Christophe Bernard is a renowned French herbalist, the founder of Althea Provence online herborist school, and an advocate for the legalisation and recognition of herbalism in France.
He has decades of experience in herbal medicine, and a deep passion for foraging and natural healing.
Enjoy our very inspiring and a little bit rebellious conversation.
About his move from computer programming to herbalism.
About the historical role of the herbalist in French pharmacies and the war between pharmacists and herbalists.
About naturopaths paving the way for medical herbalists.
About the need to be a rebel as a herbalist in France and Belgium.
About preserving the rich herbal traditions for future generations and Christophe's advice for young people starting out as a medical herbalist.
About how we see the future or herbalism in Europe.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Christophe and Althea Provence here: https://www.altheaprovence.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChristopheBERNARD-altheaprovence
(both in French)
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media. Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com. Thank you so much.
[00:00:26] Unknown:
Much.
[00:00:31] Unknown:
Welcome to Wild, the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and. And plants. And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Hello, Wildy. Welcome to a new episode of the Wild podcast. And today I have with me Christophe Bernard. He's a renowned French herbalist, educator, founder of Altea Provence, with decades of experience in herbal medicine and a deep passion for foraging and natural healing. He empowers people to reconnect with the healing powers of plants.
And Christophe also advocates for the legalization and recognition of herbalism in France, working to preserve this rich tradition for future generations. Welcome, Christophe.
[00:02:49] Unknown:
Thank you. I love the way you pronounce my name. I saw you made some effort to pronounce it the French way, so nice. Thank you.
[00:02:56] Unknown:
Yes. I'm in Belgium, so it's like my second language. So, yes. So, Christophe, let's get started on, how your journey with herbs started. what inspired you to follow this path, and how did you acquire all your skills and all your knowledge?
[00:03:17] Unknown:
well, I think what inspired me was my past as a child. I'm, very reminiscent of the 70s, when I was born here in the south of France. And, you know, I grew up in a traditional countryside family, and nobody talked about nature, but we just did a lot of Things in nature. so I spent my weekend with my grandpa or my aunts or, you know, some other family members picking lavender or picking thyme or doing decoration with wild plants. And, you know, then it was linden season, so we picked the linden on the trees. And then it was mushroom season. And, every week there was something.
And, I just loved it, but without noticing much because it was just something you did. and then I studied science. I, loved it. I was a computer geek for most of my life. Actually, the first part of my life, I fell in love with computer programming. So. Sorry. That was my first job and my first love. And, I did that since I. Until I was in my 30s. And, at some point I was, living in the U.S. working in the U.S. in California as a good computer engineer. Sorry for the cliche, but, you know, and I, think all this, all this past came back to me because I was missing my family. I was missing Provence.
And I was thinking, how can I just go back there? What would I do? I didn't see myself, continuing as an engineer. And then I just. One day I saw myself preparing little tea bags with wild herbs. And, I'm telling the truth. It literally came out of the blue one day as I was napping on my lawn in San Diego. Sunny San Diego, California. It just came to me. And then I thought, wow, okay, why not? And I bought a few books. And I'm a very, I'm a very manual guy. I need to always do what I read about. So immediately I started to pick and grow and make a lot of tinctures and syrups and stuff. And then the house was full of it. And then, you know how it goes.
Your friends start to give you advice and, start to ask you for advice. And, at some point I studied plants, in the U.S. and to this day, when I educate myself, I still have this bond with the US Because I love the diversity, you know, the integration of east and west and the different traditions. So, to this day, I still train myself in online programs in the U.S. but, so we were in the years, I think 2000, maybe five or something like this. And I, guess the new career started at this point, in parallel to my traditional job. And then at some point I quit the job and I went full time into herbs in a very naive way, because I just, you know, saw myself just living off of the land and picking herbs and selling them and everything would be fine and money would.
Would Come and. Well, it took a while, it took a while of trying different things, different businesses. Some were total flops. You know, I, I tried to open a herb store, in 2017, 18. It didn't work out. Some, to my surprise, were success. I, I sold my seeds. I, I had a seed store for about eight years and the whole family worked on it. It was, it was great. We loved it. I am I am teaching. I'm still doing that. So that's a paying side of the job. And what was the most successful was that in 2010 I started a blog, because I needed to put down my, My thoughts. And the blog has slowly, has been growing every year. and I think it's one of the most read on the French side today.
regarding medicinal plants. Really, it's like we have a, we have a huge traffic. And I say we because now I have my. A small team of people helping me. the YouTube channel did great as well since we, we went beyond the. The millions million subscribers in 2023, I think maybe this year, I don't remember. and so that public side of my activities became a real success. So I guess I kind of became as well a public figure for plants. And people came to ask me to participate in different projects and associations. And in 2018 we had a senator in France who tried to help us to legalize some aspects of our business.
So I was pulled into that a bit. And and so, which is kind of exciting because over the last, I would say four or five years, we, We've been really working together all the different, careers, I would say around medicinal plants, all different jobs around medicinal plants. From the pickers to the growers, to the transformers, the labs to the practitioners, we all have been. Created our own associations to represent this part of plants and fighting to be recognized. And we're also talking to each other, which is a big change from the past, because we all worked kind of hidden, kind of fearful of the government finding us, and suing us. A while it's been a little. Sometimes it was concerning.
I would say it's getting better. Although now I think we kind of going back. So this whole story we're seeing all our different countries. So. Sorry, as usual, as you will see, I take a lot of tangents. You will ask me a question and I will go somewhere else.
[00:09:41] Unknown:
Totally fine. Yes. I actually started thinking about the topic of herbalism in France after somebody told me that their grandfather moved to France when he was a young man, because, he found a job there. And it was a job as a herbalist in a pharmacy. And apparently like, 100 years ago, this was quite a common thing, that in a pharmacy, you had a herbalist working there alongside with a pharmacist, advising people what herbs they can use, how they could use them.
[00:10:15] Unknown:
Yeah. And, you know, that was the only. The only job. If you look at all the different jobs in medicinal plants, There was one that was recognized by the government until the second world war. But the only job was what we called herborista, which in France means the person selling herbs in a store and also giving you advice, on the counter. Right. so that job was recognized. There was a certificate that delivered by the government. It was under the, the. The responsibility of the pharmacist. I mean, the. That certificate, you know, it was. It. It was. It belonged to the university of. Of. Of pharmacy in. In different cities. and so that job was recognized and then all the others were. Were not. but people still did it, you know.
So my job, which is. I'm going to use a dirty word, you know, clinical herbalist. And if I say that in. In French, of course, I never say that because otherwise in France, clinical means of the medical profession. Right?
[00:11:23] Unknown:
Yes. I think that is quite similar in Belgium actually, because, I recently spoke to someone who, did an education for medical, herbalism in the UK and she said, now I live in Belgium and I have a practice, but actually I'm not allowed to have a practice. The Belgian government does not know what to do with me because, well, my education is bachelor level. So they know that I had a good education, but they really don't know what to do with it because there is no legal framework around it.
[00:11:54] Unknown:
It's terrible. And actually, I mean, I know the US Quite a bit because I lived there, but there is no framework in the US if you're a herbalist. there's no diploma, there's no degree, official degree, that gives you rights. Right. but the system tolerates you more or less. and I would say in France today, there's certainly not any diploma, that's for sure. And, the naturopath paved the way, I would say, in starting from the 70s and 80s. And today there are lots of naturopaths in different cities in France. and that's quite popular. The schools are well known. And so they kind of paid the way, we came way, way after that. And of Course, we have a slightly different practice, we herbalists and what we're trying to do today through associations that, that look like the American or the guild in Quebec, the American Guild of Herbalists or the Quebec Guild of Herbalists, were trying to say that we exist and we can be trusted and we put a very high bar to the quality of our work. And we're not doctors, we're not pharmacists, and we know our place.
And you know, we're just starting to do that. Yes.
[00:13:24] Unknown:
What I'm also wondering is what you said that, there was kind of a, discontinuation of the legalization of the profession herbalist, during the Second World War. What exactly happened there? How.
[00:13:40] Unknown:
Yeah, it should have gone way, way before that. It's because in the 1800s there was constant wars between, the lobby of the pharmacists and the lobby of the herbalists in France. Right. And again, you have to remember that we're talking about the job of the person who sells herb at a counter. So it looks like, you know, it's related to health. And you sell herbs and. Yeah, you, you compete with pharmacists in a sense. I mean, indirectly you do. Anyway, so the pharmacists never tolerated that. So in the 1800s there was all kinds of pressure on the government. But the government didn't, you know, cede to the pressure, didn't do anything. And then finally they did under Marshal Petain during the Second World War, the lobby of the pharmacists finally obtained, what they wanted.
But everybody's saying it should have happened before because it was such a long cycle of pressure that it's a miracle that this job could continue till that point. And then at that point the government didn't deliver certificates anymore. so the herb stores for a while were mostly, I would say managed by pharmacists. But even that is a simplification because a pharmacist has to have a traditional pharmacy along with the herb store if he or she wants to have a herb store. So it's quite a mess. but what people started to do is that we have a law that allows you to sell, about 140 plants. they've been, taken out of the pharmacist, lobby.
[00:15:41] Unknown:
Like free plants?
[00:15:43] Unknown:
Yeah, that's right.
[00:15:45] Unknown:
Previously with Francois Coupon, and he told me the same, that you have this list of free plants that can be used.
[00:15:51] Unknown:
So we have, I think it's 138 today. And we're going to have more because our associations have been working toward obtaining more. However, here's the condition. You sell them without any indications.
