Nikki Darrell is not only an experienced herbalist, she's also a passionate advocate for the deep relationship between plants and people, the author of the book "Conversations with Plants", and the founder of The Plant Medicine School, where she trains the next generation of herbalists.
In this episode we dive into the landscape of herbalism in Ireland and explore the wisdom of plants and how we can reconnect with nature through herbal medicine. Join us in this inspiring conversation.
About finding her own way from her grandmother's herb garden and her father's vegetable garden to studying horticultural science and herbal medicine.
About plant intelligence, plant neurobiology, and plant consciousness.
About the healing effects of building relationships with local plants.
About how ordinary plants and herbs are not ordinary at all.
About the value of information flowing between herbalists in Europe and between different generations.
About how the respect for fairy trees and elder trees is deeply rooted in Irish culture.
About the legal framework for herbalism in Ireland.
About The Plant Medicine School and how it evolved.
About the influence of climate change on the seasons and the plants.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Nikki and The Plant Medicine School here: https://theplantmedicineschool.squarespace.com/
You can also follow her on Instagram: @plantmedicineschool
Or on find her on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePlantMedicineSchool
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:33]
Unknown:
Welcome to Wild, the podcast for wildlings just like you. Wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. My name is Liebe Gollle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 02/2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together, we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and plants. And that's why for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you're ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild.
[00:02:13] Unknown:
Welcome to the Wild podcast. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Nikki Dorell. She's an experienced herbalist in Ireland, and she has over forty years of experience in plant medicine. She's a she's a passionate advocate for the deep relationship between plants and people, and she's the author of the book Conversation with Plants. And she trains the next generation of herbalists in the plant medicine school. Today, we'll dive into the landscape of herbalists in Ireland, exploring the wisdom of plants and the profound ways we can reconnect with nature through herbal medicine. Welcome, Nikki.
[00:02:55] Unknown:
Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here with you.
[00:03:00] Unknown:
So what first drew you to herbs and herbal medicine? Was it, something that already was present in your childhood, or or how did it get started?
[00:03:11] Unknown:
Yeah. I it's something that I was fascinated from a very young age, a combination of things. I think, back in sort of the sixties, where would have been when I was small. And, there were lots of the children's books had little bits about herbs and herbalism. Not just herbalism, but the whole thing about, herbs being used a lot more in food and all of and the whole cultural side of it. And I can remember when I was very small, you know, go you'd go on holidays, and in the gift shops, there'd be little things like herb pillows, the hops pillows, and things like that.
And I just always found this fascinating. My grandmother had a little herb garden. My dad would have grown a lot of vegetables, and got us into, you know, the foraging, eating the weeds, because, you know, sometimes they grew better than the vegetables. So, you know, it all started very young. I mean, I I I think I got my first packet of herb seeds when I was about nine years old. I got first two herbal books when I was about 11 and just found it fascinating from very young.
[00:04:34] Unknown:
Wow. That's that's a long time you have been working with herbs, and you're still doing it. And how how has your understanding of herbalism evolved over the past forty years?
[00:04:47] Unknown:
Well, I suppose it's, it's yes. It's gone through many different stages. So when when it came to sort of finishing at school, I would have loved to go straight on to train to be a herbalist, but, I didn't know where to do that. So instead, I studied plant and horticultural science, which I'm really glad I did. You know, there was there was a stage where I was like, was that a detour? But, no, it's really fed, my sort of understanding of things and so on. And I I worked, as a re research scientist for about five years after college.
And then I discovered a way one could study to be a herbalist. So I I did, the mainstream, school of phytotherapy training in The UK. And but alongside that, I would always have been doing my own studies and fascinated by growing the herbs, using them in food, making things myself, and so on. And I suppose that the training that I did was quite a sort of medical herbalist training. When I came out of it, I did feel a little bit like there's some gaps there. I had always been somebody who would have, done the cooking and the forage foods and those kind of things, and I would have learned a lot about making creams and so on when I did an aromatherapy training as well.
But it still felt a little bit sort of very medical. I mean, my my parents my dad was a doctor. My my mom was a nurse. But when they trained, herbs was still a huge part of what was used in medicine, actually. So, so from there, it was sort of finding my own way around some of the things, especially the whole thing about, people, plants being able to communicate with each other, and exploring all of that. Very ironically, one of the people I worked within the research world has now become one of the main people talking about plant intelligence and the whole plant neurobiology and that side of things. I was very surprised when the name cropped up. It was good to to see that he'd gone in that direction.
But it's wonderful because now there is all that stuff in the scientific world that is validating what we would know from really reconnecting with our authentic, sort of indigenosity or natural human being self where we know that we can go out, and if we're in the right state of mind and quieten us our minds and so on, we can sit with a plant and feel the communications from it. That would be something that we would we would work with with our students a lot because we would feel, that it is very much not just what you read in books, but the relationship you have with the plants. And that's something that I think is so important.
I think over the last sort of ten years or so on, and it's partly because what's happening in the world at the moment, but also, the whole idea of we have co evolved with the plants around us, and these plants are the best healers. Now, of course, we love using a bit of cinnamon or different things than they've there used to be that these trade routes that were very much, you know, before sort of the more colonialist attitude. There's been trade and plants moving around the world ever since they've been humans, really. So but this idea that the local plants are important, and by having, this relationship with our plants and where we are living, then that is healing in itself as well, and it reconnects us into our place in nature, but also these plants around us. And a lot of that information had been a bit eroded. So we've had great fun, not just with the the people in Ireland, but I'm I'm very lucky to have made connection with herbalists, in different areas of Europe.
And we're we were very lucky to have students from all across Europe. And that exchange of information, which I feel used to flow a lot better. Getting that flow of information back is so important, because you notice, like, if you read, a herbal book from, say, France or from Greece, the one slightly different plants being used, but also different characteristics of the plants, different aspects of who they are are focused on. So I'm, like, I'm I suppose I'm one of those people who it's like plants in my life. They're my you know, this is this is my way of life. This is my passion. Anything to do with plants, I just love. And to we moved about five years ago to somewhere where we have about five acres. We have some woodland. There's a river on the boundary.
We have the opportunity to have a lot of plants growing here, seeing which plants thrive, and so on. And as I say, this this learning more rather than using the arnica from the Alps, which is really good for the people in the Alps, we we would tend to use daisies now and find them exceptionally good. You know, the idea of using things like the rosebay willow herb, finding out exactly what a magnificent healer some somewhere you know, a plant like yarrow or plantain or nettle, some of these very ordinary plants surround us. They're not ordinary.
[00:10:51] Unknown:
They're amazing. You know? They are not.
[00:10:54] Unknown:
No. And it's the it's incredible, and seeing seeing how people waken up with, this connection rather than just brown bottles on shelves, but getting to know the plants, realizing there's so much more to working with herbs than just taking tinctures. But also, you know and the ways we can work with the plants, they're not just about our physical health. They work on us physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and they are sentient beings, so we can have a relationship with them. So I don't know if that answered my your question. Yes.
[00:11:37] Unknown:
Yes. And I I I like what you said about exchanging ideas and experiences with other herbalists from from Europe because sometimes I am I have this sense of grief of knowledge that is lost, especially here in Belgium. And for me, it's really inspiring to it's like a jigsaw because sometimes I I feel like, oh, this is another piece of the puzzle that I just found, and I found it by talking to this, herbalist from Bulgaria or from from Norway or and that makes it really, really interesting, I think. Yeah.
[00:12:18] Unknown:
I think this is very important because I feel a lot of the knowledge hasn't been lost. We just have to work out where to look for it. Exactly. It is that exchange with people. Like, we we have students for and and sort of friends in, you know, Greece, in the Scandinavian countries, in Eastern Europe, France, kind of Croatia, Spain, Italy. And there's this lovely flow of information, and I think that it's so valuable to because there has been a little bit of that sort of monoculturing of, herbal medicine. It's sort like, all big you know, in some of the the books and so on, it's a little bit of, oh, you know, your local herbs aren't good enough. You need the ones, the exotic ones, and so on. And it it's just not true. I think the older people in places still have a lot of knowledge. And I think I was looking the wrong the wrong place, as in we're very lucky in Ireland. In the nineteen thirties, the folklore commission sent people out to talk to all the older people.
And so there's this huge repository of information, some of it in Irish, some of it in English, and it's in it's, in the folklore commission. And, actually, how what's her name? Hatfield. Is she? Henrietta Hatfield, I think. A lot of her book is based on some of that information from Ireland. But you've also you've got that in other countries as well, where some of that information from older people is there. And I think the other thing we have to remember is we can kind of connect directly with the plants to get. And I I am noticing at the moment that the plants have sort of you know, the world has changed a lot in the last hundred years, an awful lot. A lot more than the hundred years before that in many ways.
And and the plants are so adaptable. And, you know, when we talk to them and we we ask them, you know, they go, like, well, no. We can do it like this now, sort of thing. So I I I feel I I I know what you mean about the grief. I think a lot of my grief is around how the humans are feeling quite lost in it all. Mhmm. Mhmm. And as soon I I'm amazed, you know, even when we just do a little plant ID walk or something. You take people out to the local woods, and they're all interested, but you get them all to stop and do some breeding with a large tree or whatever, and they they go, oh my goodness. This is this is so I feel so much better, and so on. So it's I think I feel a lot of it is about helping the humans back into their Mhmm. Their natural self.
And then they get so excited, you know, about the fact that there is all this amazing medicine and so on all around us, stuff that actually, when we work with the plants, this is not stuff that pollutes the world, and destroys ecosystems. This this way of living actually is part of the healing of the world as well. Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:15:45] Unknown:
Yes. It always surprises me as well when I have a group of people here, and I see them leaving after class. They look so happy. You can really see it in their faces. They feel more whole. They have this the sense of belonging. Mhmm. It just never ceases to amaze me how how deep and profound that really is. Yeah. So I totally hear what you're saying. Yes. Yes. And I want to, talk a little bit more about this plant's consciousness. Like, how do you define that, and how can herbalists, like, cultivate a deeper relationship with plants?
