Mari Jerstad has a degree in organic agriculture and herbal medicine. She is a forager, a storyteller, and a herbal medicine practitioner. Her journey with plants started as a child, spending time outside with the plants, just enjoying their beauty and their relation to the sun, which now has brought us here, having a beautiful and warm conversation.
About being inspired by her great aunt, who looked at herbs from a practical point of view as a nurse, but also as something spiritual.
About what triggered Mari to become a herbalist and her studies in Norway and England.
About how chemistry can be beautiful and fun.
About how people in Norway look at herbalism and herbal medicine, and the legal framework around it.
About the Herb Garden Community in Oslo and how this project helps to reconnect people and plants.
About dealing with Norweagian winters as a forager and a herabist and the blessings of different seasons.
About working with refugees and how she got involved in the mobile herbal clinic in Calais.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Mari and her work on the website:
https://marikaape.no/
Or follow her on Instagram @markaape.
The organisation Mari travels to Calais with, is Mobile Herbal Clinic. You can find more information about their work here:
https://mobileherbalclinic.org/
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com. thank you so much.
[00:00:26] Unknown:
Much.
[00:00:31] Unknown:
welcome to Wild, the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium City since 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on. On restoring the ancient link between people and plants. And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Hello, Wildling. Welcome to a new episode of the Wild podcast. And today I'm here with Mari Jerstad. She's a herbalist from Norway.
Welcome, Mari. All the way from Norway. So how did your love for plants get started?
[00:02:29] Unknown:
Well, it started as a child spending time outside and just enjoying their beauty and their relation to the sun and. Yeah. And, my great. My grandmother's sister was, a nurse and a herbalist, so she was, a big inspiration for me also when I was quite young. Yeah.
[00:02:54] Unknown:
Yeah. That seems so nice to have, like, this person in your life that is already working with herbs. Because growing up, I. I remember hearing the stories about my grandmother who was working with plants a lot, but she had. Had died before I was even born. So, I only know her from the stories, and I think it's very inspiring if you have that person still being alive while you're a child.
[00:03:22] Unknown:
Yes, yes, it was. And just, you know, the possibility that, you know, one can work with herbal, medicine that is, it's a path. It's possible to go. And her strength and her humbleness, and it was both something that she loved to do, but also kind ah, of a spiritual thing for her. Oh, so that was. Yeah, it was really special. And
[00:03:53] Unknown:
Yeah, so she was a nurse and a herbalist.
[00:03:57] Unknown:
Yes, she started off as a nurse and she was a nurse in the second World War. And she was quite a lot like, she went through quite a lot of hefty stuff in the, in the Red Cross. yeah, like in Italy and stuff. but, but then she found the herbs later on and really went into that from, you know, a very practical point of view, but also as like, as a relation to other species. and where the respect.
[00:04:28] Unknown:
Yeah, right, right. So, and what triggered you then specifically to also become a herbalist?
[00:04:37] Unknown:
Well, I guess it was when I was in my early teens and I couldn't decide whether I was going to work within medicine or, you know, as a gardener or a farmer. And I was just out walking and. And then suddenly I think it might have been because of some of those plants that were with me there or something. Like I just. Suddenly the possibility kind of opened up and I was like, oh, oh, that's what I'm gonna do. Okay. and then it's just been. That's just been with me since.
[00:05:20] Unknown:
Wow. So because you studied herbalism in England, right?
[00:05:24] Unknown:
That's right.
[00:05:25] Unknown:
Okay, can you tell us a little bit more about it? How was that? How long, how was the duration of the study? Where did you study it?
[00:05:34] Unknown:
yes, well, first of all, I was grateful to my grandmother's sister Maria, because she said, well, you're probably gonna, unlike me, go to university. And if you do that, then there'll be a lot of theory and you won't be so much out there gathering and growing. So start there. So before I went to university, I studied organic gardening farming in, on the west coast of Norway. And I got a very sort of personal relation there with the practical plants. And then going to. I went to Lincoln University, a three year degree program. And I chose it because it was like 500 hours in clinic, which I just wanted to have all that time.
And I'm so grateful to the teachers there and my time there because I mean, after sort of spending a lot of time dreaming about working with herbal medicine and thinking, well, maybe I'll have to go to the other side of the world because clearly there isn't, proper, sort of education in Norway, for just herbal medicine. You had to kind of combine it with all kinds of other stuff. But then suddenly I was on the School and like everyone was into herbs and the teachers had like, spent years and years learning and teaching. And so I felt like really sort of welcomed into this amazing community that I've been dreaming about.
And the approach, at the school was very much learning, of materia medica or, you know, history and philosophy of herbal medicine and a more holistic approach at the same time. Also sort of learning biochemistry and the language of a sort of differential diagnosis and stuff so that you can talk to, you know, other healthcare professionals. so, that, that's been really useful. but I think the most useful thing has just been the time in clinic meeting people, and practicing and the confidence that my teachers gave me, in myself and the resources to sort of keep learning.
[00:07:50] Unknown:
Yeah, I love how your grandmother's sister actually wanted you to learn it from the plants first before you went to herbal school. Right, right.
[00:08:01] Unknown:
Because I think we do learn a lot more directly from the plants. I mean, it's amazing to learn what other people have learned and to learn from books and to look at research and you know, all of this, these things are important. But time that you spend with plants is just gold.
[00:08:19] Unknown:
Yes. I remember when I just graduated as a herbalist, I was so enthusiast about all the chemical compounds in plants that I just, I would walk around and I with, well, you have to know this first. chemistry was always one of my subjects that I hated in school. And then suddenly I found out I was going to have phytochemics. And as I thought, oh no, it's going to be a disaster. But I loved it because it was very, it was not abstract, it was very, you know, I could say, okay, this, this thing in this plant and this is how it works on the human body. so that really helped me to get another view on chemistry. But I remember graduating that I was just walking around and only seeing like tannins or, you know, just seeing, looking at the chemical composition of the plants. And I thought, no, this is just a very narrow minded thing to do. And I remember how I just blindfolded myself and I, I always ask for someone to assist me as a helper, but I would just go blindfolded into a forest just to, you know, to use all of my senses and not just use this brain thing or these very, you know, just not only use the head, but use your whole body to work with the plants. And I think yes, it is important to have all the theory and the chemical composition and how they work on the human body, but you to have the full spectrum of knowledge when it comes to working with plants. At least that's how I feel it.
[00:10:06] Unknown:
It's interesting, those stages that you speak of and, like, how sort of the resistance and then the opening up and then the sort of the sensory value of the sensory knowledge. And for me, like, before I went to university, part of my goal was to be able to talk to plants. I was like, okay, I want to learn to talk to plants. Where can I do that? And probably nowhere in Europe. I probably have to go really far away. And. But then I decided to go to university, and it was like, oh, is this the right thing? It seems a bit kind of. But then. And then I sort of. Then I had this. All this kind of chemistry stuff, and I had, like, you. I had a lot of resistance to it.
And I was like, oh, this is just cutting everything up. you know, and. And can't we, like, just treat everything as living? But then, as I was studying, I was living, in a houseboat. And one day, when I'd been rehearsing or, like, going through this biochemical stuff and trying to learn it so that I could go through some test, and I just looked out of the window, and for a minute I just saw the river as, like, billions of cells just, like, tumbling past. I was like, wow.
[00:11:25] Unknown:
Wow.
[00:11:26] Unknown:
This biochemistry is actually really powerful and beautiful and, like, spinning, like, spinning around, moving, like it's kind of. It's alive. it's. It's a different expression, and it's very easy to lock up with it. But actually it's, It's part of, you know, all this other stuff.
[00:11:47] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what you studied in Norway is international health and athenbotany?
[00:11:56] Unknown:
Yes. When I was finished, with the degree in England, I moved back to Norway and I started to sort of, get into the herbs there. But I was still really curious about the Norwegian tradition because Herbert and in Lincoln was more sort of European. or actually, yeah, more than that as well. But nothing sort of Nordic. but. So I started to sort of talk to people and tried to dig. And then I realized that I want to just study more. So I did a master's in International Community Health, but I did my study in, ethnobotany Norway. And I was walking around speaking to older people who'd grown up, without access to larger society, sort of on. On farms where there's no roads, just, a boat. And, how they've grown up. like, how they relate to their health and also how they relate to their local plants, and what a plant is.
[00:12:59] Unknown:
Yeah, that's fascinating. And how was it, if you look at these academical circles, how are they looking at herbalism? Was it something that was frowned upon or taken seriously or just as an interesting matter of research? What was exactly the way people looked at it?
