Lora Moiree is a practitioner of green magic and occult botany, she's Bulgarian and was always drawn to plants and felt guided by nature spirits all her life.
Annelies Buggenhout is a permaculture teacher and a forager, she's Belgian and her history with plants and herbs is more recent, it all started when she moved to Bulgaria about 10 years ago.
Two different stories, but what they have in common is they love nature, just like you and me.
Enjoy our talk in this podcast episode!
About how Annelies experienced an eco-awakening while living in the forest for the first few months after arriving in Bulgaria.
About how Lora received all her knowledge of plants and herbs from nature spirits.
About the different perceptions Lora and Annelies have, one being native Bulgarian and the other being a Belgian immigrant.
About how civilisation has taken away the magic of nature.
About typical Bulgarian herbal traditions and how their Pagan roots are strongly preserved.
About the relationship between humans and nature spirits and how plants changed the relationship both women have with themselves.
About the freedom to forage in Bulgaria without any legal framework.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Annelies here: https://www.monadmindfoundation.org/
Or follow her on Instagram @monad_mind
Lora can be found on Instagram @moiree.flower.magick and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Moiree.flower.magick
🌿 We mention the books of Stephen Harrod Buhner, they are a must read if you are a plant person.
https://www.stephenharrodbuhner.com/books/
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com. thank you so much. Much. Welcome to Wild the Podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes.
Working with plants has become more popular. But I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal. I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and plants.
And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Hello, Wildling. Welcome to a new episode of Wild the podcast for herbalists and foragers throughout Europe. And today, I'm doing something very special. I do not have just one guest, but I have two guests. One of them is Laura Mouret. She's a practitioner of green magic and occult botany. And then there's, Anneliese Buchenhout, who is a totally immersed into plants. She's a permaculture teacher and a forager.
And both of you live in Bulgaria, right?
[00:02:51] Unknown:
Yes, since, I live here since 10 years.
[00:02:54] Unknown:
I live here since seven. Seven and a half. But I'm originally from Bulgaria. I just moved back, like, seven and a half years ago. Yeah. All right. Okay. So what I would like to know, how did each of you discover herbalism and herbs and foraging as a passion? Being a plant person, I know that you're not like, that you haven't studied herbalism as. As a course, but, I know you work with the herbs a lot. So what initially drew you into this path?
[00:03:30] Unknown:
Yeah, I think for me, that's. As for most of your guests, I believe on the podcast, it's of course, it's a life story. But for me, for sure, things got into more, rapid pace once I arrived in Bulgaria. And I think for me, what really brought me on the path actually is so 10 years ago when I came here to Bulgaria, I was living in the forest for four months, in a cotton canvas tent with my cats. And it was the most spectacular time of my life. I experienced then also what I think we can refer to as an echo awakening. So it's some kind of combination, of a spiritual awakening, but also for the first time, really feeling so deeply connected, with nature, where you start feeling like we're all. We're all related.
Where I can literally feel a tree where I would, like, be camping. And then I see a viper. And then the viper just becomes my body, even though that's actually, you know, if it bites you, it's a venomous snake. So, I think that's. That's the first, ingredients. Right? Like, and also I decided to stay in Bulgaria. That was a whole new level of my being, I believe that was, that was opened. But then also since, since a year, I, was diagnosed with Lyme disease. And looking for, answers for my own healing, I got to know Stefan Buhner, Stefan Herod Bruner. He wrote a lot about, herbalism for Lyme disease.
But what caught me even more was when I heard this man speaking for the first time. I was like, this is my guru. This man is speaking all the words that I feel inside me. And he had such an eloquent way of formulating that all. And then I really went back into, you know, questioning myself, my path, what I've been doing here for 10 years, and realizing also that I've been a plant person all along, remembering suddenly a dream that I had, once when I had 39 degrees fever. And then in the middle of the night in that fever state, I would, see myself in the garden.
And, like, hundreds of plant beings literally came out of the. Out of the bushes, out of my garden and came to see me. And then there was Beetroot in the front, in the front of the. Of. Of all of these beings. And Beetroot said, well, we came to meet you and to tell you that you should consume me more. And, yeah, that's just this kind of flashback that then once I. I found in Stefan Bunn. He's. He. He's speaking about his experiences. And then, I think it really suddenly clicks in that you've been on this path already for 10 years. Although, you know, through permaculture courses and just foraging, living in the wild and so on. I wasn't really consciously, consciously walking that planned path yet. But now, because of the disease and feeling that I'm on crossroad in my life, this has really brought a lot more to the foreground. And, then I feel very, very inspired to go into the direction of herbalism, and eco consciousness. Eco awareness or like eco depth psychology.
Yeah, that's roughly my story.
[00:07:14] Unknown:
All right. Thank you. Anneliese and I agree on the books of Bunner. He's one of my favorite authors. And I think I have most of his books. They just so inspiring. Yes. Like the one on plant intelligence. It's. It's just a must read. I think if you're a plant person, you just have to read his books.
[00:07:34] Unknown:
They're so inspiring. So sad. By the way, that was a double thing. Just like I found out about him only one year after his passing. But now, ever since I found out about him, he somehow reappears all the time. I have this feeling like Stefan Buner caught me by the hand. And I just. I don't know, it's like he's the grandfather that I wish I had. Like, I love my grandfather too. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. But somehow, Yeah, he's amazing. And,
[00:08:03] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes. And I think his work lives on. Definitely. it's of such high value. Yes. So, Laura, how was it for you? How did you get started with plants? M. You know, actually, I never felt, like, drawn to urban settings. Like, for me, even though I'm from Sofia, from the capital, like, I actually always spent my weekends in nature, like the village of my grandma. And like, I have a very clear memory of being like, maybe six or seven years old with a thunderstorm in the forest and being like, super thrilled and super excited. I didn't have, like, fear at all. And this is like all these experiences, like, that I grew up with. I mean, for me they were natural. And what was not nature was going back to Sofia. And I clearly remember, like, when I was 14, being, in the mountain and returning from the mountain, and my mother, like, having the TV switched on. And I just asked her to, you know, to stop it, like to turn it off. Because it felt so natural. And this is when I quit, like, watching tv.
[00:09:14] Unknown:
Tv.
[00:09:14] Unknown:
Because to me it felt like, like very artificial. Like really artificial. And, actually I was always, like, guided by nature spirits. Since I'm a Child. So I never had a teacher on the physical realm, like, a teacher, like, person. And, before coming back to Bulgaria, I wanted to meet, like, my absolutely basic fears, like, what is it to live without any money? So I was living, on some islands in Spain, but just in nature. So for me, it was a very. Yeah, a very, like, dreamy realm. Dreamy realm where you're just submerged totally. And then, through destiny, through the moiras, I had to return to Bulgaria, which was not my wish.
And, then after, like, a couple of months here, I had this calling to start this, school for green magic and, occult botany. So when I found the house for this place, it was very, very interesting because I went to this place and I had some. Some food with me, but it was on a plastic plate. So when I started eating it, the wind came and it blew away this plate.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
So the.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
The food was on the ground. So I started recollecting it and wanting to eat it. And then I heard, no, this is for us. So it was the nature spirits that immediately, like, made contact with me on this place. And this is the place where I run the school and where I'm. I'm living, like, for five years. Yeah.
[00:10:58] Unknown:
Wow.
[00:10:58] Unknown:
Very fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, Annalise. Ah, you as a Belgian living in Bulgaria, and you, Laura, as a native Bulgarian. How do you perceive the differences when it comes to, like, the way people are connected to nature or cultural differences when it comes to foraging? How do you see that?
[00:11:26] Unknown:
Yeah, I think, for me, the first thing that I noticed relating, to this question, right. Is when I kind of crossed the borders into the Balkans, I noticed so much biodiversity, like, really. And I think that was the first thing that I was like, wow, nature is so rich here. And mostly, like, little things on the side of the road. For example. Right. Like, in Belgium, we have a history of using a lot of, pesticides on the sides of the roads. And here, a lot of these things are left more, untouched. If that's because of a respect of nature or not. I think that's just, like, a lack of, you know, like, not maintaining those roads between the villages. Letting them be wild.
[00:12:13] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:12:14] Unknown:
But the result, of course, is to just so amazing. And, Yeah, like, people. Yeah. you do see that people forage still more, especially also mushrooms and so on. although I do think that that in the. In the modern, day now, I think it's rather, like, superficial still. Like, I think a lot of people are, afraid of Certain things. So it's not like it goes super deep. It's like it's still there in the culture. but, for example, let's say if they're picking mushrooms, then most people, what is like, generally known in the culture, they know how to pick five mushrooms or something. While the people that really go deep into foraging, they will know, of course, oh, there's like 20 different edible species around here.
So, yeah, that's a bit my. My experience of how I perceive, Like, it's.
[00:13:10] Unknown:
It's.
[00:13:11] Unknown:
For me, it's very paradoxical country because I feel like people are very, very connected to their nature because there is more wilderness and at the same time because maybe because of poverty, like, caring for nature is absolutely not their priority. So it's like this very strong paradox, kind of the opposite, you know, the opposite of Belgium, I feel like, in that way. I don't know, Laura, what you.
[00:13:39] Unknown:
Yeah, I feel the same. Like, when I was studying, I was studying in Australia, in Germany, and I never felt like I want to stay there. And the reason was civilization, because I felt like there, wherever you go, you can't have solitude. I always felt like all paths have been walked. You know, I'm in nature and I mean, I go to mountain hut and all of a sudden, like, I have 10 varieties of cakes that I can choose from, from, like, being Bulgarian, having grown in this post. Like, you know, I'm born just one year, before the transformation. So I didn't grow up with this abundance, you know, of things. And, so this civilization kind of. It was very repulsive. Like, I. I disliked it strongly. And I always knew low, like, okay, I'm going back. And, actually, in Bulgaria, what happened is when the democracy came, a lot of people moved to urban settings and all these village structures were destroyed. And this is why nowadays, like, we have really, like, ghostly villages where nobody lives or very few people live. Like, for example, in the village where I live, there are 70 people, but we don't have, for example, a shop. And I'm, the, youngest person in the village. So, of course, if you live in such settings, it's very, very difficult to make a living or like, to have social life because most people are just, older. Like, for a younger person, it's difficult.
But all of that, like, there are many challenges. But also, like, all of that really tempted me because it really gives me the feeling that, you know, when I. When I'm home and when it's time dark, I just hear the chuckles and it's like. And I live, like, just I'm. I live in Sredna Gora, which is called literally. It means, middle forest, like from Lord of the Rings. So it's like middle land. And we are just on top of one of these hills of Sredna Gora, which was a very important, place for Thracian sanctuary. So all around are these sanctuaries.
And I really, like, I feel in a web of sacredness. So for me, this feeling is just the best I could wish for. It's like living a dream and actually like a real witch. When I moved there, I was the last. I had the last house. But, like, after, like, a year, like a couple moved in. So I don't live in the last house. But still I just have to leave from the house. And like, after three minutes, I'm just alone, you know, like, there is no village. They are just the chuckles, the wild animals and the nature spirits. And you clearly feel that it's. It's their territory and you're on their territory. And this, for me, it's what makes Bulgaria so special because, you know, we, like, our population decreased like we were when I was a teenager. We were around 8 millions. Now we are 5 million. And I feel for the nature itself. It's kind of good, we can say, because, like, nature takes back, you know, it takes back and like, a lot of people are just. Let's say we are now in Sofia. Like, more than 2 million people live here.
And all the countries, 5 millions. So you have all these vast territories where you're just can really go in touch with nature spirits. And this can't happen. when you're in a place where civilization made its way, it could be a village, but still it's civilized, humanized nature. And for me, this is not nature. Yeah. So could you say that civilization has taken away the magic of nature? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was just reading like a couple of days ago about the deforestation process of Ireland, and it's so sad. And we went through this, you know, I mean, even in. Even. Even though the Romans were pagans, I mean, the way they destroyed like, Germanic lands, Germanic woodland, Celtic, woodlands. It's, you know, we are so, like, it's all set. I mean, it's something that. I mean, for example, Ivy, just to give you a current example, let's not talk about some, woods. The woods that are gone for centuries. But like, Ivies, for example, a lot of people think that Ivies, they are poisonous and that they are going to kill the trees they grow on.
But in order for an ivy to produce resin, and this resin is something very, very special, it has to be 100 years old. And I have never seen such old ivy in Bulgaria. And I remember the first time I met such ivy in. On on an island in Greece. I was overwhelmed and that the trees they were growing on were fine. But this is the civilization process. We go like, oh, we want to protect the tree, we're going to cut the ivy. I mean, this is just stupidity, human stupidity. And And actually nowadays authors, they still have these debates because the ancients, they wrote a lot about the ivy racing and they were like m. But. But nowadays people are like, was this really ivy that. This racing that they talk about? Because we don't have the experience of knowing personally IV Racing. So that's it. Yeah.
Very interesting, yes. So Laura, can you share like a very specific Bulgarian herbal practice? No, I can't. There is no such thing, you know, because first I, as I told you, I learned from. From creatures that are not Bulgarians. These are spirits, nature spirits and elemental forces. So I do go in contact with them. And I'm not familiar with these Bulgarian practices. And it's funny because always when I have workawears or some foreign people coming, they're always like, oh, you're a Bulgarian, you have to know to tell us something about Bulgaria. I can give you some historical context, but I never like. My process was always practical, like, experience, experiential. It was never like, oh, I, read books. And then I just quote what is written in books. Never.
I'm just like, maybe I should ask. The question to Anneliese, because I know I have become more aware of what was typical for my culture here in Belgium through friends that came from other countries and that told me, hey, this is like a typically Belgian tradition that you do like at Christmas or you know, at a special time of the year. So Annalise, is there anything you can share with me?
[00:20:24] Unknown:
Yeah, I don't think I can like. But firstly, for example, just like the quality of the herbs is like that you would find in in a regular shop, right? Like the quality of the herbs that you would find in a regular shop is vastly better than what you can find in Belgium. And I think that's just because of the climate and that there's just still such a richness. For example, wild thyme. In Bulgarian Masterka, there's so many different herbal mixtures. The Climate is also so diverse. So you have mountains, you have plains, you have the seaside. So there's a bit of everything.
and I think in, in the pharmacies also I see that, that quite a lot more preserved. Like people do go to herbal and like vitamin, vitamin supplements faster than that they would I think in, in Belgium. But like some of the things that really caught me is it's not really a herbal. Well, yeah, like there's a herbal tradition. They go and pick on which day in summer.
[00:21:29] Unknown:
The Saint John's. The Saint John's Midsummer.
