our business. Like, really sit down with yourself in quiet times, and this is why a lot of people I know you've mentioned it before, and I'm big on it as well. Talk about meditation. Talk about journaling. Talk about quiet time. Because these are all critical, times and places where we can really say, you know what? The world is crazy as big as asking me to do a million things. But how do I really feel right now about my business, about my finances, about my health? Ask yourself the tough questions in a private place where it's just you where you can hopefully get a great and meaningful answer. And   keep that finger on the pulse because things will change and evolve over time. And I did a bad job of that, like, really the first six to seven years of my business because I was in total grind mode. I was just building, building, building. And I finally came up for breath at one point due to some great advice from mentors that I have and did just those type of things. And what was the result of that was me looking in the mirror and saying, I'm actually not really running the business that I wanna be running. I have 13 employees.  

I'm spending a lot of my days managing those employees.   My monthly   salary expenses are pretty huge, which is making me do a lot of other products and services and launches that I might not otherwise want to do. What would it look like if I just simplify things? If I said, you know what? I'm gonna give up potentially   top line gross revenue,   and I'm gonna focus on what's a number that's really gonna make me happy. What's a number and this is a key word we'll probably come back to a couple times, Abel.   What's a number that's enough?  

And that's something that so few entrepreneurs   ever recognize, ever think about. What is enough?   And I got that number for me.   And it really did help, by the way, that I live in Puerto Rico. We don't pay any federal tax. We pay no state tax. We pay a flat 4% tax. So we get to keep the money that we make. So   Puerto Rico gave me the opportunity   to really get to that number quickly where I said, what is enough of me making this gross revenue? Because now I can keep this net revenue, and I'm paying essentially no money in taxes. So   I'm at my number without having to, you know, really sacrifice the things I don't wanna sacrifice to stay at that number. Like, it was such an amazing opportunity. So over, I'd say, the next seven years and it wasn't immediate. We did start making changes immediately. But over time, what was happening is we were taking our business from 13 employees. It was taking up a lot of my time managing, a lot of course launches and product launches and masterminds and events that I might not otherwise have done just to kind of make enough money to pay the business to make sure that it could keep functioning   to we're sitting here today.  

It's myself and Kate in two virtual assistants. That is our entire business. Now, again, we did not get there overnight. We got there over seven years   of intentional decisions,   slowly,   closing down and sunsetting things and projects and products and courses and etcetera. And then getting to a point a few years ago, because we've been here now for a few years at this place where we're at two virtual assistants, myself, my wife, and we're running a   thriving,   multimillion dollar net profit a year business.   Net profit meaning after taxes too   here in Puerto Rico   and loving life as a result because we were very intentional about taking that pulse. Now again, was I there in 2012, in 2014, in 2018?  

No.   Was I getting there in 2020?   Yes. Am I now here in 2024?   Yes. But it all stemmed from me actually knowing   what my enough was, where I actually wanted the goal post to be. And that's a very hard decision for a lot of people.   And I'll tell you one thing about running a show seven days a week where I interview the world's most successful entrepreneurs   is you learn from those entrepreneurs. And their biggest failures   are doing exactly what I was doing, just growing, growing, growing with no real plan in mind. So   that to me was such a revelation, and I like to share that story because I think there's a lot of people out there that could start moving in that direction if that feels right for them. But guess what, Abel? There's the Gary Vaynerchucks of the world, the Elon Musks of the world. They should never take my path because, man, if they had to spend a day in my shoes, they would kill themselves of boredom. It's not for everybody. There's people that should be crushing it and grinding their faces off a %. There's some people that should be 70%. There's some people that should be 30%.  

You've gotta find what it is for you that makes you happy, fulfilled,   thriving,   and just overall in your right vibe and energy, and go for that.  

[00:20:06] Abel James:

And it can be a moving target, right, even for you. I mean, no one needs to tell you that you've put in the work. Whether it was in the military   in that previous career or the world of podcasting,  

[00:20:16] John Lee Dumas:

you've earned it. Let me touch on that moving target real quick because I it's such a key piece that we need to really make sure that we talk about because it's it's so true. Because guess what? For the past four years now, like I mentioned, I've been at that place.   And, you know, now I just have my son a year ago. He's almost a year old, and I'm kinda getting itchy now where I'm like, you know what? Kate's kinda transitioning into mom mode. Like, I'm thinking, man, what's like, what could be next business wise? Because I've got a lot of things locked in in the other scenarios. So I might be opening another chapter in my life, who knows,   in the next x number of, you know, fill in the blank, months, years, or whatever. And that who knows what that looks like? But that next chapter, that next series, you know, that next series of my life,   that could be a a whole new chapter where I'm doing something different. But it always is going back to, let me really feel my pulse and make sure that, you know, these   feelings that I'm having aren't just one, two, three times, but are consistent over days, weeks, months.  



