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Anki Paulssen is the founder of Plant Spirit Guru. She has over 25 years of experience working with Western Master Plants, which offers profound insights and initiate a personal transformation that leads to emotional healing, spiritual growth, and self-discovery.
Her journey with the plants started when she was a child, growing up in the apartment above her grandparents' bakery, with a small garden in the back which had only one tree. She could see that tree from her bedroom window and started having conversations with it.
And that eventually brought us here, having an amazing conversation.
About moving from the Netherlands to Australia and feeling an immediate connection to the land and the plants.
About her travels to Peru and discovering ayahuasca, plant dietas and plantsongs.
About what a plant dieta is and Anki's first experience with it.
About talking from spirit to spirit with a plant and how it helps you get back into your body.
About the timeless wisdom of plants, singing over them, and asking permission to use them.
About regional and cultural differences when it comes to basic plant knowledge and the use of medicinal plants and herbs.
About the future relationship between plants and people.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Anki and her work on the website:
https://plantspirit.guru/ (in English) or https://plantspiritguru.nl/ (in Dutch)
Or follow her on Instagram @plantspiritguru.
Anki talks about the book "Plant Spirit Medicine", that was written by Eliot Cowen, not Pam Montgomery as mentioned. The book that Pam wrote is "Plant Spirit Healing". Both are must reads!
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Hi, Wildling. Hey.
[00:00:02] Unknown:
I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com.
[00:00:24] Unknown:
Thank you so much. Much.
[00:00:31] Unknown:
Welcome to Wild, the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2. 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal. I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls.
Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and. And plants. And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you're ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Welcome, Wildi, to this new episode of the Wild podcast. And today I'm here with Anki Paulsen of Plant Spirit Guru. She's a total plant nerd. So, Anki, tell us, how did your journey with the plants get started? Was it something that was already there in your childhood, or has it evolved more recently?
Tell us all about it.
[00:02:34] Unknown:
well, firstly, thank you very much, Liva, for inviting me, and I'm very excited to be on your podcast. Answer your question. has it started in my childhood? A little bit. I grew up in the south of the Netherlands, and, we didn't really have a garden because we lived on the first and the second floor of our house. But down beneath there was a sort of garden and the bakery of my grandfather. But in the back of the garden was a gigantic rowan. And that was the first really plant or tree. It's a tree that I actually make contact with, because I was kind of. I was an early child, and there was lots of times when I was alone in the house and I stared out of my window at this rowan tree and just started conversations like, you know, hello. Just really, like on the mundane level, like, you know how you talk to a plant and then the plant or the tree didn't really speak back to me. So.
So then when I grew up, I sort of forgot about this. I'm very. I'm very a practical person, but I'm also really high sensitive. So I'm always with one leg in a sort of like, yeah, very energetically sensitized world. And I noticed that, yeah, especially with people, I had lots of trouble that they would say stuff to me, but that would not. It would not be what they would sort of like and listen to other stuff in their body. More like on an energetic way. So I totally felt at home in the forest because there it was calm, it was just peaceful. It was just. There was just a different kind of energy. But because I live in the city, you know, I'm city girl, did not really have a lot of experience. I didn't have a grandmother that took me by the hand in the forest and showed me plants. So, no, definitely no hurt. Herbalist, tradition.
No such thing with herbal medicine in my family at all. This all became later where I sort of was really dissatisfied with the, life I was leading. I was very busy. I already had two children really early on. And we had a business, a software business. yeah. But then we moved to Australia. And in Australia, I felt this strange connection to the land. It was. There were certain places where you were not supposed to walk. And I felt that. I did not know actually what I felt in the beginning. But that's when I started exploring these feelings, like what happens with me with Anki, when I.
When I touch a plant or when I'm close to a plant. And then I started reading because I'm an avid reader, very inquisitive and very passionate about, you know, what people discover in these different worlds. So, yeah, started really basically with doing energetic healings and being interested in how all your auras work and. But always these plants were getting in. And I kept on feeling like, oh, my God, what. What is going on with me? I thought I was going a little bit crazy, actually, because I hear stuff, I see stuff, I smell stuff that I know is not really there. So, yeah, I started looking at indigenous people. What do they see? First thing that came to mind in Australia was these beautiful paintings where they would actually, Well, they paint plant songs. And then I've heard something about people in Peru, the Shipibo people who. Who sing plant songs. And that's where it all started. That's when I'm like, wow, I gotta get to know what's going on in the world. So traveling everywhere, we traveled extensively. I immersed myself into ethnobotany, read everything there was to read. Of course I found out about Pam Montgomery and I read her book, Plant Spirit Medicine. And that really opened everything up for me. From there on, I thought, a, I'm not crazy, B, there's more people like me. Yay. Because I didn't meet anybody, you know, I could not talk to anybody in the community. And the indigenous people in Australia, well, they were not keen on talking to foreign people.
That was just the case. It's, about 20 years ago when we moved. That has changed, luckily. So there are no stuff about bush food. And they really let you in and they, they want to get to know and teach you their knowledge. But when I was in Australia, that was certainly not the case. So I started going on my first trip to, Peru, because I actually want to experience it, you know. And. Yeah, the first connection I make with, the plants, which is totally something completely different, is a master plans. And that was of course ayahuasca. And she.
My first journey with her. When I sat in the jungle there. Yeah, that was when everything started. It was just. I saw all the colors of the plant weaving into each other. I saw the songs coming out of the curanderas, the people who have done very long standing apprenticeship, with these plants. And they were coming in and outside of bodies. It was. The whole room was with intricate patterns. And that all resonated to these songs. So that was Plant Song. That was my first time ever that I saw that. and my life ever has changed after that. It's never been the same. It's just.
That's what I experienced when I was a child. Not per se the same, but something similar happened to me. Sort of like a synesthetic experience that I could not explain. But there it was in the jungle. And these people, they have been doing this for years, for eons, you know. So this was nothing new. It was not something that I had discovered. And it was also something that I could passionately speak about to other people. So, yeah, I started apprenticing there. And, yeah, I went back to Australia. We moved since to Indonesia. I started talking to people over there, what they do with plants, how sacred certain plants are, what they do, what their medicine is.
Started speaking to elders and. Yeah, actually everywhere in the world, except in my own country, except in Europe, because I really. Yeah, of course we had all the herbs. But that was very on the mundane. It was like this plant was doing this and this and this for you. And I thought, I know this is really old now. This, this is the old tradition. Because now herbalists, what I believe, they don't see one plant for one ailment or, or disease. You know, it's bigger, and broader now. But back then it was still like, oh, this plant. And you learn how the plant looks and what it does, but you didn't learn anything on how to pick the plants.
You know, that you should talk to the plant before you actually go out there in the field and say, well, I'm going to. Is it okay for me to gather you because I have somebody with an illness, blah, blah, blah. And are you the right choice? all these things that I learned in the jungle was very normal. That they would go out in the jungle and they would have some quiet time. They walk around and then they see this plant and then they ask this plant for permission. And they leave an offer. It's not like you go in the woods and you snatch some plants and you just make a nice concoction and you think this is going to heal you or something like that. So I understood that this was certainly not the case. So when I was back in the Netherlands, I was determined to start dieting or do a dieta, with the plants that grew around me.
the first thing I came back, I was sitting on a bench under a big willow tree and I said, okay, what's going on? Why am I here? I was a bit lost because I felt ill in Peru. I had to come back to the Netherlands. I felt really lost and actually quite sad that, you know, I was so ill that walking was hard. And this gigantic willow tree just. It felt like she was embracing me, like with all this wisdom she had. And she just said to me, aki, it's okay. Don't worry. Just sit here. It's going to be fine. And from then on, I start crying. It's still really emotional for me now.
yeah, that was the start of dieting plants. So Willow was my first diet. So you know what a diet is? What they do?
[00:11:57] Unknown:
No. Please explain.
[00:11:59] Unknown:
Okay, so, a diet is like, it's like a marriage between you and the plants.
[00:12:06] Unknown:
All right?
[00:12:06] Unknown:
So you make a connection with each other and it's on both sides. And you promise to cherish this plant. You honor her or him. And it can be. It's almost like you have a contract with each other. And for that, she or he bestows you with healing, with sacred knowledge, with wisdom, and also with protection. So it's like this friendship bond that you have with each other. And it's a lifelong thing, you know, so all my plants in brackets, because they're not my plants. We all. I. When I. When there's something wrong with me, I. I ask plants, what. What can I do? What's going on? You know, have you seen something? Have I missed something? You know, have I done something? And. And so these. These bonds I have with plants, and it's. It's now about 22 or something. that is just. These are my friends, you know, it's not that I don't need human friends anymore, but these beings, they really do not let you down or they have no agenda with you. You know, they don't gossip or something like that.
So, yeah, that is. And how do you do this? How do I make a tincture, usually. And I, know one of the people I admire, Pam Montgomery, she calls them plant initiations. So that is actually a beautiful word because every time you drink, and she makes an elixir, I make a tincture on infusion. Every time you drink that, you ingest the plants, you also have to travel to the plant spirit realm. And you do this by a breathing technique or shamanic journeying with the drum or something, because you need a vehicle for these plants to get there. So it's not something like you go into the nature and you say, hi, I'm Anki, you know, and then you wait because that. Certainly for me, that doesn't happen. So it happens when I'm in a sort of like a state of. Yeah, an alternate state of consciousness, you know, a different. Where I'm in a different place.
And then communication is just very vivid. It's usually not true words. It's mostly through a feeling in my body, or it is just sometimes I see a symbol or there is a color, but. Or there is an explosion of energy somewhere in my body. And sometimes it's crying or it can be all sorts of things. It's the best thing that ever happened to me. It's this beautiful work. So. So yeah, this is. This is basically what I do. yeah, this is my job now, so to say.
[00:15:05] Unknown:
So beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. What. What a story. It's really interesting. So now you work with this master plan diet with people. And, how does it work exactly? Do these people work with just one plant or do they sometimes use different plants together or can you elaborate a little bit on how you are working with people and plants?
[00:15:32] Unknown:
yeah, I sure can. So usually sometimes I sit in a space with people and I see a plant coming up. And she tells me, or he tells me, this is the right plant for this person. But that's not always the case. Sometimes people come to me and they say, oh, I've got such a connection with the elm tree, or I've got a connection with, you know, the yarrow. And then we start with that plant. We. I do not work with a concoction of plants. I only work with one plant. Because I think when you move all these beings together, there's just a lot going on. And for people who are new to this path, I usually start with Mockworth. That's probably my favorite plant.
[00:16:17] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:16:18] Unknown:
Because she is really like, yeah, she's a sorceress, she's a magician, she is just all of the things you can imagine. And she's also sort of like a soft start she gives you. I mean some plants are a little bit tougher. They do not want to let you in in the beginning, if that makes sense. But mark words, she's welcoming, she's just waiting for, you know, so, and then we start first by establishing like how you are, in your, in your daily life. What do you do? What is your job? How are you, energetically. How do you move in yourself? Where are you at this moment and from there on. Yeah, it's very personal and individual. But I usually start by teaching the people that come to me to make a journey. Because that is really something you need to understand. for other people it's just dancing. You know, they move their body and then they are in this trance sort of thing, this altered state of consciousness and then they can make contact. Then I instruct them to make an altar for the plants.
And then we drink twice a day in the morning on your empty stomach. And yes, with a tincture. If you cannot stand alcohol, we have a different solution for that. But that's kind of tough. But I mean you're making a commitment. You know, it's just like you want to do this. It's not a wishy washy, like, oh, let's do this today and not do this tomorrow. So you drink first thing in the morning and before you go to bed. And in this time I want you to make a conscious effort to be in that space with the plant. And from there on, then, you know, I guide you through the whole process. And if stuff comes up, you know, and stuff will come up, you know, because it's. It can be very emotional for people.
and that's beautiful. I love that. And so we share. We share stuff with each other. And, you know, from there on, I sort of make a little. I make notes. Like, I want to see if there's people having the same experiences, you know, with a certain plant that they. The same stuff comes out. And this is really amazing when that happens. And every time I'm like, I had this too. Like, wow, you had this? Because I never talk to them about how this being looks or how this being feels, because I don't want to fill in their experience. You know, I am a very enthusiastic talker and.
But I always hold back. I'm just sit back. And I said, relax, you know, don't talk. Let them do that. And then you can see, at least that's what they say, that when there's something similar happens, like, oh, they describe the spirit of mugwort to me, and then I'm like, oh, yes, you've seen her. You know, so that is. That is wonderful. And yeah, we have some similar experience with. With quite a few people now. And, Yeah, there has to be some sort of a book in there. I don't know. I haven't really thought about it, but that, ah. How do you find this? Have you experienced this yourself?
[00:19:31] Unknown:
Well, I have some experience with, like, mugwort. and also, because I was wondering, have you ever worked with teasel, what we call gardenboll, in Dutch?
[00:19:41] Unknown:
No, it's.
[00:19:42] Unknown:
It's a very interesting plant. It's like a very special spiky plant.
[00:19:46] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:19:46] Unknown:
And it has something very distinct. So at the base of the leaves, it gathers water. And, what. Which is. What is really interesting about this is this water is also digesting insects, which is a really interesting mechanism. But however, I learned from an older herbalist, she told me, you have to dip your finger into this water at the base of the teasel plant and then rub your eyelids with it, and it will make you see more clearly. And I remember doing this and looking back. I actually think she meant the looking more clearly part in a more figurative way. Yes, exactly. Like in opening the third eye or something. because what happened after the very first time I did this, I started writing my first book. Really crazy.