[00:21:33] Unknown:
Yes, the Midsummer's Day. And it's like you, you still see that people actually go out and pick their herbs on this specific day. Yeah, because it's, it's, it's still like. Yeah. Passed on the knowledge that that's the day that so any of them. Yeah, yeah, you can, you can expect if you know something more about.
[00:21:54] Unknown:
Yeah, sure. But yeah, I just wanted to say like Bulgaria was a Christian country, but it really strongly preserved its pagan roots. So in our folklore we don't have this like, we never, we didn't have this kind of, you know, historical process where we were really like truly Christianized. So in all the folklore we have these very strong pagan elements and the church never, we didn't have this which burnings here. And that's the point still nowadays there are a lot of people practicing magic also black magic, like on the whole Balkans, not just in Bulgaria. But these are things that exist and this a huge difference. Like I'm going a bit of beyond the question, but just to compare. Like in the west, when you talk about witchcraft, people perceive it like a cool practice.
They connected to feminism, they relate to feminism. It's a practice of empowerment. When you talk about witchcraft in Bulgaria, people think immediately about evil magic. And I remember giving an interview on the national TV and that before the interview I was asked not to use the word magic. Of course I did it in the very first minute because I had to explain what magic is. But here like when you talk, because magic is still nowadays practice very widely spread, spread in And you, you can't really even meet the family where like like in every family you have these stories of at least one family member who was attacked by evil magic in my family as well. But it's really this evil magic that people relate to. So it's, it's very different. like the connotations witchcraft here on the Balkans in general and in the west, for example, let Me give you a very funny example. Like when I was studying in Germany, like, ah.
A guy I met, he told me that in his mattress, the mattress on which he's sleeping, he found the clock inside. But these ones that are ticking like you know. So for me it's clear that somebody put this and it's like evil magic. And for him it was, oh, how weird. So we have a totally different perception, you know, about if something like. You understand what I mean? So for them it's just something profane. It's weird. And not just for me, but for everybody here. Like everybody will be just suspicious that it's some kind of evil magic that has been done to the person.
Yeah. So this is a huge difference. Cultural difference. Yes. Thank you for clarifying that. And what I'm wondering is, do people use like certain plants to protect themselves from like evil magic? Not true plants, to be honest. And here comes the very other interesting. The very different, like another very diff. Interesting thing that like most of the population of Bulgaria are Christian Orthodox. Also there is a big Muslim community because most people are Christian Orthodox. But they stick so much to this Orthodox church that when there is evil magic, most people go to Muslim imam to cure. To take this evil magic away. Because these Imams, they are told how to remove these bad spirits or evil magic. And people have absolutely no problem, you know, being Christian and going to a Muslim, imam. And I had this very interesting story with. I had true to Ukrainian refugees to my place and they're also Orthodox. And I told them this practice and they were horrified. They were.
How does it come like in our country when you, when you suspect something like this? You go to the priest and he reads you. There is some Kirianic, Kyrianic like words that you say. And then you get rid of this. You don't go to a Muslim, imam. But this is what people here do on a daily basis. That is so fascinating to hear about these cultural differences. Anneliese, you want to add something to that?
[00:26:04] Unknown:
But speaking about protective plants, I think there was another. There's another interesting occurrence that I feel, For me something like this would, you know, would only occur in the Bulgarian landscape. Something that is very specific about the Bulgarian landscape for me, is that everywhere you walk you're just feeling like the history under your feet, you know, because there's been Roman Empire Ottomans. And you could just like be like Laura mentioned earlier also you could be in the middle of Nowhere. Nowhere. And, and just, you know, not see anyone. But then you will. Everywhere you are, you will find, like, you know, you will find this little clearing and then a, relief in the landscape that looks like there has been some structures before that. And, it's, you know, slowly I came to the understanding that it's rather known for. For example, in many areas of villages there. There are Roman settlements from before.
But what I wanted to mention is then, you know, from my forest walks, I started to notice that every time I'm, I'm finding this place where I have this feeling like, oh, people must have lived here before. And then you start looking around, and then you're seeing some structures. But also, I was always finding this same plant. It's like a prickly plant with a red berry. It's a evergreen. I forgot the name, to be honest.
[00:27:35] Unknown:
Rosehip.
[00:27:36] Unknown:
No, it's not the rosehip. Like a very prickly plant, very similar to host in Dutch. but, yeah, very sharp, prickly plant, low bushes. And then I started paying attention, you know, like, first I was always seeing these structures and then noticing the plants, and then I started reversing it. Like, when I see the plants, can I find some structures? and finally. No, green. Green with red. M. It's not edible berries. It's. The seeds are in a very, red berry. And finally I was able to identify it, but I don't remember the name right now. but then I found out that this is a plant that the Romans used. That it was known that the Romans used this for protection and that they would plant it around their house.
So this was, for me, like, the first one was like, wow, why are there so little amount of people doing, like, plant archaeology? I know it does exist, but I think the plants can teach us a lot about what used to be there. so that's a protective plant we do find in Bulgaria, but it's from Roman times. not currently used anymore.
[00:28:48] Unknown:
Actually, I work a lot with blackthorn, but blackthorn is actually very. You know, it's part of the Ogham Alphabet, and it's related to the Celtic tradition, like M. People here, really, they think it just. It's a weed. They even don't make anything from it. Like, they don't use it for liquors or anything. But I find this very interesting, you know, because it's growing, like, almost everywhere. And it's such an important, plant. Ah. For example, for the. For the Celtic folklore, but not here. So. Yeah, it's not always that you make use of whatever is there.
Yes. And I think it's also really fascinating to see how certain prickly plants, like they have thorns or in any other way, like stinging nettle, that in some ways it's like a very protective plant. And in other ways people just dislike it because of the prickly parts. So to me that's like, really fascinating to notice how, how there are two sides to this. How people see it as, you know, like a weed or like not even a, ah, proper plant because of the prickly parts. But on the other hand, how they use it as a protective, you know, for the protective, properties that the plant has. And it's always, you know, these two sides. And it's very interesting to. Yeah. To read and to hear about this and to find out about this.
Yes. Yeah. Because thorns are related to Mars. This is a signature of Mars. So Mars is a, principle of aggression. So people are kind of avoiding it. You know, it gives you a clear sign. Stay away. M. Yeah.
[00:30:37] Unknown:
But also, I think even in, I mean in a lot of European countries we were like, we were using these in the past, also more on purpose. Right. Like, so I think maybe we also have this negative connotation. But for example, in regenerative agriculture, these traditions are coming back. For example, if you wouldn't, like, if you don't want to put a fence, but if you want to do it more ecologically, you could have the thick hedges and then you will use a lot of what is called pioneer plants. Prickly. And. And it's also, it's their ecosystem. Like from an ecosystem point of view, it is their function. Right.
Like, on the forest edges where you will find those, those tight kind of plants. So their purpose literally is, Is to try and provide a barrier for wild animals, like to. To just, you know, slow down the being eaten of other plants. so it's quite fascinating, I think because we probably were purposefully using those two. Like if you really go plant that very densely, you shouldn't try squeezing yourself through a thick planted hedge. that has been really densely planted with, plants. So I think that's quite literally so, in our human way that we used it especially in the past, but now is being revived through regenerative, practices.
[00:32:03] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And I agree, like a, very thick hatch of hawthorn is very effective to keep the deer away from your vegetable garden. And Yes, I like the idea of it being a functional protection and then having also the symbol of the protection yes, that kind of resonates with me. I think that makes a lot of sense, on how plants are used oftentimes. Because hawthorn is also one of these really protective plants. And, yes, they do have a very important ecological function. Because if you just have a fence or you have, like, a hedge. And then you have the flowers for the bees and the berries for the birds. And lots of other small mammals that are, you know, making.
Making their little nests there and living there. And that is just so important. So, yes, I'm really happy to see this revival into these skills. And the reviving of hedges, hedge planting and, hedge weaving also. I think that's very important in today's world.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
I've been very inspired now since I found out that I have Lyme disease also, like, I'm, mostly recovered now thanks to the help of plants. But, Hawthorne was also one of the plants that I worked, with. Because of the positive influence on the. On the heart. And it's just like. That's an interesting plan because it's also protective. But at the same time, I have this, like, very warm, cuddly, fuzzy feeling, you know. When I made the tincture, of Hawthorne berries for the first time and I drank it, I was like, wow, this is beautiful. But it's like, I could drink it, you know, like, just, Just as a. As a liquor. It just feels so, like, literally heartwarming for me. And, because of. Yeah, so because of that also, I'm quite a lot more inspired to go plant more Hawthorne hedges around my property and have more hawthorn.
[00:34:07] Unknown:
You know, actually, for me, that doesn't sound so weird, Anneliese, because protection also gives safety. And so you feel. You just feel the safety, of the plant protecting you. It's like a, parent almost, or like an ancestor that, you know, a parent, a grandparent that protects. And that gives you this sense of safety. And, of course, in a way, plants. Well, not in a way. Plants are literally our ancestors. You know, they came from the sea. And they, colonized the land first. And they, made sure that the circumstances were in this way. That other life could exist on Earth. Like we. So, I really like to see that image in my head. When I hear you talking about, you know, The protective way of Hawthorne and other plants. Yes.
I would like to add something to this. Go ahead, Laura. Nowadays, people have this kind of very, like, Positive, you know, approach towards plants. But our ancestors actually did divide plants into positive, like, benefic and malefic ones. And they did fear certain plants, which is not the case with modern people because we have to reconnect back to them. So when you talk about it, like I just thought about for example hawthorns. That hawthorns were for, for example in, in Celtic culture they're they were seen as the home of fairies of she.
And these are these are spirits that could be very malefic and very hostile towards humans. So this is the, the reason why there are many like long standing hawthorns in Ireland. So I have to say that there are actually like also many trees like willows for example, or I'm not sure about the word in English, I think it's elder. This is a tree with red bark. When you cut it, the bark is red. Yes, yes. And they have these fruits when they fall, for example in the, in the, in the river, in the water, they make the water black. So it's like obsidian mirror and you can really SCRY there.
But this was something that people, let's say people that were our ancestors, they were really scared. Feeble magic of spirits, etc. Yes, and I think that also makes sense because like the willow and the alder, they were growing near water, or in the swamp. And of course these were dangerous areas for people to, to walk, especially before we had like electric lighting. And so I, I think there was a lot of stories surrounding these trees just to keep people, people away from these dangerous areas also. And yes, especially the alder. If you you know, like, if you cut it, it's like yellowish, but then through oxidation it becomes like really red. And even if the SAP is still coming out, it's like blood that is coming out of a tree. So this is of course a thing that speaks to imagination, I think.
Yes, I don't think it's imagination. I mean, I have to say, say that nature spirits are, I'm not going to say they're malefic, but I'm going to say they are not part of this consciousness of white and black, good and bad. I mean, nature spirits, like, you surely know about Karim Buer and I heard her talking on a podcast and I was like, oh, finally someone is saying that because nature spirits, they're not humans. So when you go for example to nature and you did bother them and you don't bring offerings, they, they could really harm you. So it's not our fantasy. I mean all these stories that are reported like, and they, that stayed in the consciousness as fairy tales, like for example you walk somewhere in the darkness and something happens to you. This was caused by nature spirits. And I can tell you like from my m. Personal experience, like nature spirits, they don't have any scruples like doing harm to people when people bother them, when people don't give them offerings, when people fear them. I remember being like in a like very spooky place in Greece, like abandoned medieval like village with my partner. And she was, she could feel the presence of these spirits but she was absolutely terrified, really terrified.
And I was afraid that they are going to harm her in some way. So I just want to make clear that from really from an experiential point of view, nature spirits and plants in general, these are very, their devils are very powerful. And powerful doesn't mean benefic. Or positive towards humans. So we have to take this into account. And this is why let's say people that didn't practice magic, they say it away and for a good reason. Yeah. So could you tell us something about how you work with these nature spirits? You know, they just connect to me. First of all, I always say when people go to nature, not to mountain, but really to civilize nature, they have always to bring some offering with them. Like I always bring like it could be like you know, some drink, they really like alcoholic drinks, some spirits or some dried flowers, some dried fetas. I had situations in my life where I was woken up in the middle of the night being in nature by nature. Spirits who tell, literally tell me like, give us offerings, give us offerings and they want their offerings. So I always recommend people to bring offerings just in case when they have their walks in nature and not in a park in the city because they might come across these spirits and they have to give something to the spirits.
But it could be that if the person just fears them or doesn't have anything, they're going to take their offerings no matter if the person believes in that or not. And this is what modern people don't understand. I mean these are presences that don't have physical forms, but they're still there and they want these offerings. And this is very important that we always are prepared to give something and if we don't, they can take it. And this could be really harmful for us as humans. Like the story with my food. I had to let this food for them and not to eat it. And they told me this. So I got it, I laid it.
Made it very clear. Yes. Yeah.
[00:40:48] Unknown:
Yeah. Earlier, before the interview we were talking with Laura, too, and she was also talking about this. And I was like, oh, yeah, now it all makes sense, you know, because I was. When I was living in the forest, for four months, and then I'm still, to this day, I'm so sad that I lost my ring, Like, a very beautiful ring. And I was like, it makes no sense to me that I could have lost it because, like, I've spent, like, seven years on the same location, going back there, having meditations, like, in that same location. And I just was always puzzling. It was also a very large ring. And I'm like, oh, yeah, of course, of course.
I lost this ring because, probably, yeah, that was the offer that was required. It does make sense now. But, yeah, I also. I wanted to share something around that. Around that fear, I think, isn't like, isn't that also, for me, what. What is a, a plant? Like, so whether it's magical or not, like, but this is something that we're seeing too, right? Like, people are so afraid of the. For example, the. The, Amanita muscaria, right? Like, it's like, oh, it's poisonous. You shouldn't eat it. And then, you know, you're educating yourself, right? Like, we are afraid of the unknown generally. So whether that is magical influences or spirits or if that's plants, I think it's because we don't know, that. That we get into these cultures of.
Of. Yeah, warning. And that makes sense, as Viva also said, right? Like, that it's. It's. It, you know, it's a, It's a safety mechanism. But for me, then that is the. The whole point, right? Like, to kind of go on a, on a planned path. It's like, hey, I want to get to know you and not. Not be afraid, right? Like, how can I really connect deeper to nature?
[00:42:42] Unknown:
That.