[00:16:05] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:16:06] Unknown:
Right. So I sell you nettles and you say like, well, what is it for? And you're like, nettles? Well, what can I do with it? It's nettles. Thank you. So of course nobody does that in practice because we're here to serve our customers, to help them. So yeah, if you go on a market and you have the small producer who's been picking his, you know, nettles and it's got big bag of nettles and if you ask her or him, then yeah, they will say it's full of minerals and it can probably help you if you have joint pain and inflammation and etc. Etc. So it's a very hypocritical system because everybody knows, everybody knows it, everybody knows that you cannot do your job, if you don't give indication. It's the same in a herb store. So you have herb stores today that are that are open and managed by non pharmacists, but they're not supposed to give you indication on all the plants.
[00:17:09] Unknown:
And that's for the situation in Belgium, actually. like, even if you have like a herbal tea tisan and it says like evening tea or something, they're already, they're not so happy with this because it indicates that it helps you to get a better sleep. And it's kind of confusing because at one point the government seems to say herbs don't work. And on the other side they say herbs are dangerous. So it's kind of.
[00:17:37] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. And in here, in France we have such a tradition around, herbal teas infusions. You know, when I was in the US we were working mostly with tinctures because I mean, it's so rare that you do teaspoon. Exception with the famous mineral infusions with nettles and all that, and Susan Weed and Rosemary Gladstar and all those people who talked about it. But otherwise it was mostly tincture formulations. And here in France we do a lot of work, with tea formulations. Me, that's how I create my formulas. It's per liter and I have people weigh each herb and make their own mix for, you know, a month, blah, blah, blah. I mean that's, that's how I work. I work with of course, tinctures and capsules, but I like working with teas. So that's one of the laws Right. Leaf. So hold on.
Then we have another law that comes from Europe and you're also submitted to it. It's a supplements law, right?
[00:18:39] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:18:39] Unknown:
And in the supplements law you have like 600 plants and you're like hooray, yes, now I can sell 600. Okay, well it's gotta be in the, in the supplement form. Which means it's pre dosed. Right. It, it cannot be bulk. So if it's a powder, it comes with a little scoop. If it's a, ah, capsules then you, you have to say you know, three to four per day. And if it's a tincture, you have to say whatever, 60 drops twice a day. So the supplements law applies to supplements. By definition they need to be pre dozable. and the only indications you can give on those products under the supplement law are the indications that have been submitted to the eu, but they haven't been approved yet. Which is again, it's such a nightmare. It's ridiculous. We don't even have approved indications. We have a database of submitted and in waiting indication and they were never ever processed by the eu. They were never looked at, they were never approved.
So in a country, in my country, in France, when you have the government doing a check on your products, right. So you're selling a tincture and it's Escalia tincture. So Escalzia, California poppy. Yeah, you can sell it, it's listed in this law. And maybe you want to put indications on this little bottle. Well, if you do, they will check it against the list of submitted indications that even haven't been approved. And then they will, they will use their own judgment and then depending on the controller, they gonna make a decision different from another controller. They're gonna look at different database. It's crazy.
So the people selling the supplements, I mean either you're a big lab with lawyers or if you're a small maker, then it's very complicated. You almost have to have a lawyer helping you to make sense out of it. Yeah.
[00:21:02] Unknown:
And you know what is really funny about this? I see with people in Belgium, they think about France as the promised land for herbalists because we think about fields full of lavender.
[00:21:16] Unknown:
Oh yeah, we do have that artisan.
[00:21:18] Unknown:
Markets where people sell their herbal soaps and everything. But they always surprise when I tell them actually the status of herbalists and the legal status of herbalists in France is pretty similar to in Belgium and probably even stricter.
[00:21:35] Unknown:
It's very strict. But the difference and Again, welcome to France. The difference is that the French people are also. They can be very militant. So I'm afraid that there are the rules and then there is what we do with the rules. Right. That's typical of France. And if you push the French a little too far, and if they feel it's unjust at some point, and, sorry, I'm going to say a very bad word, but they will say, fuck the rules.
[00:22:05] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:22:05] Unknown:
Yeah. And, unfortunately, the government is not seeing that. Unfortunately, by trying to restrict and restrict again and again, that is what they are starting to create. And, that is not good. So we're all hoping that the government will see that and they will jump back into the discussions, just like in Quebec, what they did 10 years ago, where the guild in Quebec was in such a. Interesting position to talk to the government and to be used as a trusted partner to make decision about plants and their properties. We'd, like this model to come to France one day. We're very far from that. But, hey.
[00:22:53] Unknown:
Yes. let me share a little bit more about my own experience as a herbal teacher. So, I've started teaching in 2002, and I was teaching, for one of the main schools of herbalism we have here in Flanders in Belgium. And, one of the things I did. So, the students had to write a paper at the end, on one of the herbal topics that they chose. And, well, in Belgium, we have these long lists of forbidden herbs. they cannot be sold on the market, they cannot be used. They cannot even be prescribed by medical professionals. and sometimes in these papers, there would be a mention of, like, you know, ground ivy.
You know, it's. I know it's used in France, in Germany, in the uk, in Belgium. This is a, completely forbidden plant. yes. And so I remember having this discussion, also with myself, because as a school, well, of course, obviously I was working for the school as a freelancer. They told me, yes, you have to ask the students to change these chapters where these herbs are mentioned. Because if we ever want to have an official regulation of a herbalist school, we cannot write about these herbs that are not allowed. And I always give the feedback to my students, hey, you have to change this because this is not a legal plant in Belgium to use freely.
but now looking back, I think, well, maybe because, you know, the story was always, well, maybe one day we will have an official regulation. And now I think, no, we don't have to wait until. We will one day get the official regulation, it won't come by itself. We have to actively work towards it. And this is something that I see. Over the last couple of years, a lot of more students are actually studying herbalism, which makes it, easier, I think. I think more people are open to it and more people are having this rebellious side of kicking against the system of, hey, you have to hear us. We are here. we want to do what we are trained to do, actually.
[00:25:21] Unknown:
Yeah. And we're not kids. We're not children. We can make the difference, the difference between a nettle infusion and poke root. We can be taught what poke root does and not poison ourselves with it. We're not kids. So, I'd like. Yeah, I think what you're saying is quite wise. we need to teach herbs. We need to teach all of them. Otherwise it will get lost. The practice already. Already got lost already. Yes. Right. Compared to 30, 40 years ago, we lost a tremendous amount of experience, not of data. You know, I have data on poke root, but would I be able to use it the right way?
And who will teach me? Who will show me? Of course, no one. Because it's forbidden plant. I don't want to lose that. Because we may one day use and need that information.
[00:26:17] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And, it's kind of funny how things change over the years because I see more and more herbalists becoming more rebellious, putting more question marks to the whole system. And actually what I was wondering because I have been interviewing quite some, herbalists throughout Europe, herbalists in the uk, in the north of, of Europe, in the south of Europe, in the east of Europe and in the middle of Europe. And what I see is that like, every country has their own regulation. And some countries it's like borderline illegal to practice, like in our countries. In other countries, there is an official license. In other countries, it's not licensed at all. Because everybody is still doing this. They may not even have a word for herbalist because everybody is still doing it.
Like you don't have a word for a bakery when everybody's still baking their own bread. And what I'm thinking is there is a whole, area of diversity here, but should we actually connect more and exchange experiences and exchange, you know, talk about our activism together? This, this is a question I'm asking myself.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
Oh, yeah, well, you're starting to do that with, with your podcast. And, I participated in, an initiative from the uk, with UK practitioners that Are starting to do that as well. And reaching out to different countries in Europe to share knowledge and see how we could help each other. I think the point they made was during the COVID pandemic, those who had rich, network could very quickly connect and get access to very useful resources and herbal resources. And there were many reasons to connect, but one is strength. Strength in the numbers. And so yeah, I would be, personally, I would be all for that.
and I think we can also, share best practices regarding how we work. We try to work with our respective governments, those that are still open. But you know, also what I was thinking as you were talking is that in the countryside, you know, people, simple people, simple families, they have always used herbs in my countries, always in your country as well. Nobody told them it was. They had the right to do this or that right. They didn't, they didn't care. So here they used ash leaves for joint pain and they used comfrey for whatever, you know, for. They, they didn't wait for governments to legitimate on, on anything. Because it's a right. It's a right. and we should fight for this right. It's a very basic, right. You know, there's something here that drives me nuts. Not because I'm a proponent of this particular thing.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about, the, you know, the mushrooms, Silas, containing psilocybin, I don't know how you pronounce it. Psilocybin, the magic mushroom. Right. So yes, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to say I'm for or against, but in France it's forbidden to pick it. Well, sorry, I bug right in my mind. I just cannot tolerate that. I cannot tolerate that. There can be police force that is waiting for me out of a field and looking if I'm going to pick one of those mushrooms and if I do right, they can arrest me. I'm sorry, this is just unacceptable to me.
[00:30:25] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:30:26] Unknown:
I don't know how I started with that idea. Sorry.
[00:30:28] Unknown:
I love how you say it's a basic right. We've always been doing herbal medicine. It's like as old as humankind. So it's really strange to regulate it so strictly. And I think one of the culprits is that at least in Belgium, because we don't have like an official license, what happens is that there are no herbal education system like herbal schools that are licensed. So we even have schools now that say, well, if you just do three evenings, you can call yourself a herbalist, which is, you know, it's rubbish.
[00:31:07] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. Which, and that's why, we could wait for governments, to pass laws and to manage us. Or we could also get together in associations and trade groups. And set the bar. And I think the guilds in America, in Quebec, these are the two models I know, they've been putting the bar very high. Because if you do this work, you want to defend this job that you're doing, and you want to show the world that you can be trusted. And maybe we can do that even better than the government. So since it's not coming from our authorities, then maybe we can self manage and create labels. Of course, there's all kinds of risk of, the profession sort of, being biased toward itself. I'm aware of that.
But mostly what we're seeing is that it's a group of people who will set the bar very high and will deliver stamps of approval that can be trusted. So I have hope that this model, in a first step, can show the government that we can be trusted. And once they see that, then they think, so maybe we can work with those groups to set up a national label. Just maybe. Right?
