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Worried your art is not mainstream enough, the more niche the better! In Ep#61 we're learning about the long tail of producing art, 3 forces underlying the unequal distribution & my vision of a new economic market.

Huge thanks to Sam Sethi, McIntosh, Dave Jones, Chad F & Jeanpaul for supporting the show (plus everyone streaming as well). You all make this podcast happen!

40% of this episode is going to Cole, Sven, The Doerfels and the app developers who make this all possible.

Statistics Links:
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/stats
Castos: https://castos.com/how-much-money-can-podcasters-make/
Transistor: https://transistor.fm/make-money-podcasting/


Timeline:
(0:00) - Intro
(1:57) - What Is The Long Tail?
(5:17) - Quote 1
(9:02) - The 3 Forces
(13:05) - Quote 2
(18:33) - What Happens After Connection?
(20:10) - Quote 3
(24:06) - Stats & Examples
(33:15) - Boostagram Lounge
(37:46) - Latest Developments
(40:08) - Why Bitcoin
(44:40) - V4V: Time/Talent/Treasure
(47:52) - Cherry On Top by Ainsley Costello


Value 4 Value Support:
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Connect With Kyrin/Mere Mortals:
Website: https://www.meremortalspodcast.com/
Discord: https://discord.gg/jjfq9eGReU
Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/meremortalspods
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TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@meremortalspodcasts

Connect With My V4V Collaborators:
Cole: https://twitter.com/colemccormick1
Sven: https://twitter.com/StarfuryFlames
The Doerfels: https://www.doerfelverse.com/
Ainsley Costello: https://ainsleycostello.com/

[00:00:00] Unknown:

Worried your art is not mainstream enough.   The more niche, the better.   And so   I do.   This.   Welcome, everyone to another   episode of the value for value show.   I'm your host   Kyrin live here on the first of the fourth 2024.   Indeed it is April Fools.   But we're not fooling around today.   We're going to be learning from the book   The Long Tail by Chris Anderson for today's   episode of the value for Value Show.   Now, for those who are perhaps joining   in, you have never heard of this.   The value for value is   is a model   that I explain here on this podcast,   explaining essentially   how digital content creators   of whatever form they are, you know, music,   text, podcasting, audio books, digital art,   whatever you do that is digital and online.  

I explain how you can connect   directly with your audience, rather   than through the external means of perhaps   using social media or trying to do it through   a PayPal or Patreon or something like that.   And how you can also   understand that value is not just in   the monetary form, but also very subjective.   And we can use   multiple different ways of connecting value.   Now The Long Tail by Chris Anderson.   It's a book review I've done actually   on the Mere Mortals book reviews and   my essential argument for for today's episode   is that   the podcasting medium,   and probably most of the other things   I was talking about just   then, is a long tail and value for value.  

Best serves this long tail, which is the 99%.   So in today's episode, we're going to be learning   about the long tail of producing   art of whatever form the three forces   underlying this unequal distribution.   And we'll learn about that   from what the long tail is.   And then my vision of a new economic market   that is going to emerge from all of this,   and why I think value   for value is going to be a pretty   important part of this.   So let's start off with the the basics.   What is the long tail now?   The long tail started off as a blog post   that Chris Anderson was writing, and Chris   Anderson was the, I believe,   editor of wired magazine.  

So he was very much in   a kind of like tech nerdy   writing journalism   about what was happening with tech.   And he was noticing in the that businesses   were transforming in the early 2000,   and that behemoth   companies were were really starting   to emerge from this.   So he wrote this blog post.   It was such a popular blog post   that he turned it into a full book.   And what was the fundamental cause   that could give rise to something like alphabet,   which is owns Google, owns YouTube of Amazon.   We all know what Amazon is.   And then also meta, you know, Facebook   and their suite of apps and things that they've,   conglomerated Instagram, WhatsApp, etc., etc.  

which, by the way, these companies currently   are occupying the fifth, sixth and seventh, places   of the biggest companies in the world.   So trillions of dollars.   Where did all of this come from?   What was the underlying forces from this?   Well, in my words,   technology   allows for economic efficiencies,   and that gives us access   to a greater   range of products and the most obvious in   this case   is the transformation of atoms into bits, i.e.   physical things that we have.   So music used to be a very physical thing.   You'd either have to go to a orchestra,   an opera or something like that   to hear it,   or then it turned into,   you know, CDs, and you'd buy the CD.  

And then it was this kind of like in between   where you would   have this physical thing,   but it could be,   heard through   a more digital medium, I suppose, through   speakers and stuff.   And now music just exists in this ephemeral   cloud somewhere.   And I go onto my phone and I use YouTube music,   or I use Spotify, or I use Pandora,   whatever streaming service or YouTube, directly.   So we see, okay,   there's been a really big transformation.   And in that transformation,   a lot of value has been created.   And it also allows   a lot more opportunities for things that weren't   that were too costly to use and then be, created.  

And as I said, most of this is really obvious   with the   the rapid rise of these companies, but   we could have also seen it in the past where it's   not just atoms into bits, but it was also,   you know, through   efficiencies of storage, of supply chain logistics,   where the supermarket, for example,   is another great example where were previously in,   know, a little corner   shop store   you could only get perhaps you know,   one brand of toothpaste, maybe two.   Whereas if you go out there   now there's this like 15, there's   so many different options you can choose from.   And so this is the   fundamental thing that the long tail   is where it's saying there's a very long range   of products of creations which are available   and or could be available, but there's a kind   of like artificial cap.  