[00:42:42] Unknown:
That, for me is really, I think, the reason why I want to go on a planned path. It's. It's to know some. Someone deeper. And by knowing it, you're not so afraid anymore. You start learning. Okay? But, yes, this one is poisonous in a large amount, but if it's in a moderate amount, it can heal inflammation. it's so often the case, right? Like, that the most poisonous ones are, of course, the most medicinal ones. and, yeah, for me, that's really fascinating, and I think it speaks a lot. Like, this was something that we were talking about earlier. Like, so is modern civilization killing the magic? It's like, yes, of course. For me it's yes, of course.
In a culture like this, we are afraid. We are afraid of nature and afraid of plants because we don't know it anymore. I m think that's called an echognosis, right? Like our biognosis. When people grow up in the city and they don't really have enough access to the wild, you will just not have the same opportunity to develop this same connection. And I, always love to work with people and tell them, like, if you want to awaken this connection, you should at least go and sleep, a night in nature, but without a tent. You know, like bring a sleeping bag but no tent because we always build these walls. it's like human versus nature. But what does that mean? You know, are people saying like, oh, nature will survive, but we will. I'm like, what does it mean even nature will survive?
Do you mean will the plant survive? will humanity survive? Because aren't we nature? Will only the bacteria survive? Will the planet survive in an intergalactic way? People aren't even aware how big wall we have built, between us and nature. While in fact we are interconnected beings. Right? Like my lungs are an extension of the trees. You know, like when the tree breathes out, I breathe in, and when I breathe out, the tree breathes in. So we are inter, inter beings. This is the way that I, more and more like to look at things. And, and so for me, that fear of the unknown and then actively maybe engaging into activities that may make me just know more and not on the level of rational understanding, but like, get to know you. Like I want to know you. whether that's a plant or an ecosystem as a whole or a spirit or.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
Yes, that really cuts to the core of the issue to me. and I, I like this whole concept of interconnectedness. and yes, I think it's true. I see, especially with people that are out of tune with nature, how they try to divide nature into these different categories. Like, oh, but all orange colored berries are toxic, which is of course nonsense, but it's kind of, they try to do it just to get a grip on it because it's like such an huge unknown field for them and they just feel so insecure and so scared of it really.
[00:46:12] Unknown:
And sometimes the opposite. So many times I've heard, oh, but all mushrooms that grow on trees are edible, right? And I'm like, yes, yeah. Except, you know, some of the ones.
[00:46:23] Unknown:
Like, yeah, okay, I just want to add something to what you're both Saying, I'm going back to the realm of magic. So the words, the Germanic word for witch comes from hagatsusa, which means like the hedge rider. So talking about these hedge plants, I just want to make clear that not everybody, everyone is called to go beyond the hedge. So it could, could really be dangerous. So I just want to say this as a reminder of the fact that even our ancestors that were way more connected that modern people nowadays are, they knew that these wise women, they would go to them and ask for advice, etc. Of course they used on everyday basis, on daily basis, plants, unless, unlike modern people, but still for let's say magical purposes, etc, they would know that they have like this, they can't for example bridge this gap, on the other side of the hedge. And I think this is very, very important.
This is what I always also say in my courses, that the fact that people come and pay to take a course with me doesn't mean that they will get in touch, for example, that they're witches. You know, this very important to say because new Age, is like very related to capitalism and it's like, oh, whatever, like you pay for a shamanic course or you pay for a witch for a course into witchcraft and then you become a shaman or you become a ah, witch. But for me this is a calling and it's, it's not like I chose it, it choses me. It's the other way around. So I just want to say that there are these two very different dimensions of works with with plants. And I think that one has to realize where he or she belongs because in our times our ego is huge and everybody wants to be special and everybody wants to be a shaman and everybody wants to be a witch, but not everybody's called to be.
So this is just something I wanted to have. Yes. And I can feel the passion in your words. Yes. And one thing I wanted to ask you Laura, how, how is it do you have like certain plant allies plant that you work plants that you work a lot with? M. Well, the logo of of my brand is the peony. On the logo of my brand is the peony. It's a Jupiterian plant. So I really do connect to this a lot. But I also, I have to tell that actually yesterday I was in the in the mountain at night, at night time and there were these others. So outer is a tree of really high magic. So I would say that I would I would rather say that I connect to this Trees or plants that are related to the dark face of the moon. And I realized, because I'm also an astrologer, so asking people around, I just realized that depending on when the person was born on which phase of the moon they were born, these are the type of plants they connect to. So just to give you an example, for example, if you're born on a new moon, you're gonna connect with plants that are related to this type of plants that represent this archetype.
You know, the Here I refer to the frame of the three archetypes of the goddess. So the maiden, the mother and then the crown. So I was born on these three nights of hekate before the night, before the new moon. So I do connect to these plants that are kind of darker, even though I'm not practicing on the poison path, but like alder for example, with such a, ah, dark plant. And I would not recommend it to a person to work with, to start with if for example, this person was born on a new moon. And I found it very interesting in my recent course, I had a girl that was born on full moon. And full moon is related to the archetype of Ceres or Demeter.
And these are mother goddesses. Goddesses, fertility. So this girl was growing like these fruit trees on her balcony in the. And this didn't surprise me at all. And of course it's not the right thing for her to go to work with an with a black thorn or with an outer. She. She's just gonna scared by this experience. But it's also not the right thing for me to work with a, for example with a mango tree because I'm just. I don't connect to this archetype. Yes, yes. So do I hear you right if I say that this is not like a one size fits all thing? That there is not like a plant that you could say that is a good starter plant to work with. But it's different for every individual.
Absolutely.
[00:51:36] Unknown:
Do you know, Laura, that. Because I'm not sure if you know this, but the area where I live is actually called border and is
[00:51:44] Unknown:
The peony.
[00:51:44] Unknown:
Is the peony. That's Also I have this tattoo that is kind of a tribute to my land. Because we were also just thinking of, you know, doing something in my In my land. So from the land is really inviting you. Yes.
[00:52:02] Unknown:
I feel now even more cold now. That's very interesting.
[00:52:06] Unknown:
There are in Bulgaria, there's still wild peony is growing. So it's very beautiful, like one of the first flowers. And you see them in the. In the forest. Very beautiful.
[00:52:18] Unknown:
I've never seen them in the wild, growing in the wild.
[00:52:21] Unknown:
They also look very different compared to the cultivated ones.
[00:52:25] Unknown:
Yes, I can imagine. Yes. Yeah. I want to say something like I thought now when you said, like the cultivated ones, it's true. I mean, like, here in the grandma's.
[00:52:37] Unknown:
Ah.
[00:52:37] Unknown:
Like, every grandma has, like, puny in her garden. But the wild ones are, of course, totally different quality. But I just thought about the orchids. Nowadays, people go to Lido and they buy orchids. It's like just these very bourgeois plants, but actually wild orchids, and we have plenty of them here. They. Their name comes from Satyricon. From the satyrs, from these Greek nature, spirits. And I found this so interesting because, like, when, for example, in May, we do some excursions in, In places like, for example, in the Rudolph Mountain, and there are many wild orchids, and people just go crazy. I normally organize it around this, Beltane time. So where there is, like, a lot of, erotic energy around a lot of sexual energy.
But also, like the orchids, this, like, satire. Spirits contribute to this highly. Yeah.
[00:53:33] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:53:35] Unknown:
So it's funny, like, how, you know, like an accountant goes and buys an orchid, puts it somewhere in a very sterile way. But actually, the wild orchids, they're so untamed, and they bring this, very frivolous energy of the satyrs. Yes. Wow. One thing I wanted to ask to both of you.
[00:53:58] Unknown:
Ah.
[00:53:58] Unknown:
Maybe Annelise can come m. First. So how did the plants change the relationship that you have with yourself?
[00:54:10] Unknown:
Oh, I don't know. I think. Yeah, it's a very good question, I think also because I'm still on this kind of crossroad. I don't think I have figured that out. You know, Like, I feel like, there are firstly and for most, also lessons of self love. I think, you know, like, that learning about plants is actually learning to take care of myself and my, my body better, but also to, like. Also to slow down. Also, like, you know, the teachings are so numerous. yeah, I don't really know. But I think for me, the most important. Important what. What I feel right now, like, what is, currently very present is to, To step into more. Yeah, I want to say discipline, but it's not really the word. It's. It's more apprenticeship, I think, like, just to, like, that. That. That it Came to this point now where it feels like really the plants stepped in and said like, you know, through, through Stephen Bunner's, through, through all these experiences that they are really pulling me into their world and are kind of asking now, like, okay, you will study with us. And that it's like, okay, I'm not like, because, for example, one of the plants that called me most, this was two days before I got, my official test also that I have Borrelia, so from the Lyme disease. And there's this plant that just poke wheat or, poke root, poke berry.
and it's, growing there all these years, you know, but, but suddenly it just really pulls me in. And then you're really like, okay, I feel like this plant wants to really tell me something, like, eat me, consume me, do something with me. Right? Like, you start researching. Turns out to be very good, anti inflammatory, very good for the lymphatic system. And then just two days later, I get a diagnosis of Lyme disease. And then I noticed that this is one of the plants that is put in a lot of the standard formulas that, especially in the states where they, where it's more native. And, these are the kind of occurrences that, that keep happening, right? Like where before that I was foraging, I was gardening. And now it's like the plans that are pulling me into their world. And, I think I'm still on that threshold, you know, Like, I think that's in, in a way, I'm also different than most of your podcast guests thing. I think I'm still kind of dangling there, you know, like, should I take this one step where I'm like, sure that if I take it, I will, never be able to return? I think I took already a couple of such steps through my life, but this, this, this feels a bit different. So, yeah.
So I think that the upcoming change in the relationship with myself that will come is like learning how to really dedicate yourself to something. Like, for me, it's a step towards adulthood, like becoming an apprentice, of the natural world. And it's something that I'm a bit afraid of because I have very bad, like, I'm very bad with discipline, you know, Like, I, I, I don't do well with routine. Like, my desk is always in chaos, like seeds and like, everything is everywhere. but yeah, but yeah, ah, this is my experience consistently. And also, yeah, all, all the first plants that I'm learning to work with. It's, it's the same way they're pulling me in for, for example, mugwort. Right, like mugwort. She. She has been witnessing me gardening, you know, for years and years and years. I have this very majestic mugwort plant right on the corner of the area where I do vegetable gardening. And then, you know, after the pokeweed, that was then the question, okay, which herb will I next work with?
And then that was Magworth. And then Magurt taught me a song. so this is also, like, this year, the only plant that I really harvested a lot was mugwort. And while I'm harvesting, I'm singing the song that, came to me when I connected to this plant.
[00:58:46] Unknown:
Yes. And we have a recording of that mugwort song, right?
[00:58:49] Unknown:
Yeah, we can listen to it.
[00:58:54] Unknown:
Sa. May. So, Laura, how is it for you? How did it change your relationship with yourself to have this connection with the plants and the plants in the natural world? I mean, this question would mean that I didn't have it in the beginning, and then somehow I gained it. And it was not my experience. As I said from the very beginning, like, I felt part of this, realm. And, actually, when you're on the path of natural magic, which green witchcraft is part of, Natural magic works with the three kingdoms, the animal, the mineral, and the plant kingdom. So I always ask my students to check for themselves, to which kingdom do they connect the most? And most people can't answer this question for themselves.
And this is a very, very important question. This is why I, teach green magic, because I do connect to the mineral kingdom as well, but not in the way I connect to the plant kingdom. This came afterwards. And I have a very, like, my connection to the animal, kingdom is like, thin. It didn't develop. So I always say that you have to figure this out for yourself. Like, where do you stand? Because these are huge, huge fields and, you can't, you can't have it all. So just check for yourself where you are. And, for me, I. It was never, it was never a question, where do I belong? It was always like, the plants, the plant kingdom. And actually I do feel, even on a physical level, very like, anxiety feel if I'm in spaces without plants. That's why I put some fern here on the table just next to the.
Like Annelie said. But it's not going to be on the camera. But I mean, I'm just putting it for myself because, I really need it. It gives me. It calms me down. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. I really have this feeling of anxiety and you know, rooms where there are no plants present and you know, plastic plants do not cover it.
[01:02:07] Unknown:
No, they just contribute somehow. Better than nothing.
[01:02:11] Unknown:
I'm not, I'm not too convinced about that, that it's better than nothing. It's actually because. Yeah, it makes me feel even worse I think. But anyway, yes, I think this is such an interesting topic on how you know, this whole journey with plants brings us closer to ourselves and how One of the things that it, one of the main feelings that was there for me was that it was like a homecoming doing this whole journey with the plants and also realizing that my healing is not different from the healing of the land. It's very interconnected. And I think this is something that would like how to say. I would like to see this idea becoming alive in a lot more people and it would really help the world, I think.
[01:03:07] Unknown:
Yeah, that's also, it's really a field that, that, that pulls me also I think you know, because as, as a permaculture teacher, also working with food, forests, but now also working through my, my organization, my ngo, on a project, around eco psychology. And for me that is really also where I would like to go. I think that's, that's just so important, you know, like bringing more people into just in just, just awareness and reawakening like a ecological ah, consciousness. For me it's so important and I definitely believe plants help with that so much. Like I love that way. I think it was in Bumer's books that I read that the first time that it really like clicked something for me. It's just, you know, how often you know something for a long time but you didn't really know it. And then they're suddenly talking about how plants are the ones that you know, from the beings on the earth have learned to really synthesize light, you know, into, into an energy source. And it's like, okay, that's, you know, of course that's why plants are such great healers because they literally bring life into the system of the of the living world and then they can bring light into your life too.
I think it's very very important work right now to, to bring more people into not just knowing with their heads, but really being able to feel that interconnectedness and that we're all part of the same thing.
[01:04:53] Unknown:
M. Yeah, I mean just connecting to, to your thoughts. when you said like healing the land is Connected to healing myself. And I just think like we can't expect that we live in this sickness and that we are healthy. It's impossible. And I think the sickness just like it start long. It's the way of civilization as we know it. Because for. Let me just illustrate. I'm. I'm going tomorrow to I do celebrate of course the festivals on the pagan wheel of the year. Even though it's a modern concept, these festivals are very important because they mark changes in nature cycles. And I'm going there to celebrate Samhain. I'm going to Cantabria to a Celtic sanctuary with some millennial yew trees. And I do connect to m. These dark moon trees, very deep. And when I was searching like for forests, you know, in whole Europe you can't find them because they are just not existent. And to use were actually so sacred that for example for Celts, if you, if you cut down this tree, you're going to be killed yourself.