[00:32:36] Unknown:
What would be your advice to young people who are just studying, starting to study herbalism or starting out to practition or to work as a herbalist?
[00:32:49] Unknown:
Well, so many messages I would have for them. number one is your best teachers will be your clients. Or if you can call them, your patients. They will teach you. You're right out of the school. You're green, you need to ripen. You know nothing. You literally know nothing, right? Oh yeah. You think that St. John's wort can cure depression. Okay, go work with that condition and come back to me in a few years. So humility through working with real people with real problems. And that will be the best teacher in the world to help you to crystallize this very imperfect knowledge. You got in school and you're teaching in a school. Leave. I am teaching in school as well. I have my own school. So of course teaching is necessary.
The passing of information is necessary. But then you, you just beginning you have this information, you need to throw it out there and see how it bounces back. And that's how you will learn. Number two, you need to make money. I'm sorry, you need to live. how will you do that? Because. I'm sorry, it's hard, right? I'd like to tell you it's easy, but it's not, and, I went into it very, very naive and great. Right. It allowed me to just jump into it fully. But, you need to make a living. And the model that kind of works is to be multi activity. So if you want to practice and do consultations, then that will be one leg of your practice. But you will also need to teach and you might also need to write for a magazine that pays you, and you might also need to blah, blah, blah, maybe work in a store and so get ready for that. Right.
I think we need, this new generation to come and to really own the resource preservation issue. right. Me, I, I am, I'm, trying my best, but I still have my old biases of the, of the 2000s when, you know, full boom of, of herbs and adaptogens. And, and I was in the US too. So herbs from all over the world, you know, whatever she, Sandra, you don't grow it here, fine, you will. You know, we'll get it. And, and we had Chinese medicine, we had Ayurvedic practitioners, we had everything. And so, it was a different era. now I think we're getting into a, period where we really need to think about availability of the resource and replacements, of certain plants. Here in France, we've been talking a lot, for instance, about how to replace adaptogens. And I'm like, wow, that's quite interesting. I mean, thanks God we can grow very easily, grow our own adaptogens like ashwagandha. Now we have ashwagandha growers here in France. So that's, that's fantastic. but is there something that grows locally in our ecosystem that we could use? So here in France we started to talk about maybe, angelica root, or, you know, can we do something with a mix of gentian and angelica and some aromatics, stimulant herbs. And so I like it because we have the opportunity to write a new page of the herbal practice. Right. So this young generation, I think is going to be very exciting to them.
They are carrying a lot on their shoulders because unfortunately we've been telling them, you know, this mess out there, we did it. Now you own it. Go figure it out. So I think it's such a weight, it's crazy. And we've been passing that to them. So I'd like to spin, the lighter and happier side of it. That is going to be full of opportunity as well to reinvent ourselves. And herbal practice belongs to that.
[00:37:19] Unknown:
That is such a good advice that you're giving here. I wish I had kind of advice when started out. It was a long time ago, but.
[00:37:30] Unknown:
Yes, we belong to the old generation.
[00:37:33] Unknown:
There were like almost no professional herbalists in the whole of Belgium. I was, yeah, there was like almost no one to, to look up to or to. To exchange views with or ideas with. So I, I really like how over the past years it has been really growing a lot.
[00:37:51] Unknown:
Yeah. And me, you know, I'm, I'm so grateful that I was well connected in the US because the US has lots of elders who started in the 70s and people who have the maturity to give us those messages for the future. I'm a big fan of the David Winston and of course Rosemary Gladstar. I mean all those people have been very, inspiring to me. and we have a few people here in Europe. Maybe they are a little less vocal. have you been interviewing Henriette Kress yet?
[00:38:37] Unknown:
Yes, yes. I have, yes.
[00:38:41] Unknown:
but yeah, I think we now need the voice of the elders to help us write this, this new page of the herbal practice, you know?
[00:38:55] Unknown:
Yes. So, you have started your own school, Altea Provence. This is one of the most poignant questions for me. How easy is it in France to have like a good quality herbal education? I mean, there is your school, are there any other schools? Many schools. Is it like a very common thing? how is that situation?
[00:39:22] Unknown:
We have a handful of the old herbal schools. They were mostly created in the 70s and 80s, some early 90s, I think. And they teach traditional French herbalism. You know, it's very solid, education. Each of the school has their own particular spin on it and style. For instance, there's a school in the south of France who has a Chinese medicine view of the practice as an example. and then around that you're starting to see a bunch of smaller schools creating new curriculums. but that's fairly recent. Me, I started in 2015. And I brought a very.
Not weird, but I brought my unusual baggage with me, which was a mix of American plus French. That was different back then, is still different today. and I think the new schools that are starting to appear, they all bring their own style to it. Some will specialize maybe more in women conditions and some more on naturopathy with a herbal spin. and me, I've been focusing more on working with real problems and real people, which I see it almost as where the traditional French schools stop their curriculum. You know, that's where I take off and I take the students to the place where they can practice over the month. And you know, not diagnosed because of course, forbidden word, but find the strength and weaknesses of the person, formulate a program, and then refine and iterate, throughout the months and sometimes the years. but yeah, so as a summary, a handful of schools created in 70s and 80s, and then maybe very recently a bunch of new schools starting to appear, but fairly recent.
[00:41:45] Unknown:
What I'm wondering also is, do you see a growing number of medical professionals following your courses? Like doctors, nurses, pharmacists.
[00:41:56] Unknown:
Well, so people doing my classes, my courses. so yeah, I've had doctors and pharmacists and, vets. that's a French word. animal doctors. Yes, veterinarians. Yeah, yeah. so people from the medical profession. Maybe it's 10 of my students. and then, yeah, nurses, doulas and the, the trick is really, then what do you do with that knowledge and how do you integrate it within your medical profession? If you belong to the medical profession, how do you integrate it? And it's even harder for them because they are watched all the time, you know, a lot more than, than us. Us, we, we still have a lot of freedom. But if you're in the medical profession, gosh, you have the, you know, the, the, the order of the doctors, the order of the pharmacists that are constantly monitoring. And one of your colleague, Dr. Could, put you in front of the, their tribunals because God forbid, instead of prescribing an antibiotic, you've been prescribing, you know, whatever andrographis or whatever herbivore you could use to replace that. So, I think at the moment they're very eager to learn. They're starting to very carefully integrate some of it in their practice. But it's very slow and very careful and sometimes a little, a little hidden on the side. Because there's risk.
[00:43:32] Unknown:
Yes. If I hear you well, there is a lot of fear underneath going on.
[00:43:37] Unknown:
Yeah, there is. and that's, also a message I'd like to have been trying to send over the French side because myself, I kind of, I exhausted myself with, with fear. I'm so tired of it. I, I think I don't have it in me anymore. And I, I like to say that, you know, over, over with fear. Let's, let's move on now. Let's, let's do, let's practice what we know. And yeah, there are risks. Yeah, yeah. But the, the more we are, the, the more we'll be accepted. And So I don't know if it's very wise. Wise for me to. To say that, but I think we're reaching a point where, staying hidden is not doing us any service.
The more we stay hidden and the more the government will say they don't exist. You know, there's a few quarks here and there. No, no, no. We need to show we are numbers. And so enough with the fear. I'm tired with fear. And I hope that this younger generation we've been talking about will start a practice without it with more confidence and show, what they can do. But yeah, there's some of it still today. Yeah.
[00:45:00] Unknown:
Yes, I think that's a very liberating thought to let go of fear. And Yes, what I have seen in those years that I am a herbalist, that if I look back at, myself 20 years ago, I was keeping very low profile, just not to draw any attention to myself. And just like doing it hidden and secretly because I was too afraid of what the government would say or would think. And I really think I see that change over the past few years that people, say, hey, I'm a herbalist and this is what I do. And yes, there are some, legal regulations, but, but I know my profession and I know what I'm doing. And I can be trusted.
[00:45:48] Unknown:
That's right. And here we've been working with law, firms through our associations because thanks to our members, we've had some budget. So we've been hiring, some lawyers who are helping us to define what are the risks exactly and how to mitigate those risks. What kind of document to keep, what's not to write down, what kind of contract we could have signed by the client. And often when we present that work, it's a little scary. Because if you move to the point where you knew nothing about the law and you were quietly practicing, doing your own business, a bit hidden.
And all of a sudden you become aware of all those restrictions. It's scary, it's frustrating. And we've had, we have had, we've seen people say, well, you know, screw that, I'm tired of it. I may as well stop what I'm doing. And we say, no, no, no, no, no, hold on, hold on now. You know, and it's good now you have information and you can still choose what to, what to do with this information. You know, the lawyers, they're advising us to Have a little contract signed by our clients. So whenever I start a consultation, you know, I, I'm supposed to ask a client and say, listen, it's for your own good. It's for my own good as well. Can you sign this? And you can, you know, they can read it in advance. And sometimes I decide not to do it because it's inconvenient because I have this old person and because, because I decide to trust them. It's very flawed reasoning, for my part, but it's my choice to. I know the risk now. I do. But I choose not to have it signed. The lawyers, are saying, do not write down your recommendations. Well, you know what? Sometimes I write it, I put it in an email, I send the email. So of course you can trace it.
Right? But it's. I know the risk and it's my choice because maybe it's a teenager and the mother needs to receive it to make sure that he or she's taking it. And I like that, you know, the, the more we learn about the risk, the more we can decide what to do and not do fully knowing the risks, you know, so. Yes, so that's the model at the moment. I like it. It's a more mature model than, than just five years ago where I was just blindly doing everything. You know, when I stopped my business of selling seeds, you know, I ran that business for eight years and toward the end somebody told me, do you know what you're doing is illegal?
I was like, no way. And actually the way I was doing it was indeed probably back then illegal. I think at that point, if I, had continued the business, I would have investigated that and see how to be back into the legal framework. We need that information today or we'll be called quarks. That's the risk. And if we're called quarks, the government will decide to outlaw anything we do.
