Join us for Monero Monthly, your go-to show for a roundup of the latest happenings in the Monero ecosystem. Hosts Max and Seth bring you up to speed on everything from software developments and updates to cutting-edge hardware and emerging businesses.
General
Tari goes live after being in development for eight years
RetoSwap growing like crazy
Cake Wallet v4.28.0 released
General
Tari goes live after being in development for eight years
- Lots of promises, very little functionality today
- Primarily focused on simple L1 transactions with privacy + scaling ATM
- Merge-mined with Monero via p2pool on both the Monero and Tari sides
RetoSwap growing like crazy
- Huge amount of interest in p2p Monero <> crypto and Monero <> fiat trades
+100% month-over-month growth in all time volume, with $40,000,000 RetoSwap recently crossedMore than 6,000 swaps have already been completed, and our mission to make P2P Monero trading private and permissionless is picking up serious momentum.
- Average trade size is ~200 XMR per trade
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1knuw8s/big_retoswap_milestones_zero_fees_our_first/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1kdem7n/retoswap_avg_trade_size_up_600_since_jan/
Cake Wallet v4.28.0 released
- Adds support for Payjoin v2 in Bitcoin, a vital tool for spending privacy!
- Improves Monero subaddress generation, rotating addresses the moment a received transaction is seen in the mempool instead of waiting for 10confs
- Fixes potential wallet corruption when renaming a wallet
- Fixes a common issues with wallet groups splitting apart
- https://github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/releases/tag/v4.28.0
- https://blog.cakewallet.com/bitcoin-privacy-takes-a-leap-forward-cake-wallet-introduces-payjoin-v2/
- https://payjoindevkit.org/2025/03/31/payjoin-probing-attacks/
- Better Tari support
- Automatic donations via Tari merge-mining
- https://monero.observer/schernykh-releases-p2pool-v4.6-tari-merge-mining-donations/
- https://monero.observer/schernykh-releases-p2pool-v4.5/
- https://libreddit.privacydev.net/r/MoneroMining/comments/1kkmm7r/psa_on_p2pool_donations_and_going_forward_with/
- Keeps getting more stable and compatible with the Monero network, but no huge changes!
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[00:00:01]
Unknown:
The business will fall victim to a ransomware attack every last seconds, eleven seconds.
[00:00:07] Unknown:
I am investigator investigator investigator. And I work supporting Our agenda for today, we're gonna start with just the basics of Monero. What it is, what it is, how it works, how it works. Monero is considered a privacy token.
[00:00:32] Unknown:
The world's most private
[00:00:34] Unknown:
privacy. Which means that in high, virtually all transaction details are exchanged. The world's most private
[00:00:41] Unknown:
privacy. It's that time again.
[00:01:14] Unknown:
Yeah. We are, back at it again, finally. I know we talk about how long or short it seems between each episode, almost every episode, but another one that snuck up on me. But a a quieter month this month in the Monero space. So I think we'll have a little bit of a little bit of a quicker tighter rip for y'all. Yeah. A bit of a shorter show. Should we get into the
[00:01:34] Unknown:
general update?
[00:01:35] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. The main one that I I have I guess I have two for for this month's update. The first one is kind of Monero adjacent and is somewhat of a divisive topic within the Monero community. But there is a another cryptocurrency that launched, this month called Tari, t a r I, that has a lot of ties to Monero. So Fluffy Pony, who was one of the original maintainers of Monero and one of the first advocates for Monero, but not the CEO of Monero, despite many claims otherwise by, people in the space. He has been working on this along with a friend of his, Naveen, and a lot of developers for eight years, which is Wow. A very long time. I'll be completely honest and I think far too long for what is currently possible on Tari. But it has been something that's been cooking for a really long time. I remember way back when they initially announced it and had, like, a a beta and some some cool stuff where you could buy swag with test net Tari.
This was, like, seven years ago. I got some cool swag out of it and liked the promise, but then it just kinda never happened. So I think a lot of people in the Mario community assumed it was was dead and never gonna ship, but it has gone live. Just went live, I think, the May. It is it's a a fascinating idea that is not fully fleshed out yet. So Okay. Basically, what it is today is a a memblewimble based layer one cryptocurrency. So it has some good scaling and privacy assurances. Not quite as private as Monero, but much better scaling properties. And they've done some interesting stuff to avoid some of the downsides of memble, like you don't have to have both the sender and receiver online at the same time to make a transaction, which is normally a problem with Bimbo and Wimble that's hard to work around. So they've done some cool stuff. The vast majority of what could make Tari awesome is all coming in the future. And do not ever bank on software updates that are not here yet. So I don't wanna promise that anything will actually happen of what they plan, but they have some cool ideas around NFTs in a privacy preserving way, smart contracts in a privacy preserving way. They have a a layer two that will have some cool functionality as well that's but that's all planned. None of that is possible today. Right now, it's just pretty simple layer one transactions with pretty good privacy and fantastic scaling.
[00:03:52] Unknown:
What's the tie then to Monero? Is it just that Fluffy Pony is involved and he was a sort of face one of the more known faces of Monero? Or is there any technical underpinnings that are from Monero?
[00:04:06] Unknown:
Yeah. So that's a great question. So the the only technical tie, it's not a layer two for Monero or anything like that, which I think is also a common misunderstanding. But the technical tie that does exist is that I think Tari made a really wise decision with how they handle mining. And Target itself is merge mined with Monero via p two pool. And I know I've talked about p two pool a lot on the show already. Mhmm. But that's a a fantastic decentralized pool that allows users to mine and get rewards directly without having the downsides of letting a pool choose what transactions are included. And that all happens automatically for every person who's mining TARI via the the software that they've released. So they have a really slick miner that runs on on any desktop that you have and automatically runs a TARI node in the background, handles p two pool, does all of the complex stuff for you. You You just basically set up a wallet, hit start, and choose how how hard you want to mine, in essence. That's really cool for two reasons. One, because it helps provide much better security for Tari from the get go than it would otherwise have because there's a a clear financial incentive for anyone mining Monero to also mine Tari because there's no actual additional proof of work necessary, but rather you can submit the work you're doing for Monero to Tari and vice versa.
So there's there's a really good incentive for the Monero hash rate to also support Tari, and there's a fantastic incentive now for people who maybe wouldn't have mined Monero before for whatever reason to be contributing their hash rate to Monero. And we've seen this with a a massive jump in the hash rate of p two pool on the Monero network. Mhmm. We're now at something like, I think I think it passed 20% of the network over a giga hash per second now. Wow. Okay. In hash rate on p two pool in Monero, and I think the vast majority of that increase can be attributed to to Atari. So it's it's a really kind of symbiotic approach to mining. I love the concept of merge mining. It's not done often. There are multiple projects that do merge mine with Bitcoin. But that's the only technical tie here is that it is merge mine with Monero, and thus has has some good financial incentives and positives for Monero security as well. If you're mining Monero and you've got x amount of Terahash,
[00:06:13] Unknown:
you are already doing the work. You can basically do the same with this TARI network, and it doesn't mean that you're mining any less Monero. Presumably, more and more people will do that. And then, like you're saying, you get the people coming in from the TARI side
[00:06:27] Unknown:
making Monero more resilient because it has more hash rate. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's really a win win for both. Pretty awesome. If you're already mining on p two pool, the latest two versions, four dot five and four dot six, which we'll touch on a little bit later, those have native TARI support. So if you're just mining Monero but you want to get TARI essentially for free, you can enable it via p two pool. And then if you're running Tari, you don't have to do anything extra. You're already merged mining against Monero as well. The one other call out to make with Tari is it's a a multi proof of work algorithm mining approach.
