Anita Wasik is a Polish medical herbalist and biomedical scientist, based in Finland.
She specialises in chronic illness, with areas of focus including environmental illness, digestive problems, hormonal disbalance, pain and fatigue, and mental health problems such as anxiety and depression.
Always with a personal and holistic approach.
And it all started with being chronically ill herself, as she will tell you in this inspiring conversation.
About how herbs were always a part of her life and childhood memories of her grandparents using them as first aid.
About her career path from medical science to herbal medicine.
About the traditional Polish herbal practices that influenced her and how Polish folk medicine blends herbalism and spirituality.
About the need for more scientific research into herbs and plants.
About the different political and legal approach to herbal medicine in Western and Eastern EU-countries, and more specifically the differences between Poland and Finland.
About the importance of observing and listening to get to the root cause of chronic illness.
About the process of healing and not providing quick fixes.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Anita and her work here: https://www.anitawasik.com/
Or you can follow her on Instagram: @dranitawasik
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:33]
Unknown:
Welcome to Wild. The podcast for wildlings just like you. Wildlings who want to transform transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. My name is Liebergele. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 02/2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together, we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and plants. And that's why for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to wild.
[00:02:13] Unknown:
Hello, wildling. Welcome to a new episode of the wild podcast. And today, I have with me, Anita Worschik. I think I'm trying to pronounce it right. She's a Polish medical herbalist and biomedical scientist. She's, based in Finland. She specializes in chronic illnesses, integrating herbal practices with functional medicine. Her areas of focus include environmental and hormonal health, digestive issues, immune disbalance, pain and fatigue, and mental health problems. She emphasizes a holistic personalized approach and offers consultations and retreats.
Welcome, Anita, to the podcast.
[00:03:00] Unknown:
Thank you for inviting me.
[00:03:03] Unknown:
How did your journey with the plants get started? What inspired you to become a medical herbalist?
[00:03:09] Unknown:
So, actually, I would never think that I would become medical herbalist. Even the herbs were a part of my last life since childhood. So my grandparents were quite often collecting some herbs, drying them, and we were using them as the first aid, for example, during colds and flus. And later in my life, I learned that my grand grandma was self taught herbalist and that time in the villages, you know, you couldn't have easy access to doctors. So she was like kind of local therapist there. And, my my kind of career path went towards more like science, medical science, because I was always interested in human physiology, anatomy, and cell biology.
So I pursued career in biomedical science and I obtained this doctoral degree in Finland and master degree in biotechnology and molecular biology in Poland. And then I spent several years working as a scientist in Poland, Finland and Germany. And in 2016, I went for a trip. A trip, like, more exotic trip to Asia and that trip changed my life totally. So I when I returned from that trip, I started to feel quite sick. So of course I visited doctors and even tropical medicine specialists but they left me without the diagnosis. Even I was profoundly fatigued and in pain.
So that was the first moment I start to a bit explore more natural and alternative ways of diagnosis. So, when I found out what's going on with me, and that was in Poland, I well I turned towards like herbal treatment but still not a professional way from my side so I was using others people knowledge. And I started to reclaim my health slowly, but still. And that was the moment also I started to a bit question my career because I knew that as a scientist I have two options. Even I stay at academia or then I go to biotech or pharma companies. And the second option was never never for me. I felt that insight, you know, I listened to my gut feeling, and it was totally even against against me.
So I still continued at the academia, but I decided to study herbal medicine at the same time and I found a school in Great Britain. And funny enough when I started to study herbal medicine I also became quite ill again and that was profound, I would say quite profound illness for me because I developed chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, breathing difficulties, bladder pain which could last for eight months non stop, and, and constant and increasing sensitivity to chemicals, to smells, and to food. So my diet was quite limited and still, you know, even though I was studying herbal medicine, I still visited doctors, but, there was an, let's say, moment when I I decided to not go there anymore. And that was the moment when the doctor started to tell me that this is something in my head because the blood tests were normal.
And that even I I gave them, you know, a lot of information also what I react to, they still only told me, like, okay. Just keep keep writing this down for another year, and maybe you we will see what is the connection between. That was the first thing when I said, oh, no. Thank you. I will I will have to take care of that myself. And the second was also that I noticed how disconnected the whole system is. I mean, I had breathing problems, so the doctors would send me to lung specialist. I had joint pain, so they would send me to rheumatologist. And even I said, no. Listen. There is there's just one, probably one or two root causes of of my problems, so let's find them. And they were like, no. We sent you to different specialists. And if you go to these different specialists, everybody looks only at that particular organ in the body or tissue.
So that was totally, like, call for me that well, I will not definitely get the help help because I already knew it that if you wanna recover, you willing need to look at the whole body system. And not just the body system as the physical, but also at the mental, energetic, spiritual levels, and heal them all to be able to recover fully. But, I think I was in that moment, I was still quite lucky that I'm a scientist because I started to connect the dots. It took me a while. So I I realized that I I had mold illness, extreme mold sensing mold, toxicity.
And I had quite unresolved infection still from my this exotic trip a few years back. Uh-huh. And on the top, there was, of course, some gut issues and, and borreliosis. Alright. So, this was quite a big cocktail for me. And, so of course, I was quite limited physically. So I couldn't work. I couldn't, you know, do much of physical activities, and and everything changed in life because, actually, friends starts to to go away. Many people left, And, and, you know, it's it was kind of also wake up journey for me. So even now, you know, during this whole process, I felt quite quite exhausted.
But when I look back, I feel that this was a big blessing for me because without this experience, I would not get to that path, which I believe is meant for me because I do something what what comes from my heart. And, I think it been always calling me to do this, but I was, not listening enough to the to the to the signs. So I'm quite happy that I finally achieved at the career level something that comes from deeply from me, and I'm able to share my knowledge with others, sometimes to wake them up also because I see how much, for example, chemicals people are using every day without knowing the consequences.
Mhmm.
[00:11:08] Unknown:
Are you talking about, like, cleaning supplies or about Yeah. Cleaning supplies, cosmetics,
[00:11:14] Unknown:
also food. Also food. Because people eat nowadays quite processed food. Yes. And, and they don't even realize that the diet has such a profound effect on our health. I mean, the Hippocrates thought already that food is a medicine. So let's make this a medicine and not, not something against our body.
[00:11:39] Unknown:
Wow. It's been quite a journey for you. And I I think a lot of the listeners, have similar stories of of chronic diseases that because I think, of course, modern medicine has a lot of things that they can fix. But when it comes to chronic disease, quite often, I see people coming to herbal medicine because there is some chronic condition, and medical modern medical, medicine doesn't have any answers for that. So I agree.
[00:12:10] Unknown:
And I think people, then turn not only to herbal medicine, but any other naturopathic Mhmm. Ways of healing. As you said, like, modern medicine is quite advanced, but it's excellent when it's about acute situations. Yes. When it's about chronic, the problem is that they don't look at the root causes, the real root causes, but rather try they try to treat the symptoms. And, you know, people, they take pills and they may not feel pain or they are not dizzy or something. So they feel okay. I'm fine now. The problem is that the root cause is there and actual isn't is making more damage because the body doesn't get this nervous system response to to what's in what's going on inside. So everything is numbed.
[00:13:04] Unknown:
Yes. And it's not it's not as if you are healed because if you stop taking the pills, it's still there. You know? It just all symptoms return. Yes. Absolutely. So, how I'm I'm wondering if if there are, like, any Polish traditional herbal practices that, influenced you as a as a medical herbalist?
[00:13:26] Unknown:
No. That's that's interesting question. So, you know, honestly, like, I left Poland when I was 26 years old, And that time, I was not that familiar with herbal medicine, so I was also not that interested in in it. But if I look at the Polish tradition, it's it's quite strong, I would say. It's deeply rooted in our history. So I I found out that herbal tradition is in Poland is dating back to the sixteenth century when the first Polish herbals were published. And this this herbals were, they play quite a crucial role in guiding treatment practices because before that, of course, it was spoken.
So people learn because somebody, you know, told them tradition. Yes. It was. It was. And and this Polish folk medicine often blends not only herbal knowledge but also quite a bit of dose of spirituality. It's in in the Pogans traditions. So that's quite interesting and the, like, shamanic practices.
[00:14:44] Unknown:
Yes. This is this is something that I have seen because I've interviewed quite some people already, within the European context. And this is very interesting to see. So if you go to The UK, you have, like, medical herbalist education and everything. But if you go to the East Of Of Europe, you have, like in Bulgaria, it's the same. You have a lot of magic still involved with, with the use of of plants and of herbs, especially if you use them in a in a healing way. And then the countries in the middle are like, like, really in between, because I think in Eastern Europe and many Eastern European countries, the the herbal tradition is still very much alive as in the way that it is a very daily normal thing.