[00:21:15] Abel James:

You've gotta wait for that itch sometimes. Right? Like, it'll get away from you if we all are guilty of burning out at some point or just kind of burning the candle at both ends. And taking that step back is so important because I can echo that. You know, it's been really interesting   kinda coming up many years ago now with folks who have scaled their businesses to tens of millions, hundreds of millions, unicorns that in the billion dollar territory.   And it's been so interesting to kind of witness   the sacrifices that in some cases were made to get there, whether it was in their own relationships or what their business stood for or, you know, their own personal health.   We kind of worship   the idea of scaling, especially as early entrepreneurs.  

But, you spend a few years there, and you start to realize that, like, our time on Earth is a lot more freshest than many of us   might realize. And I think you kind of got that message very early in your career. Maybe you can share a little bit of that because, I mean, I was tearing up when I read your book, to be honest. Your background is   so powerful, and the experience is,   so important, I think, to share with others. But let me just share a a couple lines here. You made a promise to yourself. You promised you would never settle for a life that lacked fulfillment,   never give up the pursuit of happiness. You promised that you would live a life worth living, of service, of gratitude, and a lot of these other things. So what brought you to that conclusion,   and how do you value that now? How has that changed the rest of your life?  



[00:22:44] John Lee Dumas:

Well, those are a lot of pretty words, and, you know, anybody can really write pretty words, and maybe they mean it, maybe they don't. But, you know, what really brought me to that moment, which made it super real for me,   was, you know, that was during a deployment   to Iraq where I was an army officer in charge of four tanks, 16 men,   in a time of war, in a time of battle.   And, you know, of those 16 men that I was deployed with that I was the tank commander of, I was their platoon leader, I was in charge of bringing them home,   Four made the ultimate sacrifice, and they never returned home.  

And it was such, like, a emotional moment for me so that I failed in that capacity.   And at the same time, I was not going to fail going forward   by not honoring the sacrifice that they had made.   And I just, in that moment, you know, committed that, you know, I'm not going   to live a life less than I'm capable of living. And whenever it's, you know, I felt like quitting or stopping to work or or doing any number of things, you know, especially in those early days when I had no success, when I had no traction, when I had no knowledge   of if this was gonna work, I would bring myself back there and say, like, hey. I'm sitting here in Portland, Maine,   like, interviewing   entrepreneurs,   and I'm gonna, like, you know, complain or I'm gonna, you know, be afraid of of continuing on this fight that I've decided to, you know, equip myself with when it comes to launching a successful business podcast, interviewing the world's most successful entrepreneur seven days a week? And the answer was no. I'm not gonna give up this fight. I'm not gonna quit. I owe it   to the men who gave the ultimate sacrifice,   and I'm gonna, you know, uphold that promise. And   to this day, I still go back to that promise that I made   when certain scenarios arise.  

You know, when, you know, something   terrible happens in the world, you know, to me or to my a loved one, you know, of course, you wanna react in the correct way, but at the same time, you need perspective of, like,   okay. In the big scheme of things, you know, is the fact that my stovetop   burned out last night, you know, while we were cooking dinner, which by the way is a true story. It's out now. Like, it's even it's out of my kitchen, and it's annoying. But I'm like, alright, John. Take a deep breath. Relax. In a week, it's gonna be fixed. It's gonna be replaced.   Like, let's keep some perspective here. Because it's the little things in life that can wear you down and break people if you let it. But if you don't take that time to have gratitude,   space,   meditation,   just with you   journaling,   then   these things can really pile up over time and take you down.  



[00:25:23] Abel James:

I've heard you talk about, you know, a lot of people say, well, you probably got disciplined from the military, all these things. I know you had, you know, a response to that. But I am curious   for, you know, normal citizens who don't have, that sort of training and experience. Are there other aspects that you do bring,   to your life, whether it's perspective or habits or anything like that that regular Joes and Janes might be able to learn from?  

[00:25:47] John Lee Dumas:

You know, I will say there's a lot of things that I'm committed to. You know, movement is one of those things. So I have a dog. He's a 75 pound goldendoodle,   and I love the fact that every single morning, I'm getting a wet nuzzle from him   at about 05:30AM.   I'm an early riser, and I like to be an early riser because I go to bed early as well.   And I know that I have a three mile hike that I'm about to take him on because he's an active dog, and he needs it. So, you know, there's no, like, battling with my own self about do I get out and and get some movement in today? It's it's already locked in. And so I just have this process where I just there's no questions, no excuses. I get out of bed,   put the leash on, we're out for a 30 sorry, for a three mile walk, which is close to an hour at times. And during that time, I'm using it wisely. I'm consuming content on topics that I love, that I wanna learn more about, whether that be AI   or investments or nutrition or whatever it might be. I'm utilizing that time as well while I'm hiking outdoors with my dog, taking in the blue sky as it's right you know, as the sun's rising and breathing in the fresh air that's blowing in off The Caribbean and being grateful for that as well and sweating and moving and making all that happen. And, you know, that's just just that's the the cornerstone of my day. Like, that's the start. Because then it just flows into the other things that I have as nonnegotiable.  

