Ungovernable Misfits

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Welcome to the The Confab, the term derives from "confidential talk", which was commonly used in the Prohibition Era for meetings and conversations that took place in the smoky, rule-breaking speakeasies of that time.

The informal, privacy focused and clandestine nature of Ungovernable Misfits lends itself to these discussions.  So, grab a seat and a stiff drink from the concealed bar, listen and revel in the conversation.

On this episode, Seth For Privacy drops-in to speak with Max

Show Discussion

I. Introduction and Background
   - Explanation of the "Confab" format and the importance of private conversations
   - Acknowledgment of the changing privacy landscape and the need for reasonable voices

II. The State of Bitcoin Privacy
   - Discussion of the loss of Samourai Wallet and the impact on Bitcoin privacy
   - Challenges with using Lightning Network for private transactions

III. The Role of Monero
   - Appreciation for Monero's narrow focus on digital cash and its privacy improvements over time
   - Comparing the strengths and weaknesses of Bitcoin and Monero for privacy

IV. Strategies for Maintaining Privacy
   - Exploring the concept of using Monero as a "layer 2" for Bitcoin
   - Importance of understanding the trade-offs and risks of various privacy techniques

V. Emerging Privacy Solutions
   - Overview of silent payments and the potential of Bolt 12 for Lightning privacy
   - Discussion of Monero's upcoming "full chain membership proofs" upgrade

VI. Practical Considerations and Cautions
   - Advice on using Monero wallets and managing inputs/outputs
   - Warnings about the risks of cross-chain swaps and custodial services

VII. Spending Monero and Finding Merchant Acceptance
   - Recommendations for services like Cake Pay and Coin Cards
   - Importance of in-person purchases to maintain privacy

VIII. Conclusion and Closing Thoughts
   - Appreciation for the guest's honesty and nuanced approach to privacy
   - Encouragement to continue the conversation and collaborate on solutions


IMPORTANT LINKS 

• https://freesamourai.com
• https://p2prights.org/donate.html
• https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68467223/united-states-v-rodriguez/
• https://x.com/frankcorva/status/1795509090946363682

SHOW SPONSORS

FOUNDATION (https://foundationdevices.com/ungovernable)

Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.

As a sovereign computing company, Foundation is the antithesis of today’s tech conglomerates. Returning to cypherpunk principles, they build open source technology that “can’t be evil,”

Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show.

Use code: Ungovernable for $10 off of your purchase


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(00:00:00) INTRO 🏴‍☠️🖕

(00:01:08) BOOSTS ⚡️

(00:03:06) THANK YOU FOUNDATION 🤝

(00:04:40) Welcome to The Confab Seth

(00:10:24) Dipping the Toes Into the Monero Water

(00:12:04) Monero as a Privacy Tool 🛠

(00:17:33) Different Risks for Different Pricks

(00:22:04) Laptop + Start9 = Good 👍 Node Setup

(00:24:39) Storing Wealth In Bitcoin Without Privacy

(00:34:43) Coming Back Around to Lightning

(00:39:51) The 💩 Coin Wallets

(00:42:01) Influencer Infiltration

(00:53:24) Do You See Anything Promising on the Horizon?

(00:56:55) Full Chain Membership Proofs in Monero

(01:05:33) The Issue with Swapping Into Monero

(01:11:14) Spending 💵 Monero: Cake Pay

(01:12:17) Spending 💵 Monero: Coincards

(01:12:52) Spending 💵 Monero: Monerica

(01:13:38) Did I Dox Myself?

(01:17:37) On The Same Page 📖

[00:00:04] Unknown:

Bitcoin   is close to becoming worthless.  

[00:00:16] Unknown:

Now what's the Bitcoin?   Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah.   Oh. The greatest scam in history.   Let's get it.  

[00:00:27] Unknown:

Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. Yeah.   Alright, you ungovernable misfits.   I'm your host, Max.   Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong?   What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?   Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.   Welcome to another confab episode.   This episode is with Seth for privacy.   Most of you will probably be familiar with his work, but for those of you who aren't, you're in for a treat.   I've always respected the way that Seth speaks openly and honestly about his views.  

He cares about privacy more than being in any 1 group,   and he helps people use the tools   to protect their privacy.   I wanna say a big thank you to everyone who boosted the last Confab episode on Fountain and all the other podcasting 2.0   apps.   I'm gonna read a couple of the top boosts.   Rev Hoggle says, privacy tools will change, but the strategies remain.   I've learned so much and deeply grateful.   Fundamentals.   This is where the signal is. Thanks for giving us another round of Urban Hacker. His contributions to the convo is enormous.   Protect Batman.  

8th Mithrandir.   Great episode.   Whirlpool   was the goat.   User 8544585,   Free samurai.   Hashlatet   says Tallow for the win and   hashtag FreeSamurai.   Rod Palmer.   My privacy plan are my 2 fists.   Thanks to everyone who's boosting. I really appreciate it. It helps us keep this show going,   And if anyone has any questions they wanna ask me or Seth after this episode,   you can do that in the boosts.   I also wanna thank all of the lightning   disrespectors. Some of you will not use Podcasting 2.0. You will not use Lightning, but you are sending in pain in boosts.   That is very much appreciated. So thank you to all of you and everyone who's been buying the clothing,   buying the artwork, and sharing this show with friends and family.  

It all really helps.   Finally, I wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices.   Foundation Devices help keep this show running,   and they do things properly.   Everything they do is fully open source.   Their hardware   is absolutely beautiful,   and it is fuckwit resistant.   I use this all the time.   I have no issues with it. I don't manage to break it like everything else. It is piss easy to use.   And that's what you want from your hardware. You don't wanna be worrying,   getting scared,   and making mistakes   with your life savings.   You can use their companion app, Envoy, which makes labeling   very simple.  

You can do backups   that are encrypted, so you keep all of your labels,   or you can use this with Sparrow.   It really is the best hardware out there.   And if you are scared to do this by yourself, you can go to any of the guides out there that make it very simple. They have them all on the website as well. And if even that is too much for you, you can pay an extra $99,   and you can have Bitcoin q and a himself,   hold your hand, and walk you through the process.   Check them out at   foundationdevices.com,   and use the code Ungovernable.   There we go. I think we should be good now. You got me now? Yep. We're good. Nice 1, mate. Yeah. Sorry about the, the mix up. I read back through the message. I was like, what the fuck was I doing here? I must have been high or drunk or tired. I don't know. So apologies.  



[00:04:56] Unknown:

No. You're good. I saw your message, and I was like, I'm so confused. I was like, I'm 90% sure I put this on my calendar. I looked back at the messages, and I was like, yeah. I did did put it on my calendar just, about 30 days off. Yeah. Well, no. I appreciate it, mate. Because it's just Fridays now that I'm out of the Fiat mines, and so I, like, cram all my bits and pieces in there. But it's good to get you on. It's good to finally chat. Like, we've had a few messages back and forth and me asking silly questions, but we've never really had a conversation, have we? Yeah. I don't think so, which is kinda crazy. I hadn't really realized that till you reached out to record this 1 because I just kinda I I don't know. We've we've been connected either directly or through q and a or foundation for so long that I just kinda felt like we we had had a chat, but never really done this. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I was actually just dealing with q just now, setting up a lightning node and bits and pieces, and I just said to him, oh, I'm finally actually doing this. It's like fucking about time,  

[00:05:48] Unknown:

mate.   I know how you put up with him so much. I get paid to put up with him. So you know? Yeah. This is the thing. I think a lot of it comes down to, like, I just can't do basic stuff myself, so I need someone to help. And because he's got fuck all to do because he never does any work for Foundation or anybody else. He's always just sat with nothing else to do, so he's there. So I sort of put up with him so that he has a friend, and I get some help, and it kinda works for both of us. That sounds about right from what I know. Yep.   Well, mate, I don't know if you've seen the change of name of the show,   but it's now the Comfab.  

These 1 on 1 conversations are the conversations   that people would have had back in the times where you had to be hidden away in a bar somewhere,   having a whiskey and talking about things you can't normally with normal people. And it feels like the   Bitcoin and privacy world   is really in that stage now. It's kind of like, at least to me, the fears that we banded about between 1 another a couple of years ago   are kind of starting to   actually be realized,   and   there's good people   locked away   and some real issues. And so I'm really excited to have you on because   you're 1 of the only people   in the privacy space.  

To me, at least, it seems who's   reasonable   doesn't just go along with what everybody else says   and who really   cares about what are actually the best tools, not what's gonna get me a pat on the back and be part of, like, the cool kids group,   what actually works. And if it doesn't work, you're prepared to dig into it. And so you get some flack and you get some pushback, but I've always appreciated that and respected that. So, especially now, I think, is a really good time to have you on the show.  