So right now, I think 50% of the mining rewards go to miners using the Random Acts algorithm, which is Monero's. So that's the merge mined portion of Tari to Monero. And then the other 50% is a GPU friendly algorithm called SHA three. They are changing this, I think, to, like, 33% CPU sub random x, merge mine with nano, 33% SHA three, so GPU friendly, and 33% that's ASIC friendly, if I remember correctly, in an upcoming update. But we can we can touch on that a little bit in a future episode if necessary. But there there is that kind of split. So, like, normally, you're gonna wanna mine on GPU and CPU if you are mining this. Whereas for Monero only, you would only wanna mine on CPU because GPUs are generally quite inefficient. So it's a little bit of a a wrinkle here, but a nice way to use some some spare GPU compute. Although, I will say, like, the mining rewards are tiny right now. Right. Okay. And there's some changes coming alongside to theoretically resolve that with those those algorithm changes. But, yeah, it's an interesting interesting idea. They have some really fantastic documentation that we can link in the show notes and a lot of interesting promises.
But just like always in the crypto space, don't assume that's that what's promised will actually ship. If it does, awesome. If it doesn't, oh, well, definitely not something I would advise investing in or anything like that. But a fascinating project and a really cool security model to merge mine with Monero.
[00:08:23] Unknown:
The crypto industry sort of reminds me of a three year old. I promise I'll do that. You're like, okay. There is a maybe 20% chance that that happens then.
[00:08:32] Unknown:
Mhmm. Yes. We have if you've been in the crypto space for any amount of time and you're taking people's promises seriously, I think you may be, a little gullible because this is this is a lesson I learned very quickly in the ICO era was promises are 99% of the time, never gonna happen. They're great. Yeah. I mean, that's the that's a big one, and I know that a lot of people are kind of interested in that one. Definitely, if you want to learn more about Tari, let us know in the the boost or XMR chats. It's something we can touch on a little bit more in the future and maybe deep dive a little bit into to their technical approach if people are interested, but I didn't wanna spend too much time on it since it's not technically Monero. Yeah. And it has some bad sides to it, like a a significant premine, to the actual, like, tokenomics there. So We don't like that.
Yeah. Yeah. I know. The next big thing for just kinda the general category is I saw that the the folks over at RitoSwap, that's, an implementation of Haveno that we've talked about a bit in the past. Mhmm. Decentralized Bisc Fork, essentially, that's built around Monero instead of built around Bitcoin. They've been just growing like crazy. It's been awesome to see them posting their stats each month and getting some insight into what kind of demand there is for peer to peer Monero trades. I saw that they posted this month that they have hit a lot of milestones. They've been growing a % month over month, every month so far in 2025. They've done $40,000,000 in volume now in the lifetime of Rito swap. That's over 6,000 swaps actually having happened through Rito. And as a reminder, Rito swap is both fiat to Monero and vice versa and crypto to Monero.
So there there's a lot of a lot of swaps on both sides happening. I didn't see specifics on, like, what the split is. I'd be really curious to know how much of that is
[00:10:13] Unknown:
fiat to XMR and how much of that is something like Bitcoin to XMR. I was amazed by the trade sizes as I was reading through your notes. So I was like Yeah. Yeah. That seems much bigger than what I've seen on BISK historically from the Fiat to Bitcoin side. 200 XMR average trade size is that's pretty big. What is that? Like, 6, $60,000?
[00:10:39] Unknown:
Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Something like that now. Maybe a little over that right right at this moment that we're recording. So, yeah, it's pretty it's pretty wild. And one of the things that we didn't touch on last month, because I I caught it too late was that having a or burrito swap specifically actually passed bisque in volume, which is a wild thought to consider. It's not surprising at all when you look at historically how much of the volume on bisque was Bisk was Monero related. Mhmm. And with RitoSwap obviously being much more Monero centric, catering to Monero users, having Fiat to Monero versus just Fiat to Bitcoin.
It was, I think, pretty much in a matter of time until it happened, but it is still pretty crazy to think that something as long standing in the space as BISK has already been passed by something so recent Yeah. As Rideau swap. And it shows that there's there's massive demand for Monero. Like, massive demand for Monero that that is happy to move away from centralized exchanges into decentralized exchanges. That's a pretty it's a pretty awesome, pretty powerful thing to see, and just a good reminder of how unstoppable the on and off ramps like this are. Like, this is no matter what a government or regulator does, there's no way for them to technically prevent something like Rito swap from existing and working Mhmm. Which is pretty awesome. Pretty awesome.
[00:11:50] Unknown:
On the Bitcoin to Monero side, but I'm sure they can fuck with the Fiat to Monero side.
[00:11:57] Unknown:
They I mean, they they can. It's not hard. It's well, it is hard because you essentially have to shut down any way of transferring money between people or enforce some verification of why you're sending money. Like, if I'm sending Zelle to somebody with no note, that there's no way for, for instance, the government to know that that has to do with the Monero swap on Rado swap. There's no direct link or tie there. I mean, there's certainly gonna be some, like, indicators of, hey. This guy has, like, a hundred cell contacts, and he's constantly paying them thousands of dollars. Like, it's probably abnormal compared to the norm, but it'd be very hard to shut down all of the potential ways to actually swap Fiat for Monero.
[00:12:40] Unknown:
I don't think so. I think it's actually really easy. I just don't think that they've like, if I was them, what I would do is I would just sit with a load of fake accounts, do a load of trades, do trades with the people who always have trade offers open, gather all their information, and then send them a letter. Send everyone letters on the same time and shit everyone up, and everyone will stop.
[00:13:04] Unknown:
I don't know. I never thought of that. That's too easy.
[00:13:08] Unknown:
That's always been my issue with BISK. You know, everyone was like, oh, yeah. You know, you can't stop this, and it's the best way, and it's no KYC. And it's like, maybe You don't know who's on the other side, and it's not exactly fucking rocket science to gather all that information and then use it to either scare people or use it as leverage or use it however you want. So it's not KYC free unless it is literally cash, to me anyway, because I always just think, like, you just don't know who is on the other side of it, and it's just too easy. So that's why I think, like, focusing on the Bitcoin to Monero and, like, within the ecosystem or, like, goods or services for cryptocurrency is really what interests me more than, like, these fiat, Bitcoin or Monero rails.