And I won't get overly detailed because, you know, some people might find it boring, but, I mean, I will tell you that, like, strength training, stretching,   red light therapy, cold plunge,   infrared saunas, all these things are involved with that because   I know that   if I'm not healthy, if I'm not feeling vibrant and energetic,   then guess what? No matter how financially successful I am, I'm not gonna be able to enjoy it to the degree to the level that I want to, or I'm not gonna be able to achieve this type of success that I want to. So that's my priority number one when I'm waking up in the morning is making sure I'm taking care of that side of things. Because then the rest of the day, when I maybe get caught up in some kind of work or business situation,   I've already checked that block. And it's just a great way for me to say, you know what? I'd love to get a walk in later this evening, and I usually do, by the way. But if I don't, because of any number of things, that's okay because I've already checked those blocks.  



[00:28:02] Abel James:

I love that. What what about to go back earlier in the conversation, defining   enough.   How did you get there? And what are the things that you valued that you wanted to be, like, taking because it's unlimited. Right? Like, if you had billions of dollars, you could be rocketing to the moon and building spaceships or whatever.   But, you know, anything less than that, do you have to crush your dreams? Do you have to abandon something?   How did you,   value those sorts of things as you were coming up with your decision?  

[00:28:30] John Lee Dumas:

So I won't take full credit for that kind of concept. It was actually, you know, one of my past guests. And, again, this is why I love doing what I do because I'm speaking every single day to brilliant, successful, inspiring,   motivating   entrepreneurs, and I I'm learning so much from them.   And one of them, years ago, told a story, and the story went something along the lines of, like, you know, this very famous artist was having an art exhibition.   And, you know, he loved his paintings, and he was he was, you know, lauded for his amazing   artistic work, and he was very successful in his own right. And so he was at his opening for his art gallery,   and he's talking to this one guy. And suddenly, the guy's like, shh. Listen. You know who just walked in?  

That guy that just walked in is one of the richest men in the world.   Like, he could buy all of your art, and you, like, you you'll never be able to make as much money as him doing what you do. And then the artist looked back at that guy and said, well, I have one thing that he'll never have. And the the guy's like, what are you talking about? He's, like, the richest man in the world. He has everything. And the artist said, I have enough.   And, essentially, what he meant was,   a, he has enough. B, he loves what he does. He's satisfied with what he does. And you could just tell by looking at that individual   that that person would never have enough. Like, they did just so ambitious, so overly   needing the next and the next and the next, and they're gonna probably look up one day, you know, when there wasn't much time left. And they'll be like, man, what was it all for? Did I really stop and, you know, quote, unquote, smell the roses? So that kind of got me thinking back in the day, and I said, well, what is my version of enough? I mean, I wanna smell the roses. I don't wanna be here in my studio, by the way,   you know, where 20 feet that way is a stunning panoramic view of the Caribbean Ocean. It's this 82 degree day right now. There's, like, seven colors of blue in The Caribbean, like, going out to Vieques Island, which is this gorgeous island that I can just see, you know, right from my kitchen terrace. And, you know, my my son's probably swimming in that pool right now. Yeah. So I was just like, am I gonna spend twelve hours a day in this little dark cave and then go out and it's already dark outside? And or am I gonna spend three hours in this cave? Because, a, I do enjoy it because I like being relevant and actually talking to a brilliant human like Abel instead of a 11 year old, you know, boy that's still trying to figure things out in this world.  

But where's the balance? And, like, what's enough so I can do this   as much as I want, so I can do this enough, and I can do that enough? Because that would get boring too. Just sitting by my pool all day, that'd be I'd be bored out of my mind as well. Like, you need to find what is enough for you on every level of your life. What's enough exercise? Are you trying to have a ripped eight pack   at 44 years old? I'm not. Like, I'm happy, you know, having, you know,   15%   body fat, but still enjoying a Haagen Dazs ice cream every now and then as well. So, like, what is your enough in these different areas?   And I got there, and it's constantly being tweaked and adjusting. And sometimes, something's gonna completely change and all to reidentify and reestablish it, but that's life as well. And then we proceed.  



[00:31:29] Abel James:

Get to your goal and stop, you've said before. Right?  

[00:31:33] John Lee Dumas:

Pretty much.  

[00:31:34] Abel James:

Yeah. It's somehow still unpopular. I'm curious, though, after doing over 4,000 of these   interviews.   How often are you surprised these days? Is it is it constant still, or are you hearing similar stories that,   that entrepreneurs are facing?  