And so this is where you see,   in this long tail where it's essentially a graph   X axis is or will be of some metric.   sorry, the Y axis will be of some metric.   The x axis.   The x axis will be of the amount of things.   And it's a really boring graph because essentially   it just hugs the y and then hugs the x.   So forms this kind of reverse L-shape.   And this is where we we see okay   with technology with changes   we can actually open up a lot new products.   But I won't just give you my, words for it.   We're going to read from the book,   or call will read from the book,   of Chris   Anderson giving us an idea in his own words,   what the long tail is as well.  



[00:05:35] Unknown:

The theory of the long tail can be boiled down   to this.   Our culture   and economy   are increasingly shifting away   from a focus on a relatively small   number of hits,   mainstream products and markets   at the head of the demand curve   and moving toward a huge number of niches   in the tail.   In an era   without the constraints of physical shelf space   and other bottlenecks of distribution,   narrowly targeted   goods and services can be as economically   attractive as mainstream fare.   But that's not enough.   Demand must follow this new supply,   otherwise the tail will wither   because the tail is measured   not just in available variety,   but in the people who gravitate towards it.  

The true   shape of demand is revealed   only when consumers are offered infinite choice.   It is the aggregate sales, use   or other participation of all those people   in the newly available niches   that turns   the massive expansion   of choice into an economic and cultural force.   The long tail starts with a million niches,   but it isn't meaningful until those niches   are populated with people who want them.  

[00:06:39] Unknown:

Yeah, so is funny.   So I actually stole this image from page   19 of the book and extended it.   So if you're looking at your screen   now, you'll see right at the bottom it's got   on the Y axis downloads, X axis podcast rank.   And you'll see it goes from   geez, I've got was up to 70,000 podcast   on on the bottom and then downloads.   It's getting into like   the hundreds of thousands, 120, 130,000 on the   on the Y axis.   And it's once,   as I said, it's a really boring graph.   And this is shows what it, it kind of   actually looks like.   So I actually extended this graph from the book   because it   wasn't a good representation,   and it still actually   isn't a good representation.  

It actually needs to be 40 times longer   on the x axis and 40 times longer on the Y.   And because this is where there's,   you know,   probably about a full million   podcasts out there   and the bigger shows   that are getting up into the,   you know, tens of millions of plays,   not into the hundreds of thousands.   And this is where   we have things for, you know, like the Joe   Rogan's to capture those ones.   But there's only going to be, you know,   50 of, of him and, and you know, he is, well,   a truly above the next person who's below him.   And so you get this really unequal distribution.  

And this is just   what happens that   there's no kind of like, rhyme, no reason for it.   Popularity makes you know, it's it's it's   kind of like those celebrities who are famous   for being famous, that sort of thing.   And so we should now go, okay, this doesn't   only just apply to podcasts,   but it applies to music,   audiobooks, ebooks, digital art.   This graph was actually,   created to show the downloads   for this thing called Rhapsody.   And that's a big, long, complicated thing   related to Napster and Rhapsody.   If so,   if you have never   heard of it before, just   just imagine the first   service or one of the first services   that allowed   streaming of   MP3 is on the internet, and you kind of get   get what they did.  

So this long tail occurs in many,   many different places and essentially   a lot of people   want to create things only if you are able to,   you know,   really get recognised   only if you get massive fame and, and,   you know, associated wealth with that.   But there's a lot of   people who are still creating things   and they're not really getting served.   And this is where we're going to jump   into this next section here,   which is talking about the the three forces.   So, these are the three forces that,   allow the long tail to,   I guess,   be be monetised in a way, to get more exposure.  

And the three forces are the   democratising the tools   of production,   democratising the tools of distribution   and connecting supply and demand.   So what do these actually mean?   Well,   the first is easy to understand   for all digital things that I live, listed above.   So, and I actually even   did a podcast on this recently,   called Podcast Tools, which was just explaining,   you know,   if you want to start a podcast,   you really don't need much.   You need a microphone.   It's one thing,   perhaps some headphones,   you can even get away without them   and some sort of computer or device to capture that   audio on.  

That's that's all you need in terms of the hardware   and then software wise and services   wise, distribution   wise, there's podcast hosts out there   which will let you do it for free, even.   And all the others, extremely, extremely,   cost cost effective.   Like they don't cost much at all.   So it's very, very easy to put a podcast out there.   And I think the same   things are happening for the music.   It's much easier to buy equipment   to, be able to use software to create things.   I always use this example, but one of the more   famous Australian music artist DJs,   whatever you want to call him, called flume.  

He started off with a,   a small deejay thing that you get   from a Kellogg's   Nutri-Grain packet and,   that's just a cereal   that we have here in Australia.   And he just got it from that.   And that's how he kind of got his start   as a musician, creating stuff on that,   obviously advanced his technical skills.   But you can get started with basically anything.   So democratising   the tools of production,   I think this also applies to digital art, to,   you know, drawings to creations,   which you might turn into digital things.   The amount of free software   programs out there that allow you to create,   you know, pictures, images, whatever,   it's all there.  

Okay. So we've got the the tools of production.   More people are able to create things   the, the next supply.   And this has the effect of   lengthening the long tail,   making more things available.   in just in general, there's   just more people creating stuff.   The second one, is also easy to see in place.   And this is, democratising   the tools of distribution.   So I kind of already talked about it,   the, for podcasting.   This is host this is directories.   This is apps that all distribute audio widely.   So if you   no matter where you are in the world, there's,   there's basically if you've got a phone,   you can access some sort of audio in podcast form.  