[00:49:13] Unknown:
Yes. And it also shows, I think, I think it's remarkable that you have to work with lawyers to know what you are allowed to do and what you have to be careful about. but I also think it shows, the importance of supporting one another because a lot of people get discouraged and they just. I see this, with my students from the Herbert School as well, that sometimes they graduate and I think, oh, this was a brilliant student. We'll hear about them. But then I meet them a couple of years afterwards and they tell me, oh, no, I didn't do anything with it. It was just too hard. And I felt all alone. And I always regret this. Really?
[00:50:01] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. We need to show success stories. I think that will inspire people and see that it is doable. But now me, I want to do it in a, realistic way because it's not easy. You're not going at it for the money. If you could get to the point where you're making the equivalent of a minimum wage, then good. Are you paying your bills? You're paying your bills. Good. Because you're doing the job you love. And you know, that's a first good step. and then yes, connecting and encouraging ourselves and protecting ourselves to one of our associations here in France. For growers, you know, the people growing and selling on markets, when they are being controlled by the government, they have, ah, a number of people they can call right away. And these are more senior people usually, or people in their region who also know the laws.
And they will come right away and they will be present during the control. And it's great because I'm not alone facing this, you know, aggressive government person. Because usually they're, they're, some are nice and some are a little aggressive and threatening. Well, now I'm not just by myself. I've got somebody else who also know the what, what I can do and not do and the gray areas and who will be here to, to support me. And I, I, I thought it was a great idea and maybe we should all do that.
[00:51:46] Unknown:
You know, That's a very good system. It seems very reassuring to have someone that has more experience than you around when you have this inspection. Yes, totally. Yes. Wow. All right, so if you would think about the future, like in 10 years or maybe in 50 years or in 100 years, how do you see the future of herbalism and in Europe?
[00:52:17] Unknown:
I think first of all, it's a celebration of our diversity. It cannot be centralized. It cannot be one big European system and regulation and style, and curriculum being pushed down into the different regions. I think all the countries, all the regions, they have their richness and diversity. And so what I'd love to see is this richness of practice, and this patchwork of practitioners who can exchange data and experience about different plans. So that we can all enrich each other. I mean, one thing that has been literally obsessing me because I've been studying all the classics here in France. You know, we don't have a lot of classic books, but I think I have most of them. And I think I have been reading most of them several times.
And I'm like, that's all we have. What are we going to do? What, aren't we supposed to now? And we have hundreds of books being published on, you know, herbalism and sorry. I mean, frankly, they're totally unexciting and they bring nothing new. What are we going to bring? You know, what's. So again, writing that new page of, herbal practice. And I think we need to work alongside the medical profession. I don't want to fight. I don't want to see a fight. I don't want to say. I never ever said, you know, they bad us good. I think this is childish.
[00:54:08] Unknown:
Polarization is just not constructive.
[00:54:11] Unknown:
Yes. So of course they will be here, and I hope we're still here, but learning to work alongside, some doctors here in France are already sending us a lot of their patients because they don't have the bandwidth. You know, your sleep issues. Okay, we tried that pill and then we tried that pill and you're still not sleeping well. You know what? I'm gonna give you a name. Digestive issues like ibs, you know, they have no solution. all the slow, chronic, degenerative, all the metabolic issues. Yeah. Send them to us because you're not able to handle them.
here. If you want to have an appointment with a doctor. I mean, it's crazy. Sometimes it takes months to have a first appointment. Not to mention dentists and dermatologists and all of that. I mean, it's just they don't have the bandwidth anymore. So I think it's a win win. I don't see it. I don't see how it's not a win win, actually. You know, it's still beyond me why there's such attempt to protect. To protect. It's all those old models are based out of fear. I'm, of the medical profession. Nobody can come onto my turf, you know, stay out of it.
And, it needs to change. And I think we are here. We can help the medical profession tremendously. they just need to see that.
[00:55:47] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. And I think what you just said, especially for chronicle conditions that modern medicine doesn't always know what to do with. It cannot help people on long term. And I think sometimes it's frustrating for herbalists because sometimes people come to them and they say, I have tried everything. three doctors, all these kinds of medicines with a lot of side effects. And I'm not sure what to do now anymore. I'm completely hopeless. So now I'm open to trying herbs. And then I think it could have been the other way around. You know, that you're trying herbs as a first thing that you're doing, and then maybe you never have to take the antibiotics or the things with lots of side effects. You can just start with. Of course, you know, if people run under a car. Yes, go to modern medicine right away, go to the hospital.
But I mean, in so many conditions, we could try herbs first and then move on to other kinds of medicine whenever needed.
[00:56:49] Unknown:
Yeah. And even beyond that, I think what we're doing, our value is that as we work with them from month to month, we're actually teaching them to listen to themselves and take control over the condition. And you've seen those clients, right? At some point they start to listen to what they feel, they start to see the difference it makes to take this herb and not that herb, and they're gonna try things without telling you. And at some point they're almost independent. And I think that's what we teach them. Sorry, it's, it's, it's a messy thought process in my head because I have so many things I'd like to say, like the, the fact that we, we don't know in advance what is going to work, which is the most frustrating thing in the world. What do you mean? Meadow Sweet is not helping with your joint pain? Right.
Why it should. Right. We, we, we're teaching that and we've been taught that. Right. Meadow Sweet should work well for some people. It doesn't, it's going to be another herb. Why? you know, you can explain it different way. The only explanation I have is that I don't know that person yet. And me, I need four to six months for a chronic condition. And I tell them right away today. You know, when I was younger, I was a little concerned to tell them because I'm like, well, if I tell them I need four to six months to work with them, they're going to see that they need to pay me for several consultation and then there'll be the cost of the herbs and they'll want to have quicker results.
And of course, very often we do have quicker results. We do have those people coming back a month later and say, you know what, I feel much better, thank you. That's it. Okay. But on average for chronic degenerative conditions, I need four to six months to see how that person react to this, this or that herb. And along the way I, will be passing some knowledge on to them so that they can start a write down to keep, a little diary A journal to listen to themselves and then to see that, oh, I ate that. You know, I was. I went to a restaurant, I ate that, and I, I see that it created inflammation crisis. I never noticed. And.
And at some point we can tell them, you understand the method now, keep going.
[00:59:25] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And I think it's people sometimes they're so. Well, the mainstream thinking is really the one size fits all method. And I think this is so interesting about working with herbs. I work as a wild plant food teacher, and so people ask me, yes, but how. How much nettles can I eat on a daily basis? And I'm like, listen to the reaction of your own body. I mean, I can be very enthusiastic about, some plant and telling you about the benefits of it, but if you take it and you feel every time you get nausea or you get, you know, pain in your. In your stomach, then this may not be the right plant for you. It's like, you know, drinking coffee. Some people can, drink six cups of coffee every day. Some people can only have two SIPs and have heart palpitations. So it's really depending on the person. And I think we have to reframe our thinking for that, because mainstream is so, yeah, one size fits all. And this is healthy, and this is not healthy. But what works for one person doesn't work for another person.
[01:00:39] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, exactly. It's still. It's still a, mystery to me why there's still, to this, to this day, in my practice, so much variation from one person to the next for what appears to be the same condition with the same herb and the same form and dosage from the same supplier to this day. And you can tell me, well, you know, it's energetics or, you know, what, it's this or the combination, of constituent and. And I'm like, I think it's. It's more like, who is this person? Who are you?
[01:01:19] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:01:20] Unknown:
And the first time I see you, I have no idea. You know, you come to me with Lyme disease or fibromyalgia. Like, I have no idea what I'm gonna do. I have no idea what I'm gonna recommend. Well, don't you have a protocol for Lyme disease? Aren't you working with the, the Buhner this. Aren't you working with the. Actually, no. You know, today it's like, blank page. Because whenever I, Whenever I tried to start with the protocol from this or that person, at some point, it didn't work. So.
[01:01:55] Unknown:
And I think the beauty of that is also that what you previously said, it is like the celebration of diversity of life?
[01:02:04] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that is right.
[01:02:09] Unknown:
Is there anything else you would like to add, something we haven't discussed yet, but that you really want to spread the word about?
[01:02:20] Unknown:
Yeah. For those people who are starting to practice just accepting what we've been talking about, accepting that it's a very iterative process. Accepting that maybe for one, two, three months you will see again the person and you will. You will ask that dreaded question. So, how are you feeling? What are the progress? Be prepared that sometimes they will say nothing. Not much. Be comfortable with what you're doing. And I'm saying that because I went through it in my first years of practice. It is fucking uncomfortable. Sorry again, pardon my French, but it is very uncomfortable. You don't want to hear that, but you will. You will. And you'll have to weather this and be comfortable with yourself and who you are. M.
And that will teach you some very valuable lessons. It didn't work. Why didn't it work? Okay. And then move on to the next step. I wish I had somebody who had told me all of this when I started. And, also for the future, I'm going to send this cry for help is everywhere. We need to have apprenticeships. I wish I had been an apprentice of someone when I started. I couldn't find that I had. I had no access to mentors and masters. Right. And, I think in France, at some point, we'll. We'll try to put that in place. It. We're still a few years away, but I hope in all the countries we can go back to a system where you will be the apprentice of somebody who knows for maybe a couple of years, and then you will learn so much faster.
[01:04:16] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:04:16] Unknown:
Meanwhile, accept that you don't know.
[01:04:20] Unknown:
All right. Thank you so much, Christopher. So if people want to learn, more about your work, about Altier Provence, where can they find some more info?
[01:04:31] Unknown:
it's all centralized on my website, which is www.altia provence. I think we'll spell it out right on. On. I don't know if you'll put it.
[01:04:42] Unknown:
In the show notes.
[01:04:42] Unknown:
In the show notes. All right.com from the website, you can see my YouTube, channel, which of course is in French. So I'm not sure it's going to be of much help. you can ask us some questions through the contact forms and, post comments and questions below every article. And me and my team were here to help you.