[00:31:50] John Lee Dumas:

I would say I'm rarely surprised because of how many that I've done. And I don't think that's a bad thing, by the way. I think it just shows you that, like, history doesn't necessarily repeat, but it does, you know, rhyme. And there's so many similarities. And that's why my book that you've referenced a few times, The Common Path to Uncommon Success,   It's a 17   step road map to financial freedom and fulfillment. That's what that book is. And those 17 steps, they're not my 17 steps. They are a just combination of at that time, I interviewed about 3,500   people of those individuals that I interviewed over a decade at that point, now twelve years, now over 4,000 guests.  

But, you know, that   was   knowledge from them. Those were learnings from them, and   there were so many similarities. And I was seeing that, man, like, there's very few surprises   on a person's path to success   when you're looking backwards over it because you can see   why they were successful there. Of course, everything's easier in hindsight just like, you know, being   the Monday morning quarterback of, like, well, of course, you know, whatever should have happened. Like, that's so obvious. And it's like that in business and entrepreneurship.   So very few surprises, but I don't see anything that's a good thing. And every now and then, I'll get surprised, and it'll be something fun and new and enjoyable, and that'll be cool. But   that's a rarity.  



[00:33:11] Abel James:

What about how   technology and podcasting and the media landscape   has evolved in the past few years? You know, we predate the word influencer, the the creative economy or creator economy, that whole thing. At the beginning, it was quite technical. Right? Whether you had an audio podcast or incorporated video, there was a lot of coding that needed to happen, and it was it was different back then. Now it's it's a   everyone is familiar with what podcasting is. That certainly wasn't the case when you got started. So how have you, reacted to some of these changes? How has your own workflow maybe evolved?   What has, surprised you over the years of podcasting?  

And and what's coming next in your mind?  

[00:33:53] John Lee Dumas:

I'm a big believer in focus. Like, follow one course until success. I believe my biggest reason for success is because I blocked out the noise for the past twelve years, and I've just kept doing what I do, which is produce the best possible daily podcast interviewing the world's most successful entrepreneurs literally seven days a week, three sixty five per year. That's my focus.   I will say it's 2024,   and   we are on the precipice of change.   AI is getting crazy. Anybody that's checked out ChatGPT,   Midjourney,   NotebookLM,   I mean, I could go on and on because they're just coming out every single day.  

You know, you're seeing the absolute   insanity   that is happening right now in this world when it comes to video and   voice and, you know, fill in the blank. And so listen. We, right now, are on the abyss of change. It might take a year. It might take six months. It might take three to five years. Like, who knows?   But   I can smell the change coming and what that means for entrepreneurs on fire. I don't exactly know. But I do know that I've never felt this way in the past twelve years. I've always been like, hey. There's gonna be competition. People are gonna come in. They're gonna try this and try that, but I'm gonna focus on my thing.   You know, AI is real, and it's gonna disrupt a lot of things. It's gonna bring a lot of great things to the world. It's gonna bring a lot of disruption to the world, which can be both good and bad.  

So we'll see what happens, but, man, I'm keeping my finger on that pulse. I can tell you that. For sure. Yeah.  

[00:35:19] Abel James:

In the world of podcasting, what are you seeing,   AI do so far, and what do you think its potential is?  

[00:35:27] John Lee Dumas:

So right now, I have to have skills as a speaker, as a communicator, as a facilitator of a conversation. I mean, you've done this a ton of times, presented from stage, you know,   on this stage right here that we have, on other people's shows, on your shows.   You've developed a skill set. You are good at what you do. I'm good at what I do. There's other podcast hosts and speakers that are good at what they do. And there's a lot of people that aren't willing to put in the work that we put in to get good at what they do. So there'll never be competition.   But now there's an opportunity for those people who would never put in the work to do what we do to become good that can just   copy and paste some text, upload it to notebook.lm,   then all of a sudden have a podcast episode with this this co hosting. I don't know if you've even heard that, but it's crazy how, like, natural that it sounds. Yeah. I'll tell you in a second. Funny stuff. Really nuts.  