[00:07:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. It's   a it's a wild time. I feel like   I've always tried to find this middle ground,   kind of the the nuance between the black and white because there is this Mhmm. There's this weird   aspect of the privacy space that is almost overwhelmingly   anti cryptocurrency   completely, which I think is is totally missing the point in what tools we need to achieve human freedom. It's just not gonna happen without   some tools for financial freedom, and you're not gonna get that through your Venmo, your PayPal, your even your physical cash because of just the limitations   of physics. I mean, you can't you can't send that cash to someone in India who's doing a quick job for you. Like, you can send them   Bitcoin. You can send them an arrow. So there's there's so much need there. And then when you look at the inverse side or you look at the, like, the Bitcoin fixes this   side, you you get the inverse where it's that the only thing we need to do is fix the money printer.  

And then suddenly, our lives will all be magically perfect. We'll have citadels.   We'll get to rule over everyone around us, and somehow this will be a a better future. And there's just such a need to be in the middle because there are massive benefits to both embracing privacy tech generally, not just cryptocurrency, but broader privacy tech, And then also embracing   the immense value in cryptocurrencies, specifically cryptocurrencies that allow you to achieve privacy like Bitcoin did, maybe does. We're in this gray area right now.   Monero does. And combining these 2 things are really what bring human freedom. So it's always been where I've tried to strike, but it's getting harder and harder to have tools that can be recommended. Because I I had started recommending Bitcoin   quite widely because of samurai wallet. Like, legitimately,   almost exclusively because of samurai wallet. And that just doesn't happen anymore, so I feel like I'm kind of at a loss here.  



[00:09:38] Unknown:

Yeah. And then I'm kind of the reverse of that where   I've always respected the Monero community. I've always understood its need,   but it's never been personally something that I've used a a lot. Like, I've played around a little bit over the years, but I've always known   samurai wallet. Like, from the very, very   beginning, pretty much,   I was involved in using that, and I was pretty comfortable with it. And when I wasn't a 100% comfortable,   then I'd reach out to Q or others who would help me. And I always felt like, okay.   I understand the need for Monero.  

Certainly, for people who it, like, it really matters if this is private or not. I get it. But it just wasn't something that I really played around with. And now, as you said, now with the samurai wallet   away, and we don't know what's gonna happen,   there's just nothing else that's like it. There's, like, nothing else   that is even close, and I'm realizing how much I took it for granted.   Mhmm. Now I'm starting to dip my toes in and use Monero a little bit more. I must say, like, it's really fucking easy to use. Like, it's quite nice Mhmm. The simplicity   that when I go, I'm gonna send some Monero. I don't have to be like, oh, well, let me jump through this hoop and double check this and make sure that this is done and and go through, like, a checklist of, like, have all these things been done?  

Yes. Okay. Well, I should be alright then. It's just   send, and that's really refreshing. It's really cool. No kidding. That doesn't mean for me it's like, oh, well, I'm all in on Monero now. It's certainly not like I'm using it as a tool.   And it just shows, you know, like, really over the past few years, the only people who have been reasonable with their messaging about what tools to use, really, for me, I might be missing some people, but it's you and Max Tannehill who have always been very clear about the use of   both. Everyone else has been either in Monero camp and you get, like, shum, should have used Monero and all those sort of stuff or, like, you just, like, constantly get the reply, guys. Uh-huh. Or you get, like, the Bitcoin side that will attack them. There's never really, other than you 2, really being that much middle ground. And so as I said, I've respected that. And more and more now, I'm starting to dip my toe in, and it's a great tool. It's better than a lot of the other options that are out there right now.  



[00:12:05] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the that's the part I've always tried to harp on is, like, it doesn't need to be everything.   And that's part of what makes Monero so fantastic is that there's a very clearly defined,   very narrow   focus for what we in the Monero community want Monero to be, and it's digital cash. We don't have these grand plans of it being some   scalable world computer. We're not trying to compete with Ethereum. We're not, at this point, focusing on layer 2 networks even though I do think that there will be a need for those long term, and it's something that I've I've talked about previously.   But this extremely narrow focus in a community that is behind this focus,   really 100%,   has been that it's been able to just continue to iterate and grow really in Bitcoin shadow and become something that's really easy to use, powerful, and private by default. And it hasn't always been that. I mean, it's gotten much better since I first got involved in Monero.  

The privacy has also differed over the years. It's solely been getting better and better as we've we found issues, as we've been able to scale up the the kind of a non set of each   sender by increasing the ring size over the years. There's been ways that the privacy has improved for sure as well, but I think user experience especially has just grown by leaps and bounds as things like Cake Wallet have come out. I mean, I can't remember exactly when they launched, but that was probably 4 or 5 years ago, which brought Monero to iOS, which there was no iOS wallet before that. Things like feather wallet launched for desktop, which is, I think, by far the best desktop wallet for Monero. It's really kind of the the Sparrow wallet for Monero is the way that I view it. And then just as there's been a lot of kind of, like, optimization behind the scenes on the sync process,   with some some people who are just brilliant   coming up with ways to reduce the sync time, to make it faster to sync your wallet, faster to sync a node, upcoming improvements that'll make the a non set of your transaction essentially could be any Monero output in the entire history versus 1 of 16 right now. Mhmm. Just a lot of stuff that's constantly being built on, and that's making it become really the best tool for spending, I think. But it is this weird place where, like, I've always also understood the advantages of Bitcoin and the proven store of value. But there is, I think, kind of this tipping point too, or if if you can't use Bitcoin   for a method of exchange easily, if you can't use it with privacy, people are gonna look elsewhere. Yeah. Maybe not the investors, the,   the people who have all the money, but the people who are actually seeking human freedom,   they're going to start looking elsewhere. And I think we've seen that start to happen in the wake of the samurai wallet indictment because people need tools, and Bitcoin is not serving that need right now. In theory, you can get some of that with lightning,   but that is also very difficult to achieve for a person still. You're fucking too right it is.  



[00:14:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Literally, every Bitcoin monthly is like me and q and a being like, how are we gonna do a workaround   where we can send on lightning, but not receive and not docs ourselves. And what are we gonna do? What what hoops are we gonna jump through? And it's like, yeah, you can do it.   It's possible.   But I think   some people just need to transact privately, and they don't have   loads of time to fuck around and work out workarounds all the time. And, also, like, some people's lives are on the line, and so they're not gonna just, like, try something that's new and untested. It's like,   you know, they're gonna go to something where they know it works. And to me and it will probably annoy maybe you and other people, but I kind of see, for me, Monero being like a layer 2. I can swap into it if I want to. And if I wanna send something privately, I can do that, and I can swap back. I like the store of value for Bitcoin.  

It makes sense to me. I feel comfortable using it and storing it and everything else. So, like, for me, that's that. But, you know, if I need to make it and everything else. So, like, for me, that's that. But, you know, if I need to make private payments now, I'm like, okay. It's either Lightning, and that's not the most simple thing to do right,   or it's Monero.   I've been using this, my suit   recently, which I found really good. It was a bit slow to start with, but I made some adjustments   to how I'm using it. And now it's actually pretty good, pretty quick, and I'm liking that. So, yeah, I kind of just use it like a layer 2. I I don't know whether that's the right way to look at it, but it certainly seems better to me to do that rather than   use some custodial option   where it's like   what was it? We were talk oh, yeah. La last month's, Bitcoin monthly. So me and Kyaw talking about it, and we're saying, you know, we don't really like the idea of these noncustodial   options. They don't seem   to be the   certainly our preference. I said, well, I don't really see the difference between doing that   or using Monero.  

And someone reached out afterwards   and was like, look. You know, you probably should have said that there's   a risk of slippage   where you could put your money from Bitcoin to Monero, and then you have a price drop, and you're at risk there. And it's like, yeah. You are. I understand that.   But you're also   not at risk of complete loss, which you would be if you're not holding your own keys.   So it's kind of like   I I feel like maybe that's not discussed as much as it should be by most people   where they're like, yeah. It'd be fine. You know?   Not your keys, not your coins, but but not with this stuff. This would be alright.  



[00:17:33] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. No. I definitely I definitely think that that's the point that people miss. Is it are you are you willing to potentially   lose a bit of purchasing power or gain a bit of purchasing power? I mean, yes, theoretically, you could lose purchasing power if you store more money in Monero to be able to spend from, But you can also gain it. It's not a guaranteed loss or anything like that. But you're comparing that with, like, let's say, you start to use an an eCash method,   and you're then risking   100%   loss.  

Theoretically, you could have a 0% loss, but you also could very well have a 100% loss. And we've already seen that   with Mutiny Wallet. I'm not sure if people lost funds. Initially, they weren't able to send funds out when their 2 federations had issues. So I'm not sure if people have actually lost funds or just temporarily lost access to their funds in the wake of that, but we've already seen that. And we're, like, the earliest days possible   with Ecash. Theoretically, that was just due to user error, but that's a that's a part of the risk. You're you're not only hoping that you yourself don't lose funds by losing your seed words because you still need those, but then you're also hoping the operator is a an incredibly talented sysadmin who knows what they're doing, who's not gonna screw up with any of the tools they have to run with their DNS, with anything like that, and then the the DNS registrar just rug them of their domains, and people   at least temporarily lost access to their funds. I think, in theory, they will be able to get them out. But that's the trade off. And I I think that this is why and, like, you you talking about Monero as a layer too. I think it's a totally valid way to view it as a Bitcoiner.  