[01:05:04] Unknown:
All right. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.
[01:05:08] Unknown:
Thank you, Lu.
[01:05:09] Unknown:
Thank you, Wildling, for listening to this episode. I hope to. To see you, back in the next one. And in the meantime, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. A warm thank you for listening. Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media. Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com. Thank you so much.
[00:00:26] Unknown:
Much.
[00:00:31] Unknown:
Welcome to Wild, the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and. And plants. And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Hello, Wildy. Welcome to a new episode of the Wild podcast. And today I have with me Christophe Bernard. He's a renowned French herbalist, educator, founder of Altea Provence, with decades of experience in herbal medicine and a deep passion for foraging and natural healing. He empowers people to reconnect with the healing powers of plants.
And Christophe also advocates for the legalization and recognition of herbalism in France, working to preserve this rich tradition for future generations. Welcome, Christophe.
[00:02:49] Unknown:
Thank you. I love the way you pronounce my name. I saw you made some effort to pronounce it the French way, so nice. Thank you.
[00:02:56] Unknown:
Yes. I'm in Belgium, so it's like my second language. So, yes. So, Christophe, let's get started on, how your journey with herbs started. what inspired you to follow this path, and how did you acquire all your skills and all your knowledge?
[00:03:17] Unknown:
well, I think what inspired me was my past as a child. I'm, very reminiscent of the 70s, when I was born here in the south of France. And, you know, I grew up in a traditional countryside family, and nobody talked about nature, but we just did a lot of Things in nature. so I spent my weekend with my grandpa or my aunts or, you know, some other family members picking lavender or picking thyme or doing decoration with wild plants. And, you know, then it was linden season, so we picked the linden on the trees. And then it was mushroom season. And, every week there was something.
And, I just loved it, but without noticing much because it was just something you did. and then I studied science. I, loved it. I was a computer geek for most of my life. Actually, the first part of my life, I fell in love with computer programming. So. Sorry. That was my first job and my first love. And, I did that since I. Until I was in my 30s. And, at some point I was, living in the U.S. working in the U.S. in California as a good computer engineer. Sorry for the cliche, but, you know, and I, think all this, all this past came back to me because I was missing my family. I was missing Provence.
And I was thinking, how can I just go back there? What would I do? I didn't see myself, continuing as an engineer. And then I just. One day I saw myself preparing little tea bags with wild herbs. And, I'm telling the truth. It literally came out of the blue one day as I was napping on my lawn in San Diego. Sunny San Diego, California. It just came to me. And then I thought, wow, okay, why not? And I bought a few books. And I'm a very, I'm a very manual guy. I need to always do what I read about. So immediately I started to pick and grow and make a lot of tinctures and syrups and stuff. And then the house was full of it. And then, you know how it goes.
Your friends start to give you advice and, start to ask you for advice. And, at some point I studied plants, in the U.S. and to this day, when I educate myself, I still have this bond with the US Because I love the diversity, you know, the integration of east and west and the different traditions. So, to this day, I still train myself in online programs in the U.S. but, so we were in the years, I think 2000, maybe five or something like this. And I, guess the new career started at this point, in parallel to my traditional job. And then at some point I quit the job and I went full time into herbs in a very naive way, because I just, you know, saw myself just living off of the land and picking herbs and selling them and everything would be fine and money would.
Would Come and. Well, it took a while, it took a while of trying different things, different businesses. Some were total flops. You know, I, I tried to open a herb store, in 2017, 18. It didn't work out. Some, to my surprise, were success. I, I sold my seeds. I, I had a seed store for about eight years and the whole family worked on it. It was, it was great. We loved it. I am I am teaching. I'm still doing that. So that's a paying side of the job. And what was the most successful was that in 2010 I started a blog, because I needed to put down my, My thoughts. And the blog has slowly, has been growing every year. and I think it's one of the most read on the French side today.
regarding medicinal plants. Really, it's like we have a, we have a huge traffic. And I say we because now I have my. A small team of people helping me. the YouTube channel did great as well since we, we went beyond the. The millions million subscribers in 2023, I think maybe this year, I don't remember. and so that public side of my activities became a real success. So I guess I kind of became as well a public figure for plants. And people came to ask me to participate in different projects and associations. And in 2018 we had a senator in France who tried to help us to legalize some aspects of our business.
So I was pulled into that a bit. And and so, which is kind of exciting because over the last, I would say four or five years, we, We've been really working together all the different, careers, I would say around medicinal plants, all different jobs around medicinal plants. From the pickers to the growers, to the transformers, the labs to the practitioners, we all have been. Created our own associations to represent this part of plants and fighting to be recognized. And we're also talking to each other, which is a big change from the past, because we all worked kind of hidden, kind of fearful of the government finding us, and suing us. A while it's been a little. Sometimes it was concerning.
I would say it's getting better. Although now I think we kind of going back. So this whole story we're seeing all our different countries. So. Sorry, as usual, as you will see, I take a lot of tangents. You will ask me a question and I will go somewhere else.
[00:09:41] Unknown:
Totally fine. Yes. I actually started thinking about the topic of herbalism in France after somebody told me that their grandfather moved to France when he was a young man, because, he found a job there. And it was a job as a herbalist in a pharmacy. And apparently like, 100 years ago, this was quite a common thing, that in a pharmacy, you had a herbalist working there alongside with a pharmacist, advising people what herbs they can use, how they could use them.
[00:10:15] Unknown:
Yeah. And, you know, that was the only. The only job. If you look at all the different jobs in medicinal plants, There was one that was recognized by the government until the second world war. But the only job was what we called herborista, which in France means the person selling herbs in a store and also giving you advice, on the counter. Right. so that job was recognized. There was a certificate that delivered by the government. It was under the, the. The responsibility of the pharmacist. I mean, the. That certificate, you know, it was. It. It was. It belonged to the university of. Of. Of pharmacy in. In different cities. and so that job was recognized and then all the others were. Were not. but people still did it, you know.
So my job, which is. I'm going to use a dirty word, you know, clinical herbalist. And if I say that in. In French, of course, I never say that because otherwise in France, clinical means of the medical profession. Right?
[00:11:23] Unknown:
Yes. I think that is quite similar in Belgium actually, because, I recently spoke to someone who, did an education for medical, herbalism in the UK and she said, now I live in Belgium and I have a practice, but actually I'm not allowed to have a practice. The Belgian government does not know what to do with me because, well, my education is bachelor level. So they know that I had a good education, but they really don't know what to do with it because there is no legal framework around it.
[00:11:54] Unknown:
It's terrible. And actually, I mean, I know the US Quite a bit because I lived there, but there is no framework in the US if you're a herbalist. there's no diploma, there's no degree, official degree, that gives you rights. Right. but the system tolerates you more or less. and I would say in France today, there's certainly not any diploma, that's for sure. And, the naturopath paved the way, I would say, in starting from the 70s and 80s. And today there are lots of naturopaths in different cities in France. and that's quite popular. The schools are well known. And so they kind of paid the way, we came way, way after that. And of Course, we have a slightly different practice, we herbalists and what we're trying to do today through associations that, that look like the American or the guild in Quebec, the American Guild of Herbalists or the Quebec Guild of Herbalists, were trying to say that we exist and we can be trusted and we put a very high bar to the quality of our work. And we're not doctors, we're not pharmacists, and we know our place.
And you know, we're just starting to do that. Yes.
[00:13:24] Unknown:
What I'm also wondering is what you said that, there was kind of a, discontinuation of the legalization of the profession herbalist, during the Second World War. What exactly happened there? How.
[00:13:40] Unknown:
Yeah, it should have gone way, way before that. It's because in the 1800s there was constant wars between, the lobby of the pharmacists and the lobby of the herbalists in France. Right. And again, you have to remember that we're talking about the job of the person who sells herb at a counter. So it looks like, you know, it's related to health. And you sell herbs and. Yeah, you, you compete with pharmacists in a sense. I mean, indirectly you do. Anyway, so the pharmacists never tolerated that. So in the 1800s there was all kinds of pressure on the government. But the government didn't, you know, cede to the pressure, didn't do anything. And then finally they did under Marshal Petain during the Second World War, the lobby of the pharmacists finally obtained, what they wanted.
But everybody's saying it should have happened before because it was such a long cycle of pressure that it's a miracle that this job could continue till that point. And then at that point the government didn't deliver certificates anymore. so the herb stores for a while were mostly, I would say managed by pharmacists. But even that is a simplification because a pharmacist has to have a traditional pharmacy along with the herb store if he or she wants to have a herb store. So it's quite a mess. but what people started to do is that we have a law that allows you to sell, about 140 plants. they've been, taken out of the pharmacist, lobby.
[00:15:41] Unknown:
Like free plants?
[00:15:43] Unknown:
Yeah, that's right.
[00:15:45] Unknown:
Previously with Francois Coupon, and he told me the same, that you have this list of free plants that can be used.
[00:15:51] Unknown:
So we have, I think it's 138 today. And we're going to have more because our associations have been working toward obtaining more. However, here's the condition. You sell them without any indications.
[00:16:05] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:16:06] Unknown:
Right. So I sell you nettles and you say like, well, what is it for? And you're like, nettles? Well, what can I do with it? It's nettles. Thank you. So of course nobody does that in practice because we're here to serve our customers, to help them. So yeah, if you go on a market and you have the small producer who's been picking his, you know, nettles and it's got big bag of nettles and if you ask her or him, then yeah, they will say it's full of minerals and it can probably help you if you have joint pain and inflammation and etc. Etc. So it's a very hypocritical system because everybody knows, everybody knows it, everybody knows that you cannot do your job, if you don't give indication. It's the same in a herb store. So you have herb stores today that are that are open and managed by non pharmacists, but they're not supposed to give you indication on all the plants.