And now that person who's, you know, a 12 year old introvert or an 87 year old,   you know, human who's lost their voice but still has their functionalities   can now be competing with us and be, you you know, doing these things that could be really interesting. And at the very least,   it's going to really   saturate an already saturated market even more, which is more content, more this, more that. And so we'll see what happens. I mean, listen. You know, change is good, usually.   So, I'm kinda just keeping my finger on the pulse, and I'm curious to hear what you have to say about it. Yeah. So, like, NotebookLM,  

[00:36:53] Abel James:

I was familiar with chat GPT and and Claude and and a bunch of the other ones I'd I'd goofed around with a little bit. But I kept getting these messages, like, a couple of months ago, and people are just like, dude, you need to check out notebook l m because I think they're using your voice or they use your voice to, like, train it for because there's so, basically,   quick overview of what it is from my understanding is Notebook l m. Basically, you could put in a paragraph or an article or   some sort of input and based upon that or some marketing spin, whatever,   based upon that, it will generate a   simulated podcast conversation between the ones that I've heard are a male host and a female host kinda go Yeah. And those are really the two voices they have now. Yeah. And so, like, people kept sending me these things. They're just like, are you working with Google or something? Because, like, Google's using your voice. I'm, like, what are you talking about? This is ridiculous.  

And then I I actually went in and listened, and it was, like,   befuddling and and deeply disturbing. At least the clips It sounds like you?   The clips that I heard were, like,   me? Wow.   80% me? And then it would, like, morph into an NPR voice sometimes, then it would morph into something else. But it's, like, certain things that I use. I'm I'm sure you're familiar with what it's like to listen to your own voice, and it can be an unpleasant experience. It can be fine. Whatever.   But it is different than listening to someone else's voice. And when I heard this, I was like, woah. There was like it was a head shaking moment. Like, this is Yeah. This is very strange, especially because   it was saying words that that, like, I might use or kind of use in inflections   similar to the way that that I would speak on a podcast.  

But what it was saying was stuff that I would never even approach because you can make it say, essentially, any Anything. Yeah.   So to me, it made me think of, you know, for you, for example, like building up entrepreneurs on fire   as well as your own personal brand.   You have been doing great work   for many, many years.   Thousands, millions of people ultimately listen to you, are affected by it, and you've built trust with them by them listening to your voice   over years, and you've delivered on those promises. You've said things that are like, I don't know if that's true. They look into it. It's true. You delivered on those promises, so trust was built. And what's happening now is   you can, like, simulate voices that sound it might not sound exactly like the person, but kind of, like, subconsciously.  

That trust that was built in those types of voices   is now not something that you can trust anymore. Right? So, like, we have access to all the information in the world, but you don't know if any of it is true anymore. So that's a really dangerous place to be in the information economy, media landscape, however you wanna describe it. But the future,   you know, as far as that is concerned, is a little bit   troubling or at least we're gonna need to get a handle on it. And in the meantime, I think we need to double down on the the real human relationships   being in the same room together, you know, taking some of these conversations offline even. I'm encouraged by the fact that I think a lot of people will be going in that direction   and really hanging out doing great work together again. Because the promise of being able to work virtually is great, but as soon as trust is in question, it gets a little bit hairy.  



[00:40:01] John Lee Dumas:

It used to be a world where you would trust and then verify, especially for those people that you already kind of had trust for. Mhmm. But now for everything, it's gotta be verify   and then trust. Yeah. Because to your point, I mean, like, anybody can take my audio clips, your audio clips, anybody's audio clips, and they can essentially make us say close to anything that sounds so much like us. Tonality,   diction, like, you know, everything.   And that's scary. So, like, you know, I this is kind of like a little   warning to families out there is, like, have a special,   like, secret   word that only your   kids know, that only your family knows. So that if they ever get a phone call one day and it sounds identical to the person on the other on the other line, even if it's a FaceTime,   Because the video is insane now, you have to be able to look at that FaceTime and say,   what is our family secret word? And then, of course,   the AI can't say that if you've kept it truly secret.  

And then that's the only way that you can kind of figure out for sure that it's not who they say it is or that you can verify that it is who they're claiming they are.   So it's pretty crazy. And, you know, again, all you can do is kind of try to stay educated in my opinion. And so I I watch, some great YouTube shows, like, Matt Wolf has a great YouTube channel on artificial intelligence, on AI, where he really kind of unveils the latest and greatest and where things are trending and going and  

[00:41:24] Abel James:

try to stay educated. That's what I'm doing. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm curious. Would you ever consider   and I've battled with this too. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do this.   But who knows what the future holds? If you could just basically have the AI   of JLD   run entrepreneurs on fire for you and interview guests or something like that, would you do it? Here's the problem. So I literally  

[00:41:50] John Lee Dumas:

build my whole philosophy around business, the advice that I give   around one main phrase. Well,   a couple main phrases.   That book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, can be summed up in one sentence.   It's a fantastic book all the way through, so read the whole thing. But it could be summed up in one sentence.   Become the number one solution   to a real problem.   If you can look at the mirror and honestly say that you are doing that, that you're the number one solution to a real problem, you will win because people will beat a path to your doorstep   for the number one solution to their problem. And if you're not able to do that, it's probably because you're not niche enough. You're gonna find a niche that's being ignored, that's not being served well, and then you make that happen. So that is a very critical component to think about when you're going through a process of, like, building a business.  