Yes. So. And in general, I love Diesel. in general, it's not such a loved plant because of the spikes and because of the. But it's. I just Love it. I have a really deep relationship with it. I really love it. Yes. And, mugwort as well. It's just such a magical plant. And I love how you, how you say, how you speak about the plants, because I think this is one of the diseases of modern time in the Western world that, we see plants more as objects than as subjects, as characters, as persons. whereas in other parts of the world, it's very normal to see plants as persons, as characters.
[00:21:30] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. Yes.
[00:21:33] Unknown:
And one thing I was wondering. So if we think about plant spirits or spirit plants, we often think about hallucinogenic plants, but we tend to overlook how powerful plants like mugwort and rowan and yarrow and elderberry really are. And what do you think is the reason for this? Is it because we live in a very overwhelming and loud world and we have lost the art of listening with the heart? We. What are the reasons we are overlooking this?
[00:22:05] Unknown:
well, yeah, it's basically what you said. I think we are living a very loud, screaming world and everything needs to be bigger and more beautiful. I mean, it's sort of like, the Instagram experience. When you're on Instagram, you have to be like this. And, and if you do a, if you do a ceremony, because this. Then we're talking about ceremony with ayahuasca or with wachuma or with mushrooms. These, of course, these are plants. They are like, bang. They're opening everything up. You have no choice because they have the power to already take you there. In a sense that I have to. When I go and I do a diet or an initiation with mugwort, I have to use a vehicle. What. What I already said. So a lot of people only look at ayahuasca.
Because also it's a foreign thing and it's quite hip now. You know, when I first did ayahuasca, there was not a lot of people who heard about it did ayahuasca. That's not what I meant to say, but when I drank the brew, I believe that the ceremony around, the plants, that is very important that we have sort of lost of. At least let me speak for myself, that I lost that sense of sacredness and that sense of belonging and by drinking a plant. Well, actually two. It's a combination, of two plants in ayahuasca. I was there immediately. I didn't have to make so much effort. And that really gave the way just to discover all the plants that are teacher plants, but perhaps not master plants, because that's the distinction some people make. For me, that is not really the case because for me, all plants are master plants or teacher plants. So.
But some of them, yeah, they are. They have the hallucinogenic, compounds, and they bring you there immediately and they're open that third eye or whatever it is that you want to speak about, and you're immediately transported into that world. There is a sense of all the muck and all the noise you have in your head that's just diminished. And suddenly you have this heart and it's opening and it's pulsating and you feel the love of the people. You feel the love of the curanderas or the medicine. And for some people, that is the first time in years that they have experienced that and self love and all these beautiful things that humans really need to feel more, you know, because if you love yourself, you love your plants, you love your forest, you love your environment, and then we love each other and then, hooray, you know, we've done a good job. So if you need a plant or, or a cacti or a mushroom to do that initially, to get to bring you there, then, yes, please.
But then do it also in a way that is, you know, that is the right way. You know, don't go with somebody on the. In a. Somewhere in an attic in Amsterdam, drinking with somebody who has no knowledge, who just, you know, has the medicine and brew and blah, blah and just bought it somewhere. Don't do that because that's. These plants are sacred beings. They need a reverence. They are beautiful. They're also rare. You know, it's not something that you can just buy at the Del Airs or at the Albert Hein, you know, yeah. Be careful who you drink with, who you choose to start this journey. And the most important things. Are you willing to change what you are inside, what you have inside? Are you willing to make these changes?
Otherwise, please don't go there because it's. This is. This is big work. This is. It's huge. It's not.
[00:26:11] Unknown:
Thank you for pointing that out, because what I see now happening sometimes is, people hop from one hallucinogenic plant to another and they just. They don't do the work, if you know what I mean. Yes.
[00:26:26] Unknown:
It makes me feel really sad, not only for the plants, but also for the whole environment, for everything. If you don't know what you're doing and you hop, it's like a spiritual or really hopping. You go from one thing to another, but nothing really sticks, nothing really Helps and why that is, that doesn't really matter, but it makes me feel sad. Just stick to one thing. And of course, starting doing a dieta with a plant that just grows in your backyard. I mean, like the dandelion for example. That is such a powerful plant. It's one of my favorites, if I have favorites. Sorry.
And the nettle, you know, the nettle is just like your plant. When you touch it, you get a burn. But why do you get this burn? And try to understand how this plant works for you and what you will gain in brackets when you ingest these plants for six weeks. And you are very intimate with these plants. I mean, what will you get out of it, you know? Wow. Think about that.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
Yeah, it's interesting to see how, we see spikes and thorns, et cetera, as of course it's defense of the plants. And we tend to see it as something we have to stay away from. But it also means protection. And this is very interesting. I think if you look at a plant that way, and I think stinging nettles, first message is pay attention.
[00:28:07] Unknown:
Yeah, Pay attention and be still. Before you actually, you know, go out there with your mind and blah, blah, blah, blah, just be still what is actually happening and take a moment, pause. That is actually the word better than be still. Just pause. And that is what a lot of plants are teaching, have taught me, you know, because, you know, I also have adhd, you know, if you want to put a label on it. So I'm very much out there, you know, But I can also be very introverted. And the plants taught me that it's both okay that I can do all these things at the same time, but I can still listen to my inner voice.
And that is something that is just that money can't buy, you know.
[00:28:56] Unknown:
Yes. And thank you for sharing that about the ADHD spectrum because, well, as a mother of a neurodiverse family, I can really appreciate that you're so open about it. And sometimes I wonder if the neurodiverse people are really the canaries in the coal mine when it comes to pointing out how far we have come from nature, how big that distance has become and how that is really hurtful for the human soul.
[00:29:28] Unknown:
So yes, absolutely, 100% with you. I mean, with a bit of plant, you talk spirit to spirit. That's basically it. And that's what at least I. I had forgotten. I neglected my spirit completely. And then I got so hyperactive and hypersensitive. Hyper at everything that I was basically lost, felt depressed, felt, you know, no self worth, all these things. And it all came because I lost contact with my own spirit. I did not have any understanding or any feeling where my spirit had gone. It was sort of like it was out of my body. I, I could see myself literally doing all these crazy things. And then, there was Anki sitting somewhere else. So plants brought me back into my body that it was okay to be in my body because I think that's, that's what I feel.
With a lot of clients who have adhd, they're not really in their body, they are somewhere else. And either they have experienced a trauma in their childhood or whatever, it doesn't matter. Sometimes I think I was born like that, you know, something that the mother experienced when, you know, that my mother experienced when she was pregnant with me. I don't know, it doesn't really matter. You don't have to go back and talk about all these traumas. It's more about the moment you feel that. What are you going to do about it and who am I going to talk to?
To a person, you know. No, I'm going to talk to a plant because they are not biased. That's my motto is let the plant be your guru. You know, it's not that I don't trust humans, but they usually have their own agenda or they're biased or they are scared of something that brings up in themselves. And a plant doesn't have that. No, no.
[00:31:23] Unknown:
Yes. And I think, I think the wisdom that a plant brings is also timeless because they are such old organisms. I mean, a lot of plants were already here even before humankind started. So in a way they are our ancestors. And I really like that. And I personally, I could feel that, after my parents died this became even more important to me. Because, you know, your parents are very often the people you turn to if you have like a dilemma in your life of if you want, or if you want some advice from them. and they weren't there anymore. So I just went to the plants and asked them and this became more and more valuable to me.
[00:32:10] Unknown:
Yeah, well, I'm glad you discovered that. But can you imagine if you have not discovered that?
[00:32:16] Unknown:
Then you feel lost.
[00:32:18] Unknown:
Exactly. Well, that's sort of how I felt. I mean, you know, I lost my father when Very, very early on as well. And yeah, I felt lost. So, you know, even when he was sick, I was talking to a rowan tree who was not saying anything back. But the fact That I had some sort of a friend there, a trusted companion who would always stand there. And especially in summer, you know, when the berries came, these red berries, and it was just so magnificent that some being would already be there for so long. And we have just. We're just a bleep, you know, so all these plants are our elders. They are our ancestors. Because we have plants, we are here because literally they are the oxygen that we breathe in. Without trees, without plants, we might as well just lie down on our stone because there's no.
[00:33:12] Unknown:
There is no human life, without the plants.
[00:33:14] Unknown:
It's.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. Right. Yes.
[00:33:17] Unknown:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. So another thing I was. I was really wanting to talk about, which I'm really passionate about, is that I found out that we have in Europe, people who are called Galdor Singers. Have you ever heard about these people?
[00:33:33] Unknown:
No. No.
[00:33:35] Unknown:
Okay. Well, kaldor is an old, An old Germanic word from Galdras, and it means already song. So I'm calling them Galdor Singers, which is actually Sing singers. This is a bit of a strange word. But these were, I think usually women, and they would go out there and gather plants, and they had this whole, whole scheme that they would do. And it's actually somebody documented that, a priest, I think, somewhere in the 10th century in a document called Lucknunga. Something difficult, right? Yes, yes, yes. And we have, this one spell or charm, which is called the Nine Herbs Charm. I'm sure you've heard about that. And there is actually a description of how you make that concoction and how you actually gather the plants. And they said, we sing a song over the plants.
So when I read that, I was just like, yes, we've got people here, too, who used to do that. You know, we're not. We don't have to go to Peru or to any other country. We have. We have people in Europe now. Of course, we had the Inquisition and all these medicine women, the witches, the lovely witches were. A lot of them were banned. And we. Yeah, we don't have a lot of that knowledge anymore, but it's still there. So I. I delve into this Nine Herbs charm and read everything online, what there was to find, and started thinking, oh, I'm going to diet all these plants to see what they had to say to me. And I did them. Except for the crab apple. I did not really do that. But, yeah, they had a really big message for me, and it was initially about the communication that they were working together in this south. They make. Which was also used for Elfish magic, to treat Elfish magic and then to treat all the diseases of the devil.
I'm going like, whoa, what is this thing? So, but it was the way that the galo singer would administer it. So she would sing to gather the plaz. She would sing when she would make the salve. She would sing when she would administer it over the patients. That is amazing. I mean, hello. You know. So, yeah, so that's what I started doing. So now I'm singing plant songs before I'm gathering some of them. They have been given to me by some plants. Nettle has a beautiful plant song. And she. She lets me use it when I. When I, you know, when I. When I describe, or prescribe a, ah, diet for a client. And we sing the song and it's just different. There's a whole different, yeah.
Energy to that. Suddenly just. It's hard to explain in words because it's not necessarily words that the plant give me. so, yeah, that is another component I found, in European, literature, basically from the 10th century. And then, of course, we got Hildegard von Bingen, my power woman, which, of course, it has a very Christian source because, you know, she was an abbess and she had to do this because otherwise she would also have been burned. It's a bit of a puzzle why she could do this, actually, for me, because they say that she also treated the pope and a lot of cardinals, and she was very high esteem. And she had. They said to her that she was allowed to speak in the plants in such a way like they were holy beings.
So she is also a source of. Yeah, her spiritual, remedies are just amazing. Hildegard from Benedict. Do you like her? Are you a friend?
[00:37:25] Unknown:
And I think also she has been lucky in a way that she was able to do this. I think if she would have been born like 500 years later, she would have gotten into serious trouble. yes. And I also like that you mentioned the songs, because singing is also such an important way to open up the heart and to make this connection. So that really makes sense to me.
[00:37:50] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, it does. It does. Singing is really. Yeah. Something. Something happens in you when you sing, you know, And I don't. I do not necessarily sing beautiful or something. You know, I'm not really, wanting to record an album or something like that. God, no. But it's just sometimes it's a whistle or just a tone or just like M or something crazy that sits in the back of your Throat that comes out. And yeah, there something. The energy clears up and it gets really, really sort of. How can I say that? There's this. I can't find a word for that. But there's this different quality in the air. It's like it's purification or something like that of the energy. And it's like you have a clearer path in where you go. I mean, of course, babies, they get some lullabies. When you are lucky as a baby, your mom sings you a lullaby. I mean, ah, ah. And then there's this, this. This patting on the back so there's a rhythm. There's the drum.
And of course, the drum is really important. Or, you know, the rattle, you know, that is the thing. So sound. And yeah, that is a really important part of.
[00:39:12] Unknown:
Of.
[00:39:12] Unknown:
Of plant spirit medicine, at least for me. Yeah.
[00:39:16] Unknown:
Yes, yes. So you have lived in both Australia and the Netherlands. You. You're currently living in the Netherlands, I think.
[00:39:24] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:39:24] Unknown:
And you're working international.
[00:39:26] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:27] Unknown:
so what are the differences, you notice when it comes to general basic plant knowledge, like, Well, something I noticed myself, is that usually the countries with far more remote areas, that's where the plant knowledge is still well intact or not dying out, as in the more urbanized spaces. so what is your experience with that?
[00:39:59] Unknown:
I think most of my clients, they live in urban spaces. They live in the city because they have really a need to connect with nature. it's hard for them. I mean, the Netherlands, we don't have really big cities, but if you live in London or in Paris, you know, in the really big cities, yeah, it's. It's hard for you to connect. You have a park, but that's not wild nature. People who live in the wild and wild nature. Yeah, they don't usually come to me because they already have that connection. You know, I can. They teach me. You know, I'm so happy to talk to them because I didn't have that background, you know, So I, I love speaking to people who. Who are fortunate to live on the big lands somewhere in Appalachia or, you know, that.
Because that's. That's a whole different setting. Saturn setting is very important in, in this thing. And yeah, of course, you have more knowledge when you live in the wild than you live in Amsterdam. you know, on the. On the third floor. Yeah. Yeah. Was that your question? I'm sorry.
[00:41:05] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was also wondering if the. If you notice a, difference between, different countries when it comes to Opening up to the plant spirits?