[00:13:56] Unknown:
Yeah. I think the, like, the hard part though is you need to go fiat to crypto at some point. So, like, yeah, you can go fiat to Bitcoin, but if you're doing that on Fisk, you have all the same problems. There doesn't need to be some way you actually get into the crypto ecosystem. Like you said, it certainly could be as a merchant, but it's also very difficult to be a real world merchant and actually be anonymous. Yeah. But, like, thankfully, all of these potential attacks or things, they don't work if there's not a law against this stuff. And there's not a law against this stuff. That's true. There are some exceptions, like, if you're doing massive volume and not reporting it. You could be liable, like, as a as a money transmitter in The US and stuff. But for the most part, there's not specific laws against peer to peer or no KYC swaps.
Yeah. But, obviously, that that can change. Yeah. I don't mean to put a downer on it. It sounds really negative what I'm saying. Pressing me over here, Max. I was having a good week, and I'm just gonna go cry in a corner because there's no hope. There's no hope.
[00:14:53] Unknown:
I just sometimes see these things, and I'm like, yeah. That's easily attackable.
[00:14:57] Unknown:
I always felt like I have to say it even if people like, oh, don't say that. Don't put a downer on it, but I don't know. It's a good call out. Yeah. It's a good call out and a good reminder that even these more hardcore platforms are not foolproof, and there's a lot more to privacy than just using a decentralized thing or just using Tor or just using Monero. Like, that's a it's a piece of the puzzle, but it doesn't solve doesn't solve everything.
[00:15:19] Unknown:
Yeah. But it's good, though. And and that trade volume and the sizes that are going through there is pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was absolutely shocked that the average trade side was 200.
[00:15:30] Unknown:
I know, previously, it was a lot less, but it had jumped seriously over the last three or four months. That's a pretty We're doing something wrong, mate. To me.
[00:15:40] Unknown:
Because you're not just constantly swapping for 200 Monero at a time? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing wrong in my life, but it seems like a lot to me.
[00:15:49] Unknown:
Oh, man. No kidding. No kidding. I'm a part of that $40,000,000 Rito swap volume. I won't say what part, but, you know, I'm part of it. I'm part of it. Significant part of it. My $7 my $7 matter. It would have only been $39,999,993. So, I mean, I pushed it over the threshold there. So yeah. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Even us small guys. On that depressing note, Max, we can, we can transition to the software updates. Even though Max thinks peer to peer exchanges are pointless, you should still you should still avoid KYC. You should still avoid KYC.
[00:16:26] Unknown:
I'm gonna have to get Q to yell at you. He won't. I think he'll agree with me because I've been saying the same thing for seven or eight years. I'm sure he'll be like, oh, yeah. That's just Max beating that same old drum again.
[00:16:39] Unknown:
He always finds the edge cases there, the attacks. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. So onto those offer updates for this month. They are pretty sparse. So it was a quieter month for for Monero generally. I am omitting some of the software updates that technically happened just because, like, I don't know about you, but it's not the most interesting to me to hear about a software update that was released. It's, like, just bug fixes and minor stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So I am omitting some stuff that came out in the Monero space, but definitely a quieter month this month. Mhmm. The first one of those and it is Bitcoin and Monero related, not exclusively Monero, but we launched version four dot 28 of k quality this month, and that's a really, really big one specifically for the Bitcoin space. There is some Monero specific stuff, which I'll touch on first, and then we can we can jump into the the Bitcoin stuff. But on the Monero side, the three main improvements are there's much better sub address generation. So I had noticed when I was using cake a little bit more frequently that we only auto generate new sub addresses when you actually have a transaction get completely confirmed, which in Monero is 10 confirmations before you can spend it. And that made it pretty easy if you are frequently receiving Monero to reuse the same sub address, which, to be clear, for most threat models, is not a problem at all. There's no link on chain between those two transactions, but it could reveal that you're the same entity to two different parties that you maybe don't want to reveal the same entity to. So we improved that behavior so that now as soon as your wallet sees a transaction in the mempool to a sub address, we'll rotate and give you a new sub address right then. So it's much more sensitive, much better protection against some some more severe threat models here.
Okay. And was was, like, a simple change, but one that I think can can have some good some good dividends for people with specific more aggressive threat models. Beyond that, just a couple of major I wanna say major bug fixes, but important bug fixes. There's been some issues with wallet corruption when you rename a wallet. If there's some very specific circumstances with what Android OS you're running specifically and how it handles writing files to disk, You could have a wallet where when you rename it, if all the stars align, your wallet would get corrupted, and you'd have to recreate it from seed, which is obviously a terrible user experience. Yeah. So we we put in a lot of effort with this release to kind of refactor how we do that wallet renaming. So there's much more protected against that, fixes that issue. And it also fixes some other tertiary issues. Like, we had some problems where wallet groups sometimes could disintegrate spontaneously.
Nice. Which, again, doesn't really matter on a technical level, but it's a little bit of a pain in the butt when you have a nice wallet group of all these wallets that share a seed, and then suddenly it it looks like they're all separate wallets. So some good bug fixes there. But by far, the biggest thing in this release and something we've been working on, I think, sent shortly after I joined cake last year is pay join v two for Bitcoin. And this is a really big deal because, finally, PayJoin as a tool is actually user friendly.
It actually is much easier to act as a receiver. It's much easier to to make transactions that use PayJoin, and it's something that I think is gonna really quickly gain traction and adoption in the Bitcoin space. So I was really excited to launch that. We spent a lot of time making sure that the user experience itself was really good, really simple, because the end goal is that page one is enabled by default, and it's used for a lot of your transactions. Ideally, all of them, but obviously until lots of other Bitcoin wallets support page one v two. That'll take some time, but it's a it's a really interesting good step forward for spending privacy in Bitcoin. It is not foolproof, but I think it is a a win for privacy in Bitcoin and something that's that's been fun to kinda lead the way in. This is what you can opt into on BTCPay.
[00:20:22] Unknown:
Right? I can just toggle on and then accept in our store.
[00:20:26] Unknown:
So kind of. Technically, what BTCPay has is Page one v one, which is the older version that relies on communicating directly with the peer that you're building that transaction with. So there's a reason why page one v one never really took off, which is that if two of us using mobile wallets try to pay each other on a page join, but one of us goes offline or switches apps or anything in the middle of that transaction, it just doesn't work. It fails, and the sender the receiver automatically broadcast just a normal Bitcoin transaction with the inputs that you provided as a as a fallback. That happened a lot because it required that synchronous, like, no disconnections, no loss of connection process to be able to work properly. So page one v one on the transactional level, like, how it looks on chain is exact same as page one v two. But what page one v two did is it changed it so that now the two parties work together using a directory server is what it's called, which is basically just it's similar in functionality to a Nosta Relay. Basically, just dumbly stores data. Doesn't know anything about what the data is. All the payloads are encrypted. Doesn't know anything about who is connecting to it or using it because all connections happen through something called oblivious HTTP, which is similar to, like, a one hop tour network. It's a little, it's it's different, but it provides very, very good near perfect network level privacy from the directory server.