So the, the tree was so valuable as a human life. And even if not more I think more and I'm just going. And there's several trees standing there, but it's all set. You can't find these trees anymore. And you can't find them because of us humans and because of our path, the path we decide to call civilization. And hues for example are just something you can't experience. Like these spirits, like the spirit of every single type of tree. It's, it cannot be replicated by other type of tree. And you. They're like really ancient. They don't build these rings. You don't know how old they really are. But they could be there really for, for millennia. And I'm very, very excited really to, to meet them and to hear what they, what they're going to tell me. But it's just sad that I have to fly, you know, to Spain to meet these trees because we don't have them here.
But also like for example there are some maps of Europe where we can find. But you can find only singular trees. You can't find the forest. So there is one in Bavaria that I visited last year and there, there are two more in Spain, but that's it. I mean and for example all these British isils, they were covered with yew trees. And these were actually the first trees that were in Germanic territories as well. The first trees that were cut down by the Romans when the Romans came. Because the fruits of this of these trees they were used for the arrows of the Germans and the Celts, of the Germanics and the Celts and the, the Romans. They wanted to, to cut them down for to.
In order to kill their gods. Because for, for this type of pagans of heathens, the trees were sacred and their gods lived in these trees. And I just think about the laws. I think like we cannot be really healthy to be honest, because we are in this absolutely sick environment that is suffering. How do we pretend that we are healthy? By what? By eating vegan and bioproducts? I don't believe that. I don't buy this shit, honestly. I mean, I really think it's bullshit. I think it's part of capitalist narrative and I totally don't believe it. I think the only way to heal is to bring back to, to restore, as you said, Amelis, to restore forests, to plant, to plant, to plant. And that's it. That's for me the only way to heal.
Yes. I'm so glad you're sharing that Laura. And about the you, that is just spot on. I'm going to have an interview soon with Elin Van Diest. she's a you specialist in Belgium and yeah, she told me shortly everything that you have been telling ah. To the people here. So it's so fascinating indeed how this was one of the most sacred trees and how now it's virtually impossible. I mean you really have to go on a long trip to find old yew trees and to experience them and. Yes. And I also want to add to what you just said, like, Do you feel that eating like. Because that's what it is like for me, eating more wild plants is for me has. For me it has done so much on a level of a deeper connection with the plants.
And I'm wondering how you think about that. Absolutely empowering. I mean there is no comparison. I mean this is this is just the way it has to be. I mean you go here like we are now in the city and there you see the, these bioproducts in this plastic or for example. Okay. Or in paper, on paper plates, but still it's all artificial. It's just for modern day people and it cannot be. I mean you don't have your personal experience picking this herb, this flower and. Yeah, of course I, I mean for me like foraging is absolutely connected to self empowerment.
[01:10:34] Unknown:
Absolutely. And symbiosis. I think for me that that came in also very strong as a, as a teaching where I used to think.
[01:10:47] Unknown:
Of.
[01:10:51] Unknown:
Of eating as just consuming. Right. Whereas the teaching that came from the plants is like no, this is symbiosis, right? Like it is literally, taking part in each other. Right. Like it's when you allow the plant to come into you, you're starting to have something that is more than the both of you. You're allowing this to become a part of yourself. And I believe that in, in so many levels, like the microbiome, the, the physical level, the spiritual level, like in all of those dimensions, I think that, that that is a applicable and I think that yeah, that's a really huge shift that we that we can make that it's actively partaking in each other, instead of just consumption. But of course we live in an economical reality that is focused a lot more on consuming. and in fact I was told by the clans that it's actually. It doesn't matter so much what you put into you. It matters a lot what you put out. And I think that's also a very a very profound truth that yeah, it's still about taking action. And what do you leave? What is your ecological function as a person?
[01:12:13] Unknown:
Hm.
[01:12:15] Unknown:
And I see this idea of ecological function in a very profound way. Right. Like in a very like spiritual reality of this is what we share, this is what we're here to do, like on a soul level. Our purpose is to be part of this ecology. So what do you do with that and what do you allow inside yourself to help you do that? Yeah.
[01:12:42] Unknown:
Monte, so valuable like really what you're saying. I think this why a lot people suffer from many psychological issues because they just like let's say this kind of connectedness is still in their subconscious mind. It didn't reach their consciousness, the conscious mind, and they're just somewhere stuck and with depression and not feeling connected and asking about the sense of their lives. M. Yeah. We live like of course in times where people are just severely injured by the ways of civilization. And what you said, what do you put out? Like concrete? Like when we now for example, take a look out of the window, like we see these huge concrete buildings. I mean of course if you produce something like this, if you live in such a landscape, it doesn't bring happiness to your soul no matter what you tell yourself.
It's actually deprivation of some kind. Yes, yes. Yeah.
[01:13:47] Unknown:
And that's also there's a friend of mine, she, she studied architecture and she did her, she was doing her PhD around traditional architecture in Portugal. But her, her way of looking at things was so beautiful. As a, as an architect, she said like our, our building is supposed to be a breathing in and a breathing out of the landscape. Where the breathing in is when you go and collect the materials and then you breathe out and that's, you know, your placement of the building. But right now, I don't know, we are breathing in from, from the other side of the world to put our building down. It just, I have, yeah, just, just, just a thought that came up. I think that that's also very beautiful way of looking at at architecture and how we have our, like what we surround ourselves with should be a reflection of our inner state and the other way around, right?
Yeah.
[01:14:52] Unknown:
So another question that I have, like, in Bulgaria, if you want to learn more about plants, and it can involve the work that you're doing, like in the permaculture, the spiritual connection to the plants, but also if you just want to learn how to use them medicinally, how accessible is it to find good herbal schooling? Do you have any idea of that? It's not my specialty. I mean, I just know that there are some schools, but definitely it's not so trendy like in the West. Yeah, it's more like, I would say grandmas like still using it. Like even they don't call themselves herbalists. But like my, my grandma would make always like for herself some tinctures out of plants.
And she never said like, oh, I'm a herbalist, I'm a wise woman. I mean these are like terms I, I learned in English, you know. Yes. So she, she knew how to use all of that. And and just the concept, you know, you have to go to some school just shows how that this essential knowledge is of course lost somehow. So I know that there are like some schools, but as I said, it's not my, my specialty. Like herbalism.
[01:16:19] Unknown:
Yeah. It's also not very popular to have this. like there are some. But in most of the, in most of the provinces, like when I was looking, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't be able to find anything. But on the other hand. Yeah, that's what we mentioned. I think that access to the land to allow the land to teach you and then just do your own research. It's very available.
[01:16:41] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:16:42] Unknown:
So I'm not sure, like, maybe it's because people find their way easier anyway and then don't need it, that it doesn't exist so much or.
[01:16:51] Unknown:
Yeah, I think. So what you say Is like something also like a big difference like related to like western countries. Because land here used to be very cheap. And a lot of people like everybody here has like some property. And that's not the case in western countries. I bought a house when I was 30 and I was not rich at all. I mean it was of course a house, ah, in a very bad condition. I was sleeping outside. I needed years to repair. But I mean it's such a luxury, such a privilege. Yes. And what Anneliese, you said. I think people don't need it that much because. Because everybody here, like even people in the cities, everybody has some connection to non urban areas where they can go. There are some grandparents that prepare still some herbal tinctures and stuff. They pick them up, bring them to the cities. So I don't think people have really this need for herbal schools in the way it's maybe needed in countries where people don't have this access to to land. Yeah.
Yes. It's interesting. Would it be correct to say that that there is like not really an institution, institutionalized way of herbalism or foraging. But that it's just like a thing that people do and there is no like legal framework that is really strict about this, but that just people have the freedom to, to pick the plants and to learn from the land. From the land and from the plants themselves. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, I was so surprised when a friend of mine told me that when she was in France she was not allowed to plant like certain types of seeds. For me this was like what really. I mean it was shocking this concept. I. For the first time I came across something like that.
[01:18:48] Unknown:
Or to pick. Like there's many areas, like you can pick. Like when I grew up there, it's you know, not a lot to pick mushrooms or Yeah. In Bulgaria you can.
[01:19:01] Unknown:
Yes, that, that is. To me that's totally different than in Belgium. Right on the list.
[01:19:06] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think there is any legal framework also around herbalism. I believe you can call yourself a herbalist, but if it becomes medical, like there are some people that have like a ah, herbalist pharmacy and so on. I assume that they need some better education, if you will call it a herbal pharmacy. Probably they, they need to prove some. No, also nothing.
[01:19:32] Unknown:
No, you're just a business person. But like this is like what. I also think that brought a lot of free spirited people to the country. Just this space that you have, you know, to pick things to grow things on your own. And this is what we see like in all these abundant areas. We have many foreigners living here because not because it's accessible and because it gives people, not just because it was cheap like to buy properties or some piece of land, but also because it does give you the, the context, or the ability to experiment. This is so important.
That's lovely actually.
[01:20:14] Unknown:
Yes, yeah, I fully agree with that. Like, I think, you know, sometimes when you look at the socio. Economical, political status, it's like, okay, a little not always going in the direction that you would like to see it. But but the freedom that you feel by. I always say this to, to my partner that what I love most is that I have the freedom to fail here. Like, I really like that, having the freedom to fail.
[01:20:45] Unknown:
But that's a really important process of learning, right? Failing. And, and you have to have the space to, to fail.
[01:20:53] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah. Ah, yeah. I, because I feel like in a lot of Western or what I know from Belgium, like, you know, there's just such a pressure to be on your game. It's like a sink or swim situation. I do feel in that respect, like Bulgaria is a lot more gentle. Like I can literally I could decide to do a year very, very like, you know, doing only the minimal in terms of earning income or like, you know, spending all my time. In fact, there's been a year that I was struggling through depression quite a lot actually because of a breakup. And then it was just foraging that, that, that, that actually saved me. Like I was literally just every day in the forest.
It's the only thing that I did, you know, was lie in my bed RV in the forest and foraging. And I think, wow, if I would be in Belgium, I could not see myself being able to, to, to fail in that way and then to save myself with the nature like that.
[01:21:56] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And when it comes to freedom, I also have to think about you, Laura, calling yourself like, you know, you are teaching green magic. And I'm just imagining how people in Belgium would react to that. I'm, I'm not too sure about that actually. So how do people in Bulgaria react to that when you tell them that you teach green magic? with great curiosity. Because I mean they hear green, so obviously I'm not like this evil witch that is gonna curse them with the great curiosity. And yeah, I mean it's like the term, the term magic was difficult.
Like I always have to explain what magic truly is and that it's not about cursing people. It could be, but it's the general, like, function is not this one. And, But yeah, I mean, the fact that I just leave from my. From my school shows that, there is very big interest. So I quit. Like, I was in the very beginning. I'm a German philologist, so I was, in the beginning working at the university. When I returned after this, experience in the caves on the, Canary and Balearic Island. So for. In the, like. Yeah, in the beginning I was, you know, having this project, but also I was working at the university, teaching there, and I gave it up because I just didn't have the resource to do both.
And I just fully immersed myself into my vocation. Because for, me, it's a vocation, it's not a job. And I love that you say that. It's a vocation, it's not a job. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Also, you know, it's so interesting, like, I can't compare with Belgium. I was there just once. But, you know, for example, what I find very interesting, like talking about the Balkans, is like, for example, I. I do find a big difference, in the density of nature spirits, like how many you come across and their varieties. when I, for example, relate, like, compare Bulgaria to Greece because I don't know for what reason, but maybe it's their mythology and there is this Gregor that is still there. But, like, when I always say to my students, if you want to learn, connecting to.
If you want to come across nature spirits, the easiest is to go to Greece. I really don't know. It's like, so. So abundant of them. They're everywhere. They're satyrs, they are nim. They're nymphs, and it's their centaurs. It's really crazy. And a lot of people, here, for example, go to Samo Trace, which is a Greek island, in northern Greece. And I find this very interesting because it became like, hugely popular among Bulgarians. And, I did the wild camp there last year. And it's a place with very pure waters. So it was such a healing process, you know, to.
I thought, like, when is the last time I went to river from. From where I could drink water, you know. And this is also a huge loss because our. Our waters here are very polluted. And just to see this pure water, like it was healing on itself. But of course, like, just thinking that, that all the blood of the earth is polluted, of course, brings us back to this previous thought that we cannot Be healthy in such environment. Like I had this footage. Like, there was a guy from Australia who came to he wanted to m. Shoot a movie here about Orpheus and what happened to him after Erydici. So he came all the way along from Australia to goat and he was like, you know, oh, let's go to the sacred Hebrews River.
But this river is nowadays so polluted that it was just very, very difficult to find the spot where to shoot the movie. And I was really laughing. I was saying, man, you better invest your money in some ecology. Ecology project here, you know, to remove all these piles of. It's just. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. So actually the areas that are let's say close to cities or in cities, are very polluted because people don't have this consciousness of preservation. So the areas that we speak about, the nice ones, are the abundant ones where there are no humans or very few humans.
Yeah. Laura, how do you see the future, of people and plants and the planet? Oh, I think that we are crossing some, some edge and we are going to place where there is no return, meaning that we have to take a stand. I think like nowadays, like there are many people that are like, I don't know, like, where do I belong? And I think we are going to a moment very soon, really very soon, where people have to. Truth aside, and I think we're going to have like this double reality with people that live in small communities, really integrate, this interconnectedness are part, are part of the web of life. And on the other hand we're going to have these people that are totally disconnected, very sick and fancy. They're going to be one like, the majority will be humans or some robots. So I see it like very polarized. Yeah. This is how I feel that the course of the river is flowing, the polarization.
Okay. And Annelise, what is your take on the future?
[01:27:49] Unknown:
Yeah, I think I see it similar. like we already surpassed 1.5 degrees global warning. I really see, see the landscapes suffering. I fear a lot that most people are vastly under educated and underestimating what, what is to come. And yet if you're asking about the futures of plants and people, I, I, do believe that for the west they will come closer again. I do believe there will be. I see a lot more plan people being called back to that. And I think it's something that maybe you have to believe in. There's only few things you can do facing, climate change and some of the things that you can do is become more of an adult. Create.
I mean, in the ecological sense, maybe in the sense of the work of Bill Potkin and so on. Really growing out of the adolescence that are soc. Society seems to be stuck in, in investing your time into providing education, you know, in, in the various forms. Like not saying that you have to become a teacher, but tell people about it and save lives are regenerate lens. So these are the three things, maybe the three main things that you can do. And I, I think that plants are calling people actively for this work. I think from the other beings, you know, they are the ones that are calling most actively, I think, towards humanity. So I have to believe that there is a future where plants and people are closer again.