The thing that to your question of, like, would I have AI run entrepreneurs on fire? Here's a problem with that.   I'm a big believer in this second phrase.   The higher the barrier,   the lower the competition.   Mhmm. The reason why Entrepreneurs on Fire's been a top business podcast   making millions of dollars a year   for twelve years now   and counting   is because I've created such a high barrier of entry that I don't have any competition.   When I launched, I was the only daily podcast interviewing the world's most successful entrepreneurs.   Today, I'm the only daily business podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs seven days a week. Nobody's doing it. Yeah. It's such a hard replication. The barrier to entry   is so high   that if you started today, good. You're 4,491   episodes ago, and probably your skills are a lot lower than mine.  

So who's really going to choose your show over mine? And a lot of people have had that conversation with themselves, and so they haven't. And so that was the niche that I carved out. Like, you've carved out a niche. I've carved out a niche. You know? Lewis House, Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield, you know, Jamie Masters, like, all of our the people that were working hard in in that time frame of 2010, '20 '12, '20 '14. Like, we carved out niches, and we worked hard at defending those niches of keeping that moat around our business.   If you hand something over to AI,   then what are you doing that somebody else can't do the exact same thing of? Like, oh, yeah. I could say, like, that's my voice. I'd license that. What am I gonna do? Am I gonna sue somebody that has $0?  

I mean, am I gonna spend my time suing a million people to try this that all have $0 and all, like, I have to pay a lawyer this whole time? I mean and and waste all of my time.   So you've gotta just think, like, what and where do I fit going forward in this new world? And that's a question we're all gonna have to grapple with. It's so bizarre because we're already kinda at the point where we have AI writing the posts and then AI   responding to the post. And all people are doing are just, like, deciding to press send or not or or copy paste, whatever it is. So it's like And then then they're gonna trust the AI enough when they're not even gonna be checking on that thing. And then that thing came out that you might have seen where   you can create this avatar that's identical to yourself that looks like you on video, has movements, has, like, little minor, like, ticks and stuff like that. And then you can just be, like, on 17 or a hundred simultaneous   Zoom calls   where you're present. Like, you're not actually present, but, you know, they probably have, like, something where, like, if you actually get addressed in that Zoom call, probably, like, a little red flag pops up, and you can jump over there real quick and, like, say, oh, I'm sorry. You broke up. Like, what did you say right there? I mean, it's insane.  



[00:45:21] Abel James:

It is. And I'm not sure exactly what we do with that, but I had a really fascinating   discussion with a, a storyteller of the Bardic tradition named Odds Bodkin, who is, like, one of my child heroes. Actually, you may have seen him when you in Maine when you were a kid as well. Does that ring you up? Fantastic. Well, his name's so awesome that I would've rec I would've remembered it. Yeah. What's something that he's created? So, anyway, he's been performing,   and and writing stories   as a bard would have hundreds of years ago or thousands of years ago. So it's like, the Iliad,   things like that. He'll play with a 12 string guitar and a harp. Anyway, I saw him a bunch when I was a kid and just, like, floored because all of the performance   was   him. You know, it was just that dude singing, doing all of the voices, writing everything. I asked him, how long does it take you to write some of these stories? And he said, well, usually around two years a piece, but one of them has taken twenty. And he's been doing this for over forty years. And so we had a really fascinating conversation about AI. And I'm just like,   well, if AI could write a story for you in a couple of minutes   or a song that you could sing,   what would your thinking be around that? Would you ever approach that? How would you consider all of this? And he's just,   Basically,   nope. This is   very, very dangerous. Because if if you're a kid growing up in school and AI is writing all your term papers, what exactly are you doing? What are you learning? You're only cheating yourself. And so if you're kind of   singing AI's song instead of putting in the work, learning the the craft of of how to channel ideas or channel something higher than you are maybe and build it into something that can affect other people, if you're skipping that part, then what exactly are you doing here, and how fulfilling will that be,   looking back on on your life? I don't have the answer to that. I would imagine that   people who are coming up after us and a little bit younger will be much more open to these ideas because   ethics and morality and the way things are, that's also a moving target. And I don't think any of us can really come from a place of judgment saying our way is right and the other way is wrong, but I can say that my   this has my attention   and it's worth, like, trying to reckon with this. Like, what do we do as humans to make sure that we retain our humanity   in the face of this technology that that really puts some of that at risk?  



[00:47:41] John Lee Dumas:

I think you did nail it where our generation and above are gonna, you know, just be those old curmudgeons. Right. And the younger generations are gonna be like, what are you talking about? This is all that I know. Mhmm. This is how things are now. Like, this is what I'm embracing. So   we'll see.  

[00:47:57] Abel James:

What about the world that your children are going to grow up in? I would imagine, you know, starting your family in the past year kind of reframes the whole future. So what's coming up for you?  