Yes. Some some countries don't even have a name for a herbalist because everybody still uses herbs. And if I look at at well, I can speak from my own context for the Belgian context. I think there is a lot of things that are not allowed. Like in France, there are even more things not allowed. Herbalists is, like, really, like, almost an illegal thing to call yourself. So it's very interesting to see how in Europe, this is very different in very different countries.
[00:16:07] Unknown:
Mhmm. I think these regulations, you know, and the limitations are quite often seen in all European Union countries. So there are some differences, of course. Like, for example, this year Artemisia, became forbidden for sale in Finland. And, in Poland nowadays, there is quite a big, big talks about, particular mushroom. I will not actually tell the name because, you know, it's even forbidden to talk about it. Wow. So, and it's it's going on at the moment. So it's quite, it's quite strong also political activities against herbal medicine, in many many, EU countries.
But, when I go back to Poland, you know, I can see that also with, with the books, in the books. You know, the the current Polish pharmakopedia comes back from nineteen seventies, and it has around 60 herbar monographs. Forty years before that, the same book contained over 300 herbar monographs. So you see how the knowledge starts to be restricted also. Yes. And but it also aligns with the with the shifts towards chemical drugs and the development of, pharma, so to call medications.
[00:17:47] Unknown:
Yes. And it's it's an interesting thing to look at, I think, because there is much more money to be made with with modern medicines that are often made in the first place, from from constituents from plants. Right? Absolutely.
[00:18:02] Unknown:
So I think 80% of drugs come from Yes. Plants. And if you look at the history of pharmacy, the pharmacies that time were only making medications from, from plants, animals, and then minerals, and that's all. But, you know, you cannot patent plants. You cannot patent nature. So, of course, synthetic chemicals can they can be patented and actually companies can earn Mhmm. Quite a bit of money.
[00:18:38] Unknown:
When it comes to, like, scientific research, do you think there is enough research about herbs and plants?
[00:18:45] Unknown:
No. Definitely no. Not. But, we also have to see why it's why it's that. So, quite often, many medical research projects are sponsored by pharma companies. And if the pharma companies knows that cannot patent something, that it's in the nature, of course it doesn't want to invest the money there because the money should, should later come back with a provision, quite big provision. So this is the one one thing. And then second, I think is general advertisement of the herbal medicine as something that that actually can destroy our health. I mean, I see that, for example, in Finland, when people go to doctors, and the doctor always tell them to don't take health because they destroy your liver or kidneys. Oh. And I think, destroy your liver or kidneys.
Oh. And I think this is that that's actually the problem. Why some so little amount of people want to try herbal traditional herbal medicine here, but it also gives an kind of answer how the the medical society is so against that. They also don't want the research.
[00:20:13] Unknown:
Yes. And I think it's it's not the right way to make people fear herbs and which is what happens if you tell as a medical doctor, you tell people to to not to use herbs because they can damage your kidneys or your liver.
[00:20:30] Unknown:
I don't know if you notice. I'm sorry. I will because I may lose my my my thought. If you notice in, quite often, in many conclusions about herbs are based on some one or two case histories. So for example there was a case, I read scientific papers and I see a case of like 70 years old woman for example who got liver damage after some herbs. Nobody takes into account any other chronic illnesses she she or he would have. Also what was the state of the liver and liver function before the person started taking the herbal medicine, and they don't look at the source of herbs. You know, nowadays, you can buy so many so called natural supplements of very poor quality.
Absolutely. They come they are not controlled, and they they may contain a lot of also, for example, heavy metals that I know to destroy or soluble or kidneys. And then you read this, like one case in a million that this happened, and in general, medical society starts to create this kind of picture that herbs are bad for us. They are dangerous. And they don't look at the fact, like, from where the medication came as first. Yes.
[00:22:03] Unknown:
Yes. Either they say, hey. The herbs, they don't work. Or they say, hey. They're dangerous. What is really the basic of the thing that just we should all get more knowledge and more, research about herbs, really good research, not not like crappy research, or that is based on like, just one person who got, like, liver damage.
[00:22:29] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes. But, you know, it's about money. You know, you need money to do that risk research as well. And there's not many foundations that would even like to, let's say, grant Mhmm. Give a grant for for this kind of, studies, which is unfortunate. But then I I look that, you know, everything, it's not only it's it cannot be only about evidence based. We have to look that okay. The current science and medical science, it's quite already developed, and it's developed in quite a short in in a historical scale, in quite a short period of time. But when you look at the tradition medicine, is it like our western herbal medicine or Chinese herbal medicine, Ayurveda? It's about thousands of years of expertise.
[00:23:26] Unknown:
Yes. Exactly.
[00:23:27] Unknown:
People know. People who who have knowledge in those fields, they know what they are doing. There's knowledge was carried from generations to generation, and, actually, I hope it won't be forgotten just because we have this tool of the modern medicine and this neglect towards the traditional approaches to to treat.
[00:23:53] Unknown:
Yes. And I think in in this viewpoint, it's very interesting to to know that the World Health Organization is also, putting more effort into, mapping the whole traditional herbal medicine that is used in different countries. They did this for the Chinese traditional Chinese medicine, and now they're trying to to map it for different cultures as well. And I think it's good because, yes, a lot of knowledge is just going extinct. And it's like some yeah. It's also kind of a heritage that we have as as a species and as as different cultures. And it's something to really cherish because it's so valuable instead of just
[00:24:40] Unknown:
throwing it away because we have modern medicine. Yes. And we should be proud of it.
[00:24:45] Unknown:
Yes. Absolutely. Yes. So you live in Finland at the moment? Yes. I was wondering how how if if you compare it, I hear that you still have family in Poland. Yes. So, if you compare it to, like, the Polish situation, how how is it so easy or how difficult is it to get access to high quality herbal preparations or to herbal schooling in these both countries? Could you tell a little bit more about that? Yes sure. So
[00:25:19] Unknown:
in Poland, we have quite developed I would say herbal industry. So you can really get high quality herbs and herbal extracts which are based on wild and cultivated herbs. And, there is a wide range of herbal preparation which are available in special herbal shops or pharmacies. But we have herbal shops in almost every town, not saying even big cities. So that's quite popular and, you know, you can go there and you can buy herbs in kilos. Yes. When I look at in Finland, there's only few shops that sell herbs or herbal preparations, and the amount is very limited. So dry herbs, like, to make, for example, tea, you can find maybe, like, 10 in those shops.
And in the amount of 50 to hundred grams only, the quality okay. In the quality is high. Finland really puts quite, big, let's say, pressure on the quality. So if you buy here, you know that it's it's pure and it's it's really it's active, you know. I mean, we have a lot of active compounds. It's prepared a good way, the proper way. Same is in Poland. But, for example, the education is quite different because in Finland, at least still two or three years ago, there were, like, two schools that were teaching on the weekends herbal, practices.
I think it was like one year course. Mhmm. And I think nowadays there's only one school left. And in Poland, it's totally opposite situation because we have a lot of established, schools, institutes that teach herbal medicine. Alright. And also you can study, you can take postgraduate studies or courses on herbs at some medical universities.
[00:27:43] Unknown:
Really?
[00:27:44] Unknown:
Yes. Okay. And still, I hope it will stay that way. So you can see the difference. Of course, in Poland, you don't study only herbal medicine like western herbal medicine, but there's a lot of also the spirituality exactly shamanism, which is not that popular in Finland. I mean, there are some schools which teach, shamanism, but, they are again, like, some weekend courses. So the difference is quite big, you know, between these two countries in, regards to education. Yes. To herbal medicine education. Yes. Yep. I will correct that because Finland has quite quite high quality education system, otherwise.
About registration of the profession, so in Poland, Medical Herbalists are treated as registered professionals. Mhmm. That's not in Finland. So you can you you know, everybody can call himself here, like, on a medical herbalist, but for your good, you need to have a diploma.
[00:29:00] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:29:01] Unknown:
And, that's a bit of plus also but there are minuses. The minus is that as a not registered profession you cannot go get client insurance which is quite problematic because, you can for example, if person comes to your practice and unfortunately breaks the leg, of course, then the insurance would cover that. But if the some damage occurs because you you may dismiss something or, misdiagnose the person, the insurance will not cover that. In Poland, it will cover because it's a registered, profession and there are special insurances that would covered cover that. Right. So you see, practicing herbal medicine in Finland is more challenging, but, I see that nowadays more and more people start to a bit turn back to natural medicine. And when I get the client, I always ask how you found me and why you actually I want to even use herbs.