And at the same time I also think that we should be prepared for, Yeah, for, for a rough future. For a rough future for all of us.
[01:29:54] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think somewhere we have like the moral duty to remain hopeful and to remain constructive because that's, that's more than just being hopeful, you know, it's. Yeah. and by any means we should be connecting more with the plants. I think this is something we can all agree on. and I think this is a lovely way to close our conversation. We just should all invest our time and invest our energy into just connecting more with the plants, eating them, working with them and in whatever way it is. And, and keep powdering our nose with dandelion pollen. So, dear Wildlings, I hope you enjoyed this episode and I, hope to see you for the next one. Bye. Bye.
A warm thank you for listening. Wildy, are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com. thank you so much. Much. Welcome to Wild the Podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes.
Working with plants has become more popular. But I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal. I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and plants.
And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Hello, Wildling. Welcome to a new episode of Wild the podcast for herbalists and foragers throughout Europe. And today, I'm doing something very special. I do not have just one guest, but I have two guests. One of them is Laura Mouret. She's a practitioner of green magic and occult botany. And then there's, Anneliese Buchenhout, who is a totally immersed into plants. She's a permaculture teacher and a forager.
And both of you live in Bulgaria, right?
[00:02:51] Unknown:
Yes, since, I live here since 10 years.
[00:02:54] Unknown:
I live here since seven. Seven and a half. But I'm originally from Bulgaria. I just moved back, like, seven and a half years ago. Yeah. All right. Okay. So what I would like to know, how did each of you discover herbalism and herbs and foraging as a passion? Being a plant person, I know that you're not like, that you haven't studied herbalism as. As a course, but, I know you work with the herbs a lot. So what initially drew you into this path?
[00:03:30] Unknown:
Yeah, I think for me, that's. As for most of your guests, I believe on the podcast, it's of course, it's a life story. But for me, for sure, things got into more, rapid pace once I arrived in Bulgaria. And I think for me, what really brought me on the path actually is so 10 years ago when I came here to Bulgaria, I was living in the forest for four months, in a cotton canvas tent with my cats. And it was the most spectacular time of my life. I experienced then also what I think we can refer to as an echo awakening. So it's some kind of combination, of a spiritual awakening, but also for the first time, really feeling so deeply connected, with nature, where you start feeling like we're all. We're all related.
Where I can literally feel a tree where I would, like, be camping. And then I see a viper. And then the viper just becomes my body, even though that's actually, you know, if it bites you, it's a venomous snake. So, I think that's. That's the first, ingredients. Right? Like, and also I decided to stay in Bulgaria. That was a whole new level of my being, I believe that was, that was opened. But then also since, since a year, I, was diagnosed with Lyme disease. And looking for, answers for my own healing, I got to know Stefan Buhner, Stefan Herod Bruner. He wrote a lot about, herbalism for Lyme disease.
But what caught me even more was when I heard this man speaking for the first time. I was like, this is my guru. This man is speaking all the words that I feel inside me. And he had such an eloquent way of formulating that all. And then I really went back into, you know, questioning myself, my path, what I've been doing here for 10 years, and realizing also that I've been a plant person all along, remembering suddenly a dream that I had, once when I had 39 degrees fever. And then in the middle of the night in that fever state, I would, see myself in the garden.
And, like, hundreds of plant beings literally came out of the. Out of the bushes, out of my garden and came to see me. And then there was Beetroot in the front, in the front of the. Of. Of all of these beings. And Beetroot said, well, we came to meet you and to tell you that you should consume me more. And, yeah, that's just this kind of flashback that then once I. I found in Stefan Bunn. He's. He. He's speaking about his experiences. And then, I think it really suddenly clicks in that you've been on this path already for 10 years. Although, you know, through permaculture courses and just foraging, living in the wild and so on. I wasn't really consciously, consciously walking that planned path yet. But now, because of the disease and feeling that I'm on crossroad in my life, this has really brought a lot more to the foreground. And, then I feel very, very inspired to go into the direction of herbalism, and eco consciousness. Eco awareness or like eco depth psychology.
Yeah, that's roughly my story.
[00:07:14] Unknown:
All right. Thank you. Anneliese and I agree on the books of Bunner. He's one of my favorite authors. And I think I have most of his books. They just so inspiring. Yes. Like the one on plant intelligence. It's. It's just a must read. I think if you're a plant person, you just have to read his books.
[00:07:34] Unknown:
They're so inspiring. So sad. By the way, that was a double thing. Just like I found out about him only one year after his passing. But now, ever since I found out about him, he somehow reappears all the time. I have this feeling like Stefan Buner caught me by the hand. And I just. I don't know, it's like he's the grandfather that I wish I had. Like, I love my grandfather too. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. But somehow, Yeah, he's amazing. And,
[00:08:03] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes. And I think his work lives on. Definitely. it's of such high value. Yes. So, Laura, how was it for you? How did you get started with plants? M. You know, actually, I never felt, like, drawn to urban settings. Like, for me, even though I'm from Sofia, from the capital, like, I actually always spent my weekends in nature, like the village of my grandma. And like, I have a very clear memory of being like, maybe six or seven years old with a thunderstorm in the forest and being like, super thrilled and super excited. I didn't have, like, fear at all. And this is like all these experiences, like, that I grew up with. I mean, for me they were natural. And what was not nature was going back to Sofia. And I clearly remember, like, when I was 14, being, in the mountain and returning from the mountain, and my mother, like, having the TV switched on. And I just asked her to, you know, to stop it, like to turn it off. Because it felt so natural. And this is when I quit, like, watching tv.
[00:09:14] Unknown:
Tv.
[00:09:14] Unknown:
Because to me it felt like, like very artificial. Like really artificial. And, actually I was always, like, guided by nature spirits. Since I'm a Child. So I never had a teacher on the physical realm, like, a teacher, like, person. And, before coming back to Bulgaria, I wanted to meet, like, my absolutely basic fears, like, what is it to live without any money? So I was living, on some islands in Spain, but just in nature. So for me, it was a very. Yeah, a very, like, dreamy realm. Dreamy realm where you're just submerged totally. And then, through destiny, through the moiras, I had to return to Bulgaria, which was not my wish.
And, then after, like, a couple of months here, I had this calling to start this, school for green magic and, occult botany. So when I found the house for this place, it was very, very interesting because I went to this place and I had some. Some food with me, but it was on a plastic plate. So when I started eating it, the wind came and it blew away this plate.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
So the.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
The food was on the ground. So I started recollecting it and wanting to eat it. And then I heard, no, this is for us. So it was the nature spirits that immediately, like, made contact with me on this place. And this is the place where I run the school and where I'm. I'm living, like, for five years. Yeah.
[00:10:58] Unknown:
Wow.
[00:10:58] Unknown:
Very fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, Annalise. Ah, you as a Belgian living in Bulgaria, and you, Laura, as a native Bulgarian. How do you perceive the differences when it comes to, like, the way people are connected to nature or cultural differences when it comes to foraging? How do you see that?
[00:11:26] Unknown:
Yeah, I think, for me, the first thing that I noticed relating, to this question, right. Is when I kind of crossed the borders into the Balkans, I noticed so much biodiversity, like, really. And I think that was the first thing that I was like, wow, nature is so rich here. And mostly, like, little things on the side of the road. For example. Right. Like, in Belgium, we have a history of using a lot of, pesticides on the sides of the roads. And here, a lot of these things are left more, untouched. If that's because of a respect of nature or not. I think that's just, like, a lack of, you know, like, not maintaining those roads between the villages. Letting them be wild.
[00:12:13] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:12:14] Unknown:
But the result, of course, is to just so amazing. And, Yeah, like, people. Yeah. you do see that people forage still more, especially also mushrooms and so on. although I do think that that in the. In the modern, day now, I think it's rather, like, superficial still. Like, I think a lot of people are, afraid of Certain things. So it's not like it goes super deep. It's like it's still there in the culture. but, for example, let's say if they're picking mushrooms, then most people, what is like, generally known in the culture, they know how to pick five mushrooms or something. While the people that really go deep into foraging, they will know, of course, oh, there's like 20 different edible species around here.
So, yeah, that's a bit my. My experience of how I perceive, Like, it's.
[00:13:10] Unknown:
It's.
[00:13:11] Unknown:
For me, it's very paradoxical country because I feel like people are very, very connected to their nature because there is more wilderness and at the same time because maybe because of poverty, like, caring for nature is absolutely not their priority. So it's like this very strong paradox, kind of the opposite, you know, the opposite of Belgium, I feel like, in that way. I don't know, Laura, what you.
[00:13:39] Unknown:
Yeah, I feel the same. Like, when I was studying, I was studying in Australia, in Germany, and I never felt like I want to stay there. And the reason was civilization, because I felt like there, wherever you go, you can't have solitude. I always felt like all paths have been walked. You know, I'm in nature and I mean, I go to mountain hut and all of a sudden, like, I have 10 varieties of cakes that I can choose from, from, like, being Bulgarian, having grown in this post. Like, you know, I'm born just one year, before the transformation. So I didn't grow up with this abundance, you know, of things. And, so this civilization kind of. It was very repulsive. Like, I. I disliked it strongly. And I always knew low, like, okay, I'm going back. And, actually, in Bulgaria, what happened is when the democracy came, a lot of people moved to urban settings and all these village structures were destroyed. And this is why nowadays, like, we have really, like, ghostly villages where nobody lives or very few people live. Like, for example, in the village where I live, there are 70 people, but we don't have, for example, a shop. And I'm, the, youngest person in the village. So, of course, if you live in such settings, it's very, very difficult to make a living or like, to have social life because most people are just, older. Like, for a younger person, it's difficult.
But all of that, like, there are many challenges. But also, like, all of that really tempted me because it really gives me the feeling that, you know, when I. When I'm home and when it's time dark, I just hear the chuckles and it's like. And I live, like, just I'm. I live in Sredna Gora, which is called literally. It means, middle forest, like from Lord of the Rings. So it's like middle land. And we are just on top of one of these hills of Sredna Gora, which was a very important, place for Thracian sanctuary. So all around are these sanctuaries.
And I really, like, I feel in a web of sacredness. So for me, this feeling is just the best I could wish for. It's like living a dream and actually like a real witch. When I moved there, I was the last. I had the last house. But, like, after, like, a year, like a couple moved in. So I don't live in the last house. But still I just have to leave from the house. And like, after three minutes, I'm just alone, you know, like, there is no village. They are just the chuckles, the wild animals and the nature spirits. And you clearly feel that it's. It's their territory and you're on their territory. And this, for me, it's what makes Bulgaria so special because, you know, we, like, our population decreased like we were when I was a teenager. We were around 8 millions. Now we are 5 million. And I feel for the nature itself. It's kind of good, we can say, because, like, nature takes back, you know, it takes back and like, a lot of people are just. Let's say we are now in Sofia. Like, more than 2 million people live here.
And all the countries, 5 millions. So you have all these vast territories where you're just can really go in touch with nature spirits. And this can't happen. when you're in a place where civilization made its way, it could be a village, but still it's civilized, humanized nature. And for me, this is not nature. Yeah. So could you say that civilization has taken away the magic of nature? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was just reading like a couple of days ago about the deforestation process of Ireland, and it's so sad. And we went through this, you know, I mean, even in. Even. Even though the Romans were pagans, I mean, the way they destroyed like, Germanic lands, Germanic woodland, Celtic, woodlands. It's, you know, we are so, like, it's all set. I mean, it's something that. I mean, for example, Ivy, just to give you a current example, let's not talk about some, woods. The woods that are gone for centuries. But like, Ivies, for example, a lot of people think that Ivies, they are poisonous and that they are going to kill the trees they grow on.
But in order for an ivy to produce resin, and this resin is something very, very special, it has to be 100 years old. And I have never seen such old ivy in Bulgaria. And I remember the first time I met such ivy in. On on an island in Greece. I was overwhelmed and that the trees they were growing on were fine. But this is the civilization process. We go like, oh, we want to protect the tree, we're going to cut the ivy. I mean, this is just stupidity, human stupidity. And And actually nowadays authors, they still have these debates because the ancients, they wrote a lot about the ivy racing and they were like m. But. But nowadays people are like, was this really ivy that. This racing that they talk about? Because we don't have the experience of knowing personally IV Racing. So that's it. Yeah.
Very interesting, yes. So Laura, can you share like a very specific Bulgarian herbal practice? No, I can't. There is no such thing, you know, because first I, as I told you, I learned from. From creatures that are not Bulgarians. These are spirits, nature spirits and elemental forces. So I do go in contact with them. And I'm not familiar with these Bulgarian practices. And it's funny because always when I have workawears or some foreign people coming, they're always like, oh, you're a Bulgarian, you have to know to tell us something about Bulgaria. I can give you some historical context, but I never like. My process was always practical, like, experience, experiential. It was never like, oh, I, read books. And then I just quote what is written in books. Never.
I'm just like, maybe I should ask. The question to Anneliese, because I know I have become more aware of what was typical for my culture here in Belgium through friends that came from other countries and that told me, hey, this is like a typically Belgian tradition that you do like at Christmas or you know, at a special time of the year. So Annalise, is there anything you can share with me?
[00:20:24] Unknown:
Yeah, I don't think I can like. But firstly, for example, just like the quality of the herbs is like that you would find in in a regular shop, right? Like the quality of the herbs that you would find in a regular shop is vastly better than what you can find in Belgium. And I think that's just because of the climate and that there's just still such a richness. For example, wild thyme. In Bulgarian Masterka, there's so many different herbal mixtures. The Climate is also so diverse. So you have mountains, you have plains, you have the seaside. So there's a bit of everything.
and I think in, in the pharmacies also I see that, that quite a lot more preserved. Like people do go to herbal and like vitamin, vitamin supplements faster than that they would I think in, in Belgium. But like some of the things that really caught me is it's not really a herbal. Well, yeah, like there's a herbal tradition. They go and pick on which day in summer.
[00:21:29] Unknown:
The Saint John's. The Saint John's Midsummer.
[00:21:33] Unknown:
Yes, the Midsummer's Day. And it's like you, you still see that people actually go out and pick their herbs on this specific day. Yeah, because it's, it's, it's still like. Yeah. Passed on the knowledge that that's the day that so any of them. Yeah, yeah, you can, you can expect if you know something more about.