Like, if you're somebody who's already natively in the Bitcoin space, I think that it it makes a reasonable sense because you really can use it like that. And that's a lot of the way that I've been talking about it with people in the wake of the samurai stuff because a lot of people, I think, wanted them to pivot to lightning.   And as you know, in the samurai space, lightning was kind of, like, laughed at and often talked about as being pointless and too hard to use and a science experiment, etcetera. So a lot of people hadn't really dug into it, and when they did, they realized, like, okay, the samurai cuts were actually pretty right in a lot of this, and it's very hard to use if you're trying to use it in a way that doesn't give up sovereignty to some other party.  

[00:19:40] Unknown:

Yeah.   Saying that, though,   this morning, before jumping on the call with you,   within,   like, 45 minutes,   I set up c lightning.   I set up Zeus, connected the 2 of them,   made a bolt 12.   Mhmm. Sent some payments back and forth between me and Q.   Worked flawlessly.   Pretty happy with that. When I compare that to, like,   5 years ago or something,   setting up a Raspberry blitz and doing   shit, basically,   Took me a full weekend of fucking around and and payments not going through and all these problems. And, you know, today,   I did it in 45 minutes, and it works flawlessly.  

So it's got a lot better. I think the problem is it's like there's so many ways to fuck yourself.   Just thinking like, okay.   I'm only going to   send   from there. I'm not gonna receive.   And then if I'm gonna receive, that has to be done in a different way. And then it's just like it's these extra steps that make it for me   worrying because I think people go, oh, if I'm using Lightning, everything is private and secured. I think a lot of people kind of state that,   and it's like, well, half the time, yeah, when you're sending, you're kind of okay, maybe, but not for receiving,   which is kind of like, you know, exchanges go both ways. Yeah. And that I think, thankfully, that is  

[00:21:09] Unknown:

I don't know. I feel like I've been saying this for years, but it's going to get better, and bolt 12 is a part of that, and then it'll be easier now to have that static invoice through bolt 12 and to include things like blended routes into it so that when you're receiving Mhmm. Revealing the actual end node, the actual end channel, except to the direct channel partner that you have,   and then they're not gonna know the course of funds either. So, like, when all of this is wired together properly in the Lightning Network,   the receive side will be much better, but that's really gonna just depend on when the people behind lnd get their act together and decide to ship bolt 12 so that there's interoperability between all the different lightning node software out there. But But that will help a lot on the receive side, and that will make it a lot easier   to use privately, reduce some of that kinda mental friction of figuring out how I'm gonna do these things when I really just wanna be able to send and receive and not worry about that stuff. I'm curious. How are you running your core lighting node? Is it, like, part of, like, Umbrel or something like that? Or  

[00:22:10] Unknown:

No. I'm running start 9, which I'm really happy with, actually. Like, I'm sure there's better ways to do it for people who are really very technical. But for me, I had a pretty decent spec laptop that I bought, the same 1 Q has. Mhmm. We bought at the same time, and my mouse, my trackpad on it is just fucking useless, like unusably shit.   Yikes. It ended up sort of sitting there and not really being used, which is a complete waste of money. And then as soon as start 9 said, okay. We're open sourcing   everything, I was like, okay. That sounds interesting.  

Let's have a play. So I set it up on this laptop. We just have that running.   I can log in   from my other laptop over tool, really simple, really clean interface,   and,   I just use that as my node and now my lightning node. It's fucking bomb proof. And because it was on a more powerful machine,   the full IBD was, like, less than a day.  

[00:23:10] Unknown:

Yeah. Not running on, like, a Raspberry Pi or some of their garbage hardware.  

[00:23:13] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly.  

[00:23:14] Unknown:

Which in the past just caused me so many so many headaches. So Yeah. I really like it. I don't know if you've used it, but it's, I haven't yet. I I feel like I'm stuck in this weird place where I I like the kinda systems administration side. So I usually do it all manual and try to build my own setups, but, that's proven to be just a complete pain in the ass with lightning, and I'm really, really tired of it. So I I think I actually have an old system 76 laptop that I just have sitting around that I was going to sell. But maybe that's a yeah. That's a good idea to turn that into. I have other servers at home, but I don't have any that I can install, like,   a a prebuilt OS on because I have a lot of other stuff. I I host pretty much everything I can for myself and my immediate family. But Nice. A laptop is a fantastic way to host that kind of thing. So I I think I'll probably do that actually. Because that having, like, a built in backup battery is 1 of the best features of using a laptop for hosting stuff at home that most people don't think about.  



[00:24:09] Unknown:

Yeah. It's brilliant. Because on my other nodes, on my, Tanto and other bits, I had to buy, like, a separate backup   thing for if the power goes out and all this kind of stuff. So Mhmm. Yeah. Like you say, with a laptop, you don't have that. And it's just been   flawless.   Everything that I've tried on it works, and that is extremely rare. Like, I do find a way to fuck almost anything up.   Q and a will verify that. So, so, you know, that speaks volumes.  

[00:24:37] Unknown:

Yep. Yeah. I definitely need to definitely need to swing into that. I I am curious. 1 thing you mentioned earlier that I've been trying to kind of gauge   people's views on in the wake of the samurai wallet stuff is do you still view   buying and storing wealth in Bitcoin   as fine even if your   access to privacy for the funds that you purchase   is made more difficult? Like, what's kind of has your view shifted at all on the store value aspect of Bitcoin in the wake of not having access to to fairly easily achievable layer 1 privacy?  

[00:25:10] Unknown:

I don't really fully know the answer to it because I'm in a bit of a privileged position where   almost everything that I have   has already been through Whirlpool.   Mhmm. And, also,   I'm in a not so privileged position where with family and a shitty fiat job, I can never fucking buy any anyway.   So, so I'm I'm   always either flat or selling,   and what I do have has already been through the best tool, and it's been through Whirlpool. So it's kind of like   I may be in a bit of a different position to the average person.   I don't think I have any concerns   about storing my wealth in it,   but I definitely think we're in a worse place than we were. It makes a big difference   not being able to have a tool where you can transact freely and privately. And for people who are buying,   you know, I do worry. I'm like, there are dangers. It's like, obviously, you shouldn't use the KYC stuff. That's obvious, but most people will do it. So they're either gonna be tracked by   the exchanges,   or   they're gonna maybe be buying at some meetup or   something like that. And then you don't really know who you're dealing with unless it's someone you've known for a very long time. Like, I get the feeling   there's quite a lot of spooks and people who are infiltrating   not just Bitcoin Twitter, but also the meetups. Why don't I do them anymore?  



[00:26:40] Unknown:

It's a good safe assumption.   It's the way I operate at, at conferences or meetups. I just assume that there are people who are there for malicious, Yeah. Malicious reasons, unfortunately, and there's been been multiple court cases that have proven that out as well. So it's a good a good reminder. Obviously, not that I'm I'm hiding anything illegal, but I like to know that the people I'm talking to are actually   legitimate and talking about things that they actually care about and not just lying to to try and catch people doing things that the state doesn't like.  

[00:27:09] Unknown:

Exactly. And my my big concern is it's like,   as you rightly said, it's not like you're doing anything illegal Mhmm. And neither am I   today.   But what about retrospectively   when they go back and say,   oh, well, you said this or you thought that. Well, it's illegal to think that. Mhmm. You made this payment   to support this cause. Well, it's illegal to do that. We wanna put you in prison, or we wanna confiscate your funds. And without the tools   to protect yourself,   you know, it's an open ledger. It's kind of like, well,   people are now in this position where   they're always gonna be tracked unless they're really savvy. And there are way you know, obviously, like we said, like, you can swap out to Monero.  

You can do some things with lightning.   There are potentially other things in the works, but it's, like, the go to that I would say to anyone, like, even   literally, like, the week before samurai, the whole thing kicked off. I was having a conversation with a mate who wanted to buy some for cash, and I was like, yeah. All we do and, you know, this is the setup. And then once it goes through Whirlpool, you're good. And, you know, I had I had a kind of, like, idea of this is how we use the thing. Mhmm. And then going forward, you're protected. And now it's like going forward, you're kind of tracked and always probably will be   it's just a bit of a shit situation.  

