Lisen Sundgren is a herbalist, forager, nature and forest therapy guide, and author from Sweden. As a child she already went foraging and was taught the botanical names of plants by her grandfather.
Later on in life, after suffering a burnout and moving back from New York to Sweden, the herbs took her into their world. She started studying the healing effects of nature, edible and medicinal plants and became a professional herbalist.
We had a wildly interesting conversation.
About why children should learn about wild plants in school, like it used to be in the time of our grandparents.
About how we are part of nature and how we need plants for our survival.
About what it's like to work as a herbalist in Sweden.
About how foraging became more popular again since the introduction of the New Nordic Cuisine, and even more so during the pandemic in 2020.
About being in the here and now while foraging and the link with mindfulness.
About the Swedish "Right of Public Access", or 'Allemansrätten', which gives everyone the freedom to forage everywhere with respect for nature and animals.
About the use of medicinal plants in Sweden.
About foraging in different seasons and how the long cold and dark winters affect foraging.
And lots more.
You can find more information about Lisen, her work and her books on her website:
https://www.lifebylisen.com/
Or follow her on Instagram @lifebylisen
🌿 I'm looking for more interesting guests to talk about European herbalism and foraging in Europe. If you know anyone that would be perfect for this podcast, please let me know.
If you want to reach out, you can find me on Instagram @wildplantforager, and on Facebook.
You can also find more about me or contact me through my website www.wildplantforager.com
But please don't hang around online for too long. Go outside, and follow your wild heart 💚
🎼 music by Eva LaRuna
Disclaimer:
The information in the WYLDE podcast has been compiled with the utmost care. We try to keep it as current, complete and accurate as possible, yet no rights can be derived from this podcast episode.
We accept no liability for: direct or indirect damages resulting from possible errors and omissions, the content of linked websites, or the opinions of interviewed guests.
Please take into account that transcripts were automatically created by A.I. and may contain mistakes.
The content of this podcast in no way replaces personal medical advice or treatment by doctors and other medical professionals.
[00:00:00]
Unknown:
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager or through my website, wildplantforager.com. thank you so much. Much. Welcome to Wild the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2, 2002. In those years I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular. But I've also seen time is running out for our planet.
As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others it's almost illegal. I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and, and plants. And that's why for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you're ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to.
Wow. Welcome wildly to this new episode of the Wildie podcast for Wildlings. Working with plants just like you. And today I have a guest from Sweden, Lisen Sundkren. Am I pronouncing that right?
[00:02:27] Unknown:
You are pronouncing that very well, thank you.
[00:02:31] Unknown:
how did your journey with plants get started? Was it something that was already present in your childhood or has it developed later on in life? Tell us.
[00:02:40] Unknown:
It's a combination. I grew up, you know, ah, outside of Stockholm in a house with a garden. So it was easily, easily accessible for me to go out and forage for nettles and, and dandelions and, you know, all those fairly, common plants. And also my grandfather was very botanically interested and he taught me the botanical names of people plants. He was like, that's very important to know, you know, is Bellis perennis and mirisodoratum. And you know, so, so that's always been with me in a very natural way. You know, we used to go foraging for, for, for blueberries and, and wild strawberries and things when I was a child. So, it's, it's always been a part of my. It's in my DNA. So, later on, the herbs really took me, into their world, when I was. I mean, I've always been interested in. In, you know, eating healthy foods and curious about what makes me feel good, you know. So I was living in London and Paris and New York as young, in big cities, you know, super active lives, life and very ambitious. And I was living in New York for many years where I got interested in yoga and health and herbs for a little bit. But then I was burnt out and I went back to Sweden. And the only thing I wanted to do, the only thing that I could sort of visualize or just do because I was just, you know, everything was very dark. I would just go out in the. Into the forest every single day. And eventually I started getting curious about the plants around me. And, after that I, did a, one year herbalist training where the wild plants were a big part of it. And, so it just grew from there. And then I started working at a place called Rosendalsgarden in Stockholm, which is a biodynamic farm. And the herbs, you know, wild as well as cultivated plants. I just, you know, it was just like I couldn't see anything else. I was completely drawn in, by their scents and tastes and beings, you know.
So, eventually, to make a very long story short, I changed my path from, acting to becoming a herbalist. And that was in 2000.
[00:05:09] Unknown:
So I think it's totally fascinating that your grandfather actually taught you the Latin names, the botanical names.
[00:05:16] Unknown:
Yeah. But, you know, I don't know how it was in Belgium, but in Sweden, in the olden days, the kids in school had to learn. They had to go. They had to make a herbarium. Herbarium. so they would go out and gather, specific species of plants and press them and, you know, put them on a. Glue them onto a piece of paper and write the let. They had to learn the botanical names. They had to write where it was found and what date. And, So that had been a part of his childhood. And then he, you know, carried that with him all his life.
[00:05:53] Unknown:
And does it still happen in schools?
[00:05:56] Unknown:
No, but I think it should.
[00:05:59] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty similar in Belgium here. The older people. I still have some herbarium of older people that gifted them to me, and I think it's so precious. but, yeah, I don't know why this suddenly stopped because to me it's learning an essential skill. About the world that you're living in.
[00:06:23] Unknown:
Exactly. And that we are part of.
[00:06:25] Unknown:
Yes. And this is a thing that hasn't changed. No, the plants are still the same. And, So I don't know why they stopped doing this.
[00:06:34] Unknown:
No, I think it would be great if they picked it up again because it. It does remind us of our symbiosis, you know, without. We are part of nature. So, we are nature. And if we. Many people today forget that. So they think that, well, we can just take what we want from nature and live in our cities, far from the wild and, still have food and clothes and. But we won't, you know, we need the plants for our survival and because it makes us feel good to hang out with the plants.
[00:07:08] Unknown:
Absolutely.
[00:07:09] Unknown:
You know, it's good for your health and for your mental health and especially for kids today that are so exposed to social media and frames and, you know, overwhelmed, really.
[00:07:21] Unknown:
Yes. they don't have any rest and peace and quiet in their brains anymore. And I think it's urgently needed that they just spend much more time in nature.
[00:07:31] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes, for sure.
[00:07:33] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:07:34] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:07:34] Unknown:
So is working with plants as a herbalist and a forager, is it like a common thing in Sweden, Something that is still done traditionally, or is it more of a rare thing?
[00:07:46] Unknown:
It's, you know, when I started, doing workshops and things, 24 years ago, it was not common. But, you know, there was. It was an older generation that, held the knowledge because when they were young in the 70s, you know, there was the green wave. So then it was cool to grow herbs and forage and eating dandelions and nettles and all that. And, then it was the generation before that, my grandmother, who was born in 1919, I think she lives through two wars, one war, and learn to grow vegetables and. And, tend sheep and also use wild vegetables, you know, because it's. It's what they had.
So, when I started, no, it wasn't very common at all. And a few. I. I remember my first wild walk that I was teaching. I think it was pouring rain, and I think three people came. And I'm so, I'm so grateful to those three or five. I can't remember. we were walking around with our umbrellas and I was talking about, you know, gout weed and nettles and yarrow and all those things. Very enthusiastic. And, since then, I've done hundreds and hundreds of wild walks because I've noticed the growth over the years. And Something happened about 15 years ago when the new Nordic Kitchen was launched, which was a big thing. and then the chefs. Because prior to that, like in the 90s, I remember crossover Kitchen, you know, when it was, trendy to have the whole world gathered on a plate, you know, eating croc, crocodile from Australia and mango from Thailand. You know, everything. The whole world should be on the plate.
Plate. Today, that seems just outrageous, right? So within the new Nordic Kitchen, chefs wanted to use what was grown locally. And ideally, they want to, you know, take their bike to the nearest farmer and dig up their own carrots and, you know, bike back to the restaurant. And. But, And so they also open their eyes to the wild food because, brings. I mean, chefs think about flavor foremost. You know me, I can be like, oh, it's nutrition, but. But it's like, flavor. So, the. The wild foods have some. Some of the plants have really exceptional flavors that are a good complement to the cultivated vegetables. So I started foraging with. For restaurants and teaching chefs, you know, how to, you know, identify plants and how to use stuff like that.
So, when that sort of. That. That era opened up a whole new world because people, you know, they go to restaurants and found, yarrow leaf on their plate. They'd be like, oh, this is very cool. And, so then I. There was a whole new interest, and I started writing books about the wild plant. I wrote three books about wild plants. And, the interest just grew and grew and grew. And during the pandemic, people couldn't hang, out indoors, right? So they had to, spend time together outdoors and looking for things to do. So me, as a forager and as a nature and forest therapy guide, I was super busy during the pandemic. So the interest really grew because people were spending so much time outdoors and, want, to. Just something to do.
So, And I think there's many reasons why the interest is growing. It's. It's, because, some. Some people are preppers. You know, they want to be prepared, you know, for the worst. Great. others are more sort, of lifestyle oriented. It's like, oh, I like to hike or hunt or whatever it is they do, and then they want to be able to pick their food. others have more sort of health, you know, approach and are looking for the nutrition and the variety, eating a more varied diet. So, and others are more into sustainability. So it's. It's beautiful because it doesn't really matter what door you choose to go into, as long as you find it leads to nature, Right?
[00:12:13] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:12:14] Unknown:
Home. Yes.
[00:12:15] Unknown:
Yeah. From what I hear, it's pretty similar in Belgium also. and I have to say I love to have chefs on my foraging courses. Because you're right, they think in flavors, and it's so interesting and so enriching to, you know, you let them taste something and they just start, oh, I could combine it with this or with that and just make combination that I would have never thought of. So it's always very inspiring.
[00:12:42] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so funny. I don't do it so much anymore. But. But while I was foraging for restaurants, you know, I would come with my bags through the kitchen door and leaving my bags there, and I felt like a bag lady and. And you know, with soil on my hands, of course I washed them in the kitchen. But, then I would go and eat there and. Just to see what they had created. Yeah, just to see.
[00:13:08] Unknown:
It's amazing.
[00:13:09] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:11] Unknown:
So is there in Sweden a difference in, like, basic botanical skills in more remote areas, you think, than, in cities or.
[00:13:23] Unknown:
I think now it's getting better, but I think the skills have been pretty poor, actually. And I think it's because we don't have that natural interaction with nature. now because the interest is growing. You know, people who have been foraging for a month and just learning are like, oh, I'm a forager, but I remember there was a chef, who once was like, oh, I found this great plant. It tastes like oyster. I'm going to use it in an oyster dish. And it was, it in English with sipa. It's part of the ranunculus family. So it was a toxic plant. So, you know, it's like m.
You really have to know what you're doing if you're going to serve this at your restaurant. but in general, yeah, I find it's quite mixed. But I always try to start from, from the very beginning at my walks because some people haven't, you know, there's, you know, of the concept plant blindness. Yeah. And I find that's extremely common. And so I always encourage people to start with the plants that they do know. Like, most people will know dandelion. Yeah, yeah, most people will know more.
[00:14:37] Unknown:
With that than, they would have ever imagined.
[00:14:40] Unknown:
Exactly. So why try to learn 30 plants in one go? Start with one or two plants that are easily available to you and then go from there. Because there's also, there's the plant blindness. That's an issue. And also learning, you know, becoming intimate with a plant and learning what, what time of the year is which part best. Like if you take dandelion, for example. Yeah. You want to take leaves, but not in July. Right. I mean, you can, you can, but. But they taste. If you're a beginner, take them in spring.
[00:15:15] Unknown:
Yes. When they're less bitter.
[00:15:17] Unknown:
Yes, exactly. And then the root is, you know, before and after bloom. And the bud, when it's a bud, you know, so you have to, So I always encourage people to go slowly because, the knowledge is not, it's not so deep.
[00:15:31] Unknown:
Yeah. I remember people asking me about, about flowers and seeds, on plants and.
[00:15:39] Unknown:
They say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[00:15:41] Unknown:
Leave. Are you telling me that in order to have a seed, you have to have a flower first? Like, oh, that is the order in which it always happens. And I thought, whoa, this is like next level plant blindness. Really.
[00:15:55] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly.
[00:15:57] Unknown:
It's kind of sad, really. It's really sad.
[00:16:01] Unknown:
It's horrendous.
[00:16:02] Unknown:
Nature.
[00:16:03] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's really why I do what I do. You know, I think it's great that and you know, to be able to say it's great to share recipes and stuff, but for me it's more about the experience of going out in nature and being in search of plants. Because that's when you, you have to slow down.
[00:16:24] Unknown:
Right.
[00:16:24] Unknown:
You can't be in a hurry and you can't be in a hurry when you pick the plants because you have to, you know, be conscious of how you do it and how much can you take. And and suddenly you hear the birds and you may be feeling the sunshine on your back and suddenly you're breathing a little deeper to. And, and suddenly you're like seeing new things with this little plant, you know, like, wow, I never saw that. Nettles, the hairs are actually all going in the same direction, you know, and to me, that's the adventure. Yeah.
[00:17:00] Unknown:
It's about being in the here and now, where in a lot of other aspects in our life, we're just constantly distracted by social media and other things that just make us to another place or to another time instead of being in the here and now, which is really all there really is.
[00:17:19] Unknown:
And, focus on one thing.
[00:17:21] Unknown:
Right, exactly.
[00:17:23] Unknown:
Without being interrupted and tempted to go on Instagram or. And also, I mean, herbs are slow medicine. You know, as a herbalist, I also use herbs for medicine and, and most of them, I mean, some can have an immediate effect, like if you need something for sleep, yeah. You can take valerian or something and that's great. But most of them work over time, you know, so they're really teaching us. We have to get to know them. They work over time. Not all plants are right for us. Like some do really well on lemon balm for sleep, others do really well on, on yeah, valerian or passion flower.
And you have to sort of learn what dosage is right for you. and we're not used to that.
[00:18:15] Unknown:
Instant gratification that we have all the time.
[00:18:18] Unknown:
Oh yes.
[00:18:19] Unknown:
Patience and about slowing down and.
[00:18:21] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:18:22] Unknown:
This is medicine in itself already.