And that allows you to just hit receive, get your pay join address, your it's technically a URL that points to where on the directory server the person paying you can look for the payload that you've given. You can go offline. The sender can go offline after they do their part. It can be asynchronous. So now you'd both you don't both have to be online the entire time the transaction happens, which is a it sounds not like, not that big of a deal, but that means that the user experience is infinitely better than it was. And now as a receiver, you can actually be a receiver reliably without having to run BTCPay or run an always online server at your home or something like that.
[00:22:24] Unknown:
I'm sure me and Q talked about this maybe, like, six months ago, but I remember us having some concerns about that and its reliability and everything else. Like, is it just that the BTC Pay server would have to always be online? Because it would be anyway, presumably, and then that wouldn't be a problem.
[00:22:42] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, you could, like, you could continue to use page one v one in BTC pay, and page one v two is backwards compatible. The shift is that no longer do I need to run a server I trust to receive pay join, but instead, I can use any directory server without trusting that directory server and communicate with the person who's paying me as a recipient. So there there is still a server involved, but it no longer needs to be your server, no longer needs to be your wallet hot and online all the time. Mhmm. It shifted to where there's just a central server. I know the word central scares people. But, again, in this case, it's totally trustless, and it has near perfect network level privacy. It's a central server that you use to communicate with the person paying you or that you're paying. It shifts that to where you don't need to trust anybody. And just like a nostril relay or something like that, anyone can run it. Anyone can connect to and use it. So if I wanted to run my own directory server, I could, and I could publish all of mine to payjoin.setforprivacy.com or something like that. It's very decentralized in the possibility of anyone running a server, but no longer does everyone who wants to receive have to run their own trusted server. Instead, they can use a trustless directory server and offload that component so that whenever, like, if you as a receiver are offline, when I try to pay you as a sender, I can still get that payload. I can construct the transaction from my side, sign all of my inputs, and pass it back. And then whenever you come online, your wallet will see that that payload is updated.
You'll grab it. You'll finish signing it, and you'll publish it to the network so that there's no longer any need for both of you to be online or for me as the receiver to run the server myself. I see. So it's like a pre signed transaction, and then you're waiting for the other party
[00:24:21] Unknown:
before it goes. And then so is is the drawback here just that there aren't that many wallets currently using it? Are you saying that BTCPay is currently v one but backwards compatible? Presumably, that means that, like, you couldn't go on now to buy a sticker pack from Ungovernmental Misfits using the v two and that work in the way that you're describing it yet. But if if it was implemented, then in theory, we could make all the payments that come into Ungovernable Misfits pay joins.
[00:24:58] Unknown:
So I think I think you need to think about it a little bit differently. So for a merchant like yourself, there's no real need for v two because you are running a server anyways. So you are always going to be online, and the sender is going to be online in the time it takes to pay you. That's okay, and that will work right now. Like, cake wallet with v two is backwards compatible with v one. So I could pay you on BTC pay right now, and that would probably work reasonably well. It's not perfect, but it would probably work reasonably well as long as I don't have, like, a connection drop in that just that time that I'm building that transaction, signing it with you, which is relatively brief. The shift for me is that now pay join with v two can actually work peer to peer in a pretty seamless way. Whereas before, it basically only worked for the merchant scenario. And because it only ever worked for the merchant scenario, there just was never a budget option because there's not much incentive for wallets to to integrate it. There's not that much merchant adoption. Like, as much as there is a circular economy around Bitcoin, it's, I think, relatively small compared to just people actually sending payments directly to each other's mobile wallets or something like that.
So that it shifts now from where it it was only basically merchants who could support this at best to now any wallet, mobile, desktop, whatever can quite easily support pay join with v two. So it shifts the the model a bit to being something that's much more flexible. Now, obviously, merchants could use v two, and there's some advantages to that, like we we talked about for the sender, especially. But, generally, it's it's an improvement that allows this peer to peer pay join process to actually work reliably and actually be user friendly instead of just the payer to merchant model.
[00:26:40] Unknown:
Now is there anything that when I cover this in proper detail with Q that he's gonna whinge about? Is he gonna have some issues with it, or is he gonna be very happy?
[00:26:49] Unknown:
I think he'll be happy with it generally. I mean, this is stowaway from samurai wallet, but with more user friendly mechanism for making it happen. You don't have to do it over Tor. You don't have to do it over Soroban. It's a little bit more seamless, but it's on chain, the exact same footprint as a stowaway from samurai wallet. So I I think people will be really happy about it, even Q. But I think that the main drawback here is that with the loss of samurai wallet Whirlpool, with the uncertainty around other coin joint tools as to how effective they are, The problem of the history of your UTXOs still exists, and you are necessarily revealing at least one of your UTXOs to the person that you're paying or the person who's paying you. So, obviously, if I'm paying a merchant, I'm gonna have to reveal that UTXO anyways. So there's not really a downside.
But if I'm receiving from someone, I normally wouldn't have to reveal any of my UTXOs to them. But now I actually would have to reveal at least one UTXO to them because I'm contributing one of the inputs to that transaction. Yeah. Yeah. And because it's harder to actually gain privacy to break the links between what happened previously with my UTXOs and what they are now, that could be revealing information about yourself that you don't want to reveal. That's really the only downside there. Potentially, there's also a way that an attacker could basically constantly request new pay join payments from you and try to get you to reveal more than what UTXO.
There's some pretty basic prevention mechanisms to this that are already built in to the page one dev kit and to page one v two specifically. But there's also some improvements that can be made there as well. That's really the only downside to me. Beyond that, it's really a lot of upside and and should, I think, be a default in most Bitcoin wallets when you're transacting on chain in the future. But be wary of that. If you do have specific outputs that you don't want ever revealed to anybody, make sure that you disable them in coin control and cake wallet. Hopefully, this will come to things like Sparrow Wallet and Envoy and others where you also have good coin control functionality. Make sure that you have those coins locked or disabled that you don't want to reveal to a third party. That just makes that a little bit even more necessary to do that than before. But I think that caveat aside, and even that one being more of a, like, high threat level, threat model,
[00:29:08] Unknown:
I I think overall, it's it's a really good change. This may sound like a really stupid and, like, Rube Goldbergy machine thing like a lot of things do, but could you have situations where the inputs are peg outs from channels so that those inputs then don't have obvious history. And then you have multiple inputs on the sender and the receiver side, both without all of the history and somehow have that built in to, like, a user friendly interface, or you have it that it's coming from a Monero swap into Bitcoin as the other option. Because as you said, like, the issue comes that you don't have that way to break the links like you did with Whirlpool anymore unless you're doing something with Monero or with Lightning.
Is there some way to, like, have those as the inputs?
[00:30:03] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's definitely technically possible. I will say this is probably, like, a maybe the next step for pay join is to give a lot more, like, more advanced ways to actually contribute to it. But there's there's actually a lot of specific advantages for those types of scenarios. So, like, if you think about if multiple Phoenix users wanted to splice out funds on chain at the same time, and they worked together to create a page one transaction that handled all the payments that they needed, they're essentially doing a batch transaction. They're saving on fees. Yeah. And they're improving their privacy.