[00:21:54] Unknown:
Yeah, sure. But yeah, I just wanted to say like Bulgaria was a Christian country, but it really strongly preserved its pagan roots. So in our folklore we don't have this like, we never, we didn't have this kind of, you know, historical process where we were really like truly Christianized. So in all the folklore we have these very strong pagan elements and the church never, we didn't have this which burnings here. And that's the point still nowadays there are a lot of people practicing magic also black magic, like on the whole Balkans, not just in Bulgaria. But these are things that exist and this a huge difference. Like I'm going a bit of beyond the question, but just to compare. Like in the west, when you talk about witchcraft, people perceive it like a cool practice.
They connected to feminism, they relate to feminism. It's a practice of empowerment. When you talk about witchcraft in Bulgaria, people think immediately about evil magic. And I remember giving an interview on the national TV and that before the interview I was asked not to use the word magic. Of course I did it in the very first minute because I had to explain what magic is. But here like when you talk, because magic is still nowadays practice very widely spread, spread in And you, you can't really even meet the family where like like in every family you have these stories of at least one family member who was attacked by evil magic in my family as well. But it's really this evil magic that people relate to. So it's, it's very different. like the connotations witchcraft here on the Balkans in general and in the west, for example, let Me give you a very funny example. Like when I was studying in Germany, like, ah.
A guy I met, he told me that in his mattress, the mattress on which he's sleeping, he found the clock inside. But these ones that are ticking like you know. So for me it's clear that somebody put this and it's like evil magic. And for him it was, oh, how weird. So we have a totally different perception, you know, about if something like. You understand what I mean? So for them it's just something profane. It's weird. And not just for me, but for everybody here. Like everybody will be just suspicious that it's some kind of evil magic that has been done to the person.
Yeah. So this is a huge difference. Cultural difference. Yes. Thank you for clarifying that. And what I'm wondering is, do people use like certain plants to protect themselves from like evil magic? Not true plants, to be honest. And here comes the very other interesting. The very different, like another very diff. Interesting thing that like most of the population of Bulgaria are Christian Orthodox. Also there is a big Muslim community because most people are Christian Orthodox. But they stick so much to this Orthodox church that when there is evil magic, most people go to Muslim imam to cure. To take this evil magic away. Because these Imams, they are told how to remove these bad spirits or evil magic. And people have absolutely no problem, you know, being Christian and going to a Muslim, imam. And I had this very interesting story with. I had true to Ukrainian refugees to my place and they're also Orthodox. And I told them this practice and they were horrified. They were.
How does it come like in our country when you, when you suspect something like this? You go to the priest and he reads you. There is some Kirianic, Kyrianic like words that you say. And then you get rid of this. You don't go to a Muslim, imam. But this is what people here do on a daily basis. That is so fascinating to hear about these cultural differences. Anneliese, you want to add something to that?
[00:26:04] Unknown:
But speaking about protective plants, I think there was another. There's another interesting occurrence that I feel, For me something like this would, you know, would only occur in the Bulgarian landscape. Something that is very specific about the Bulgarian landscape for me, is that everywhere you walk you're just feeling like the history under your feet, you know, because there's been Roman Empire Ottomans. And you could just like be like Laura mentioned earlier also you could be in the middle of Nowhere. Nowhere. And, and just, you know, not see anyone. But then you will. Everywhere you are, you will find, like, you know, you will find this little clearing and then a, relief in the landscape that looks like there has been some structures before that. And, it's, you know, slowly I came to the understanding that it's rather known for. For example, in many areas of villages there. There are Roman settlements from before.
But what I wanted to mention is then, you know, from my forest walks, I started to notice that every time I'm, I'm finding this place where I have this feeling like, oh, people must have lived here before. And then you start looking around, and then you're seeing some structures. But also, I was always finding this same plant. It's like a prickly plant with a red berry. It's a evergreen. I forgot the name, to be honest.
[00:27:35] Unknown:
Rosehip.
[00:27:36] Unknown:
No, it's not the rosehip. Like a very prickly plant, very similar to host in Dutch. but, yeah, very sharp, prickly plant, low bushes. And then I started paying attention, you know, like, first I was always seeing these structures and then noticing the plants, and then I started reversing it. Like, when I see the plants, can I find some structures? and finally. No, green. Green with red. M. It's not edible berries. It's. The seeds are in a very, red berry. And finally I was able to identify it, but I don't remember the name right now. but then I found out that this is a plant that the Romans used. That it was known that the Romans used this for protection and that they would plant it around their house.
So this was, for me, like, the first one was like, wow, why are there so little amount of people doing, like, plant archaeology? I know it does exist, but I think the plants can teach us a lot about what used to be there. so that's a protective plant we do find in Bulgaria, but it's from Roman times. not currently used anymore.
[00:28:48] Unknown:
Actually, I work a lot with blackthorn, but blackthorn is actually very. You know, it's part of the Ogham Alphabet, and it's related to the Celtic tradition, like M. People here, really, they think it just. It's a weed. They even don't make anything from it. Like, they don't use it for liquors or anything. But I find this very interesting, you know, because it's growing, like, almost everywhere. And it's such an important, plant. Ah. For example, for the. For the Celtic folklore, but not here. So. Yeah, it's not always that you make use of whatever is there.
Yes. And I think it's also really fascinating to see how certain prickly plants, like they have thorns or in any other way, like stinging nettle, that in some ways it's like a very protective plant. And in other ways people just dislike it because of the prickly parts. So to me that's like, really fascinating to notice how, how there are two sides to this. How people see it as, you know, like a weed or like not even a, ah, proper plant because of the prickly parts. But on the other hand, how they use it as a protective, you know, for the protective, properties that the plant has. And it's always, you know, these two sides. And it's very interesting to. Yeah. To read and to hear about this and to find out about this.
Yes. Yeah. Because thorns are related to Mars. This is a signature of Mars. So Mars is a, principle of aggression. So people are kind of avoiding it. You know, it gives you a clear sign. Stay away. M. Yeah.
[00:30:37] Unknown:
But also, I think even in, I mean in a lot of European countries we were like, we were using these in the past, also more on purpose. Right. Like, so I think maybe we also have this negative connotation. But for example, in regenerative agriculture, these traditions are coming back. For example, if you wouldn't, like, if you don't want to put a fence, but if you want to do it more ecologically, you could have the thick hedges and then you will use a lot of what is called pioneer plants. Prickly. And. And it's also, it's their ecosystem. Like from an ecosystem point of view, it is their function. Right.
Like, on the forest edges where you will find those, those tight kind of plants. So their purpose literally is, Is to try and provide a barrier for wild animals, like to. To just, you know, slow down the being eaten of other plants. so it's quite fascinating, I think because we probably were purposefully using those two. Like if you really go plant that very densely, you shouldn't try squeezing yourself through a thick planted hedge. that has been really densely planted with, plants. So I think that's quite literally so, in our human way that we used it especially in the past, but now is being revived through regenerative, practices.
[00:32:03] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And I agree, like a, very thick hatch of hawthorn is very effective to keep the deer away from your vegetable garden. And Yes, I like the idea of it being a functional protection and then having also the symbol of the protection yes, that kind of resonates with me. I think that makes a lot of sense, on how plants are used oftentimes. Because hawthorn is also one of these really protective plants. And, yes, they do have a very important ecological function. Because if you just have a fence or you have, like, a hedge. And then you have the flowers for the bees and the berries for the birds. And lots of other small mammals that are, you know, making.
Making their little nests there and living there. And that is just so important. So, yes, I'm really happy to see this revival into these skills. And the reviving of hedges, hedge planting and, hedge weaving also. I think that's very important in today's world.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
I've been very inspired now since I found out that I have Lyme disease also, like, I'm, mostly recovered now thanks to the help of plants. But, Hawthorne was also one of the plants that I worked, with. Because of the positive influence on the. On the heart. And it's just like. That's an interesting plan because it's also protective. But at the same time, I have this, like, very warm, cuddly, fuzzy feeling, you know. When I made the tincture, of Hawthorne berries for the first time and I drank it, I was like, wow, this is beautiful. But it's like, I could drink it, you know, like, just, Just as a. As a liquor. It just feels so, like, literally heartwarming for me. And, because of. Yeah, so because of that also, I'm quite a lot more inspired to go plant more Hawthorne hedges around my property and have more hawthorn.
[00:34:07] Unknown:
You know, actually, for me, that doesn't sound so weird, Anneliese, because protection also gives safety. And so you feel. You just feel the safety, of the plant protecting you. It's like a, parent almost, or like an ancestor that, you know, a parent, a grandparent that protects. And that gives you this sense of safety. And, of course, in a way, plants. Well, not in a way. Plants are literally our ancestors. You know, they came from the sea. And they, colonized the land first. And they, made sure that the circumstances were in this way. That other life could exist on Earth. Like we. So, I really like to see that image in my head. When I hear you talking about, you know, The protective way of Hawthorne and other plants. Yes.
I would like to add something to this. Go ahead, Laura. Nowadays, people have this kind of very, like, Positive, you know, approach towards plants. But our ancestors actually did divide plants into positive, like, benefic and malefic ones. And they did fear certain plants, which is not the case with modern people because we have to reconnect back to them. So when you talk about it, like I just thought about for example hawthorns. That hawthorns were for, for example in, in Celtic culture they're they were seen as the home of fairies of she.
And these are these are spirits that could be very malefic and very hostile towards humans. So this is the, the reason why there are many like long standing hawthorns in Ireland. So I have to say that there are actually like also many trees like willows for example, or I'm not sure about the word in English, I think it's elder. This is a tree with red bark. When you cut it, the bark is red. Yes, yes. And they have these fruits when they fall, for example in the, in the, in the river, in the water, they make the water black. So it's like obsidian mirror and you can really SCRY there.
But this was something that people, let's say people that were our ancestors, they were really scared. Feeble magic of spirits, etc. Yes, and I think that also makes sense because like the willow and the alder, they were growing near water, or in the swamp. And of course these were dangerous areas for people to, to walk, especially before we had like electric lighting. And so I, I think there was a lot of stories surrounding these trees just to keep people, people away from these dangerous areas also. And yes, especially the alder. If you you know, like, if you cut it, it's like yellowish, but then through oxidation it becomes like really red. And even if the SAP is still coming out, it's like blood that is coming out of a tree. So this is of course a thing that speaks to imagination, I think.
Yes, I don't think it's imagination. I mean, I have to say, say that nature spirits are, I'm not going to say they're malefic, but I'm going to say they are not part of this consciousness of white and black, good and bad. I mean, nature spirits, like, you surely know about Karim Buer and I heard her talking on a podcast and I was like, oh, finally someone is saying that because nature spirits, they're not humans. So when you go for example to nature and you did bother them and you don't bring offerings, they, they could really harm you. So it's not our fantasy. I mean all these stories that are reported like, and they, that stayed in the consciousness as fairy tales, like for example you walk somewhere in the darkness and something happens to you. This was caused by nature spirits. And I can tell you like from my m. Personal experience, like nature spirits, they don't have any scruples like doing harm to people when people bother them, when people don't give them offerings, when people fear them. I remember being like in a like very spooky place in Greece, like abandoned medieval like village with my partner. And she was, she could feel the presence of these spirits but she was absolutely terrified, really terrified.
And I was afraid that they are going to harm her in some way. So I just want to make clear that from really from an experiential point of view, nature spirits and plants in general, these are very, their devils are very powerful. And powerful doesn't mean benefic. Or positive towards humans. So we have to take this into account. And this is why let's say people that didn't practice magic, they say it away and for a good reason. Yeah. So could you tell us something about how you work with these nature spirits? You know, they just connect to me. First of all, I always say when people go to nature, not to mountain, but really to civilize nature, they have always to bring some offering with them. Like I always bring like it could be like you know, some drink, they really like alcoholic drinks, some spirits or some dried flowers, some dried fetas. I had situations in my life where I was woken up in the middle of the night being in nature by nature. Spirits who tell, literally tell me like, give us offerings, give us offerings and they want their offerings. So I always recommend people to bring offerings just in case when they have their walks in nature and not in a park in the city because they might come across these spirits and they have to give something to the spirits.
But it could be that if the person just fears them or doesn't have anything, they're going to take their offerings no matter if the person believes in that or not. And this is what modern people don't understand. I mean these are presences that don't have physical forms, but they're still there and they want these offerings. And this is very important that we always are prepared to give something and if we don't, they can take it. And this could be really harmful for us as humans. Like the story with my food. I had to let this food for them and not to eat it. And they told me this. So I got it, I laid it.
Made it very clear. Yes. Yeah.
[00:40:48] Unknown:
Yeah. Earlier, before the interview we were talking with Laura, too, and she was also talking about this. And I was like, oh, yeah, now it all makes sense, you know, because I was. When I was living in the forest, for four months, and then I'm still, to this day, I'm so sad that I lost my ring, Like, a very beautiful ring. And I was like, it makes no sense to me that I could have lost it because, like, I've spent, like, seven years on the same location, going back there, having meditations, like, in that same location. And I just was always puzzling. It was also a very large ring. And I'm like, oh, yeah, of course, of course.
I lost this ring because, probably, yeah, that was the offer that was required. It does make sense now. But, yeah, I also. I wanted to share something around that. Around that fear, I think, isn't like, isn't that also, for me, what. What is a, a plant? Like, so whether it's magical or not, like, but this is something that we're seeing too, right? Like, people are so afraid of the. For example, the. The, Amanita muscaria, right? Like, it's like, oh, it's poisonous. You shouldn't eat it. And then, you know, you're educating yourself, right? Like, we are afraid of the unknown generally. So whether that is magical influences or spirits or if that's plants, I think it's because we don't know, that. That we get into these cultures of.
Of. Yeah, warning. And that makes sense, as Viva also said, right? Like, that it's. It's. It, you know, it's a, It's a safety mechanism. But for me, then that is the. The whole point, right? Like, to kind of go on a, on a planned path. It's like, hey, I want to get to know you and not. Not be afraid, right? Like, how can I really connect deeper to nature?
[00:42:42] Unknown:
That.
[00:42:42] Unknown:
That, for me is really, I think, the reason why I want to go on a planned path. It's. It's to know some. Someone deeper. And by knowing it, you're not so afraid anymore. You start learning. Okay? But, yes, this one is poisonous in a large amount, but if it's in a moderate amount, it can heal inflammation. it's so often the case, right? Like, that the most poisonous ones are, of course, the most medicinal ones. and, yeah, for me, that's really fascinating, and I think it speaks a lot. Like, this was something that we were talking about earlier. Like, so is modern civilization killing the magic? It's like, yes, of course. For me it's yes, of course.