[00:17:09] Unknown:
And that's for the situation in Belgium, actually. like, even if you have like a herbal tea tisan and it says like evening tea or something, they're already, they're not so happy with this because it indicates that it helps you to get a better sleep. And it's kind of confusing because at one point the government seems to say herbs don't work. And on the other side they say herbs are dangerous. So it's kind of.
[00:17:37] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. And in here, in France we have such a tradition around, herbal teas infusions. You know, when I was in the US we were working mostly with tinctures because I mean, it's so rare that you do teaspoon. Exception with the famous mineral infusions with nettles and all that, and Susan Weed and Rosemary Gladstar and all those people who talked about it. But otherwise it was mostly tincture formulations. And here in France we do a lot of work, with tea formulations. Me, that's how I create my formulas. It's per liter and I have people weigh each herb and make their own mix for, you know, a month, blah, blah, blah. I mean that's, that's how I work. I work with of course, tinctures and capsules, but I like working with teas. So that's one of the laws Right. Leaf. So hold on.
Then we have another law that comes from Europe and you're also submitted to it. It's a supplements law, right?
[00:18:39] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:18:39] Unknown:
And in the supplements law you have like 600 plants and you're like hooray, yes, now I can sell 600. Okay, well it's gotta be in the, in the supplement form. Which means it's pre dosed. Right. It, it cannot be bulk. So if it's a powder, it comes with a little scoop. If it's a, ah, capsules then you, you have to say you know, three to four per day. And if it's a tincture, you have to say whatever, 60 drops twice a day. So the supplements law applies to supplements. By definition they need to be pre dozable. and the only indications you can give on those products under the supplement law are the indications that have been submitted to the eu, but they haven't been approved yet. Which is again, it's such a nightmare. It's ridiculous. We don't even have approved indications. We have a database of submitted and in waiting indication and they were never ever processed by the eu. They were never looked at, they were never approved.
So in a country, in my country, in France, when you have the government doing a check on your products, right. So you're selling a tincture and it's Escalia tincture. So Escalzia, California poppy. Yeah, you can sell it, it's listed in this law. And maybe you want to put indications on this little bottle. Well, if you do, they will check it against the list of submitted indications that even haven't been approved. And then they will, they will use their own judgment and then depending on the controller, they gonna make a decision different from another controller. They're gonna look at different database. It's crazy.
So the people selling the supplements, I mean either you're a big lab with lawyers or if you're a small maker, then it's very complicated. You almost have to have a lawyer helping you to make sense out of it. Yeah.
[00:21:02] Unknown:
And you know what is really funny about this? I see with people in Belgium, they think about France as the promised land for herbalists because we think about fields full of lavender.
[00:21:16] Unknown:
Oh yeah, we do have that artisan.
[00:21:18] Unknown:
Markets where people sell their herbal soaps and everything. But they always surprise when I tell them actually the status of herbalists and the legal status of herbalists in France is pretty similar to in Belgium and probably even stricter.
[00:21:35] Unknown:
It's very strict. But the difference and Again, welcome to France. The difference is that the French people are also. They can be very militant. So I'm afraid that there are the rules and then there is what we do with the rules. Right. That's typical of France. And if you push the French a little too far, and if they feel it's unjust at some point, and, sorry, I'm going to say a very bad word, but they will say, fuck the rules.
[00:22:05] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:22:05] Unknown:
Yeah. And, unfortunately, the government is not seeing that. Unfortunately, by trying to restrict and restrict again and again, that is what they are starting to create. And, that is not good. So we're all hoping that the government will see that and they will jump back into the discussions, just like in Quebec, what they did 10 years ago, where the guild in Quebec was in such a. Interesting position to talk to the government and to be used as a trusted partner to make decision about plants and their properties. We'd, like this model to come to France one day. We're very far from that. But, hey.
[00:22:53] Unknown:
Yes. let me share a little bit more about my own experience as a herbal teacher. So, I've started teaching in 2002, and I was teaching, for one of the main schools of herbalism we have here in Flanders in Belgium. And, one of the things I did. So, the students had to write a paper at the end, on one of the herbal topics that they chose. And, well, in Belgium, we have these long lists of forbidden herbs. they cannot be sold on the market, they cannot be used. They cannot even be prescribed by medical professionals. and sometimes in these papers, there would be a mention of, like, you know, ground ivy.
You know, it's. I know it's used in France, in Germany, in the uk, in Belgium. This is a, completely forbidden plant. yes. And so I remember having this discussion, also with myself, because as a school, well, of course, obviously I was working for the school as a freelancer. They told me, yes, you have to ask the students to change these chapters where these herbs are mentioned. Because if we ever want to have an official regulation of a herbalist school, we cannot write about these herbs that are not allowed. And I always give the feedback to my students, hey, you have to change this because this is not a legal plant in Belgium to use freely.
but now looking back, I think, well, maybe because, you know, the story was always, well, maybe one day we will have an official regulation. And now I think, no, we don't have to wait until. We will one day get the official regulation, it won't come by itself. We have to actively work towards it. And this is something that I see. Over the last couple of years, a lot of more students are actually studying herbalism, which makes it, easier, I think. I think more people are open to it and more people are having this rebellious side of kicking against the system of, hey, you have to hear us. We are here. we want to do what we are trained to do, actually.
[00:25:21] Unknown:
Yeah. And we're not kids. We're not children. We can make the difference, the difference between a nettle infusion and poke root. We can be taught what poke root does and not poison ourselves with it. We're not kids. So, I'd like. Yeah, I think what you're saying is quite wise. we need to teach herbs. We need to teach all of them. Otherwise it will get lost. The practice already. Already got lost already. Yes. Right. Compared to 30, 40 years ago, we lost a tremendous amount of experience, not of data. You know, I have data on poke root, but would I be able to use it the right way?
And who will teach me? Who will show me? Of course, no one. Because it's forbidden plant. I don't want to lose that. Because we may one day use and need that information.
[00:26:17] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And, it's kind of funny how things change over the years because I see more and more herbalists becoming more rebellious, putting more question marks to the whole system. And actually what I was wondering because I have been interviewing quite some, herbalists throughout Europe, herbalists in the uk, in the north of, of Europe, in the south of Europe, in the east of Europe and in the middle of Europe. And what I see is that like, every country has their own regulation. And some countries it's like borderline illegal to practice, like in our countries. In other countries, there is an official license. In other countries, it's not licensed at all. Because everybody is still doing this. They may not even have a word for herbalist because everybody is still doing it.
Like you don't have a word for a bakery when everybody's still baking their own bread. And what I'm thinking is there is a whole, area of diversity here, but should we actually connect more and exchange experiences and exchange, you know, talk about our activism together? This, this is a question I'm asking myself.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
Oh, yeah, well, you're starting to do that with, with your podcast. And, I participated in, an initiative from the uk, with UK practitioners that Are starting to do that as well. And reaching out to different countries in Europe to share knowledge and see how we could help each other. I think the point they made was during the COVID pandemic, those who had rich, network could very quickly connect and get access to very useful resources and herbal resources. And there were many reasons to connect, but one is strength. Strength in the numbers. And so yeah, I would be, personally, I would be all for that.
and I think we can also, share best practices regarding how we work. We try to work with our respective governments, those that are still open. But you know, also what I was thinking as you were talking is that in the countryside, you know, people, simple people, simple families, they have always used herbs in my countries, always in your country as well. Nobody told them it was. They had the right to do this or that right. They didn't, they didn't care. So here they used ash leaves for joint pain and they used comfrey for whatever, you know, for. They, they didn't wait for governments to legitimate on, on anything. Because it's a right. It's a right. and we should fight for this right. It's a very basic, right. You know, there's something here that drives me nuts. Not because I'm a proponent of this particular thing.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about, the, you know, the mushrooms, Silas, containing psilocybin, I don't know how you pronounce it. Psilocybin, the magic mushroom. Right. So yes, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to say I'm for or against, but in France it's forbidden to pick it. Well, sorry, I bug right in my mind. I just cannot tolerate that. I cannot tolerate that. There can be police force that is waiting for me out of a field and looking if I'm going to pick one of those mushrooms and if I do right, they can arrest me. I'm sorry, this is just unacceptable to me.
[00:30:25] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:30:26] Unknown:
I don't know how I started with that idea. Sorry.
[00:30:28] Unknown:
I love how you say it's a basic right. We've always been doing herbal medicine. It's like as old as humankind. So it's really strange to regulate it so strictly. And I think one of the culprits is that at least in Belgium, because we don't have like an official license, what happens is that there are no herbal education system like herbal schools that are licensed. So we even have schools now that say, well, if you just do three evenings, you can call yourself a herbalist, which is, you know, it's rubbish.
[00:31:07] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. Which, and that's why, we could wait for governments, to pass laws and to manage us. Or we could also get together in associations and trade groups. And set the bar. And I think the guilds in America, in Quebec, these are the two models I know, they've been putting the bar very high. Because if you do this work, you want to defend this job that you're doing, and you want to show the world that you can be trusted. And maybe we can do that even better than the government. So since it's not coming from our authorities, then maybe we can self manage and create labels. Of course, there's all kinds of risk of, the profession sort of, being biased toward itself. I'm aware of that.
But mostly what we're seeing is that it's a group of people who will set the bar very high and will deliver stamps of approval that can be trusted. So I have hope that this model, in a first step, can show the government that we can be trusted. And once they see that, then they think, so maybe we can work with those groups to set up a national label. Just maybe. Right?
[00:32:36] Unknown:
What would be your advice to young people who are just studying, starting to study herbalism or starting out to practition or to work as a herbalist?