The same thing is true of any instant exchange or centralized exchange handling withdrawals. And this is one of the things that, like, I think the bull Bitcoin guys are doing really, really well is their the reason they implemented page one v two kind of haphazardly right now, but they're improving it. You actually wouldn't be able to send a pay join between cake and Bull Bitcoin at the moment, but I know that they're they're fixing that soon. Their long term goal is that all withdrawals from Bull Bitcoin are happening via pay joins because it actually provides them fee savings, and it provides better privacy. So there are gonna be a lot of scenarios where you're able to contribute you're able to participate in a pay join without using just your, like, regular on chain wallet funds. Be that Yeah. Funds from a centralized exchange you're withdrawing, be that some sort of, like, a community splicing thing.
I think so peach Bitcoin actually does something like this right now. They're not using Pedro in the spec as far as I understand, but they have it's called, like, the hug or something like that. I I can't remember exactly what the term that they use is, but they're kind of doing a similar concept right now where you can opt into participating in batched transactions when you need to actually receive funds for a a trade in peach Bitcoin. And it's the same idea. Like, anytime multiple people need to make a transaction at the same time, previously, that was not possible to do because there was no clear mechanism to coordinate signing that transaction between multiple parties. But that's something that page join can be actually fantastic for. So that is kind of, I think, the next step for page join. And multi party page join more than just sender to receiver is what's being worked on right now by the the page join guys as kind of the next step there.
[00:32:19] Unknown:
Interesting. It's not perfect, but the more people who use these type of tools, the more the waters are muddied and everything is kind of questionable. What's the input? What's the output? What's the change? Like, it just it just makes these assumptions harder to make. The more incentive there is for more normal non privacy focused Bitcoin is like fee savings
[00:32:43] Unknown:
and the more easy it is to do. That's where we start winning, I think. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's one of the best things about PayJoin, just like I think silent payments is another good example of this is it really should be a user experience improvement or a fee improvement or something like that to provide some other incentive. Like, the incentive of just gaining privacy is not enough for most people, unfortunately. You add on other things, other incentives. You can get entities like Coinbase doing pay joins just because they wanna save money versus caring about their users' privacy. Obviously, I'm not saying necessarily that Coinbase would adopt this. Probably not, unfortunately.
But there's there's other incentives that would drive this that improve the privacy of everyone on Bitcoin. Because some of the beautiful things with PayJoin is that the on chain footprint looks like a regular the case of a an exchange withdrawal, it would look like an exchange consolidation. It wouldn't be clear where the funds are going. And then in a regular, like, sender to receive our payment, it looks like a standard common input ownership transaction. So everyone who makes those types of transactions also benefits from plausible deniability if pay join gains very high adoption because it won't be clear to a chain surveillance agent whether or not this transaction is really what it looks like or if it's actually a pay join. There's no way to tell or distinguish on chain. So it really can have a a big snowball effect on Bitcoin privacy in some very specific ways, but is not a silver bullet for all of Bitcoin's privacy woes, just to be clear. I like it. Very good. Yeah. It's gonna be a fun one. I'm definitely excited to see it grow, and I think it's a pretty good experience right now. So I'd I'd love to hear people's thoughts on on how that works. But, enough enough Bitcoin stuff.
[00:34:18] Unknown:
Enough Bitcoin stuff. Good Monero stuff. I have a good Monero stuff question that I had from the last one. You know, we were talking last time, and I was saying about importing a seed from BIP 85 for a Bitcoin wallet into Cake Wallet so that you you have that backup. And then after we did the call, I was like, can I create as many Monero wallets as I want within Cake Wallet and have them separated out? Is there a sort of function like BIP 85 within Monero, or can I just do that from Bitcoin and use that seed phrase as a Monero wallet?
[00:34:57] Unknown:
So the answer is there's definitely not a BIP 85 equivalent in Monero. So you couldn't do that natively with, like, a policy or a 25 word Monero seed. Mhmm. But like we talked about last week, because you can create Monero wallets from a standard BIP 39 seed phrase, 12 or 24 word, You can do this. I will say the limitation right now within cake wallet is you can only have one wallet of each currency type per seed phrase. Well, I will correct that. You can only have one wallet of each currency type per seed phrase unless you use pass phrases for obvious reasons. Because if you create multiple wallets with the same seed phrase, they'll just do the same wallet. They're not actually different.
But if you did it with pass phrases, you could do that today. I think probably the more useful thing would be just to generate more BIP 39 seeds using BIP 85 Yeah. To use for separate Monero wallets. Or what is more commonly useful to people is just use accounts within the same Monero wallet. Because Monero does have account functionality just like Bitcoin. It's not used frequently because there's less reason to use it in Monero than in Bitcoin. But that's generally gonna be the best solution for most people is you can have a separate account for your public donation address or for KYC, non KYC, whatever. You can do the the same kind of cool things you can do with Bitcoin. You can do with Monero accounts.
[00:36:20] Unknown:
Okay. So you could have a current Monero wallet that you've created the seed on the cake and then add a second Monero wallet. You can have multiple wallets on the same currency within there. It just can't be with the same seed unless you're using a passphrase. That makes sense. Yeah. Absolutely. Like like, I have my
[00:36:42] Unknown:
I shouldn't do this. I don't know why I have separate wallets with separate seed phrases, but I have a separate donation. Monero wallet has its own seed phrase versus the one that I use for personal stuff because despite Monero's really good privacy, I still don't really want to make myself vulnerable to dusting attacks and stuff like that. So Yeah. So I separate them that way. I should really just use accounts. But I do do that. It's definitely possible, but, generally, most people should lean on accounts rather than separate wallets unless they have a very specific reason for separate wallets.
[00:37:10] Unknown:
Okay. Cool.
[00:37:12] Unknown:
So next up on the software side, we touched on this a little bit more, so I'll be brief here. But p two pool version four dot five and four dot six were released. The main things in here are Tari support and some improvements to Tari support in v four dot six. So you can you can easily merge mine. The other really cool, I think, novel thing here is there's no native donation mechanism in p two pool up until now. So if you were using p two pool, nothing was going to the person who created it and has spent who knows how much time building the concept of p two pool, building the software around p two pool. And he came up with a really good idea where if a user doesn't choose to merge my intari themselves, it will automatically merge my intari and send the rewards to the creator of the p2pool software, which Okay. I think could rub people the wrong way until they really think through it. But all that means is you don't lose anything. You're not losing any hash rate. You're not pointing some of your hash rate to a donation server every x amount of seconds or something. It's just instead of wasting that merge mining potential, that now goes to reward the developer who's poured so much time and effort into this. So I think it's a really fascinating way of, like, giving him giving back to him if you don't care about Tari, but without actually sacrificing any of your Monero rewards or anything. So I I think it's really the best of both worlds, and I think a a cool way to build out donations that's different than
[00:38:32] Unknown:
normal. Yeah. That's fair enough. I like that. And then last on the software side,
[00:38:37] Unknown:
is just a reminder that there's a really cool project called Cup Rate. That's a a new implementation of Monero written from the ground up in Rust. They released version zero dot zero dot three. Nothing, like, major changed. Just a lot of bug fixes and compatibility improvements with the rest of the Monero software world. But a really cool thing to exist, I think a lot more useful than something like knots in the Bitcoin world, which is just a code fork with a few changes and one maintainer and lots of dangerous things. But instead, this has multiple contributors and maintainers. It's written in a completely different language, so it has a lot of benefits to the rest of the Monero ecosystem.