[00:13:21] Unknown:
Well, in Norway there is a research group, nafkam, which is sort of. It's an institute that's sort of responsible both for telling the Nugent people about what's safe and not safe within natural and traditional medicine, and also researching what is safe and what's effective. and this group also advises who, on the topic. And I think this is quite unique to have a whole research group that's on that, that's sort ah, of employed by the state, to do that. And it's not just herbal medicine. It's. It's all ah, sort of complementary and traditional medicine, systems. But that's quite well established and really, I really appreciate that.
because Norwegian people are generally very trusting of authority and like universities and research. and so it's quite important to have this kind of institute that sort of is there to hold people's hand. And Yeah, but I think there's loads more to do within research. I prefer being outside and being with people, although it's great actually. I love going around talking to old people. But yeah, it's a massive job to be done. women, sort of mapping out and understanding herbal medicine in a way.
[00:14:58] Unknown:
Yes. But it's good that this research is ongoing. I don't think we have anything similar in Belgium to be honest.
[00:15:09] Unknown:
No, there's probably, you know, individual researchers. But it's nice that there's a group. I think lately they've had a lot of focus on herbal medicine within immigrant, groups because there's some really strong herbal traditions and they don't always speak to the doctor about what herbs they take. It's because sometimes, you know, the doctor can be a bit judgmental, or sometimes they feel like, it's not right to say so because they might be judged, you know. So it's really nice to map that out and to show doctors that like, actually maybe you couldn't sort of be a bit more gentle with these people because they have traditions that they want to maintain and that mean something for them.
[00:15:52] Unknown:
Wow. Wow. So, okay, so you studied herbalism in England where it's possible to become a licensed herbalist. This is a thing actually in the UK or not.
[00:16:09] Unknown:
It's more like a hole in the regulation system I think. I don't think that you have to have a degree to practice herbal medicine in England.
[00:16:17] Unknown:
Right, okay.
[00:16:19] Unknown:
all right, you can practice which is great.
[00:16:22] Unknown:
Yes. Because that is pretty much impossible in Belgium. It's like total illegal to do that. so just because you have one on one consultations. Right. And you do this in Norway.
[00:16:36] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:16:36] Unknown:
And what is the legal framework there when it comes to doing that?
[00:16:40] Unknown:
Great question. So there's a lot of the same regulation in Norway way as in the eu. Although we're not part of the eu. We're part of the eu. So there's a lot of the same, things like so I can I can practice one on one. I can't prescribe so much tinctures, which is, which is fine. I can prescribe a little bit of tinctures but it has to be very small and they can't be mixed. I started to use a lot of glycerites and other menstruums that were like other forms of extracts that.
[00:17:16] Unknown:
Okay. So it's just about the alcohol content.
[00:17:19] Unknown:
That's been one big thing. But there was also a whole list of plants that have not been allowed to sell.
[00:17:26] Unknown:
We have the same in Belgium and it's a really long list in Belgium.
[00:17:30] Unknown:
Right. And it's so frustrating that list because it was like loads of them are really safe. but there's been research on them that they're effective in medicine. So then they're not allowed. And yeah, all kinds of plot. I mean you probably know all about this but the list was taken out of the regulatory system like it was, that was taken out. and so I emailed them and I was like, okay, does this mean that we can sell these plants or what does it mean that you've taken away this regulation? And then the reply was just that it's pretty much the same as before.
so there hasn't been any big changes. And this really confused me. So I think basically what I'm doing is practicing in a gray zone. And of course there are, you know, some really poisonous plants that I would never. Yes, obviously that's, that would be terrible. But but most of them are allowed. And I see there are many people who sell them, not as herbalists but as just sort of distributors. but but still, it is within some form of grace gray zone. So what I prefer to do is, when I have clients who are happy to, to gather because they know, to grow because they know, or who are happy to learn, so I can teach them, what's safe to pick and who make their own medicine, both because, it's really empowering. And then that will be a lasting piece of knowledge that they can have and they can share. Yes, because, you know, it's. It's safer for me, as a herbalist. So there's like a double benefit when I manage that. But of course, some people don't have the energy. You know, if they're very unwell, then that might not be an option.
[00:19:22] Unknown:
so, yeah, it's interesting to hear you talking about this, because what totally baffles me is how different this list of forbidden plants is in every European country. So I mainly work in Belgium, but sometimes I work in the Netherlands. And there the list is just a lot shorter, which is an interesting. You know, we're so close to one another. It's just a crazy thing, in my opinion. But yeah.
[00:19:50] Unknown:
Yeah, it's. It's really strange. And I was so surprised. Like almost the same time when this list got taken away, we all the people practicing natural and traditional medicine had to start paying that, which is 25% of the income. So, so we're paying much more to the state, but then suddenly we're allowed to sell more. So, yeah, I. And I. I don't understand.
[00:20:19] Unknown:
I. I just think somehow herbalists are like a group of people that governments don't really know how to deal with.
[00:20:26] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:20:27] Unknown:
At some point, you know, it's. Yeah, it's true.
[00:20:31] Unknown:
It's true. And, this is why it's great that there's more research. Because I think there's just a lot of lacking knowledge in, like, who we are, what we do, we know what you know, and that kind of stuff. So we need, We need to have knowledge. And. And I think, like, however much regulations there are, there's always going to be some people who practice on some level. so it's just about keeping it safe. And I think maybe, that's gone a bit the wrong way. Because if you make it illegal, then that's not something that's safe.
[00:21:08] Unknown:
Exactly. Yes.
[00:21:10] Unknown:
Like recognize the education systems that are in place.
[00:21:15] Unknown:
Yeah. No matter how much I love the position of being the rebel and the pioneer, it would be great just to have a little bit more legal framework on this. So that it's more accessible to a lot more people.
[00:21:30] Unknown:
Exactly. It's about accessibility. And that's, that's why it's sort of frustrating because we, we can continue like being this, person who's in the gray zone or who's just trying to carry on some cultural heritage and, and keep this medical tradition alive. But, it's limited how much, how many people you can reach. And especially within areas where her medicine is really effective. It. Then it's. Yeah, it's a shame.
[00:22:01] Unknown:
Yeah. So you are also involved in a, community, herb garden. Can you tell us a little bit more about it?
[00:22:09] Unknown:
Yes. So it's in the middle of Oslo. and it's kind of been changing a lot. It came first in 2016, like the garden. And there was a group called Herbinists who were there for a while. And then I came and I said, oh, can I join in with you guys? And they were like, well, actually we're going to move on because we want to start selling, some, some herbs so you can just take over. So I was like, oh, right, okay.
[00:22:39] Unknown:
Wow. You came exactly at the right moment.
[00:22:43] Unknown:
But luckily with, Francesca, an Italian woman. And so we, we did it together and we've been so basically once a week, loads of people come through the past couple of years. and then we've been just giving them stuff to do and like with growing, harvesting, making stuff, like different, different things, every Wednesday. And then everyone sort of sits down and has a meal, like a really nice meal from the garden. so that's been really nice. Then there's been a lot of changes because it's in the middle of Oslo now. They took away quite a big chunk because they need to build a road. Oh. and then, yeah, the funding fell off and then like there's a new city because there's a, there's an employed city gardener there. And so it's just really lovely.
[00:23:30] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:23:31] Unknown:
Who's been holding the place, going and watering when we're not there and stuff. but now there's a new city farmer, so there's like a little bit of change. But I think this season also is going to be great.
[00:23:43] Unknown:
So that's a great project to reconnect people and plants and also to Yeah, to reconnect people with otter, I think.
[00:23:51] Unknown:
Yes, I think it's been really. Yeah, it's just been really lovely to see all these people get their hands dirty and, and you know, just really get in there with the plants. And when you're working it's sort of more comfortable to be with people and be quiet and then talk when you want to. And it's a much, much more natural way to socially interact. And I think Norway people can often experience is quite cold like that. Like people don't always. They're very comfortable about like not talking to anyone else, and not necessarily super friendly to strangers. But in this setting it's very easy to sort of get to know people and get new friends and start hanging out with them other places.
So that's been a really great social aspect as well as. Yeah. Although of course it's in the middle of the town so there's a lot of pollution. But still the food that people eat there has been is good I think for people to experience like growing and eating your own your own food. and it's been really nice to offer like free workshops. So that really low threshold. Now we also offering some paid for workshops which is like oh, a little bit bad. it sort of excludes some people but you know you still have to earn a bit of money so. But I'm trying to keep the free ones going as well so that everyone like the community can still keep coming independently of income or life situation.
[00:25:23] Unknown:
Yeah, that's something else I wanted to ask you. So you're situated in the Oslo area. Is there a lot of green space in that area or is it very urbanized? I have no idea.