[00:16:25] Unknown:
That's a and, that's a a wonderful question. I think there's several ways. So myself and my husband have evolved, a a a sort of simple system of exercises called nature resonance medicine because, and with this, we we we show the students how to do this. It's very much, a step of exercises, which when we have compared it with what various indigenous people and so on do, it's very similar. And we were amazed because we we sort of sat down and did our bit of work and developed our system and started looking around and discovered that other people are doing something quite similar.
So the first thing the first thing that gets in people's way is the amount of stress and tension and being distracted. So we start with a very simple breathing, and relaxing, and then working through the body, doing a fractional relaxation to help them get into their own bodies, because a lot of people are kind of floating above their heads or Mhmm. Wherever they are. And then we do a little bit of slow movement outside to help us, so very similar to what Titchenahan would have spoken about the slow movement. And then we get them to work with their senses and really feel into their senses and understand how their senses work. So we work with the, the primary senses of sight and sound and touch and taste and hearing and smell.
And we noticed the slow movement actually helps to open the senses up very well. So we do that, and then we get them into the heart resonant field because this is, a lot of our nonverbal and emotional communication. So they do a simple exercise to help, get in tune with that and then get into, the place of loving appreciation and the sort of innocent child energy. Because when we're kids, we have no problem with doing this stuff. You know? Exactly. And so it's and it's not like shutting off the left neocortex or the neocortex because that can be very helpful as well, because it helps us to remember, oh, this one has five petals. Oh, the ones that have yellow flowers are often good for the liver.
The all of those things. It's not like you have to shut anything off. It's making friends between the different parts of ourselves. And and this this series of exercises is very much to get people okay. The communications are not gonna be verbal from a plant. You know? But they may give you information by their shapes, their color, that kind of thing. They may use some of your memories or an association because the heart and the limbic center and so on, connect up together. And the plants have the equivalency of the same heart center, and they do this electromagnetic resonance.
So this is where we communicate with each other. So people will sometimes feel an emotional tone. They may get a sensation somewhere in their body. They may have a memory, of, say, being at home or, a song, or they may get a a strong color that's associate like, for instance, a blue color is often associated with relaxation and sleep or, what whatever those, you know, different things. So it's about without sort of shutting down the, sort of the neocortex. It's about being open to receiving information in other ways. We also do this with, say, the whole thing about how the gut brain and the sense of taste.
So we we work with tastings and so on and noticing, you know, that mindful way of rather than, just drinking your cup of herb tea, actually swirling it around and noticing what happens. Some some people work a lot with, say, drawing the plants as well because that gets another part of their brain involved and working with the the smell, all of these things. So there there's a few different bits we use, but it's a lot of we we feel a lot of it is schooling as well, saying to people it's all about a data dump into your brain. You you know, how do you make these connections? So some people love drawing, some people don't.
Some people love, making the teas or, you know, that's all growing the little baby plants and seeing them grow up. It's like, what will build your relationship with the plant? And then as I say, the nature resonance sequence really helps people get into that place where they're able to be calm and in a in a more sort of their more natural human space where they're open to the idea that, you know, conscious communication is not just a verbal thing. It isn't between humans either. You know? And there's you know, everything around us has a consciousness, and, you know, plants in particular have huge sentience. We often say, like, the big trees, we expect them to have sort of a big presence, and they they often do. But sometimes it's a tiny little or something that goes, like, hi.
You know, it's a bit like some of the small birds like a wren or a robin. They seem to have huge, sort of presence in the place. So, yeah, and it's not not being embarrassed to talk about how some of your best friends are plants. You know?
[00:22:48] Unknown:
I like that. Yeah. It it had it has always bothered me. Like, I don't even know if that is an expression in English, but what I hear people often say in Dutch or in Flemish is, my plant broke. And I say, no. It didn't break. A table can break or a chair breaks or a laptop breaks, but it dies. It actually dies. It's a living creature. It's a living being. And this is, for a lot of people, just mind blowing if I tell them that it's it's alive, but it really is.
[00:23:25] Unknown:
Yeah. I I I think it's quite interesting because I think a lot of people, it's like well, they that that whole thing around, the plant blindness thing, how people don't see plants. And I'm like, that's terrible. How sad. What a sad word. But but, also, I think that a lot of people do quietly have that relationship with their houseplant or whatever, that they know when they sit next to their spider plant or their peace lily, it it they feel better, but they go like, yeah. Well, you maybe can do that with your dog or cat, but maybe, you know, maybe normal people don't do it with a plant. But a lot of people do actually do it. So I think I I think that's another aspect.
And the exciting thing about the whole area of plant neurobiology and all of this is I mean, there's a big kind of thing in plant science at the moment. There's a little group of plant neurobiologists going, no. This is an actual thing, and and the others, like, plant scientists going, that's rubbish. But it's great that there are people like Paco Calvo, writing about these things and talking about okay. They don't have the same anatomy and physiology, but these are the scar corresponding things within them. And they do have intelligence. They can learn. They have memory. This is how their, new they don't have the same kind of nervous system, but it's like their vascular system is also a nervous system. So I find this all very exciting. It it doesn't quite make me go, oh, I wish I'd stayed in plant science to until this happened.
But it's great to see it happening, and it really kind of, feeds into what we actually know in our roots is the case. So it's great.
[00:25:15] Unknown:
Yes. It's very, very interesting. And by all means, let's redefine normal people and what normal people do. Right? Yes. And I was I was wondering how much how much of the the viewpoint of the Irish culture is at play here. Because, I have recently learned from some Irish people that, and I love that. They told me that, the name in Irish for yarrow is like father of the soil. And I thought that is so amazing because it it immediately connects the plants to other plants or to other elements. And I thought, this just shows this view of interconnection.
And I wonder how much is that still a thing in the Irish culture or in the Irish way of thinking.
[00:26:15] Unknown:
It's quite interesting. In Ireland, there are the Guelph top areas where people speak Irish every you know, that's the the language of the areas. And there's no question I'm not fluent in Irish, but there's no question that so much of the Irish language than as you say, the names and so on, very much, a poetic description. But, then, not everybody would be speaking Irish, but there is a huge because in Ireland, you would have the the cures where people inherit a cure for a particular condition or whatever. And there's a lot of, if you like, res respect for, the the old ways of things and the nettle soup in the spring, these kind of things. And the the fairy trees, there's one of the most ways in Ireland, they they changed where they were gonna put it because there was one of the fairy trees. An old hawshorn tree was on the route that they wanted to plow through, and it was like, no. We can't do that.
So I I should explain. I I was I was born in The UK. I have lived in Ireland most of my life, but I'm I'm a a mixture of different cultures. So I yes. I've I've spent most of my life in Ireland, but I also have an influence from my mom would have been from Grenada in The Caribbean, and an influence from, I'd have a lot of Scottish ancestors as well. So I'm a little bit of a mixture, but I do definitely oh, in Ireland, I in rural areas, there would still be a lot of interest in, these kind of things. And I think everybody in Ireland still knows the the fairy tree is it's so deep in our culture here, and the elder trees, you must respect them. There's still a lot of that there, and little vestiges and so on, I suppose, is the way I'd look at.
But then we have the influence within sort of the herbal world of the more sort of medical herbal training because, if you like, there there would have been as I say, there were the the cures passed down. There would have been the healers, and the sort of seventh sun thing and all of that. And then it would have been and there would have been a lot of herbs grown in Ireland up to the up to probably the second World War for use in mainstream medicine. There was quite a strong connection there, but then there were the influences of things like the famines and so on where people got more disconnected from their land and their heritage, but a lot of people wanting to reclaim that as well.
So, bit of a mixture, really.
[00:29:20] Unknown:
Right. Yes. It's it's interesting to to see. So all the people I've interviewed so far throughout Europe, the legal framework is, like, completely different in every European country, it seems, for, herbalism. And, so could we compare the the legal framework for herbalism in Ireland? Is it, like, the same as in England or similar?
[00:29:48] Unknown:
It's quite similar. The UK and Ireland are both under common law rather than Napoleonic law like France or that kind of thing. So it's similar, but, and so, basically, the same thing of, anybody has a right to to be a herbalist. Basically, there is nothing preventing anyone because that's part of common law. But one slight difference between Ireland and The UK is the number of herbs that are restricted. We have a bigger list of herbs that are restricted in Ireland. Uh-huh. But that would be more some of the, not not the indigenous herbs. I mean, okay. You know, we can't use we can't use, foxglove, obviously.
But when we're not allowed to use comfrey internally at all, herbalists are allowed to use Saint John's wort hypericum, but it's not legal to sell it over the counter. Okay. But, the a lot of the herbs that we are not permitted to use would be more like phytolacca, which is from The US or that at different stages. At one stage, I was on the medicines board herbal subcommittee. That's when the whole, thing from The UK came in, the traditional medicines thing. They had they had about 10 of us on the committee, and they had three herbalists on the committee. So very interested in, you know, having herbalists as part of the framework.
Mhmm. One or two herbs that they were, like, talking about getting rid of, we just sort of very politely explained the science and so on and said, you know, it was more about what those herbs can be used for. Like, for instance, they were looking at hawthorn in a worried fashion because it's used for heart conditions. So they were saying, no. Hawthorn berries have been used to make jelly, and, the leaves have been used as food for Yes. Exactly. So, you should be more worried about sage. That's much stronger, but sage is a culinary herb, so we're not worried about that one. And then then there were a couple of others where they were, like, not sure about it. So we can't, you know, we can't use, as they say, phytolacca, we can't use. But I think most countries in Europe can't use, kava kava now.