In a culture like this, we are afraid. We are afraid of nature and afraid of plants because we don't know it anymore. I m think that's called an echognosis, right? Like our biognosis. When people grow up in the city and they don't really have enough access to the wild, you will just not have the same opportunity to develop this same connection. And I, always love to work with people and tell them, like, if you want to awaken this connection, you should at least go and sleep, a night in nature, but without a tent. You know, like bring a sleeping bag but no tent because we always build these walls. it's like human versus nature. But what does that mean? You know, are people saying like, oh, nature will survive, but we will. I'm like, what does it mean even nature will survive?
Do you mean will the plant survive? will humanity survive? Because aren't we nature? Will only the bacteria survive? Will the planet survive in an intergalactic way? People aren't even aware how big wall we have built, between us and nature. While in fact we are interconnected beings. Right? Like my lungs are an extension of the trees. You know, like when the tree breathes out, I breathe in, and when I breathe out, the tree breathes in. So we are inter, inter beings. This is the way that I, more and more like to look at things. And, and so for me, that fear of the unknown and then actively maybe engaging into activities that may make me just know more and not on the level of rational understanding, but like, get to know you. Like I want to know you. whether that's a plant or an ecosystem as a whole or a spirit or.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
Yes, that really cuts to the core of the issue to me. and I, I like this whole concept of interconnectedness. and yes, I think it's true. I see, especially with people that are out of tune with nature, how they try to divide nature into these different categories. Like, oh, but all orange colored berries are toxic, which is of course nonsense, but it's kind of, they try to do it just to get a grip on it because it's like such an huge unknown field for them and they just feel so insecure and so scared of it really.
[00:46:12] Unknown:
And sometimes the opposite. So many times I've heard, oh, but all mushrooms that grow on trees are edible, right? And I'm like, yes, yeah. Except, you know, some of the ones.
[00:46:23] Unknown:
Like, yeah, okay, I just want to add something to what you're both Saying, I'm going back to the realm of magic. So the words, the Germanic word for witch comes from hagatsusa, which means like the hedge rider. So talking about these hedge plants, I just want to make clear that not everybody, everyone is called to go beyond the hedge. So it could, could really be dangerous. So I just want to say this as a reminder of the fact that even our ancestors that were way more connected that modern people nowadays are, they knew that these wise women, they would go to them and ask for advice, etc. Of course they used on everyday basis, on daily basis, plants, unless, unlike modern people, but still for let's say magical purposes, etc, they would know that they have like this, they can't for example bridge this gap, on the other side of the hedge. And I think this is very, very important.
This is what I always also say in my courses, that the fact that people come and pay to take a course with me doesn't mean that they will get in touch, for example, that they're witches. You know, this very important to say because new Age, is like very related to capitalism and it's like, oh, whatever, like you pay for a shamanic course or you pay for a witch for a course into witchcraft and then you become a shaman or you become a ah, witch. But for me this is a calling and it's, it's not like I chose it, it choses me. It's the other way around. So I just want to say that there are these two very different dimensions of works with with plants. And I think that one has to realize where he or she belongs because in our times our ego is huge and everybody wants to be special and everybody wants to be a shaman and everybody wants to be a witch, but not everybody's called to be.
So this is just something I wanted to have. Yes. And I can feel the passion in your words. Yes. And one thing I wanted to ask you Laura, how, how is it do you have like certain plant allies plant that you work plants that you work a lot with? M. Well, the logo of of my brand is the peony. On the logo of my brand is the peony. It's a Jupiterian plant. So I really do connect to this a lot. But I also, I have to tell that actually yesterday I was in the in the mountain at night, at night time and there were these others. So outer is a tree of really high magic. So I would say that I would I would rather say that I connect to this Trees or plants that are related to the dark face of the moon. And I realized, because I'm also an astrologer, so asking people around, I just realized that depending on when the person was born on which phase of the moon they were born, these are the type of plants they connect to. So just to give you an example, for example, if you're born on a new moon, you're gonna connect with plants that are related to this type of plants that represent this archetype.
You know, the Here I refer to the frame of the three archetypes of the goddess. So the maiden, the mother and then the crown. So I was born on these three nights of hekate before the night, before the new moon. So I do connect to these plants that are kind of darker, even though I'm not practicing on the poison path, but like alder for example, with such a, ah, dark plant. And I would not recommend it to a person to work with, to start with if for example, this person was born on a new moon. And I found it very interesting in my recent course, I had a girl that was born on full moon. And full moon is related to the archetype of Ceres or Demeter.
And these are mother goddesses. Goddesses, fertility. So this girl was growing like these fruit trees on her balcony in the. And this didn't surprise me at all. And of course it's not the right thing for her to go to work with an with a black thorn or with an outer. She. She's just gonna scared by this experience. But it's also not the right thing for me to work with a, for example with a mango tree because I'm just. I don't connect to this archetype. Yes, yes. So do I hear you right if I say that this is not like a one size fits all thing? That there is not like a plant that you could say that is a good starter plant to work with. But it's different for every individual.
Absolutely.
[00:51:36] Unknown:
Do you know, Laura, that. Because I'm not sure if you know this, but the area where I live is actually called border and is
[00:51:44] Unknown:
The peony.
[00:51:44] Unknown:
Is the peony. That's Also I have this tattoo that is kind of a tribute to my land. Because we were also just thinking of, you know, doing something in my In my land. So from the land is really inviting you. Yes.
[00:52:02] Unknown:
I feel now even more cold now. That's very interesting.
[00:52:06] Unknown:
There are in Bulgaria, there's still wild peony is growing. So it's very beautiful, like one of the first flowers. And you see them in the. In the forest. Very beautiful.
[00:52:18] Unknown:
I've never seen them in the wild, growing in the wild.
[00:52:21] Unknown:
They also look very different compared to the cultivated ones.
[00:52:25] Unknown:
Yes, I can imagine. Yes. Yeah. I want to say something like I thought now when you said, like the cultivated ones, it's true. I mean, like, here in the grandma's.
[00:52:37] Unknown:
Ah.
[00:52:37] Unknown:
Like, every grandma has, like, puny in her garden. But the wild ones are, of course, totally different quality. But I just thought about the orchids. Nowadays, people go to Lido and they buy orchids. It's like just these very bourgeois plants, but actually wild orchids, and we have plenty of them here. They. Their name comes from Satyricon. From the satyrs, from these Greek nature, spirits. And I found this so interesting because, like, when, for example, in May, we do some excursions in, In places like, for example, in the Rudolph Mountain, and there are many wild orchids, and people just go crazy. I normally organize it around this, Beltane time. So where there is, like, a lot of, erotic energy around a lot of sexual energy.
But also, like the orchids, this, like, satire. Spirits contribute to this highly. Yeah.
[00:53:33] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:53:35] Unknown:
So it's funny, like, how, you know, like an accountant goes and buys an orchid, puts it somewhere in a very sterile way. But actually, the wild orchids, they're so untamed, and they bring this, very frivolous energy of the satyrs. Yes. Wow. One thing I wanted to ask to both of you.
[00:53:58] Unknown:
Ah.
[00:53:58] Unknown:
Maybe Annelise can come m. First. So how did the plants change the relationship that you have with yourself?
[00:54:10] Unknown:
Oh, I don't know. I think. Yeah, it's a very good question, I think also because I'm still on this kind of crossroad. I don't think I have figured that out. You know, Like, I feel like, there are firstly and for most, also lessons of self love. I think, you know, like, that learning about plants is actually learning to take care of myself and my, my body better, but also to, like. Also to slow down. Also, like, you know, the teachings are so numerous. yeah, I don't really know. But I think for me, the most important. Important what. What I feel right now, like, what is, currently very present is to, To step into more. Yeah, I want to say discipline, but it's not really the word. It's. It's more apprenticeship, I think, like, just to, like, that. That. That it Came to this point now where it feels like really the plants stepped in and said like, you know, through, through Stephen Bunner's, through, through all these experiences that they are really pulling me into their world and are kind of asking now, like, okay, you will study with us. And that it's like, okay, I'm not like, because, for example, one of the plants that called me most, this was two days before I got, my official test also that I have Borrelia, so from the Lyme disease. And there's this plant that just poke wheat or, poke root, poke berry.
and it's, growing there all these years, you know, but, but suddenly it just really pulls me in. And then you're really like, okay, I feel like this plant wants to really tell me something, like, eat me, consume me, do something with me. Right? Like, you start researching. Turns out to be very good, anti inflammatory, very good for the lymphatic system. And then just two days later, I get a diagnosis of Lyme disease. And then I noticed that this is one of the plants that is put in a lot of the standard formulas that, especially in the states where they, where it's more native. And, these are the kind of occurrences that, that keep happening, right? Like where before that I was foraging, I was gardening. And now it's like the plans that are pulling me into their world. And, I think I'm still on that threshold, you know, Like, I think that's in, in a way, I'm also different than most of your podcast guests thing. I think I'm still kind of dangling there, you know, like, should I take this one step where I'm like, sure that if I take it, I will, never be able to return? I think I took already a couple of such steps through my life, but this, this, this feels a bit different. So, yeah.
So I think that the upcoming change in the relationship with myself that will come is like learning how to really dedicate yourself to something. Like, for me, it's a step towards adulthood, like becoming an apprentice, of the natural world. And it's something that I'm a bit afraid of because I have very bad, like, I'm very bad with discipline, you know, Like, I, I, I don't do well with routine. Like, my desk is always in chaos, like seeds and like, everything is everywhere. but yeah, but yeah, ah, this is my experience consistently. And also, yeah, all, all the first plants that I'm learning to work with. It's, it's the same way they're pulling me in for, for example, mugwort. Right, like mugwort. She. She has been witnessing me gardening, you know, for years and years and years. I have this very majestic mugwort plant right on the corner of the area where I do vegetable gardening. And then, you know, after the pokeweed, that was then the question, okay, which herb will I next work with?
And then that was Magworth. And then Magurt taught me a song. so this is also, like, this year, the only plant that I really harvested a lot was mugwort. And while I'm harvesting, I'm singing the song that, came to me when I connected to this plant.
[00:58:46] Unknown:
Yes. And we have a recording of that mugwort song, right?
[00:58:49] Unknown:
Yeah, we can listen to it.
[00:58:54] Unknown:
Sa. May. So, Laura, how is it for you? How did it change your relationship with yourself to have this connection with the plants and the plants in the natural world? I mean, this question would mean that I didn't have it in the beginning, and then somehow I gained it. And it was not my experience. As I said from the very beginning, like, I felt part of this, realm. And, actually, when you're on the path of natural magic, which green witchcraft is part of, Natural magic works with the three kingdoms, the animal, the mineral, and the plant kingdom. So I always ask my students to check for themselves, to which kingdom do they connect the most? And most people can't answer this question for themselves.
And this is a very, very important question. This is why I, teach green magic, because I do connect to the mineral kingdom as well, but not in the way I connect to the plant kingdom. This came afterwards. And I have a very, like, my connection to the animal, kingdom is like, thin. It didn't develop. So I always say that you have to figure this out for yourself. Like, where do you stand? Because these are huge, huge fields and, you can't, you can't have it all. So just check for yourself where you are. And, for me, I. It was never, it was never a question, where do I belong? It was always like, the plants, the plant kingdom. And actually I do feel, even on a physical level, very like, anxiety feel if I'm in spaces without plants. That's why I put some fern here on the table just next to the.
Like Annelie said. But it's not going to be on the camera. But I mean, I'm just putting it for myself because, I really need it. It gives me. It calms me down. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. I really have this feeling of anxiety and you know, rooms where there are no plants present and you know, plastic plants do not cover it.
[01:02:07] Unknown:
No, they just contribute somehow. Better than nothing.
[01:02:11] Unknown:
I'm not, I'm not too convinced about that, that it's better than nothing. It's actually because. Yeah, it makes me feel even worse I think. But anyway, yes, I think this is such an interesting topic on how you know, this whole journey with plants brings us closer to ourselves and how One of the things that it, one of the main feelings that was there for me was that it was like a homecoming doing this whole journey with the plants and also realizing that my healing is not different from the healing of the land. It's very interconnected. And I think this is something that would like how to say. I would like to see this idea becoming alive in a lot more people and it would really help the world, I think.
[01:03:07] Unknown:
Yeah, that's also, it's really a field that, that, that pulls me also I think you know, because as, as a permaculture teacher, also working with food, forests, but now also working through my, my organization, my ngo, on a project, around eco psychology. And for me that is really also where I would like to go. I think that's, that's just so important, you know, like bringing more people into just in just, just awareness and reawakening like a ecological ah, consciousness. For me it's so important and I definitely believe plants help with that so much. Like I love that way. I think it was in Bumer's books that I read that the first time that it really like clicked something for me. It's just, you know, how often you know something for a long time but you didn't really know it. And then they're suddenly talking about how plants are the ones that you know, from the beings on the earth have learned to really synthesize light, you know, into, into an energy source. And it's like, okay, that's, you know, of course that's why plants are such great healers because they literally bring life into the system of the of the living world and then they can bring light into your life too.
I think it's very very important work right now to, to bring more people into not just knowing with their heads, but really being able to feel that interconnectedness and that we're all part of the same thing.
[01:04:53] Unknown:
M. Yeah, I mean just connecting to, to your thoughts. when you said like healing the land is Connected to healing myself. And I just think like we can't expect that we live in this sickness and that we are healthy. It's impossible. And I think the sickness just like it start long. It's the way of civilization as we know it. Because for. Let me just illustrate. I'm. I'm going tomorrow to I do celebrate of course the festivals on the pagan wheel of the year. Even though it's a modern concept, these festivals are very important because they mark changes in nature cycles. And I'm going there to celebrate Samhain. I'm going to Cantabria to a Celtic sanctuary with some millennial yew trees. And I do connect to m. These dark moon trees, very deep. And when I was searching like for forests, you know, in whole Europe you can't find them because they are just not existent. And to use were actually so sacred that for example for Celts, if you, if you cut down this tree, you're going to be killed yourself.
So the, the tree was so valuable as a human life. And even if not more I think more and I'm just going. And there's several trees standing there, but it's all set. You can't find these trees anymore. And you can't find them because of us humans and because of our path, the path we decide to call civilization. And hues for example are just something you can't experience. Like these spirits, like the spirit of every single type of tree. It's, it cannot be replicated by other type of tree. And you. They're like really ancient. They don't build these rings. You don't know how old they really are. But they could be there really for, for millennia. And I'm very, very excited really to, to meet them and to hear what they, what they're going to tell me. But it's just sad that I have to fly, you know, to Spain to meet these trees because we don't have them here.