[00:48:08] John Lee Dumas:

What's What's coming up for me is really this world is now changing so fast and evolving so fast   that I really just wanna be in the present moment, and I wanna try to make the right decisions   today and what for what the next three months may play out with.   But then when you have, like, an 11 old, they're changing so much. And then when the world's also changing so much, like,   you know, I think it could be just wasted time, energy, and effort to be thinking too far ahead for those reasons. So   being in the presence, you know, making the right decisions based off of all the information that I have today, continuing to learn and educate myself,   and keep my finger on the pulse of everybody involved, myself, my son, my wife, my you know, those around me, And then just kinda continuing to wake up and try to make that right decision.  



[00:48:54] Abel James:

What drives you as far as the commitment to podcasting goes and interviewing entrepreneurs   and all that?   The idea of enough from a financial or business standpoint,   is something that we've kinda covered on a little bit. But I'm curious, like, in terms of the future of how you interact with people, interview   people, and the rate of that. Is this something that you plan to kind of keep going with for another ten, twenty, fifty years, whatever it is?   Or are you kinda open to because there's so much change happening right now and the rate of change is increasing also.   Is it something where you're gonna kind of keep going in this direction, or are you open to other directions as well?  



[00:49:34] John Lee Dumas:

I'd say, honestly, both. Like, I love what I'm doing right now, and I just don't see a foreseeable future where I'm going to wanna adjust or shift what I'm doing. Because to me, having amazing conversations with inspiring and and brilliant people is great for me, and, you know, it's proven to be great for my listeners. And   to kind of answer your initial question, like, what really gets me going with what I do, it's the ripple effect. It's knowing that that a conversation that I'm having on my podcast with a person is hitting somebody right now at the right place, the right time, with the right information.   And they may be on a chairlift in the Swiss Alps, or they may be biking in Bryce Canyon, or they may be surfing   with waterproof earbuds in Hawaii,   but they're consuming the content. It's giving them an moment. They're doing something that they might not otherwise have done, and it's changing their life. And that's what excites me, and that's why I love continuing   to put out this type of content because I personally love the content, and I love consuming it and having the interactions with the guests that I have on the show. But I also love the possibilities that it brings to the listeners.  



[00:50:40] Abel James:

If you had zero commitments right now and pretend you're not John Lee Dumas for a second, but you do have your knowledge.   If you were starting up a business or two, you know, 2024,   what would that look like with ultimate free time?  

[00:50:56] John Lee Dumas:

Man, that would be probably a question I have to sit down and think about because there's   very few things that I am passionate about hobby wise.   And I have a friend who's the opposite, by the way. He's a fantastic   pickleball player. He's a drummer extraordinaire.   He loves watches. He restores   Porsches.   He's an audiophile.   He knows all the great audio. He has   too many passions, if we're being honest. And it's kind of keeping him from having one big success.   I'm on the other side of the equation, which is also a bad thing in my opinion, which is having almost no passions.   So that was one reason why I was pretty excited to start a family because I'm like, well, I don't you know, I'm not gonna look at my son as, like, taking keeping me off the golf course because I don't even like golf or x or y or z. I will say I am starting a cornhole league down here in Pumas. So,   yeah, I have a I own the lot next to me, and so I'm I'm leveling it out. And I'm gonna have lights, and it's gonna be a a a fun time. But by the way, we might talk in a year, and I might be like, yeah. I'm kinda bored with that. And, you know or it might be something that I really enjoy doing because I've always enjoyed the game passively, but I've never been that good. And I wanna become really good to see if that kind of ups my level. Like, I wasn't passionate about the art of part podcasting when I started because I was bad at podcasting. But as I became good, I fell in love with the art of podcasting, of interviewing, of speaking, of presenting, of facilitating conversations.  

So that is where passion can bloom   as you become better at something.   So, you know, at the end of the day, focus on the family, focus on the podcast, on the business, play a little cornhole, and, and have some fun.  

[00:52:33] Abel James:

Anything else from a health perspective that has really   changed your trajectory or affected you or or been a surprise over the years?  