[00:32:49] Unknown:
Well, so many messages I would have for them. number one is your best teachers will be your clients. Or if you can call them, your patients. They will teach you. You're right out of the school. You're green, you need to ripen. You know nothing. You literally know nothing, right? Oh yeah. You think that St. John's wort can cure depression. Okay, go work with that condition and come back to me in a few years. So humility through working with real people with real problems. And that will be the best teacher in the world to help you to crystallize this very imperfect knowledge. You got in school and you're teaching in a school. Leave. I am teaching in school as well. I have my own school. So of course teaching is necessary.
The passing of information is necessary. But then you, you just beginning you have this information, you need to throw it out there and see how it bounces back. And that's how you will learn. Number two, you need to make money. I'm sorry, you need to live. how will you do that? Because. I'm sorry, it's hard, right? I'd like to tell you it's easy, but it's not, and, I went into it very, very naive and great. Right. It allowed me to just jump into it fully. But, you need to make a living. And the model that kind of works is to be multi activity. So if you want to practice and do consultations, then that will be one leg of your practice. But you will also need to teach and you might also need to write for a magazine that pays you, and you might also need to blah, blah, blah, maybe work in a store and so get ready for that. Right.
I think we need, this new generation to come and to really own the resource preservation issue. right. Me, I, I am, I'm, trying my best, but I still have my old biases of the, of the 2000s when, you know, full boom of, of herbs and adaptogens. And, and I was in the US too. So herbs from all over the world, you know, whatever she, Sandra, you don't grow it here, fine, you will. You know, we'll get it. And, and we had Chinese medicine, we had Ayurvedic practitioners, we had everything. And so, it was a different era. now I think we're getting into a, period where we really need to think about availability of the resource and replacements, of certain plants. Here in France, we've been talking a lot, for instance, about how to replace adaptogens. And I'm like, wow, that's quite interesting. I mean, thanks God we can grow very easily, grow our own adaptogens like ashwagandha. Now we have ashwagandha growers here in France. So that's, that's fantastic. but is there something that grows locally in our ecosystem that we could use? So here in France we started to talk about maybe, angelica root, or, you know, can we do something with a mix of gentian and angelica and some aromatics, stimulant herbs. And so I like it because we have the opportunity to write a new page of the herbal practice. Right. So this young generation, I think is going to be very exciting to them.
They are carrying a lot on their shoulders because unfortunately we've been telling them, you know, this mess out there, we did it. Now you own it. Go figure it out. So I think it's such a weight, it's crazy. And we've been passing that to them. So I'd like to spin, the lighter and happier side of it. That is going to be full of opportunity as well to reinvent ourselves. And herbal practice belongs to that.
[00:37:19] Unknown:
That is such a good advice that you're giving here. I wish I had kind of advice when started out. It was a long time ago, but.
[00:37:30] Unknown:
Yes, we belong to the old generation.
[00:37:33] Unknown:
There were like almost no professional herbalists in the whole of Belgium. I was, yeah, there was like almost no one to, to look up to or to. To exchange views with or ideas with. So I, I really like how over the past years it has been really growing a lot.
[00:37:51] Unknown:
Yeah. And me, you know, I'm, I'm so grateful that I was well connected in the US because the US has lots of elders who started in the 70s and people who have the maturity to give us those messages for the future. I'm a big fan of the David Winston and of course Rosemary Gladstar. I mean all those people have been very, inspiring to me. and we have a few people here in Europe. Maybe they are a little less vocal. have you been interviewing Henriette Kress yet?
[00:38:37] Unknown:
Yes, yes. I have, yes.
[00:38:41] Unknown:
but yeah, I think we now need the voice of the elders to help us write this, this new page of the herbal practice, you know?
[00:38:55] Unknown:
Yes. So, you have started your own school, Altea Provence. This is one of the most poignant questions for me. How easy is it in France to have like a good quality herbal education? I mean, there is your school, are there any other schools? Many schools. Is it like a very common thing? how is that situation?
[00:39:22] Unknown:
We have a handful of the old herbal schools. They were mostly created in the 70s and 80s, some early 90s, I think. And they teach traditional French herbalism. You know, it's very solid, education. Each of the school has their own particular spin on it and style. For instance, there's a school in the south of France who has a Chinese medicine view of the practice as an example. and then around that you're starting to see a bunch of smaller schools creating new curriculums. but that's fairly recent. Me, I started in 2015. And I brought a very.
Not weird, but I brought my unusual baggage with me, which was a mix of American plus French. That was different back then, is still different today. and I think the new schools that are starting to appear, they all bring their own style to it. Some will specialize maybe more in women conditions and some more on naturopathy with a herbal spin. and me, I've been focusing more on working with real problems and real people, which I see it almost as where the traditional French schools stop their curriculum. You know, that's where I take off and I take the students to the place where they can practice over the month. And you know, not diagnosed because of course, forbidden word, but find the strength and weaknesses of the person, formulate a program, and then refine and iterate, throughout the months and sometimes the years. but yeah, so as a summary, a handful of schools created in 70s and 80s, and then maybe very recently a bunch of new schools starting to appear, but fairly recent.
[00:41:45] Unknown:
What I'm wondering also is, do you see a growing number of medical professionals following your courses? Like doctors, nurses, pharmacists.
[00:41:56] Unknown:
Well, so people doing my classes, my courses. so yeah, I've had doctors and pharmacists and, vets. that's a French word. animal doctors. Yes, veterinarians. Yeah, yeah. so people from the medical profession. Maybe it's 10 of my students. and then, yeah, nurses, doulas and the, the trick is really, then what do you do with that knowledge and how do you integrate it within your medical profession? If you belong to the medical profession, how do you integrate it? And it's even harder for them because they are watched all the time, you know, a lot more than, than us. Us, we, we still have a lot of freedom. But if you're in the medical profession, gosh, you have the, you know, the, the, the order of the doctors, the order of the pharmacists that are constantly monitoring. And one of your colleague, Dr. Could, put you in front of the, their tribunals because God forbid, instead of prescribing an antibiotic, you've been prescribing, you know, whatever andrographis or whatever herbivore you could use to replace that. So, I think at the moment they're very eager to learn. They're starting to very carefully integrate some of it in their practice. But it's very slow and very careful and sometimes a little, a little hidden on the side. Because there's risk.
[00:43:32] Unknown:
Yes. If I hear you well, there is a lot of fear underneath going on.
[00:43:37] Unknown:
Yeah, there is. and that's, also a message I'd like to have been trying to send over the French side because myself, I kind of, I exhausted myself with, with fear. I'm so tired of it. I, I think I don't have it in me anymore. And I, I like to say that, you know, over, over with fear. Let's, let's move on now. Let's, let's do, let's practice what we know. And yeah, there are risks. Yeah, yeah. But the, the more we are, the, the more we'll be accepted. And So I don't know if it's very wise. Wise for me to. To say that, but I think we're reaching a point where, staying hidden is not doing us any service.
The more we stay hidden and the more the government will say they don't exist. You know, there's a few quarks here and there. No, no, no. We need to show we are numbers. And so enough with the fear. I'm tired with fear. And I hope that this younger generation we've been talking about will start a practice without it with more confidence and show, what they can do. But yeah, there's some of it still today. Yeah.
[00:45:00] Unknown:
Yes, I think that's a very liberating thought to let go of fear. And Yes, what I have seen in those years that I am a herbalist, that if I look back at, myself 20 years ago, I was keeping very low profile, just not to draw any attention to myself. And just like doing it hidden and secretly because I was too afraid of what the government would say or would think. And I really think I see that change over the past few years that people, say, hey, I'm a herbalist and this is what I do. And yes, there are some, legal regulations, but, but I know my profession and I know what I'm doing. And I can be trusted.
[00:45:48] Unknown:
That's right. And here we've been working with law, firms through our associations because thanks to our members, we've had some budget. So we've been hiring, some lawyers who are helping us to define what are the risks exactly and how to mitigate those risks. What kind of document to keep, what's not to write down, what kind of contract we could have signed by the client. And often when we present that work, it's a little scary. Because if you move to the point where you knew nothing about the law and you were quietly practicing, doing your own business, a bit hidden.
And all of a sudden you become aware of all those restrictions. It's scary, it's frustrating. And we've had, we have had, we've seen people say, well, you know, screw that, I'm tired of it. I may as well stop what I'm doing. And we say, no, no, no, no, no, hold on, hold on now. You know, and it's good now you have information and you can still choose what to, what to do with this information. You know, the lawyers, they're advising us to Have a little contract signed by our clients. So whenever I start a consultation, you know, I, I'm supposed to ask a client and say, listen, it's for your own good. It's for my own good as well. Can you sign this? And you can, you know, they can read it in advance. And sometimes I decide not to do it because it's inconvenient because I have this old person and because, because I decide to trust them. It's very flawed reasoning, for my part, but it's my choice to. I know the risk now. I do. But I choose not to have it signed. The lawyers, are saying, do not write down your recommendations. Well, you know what? Sometimes I write it, I put it in an email, I send the email. So of course you can trace it.
Right? But it's. I know the risk and it's my choice because maybe it's a teenager and the mother needs to receive it to make sure that he or she's taking it. And I like that, you know, the, the more we learn about the risk, the more we can decide what to do and not do fully knowing the risks, you know, so. Yes, so that's the model at the moment. I like it. It's a more mature model than, than just five years ago where I was just blindly doing everything. You know, when I stopped my business of selling seeds, you know, I ran that business for eight years and toward the end somebody told me, do you know what you're doing is illegal?
I was like, no way. And actually the way I was doing it was indeed probably back then illegal. I think at that point, if I, had continued the business, I would have investigated that and see how to be back into the legal framework. We need that information today or we'll be called quarks. That's the risk. And if we're called quarks, the government will decide to outlaw anything we do.
[00:49:13] Unknown:
Yes. And it also shows, I think, I think it's remarkable that you have to work with lawyers to know what you are allowed to do and what you have to be careful about. but I also think it shows, the importance of supporting one another because a lot of people get discouraged and they just. I see this, with my students from the Herbert School as well, that sometimes they graduate and I think, oh, this was a brilliant student. We'll hear about them. But then I meet them a couple of years afterwards and they tell me, oh, no, I didn't do anything with it. It was just too hard. And I felt all alone. And I always regret this. Really?