[00:41:17] Unknown:
no, not really.
[00:41:18] Unknown:
All right.
[00:41:19] Unknown:
I think it's a universal thing. As soon as you find somebody who is interested, then it doesn't matter where they come from, all age or gender. No, not really. I have a lot of, male clients as well, you know, who initially, some of them are a little bit embarrassed. But then as soon as I say, well, you know, disregard all these feelings that you now have, Just do this for yourself. You don't have to talk to anybody in the beginning. If you are, you know, what are they going to say? no, I think for everybody, as soon as you open to this path, you did your first diet, dieta. Or you know, or you have another experience, then that's it. You pretty much sucked in.
[00:42:06] Unknown:
Into this world, you know, I love that. I love how it's a universal thing, really.
[00:42:12] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah.
[00:42:13] Unknown:
Wow. So, one of the other things I was. I was wondering, about. So in. In Belgium, and the Netherlands, if I compare the two, when it comes to herbs and herbalism, also foraging, I can see quite some differences, because I have quite some students from the Netherlands. And of course, they tell me, all kinds of things. And what I find mind blowing is that if people go to their doctor with, let's say, a throat infection or a bladder infection or even just a common cold, usually the doctor will prescribe medication to them.
[00:42:56] Unknown:
Uh-huh.
[00:42:57] Unknown:
And in the case of a bladder infection or a throat infection, the first thing was. Will always be antibiotics in the majority of the cases. And then my students tell me, oh, if we go to the doctor in the Netherlands, like with a throat infection, usually, m. We'll get the message, well, just drink some sage tea, some ginger tea. if we have a bladder infection, we'll try some unsweetened cranberry juice. and then later on, when the herbs really are not sufficiently working, or when it's. It's really a major case of a bladder infection, then they will scribe antibiotics, which we know, of course, have a lot more side effects just on the intestinal flora alone. So, yes. How is this possible? We are geographically so close, Belgium and the Netherlands, and it's such a different approach.
I'm really. I'm just so surprised to find out about this.
[00:43:57] Unknown:
well, I can tell you I've got one client, or she's actually an apprentice of me, and she nearly finishing her PhD. and she's a doctor, and she is very much into herbal medicine. So maybe it's a newer Generation who are more open to prescribing, as you said, a sage, concoction or you know, something with cranberry for a Black Swan fraction. They are way more open to because it also has to do with lifestyle. Here in the Netherlands, it's now that your gp, your doctor is saying to you, well, how much do you exercise? How much do you drink? All these, all these things that's starting really now to, yeah, to be more important information for people that they first ask about their lifestyle and then they want to prescribe something that's milder instead of going for the antibiotics. Because we all don't, we all know that it doesn't really work. We become sort of immune from, for these, you know, for these medicines. So yeah, I, I, I don't know about Belgium. I lived in Bruges for a short time, very long ago and, but I rarely see a doctor. So I don't really necessarily believe that they can understand what's going on with, with me because they see me what, five minutes?
And, and, and I'm not saying, you know, that is what they want to do. I think they're actually, no, I think.
[00:45:25] Unknown:
Most doctors really would love to take more time for patients.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. I think that's why lots of people become doctors because they want to listen to people and they want to, I.
[00:45:34] Unknown:
Want to help people.
[00:45:36] Unknown:
Yeah. But yeah, I think it has to do with a different look on now. What is dis ease? What are we doing in society? A lot of people are very stressed nowadays. Maybe so many people have an underlying illness or something. But it's all, it starts in the mind. I mean it's like that's what I love about Ayurveda in India. You know, they start, they have these seven stages of disease, of illness and it starts with dis ease in the mind usually. So, you know, and I'm not saying if you have a bladder infection that that is all in the mind first, but maybe it is because we now know we can connect grief with lung, with asthma and all, ah, with lung diseases and sorrow, with stuff in the liver. So there is a whole lot of stuff going on. And of course plants, they know these things.
The first thing she lets me feel is that I had some unresolved grief. One of the plants and yarrow, she said, oh, you have something stuck there. And I didn't resolve any, just a little bit of grief with my, for my father. And that came up when I was drinking her. Like massive. And that of course cured all sorts of other things. So there is something to say that when you. Yeah. When you're in contact with the deeper knowledge of plants, that there are connections, everything is connected to each other, in that sense. And yes, I'm hoping that GPs and doctors would start prescribing, herbs. but then we also have to ask ourselves, how are they collected?
Is there somebody singing over the herbs before? You know, not to sound, a bit ridiculous, but how is that process going? I know if you, for example, go to Vileda, I trust Willeda, you know what they do. I've been in their Apothec, I've been to their factory. I love these people. I know that they're doing the right thing. But a lot of herbal concoctions that you can buy are just made in a factory. Nobody has been singing to the plants. Nobody has been asking the plants for permission. Nobody has been giving an offer back. You know, it's reciprocity. Nobody has been doing that. So are these plants really healing? I don't know.
Have they lost their, their capabilities? You know, I don't know if that's true, but that's what I feel that could be the case.
[00:48:13] Unknown:
That's an interesting question. Yes. And I, I just want to get back to, to the doctors because I, think one, big gap in Belgium is that if you go to the university to become a doctor, there is no plant knowledge in any of the studies. so, this is really. Doctors don't learn about them. So when they're practicing with their patients, they just don't know anything about the herbs. And this is a bit frustrating because, for some people, they want to use medicinal herbs and, they take medication. And then every source will tell them, please, if you're taking medication, consult your doctor first before taking any kind of herbs. And then they consult their doctors, and their doctors just don't know anything about it. So, I think it's a frustration on both sides, the patient and the doctor.
[00:49:12] Unknown:
And,
[00:49:13] Unknown:
But I love how it's starting to grow. There's this herbal thing, in doctor context in the Netherlands, because I think it makes herbal medicine more accessible to the people. Because for some people, it makes a difference if the doctor says so. You know, it's a different thing. It's on a different level. So I think it's a good case for herbs that this happens. and also some of my students even move to the Netherlands because the legal framework is more, Much more, kind when it comes to giving Herbal consultations or, making and selling your own herbal products.
And yes, I think in Belgium, there's still a long road to go there. But I can also see it happening. And I, I think it's because we are a growing number of herbalists here and so we can just put a little bit more pressure on the whole legal system because the change really comes from, from, you know, the grassroots, the underground movements. And yes, usually the legal things change because the situation changes and people change the situation. So it's interesting to see what's happening there in Belgium and it's going slowly. But I can, I can, yeah, I can really see some things happening or I can see some people working in a more, in a corporation, so that, you know, for instance, they have to invest in expensive infrastructure when it comes to making their own herbal products. But then, you know, if they have a corporation, they can pay for it together. And that's where it becomes really interesting, I think. Yes.
[00:51:01] Unknown:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, maybe you could be a pioneer in that, you know, teaching doctors, like making like a workshop for last year's students. they have a lot of workload or. But they would be interested to come and sit with you in a workshop and where you can just talk to them about like, simple, ways of relieving certain, ah, ailments. I mean, maybe if that would be something that they could, you know, be interested in, that could make things rolling, you know.
[00:51:32] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:51:33] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:51:33] Unknown:
Well, the interesting thing in Belgium is that the pharmacists, they do get a lot of, well, not a lot of, but they do get some basic plant skills in their education and but for doctors it's generally not allowed to follow these classes. So it's kind of a strange thing. And I can understand that doctors have to learn a lot already. I mean, because there is so much scientific research about the human body and how it works and about medication and But really this would be such an interest, interesting skill for doctors to learn. Yes, I agree.
[00:52:12] Unknown:
Yeah, there's lots of stuff going on. And of course most medication are derived from plants, but then they are so, you know, there's so, so much dysfunction going on, with them. Can't really explain that very well. But it's not a pure thing anymore. And usually also they stole of course, a lot of knowledge from the Amazon Moist. Medication is derived from plants in the Amazon. And you know, there were indigenous people. And this is maybe a whole different topic. But I really feel that, you know, why are a lot of indigenous people don't want to share their knowledge with white people because of the experience they had.
[00:52:52] Unknown:
They're being robbed. They're really literally being robbed. And they are not honored and respected for their knowledge and wisdom. Yes.
[00:53:01] Unknown:
And still not. It's still going on, you know, as we speak. They're coming in with their books and they're. They know. They're asking everybody what's going on. And before you know it, they have a new plant. Oh, they discovered a new plant, and then it's used at a pharmaceutical company, and they make gazillions, and nothing gets back into the. Into the company. Nobody. Nobody of the indigenous people gets anything. So I really. Oh, that makes me. It makes me crazy thinking about that. But what can I do about it? You know, talking. Talking about it. That's what we can do so that it hopefully doesn't happen anymore and that we have.
That. I have respect for the people who taught me stuff, and that's what I say. You know, I thank the plants, but I also thank, for example, somebody like Mama or Donna Asunta. I met this woman when I was in Peru for.
[00:53:52] Unknown:
For a while.
[00:53:52] Unknown:
And I was in Cusco for a couple of months. And I sat there one day at a mountain, being really exhausted because it's just very, very difficult walking there. And I'm eating my sandwich, and there comes this woman with the whole big sort of basket full of herbs. And I'm like, oh, my God, what's that? And I'm thinking. I'm wanting to say something to her. So I open my little Quechua dictionary, and I say, how are you? And do you want to share my drink and my sandwich? Yes, she wants to. She sits next to me, starts talking, and before we know it, we do this, like, daily walks almost.
I wait for her. At a certain point, she goes to the market three times a week, and she teaches me the herbs. She teaches me her names, her Quechua names and what they do and why she collects them. And she has this hum the whole entire time. And I ask her, her, what is your hum? And she smiles, and she's got this mischievous look in her eyes. And then she doesn't want to talk to me about it, but then I say, is this the song of the plants? And she's like, yes. And, you know, so she taught me, what can I do about it? I give her my sandwich. I mean, what can I do? She gives me all her knowledge for free.
And. But she knows I'm not a pharmaceutical company, you know.
[00:55:13] Unknown:
Yes, she.
[00:55:15] Unknown:
We have this bond with each other, we. We giggle, we smile. I tell her a little bit in my very broken Quechua Spanish, what I do with the plants. And we giggle. So I. And I'm not making any of these concoctions and selling them for millions. So that's maybe on that level, we're still good. But do I feel like I want to give something more back to $. Yes. But how. You know and I know there's lots of people, like, for example, Dennis McKenna with the McKenna Academy, and there are lots of chakruna, and there's lots of people who are actually out there on the field and they're planting and replanting, educating. That is the positive thing. I want to sort of like, you know, talk about more because there's. Yeah, you can talk about all these negative things, and I just really don't. It doesn't really make me smile. So I like to look at people like Dennis McKenna, who make an effort. And I do share, yeah, with the love for that, for the land and the people with him for that. He's a lovely guy, by the way. I met him once, so it's just.
Fantastic guy. Yeah. So, yeah, these are pioneers.
[00:56:27] Unknown:
Perhaps this is how working with plants can be a subversive act, really. Because in the Western world, we have the tendency to look at everything that is not human and look at it in a very reductionist way. Like, it's rather recently only that we changed our mind about, like animals having feelings. I mean, everyone that has pets will not even doubt about it. It's. It's. Yeah, it's clear that they have feelings. And I think also if you work with plants in a direct way, like really going to the plant and, and using all your senses to make contact with the plants, there is no way you can deny that they are just a lot more than just their chemistry. And this is exactly what these pharma companies do. They go somewhere and they just. They're only interested in the chemistry of the plant.
But a plant is so much more. It's like seeing a human and only looking at, like, the bones or the muscles. It's. It's a very reductionist way. We are a lot more than just our bones and our muscles. And our bones and muscles are essential, of course, but there is still so much more.
[00:57:49] Unknown:
Yeah. Do you mean like the. The higher, spiritual consciousness of a plant, for example, that we. That we are starting looking into that? Is that what you mean?
[00:57:58] Unknown:
Yes, but I mean, I mean, even before that Even just the whole race. I. I mean, I can see that, when I teach my students, when I just ask them to, like, rub a leaf or go, with their nose to a flower and just smell it, I can really see something is happening inside side of them. Their facial expression changes. Their, Something is happening there. It's like, you know, like. Like a puppy comes to you and you. You know, something changes in you. And I. I found that so fascinating. And I. I remember, I remember talking to a person that worked for a pharmaceutical company. And I was visiting the botanical gardens here in Ghent with him, and suddenly he stopped and he said, wow, this plant. And I said, what do you mean? What is going on with this plant? He said, I have been researching the chemistry of this plant for two years, but I had never seen it in person.
And this, to me was, as a herbalist, was so crazy because I thought, wow, that's kind of special. That's like the opposite on how I work, you know, first you have the plant and you discover it and you find out where it lives and, you know, how it smells and everything. And then I will tell you how it works on a chemistry level and on a lot of other levels. Because it's not just a chemistry. But I found that really interesting. Yes.
[00:59:39] Unknown:
It almost sounds weird that you study something, but you have not actually seen it.
[00:59:45] Unknown:
And that would be the first thing that I would want to know. How does a plant look? I want to see it in person.
[00:59:53] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. And also, making contact with nature again is sometimes really difficult. I mean, get rid of your shoes. Walk on the grass. Feel what it's like with your bare feet in the grass or even in the forest. Get rid of your shoes. Just walk around, you know, that is just amazing that already you feel so many different. You feel so much suddenly, you know. And that's only, how to make contact with a tree. That sounds weird, but I have to sometimes teach people how to do that. You know, that they have couple of layers of energy and that you just. You can bounce into the energy field with your hands and you can feel that.