Some of the other things, gelsamium and so on. But we have loads of wonderful herbs growing here that do a magnificent job. When I qualified, there was a period when Hypericum could not be used by Herbalist, but we went to see the then minister for health and explained who we were, and he said, fine. You can have that and the ginkgo bag. But what I will say is, during that time when we couldn't use those, two herbs, what people remembered was, actually, you know, hype there are so many other herbs that you can use. You know, there isn't just one condition called depression. It's like, where is it arising from in the body?
And we've got so many herbs that can help with low mood and depression, and it actually enlarged our practice. So, and I I very rarely use Saint John's book, actually, because so often something else is more appropriate when you really listen to the person and tune in. Mhmm. And though those skills that we use for tuning in with the plants can be very valuable with with the people as well. Absolutely. Yes. The words don't always say. And we use some a little bit of pulse diagnosis as well so that you're really being able to, kind of assess, okay. Where where is this imbalance? It's not just a chemical imbalance that needs correcting words. Mhmm. Mhmm. And the same with not being able to use the ginkgo, we remembered using rosemary and hawthorn and all these other herbs.
So, you know, it's it it it's such it it enlarged our practice a lot, I think. And, I think one of the nice things here is that there's a real diversity of people practicing. Practicing. So some that would draw a lot more on sort of, say, some of the folklore and those traditions. Other people very much on the, I forgot what they're called. But on the the the sort of herbal practitioners who were not necessarily doctors, but they were the family herbalists for the big families in Ireland. And Mhmm. So there's a there's there's different approaches, and I think this is very valuable. Some people say I will only use herbs that are native to here. So there's a very famous herbalist. He's pretty much retired now, but a guy called Sean Boylan, and he's a seventh son.
And he has his key group of herbs, and some of them are ones that most people wouldn't think of using, like Oxeye Daisy or Knapweed or whatever. We use Oxeye Daisy ourselves. But they're they're all much more the the herbs of Ireland. His practice
[00:35:25] Unknown:
Yes. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it's particularly interesting how there was the possibility of a dialogue between the herbalists and the government, which I think we are missing in Belgium. This is unthinkable, actually, at the moment. So I think that is very interesting. And I'm thinking about, yeah, maybe we should connect more in Belgium to to really have this conversation going with the government. I don't think they're very open to conversation at the moment, but you never know.
[00:36:09] Unknown:
Well, I think we were quite fortunate in some ways in the, one of the pharmacy departments. The the people teaching in that were very, passionate about plant medicine themselves. And then so the I mean, that whole thing of how we ended up with three herbalists on that board, that board is now defunct, I think. I stood down from about twelve years ago. But it was it it was a series of fortunate connections in some ways. And then we we have our own register here, the Irish register of herbalists, and they would have it's it's it's a small country. People know each other and so on. You know? It's a little bit how things are done here. I it it has some pluses and some minuses, I think.
But do you do you have a professional organization in Belgium for herbalists? Or
[00:37:11] Unknown:
Well, we do. But the thing is there is there is not a thing like medical herbalism in Belgium because it's it's not allowed. And then some people, like, they they do their education in The US or in in The UK, and so they are medical herbalists, and they want to practice in Belgium. And the government doesn't really know what to do with these people. It's kind of officially as if the government is saying it's not possible. It's not a possibility the herbs don't work. But on the other hand, we also have this list of forbidden herbs, which is quite long compared to the neighboring con countries. And then I think, yeah. But what is it? Do the herbs not work, or are they dangerous? You know, you you cannot say both at the same time. They cannot be the thing is that because there is no it's not officially licensed or there is no so any school can, like, organize, like, a three nights in a row course after which you can call yourself a herbalist, which is not okay. I mean, we both know that you cannot become a herbalist in three evenings. Right?
So, that's a bit of a thing. And, yes, there are some schools that are are really professional and that give a good training. But, nevertheless, it's not a training to become a medical herbalist. So it's, you know, more yes. You get this this knowledge, but it's, you can use it in your own family, but that's pretty much it. And you can teach others, but you cannot practice. So that's kind of the legal framework we have here here in Belgium at the moment, but I don't see it changing anywhere soon.
[00:39:02] Unknown:
Yeah. I I suppose that, you know, this is similar to, say, countries like France. You can't be medical. Yes. Yes. You can't do a medical diagnosis, but you can use tongue and pulse diagnosis. You you can run workshops, and you can suggest to people, maybe, you know, take some Cal Mart tea or whatever. Yeah. I I think there's a lot of ways to be a herbalist, and I do feel the whole thing, we we're delighted that so many of our graduates, run workshops in their community. Mhmm. I just think I feel like the more people are out there teaching people about how amazing herbs are, then it it switches where, you know, where the ball lies.
And it's you know, the more people who want to use herbs, the more likely it is that the the governments might make some shifts in the right direction. Okay. It's important to make sure that it's not a top down approach from Mhmm. Government. So, you know, because I I think it's, like, it's important. You see, it's a little bit like when a lot of the the herbal courses started in the universities in The UK. They were all science degrees. So the only herbs were that were taught were really the ones that had peer reviewed papers around them. Mhmm. And it had to be science. So some of the more energetic and sort of artisan aspects of it were cut out of the curriculum, and that wasn't good for Mhmm. Herbalism.
It cut out a lot of the very valuable what makes herbalism into such an amazing area. But as as those courses have closed and it's going back to sort of some more independent schools, some of those things are coming back in. And I think that's I think it's it's great. You know? Mhmm. I think, you know, there was a stage where people were talking about sort of, you know, statutory regulation of herbalists. And, actually, most herbalists were like, we don't want that because that means people will be telling us who we have to be, and and that's not good.
And, you know, the major you know, herbalists are are passionate about herbs and using them safely and using them effectively, and spreading that knowledge. So it's like we we're very good at regulating ourselves. Thank you.
[00:41:43] Unknown:
Yes. I I believe that as well, and I think we really have to keep walking the talk. And then, you know, people people do get inspired just by how what what you're doing and how you're doing it and yes. Yes. And I wanted to talk a bit about the plant medicine school that you founded. Mhmm. Because, I was thinking about how how before the school existed, how accessible is it to or or was it to have decent herbal schooling in Ireland?
[00:42:22] Unknown:
Well, in Ireland, the main most people who wanted to train as a herbalist, would train sort of the distance courses from the school of phytotherapy and so on in The UK, or they'd go over to a degree there. Okay. There was also the the College of Naturopathic Medicine opened up here at some stage, but they're they're they're more naturopathy. So that although there is a herbal stream, it was, you know, a mixture. They would teach different things. So, and then there was, one very traditional school, the school of Bridget's Healing. No. Bridget's Healing Academy.
And that was a three or four year training, and involve had a lot with the folklore and that aspect. Mhmm. Mhmm. I think those were the main ones that were here. So when I when I started the way the school started was I, I've always loved teaching. And after I qualified, I I thought, well, I'd like to do some little evening courses in using herbs at home and, maybe something like how to plant up your herb garden and, well, you know, different little courses like that. And after I've been running them for a couple of years, some of the people who've done those courses said, we really enjoyed that. We we wanna go to another level.
So I set up the Herbal Apprenticeship, which is a two year course, sort of more the community herbalist, not somebody who's gonna be diagnosing or anything like that Mhmm. Or who could get people in love with the plants and make sort of simple recommendations, a bit like the kind of stuff you can do in France and so on. And that's that was all I was interested in. But the universe had a different idea. So, actually, just to say because I found like you said, well, you know, when people get to do that kind of training and they they they taste things made by the, you know, say, wild pesto and so on. They go, oh my goodness. This is really live food. It it changed the changes their settings, if you like, and they they remember what it's like to to be a natural person.
But what happened then was a group of people well, it's a very long complicated story, but, anyway, a group I was asked to add, a clinical practitioner training on. It was something I would not have imagined doing. So I set it I set it up, and it has evolved a lot over the twelve years, I think, we've been running it for. It's evolved a lot from being quite a sort of medical herbalist training to having those aspects of, you know, differential diagnosis, clinical science, all of that, but we've brought in things like tongues and pulses. We've brought in a lot more around the nature resonance work.
We would, you know, we would say, okay. Some of the older ways of working with patients are more valuable because they are not not that we ever were treating them like the the arthritis or the whatever it is, but a little bit more sort of into what is underlying. You know, where when do we go in here to actually help this person into a better state of of health and well-being. So there's been an evolution. I mean, we we still have a really nice diversity of t teachers, and some of them are very much medical herbalists, and then some of them will be more, from the Association of Master Herbalists who have, very kindly, recognized or accredited our course in the last year.
We don't use iridology or those things, but we would bring in, like, the naturopathic principles of the importance of good nutrition, fresh air, exercise, relaxation, all of those things, which was always in it. But I think we've found ourselves more able to use maybe a softer language around some things. Yeah. So it's not what I thought I was gonna be doing, but we we have a lovely team around us. And, you know, as the school has developed, we've got a a really great team of people involved in the teaching, and it's great. And I think at this stage, because, you know, my hair's getting a bit grayer and so on, I'm I'm seeing how I can step back a little bit and let some of those people step in and and take on some of those bits so that I can go and play with the plants more.
[00:47:36] Unknown:
Yes. I I love how you say there are so many ways to be a herbalist because it's true. And it's it's exactly that diversity that makes it so beautiful, I think, that, you know, everybody has their own unique experiences in life and their own unique characters and personality, and and it mixes in with the herbs. And, you know, it becomes their own thing. And, indeed, for some people, it's more the medical herbalism, and for other people, it's more like the folklore thing. And and I really like that. I really appreciate that because there is herbalism has many, many faces, and that's exactly what makes it so beautiful to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think the other thing about each herbalist being themselves,
[00:48:25] Unknown:
hopefully, is how the the relationship with a particular plant can be, you know, slightly different. You know, one person will say, oh, yeah. No. I use Yarrow like this for this or whatever. Another person goes, my goodness. I'd I do you know, when I'm working with Yarrow, it's something completely different, but the Yarrow works with both of them. You know? And it's not it's not that one person's approach is the right one, another person's is the wrong one. Okay? Mhmm. Some wrong approaches, but there's so many right approaches. And the way that some people will work mainly with tinctures, other people will say no. Bathing with the herbs is the the way to use them or, you know, using flower essences as part of what they use or the all the different ways in which you can relate with the herbs and how they can be medicines for people.