And this is where you'll   there was a recent interesting,   article on Pod Newsweekly,   or a conversation where Sam Sethi had a chat with,   this Indian   fellow got, got him, and he was talking about how   Apple isn't very widely adopted in India.   it's kind of viewed as a thing for the rich people.   And so most people use various different phones   and there's just specialised apps,   you know, that,   directly for those people with these phones,   which are kind of like smartphones,   but not really smart phones,   but they can still get audio because it's just   the distribution mechanisms are out there.  

And these same things apply for music   through Spotify, YouTube music, Bandcamp,   which is the distributor of all of these. Yes.   It takes a little bit of money to do it.   It's not free.   Free, but you can still do this,   and you can be an individual artist   in your home.   Strumming away YouTube, even Justin Bieber.   Perfect example.   He was able to get out there.   He was very much in the long tail when he first,   arrived on the scene, I guess, and then, you know,   shot up to ridiculous levels.   So we see that   there's no reason your stuff can't be found   if someone was to go looking for it.  

Now, the problem is still existing for   I believe in for digital content creators   as this final portion.   So this is the connecting of supply and demand.   So what we're going to see now is from page 5657   which details what happens when consumers   have the tools   to interact with creators and with other consumers.  

[00:13:15] Unknown:

Consumers also act as guides   individually when they post user   reviews or blogs about their likes and dislikes.   Because it's now so easy to tap   into this grassroots information,   when you're looking for something   new, you're more likely   to find what you want faster than ever.   That has the economic effect of encouraging you   to search farther outside the world.   You already know,   which drives demand down into the niches.   The other thing that happens   when consumers talk amongst themselves   is that they discover   that collectively, their tastes   are far more diverse than the marketing plans   being fired at them suggest their interests   splinter into narrower and narrower communities   of affinity, going deeper and deeper   into their chosen subject matter.  

As is always the case when like minds gather,   encouraged by the company, virtual or not,   they explore the unknown together,   venturing farther from the beaten path.   The explosion of these technologies   that connect consumers   is what drives demand from the head to the tail.   In other words,   the third force further increases   demand for the niches and flattens the curve,   shifting its centre of gravity to the right.  

[00:14:24] Unknown:

So one of the things that make   I think   podcasting really great,   and especially over these past couple of years, is   we're seeing this ability for the audience to   create stuff for themselves   from the products themselves.   And there's really interesting dynamics.   And this is actually what made social media   so exciting for the first time,   because there was no,   you know, there was internet   message boards, but that   and they were they had their time.   That was a revelation   of a new technology when it first came out.   And then social media, which allowed you to be   a bit more publicly visible   with who you're following, how you're following,   so people can follow   these trails down and see, like, oh,   he knows this person   because he knows that that sort of thing.  

And I think that this is   a similar sort of thing is happening   now with with podcasting, which is   places like fountain.   And so for those who don't know,   fountain is a podcasting app where you can   especially they really highlight   this aspect of of sending money   back and forth using booster grams   and using Bitcoin. Satoshis.   And this is appears right on their front screen.   It's pretty much   the first thing you see   some clips at the top,   and then these comments of what   people are interacting with down below.   And I think this exposure is, is really helpful in,   in creating this connection   that we're talking about.  

in or from the quote that we saw just there,   which is, you know, you can splinter down   into these narrower and narrower communities.   All this podcast is, you know,   Bitcoin related to farming technology out.   And you know, the centre of nowhere   and in middle America or something   extremely niche podcast.   It's not going to be broad wide scale appeal yet.   They can still have a community.   They can still, connect with their audience   and their audience can connect with them   with each other,   writing the podcast itself, so   fattening this long tail, making it bigger,   which was the, I suppose, the   the next expert aspect of what happens when   when the,   the supply and demand happens.  

And what we end up seeing   is that the, the mega major hits   the Joe Rogan's of the world.   They kind of decreased down a little bit.   And that distribution   goes more   into the long tail once people realise,   oh, there's a niche podcast here,   which is even niche.   You're into the aliens or it's even niche,   or into these other ridiculous things   that he talks about on his show.   Now, I think this can go even further.   Fountain's had a really good   stab at this, and it's been my favourite   app over these last couple of years.   Well, I think we'll we'll see   even more of this coming out.  

I know Sam Sethi.   I talked about him just before,   we'll take this even further   with leaderboards   and things like this in true fan, where   I kind of think that is where a lot of the value   can really be driven from, from podcasting,   obviously, you need a really good app   that's solid with the technology   to do the the main essential thing   that a and,   a podcast app does, which is distribute audio.   But then adding on this extra layer,   I think really, really can, allow individual   economic decisions to be surfaced at large.   And I think there's a lot of value in that as well.  

which is also why   I think it's really important for apps   to, to play nicely among themselves.   And this isn't just related to podcasting.   Same with music.   I don't think another closed   platform is is the answer, even if,   a large behemoth is what emerges from the   all of these interactions and the surfacing,   it's possible that would happen.   I really hope   it doesn't really, really hope it doesn't.   But, you know, maybe maybe it will.   I think a large platform probably will emerge.   Much like the long tail.   There's a long tail of podcasting apps,   you know, Spotify and Apple   at this very moment dominate.  