[00:18:24] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's why when people ask. So okay, so what's healthy about this plants and, and what, what are the active ingredients or what nutrition is in there? I'm like. But it's so much more Than just the active ingredients or the minerals or even though they are important. But yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
[00:18:45] Unknown:
Yeah. So for me as a Belgian herbalist and forager, I can only dream of the amount of natural spaces that you still have in Sweden compared to Belgium.
[00:18:57] Unknown:
Oh my goodness, yes.
[00:19:01] Unknown:
however, m. I think most people, and it's probably similar in Sweden, most people still live in cities, not in the ah, countryside. So are there enough green areas, for people in more urban spaces? And are there like urban forager foraging opportunities or so now.
[00:19:22] Unknown:
And now there's more herbalists and foragers around. So I think we have, we do have. Sweden is beautiful that way. That we do have a lot of green space. And I live in Stockholm. I also have a cottage, in Serumland. And so I have a lot of opportunity, to forage because here where I live in the city, I live near a big huge park where I can go out and forage. And we have what's called alemanzretan. I don't. You don't have that in about that?
[00:19:53] Unknown:
Because I've heard that on some conditions you can even forge on other people's property. Yeah. Like. Is that a thing?
[00:20:02] Unknown:
I know.
[00:20:02] Unknown:
Okay, tell me all about it.
[00:20:04] Unknown:
Yeah. So alamansreten is a beautiful things. It means in English it's all, man's right to access. So it means that we are allowed to gather, plants, leaves, and flowers, but not. And mushrooms and berries, but not roots or branches. So we are allowed to do that, even on private property, which I don't recommend people to do when I teach because I think it's. I wouldn't want anybody to go into my garden and pick my dandelion. So I always say ask kindly, you know, ask politely. Probably nobody's going to say no if you ask, can I have your dandelion roots? You know, but, but yeah. So the law is, I mean there is a lot of private forest where I have my country house and yes, I am allowed to go there and forage for sure. And I do.
But with that said and Alamasiratan, it's not a law but it's just something given to us for us to be responsible for. So it also says we should not destroy or bother. Like we shouldn't bother animals for example. and we shouldn't. If you find a whole patch of, I don't know, sweet woodruff, or wild garlic, don't take the whole batch because the plant then you are spoiling the plants ability to grow back, you know. So I always say don't take more than 10%. I know that's very little. Some M. People say 20, some people say 25. I think better to take less.
[00:22:05] Unknown:
I'm in team 10% as well. Yes.
[00:22:07] Unknown:
Yeah. And leave the rest to. For the plant so it can keep living and and regenerate. And there are other animals that are dependent on these plants and there are insects that are dependent on these plants. We can go to a shop and buy food, they can't. So. And we need for those insects and animals to live so that we can live healthy lives on the planet. So you know, it's all interconnected and I also think it's a great idea to cultivate if you have the opportunity, if you have a piece of land, grow some of those wild plants because it's not going to be sustainable that if you know, the more foragers around there's going to be it's not going to be sustainable for all of us to just go out and forage. So I think if you have a piece of land, grow your own nettles.
[00:23:02] Unknown:
Yes. I advise, I give the same advice to people. And also it's increasing the biodiversity in people. So it's a win, win sit. And you don't have to go a very far distance just to pick your wild vegetables. So it's.
[00:23:17] Unknown:
Yes, it's like a garden, kitchen garden. Yeah. So yeah, keep a wild corner in your garden and you know, some piles of wood for the insects.
[00:23:28] Unknown:
And what I love about the legal frame, it's that like it's a right. But it's also a duty. Yes, yes. It has both sides. And that's ah, how it should be. I know that I read about former, kings in Ireland. They had to marry the land. And I just love this whole concept.
[00:23:50] Unknown:
They had to marry the land.
[00:23:51] Unknown:
They had to marry the land. Like, you know, just like you. You say, to your husband or to your wife, I will take care of you, I will be good to you. I won't harm you. They did the same to the land. And I think that's such a beautiful.
[00:24:06] Unknown:
Kind of love that. Because what happens is, I see foragers, abusing that right that we have and taking the whole patch of wild garlic or whatever it is, for selling. And what we also see here in Sweden, which is a problem, is that people are throwing garbage out in nature. So I always say, you know, in the olden days, indigenous people would give. They would first ask for permission. Can I, you know, the plant spirit. Can I, can I pick you or can I use it? Can you help me? and if the plant said yes, it was okay. And then afterwards they would say thank you by giving something back. Like some indigenous people in America would, give tobacco.
Or like, I heard a story where people who lived up in the mountains in South America would give a shell from the sea to the plant in the mountain and vice versa because, you know, it's a gift they couldn't go and find themselves. So our, our way of reciprocate. Reciprocating. I can't speak. Giving something back is, I think by picking up garbage.
[00:25:30] Unknown:
I'm, I'm telling the same to my students.
[00:25:32] Unknown:
You are amazing.
[00:25:35] Unknown:
It's nice to see so many similarities. Really.
[00:25:38] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:39] Unknown:
I think. Yeah. And sometimes I, they post pictures, of this, my students and I see just trash bags full.
[00:25:48] Unknown:
Yeah, I know. And it takes five minutes. Yeah. Yes.
[00:25:53] Unknown:
It's really appalling.
[00:25:55] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:25:56] Unknown:
I, Yeah. I don't understand people who are. Who are. And I think this is the mind shift that we have to have. Because some people will ask the question, yes, but why would you forage in a place that has a lot of trash? But the real question is why are people throwing trash on. On food?
[00:26:19] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:26:21] Unknown:
That is.
[00:26:21] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:22] Unknown:
Mind shift we should really have about people thinking about nature. And it's crazy how people can just. They don't mind really, and they just throw their trash out.
[00:26:34] Unknown:
Yeah. And I think this is part of the, the lost connection. Is people think they can throw garbage on the ground because they don't really care what's going to happen with it. They don't realize that in fact they're cutting off their own foot because in the long run it's going to harm us the way we treat nature, you know. So, I think that's part of or symptom of the whole problem of the lost connection, which is what I think foraging is. Foraging is not so much, you know, for our part of the world. There's so we have such an abundance of food. So I think for us the foraging is more about making connection.
[00:27:17] Unknown:
Right.
[00:27:18] Unknown:
Nature is to listen, to learn from the plants, to be still, to come back, you know, to come home to ourselves. And for that we don't need so such huge, amounts of plants, you know. But it's, it's the doing. I think that.
[00:27:39] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And coming home is a good. Is a good word for that. It's like a sense of, of belonging.
[00:27:45] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:47] Unknown:
Part of the whole and.
[00:27:48] Unknown:
Yes, yeah, yeah. And then there's the whole issue of course with eating wild, you know, about. We get a more varied diet by eating wild foods in season and it's good for them, microbiome and all that. But Yeah.
[00:28:06] Unknown:
So I was wondering when it comes to the use of m. Medicinal plants, how is that legally worked out in Sweden, is it like a gray zone thing or is it like an officially registered thing, licensed thing or how is that?
[00:28:24] Unknown:
Yeah, it's a little complicated because like you can't make an adulting chair and sell it and say this is great, for cleaning the blood or strengthening the bones or you know, you have, you can't make any claims and I, you probably, I think it's a whole EU thing and in this day it's even worse. Yeah. So, but you can sell Coca Cola to children anyway. but I'm doing a lot of research right now because I'm writing a new book and there is quite a lot of research these days available. It's just that, I mean I can write about it in my book but I can't sell a product making claims, you know, So I, that's, I think that's a lot why I do what I do, I teach.
You know, I write books and I teach so that people can own this knowledge for themselves and use it to maintain their health. so. But I did just today find a report about how actually there is a lot of science done on Nettle and St. John's Wort and meadowsweet, and rhodiola that actually shows that they do work for you know like the Meadow Suite, that it is anti inflammatory and pain relieving and stuff. So it is coming because we need to have new alternatives to some medications because some of the medications are so addictive or they give so many side effect, you know. So. But again doing the research costs a lot of money. So there is But, but it's happening. And some of the research I do now is some cultivated plants like lavender and lemon balm and rosemary and basil. But it's happening. It is happening. And, and the difference with, with the wild, with the plant, at taking the, using the whole plant as medicine, for example nettle, is that if you take if you get a medicine from the pharmacy, it's, it's probably they've taken out, extracted one or two single active substances from the herb. Right. And so it's very, very high, very high concentration which is more harmful for the body.
So that can lead to side effects. And, but in the whole plant there are so many constituents that work together synergetically and plus they're much lower doses. So you have to really take a lot to get like valerian, you can take quite a lot without getting nauseated. So it is happening. And, and herbal medicine is still a big part in the world. I mean it's 80% of the world's population is still using herbs for medicine because they don't have anything else.
[00:31:33] Unknown:
Yeah. So how is that in Sweden? Like do, do medical doctors or do hospitals ever use herbs?
[00:31:41] Unknown:
No, but it's funny because I was I had a doctor's appointment recently at a do checkup and because I, I get really low, I have really. Winter is a really difficult time for me. And well, seasonal affectionate disorder. Ah, seasonal affective disorder. And so I take a lot of herbs in winter. and I was talking about this and he said because I don't, I don't want to take antidepressants because it's not like I get a heavy depression but just life runs out of me. I say and laugh. But anyway, and he said well we can actually prescribe St. John's wort.
And then he looked it up and then he said oh, and now we can't. But so it seems like St. John's word is on and off right now. but it has been. Which is, that was new to me because I Know, in Germany, doctors can prescribe herbs. But so it's, it's interesting. Yeah.
[00:32:40] Unknown:
Oh, it's like allowed and then forbidden.
[00:32:42] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:32:43] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:32:45] Unknown:
So. So I went and. Because my own St. John's Wort, I was out. So I went and bought some more St. John's Wort and I said my doctors approve. So. Yeah, but it's it's happening. There is a great, website called, Herbal Reality. And it's a Dr. Simon, Mills and some other very cool people who are working with it. And so they have monographs on each plant and they have a lot of research links for, you know, references to the research. so it's very, accessible. But you can also find the research there if you want to go really deep. So it's, I see it all over the place. It's, it's coming because it has to because we can't keep living the way we do. So.
[00:33:42] Unknown:
Yes, that's right.
[00:33:43] Unknown:
And the herbal medicine is cheap if you make your own stuff. You know, I have a small little garden here in the city. It's like 4 square meters. So I'm gonna have a herbal garden there with just calming herbs and it's not gonna cost me a lot to plant them. And then I have medicine for years to come.
[00:34:01] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:34:02] Unknown:
Or.
[00:34:03] Unknown:
Yeah, it's, it's. And I think it's good to, to grow your own or to gather your own. I once, a long time ago, I wrote an article about this for Plant Healer magazine. And because in Belgium the medical care is very. It's a very well established system. So, the government pays back most of the costs of the medicine and of the doctor's visits. however, it means that, Yes, I was, I was comparing this in a case where, I was having ah, Lyme disease. Not a chronicle. Chronicle type, but just the acute type. so, it was not that hard to really get rid of it. But I thought, hey, if, if I take these antibiotics, it cost me like only two or three euros.
[00:34:54] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:34:55] Unknown:
If I don't have my own herbs that I can gather, that I can harvest and I have to go to the health food store to get some tinctures, which will be like at least €15 for each tincture bottle. and I could see, when I was traveling in the US I could see this because their Social Security system is not as good as in Belgium, that people are more into herbal medicine because it is always the cheapest option. Pretty much. So, yeah. And it's, it's not that I'm against this, this, this Social Security system. Totally not. But I think it would be nice if like herbal things would also be included.
[00:35:37] Unknown:
Yeah, I, absolutely. And we have the same thing. We have a great system. You know, medicine doesn't, most medications don't cost much. but I think, and I'm definitely not against, you know, modern medicine because it's, it's not black and white. Of course, you know, it's. And I'm always concerned about saying that because there's. Some people seem to think that it's either or. But you know, if I break my leg, I'm not going to go to herbalist.
[00:36:04] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:36:04] Unknown:
You know, if I go to herbalist.
[00:36:05] Unknown:
If I need surgery, I'm going to be so glad with the anesthetics of modern medicine.
[00:36:10] Unknown:
Yeah. And somebody can do the surgery.
[00:36:14] Unknown:
It's, I, I really think it's a.
[00:36:16] Unknown:
Complimentary thing and for sure. And I think the herbs really come in, I use them, I never recommend them to treat diseases because, you know, then you have to really have the person there and that's too complicated. So I really believe in herbs for maintaining health and supporting your health and preventing getting sick in the first place. And then after you had your broken leg mended or after you had your heart attack, then you know, what herbs can support, support me to get better. And to restore. So but yeah, definitely a combination. And some medications are saving lives for sure. There's no doubt.
[00:36:56] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. Because I think like in the case of the antibiotics, and also I'm not against antibiotics, they have a time and a place. But I think the whole environmental cost is not reflected in the price that people pay for it. And whereas if you use herbs, well, the environmental impact like the, the water system is just pretty much non. Existent, so.
[00:37:21] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly. And imagine if. Because I, I think it's heartbreaking to see, you know, how many. I mean, I don't, I'm not perfect. Nobody's perfect. But you know, I, I cook my own food and I cook it from scratch and I try to eat a very diet and a little bit of everything, you know, and organic and all that. But there's so much we can do to support our immune system, for example, and our nervous. If that was more prescribed, you know, to exercise more, spend time in nature and eat healthy and don't smoke and don't drink too much alcohol and do drugs, you know, then we wouldn't need to spend so Much money on many medications. So there is, you know, lifestyle and also, herbs work best in combination with lifestyle. So we have to, we can help the herbs help us by, you know, do getting our daily sun. There's no sunlight today, but at least there is light. You know, getting my exercise, doing my yoga practice or meditation or whatever it is that, hits your heart.
by, you know, eating fairly well and just taking care of yourself. Because then you can't expect the herbs to work. If you drink 10 cups of coffee and you drink a pack, you smoke a pack of cigarettes every day, and think, oh, the St. John's version is not working. Oh, I wonder why.