And once you're in there, you make contact. You introduce yourself. You know, you don't have to talk out loud, but you just. It's like you. You're talking from one being to another being. Now, you don't want to be rude and just sit on their lap immediately and go like, hey, I am here. No, you're not going to do that with a human. You properly introduce it. You extend Your hand or, you know, and that's what we, that's what I teach people to do with plants as well. You know, you extend your hand, it's like you coming from your heart. So actually what you're doing is you're coming from your heart and you're extending that love towards them and you have an interest.
It's like you're being a child again, you know, like a childlike playful thing. And soon as you discover that, oh, there's a whole world out there, no seriousness or really like all this knowledge they have to pump into you, like the brand has these constituents and these names and this da. it's just woo. It really tires me totally.
[01:01:41] Unknown:
And I think one of the things that I'm really trying to give my students is this, this feeling of being in awe, just being in awe for nature. And it's a childlike thing, but if you see how smart nature is and how. I mean, yes, there is no way it can be imitated. It's just so genius, really. And yeah, that's just an emotion that overwhelms me, overwhelms me time and time again just thinking, wow, this is so amazing. Really. It's so overwhelmingly amazing. I, I love it.
[01:02:22] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah, that's really true. And, and when you spend time really in the wild, in wild nature, like we were in Romania and that was the first time where there was, I was actually in a forest, a wild forest in Europe. You know, for me that was the first time and the experience I had there, it was just like totally overwhelming. I just, I had to sit down literally and just get, come back to myself with the beauty and the astounding greenness of the whole thing. It was just amazing. You don't find that here in the Netherlands. You know, we. I live close to a small forest.
I'm lucky with all trees, but people don't really care about it. You know, when, when a tree comes, becomes too big, the roots are coming out. Oh my God, we can't have that. We need to chop it or it's like you said, it's like an object. They come in and they treat it like an object, like a commodity. Almost like, oh, this is for wood. This is to make toilet paper and paper from, from a tree. I mean, come on. Hello. Can we not do this with something else? You know, we have hemp, we have bamboo, also plants. But we're not going to use a 50 year old tree to, you know, used as, as, as woods, chips or Something like that, that.
That really, really drives me sad. I don't know how I came to that subject, but suddenly I had this image.
[01:03:47] Unknown:
Yeah, no, but I can relate to that. Yes, totally. It's exactly. I. I totally understand why there's disregard.
[01:03:54] Unknown:
That some bodies have for nature is just epic. It's an epic fail. That's. Well, yeah, that's what I think. Yeah.
[01:04:04] Unknown:
Yes. And just also putting themselves outside of nature instead of realizing how much they are part of the ecosystem.
[01:04:12] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we are, we are. We are the same. You know, basically, just because we, we can talk and we have, you know, we can make money and all these kinds of things, doesn't mean that we are on top of the whole thing. No, absolutely not. So, no, I'm very humbled to sit next to a big oak tree with my back and lean into him and just sit there. You know, sometimes I'm so. I'm scared or I feel really wary or all over the place. And when in an instant I'm back to myself, I, feel happy in myself again. I can, you know, continue the work. And that's only by sitting with my back against the tree.
Come on. Yes.
[01:04:59] Unknown:
It's also about being in the moment and being in the here and the now. And we get so much distractions from everywhere that it's just this, this, this essence that, I don't know, a lot of people lost. This really disability just to be in the here and the now. And it's so important because that, that's all there really is, the here and the now. And it's just slipping away because we are, you know, on social media or diving into work or, you know, there are a lot of distractions in the world, but we have to stay close to ourselves as humans and what our essence as a human being is, I believe.
[01:05:40] Unknown:
Yeah. 100% there with you. And, yeah, I understood that fairly early in my life, and I'm very happy. I'm very fortunate that I understood this. yeah, that's how I feel. And nature is going to be with me forever. As long as I live here on this planet, in this body, I feel that is something that is my. The most love I have. I have a lot of love for my children, my grandchildren, my dog, my husband. But I have also a lot of room in my heart for all the plants, and the trees.
[01:06:18] Unknown:
Yeah. For more love in the world. The world needs that.
[01:06:22] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. 100%. Yeah.
[01:06:26] Unknown:
So, you have mentioned the witch hunt before. so one of the things that has been said to me quite a lot is, oh, you're lucky to live in this day and age or you would have been burned. So. And I have the impression it's not that uncommon for, for people who work with plants to hear that. Has it ever been said to you?
[01:06:46] Unknown:
Yeah, it has been said to me. Yeah.
[01:06:49] Unknown:
And how did it make you feel?
[01:06:52] Unknown:
firstly surprised. I was just like. And then I did not really understand why that would be a bad thing, being called a witch. So, you know, I know the Wicked Witch of the east and all that kind of stuff that they make witches. That word is very, it's not a good word for most people. They don't. You, you can say Madison woman or something else, but witch. Oh no, let's not do that. Let's not ruffle everybody's feathers by calling yourself a witch. So, yeah, yeah, people have said that. Not a lot, but I remember it once that actually, a child said that to me. Oh, you're not a witch. huh? Because that's scary.
So, yeah, that was really in my face. It was just like, okay. So I said, why is it scary for you? Do I look scary? But no, but when you're a witch, you are scary because you use magic to make people sick. All right. Yeah. So yeah, I had a. Not a long discussion with that child because the mum was also not really having edge. And yeah, that was, that was actually the one time that I thought, wow, this still lives in people's minds still. We read them stories like that where we condemn women who use herbal concoctions as witches. And they are bad because they use magic. Well, magic is everywhere, you know, it's just.
And it's not necessarily bad. There's good magic, there's bad magic. It's just. Yeah, so yeah, it's big. That word witch is not something I would use. Let me put it like that. If I'm not saying I'm a plant witch or anything like that. No, because I don't want to ruffle the feathers. Maybe, you know, maybe a bit strange, but. No, but you go into a direction with your discussion where you actually don't want to go. Exactly. Do you agree or what is your opinion on it?
[01:09:02] Unknown:
Yes. what bothers me is how lightly this is said to me. Like people say, oh, hahaha. And they say it with a little laughter after it. Just like, yeah, you would have been burned as a witch. Ha ha ha. And then I think it's not something funny really. It's a Genocide that had. Has been going on and why are you laughing about it? so for me, and also because to me it feels them saying that to me, saying like, hey, you're privileged to be doing this today. But then I think, yeah, but still it's not. We don't have the favors of the legal system. We don't have. So it's not like a privileged privilege.
If you want to be a herbalist in Belgium, there is still a lot of boundaries and a lot of challenges that you have to overcome. So yeah, it's. I really have very mixed feelings when somebody says that to me.
[01:10:10] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, I can understand. It's just. Yeah, I am, I'm. I usually don't go into a topic like that with somebody. Just I just leave it. But I have this. It's like a sort of like it grabs my heart.
[01:10:26] Unknown:
Right.
[01:10:27] Unknown:
And I can also feel like all the women who were burned at the stake, you know, and of course there are some men too, but mostly women. I mean, how must they have felt? And then all the people watching that. How did that go into a psyche of elders, of ancestors that we also had in our blood? I mean we have been there being inquisitive as an inquisition and also as somebody who's been burned. I believe that we've been through all these stages and then talking about it and laughing and that would make me feel really uncomfortable to be honest, because it's. But then I usually leave it because, you know, it's just a different state of mind when you laugh about stuff like that.
[01:11:12] Unknown:
Yes. And I think we have to focus on a positive.
[01:11:15] Unknown:
Yeah, absolutely. 100%.
[01:11:18] Unknown:
to make them grow and become bigger.
[01:11:20] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I avoid the word witch like the plague. Yeah.
[01:11:29] Unknown:
So. So what is your view on the future of the relationship between plants and people? How do you think it's going to evolve in the, in the upcoming years or maybe centuries? I don't know. How. How do you see this?
[01:11:49] Unknown:
Well, I, I see there's a lot of, A lot of people waking up to this path. If there's such a thing as you can wake up. But I feel like there's almost this energy, this intricate energy. at least that's what I feel. And there's more and more people coming on my path that never heard about the work that I do and that I can make enthusiastic. I can make them feel something. And as soon as you touch that. Yeah. Then you have to invite that in your world. So I see a very bright future. I'm very enthusiastic about that. There's more people like us out there doing podcasts or whatever it is that we do, writing books, giving workshops. We just need to go out there and just talk about what we are most passionate about, and then more people will come on board. we know that we are at a tipping point, you know, with the Earth. We've been there a long time.
There is so much climate change. There's so much stuff going on. People are slowly starting to understand that this is not something a scientist just, you know, said in a lab, but this is something real. And, yeah, you can start in your own little. In your own little space, you know, all. Or you can do it, just buy plants, put lots of plants in your house, and already that's very little, very tiny, and start looking after gardens and, you know, get all these tiles out of your gardens. You know, we have this thing that you now get some subsidies from the government if you just make grass and plants and a wild garden. And that is small, but it's a very good start. We have communal gardens everywhere.
You know, we have young people going in and they, they. They are interested suddenly in eating organic or biological or something like that. So it doesn't matter whether it's eating or doing a plantiata or being a herbalist or doing a concoction or just an infusion. Doesn't matter. As long as you start somewhere, you soon be inspired, and you want to learn more and, Learning more. Yeah. There's so much to be learned. There's so much to be taught. There's so much, so many things that the plants want to tell you, you know, so.
[01:14:17] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:14:17] Unknown:
Is that an answer to your question?
[01:14:20] Unknown:
Yes. So we just have to keep doing the work, I guess. And don't give up.
[01:14:25] Unknown:
Don't give up.
[01:14:26] Unknown:
No, no, no. And one of the things I really like about. I mean, I have been working in this field for more than 20 years, and what I love to see is just this ripple effect. How, you know, I have my students, but they don't live, like, alone on an island. So, they're sitting in the garden eating their stinging nettle soup, and they're having a chat with their neighbor, and they're saying, hey, do you want a cup of stinging nettle soup as well? And, you know, or they cook for their family, or they, they just, you know, somebody get. Gets a, a bite from an insect and they just put some plantain on it. And I love this ripple Effect. I really.
Yes. And this is. This is just lovely if you. If your work can do this in the world. Yes, I totally love that.
[01:15:19] Unknown:
Also, something else that made me think about my granddaughter. She has this innate ability to. To just talk to the plants. You know, whenever she could talk, she started talking to the plant, and she really has whole conversations with them with her in her head. And, I mean, what would happen if you didn't have a mother or a father who would say, stop doing that. That's ridiculous. Plant, don't talk. What would happen if you would teach her children to say, hey, what is this plant actually saying to you? Can you draw this or shall we? You know, instead of bringing that child down.
Don't be silly. You know, oh, you can't. You know that plants don't speak. Instead of having that attitude. Huh? Which is horrible. Instead of, you know, saying to that child, oh, wow, is this. Is this. I can't hear it. Can you talk to Ulma? What the plant says of what. You see, this is already a big step. If we teach our children that it's okay to talk to plants and to be in nature and, you know, to get dirty, to have dirt under your fingernails and stuff like that, that would be a great start. I. I think. Yeah.
[01:16:26] Unknown:
Yes. Thank you for mentioning this. I think that's a great tip for a lot of parents and grandparents. Yes. Yes. So, Anki, if people are interested in your work, where can they find more information? Like, do you have a website or a social media account or where they can they find the info that they need?
[01:16:45] Unknown:
Yeah, I have a website and it is, plantspeard. guru. That's the English one, and it's Plantspear Guru Punt Enel for the Dutch one. And there they can find stuff. I also, I have an Instagram page, and I sometimes load stuff up, but I'm not really good with these things. I'm.
[01:17:06] Unknown:
Which is fine.
[01:17:07] Unknown:
It is just. It's really exhausting, I think, to upload. I have a lot of, people who do this every day. And I'm going, like, how. How is this even a thing for you? I just don't understand how it works. So, yeah, I do have an Instagram page and a Facebook page, of course, and you can look me up. And, yeah, just if you're interested, just. Just book a free call with me for 30 minutes. We can chat about your passions and. And what it is that you would like to achieve is that if there is such a thing with the plants and then yeah, from there on, we got it.
[01:17:44] Unknown:
Yes. Lovely. And yes, thank you for saying that about the Instagram thing. sometimes I get, questions from people that say, oh, as a forager, I would love to see more what exactly it is that you're eating. And can. Can't you make pictures of what you're eating? And then I really think, well, I have two teenagers. How am I going to teach them, that the Instagram is not the most important thing in the world if I'm photographing everything that I'm eating? You know, it's just crazy. I don't want to do that. I just want to live by example and showing them that there are a lot of other interesting things in the world more interesting than Instagram. So. Yes.
[01:18:28] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:18:28] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:18:29] Unknown:
Yeah, I totally agree. I, have. How do you film a plant encounter? I don't know. I can make up a nice story, but it's not like that. You know, I have done some stuff where, you know, you. You hold your caresser leaf and you teach people how to make contact with the plant. That can be done, but I cannot really. I also don't want. I'm shy about it. I don't want to speak to everybody about these things that I encounter. My plan. Lots of things are very personal. Do not want to have my personal life continuously looked at, by. By other people. This is just. Yeah, I'm actually quite a private person on that behalf, so. And that's what you said to teenagers, if you're on Instagram the whole entire time.
No, that is not the example you want to set. M. Absolutely. It is very good to see what other people are doing. And, I mean, Rosemary Gladstone, star. But she has a whole team.
[01:19:27] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:19:27] Unknown:
I don't have a team. You know, I have my husband sometimes who comes with the camera and he films me, and then I. I have to giggle. And sometimes it's really bad because I just. I'm, I'm nervous and, you know, oh, what should I say? Oh, it's not good enough. All these things come up, which is ridiculous. So, no Instagram. I'm not a fan, but it is there. Okay. Okay. Ah.