And then the long tail goes out.   and but I do think we're seeing a shift where that   long tail is fattening.   And I probably think there will be other hits   which take over   some of these other ones, because the long tail,   he doesn't   really talk about it in this book,   but the people who stay at   the very top of the tippy top, the most famous,   the most wealthy,   the most attracted, the most, you know,   downloaded the most, whatever.   They don't always stay there.   There's a there is a shifting out   in and out of, of these sorts of things.   So what happens after, after we're connected?  

What happens when we've got these,   technologies, tools, things like   this which we'll do us. So,   when supply and demand are   connected, I believe this is going   to lead to the creation of a of a new market,   and aka new economic activity.   Now, I haven't looked up   the definition of a market,   but I would probably say something along the lines   of like buying and selling of products   or moving things like this.   which and or perhaps not, I don't know.   but I think giving   and receiving   is probably a better term when we're thinking   of this new economic market.  

And, value for value is not purely economical.   I hope you've gotten that.   After listening to the, amount of episodes   that I've put out, reinforcing that,   and need.   There is a place   like Goodreads, for example,   where it's just people sending book   reviews, recommendations, they're putting stuff up,   and there's no economic value being traded.   There's no actual money trading hands,   but there's a lot of value   going into that website and saying,   oh, this person like this book.   I might also enjoyed   that they said this about this one.   Oh, this other person said, this thing   is really interesting   and diving down the rabbit hole.  

And, I think artists   like this apply   will create valuable things for the fans   demand to consume.   That's that's how I just envision this,   this new economic market that is coming up.   So there's six,   six themes of the long tail.   And, I've removed the first two of these, which,   simply state   there are more niche goods   and accessing them as cheaper.   And those are the first two of the three forces.   We talked about them before.   And page 53 reveals what the other four are,   which leads into also why   I think this new economic   activity, this new market will,   get formed once,   once we have better tools and technology.  



[00:20:22] Unknown:

Three simply offering more variety.   However, does not shift demand by itself.   Consumers must be given ways   to find niches that suit   their particular needs and interests.   A range of tools and techniques,   from recommendations to rankings,   are effective at doing this.   These filters can drive demand down the tail   for once.   There's massively expanded variety   in the filters to sort through it.   The demand curve flattens.   There are still hits and niches,   but the hits are   relatively less popular   and the niche is relatively more so.   Five all those niches add up,   although none sell in huge numbers.  

There are so many niche products   that collectively they can compromise   a market rivalling the hits.   Six once all of this is in place,   the natural shape of demand is revealed   on distorted by distribution   bottlenecks, scarcity in information,   and limited choice of shelf space.   What's more,   that shape is far less hit driven   than we have been led to believe.   Instead, it is as diverse as the population itself.  

[00:21:31] Unknown:

He mentioned two things there,   so there was a range of tools   and techniques, from recommendations   to rankings.   So I actually think we already   have the technique down   and that's value for value.   I think the model, the the technique, the the ask.   And I guess you could say   there's still more to be done on this.   How do musicians do the value for value.   Ask how do book writers and authors do that?   How do digital artists do that?   So perhaps the   technique still needs refining,   but I think the overall model,   I think we have that in place.   And what we're really just   lacking at this moment is the tools.  

So the tools for recommendation,   this perhaps might be   something like Pod Role,   where I can recommend other podcasts   that I really enjoy within my own feed.   So if people are like, oh,   this is what the creator of this podcast recommends   to also check out, which is what I do.   I recommend you know, my own shows   as well as podcasting 2.0 and some other ones.   I think the tools for promotion.   So this could be   landing and bio pages for artists.   This could be,   you know, promoting your, your podcast   within the actual apps themselves   and not just doing it in this kind of   advertising way, where the money actually goes   only directly to the, the, the, the page itself.  

So this would be, you know, places like,   Amazon, Facebook,   Instagram, and you could even apply   it to the podcasting   apps themselves, where a bunch of them overcast,   I think podcast or places like this   fountain had a really good write up of   of what was happening with all of them.   And, and you know,   you get your CPMs and stuff, but,   I think the direction giving that directly   to your audience, i.e.   hey, I really think you'd,   you'd enjoy this podcast   and I'm willing to put some money up   that that you would do this.   And fountain   has a really good feature that does this.  

And I know true fans also,   is doing a similar thing.   So I think that tools, would be great tools   for broadcasting your, your activity.   So this being a person   on the actual platform and using activity   streams to being like, okay,   this is exactly everything that what you're doing.   and once again, I'll talk about true   fans here, and I'll talk a little bit   about why I've, I've mentioned true fan   so many times, in this episode,   this is all the nerdy technical stuff   that takes a while to figure out.   And so these   tools that are coming out that they do take time.   And the long tail, I think it's a really great,   imagination or a curve   seeing this,   this graph and going, okay,   this is actually what is happening within   the digital content creation scene.  

And this is, serving some people really well,   but it's not serving a lot of people at all.   And, I've even got some stats   and examples to, to back up this claim of mine.   So let's jump to that now.   So on your screen now you'll see,   it's very simple stats.   I took this from one of my host, buzzsprout.   Or my, my ex host.   I've actually moved over on to pod Home   and it says episode downloads   for the first seven days.   And this is   just of all the podcasts,   I believe in their kind of hosting catalogue,   which is hundreds of thousands. I've got a lot.   So the top 1% of podcasts, they get about 5000   downloads, top 5% is just above 1000,   top 10% is 480, top 25% will be 119 and top 50%.  