I it's it's just fascinating. I mean, we we very much with the students and in my own practice, we would use a lot of aromatic waters. We would use powders. I do use I use tinctures as well, but we use a lot of, aceta vinegar tinctures because we they're really effective. I don't I don't use glycerine because it's sticky. So but we use we we do infused honeys and things. And so but
[00:49:50] Unknown:
Right. Okay. Now Yes. It's that's something I was all all also wondering, Like, how easy is it if you don't make your own tinctures or your own, herbal blends, how easy is it to find good quality, herbal products in Ireland?
[00:50:08] Unknown:
Well, we like, dried herbs, we would order mainly from, Germany, from gout aromatic waters and things we would get from and essential oils from France. Post Brexit, there isn't a huge supply chain into Ireland, but we've started to look more towards Europe. So we do make quite a lot of our own medicines here. But as I say, where we we haven't got enough supply, we're we're hoping to move more towards self sufficiency with the area that we have here. There isn't anybody making tinctures in Ireland at the moment. Oh, really? No. They they all gave up.
That's a that's a completely different story. So, I I think a lot of people are looking at other others' forms of teas. And quite frankly, I I actually think that teas are more effective than tinctures if you can persuade people to to drink them. Mhmm. Mhmm. I do find the powders are really good as well, and the aromatic waters and so on. So there are there are different people looking at setting up, growing, and processing an island, but for a lot of people, it's doing it for themselves. And as I say, we've shifted because we were so used to sort of just, like, ordering stuff from The UK, but that's not the name anymore.
So but I think it's actually had a huge value of making us question why were we using tinctures for everyone? Because tinctures have a value, but, actually, they're not always the best form of medicine for everyone. Mhmm. And it sort of enlarged our way of working with the herbs and expanded that. So, I'm not being a ridiculous optimist. It sometimes sounds a bit like that. I think it's helped us to remember that it that wasn't the way that herbs were used all the time. And I'm I have to say bay you know, the whole thing of bathing with herbs, either foot baths or a full body bath with herbs, is a fantastic way of working with the herbs.
So I think, you know, that's why I'm saying, I think it's actually done us a favor in a lot of ways to actually help us remember There are many more ways in which we can work with the plants and the plants Mhmm. With us.
[00:52:39] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes. And I hear you're on the bathing with herbs, and I think there is another factor in that as well that you you need to take time for it. Mhmm. You know? And this is exactly why herb herbal baths, I think, are not popular anymore or not a common thing anymore because it takes time, and every everything has to go so fast these days. But it's really interesting to look at these herbs and and use them in a herbal bath and take the time for it. And time is such an important factor in our work. Like, making connection with the plants, it's not like in one second, you need to take a little bit of time for that, before you can find a state of openness and you know?
And, yes, I think I think this may be one of the big lessons that plants have to teach us. Take your time. Don't hurry. Don't don't, you know, take your time. Nature doesn't hurry up. You know? The season just go the way they're going and and, you know, like like, as a forager, this springtime, it was, yeah, it was a bit challenging because we had a very cold spring, and I had to wait for a longer time before I could harvest my nettles and my, garlic mustard and everything. But it was okay because, you know, there is no way I could speed up nature or or it it it would not make any sense to be frustrated about this. You know? Things were just the way they were, and it was good. You know? And, yeah, this is this is a lesson we have to learn as humans, I think.
Yeah. Definitely. And I was also wondering, like, do you see influences of of climate change in in Ireland and the work that you're doing with plants? Because as a forager here on the Mainland and and Belgium, I can definitely see it. I can see that the seasons changing, and, like, sometimes it's very wet, and sometimes it's very dry. And and it's a challenge for some plants, but it's also an opportunity for other plants.
[00:54:53] Unknown:
I, yeah, that's something I've asked myself about. We I think we're a lot less affected than the Mainland is. We have had we've had some pretty bad storms, in the last couple of years, but we've always had storms. We've had some very wet winters, but that's fit that's something that's not unusual. We we've had a couple of nonexistent summers, like, literally years. Like, the sun didn't shine for, like, you know, nearly two years, it felt like. But Painful. Yeah. It was bad. But then we've had you see, then we've had the ones like the Mediterranean summer, and we're hoping that this year is framing up to be one like that. So we haven't had the same extremes of, say, floods and droughts and so on.
If you if if one looks back over the last sort of fifty, sixty years, it's like, oh, no. Well, we had worst droughts in, say, the seventies, than now. So I think we are fortunate that we haven't had some of the extremes that the Mainland has. Mhmm. And, yeah, it's like really looking at talking to some of the farmers and so on, and we're we're really going, is there a big effect here, or is it the natural ups and downs of Mhmm. Climate? You know? I I it's hard to say, and I wouldn't like, you know, I wouldn't like to say it one way or the other. Actually, I I suppose the other thing is I moved from I lived in Cork most of my life, and we I'm we moved up to Oxford Five Years ago.
The difference between the two areas, you know, it's a Mhmm. A small country, but it's, it's a lot more sunny and everything up here than it would be that well, it's sunny down in Cork, but it's a lot moister than up here.
[00:57:05] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:57:06] Unknown:
There's a huge variation over the whole, island has quite a big variation going on. I think it's very hard to tell, actually, But I think we are far more fortunate than a lot of places on the Mainland.
[00:57:21] Unknown:
Okay. Interesting. Thank you. So what I was wondering, how with all of your experience of the past forty years, how do you see herbalism in Ireland and in Europe evolving over the next twenty to thirty years?
[00:57:39] Unknown:
I think that's an impossible question to ask, but I'll explain why. Sorry. No. I'll explain why. I mean, that's what I'd love to see is a lot more of this networking throughout Europe, of people and people who are passionate about not just, reclaiming the the knowledge, but also helping it to evolve. The reason why the reason why I say it's impossible to answer is because I think we're living in such an interesting time. And it's very I wouldn't like to say where I think anything is going in the next twenty years because there's so much going on.
And I think there's, you know, there's different lanes, if you like, or even different realities. So there's the Mhmm. We're going, we really want the community and the stuff that's, you know, good for the ecosystems and the environment and so on. And there's the people who want to live in the virtual world. And there's all the political stuff that's going on. There's so much going on. I think it's very hard to say what will happen. My hope is that I'm not I mean, my sense is that more and more people is, feeling like they want to be more in touch with their local environment. They are seeing the value in natural health care, and all of this kind of thing.
It's hard to say where it's gonna go would be what what I'd have to say. I do feel there'll be a lot more localizing, you know, of these are the the let's use what we can grow around us. Mhmm. I mean, like, we we the climate here means we we do have some plants that we grow here, like, say, immortal helichrysum, and and rosemary isn't actually a native here, but we use loads of Oh. Yeah. It's not actually native. Really? Yeah. So but but we've been growing it here for so long. And then there are some of the sort of Chinese herbs, like the Chinese skullcap and cardinopsis and so on, will grow really happily here.
I I I I hope that that it will become much more something that plant medicine is a central part of people's lives again. That's what I'd like to do. As I say, the the world is is very interesting at the moment, and I wouldn't hope so.
[01:00:12] Unknown:
Yes. And I can definitely see the the growing interest. I I see that as well in my courses. Yes. And I I'm thinking back about what you said in the beginning of our talk, how your parents in the medical fields that the herbal knowledge was still part of the medical fields and the medical education at that moment. And I'm wondering if there is ever going to be a time when this will be reality again. I really wonder. It's an interesting thing to think about, I I think. The interesting thing in Ireland is that pharmacists,
[01:00:47] Unknown:
when they're training, as part of their degree, they still do a big section on, plant medicines.
[01:00:55] Unknown:
Okay.
[01:00:56] Unknown:
But they've taken it out of the curriculum in The UK. And I suppose, like, in places like Italy and France, they run postgraduate training in Hertz, but only for medical doctors. I don't know. I think it's another one of those. We'll just have to see what happens in the world because a lot of there's a lot of shifting going on. So I think I think the best thing we can do is just teach the knowledge to as many people as we can, and it won't do any harm, and it may do a lot of good.
[01:01:34] Unknown:
Yes. I couldn't agree more, really. Yes. I would I would like to finish with, a quote from your website, actually, because I I found it so beautiful. And it says, as we reclaim the ability to know the plants growing outside our doors, the value of working with local plants, which in recent times have often been overlooked as powerful healers and valuable nutrition, we will realize that the real library of herbal medicine, the true learning of meaning is in the garden, the meadow, the forest, in whatever places we meet our with our green allies and listen to their stories and truths.
[01:02:20] Unknown:
I love that. I really love that. Great. I'm I'm delighted.
[01:02:26] Unknown:
Yes. So, Nikki, if people want to find out more about your work, about your books, about your school? Where can they find more information?
[01:02:36] Unknown:
If they Google the Plant Medicine School, it's the plantmedicineschool.com. It's just changing to we've we've revamped everything. But if they if they Google that, they will get to the old website, which is going to transform into our new website very soon. So they can go there. They can also email me, and, actually, there's a contact form on the website now, and so that makes it really easy. If they go there and make sure they're on the Squarespace site, although it's gonna switch over soon. So if they just do the plantmedicineschool.com, and there's a contact form, and they can message, and it has information about our different courses.
And we we're gonna be putting a a a load of community articles up in there with, nice stuff for people to there's things like, little films of garden walks, and there'll be lots of recipes and all sorts of things going up there. So that's, what we'll be spending our time doing over the next while.
[01:03:42] Unknown:
Looking forward to that.