And the most I mean, the most common answer is because none of the doctors help me. So this is the still in Finland, this is kind of the last, option. Yeah. Yes. In in Poland, it's not because, in many people because it's still in our tradition. Yes. Quite often people when they get ill, they first grab herbs and if you go to like let's say old school doctors or probably person who is already 70 years old, they still may prescribe you herbs. Ah. At the first, first, remedies, but the newest generation of the doctors have not much knowledge about herbs, and they go only to into pharmaceuticals.
And they start to also be slowly against the natural medicine, and I think it's coming also from the education they get.
[00:31:23] Unknown:
Yes. Probably. Yeah. Mhmm. So so That's really interesting.
[00:31:28] Unknown:
It is. So you see there the difference even it's in Europe, but we have quite a big difference between the countries and the approach towards her about many things. Yes. And is there,
[00:31:41] Unknown:
like, when you compare Finland to Poland, I think I already know the answer a little bit from what you previously told me, but is it like a huge difference when it comes to basic general knowledge of plants in the general population?
[00:31:59] Unknown:
Yes. It will definitely. So as I well, we discussed, Polish people still know some basics. At least maybe still my generation or my my parents, definitely, my grandparents. And I hope it will I mean, people will start to get interested more and more, which actually I see that in Poland, coming. In Finland, about so there's many people, you know, Finnish people really admire nature. So in Finland people really value nature and well-being. However if I look at at more natural approaches, they are very oriented into scientific based approaches.
So, nowadays, there's a quite big boom about functional food like for example, dried berries, extracts, Yes. Pirollina and all of all the similar similar things. So I think Finns are more prone into trying those instead of traditional herbal preparations. Because of course the knowledge, I see that the herbal knowledge is quite forgotten in Finland. Even Finland has quite a long history of a natural healing methods and I think it was in nineteenth century when one writer, actually doctor also, he put together all this information and write them down. Still, people don't recognize herbal medicine as one of the important ways of treatment.
And it comes also from this whole as I told you, the approach that everything here must be evidence based, scientifically proven, and people are, really looking at a different you know, they have quite big knowledge here. Like, they really search by themselves into scientific papers and, and want to know more. But as we discussed before, there's not much research done on herbal medicines. Of course, they they miss those article. And if they they found something, it can be quite negative also.
[00:34:35] Unknown:
Yes. Yes. And I think it's also quite, well, worrisome actually that you say that that there used to be a rich herbal tradition in Finland, but just in a few generations, it got wiped out.
[00:34:48] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah. When you feel it's quite it's quite sad. Yes. It's quite sad. But, you know, it comes from the whole system, actually. That's my my belief. I mean, the way how I observe, let's say, that if, if you go to well, it's here it's quite developed an educational system, which is very good. Many people are highly educated. So they look at the evidence base. They look at the science. And because the system is made such the medical system is made such that, you know, it doesn't allow this natural healing methods to be part of the whole treatment process. Mhmm.
People don't look at this themselves, and only people who are long chronically ill will will turn into natural
[00:35:49] Unknown:
healing methods. They feel hopeless. Yes. Absolutely.
[00:35:52] Unknown:
Absolutely. And, or people who have already some knowledge or somehow involved in natural ways of thinking. So I have I have customers who are, for example, a Chinese medicine practitioner.
[00:36:09] Unknown:
Ah, yes. Acupuncturist.
[00:36:12] Unknown:
And they come to me, and for them, it's something normal. You know? They just want this another approach to to, to look at the health.
[00:36:21] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:36:23] Unknown:
So, so I see that, you know, it's it's really challenging here. But I I also see that there is the starts to be slowly some turn towards the natural, healing. It's still covered by a lot of this scientifically must be based information or nowadays also boom in in technology. They use a lot of, which is also good because it helps them to track their own health, but they lose a lot of use a lot of technology towards that self treatment.
[00:37:04] Unknown:
I think that's very fascinating what you say that, like, Chinese people come to you as a client because they they have, like, this cultural framework of herbalism. It's ingrained into their culture. And I think in Europe, we could get this back in the countries where it's lost. We should get it back as a cultural framework that we can, like, refer to or that we can rely on when it's when it's needed.
[00:37:30] Unknown:
I think the I think the beauty would be if medical society would like to collaborate with Yes. Natural medicine practitioners because and create this integrative approach, you know, because as we discussed, modern medicine is quite good in treating the act the quite acute health problems. But, quite often what comes after the acute, which is not treated well or it develops into the chronic, and then it's something that we could combine this knowledge. Yes. Yes. And not only It would be a win win situation if this could happen. Absolutely. Win win. And the the most important, it's not about the win win for two professions. It's the win win for the client, for the pay people.
[00:38:25] Unknown:
Yes. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, really. So I'm wondering what would your advice be to someone who is interested in exploring herbalism as a career in a European context?
[00:38:40] Unknown:
I think just looks looking for well, if if a person doesn't really know if that would be the the path, it would be maybe quite, interesting to explore some courses, like basic courses, like, few months courses on herbal medicine, and then see if that's kind of if that resonances with them. And if if it does, then I would look for, schools that offer, herbal medicine education. Of course, you can do even, like, long studies on online nowadays, and that's that's fine. I would look at schools which offer clinical practice because it's something I had at the school hours, and it really prepared me to work with the clients.
And understanding also that, you know, when the person talks about symptoms, it's not just about listening, but you observing the person Mhmm. Body, like skin, for example, gestures, and their jet level. And, so you see, we as the medical herbalist, we don't we cannot diagnose, you know, we cannot diagnose, but, for our purposes to prescribe something, we do in our health our own diagnosis. And just listening is not enough. You really have to observe the person, and you learn that during the clinical training. So I would suggest that, you know, go for school, which offers also that, and that's, that's actually quite an interesting journey. Yes. And the same I could tell about peep for people who are chronically ill because I know and I understand how it feels to be sick for years without getting help. It's frustrating, and it's quite depressing.
But we can look at the situation, like, as something totally negative, yeah, and get down even more. Or then, you know, look at a possibility. This is not a problem. It's my experience. And because during that experience, you can develop something that will be beneficial for you for the rest of your life. You may learn something more about yourself. You can realize who are your real friends. You can totally build your life again from scratch the way you want and the way that resonates with you. At the beginning of my sickness, I know I'm telling now it sounds so like beautiful story ahead. No. At the beginning, it wasn't beautiful story for me. It was it was extremely challenging.
But towards, my recovery, and I knew that still I have quite a long journey to go, I still change the way of thinking about it. That at something that well, you know, it's it's my blessing. It's for my physical body, it's not blessing at all. But for me, for the whole of my for my life, it's a blessing. And I hope people with chronic illness will start to look at this that way to also make them keep more positivity and which is difficult when you are sick. But when you are more positive or you see that there is a goal, you have a goal there, it's easier to recover because you put all the strength Yes. Into recovery. Your power, you and your mental power, your physical power into the recovery.
[00:42:36] Unknown:
I'm I'm wondering. So you've been trained as a biomedical scientist, and then you you're working as a medical herbalist. So how do your skills as a medical biomedical scientist complement your work as a medical herbalist? Or how does especially when it comes to, like, chronic illnesses, how what unique insights do these, combinations of the two give you?
[00:43:03] Unknown:
I think for me, it creates a unique approach, you know, to address the chronic illnesses because as a medical scientist, I have a deep understanding of the physiological and biochemical mechanics that underline many dysregulations in the body that may lead to chronic illnesses. And also, I, you know, for me, it's maybe easier. I'm not saying it's nothing against any other therapies to what I'm saying here. But maybe for me, it's just easier to interpret the scientific data. Mhmm. Mhmm. Because, you know, I've been a scientist for around twenty years of my life. Yeah. And, this scientific foundation also allows me for more, I would say, precise identification of different imbalances like nutritional deficiencies or environmental toxins and using, different functional medicine approaches to identify those, those imbalances.
On the other hand, the training in a herbal medicine gave me this holistic perspective. So focusing on the different interconnections of body system and their interactions and how to support body's own ability to heal. So herbal medicines offer, of course, century known traditional knowledge, but also a bit of evidence base now as well. So I can I can combine the scientific, you know, way of thinking, which is quite, I would say, it's quite strict? At least for me, the mind is, let's say, I would say I'm quite sharp in it in the in the moment in the in the sense that, you know, when I focus on something, I will do that job to the end.