[00:25:38] Unknown:
Yeah, Oslo is quite good as a capital. it's relatively small. I mean Norway as a whole has five and a half million people. So Oslo, yeah is like It's also on the fjord so it's quite easy to jump on a boat and go out to an island. A lot of the islands close to the city, you can't pick anything which is nice that they're protected, people can enjoy them. but then if you go further out you can, you can gather and also there's forests all around so you can go in in all different areas of the forest. So it's very quick to get to the forest from, from anywhere in Oslo. So that's, that's one of the reason I can, I can manage living there because yeah, it's it's quite a green ah, place. Yeah.
[00:26:26] Unknown:
Wow. I love that everyone should have like a forest nearby or just green space or you know. Yes. In some form or another. Yes. Wow. Yeah. So I've read on your I think it was on your Instagram page that when you do one on one consultations with people, you like to take them for a walk outdoors. Do you notice a difference in just doing this as an indoors thing or going out for a walk with people?
[00:26:58] Unknown:
I love going out for walks. I mean, it's just, it's just so great to get out, both for me and for them. so I really, I really prefer that. But it's also, I mean, it's sort of, it can be a little bit less focused, which sort of gives a little bit of light. and you sort of integrate, you integrate the weather and, and, you know, whatever wild animals you might come across or, you know, you're sort of much more in a place than, Than just sort of in clinic. and it's quite different who comes because, I have a lot of people who have, issues with energy levels. So then that often isn't the case. But, but when, but when they do come, then that's really nice. of course, you know, I have to offer, being able to sit down, in clinic as well. Yeah.
But I mean, it's also very seasonal because in Norway a lot of the year you have ice all around the ground and I wouldn't like.
[00:28:01] Unknown:
Right.
[00:28:02] Unknown:
And they just like fall over.
[00:28:03] Unknown:
Right.
[00:28:04] Unknown:
So luckily that hasn't happened. but yeah, it's. I think people just don't usually book in the winter walks so much.
[00:28:12] Unknown:
All right. Yes. So how do you deal with the Norwegian winters, as a herbalist? Because I think the time frame in which you can pick plants or make preparations is a lot smaller than here in Belgium. And I was wondering if, like, what I was personally wondering was maybe they work more with evergreen plants like spruce or. I don't know, is it.
[00:28:39] Unknown:
Good question. Well, I, I mean, to be honest, I wonder how you manage because you're gonna have to be going out like all year round, whereas I get this nice break, you know, recharge and sort of be in my winter mode. And then of course, when spring comes, it gets very busy and all of these plants come at once. And so I do work with, with, spruce and, pine and. But often, you know, they're great to harvest in the spring.
[00:29:10] Unknown:
yes. When you have the new fresh green tops. Yes.
[00:29:14] Unknown:
I mean, it's tasty. you can actually, you can have a little bit throughout the year as well. but, but, Yeah, off there's a lot of spring stuff, summer and then autumn and then the winter, you know, then there's just.
[00:29:29] Unknown:
Hibernation in winter mostly.
[00:29:32] Unknown:
There are some mushrooms that still stick around for a while after the plants have died back. but yeah, it's less, less, yeah. Which I, I really appreciate because I, I need that. I think also, you know, in the summer the light becomes much longer. Because I live in Oslo, I don't have the midnight sun. but still the daylight, like these days it gets dark around 10 in the evening. and then it's light already when I wake up. So that also gives extra energy. Whereas in the winter it's dark when you go out. and if you're working inside, you're not going to see any lights until you sort of go home and still dark.
And so it's more kind of restful. So you have the clarity of the cold, you have the stars. it's a, ah, different kind of work.
[00:30:30] Unknown:
So we have, yeah, we have winters here too in Belgium, but they are not as long lasting, not as intense I think. it's rarely covered in snow here. it's rarely freezing for several days or several nights in a row. So yeah, we can still harvest. Of course it's not the same as in summer or in spring or in autumn, but we can still harvest some roots in the winter. so yeah, but I also, I have to say, I also like this cycle of the seasons. So that you have when there is a lot of light and you feel very energetic, that there is a lot of work to be done. And then in the winter it's darker, less hours of light and then you can sort of go into hibernation modus.
and you know, still some things need to be done, but it's different. It's not that ultimate activity that is there in the summer.
[00:31:27] Unknown:
Right. And it's so nice when the spring comes and you haven't seen these plants, you know, the whole winter and then it's this kind of joy of reconnecting and be like yay.
[00:31:37] Unknown:
Exactly, exactly.
[00:31:40] Unknown:
Summer and oh, so fantastic. And then when the autumn comes it's like, oh no, the plantains are already gone. Oh, you know, it's
[00:31:50] Unknown:
Yes. And this is the crazy thing that I notice with myself. when it's winter time and it's like gone, the birds song is gone, the plants are gone. And I actually don't realize how much I'm missing it until I hear the birds again and until I see the plants coming up again. And then I can be moved to tears just to See them or hear them again. It's so crazy because it happens every year again and again and again.
[00:32:19] Unknown:
It's. Yeah, it's, it's. But it's like this is part of the blessing of the seasons is that, you know, we often don't know what we got or how lucky we are until it's taken away. And then it's, oh, wow, it's so great to have these species in this place. You know, we're so lucky to have them.
[00:32:41] Unknown:
yes. It makes spring so much better than it already is. If we wouldn't have winter. Yes. I think spring would be a little bit bleaker than it is now.
[00:32:53] Unknown:
Yes. And I wouldn't have energy to be running around harvesting if I hadn't had rested on properly.
[00:33:00] Unknown:
Yes. So, if I think geographically, like, I, know this is, of course it's generalization. I want to clear that out. But like, in France, they usually make a lot if, if they work with herbs, they like to, make sweet preparations like, sweets or liquors, or, And I know, the Anglo Saxon world likes to make tinctures. And is there, like, what kind of herbal preparations are used in Norway? or are there some typical Nordic things that you don't see happening a lot in the rest of the world?
[00:33:43] Unknown:
Well, one thing, that's historically been really big. It's not so big anymore. but I still hear people, some people talk about it in relation to grandparents and so on, is like a herbal porridge, which is like, for external use that you put on a wound and they use this word porridge, and it's quite a word, wide term. I mean, ah, Norwegians, you know, before the oil, were a really poor country. Like really just farmers and farmers that had. Were struggling to get by. So porridge was like a kind of quite a big part of life in general, I think. and, there were many different types of porridge and. And then they also made porridge with plants and, and use that, to put on, different, skin conditions or different complaints. Yeah.
[00:34:41] Unknown:
Wow. But so, like, what was the base of the porridge?
[00:34:45] Unknown:
Yeah, so for a long time I thought it was sort of an oat porridge with a bit of herbs in it. I realize now that actually it is like a pure herbal. It's kind of boiled herbs.
[00:34:57] Unknown:
All right.
[00:34:58] Unknown:
You just put on.
[00:35:01] Unknown:
Okay, okay. Yes. If I look at the tradition here in Belgium and in Germany, I know a lot of people, no, the poultice is made of, cabbage leaves. Which sometimes they're just, crushed with a rolling pin, but sometimes they are steamed lightly and then put on like a wound. but really this idea of a herbal porridge is totally new to me.
[00:35:30] Unknown:
Yeah, I must say I haven't practiced it so much. but it's, definitely something I haven't seen anywhere else. yes. And it's referred to in the old literature, so.
[00:35:40] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:35:40] Unknown:
Yeah, I've heard people talk about their grandparents and stuff using herbal porridges. Otherwise, historically, also herbs were used a lot to taste different. Like many different types of beers. And then there's this. This, very, very strong tradition with juniper, boiled juniper that has like, a special name which they use to clean all kinds of wounds, and. And clean the hair and. And they use this like it's a, ah, decoction, basically, which I know is very, very common and is still something that people make. but not so much, not so much. I mean, people in Norway are generally not tea people. It's mostly coffee, which also obviously is a plant.
yes, but, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:38] Unknown:
What always fascinates me is how, like, I know in Ethiopia they add some spices and some herbs to the coffee, but in Belgium, this is absolutely not done. is it a thing that happens in Norway?
[00:36:52] Unknown:
No, not so much. Not so much.
[00:36:55] Unknown:
It's crazy how much black tea we have that. That has herbs added to it, but not a coffee.
[00:37:02] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, but. But then there are like coffee replacements with dandelion and stuff, but that's not particularly Norwegian, but that is. Yeah, I guess it's. Come here.
[00:37:15] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. So, you also, were involved in the mobile herbal clinic in Calais, or maybe you still are. All right, please tell me all about it.
[00:37:31] Unknown:
Yeah, well, I guess, you know, the situation, with refugees is kind of pretty. Pretty dire. And it's. It's not so great to look at the news and just be like, oh, ah, it's so bad. I can't do anything about it. And going to Calais, for me, like, it's not. I haven't been there that many times. I mean, I'm. And I'm really grateful for the herbalists, the amazing herbalists who keep this running. I've just come in a little bit here and there, and it's just been a good feeling of coming in and just standing there with these people and just being like, I care, you know, and not. You know, it's because they come. They come from often really harsh conditions and. And then they go to the uk and they often just get sent back, you know, so that like the.