What's your thoughts on it? I mean, you've all you always had some questions around it, it  

[00:28:31] Unknown:

seems. Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's always been   it's been my biggest concern, and I don't think people talk about this enough when it comes to store value. Like, it it's easy to see the need for privacy when you're spending money. Because when you think about the concept of spending money, like, the the classic example in Bitcoin is, like, I don't wanna go to a coffee shop, buy, I would say, $5 latte, but let's be honest, like, 7, 8, $10 these days.   Buy a $10 latte and   reveal to that person that I own 10 Bitcoin.   Now, obviously, there's easy workarounds for that than above coin control that would at least make it a little bit harder for the just average person to see that info. But that's not gonna stop chain surveillance, etcetera, from from having visibility there. So it's easy on the payment side, I think, for people to grasp, like, I want privacy here. I don't want to be revealing my wealth to the the barista that I buy coffee from. But when you think about the the store of value side, it's really flipped. And I don't think a lot of people think about it. But, like, when I like, I'm in kind of the opposite situation of you is that I I do have some money that I want to spend on buying Bitcoin,   and I had to sell a lot in just some personal stuff, some life change recently. And so I'm trying to buy more, but now in the wake of samurai, I'm trying to figure out, like,   how do I do this without revealing way more information about myself than I want to? Because there's there's not only the payment side, but also, like, let's say I'm buying peer to peer from someone on Bisc.  

Bisc not only has a very clear on chain signature so that anyone who's watching the Bitcoin ledger can see when Bisq trades happen. They can see the amounts clearly. They stand out. So that's obviously a downside. Anyone with a blockchain explorer could see all the bisque purchases in 1 day and could know that 1 of them is mine maybe. But, yeah, they probably wouldn't know the exact 1. But the actual person that I'm buying from,   they're going to obviously know where those funds went because they're the ones who sent the Bitcoin to me through Bisk.   They could easily just start tracking   those funds. And I'm not even talking that they're like a a fed or something, but they're just a a person who maybe they wanna do a $5 wrench attacks, and they realize that Mhmm. Doing this via peer to peer exchanges to to essentially taint funds and find people who have large amounts of Bitcoin is a good way to do that. If they do that today, I don't have really strong protections against that because   I don't have a way to essentially break the link between the money they sent me and the way I use it in the future like I used to. So I feel a little bit lost in how I'm handling that. I know that Q has some some kind of innovative   lightning approaches. Machine.  

Yeah. Sent me all that the other day. Oh, it's fucking brilliant. I'm like, Jesus Christ, mate. What is this? It it doesn't seem as complex as I first thought. I don't wanna dox his approach because I'm not sure if he wants to share it publicly yet, but it seems like an interesting idea. And, like, maybe I'll try that, but it it kinda breaks the story value narrative for me a bit because now I have to put in so much mental   capacity into figuring out, like, how do I not dox my stack to this person in the future? How do I not dox my future payments? And, usually, that's been meaning that I'm swapping these funds into Monero more than I'm not at this point. But it's it's a hard place to be in, and that's where I'm kind of starting to wonder, like, if the private payments aspect of Bitcoin breaks down, does it start to break down the store of value aspect for many people?  

[00:31:49] Unknown:

I think not for many people.   My perception of it is that most people are in that sailor camp.   Fuck privacy.   We don't care. We don't spend this anyway.   Hoddle forever.   This is going on to my fucking   grandkids' grandkids' grandkids' dog or whatever, you know, the things that they all say.   And none of it's usually true,   but regardless, it's like they're not here for private payments. They're not here to use it. They are here   to invest   and sit and wait, and the same with the big players and the same with the ETFs and the same with all that kind of stuff. Yeah. The percentage of people who are sat having the sort of conversations that you and I are having or that we might have with Q or, like, people in the sovereign Bitcoin group or, like, those types of people   is   a tiny, tiny percentage.  

That tiny percentage,   from what I've seen, are also the people with less money. They're not investment bankers. They're not fucking hedge funds. We're people with jobs and families, and we're like, you know, we'll buy a few 100 here and there where we can, and, like, we think it's cool, and we think it's certainly better than the dollar or the pound, which is a disgrace, but it's like we're not the ones with the with the big money. So I don't think, personally, it makes a massive difference because I don't think those people care.   Yeah. But it doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference to me and you.  

I think what I'm hoping for   is   things like bit 47 being used more,   silent payments,   people jumping in in between Monero and Bitcoin,   the use of Lightning,   and these other tools. I'm just hopeful that it becomes used more   and that if you want to,   you can. And I I think it's kind of like you if you want to, you can. Certainly, if you're you,   and even if you're me, you can do it. And so I think that means that, like, if anyone actually is motivated,   they can do it. They can read 1 of the guides out there, and they can get  

[00:33:57] Unknown:

going. Yep. Yeah. I definitely feel that. I think it was   refreshing to see   kind of   a a white pill, a good a good moment yesterday or the day before. I can't remember where we saw both additional silent payments adoption, where blue wallet added silent payment support, and then bolt 12 getting added to Phoenix,   strike talking about bolt 12 about bolt 12. No. Obviously, I don't really give a damn about Strike themselves, but just the fact that they're also adopting Bolt 12 and and putting forth some effort to make it easier for developers to implement It was encouraging because I I think that was another weird thing in the wake of Samurais. It just felt like   there was, like, an initial outrage, and then it just kinda died off, and much of the Bitcoin world just moved on. And everyone was just talking about e cash and just stupid solutions, in my opinion.  

But But it was good to see some some real solutions that help help in the real world and are actually achievable. I'm starting to gain a little bit more steam, and that does give me a little bit a little bit more hope that maybe that stuff will actually come to fruition.   Because especially like, 12, I feel like I've been waiting on for   5 years at this point. I don't know I don't know when it was first first introduced, but it's been a long, long time waiting to see it actually come to fruition. But it does seem like it's it's getting there. And once l and d specifically had support, it should have brought adoption quite quickly, which which helps not only from just the static invoice being easier to share, but also the the blinded routes like we talked about a little bit before, making receiver privacy   much better for the average person even if they don't realize it. And that's really the crux of, like, why I've always looked Monero is I I want people to have privacy even when they don't think about it. And so any technology that makes that happen is a huge win for me. I think silent payments can be that because of the user experience improvement. People will do it just because it's easier to have 1 address and not have to generate new ones, but they'll also gain privacy. And similarly on Bold 12, they use it just because so much easier to share a Bold 12 invoice than, like, type in how many stats I want, get a unique invoice, hope it doesn't expire before the person pays it, all this stupidity with with bolt to 11 invoices. So both are good wins because they're user experience improvements that also bring privacy, which is a a rare combination.  



[00:36:02] Unknown:

Except that they don't fucking work because I misspoke earlier. I said, oh, everything went perfectly. I was like, that's that's actually not true. We sent a couple of,   invoices back and forth, and everything worked. And then we tried with Bolt 12.   I tried sending to queue, failed. He tried sending back to me, failed. We both tried again,   failed.   Were were you both using core lightning, or what were your setups? Yeah. Yeah. No. We're both using core. Odd. Yeah. I just copy whatever he does, to be honest. And I'm like, what do I do? He's like, run core. I'm like, oh, I'll do that. So that's why I'm running.   I'm not sure why that didn't work,   but   if it can work, it's amazing.  

And like you say, if LND   actually implements it, then because I think isn't it like the majority like, 80% of nodes are LND or something crazy like that? Yeah. I've heard, like, 80 to 85%  

[00:36:57] Unknown:

is the the common number, and much of the the mobile lightning wallet world is using LND or using LDK, which I think is, I think, under the hood LND. I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure that it's No. It is. But, yeah,  

[00:37:11] Unknown:

it's like if they can do that and I don't understand why they wouldn't. You would think that it would be a priority, especially after all this time. Like, it's it's such a cool and obvious thing that everyone would want or at least in my eyes is.   But, I mean, in theory,   people could run core until then.   Just setting it up with Zeus was   so simple. Like, it was really simple.  

[00:37:35] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And I I love that use case for Zeus. Evan's been doing fantastic work on making Zeus Zeus so functional as a standalone wallet, which it hadn't been in the past, but also just continuing to make it so much better at controlling your own node. And I actually, like, was just working yesterday on spinning back up some core lightning nodes because I I hadn't run any in a long time because I had a just terrible experience in the past.   I've tried lightning so many times over the years, and it's almost always been Yeah. Extremely painful. The honestly, like, the only time I've used lightning and actually enjoyed it was using Phoenix Wallet, but they technically pulled out of the US. Obviously, I still have access to it. It's just available as an APK because it's open source. I've been trying to switch to alternate solutions so that I wouldn't have to rely on 1 entity that that clearly doesn't want to have to deal with US users. It easily put in IP blocks or other things that would make it more difficult. Obviously, I could work around those, but,   yeah, just trying to find other solutions. But that's been the 1 time where, like, I've used Phoenix and been like, okay. This actually works. I am not giving up custody, but everything I want to work works well.  