And when I read, I really don't read one article, but if I see something that I don't understand, I start to dig into into different articles and connect the dots. And I think that was a blessing for me to be scientist when I was sick because I was able to connect different, you know, mechanics. I was really, it sounds funny, but I I had a piece of paper, big piece of paper when I draw myself in the middle, and I was drawing drawing different molecular pathways and looking at the connections between them and looking at the different, you know, root causes, what could cause which which disbalance.
And this way, I managed to collect all this information and heal. So, so I think it's for me, it's definitely a unique unique combination, which, works for me. Maybe that's wouldn't work for for other people.
[00:46:18] Unknown:
Yes. But I think it's a very complimentary system that you have here. Wow. Wow. Very impressive. One thing I wanted to talk with you, about also is what I found, Patricia, particularly interesting is your work in addressing, like, mold exposure, disease and, toxic toxins, in the system like heavy metals. Mhmm. So I'm wondering how how do you use herbal support for these,
[00:46:51] Unknown:
these things? Mhmm. Yes. Definitely. Like, environmental illnesses are something I specialize the most because of my personal experience. And, you know, herbs are super powerful, but they should be prescribed very individually. So even we did we will discuss what I do, it it's not a prescription for everybody. Yes. Yes. So people should, keep this in mind. Mhmm. So, you know, first, you have to support the toxification organs because the mold illness, well, that would need to be another topic because it's a huge topic. Mold illness includes mold toxicity, meaning the presence of mold toxins, mycotoxins. So you have to remove them from the body.
Sometimes there's a colonization of the mold also in the body, so you have to use some antifungals. But my approach is that, you know, I will not tell you in in the proper order because the order changes for every client, but you have to support detoxification organs like liver, like kidney. So for example, milk thistle because it's not only supports the liver in the toxification, but also protects the liver cells from the damage from those toxins, then, Bulldog root, for example, because it's not just only a liver herb, but it's also, supports the lymphatic drainage, which helps to remove the toxins from the tissues.
Then next one, we have to remember that chemical toxins or bio biotoxins, so not only toxins that comes from mold, but also different infections like bacteria, viruses, or parasites. So different biotoxins, dysregulate the immune system. So the immune system depends of the toxin type, will, and the arm of the immune system. So these toxins may lead to actual suppression of the immune system and in long term actually lead even to cancer or the overreaction of the immune system and development of different allergies or muscle activation.
So we have to stabilise the immune system as first as well. Then when you look where the immune system is located mostly, it's the gut. 80% of the immune system is in our gut. So you have to support the gut, and toxins and mold cause quite severe dysbiosis. You have to treat this dye dysbiosis to bring back the immune system to balance. Next one, you have to support the nervous system because the biotoxins or chemical synthetics toxins will also affect the nervous system, and the person may develop, like, for example, anxiety, brain fog, fatigue.
And, and that's actually I want to stop here and and tell for moment and and tell why there's quite a big neglect from medical specialist towards, for example, mold illness or multiple chemical sensitivity because they think it's in the head. It's it's a mental illness. Mhmm. Because quite often what they see, they see people coming there with anxiety, with a depression, and they think, okay. So it's just in their head. They are depressed. That's why they think they have more illness or chemical sensitivity. It's opposite way because those toxins will lead to such a changes out on the brain level, out on the neurotransmitter level that actually they may lead to symptoms of anxiety and depression.
So you have to support that because you have to also make the person's life easier, you know, to to to to manage that disease. So, definitely, the mental health, the nervous system has to be supported. Then you have to bind those toxins. There are different ways to bind the toxins, and then you look at different symptoms. So, for example, one person may have respiratory issues. So, of course, you give herbs that supports the lung function, lung detox as well. Or if there's skin issues, of course, you want to support the skin as well, like, locally. But, you know, most most skin issues come from what's happening in the body inside. So you have to support liver. You have to support the detox system, the the proper flora, the the microbiome.
And, you know, so the the approach is quite of big. But if you combine all of this at the same time of at different times, because people are so it was people's maltiness or chemical sensitive to also Lyme disease. They're extremely sensitive. Of course, you have to know also how to approach this. You cannot give, like, bunch of herbs and say, okay. Drink this three times per day because it won't work.
[00:52:21] Unknown:
Yes. And I love how you'd say that is how you say that it is a personalized approach that is needed because everybody's different, everybody has their own history, different issues. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And it's it was very interesting to hear you talk about the mental health connection, because I think, yes, indeed, that is often something that is, overseen by medical science or, like, by medical professionals.
[00:52:49] Unknown:
And it's Absolutely. It's so, you know, so many people nowadays have mental health problems, which actually the root cause may not be only the stress, prolonged stress or traumas. But I see quite often in clients exactly the mold, illness, different biotoxins, even parasites can cause anxiety because they produce such a toxic compounds, like metabolites, that will affect our nervous system. And, for example, thyroid problem will also lead to depression and anxiety. So, you know, we have to if if we talk about mental health, yeah, the person should get support from maybe psychologists, some therapy, but we need to really find the root causes, all the root causes that cause those because, even it's called as a disease, I believe it's a symptom of something.
Even even symptom of stress, symptom of trauma, or symptom of biological origin.
[00:53:53] Unknown:
Yes. Very interesting. So I'm wondering about where, at the moment, you are now in having your biochemical background and your background as a medical herbalist. Where do you find new inspiration or new knowledge?
[00:54:12] Unknown:
Oh, there's always something to learn new. You know? So I look at the I look at old books, like, really old school books, because I I've been, you know, as a medical scientist, I've been studying, like, modern science and modern medicine, and then I study western herbal medicine. But nowadays, I'm also quite interested about energetics, spirituality, and more like even more much much deeper traditional approaches. If you want to learn that, you will have to find old old books. Sometimes you find something interesting like that on the Internet too, but old books are the the main source.
[00:54:59] Unknown:
Yes. Yes. I agree. I have, so many old books, and it's sometimes it's really interesting to see how I mean, these books date back to a certain period of time, but they still had even then, they already had, like, some insight in in compounds chemical compounds of herbs. And I'm always amazed by it, how much they actually already knew back then. Absolutely. Yes. Just by observing and by by using them. Mhmm. Very, very interesting. Yes.
[00:55:33] Unknown:
And look at the astronomy. You know? We have all this truth now to see what's in the universe, but people, like, even few thousand years ago, they may they were able to predict, like, weather based on observing the sky only. And they were the agriculture were also based on the observation, the nature observation.
[00:55:59] Unknown:
They were reading nature, actually. We a lot of us have lost this ability to to read nature because we don't have the knowledge anymore about nature. Like, because of plant knowledge, I know exactly when I see certain plants, which seeds are only spread by ants, then I know, okay, there are ants here. Even though I do not see them, I know they are here. This is reading the landscape, and I I think it's a particularly interesting, part about herbalism that you can or you can see somewhere, like, a meadow that is quite dry in summer. But if you see, like, a Valerian there and meadow sweet, you know that it will be wet area in the winter. And, yes, I don't know if you know, the the work of natural navigator.
It's a really interesting concept. So he says, yeah, people were able to orient themselves not only by how the sun was standing, but also by the stars and by looking at the bark of trees and see where the moss is growing and all of this. And we have just lost these abilities and we can we can regain them, of course, but it's I see not enough people, like, worrying about,
[00:57:16] Unknown:
losing these abilities because it's like a basic life skill. Mhmm. And it's, you know, it's interesting what you told just a second ago because this knowledge, I still learn at the prime at the beginning of my primary school. Exactly how you orient yourself in nature by observing the nature. And when I look at, like kids nowadays, they don't learn that anymore. So it was kind of interesting. You know? See? Poland has this tradition, quite deep tradition, unfortunately, because of the education system is changing. Every government changes the education system. Many things are lost.
[00:57:59] Unknown:
Yes. What what do you think should happen to to make sure that not more knowledge is going extinct is going lost? Knowledge about your plants work or or about navigating ourselves in nature or
[00:58:15] Unknown:
or I think we have to we have to dig the information ourselves. We cannot count that this knowledge will come because it would require, governments and different institutions, also different companies including pharma companies, like chemical companies to change their approach And they they will not do that, at least not in the near future. So it's only about us as as I told that our health is in our hand, not in the hand of therapist or doctor. It's the same about the knowledge. The knowledge is there. You have to dig it.
[00:58:57] Unknown:
It's about us. We have to do it. Yes. That's that's a lovely way to end this, very interesting conversation.
[00:59:06] Unknown:
Thank you so much, Anita, for your time. So much. It was really, really interesting. Words.
[00:59:11] Unknown:
I'm wondering, if people want to find out more about your work, where can they find information?
[00:59:17] Unknown:
On my website, for example, like www.anitawashik.com. Vasik by w. And, I have also social media account, so doctor Anita Vasik, so people can find me there.