It's not as if we can come and save them in any way but but just being there and just being like, okay, we're people too. and we're sorry that you're going through this and that our government has put you, you know, put you in this position or like treating you this way. That's that's meaningful. And often people have a sort of relation to herbal medicine and can, can relate to that. Not everyone, and you know, not everyone wants it, which is cool. But Yeah, there's I guess it was. Been a little bit overwhelmed the first time. It was a little bit overwhelming for me because I'd never really been in that kind of situation. But yeah, it's really good. It's interesting to see how herbs can work also in a first aid situation because you hear so much about.
Yeah, it takes time for them to work. They're not like pills. You can't, you know, just, you know. And I'm really grateful for A and E. And in Calais we often end up driving people to or referring to hospitals and, and you know, definitely very clear like what we can and cannot do. And a big part of the job there is just telling people where they can access different things. and in some situations they can't access stuff and it's just kind of rubbish because you know, if there's an outbreak of scabies and people can't even shower, then it's a bit hard.
[00:39:59] Unknown:
It's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible that we still treat people, human beings this way in the 21st century.
[00:40:07] Unknown:
Right. And you know, now the UK is going to be sending like people to Rwanda like this. It's just so depressing. It's like, like But then, but then just going there and turning up feels like, okay, I'm, I'm part of the world. I'm not making a massive difference, but at least I'm part of the world. And the Norwegian, the state is really, really strict as well. So it's been one of the strictest states in Europe for like sending people back and stuff. So it feels nice because there are ah, herbalists from different places in Europe from like mostly England and Scotland, but also Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France, different places and also doctors who come sometimes as well. so that's really nice to kind of to meet around that and to see like other herbalists who care and work together. So. Yeah.
[00:41:11] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And what herbs are most used in that context?
[00:41:17] Unknown:
Well, there's a lot. Well when I've been there at least there have been a lot of coughs and colds and that kind of stuff. And we use just glycerides because Several Muslims and yeah. We just. Yeah. Easier to not have alcohol. and then there's been skin conditions so like wound herbs and Yeah. Fungal infection kind of. So it's quite symptomatic which it has to be when it's just acute. and then we've been giving like in some situations of sleep related or Some. Sometimes people have asked for like can I have help for my mental health? Like it's rarer that people ask for that but they do. Sometimes it's nice to have something to give them. And then there's digestive, like common digestive complaints. and then we can't really do that much for scabies. We have like some symptomatic relief and we're like just go, please go to the go and get some pills for that because like with these conditions we can't really fix it with herbs.
[00:42:27] Unknown:
Yes. And it's really contagious.
[00:42:29] Unknown:
So yeah, yeah it's better, it's better if they take the pills for that.
[00:42:36] Unknown:
And so you make glycerides. So like for instance if someone has mental health problems what are some of the herbs that you think about that could help them?
[00:42:46] Unknown:
Yeah, well, so there's a farm in England who. That makes a lot of the herbs for Calais and it's quite like big quantities but when they've been there it's between like 3 or 400 and like 7 or 800 people during a week that come through. and there's usually about four people there practicing. So I don't. I haven't been making It's great. There's a team who are in the UK and growing stuff and then people contribute with what's needed there. But yeah mental health. It's. Yeah. So it's really interesting picking out the plants that can be relevant because you have to think about it needs to be safe for low and high blood pressure. It needs to be safe for like all kinds of conditions that you know like that might, that person might have. So we have to have very safe but also very effective plants because it needs to be effective in this kind of condition. So they have to really feel the difference. You know, we really want it to work for them.
I don't remember all the herbs that are in the, in that mix. I do believe that, lemon balm is one of them.
[00:44:02] Unknown:
I was thinking about that. Yes.
[00:44:04] Unknown:
Yeah, it's good. It's a, lovely, lovely plan, isn't it?
[00:44:08] Unknown:
Yes. And of course I hear what you're saying. It has to be a very broadly, approachable herb because you don't know the background of the people, whether they have high blood pressure or any other issues. And it has to be very safe.
[00:44:27] Unknown:
Yes. And we don't have time to sit, you know, for an hour and talk with people. We can ask some questions, but because there's just hundreds of people coming through, we have to just use very safe plants. Yeah.
[00:44:39] Unknown:
M. Wow. I think it's beautiful that even in those conditions, some people are helping out with herbs to help other people. And I remember myself, it was. I will never forget this moment. I was visiting a friend in the UK and I had to cross the French UK border. And so this was actually in Calais. And this was, in a bus, me and my two kids. And, we were riding on a bridge. And I could see the barbed wire from the bridge. And if you look down you could just see all the trucks driving. And that's the moment I realized, whoa, some people are this desperate that they are trying to jump off a bridge, to fall on a truck to enter the uk.
And I thought, and I can just freely travel between those two countries because I'm born in Belgium, but it's just purely a coincidence. You know, I could have been born somewhere completely else in the world. And it just, I. It struck me like lightning.
[00:45:51] Unknown:
yeah, it's quite shocking being there and those barbed wires and it's just, there's a lot of police violence and you know, where they just take away the camps and they like when I was once, they'd built this mosque out of rubbish and the police just came and like, broke it completely. And like, just like every, like everything all the time. They're moving so much around that often they like, they hang their toothbrushes up in the tree so that, you know, when the police come and ruin the tents, at least they've got a toothbrush. Oh, you know, it's just like.
[00:46:31] Unknown:
Oh dear.
[00:46:32] Unknown:
Completely. and it's so. It's so strange, as you say, because it's so, you know, having been born in like, in these countries that often, Like Norway produces a lot of weapons, and sends to areas of conflict. And, And these people come from those areas and. And then it's no.
[00:46:59] Unknown:
Yeah. So one other question I have for you, Mari. It's a question that I usually ask to my, podcast guests is. Well, we've been talking about herbs, about herbal traditions. we've also criticized the system a little bit, I think. So did you ever hear that you were very lucky to live in this, time because in previous times you would have been burned alive?
[00:47:33] Unknown:
Yeah, people sometimes say that jokingly. Yeah, I don't know what I feel about that. Partly because in Norway, anyway, many of the women who were burned, okay, they were much more midwives than herbalists. Although many use herbs. There were also a lot of women who weren't herbalists. And, And, like, when people like to call me like a witch, which I think is fine. I don't really identify as a witch, and some people do, and that's also totally fine. but, it's been. It's been used very negatively. and I don't think, like. I don't think people who practiced herbs back in the day necessarily identified as a witch. In Norwegian, there's the sort of expression like trollschelling, which means, like troll woman, or sort of troll also means, like troldom. It means magic.
[00:48:51] Unknown:
Ah.
[00:48:52] Unknown:
So, So that, like a wise woman or trollscharing would have been more sort of the terms that one used. Yeah, but, yeah, I. I haven't delved so deeply in the history of, of women and men who were burnt in Norway. Also, a lot of men were burnt in Sami regions because in the, indigenous group of people in the Sami culture, often it's been men who practice, magic.
[00:49:27] Unknown:
Right.
[00:49:29] Unknown:
Although women, I think, in that tradition, actually, generally people have a lot. Know a lot about plants, in those traditions and have done. Yeah.
[00:49:39] Unknown:
Wow, this was a really interesting conversation. Just one last question. What do you think could still happen in the future to. How to say, to stimulate more connection between plants and people? What would be great if it would already be happening in the world?
[00:50:12] Unknown:
I think, it would be great if we took a moment, another, moment with other species. plants, I think, trees, to, observe them, and to learn from them, because they're all around us all the time. And often we have a relation with them that either we should get rid of them or we should use them. and if we have that kind of relation with other people, then, you know, it's not great to sort of feel like I should get rid of like someone or I should use them. Right. And I don't think that's a useful thing for other species. And I think that we, we're quite new as a species and we got quite a lot to learn from some of these, species that have been around a lot longer than us and who know a lot more about, about sticking around for a long time.
And I think if we, if we spend more time, without sort of music in our ears and running past through just like stopping and being and listening and, and spend like long time like just sitting and staring and, and being open with our senses and, and both observing ourselves and our surroundings. I think that, that would be really useful. as well as just recognizing that maybe we aren't always the most intelligent, you know, squishy, but without saying anything bad about us. Just, you know, just sort of. Let's, let's learn. Let's learn. Let's spend more time and learn. Because we seem to have seemed often feel like we don't have so much time. Right.
But it's funny how when you go out and you sit out and you're just there, time can expand and, and you just, often you just feel so much better. You know, there's this amazing generosity with a lot of species, when you take the time to listen to them.