[00:38:47] Unknown:
Well, this actually reminds me of another podcast, that I made. And, I was telling about, somebody who was asking me for herbs to protect him against lung cancer. And I was, I was a bit surprised and I said, oh, hey, where does this question come from? And he says, well, I'm a chain smoker, but I do not want to get lung cancer, so I'm looking at herbs that can protect me. And so of course I replied to him, nothing will have the same impact as quitting smoking.
[00:39:20] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:39:21] Unknown:
It's obvious.
[00:39:22] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:22] Unknown:
So, yeah, this, this is the same. You know, it's, it's like this whole picture of chronic stress.
[00:39:28] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:29] Unknown:
Movement.
[00:39:30] Unknown:
Yeah. Good food.
[00:39:31] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:39:32] Unknown:
And maybe stress reduction being top. The most important thing to deal with because that's what causes so much disease. Yes. yes.
[00:39:44] Unknown:
And I think it's really underrated as a factor on our health.
[00:39:48] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:48] Unknown:
Chronic stress.
[00:39:49] Unknown:
Yeah, I think so. And sleeplessness, but that comes as a result of the stress. So, yeah, it's complicated. But, I think also the, the herbs and foraging is a great tool for teaching these things because the most common questions I'm sure you get the same questions are worth herbs. Can I, what herb can I take against my, you know, for my headache or for stress or for this and that? And then you have the opportunity to say, well, you can take this herb, but you can also combine it with, try to get your eight hours of sleep. How can I do that? Well, then you can teach them how can they get their eight hours of sleep and how, you know, sleep hygiene and if you take a 40 minute walk every day, then the herbs will have a better chance of working. So it's a great tool for inspiring people to take care of themselves.
[00:40:44] Unknown:
So the next question is a bit personal to you. what is the one plant that you think should get more fame? A plant of which you think is totally underrated.
[00:40:55] Unknown:
Well, you know, Ah, gosh, it depends on season and day and weather. But I think overall, that nettle is such a great plant because it can take care of so much. Because mainly it's the. Probably that because it's so nutritious that it helps our health so much, you know, because many of our issues and imbalances can be because of lack of certain nutrients. You know, it's quite simple. So. And the nettle can clear our bodies from toxins which can support the joints. It will remineralize us. It supports our Our you know, skin, nails, hair. And And Yeah. And the nettle seed, it's also an.
An adaptogen and the, the nettle seeds are also very effective for that. And an adaptogen is a plant. You know that. But just so the listener doesn't feel left outside. It's a plant that can support your body, and. And your adrenals. and it's. It's a support against the effects of stress. so it can sort of make the symptoms a bit milder. And nettle is a great one. And nettle is a food. So you can eat it as a food. You can put it in your freezer, you can dry it. It's easy to make a nettle soup or a nettle pie or nettle risotto or what, nettle, what have you. And if you want to take a cure for six weeks or so, you can make a really, really strong infusion with a lot of nettle that sits overnight. you make an infusion with it overnight.
It's almost like a green soup when you drink it in the morning and then you drink that throughout the day, to remineralize and cleanse and support your liver and digestion. And it's easily accessible. most people can tolerate it. and some people who have problems with their kidneys should avoid it. and also, you know, pay attention to how much you can tolerate. But generally it's considered ah, a vegetable. So you can really eat it. And it grows, it's prolific. I mean it grows everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And vanilla seed is a great, it's actually specific for the for the adrenals. m. Yeah. So after, you know, like when you're burnt out, washed out, exhausted and your adrenals really need support because they've been just producing, you know, stress hormones for a long, long, long, long, long Long time use, nettle, seed. You can eat a teaspoon a day or, actually a tablespoon, or make a tincture.
[00:43:48] Unknown:
Yes, I agree. Staying nettles, we should all just be eating that a lot more. It's so easy to identify. It grows everywhere.
[00:43:58] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:43:59] Unknown:
it's, it's perennial. So if you have a garden. Yeah, I remember when I lived, in my previous house, we had a smaller garden and I just had 1 square meter of stinging nettles. And just the amount of harvest that I got out of this one square meter because you just cut it off and then a couple of weeks later you have the same amount again and you harvest. so, yeah, it's an amazing plant.
[00:44:25] Unknown:
Yeah, it is, it is so beautiful. And of course many people are scared because they're like, oh, but it burns. Yeah, but you can use gloves and a pair of scissors. So, plus, I think they're, they're good for, for keeping the mood up because they actually contain endorphins and, acetylcholine. What is that in English? my mind goes blank right now. But, but, but, yeah, I didn't.
[00:44:49] Unknown:
Know that about the endor.
[00:44:51] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. So it is a great plant. and tasty. and, and then, you know, I, I, right now, you know, it's. What is it? Mid February, I am craving nettles. I can't wait for the fresh nettles. By October, I am so fed up with nettles. And then I only use them like in infusions and not so much for food. And then winter goes, blah, blah, blah, and then comes February. I'm like, ah, I can't wait for new nettles.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
So, yeah, I love the seasonal thing about foraging.
[00:45:31] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:45:31] Unknown:
How you start to crave certain things or how you just know that, oh, I can only harvest it for this two weeks. Like a precious treasure that you're. Yeah. Yes. I love the whole seasoning and also.
[00:45:48] Unknown:
That way it's hard too because some, you know, some plants you shouldn't eat too much of, but eat them, you know, once, once in a time, once in a while. But then it is hard to overdose on, plants that are available for a short time and you eat them and then you go to the next, and then you go to the next and that's, you know, we don't eat strawberries all year. We eat them in summer, you know.
[00:46:08] Unknown:
As it should be.
[00:46:09] Unknown:
As it should be when they are at their best. So with the nettles, there's no risk of overdosing because unless you really eat them every single day of the year. But you don't eat anything every single day of the year.
[00:46:22] Unknown:
Yeah. And you can just add it to everything, like even tomato, ah, sauce. You can just add, you can add them to any kind of soup and dips and on spreads.
[00:46:33] Unknown:
Yeah, we use smoothie or pesto or anything. But, but do collect the seeds? it's a bit of work.
[00:46:42] Unknown:
I love the seeds.
[00:46:43] Unknown:
Yeah, they're amazing. And I put them in salt sometimes with toasted sesame and. Uh-huh. Nice.
[00:46:50] Unknown:
so speaking of seasons, last year I had a Dutch woman that lived in Sweden in my foraging classes and she made me very much aware. She said, well, the plant species that we have here in Sweden, she said, are like 80 to 80, 85% the same as in Belgium and in the Netherlands. However, she said a big factor is a time frame in which we can forage because obviously the winters are a lot harder and longer. So I was wondering how does that affect, affects your foraging? Like, do you harvest more in summer to dry or to.
[00:47:31] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. So, my, my, my busier now I'm not foraging so much for restaurants anymore, but I forage for other reasons. So, of course May from, from when the nettles come. Like April, maybe March. April, May, is super intensive. But then with that said, it depends. I don't try to for forage a million plants every year. You know, like I, I focus on, okay, this year I'm going to focus on sweet woodruff and nettles and that I know what, you know, what I use every year more or less. And then maybe I add something new. So I know this year I'm going to go for the nettles and the sweet woodruff and lindenflower.
I do a lot of roses and rose hips. So May, June is super intensive and that's when I do most of my workshops also. and I'm foraging for an event, in May and they need two kilos of nettles, that's no problem. But they also need one kilo kilo of mixed, you know, herbs for salad. One kilo is a lot, you know, it's. Yeah, so there's many occasions like that. So I try to focus on what I need for myself. I try to spread that out over the year. And then, so, yeah, so May, June is intensive. And then of course, you know, with St. John's wort and red clover, and yarrow Are plants that I pick. But I can pick them mostly all summer. Like June, July, and then comes August, September with rowan, berry and elderberry and rose hips. and and hawthorne, of course. I love hawthorne. Very good for the heart. Makes, me happy. Yeah. So, that gets pretty intense then.
And then in winter I can take a walk without looking at the ground all the time. which is a bit of a rest. Ah. But we, can forage here because now, for example, the rose hips that are left on the bushes, we can still forage all winter. Although they're a little wrinkled, but they taste. The flavor gets more intense. I make a soup. Yeah. And I can also forage still. You know, pine needles are great for making pine needle, infusion, which is very uplifting and warming, which I like to love.
[00:49:58] Unknown:
I love just the smell and stuff.
[00:50:01] Unknown:
It amazing. But if you drink it in the summer, it's like. It's a winter flavor, isn't it?
[00:50:07] Unknown:
Yeah, it's a winter thing.
[00:50:08] Unknown:
Yeah. So, no, but I think it's good to have, you know, to rest in the winter. And winter is for like this winter I'm writing, doing research, thinking, doing podcasts. and, and you know, I kind of like that rhythm. Because in spring and summer I always have that. You know, it's like a pull. I feel like I should, I have to go. You know, there's always something pulling me from.
[00:50:41] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:50:41] Unknown:
And it's longer.
[00:50:43] Unknown:
You have more energy.
[00:50:44] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:50:45] Unknown:
It's like the natural cycle of things. I, I would not want to be caught up in a job where I had to do like equal efforts in the winter, in the summer, because it doesn't feel natural to me.
[00:50:58] Unknown:
No.
[00:50:59] Unknown:
Yeah. So I'm really happy with this seasonal effect of.
[00:51:03] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's also another beautiful thing about learning to forage is that you do get that, natural rhythm with nature. Because even if I go out now, I still connect. You know, I look for the buds and something sticking up there or what's under the snow there. But yeah, to have that break now it's time for hibernation still.
[00:51:27] Unknown:
And I love how you say that you focus on certain plants and I think that's also part of being more skilled and experienced forager. Like, you know, we had a. Not last summer, but the few summers before that it was very dry and we hardly had any elderberries. So I, I just, just didn't gather the elderberries. I thought the birds need them more than we do. last year we Had a really cold spring, so I didn't. I didn't harvest any flowers of the early spring flowers because I thought, you know, the insects will really be starving and they really need them. So these are kind of the. Yeah. The things that you develop when you.
[00:52:11] Unknown:
For sure.
[00:52:12] Unknown:
Experience.
[00:52:12] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's exactly how we need to harvest, sustainably. And I think that's why I think nature is such a foraging and such a great way to learn how to use nature's, resources. I don't like the word resources, because they are there for their own sake. But anyway, in a balanced way, because when you go out and forage, you see immediately the effect of what you've done. If you take all the plants in one batch, they will be gone.
[00:52:44] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:52:45] Unknown:
You know, so you're exactly right. We need to be mindful. If there's no rowan berry, we don't go for the rowan berry. We take them for next year. You know, I'm just curious.
[00:52:57] Unknown:
What. What do you use rowan berries for or how.
[00:53:01] Unknown:
Oh, I love. I love rowan berry, and I think.
[00:53:03] Unknown:
That'S what I use them for. My voice. For the throat.
[00:53:06] Unknown:
Oh, really?
[00:53:07] Unknown:
Yeah, for the throat. Using them.
[00:53:13] Unknown:
Yeah. They're another underestimated flavor. I. I love that bitter, sour flavor. and I can eat them raw and make people go, ew. but that's another thing that the plants can teach us is different flavors. But, Yeah, so what I like to do, my favorite thing, I think, is to. To, I put them in the freezer overnight and then thaw them and mix them with just a little bit of honey, like, only enough to make the berries, like, a little sticky. And then add a pinch of salt. And I put it in a clean jar and put it in the fridge for about a week. And then the honey and the salt will pull out the liquids from the rowan berries, and that becomes like a little, compote or something. And you can eat that with anything.
[00:54:02] Unknown:
All right.
[00:54:03] Unknown:
Really delicious, because then you have added the sweetness so they. They get a little more palatable. And, I've also made shrub or oxymel, you know, with honey and honey and apple cider vinegar. And I let that sit for a really long time, like months. And I get this bright red, liquid, and it tastes like Campari.
[00:54:29] Unknown:
Oh, really?
[00:54:31] Unknown:
I know. So. And then I take a little bit with. With carbonated water, and it's like a cocktail. Wow. But it's not alcoholic. Yeah.
[00:54:41] Unknown:
Well, this is. This is something I'VE always heard about rowan berries, that if you make something with it like. Like a rowan berry jelly. Yeah. And you let it stand for months or even for years, that it just changes in flavor, becomes more interesting and more. Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:58] Unknown:
It's super interesting flavor. And I've made tonic from it. I had china bark and cooked, it with some other spices. I can't remember which exactly. and made it a tonic to use for. I was doing this tonic project for a company that we're developing wild tonics. And, Yeah, that was delicious. And then you can use it for cocktails. You can use your shrub for cocktails as well. I'm not a big fan of cocktails, but for those who are, Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you can use, So then you only use the liquid, but you can save the berries and use them like, in cakes.
Imagine making a really dark, gooey chocolate cake, and then you add some rowan berry. That makes a really interesting combo. Coke, chocolate, and rowan. It's nice. Yeah. I've dried them, to use in, like, granolas or in cookies or bread else have I done. I don't make jellies because I'm not a big, big jelly eater. But you can make jams and, you know, stuff like that. But I love the oxymo and the. The honey, thing.
[00:56:18] Unknown:
All right.
[00:56:18] Unknown:
Thank you for.
[00:56:19] Unknown:
For sharing that.
[00:56:20] Unknown:
You're welcome.
[00:56:21] Unknown:
You. You mentioned previously the. The rosehip soup. That's really typically Swedish.
[00:56:27] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:56:28] Unknown:
And you say soup, but it's really like more of a sweet thing.
[00:56:31] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, when I was a kid, we would have very common thing, rosehip soup, or cream of rosehip. But it was made from a powder that came out of a paper bag, and it was very sweet, and we ate it with little m. Almond cookies. So, and cream or ice cream. Very yummy. Very sweet. Now, if you make the real thing, you take the rose hips, and remove the little rest leftover from the flour, and, let them simmer in water for maybe 15, 20 minutes. And then with the seeds and everything, and then you take a blender and blend it to a soup, and then it becomes really gooey because all the seeds are in there.
And you go, oh, I can't eat this because the seeds are like gravel. You know, they're really hard. plus they have little hairs on them, which are itchy in the throat.
[00:57:27] Unknown:
Oh, it's terrible.