[00:59:36] Unknown:
Alright. Thank you so much. Thank you again. Wildling that was listening. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. See you the next time. But in the meantime, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye bye.
[00:59:54] Unknown:
A warm thank you for listening, Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there. But for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Welcome to Wild. The podcast for wildlings just like you. Wildlings who want to transform transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. My name is Liebergele. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 02/2002. In those years, I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular, but I've also seen time is running out for our planet. As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others, it's almost illegal.
I believe that together, we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together, we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and plants. And that's why for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you are ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to wild.
[00:02:13] Unknown:
Hello, wildling. Welcome to a new episode of the wild podcast. And today, I have with me, Anita Worschik. I think I'm trying to pronounce it right. She's a Polish medical herbalist and biomedical scientist. She's, based in Finland. She specializes in chronic illnesses, integrating herbal practices with functional medicine. Her areas of focus include environmental and hormonal health, digestive issues, immune disbalance, pain and fatigue, and mental health problems. She emphasizes a holistic personalized approach and offers consultations and retreats.
Welcome, Anita, to the podcast.
[00:03:00] Unknown:
Thank you for inviting me.
[00:03:03] Unknown:
How did your journey with the plants get started? What inspired you to become a medical herbalist?
[00:03:09] Unknown:
So, actually, I would never think that I would become medical herbalist. Even the herbs were a part of my last life since childhood. So my grandparents were quite often collecting some herbs, drying them, and we were using them as the first aid, for example, during colds and flus. And later in my life, I learned that my grand grandma was self taught herbalist and that time in the villages, you know, you couldn't have easy access to doctors. So she was like kind of local therapist there. And, my my kind of career path went towards more like science, medical science, because I was always interested in human physiology, anatomy, and cell biology.
So I pursued career in biomedical science and I obtained this doctoral degree in Finland and master degree in biotechnology and molecular biology in Poland. And then I spent several years working as a scientist in Poland, Finland and Germany. And in 2016, I went for a trip. A trip, like, more exotic trip to Asia and that trip changed my life totally. So I when I returned from that trip, I started to feel quite sick. So of course I visited doctors and even tropical medicine specialists but they left me without the diagnosis. Even I was profoundly fatigued and in pain.
So that was the first moment I start to a bit explore more natural and alternative ways of diagnosis. So, when I found out what's going on with me, and that was in Poland, I well I turned towards like herbal treatment but still not a professional way from my side so I was using others people knowledge. And I started to reclaim my health slowly, but still. And that was the moment also I started to a bit question my career because I knew that as a scientist I have two options. Even I stay at academia or then I go to biotech or pharma companies. And the second option was never never for me. I felt that insight, you know, I listened to my gut feeling, and it was totally even against against me.
So I still continued at the academia, but I decided to study herbal medicine at the same time and I found a school in Great Britain. And funny enough when I started to study herbal medicine I also became quite ill again and that was profound, I would say quite profound illness for me because I developed chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, breathing difficulties, bladder pain which could last for eight months non stop, and, and constant and increasing sensitivity to chemicals, to smells, and to food. So my diet was quite limited and still, you know, even though I was studying herbal medicine, I still visited doctors, but, there was an, let's say, moment when I I decided to not go there anymore. And that was the moment when the doctor started to tell me that this is something in my head because the blood tests were normal.
And that even I I gave them, you know, a lot of information also what I react to, they still only told me, like, okay. Just keep keep writing this down for another year, and maybe you we will see what is the connection between. That was the first thing when I said, oh, no. Thank you. I will I will have to take care of that myself. And the second was also that I noticed how disconnected the whole system is. I mean, I had breathing problems, so the doctors would send me to lung specialist. I had joint pain, so they would send me to rheumatologist. And even I said, no. Listen. There is there's just one, probably one or two root causes of of my problems, so let's find them. And they were like, no. We sent you to different specialists. And if you go to these different specialists, everybody looks only at that particular organ in the body or tissue.
So that was totally, like, call for me that well, I will not definitely get the help help because I already knew it that if you wanna recover, you willing need to look at the whole body system. And not just the body system as the physical, but also at the mental, energetic, spiritual levels, and heal them all to be able to recover fully. But, I think I was in that moment, I was still quite lucky that I'm a scientist because I started to connect the dots. It took me a while. So I I realized that I I had mold illness, extreme mold sensing mold, toxicity.
And I had quite unresolved infection still from my this exotic trip a few years back. Uh-huh. And on the top, there was, of course, some gut issues and, and borreliosis. Alright. So, this was quite a big cocktail for me. And, so of course, I was quite limited physically. So I couldn't work. I couldn't, you know, do much of physical activities, and and everything changed in life because, actually, friends starts to to go away. Many people left, And, and, you know, it's it was kind of also wake up journey for me. So even now, you know, during this whole process, I felt quite quite exhausted.
But when I look back, I feel that this was a big blessing for me because without this experience, I would not get to that path, which I believe is meant for me because I do something what what comes from my heart. And, I think it been always calling me to do this, but I was, not listening enough to the to the to the signs. So I'm quite happy that I finally achieved at the career level something that comes from deeply from me, and I'm able to share my knowledge with others, sometimes to wake them up also because I see how much, for example, chemicals people are using every day without knowing the consequences.
Mhmm.
[00:11:08] Unknown:
Are you talking about, like, cleaning supplies or about Yeah. Cleaning supplies, cosmetics,
[00:11:14] Unknown:
also food. Also food. Because people eat nowadays quite processed food. Yes. And, and they don't even realize that the diet has such a profound effect on our health. I mean, the Hippocrates thought already that food is a medicine. So let's make this a medicine and not, not something against our body.
[00:11:39] Unknown:
Wow. It's been quite a journey for you. And I I think a lot of the listeners, have similar stories of of chronic diseases that because I think, of course, modern medicine has a lot of things that they can fix. But when it comes to chronic disease, quite often, I see people coming to herbal medicine because there is some chronic condition, and medical modern medical, medicine doesn't have any answers for that. So I agree.
[00:12:10] Unknown:
And I think people, then turn not only to herbal medicine, but any other naturopathic Mhmm. Ways of healing. As you said, like, modern medicine is quite advanced, but it's excellent when it's about acute situations. Yes. When it's about chronic, the problem is that they don't look at the root causes, the real root causes, but rather try they try to treat the symptoms. And, you know, people, they take pills and they may not feel pain or they are not dizzy or something. So they feel okay. I'm fine now. The problem is that the root cause is there and actual isn't is making more damage because the body doesn't get this nervous system response to to what's in what's going on inside. So everything is numbed.
[00:13:04] Unknown:
Yes. And it's not it's not as if you are healed because if you stop taking the pills, it's still there. You know? It just all symptoms return. Yes. Absolutely. So, how I'm I'm wondering if if there are, like, any Polish traditional herbal practices that, influenced you as a as a medical herbalist?
[00:13:26] Unknown:
No. That's that's interesting question. So, you know, honestly, like, I left Poland when I was 26 years old, And that time, I was not that familiar with herbal medicine, so I was also not that interested in in it. But if I look at the Polish tradition, it's it's quite strong, I would say. It's deeply rooted in our history. So I I found out that herbal tradition is in Poland is dating back to the sixteenth century when the first Polish herbals were published. And this this herbals were, they play quite a crucial role in guiding treatment practices because before that, of course, it was spoken.
So people learn because somebody, you know, told them tradition. Yes. It was. It was. And and this Polish folk medicine often blends not only herbal knowledge but also quite a bit of dose of spirituality. It's in in the Pogans traditions. So that's quite interesting and the, like, shamanic practices.
[00:14:44] Unknown:
Yes. This is this is something that I have seen because I've interviewed quite some people already, within the European context. And this is very interesting to see. So if you go to The UK, you have, like, medical herbalist education and everything. But if you go to the East Of Of Europe, you have, like in Bulgaria, it's the same. You have a lot of magic still involved with, with the use of of plants and of herbs, especially if you use them in a in a healing way. And then the countries in the middle are like, like, really in between, because I think in Eastern Europe and many Eastern European countries, the the herbal tradition is still very much alive as in the way that it is a very daily normal thing.
Yes. Some some countries don't even have a name for a herbalist because everybody still uses herbs. And if I look at at well, I can speak from my own context for the Belgian context. I think there is a lot of things that are not allowed. Like in France, there are even more things not allowed. Herbalists is, like, really, like, almost an illegal thing to call yourself. So it's very interesting to see how in Europe, this is very different in very different countries.