[00:52:31] Unknown:
Yeah, I love that. I'm drinking your words. Really. I love it. I love it. Okay, well, thank you so much, Mari for this wonderful conversation. Thank you, Wildie, for listening again to this episode. I hope to see you back for the next one. And in the meantime, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye Bye. Yes, and for those who want to take a look around at Mari's website, her website is maricarpe. I will spell that out for you. M A R I K A A P E dot N O. That's for Norway. And you can also follow her on, Instagram. A warm thank you for listening.
Wilde. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com. thank you so much.
[00:00:26] Unknown:
Much.
[00:00:31] Unknown:
welcome to Wild, the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium City since 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on. On restoring the ancient link between people and plants. And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Hello, Wildling. Welcome to a new episode of the Wild podcast. And today I'm here with Mari Jerstad. She's a herbalist from Norway.
Welcome, Mari. All the way from Norway. So how did your love for plants get started?
[00:02:29] Unknown:
Well, it started as a child spending time outside and just enjoying their beauty and their relation to the sun and. Yeah. And, my great. My grandmother's sister was, a nurse and a herbalist, so she was, a big inspiration for me also when I was quite young. Yeah.
[00:02:54] Unknown:
Yeah. That seems so nice to have, like, this person in your life that is already working with herbs. Because growing up, I. I remember hearing the stories about my grandmother who was working with plants a lot, but she had. Had died before I was even born. So, I only know her from the stories, and I think it's very inspiring if you have that person still being alive while you're a child.
[00:03:22] Unknown:
Yes, yes, it was. And just, you know, the possibility that, you know, one can work with herbal, medicine that is, it's a path. It's possible to go. And her strength and her humbleness, and it was both something that she loved to do, but also kind ah, of a spiritual thing for her. Oh, so that was. Yeah, it was really special. And
[00:03:53] Unknown:
Yeah, so she was a nurse and a herbalist.
[00:03:57] Unknown:
Yes, she started off as a nurse and she was a nurse in the second World War. And she was quite a lot like, she went through quite a lot of hefty stuff in the, in the Red Cross. yeah, like in Italy and stuff. but, but then she found the herbs later on and really went into that from, you know, a very practical point of view, but also as like, as a relation to other species. and where the respect.
[00:04:28] Unknown:
Yeah, right, right. So, and what triggered you then specifically to also become a herbalist?
[00:04:37] Unknown:
Well, I guess it was when I was in my early teens and I couldn't decide whether I was going to work within medicine or, you know, as a gardener or a farmer. And I was just out walking and. And then suddenly I think it might have been because of some of those plants that were with me there or something. Like I just. Suddenly the possibility kind of opened up and I was like, oh, oh, that's what I'm gonna do. Okay. and then it's just been. That's just been with me since.
[00:05:20] Unknown:
Wow. So because you studied herbalism in England, right?
[00:05:24] Unknown:
That's right.
[00:05:25] Unknown:
Okay, can you tell us a little bit more about it? How was that? How long, how was the duration of the study? Where did you study it?
[00:05:34] Unknown:
yes, well, first of all, I was grateful to my grandmother's sister Maria, because she said, well, you're probably gonna, unlike me, go to university. And if you do that, then there'll be a lot of theory and you won't be so much out there gathering and growing. So start there. So before I went to university, I studied organic gardening farming in, on the west coast of Norway. And I got a very sort of personal relation there with the practical plants. And then going to. I went to Lincoln University, a three year degree program. And I chose it because it was like 500 hours in clinic, which I just wanted to have all that time.
And I'm so grateful to the teachers there and my time there because I mean, after sort of spending a lot of time dreaming about working with herbal medicine and thinking, well, maybe I'll have to go to the other side of the world because clearly there isn't, proper, sort of education in Norway, for just herbal medicine. You had to kind of combine it with all kinds of other stuff. But then suddenly I was on the School and like everyone was into herbs and the teachers had like, spent years and years learning and teaching. And so I felt like really sort of welcomed into this amazing community that I've been dreaming about.
And the approach, at the school was very much learning, of materia medica or, you know, history and philosophy of herbal medicine and a more holistic approach at the same time. Also sort of learning biochemistry and the language of a sort of differential diagnosis and stuff so that you can talk to, you know, other healthcare professionals. so, that, that's been really useful. but I think the most useful thing has just been the time in clinic meeting people, and practicing and the confidence that my teachers gave me, in myself and the resources to sort of keep learning.
[00:07:50] Unknown:
Yeah, I love how your grandmother's sister actually wanted you to learn it from the plants first before you went to herbal school. Right, right.
[00:08:01] Unknown:
Because I think we do learn a lot more directly from the plants. I mean, it's amazing to learn what other people have learned and to learn from books and to look at research and you know, all of this, these things are important. But time that you spend with plants is just gold.
[00:08:19] Unknown:
Yes. I remember when I just graduated as a herbalist, I was so enthusiast about all the chemical compounds in plants that I just, I would walk around and I with, well, you have to know this first. chemistry was always one of my subjects that I hated in school. And then suddenly I found out I was going to have phytochemics. And as I thought, oh no, it's going to be a disaster. But I loved it because it was very, it was not abstract, it was very, you know, I could say, okay, this, this thing in this plant and this is how it works on the human body. so that really helped me to get another view on chemistry. But I remember graduating that I was just walking around and only seeing like tannins or, you know, just seeing, looking at the chemical composition of the plants. And I thought, no, this is just a very narrow minded thing to do. And I remember how I just blindfolded myself and I, I always ask for someone to assist me as a helper, but I would just go blindfolded into a forest just to, you know, to use all of my senses and not just use this brain thing or these very, you know, just not only use the head, but use your whole body to work with the plants. And I think yes, it is important to have all the theory and the chemical composition and how they work on the human body, but you to have the full spectrum of knowledge when it comes to working with plants. At least that's how I feel it.
[00:10:06] Unknown:
It's interesting, those stages that you speak of and, like, how sort of the resistance and then the opening up and then the sort of the sensory value of the sensory knowledge. And for me, like, before I went to university, part of my goal was to be able to talk to plants. I was like, okay, I want to learn to talk to plants. Where can I do that? And probably nowhere in Europe. I probably have to go really far away. And. But then I decided to go to university, and it was like, oh, is this the right thing? It seems a bit kind of. But then. And then I sort of. Then I had this. All this kind of chemistry stuff, and I had, like, you. I had a lot of resistance to it.
And I was like, oh, this is just cutting everything up. you know, and. And can't we, like, just treat everything as living? But then, as I was studying, I was living, in a houseboat. And one day, when I'd been rehearsing or, like, going through this biochemical stuff and trying to learn it so that I could go through some test, and I just looked out of the window, and for a minute I just saw the river as, like, billions of cells just, like, tumbling past. I was like, wow.
[00:11:25] Unknown:
Wow.
[00:11:26] Unknown:
This biochemistry is actually really powerful and beautiful and, like, spinning, like, spinning around, moving, like it's kind of. It's alive. it's. It's a different expression, and it's very easy to lock up with it. But actually it's, It's part of, you know, all this other stuff.
[00:11:47] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what you studied in Norway is international health and athenbotany?
[00:11:56] Unknown:
Yes. When I was finished, with the degree in England, I moved back to Norway and I started to sort of, get into the herbs there. But I was still really curious about the Norwegian tradition because Herbert and in Lincoln was more sort of European. or actually, yeah, more than that as well. But nothing sort of Nordic. but. So I started to sort of talk to people and tried to dig. And then I realized that I want to just study more. So I did a master's in International Community Health, but I did my study in, ethnobotany Norway. And I was walking around speaking to older people who'd grown up, without access to larger society, sort of on. On farms where there's no roads, just, a boat. And, how they've grown up. like, how they relate to their health and also how they relate to their local plants, and what a plant is.
[00:12:59] Unknown:
Yeah, that's fascinating. And how was it, if you look at these academical circles, how are they looking at herbalism? Was it something that was frowned upon or taken seriously or just as an interesting matter of research? What was exactly the way people looked at it?
[00:13:21] Unknown:
Well, in Norway there is a research group, nafkam, which is sort of. It's an institute that's sort of responsible both for telling the Nugent people about what's safe and not safe within natural and traditional medicine, and also researching what is safe and what's effective. and this group also advises who, on the topic. And I think this is quite unique to have a whole research group that's on that, that's sort ah, of employed by the state, to do that. And it's not just herbal medicine. It's. It's all ah, sort of complementary and traditional medicine, systems. But that's quite well established and really, I really appreciate that.
because Norwegian people are generally very trusting of authority and like universities and research. and so it's quite important to have this kind of institute that sort of is there to hold people's hand. And Yeah, but I think there's loads more to do within research. I prefer being outside and being with people, although it's great actually. I love going around talking to old people. But yeah, it's a massive job to be done. women, sort of mapping out and understanding herbal medicine in a way.