[00:38:38] Unknown:

And I'm trying to replicate that again with core lightning, and we'll we'll see how that goes. Phoenix was awesome. Oh, man. No kidding. Yeah. It was really cool. I actually deleted it because I got a bit annoyed. I was like, are you pulling out the US? Like, no 1 I wanna see people fight a bit more, so I just deleted it. But it was really slick. And, you know, for me, especially with the podcast,   we're really leaning in heavily   into all the podcasting 2.0 stuff. Mhmm. Link and Park Rules has been helping massively,   making it so much slicker and that we can interact with the audience and people are boosting. And Nice. With the Bitcoin monthlies, people are asking questions with boosts, and me and Q are going through those. And it's just I really, really like that aspect of the show. And so that's what's pulled me back into lightning again. I'm like,   yeah. It's pretty cool because, you know, this just can't be done on chain. Yeah. That's pulled me back in, so I'm, like, dabbling again. But I agree. Like, I've tried on and off over the years, and usually it gets to a point where   something happens, something goes wrong, and I just go, oh, fuck it. I prefer using on chain anyway. This is stupid. And then I just get rid of it all. You know? Yeah. But I think now it's here to stay. Like, now it now it is a lot better.  

Yeah. You can use all these different things together. I and I think q was saying the other day about k wallet might be bringing lightning in   as well as silent payments,   obviously, as well as Monero.   And I'm looking at that, and I'm going, that's quite cool. That's like a really nice way for someone just to have, like, 1 wallet on their phone and do some really good stuff with it. Like, that's a really cool idea.  

[00:40:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely I definitely agree. And, like, the only downside to me from 4 cake previously, like, as a Bitcoiner was you just couldn't get the privacy that you could get the samurai wallet, but that can't be done anyways. So the the main downside in cake doesn't really exist anymore. They've I mean, it's been fascinating to watch   what essentially would be called shitcoiners by the vast majority of Bitcoiners,   actually be the ones pushing the envelope on silent payments. I mean, they they had a working build before the BIP was even merged in. They had been doing tons of work behind the scenes to optimize the sync process, and   they are the forerunners   in the latest things in Bitcoin privacy, which is silent payment or the latest thing, I should say, which is silent payments, which is is really cool to see. And and like you said, they've they've implemented that. I've been using that for a while. They do have a private beta of lightning out right now.  

Their approach, they're gonna be using the Breeze SDK.   So the same thing that Breeze Wallet uses.   I think some others use Breeze. It's starting to to pick up a lot in adoption because it it greatly simplifies the process for both developers and end users.   It uses green light, which is the block stream,   like, node in the cloud, but where you hold the keys   set up, which is an interesting kind of set of trade offs that, again, helps it just be a little bit easier to use. So once they have that, they already have silent payments. Obviously, they started as a Monero wallet, so they've got they've got Monero down pat. It's a pretty a pretty powerful set of tools available to anyone as well as the in wallet swaps between   using  

[00:41:43] Unknown:

or other exchanges. So you can quickly move money into Oh, they've got that in there as well. Mhmm. Yep. That's interesting.   Yeah. Because I remember StackDuo   used to have that as well. It probably still does. You could do your swaps in there. But, yeah, that's really nice, having all those options that people otherwise just aren't really talking about. As you said, it kind of kind of felt to me   as soon   as that 1st week or 2 had passed, everyone just moved on and Yeah. Moved on to   I'd I wouldn't say that it's pointless,   all this ecash stuff. I think   it's better than   a lot of other custodial lightning options. Like,   it's better than someone just using wallet of satoshi   in many ways. And to be fair, and I said this on the monthly, it's like, I think that's most people.  

Most people who are on stages   talking about Bitcoin   are literally using custodial lightning wallets, and it's an embarrassment. And that's just the state of things.   If eCash is used instead of that, I'm like, that's definitely a step in the right direction.   Yeah. But what's frustrating is there's not that many people talking about, like, genuine real privacy where you can really actually control your Bitcoin and use it how it's supposed to be used. So we've been trying to do more of that and just, like, really lean into it because   I don't know. It, I don't know whether it's,   Diverter was on the show recently, and we're talking about this. It's like,   is it the culture, like, kind of just moving, and it's because   more normie people are coming in, and it's just not a priority?  

Or is it like a push,   a purposeful   infiltration   to steer the conversation a certain way   and have these kind of sailors ideas   become the norm because it doesn't seem like it takes a lot to push people off course. It feels like kind of   5 years ago, I would speak to most Bitcoin people. And if I talk to them for half an hour, I'd very quickly realize, like, all these people, like, aren't particularly happy with the state. They want to be able to control their own lives.   They understand why the money is fucked. They want some privacy,   and they're not gonna   put up with this sort of bullshit. They are gonna push back in any way they can.  

And recently,   if I speak to just an average   Bitcoin person,   I don't really wanna continue the conversation.   And I I don't know   why that is. I don't know what's happened.  

[00:44:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I I mean, I think   I think there's kinda 2 pieces there, Don Pack. I think for, like, the e cash thing and the growing narratives today, I think a lot of that is just someone is going to fill the void left by   the culture of samurai wallet. And, like, as much as I didn't always love the culture of samurai wallet,   they were an extremely   vocal and opinionated and loud for better or worse   contributor to the kind of social discourse in the Bitcoin space and 1 that was heavily centered around the importance of privacy, the importance of self custodial wallets. I mean, all the things that, like, you and I hold dear. So when you lose that, someone's gonna fill that void. Like, knowing the people who are primarily the ones building   eCash, at least, like, knowing Kalle, building cashew,   I know it's not intentional   for any bad reason from him knowing the people behind open sats. I don't think that there's any kind of, like, bad intentions or narratives around why they're funding e cash stuff, but I think a lot of it is honestly just a coping mechanism.  

Bitcoin lost its really only privacy tool overnight, and so the simplest alternative is custodial e cash. And so I think whether consciously or subconsciously, I think there's something of a coping kind of like a cope effect going on where Bitcoiners are going like, well, we we can get some privacy if we sacrifice   our custody.   Let's just go ahead and do that, and that's the easy alternative.   So I think that's I think that's really part of it there.   I I think as to, like, why the average Bitcoiner is not   as aligned as you and I are on kind of the importance of self sovereignty, I think that's just that is a necessary   I don't know if necessary evil is the right term, but maybe just a, an an unavoidable   fallout of the mass adoption,   and I don't think we have mass adoption, but the maybe the critical mass of society's understanding of Bitcoin   that people have been harping on wanting for so long in the Bitcoin space. Where once you once you get past this niche ideological   center   and the community   necessarily grows, you're just you're going to lose that. It's just it it is inevitably going to happen. It happens in in everything. It happens in religion. It happens in society. It happens in culture. It happens in cryptocurrency communities.  

It's, I think, unavoidable.   The main difference is we, as people with platforms, you and I, other people who can put out conversations about this type of stuff can help to try and keep that narrative on course. Because I think, sadly, many of the many of the influencers   realize that the way to make money is appeal to the common and prevailing narrative. And as that narrative slowly shifts away from the ideological center that much of us have or or had when we got into Bitcoin, they shift along with it, and they end up getting into this vicious cycle of degrading the culture around Bitcoin because that's the easiest way to make money. And, I mean, I I feel that pressure. When I'm going to Bitcoin events and realizing that I could have better connections into different organizations in the Bitcoin space. I could have better relationships with Bitcoiners that I respect if I would just go along with prevailing narratives. Oh, yeah. It's it's tempting. Like, it is legitimately   extremely tempting, and I understand why people will give into that either consciously or subconsciously.  

But it it does erode   the culture around Bitcoin over time, and that's a very hard thing to push back on. But I think, thankfully, like, the conversations you have, people like you and Kyu are helping to preserve   the ideology of of why we're here and doing things the right way and not giving in to just the shifting narratives that that happen as the community grows over time. It's very hard to be part of the clique when you  

[00:47:50] Unknown:

say that the ideas that they're invested in financially   are quite shit.  

[00:47:56] Unknown:

Yeah. They don't they don't take that well.  

[00:47:59] Unknown:

You, you find that you're not invited to the yacht parties.   You're not in with the in groups to go for the cool steak dinners and all that kind of stuff. You find you don't get the same sponsors and the same kickbacks and all that kind of stuff. But it's like, if you wanna make money,   there's a million other places   in the fiat world where you can go and earn money.   Why can't you just go and do that and then stick to your principles? Why do you have to come in and then subvert true nature of Bitcoin and, like, bring this bullshit in   just to I think either sometimes it's popularity   or sometimes it's money, but it's like I don't know. I just find   it my list of people who I'm like,   I'd like to go and have a beer with them or, like, they think of Bitcoin the same way that I think of it. It's much smaller than it was even a couple of years ago.  

And I take note like, oh, okay. They just took on that sponsor.   That's interesting. Mhmm. Sometimes people in this space are really stupid, and I go, okay. They're just stupid. They don't understand. Like, I give them a bit of a pass. There's also people who are really smart, and I know they know better.   I don't know. I don't know how you would look at yourself in the mirror   when they go on stage and they say, we're here to change the world. We're here to make the world better for our children.   We're here to make sure that we're not enslaved.   And they talk about these things very passionately   out of 1 side of their mouth, and then out the other,   they're shilling something that they know   Mhmm. Is not the best thing to be doing. It's like,   are you really here for your kids, or are you here for your pockets? You're here for the Rolex. You're here for all the things that you say you don't care about. That's a bit ranty and kind of, like, maybe mean to people, but it's like, when things are this important, and I really think they are, like, the world is not looking great.  