[01:03:44] Unknown:
Great.
[01:03:45] Unknown:
Thank you so much for your time. And dear wildy that is listening, thank you so much. Hope to see you in the next episode. And meanwhile, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye bye.
[01:03:59] Unknown:
Thanks. Bye now.
[01:04:05] Unknown:
A warm thank you for listening, Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there. But for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Welcome to Wild, the podcast for wildlings just like you. Wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. My name is Liebe Gollle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 02/2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together, we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and plants. And that's why for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you're ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to Wild.
[00:02:13] Unknown:
Welcome to the Wild podcast. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Nikki Dorell. She's an experienced herbalist in Ireland, and she has over forty years of experience in plant medicine. She's a she's a passionate advocate for the deep relationship between plants and people, and she's the author of the book Conversation with Plants. And she trains the next generation of herbalists in the plant medicine school. Today, we'll dive into the landscape of herbalists in Ireland, exploring the wisdom of plants and the profound ways we can reconnect with nature through herbal medicine. Welcome, Nikki.
[00:02:55] Unknown:
Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here with you.
[00:03:00] Unknown:
So what first drew you to herbs and herbal medicine? Was it, something that already was present in your childhood, or or how did it get started?
[00:03:11] Unknown:
Yeah. I it's something that I was fascinated from a very young age, a combination of things. I think, back in sort of the sixties, where would have been when I was small. And, there were lots of the children's books had little bits about herbs and herbalism. Not just herbalism, but the whole thing about, herbs being used a lot more in food and all of and the whole cultural side of it. And I can remember when I was very small, you know, go you'd go on holidays, and in the gift shops, there'd be little things like herb pillows, the hops pillows, and things like that.
And I just always found this fascinating. My grandmother had a little herb garden. My dad would have grown a lot of vegetables, and got us into, you know, the foraging, eating the weeds, because, you know, sometimes they grew better than the vegetables. So, you know, it all started very young. I mean, I I I think I got my first packet of herb seeds when I was about nine years old. I got first two herbal books when I was about 11 and just found it fascinating from very young.
[00:04:34] Unknown:
Wow. That's that's a long time you have been working with herbs, and you're still doing it. And how how has your understanding of herbalism evolved over the past forty years?
[00:04:47] Unknown:
Well, I suppose it's, it's yes. It's gone through many different stages. So when when it came to sort of finishing at school, I would have loved to go straight on to train to be a herbalist, but, I didn't know where to do that. So instead, I studied plant and horticultural science, which I'm really glad I did. You know, there was there was a stage where I was like, was that a detour? But, no, it's really fed, my sort of understanding of things and so on. And I I worked, as a re research scientist for about five years after college.
And then I discovered a way one could study to be a herbalist. So I I did, the mainstream, school of phytotherapy training in The UK. And but alongside that, I would always have been doing my own studies and fascinated by growing the herbs, using them in food, making things myself, and so on. And I suppose that the training that I did was quite a sort of medical herbalist training. When I came out of it, I did feel a little bit like there's some gaps there. I had always been somebody who would have, done the cooking and the forage foods and those kind of things, and I would have learned a lot about making creams and so on when I did an aromatherapy training as well.
But it still felt a little bit sort of very medical. I mean, my my parents my dad was a doctor. My my mom was a nurse. But when they trained, herbs was still a huge part of what was used in medicine, actually. So, so from there, it was sort of finding my own way around some of the things, especially the whole thing about, people, plants being able to communicate with each other, and exploring all of that. Very ironically, one of the people I worked within the research world has now become one of the main people talking about plant intelligence and the whole plant neurobiology and that side of things. I was very surprised when the name cropped up. It was good to to see that he'd gone in that direction.
But it's wonderful because now there is all that stuff in the scientific world that is validating what we would know from really reconnecting with our authentic, sort of indigenosity or natural human being self where we know that we can go out, and if we're in the right state of mind and quieten us our minds and so on, we can sit with a plant and feel the communications from it. That would be something that we would we would work with with our students a lot because we would feel, that it is very much not just what you read in books, but the relationship you have with the plants. And that's something that I think is so important.
I think over the last sort of ten years or so on, and it's partly because what's happening in the world at the moment, but also, the whole idea of we have co evolved with the plants around us, and these plants are the best healers. Now, of course, we love using a bit of cinnamon or different things than they've there used to be that these trade routes that were very much, you know, before sort of the more colonialist attitude. There's been trade and plants moving around the world ever since they've been humans, really. So but this idea that the local plants are important, and by having, this relationship with our plants and where we are living, then that is healing in itself as well, and it reconnects us into our place in nature, but also these plants around us. And a lot of that information had been a bit eroded. So we've had great fun, not just with the the people in Ireland, but I'm I'm very lucky to have made connection with herbalists, in different areas of Europe.
And we're we were very lucky to have students from all across Europe. And that exchange of information, which I feel used to flow a lot better. Getting that flow of information back is so important, because you notice, like, if you read, a herbal book from, say, France or from Greece, the one slightly different plants being used, but also different characteristics of the plants, different aspects of who they are are focused on. So I'm, like, I'm I suppose I'm one of those people who it's like plants in my life. They're my you know, this is this is my way of life. This is my passion. Anything to do with plants, I just love. And to we moved about five years ago to somewhere where we have about five acres. We have some woodland. There's a river on the boundary.
We have the opportunity to have a lot of plants growing here, seeing which plants thrive, and so on. And as I say, this this learning more rather than using the arnica from the Alps, which is really good for the people in the Alps, we we would tend to use daisies now and find them exceptionally good. You know, the idea of using things like the rosebay willow herb, finding out exactly what a magnificent healer some somewhere you know, a plant like yarrow or plantain or nettle, some of these very ordinary plants surround us. They're not ordinary.
[00:10:51] Unknown:
They're amazing. You know? They are not.
[00:10:54] Unknown:
No. And it's the it's incredible, and seeing seeing how people waken up with, this connection rather than just brown bottles on shelves, but getting to know the plants, realizing there's so much more to working with herbs than just taking tinctures. But also, you know and the ways we can work with the plants, they're not just about our physical health. They work on us physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and they are sentient beings, so we can have a relationship with them. So I don't know if that answered my your question. Yes.
[00:11:37] Unknown:
Yes. And I I I like what you said about exchanging ideas and experiences with other herbalists from from Europe because sometimes I am I have this sense of grief of knowledge that is lost, especially here in Belgium. And for me, it's really inspiring to it's like a jigsaw because sometimes I I feel like, oh, this is another piece of the puzzle that I just found, and I found it by talking to this, herbalist from Bulgaria or from from Norway or and that makes it really, really interesting, I think. Yeah.
[00:12:18] Unknown:
I think this is very important because I feel a lot of the knowledge hasn't been lost. We just have to work out where to look for it. Exactly. It is that exchange with people. Like, we we have students for and and sort of friends in, you know, Greece, in the Scandinavian countries, in Eastern Europe, France, kind of Croatia, Spain, Italy. And there's this lovely flow of information, and I think that it's so valuable to because there has been a little bit of that sort of monoculturing of, herbal medicine. It's sort like, all big you know, in some of the the books and so on, it's a little bit of, oh, you know, your local herbs aren't good enough. You need the ones, the exotic ones, and so on. And it it's just not true. I think the older people in places still have a lot of knowledge. And I think I was looking the wrong the wrong place, as in we're very lucky in Ireland. In the nineteen thirties, the folklore commission sent people out to talk to all the older people.
And so there's this huge repository of information, some of it in Irish, some of it in English, and it's in it's, in the folklore commission. And, actually, how what's her name? Hatfield. Is she? Henrietta Hatfield, I think. A lot of her book is based on some of that information from Ireland. But you've also you've got that in other countries as well, where some of that information from older people is there. And I think the other thing we have to remember is we can kind of connect directly with the plants to get. And I I am noticing at the moment that the plants have sort of you know, the world has changed a lot in the last hundred years, an awful lot. A lot more than the hundred years before that in many ways.
And and the plants are so adaptable. And, you know, when we talk to them and we we ask them, you know, they go, like, well, no. We can do it like this now, sort of thing. So I I I feel I I I know what you mean about the grief. I think a lot of my grief is around how the humans are feeling quite lost in it all. Mhmm. Mhmm. And as soon I I'm amazed, you know, even when we just do a little plant ID walk or something. You take people out to the local woods, and they're all interested, but you get them all to stop and do some breeding with a large tree or whatever, and they they go, oh my goodness. This is this is so I feel so much better, and so on. So it's I think I feel a lot of it is about helping the humans back into their Mhmm. Their natural self.
And then they get so excited, you know, about the fact that there is all this amazing medicine and so on all around us, stuff that actually, when we work with the plants, this is not stuff that pollutes the world, and destroys ecosystems. This this way of living actually is part of the healing of the world as well. Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:15:45] Unknown:
Yes. It always surprises me as well when I have a group of people here, and I see them leaving after class. They look so happy. You can really see it in their faces. They feel more whole. They have this the sense of belonging. Mhmm. It just never ceases to amaze me how how deep and profound that really is. Yeah. So I totally hear what you're saying. Yes. Yes. And I want to, talk a little bit more about this plant's consciousness. Like, how do you define that, and how can herbalists, like, cultivate a deeper relationship with plants?
[00:16:25] Unknown:
That's a and, that's a a wonderful question. I think there's several ways. So myself and my husband have evolved, a a a sort of simple system of exercises called nature resonance medicine because, and with this, we we we show the students how to do this. It's very much, a step of exercises, which when we have compared it with what various indigenous people and so on do, it's very similar. And we were amazed because we we sort of sat down and did our bit of work and developed our system and started looking around and discovered that other people are doing something quite similar.