[00:14:58] Unknown:
Yes. But it's good that this research is ongoing. I don't think we have anything similar in Belgium to be honest.
[00:15:09] Unknown:
No, there's probably, you know, individual researchers. But it's nice that there's a group. I think lately they've had a lot of focus on herbal medicine within immigrant, groups because there's some really strong herbal traditions and they don't always speak to the doctor about what herbs they take. It's because sometimes, you know, the doctor can be a bit judgmental, or sometimes they feel like, it's not right to say so because they might be judged, you know. So it's really nice to map that out and to show doctors that like, actually maybe you couldn't sort of be a bit more gentle with these people because they have traditions that they want to maintain and that mean something for them.
[00:15:52] Unknown:
Wow. Wow. So, okay, so you studied herbalism in England where it's possible to become a licensed herbalist. This is a thing actually in the UK or not.
[00:16:09] Unknown:
It's more like a hole in the regulation system I think. I don't think that you have to have a degree to practice herbal medicine in England.
[00:16:17] Unknown:
Right, okay.
[00:16:19] Unknown:
all right, you can practice which is great.
[00:16:22] Unknown:
Yes. Because that is pretty much impossible in Belgium. It's like total illegal to do that. so just because you have one on one consultations. Right. And you do this in Norway.
[00:16:36] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:16:36] Unknown:
And what is the legal framework there when it comes to doing that?
[00:16:40] Unknown:
Great question. So there's a lot of the same regulation in Norway way as in the eu. Although we're not part of the eu. We're part of the eu. So there's a lot of the same, things like so I can I can practice one on one. I can't prescribe so much tinctures, which is, which is fine. I can prescribe a little bit of tinctures but it has to be very small and they can't be mixed. I started to use a lot of glycerites and other menstruums that were like other forms of extracts that.
[00:17:16] Unknown:
Okay. So it's just about the alcohol content.
[00:17:19] Unknown:
That's been one big thing. But there was also a whole list of plants that have not been allowed to sell.
[00:17:26] Unknown:
We have the same in Belgium and it's a really long list in Belgium.
[00:17:30] Unknown:
Right. And it's so frustrating that list because it was like loads of them are really safe. but there's been research on them that they're effective in medicine. So then they're not allowed. And yeah, all kinds of plot. I mean you probably know all about this but the list was taken out of the regulatory system like it was, that was taken out. and so I emailed them and I was like, okay, does this mean that we can sell these plants or what does it mean that you've taken away this regulation? And then the reply was just that it's pretty much the same as before.
so there hasn't been any big changes. And this really confused me. So I think basically what I'm doing is practicing in a gray zone. And of course there are, you know, some really poisonous plants that I would never. Yes, obviously that's, that would be terrible. But but most of them are allowed. And I see there are many people who sell them, not as herbalists but as just sort of distributors. but but still, it is within some form of grace gray zone. So what I prefer to do is, when I have clients who are happy to, to gather because they know, to grow because they know, or who are happy to learn, so I can teach them, what's safe to pick and who make their own medicine, both because, it's really empowering. And then that will be a lasting piece of knowledge that they can have and they can share. Yes, because, you know, it's. It's safer for me, as a herbalist. So there's like a double benefit when I manage that. But of course, some people don't have the energy. You know, if they're very unwell, then that might not be an option.
[00:19:22] Unknown:
so, yeah, it's interesting to hear you talking about this, because what totally baffles me is how different this list of forbidden plants is in every European country. So I mainly work in Belgium, but sometimes I work in the Netherlands. And there the list is just a lot shorter, which is an interesting. You know, we're so close to one another. It's just a crazy thing, in my opinion. But yeah.
[00:19:50] Unknown:
Yeah, it's. It's really strange. And I was so surprised. Like almost the same time when this list got taken away, we all the people practicing natural and traditional medicine had to start paying that, which is 25% of the income. So, so we're paying much more to the state, but then suddenly we're allowed to sell more. So, yeah, I. And I. I don't understand.
[00:20:19] Unknown:
I. I just think somehow herbalists are like a group of people that governments don't really know how to deal with.
[00:20:26] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:20:27] Unknown:
At some point, you know, it's. Yeah, it's true.
[00:20:31] Unknown:
It's true. And, this is why it's great that there's more research. Because I think there's just a lot of lacking knowledge in, like, who we are, what we do, we know what you know, and that kind of stuff. So we need, We need to have knowledge. And. And I think, like, however much regulations there are, there's always going to be some people who practice on some level. so it's just about keeping it safe. And I think maybe, that's gone a bit the wrong way. Because if you make it illegal, then that's not something that's safe.
[00:21:08] Unknown:
Exactly. Yes.
[00:21:10] Unknown:
Like recognize the education systems that are in place.
[00:21:15] Unknown:
Yeah. No matter how much I love the position of being the rebel and the pioneer, it would be great just to have a little bit more legal framework on this. So that it's more accessible to a lot more people.
[00:21:30] Unknown:
Exactly. It's about accessibility. And that's, that's why it's sort of frustrating because we, we can continue like being this, person who's in the gray zone or who's just trying to carry on some cultural heritage and, and keep this medical tradition alive. But, it's limited how much, how many people you can reach. And especially within areas where her medicine is really effective. It. Then it's. Yeah, it's a shame.
[00:22:01] Unknown:
Yeah. So you are also involved in a, community, herb garden. Can you tell us a little bit more about it?
[00:22:09] Unknown:
Yes. So it's in the middle of Oslo. and it's kind of been changing a lot. It came first in 2016, like the garden. And there was a group called Herbinists who were there for a while. And then I came and I said, oh, can I join in with you guys? And they were like, well, actually we're going to move on because we want to start selling, some, some herbs so you can just take over. So I was like, oh, right, okay.
[00:22:39] Unknown:
Wow. You came exactly at the right moment.
[00:22:43] Unknown:
But luckily with, Francesca, an Italian woman. And so we, we did it together and we've been so basically once a week, loads of people come through the past couple of years. and then we've been just giving them stuff to do and like with growing, harvesting, making stuff, like different, different things, every Wednesday. And then everyone sort of sits down and has a meal, like a really nice meal from the garden. so that's been really nice. Then there's been a lot of changes because it's in the middle of Oslo now. They took away quite a big chunk because they need to build a road. Oh. and then, yeah, the funding fell off and then like there's a new city because there's a, there's an employed city gardener there. And so it's just really lovely.
[00:23:30] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:23:31] Unknown:
Who's been holding the place, going and watering when we're not there and stuff. but now there's a new city farmer, so there's like a little bit of change. But I think this season also is going to be great.
[00:23:43] Unknown:
So that's a great project to reconnect people and plants and also to Yeah, to reconnect people with otter, I think.
[00:23:51] Unknown:
Yes, I think it's been really. Yeah, it's just been really lovely to see all these people get their hands dirty and, and you know, just really get in there with the plants. And when you're working it's sort of more comfortable to be with people and be quiet and then talk when you want to. And it's a much, much more natural way to socially interact. And I think Norway people can often experience is quite cold like that. Like people don't always. They're very comfortable about like not talking to anyone else, and not necessarily super friendly to strangers. But in this setting it's very easy to sort of get to know people and get new friends and start hanging out with them other places.
So that's been a really great social aspect as well as. Yeah. Although of course it's in the middle of the town so there's a lot of pollution. But still the food that people eat there has been is good I think for people to experience like growing and eating your own your own food. and it's been really nice to offer like free workshops. So that really low threshold. Now we also offering some paid for workshops which is like oh, a little bit bad. it sort of excludes some people but you know you still have to earn a bit of money so. But I'm trying to keep the free ones going as well so that everyone like the community can still keep coming independently of income or life situation.
[00:25:23] Unknown:
Yeah, that's something else I wanted to ask you. So you're situated in the Oslo area. Is there a lot of green space in that area or is it very urbanized? I have no idea.
[00:25:38] Unknown:
Yeah, Oslo is quite good as a capital. it's relatively small. I mean Norway as a whole has five and a half million people. So Oslo, yeah is like It's also on the fjord so it's quite easy to jump on a boat and go out to an island. A lot of the islands close to the city, you can't pick anything which is nice that they're protected, people can enjoy them. but then if you go further out you can, you can gather and also there's forests all around so you can go in in all different areas of the forest. So it's very quick to get to the forest from, from anywhere in Oslo. So that's, that's one of the reason I can, I can manage living there because yeah, it's it's quite a green ah, place. Yeah.
[00:26:26] Unknown:
Wow. I love that everyone should have like a forest nearby or just green space or you know. Yes. In some form or another. Yes. Wow. Yeah. So I've read on your I think it was on your Instagram page that when you do one on one consultations with people, you like to take them for a walk outdoors. Do you notice a difference in just doing this as an indoors thing or going out for a walk with people?