It's much faster to sync at least right now, and has some cool advantages. So I I am definitely really glad that that has progressed, continued to progress, And, hopefully, we'll get some some good future parity and be something where people can can run it instead of Monero d if they so choose in the future. It is still definitely very beta. But if you wanna try it out, you you definitely can, and I've had some good experience with it. So that's been been cool to see that continue growing. Yeah. That's cool. Is there something in the Monero world where cup means something? Because you've got, like, cup rate, and then I'm sure you have, like, cupcake or something, which is like a kind of like a hardware
[00:39:50] Unknown:
wallet solution or some sort of thing like that.
[00:39:54] Unknown:
There is not that I know of. It's just a coincidence, I think, that there's cupcake. I don't I have no clue why Cuprate is named Cuprate. So that would be the that'd be a good question. Maybe we can get one of their devs on sometime and check through kinda the background of the project and why it's named that because I I don't think so. The the only, like, real big naming thing in the Monero space is using Esperanto for everything. Yeah. Which I think is equal parts cool and really dumb because no one speaks Esperanto. So, like, when I try to say Monero, which is the other awesome Android wallet for Monero, It took me seven years to learn how to actually pronounce it properly because I don't speak Esperanto, but there is some cool some cool stuff that comes out of that. But, yeah, I think just a coincidence that they're named the same. The reason cupcake is named cupcake is because we wanted it to be, in some ways, like, feeling like it's part of the the cake quality ecosystem. So trying to keep it keep it on theme, but there's nothing significant about cup, just cupcake.
[00:40:48] Unknown:
Okay. It's very childish, but it always makes me laugh when I hear that. I don't know if cupcake means the same thing in America as it does in The UK. Does it mean something other than the the dessert that you eat? Yeah. In England, at least, like, a cupcake is, like, a really childish thing that people do at school where they, like, fart in their hand, and then they'd put their hand over someone's nose. They're, like, cupping the fart and putting it on
[00:41:11] Unknown:
as they do it, they'd go cupcake like that. Maybe I just didn't have as fun of a childhood as you. Such a rich person. American thing, but I've I've never heard of it. Oh, we're gonna have to change the wallet name now.
[00:41:24] Unknown:
Yeah. It's probably just an English thing because it's absolutely disgraceful.
[00:41:28] Unknown:
If you also know what a cupcake is, let us know in the comments. I know what a cupcheck is. I don't know. I've never heard of a cupcake of those. What's a cupcheck? Know what a cupcheck is? No. It's another Travis thing where guys would tap each other in the balls as a cup check, and I don't know. There's no there's there's no real reason for it, but that was definitely something that was a a terror of my childhood. That's a a Melvin in The UK. We had, like, someone would, like, flick you in the bollocks. Yeah. Melvin. You'll always have the weirdest name for things. A Melvin. Like, what did what did Melvin do to deserve that being named after him? Like I guess maybe it happened to Melvin first, and then it was named after him or something.
[00:42:06] Unknown:
Who knows?
[00:42:09] Unknown:
On that extreme tangent. Yeah. Yeah. That's all I've got for the, the software and general updates, but I know we got some some XMR chats and boost to jump into. We got quite a few, I think.
[00:42:19] Unknown:
Let's have a look. What do we got? Web wipe with 0.043 XMR. We're hosting a privacy meetup in Charlotte, North Carolina on July from six to 10PM at Great Wagon Road Distilling. Topics include privacy tools for XMR and BTC, cake wallet, Ashigaru presentation with a little salute, UGM, and Dojo Bay, NIMVPN, Simplex, and more. All are welcome. Well, that sounds like a fucking excellent meetup.
[00:42:54] Unknown:
It does. I know they also did one they did one at PubKey recently. I wasn't able to attend, unfortunately, but, it sounded like it was gonna be a good one. So seems like they're doing good work. Very nice. Pub key one, they used our presentation as well.
[00:43:07] Unknown:
Very good. I was saying this to queue the other day, like, the difference because there's a meetup called Bitcoin Derby that often sends in boosts to us. They do some really good meetups where it's all, like, privacy focused and running nodes and all this kind of stuff. And then I was saying to him, like, depending on where you are geographically, you can either go there and learn about the stuff that really matters, or you can end up in a absolute shit fest of people, like, wanking off over sailor and talking about their ETFs and price stuff and everything. And it's just like potluck which town you live in. So,
[00:43:41] Unknown:
definitely, Charlotte, North Carolina sounds like a good one. I can say they do have a great meetup scene there. The Bitcoin meetup in Charlotte is pretty legendary. I know people travel from quite a ways around to go to it, so definitely would recommend.
[00:43:53] Unknown:
Nice. Doctor Zivago with zero point zero one five XMR. If you're not familiar with simplified privacy, I think you should reach out and introduce yourselves. Be cons I think it's probably maybe consider an episode with them. Shadow Rebel, their podcast guy, PS, maximalists are gay. Do you know these guys? Simplified privacy?
[00:44:20] Unknown:
I have heard of them, but I don't know don't know what shot that off my head. Definitely something I'll have to look into, though. Yeah. We'll have a look. I have to say I haven't heard, but,
[00:44:29] Unknown:
if you're listening, simplified privacy or shadow rebel. Sounds good. Jimmy Spedden with zero point zero one XMR. Bitcoin normie clowns crying at barn shitting on lightning. Funny. Hashtag free samurai. Oh god. We really got it in the neck there. So many messages of people really upset with us shitting on lightning. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I didn't I didn't follow that saga. I don't know how really. Like, it's hard to read in text, isn't it? But, Yeah. Yeah. People are quite upset. I think the thing is people are upset. It's like, oh, well, you're fucking getting boost with lightning, so it works enough to get boost. It's like, yeah, it does because it's custodial.
Yeah. Because I pay for my Albi thing, it works. Or because it's on fountain, it works. It's queues ones are the ones that always drop because he actually self hosts. So, yeah.
[00:45:23] Unknown:
That's why we were shitting on that. Yeah. You definitely will get I've I've noticed if you put out some lightning hate, you'll get a lot of people agreeing. You'll get a lot of people denying it, and then you find out they're just using Wallet of Satoshi or something. Yeah. And then you'll get a bunch of Bitcoin cashers or others. Yeah. That that works seamlessly, and then I inevitably ask for wallet are you using. It's 99% of the time a custodial wallet. And I'm like, yeah. Duh. You're you're paying from a custodial wallet to a custodial wallet. Databases work. Like, that's that's not surprising here. I have to say Wallet of Satoshi is fucking seamless. Like, if you wanted to show someone Bitcoin
[00:45:55] Unknown:
Bitcoin and you wanted it to look, like, really good and slick and easy and just work,
[00:46:00] Unknown:
it's a pretty nice experience. It has because it's not Bitcoin.