[01:19:50] Unknown:
So, for. For who's listening? Just go to the website of Anki. It's very interesting. It's very beautiful. And, Anki, I want to thank you for this lovely conversation that we had. Really passionate conversation. I really loved talking to you and to you, Wilde, that has been listening. Thank you for being here. I hope to see you back with the next episode and in the meantime, keep nourishing your wild soul and keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye for now. A warm thank you for listening. Wildy Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media media.
I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there. But for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart way. Up.
Hi, Wildling. Hey.
[00:00:02] Unknown:
I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager, or through my website, wildplantforager.com.
[00:00:24] Unknown:
Thank you so much. Much.
[00:00:31] Unknown:
Welcome to Wild, the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2. 2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal. I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls.
Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and. And plants. And that's why, for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you're ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild. Welcome, Wildi, to this new episode of the Wild podcast. And today I'm here with Anki Paulsen of Plant Spirit Guru. She's a total plant nerd. So, Anki, tell us, how did your journey with the plants get started? Was it something that was already there in your childhood, or has it evolved more recently?
Tell us all about it.
[00:02:34] Unknown:
well, firstly, thank you very much, Liva, for inviting me, and I'm very excited to be on your podcast. Answer your question. has it started in my childhood? A little bit. I grew up in the south of the Netherlands, and, we didn't really have a garden because we lived on the first and the second floor of our house. But down beneath there was a sort of garden and the bakery of my grandfather. But in the back of the garden was a gigantic rowan. And that was the first really plant or tree. It's a tree that I actually make contact with, because I was kind of. I was an early child, and there was lots of times when I was alone in the house and I stared out of my window at this rowan tree and just started conversations like, you know, hello. Just really, like on the mundane level, like, you know how you talk to a plant and then the plant or the tree didn't really speak back to me. So.
So then when I grew up, I sort of forgot about this. I'm very. I'm very a practical person, but I'm also really high sensitive. So I'm always with one leg in a sort of like, yeah, very energetically sensitized world. And I noticed that, yeah, especially with people, I had lots of trouble that they would say stuff to me, but that would not. It would not be what they would sort of like and listen to other stuff in their body. More like on an energetic way. So I totally felt at home in the forest because there it was calm, it was just peaceful. It was just. There was just a different kind of energy. But because I live in the city, you know, I'm city girl, did not really have a lot of experience. I didn't have a grandmother that took me by the hand in the forest and showed me plants. So, no, definitely no hurt. Herbalist, tradition.
No such thing with herbal medicine in my family at all. This all became later where I sort of was really dissatisfied with the, life I was leading. I was very busy. I already had two children really early on. And we had a business, a software business. yeah. But then we moved to Australia. And in Australia, I felt this strange connection to the land. It was. There were certain places where you were not supposed to walk. And I felt that. I did not know actually what I felt in the beginning. But that's when I started exploring these feelings, like what happens with me with Anki, when I.
When I touch a plant or when I'm close to a plant. And then I started reading because I'm an avid reader, very inquisitive and very passionate about, you know, what people discover in these different worlds. So, yeah, started really basically with doing energetic healings and being interested in how all your auras work and. But always these plants were getting in. And I kept on feeling like, oh, my God, what. What is going on with me? I thought I was going a little bit crazy, actually, because I hear stuff, I see stuff, I smell stuff that I know is not really there. So, yeah, I started looking at indigenous people. What do they see? First thing that came to mind in Australia was these beautiful paintings where they would actually, Well, they paint plant songs. And then I've heard something about people in Peru, the Shipibo people who. Who sing plant songs. And that's where it all started. That's when I'm like, wow, I gotta get to know what's going on in the world. So traveling everywhere, we traveled extensively. I immersed myself into ethnobotany, read everything there was to read. Of course I found out about Pam Montgomery and I read her book, Plant Spirit Medicine. And that really opened everything up for me. From there on, I thought, a, I'm not crazy, B, there's more people like me. Yay. Because I didn't meet anybody, you know, I could not talk to anybody in the community. And the indigenous people in Australia, well, they were not keen on talking to foreign people.
That was just the case. It's, about 20 years ago when we moved. That has changed, luckily. So there are no stuff about bush food. And they really let you in and they, they want to get to know and teach you their knowledge. But when I was in Australia, that was certainly not the case. So I started going on my first trip to, Peru, because I actually want to experience it, you know. And. Yeah, the first connection I make with, the plants, which is totally something completely different, is a master plans. And that was of course ayahuasca. And she.
My first journey with her. When I sat in the jungle there. Yeah, that was when everything started. It was just. I saw all the colors of the plant weaving into each other. I saw the songs coming out of the curanderas, the people who have done very long standing apprenticeship, with these plants. And they were coming in and outside of bodies. It was. The whole room was with intricate patterns. And that all resonated to these songs. So that was Plant Song. That was my first time ever that I saw that. and my life ever has changed after that. It's never been the same. It's just.
That's what I experienced when I was a child. Not per se the same, but something similar happened to me. Sort of like a synesthetic experience that I could not explain. But there it was in the jungle. And these people, they have been doing this for years, for eons, you know. So this was nothing new. It was not something that I had discovered. And it was also something that I could passionately speak about to other people. So, yeah, I started apprenticing there. And, yeah, I went back to Australia. We moved since to Indonesia. I started talking to people over there, what they do with plants, how sacred certain plants are, what they do, what their medicine is.
Started speaking to elders and. Yeah, actually everywhere in the world, except in my own country, except in Europe, because I really. Yeah, of course we had all the herbs. But that was very on the mundane. It was like this plant was doing this and this and this for you. And I thought, I know this is really old now. This, this is the old tradition. Because now herbalists, what I believe, they don't see one plant for one ailment or, or disease. You know, it's bigger, and broader now. But back then it was still like, oh, this plant. And you learn how the plant looks and what it does, but you didn't learn anything on how to pick the plants.
You know, that you should talk to the plant before you actually go out there in the field and say, well, I'm going to. Is it okay for me to gather you because I have somebody with an illness, blah, blah, blah. And are you the right choice? all these things that I learned in the jungle was very normal. That they would go out in the jungle and they would have some quiet time. They walk around and then they see this plant and then they ask this plant for permission. And they leave an offer. It's not like you go in the woods and you snatch some plants and you just make a nice concoction and you think this is going to heal you or something like that. So I understood that this was certainly not the case. So when I was back in the Netherlands, I was determined to start dieting or do a dieta, with the plants that grew around me.
the first thing I came back, I was sitting on a bench under a big willow tree and I said, okay, what's going on? Why am I here? I was a bit lost because I felt ill in Peru. I had to come back to the Netherlands. I felt really lost and actually quite sad that, you know, I was so ill that walking was hard. And this gigantic willow tree just. It felt like she was embracing me, like with all this wisdom she had. And she just said to me, aki, it's okay. Don't worry. Just sit here. It's going to be fine. And from then on, I start crying. It's still really emotional for me now.
yeah, that was the start of dieting plants. So Willow was my first diet. So you know what a diet is? What they do?
[00:11:57] Unknown:
No. Please explain.
[00:11:59] Unknown:
Okay, so, a diet is like, it's like a marriage between you and the plants.
[00:12:06] Unknown:
All right?
[00:12:06] Unknown:
So you make a connection with each other and it's on both sides. And you promise to cherish this plant. You honor her or him. And it can be. It's almost like you have a contract with each other. And for that, she or he bestows you with healing, with sacred knowledge, with wisdom, and also with protection. So it's like this friendship bond that you have with each other. And it's a lifelong thing, you know, so all my plants in brackets, because they're not my plants. We all. I. When I. When there's something wrong with me, I. I ask plants, what. What can I do? What's going on? You know, have you seen something? Have I missed something? You know, have I done something? And. And so these. These bonds I have with plants, and it's. It's now about 22 or something. that is just. These are my friends, you know, it's not that I don't need human friends anymore, but these beings, they really do not let you down or they have no agenda with you. You know, they don't gossip or something like that.
So, yeah, that is. And how do you do this? How do I make a tincture, usually. And I, know one of the people I admire, Pam Montgomery, she calls them plant initiations. So that is actually a beautiful word because every time you drink, and she makes an elixir, I make a tincture on infusion. Every time you drink that, you ingest the plants, you also have to travel to the plant spirit realm. And you do this by a breathing technique or shamanic journeying with the drum or something, because you need a vehicle for these plants to get there. So it's not something like you go into the nature and you say, hi, I'm Anki, you know, and then you wait because that. Certainly for me, that doesn't happen. So it happens when I'm in a sort of like a state of. Yeah, an alternate state of consciousness, you know, a different. Where I'm in a different place.
And then communication is just very vivid. It's usually not true words. It's mostly through a feeling in my body, or it is just sometimes I see a symbol or there is a color, but. Or there is an explosion of energy somewhere in my body. And sometimes it's crying or it can be all sorts of things. It's the best thing that ever happened to me. It's this beautiful work. So. So yeah, this is. This is basically what I do. yeah, this is my job now, so to say.
[00:15:05] Unknown:
So beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. What. What a story. It's really interesting. So now you work with this master plan diet with people. And, how does it work exactly? Do these people work with just one plant or do they sometimes use different plants together or can you elaborate a little bit on how you are working with people and plants?
[00:15:32] Unknown:
yeah, I sure can. So usually sometimes I sit in a space with people and I see a plant coming up. And she tells me, or he tells me, this is the right plant for this person. But that's not always the case. Sometimes people come to me and they say, oh, I've got such a connection with the elm tree, or I've got a connection with, you know, the yarrow. And then we start with that plant. We. I do not work with a concoction of plants. I only work with one plant. Because I think when you move all these beings together, there's just a lot going on. And for people who are new to this path, I usually start with Mockworth. That's probably my favorite plant.
[00:16:17] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:16:18] Unknown:
Because she is really like, yeah, she's a sorceress, she's a magician, she is just all of the things you can imagine. And she's also sort of like a soft start she gives you. I mean some plants are a little bit tougher. They do not want to let you in in the beginning, if that makes sense. But mark words, she's welcoming, she's just waiting for, you know, so, and then we start first by establishing like how you are, in your, in your daily life. What do you do? What is your job? How are you, energetically. How do you move in yourself? Where are you at this moment and from there on. Yeah, it's very personal and individual. But I usually start by teaching the people that come to me to make a journey. Because that is really something you need to understand. for other people it's just dancing. You know, they move their body and then they are in this trance sort of thing, this altered state of consciousness and then they can make contact. Then I instruct them to make an altar for the plants.
And then we drink twice a day in the morning on your empty stomach. And yes, with a tincture. If you cannot stand alcohol, we have a different solution for that. But that's kind of tough. But I mean you're making a commitment. You know, it's just like you want to do this. It's not a wishy washy, like, oh, let's do this today and not do this tomorrow. So you drink first thing in the morning and before you go to bed. And in this time I want you to make a conscious effort to be in that space with the plant. And from there on, then, you know, I guide you through the whole process. And if stuff comes up, you know, and stuff will come up, you know, because it's. It can be very emotional for people.
and that's beautiful. I love that. And so we share. We share stuff with each other. And, you know, from there on, I sort of make a little. I make notes. Like, I want to see if there's people having the same experiences, you know, with a certain plant that they. The same stuff comes out. And this is really amazing when that happens. And every time I'm like, I had this too. Like, wow, you had this? Because I never talk to them about how this being looks or how this being feels, because I don't want to fill in their experience. You know, I am a very enthusiastic talker and.
But I always hold back. I'm just sit back. And I said, relax, you know, don't talk. Let them do that. And then you can see, at least that's what they say, that when there's something similar happens, like, oh, they describe the spirit of mugwort to me, and then I'm like, oh, yes, you've seen her. You know, so that is. That is wonderful. And yeah, we have some similar experience with. With quite a few people now. And, Yeah, there has to be some sort of a book in there. I don't know. I haven't really thought about it, but that, ah. How do you find this? Have you experienced this yourself?
[00:19:31] Unknown:
Well, I have some experience with, like, mugwort. and also, because I was wondering, have you ever worked with teasel, what we call gardenboll, in Dutch?
[00:19:41] Unknown:
No, it's.
[00:19:42] Unknown:
It's a very interesting plant. It's like a very special spiky plant.
[00:19:46] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:19:46] Unknown:
And it has something very distinct. So at the base of the leaves, it gathers water. And, what. Which is. What is really interesting about this is this water is also digesting insects, which is a really interesting mechanism. But however, I learned from an older herbalist, she told me, you have to dip your finger into this water at the base of the teasel plant and then rub your eyelids with it, and it will make you see more clearly. And I remember doing this and looking back. I actually think she meant the looking more clearly part in a more figurative way. Yes, exactly. Like in opening the third eye or something. because what happened after the very first time I did this, I started writing my first book. Really crazy.
Yes. So. And in general, I love Diesel. in general, it's not such a loved plant because of the spikes and because of the. But it's. I just Love it. I have a really deep relationship with it. I really love it. Yes. And, mugwort as well. It's just such a magical plant. And I love how you, how you say, how you speak about the plants, because I think this is one of the diseases of modern time in the Western world that, we see plants more as objects than as subjects, as characters, as persons. whereas in other parts of the world, it's very normal to see plants as persons, as characters.
[00:21:30] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. Yes.
[00:21:33] Unknown:
And one thing I was wondering. So if we think about plant spirits or spirit plants, we often think about hallucinogenic plants, but we tend to overlook how powerful plants like mugwort and rowan and yarrow and elderberry really are. And what do you think is the reason for this? Is it because we live in a very overwhelming and loud world and we have lost the art of listening with the heart? We. What are the reasons we are overlooking this?