[00:57:28] Unknown:
I know. Oh, and so then you take, a Sieve and put it over a bowl. And then you take a spoonful at a time of the sort of roasted porridge and put it in the sieve and strain it. I take a spoon and sort of go push, push, push. And, So that the. The liquid or the. The cream of rosehip comes through the seam into the bowl, and then you can throw away the seeds on the compost. and then I put that in the freezer, because then when I use it, I can decide how to flavor it. Do I want to use it for dessert? I can sweeten, it.
[00:58:08] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:58:09] Unknown:
or I can use, it in a dressing, you know, with oil and vinegar, or a marinade. so it's. And it's. It's super delicious. And it's, of course, full of antioxidants and vitamin C. And the mix shouldn't boil. It should just simmer, because otherwise you destroy the antioxidants. But, yeah, so that's really easy. and, yeah, some people. I. And I've done this once, but it's so much work. The seeds are really. They have a really precious oil in them, and they're rich, really rich in antioxidants. You know, you can buy rose oil. I know.
[00:58:51] Unknown:
Kitchen supply.
[00:58:52] Unknown:
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, you can't do that. But with the seeds, after I bo. After I had them simmer and. And made the rosehip cream, I once. I dried them on very low temperature, in the oven, and then they become a little crunchy, and then I mix them in a blender. Uh-huh. To a powder. But, you know, it's so much work. You know, it's. Yeah, you can do that. But, you know, I still. Yeah.
[00:59:21] Unknown:
I've cooked up rose hips before and then just strained them, like you mentioned.
[00:59:25] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:59:26] Unknown:
And I love to just put a little bit of salt in there and then, just use it as a replacement for tomato. Like, on a whole.
[00:59:34] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly. Like ketchup.
[00:59:38] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:59:38] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:40] Unknown:
With some spices. Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:42] Unknown:
Because it's not so sweet. It's quite. It's right.
[00:59:46] Unknown:
You know, like, tomato also has this little bit acidic thing, but also a sweet thing, especially if you boil it for a longer time.
[00:59:55] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:59:55] Unknown:
Continue with a pasta sauce. So. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting flavor.
[00:59:59] Unknown:
Roasted pizza. That's nice. Oh, I had, I've had rose. I've had, what was the other berry we talked about? the row and berry, the rowan berry. I had those on pizza with goat cheese and nettles. That's really yummy as well. Speak your pizza. Yeah, yeah. Ah, yeah. So. And the rose hips, of course it's, you can use them just as an infusion. You don't have to make a soup. but, but it is delicious and you can make ice cream from it and. Yeah, so that's yummy. Wow. So. And I think that, yeah, no, I'm sorry. But I think this is also part of the benefits is that first it makes you really creative inventing recipes and it's a sense of satisfaction, you know, which I think is good for health because nowadays we can buy anything. We don't even have to cook our food anymore. We don't have to sew our clothes, we don't have to build our furniture.
and when we do make something with our hands, you know, I'm a knitter. I used to knit since I was a child. And you know that satisfaction when you put on your own scarf that you made or you built the chair or whatever, or bring home food from nature and cook it, there is a satisfaction in that. I did this myself. That's very self empowering and I think that is super important today when we basically all we have to do is push buttons all day.
[01:01:31] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's another thing as well that, and this is what I, what I like some of my friends are into Ayurvedic medicine. Medicine or like traditional Chinese medicine. And I think if you cook for yourself, especially with wild plants, you also more have attention to what is it that my body needs to take. Like what is the weather? Like, what is, what am I feeling like today? Like oh, maybe I have a bit of a runny nose or you know, maybe I feel a little bit tired and then just adjusts what you are cooking for yourself or for your family. And I think in the Western world this, this is a factor that has almost disappeared.
[01:02:20] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah it is. And that's why I think Ayurveda is, is such a great. I'm, I'm not, I mean I, I'm a little bit familiar with tcm but not deep. but I've exposed myself more to Ayurveda and eating foods, local foods in season is very much a part of Ayurveda. so it's, it's. And also of course learning the dynamics with cooling and heating and drying and drying, wet and moisturizing and all that that makes, it adds a whole dimension, M hm. To herbalism, of course. Yeah, yeah.
[01:02:58] Unknown:
And We've been talking a lot about.
[01:03:00] Unknown:
I know.
[01:03:01] Unknown:
And there is for me, I don't know. I've never been to Sweden, but I come. There is a Swedish thing with berries.
[01:03:08] Unknown:
Oh yes.
[01:03:10] Unknown:
so you have like wild strawberries, and wild blueberries which we also have in Belgium. But then you also have like Lincoln.
[01:03:21] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Cranberries. Oh my gosh. You don't have them in Belgium. Oh my goodness. well, you know that, that's like foraging for. For berries and mushroom is a very Swedish thing. It's what we do. and that's good. That's the way many people get their nature connection. so the lingonberries are quite m. A bit, I want to say accurate, a bit little sour. so they're often made into jam to be more pal. It's not something we really eat raw. Like, like blueberries you can just put in your mouth right away by the mouthful. You know, I put more in my mouth than in my bucket when I go out and pick.
[01:04:10] Unknown:
Same here.
[01:04:11] Unknown:
I know it's chocolates, but and that's when they test taste best. So you know, the lingonberries are better cooked and delicious. You know, make a lingonberry pie with fudge or using them with food like a jam is a very common thing. Meatballs with lingonberry jam and potato. And potato mashed potatoes is like. That's Swedish traditional farmer's food, you know. which is a very strange thing to many people is eating something sweet with, you know, salty food.
[01:04:48] Unknown:
Yeah, the same with applesauce.
[01:04:51] Unknown:
Ah, of course. Yeah. So m. and also you have a bit of the same climate and maybe history with like farmers. You know, you took what you had in season. You had. Then you had the applesauce and then you had the pork and or whatever, you know. so the lingonberries, my grandfather would always eat his overnight oats, with ah, berries. Which means that you take them raw and mix them with a little bit of sugar as you stir them with sugar. So that's because they, they contain a natural preservative. So you can actually preserve lingonberries in a jar with water and it'll keep a really long time in the fridge. So the, the stirred the, the lingonberries that are stirred with sugar raw, they will keep really well and then you get a really even fresher taste of the, of the lingonberries.
So that was his like milk overnight oats and raw lingonberries for sugar breakfast. And what were the Other ones. Oh, my gosh. Cloud. To me, cloudberries is a luxury because I live in Stockholm, which is far from the north, But I was up once there going, cloudberry picking with a friend. and I thought I was in heaven, because I'd never seen them real before. This is maybe 10 years ago. And, I mean, I had seen them, like, on a plate or in a shop, but never on the ground. I'd never picked them. And it's just one berry on each little plant, whereas in, you know, blueberries, kind of 50 blueberries on one plant. But here's one, one, one, one, one. And you go. And the ground is quite wet where they grow. And, on a good day, where there's a lot of cloudberries, it's like a yellow field of. And you have. The air up there in the mountains is so wonderful. So to me, that's really something extraordinary. And then to eat them with just cream, plain, natural, like that is amazing.
and you can actually eat them with, You can, like with the lingam berries, you know, with a little bit of sugar. And you stir them and eat them with. With cream. And that's a very common dessert up there.
[01:07:19] Unknown:
I love berries.
[01:07:21] Unknown:
I know. They're amazing. And, you know, they make you feel so rich in August. You know, harvest time is such a. It's such a. Ah. It's such an abundant time. Because where I live, where I have my country house, there's a far. Some friends have a farm, and they grow a lot of vegetables. So, you know, when they harvest, there's the carrots and pumpkins and tomatoes and lettuce and squash and everything. And in the forest, there's the roseberries and the lingonberries and the rowan berries, and it's like. It's such a time of abundance. Uh-huh. which is really gratifying.
[01:07:55] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm experiencing this in my garden and the hedgerows here, I think, oh, there's. There's not enough time to, pick it all and to, you know, you just have to make choices sometimes.
[01:08:08] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's something I've learned over the years, is to make those choices. I don't need to make 25 different tinctures. You know, I've learned which ones more or less I need over the year. same with her, you know, so, yeah, in the beginning, you know, I would make 30 different oils and lots of tinctures because it was so much fun. And pills and honeys and oxmose and this and that, But then you have to use them and you can't pick more than you're actually going to use up.
[01:08:38] Unknown:
Exactly.
[01:08:39] Unknown:
But you can put in the freezer. So.
[01:08:41] Unknown:
Yeah, the freezer is really good for. Especially for berries, because they cook so well in the freezer.
[01:08:46] Unknown:
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And the berries are great for shrubs too, or smells. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
[01:08:53] Unknown:
Yeah, that's right. So is there a thing you think the government could do to, help restore this connection between people and plants?
[01:09:06] Unknown:
Schools start with the kids. Absolutely. I, think it should be, part of the kids education. They spend so much time in front of their screens, but they should spend more time in the forest or just growing carrots or something and learn about plants for sure. And I've been working a little bit with children and foraging and teaching them very common, easy to identify plants. They learn so fast. It's amazing. And then the kids love to teach their parents.
[01:09:40] Unknown:
Exactly.
[01:09:40] Unknown:
You know.
[01:09:41] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:09:42] Unknown:
So that's a beautiful thing. And if you. Exactly. So if you have that knowledge from childhood where you feel safe in nature, which I am blessed to have. Not everybody feels safe in nature. so that's also a learning process. So that's one thing. And I also think that, if like forest therapy or spending time in nature with, a therapist, you know, or on your own could be something that people who are burnt out, or recovering from sickness, if that could be part of their. If they could get a recipe. You know, you don't need a recipe to go out in the forest, but sometimes you just need for an authority to tell you, okay, or you need to go with a therapist, you know, first. Therapy is great.
It's great medicine. It's just used in Japan a lot and in other parts of the world, south, in, South Korea, Thailand. Yeah. So using, nature as a recipe for, recovering and treating very, you know, depression. And I think that would be an amazing thing because once you, you once that connection clicks, it never goes away.
[01:10:58] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:10:59] Unknown:
You know?
[01:10:59] Unknown:
Yes. That's also what I experienced myself. If I look back on my childhood, I was like my childhood and then my teenage years. I was actually a really lonely child and I discovered a plants. And I never felt alone.
[01:11:15] Unknown:
Exactly.
[01:11:15] Unknown:
I just. Yeah, it clicked. It's exactly the way you describe it. And it never goes away. It's like something that is installed inside of me, in my essence, and it's part of who I am and it will never, ever go away.
[01:11:30] Unknown:
No. And like you said, you, you hit it Right there about not feeling alone. Because that a lot of people suffer from that today. From feeling disconnected and feeling. And I mean myself. I live on my own, I work on my own. I spend a lot of time by the computer, by my kitchen table. And sometimes I don't meet. I mean, I meet people every day because I have neighbors. But, I spend a lot of time on my own. And sometimes, yeah, that can get very lonely. But when I do go out in the forest, it somehow just goes away. If nothing else and at least temporarily. And. And I think that's so. So it's, it's great medicine. It really is.
[01:12:11] Unknown:
Yeah. More people should experience it.
[01:12:14] Unknown:
Yeah. And once they start going out in the forest, maybe they start meeting people they can go out in the forest with and they won't be so lonely anymore. Yeah.
[01:12:24] Unknown:
So, one question that I asked to all of my interviewees. So as a herbalist in Sweden, are you ever called a witch? And I'm asking, this because people keep telling me, hey, Leafa, you're so lucky to live in this day and age because you would have been burned alive, previous times. Is it the same in Sweden?
[01:12:45] Unknown:
Yeah. And they say, oh, you're a witch. But I'm not a witch. I have great respect for people who call themselves witches because they have a certain knowledge that they're interested in. that hasn't appealed to me, which is very intricate and deep and, and I'm sure important in many ways. but that's not, that hasn't been my path. I'm not a witch. I use herbs for maintaining health and as you know, as part of a, ah, sustainable lifestyle. and yeah, but, but it's true that, that women and men with knowledge on how to use plants, they were burned on the stakes and, and that could have happened to us.
Absolutely. Because they weren't necessarily practicing Wicca practices. They were just healers, you know, doing what you and I do, teaching people how to use plants to stay healthy. but no, I'm not a witch. And sometimes it can bother me that Because that's a whole different profession and path. but I guess because it's so new to people and like plant m. Blindness, it's like, oh, you work with plant, you're rich.
[01:14:02] Unknown:
Yeah, it's like they have to categorize.
[01:14:05] Unknown:
Exactly. And I don't want to be categorized. Sometimes I work with plants, sometimes I'm a writer, sometimes I'm just hanging out with my friends. I'm just me I'm a herbal and I'm a, nature, ah, forest therapy guide. But I do a lot of things. so. But yeah, you're right. It's like people need that categorization and distancing perhaps because it seems so strange and it seems like the Wicca, whole thing is growing. And I see more and more people calling themselves witches, on Instagram. And I'm sure that has healing benefits for them and that's great, but it's not what I do.
Yeah.
[01:14:49] Unknown:
So listen, if people want to find more info about you, about your work with plants, where can they get more info? Like a website, Social media accounts?
[01:14:59] Unknown:
Yeah, I'm on Instagram and you can find me at Life by Listen. And I'm Sometimes I post a lot and sometimes I post not so much. I try to be fairly regular. and then I have a website called lifebylison.com where I post. You can read about my books. They're in Swedish, some of them have been translated but not to Dutch, but to Polish, and Norwegian and other languages. But yeah. And, and also about my, my workshops which I do, here in Sweden. So. Right. This year I'm focusing a lot on a new book which will be. I will announce more about later in the year, which is very fun.
Yeah. So, yeah, so that's, that's where you can find me. And if you're in Sweden, stop by and say hello. Come to my workshops at. Or something.
[01:15:58] Unknown:
All right.
[01:15:59] Unknown:
All, right.
[01:15:59] Unknown:
So thank you. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
[01:16:05] Unknown:
and thank you for reaching out. This is fun. Foragers unite.
[01:16:10] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:16:11] Unknown:
Yeah. Stay wild. Thank you so much.
[01:16:16] Unknown:
You're very welcome. You're very welcome.
[01:16:18] Unknown:
Thank you.