They get 30 downloads, 31 downloads in the first   seven days. So   the question that I have of this is,   and we're really diving down into podcasting here   before the long tail is exposed there.   There's a Cut-Off point, usually financially.   And that's what we saw   in all of these previous graphs.   And this Cut-Off point used to be,   the the record store can only hold so many records.   The, supermarket can only hold   so many spaces for toothpaste. The,   you know, the CD store, the distribution   or the bookstore   can only hold so many books,   all of these sorts of things.  

but then when the digital age came around,   we see, okay, they can hold so   much more.   So my my question is,   how many podcasts break   the dynamic ad insertion barrier?   So that's one kind of financial Cut-Off point.   And we're just looking at finances here.   How many the sponsorship   and ad barrier are just at all.   How many break the financial barrier at all.   And so   there's a couple of articles   which I'm going to be referencing here.   And the first of these was,   I've given you the stats there.   And so the top 1% of podcasters of 5000,   per episode,   and there was an article   by costos which says how much   money can podcasters make?  

And if you jump down to the the section   where it says, how much money do   average podcasts make?   And I've got a couple   assumptions there related to to ads,   how many people would   contribute and things like this.   And they say   if you have 5000 downloads per episode,   you'll start to land sponsorship.   You'll be able to charge about $20 CPM for ads.   And so this is kind of that   that little break off point in terms of   pretty much putting having like dynamic   ad insertion and be able to put ads   into your show that it just injected   the sponsors, the ad advertisers,   they need that.  

So this is the top 1% of, of podcasts that,   they'll be about to, to start,   you know,   putting some ads into their shows like that   where it's this kind of impersonal   or at bulk, just bam, bam, bam, chopping them in.   we then go on to another article over here,   which was from Transistor Dolphin,   which says, make money podcasting.   And if you jump down to the bottom here, they   they would talk about how to get advertisers   for a podcast with low downloads.   And I was just saying, you know,   if you find your sponsors,   you can do this. Our podcast   gets about 2600 downloads per episode.  

we're able to attract advertisers organically   because we serve a very specific niche.   And so they're   essentially saying, you know,   if you're in the low   thousands, you can   still make some money through advertising.   It's probably   not going to be this bulk   dynamic ad insertion,   but you could probably   do it through host read ads and through,   you know, a sponsorship of, you know, this,   this company is sponsoring us.   How about the the just breaking the   financial barrier at all.   And so the other   the other things   that they hadn't here would,   you know, affiliate sales   you could do create a course.  

You could also use Patreon support.   And so you have this   direct contribution   back and jumping back over to the costless   article again, they were assuming like,   you know, if   maybe 1% of your audience or 2% of your audience,   that's going to contribute directly.   then then you can make some money from that.   Well, if you've only got 30 listeners,   which is what 50% of podcasts do,   that's, that's like 0.9 people,   you're not breaking the barrier.   So they're I think a good   I think this lines up with the long tail,   which is, you know, 1% of podcasts   are able to   get these deals, I guess, and make money from that.  

Then we jump into, I guess, you know,   the top 5%, maybe being able   to make some money just through   the sponsorships and ads and then the top 50%,   they might be able to make   a little bit of money, but the bottom 50%,   they're not   even direct support contribution from their,   their audience.   The they're not going to be able to to do this.   And so,   I'm arguing, I guess in this,   in this episode   that the, the 1   to 5, 1 to 50% range are just   not getting served adequately   monetarily speaking.   and that the 50 to 100% range that are not served   in the monetary form as well.  

So I was talking about value   and and monetary stuff, but I think,   I think there's this lack of ability   within podcasting apps, within music apps, within,   you know, e-book readers and things like this.   to receive an in-app message.   was frustrating. For example,   in podcasting, now we have it.   We've we've solved that one and it   and it solved a dilemma, for example, for myself.   and same with receiving a payment.   Boom dances.   It happens in the app now.   And I think that's a revelation.   I think that's an amazing thing that's happened   because every barrier that is up.  

So yes, we have Patreon.   but if you're only getting 30 listeners an episode   and trying to convince them   to join up on to a new platform,   add in all of that,   you know, credit card details   and things like this when they're,   you know, you're just adding   extra barrier after barrier to do that.   And so I think, the current lack of ability   to comment on an episode, for example,   will eventually get solved.   And this is   the mythical cross app comments   which may or may not happen one day.   I think they will.   so not only these audience to created connections   are required,   but I think also the created   to create up an audience to audience as well.  

All of these things that we're talking   about of connecting supply and demand.   I believe this stuff is happening.   I think personally it's   going to happen with a monetary   aspect to it as well, so you can   support your favourite musician, your odyssey   digital content creator within the app itself.   And they don't have to   rely on these, these other methods.   and I just think this is a fantastic way   of, of the long tail   being able to get served in that new market,   this new economic activity,   because at the moment then,   then I don't think they're   getting served that that 1 to 50% range.  

I think they're still struggling a lot.   And being able to do this   directly within, from peer to peer,   within the application   or whatever application you're using.   to to do that, I think is a   is a fantastic way of doing that.   Now, there is, a caveat   that I need to add here, which is,   a common misconception of the long tail.   Just because there is a lot of people   creating things, it doesn't mean that   those things are worthy of of getting value back.   So there's a lot of trash in the long tail.   There's a lot of trash in the niches.   there's a lot of trash in that bottom 50%,   probably even in that top 1 to 50%.  

There's a lot of crap in there   which just probably does not deserve getting value.   So just because it's   created doesn't mean it deserves value back.   and which I think once again fits   into the very nicely into this economic model   that I'm creating in my head, which is,   you know, the value for value model.   It's if you're giving something   you want to be giving something   that is worth a value.   And when you're receiving it,   you want to   receive something of value as well.   And so if you as a content   creator just putting out crap,   yeah, you're just going   to get crap in return or nothing in return.  