Anyone who does have kids   should be thinking like, Jesus,   it's a lot harder for me than it was for my parents. I really don't want it to be harder for my kids. I really don't want them to have a worse, tougher life than I'm having.   So  

[00:50:05] Unknown:

let's fucking do something about it. Yep. Yeah. I I think it's difficult because it's hard oftentimes to kind of sort people out in the space. Because I think there are many people who do legitimately get into it for the right reasons, but just get corrupted when they realize that there are opportunities in the Bitcoin space that they wouldn't have otherwise. I mean, I I think if you look at, like, many of the the influencers and podcasters,   like, if they were podcasting about some popular thing, like,   pretend for a moment that Bitcoin's not popular, which I don't think it really is popular. But let's just say it's not. It's not popular. If they were podcasting about, like, football or something in the US, there's no career. Like, it's not gonna happen. But because they found a niche, they were able to carve out something here. And then once they get their foot in the door, it just becomes really easy to to sell out here and there to keep the profit flowing and maybe allow you to keep doing the thing that you enjoy, and then it's just a slow correction. And I think that that is possible for all of us. Like, I I I definitely can understand that pressure, and that can happen to anybody when you realize that there's a niche that you have that you wanna try to preserve no matter what. And then I think you also have the people who are just purely charlatans   who come for the   the same reason of realizing that this is a niche space that could easily be captured by someone who   understands   manipulation, who understands   latching onto narratives, who understands putting on the right image. And so you have those people flock in just like you would have in any kind of nascent space because there's easy money to be made at the sense that people are going to be more gullible if you spout the right ideas. And I think that's been   common of many, many, many influencers, podcasters, etcetera, who come into the Bitcoin space kind of out of nowhere and grow rapidly because they just they understand how to manipulate the average Bitcoiner and make themselves seem like they're putting in when it's clear that they're they're just here for for profit. I think, thankfully, that's not the norm. And much of the, like, much of the kind of core set of people working on Bitcoin and advocating for Bitcoin are legitimate and are trying their hardest to stay kind of stay on track, but that does get harder and harder the longer in the space.  



[00:52:10] Unknown:

There's people doing good work, and there's loads of different crossovers that are happening in, like, the privacy in Bitcoin space and, like, making it easier for people who may be on 1 side to come over to the other. So that's good to see, but I guess it's just 1 of those things. It's almost like a fork. It's like you're gonna have your group over here, and no one's gonna tune in to this podcast who's, like, just listening to hope for, like, some sort of moon juice to be like, you're gonna be at a 100 k next week and Yeah. Exactly. That kind of stuff. You know? Or here's the chart that we've drawn on, and, you know, Sailor says this, and the ETF inflows and, like, painting this picture where they can be all excited. Oh, yeah. You know, they're not gonna get that, and I guess that's what brings the ears in. But, also, hopefully, it's like, maybe those people who listen to that kind of nonsense,   after a certain amount of years, they're like,   no 1 knows what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to the financial stuff. Uh-huh. Nobody. There's definitely some people who are smarter than others, and they write really well. And they do know what they're talking about, but they're still   generally wrong. And then so they're like, okay. Well, how do I just use this? And I guess that's kind of where   they come to you or q or, hopefully this show and Mhmm. Handful of others and and start to learn.  

You know, you've got your finger on the button. You're normally a few months or a year or so ahead of what I'm looking at. Is there anything you're looking at now where you're going?   This is really promising.   You've been looking at silent payments. Mhmm. Is there anything else, or is that kind of the main thing for you at the moment that gives you hope? Yeah. I mean, the on the on chain side of Bitcoin, I don't I don't really have anything else too promising, unfortunately.  

[00:53:47] Unknown:

I mean, the   only, like, interesting but not recommended thing that I've been watching is just the the growth in   Wasabi coordinators, which has been fascinating to see because I thought that project would die out just like samurai wallet did, but they they did make it a lot easier to run alternative coordinators.   But that's definitely still not something I would recommend,   and I have been testing it and have had some interesting   experiences   that I won't go into.   But,   that's I mean, that's   it's sad, but I was hoping that someone would jump in with a way to improve   on chain privacy. But it's just it's so freaking hard when there's not a an openness to   making any changes to Bitcoin that we're just kind of stuck where we're at. Because ultimately, someone has to the way that Bitcoin works today, someone kinda has to jump up and   run   a business. They could do it altruistically,   which would make it a little bit more legally tenable, but they have to run infrastructure to help people gain privacy, which is just not a place where you wanna be in when clearly there's a almost global crackdown on Bitcoin privacy happening. So, yeah, I don't I don't have anything major on the on chain side. I mean, silent payments is a good step forward, but it's not it is not a silver bullet. And I think a lot of people, for some reason, when they when they hear the things that I talk about about silent payments, they think, okay. Well, Bitcoin privacy is solved. Let's move on. And it's like, no. Silent payments is this this tiny little piece that's important, especially for very specific use cases like donations,   like social payments,   but it doesn't solve   any of the forward looking privacy in Bitcoin. So we we still need solutions around that. I think we covered the biggest things with lightning. I mean, bolt 12 adoption is the biggest next step and something I've been wanting for a very, very, very long time because the biggest issue in lightning privacy is receiver privacy.  

And bolt 12 coupled with other things that are normally paired with it, like alias SCIDs to hide your channel specifics and then blinded routes to not let the person paying you know where the money is actually going are fantastic forward. So it's it's it has been great to see those finally start to take off, and everyone should keep yelling at Lightning Labs to do bolt 12 first   and stop messing around with stable coins on lightning or whatever the hell they're doing these days.   That would be definitely the biggest thing, I think. We we need that ASAP because if we can get Lightning user experience to a reasonable state, and I think we are very slowly getting there, and it's getting better and better, especially with wallets like Zeus just improving, I feel like, every week. It will be a a powerful tool, and at this point, it's kind of the savior of Bitcoin   but we need that to actually pan out, and we need it to be accessible,   and we need it to be accessible in a way that the US government can't just say,   hey. You shouldn't run a lightning LSP, and then it all dies. Like, it it has to be more resilient than that. So we'll see how that exactly pans out.  

Past that, I think the 1 other thing that I'm keeping an eye on is just there's a big upgrade coming from Monero called full chain membership proofs. And, And, essentially, that's just gonna make the privacy of Monero   even better than it is today and   especially more resistant to targeted attacks by by well motivated attackers. Through that. Yeah.  

[00:56:56] Unknown:

I'll tell you what I think that means, and you can tell me why I'm wrong.   You have this kind of, like, ring signature thing where it's, like, 1 of   5 or 8 or whatever the number is. Are you now saying that it would be 1 of all transactions   in that block?  

[00:57:14] Unknown:

Yeah. So you're you're really close. So the the ring signatures today, your input is 1 of 16 potential inputs, and no 1 except you knows which input is the true spend.   When we introduce full chain membership proofs, which have been we've been working on them for a long time. Some really good friends of mine are the ones actually building it out. But what this will mean is that no longer will it be 1 of 16, which while that's really good plausible deniability, I mean, that's better than, like, a single mix in Whirlpool as far as an an anemone set, It's not perfect.   And, really, the only situation where it's not good enough is if you're being if you're being targeted by a very   motivated attacker. And there's a I think a good example of this is, let's just say, you're a Monero user. You're in North Korea, and you're trying to buy bibles. Now you're a Christian. You're trying to to proselytize. You're trying to Mhmm. To share with people about your faith in North Korea, which you will go to jail or be killed if you're caught doing that, especially with the Bible. So let's say you buy your Monero on a   we'll say North Korean exchange. I'm sure there's not a North Korean exchange that lists Monero, but we'll just say there is. The North Korean government runs the exchange or at least has pressure on the people who run it. You buy your Monero, you withdraw to your own wallet, and then you have a local bible vendor that you go to and you pay with that Simonero that you just bought. You buy a bible. You think that you're good because Monero does have very strong privacy guarantees by default. This specific situation is called an Eve Alice Eve attack.  

Basically,   because of the way that ring signatures work and the fact that the government is on 1 side as the seller of Monero. And then,   for instance, let's say that the government is also acting as an undercover agent, as the bible seller. If they are on both sides of that transaction, the Eve and the Eve on the sides of Alice,   they can very   reasonably guess who you are when you're buying the bible. Even if maybe they don't have a direct link between the sale of the Monero and the sale of the bible, they would have a really reasonable guess. And now if they wait and you buy bibles 10 times and they see 10 times the input that they sent to this 1 person   from the exchange is 1 of the outputs that they get from that person.  