[01:16:19] Unknown:
And to you, Wildy, that has been listening, thank you for being here. I hope to see you back with our next episode. And in the meantime, keep nourishing your wild soul and keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye.
[01:16:33] Unknown:
Word.
[01:16:42] Unknown:
A warm thank you for listening. Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now just go outside and follow your wild heart.
Hi, Wildling. Hey. I'm still looking for some more interesting guests on, European herbalism and foraging. So if you know anybody that would want to be a guest in my podcast series, please feel free to reach out and contact me through social media Wildplant Forager or through my website, wildplantforager.com. thank you so much. Much. Welcome to Wild the podcast for Wildlings. Just like you wildlings who want to transform the prevalent plant blindness to collective plant wisdom. my name is Lieve Galle. I've been working as a herbalist and wild plant forager in Belgium since 2, 2002. In those years I've seen a lot of changes. Working with plants has become more popular. But I've also seen time is running out for our planet.
As foragers and herbalists in Europe, sometimes we're dealing with different plant species and different cultural approaches towards plants. In some countries, working with plants is licensed, and in others it's almost illegal. I believe that together we can learn from one another and be stronger. There is nothing more empowering than connecting wild souls. Together we can have a greater impact on restoring the ancient link between people and, and plants. And that's why for this podcast series, I'm talking to fellow herbalists and foragers in Europe. So if you're ready to find out what you've never been told, but what your soul already knows, welcome to.
Wow. Welcome wildly to this new episode of the Wildie podcast for Wildlings. Working with plants just like you. And today I have a guest from Sweden, Lisen Sundkren. Am I pronouncing that right?
[00:02:27] Unknown:
You are pronouncing that very well, thank you.
[00:02:31] Unknown:
how did your journey with plants get started? Was it something that was already present in your childhood or has it developed later on in life? Tell us.
[00:02:40] Unknown:
It's a combination. I grew up, you know, ah, outside of Stockholm in a house with a garden. So it was easily, easily accessible for me to go out and forage for nettles and, and dandelions and, you know, all those fairly, common plants. And also my grandfather was very botanically interested and he taught me the botanical names of people plants. He was like, that's very important to know, you know, is Bellis perennis and mirisodoratum. And you know, so, so that's always been with me in a very natural way. You know, we used to go foraging for, for, for blueberries and, and wild strawberries and things when I was a child. So, it's, it's always been a part of my. It's in my DNA. So, later on, the herbs really took me, into their world, when I was. I mean, I've always been interested in. In, you know, eating healthy foods and curious about what makes me feel good, you know. So I was living in London and Paris and New York as young, in big cities, you know, super active lives, life and very ambitious. And I was living in New York for many years where I got interested in yoga and health and herbs for a little bit. But then I was burnt out and I went back to Sweden. And the only thing I wanted to do, the only thing that I could sort of visualize or just do because I was just, you know, everything was very dark. I would just go out in the. Into the forest every single day. And eventually I started getting curious about the plants around me. And, after that I, did a, one year herbalist training where the wild plants were a big part of it. And, so it just grew from there. And then I started working at a place called Rosendalsgarden in Stockholm, which is a biodynamic farm. And the herbs, you know, wild as well as cultivated plants. I just, you know, it was just like I couldn't see anything else. I was completely drawn in, by their scents and tastes and beings, you know.
So, eventually, to make a very long story short, I changed my path from, acting to becoming a herbalist. And that was in 2000.
[00:05:09] Unknown:
So I think it's totally fascinating that your grandfather actually taught you the Latin names, the botanical names.
[00:05:16] Unknown:
Yeah. But, you know, I don't know how it was in Belgium, but in Sweden, in the olden days, the kids in school had to learn. They had to go. They had to make a herbarium. Herbarium. so they would go out and gather, specific species of plants and press them and, you know, put them on a. Glue them onto a piece of paper and write the let. They had to learn the botanical names. They had to write where it was found and what date. And, So that had been a part of his childhood. And then he, you know, carried that with him all his life.
[00:05:53] Unknown:
And does it still happen in schools?
[00:05:56] Unknown:
No, but I think it should.
[00:05:59] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty similar in Belgium here. The older people. I still have some herbarium of older people that gifted them to me, and I think it's so precious. but, yeah, I don't know why this suddenly stopped because to me it's learning an essential skill. About the world that you're living in.
[00:06:23] Unknown:
Exactly. And that we are part of.
[00:06:25] Unknown:
Yes. And this is a thing that hasn't changed. No, the plants are still the same. And, So I don't know why they stopped doing this.
[00:06:34] Unknown:
No, I think it would be great if they picked it up again because it. It does remind us of our symbiosis, you know, without. We are part of nature. So, we are nature. And if we. Many people today forget that. So they think that, well, we can just take what we want from nature and live in our cities, far from the wild and, still have food and clothes and. But we won't, you know, we need the plants for our survival and because it makes us feel good to hang out with the plants.
[00:07:08] Unknown:
Absolutely.
[00:07:09] Unknown:
You know, it's good for your health and for your mental health and especially for kids today that are so exposed to social media and frames and, you know, overwhelmed, really.
[00:07:21] Unknown:
Yes. they don't have any rest and peace and quiet in their brains anymore. And I think it's urgently needed that they just spend much more time in nature.
[00:07:31] Unknown:
Yeah. Yes, for sure.
[00:07:33] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:07:34] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:07:34] Unknown:
So is working with plants as a herbalist and a forager, is it like a common thing in Sweden, Something that is still done traditionally, or is it more of a rare thing?
[00:07:46] Unknown:
It's, you know, when I started, doing workshops and things, 24 years ago, it was not common. But, you know, there was. It was an older generation that, held the knowledge because when they were young in the 70s, you know, there was the green wave. So then it was cool to grow herbs and forage and eating dandelions and nettles and all that. And, then it was the generation before that, my grandmother, who was born in 1919, I think she lives through two wars, one war, and learn to grow vegetables and. And, tend sheep and also use wild vegetables, you know, because it's. It's what they had.
So, when I started, no, it wasn't very common at all. And a few. I. I remember my first wild walk that I was teaching. I think it was pouring rain, and I think three people came. And I'm so, I'm so grateful to those three or five. I can't remember. we were walking around with our umbrellas and I was talking about, you know, gout weed and nettles and yarrow and all those things. Very enthusiastic. And, since then, I've done hundreds and hundreds of wild walks because I've noticed the growth over the years. And Something happened about 15 years ago when the new Nordic Kitchen was launched, which was a big thing. and then the chefs. Because prior to that, like in the 90s, I remember crossover Kitchen, you know, when it was, trendy to have the whole world gathered on a plate, you know, eating croc, crocodile from Australia and mango from Thailand. You know, everything. The whole world should be on the plate.
Plate. Today, that seems just outrageous, right? So within the new Nordic Kitchen, chefs wanted to use what was grown locally. And ideally, they want to, you know, take their bike to the nearest farmer and dig up their own carrots and, you know, bike back to the restaurant. And. But, And so they also open their eyes to the wild food because, brings. I mean, chefs think about flavor foremost. You know me, I can be like, oh, it's nutrition, but. But it's like, flavor. So, the. The wild foods have some. Some of the plants have really exceptional flavors that are a good complement to the cultivated vegetables. So I started foraging with. For restaurants and teaching chefs, you know, how to, you know, identify plants and how to use stuff like that.
So, when that sort of. That. That era opened up a whole new world because people, you know, they go to restaurants and found, yarrow leaf on their plate. They'd be like, oh, this is very cool. And, so then I. There was a whole new interest, and I started writing books about the wild plant. I wrote three books about wild plants. And, the interest just grew and grew and grew. And during the pandemic, people couldn't hang, out indoors, right? So they had to, spend time together outdoors and looking for things to do. So me, as a forager and as a nature and forest therapy guide, I was super busy during the pandemic. So the interest really grew because people were spending so much time outdoors and, want, to. Just something to do.
So, And I think there's many reasons why the interest is growing. It's. It's, because, some. Some people are preppers. You know, they want to be prepared, you know, for the worst. Great. others are more sort, of lifestyle oriented. It's like, oh, I like to hike or hunt or whatever it is they do, and then they want to be able to pick their food. others have more sort of health, you know, approach and are looking for the nutrition and the variety, eating a more varied diet. So, and others are more into sustainability. So it's. It's beautiful because it doesn't really matter what door you choose to go into, as long as you find it leads to nature, Right?
[00:12:13] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:12:14] Unknown:
Home. Yes.
[00:12:15] Unknown:
Yeah. From what I hear, it's pretty similar in Belgium also. and I have to say I love to have chefs on my foraging courses. Because you're right, they think in flavors, and it's so interesting and so enriching to, you know, you let them taste something and they just start, oh, I could combine it with this or with that and just make combination that I would have never thought of. So it's always very inspiring.
[00:12:42] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so funny. I don't do it so much anymore. But. But while I was foraging for restaurants, you know, I would come with my bags through the kitchen door and leaving my bags there, and I felt like a bag lady and. And you know, with soil on my hands, of course I washed them in the kitchen. But, then I would go and eat there and. Just to see what they had created. Yeah, just to see.
[00:13:08] Unknown:
It's amazing.
[00:13:09] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:11] Unknown:
So is there in Sweden a difference in, like, basic botanical skills in more remote areas, you think, than, in cities or.
[00:13:23] Unknown:
I think now it's getting better, but I think the skills have been pretty poor, actually. And I think it's because we don't have that natural interaction with nature. now because the interest is growing. You know, people who have been foraging for a month and just learning are like, oh, I'm a forager, but I remember there was a chef, who once was like, oh, I found this great plant. It tastes like oyster. I'm going to use it in an oyster dish. And it was, it in English with sipa. It's part of the ranunculus family. So it was a toxic plant. So, you know, it's like m.
You really have to know what you're doing if you're going to serve this at your restaurant. but in general, yeah, I find it's quite mixed. But I always try to start from, from the very beginning at my walks because some people haven't, you know, there's, you know, of the concept plant blindness. Yeah. And I find that's extremely common. And so I always encourage people to start with the plants that they do know. Like, most people will know dandelion. Yeah, yeah, most people will know more.
[00:14:37] Unknown:
With that than, they would have ever imagined.
[00:14:40] Unknown:
Exactly. So why try to learn 30 plants in one go? Start with one or two plants that are easily available to you and then go from there. Because there's also, there's the plant blindness. That's an issue. And also learning, you know, becoming intimate with a plant and learning what, what time of the year is which part best. Like if you take dandelion, for example. Yeah. You want to take leaves, but not in July. Right. I mean, you can, you can, but. But they taste. If you're a beginner, take them in spring.
[00:15:15] Unknown:
Yes. When they're less bitter.
[00:15:17] Unknown:
Yes, exactly. And then the root is, you know, before and after bloom. And the bud, when it's a bud, you know, so you have to, So I always encourage people to go slowly because, the knowledge is not, it's not so deep.
[00:15:31] Unknown:
Yeah. I remember people asking me about, about flowers and seeds, on plants and.
[00:15:39] Unknown:
They say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[00:15:41] Unknown:
Leave. Are you telling me that in order to have a seed, you have to have a flower first? Like, oh, that is the order in which it always happens. And I thought, whoa, this is like next level plant blindness. Really.
[00:15:55] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly.
[00:15:57] Unknown:
It's kind of sad, really. It's really sad.
[00:16:01] Unknown:
It's horrendous.
[00:16:02] Unknown:
Nature.
[00:16:03] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's really why I do what I do. You know, I think it's great that and you know, to be able to say it's great to share recipes and stuff, but for me it's more about the experience of going out in nature and being in search of plants. Because that's when you, you have to slow down.
[00:16:24] Unknown:
Right.
[00:16:24] Unknown:
You can't be in a hurry and you can't be in a hurry when you pick the plants because you have to, you know, be conscious of how you do it and how much can you take. And and suddenly you hear the birds and you may be feeling the sunshine on your back and suddenly you're breathing a little deeper to. And, and suddenly you're like seeing new things with this little plant, you know, like, wow, I never saw that. Nettles, the hairs are actually all going in the same direction, you know, and to me, that's the adventure. Yeah.
[00:17:00] Unknown:
It's about being in the here and now, where in a lot of other aspects in our life, we're just constantly distracted by social media and other things that just make us to another place or to another time instead of being in the here and now, which is really all there really is.
[00:17:19] Unknown:
And, focus on one thing.
[00:17:21] Unknown:
Right, exactly.
[00:17:23] Unknown:
Without being interrupted and tempted to go on Instagram or. And also, I mean, herbs are slow medicine. You know, as a herbalist, I also use herbs for medicine and, and most of them, I mean, some can have an immediate effect, like if you need something for sleep, yeah. You can take valerian or something and that's great. But most of them work over time, you know, so they're really teaching us. We have to get to know them. They work over time. Not all plants are right for us. Like some do really well on lemon balm for sleep, others do really well on, on yeah, valerian or passion flower.
And you have to sort of learn what dosage is right for you. and we're not used to that.
[00:18:15] Unknown:
Instant gratification that we have all the time.
[00:18:18] Unknown:
Oh yes.
[00:18:19] Unknown:
Patience and about slowing down and.
[00:18:21] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:18:22] Unknown:
This is medicine in itself already.
[00:18:24] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's why when people ask. So okay, so what's healthy about this plants and, and what, what are the active ingredients or what nutrition is in there? I'm like. But it's so much more Than just the active ingredients or the minerals or even though they are important. But yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
[00:18:45] Unknown:
Yeah. So for me as a Belgian herbalist and forager, I can only dream of the amount of natural spaces that you still have in Sweden compared to Belgium.
[00:18:57] Unknown:
Oh my goodness, yes.
[00:19:01] Unknown:
however, m. I think most people, and it's probably similar in Sweden, most people still live in cities, not in the ah, countryside. So are there enough green areas, for people in more urban spaces? And are there like urban forager foraging opportunities or so now.
[00:19:22] Unknown:
And now there's more herbalists and foragers around. So I think we have, we do have. Sweden is beautiful that way. That we do have a lot of green space. And I live in Stockholm. I also have a cottage, in Serumland. And so I have a lot of opportunity, to forage because here where I live in the city, I live near a big huge park where I can go out and forage. And we have what's called alemanzretan. I don't. You don't have that in about that?