But also like for example there are some maps of Europe where we can find. But you can find only singular trees. You can't find the forest. So there is one in Bavaria that I visited last year and there, there are two more in Spain, but that's it. I mean and for example all these British isils, they were covered with yew trees. And these were actually the first trees that were in Germanic territories as well. The first trees that were cut down by the Romans when the Romans came. Because the fruits of this of these trees they were used for the arrows of the Germans and the Celts, of the Germanics and the Celts and the, the Romans. They wanted to, to cut them down for to.
In order to kill their gods. Because for, for this type of pagans of heathens, the trees were sacred and their gods lived in these trees. And I just think about the laws. I think like we cannot be really healthy to be honest, because we are in this absolutely sick environment that is suffering. How do we pretend that we are healthy? By what? By eating vegan and bioproducts? I don't believe that. I don't buy this shit, honestly. I mean, I really think it's bullshit. I think it's part of capitalist narrative and I totally don't believe it. I think the only way to heal is to bring back to, to restore, as you said, Amelis, to restore forests, to plant, to plant, to plant. And that's it. That's for me the only way to heal.
Yes. I'm so glad you're sharing that Laura. And about the you, that is just spot on. I'm going to have an interview soon with Elin Van Diest. she's a you specialist in Belgium and yeah, she told me shortly everything that you have been telling ah. To the people here. So it's so fascinating indeed how this was one of the most sacred trees and how now it's virtually impossible. I mean you really have to go on a long trip to find old yew trees and to experience them and. Yes. And I also want to add to what you just said, like, Do you feel that eating like. Because that's what it is like for me, eating more wild plants is for me has. For me it has done so much on a level of a deeper connection with the plants.
And I'm wondering how you think about that. Absolutely empowering. I mean there is no comparison. I mean this is this is just the way it has to be. I mean you go here like we are now in the city and there you see the, these bioproducts in this plastic or for example. Okay. Or in paper, on paper plates, but still it's all artificial. It's just for modern day people and it cannot be. I mean you don't have your personal experience picking this herb, this flower and. Yeah, of course I, I mean for me like foraging is absolutely connected to self empowerment.
[01:10:34] Unknown:
Absolutely. And symbiosis. I think for me that that came in also very strong as a, as a teaching where I used to think.
[01:10:47] Unknown:
Of.
[01:10:51] Unknown:
Of eating as just consuming. Right. Whereas the teaching that came from the plants is like no, this is symbiosis, right? Like it is literally, taking part in each other. Right. Like it's when you allow the plant to come into you, you're starting to have something that is more than the both of you. You're allowing this to become a part of yourself. And I believe that in, in so many levels, like the microbiome, the, the physical level, the spiritual level, like in all of those dimensions, I think that, that that is a applicable and I think that yeah, that's a really huge shift that we that we can make that it's actively partaking in each other, instead of just consumption. But of course we live in an economical reality that is focused a lot more on consuming. and in fact I was told by the clans that it's actually. It doesn't matter so much what you put into you. It matters a lot what you put out. And I think that's also a very a very profound truth that yeah, it's still about taking action. And what do you leave? What is your ecological function as a person?
[01:12:13] Unknown:
Hm.
[01:12:15] Unknown:
And I see this idea of ecological function in a very profound way. Right. Like in a very like spiritual reality of this is what we share, this is what we're here to do, like on a soul level. Our purpose is to be part of this ecology. So what do you do with that and what do you allow inside yourself to help you do that? Yeah.
[01:12:42] Unknown:
Monte, so valuable like really what you're saying. I think this why a lot people suffer from many psychological issues because they just like let's say this kind of connectedness is still in their subconscious mind. It didn't reach their consciousness, the conscious mind, and they're just somewhere stuck and with depression and not feeling connected and asking about the sense of their lives. M. Yeah. We live like of course in times where people are just severely injured by the ways of civilization. And what you said, what do you put out? Like concrete? Like when we now for example, take a look out of the window, like we see these huge concrete buildings. I mean of course if you produce something like this, if you live in such a landscape, it doesn't bring happiness to your soul no matter what you tell yourself.
It's actually deprivation of some kind. Yes, yes. Yeah.
[01:13:47] Unknown:
And that's also there's a friend of mine, she, she studied architecture and she did her, she was doing her PhD around traditional architecture in Portugal. But her, her way of looking at things was so beautiful. As a, as an architect, she said like our, our building is supposed to be a breathing in and a breathing out of the landscape. Where the breathing in is when you go and collect the materials and then you breathe out and that's, you know, your placement of the building. But right now, I don't know, we are breathing in from, from the other side of the world to put our building down. It just, I have, yeah, just, just, just a thought that came up. I think that that's also very beautiful way of looking at at architecture and how we have our, like what we surround ourselves with should be a reflection of our inner state and the other way around, right?
Yeah.
[01:14:52] Unknown:
So another question that I have, like, in Bulgaria, if you want to learn more about plants, and it can involve the work that you're doing, like in the permaculture, the spiritual connection to the plants, but also if you just want to learn how to use them medicinally, how accessible is it to find good herbal schooling? Do you have any idea of that? It's not my specialty. I mean, I just know that there are some schools, but definitely it's not so trendy like in the West. Yeah, it's more like, I would say grandmas like still using it. Like even they don't call themselves herbalists. But like my, my grandma would make always like for herself some tinctures out of plants.
And she never said like, oh, I'm a herbalist, I'm a wise woman. I mean these are like terms I, I learned in English, you know. Yes. So she, she knew how to use all of that. And and just the concept, you know, you have to go to some school just shows how that this essential knowledge is of course lost somehow. So I know that there are like some schools, but as I said, it's not my, my specialty. Like herbalism.
[01:16:19] Unknown:
Yeah. It's also not very popular to have this. like there are some. But in most of the, in most of the provinces, like when I was looking, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't be able to find anything. But on the other hand. Yeah, that's what we mentioned. I think that access to the land to allow the land to teach you and then just do your own research. It's very available.
[01:16:41] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:16:42] Unknown:
So I'm not sure, like, maybe it's because people find their way easier anyway and then don't need it, that it doesn't exist so much or.
[01:16:51] Unknown:
Yeah, I think. So what you say Is like something also like a big difference like related to like western countries. Because land here used to be very cheap. And a lot of people like everybody here has like some property. And that's not the case in western countries. I bought a house when I was 30 and I was not rich at all. I mean it was of course a house, ah, in a very bad condition. I was sleeping outside. I needed years to repair. But I mean it's such a luxury, such a privilege. Yes. And what Anneliese, you said. I think people don't need it that much because. Because everybody here, like even people in the cities, everybody has some connection to non urban areas where they can go. There are some grandparents that prepare still some herbal tinctures and stuff. They pick them up, bring them to the cities. So I don't think people have really this need for herbal schools in the way it's maybe needed in countries where people don't have this access to to land. Yeah.
Yes. It's interesting. Would it be correct to say that that there is like not really an institution, institutionalized way of herbalism or foraging. But that it's just like a thing that people do and there is no like legal framework that is really strict about this, but that just people have the freedom to, to pick the plants and to learn from the land. From the land and from the plants themselves. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, I was so surprised when a friend of mine told me that when she was in France she was not allowed to plant like certain types of seeds. For me this was like what really. I mean it was shocking this concept. I. For the first time I came across something like that.
[01:18:48] Unknown:
Or to pick. Like there's many areas, like you can pick. Like when I grew up there, it's you know, not a lot to pick mushrooms or Yeah. In Bulgaria you can.
[01:19:01] Unknown:
Yes, that, that is. To me that's totally different than in Belgium. Right on the list.
[01:19:06] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think there is any legal framework also around herbalism. I believe you can call yourself a herbalist, but if it becomes medical, like there are some people that have like a ah, herbalist pharmacy and so on. I assume that they need some better education, if you will call it a herbal pharmacy. Probably they, they need to prove some. No, also nothing.
[01:19:32] Unknown:
No, you're just a business person. But like this is like what. I also think that brought a lot of free spirited people to the country. Just this space that you have, you know, to pick things to grow things on your own. And this is what we see like in all these abundant areas. We have many foreigners living here because not because it's accessible and because it gives people, not just because it was cheap like to buy properties or some piece of land, but also because it does give you the, the context, or the ability to experiment. This is so important.
That's lovely actually.
[01:20:14] Unknown:
Yes, yeah, I fully agree with that. Like, I think, you know, sometimes when you look at the socio. Economical, political status, it's like, okay, a little not always going in the direction that you would like to see it. But but the freedom that you feel by. I always say this to, to my partner that what I love most is that I have the freedom to fail here. Like, I really like that, having the freedom to fail.
[01:20:45] Unknown:
But that's a really important process of learning, right? Failing. And, and you have to have the space to, to fail.
[01:20:53] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah. Ah, yeah. I, because I feel like in a lot of Western or what I know from Belgium, like, you know, there's just such a pressure to be on your game. It's like a sink or swim situation. I do feel in that respect, like Bulgaria is a lot more gentle. Like I can literally I could decide to do a year very, very like, you know, doing only the minimal in terms of earning income or like, you know, spending all my time. In fact, there's been a year that I was struggling through depression quite a lot actually because of a breakup. And then it was just foraging that, that, that, that actually saved me. Like I was literally just every day in the forest.
It's the only thing that I did, you know, was lie in my bed RV in the forest and foraging. And I think, wow, if I would be in Belgium, I could not see myself being able to, to, to fail in that way and then to save myself with the nature like that.
[01:21:56] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And when it comes to freedom, I also have to think about you, Laura, calling yourself like, you know, you are teaching green magic. And I'm just imagining how people in Belgium would react to that. I'm, I'm not too sure about that actually. So how do people in Bulgaria react to that when you tell them that you teach green magic? with great curiosity. Because I mean they hear green, so obviously I'm not like this evil witch that is gonna curse them with the great curiosity. And yeah, I mean it's like the term, the term magic was difficult.
Like I always have to explain what magic truly is and that it's not about cursing people. It could be, but it's the general, like, function is not this one. And, But yeah, I mean, the fact that I just leave from my. From my school shows that, there is very big interest. So I quit. Like, I was in the very beginning. I'm a German philologist, so I was, in the beginning working at the university. When I returned after this, experience in the caves on the, Canary and Balearic Island. So for. In the, like. Yeah, in the beginning I was, you know, having this project, but also I was working at the university, teaching there, and I gave it up because I just didn't have the resource to do both.
And I just fully immersed myself into my vocation. Because for, me, it's a vocation, it's not a job. And I love that you say that. It's a vocation, it's not a job. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Also, you know, it's so interesting, like, I can't compare with Belgium. I was there just once. But, you know, for example, what I find very interesting, like talking about the Balkans, is like, for example, I. I do find a big difference, in the density of nature spirits, like how many you come across and their varieties. when I, for example, relate, like, compare Bulgaria to Greece because I don't know for what reason, but maybe it's their mythology and there is this Gregor that is still there. But, like, when I always say to my students, if you want to learn, connecting to.
If you want to come across nature spirits, the easiest is to go to Greece. I really don't know. It's like, so. So abundant of them. They're everywhere. They're satyrs, they are nim. They're nymphs, and it's their centaurs. It's really crazy. And a lot of people, here, for example, go to Samo Trace, which is a Greek island, in northern Greece. And I find this very interesting because it became like, hugely popular among Bulgarians. And, I did the wild camp there last year. And it's a place with very pure waters. So it was such a healing process, you know, to.
I thought, like, when is the last time I went to river from. From where I could drink water, you know. And this is also a huge loss because our. Our waters here are very polluted. And just to see this pure water, like it was healing on itself. But of course, like, just thinking that, that all the blood of the earth is polluted, of course, brings us back to this previous thought that we cannot Be healthy in such environment. Like I had this footage. Like, there was a guy from Australia who came to he wanted to m. Shoot a movie here about Orpheus and what happened to him after Erydici. So he came all the way along from Australia to goat and he was like, you know, oh, let's go to the sacred Hebrews River.
But this river is nowadays so polluted that it was just very, very difficult to find the spot where to shoot the movie. And I was really laughing. I was saying, man, you better invest your money in some ecology. Ecology project here, you know, to remove all these piles of. It's just. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. So actually the areas that are let's say close to cities or in cities, are very polluted because people don't have this consciousness of preservation. So the areas that we speak about, the nice ones, are the abundant ones where there are no humans or very few humans.
Yeah. Laura, how do you see the future, of people and plants and the planet? Oh, I think that we are crossing some, some edge and we are going to place where there is no return, meaning that we have to take a stand. I think like nowadays, like there are many people that are like, I don't know, like, where do I belong? And I think we are going to a moment very soon, really very soon, where people have to. Truth aside, and I think we're going to have like this double reality with people that live in small communities, really integrate, this interconnectedness are part, are part of the web of life. And on the other hand we're going to have these people that are totally disconnected, very sick and fancy. They're going to be one like, the majority will be humans or some robots. So I see it like very polarized. Yeah. This is how I feel that the course of the river is flowing, the polarization.
Okay. And Annelise, what is your take on the future?
[01:27:49] Unknown:
Yeah, I think I see it similar. like we already surpassed 1.5 degrees global warning. I really see, see the landscapes suffering. I fear a lot that most people are vastly under educated and underestimating what, what is to come. And yet if you're asking about the futures of plants and people, I, I, do believe that for the west they will come closer again. I do believe there will be. I see a lot more plan people being called back to that. And I think it's something that maybe you have to believe in. There's only few things you can do facing, climate change and some of the things that you can do is become more of an adult. Create.
I mean, in the ecological sense, maybe in the sense of the work of Bill Potkin and so on. Really growing out of the adolescence that are soc. Society seems to be stuck in, in investing your time into providing education, you know, in, in the various forms. Like not saying that you have to become a teacher, but tell people about it and save lives are regenerate lens. So these are the three things, maybe the three main things that you can do. And I, I think that plants are calling people actively for this work. I think from the other beings, you know, they are the ones that are calling most actively, I think, towards humanity. So I have to believe that there is a future where plants and people are closer again.
And at the same time I also think that we should be prepared for, Yeah, for, for a rough future. For a rough future for all of us.
[01:29:54] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think somewhere we have like the moral duty to remain hopeful and to remain constructive because that's, that's more than just being hopeful, you know, it's. Yeah. and by any means we should be connecting more with the plants. I think this is something we can all agree on. and I think this is a lovely way to close our conversation. We just should all invest our time and invest our energy into just connecting more with the plants, eating them, working with them and in whatever way it is. And, and keep powdering our nose with dandelion pollen. So, dear Wildlings, I hope you enjoyed this episode and I, hope to see you for the next one. Bye. Bye.
A warm thank you for listening. Wildy, are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