[00:46:03] Unknown:
Yeah. I know. But I'm just saying, if you wanted to present it as such, people will go, wow. That's fucking seamless.
[00:46:11] Unknown:
I am curious. They're they're supposedly doing a self custodial wallet. I am really curious what they're gonna do for that. So that'll be an interesting thing to watch.
[00:46:20] Unknown:
I saw that. I mean, they've got the user base, so I don't know how they would go about doing it, but we shall see. We shall see. Jimmy Spedden with I know. Read that one already. Schrodinger with zero point zero one four XMR. The latest confab with a guy from the rage was great. Good to see some sane people are still out there and covering the important topics. Hashtag free samurai. Yeah. That was a good one. I really enjoyed that. Doctor Zavargo with zero point zero one five XMR. The rage should figure out a mailing address for samurai and tornado cash devs. Donations work, but Satan worshiping fucks kill morale first. A handwritten postcard goes a long way in a war for freedom.
How do you know I'm doctor Zavargo? Question mark. No keys. No proof. Good point.
[00:47:17] Unknown:
So he's suggesting actually, like, mailing them postcards. Is that right? I think so. Yeah. I know that that can be definitely a a good thing. I don't I don't know anything about a mailing address, but surely there is one. I mean, neither of them are actually in jail, but I don't know if their, like, house arrest address is published or not. I would assume probably not, for obvious reasons. Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. Maybe there could be, like,
[00:47:41] Unknown:
people could send the postcard somewhere that we have them scanned and put up somewhere so they can freely read them without doxing themselves or something like that, just as, like, a little I don't know. That's a good idea. Booster. Yeah. We'd happily do that. We can post them on on government misfits. So the rage do listen to the show. So if you guys are listening and you wanna collaborate there, we'll we'll happily do something and try and, put a pep back in their step. Barn miner. Oh god. 0.03XMR. Motherfucker.
Fixed BTC pay server. Their update cucked Monero payments. Required another update today because some bug in NBXplorer fixed that but baulked Monero again. Mother bitch. Not sure who breaks more, me or Max. Thank god for that Canadian hipster Jordan. Do you know what? We're probably on the same, same level here, Barn, because mine's also fucked. I had Black Coffee help me with BTC pay, I don't know, a week ago making some changes. Then it fell over again. Then I was on the phone to Jordan, that Canadian hipster, whinging about it. I was like, like, fucking hell. It's always lightning or BTC pay server. It is bane of my life whinging on. And he was like, oh, what is the problem? I was like, some fucking n b explorer bullshit. I need to read up and try and fix it. And then he was like, I know what it is. I've just fixed it for bahn. And I was like,
[00:49:23] Unknown:
okay. Right. To make you feel a little bit better, this wasn't just y'all, and this was every instance of b d c pay server that exists. Oh, good point. So yeah. Okay. Unfortunately. Yeah. There was a bug in in the explorer with how they had implemented Segwit, and some unknown miner changed the version number in a very weird way in the block that they mined. And it, completely borked in the explorer. Got stuck on that block and couldn't process it until people upgraded. So it was literally every BTCPay server. Bitcoin on chain specifically was broken, until people updated. So I had to fix it as well for CakePay. So it wasn't just you this time.
[00:50:04] Unknown:
But I think the majority of B2C Pay servers are just running Bitcoin and maybe Lightning. Whereas this once you do the fix, it then also throws the Monero stuff out again, and then that Canadian hipster is gonna have to jump in and help me fix that as well.
[00:50:20] Unknown:
Yeah. I really wonder what's breaking that. I wish I had more time to dedicate to the Monero stuff in PTC pay, but I know that there's some Monero people that are gonna start working on it more, which will be which will be good. That's good. Well, I I think Jordan knows what it is, so hopefully we get ours, sorted in the next couple of days.
[00:50:37] Unknown:
Ah, speak of the devil. Bitcoin Derby. Zero point zero three three. BB BTC Derby returns in June. We're going to discuss projects such as Dojo Bay, Samurai case developments, running nodes, and the retardation of filter ores. Seventeenth. Oh, no. Saturday, June, '3 PM at ye old dolphin, d e one three d l. Anyone is welcome. Hashtag free samurai quality. A quality meetup, Bitcoin Derby.
[00:51:17] Unknown:
You really say Derby as Derby? Is that No. It's Derby is how you say it. You say Derby. But it's d e r. Yeah. No. I know. Horse Derby,
[00:51:26] Unknown:
but it's Derby? But it's Derby. And then me and q and a have been taking the piss out of how Americans say Derby for Derby so often that now I get it confused, and I fuck it up every other time. It's like
[00:51:39] Unknown:
We've broken your inner Brit.
[00:51:41] Unknown:
Honestly, there's a lot of things that I've sort of been Americanized on now. It's not good. Slowly but surely. Yeah. To the freedom the freedom language. Bringing me down a peg. Albert Camus with zero point one five XMR. Integrity has no need of rules. Well, I like that one. Shadrach with 0.062 XMR. Great show, Max and Seth. Thank you, mate. We do try. Expatriotic with 0.041XMR. Seth, thanks for updating the version numbers for monero.com. The wallet, to bring it in line with Cake Wallet. Now in Optanium, it won't perpetually tell me to update like it used to when the version was one while cake pay was on version4..dot.
[00:52:34] Unknown:
Yeah. This was such a simple change. I think it may have been expatriotic who actually asked for the change, and I had never really thought about it. But we had initially been doing, like you said, separate versions for monero.com, but there was really no reason to do that because we updated it at the same time. We shipped the binaries at the same time. The code base is the same. It's shipped from the same commit. There is no difference other than essentially what currencies are enabled or disabled. So, yeah, good that they're they're lined up now. And, I actually didn't know that it would fix that in Obtaining, but good to hear that it did. Nice. Well done, xpatriotic. That's he's kind of, like, done his own pool request there. Kinda love it. Good work. John, with 21,420
[00:53:14] Unknown:
sats, shut the fuck up, shitcoiners. Oh.
[00:53:20] Unknown:
Thank you.
[00:53:21] Unknown:
I keep, chipping away at John because I always owe him money for something. John, need to, pay you a Monero. He's like, not this time. Soon, though. I'm not against it. I'm just just not set up for it yet. I'm like, okay. I'll ask you next time. I'm chipping away. Now you owe him 21,420
[00:53:36] Unknown:
more sats, I guess.
[00:53:39] Unknown:
Late stage huddle with 15,000 sats. John's boost is so rude. Brother rabbit. Damn. I had forgotten that name. I still have a note to try to get his help to set up a node. Just random, but thinking out loud. I think I made that note in, like, 2020, and time flies by. And now you're telling me he's disappeared. Seth, Lowell, Jeff Goldblum on cocaine.