[00:19:53] Unknown:
Because I've heard that on some conditions you can even forge on other people's property. Yeah. Like. Is that a thing?
[00:20:02] Unknown:
I know.
[00:20:02] Unknown:
Okay, tell me all about it.
[00:20:04] Unknown:
Yeah. So alamansreten is a beautiful things. It means in English it's all, man's right to access. So it means that we are allowed to gather, plants, leaves, and flowers, but not. And mushrooms and berries, but not roots or branches. So we are allowed to do that, even on private property, which I don't recommend people to do when I teach because I think it's. I wouldn't want anybody to go into my garden and pick my dandelion. So I always say ask kindly, you know, ask politely. Probably nobody's going to say no if you ask, can I have your dandelion roots? You know, but, but yeah. So the law is, I mean there is a lot of private forest where I have my country house and yes, I am allowed to go there and forage for sure. And I do.
But with that said and Alamasiratan, it's not a law but it's just something given to us for us to be responsible for. So it also says we should not destroy or bother. Like we shouldn't bother animals for example. and we shouldn't. If you find a whole patch of, I don't know, sweet woodruff, or wild garlic, don't take the whole batch because the plant then you are spoiling the plants ability to grow back, you know. So I always say don't take more than 10%. I know that's very little. Some M. People say 20, some people say 25. I think better to take less.
[00:22:05] Unknown:
I'm in team 10% as well. Yes.
[00:22:07] Unknown:
Yeah. And leave the rest to. For the plant so it can keep living and and regenerate. And there are other animals that are dependent on these plants and there are insects that are dependent on these plants. We can go to a shop and buy food, they can't. So. And we need for those insects and animals to live so that we can live healthy lives on the planet. So you know, it's all interconnected and I also think it's a great idea to cultivate if you have the opportunity, if you have a piece of land, grow some of those wild plants because it's not going to be sustainable that if you know, the more foragers around there's going to be it's not going to be sustainable for all of us to just go out and forage. So I think if you have a piece of land, grow your own nettles.
[00:23:02] Unknown:
Yes. I advise, I give the same advice to people. And also it's increasing the biodiversity in people. So it's a win, win sit. And you don't have to go a very far distance just to pick your wild vegetables. So it's.
[00:23:17] Unknown:
Yes, it's like a garden, kitchen garden. Yeah. So yeah, keep a wild corner in your garden and you know, some piles of wood for the insects.
[00:23:28] Unknown:
And what I love about the legal frame, it's that like it's a right. But it's also a duty. Yes, yes. It has both sides. And that's ah, how it should be. I know that I read about former, kings in Ireland. They had to marry the land. And I just love this whole concept.
[00:23:50] Unknown:
They had to marry the land.
[00:23:51] Unknown:
They had to marry the land. Like, you know, just like you. You say, to your husband or to your wife, I will take care of you, I will be good to you. I won't harm you. They did the same to the land. And I think that's such a beautiful.
[00:24:06] Unknown:
Kind of love that. Because what happens is, I see foragers, abusing that right that we have and taking the whole patch of wild garlic or whatever it is, for selling. And what we also see here in Sweden, which is a problem, is that people are throwing garbage out in nature. So I always say, you know, in the olden days, indigenous people would give. They would first ask for permission. Can I, you know, the plant spirit. Can I, can I pick you or can I use it? Can you help me? and if the plant said yes, it was okay. And then afterwards they would say thank you by giving something back. Like some indigenous people in America would, give tobacco.
Or like, I heard a story where people who lived up in the mountains in South America would give a shell from the sea to the plant in the mountain and vice versa because, you know, it's a gift they couldn't go and find themselves. So our, our way of reciprocate. Reciprocating. I can't speak. Giving something back is, I think by picking up garbage.
[00:25:30] Unknown:
I'm, I'm telling the same to my students.
[00:25:32] Unknown:
You are amazing.
[00:25:35] Unknown:
It's nice to see so many similarities. Really.
[00:25:38] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:39] Unknown:
I think. Yeah. And sometimes I, they post pictures, of this, my students and I see just trash bags full.
[00:25:48] Unknown:
Yeah, I know. And it takes five minutes. Yeah. Yes.
[00:25:53] Unknown:
It's really appalling.
[00:25:55] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:25:56] Unknown:
I, Yeah. I don't understand people who are. Who are. And I think this is the mind shift that we have to have. Because some people will ask the question, yes, but why would you forage in a place that has a lot of trash? But the real question is why are people throwing trash on. On food?
[00:26:19] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:26:21] Unknown:
That is.
[00:26:21] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:22] Unknown:
Mind shift we should really have about people thinking about nature. And it's crazy how people can just. They don't mind really, and they just throw their trash out.
[00:26:34] Unknown:
Yeah. And I think this is part of the, the lost connection. Is people think they can throw garbage on the ground because they don't really care what's going to happen with it. They don't realize that in fact they're cutting off their own foot because in the long run it's going to harm us the way we treat nature, you know. So, I think that's part of or symptom of the whole problem of the lost connection, which is what I think foraging is. Foraging is not so much, you know, for our part of the world. There's so we have such an abundance of food. So I think for us the foraging is more about making connection.
[00:27:17] Unknown:
Right.
[00:27:18] Unknown:
Nature is to listen, to learn from the plants, to be still, to come back, you know, to come home to ourselves. And for that we don't need so such huge, amounts of plants, you know. But it's, it's the doing. I think that.
[00:27:39] Unknown:
Yes, yes. And coming home is a good. Is a good word for that. It's like a sense of, of belonging.
[00:27:45] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:47] Unknown:
Part of the whole and.
[00:27:48] Unknown:
Yes, yeah, yeah. And then there's the whole issue of course with eating wild, you know, about. We get a more varied diet by eating wild foods in season and it's good for them, microbiome and all that. But Yeah.
[00:28:06] Unknown:
So I was wondering when it comes to the use of m. Medicinal plants, how is that legally worked out in Sweden, is it like a gray zone thing or is it like an officially registered thing, licensed thing or how is that?
[00:28:24] Unknown:
Yeah, it's a little complicated because like you can't make an adulting chair and sell it and say this is great, for cleaning the blood or strengthening the bones or you know, you have, you can't make any claims and I, you probably, I think it's a whole EU thing and in this day it's even worse. Yeah. So, but you can sell Coca Cola to children anyway. but I'm doing a lot of research right now because I'm writing a new book and there is quite a lot of research these days available. It's just that, I mean I can write about it in my book but I can't sell a product making claims, you know, So I, that's, I think that's a lot why I do what I do, I teach.
You know, I write books and I teach so that people can own this knowledge for themselves and use it to maintain their health. so. But I did just today find a report about how actually there is a lot of science done on Nettle and St. John's Wort and meadowsweet, and rhodiola that actually shows that they do work for you know like the Meadow Suite, that it is anti inflammatory and pain relieving and stuff. So it is coming because we need to have new alternatives to some medications because some of the medications are so addictive or they give so many side effect, you know. So. But again doing the research costs a lot of money. So there is But, but it's happening. And some of the research I do now is some cultivated plants like lavender and lemon balm and rosemary and basil. But it's happening. It is happening. And, and the difference with, with the wild, with the plant, at taking the, using the whole plant as medicine, for example nettle, is that if you take if you get a medicine from the pharmacy, it's, it's probably they've taken out, extracted one or two single active substances from the herb. Right. And so it's very, very high, very high concentration which is more harmful for the body.
So that can lead to side effects. And, but in the whole plant there are so many constituents that work together synergetically and plus they're much lower doses. So you have to really take a lot to get like valerian, you can take quite a lot without getting nauseated. So it is happening. And, and herbal medicine is still a big part in the world. I mean it's 80% of the world's population is still using herbs for medicine because they don't have anything else.
[00:31:33] Unknown:
Yeah. So how is that in Sweden? Like do, do medical doctors or do hospitals ever use herbs?
[00:31:41] Unknown:
No, but it's funny because I was I had a doctor's appointment recently at a do checkup and because I, I get really low, I have really. Winter is a really difficult time for me. And well, seasonal affectionate disorder. Ah, seasonal affective disorder. And so I take a lot of herbs in winter. and I was talking about this and he said because I don't, I don't want to take antidepressants because it's not like I get a heavy depression but just life runs out of me. I say and laugh. But anyway, and he said well we can actually prescribe St. John's wort.
And then he looked it up and then he said oh, and now we can't. But so it seems like St. John's word is on and off right now. but it has been. Which is, that was new to me because I Know, in Germany, doctors can prescribe herbs. But so it's, it's interesting. Yeah.
[00:32:40] Unknown:
Oh, it's like allowed and then forbidden.
[00:32:42] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:32:43] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:32:45] Unknown:
So. So I went and. Because my own St. John's Wort, I was out. So I went and bought some more St. John's Wort and I said my doctors approve. So. Yeah, but it's it's happening. There is a great, website called, Herbal Reality. And it's a Dr. Simon, Mills and some other very cool people who are working with it. And so they have monographs on each plant and they have a lot of research links for, you know, references to the research. so it's very, accessible. But you can also find the research there if you want to go really deep. So it's, I see it all over the place. It's, it's coming because it has to because we can't keep living the way we do. So.
[00:33:42] Unknown:
Yes, that's right.
[00:33:43] Unknown:
And the herbal medicine is cheap if you make your own stuff. You know, I have a small little garden here in the city. It's like 4 square meters. So I'm gonna have a herbal garden there with just calming herbs and it's not gonna cost me a lot to plant them. And then I have medicine for years to come.
[00:34:01] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:34:02] Unknown:
Or.
[00:34:03] Unknown:
Yeah, it's, it's. And I think it's good to, to grow your own or to gather your own. I once, a long time ago, I wrote an article about this for Plant Healer magazine. And because in Belgium the medical care is very. It's a very well established system. So, the government pays back most of the costs of the medicine and of the doctor's visits. however, it means that, Yes, I was, I was comparing this in a case where, I was having ah, Lyme disease. Not a chronicle. Chronicle type, but just the acute type. so, it was not that hard to really get rid of it. But I thought, hey, if, if I take these antibiotics, it cost me like only two or three euros.
[00:34:54] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:34:55] Unknown:
If I don't have my own herbs that I can gather, that I can harvest and I have to go to the health food store to get some tinctures, which will be like at least €15 for each tincture bottle. and I could see, when I was traveling in the US I could see this because their Social Security system is not as good as in Belgium, that people are more into herbal medicine because it is always the cheapest option. Pretty much. So, yeah. And it's, it's not that I'm against this, this, this Social Security system. Totally not. But I think it would be nice if like herbal things would also be included.
[00:35:37] Unknown:
Yeah, I, absolutely. And we have the same thing. We have a great system. You know, medicine doesn't, most medications don't cost much. but I think, and I'm definitely not against, you know, modern medicine because it's, it's not black and white. Of course, you know, it's. And I'm always concerned about saying that because there's. Some people seem to think that it's either or. But you know, if I break my leg, I'm not going to go to herbalist.
[00:36:04] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:36:04] Unknown:
You know, if I go to herbalist.
[00:36:05] Unknown:
If I need surgery, I'm going to be so glad with the anesthetics of modern medicine.
[00:36:10] Unknown:
Yeah. And somebody can do the surgery.
[00:36:14] Unknown:
It's, I, I really think it's a.
[00:36:16] Unknown:
Complimentary thing and for sure. And I think the herbs really come in, I use them, I never recommend them to treat diseases because, you know, then you have to really have the person there and that's too complicated. So I really believe in herbs for maintaining health and supporting your health and preventing getting sick in the first place. And then after you had your broken leg mended or after you had your heart attack, then you know, what herbs can support, support me to get better. And to restore. So but yeah, definitely a combination. And some medications are saving lives for sure. There's no doubt.
[00:36:56] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. Because I think like in the case of the antibiotics, and also I'm not against antibiotics, they have a time and a place. But I think the whole environmental cost is not reflected in the price that people pay for it. And whereas if you use herbs, well, the environmental impact like the, the water system is just pretty much non. Existent, so.
[00:37:21] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly. And imagine if. Because I, I think it's heartbreaking to see, you know, how many. I mean, I don't, I'm not perfect. Nobody's perfect. But you know, I, I cook my own food and I cook it from scratch and I try to eat a very diet and a little bit of everything, you know, and organic and all that. But there's so much we can do to support our immune system, for example, and our nervous. If that was more prescribed, you know, to exercise more, spend time in nature and eat healthy and don't smoke and don't drink too much alcohol and do drugs, you know, then we wouldn't need to spend so Much money on many medications. So there is, you know, lifestyle and also, herbs work best in combination with lifestyle. So we have to, we can help the herbs help us by, you know, do getting our daily sun. There's no sunlight today, but at least there is light. You know, getting my exercise, doing my yoga practice or meditation or whatever it is that, hits your heart.
by, you know, eating fairly well and just taking care of yourself. Because then you can't expect the herbs to work. If you drink 10 cups of coffee and you drink a pack, you smoke a pack of cigarettes every day, and think, oh, the St. John's version is not working. Oh, I wonder why.
[00:38:47] Unknown:
Well, this actually reminds me of another podcast, that I made. And, I was telling about, somebody who was asking me for herbs to protect him against lung cancer. And I was, I was a bit surprised and I said, oh, hey, where does this question come from? And he says, well, I'm a chain smoker, but I do not want to get lung cancer, so I'm looking at herbs that can protect me. And so of course I replied to him, nothing will have the same impact as quitting smoking.
[00:39:20] Unknown:
Exactly.
[00:39:21] Unknown:
It's obvious.
[00:39:22] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:22] Unknown:
So, yeah, this, this is the same. You know, it's, it's like this whole picture of chronic stress.
[00:39:28] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:29] Unknown:
Movement.
[00:39:30] Unknown:
Yeah. Good food.
[00:39:31] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:39:32] Unknown:
And maybe stress reduction being top. The most important thing to deal with because that's what causes so much disease. Yes. yes.
[00:39:44] Unknown:
And I think it's really underrated as a factor on our health.