They can guess pretty clearly who you are, and they can perform   not quite deterministic tracing,   basically highly probabilistic tracing of Monero in that very specific scenario. Now that is absolutely a worst case scenario, and that's very rare, but that is a possible attack on Monero today. If that goes away It's good to cover that. Yeah. Sorry. It's No. You're good. It's good to cover these sort of, like,  

[00:59:41] Unknown:

edge cases, though, and not sort of mince around them because   for some people, that kind of stuff is gonna happen. But I do have a question on that. So Yeah. If there's an would you call it Eve something? Eve? Eve, Alice, Eve. Eve, Alice, Eve. So   Eve is on both sides, and it's the US government.   Mhmm. You're Alice. What if when Eve sends to Alice so exchange to Alice,   Alice does 1 hop   to another separate Monero wallet Mhmm. And then buys them. Presumably,   that then breaks the links because then you're 1 of 16 again, so they can't then track that forward, which means that then you could buy your Bibles,   and they wouldn't be able to trace it, or am I missing something?  



[01:00:27] Unknown:

No. You're, again, you're you're you're right on target. So there's there's this idea of churning,   which is it hasn't been very, very heavily researched, so there's not a set number of times you would wanna do that. Because of the way Monero works, you actually don't even have to send to another wallet. You can just send it to yourself within the same wallet because you do have good privacy. It's not gonna be visible that it didn't swap to another wallet. You won't be able to see the address on chain. So that that is the main prevention today is when you receive funds, if you think that you would be targeted, like you are in North Korea buying Bibles, which is about as targeted as you can get Yeah. Yeah. Then you would want to send these funds back to yourself   probably 2 to 5 times   with random timing. You don't want it to be like   let's say you wake up for your day job and you you log on to your computer at 9:30 in the morning every morning. You don't wanna be sending them there to yourself every morning at 9:30 AM because the chances of that happening   randomly, the chances of someone else choosing your output as a decoy at 9:30 AM, Monday through Friday, are just it's just not existed. So then they could guess that you're just churning those funds. You wanna do it with random timing. You wanna do it, like, 2 to 5 times, but it's not a it's not a science at this point.  

And the other obvious downside is that this   floats the chain and that all of those outputs from all of those transactions now have to be stored in perpetuity. So it's not it's not an ideal solution.   The ideal solution is   either make ring sizes   absolutely massive. So right now, their 16 is the the size of each ring signature. You could make them a 128   or a   1024, whatever you want. But when you do that, the size of the transaction   increases,   both the actual size on disk and the time it takes to to verify   and compute that transaction.   So the the solution is to use something called full chain membership proofs,   which is essentially the same concept as how Zcash does   input privacy.  

And there are some differences, but it's easiest to just just kinda compare it to that. And what that means is that when you send after you have full chain membership proofs, all that you're showing on the input side is that your input is valid and is 1 of the outputs on chain. Not necessarily in block, not necessarily that year, but that it is a valid output from some point in the history of Monero. So your anonymity set essentially becomes 1   of I think it's, like, 90, 000, 000 or something at this point in outputs.   And that that happens   just like as always with Monero, that happens by default. You don't have to do anything extra, and it essentially destroys   those targeted attacks. It wouldn't be possible at all because they wouldn't see any information about any of the inputs. Right now, we're basically just hiding in a group of 16. Yeah. No. They wouldn't know when those inputs were sent as they would today. It it it removes any of that input tracing entirely,   and is is doable and in the works right now. So that's that's the next big step. And that that helps in both general surveillance, but it really helps in targeted   scenarios where you think that, like, a nation state is trying to surveil you, that the tyrannical government is trying to to find who you're buying bibles from or something like that. I've noticed even within  

[01:03:33] Unknown:

my SUSE is the only thing I've used at the moment. But I've noticed within there, I can have separate wallets   and label them. So I could have 1 for donations. I can have 1 for whatever. I can have different wallets. So I could until that's implemented, I could rotate between   wallet 1 to wallet 3, whatever.   You wouldn't then necessarily have to have, like, Mysu and then send to cake, and then how. Not that I am buying Bibles in North Korea.   So it's it's not really relevant, but I just like to take it to the extreme.   I could do that. And and what I've noticed is the fees are extremely reasonable, or they have been when I've been using it. I've been like, that's fuck all. Like, it's it doesn't   it's nothing.  

I guess for people who are kind of wanting to make sure they're covered, it wouldn't hurt to at least just do, like, 1 extra send to another wallet or something.  

[01:04:24] Unknown:

Yeah. And and just to clarify that you don't need to send to a different wallet. You can just send it to yourself in the same wallet because because of stealth addresses. There's no there's no way that someone could tell if it's going to the same wallet or a different wallet. There's no visibility on chain. So you can just send it to yourself, and you don't need to worry about sending it to a different 1. The 1   for you, and I do the same thing, like, the only time that I'm more cautious about that or that I think most people should be is if you are, like, posting a public donation address and you're getting donations regularly   because someone could be sending you donations that is actually malicious and that's trying to figure out how you'd use Monero after that. So, like, that's the kind of situation for, like, the common person I think is probably reasonable to just be cautious how you use those outputs.  

And for me, I just I do do that in a separate wallet, just so,   like, random North Korean agent number 3 sending me Monero to my donation address isn't getting visibility into anything else and can't even do the targeted attack because I'm gonna just handle those donation funds separately. I'm not gonna not gonna use them with anything else. Mhmm. We got a separate 1 for our donations, and we've got some real creepers who listen to Ungovernable Mistakes. So,  

[01:05:30] Unknown:

I'll definitely be doing that. I'll definitely be sending out to another wallet. But it's cool. I've, you know, I've been I've been enjoying using it. I've not yet had the   usual pushback from,   the Maxis and all that kind of stuff, so that's been quite nice.   I was expecting it, and it hasn't come. I don't know if that's just because of the listener base of this show or whether it's the sign of the times because   quite a few people who know that I'm not too precious about things and just want people to have freedom and privacy, like, I don't care how they do it, have reached out to me and been like, oh, yeah. This Monero thing, like, is it alright? Like, have you used it? And, like, there's there's definitely an uptick in people who are just, like,   trying it out.  

There are some concerns, if you, don't mind just sort of holding my hand through this. Of course. When using   Trokador   or whatever, a swapping service,   say someone has some Bitcoin,   and then they swap out to Monero as effectively like a way to break that link,   and then they swap that Monero   for some Bitcoin again.   Although they've broken the link   from the Bitcoin that they initially   had,   they are now in a situation   where   someone who they've sent their Bitcoin to and has exchanged it for Monero   now has any details of where that might have come from potentially, could potentially be a way to attack someone. And then when they swap back to   Bitcoin,   they now have Bitcoin, and they don't know where that's come from.  

There could be   an issue   depending on where they send it and use it. Like, if they're now   sending that into,   I don't know, some service like Bitrefill or something like that, Potentially, that could be   some type of blacklisted   Bitcoin or something like that where they're gonna get flagged for it. That could be an issue, or   they might have Bitcoin that they've bought on an exchange.   And then they think, oh, well, I would have put that through Whirlpool, but I can't do that now. So I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll switch that out from an arrow.   Now someone has that Bitcoin, which is completely linked to their identity,   and they go and do something that the state doesn't believe they should do with it, like buying Bibles,   what if they then get a knock at the door and they get thrown in a cage?  

So these are the kind of things that I worry about. And, like, I wanna be careful what I suggest to listeners because I don't want people in that situation.   Have you got any thoughts on that kind of stuff?  

[01:08:04] Unknown:

Absolutely.   Yeah. So this is kind of 1 of the oldest   recommendations by Bitcoiners for using Monero for privacy who don't want to actually use Monero.   And the broadest recommendation I would have is just don't do that. It gives you the veneer of privacy when you actually have none because not only as you as you mentioned does that   exchange service   have a clear link between those things.   They know the Bitcoin that you've sent in, obviously.   They know that they gave you an arrow. They see an arrow coming back in of basically the same exact amount, and they see Bitcoin going out at the same amount. Even if you do this over 2 sessions over tour,   it's pretty trivial for them to know that it's the same person,   unless you do it with random timing, random amounts, you do multiple swaps.  

You could do it if you're if you're, like, a perfect human being and I am not 1 and you do it all perfectly, it could be okay. But for the vast majority of people, they're going to do it in the simplest way possible, which is open up a browser,   send Bitcoin, get Monero, send Monero, get Bitcoin, think that you have privacy,   and end up shooting yourself in the foot because you think you have privacy when you don't actually. I mean, it's not just the exchange that would know that.   If I'm using any sort of basic blockchain surveillance tool,   it's gonna be trivial to see that there was a cross chain swap here and the same person's on the other end. This has this has been functionality in Yeah. Chain surveillance tools for a very long time because it's 1 of the most common methods that criminals use and a very ineffective 1, which is go to centralized exchanger, swap to privacy preserving cryptocurrency, think that you're private, swap back to Bitcoin,   try to sell in centralized exchange, and get get repped.  