And that makes sense to me. So   I don't think all of the apps   are serving us properly at the moment.   And I think the the ability to find these   niches to fatten is tail is just ever expanding.   for example, the, there's a show called   beer, Bourbon and Balderdash.   It's a podcast. It's very niche.   You know, they talk about beer,   bourbon, balderdash, and then a theme topic.   And, this is Wes and John,   and I think they outperform   what their numbers would be   because they are on the value for value model   and they are experimenting with these new things.   The door whose music you heard at the start.  

And if you're on the live stream as well,   you would have heard, at the beginning and end.   They also outperform what they do.   So I personally discovered   so many niche podcasts, music,   artists through the value for value world space.   And, I think this is just the way of the future.   So the long tail,   if you never   heard about it before, is, is a great way to,   jump into it and to learn about it.   And, and I think it's,   it's going to be an important concept to,   to think about for the, the coming time.   So roof big, big, section   that let's jump on to some booster   gram lounge   and thanks   some people who have actually helped contribute   to this show and provide some value.  

So Adam Curry, please take it away.   Welcome to the value for Value.   Booster Gram Lounge.   Brilliant.   Thank you so much Adam for that introduction.   There a lot of huge chunk of value being,   shown back from here from,   quite a while ago as well.   So the Boost Gram lounge, for those who don't know,   is where I'm talking about,   you know, I'm I'm firmly in the long tail.   For those who don't know,   this podcast is probably getting in.   I'd say range of like the hundreds of   of downloads per episode about that.   same with my other ones.   Mere mortals, mere mortals. Book reviews.  

I'm very firmly in the top   25%, like just bordering on that 25% range.   So I'm in the thick of the long tail.   and this is where I,   I, you know, I don't have the option.   I wouldn't have done it anyway.   I don't like advertising,   but even if I had the option to,   I wouldn't want to,   but I don't have the option   of doing dynamic ad insertions   because I'm just not large enough.   But that doesn't matter, because I've.   I've found my niche.   I've found the people   who want to contribute back to me.   And they boy stepped up this week bigly.   So jumping in with that bola boost here.  

Bola boost I should say it's Sam Sethi and he says   V5 is going to take time to get into   the consciousness of mass consumers.   Pocket FM just raised 130 million   at a valuation of 750 million for a pay   as you go model like V for V,   I believe it was last week or the week before.   I was talking about   how the pay what you want is very equivalent   to value for value is big wins like this.   That raised consumer awareness   of alternative models. Stick with it.   And that was 50,000 sats using Trufant bola   the equivalent wise.   That's like 55 bucks, Australian.  

And not only is he content with that,   he says another one tree   fence has multiple models to help monetise   creators streams that boost,   but also support the admin dashboard.   Creators can also lock their minimum value   so fans cannot pay less but can pay more.   We have recouped negative sets, VCs   and A   and that stands for value time splits   and a new advertising model   where users are paid to listen to adverts.   The future is here.   It's just unevenly   distributed, just like the long tail.   Another 50,000 sats and using a tree fence.   My God, thank you Sam.  

and the reason I've been   talking about Sam so much is.   Yeah, he gets it.   He really gets it.   and books like this, I'm sure, have influenced his   thinking a lot.   And, we can see some results here.   We have John Paul, and he just says thanks.   He sent ten sets, sent   using tree fence, and then another one.   Great fee for this stuff and others.   ten sets using tree fence.   I have no idea how he found me.   found me, I believe, is   because I was just playing around on the platform,   you know, adding people,   boosting, putting activity there.   And, that sort of activity   is the thing that can drive people   to, to your niche to, to find it out.  

So once again, a little, a little example of that   very minor, very small economic activity.   But it is happening there.   We see Dave Jones also coming in.   He says great topic cover 2112.   Since then, using tree fans down   a lot of people a standard   starting to catch on people. Interesting.   We have Macintosh here   and it says love the thoughts.   It's been a journey for me   over the last two plus years.   More frustrating than exciting really.   But we press on. I feel your Macintosh.   that was 2100 SATs at using fountain,   one of his favourite numbers.  

with his show Satoshi's Plebs.   It's changed name a couple times.   Had to think about that.   And so   that is a Bitcoin podcast and very informational   if you, interested in that, want to know more?   More than I can provide on this podcast for sure.   and yeah, he does the value for value model.   He's been doing it exclusively for,   as he said, two plus years.   And, and it is a struggle at times.   But we press on and it's we're at these   early stages where it's not easy.   It's not easy.   But this is where   the fun stuff is and where   the exciting stuff is really happening.  

And then we have finally Chad F coming in.   So just realised in Bruce's episode   and he sent that out, today, 12:30 a.m.   3333 it sent using fountain as well.   And then you also had the shocker emoji face.   And I did see him live in the chat as well.   So thank you for for joining live chat.   And I really, really do appreciate that.   So much fun.   When I have some people to interact with   and who I know we're, tuning in as well.   So let's jump on to,   I suppose, the latest developments.   I want to try and keep this show snappy ish.   It's, I do like to talk, but   we'll keep it snappy ish.  