[00:26:58] Unknown:
I love going out for walks. I mean, it's just, it's just so great to get out, both for me and for them. so I really, I really prefer that. But it's also, I mean, it's sort of, it can be a little bit less focused, which sort of gives a little bit of light. and you sort of integrate, you integrate the weather and, and, you know, whatever wild animals you might come across or, you know, you're sort of much more in a place than, Than just sort of in clinic. and it's quite different who comes because, I have a lot of people who have, issues with energy levels. So then that often isn't the case. But, but when, but when they do come, then that's really nice. of course, you know, I have to offer, being able to sit down, in clinic as well. Yeah.
But I mean, it's also very seasonal because in Norway a lot of the year you have ice all around the ground and I wouldn't like.
[00:28:01] Unknown:
Right.
[00:28:02] Unknown:
And they just like fall over.
[00:28:03] Unknown:
Right.
[00:28:04] Unknown:
So luckily that hasn't happened. but yeah, it's. I think people just don't usually book in the winter walks so much.
[00:28:12] Unknown:
All right. Yes. So how do you deal with the Norwegian winters, as a herbalist? Because I think the time frame in which you can pick plants or make preparations is a lot smaller than here in Belgium. And I was wondering if, like, what I was personally wondering was maybe they work more with evergreen plants like spruce or. I don't know, is it.
[00:28:39] Unknown:
Good question. Well, I, I mean, to be honest, I wonder how you manage because you're gonna have to be going out like all year round, whereas I get this nice break, you know, recharge and sort of be in my winter mode. And then of course, when spring comes, it gets very busy and all of these plants come at once. And so I do work with, with, spruce and, pine and. But often, you know, they're great to harvest in the spring.
[00:29:10] Unknown:
yes. When you have the new fresh green tops. Yes.
[00:29:14] Unknown:
I mean, it's tasty. you can actually, you can have a little bit throughout the year as well. but, but, Yeah, off there's a lot of spring stuff, summer and then autumn and then the winter, you know, then there's just.
[00:29:29] Unknown:
Hibernation in winter mostly.
[00:29:32] Unknown:
There are some mushrooms that still stick around for a while after the plants have died back. but yeah, it's less, less, yeah. Which I, I really appreciate because I, I need that. I think also, you know, in the summer the light becomes much longer. Because I live in Oslo, I don't have the midnight sun. but still the daylight, like these days it gets dark around 10 in the evening. and then it's light already when I wake up. So that also gives extra energy. Whereas in the winter it's dark when you go out. and if you're working inside, you're not going to see any lights until you sort of go home and still dark.
And so it's more kind of restful. So you have the clarity of the cold, you have the stars. it's a, ah, different kind of work.
[00:30:30] Unknown:
So we have, yeah, we have winters here too in Belgium, but they are not as long lasting, not as intense I think. it's rarely covered in snow here. it's rarely freezing for several days or several nights in a row. So yeah, we can still harvest. Of course it's not the same as in summer or in spring or in autumn, but we can still harvest some roots in the winter. so yeah, but I also, I have to say, I also like this cycle of the seasons. So that you have when there is a lot of light and you feel very energetic, that there is a lot of work to be done. And then in the winter it's darker, less hours of light and then you can sort of go into hibernation modus.
and you know, still some things need to be done, but it's different. It's not that ultimate activity that is there in the summer.
[00:31:27] Unknown:
Right. And it's so nice when the spring comes and you haven't seen these plants, you know, the whole winter and then it's this kind of joy of reconnecting and be like yay.
[00:31:37] Unknown:
Exactly, exactly.
[00:31:40] Unknown:
Summer and oh, so fantastic. And then when the autumn comes it's like, oh no, the plantains are already gone. Oh, you know, it's
[00:31:50] Unknown:
Yes. And this is the crazy thing that I notice with myself. when it's winter time and it's like gone, the birds song is gone, the plants are gone. And I actually don't realize how much I'm missing it until I hear the birds again and until I see the plants coming up again. And then I can be moved to tears just to See them or hear them again. It's so crazy because it happens every year again and again and again.
[00:32:19] Unknown:
It's. Yeah, it's, it's. But it's like this is part of the blessing of the seasons is that, you know, we often don't know what we got or how lucky we are until it's taken away. And then it's, oh, wow, it's so great to have these species in this place. You know, we're so lucky to have them.
[00:32:41] Unknown:
yes. It makes spring so much better than it already is. If we wouldn't have winter. Yes. I think spring would be a little bit bleaker than it is now.
[00:32:53] Unknown:
Yes. And I wouldn't have energy to be running around harvesting if I hadn't had rested on properly.
[00:33:00] Unknown:
Yes. So, if I think geographically, like, I, know this is, of course it's generalization. I want to clear that out. But like, in France, they usually make a lot if, if they work with herbs, they like to, make sweet preparations like, sweets or liquors, or, And I know, the Anglo Saxon world likes to make tinctures. And is there, like, what kind of herbal preparations are used in Norway? or are there some typical Nordic things that you don't see happening a lot in the rest of the world?
[00:33:43] Unknown:
Well, one thing, that's historically been really big. It's not so big anymore. but I still hear people, some people talk about it in relation to grandparents and so on, is like a herbal porridge, which is like, for external use that you put on a wound and they use this word porridge, and it's quite a word, wide term. I mean, ah, Norwegians, you know, before the oil, were a really poor country. Like really just farmers and farmers that had. Were struggling to get by. So porridge was like a kind of quite a big part of life in general, I think. and, there were many different types of porridge and. And then they also made porridge with plants and, and use that, to put on, different, skin conditions or different complaints. Yeah.
[00:34:41] Unknown:
Wow. But so, like, what was the base of the porridge?
[00:34:45] Unknown:
Yeah, so for a long time I thought it was sort of an oat porridge with a bit of herbs in it. I realize now that actually it is like a pure herbal. It's kind of boiled herbs.
[00:34:57] Unknown:
All right.
[00:34:58] Unknown:
You just put on.
[00:35:01] Unknown:
Okay, okay. Yes. If I look at the tradition here in Belgium and in Germany, I know a lot of people, no, the poultice is made of, cabbage leaves. Which sometimes they're just, crushed with a rolling pin, but sometimes they are steamed lightly and then put on like a wound. but really this idea of a herbal porridge is totally new to me.
[00:35:30] Unknown:
Yeah, I must say I haven't practiced it so much. but it's, definitely something I haven't seen anywhere else. yes. And it's referred to in the old literature, so.
[00:35:40] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:35:40] Unknown:
Yeah, I've heard people talk about their grandparents and stuff using herbal porridges. Otherwise, historically, also herbs were used a lot to taste different. Like many different types of beers. And then there's this. This, very, very strong tradition with juniper, boiled juniper that has like, a special name which they use to clean all kinds of wounds, and. And clean the hair and. And they use this like it's a, ah, decoction, basically, which I know is very, very common and is still something that people make. but not so much, not so much. I mean, people in Norway are generally not tea people. It's mostly coffee, which also obviously is a plant.
yes, but, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:38] Unknown:
What always fascinates me is how, like, I know in Ethiopia they add some spices and some herbs to the coffee, but in Belgium, this is absolutely not done. is it a thing that happens in Norway?
[00:36:52] Unknown:
No, not so much. Not so much.
[00:36:55] Unknown:
It's crazy how much black tea we have that. That has herbs added to it, but not a coffee.
[00:37:02] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, but. But then there are like coffee replacements with dandelion and stuff, but that's not particularly Norwegian, but that is. Yeah, I guess it's. Come here.
[00:37:15] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. So, you also, were involved in the mobile herbal clinic in Calais, or maybe you still are. All right, please tell me all about it.
[00:37:31] Unknown:
Yeah, well, I guess, you know, the situation, with refugees is kind of pretty. Pretty dire. And it's. It's not so great to look at the news and just be like, oh, ah, it's so bad. I can't do anything about it. And going to Calais, for me, like, it's not. I haven't been there that many times. I mean, I'm. And I'm really grateful for the herbalists, the amazing herbalists who keep this running. I've just come in a little bit here and there, and it's just been a good feeling of coming in and just standing there with these people and just being like, I care, you know, and not. You know, it's because they come. They come from often really harsh conditions and. And then they go to the uk and they often just get sent back, you know, so that like the.
It's not as if we can come and save them in any way but but just being there and just being like, okay, we're people too. and we're sorry that you're going through this and that our government has put you, you know, put you in this position or like treating you this way. That's that's meaningful. And often people have a sort of relation to herbal medicine and can, can relate to that. Not everyone, and you know, not everyone wants it, which is cool. But Yeah, there's I guess it was. Been a little bit overwhelmed the first time. It was a little bit overwhelming for me because I'd never really been in that kind of situation. But yeah, it's really good. It's interesting to see how herbs can work also in a first aid situation because you hear so much about.