[00:39:48] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:39:48] Unknown:
Chronic stress.
[00:39:49] Unknown:
Yeah, I think so. And sleeplessness, but that comes as a result of the stress. So, yeah, it's complicated. But, I think also the, the herbs and foraging is a great tool for teaching these things because the most common questions I'm sure you get the same questions are worth herbs. Can I, what herb can I take against my, you know, for my headache or for stress or for this and that? And then you have the opportunity to say, well, you can take this herb, but you can also combine it with, try to get your eight hours of sleep. How can I do that? Well, then you can teach them how can they get their eight hours of sleep and how, you know, sleep hygiene and if you take a 40 minute walk every day, then the herbs will have a better chance of working. So it's a great tool for inspiring people to take care of themselves.
[00:40:44] Unknown:
So the next question is a bit personal to you. what is the one plant that you think should get more fame? A plant of which you think is totally underrated.
[00:40:55] Unknown:
Well, you know, Ah, gosh, it depends on season and day and weather. But I think overall, that nettle is such a great plant because it can take care of so much. Because mainly it's the. Probably that because it's so nutritious that it helps our health so much, you know, because many of our issues and imbalances can be because of lack of certain nutrients. You know, it's quite simple. So. And the nettle can clear our bodies from toxins which can support the joints. It will remineralize us. It supports our Our you know, skin, nails, hair. And And Yeah. And the nettle seed, it's also an.
An adaptogen and the, the nettle seeds are also very effective for that. And an adaptogen is a plant. You know that. But just so the listener doesn't feel left outside. It's a plant that can support your body, and. And your adrenals. and it's. It's a support against the effects of stress. so it can sort of make the symptoms a bit milder. And nettle is a great one. And nettle is a food. So you can eat it as a food. You can put it in your freezer, you can dry it. It's easy to make a nettle soup or a nettle pie or nettle risotto or what, nettle, what have you. And if you want to take a cure for six weeks or so, you can make a really, really strong infusion with a lot of nettle that sits overnight. you make an infusion with it overnight.
It's almost like a green soup when you drink it in the morning and then you drink that throughout the day, to remineralize and cleanse and support your liver and digestion. And it's easily accessible. most people can tolerate it. and some people who have problems with their kidneys should avoid it. and also, you know, pay attention to how much you can tolerate. But generally it's considered ah, a vegetable. So you can really eat it. And it grows, it's prolific. I mean it grows everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And vanilla seed is a great, it's actually specific for the for the adrenals. m. Yeah. So after, you know, like when you're burnt out, washed out, exhausted and your adrenals really need support because they've been just producing, you know, stress hormones for a long, long, long, long, long Long time use, nettle, seed. You can eat a teaspoon a day or, actually a tablespoon, or make a tincture.
[00:43:48] Unknown:
Yes, I agree. Staying nettles, we should all just be eating that a lot more. It's so easy to identify. It grows everywhere.
[00:43:58] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:43:59] Unknown:
it's, it's perennial. So if you have a garden. Yeah, I remember when I lived, in my previous house, we had a smaller garden and I just had 1 square meter of stinging nettles. And just the amount of harvest that I got out of this one square meter because you just cut it off and then a couple of weeks later you have the same amount again and you harvest. so, yeah, it's an amazing plant.
[00:44:25] Unknown:
Yeah, it is, it is so beautiful. And of course many people are scared because they're like, oh, but it burns. Yeah, but you can use gloves and a pair of scissors. So, plus, I think they're, they're good for, for keeping the mood up because they actually contain endorphins and, acetylcholine. What is that in English? my mind goes blank right now. But, but, but, yeah, I didn't.
[00:44:49] Unknown:
Know that about the endor.
[00:44:51] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. So it is a great plant. and tasty. and, and then, you know, I, I, right now, you know, it's. What is it? Mid February, I am craving nettles. I can't wait for the fresh nettles. By October, I am so fed up with nettles. And then I only use them like in infusions and not so much for food. And then winter goes, blah, blah, blah, and then comes February. I'm like, ah, I can't wait for new nettles.
[00:45:28] Unknown:
So, yeah, I love the seasonal thing about foraging.
[00:45:31] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:45:31] Unknown:
How you start to crave certain things or how you just know that, oh, I can only harvest it for this two weeks. Like a precious treasure that you're. Yeah. Yes. I love the whole seasoning and also.
[00:45:48] Unknown:
That way it's hard too because some, you know, some plants you shouldn't eat too much of, but eat them, you know, once, once in a time, once in a while. But then it is hard to overdose on, plants that are available for a short time and you eat them and then you go to the next, and then you go to the next and that's, you know, we don't eat strawberries all year. We eat them in summer, you know.
[00:46:08] Unknown:
As it should be.
[00:46:09] Unknown:
As it should be when they are at their best. So with the nettles, there's no risk of overdosing because unless you really eat them every single day of the year. But you don't eat anything every single day of the year.
[00:46:22] Unknown:
Yeah. And you can just add it to everything, like even tomato, ah, sauce. You can just add, you can add them to any kind of soup and dips and on spreads.
[00:46:33] Unknown:
Yeah, we use smoothie or pesto or anything. But, but do collect the seeds? it's a bit of work.
[00:46:42] Unknown:
I love the seeds.
[00:46:43] Unknown:
Yeah, they're amazing. And I put them in salt sometimes with toasted sesame and. Uh-huh. Nice.
[00:46:50] Unknown:
so speaking of seasons, last year I had a Dutch woman that lived in Sweden in my foraging classes and she made me very much aware. She said, well, the plant species that we have here in Sweden, she said, are like 80 to 80, 85% the same as in Belgium and in the Netherlands. However, she said a big factor is a time frame in which we can forage because obviously the winters are a lot harder and longer. So I was wondering how does that affect, affects your foraging? Like, do you harvest more in summer to dry or to.
[00:47:31] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. So, my, my, my busier now I'm not foraging so much for restaurants anymore, but I forage for other reasons. So, of course May from, from when the nettles come. Like April, maybe March. April, May, is super intensive. But then with that said, it depends. I don't try to for forage a million plants every year. You know, like I, I focus on, okay, this year I'm going to focus on sweet woodruff and nettles and that I know what, you know, what I use every year more or less. And then maybe I add something new. So I know this year I'm going to go for the nettles and the sweet woodruff and lindenflower.
I do a lot of roses and rose hips. So May, June is super intensive and that's when I do most of my workshops also. and I'm foraging for an event, in May and they need two kilos of nettles, that's no problem. But they also need one kilo kilo of mixed, you know, herbs for salad. One kilo is a lot, you know, it's. Yeah, so there's many occasions like that. So I try to focus on what I need for myself. I try to spread that out over the year. And then, so, yeah, so May, June is intensive. And then of course, you know, with St. John's wort and red clover, and yarrow Are plants that I pick. But I can pick them mostly all summer. Like June, July, and then comes August, September with rowan, berry and elderberry and rose hips. and and hawthorne, of course. I love hawthorne. Very good for the heart. Makes, me happy. Yeah. So, that gets pretty intense then.
And then in winter I can take a walk without looking at the ground all the time. which is a bit of a rest. Ah. But we, can forage here because now, for example, the rose hips that are left on the bushes, we can still forage all winter. Although they're a little wrinkled, but they taste. The flavor gets more intense. I make a soup. Yeah. And I can also forage still. You know, pine needles are great for making pine needle, infusion, which is very uplifting and warming, which I like to love.
[00:49:58] Unknown:
I love just the smell and stuff.
[00:50:01] Unknown:
It amazing. But if you drink it in the summer, it's like. It's a winter flavor, isn't it?
[00:50:07] Unknown:
Yeah, it's a winter thing.
[00:50:08] Unknown:
Yeah. So, no, but I think it's good to have, you know, to rest in the winter. And winter is for like this winter I'm writing, doing research, thinking, doing podcasts. and, and you know, I kind of like that rhythm. Because in spring and summer I always have that. You know, it's like a pull. I feel like I should, I have to go. You know, there's always something pulling me from.
[00:50:41] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:50:41] Unknown:
And it's longer.
[00:50:43] Unknown:
You have more energy.
[00:50:44] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:50:45] Unknown:
It's like the natural cycle of things. I, I would not want to be caught up in a job where I had to do like equal efforts in the winter, in the summer, because it doesn't feel natural to me.
[00:50:58] Unknown:
No.
[00:50:59] Unknown:
Yeah. So I'm really happy with this seasonal effect of.
[00:51:03] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's also another beautiful thing about learning to forage is that you do get that, natural rhythm with nature. Because even if I go out now, I still connect. You know, I look for the buds and something sticking up there or what's under the snow there. But yeah, to have that break now it's time for hibernation still.
[00:51:27] Unknown:
And I love how you say that you focus on certain plants and I think that's also part of being more skilled and experienced forager. Like, you know, we had a. Not last summer, but the few summers before that it was very dry and we hardly had any elderberries. So I, I just, just didn't gather the elderberries. I thought the birds need them more than we do. last year we Had a really cold spring, so I didn't. I didn't harvest any flowers of the early spring flowers because I thought, you know, the insects will really be starving and they really need them. So these are kind of the. Yeah. The things that you develop when you.
[00:52:11] Unknown:
For sure.
[00:52:12] Unknown:
Experience.
[00:52:12] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's exactly how we need to harvest, sustainably. And I think that's why I think nature is such a foraging and such a great way to learn how to use nature's, resources. I don't like the word resources, because they are there for their own sake. But anyway, in a balanced way, because when you go out and forage, you see immediately the effect of what you've done. If you take all the plants in one batch, they will be gone.
[00:52:44] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:52:45] Unknown:
You know, so you're exactly right. We need to be mindful. If there's no rowan berry, we don't go for the rowan berry. We take them for next year. You know, I'm just curious.
[00:52:57] Unknown:
What. What do you use rowan berries for or how.
[00:53:01] Unknown:
Oh, I love. I love rowan berry, and I think.
[00:53:03] Unknown:
That'S what I use them for. My voice. For the throat.
[00:53:06] Unknown:
Oh, really?
[00:53:07] Unknown:
Yeah, for the throat. Using them.
[00:53:13] Unknown:
Yeah. They're another underestimated flavor. I. I love that bitter, sour flavor. and I can eat them raw and make people go, ew. but that's another thing that the plants can teach us is different flavors. But, Yeah, so what I like to do, my favorite thing, I think, is to. To, I put them in the freezer overnight and then thaw them and mix them with just a little bit of honey, like, only enough to make the berries, like, a little sticky. And then add a pinch of salt. And I put it in a clean jar and put it in the fridge for about a week. And then the honey and the salt will pull out the liquids from the rowan berries, and that becomes like a little, compote or something. And you can eat that with anything.
[00:54:02] Unknown:
All right.
[00:54:03] Unknown:
Really delicious, because then you have added the sweetness so they. They get a little more palatable. And, I've also made shrub or oxymel, you know, with honey and honey and apple cider vinegar. And I let that sit for a really long time, like months. And I get this bright red, liquid, and it tastes like Campari.
[00:54:29] Unknown:
Oh, really?
[00:54:31] Unknown:
I know. So. And then I take a little bit with. With carbonated water, and it's like a cocktail. Wow. But it's not alcoholic. Yeah.
[00:54:41] Unknown:
Well, this is. This is something I'VE always heard about rowan berries, that if you make something with it like. Like a rowan berry jelly. Yeah. And you let it stand for months or even for years, that it just changes in flavor, becomes more interesting and more. Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:58] Unknown:
It's super interesting flavor. And I've made tonic from it. I had china bark and cooked, it with some other spices. I can't remember which exactly. and made it a tonic to use for. I was doing this tonic project for a company that we're developing wild tonics. And, Yeah, that was delicious. And then you can use it for cocktails. You can use your shrub for cocktails as well. I'm not a big fan of cocktails, but for those who are, Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you can use, So then you only use the liquid, but you can save the berries and use them like, in cakes.
Imagine making a really dark, gooey chocolate cake, and then you add some rowan berry. That makes a really interesting combo. Coke, chocolate, and rowan. It's nice. Yeah. I've dried them, to use in, like, granolas or in cookies or bread else have I done. I don't make jellies because I'm not a big, big jelly eater. But you can make jams and, you know, stuff like that. But I love the oxymo and the. The honey, thing.
[00:56:18] Unknown:
All right.
[00:56:18] Unknown:
Thank you for.
[00:56:19] Unknown:
For sharing that.
[00:56:20] Unknown:
You're welcome.
[00:56:21] Unknown:
You. You mentioned previously the. The rosehip soup. That's really typically Swedish.
[00:56:27] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:56:28] Unknown:
And you say soup, but it's really like more of a sweet thing.
[00:56:31] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, when I was a kid, we would have very common thing, rosehip soup, or cream of rosehip. But it was made from a powder that came out of a paper bag, and it was very sweet, and we ate it with little m. Almond cookies. So, and cream or ice cream. Very yummy. Very sweet. Now, if you make the real thing, you take the rose hips, and remove the little rest leftover from the flour, and, let them simmer in water for maybe 15, 20 minutes. And then with the seeds and everything, and then you take a blender and blend it to a soup, and then it becomes really gooey because all the seeds are in there.
And you go, oh, I can't eat this because the seeds are like gravel. You know, they're really hard. plus they have little hairs on them, which are itchy in the throat.
[00:57:27] Unknown:
Oh, it's terrible.
[00:57:28] Unknown:
I know. Oh, and so then you take, a Sieve and put it over a bowl. And then you take a spoonful at a time of the sort of roasted porridge and put it in the sieve and strain it. I take a spoon and sort of go push, push, push. And, So that the. The liquid or the. The cream of rosehip comes through the seam into the bowl, and then you can throw away the seeds on the compost. and then I put that in the freezer, because then when I use it, I can decide how to flavor it. Do I want to use it for dessert? I can sweeten, it.
[00:58:08] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:58:09] Unknown:
or I can use, it in a dressing, you know, with oil and vinegar, or a marinade. so it's. And it's. It's super delicious. And it's, of course, full of antioxidants and vitamin C. And the mix shouldn't boil. It should just simmer, because otherwise you destroy the antioxidants. But, yeah, so that's really easy. and, yeah, some people. I. And I've done this once, but it's so much work. The seeds are really. They have a really precious oil in them, and they're rich, really rich in antioxidants. You know, you can buy rose oil. I know.