It seems private, but it doesn't actually work that way because of the transparency of Bitcoin and, obviously, also because the exchange themselves know that you're likely the same person. So it it's 1 that I definitely wouldn't recommend. It actually   I tweeted about this   earlier this week because   there's a group of people who are essentially doing $5 range attacks on people, and they tried to take their Bitcoin and Ethereum and do exactly this. They tried to swap it through Monero and back to Bitcoin and Ethereum.   And they did it the simplest way possible, which is stupid,   and that they did it in the same browser session from the same IP. So it was clear that they were the same entity no matter what to the centralized exchange, and the government just subpoenaed the centralized exchange.  

But even if not, the way that they did it with the amounts, I think TRM Labs, which is a blockchain surveillance company, traced it all through the swap because it's just it's it's brutally transparent on the Bitcoin side, which makes that that kinda tunnel of Monero   not useful, unfortunately. So the only real way to gain privacy is just not I don't know. It's it's a pain in the ass. Because if you want to keep the Bitcoin, but you want privacy for the Bitcoin, like, I don't really have an answer for you today.   But if you want something to spend, buying Monero in bulk is the better approach. Buy whatever you need for the month and spend from that rather than swapping back and forth. But That makes sense. I think,  

[01:11:03] Unknown:

that way, if you then want some transactional privacy, you swap from the Bitcoin to Monero, then you transact, and you buy whatever good or service you need,   then that works perfectly.   Mhmm. Have you got any advice for people for, you know, like, a voucher service that would take Monero for people who   people who maybe were living on Bitcoin   quite happily and using the tools that were available, and now those tools aren't available,   and they wanna actually spend it. Are there places   like Bitrefill where someone could just go, I'll send in the Monero, and I'll get my whatever voucher to go and buy my groceries.  

[01:11:42] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. There's there's a couple of fantastic tools. So   1 is actually by the Cake Wallet team that we've been talking about kinda throughout this episode called Cake Pay. Okay. And it it has gift cards. I think they even do no KYC debit cards,   at least in the US. I'm not sure how globally accessible that is. Unlikely in the UK. We're so cucked. Probably, unfortunately. Yeah. I think there's it's been hard for a lot of people like that to get into the into the UK.   Yeah. Yeah. Weird. We have a little bit more freedom still for now.   For now for sure is the keyword there. Past that, the biggest 1 and I think kind of like the biggest alternative to Bitrefill is coin cards.  

It's really similar service, gift cards for Bitcoin, Monero, etcetera, but they've accepted Monero for a very long time. And it's been a go to in the Monero community for being able to spend Monero at places that don't accept Monero, that kind of proxy merchant idea, which is really valuable.   So I've I've used them for a long time. They're they're absolutely fantastic.   I know the owner and have talked to him a lot in the past. He's a great dude. So I I also know the people behind Cake Wallet really well. Can highly recommend both. Thank you. So, yeah, both are great services. I think there's some more. I mean, there's a website called I think it's monerica.com.   Put it on America. Let me just double check. Yeah. Monerica.com,   which is kind of a directory service for   merchants that accept Monero.  

And he tries to keep it as kinda up to date and comprehensive as possible for many, many different things, people, merchant shops,   gift card providers, etcetera, that accept Monero. There's lots of good options. You can travel using Monero. There's a good website called Travala that lets you buy flights, hotels Yeah. Yeah. Lots of things using Monero as well. So there's there's really broad acceptance. And I think a lot of people don't realize that, but behind Bitcoin and Ethereum, Monero is by far the most accepted cryptocurrency by merchants above any other cryptocurrency, which is pretty fascinating.  

[01:13:38] Unknown:

1 last question, and then I'll let you go because I I know that, you've got other things to do, and,   I fucked around with the dates and all that kind of stuff. But,   just 1 thing to think about. Yeah. If someone is going to swap into Monero from Bitcoin for a spend, so they say, I need to feed my family. I'd like to buy some gift cards for   whatever grocery store.   So what I'm gonna do is swap into Monero and then immediately buy a gift card.   1 issue I see   would be that someone buys a gift card,   and then they order something online,   which means that now they've docks their personal information.  

So even though they've got the privacy on chain and they've done things correctly by spending with Monero,   there is now a centralized service,   presumably,   that stores their   information,   which then could be a problem.   But if they do it in store,   presumably, that isn't an issue. So, for example, they say, right. Well, I'm gonna buy a voucher for Tesco, which is, like, the biggest 1 here. Like, I'm I'm gonna buy that, and then I'm gonna go in. I'm gonna buy some steak and eggs in Tesco   in person,   then you shouldn't have any links.  

[01:14:52] Unknown:

Is that right? Yeah. I think that's that's a reasonable approach. I mean, it again, it kinda depends on, like,   how private do you feel you need to be. Like, it's easy to to think that okay. Since I know about the need for privacy, I'm just gonna do everything as privately as possible. And and maybe that's a good idea for many people. I think the more private you can be, the better.   But there's also this, like,   concept of, like I mean, here in the US, Amazon, everyone uses Amazon. I have to use Amazon to get access to a lot of stuff because they own the world at this point.   They have to know my home address. There's some ways to work around that. Of course, I could do, like, a PO box and but the problem is with the PO box in the US, the only way to get 1 is giving over your IT anyways. So it would be linked to you no matter what. It gives you a little bit of privacy from the merchant, but not really in the end. So there's this this kind of idea of, like, I have to give up some information to get access to things that I just need having a family.  

The thing that I can get through using something like Monero and gift cards is that I can get financial   from that merchant. I'm not having to give up credit card information, or I'm not having to give up any extra links. I'm not having to reveal to my bank and all the 3rd parties that they're surely selling my info to, how I'm spending my money. So you can still get the financial privacy piece of it without being   holistically private in that entire transaction.   But if you do want to be   as private as possible when dealing with these people, That is I mean, that it is a really good use case, and it's something I've done before. Like, in the US,   we have a big hardware store called Lowe's. And 1 way that I've been able to use Monero is when I'm actually at Lowe's, I'll loosely total up my items before I get to the checkout, and I'll buy a Lowe's gift card with Monero using Cake Pay right there.  

Okay. And then I'll just be able to pay with that. Lowe's learns nothing about me other than that this is a gift card. The merchant that I buy the gift card learns nothing about me. Other than that, I'm a narrow user, but they can't see where the funds come from. And that's an extremely private transaction. Like, I don't I don't have a reason to be hiding my purchases from Lowe's. I just don't want someone to know more about me than they need to know about me for me to   get what I need to get. And that's a really good use case where I can do it in person at a brick and mortar store, and I can gain fantastic   privacy all the way through that transaction   in a way that I couldn't if I had to do something online and give over my name and and address or something like that. So it's all kind of a spectrum, but that is kind of like the the best case scenario. I mean, even better, of course, would be if you can pay directly at Monero, but you can't even pay directly with Bitcoin basically anywhere in the US. So it's definitely not happening with Monero at most places either, unfortunately.  



[01:17:32] Unknown:

Yeah.   I think that they're gonna be these workarounds,   for some time.   Well, listen, mate. I really appreciate your time, and apologies once again for fucking around with the dates and all that kind of stuff. But it's been, it's been really good to chat to you properly. And like I said before, I really appreciate you being honest about the trade offs of things and   not succumbing to the clicks and just trying to be honest with things is is really good to see.  

[01:17:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I think we we need to do this more often. I love the relaxed setting, and I feel like we've been on the same page on so many things over the years, but just I've never really never really connected directly. So I'd love to love to chat more in the future. Really enjoyed this, and I'm I'm grateful for what you're doing. I think there's   there's a dearth of people in the space willing to just   speak their mind and be open and honest about   the tools. Be open and honest about what the stuff is good at, what it's not good at, what it's like to actually use it day to day. And you've always been a real voice of reason in the space and and really 1 of the few Bitcoin podcasts that I ever listened to at this point. So I'm I'm grateful for it. And I I know that we've long had a relationship with you from foundation, and you've been an absolutely fantastic   person from that perspective, a great friend to q. And, yeah, it's just it's really good to have people who are are still on the same page in this space. I'm I'm glad to be able to chat with   with you today and and immensely grateful for all you're doing because I know the work that goes into   trying to do what you're doing on the side of a Fiat job. I've I've done that not to the same scale, but I've done that as well. And it's it's it's really tiring, but it it is also immensely valuable, and you're really of a beacon of light in the space that that not many are. So I'm grateful for you, Max, and and thankful for the time today to chat. I appreciate that, mate. And, yeah, we'll definitely do 1 again. It's been really good. So I'll let you get on with your important stuff for foundation and, and everything else, and we'll chat again soon, mate. Sounds good. Have a good 1, man.  



[01:19:25] Unknown:

Thanks for listening. I really hope you enjoyed that.   If you get value from this show,   please do consider sharing this with friends or family.   It all helps us grow. And if you haven't yet checked out ungovernablemisfits.com,   go and have a look. We've got articles.   We've got podcasts,   clothing,   artwork,   and much more.   If you have any questions about the topics we've discussed   or you have any other topics you'd like us to cover,   you can boost us. You can tweet us.   I think you can nostril us, but you have to do that through q and a because I can't be arsed.   Catch you on the next 1.