And so what are some of the latest developments?   Well, one of the really cool ones actually   coming up once again talking about true Fence   is, this technology getting better and easier.   So I've been saying like,   oh, it's a bit of a grind still.   You know, you still got to work on it.   Things aren't.   You know, I was talking about   the things which will come.   Well the future is here features here.   So big shout out for Sam Sethi   at True Fence for getting the,   Google and Apple Pay ability to acquire sets.   When I first got some Satoshi's   on the Lightning Network and started   boosting podcasters were it was painful.  

Holy damn, it was hard.   And if you're   coming in absolutely fresh, the concept of it.   I can still   see being hard, but you don't have to deal   with the technical things right now   if you got a true fence, if you download the app,   it's a progressive web app.   So to work ever, or you just go to the website   if you get an alibi account   and then you click the button, top up wallet.   It's a one click thing.   Connects to stripe.   I don't know how it works or Google or Apple Pay   and you can acquire sets easily.   And, you know,   a bunch of people did it this week   because Sam said he had it.  

And man, it was quick and easy.   So it still requires a lot of steps.   I guess.   But, you know, Sam himself,   he referenced the   the long tail in last week's   Pod News Weekly, so I know he reads his books and,   I assume he keeps getting value from these podcasts   because he, he keeps boosting and big.   And this is just a quick reckon.   Ask for me here if you have books like,   oh, a list of all the ones I've done here so far.   So we have, The Inevitable by Kevin Kelly.   We have The Long Tail by Chris Anderson.   We had free by Chris Anderson as well.   We had Book Wars by John B Thompson.  

I know I've also read the The Second Curve   by Charles Handy, which Sam recommended to me.   I've got a couple more different books coming up,   and I'm   probably going   to go back to some for some extra concepts   in this in this, season four.   But if you have recommendations   to send through of a book   that you think relates to how technology   is trending and,   and that you think some value for value concepts,   within that book, please let me know.   Send that to me. I would love to read that.   So let's jump on to this section here.   My Why Bitcoin section.  

a lot of what makes the   long tail interesting   is that it it exposes abundance   that was previously capped.   So these these caps   that you would say   that were kind of artificial in a sense.   So like there was it was   there was a physical reason for, you know,   a store can only hold   so many records and things like that.   and for a lot of things in the human world,   this has mostly positive consequences.   So, abundant energy, for example,   when it exposes this abundance,   that was capped.   It's good.   It's, you know,   the most wealthy societies,   the ones   which have the   highest standards of living, the highest,   you know, happiness rates and all the good things   that humans enjoy in the world.  

They're the ones with with the most energy and   there are some trade offs.   For example, we have more waste   in, in some of the developed countries,   in terms of raw volume, in terms   of the actual efficiency,   it's, it's way better here.   and a book that highlights   this is more from less actually,   how growth is not actually   always gained by consuming more, but by   essentially recycling and finding efficiencies. So,   what is interesting, I think an   and worth contrasting with Bitcoin with,   with what we're thinking   about the long tail here with this,   you might go,   okay, well artificial scarcity is silly   because we just learned from the long tail.  

It's better to have,   you know, abundance and be able   to access this abundance.   And so there's a   couple of three things that I had from this one.   One of my life philosophies is   paradox is part of life.   So we want abundant MP3 music.   We still desire that thing.   and we also still desire the very hard   to get expensive lamb into Lamborghinis.   So we can want things that are abundant,   and we can want things   that are not abundant at the same time.   It's not.   It's not just about supply and demand.   It's there are some other   factors that come into it.  

the long tail   isn't a zero sum game, so there's still going   to be room for the hits.   This is the Joe Rogan's is   the Taylor Swift's is the Jake J.K.   Rowling's of the world.   There is still going to be   people drawn into a certain thing,   because it is better,   because it has network effects, because,   it was the first one because whatever reasons,   and I think Bitcoin is just definitely a hit.   There is a long tail of, of cryptocurrencies   and they're, you know, interesting to dive into.   I believe the economic market works things out.   And so if you want to go   play with some of them that's awesome.  

But it's also worth recognising   okay there is a hit and the hits   the cultural phenomenon and the things that   have value.   Not that these others don't have value, but   it certainly has greater value.   and Sam was mentioning in his his message that,   there was this company which had,   what was it called?   It was called ding ding ding ding pocket FM.   And they were essentially using   like, fairground tokens   within the, in their app without any,   real value attached to it.   And I think there's a   there is a good argument to be said for,   especially if you're trying   to create a living from these things,   it's nice to be able to   bring some of that value out of the system,   rather than just all of it staying within the   the pocket FM app. But you know, who knows?  

We'll see.   We'll see what happens to that   earning a lot of,   you know, raising a lot of money   to do things like that.   Interesting, interesting.   The last point I just had here was caps   are a funny thing, and money doesn't work   well when more of it is made exponentially.   which contributes to things like inflation.   it's not the only reason, but,   if everything is getting more efficient over time,   why wouldn't it get cheaper over time as well?   And so, here's a little just thing,   which is kind of interesting.   Bitcoin is,   not deflationary.  

A lot of people say this, but it's disinflationary.   So it actually still is inflating.   It's just inflating at a lower rate.   And this is   on a strictly speaking economical terms.   and part of this way   way of this works is through the halving   which is occurring on the April 20th.   So in 19 days time,   which would be very exciting, very interesting   and yeah, this is part of the reason   why we're a lot of people are using it   within these podcast apps,   within these music apps that are coming out.   And I think more people are just going to get more   and more into it because it,   it's the best of the bunch so far.  