[00:52:41] John Lee Dumas:

I've been working with a functional medicine doctor for nine years now, doctor Steven Cabral.   Brilliant. He has a great podcast called The Cabral Concepts.   Every really   twelve months at a minimum, sometimes every six months depending on how the last number of tests went, I'll take the big five tests and blood test, urine, stool,   hair, and send it on in, get a full report of, like, a snapshot of my body   where I'm deficient, where I need to you know, some things I may need to work on or x, y, or z. And then we'll come up with a plan for the next six to twelve months. And, like, I've continued to do that. In fact, I've got the test on my,   desk right over here to my left that I need to do for, you know, 2025   here to kinda get kicked off in the right direction. So to me, that's really important is to have   somebody who knows you,   who knows your body that's you are continuing   to check-in with and take tests with and and looking to, you know, dial things in that you may be struggling with. Because sometimes it's just a little flip of a switch. Like, you're just you're getting no magnesium and, like, start taking magnesium supplements and, like, you're a new person. Like, that's a random example. But, like, that's been the big thing for me. Health and wellness is, like, eat clean, you know, eat healthy. But at the same time, like, again, I'm not trying to be mister universe, so I'm not gonna deprive myself of, you know, a very enjoyable treat here and there. But stay active physically,   eat healthy, and then continue to do the things with a functional medicine doctor   to make sure that I'm continuing   to make sure my body has the right minerals, nutrients, vitamins that it needs to thrive. I mean, I'm 44 years old. I mean, look at me. I mean, I I look fantastic.  

Yeah.  

[00:54:20] Abel James:

I can vouch. I can vouch. Real quickly, I would love to ask you as well about taking that leap   as a American who basically spent your life here,   moving to Puerto Rico, as well as other entrepreneurs, you know, who who kinda jump the ship, move somewhere unexpected,   a lot of people in your or family or friend group or coworkers, whatever it is, say, wouldn't it be nice? But you could never do that. I could never do that. It's never gonna happen. You actually did it. So maybe you could just quickly share about   and I assume   you would say that it's worth it,   based upon following your work and the conversations we've had in your book, of course. But I'm not gonna put words in your mouth. What was that experience like, and and what words would you offer to other people who might be considering that sort of idea?  



[00:55:05] John Lee Dumas:

Yeah. We moved here eight years ago from San Diego. You know, we went from working for the government for 60% of the year, you know, basically until July   to only working for the government until January 14 because we're only paying 4% total tax. So that was a fun shift that we made. And, you know, the great thing about Puerto Rico is a US territory. Everybody here is an American. There's a lot of American culture here. There's Costco. There's Home Depot. There's Walmart. There's different things. But don't get me wrong. This is The Caribbean. This is a Latino   culture. This is a heavily Spanish influenced culture,   which is amazing because the Puerto Ricans are such a warm, kindhearted,   great,   people welcoming.  

Like, we've loved living   amongst, you know, Boricuas, as they're called, which are native born Puerto Ricans. And then, of course, a lot of incredible   successful entrepreneurs have moved down here as well that we've gotten to meet too because they wanted to take advantage of the same opportunities.   Living in The Caribbean,   paying a flat 4% tax, paying 0% capital gains on all of our Bitcoin and real estate and stock earnings. I mean,   it's generational   wealth building right in front of our eyes. So it's been really exciting.   We came down here saying, hey. It's 2016.  

We're gonna try it for a year. If it doesn't work, we're going back to San Diego and just we're gonna suck it up and pay the taxes because, you know, that's our favorite place in The States by a long shot. And there's really very few other places that we would live long term. So we came here, and we found our dream home, which we're still in to this day. And now we started a family. We've really, started a life down here, and we have great friends, a great community,   and, you know, great business benefits. And it's just hard to imagine leaving something like this. But, you know, I say that   at the drop of a hat. If a health issue comes up or something happens   education wise for or whatever it might be, we're out of here. And that's the great thing about an entrepreneur is you can make decisions like that on the fly for what's best for you right now. And what's been best for us in the moment for the past eight plus years is Puerto Rico, and, and we love it. Good on you, man. Thank you so much for your example, and thank you for the work you do in the world. What is the best, place for folks to find your book, your podcast, and everything that's coming next?  

Well, if people are kind of interested about what I just talked about, I do have a a a blog post, that goes into a lot of details. So they can just check out   eofire.com/ypr,   meaning why,   like y Puerto Rico,   y p r.   So that's a great blog post we have with all the reasons and benefits of Puerto Rico, as well as the cons, by the way, because there's pros and cons to everywhere you live in this world, and that's just a reality.   If you wanna check out my book, uncommonsuccessbook.com,   my website is e0fire.com,   and the podcast is Entrepreneurs   on Fire.  



[01:00:45] Abel James:

Dude, John, you rock. Thank you so much for spending some time with us here today.  

[01:00:50] John Lee Dumas:

Loved it, brother.  

[01:06:19] Abel James:

Hey. Abel here one more time. And if you believe in our mission to create a world where health is the norm, not sickness, here are a few things you can do to help keep this show coming your way. Click like, subscribe, and leave a quick review wherever you listen to or watch your podcasts. You can also subscribe to my new Substack channel for an ad free version of this show in video and audio. That's at ablejames.substack.com.   You can also find me on Twitter or x, YouTube, as well as fountain f m, where you can leave a little crypto in the tip jar. And if you can think of someone you care about who might learn from or enjoy this show, please take a quick moment to share it with them. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.