So the first thing the first thing that gets in people's way is the amount of stress and tension and being distracted. So we start with a very simple breathing, and relaxing, and then working through the body, doing a fractional relaxation to help them get into their own bodies, because a lot of people are kind of floating above their heads or Mhmm. Wherever they are. And then we do a little bit of slow movement outside to help us, so very similar to what Titchenahan would have spoken about the slow movement. And then we get them to work with their senses and really feel into their senses and understand how their senses work. So we work with the, the primary senses of sight and sound and touch and taste and hearing and smell.
And we noticed the slow movement actually helps to open the senses up very well. So we do that, and then we get them into the heart resonant field because this is, a lot of our nonverbal and emotional communication. So they do a simple exercise to help, get in tune with that and then get into, the place of loving appreciation and the sort of innocent child energy. Because when we're kids, we have no problem with doing this stuff. You know? Exactly. And so it's and it's not like shutting off the left neocortex or the neocortex because that can be very helpful as well, because it helps us to remember, oh, this one has five petals. Oh, the ones that have yellow flowers are often good for the liver.
The all of those things. It's not like you have to shut anything off. It's making friends between the different parts of ourselves. And and this this series of exercises is very much to get people okay. The communications are not gonna be verbal from a plant. You know? But they may give you information by their shapes, their color, that kind of thing. They may use some of your memories or an association because the heart and the limbic center and so on, connect up together. And the plants have the equivalency of the same heart center, and they do this electromagnetic resonance.
So this is where we communicate with each other. So people will sometimes feel an emotional tone. They may get a sensation somewhere in their body. They may have a memory, of, say, being at home or, a song, or they may get a a strong color that's associate like, for instance, a blue color is often associated with relaxation and sleep or, what whatever those, you know, different things. So it's about without sort of shutting down the, sort of the neocortex. It's about being open to receiving information in other ways. We also do this with, say, the whole thing about how the gut brain and the sense of taste.
So we we work with tastings and so on and noticing, you know, that mindful way of rather than, just drinking your cup of herb tea, actually swirling it around and noticing what happens. Some some people work a lot with, say, drawing the plants as well because that gets another part of their brain involved and working with the the smell, all of these things. So there there's a few different bits we use, but it's a lot of we we feel a lot of it is schooling as well, saying to people it's all about a data dump into your brain. You you know, how do you make these connections? So some people love drawing, some people don't.
Some people love, making the teas or, you know, that's all growing the little baby plants and seeing them grow up. It's like, what will build your relationship with the plant? And then as I say, the nature resonance sequence really helps people get into that place where they're able to be calm and in a in a more sort of their more natural human space where they're open to the idea that, you know, conscious communication is not just a verbal thing. It isn't between humans either. You know? And there's you know, everything around us has a consciousness, and, you know, plants in particular have huge sentience. We often say, like, the big trees, we expect them to have sort of a big presence, and they they often do. But sometimes it's a tiny little or something that goes, like, hi.
You know, it's a bit like some of the small birds like a wren or a robin. They seem to have huge, sort of presence in the place. So, yeah, and it's not not being embarrassed to talk about how some of your best friends are plants. You know?
[00:22:48] Unknown:
I like that. Yeah. It it had it has always bothered me. Like, I don't even know if that is an expression in English, but what I hear people often say in Dutch or in Flemish is, my plant broke. And I say, no. It didn't break. A table can break or a chair breaks or a laptop breaks, but it dies. It actually dies. It's a living creature. It's a living being. And this is, for a lot of people, just mind blowing if I tell them that it's it's alive, but it really is.
[00:23:25] Unknown:
Yeah. I I I think it's quite interesting because I think a lot of people, it's like well, they that that whole thing around, the plant blindness thing, how people don't see plants. And I'm like, that's terrible. How sad. What a sad word. But but, also, I think that a lot of people do quietly have that relationship with their houseplant or whatever, that they know when they sit next to their spider plant or their peace lily, it it they feel better, but they go like, yeah. Well, you maybe can do that with your dog or cat, but maybe, you know, maybe normal people don't do it with a plant. But a lot of people do actually do it. So I think I I think that's another aspect.
And the exciting thing about the whole area of plant neurobiology and all of this is I mean, there's a big kind of thing in plant science at the moment. There's a little group of plant neurobiologists going, no. This is an actual thing, and and the others, like, plant scientists going, that's rubbish. But it's great that there are people like Paco Calvo, writing about these things and talking about okay. They don't have the same anatomy and physiology, but these are the scar corresponding things within them. And they do have intelligence. They can learn. They have memory. This is how their, new they don't have the same kind of nervous system, but it's like their vascular system is also a nervous system. So I find this all very exciting. It it doesn't quite make me go, oh, I wish I'd stayed in plant science to until this happened.
But it's great to see it happening, and it really kind of, feeds into what we actually know in our roots is the case. So it's great.
[00:25:15] Unknown:
Yes. It's very, very interesting. And by all means, let's redefine normal people and what normal people do. Right? Yes. And I was I was wondering how much how much of the the viewpoint of the Irish culture is at play here. Because, I have recently learned from some Irish people that, and I love that. They told me that, the name in Irish for yarrow is like father of the soil. And I thought that is so amazing because it it immediately connects the plants to other plants or to other elements. And I thought, this just shows this view of interconnection.
And I wonder how much is that still a thing in the Irish culture or in the Irish way of thinking.
[00:26:15] Unknown:
It's quite interesting. In Ireland, there are the Guelph top areas where people speak Irish every you know, that's the the language of the areas. And there's no question I'm not fluent in Irish, but there's no question that so much of the Irish language than as you say, the names and so on, very much, a poetic description. But, then, not everybody would be speaking Irish, but there is a huge because in Ireland, you would have the the cures where people inherit a cure for a particular condition or whatever. And there's a lot of, if you like, res respect for, the the old ways of things and the nettle soup in the spring, these kind of things. And the the fairy trees, there's one of the most ways in Ireland, they they changed where they were gonna put it because there was one of the fairy trees. An old hawshorn tree was on the route that they wanted to plow through, and it was like, no. We can't do that.
So I I should explain. I I was I was born in The UK. I have lived in Ireland most of my life, but I'm I'm a a mixture of different cultures. So I yes. I've I've spent most of my life in Ireland, but I also have an influence from my mom would have been from Grenada in The Caribbean, and an influence from, I'd have a lot of Scottish ancestors as well. So I'm a little bit of a mixture, but I do definitely oh, in Ireland, I in rural areas, there would still be a lot of interest in, these kind of things. And I think everybody in Ireland still knows the the fairy tree is it's so deep in our culture here, and the elder trees, you must respect them. There's still a lot of that there, and little vestiges and so on, I suppose, is the way I'd look at.
But then we have the influence within sort of the herbal world of the more sort of medical herbal training because, if you like, there there would have been as I say, there were the the cures passed down. There would have been the healers, and the sort of seventh sun thing and all of that. And then it would have been and there would have been a lot of herbs grown in Ireland up to the up to probably the second World War for use in mainstream medicine. There was quite a strong connection there, but then there were the influences of things like the famines and so on where people got more disconnected from their land and their heritage, but a lot of people wanting to reclaim that as well.
So, bit of a mixture, really.
[00:29:20] Unknown:
Right. Yes. It's it's interesting to to see. So all the people I've interviewed so far throughout Europe, the legal framework is, like, completely different in every European country, it seems, for, herbalism. And, so could we compare the the legal framework for herbalism in Ireland? Is it, like, the same as in England or similar?
[00:29:48] Unknown:
It's quite similar. The UK and Ireland are both under common law rather than Napoleonic law like France or that kind of thing. So it's similar, but, and so, basically, the same thing of, anybody has a right to to be a herbalist. Basically, there is nothing preventing anyone because that's part of common law. But one slight difference between Ireland and The UK is the number of herbs that are restricted. We have a bigger list of herbs that are restricted in Ireland. Uh-huh. But that would be more some of the, not not the indigenous herbs. I mean, okay. You know, we can't use we can't use, foxglove, obviously.
But when we're not allowed to use comfrey internally at all, herbalists are allowed to use Saint John's wort hypericum, but it's not legal to sell it over the counter. Okay. But, the a lot of the herbs that we are not permitted to use would be more like phytolacca, which is from The US or that at different stages. At one stage, I was on the medicines board herbal subcommittee. That's when the whole, thing from The UK came in, the traditional medicines thing. They had they had about 10 of us on the committee, and they had three herbalists on the committee. So very interested in, you know, having herbalists as part of the framework.
Mhmm. One or two herbs that they were, like, talking about getting rid of, we just sort of very politely explained the science and so on and said, you know, it was more about what those herbs can be used for. Like, for instance, they were looking at hawthorn in a worried fashion because it's used for heart conditions. So they were saying, no. Hawthorn berries have been used to make jelly, and, the leaves have been used as food for Yes. Exactly. So, you should be more worried about sage. That's much stronger, but sage is a culinary herb, so we're not worried about that one. And then then there were a couple of others where they were, like, not sure about it. So we can't, you know, we can't use, as they say, phytolacca, we can't use. But I think most countries in Europe can't use, kava kava now.
Some of the other things, gelsamium and so on. But we have loads of wonderful herbs growing here that do a magnificent job. When I qualified, there was a period when Hypericum could not be used by Herbalist, but we went to see the then minister for health and explained who we were, and he said, fine. You can have that and the ginkgo bag. But what I will say is, during that time when we couldn't use those, two herbs, what people remembered was, actually, you know, hype there are so many other herbs that you can use. You know, there isn't just one condition called depression. It's like, where is it arising from in the body?
And we've got so many herbs that can help with low mood and depression, and it actually enlarged our practice. So, and I I very rarely use Saint John's book, actually, because so often something else is more appropriate when you really listen to the person and tune in. Mhmm. And though those skills that we use for tuning in with the plants can be very valuable with with the people as well. Absolutely. Yes. The words don't always say. And we use some a little bit of pulse diagnosis as well so that you're really being able to, kind of assess, okay. Where where is this imbalance? It's not just a chemical imbalance that needs correcting words. Mhmm. Mhmm. And the same with not being able to use the ginkgo, we remembered using rosemary and hawthorn and all these other herbs.