[00:22:05] Unknown:
well, yeah, it's basically what you said. I think we are living a very loud, screaming world and everything needs to be bigger and more beautiful. I mean, it's sort of like, the Instagram experience. When you're on Instagram, you have to be like this. And, and if you do a, if you do a ceremony, because this. Then we're talking about ceremony with ayahuasca or with wachuma or with mushrooms. These, of course, these are plants. They are like, bang. They're opening everything up. You have no choice because they have the power to already take you there. In a sense that I have to. When I go and I do a diet or an initiation with mugwort, I have to use a vehicle. What. What I already said. So a lot of people only look at ayahuasca.
Because also it's a foreign thing and it's quite hip now. You know, when I first did ayahuasca, there was not a lot of people who heard about it did ayahuasca. That's not what I meant to say, but when I drank the brew, I believe that the ceremony around, the plants, that is very important that we have sort of lost of. At least let me speak for myself, that I lost that sense of sacredness and that sense of belonging and by drinking a plant. Well, actually two. It's a combination, of two plants in ayahuasca. I was there immediately. I didn't have to make so much effort. And that really gave the way just to discover all the plants that are teacher plants, but perhaps not master plants, because that's the distinction some people make. For me, that is not really the case because for me, all plants are master plants or teacher plants. So.
But some of them, yeah, they are. They have the hallucinogenic, compounds, and they bring you there immediately and they're open that third eye or whatever it is that you want to speak about, and you're immediately transported into that world. There is a sense of all the muck and all the noise you have in your head that's just diminished. And suddenly you have this heart and it's opening and it's pulsating and you feel the love of the people. You feel the love of the curanderas or the medicine. And for some people, that is the first time in years that they have experienced that and self love and all these beautiful things that humans really need to feel more, you know, because if you love yourself, you love your plants, you love your forest, you love your environment, and then we love each other and then, hooray, you know, we've done a good job. So if you need a plant or, or a cacti or a mushroom to do that initially, to get to bring you there, then, yes, please.
But then do it also in a way that is, you know, that is the right way. You know, don't go with somebody on the. In a. Somewhere in an attic in Amsterdam, drinking with somebody who has no knowledge, who just, you know, has the medicine and brew and blah, blah and just bought it somewhere. Don't do that because that's. These plants are sacred beings. They need a reverence. They are beautiful. They're also rare. You know, it's not something that you can just buy at the Del Airs or at the Albert Hein, you know, yeah. Be careful who you drink with, who you choose to start this journey. And the most important things. Are you willing to change what you are inside, what you have inside? Are you willing to make these changes?
Otherwise, please don't go there because it's. This is. This is big work. This is. It's huge. It's not.
[00:26:11] Unknown:
Thank you for pointing that out, because what I see now happening sometimes is, people hop from one hallucinogenic plant to another and they just. They don't do the work, if you know what I mean. Yes.
[00:26:26] Unknown:
It makes me feel really sad, not only for the plants, but also for the whole environment, for everything. If you don't know what you're doing and you hop, it's like a spiritual or really hopping. You go from one thing to another, but nothing really sticks, nothing really Helps and why that is, that doesn't really matter, but it makes me feel sad. Just stick to one thing. And of course, starting doing a dieta with a plant that just grows in your backyard. I mean, like the dandelion for example. That is such a powerful plant. It's one of my favorites, if I have favorites. Sorry.
And the nettle, you know, the nettle is just like your plant. When you touch it, you get a burn. But why do you get this burn? And try to understand how this plant works for you and what you will gain in brackets when you ingest these plants for six weeks. And you are very intimate with these plants. I mean, what will you get out of it, you know? Wow. Think about that.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
Yeah, it's interesting to see how, we see spikes and thorns, et cetera, as of course it's defense of the plants. And we tend to see it as something we have to stay away from. But it also means protection. And this is very interesting. I think if you look at a plant that way, and I think stinging nettles, first message is pay attention.
[00:28:07] Unknown:
Yeah, Pay attention and be still. Before you actually, you know, go out there with your mind and blah, blah, blah, blah, just be still what is actually happening and take a moment, pause. That is actually the word better than be still. Just pause. And that is what a lot of plants are teaching, have taught me, you know, because, you know, I also have adhd, you know, if you want to put a label on it. So I'm very much out there, you know, But I can also be very introverted. And the plants taught me that it's both okay that I can do all these things at the same time, but I can still listen to my inner voice.
And that is something that is just that money can't buy, you know.
[00:28:56] Unknown:
Yes. And thank you for sharing that about the ADHD spectrum because, well, as a mother of a neurodiverse family, I can really appreciate that you're so open about it. And sometimes I wonder if the neurodiverse people are really the canaries in the coal mine when it comes to pointing out how far we have come from nature, how big that distance has become and how that is really hurtful for the human soul.
[00:29:28] Unknown:
So yes, absolutely, 100% with you. I mean, with a bit of plant, you talk spirit to spirit. That's basically it. And that's what at least I. I had forgotten. I neglected my spirit completely. And then I got so hyperactive and hypersensitive. Hyper at everything that I was basically lost, felt depressed, felt, you know, no self worth, all these things. And it all came because I lost contact with my own spirit. I did not have any understanding or any feeling where my spirit had gone. It was sort of like it was out of my body. I, I could see myself literally doing all these crazy things. And then, there was Anki sitting somewhere else. So plants brought me back into my body that it was okay to be in my body because I think that's, that's what I feel.
With a lot of clients who have adhd, they're not really in their body, they are somewhere else. And either they have experienced a trauma in their childhood or whatever, it doesn't matter. Sometimes I think I was born like that, you know, something that the mother experienced when, you know, that my mother experienced when she was pregnant with me. I don't know, it doesn't really matter. You don't have to go back and talk about all these traumas. It's more about the moment you feel that. What are you going to do about it and who am I going to talk to?
To a person, you know. No, I'm going to talk to a plant because they are not biased. That's my motto is let the plant be your guru. You know, it's not that I don't trust humans, but they usually have their own agenda or they're biased or they are scared of something that brings up in themselves. And a plant doesn't have that. No, no.
[00:31:23] Unknown:
Yes. And I think, I think the wisdom that a plant brings is also timeless because they are such old organisms. I mean, a lot of plants were already here even before humankind started. So in a way they are our ancestors. And I really like that. And I personally, I could feel that, after my parents died this became even more important to me. Because, you know, your parents are very often the people you turn to if you have like a dilemma in your life of if you want, or if you want some advice from them. and they weren't there anymore. So I just went to the plants and asked them and this became more and more valuable to me.
[00:32:10] Unknown:
Yeah, well, I'm glad you discovered that. But can you imagine if you have not discovered that?
[00:32:16] Unknown:
Then you feel lost.
[00:32:18] Unknown:
Exactly. Well, that's sort of how I felt. I mean, you know, I lost my father when Very, very early on as well. And yeah, I felt lost. So, you know, even when he was sick, I was talking to a rowan tree who was not saying anything back. But the fact That I had some sort of a friend there, a trusted companion who would always stand there. And especially in summer, you know, when the berries came, these red berries, and it was just so magnificent that some being would already be there for so long. And we have just. We're just a bleep, you know, so all these plants are our elders. They are our ancestors. Because we have plants, we are here because literally they are the oxygen that we breathe in. Without trees, without plants, we might as well just lie down on our stone because there's no.
[00:33:12] Unknown:
There is no human life, without the plants.
[00:33:14] Unknown:
It's.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. Right. Yes.
[00:33:17] Unknown:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. So another thing I was. I was really wanting to talk about, which I'm really passionate about, is that I found out that we have in Europe, people who are called Galdor Singers. Have you ever heard about these people?
[00:33:33] Unknown:
No. No.
[00:33:35] Unknown:
Okay. Well, kaldor is an old, An old Germanic word from Galdras, and it means already song. So I'm calling them Galdor Singers, which is actually Sing singers. This is a bit of a strange word. But these were, I think usually women, and they would go out there and gather plants, and they had this whole, whole scheme that they would do. And it's actually somebody documented that, a priest, I think, somewhere in the 10th century in a document called Lucknunga. Something difficult, right? Yes, yes, yes. And we have, this one spell or charm, which is called the Nine Herbs Charm. I'm sure you've heard about that. And there is actually a description of how you make that concoction and how you actually gather the plants. And they said, we sing a song over the plants.
So when I read that, I was just like, yes, we've got people here, too, who used to do that. You know, we're not. We don't have to go to Peru or to any other country. We have. We have people in Europe now. Of course, we had the Inquisition and all these medicine women, the witches, the lovely witches were. A lot of them were banned. And we. Yeah, we don't have a lot of that knowledge anymore, but it's still there. So I. I delve into this Nine Herbs charm and read everything online, what there was to find, and started thinking, oh, I'm going to diet all these plants to see what they had to say to me. And I did them. Except for the crab apple. I did not really do that. But, yeah, they had a really big message for me, and it was initially about the communication that they were working together in this south. They make. Which was also used for Elfish magic, to treat Elfish magic and then to treat all the diseases of the devil.
I'm going like, whoa, what is this thing? So, but it was the way that the galo singer would administer it. So she would sing to gather the plaz. She would sing when she would make the salve. She would sing when she would administer it over the patients. That is amazing. I mean, hello. You know. So, yeah, so that's what I started doing. So now I'm singing plant songs before I'm gathering some of them. They have been given to me by some plants. Nettle has a beautiful plant song. And she. She lets me use it when I. When I, you know, when I. When I describe, or prescribe a, ah, diet for a client. And we sing the song and it's just different. There's a whole different, yeah.
Energy to that. Suddenly just. It's hard to explain in words because it's not necessarily words that the plant give me. so, yeah, that is another component I found, in European, literature, basically from the 10th century. And then, of course, we got Hildegard von Bingen, my power woman, which, of course, it has a very Christian source because, you know, she was an abbess and she had to do this because otherwise she would also have been burned. It's a bit of a puzzle why she could do this, actually, for me, because they say that she also treated the pope and a lot of cardinals, and she was very high esteem. And she had. They said to her that she was allowed to speak in the plants in such a way like they were holy beings.
So she is also a source of. Yeah, her spiritual, remedies are just amazing. Hildegard from Benedict. Do you like her? Are you a friend?
[00:37:25] Unknown:
And I think also she has been lucky in a way that she was able to do this. I think if she would have been born like 500 years later, she would have gotten into serious trouble. yes. And I also like that you mentioned the songs, because singing is also such an important way to open up the heart and to make this connection. So that really makes sense to me.
[00:37:50] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, it does. It does. Singing is really. Yeah. Something. Something happens in you when you sing, you know, And I don't. I do not necessarily sing beautiful or something. You know, I'm not really, wanting to record an album or something like that. God, no. But it's just sometimes it's a whistle or just a tone or just like M or something crazy that sits in the back of your Throat that comes out. And yeah, there something. The energy clears up and it gets really, really sort of. How can I say that? There's this. I can't find a word for that. But there's this different quality in the air. It's like it's purification or something like that of the energy. And it's like you have a clearer path in where you go. I mean, of course, babies, they get some lullabies. When you are lucky as a baby, your mom sings you a lullaby. I mean, ah, ah. And then there's this, this. This patting on the back so there's a rhythm. There's the drum.
And of course, the drum is really important. Or, you know, the rattle, you know, that is the thing. So sound. And yeah, that is a really important part of.
[00:39:12] Unknown:
Of.
[00:39:12] Unknown:
Of plant spirit medicine, at least for me. Yeah.
[00:39:16] Unknown:
Yes, yes. So you have lived in both Australia and the Netherlands. You. You're currently living in the Netherlands, I think.
[00:39:24] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:39:24] Unknown:
And you're working international.
[00:39:26] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:27] Unknown:
so what are the differences, you notice when it comes to general basic plant knowledge, like, Well, something I noticed myself, is that usually the countries with far more remote areas, that's where the plant knowledge is still well intact or not dying out, as in the more urbanized spaces. so what is your experience with that?
[00:39:59] Unknown:
I think most of my clients, they live in urban spaces. They live in the city because they have really a need to connect with nature. it's hard for them. I mean, the Netherlands, we don't have really big cities, but if you live in London or in Paris, you know, in the really big cities, yeah, it's. It's hard for you to connect. You have a park, but that's not wild nature. People who live in the wild and wild nature. Yeah, they don't usually come to me because they already have that connection. You know, I can. They teach me. You know, I'm so happy to talk to them because I didn't have that background, you know, So I, I love speaking to people who. Who are fortunate to live on the big lands somewhere in Appalachia or, you know, that.
Because that's. That's a whole different setting. Saturn setting is very important in, in this thing. And yeah, of course, you have more knowledge when you live in the wild than you live in Amsterdam. you know, on the. On the third floor. Yeah. Yeah. Was that your question? I'm sorry.
[00:41:05] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was also wondering if the. If you notice a, difference between, different countries when it comes to Opening up to the plant spirits?
[00:41:17] Unknown:
no, not really.
[00:41:18] Unknown:
All right.
[00:41:19] Unknown:
I think it's a universal thing. As soon as you find somebody who is interested, then it doesn't matter where they come from, all age or gender. No, not really. I have a lot of, male clients as well, you know, who initially, some of them are a little bit embarrassed. But then as soon as I say, well, you know, disregard all these feelings that you now have, Just do this for yourself. You don't have to talk to anybody in the beginning. If you are, you know, what are they going to say? no, I think for everybody, as soon as you open to this path, you did your first diet, dieta. Or you know, or you have another experience, then that's it. You pretty much sucked in.