Yeah, it takes time for them to work. They're not like pills. You can't, you know, just, you know. And I'm really grateful for A and E. And in Calais we often end up driving people to or referring to hospitals and, and you know, definitely very clear like what we can and cannot do. And a big part of the job there is just telling people where they can access different things. and in some situations they can't access stuff and it's just kind of rubbish because you know, if there's an outbreak of scabies and people can't even shower, then it's a bit hard.
[00:39:59] Unknown:
It's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible that we still treat people, human beings this way in the 21st century.
[00:40:07] Unknown:
Right. And you know, now the UK is going to be sending like people to Rwanda like this. It's just so depressing. It's like, like But then, but then just going there and turning up feels like, okay, I'm, I'm part of the world. I'm not making a massive difference, but at least I'm part of the world. And the Norwegian, the state is really, really strict as well. So it's been one of the strictest states in Europe for like sending people back and stuff. So it feels nice because there are ah, herbalists from different places in Europe from like mostly England and Scotland, but also Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France, different places and also doctors who come sometimes as well. so that's really nice to kind of to meet around that and to see like other herbalists who care and work together. So. Yeah.
[00:41:11] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And what herbs are most used in that context?
[00:41:17] Unknown:
Well, there's a lot. Well when I've been there at least there have been a lot of coughs and colds and that kind of stuff. And we use just glycerides because Several Muslims and yeah. We just. Yeah. Easier to not have alcohol. and then there's been skin conditions so like wound herbs and Yeah. Fungal infection kind of. So it's quite symptomatic which it has to be when it's just acute. and then we've been giving like in some situations of sleep related or Some. Sometimes people have asked for like can I have help for my mental health? Like it's rarer that people ask for that but they do. Sometimes it's nice to have something to give them. And then there's digestive, like common digestive complaints. and then we can't really do that much for scabies. We have like some symptomatic relief and we're like just go, please go to the go and get some pills for that because like with these conditions we can't really fix it with herbs.
[00:42:27] Unknown:
Yes. And it's really contagious.
[00:42:29] Unknown:
So yeah, yeah it's better, it's better if they take the pills for that.
[00:42:36] Unknown:
And so you make glycerides. So like for instance if someone has mental health problems what are some of the herbs that you think about that could help them?
[00:42:46] Unknown:
Yeah, well, so there's a farm in England who. That makes a lot of the herbs for Calais and it's quite like big quantities but when they've been there it's between like 3 or 400 and like 7 or 800 people during a week that come through. and there's usually about four people there practicing. So I don't. I haven't been making It's great. There's a team who are in the UK and growing stuff and then people contribute with what's needed there. But yeah mental health. It's. Yeah. So it's really interesting picking out the plants that can be relevant because you have to think about it needs to be safe for low and high blood pressure. It needs to be safe for like all kinds of conditions that you know like that might, that person might have. So we have to have very safe but also very effective plants because it needs to be effective in this kind of condition. So they have to really feel the difference. You know, we really want it to work for them.
I don't remember all the herbs that are in the, in that mix. I do believe that, lemon balm is one of them.
[00:44:02] Unknown:
I was thinking about that. Yes.
[00:44:04] Unknown:
Yeah, it's good. It's a, lovely, lovely plan, isn't it?
[00:44:08] Unknown:
Yes. And of course I hear what you're saying. It has to be a very broadly, approachable herb because you don't know the background of the people, whether they have high blood pressure or any other issues. And it has to be very safe.
[00:44:27] Unknown:
Yes. And we don't have time to sit, you know, for an hour and talk with people. We can ask some questions, but because there's just hundreds of people coming through, we have to just use very safe plants. Yeah.
[00:44:39] Unknown:
M. Wow. I think it's beautiful that even in those conditions, some people are helping out with herbs to help other people. And I remember myself, it was. I will never forget this moment. I was visiting a friend in the UK and I had to cross the French UK border. And so this was actually in Calais. And this was, in a bus, me and my two kids. And, we were riding on a bridge. And I could see the barbed wire from the bridge. And if you look down you could just see all the trucks driving. And that's the moment I realized, whoa, some people are this desperate that they are trying to jump off a bridge, to fall on a truck to enter the uk.
And I thought, and I can just freely travel between those two countries because I'm born in Belgium, but it's just purely a coincidence. You know, I could have been born somewhere completely else in the world. And it just, I. It struck me like lightning.
[00:45:51] Unknown:
yeah, it's quite shocking being there and those barbed wires and it's just, there's a lot of police violence and you know, where they just take away the camps and they like when I was once, they'd built this mosque out of rubbish and the police just came and like, broke it completely. And like, just like every, like everything all the time. They're moving so much around that often they like, they hang their toothbrushes up in the tree so that, you know, when the police come and ruin the tents, at least they've got a toothbrush. Oh, you know, it's just like.
[00:46:31] Unknown:
Oh dear.
[00:46:32] Unknown:
Completely. and it's so. It's so strange, as you say, because it's so, you know, having been born in like, in these countries that often, Like Norway produces a lot of weapons, and sends to areas of conflict. And, And these people come from those areas and. And then it's no.
[00:46:59] Unknown:
Yeah. So one other question I have for you, Mari. It's a question that I usually ask to my, podcast guests is. Well, we've been talking about herbs, about herbal traditions. we've also criticized the system a little bit, I think. So did you ever hear that you were very lucky to live in this, time because in previous times you would have been burned alive?
[00:47:33] Unknown:
Yeah, people sometimes say that jokingly. Yeah, I don't know what I feel about that. Partly because in Norway, anyway, many of the women who were burned, okay, they were much more midwives than herbalists. Although many use herbs. There were also a lot of women who weren't herbalists. And, And, like, when people like to call me like a witch, which I think is fine. I don't really identify as a witch, and some people do, and that's also totally fine. but, it's been. It's been used very negatively. and I don't think, like. I don't think people who practiced herbs back in the day necessarily identified as a witch. In Norwegian, there's the sort of expression like trollschelling, which means, like troll woman, or sort of troll also means, like troldom. It means magic.
[00:48:51] Unknown:
Ah.
[00:48:52] Unknown:
So, So that, like a wise woman or trollscharing would have been more sort of the terms that one used. Yeah, but, yeah, I. I haven't delved so deeply in the history of, of women and men who were burnt in Norway. Also, a lot of men were burnt in Sami regions because in the, indigenous group of people in the Sami culture, often it's been men who practice, magic.
[00:49:27] Unknown:
Right.
[00:49:29] Unknown:
Although women, I think, in that tradition, actually, generally people have a lot. Know a lot about plants, in those traditions and have done. Yeah.
[00:49:39] Unknown:
Wow, this was a really interesting conversation. Just one last question. What do you think could still happen in the future to. How to say, to stimulate more connection between plants and people? What would be great if it would already be happening in the world?
[00:50:12] Unknown:
I think, it would be great if we took a moment, another, moment with other species. plants, I think, trees, to, observe them, and to learn from them, because they're all around us all the time. And often we have a relation with them that either we should get rid of them or we should use them. and if we have that kind of relation with other people, then, you know, it's not great to sort of feel like I should get rid of like someone or I should use them. Right. And I don't think that's a useful thing for other species. And I think that we, we're quite new as a species and we got quite a lot to learn from some of these, species that have been around a lot longer than us and who know a lot more about, about sticking around for a long time.
And I think if we, if we spend more time, without sort of music in our ears and running past through just like stopping and being and listening and, and spend like long time like just sitting and staring and, and being open with our senses and, and both observing ourselves and our surroundings. I think that, that would be really useful. as well as just recognizing that maybe we aren't always the most intelligent, you know, squishy, but without saying anything bad about us. Just, you know, just sort of. Let's, let's learn. Let's learn. Let's spend more time and learn. Because we seem to have seemed often feel like we don't have so much time. Right.
But it's funny how when you go out and you sit out and you're just there, time can expand and, and you just, often you just feel so much better. You know, there's this amazing generosity with a lot of species, when you take the time to listen to them.
[00:52:31] Unknown:
Yeah, I love that. I'm drinking your words. Really. I love it. I love it. Okay, well, thank you so much, Mari for this wonderful conversation. Thank you, Wildie, for listening again to this episode. I hope to see you back for the next one. And in the meantime, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye Bye. Yes, and for those who want to take a look around at Mari's website, her website is maricarpe. I will spell that out for you. M A R I K A A P E dot N O. That's for Norway. And you can also follow her on, Instagram. A warm thank you for listening.
Wilde. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now just go outside and follow your wild heart.