So, you know, it's it it it's such it it enlarged our practice a lot, I think. And, I think one of the nice things here is that there's a real diversity of people practicing. Practicing. So some that would draw a lot more on sort of, say, some of the folklore and those traditions. Other people very much on the, I forgot what they're called. But on the the the sort of herbal practitioners who were not necessarily doctors, but they were the family herbalists for the big families in Ireland. And Mhmm. So there's a there's there's different approaches, and I think this is very valuable. Some people say I will only use herbs that are native to here. So there's a very famous herbalist. He's pretty much retired now, but a guy called Sean Boylan, and he's a seventh son.
And he has his key group of herbs, and some of them are ones that most people wouldn't think of using, like Oxeye Daisy or Knapweed or whatever. We use Oxeye Daisy ourselves. But they're they're all much more the the herbs of Ireland. His practice
[00:35:25] Unknown:
Yes. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it's particularly interesting how there was the possibility of a dialogue between the herbalists and the government, which I think we are missing in Belgium. This is unthinkable, actually, at the moment. So I think that is very interesting. And I'm thinking about, yeah, maybe we should connect more in Belgium to to really have this conversation going with the government. I don't think they're very open to conversation at the moment, but you never know.
[00:36:09] Unknown:
Well, I think we were quite fortunate in some ways in the, one of the pharmacy departments. The the people teaching in that were very, passionate about plant medicine themselves. And then so the I mean, that whole thing of how we ended up with three herbalists on that board, that board is now defunct, I think. I stood down from about twelve years ago. But it was it it was a series of fortunate connections in some ways. And then we we have our own register here, the Irish register of herbalists, and they would have it's it's it's a small country. People know each other and so on. You know? It's a little bit how things are done here. I it it has some pluses and some minuses, I think.
But do you do you have a professional organization in Belgium for herbalists? Or
[00:37:11] Unknown:
Well, we do. But the thing is there is there is not a thing like medical herbalism in Belgium because it's it's not allowed. And then some people, like, they they do their education in The US or in in The UK, and so they are medical herbalists, and they want to practice in Belgium. And the government doesn't really know what to do with these people. It's kind of officially as if the government is saying it's not possible. It's not a possibility the herbs don't work. But on the other hand, we also have this list of forbidden herbs, which is quite long compared to the neighboring con countries. And then I think, yeah. But what is it? Do the herbs not work, or are they dangerous? You know, you you cannot say both at the same time. They cannot be the thing is that because there is no it's not officially licensed or there is no so any school can, like, organize, like, a three nights in a row course after which you can call yourself a herbalist, which is not okay. I mean, we both know that you cannot become a herbalist in three evenings. Right?
So, that's a bit of a thing. And, yes, there are some schools that are are really professional and that give a good training. But, nevertheless, it's not a training to become a medical herbalist. So it's, you know, more yes. You get this this knowledge, but it's, you can use it in your own family, but that's pretty much it. And you can teach others, but you cannot practice. So that's kind of the legal framework we have here here in Belgium at the moment, but I don't see it changing anywhere soon.
[00:39:02] Unknown:
Yeah. I I suppose that, you know, this is similar to, say, countries like France. You can't be medical. Yes. Yes. You can't do a medical diagnosis, but you can use tongue and pulse diagnosis. You you can run workshops, and you can suggest to people, maybe, you know, take some Cal Mart tea or whatever. Yeah. I I think there's a lot of ways to be a herbalist, and I do feel the whole thing, we we're delighted that so many of our graduates, run workshops in their community. Mhmm. I just think I feel like the more people are out there teaching people about how amazing herbs are, then it it switches where, you know, where the ball lies.
And it's you know, the more people who want to use herbs, the more likely it is that the the governments might make some shifts in the right direction. Okay. It's important to make sure that it's not a top down approach from Mhmm. Government. So, you know, because I I think it's, like, it's important. You see, it's a little bit like when a lot of the the herbal courses started in the universities in The UK. They were all science degrees. So the only herbs were that were taught were really the ones that had peer reviewed papers around them. Mhmm. And it had to be science. So some of the more energetic and sort of artisan aspects of it were cut out of the curriculum, and that wasn't good for Mhmm. Herbalism.
It cut out a lot of the very valuable what makes herbalism into such an amazing area. But as as those courses have closed and it's going back to sort of some more independent schools, some of those things are coming back in. And I think that's I think it's it's great. You know? Mhmm. I think, you know, there was a stage where people were talking about sort of, you know, statutory regulation of herbalists. And, actually, most herbalists were like, we don't want that because that means people will be telling us who we have to be, and and that's not good.
And, you know, the major you know, herbalists are are passionate about herbs and using them safely and using them effectively, and spreading that knowledge. So it's like we we're very good at regulating ourselves. Thank you.
[00:41:43] Unknown:
Yes. I I believe that as well, and I think we really have to keep walking the talk. And then, you know, people people do get inspired just by how what what you're doing and how you're doing it and yes. Yes. And I wanted to talk a bit about the plant medicine school that you founded. Mhmm. Because, I was thinking about how how before the school existed, how accessible is it to or or was it to have decent herbal schooling in Ireland?
[00:42:22] Unknown:
Well, in Ireland, the main most people who wanted to train as a herbalist, would train sort of the distance courses from the school of phytotherapy and so on in The UK, or they'd go over to a degree there. Okay. There was also the the College of Naturopathic Medicine opened up here at some stage, but they're they're they're more naturopathy. So that although there is a herbal stream, it was, you know, a mixture. They would teach different things. So, and then there was, one very traditional school, the school of Bridget's Healing. No. Bridget's Healing Academy.
And that was a three or four year training, and involve had a lot with the folklore and that aspect. Mhmm. Mhmm. I think those were the main ones that were here. So when I when I started the way the school started was I, I've always loved teaching. And after I qualified, I I thought, well, I'd like to do some little evening courses in using herbs at home and, maybe something like how to plant up your herb garden and, well, you know, different little courses like that. And after I've been running them for a couple of years, some of the people who've done those courses said, we really enjoyed that. We we wanna go to another level.
So I set up the Herbal Apprenticeship, which is a two year course, sort of more the community herbalist, not somebody who's gonna be diagnosing or anything like that Mhmm. Or who could get people in love with the plants and make sort of simple recommendations, a bit like the kind of stuff you can do in France and so on. And that's that was all I was interested in. But the universe had a different idea. So, actually, just to say because I found like you said, well, you know, when people get to do that kind of training and they they they taste things made by the, you know, say, wild pesto and so on. They go, oh my goodness. This is really live food. It it changed the changes their settings, if you like, and they they remember what it's like to to be a natural person.
But what happened then was a group of people well, it's a very long complicated story, but, anyway, a group I was asked to add, a clinical practitioner training on. It was something I would not have imagined doing. So I set it I set it up, and it has evolved a lot over the twelve years, I think, we've been running it for. It's evolved a lot from being quite a sort of medical herbalist training to having those aspects of, you know, differential diagnosis, clinical science, all of that, but we've brought in things like tongues and pulses. We've brought in a lot more around the nature resonance work.
We would, you know, we would say, okay. Some of the older ways of working with patients are more valuable because they are not not that we ever were treating them like the the arthritis or the whatever it is, but a little bit more sort of into what is underlying. You know, where when do we go in here to actually help this person into a better state of of health and well-being. So there's been an evolution. I mean, we we still have a really nice diversity of t teachers, and some of them are very much medical herbalists, and then some of them will be more, from the Association of Master Herbalists who have, very kindly, recognized or accredited our course in the last year.
We don't use iridology or those things, but we would bring in, like, the naturopathic principles of the importance of good nutrition, fresh air, exercise, relaxation, all of those things, which was always in it. But I think we've found ourselves more able to use maybe a softer language around some things. Yeah. So it's not what I thought I was gonna be doing, but we we have a lovely team around us. And, you know, as the school has developed, we've got a a really great team of people involved in the teaching, and it's great. And I think at this stage, because, you know, my hair's getting a bit grayer and so on, I'm I'm seeing how I can step back a little bit and let some of those people step in and and take on some of those bits so that I can go and play with the plants more.
[00:47:36] Unknown:
Yes. I I love how you say there are so many ways to be a herbalist because it's true. And it's it's exactly that diversity that makes it so beautiful, I think, that, you know, everybody has their own unique experiences in life and their own unique characters and personality, and and it mixes in with the herbs. And, you know, it becomes their own thing. And, indeed, for some people, it's more the medical herbalism, and for other people, it's more like the folklore thing. And and I really like that. I really appreciate that because there is herbalism has many, many faces, and that's exactly what makes it so beautiful to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think the other thing about each herbalist being themselves,
[00:48:25] Unknown:
hopefully, is how the the relationship with a particular plant can be, you know, slightly different. You know, one person will say, oh, yeah. No. I use Yarrow like this for this or whatever. Another person goes, my goodness. I'd I do you know, when I'm working with Yarrow, it's something completely different, but the Yarrow works with both of them. You know? And it's not it's not that one person's approach is the right one, another person's is the wrong one. Okay? Mhmm. Some wrong approaches, but there's so many right approaches. And the way that some people will work mainly with tinctures, other people will say no. Bathing with the herbs is the the way to use them or, you know, using flower essences as part of what they use or the all the different ways in which you can relate with the herbs and how they can be medicines for people.
I it's it's just fascinating. I mean, we we very much with the students and in my own practice, we would use a lot of aromatic waters. We would use powders. I do use I use tinctures as well, but we use a lot of, aceta vinegar tinctures because we they're really effective. I don't I don't use glycerine because it's sticky. So but we use we we do infused honeys and things. And so but
[00:49:50] Unknown:
Right. Okay. Now Yes. It's that's something I was all all also wondering, Like, how easy is it if you don't make your own tinctures or your own, herbal blends, how easy is it to find good quality, herbal products in Ireland?