[00:42:06] Unknown:
Into this world, you know, I love that. I love how it's a universal thing, really.
[00:42:12] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah.
[00:42:13] Unknown:
Wow. So, one of the other things I was. I was wondering, about. So in. In Belgium, and the Netherlands, if I compare the two, when it comes to herbs and herbalism, also foraging, I can see quite some differences, because I have quite some students from the Netherlands. And of course, they tell me, all kinds of things. And what I find mind blowing is that if people go to their doctor with, let's say, a throat infection or a bladder infection or even just a common cold, usually the doctor will prescribe medication to them.
[00:42:56] Unknown:
Uh-huh.
[00:42:57] Unknown:
And in the case of a bladder infection or a throat infection, the first thing was. Will always be antibiotics in the majority of the cases. And then my students tell me, oh, if we go to the doctor in the Netherlands, like with a throat infection, usually, m. We'll get the message, well, just drink some sage tea, some ginger tea. if we have a bladder infection, we'll try some unsweetened cranberry juice. and then later on, when the herbs really are not sufficiently working, or when it's. It's really a major case of a bladder infection, then they will scribe antibiotics, which we know, of course, have a lot more side effects just on the intestinal flora alone. So, yes. How is this possible? We are geographically so close, Belgium and the Netherlands, and it's such a different approach.
I'm really. I'm just so surprised to find out about this.
[00:43:57] Unknown:
well, I can tell you I've got one client, or she's actually an apprentice of me, and she nearly finishing her PhD. and she's a doctor, and she is very much into herbal medicine. So maybe it's a newer Generation who are more open to prescribing, as you said, a sage, concoction or you know, something with cranberry for a Black Swan fraction. They are way more open to because it also has to do with lifestyle. Here in the Netherlands, it's now that your gp, your doctor is saying to you, well, how much do you exercise? How much do you drink? All these, all these things that's starting really now to, yeah, to be more important information for people that they first ask about their lifestyle and then they want to prescribe something that's milder instead of going for the antibiotics. Because we all don't, we all know that it doesn't really work. We become sort of immune from, for these, you know, for these medicines. So yeah, I, I, I don't know about Belgium. I lived in Bruges for a short time, very long ago and, but I rarely see a doctor. So I don't really necessarily believe that they can understand what's going on with, with me because they see me what, five minutes?
And, and, and I'm not saying, you know, that is what they want to do. I think they're actually, no, I think.
[00:45:25] Unknown:
Most doctors really would love to take more time for patients.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. I think that's why lots of people become doctors because they want to listen to people and they want to, I.
[00:45:34] Unknown:
Want to help people.
[00:45:36] Unknown:
Yeah. But yeah, I think it has to do with a different look on now. What is dis ease? What are we doing in society? A lot of people are very stressed nowadays. Maybe so many people have an underlying illness or something. But it's all, it starts in the mind. I mean it's like that's what I love about Ayurveda in India. You know, they start, they have these seven stages of disease, of illness and it starts with dis ease in the mind usually. So, you know, and I'm not saying if you have a bladder infection that that is all in the mind first, but maybe it is because we now know we can connect grief with lung, with asthma and all, ah, with lung diseases and sorrow, with stuff in the liver. So there is a whole lot of stuff going on. And of course plants, they know these things.
The first thing she lets me feel is that I had some unresolved grief. One of the plants and yarrow, she said, oh, you have something stuck there. And I didn't resolve any, just a little bit of grief with my, for my father. And that came up when I was drinking her. Like massive. And that of course cured all sorts of other things. So there is something to say that when you. Yeah. When you're in contact with the deeper knowledge of plants, that there are connections, everything is connected to each other, in that sense. And yes, I'm hoping that GPs and doctors would start prescribing, herbs. but then we also have to ask ourselves, how are they collected?
Is there somebody singing over the herbs before? You know, not to sound, a bit ridiculous, but how is that process going? I know if you, for example, go to Vileda, I trust Willeda, you know what they do. I've been in their Apothec, I've been to their factory. I love these people. I know that they're doing the right thing. But a lot of herbal concoctions that you can buy are just made in a factory. Nobody has been singing to the plants. Nobody has been asking the plants for permission. Nobody has been giving an offer back. You know, it's reciprocity. Nobody has been doing that. So are these plants really healing? I don't know.
Have they lost their, their capabilities? You know, I don't know if that's true, but that's what I feel that could be the case.
[00:48:13] Unknown:
That's an interesting question. Yes. And I, I just want to get back to, to the doctors because I, think one, big gap in Belgium is that if you go to the university to become a doctor, there is no plant knowledge in any of the studies. so, this is really. Doctors don't learn about them. So when they're practicing with their patients, they just don't know anything about the herbs. And this is a bit frustrating because, for some people, they want to use medicinal herbs and, they take medication. And then every source will tell them, please, if you're taking medication, consult your doctor first before taking any kind of herbs. And then they consult their doctors, and their doctors just don't know anything about it. So, I think it's a frustration on both sides, the patient and the doctor.
[00:49:12] Unknown:
And,
[00:49:13] Unknown:
But I love how it's starting to grow. There's this herbal thing, in doctor context in the Netherlands, because I think it makes herbal medicine more accessible to the people. Because for some people, it makes a difference if the doctor says so. You know, it's a different thing. It's on a different level. So I think it's a good case for herbs that this happens. and also some of my students even move to the Netherlands because the legal framework is more, Much more, kind when it comes to giving Herbal consultations or, making and selling your own herbal products.
And yes, I think in Belgium, there's still a long road to go there. But I can also see it happening. And I, I think it's because we are a growing number of herbalists here and so we can just put a little bit more pressure on the whole legal system because the change really comes from, from, you know, the grassroots, the underground movements. And yes, usually the legal things change because the situation changes and people change the situation. So it's interesting to see what's happening there in Belgium and it's going slowly. But I can, I can, yeah, I can really see some things happening or I can see some people working in a more, in a corporation, so that, you know, for instance, they have to invest in expensive infrastructure when it comes to making their own herbal products. But then, you know, if they have a corporation, they can pay for it together. And that's where it becomes really interesting, I think. Yes.
[00:51:01] Unknown:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, maybe you could be a pioneer in that, you know, teaching doctors, like making like a workshop for last year's students. they have a lot of workload or. But they would be interested to come and sit with you in a workshop and where you can just talk to them about like, simple, ways of relieving certain, ah, ailments. I mean, maybe if that would be something that they could, you know, be interested in, that could make things rolling, you know.
[00:51:32] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:51:33] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:51:33] Unknown:
Well, the interesting thing in Belgium is that the pharmacists, they do get a lot of, well, not a lot of, but they do get some basic plant skills in their education and but for doctors it's generally not allowed to follow these classes. So it's kind of a strange thing. And I can understand that doctors have to learn a lot already. I mean, because there is so much scientific research about the human body and how it works and about medication and But really this would be such an interest, interesting skill for doctors to learn. Yes, I agree.
[00:52:12] Unknown:
Yeah, there's lots of stuff going on. And of course most medication are derived from plants, but then they are so, you know, there's so, so much dysfunction going on, with them. Can't really explain that very well. But it's not a pure thing anymore. And usually also they stole of course, a lot of knowledge from the Amazon Moist. Medication is derived from plants in the Amazon. And you know, there were indigenous people. And this is maybe a whole different topic. But I really feel that, you know, why are a lot of indigenous people don't want to share their knowledge with white people because of the experience they had.
[00:52:52] Unknown:
They're being robbed. They're really literally being robbed. And they are not honored and respected for their knowledge and wisdom. Yes.
[00:53:01] Unknown:
And still not. It's still going on, you know, as we speak. They're coming in with their books and they're. They know. They're asking everybody what's going on. And before you know it, they have a new plant. Oh, they discovered a new plant, and then it's used at a pharmaceutical company, and they make gazillions, and nothing gets back into the. Into the company. Nobody. Nobody of the indigenous people gets anything. So I really. Oh, that makes me. It makes me crazy thinking about that. But what can I do about it? You know, talking. Talking about it. That's what we can do so that it hopefully doesn't happen anymore and that we have.
That. I have respect for the people who taught me stuff, and that's what I say. You know, I thank the plants, but I also thank, for example, somebody like Mama or Donna Asunta. I met this woman when I was in Peru for.
[00:53:52] Unknown:
For a while.
[00:53:52] Unknown:
And I was in Cusco for a couple of months. And I sat there one day at a mountain, being really exhausted because it's just very, very difficult walking there. And I'm eating my sandwich, and there comes this woman with the whole big sort of basket full of herbs. And I'm like, oh, my God, what's that? And I'm thinking. I'm wanting to say something to her. So I open my little Quechua dictionary, and I say, how are you? And do you want to share my drink and my sandwich? Yes, she wants to. She sits next to me, starts talking, and before we know it, we do this, like, daily walks almost.
I wait for her. At a certain point, she goes to the market three times a week, and she teaches me the herbs. She teaches me her names, her Quechua names and what they do and why she collects them. And she has this hum the whole entire time. And I ask her, her, what is your hum? And she smiles, and she's got this mischievous look in her eyes. And then she doesn't want to talk to me about it, but then I say, is this the song of the plants? And she's like, yes. And, you know, so she taught me, what can I do about it? I give her my sandwich. I mean, what can I do? She gives me all her knowledge for free.
And. But she knows I'm not a pharmaceutical company, you know.
[00:55:13] Unknown:
Yes, she.
[00:55:15] Unknown:
We have this bond with each other, we. We giggle, we smile. I tell her a little bit in my very broken Quechua Spanish, what I do with the plants. And we giggle. So I. And I'm not making any of these concoctions and selling them for millions. So that's maybe on that level, we're still good. But do I feel like I want to give something more back to $. Yes. But how. You know and I know there's lots of people, like, for example, Dennis McKenna with the McKenna Academy, and there are lots of chakruna, and there's lots of people who are actually out there on the field and they're planting and replanting, educating. That is the positive thing. I want to sort of like, you know, talk about more because there's. Yeah, you can talk about all these negative things, and I just really don't. It doesn't really make me smile. So I like to look at people like Dennis McKenna, who make an effort. And I do share, yeah, with the love for that, for the land and the people with him for that. He's a lovely guy, by the way. I met him once, so it's just.
Fantastic guy. Yeah. So, yeah, these are pioneers.
[00:56:27] Unknown:
Perhaps this is how working with plants can be a subversive act, really. Because in the Western world, we have the tendency to look at everything that is not human and look at it in a very reductionist way. Like, it's rather recently only that we changed our mind about, like animals having feelings. I mean, everyone that has pets will not even doubt about it. It's. It's. Yeah, it's clear that they have feelings. And I think also if you work with plants in a direct way, like really going to the plant and, and using all your senses to make contact with the plants, there is no way you can deny that they are just a lot more than just their chemistry. And this is exactly what these pharma companies do. They go somewhere and they just. They're only interested in the chemistry of the plant.
But a plant is so much more. It's like seeing a human and only looking at, like, the bones or the muscles. It's. It's a very reductionist way. We are a lot more than just our bones and our muscles. And our bones and muscles are essential, of course, but there is still so much more.
[00:57:49] Unknown:
Yeah. Do you mean like the. The higher, spiritual consciousness of a plant, for example, that we. That we are starting looking into that? Is that what you mean?
[00:57:58] Unknown:
Yes, but I mean, I mean, even before that Even just the whole race. I. I mean, I can see that, when I teach my students, when I just ask them to, like, rub a leaf or go, with their nose to a flower and just smell it, I can really see something is happening inside side of them. Their facial expression changes. Their, Something is happening there. It's like, you know, like. Like a puppy comes to you and you. You know, something changes in you. And I. I found that so fascinating. And I. I remember, I remember talking to a person that worked for a pharmaceutical company. And I was visiting the botanical gardens here in Ghent with him, and suddenly he stopped and he said, wow, this plant. And I said, what do you mean? What is going on with this plant? He said, I have been researching the chemistry of this plant for two years, but I had never seen it in person.
And this, to me was, as a herbalist, was so crazy because I thought, wow, that's kind of special. That's like the opposite on how I work, you know, first you have the plant and you discover it and you find out where it lives and, you know, how it smells and everything. And then I will tell you how it works on a chemistry level and on a lot of other levels. Because it's not just a chemistry. But I found that really interesting. Yes.
[00:59:39] Unknown:
It almost sounds weird that you study something, but you have not actually seen it.
[00:59:45] Unknown:
And that would be the first thing that I would want to know. How does a plant look? I want to see it in person.
[00:59:53] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. And also, making contact with nature again is sometimes really difficult. I mean, get rid of your shoes. Walk on the grass. Feel what it's like with your bare feet in the grass or even in the forest. Get rid of your shoes. Just walk around, you know, that is just amazing that already you feel so many different. You feel so much suddenly, you know. And that's only, how to make contact with a tree. That sounds weird, but I have to sometimes teach people how to do that. You know, that they have couple of layers of energy and that you just. You can bounce into the energy field with your hands and you can feel that.
And once you're in there, you make contact. You introduce yourself. You know, you don't have to talk out loud, but you just. It's like you. You're talking from one being to another being. Now, you don't want to be rude and just sit on their lap immediately and go like, hey, I am here. No, you're not going to do that with a human. You properly introduce it. You extend Your hand or, you know, and that's what we, that's what I teach people to do with plants as well. You know, you extend your hand, it's like you coming from your heart. So actually what you're doing is you're coming from your heart and you're extending that love towards them and you have an interest.
It's like you're being a child again, you know, like a childlike playful thing. And soon as you discover that, oh, there's a whole world out there, no seriousness or really like all this knowledge they have to pump into you, like the brand has these constituents and these names and this da. it's just woo. It really tires me totally.