[00:50:01] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. We need to show success stories. I think that will inspire people and see that it is doable. But now me, I want to do it in a, realistic way because it's not easy. You're not going at it for the money. If you could get to the point where you're making the equivalent of a minimum wage, then good. Are you paying your bills? You're paying your bills. Good. Because you're doing the job you love. And you know, that's a first good step. and then yes, connecting and encouraging ourselves and protecting ourselves to one of our associations here in France. For growers, you know, the people growing and selling on markets, when they are being controlled by the government, they have, ah, a number of people they can call right away. And these are more senior people usually, or people in their region who also know the laws.
And they will come right away and they will be present during the control. And it's great because I'm not alone facing this, you know, aggressive government person. Because usually they're, they're, some are nice and some are a little aggressive and threatening. Well, now I'm not just by myself. I've got somebody else who also know the what, what I can do and not do and the gray areas and who will be here to, to support me. And I, I, I thought it was a great idea and maybe we should all do that.
[00:51:46] Unknown:
You know, That's a very good system. It seems very reassuring to have someone that has more experience than you around when you have this inspection. Yes, totally. Yes. Wow. All right, so if you would think about the future, like in 10 years or maybe in 50 years or in 100 years, how do you see the future of herbalism and in Europe?
[00:52:17] Unknown:
I think first of all, it's a celebration of our diversity. It cannot be centralized. It cannot be one big European system and regulation and style, and curriculum being pushed down into the different regions. I think all the countries, all the regions, they have their richness and diversity. And so what I'd love to see is this richness of practice, and this patchwork of practitioners who can exchange data and experience about different plans. So that we can all enrich each other. I mean, one thing that has been literally obsessing me because I've been studying all the classics here in France. You know, we don't have a lot of classic books, but I think I have most of them. And I think I have been reading most of them several times.
And I'm like, that's all we have. What are we going to do? What, aren't we supposed to now? And we have hundreds of books being published on, you know, herbalism and sorry. I mean, frankly, they're totally unexciting and they bring nothing new. What are we going to bring? You know, what's. So again, writing that new page of, herbal practice. And I think we need to work alongside the medical profession. I don't want to fight. I don't want to see a fight. I don't want to say. I never ever said, you know, they bad us good. I think this is childish.
[00:54:08] Unknown:
Polarization is just not constructive.
[00:54:11] Unknown:
Yes. So of course they will be here, and I hope we're still here, but learning to work alongside, some doctors here in France are already sending us a lot of their patients because they don't have the bandwidth. You know, your sleep issues. Okay, we tried that pill and then we tried that pill and you're still not sleeping well. You know what? I'm gonna give you a name. Digestive issues like ibs, you know, they have no solution. all the slow, chronic, degenerative, all the metabolic issues. Yeah. Send them to us because you're not able to handle them.
here. If you want to have an appointment with a doctor. I mean, it's crazy. Sometimes it takes months to have a first appointment. Not to mention dentists and dermatologists and all of that. I mean, it's just they don't have the bandwidth anymore. So I think it's a win win. I don't see it. I don't see how it's not a win win, actually. You know, it's still beyond me why there's such attempt to protect. To protect. It's all those old models are based out of fear. I'm, of the medical profession. Nobody can come onto my turf, you know, stay out of it.
And, it needs to change. And I think we are here. We can help the medical profession tremendously. they just need to see that.
[00:55:47] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. And I think what you just said, especially for chronicle conditions that modern medicine doesn't always know what to do with. It cannot help people on long term. And I think sometimes it's frustrating for herbalists because sometimes people come to them and they say, I have tried everything. three doctors, all these kinds of medicines with a lot of side effects. And I'm not sure what to do now anymore. I'm completely hopeless. So now I'm open to trying herbs. And then I think it could have been the other way around. You know, that you're trying herbs as a first thing that you're doing, and then maybe you never have to take the antibiotics or the things with lots of side effects. You can just start with. Of course, you know, if people run under a car. Yes, go to modern medicine right away, go to the hospital.
But I mean, in so many conditions, we could try herbs first and then move on to other kinds of medicine whenever needed.
[00:56:49] Unknown:
Yeah. And even beyond that, I think what we're doing, our value is that as we work with them from month to month, we're actually teaching them to listen to themselves and take control over the condition. And you've seen those clients, right? At some point they start to listen to what they feel, they start to see the difference it makes to take this herb and not that herb, and they're gonna try things without telling you. And at some point they're almost independent. And I think that's what we teach them. Sorry, it's, it's, it's a messy thought process in my head because I have so many things I'd like to say, like the, the fact that we, we don't know in advance what is going to work, which is the most frustrating thing in the world. What do you mean? Meadow Sweet is not helping with your joint pain? Right.
Why it should. Right. We, we, we're teaching that and we've been taught that. Right. Meadow Sweet should work well for some people. It doesn't, it's going to be another herb. Why? you know, you can explain it different way. The only explanation I have is that I don't know that person yet. And me, I need four to six months for a chronic condition. And I tell them right away today. You know, when I was younger, I was a little concerned to tell them because I'm like, well, if I tell them I need four to six months to work with them, they're going to see that they need to pay me for several consultation and then there'll be the cost of the herbs and they'll want to have quicker results.
And of course, very often we do have quicker results. We do have those people coming back a month later and say, you know what, I feel much better, thank you. That's it. Okay. But on average for chronic degenerative conditions, I need four to six months to see how that person react to this, this or that herb. And along the way I, will be passing some knowledge on to them so that they can start a write down to keep, a little diary A journal to listen to themselves and then to see that, oh, I ate that. You know, I was. I went to a restaurant, I ate that, and I, I see that it created inflammation crisis. I never noticed. And.
And at some point we can tell them, you understand the method now, keep going.
[00:59:25] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And I think it's people sometimes they're so. Well, the mainstream thinking is really the one size fits all method. And I think this is so interesting about working with herbs. I work as a wild plant food teacher, and so people ask me, yes, but how. How much nettles can I eat on a daily basis? And I'm like, listen to the reaction of your own body. I mean, I can be very enthusiastic about, some plant and telling you about the benefits of it, but if you take it and you feel every time you get nausea or you get, you know, pain in your. In your stomach, then this may not be the right plant for you. It's like, you know, drinking coffee. Some people can, drink six cups of coffee every day. Some people can only have two SIPs and have heart palpitations. So it's really depending on the person. And I think we have to reframe our thinking for that, because mainstream is so, yeah, one size fits all. And this is healthy, and this is not healthy. But what works for one person doesn't work for another person.
[01:00:39] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, exactly. It's still. It's still a, mystery to me why there's still, to this, to this day, in my practice, so much variation from one person to the next for what appears to be the same condition with the same herb and the same form and dosage from the same supplier to this day. And you can tell me, well, you know, it's energetics or, you know, what, it's this or the combination, of constituent and. And I'm like, I think it's. It's more like, who is this person? Who are you?
[01:01:19] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:01:20] Unknown:
And the first time I see you, I have no idea. You know, you come to me with Lyme disease or fibromyalgia. Like, I have no idea what I'm gonna do. I have no idea what I'm gonna recommend. Well, don't you have a protocol for Lyme disease? Aren't you working with the, the Buhner this. Aren't you working with the. Actually, no. You know, today it's like, blank page. Because whenever I, Whenever I tried to start with the protocol from this or that person, at some point, it didn't work. So.
[01:01:55] Unknown:
And I think the beauty of that is also that what you previously said, it is like the celebration of diversity of life?
[01:02:04] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that is right.
[01:02:09] Unknown:
Is there anything else you would like to add, something we haven't discussed yet, but that you really want to spread the word about?
[01:02:20] Unknown:
Yeah. For those people who are starting to practice just accepting what we've been talking about, accepting that it's a very iterative process. Accepting that maybe for one, two, three months you will see again the person and you will. You will ask that dreaded question. So, how are you feeling? What are the progress? Be prepared that sometimes they will say nothing. Not much. Be comfortable with what you're doing. And I'm saying that because I went through it in my first years of practice. It is fucking uncomfortable. Sorry again, pardon my French, but it is very uncomfortable. You don't want to hear that, but you will. You will. And you'll have to weather this and be comfortable with yourself and who you are. M.
And that will teach you some very valuable lessons. It didn't work. Why didn't it work? Okay. And then move on to the next step. I wish I had somebody who had told me all of this when I started. And, also for the future, I'm going to send this cry for help is everywhere. We need to have apprenticeships. I wish I had been an apprentice of someone when I started. I couldn't find that I had. I had no access to mentors and masters. Right. And, I think in France, at some point, we'll. We'll try to put that in place. It. We're still a few years away, but I hope in all the countries we can go back to a system where you will be the apprentice of somebody who knows for maybe a couple of years, and then you will learn so much faster.
[01:04:16] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:04:16] Unknown:
Meanwhile, accept that you don't know.
[01:04:20] Unknown:
All right. Thank you so much, Christopher. So if people want to learn, more about your work, about Altier Provence, where can they find some more info?
[01:04:31] Unknown:
it's all centralized on my website, which is www.altia provence. I think we'll spell it out right on. On. I don't know if you'll put it.
[01:04:42] Unknown:
In the show notes.
[01:04:42] Unknown:
In the show notes. All right.com from the website, you can see my YouTube, channel, which of course is in French. So I'm not sure it's going to be of much help. you can ask us some questions through the contact forms and, post comments and questions below every article. And me and my team were here to help you.
[01:05:04] Unknown:
All right. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.
[01:05:08] Unknown:
Thank you, Lu.
[01:05:09] Unknown:
Thank you, Wildling, for listening to this episode. I hope to. To see you, back in the next one. And in the meantime, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. A warm thank you for listening. Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