[00:50:08] Unknown:
Well, we like, dried herbs, we would order mainly from, Germany, from gout aromatic waters and things we would get from and essential oils from France. Post Brexit, there isn't a huge supply chain into Ireland, but we've started to look more towards Europe. So we do make quite a lot of our own medicines here. But as I say, where we we haven't got enough supply, we're we're hoping to move more towards self sufficiency with the area that we have here. There isn't anybody making tinctures in Ireland at the moment. Oh, really? No. They they all gave up.
That's a that's a completely different story. So, I I think a lot of people are looking at other others' forms of teas. And quite frankly, I I actually think that teas are more effective than tinctures if you can persuade people to to drink them. Mhmm. Mhmm. I do find the powders are really good as well, and the aromatic waters and so on. So there are there are different people looking at setting up, growing, and processing an island, but for a lot of people, it's doing it for themselves. And as I say, we've shifted because we were so used to sort of just, like, ordering stuff from The UK, but that's not the name anymore.
So but I think it's actually had a huge value of making us question why were we using tinctures for everyone? Because tinctures have a value, but, actually, they're not always the best form of medicine for everyone. Mhmm. And it sort of enlarged our way of working with the herbs and expanded that. So, I'm not being a ridiculous optimist. It sometimes sounds a bit like that. I think it's helped us to remember that it that wasn't the way that herbs were used all the time. And I'm I have to say bay you know, the whole thing of bathing with herbs, either foot baths or a full body bath with herbs, is a fantastic way of working with the herbs.
So I think, you know, that's why I'm saying, I think it's actually done us a favor in a lot of ways to actually help us remember There are many more ways in which we can work with the plants and the plants Mhmm. With us.
[00:52:39] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes. And I hear you're on the bathing with herbs, and I think there is another factor in that as well that you you need to take time for it. Mhmm. You know? And this is exactly why herb herbal baths, I think, are not popular anymore or not a common thing anymore because it takes time, and every everything has to go so fast these days. But it's really interesting to look at these herbs and and use them in a herbal bath and take the time for it. And time is such an important factor in our work. Like, making connection with the plants, it's not like in one second, you need to take a little bit of time for that, before you can find a state of openness and you know?
And, yes, I think I think this may be one of the big lessons that plants have to teach us. Take your time. Don't hurry. Don't don't, you know, take your time. Nature doesn't hurry up. You know? The season just go the way they're going and and, you know, like like, as a forager, this springtime, it was, yeah, it was a bit challenging because we had a very cold spring, and I had to wait for a longer time before I could harvest my nettles and my, garlic mustard and everything. But it was okay because, you know, there is no way I could speed up nature or or it it it would not make any sense to be frustrated about this. You know? Things were just the way they were, and it was good. You know? And, yeah, this is this is a lesson we have to learn as humans, I think.
Yeah. Definitely. And I was also wondering, like, do you see influences of of climate change in in Ireland and the work that you're doing with plants? Because as a forager here on the Mainland and and Belgium, I can definitely see it. I can see that the seasons changing, and, like, sometimes it's very wet, and sometimes it's very dry. And and it's a challenge for some plants, but it's also an opportunity for other plants.
[00:54:53] Unknown:
I, yeah, that's something I've asked myself about. We I think we're a lot less affected than the Mainland is. We have had we've had some pretty bad storms, in the last couple of years, but we've always had storms. We've had some very wet winters, but that's fit that's something that's not unusual. We we've had a couple of nonexistent summers, like, literally years. Like, the sun didn't shine for, like, you know, nearly two years, it felt like. But Painful. Yeah. It was bad. But then we've had you see, then we've had the ones like the Mediterranean summer, and we're hoping that this year is framing up to be one like that. So we haven't had the same extremes of, say, floods and droughts and so on.
If you if if one looks back over the last sort of fifty, sixty years, it's like, oh, no. Well, we had worst droughts in, say, the seventies, than now. So I think we are fortunate that we haven't had some of the extremes that the Mainland has. Mhmm. And, yeah, it's like really looking at talking to some of the farmers and so on, and we're we're really going, is there a big effect here, or is it the natural ups and downs of Mhmm. Climate? You know? I I it's hard to say, and I wouldn't like, you know, I wouldn't like to say it one way or the other. Actually, I I suppose the other thing is I moved from I lived in Cork most of my life, and we I'm we moved up to Oxford Five Years ago.
The difference between the two areas, you know, it's a Mhmm. A small country, but it's, it's a lot more sunny and everything up here than it would be that well, it's sunny down in Cork, but it's a lot moister than up here.
[00:57:05] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:57:06] Unknown:
There's a huge variation over the whole, island has quite a big variation going on. I think it's very hard to tell, actually, But I think we are far more fortunate than a lot of places on the Mainland.
[00:57:21] Unknown:
Okay. Interesting. Thank you. So what I was wondering, how with all of your experience of the past forty years, how do you see herbalism in Ireland and in Europe evolving over the next twenty to thirty years?
[00:57:39] Unknown:
I think that's an impossible question to ask, but I'll explain why. Sorry. No. I'll explain why. I mean, that's what I'd love to see is a lot more of this networking throughout Europe, of people and people who are passionate about not just, reclaiming the the knowledge, but also helping it to evolve. The reason why the reason why I say it's impossible to answer is because I think we're living in such an interesting time. And it's very I wouldn't like to say where I think anything is going in the next twenty years because there's so much going on.
And I think there's, you know, there's different lanes, if you like, or even different realities. So there's the Mhmm. We're going, we really want the community and the stuff that's, you know, good for the ecosystems and the environment and so on. And there's the people who want to live in the virtual world. And there's all the political stuff that's going on. There's so much going on. I think it's very hard to say what will happen. My hope is that I'm not I mean, my sense is that more and more people is, feeling like they want to be more in touch with their local environment. They are seeing the value in natural health care, and all of this kind of thing.
It's hard to say where it's gonna go would be what what I'd have to say. I do feel there'll be a lot more localizing, you know, of these are the the let's use what we can grow around us. Mhmm. I mean, like, we we the climate here means we we do have some plants that we grow here, like, say, immortal helichrysum, and and rosemary isn't actually a native here, but we use loads of Oh. Yeah. It's not actually native. Really? Yeah. So but but we've been growing it here for so long. And then there are some of the sort of Chinese herbs, like the Chinese skullcap and cardinopsis and so on, will grow really happily here.
I I I I hope that that it will become much more something that plant medicine is a central part of people's lives again. That's what I'd like to do. As I say, the the world is is very interesting at the moment, and I wouldn't hope so.
[01:00:12] Unknown:
Yes. And I can definitely see the the growing interest. I I see that as well in my courses. Yes. And I I'm thinking back about what you said in the beginning of our talk, how your parents in the medical fields that the herbal knowledge was still part of the medical fields and the medical education at that moment. And I'm wondering if there is ever going to be a time when this will be reality again. I really wonder. It's an interesting thing to think about, I I think. The interesting thing in Ireland is that pharmacists,
[01:00:47] Unknown:
when they're training, as part of their degree, they still do a big section on, plant medicines.
[01:00:55] Unknown:
Okay.
[01:00:56] Unknown:
But they've taken it out of the curriculum in The UK. And I suppose, like, in places like Italy and France, they run postgraduate training in Hertz, but only for medical doctors. I don't know. I think it's another one of those. We'll just have to see what happens in the world because a lot of there's a lot of shifting going on. So I think I think the best thing we can do is just teach the knowledge to as many people as we can, and it won't do any harm, and it may do a lot of good.
[01:01:34] Unknown:
Yes. I couldn't agree more, really. Yes. I would I would like to finish with, a quote from your website, actually, because I I found it so beautiful. And it says, as we reclaim the ability to know the plants growing outside our doors, the value of working with local plants, which in recent times have often been overlooked as powerful healers and valuable nutrition, we will realize that the real library of herbal medicine, the true learning of meaning is in the garden, the meadow, the forest, in whatever places we meet our with our green allies and listen to their stories and truths.
[01:02:20] Unknown:
I love that. I really love that. Great. I'm I'm delighted.
[01:02:26] Unknown:
Yes. So, Nikki, if people want to find out more about your work, about your books, about your school? Where can they find more information?
[01:02:36] Unknown:
If they Google the Plant Medicine School, it's the plantmedicineschool.com. It's just changing to we've we've revamped everything. But if they if they Google that, they will get to the old website, which is going to transform into our new website very soon. So they can go there. They can also email me, and, actually, there's a contact form on the website now, and so that makes it really easy. If they go there and make sure they're on the Squarespace site, although it's gonna switch over soon. So if they just do the plantmedicineschool.com, and there's a contact form, and they can message, and it has information about our different courses.
And we we're gonna be putting a a a load of community articles up in there with, nice stuff for people to there's things like, little films of garden walks, and there'll be lots of recipes and all sorts of things going up there. So that's, what we'll be spending our time doing over the next while.
[01:03:42] Unknown:
Looking forward to that.
[01:03:44] Unknown:
Great.
[01:03:45] Unknown:
Thank you so much for your time. And dear wildy that is listening, thank you so much. Hope to see you in the next episode. And meanwhile, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye bye.
[01:03:59] Unknown:
Thanks. Bye now.
[01:04:05] Unknown:
A warm thank you for listening, Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there. But for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Introduction to Wild Podcast
Meet Nikki Dorell: A Journey in Herbalism
The Evolution of Herbalism Knowledge
Local Plants and Cultural Exchange
The Sentience of Plants
Cultivating Plant Consciousness
Irish Cultural Influence on Herbalism
Legal Framework of Herbalism in Ireland
Herbal Education and Practice in Belgium
The Plant Medicine School: A New Approach
Climate Change and Herbalism
The Future of Herbalism in Europe