[00:16:07] Unknown:
Mhmm. I think these regulations, you know, and the limitations are quite often seen in all European Union countries. So there are some differences, of course. Like, for example, this year Artemisia, became forbidden for sale in Finland. And, in Poland nowadays, there is quite a big, big talks about, particular mushroom. I will not actually tell the name because, you know, it's even forbidden to talk about it. Wow. So, and it's it's going on at the moment. So it's quite, it's quite strong also political activities against herbal medicine, in many many, EU countries.
But, when I go back to Poland, you know, I can see that also with, with the books, in the books. You know, the the current Polish pharmakopedia comes back from nineteen seventies, and it has around 60 herbar monographs. Forty years before that, the same book contained over 300 herbar monographs. So you see how the knowledge starts to be restricted also. Yes. And but it also aligns with the with the shifts towards chemical drugs and the development of, pharma, so to call medications.
[00:17:47] Unknown:
Yes. And it's it's an interesting thing to look at, I think, because there is much more money to be made with with modern medicines that are often made in the first place, from from constituents from plants. Right? Absolutely.
[00:18:02] Unknown:
So I think 80% of drugs come from Yes. Plants. And if you look at the history of pharmacy, the pharmacies that time were only making medications from, from plants, animals, and then minerals, and that's all. But, you know, you cannot patent plants. You cannot patent nature. So, of course, synthetic chemicals can they can be patented and actually companies can earn Mhmm. Quite a bit of money.
[00:18:38] Unknown:
When it comes to, like, scientific research, do you think there is enough research about herbs and plants?
[00:18:45] Unknown:
No. Definitely no. Not. But, we also have to see why it's why it's that. So, quite often, many medical research projects are sponsored by pharma companies. And if the pharma companies knows that cannot patent something, that it's in the nature, of course it doesn't want to invest the money there because the money should, should later come back with a provision, quite big provision. So this is the one one thing. And then second, I think is general advertisement of the herbal medicine as something that that actually can destroy our health. I mean, I see that, for example, in Finland, when people go to doctors, and the doctor always tell them to don't take health because they destroy your liver or kidneys. Oh. And I think, destroy your liver or kidneys.
Oh. And I think this is that that's actually the problem. Why some so little amount of people want to try herbal traditional herbal medicine here, but it also gives an kind of answer how the the medical society is so against that. They also don't want the research.
[00:20:13] Unknown:
Yes. And I think it's it's not the right way to make people fear herbs and which is what happens if you tell as a medical doctor, you tell people to to not to use herbs because they can damage your kidneys or your liver.
[00:20:30] Unknown:
I don't know if you notice. I'm sorry. I will because I may lose my my my thought. If you notice in, quite often, in many conclusions about herbs are based on some one or two case histories. So for example there was a case, I read scientific papers and I see a case of like 70 years old woman for example who got liver damage after some herbs. Nobody takes into account any other chronic illnesses she she or he would have. Also what was the state of the liver and liver function before the person started taking the herbal medicine, and they don't look at the source of herbs. You know, nowadays, you can buy so many so called natural supplements of very poor quality.
Absolutely. They come they are not controlled, and they they may contain a lot of also, for example, heavy metals that I know to destroy or soluble or kidneys. And then you read this, like one case in a million that this happened, and in general, medical society starts to create this kind of picture that herbs are bad for us. They are dangerous. And they don't look at the fact, like, from where the medication came as first. Yes.
[00:22:03] Unknown:
Yes. Either they say, hey. The herbs, they don't work. Or they say, hey. They're dangerous. What is really the basic of the thing that just we should all get more knowledge and more, research about herbs, really good research, not not like crappy research, or that is based on like, just one person who got, like, liver damage.
[00:22:29] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes. But, you know, it's about money. You know, you need money to do that risk research as well. And there's not many foundations that would even like to, let's say, grant Mhmm. Give a grant for for this kind of, studies, which is unfortunate. But then I I look that, you know, everything, it's not only it's it cannot be only about evidence based. We have to look that okay. The current science and medical science, it's quite already developed, and it's developed in quite a short in in a historical scale, in quite a short period of time. But when you look at the tradition medicine, is it like our western herbal medicine or Chinese herbal medicine, Ayurveda? It's about thousands of years of expertise.
[00:23:26] Unknown:
Yes. Exactly.
[00:23:27] Unknown:
People know. People who who have knowledge in those fields, they know what they are doing. There's knowledge was carried from generations to generation, and, actually, I hope it won't be forgotten just because we have this tool of the modern medicine and this neglect towards the traditional approaches to to treat.
[00:23:53] Unknown:
Yes. And I think in in this viewpoint, it's very interesting to to know that the World Health Organization is also, putting more effort into, mapping the whole traditional herbal medicine that is used in different countries. They did this for the Chinese traditional Chinese medicine, and now they're trying to to map it for different cultures as well. And I think it's good because, yes, a lot of knowledge is just going extinct. And it's like some yeah. It's also kind of a heritage that we have as as a species and as as different cultures. And it's something to really cherish because it's so valuable instead of just
[00:24:40] Unknown:
throwing it away because we have modern medicine. Yes. And we should be proud of it.
[00:24:45] Unknown:
Yes. Absolutely. Yes. So you live in Finland at the moment? Yes. I was wondering how how if if you compare it, I hear that you still have family in Poland. Yes. So, if you compare it to, like, the Polish situation, how how is it so easy or how difficult is it to get access to high quality herbal preparations or to herbal schooling in these both countries? Could you tell a little bit more about that? Yes sure. So
[00:25:19] Unknown:
in Poland, we have quite developed I would say herbal industry. So you can really get high quality herbs and herbal extracts which are based on wild and cultivated herbs. And, there is a wide range of herbal preparation which are available in special herbal shops or pharmacies. But we have herbal shops in almost every town, not saying even big cities. So that's quite popular and, you know, you can go there and you can buy herbs in kilos. Yes. When I look at in Finland, there's only few shops that sell herbs or herbal preparations, and the amount is very limited. So dry herbs, like, to make, for example, tea, you can find maybe, like, 10 in those shops.
And in the amount of 50 to hundred grams only, the quality okay. In the quality is high. Finland really puts quite, big, let's say, pressure on the quality. So if you buy here, you know that it's it's pure and it's it's really it's active, you know. I mean, we have a lot of active compounds. It's prepared a good way, the proper way. Same is in Poland. But, for example, the education is quite different because in Finland, at least still two or three years ago, there were, like, two schools that were teaching on the weekends herbal, practices.
I think it was like one year course. Mhmm. And I think nowadays there's only one school left. And in Poland, it's totally opposite situation because we have a lot of established, schools, institutes that teach herbal medicine. Alright. And also you can study, you can take postgraduate studies or courses on herbs at some medical universities.
[00:27:43] Unknown:
Really?
[00:27:44] Unknown:
Yes. Okay. And still, I hope it will stay that way. So you can see the difference. Of course, in Poland, you don't study only herbal medicine like western herbal medicine, but there's a lot of also the spirituality exactly shamanism, which is not that popular in Finland. I mean, there are some schools which teach, shamanism, but, they are again, like, some weekend courses. So the difference is quite big, you know, between these two countries in, regards to education. Yes. To herbal medicine education. Yes. Yep. I will correct that because Finland has quite quite high quality education system, otherwise.
About registration of the profession, so in Poland, Medical Herbalists are treated as registered professionals. Mhmm. That's not in Finland. So you can you you know, everybody can call himself here, like, on a medical herbalist, but for your good, you need to have a diploma.
[00:29:00] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:29:01] Unknown:
And, that's a bit of plus also but there are minuses. The minus is that as a not registered profession you cannot go get client insurance which is quite problematic because, you can for example, if person comes to your practice and unfortunately breaks the leg, of course, then the insurance would cover that. But if the some damage occurs because you you may dismiss something or, misdiagnose the person, the insurance will not cover that. In Poland, it will cover because it's a registered, profession and there are special insurances that would covered cover that. Right. So you see, practicing herbal medicine in Finland is more challenging, but, I see that nowadays more and more people start to a bit turn back to natural medicine. And when I get the client, I always ask how you found me and why you actually I want to even use herbs.
And the most I mean, the most common answer is because none of the doctors help me. So this is the still in Finland, this is kind of the last, option. Yeah. Yes. In in Poland, it's not because, in many people because it's still in our tradition. Yes. Quite often people when they get ill, they first grab herbs and if you go to like let's say old school doctors or probably person who is already 70 years old, they still may prescribe you herbs. Ah. At the first, first, remedies, but the newest generation of the doctors have not much knowledge about herbs, and they go only to into pharmaceuticals.
And they start to also be slowly against the natural medicine, and I think it's coming also from the education they get.