So little interesting little y bitcoin section.   There. Value for value.   How can you help support the show   time, talent and treasure?   It's what I like to talk about   and which is the kind of recognised   standard of of wireframing things.   So time you can share this episode   with a digital content creator.   I would really appreciate that.   I think they're the ones   who need to hear about this first,   so that they can let their audience know, hey,   this is what value for value is,   and this is how it works.   you can also join me live as well.   That's really fun.  

And I did see, Sam streaming   in some sets from true fans as well.   So, you can do this via   a lot of different podcasting apps.   I also go live on YouTube, just,   for the visual aspect to be able to show that.   But I really do appreciate the,   the sets coming in which I get split up with,   my three collaborators as well, who helped provide   voice acting, who helped provide   digital and, you know, art.   The gifts that,   Sven was making as well as music   right at the start and pre and post live stream.   So really appreciate   when you send in those sets,   because a lot of   that is going to other people who help   create the show as well.  

Talent.   anything I can do to make this show better.   What annoys you?   Do you like the the time format?   I don't create chapter, episode art for this.   If you wanted to do that,   I would very much appreciate that.   And I would, you know, I'd be willing to put   you in on a split as well.   if there are ways that you think   that you can help contribute to the show,   which you have a special talent   in, if you think it's something I'm not doing   or could be doing better reach out to me.   I really love to know this.   We already have that.   last time by   it was at the tone record,   I think he was talking about,   wanting to do some end of show,   creations for me.  

And I said, yeah, I'd love to do that.   We'll do that in season five.   So all those sorts of things,   book recommendations already,   asked for that as well.   And the last one treasure three options,   new podcast app.   So if you go to me Immortals   podcast.com/support,   I've got a run through there   of all of the different apps   and also via the Podcast Index website.   Or if you do it directly   to me through the PayPal link down below,   I like to send that on and and help developers   who are also within these, splits as well.   I think next week I'll do an episode   on focusing what value for value music is.  

I've been noticing some really,   just the discussions   that I think I could help clear up   or help contribute   to a one off piece for new people coming in.   I've done this before, but I think this is one   of those ones I've got to keep coming back to.   and especially for   those who don't know how wavelike it's working.   and this also ties in   with, remixing and the new economy   I was talking about earlier.   I want to dive into that a little bit more.   I also will be in Brazil this time next week, so,   please, please bear with me   for any interruptions   if I'm not live at the particular time,   that I normally am,   I might have to change some things around.  

It will be like 9 p.m.   there, I think, when I normally do it.   So yeah, I'll have to see.   I'll have to see.   and this is going to get us onto our last section   here, which is where I play   some very fair value music.   and I do see, Sylvia in the chat or Silva,   putting some bees in. Nice.   Thanks for joining. So we'll,   And value for value music.   So what is that?   It's essentially where,   people put their music up as an RSS   feed with the acknowledgement   that, hey, value for value,   you can use this in their shows.   I just ask that you,   put me in as a split and predominant split,   and, I play the music on my show.  

And if you   boost in,   if you have streaming stats   whilst this song is playing,   most of the stats will go to them.   I put 90% as the split for this.   So we were talking last week about the value   for value concert and some news on that.   It is officially   going to be on Saturday, April 6th at 5:30 p.m.   Central time.   so this will be the, I guess, the second real   big live   value value music show, which I helped to support.   And I sent in, you know, 222,000 sets to   to do that.   So, a fair chunk of money to, to help support,   rebellion is creation on   and for the artists to be able to create   and earn directly from their art,   through this new model, I'm putting my money   where, where my mouth is.  

So last week we played just loud   and he had a song called shrimps were one of them,   one of his songs. It's got many.   And he was a trailblazer in doing this.   And the other, I suppose, like main   main lady who kicked this all off   was Anthony Costello.   And her track   Cherry on Top was the the first one   to reach a million sets, boosting in.   It was the first kind   of big hit in the value for value world space,   if you want to call it that.   And it's a banger of the song.   I loved it as well.   I was, you know, one of those people   contributing to those million sets.  

So I feel it's only fitting for, for her   to play us off before the, the next, one comes at.   And so here is,   cherry on Top by Ainsley Costello I.  

[00:49:52] Unknown:

Guess I'm not.   dance as you guys,   I. Know that you didn't know   that I knew about your little play,   but you had to go and tell.   Everyone.   I might mention that you hadn't won.   But I bet you're wondering why you little knife   doesn't hurt my dog like you thought.   It worked.   Well, thankfully, you did the hard   part for me, and I just think it's good   you put to your song for the mess you made.   But I leave it out.   I won't say   I won't give you the reaction that you want   to share on the top.   You share your song flaws.   I know that if I did, I would sneak away.   To the corner of the room.  

Cause I know that you weren't   used to having it all giving back to you.   And though it might be something to say.   If it's rotten and cry like a little boy.   You lied to everybody.   Don't serve a purpose.   And if I do, I'm still the bigger person.   To your song for the mess you made.   But I leave it out to rot.   Won't fail I won't give you   the reaction that you want to say sorry.   I'm from,   It's your,   Well,   honey, I hope you know that.   I wish you well.   Or maybe I don't, but you know that I love you.   Tell you she the way.   Can't say you didn't handle it with grace.  

Because at the end of the day,   I'm not the one who put the cherry   on top of the mess you made.   But I'll leave it.   Out to rot.   We'll say   I'll give you the reaction that you want to keep.   Let's say you're sorry for the mess you made.   But I'll leave it out to rot.   Don't say I won't give you the reaction   that you want the cherry on top.   It's very   much up.   It's cherry on top.