[00:58:51] Unknown:
Kitchen supply.
[00:58:52] Unknown:
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, you can't do that. But with the seeds, after I bo. After I had them simmer and. And made the rosehip cream, I once. I dried them on very low temperature, in the oven, and then they become a little crunchy, and then I mix them in a blender. Uh-huh. To a powder. But, you know, it's so much work. You know, it's. Yeah, you can do that. But, you know, I still. Yeah.
[00:59:21] Unknown:
I've cooked up rose hips before and then just strained them, like you mentioned.
[00:59:25] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:59:26] Unknown:
And I love to just put a little bit of salt in there and then, just use it as a replacement for tomato. Like, on a whole.
[00:59:34] Unknown:
Yeah, exactly. Like ketchup.
[00:59:38] Unknown:
Yes.
[00:59:38] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:40] Unknown:
With some spices. Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:42] Unknown:
Because it's not so sweet. It's quite. It's right.
[00:59:46] Unknown:
You know, like, tomato also has this little bit acidic thing, but also a sweet thing, especially if you boil it for a longer time.
[00:59:55] Unknown:
Yeah.
[00:59:55] Unknown:
Continue with a pasta sauce. So. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting flavor.
[00:59:59] Unknown:
Roasted pizza. That's nice. Oh, I had, I've had rose. I've had, what was the other berry we talked about? the row and berry, the rowan berry. I had those on pizza with goat cheese and nettles. That's really yummy as well. Speak your pizza. Yeah, yeah. Ah, yeah. So. And the rose hips, of course it's, you can use them just as an infusion. You don't have to make a soup. but, but it is delicious and you can make ice cream from it and. Yeah, so that's yummy. Wow. So. And I think that, yeah, no, I'm sorry. But I think this is also part of the benefits is that first it makes you really creative inventing recipes and it's a sense of satisfaction, you know, which I think is good for health because nowadays we can buy anything. We don't even have to cook our food anymore. We don't have to sew our clothes, we don't have to build our furniture.
and when we do make something with our hands, you know, I'm a knitter. I used to knit since I was a child. And you know that satisfaction when you put on your own scarf that you made or you built the chair or whatever, or bring home food from nature and cook it, there is a satisfaction in that. I did this myself. That's very self empowering and I think that is super important today when we basically all we have to do is push buttons all day.
[01:01:31] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's another thing as well that, and this is what I, what I like some of my friends are into Ayurvedic medicine. Medicine or like traditional Chinese medicine. And I think if you cook for yourself, especially with wild plants, you also more have attention to what is it that my body needs to take. Like what is the weather? Like, what is, what am I feeling like today? Like oh, maybe I have a bit of a runny nose or you know, maybe I feel a little bit tired and then just adjusts what you are cooking for yourself or for your family. And I think in the Western world this, this is a factor that has almost disappeared.
[01:02:20] Unknown:
Yeah, yeah it is. And that's why I think Ayurveda is, is such a great. I'm, I'm not, I mean I, I'm a little bit familiar with tcm but not deep. but I've exposed myself more to Ayurveda and eating foods, local foods in season is very much a part of Ayurveda. so it's, it's. And also of course learning the dynamics with cooling and heating and drying and drying, wet and moisturizing and all that that makes, it adds a whole dimension, M hm. To herbalism, of course. Yeah, yeah.
[01:02:58] Unknown:
And We've been talking a lot about.
[01:03:00] Unknown:
I know.
[01:03:01] Unknown:
And there is for me, I don't know. I've never been to Sweden, but I come. There is a Swedish thing with berries.
[01:03:08] Unknown:
Oh yes.
[01:03:10] Unknown:
so you have like wild strawberries, and wild blueberries which we also have in Belgium. But then you also have like Lincoln.
[01:03:21] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Cranberries. Oh my gosh. You don't have them in Belgium. Oh my goodness. well, you know that, that's like foraging for. For berries and mushroom is a very Swedish thing. It's what we do. and that's good. That's the way many people get their nature connection. so the lingonberries are quite m. A bit, I want to say accurate, a bit little sour. so they're often made into jam to be more pal. It's not something we really eat raw. Like, like blueberries you can just put in your mouth right away by the mouthful. You know, I put more in my mouth than in my bucket when I go out and pick.
[01:04:10] Unknown:
Same here.
[01:04:11] Unknown:
I know it's chocolates, but and that's when they test taste best. So you know, the lingonberries are better cooked and delicious. You know, make a lingonberry pie with fudge or using them with food like a jam is a very common thing. Meatballs with lingonberry jam and potato. And potato mashed potatoes is like. That's Swedish traditional farmer's food, you know. which is a very strange thing to many people is eating something sweet with, you know, salty food.
[01:04:48] Unknown:
Yeah, the same with applesauce.
[01:04:51] Unknown:
Ah, of course. Yeah. So m. and also you have a bit of the same climate and maybe history with like farmers. You know, you took what you had in season. You had. Then you had the applesauce and then you had the pork and or whatever, you know. so the lingonberries, my grandfather would always eat his overnight oats, with ah, berries. Which means that you take them raw and mix them with a little bit of sugar as you stir them with sugar. So that's because they, they contain a natural preservative. So you can actually preserve lingonberries in a jar with water and it'll keep a really long time in the fridge. So the, the stirred the, the lingonberries that are stirred with sugar raw, they will keep really well and then you get a really even fresher taste of the, of the lingonberries.
So that was his like milk overnight oats and raw lingonberries for sugar breakfast. And what were the Other ones. Oh, my gosh. Cloud. To me, cloudberries is a luxury because I live in Stockholm, which is far from the north, But I was up once there going, cloudberry picking with a friend. and I thought I was in heaven, because I'd never seen them real before. This is maybe 10 years ago. And, I mean, I had seen them, like, on a plate or in a shop, but never on the ground. I'd never picked them. And it's just one berry on each little plant, whereas in, you know, blueberries, kind of 50 blueberries on one plant. But here's one, one, one, one, one. And you go. And the ground is quite wet where they grow. And, on a good day, where there's a lot of cloudberries, it's like a yellow field of. And you have. The air up there in the mountains is so wonderful. So to me, that's really something extraordinary. And then to eat them with just cream, plain, natural, like that is amazing.
and you can actually eat them with, You can, like with the lingam berries, you know, with a little bit of sugar. And you stir them and eat them with. With cream. And that's a very common dessert up there.
[01:07:19] Unknown:
I love berries.
[01:07:21] Unknown:
I know. They're amazing. And, you know, they make you feel so rich in August. You know, harvest time is such a. It's such a. Ah. It's such an abundant time. Because where I live, where I have my country house, there's a far. Some friends have a farm, and they grow a lot of vegetables. So, you know, when they harvest, there's the carrots and pumpkins and tomatoes and lettuce and squash and everything. And in the forest, there's the roseberries and the lingonberries and the rowan berries, and it's like. It's such a time of abundance. Uh-huh. which is really gratifying.
[01:07:55] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm experiencing this in my garden and the hedgerows here, I think, oh, there's. There's not enough time to, pick it all and to, you know, you just have to make choices sometimes.
[01:08:08] Unknown:
Yeah. And that's something I've learned over the years, is to make those choices. I don't need to make 25 different tinctures. You know, I've learned which ones more or less I need over the year. same with her, you know, so, yeah, in the beginning, you know, I would make 30 different oils and lots of tinctures because it was so much fun. And pills and honeys and oxmose and this and that, But then you have to use them and you can't pick more than you're actually going to use up.
[01:08:38] Unknown:
Exactly.
[01:08:39] Unknown:
But you can put in the freezer. So.
[01:08:41] Unknown:
Yeah, the freezer is really good for. Especially for berries, because they cook so well in the freezer.
[01:08:46] Unknown:
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And the berries are great for shrubs too, or smells. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
[01:08:53] Unknown:
Yeah, that's right. So is there a thing you think the government could do to, help restore this connection between people and plants?
[01:09:06] Unknown:
Schools start with the kids. Absolutely. I, think it should be, part of the kids education. They spend so much time in front of their screens, but they should spend more time in the forest or just growing carrots or something and learn about plants for sure. And I've been working a little bit with children and foraging and teaching them very common, easy to identify plants. They learn so fast. It's amazing. And then the kids love to teach their parents.
[01:09:40] Unknown:
Exactly.
[01:09:40] Unknown:
You know.
[01:09:41] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:09:42] Unknown:
So that's a beautiful thing. And if you. Exactly. So if you have that knowledge from childhood where you feel safe in nature, which I am blessed to have. Not everybody feels safe in nature. so that's also a learning process. So that's one thing. And I also think that, if like forest therapy or spending time in nature with, a therapist, you know, or on your own could be something that people who are burnt out, or recovering from sickness, if that could be part of their. If they could get a recipe. You know, you don't need a recipe to go out in the forest, but sometimes you just need for an authority to tell you, okay, or you need to go with a therapist, you know, first. Therapy is great.
It's great medicine. It's just used in Japan a lot and in other parts of the world, south, in, South Korea, Thailand. Yeah. So using, nature as a recipe for, recovering and treating very, you know, depression. And I think that would be an amazing thing because once you, you once that connection clicks, it never goes away.
[01:10:58] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:10:59] Unknown:
You know?
[01:10:59] Unknown:
Yes. That's also what I experienced myself. If I look back on my childhood, I was like my childhood and then my teenage years. I was actually a really lonely child and I discovered a plants. And I never felt alone.
[01:11:15] Unknown:
Exactly.
[01:11:15] Unknown:
I just. Yeah, it clicked. It's exactly the way you describe it. And it never goes away. It's like something that is installed inside of me, in my essence, and it's part of who I am and it will never, ever go away.
[01:11:30] Unknown:
No. And like you said, you, you hit it Right there about not feeling alone. Because that a lot of people suffer from that today. From feeling disconnected and feeling. And I mean myself. I live on my own, I work on my own. I spend a lot of time by the computer, by my kitchen table. And sometimes I don't meet. I mean, I meet people every day because I have neighbors. But, I spend a lot of time on my own. And sometimes, yeah, that can get very lonely. But when I do go out in the forest, it somehow just goes away. If nothing else and at least temporarily. And. And I think that's so. So it's, it's great medicine. It really is.
[01:12:11] Unknown:
Yeah. More people should experience it.
[01:12:14] Unknown:
Yeah. And once they start going out in the forest, maybe they start meeting people they can go out in the forest with and they won't be so lonely anymore. Yeah.
[01:12:24] Unknown:
So, one question that I asked to all of my interviewees. So as a herbalist in Sweden, are you ever called a witch? And I'm asking, this because people keep telling me, hey, Leafa, you're so lucky to live in this day and age because you would have been burned alive, previous times. Is it the same in Sweden?
[01:12:45] Unknown:
Yeah. And they say, oh, you're a witch. But I'm not a witch. I have great respect for people who call themselves witches because they have a certain knowledge that they're interested in. that hasn't appealed to me, which is very intricate and deep and, and I'm sure important in many ways. but that's not, that hasn't been my path. I'm not a witch. I use herbs for maintaining health and as you know, as part of a, ah, sustainable lifestyle. and yeah, but, but it's true that, that women and men with knowledge on how to use plants, they were burned on the stakes and, and that could have happened to us.
Absolutely. Because they weren't necessarily practicing Wicca practices. They were just healers, you know, doing what you and I do, teaching people how to use plants to stay healthy. but no, I'm not a witch. And sometimes it can bother me that Because that's a whole different profession and path. but I guess because it's so new to people and like plant m. Blindness, it's like, oh, you work with plant, you're rich.
[01:14:02] Unknown:
Yeah, it's like they have to categorize.
[01:14:05] Unknown:
Exactly. And I don't want to be categorized. Sometimes I work with plants, sometimes I'm a writer, sometimes I'm just hanging out with my friends. I'm just me I'm a herbal and I'm a, nature, ah, forest therapy guide. But I do a lot of things. so. But yeah, you're right. It's like people need that categorization and distancing perhaps because it seems so strange and it seems like the Wicca, whole thing is growing. And I see more and more people calling themselves witches, on Instagram. And I'm sure that has healing benefits for them and that's great, but it's not what I do.
Yeah.
[01:14:49] Unknown:
So listen, if people want to find more info about you, about your work with plants, where can they get more info? Like a website, Social media accounts?
[01:14:59] Unknown:
Yeah, I'm on Instagram and you can find me at Life by Listen. And I'm Sometimes I post a lot and sometimes I post not so much. I try to be fairly regular. and then I have a website called lifebylison.com where I post. You can read about my books. They're in Swedish, some of them have been translated but not to Dutch, but to Polish, and Norwegian and other languages. But yeah. And, and also about my, my workshops which I do, here in Sweden. So. Right. This year I'm focusing a lot on a new book which will be. I will announce more about later in the year, which is very fun.
Yeah. So, yeah, so that's, that's where you can find me. And if you're in Sweden, stop by and say hello. Come to my workshops at. Or something.
[01:15:58] Unknown:
All right.
[01:15:59] Unknown:
All, right.
[01:15:59] Unknown:
So thank you. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it.
[01:16:05] Unknown:
and thank you for reaching out. This is fun. Foragers unite.
[01:16:10] Unknown:
Yes.
[01:16:11] Unknown:
Yeah. Stay wild. Thank you so much.
[01:16:16] Unknown:
You're very welcome. You're very welcome.
[01:16:18] Unknown:
Thank you.
[01:16:19] Unknown:
And to you, Wildy, that has been listening, thank you for being here. I hope to see you back with our next episode. And in the meantime, keep nourishing your wild soul and keep powdering your nose with dandelion pollen. Bye.
[01:16:33] Unknown:
Word.
[01:16:42] Unknown:
A warm thank you for listening. Wildy. Are you feeling a wild itch after this episode? Well, just head over to wildplantforager.com and feel free to connect with me on social media. I'm looking forward to the next episode. I hope you'll be there, but for now just go outside and follow your wild heart.