[00:31:23] Unknown:
Yes. Probably. Yeah. Mhmm. So so That's really interesting.
[00:31:28] Unknown:
It is. So you see there the difference even it's in Europe, but we have quite a big difference between the countries and the approach towards her about many things. Yes. And is there,
[00:31:41] Unknown:
like, when you compare Finland to Poland, I think I already know the answer a little bit from what you previously told me, but is it like a huge difference when it comes to basic general knowledge of plants in the general population?
[00:31:59] Unknown:
Yes. It will definitely. So as I well, we discussed, Polish people still know some basics. At least maybe still my generation or my my parents, definitely, my grandparents. And I hope it will I mean, people will start to get interested more and more, which actually I see that in Poland, coming. In Finland, about so there's many people, you know, Finnish people really admire nature. So in Finland people really value nature and well-being. However if I look at at more natural approaches, they are very oriented into scientific based approaches.
So, nowadays, there's a quite big boom about functional food like for example, dried berries, extracts, Yes. Pirollina and all of all the similar similar things. So I think Finns are more prone into trying those instead of traditional herbal preparations. Because of course the knowledge, I see that the herbal knowledge is quite forgotten in Finland. Even Finland has quite a long history of a natural healing methods and I think it was in nineteenth century when one writer, actually doctor also, he put together all this information and write them down. Still, people don't recognize herbal medicine as one of the important ways of treatment.
And it comes also from this whole as I told you, the approach that everything here must be evidence based, scientifically proven, and people are, really looking at a different you know, they have quite big knowledge here. Like, they really search by themselves into scientific papers and, and want to know more. But as we discussed before, there's not much research done on herbal medicines. Of course, they they miss those article. And if they they found something, it can be quite negative also.
[00:34:35] Unknown:
Yes. Yes. And I think it's also quite, well, worrisome actually that you say that that there used to be a rich herbal tradition in Finland, but just in a few generations, it got wiped out.
[00:34:48] Unknown:
Yes. Yeah. When you feel it's quite it's quite sad. Yes. It's quite sad. But, you know, it comes from the whole system, actually. That's my my belief. I mean, the way how I observe, let's say, that if, if you go to well, it's here it's quite developed an educational system, which is very good. Many people are highly educated. So they look at the evidence base. They look at the science. And because the system is made such the medical system is made such that, you know, it doesn't allow this natural healing methods to be part of the whole treatment process. Mhmm.
People don't look at this themselves, and only people who are long chronically ill will will turn into natural
[00:35:49] Unknown:
healing methods. They feel hopeless. Yes. Absolutely.
[00:35:52] Unknown:
Absolutely. And, or people who have already some knowledge or somehow involved in natural ways of thinking. So I have I have customers who are, for example, a Chinese medicine practitioner.
[00:36:09] Unknown:
Ah, yes. Acupuncturist.
[00:36:12] Unknown:
And they come to me, and for them, it's something normal. You know? They just want this another approach to to, to look at the health.
[00:36:21] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:36:23] Unknown:
So, so I see that, you know, it's it's really challenging here. But I I also see that there is the starts to be slowly some turn towards the natural, healing. It's still covered by a lot of this scientifically must be based information or nowadays also boom in in technology. They use a lot of, which is also good because it helps them to track their own health, but they lose a lot of use a lot of technology towards that self treatment.
[00:37:04] Unknown:
I think that's very fascinating what you say that, like, Chinese people come to you as a client because they they have, like, this cultural framework of herbalism. It's ingrained into their culture. And I think in Europe, we could get this back in the countries where it's lost. We should get it back as a cultural framework that we can, like, refer to or that we can rely on when it's when it's needed.
[00:37:30] Unknown:
I think the I think the beauty would be if medical society would like to collaborate with Yes. Natural medicine practitioners because and create this integrative approach, you know, because as we discussed, modern medicine is quite good in treating the act the quite acute health problems. But, quite often what comes after the acute, which is not treated well or it develops into the chronic, and then it's something that we could combine this knowledge. Yes. Yes. And not only It would be a win win situation if this could happen. Absolutely. Win win. And the the most important, it's not about the win win for two professions. It's the win win for the client, for the pay people.
[00:38:25] Unknown:
Yes. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, really. So I'm wondering what would your advice be to someone who is interested in exploring herbalism as a career in a European context?
[00:38:40] Unknown:
I think just looks looking for well, if if a person doesn't really know if that would be the the path, it would be maybe quite, interesting to explore some courses, like basic courses, like, few months courses on herbal medicine, and then see if that's kind of if that resonances with them. And if if it does, then I would look for, schools that offer, herbal medicine education. Of course, you can do even, like, long studies on online nowadays, and that's that's fine. I would look at schools which offer clinical practice because it's something I had at the school hours, and it really prepared me to work with the clients.
And understanding also that, you know, when the person talks about symptoms, it's not just about listening, but you observing the person Mhmm. Body, like skin, for example, gestures, and their jet level. And, so you see, we as the medical herbalist, we don't we cannot diagnose, you know, we cannot diagnose, but, for our purposes to prescribe something, we do in our health our own diagnosis. And just listening is not enough. You really have to observe the person, and you learn that during the clinical training. So I would suggest that, you know, go for school, which offers also that, and that's, that's actually quite an interesting journey. Yes. And the same I could tell about peep for people who are chronically ill because I know and I understand how it feels to be sick for years without getting help. It's frustrating, and it's quite depressing.
But we can look at the situation, like, as something totally negative, yeah, and get down even more. Or then, you know, look at a possibility. This is not a problem. It's my experience. And because during that experience, you can develop something that will be beneficial for you for the rest of your life. You may learn something more about yourself. You can realize who are your real friends. You can totally build your life again from scratch the way you want and the way that resonates with you. At the beginning of my sickness, I know I'm telling now it sounds so like beautiful story ahead. No. At the beginning, it wasn't beautiful story for me. It was it was extremely challenging.
But towards, my recovery, and I knew that still I have quite a long journey to go, I still change the way of thinking about it. That at something that well, you know, it's it's my blessing. It's for my physical body, it's not blessing at all. But for me, for the whole of my for my life, it's a blessing. And I hope people with chronic illness will start to look at this that way to also make them keep more positivity and which is difficult when you are sick. But when you are more positive or you see that there is a goal, you have a goal there, it's easier to recover because you put all the strength Yes. Into recovery. Your power, you and your mental power, your physical power into the recovery.
[00:42:36] Unknown:
I'm I'm wondering. So you've been trained as a biomedical scientist, and then you you're working as a medical herbalist. So how do your skills as a medical biomedical scientist complement your work as a medical herbalist? Or how does especially when it comes to, like, chronic illnesses, how what unique insights do these, combinations of the two give you?
[00:43:03] Unknown:
I think for me, it creates a unique approach, you know, to address the chronic illnesses because as a medical scientist, I have a deep understanding of the physiological and biochemical mechanics that underline many dysregulations in the body that may lead to chronic illnesses. And also, I, you know, for me, it's maybe easier. I'm not saying it's nothing against any other therapies to what I'm saying here. But maybe for me, it's just easier to interpret the scientific data. Mhmm. Mhmm. Because, you know, I've been a scientist for around twenty years of my life. Yeah. And, this scientific foundation also allows me for more, I would say, precise identification of different imbalances like nutritional deficiencies or environmental toxins and using, different functional medicine approaches to identify those, those imbalances.
On the other hand, the training in a herbal medicine gave me this holistic perspective. So focusing on the different interconnections of body system and their interactions and how to support body's own ability to heal. So herbal medicines offer, of course, century known traditional knowledge, but also a bit of evidence base now as well. So I can I can combine the scientific, you know, way of thinking, which is quite, I would say, it's quite strict? At least for me, the mind is, let's say, I would say I'm quite sharp in it in the in the moment in the in the sense that, you know, when I focus on something, I will do that job to the end.
And when I read, I really don't read one article, but if I see something that I don't understand, I start to dig into into different articles and connect the dots. And I think that was a blessing for me to be scientist when I was sick because I was able to connect different, you know, mechanics. I was really, it sounds funny, but I I had a piece of paper, big piece of paper when I draw myself in the middle, and I was drawing drawing different molecular pathways and looking at the connections between them and looking at the different, you know, root causes, what could cause which which disbalance.
And this way, I managed to collect all this information and heal. So, so I think it's for me, it's definitely a unique unique combination, which, works for me. Maybe that's wouldn't work for for other people.