[01:01:41] Unknown:
And I think one of the things that I'm really trying to give my students is this, this feeling of being in awe, just being in awe for nature. And it's a childlike thing, but if you see how smart nature is and how. I mean, yes, there is no way it can be imitated. It's just so genius, really. And yeah, that's just an emotion that overwhelms me, overwhelms me time and time again just thinking, wow, this is so amazing. Really. It's so overwhelmingly amazing. I, I love it.
[01:02:22] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah, that's really true. And, and when you spend time really in the wild, in wild nature, like we were in Romania and that was the first time where there was, I was actually in a forest, a wild forest in Europe. You know, for me that was the first time and the experience I had there, it was just like totally overwhelming. I just, I had to sit down literally and just get, come back to myself with the beauty and the astounding greenness of the whole thing. It was just amazing. You don't find that here in the Netherlands. You know, we. I live close to a small forest.
I'm lucky with all trees, but people don't really care about it. You know, when, when a tree comes, becomes too big, the roots are coming out. Oh my God, we can't have that. We need to chop it or it's like you said, it's like an object. They come in and they treat it like an object, like a commodity. Almost like, oh, this is for wood. This is to make toilet paper and paper from, from a tree. I mean, come on. Hello. Can we not do this with something else? You know, we have hemp, we have bamboo, also plants. But we're not going to use a 50 year old tree to, you know, used as, as, as woods, chips or Something like that, that.
That really, really drives me sad. I don't know how I came to that subject, but suddenly I had this image.
[01:03:47] Unknown:
Yeah, no, but I can relate to that. Yes, totally. It's exactly. I. I totally understand why there's disregard.
[01:03:54] Unknown:
That some bodies have for nature is just epic. It's an epic fail. That's. Well, yeah, that's what I think. Yeah.
[01:04:04] Unknown:
Yes. And just also putting themselves outside of nature instead of realizing how much they are part of the ecosystem.
[01:04:12] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we are, we are. We are the same. You know, basically, just because we, we can talk and we have, you know, we can make money and all these kinds of things, doesn't mean that we are on top of the whole thing. No, absolutely not. So, no, I'm very humbled to sit next to a big oak tree with my back and lean into him and just sit there. You know, sometimes I'm so. I'm scared or I feel really wary or all over the place. And when in an instant I'm back to myself, I, feel happy in myself again. I can, you know, continue the work. And that's only by sitting with my back against the tree.
Come on. Yes.
[01:04:59] Unknown:
It's also about being in the moment and being in the here and the now. And we get so much distractions from everywhere that it's just this, this, this essence that, I don't know, a lot of people lost. This really disability just to be in the here and the now. And it's so important because that, that's all there really is, the here and the now. And it's just slipping away because we are, you know, on social media or diving into work or, you know, there are a lot of distractions in the world, but we have to stay close to ourselves as humans and what our essence as a human being is, I believe.
[01:05:40] Unknown:
Yeah. 100% there with you. And, yeah, I understood that fairly early in my life, and I'm very happy. I'm very fortunate that I understood this. yeah, that's how I feel. And nature is going to be with me forever. As long as I live here on this planet, in this body, I feel that is something that is my. The most love I have. I have a lot of love for my children, my grandchildren, my dog, my husband. But I have also a lot of room in my heart for all the plants, and the trees.
[01:06:18] Unknown:
Yeah. For more love in the world. The world needs that.
[01:06:22] Unknown:
Yes, absolutely. 100%. Yeah.
[01:06:26] Unknown:
So, you have mentioned the witch hunt before. so one of the things that has been said to me quite a lot is, oh, you're lucky to live in this day and age or you would have been burned. So. And I have the impression it's not that uncommon for, for people who work with plants to hear that. Has it ever been said to you?
[01:06:46] Unknown:
Yeah, it has been said to me. Yeah.
[01:06:49] Unknown:
And how did it make you feel?
[01:06:52] Unknown:
firstly surprised. I was just like. And then I did not really understand why that would be a bad thing, being called a witch. So, you know, I know the Wicked Witch of the east and all that kind of stuff that they make witches. That word is very, it's not a good word for most people. They don't. You, you can say Madison woman or something else, but witch. Oh no, let's not do that. Let's not ruffle everybody's feathers by calling yourself a witch. So, yeah, yeah, people have said that. Not a lot, but I remember it once that actually, a child said that to me. Oh, you're not a witch. huh? Because that's scary.
So, yeah, that was really in my face. It was just like, okay. So I said, why is it scary for you? Do I look scary? But no, but when you're a witch, you are scary because you use magic to make people sick. All right. Yeah. So yeah, I had a. Not a long discussion with that child because the mum was also not really having edge. And yeah, that was, that was actually the one time that I thought, wow, this still lives in people's minds still. We read them stories like that where we condemn women who use herbal concoctions as witches. And they are bad because they use magic. Well, magic is everywhere, you know, it's just.
And it's not necessarily bad. There's good magic, there's bad magic. It's just. Yeah, so yeah, it's big. That word witch is not something I would use. Let me put it like that. If I'm not saying I'm a plant witch or anything like that. No, because I don't want to ruffle the feathers. Maybe, you know, maybe a bit strange, but. No, but you go into a direction with your discussion where you actually don't want to go. Exactly. Do you agree or what is your opinion on it?
[01:09:02] Unknown:
Yes. what bothers me is how lightly this is said to me. Like people say, oh, hahaha. And they say it with a little laughter after it. Just like, yeah, you would have been burned as a witch. Ha ha ha. And then I think it's not something funny really. It's a Genocide that had. Has been going on and why are you laughing about it? so for me, and also because to me it feels them saying that to me, saying like, hey, you're privileged to be doing this today. But then I think, yeah, but still it's not. We don't have the favors of the legal system. We don't have. So it's not like a privileged privilege.
If you want to be a herbalist in Belgium, there is still a lot of boundaries and a lot of challenges that you have to overcome. So yeah, it's. I really have very mixed feelings when somebody says that to me.
[01:10:10] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, I can understand. It's just. Yeah, I am, I'm. I usually don't go into a topic like that with somebody. Just I just leave it. But I have this. It's like a sort of like it grabs my heart.
[01:10:26] Unknown:
Right.
[01:10:27] Unknown:
And I can also feel like all the women who were burned at the stake, you know, and of course there are some men too, but mostly women. I mean, how must they have felt? And then all the people watching that. How did that go into a psyche of elders, of ancestors that we also had in our blood? I mean we have been there being inquisitive as an inquisition and also as somebody who's been burned. I believe that we've been through all these stages and then talking about it and laughing and that would make me feel really uncomfortable to be honest, because it's. But then I usually leave it because, you know, it's just a different state of mind when you laugh about stuff like that.
[01:11:12] Unknown:
Yes. And I think we have to focus on a positive.
[01:11:15] Unknown:
Yeah, absolutely. 100%.
[01:11:18] Unknown:
to make them grow and become bigger.
[01:11:20] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I avoid the word witch like the plague. Yeah.
[01:11:29] Unknown:
So. So what is your view on the future of the relationship between plants and people? How do you think it's going to evolve in the, in the upcoming years or maybe centuries? I don't know. How. How do you see this?
[01:11:49] Unknown:
Well, I, I see there's a lot of, A lot of people waking up to this path. If there's such a thing as you can wake up. But I feel like there's almost this energy, this intricate energy. at least that's what I feel. And there's more and more people coming on my path that never heard about the work that I do and that I can make enthusiastic. I can make them feel something. And as soon as you touch that. Yeah. Then you have to invite that in your world. So I see a very bright future. I'm very enthusiastic about that. There's more people like us out there doing podcasts or whatever it is that we do, writing books, giving workshops. We just need to go out there and just talk about what we are most passionate about, and then more people will come on board. we know that we are at a tipping point, you know, with the Earth. We've been there a long time.
There is so much climate change. There's so much stuff going on. People are slowly starting to understand that this is not something a scientist just, you know, said in a lab, but this is something real. And, yeah, you can start in your own little. In your own little space, you know, all. Or you can do it, just buy plants, put lots of plants in your house, and already that's very little, very tiny, and start looking after gardens and, you know, get all these tiles out of your gardens. You know, we have this thing that you now get some subsidies from the government if you just make grass and plants and a wild garden. And that is small, but it's a very good start. We have communal gardens everywhere.
You know, we have young people going in and they, they. They are interested suddenly in eating organic or biological or something like that. So it doesn't matter whether it's eating or doing a plantiata or being a herbalist or doing a concoction or just an infusion. Doesn't matter. As long as you start somewhere, you soon be inspired, and you want to learn more and, Learning more. Yeah. There's so much to be learned. There's so much to be taught. There's so much, so many things that the plants want to tell you, you know, so.
[01:14:17] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:14:17] Unknown:
Is that an answer to your question?
[01:14:20] Unknown:
Yes. So we just have to keep doing the work, I guess. And don't give up.
[01:14:25] Unknown:
Don't give up.
[01:14:26] Unknown:
No, no, no. And one of the things I really like about. I mean, I have been working in this field for more than 20 years, and what I love to see is just this ripple effect. How, you know, I have my students, but they don't live, like, alone on an island. So, they're sitting in the garden eating their stinging nettle soup, and they're having a chat with their neighbor, and they're saying, hey, do you want a cup of stinging nettle soup as well? And, you know, or they cook for their family, or they, they just, you know, somebody get. Gets a, a bite from an insect and they just put some plantain on it. And I love this ripple Effect. I really.
Yes. And this is. This is just lovely if you. If your work can do this in the world. Yes, I totally love that.
[01:15:19] Unknown:
Also, something else that made me think about my granddaughter. She has this innate ability to. To just talk to the plants. You know, whenever she could talk, she started talking to the plant, and she really has whole conversations with them with her in her head. And, I mean, what would happen if you didn't have a mother or a father who would say, stop doing that. That's ridiculous. Plant, don't talk. What would happen if you would teach her children to say, hey, what is this plant actually saying to you? Can you draw this or shall we? You know, instead of bringing that child down.
Don't be silly. You know, oh, you can't. You know that plants don't speak. Instead of having that attitude. Huh? Which is horrible. Instead of, you know, saying to that child, oh, wow, is this. Is this. I can't hear it. Can you talk to Ulma? What the plant says of what. You see, this is already a big step. If we teach our children that it's okay to talk to plants and to be in nature and, you know, to get dirty, to have dirt under your fingernails and stuff like that, that would be a great start. I. I think. Yeah.
[01:16:26] Unknown:
Yes. Thank you for mentioning this. I think that's a great tip for a lot of parents and grandparents. Yes. Yes. So, Anki, if people are interested in your work, where can they find more information? Like, do you have a website or a social media account or where they can they find the info that they need?
[01:16:45] Unknown:
Yeah, I have a website and it is, plantspeard. guru. That's the English one, and it's Plantspear Guru Punt Enel for the Dutch one. And there they can find stuff. I also, I have an Instagram page, and I sometimes load stuff up, but I'm not really good with these things. I'm.
[01:17:06] Unknown:
Which is fine.
[01:17:07] Unknown:
It is just. It's really exhausting, I think, to upload. I have a lot of, people who do this every day. And I'm going, like, how. How is this even a thing for you? I just don't understand how it works. So, yeah, I do have an Instagram page and a Facebook page, of course, and you can look me up. And, yeah, just if you're interested, just. Just book a free call with me for 30 minutes. We can chat about your passions and. And what it is that you would like to achieve is that if there is such a thing with the plants and then yeah, from there on, we got it.
[01:17:44] Unknown:
Yes. Lovely. And yes, thank you for saying that about the Instagram thing. sometimes I get, questions from people that say, oh, as a forager, I would love to see more what exactly it is that you're eating. And can. Can't you make pictures of what you're eating? And then I really think, well, I have two teenagers. How am I going to teach them, that the Instagram is not the most important thing in the world if I'm photographing everything that I'm eating? You know, it's just crazy. I don't want to do that. I just want to live by example and showing them that there are a lot of other interesting things in the world more interesting than Instagram. So. Yes.
[01:18:28] Unknown:
Yeah.
[01:18:28] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:18:29] Unknown:
Yeah, I totally agree. I, have. How do you film a plant encounter? I don't know. I can make up a nice story, but it's not like that. You know, I have done some stuff where, you know, you. You hold your caresser leaf and you teach people how to make contact with the plant. That can be done, but I cannot really. I also don't want. I'm shy about it. I don't want to speak to everybody about these things that I encounter. My plan. Lots of things are very personal. Do not want to have my personal life continuously looked at, by. By other people. This is just. Yeah, I'm actually quite a private person on that behalf, so. And that's what you said to teenagers, if you're on Instagram the whole entire time.
No, that is not the example you want to set. M. Absolutely. It is very good to see what other people are doing. And, I mean, Rosemary Gladstone, star. But she has a whole team.
[01:19:27] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:19:27] Unknown:
I don't have a team. You know, I have my husband sometimes who comes with the camera and he films me, and then I. I have to giggle. And sometimes it's really bad because I just. I'm, I'm nervous and, you know, oh, what should I say? Oh, it's not good enough. All these things come up, which is ridiculous. So, no Instagram. I'm not a fan, but it is there. Okay. Okay. Ah.
[01:19:50] Unknown:
So, for. For who's listening? Just go to the website of Anki. It's very interesting. It's very beautiful. And, Anki, I want to thank you for this lovely conversation that we had. Really passionate conversation. I really loved talking to you and to you, Wilde, that has been listening. Thank you for being here. I hope to see you back with the next episode and in the meantime, keep nourishing your wild soul and keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye for now. A warm thank you for listening. Wildy Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media media.
I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there. But for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart way. Up.