[00:46:18] Unknown:
Yes. But I think it's a very complimentary system that you have here. Wow. Wow. Very impressive. One thing I wanted to talk with you, about also is what I found, Patricia, particularly interesting is your work in addressing, like, mold exposure, disease and, toxic toxins, in the system like heavy metals. Mhmm. So I'm wondering how how do you use herbal support for these,
[00:46:51] Unknown:
these things? Mhmm. Yes. Definitely. Like, environmental illnesses are something I specialize the most because of my personal experience. And, you know, herbs are super powerful, but they should be prescribed very individually. So even we did we will discuss what I do, it it's not a prescription for everybody. Yes. Yes. So people should, keep this in mind. Mhmm. So, you know, first, you have to support the toxification organs because the mold illness, well, that would need to be another topic because it's a huge topic. Mold illness includes mold toxicity, meaning the presence of mold toxins, mycotoxins. So you have to remove them from the body.
Sometimes there's a colonization of the mold also in the body, so you have to use some antifungals. But my approach is that, you know, I will not tell you in in the proper order because the order changes for every client, but you have to support detoxification organs like liver, like kidney. So for example, milk thistle because it's not only supports the liver in the toxification, but also protects the liver cells from the damage from those toxins, then, Bulldog root, for example, because it's not just only a liver herb, but it's also, supports the lymphatic drainage, which helps to remove the toxins from the tissues.
Then next one, we have to remember that chemical toxins or bio biotoxins, so not only toxins that comes from mold, but also different infections like bacteria, viruses, or parasites. So different biotoxins, dysregulate the immune system. So the immune system depends of the toxin type, will, and the arm of the immune system. So these toxins may lead to actual suppression of the immune system and in long term actually lead even to cancer or the overreaction of the immune system and development of different allergies or muscle activation.
So we have to stabilise the immune system as first as well. Then when you look where the immune system is located mostly, it's the gut. 80% of the immune system is in our gut. So you have to support the gut, and toxins and mold cause quite severe dysbiosis. You have to treat this dye dysbiosis to bring back the immune system to balance. Next one, you have to support the nervous system because the biotoxins or chemical synthetics toxins will also affect the nervous system, and the person may develop, like, for example, anxiety, brain fog, fatigue.
And, and that's actually I want to stop here and and tell for moment and and tell why there's quite a big neglect from medical specialist towards, for example, mold illness or multiple chemical sensitivity because they think it's in the head. It's it's a mental illness. Mhmm. Because quite often what they see, they see people coming there with anxiety, with a depression, and they think, okay. So it's just in their head. They are depressed. That's why they think they have more illness or chemical sensitivity. It's opposite way because those toxins will lead to such a changes out on the brain level, out on the neurotransmitter level that actually they may lead to symptoms of anxiety and depression.
So you have to support that because you have to also make the person's life easier, you know, to to to to manage that disease. So, definitely, the mental health, the nervous system has to be supported. Then you have to bind those toxins. There are different ways to bind the toxins, and then you look at different symptoms. So, for example, one person may have respiratory issues. So, of course, you give herbs that supports the lung function, lung detox as well. Or if there's skin issues, of course, you want to support the skin as well, like, locally. But, you know, most most skin issues come from what's happening in the body inside. So you have to support liver. You have to support the detox system, the the proper flora, the the microbiome.
And, you know, so the the approach is quite of big. But if you combine all of this at the same time of at different times, because people are so it was people's maltiness or chemical sensitive to also Lyme disease. They're extremely sensitive. Of course, you have to know also how to approach this. You cannot give, like, bunch of herbs and say, okay. Drink this three times per day because it won't work.
[00:52:21] Unknown:
Yes. And I love how you'd say that is how you say that it is a personalized approach that is needed because everybody's different, everybody has their own history, different issues. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And it's it was very interesting to hear you talk about the mental health connection, because I think, yes, indeed, that is often something that is, overseen by medical science or, like, by medical professionals.
[00:52:49] Unknown:
And it's Absolutely. It's so, you know, so many people nowadays have mental health problems, which actually the root cause may not be only the stress, prolonged stress or traumas. But I see quite often in clients exactly the mold, illness, different biotoxins, even parasites can cause anxiety because they produce such a toxic compounds, like metabolites, that will affect our nervous system. And, for example, thyroid problem will also lead to depression and anxiety. So, you know, we have to if if we talk about mental health, yeah, the person should get support from maybe psychologists, some therapy, but we need to really find the root causes, all the root causes that cause those because, even it's called as a disease, I believe it's a symptom of something.
Even even symptom of stress, symptom of trauma, or symptom of biological origin.
[00:53:53] Unknown:
Yes. Very interesting. So I'm wondering about where, at the moment, you are now in having your biochemical background and your background as a medical herbalist. Where do you find new inspiration or new knowledge?
[00:54:12] Unknown:
Oh, there's always something to learn new. You know? So I look at the I look at old books, like, really old school books, because I I've been, you know, as a medical scientist, I've been studying, like, modern science and modern medicine, and then I study western herbal medicine. But nowadays, I'm also quite interested about energetics, spirituality, and more like even more much much deeper traditional approaches. If you want to learn that, you will have to find old old books. Sometimes you find something interesting like that on the Internet too, but old books are the the main source.
[00:54:59] Unknown:
Yes. Yes. I agree. I have, so many old books, and it's sometimes it's really interesting to see how I mean, these books date back to a certain period of time, but they still had even then, they already had, like, some insight in in compounds chemical compounds of herbs. And I'm always amazed by it, how much they actually already knew back then. Absolutely. Yes. Just by observing and by by using them. Mhmm. Very, very interesting. Yes.
[00:55:33] Unknown:
And look at the astronomy. You know? We have all this truth now to see what's in the universe, but people, like, even few thousand years ago, they may they were able to predict, like, weather based on observing the sky only. And they were the agriculture were also based on the observation, the nature observation.
[00:55:59] Unknown:
They were reading nature, actually. We a lot of us have lost this ability to to read nature because we don't have the knowledge anymore about nature. Like, because of plant knowledge, I know exactly when I see certain plants, which seeds are only spread by ants, then I know, okay, there are ants here. Even though I do not see them, I know they are here. This is reading the landscape, and I I think it's a particularly interesting, part about herbalism that you can or you can see somewhere, like, a meadow that is quite dry in summer. But if you see, like, a Valerian there and meadow sweet, you know that it will be wet area in the winter. And, yes, I don't know if you know, the the work of natural navigator.
It's a really interesting concept. So he says, yeah, people were able to orient themselves not only by how the sun was standing, but also by the stars and by looking at the bark of trees and see where the moss is growing and all of this. And we have just lost these abilities and we can we can regain them, of course, but it's I see not enough people, like, worrying about,
[00:57:16] Unknown:
losing these abilities because it's like a basic life skill. Mhmm. And it's, you know, it's interesting what you told just a second ago because this knowledge, I still learn at the prime at the beginning of my primary school. Exactly how you orient yourself in nature by observing the nature. And when I look at, like kids nowadays, they don't learn that anymore. So it was kind of interesting. You know? See? Poland has this tradition, quite deep tradition, unfortunately, because of the education system is changing. Every government changes the education system. Many things are lost.
[00:57:59] Unknown:
Yes. What what do you think should happen to to make sure that not more knowledge is going extinct is going lost? Knowledge about your plants work or or about navigating ourselves in nature or
[00:58:15] Unknown:
or I think we have to we have to dig the information ourselves. We cannot count that this knowledge will come because it would require, governments and different institutions, also different companies including pharma companies, like chemical companies to change their approach And they they will not do that, at least not in the near future. So it's only about us as as I told that our health is in our hand, not in the hand of therapist or doctor. It's the same about the knowledge. The knowledge is there. You have to dig it.
[00:58:57] Unknown:
It's about us. We have to do it. Yes. That's that's a lovely way to end this, very interesting conversation.
[00:59:06] Unknown:
Thank you so much, Anita, for your time. So much. It was really, really interesting. Words.
[00:59:11] Unknown:
I'm wondering, if people want to find out more about your work, where can they find information?
[00:59:17] Unknown:
On my website, for example, like www.anitawashik.com. Vasik by w. And, I have also social media account, so doctor Anita Vasik, so people can find me there.
[00:59:36] Unknown:
Alright. Thank you so much. Thank you again. Wildling that was listening. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. See you the next time. But in the meantime, keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye bye.
[00:59:54] Unknown:
A warm thank you for listening, Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there. But for now, just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Introduction to Wild Podcast
Meet Anita Worschik: A Journey into Herbalism
Challenges in Modern Medicine and Chronic Illness
Herbal Traditions Across Europe
Herbal Knowledge in Finland vs. Poland
Integrating Biomedical Science with Herbalism
Addressing Mold Exposure and Toxins with Herbs
Preserving Herbal Knowledge and Cultural Heritage