[00:54:06] Unknown:
Does Max know where John McAfee is located? Question mark. I forgot we went down that rabbit hole last time.
[00:54:13] Unknown:
The McAfee rabbit hole. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Shout out, brother rabbit, if you are anywhere. Lots of love, mate. And, the same to you, McAfee. Eight myth randir, seven thousand seven hundred and seventy seven sats. Seth, were you a privacy focused Bitcoiner before switching to Monero? Question mark.
[00:54:36] Unknown:
It's a little hard to answer even though it sounds like a simple question. I would say no, technically, because Monero is actually the reason why I started caring about financial privacy in general and even personal privacy. I know I've told that story a little bit on on other podcasts, but I guess you could say I was a Monero user before privacy focused Bitcoiner, but they really kinda went hand in hand. Like, when I realized Yeah. That financial privacy was so important and woke up to that Bitcoin also could be useful tool. It was really kind of at the same time. So a lot of the journey into, like, samurai wallet and other things came alongside me becoming more and more active in the Monero community and using it more. But Yeah. Really more Monero started that journey for me, which I know is not is not the norm, but, it was a a cool way to kinda get into the space.
[00:55:24] Unknown:
Random end pub with 6666¢. Keep it up. I learn something new every episode. Even try Monero one of these days. You see we're chipping away, and now you know about cupcakes and Melvins as well.
[00:55:39] Unknown:
We do learn. Important stuff.
[00:55:43] Unknown:
Tune in for all the important stuff at Ungovernal Misfits. FOMO chronic with 1,001, random n pub with 2,350, TYM with 350¢, Pies with a hundred cents. Thank you, gentlemen. Gene Everett with a hundred cents. Monero was a % a Bitcoin fork. Why would you claim it wasn't? Weird. I don't think that's right, Gene. Yeah. Unfortunately, you're wrong, Gene.
[00:56:13] Unknown:
In the time when Monero came out, the vast majority of altcoins, maybe all altcoins actually, were Bitcoin forks, either in code or Chainfork, mostly Codeforks. But Monero is not a Bitcoin fork in any way. It's actually built on a a totally different protocol called CryptoNote, different code base, definitely not a Chainfork.
[00:56:30] Unknown:
So no. It's actually it was one of the OG things to not just be a Bitcoin code fork with some minor change variables, but was a a totally new new novel protocol and and code base. So yeah. I'm pretty sure we went through that on the first episode where we did, like, a breakdown of, like, what is Monero, how did it start, and all that kind of stuff. I'm sure we we went into that. So, love you, Jean. Thanks for the message. You are wrong. But if you go back and have a listen, you will learn a bit more about why. Thanks, shadowy badger, for streaming 2808 sats.
We can't see the other streamers due to the new fountain updates. I'm not sure what the new fountain up I hear they're doing they're, like, themselves maybe, or there's some sort of updates. We also seem to have lost, like, I think, 300 donors on Fountain overnight from the update. Weird. Yeah. Like, it it shows you the number of, like, how many people are donating Mhmm. Or, like, have donated, and it dropped by, like, 300 people, like, bang, overnight, which isn't great. So I I don't know what they're doing, but, Hopefully, they figure that out. I don't know whether it's, like maybe it's the way they're counting.
Maybe it's like we haven't actually lost them, but it's the way they're counting it or maybe I don't know. That's a question for asking, Mary. I'll I'll have to reach out and ask him. But, yeah, that's all the boosts. Thank you to everyone for the XMR chats and the boosts. We really do appreciate it. I think we've gone through and covered everything. Obviously, we went into the page one stuff. I'll go into that more with queue as well. Is there anything else that's, happening in the lead up to the Bitcoin slash, politician conference or anything else?
[00:58:14] Unknown:
Not that I know of. I mean, we are we are recording this one a bit early just since we're we're it's gonna be really busy. I'm gonna be slammed all week next week. So we did have to record this one on May 21 is when we're actually recording. So there's probably gonna be some other stuff that happens in May that, unfortunately, won't be a part of this episode. But, obviously, if there's big stuff, we'll we'll fold it into the the June recap so that we don't we don't miss covering it. But now I think I think that I think that's it for me. Nice. Alright, mate. Well, I hope everything goes well on your,
[00:58:43] Unknown:
trip over to Vegas, and we will catch up, I guess, probably, like, a bit later in the month next time around. And we still keep chipping away at our live stuff that isn't quite so secret anymore, but hopefully coming very soon. We're we're dangerously close with it now. When Q first talked to me about it, I was really hesitant.
[00:59:04] Unknown:
And as time has gone on, I'm now, like, really excited to get going with it. I cannot wait to to start that. When we first talked about the idea, I was I was absolutely pumped. And I know it's taken a while to iron out all the kinks, but that's gonna be a really fun one. That that type of show is is probably my favorite to actually do, so it's gonna be it's gonna be fun. Yeah. And no editing, so that's that's that's gonna be exciting. The best part for you.
[00:59:27] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly. Alright, mate. Good luck with everything, and we'll catch up on the next one. See you soon.
[00:59:34] Unknown:
If you have any questions, please reach out and ask probably Seth, but you can try and ask me as well. And we'll catch you on the next episode a month from now. Before you go, I wanna say thank you for all the support from all the Ungovernable Misfits and the Ungovernable Misfits crew. Also, a big thank you to Cake Wallet and Foundation, not only for supporting this show and everything that Ungovernable Misfits do, but also for the general freedom and open source movement. We hinted to it in this episode, but Foundation have released a new device. I'm very excited about this. If you haven't already listened to my episode, go back and have a listen.
You can check them out at foundation.xyzed. You can use my code, Ungovernable, for a discount. It's just Ungovernable. Or you can click the link in the show notes, and it will take you to our own cool page that mister Crown's made all beautiful. Check that out. And also a big thank you to Cake Wallet, which will be having its own application on the Passport Prime. So obviously, Seth has been working hard in the background there and the rest of the team to work with Foundation. It's very exciting because it's gonna mean people can have cold storage for their Monero along with lots of other cool features, I'm sure. If you haven't already tried k Wallet, give it a go. You can use this on Mac, Linux, Windows, iPhone, and Android.
I've been using it now for probably about six months, and I really like it. It's got some great Bitcoin features, great Monero features. You can link this to your own node on both. It's got swap services, payment services, all sorts of things in there that help people who actually use Bitcoin and Monero. And if you have any questions while using it, you can just send in to our own little tech support here, and me and Seth will go through it in the next episode. Thanks for listening, and stay ungovernable.
The business will fall victim to a ransomware attack every last seconds, eleven seconds.
[00:00:07] Unknown:
I am investigator investigator investigator. And I work supporting Our agenda for today, we're gonna start with just the basics of Monero. What it is, what it is, how it works, how it works. Monero is considered a privacy token.
[00:00:32] Unknown:
The world's most private
[00:00:34] Unknown:
privacy. Which means that in high, virtually all transaction details are exchanged. The world's most private
[00:00:41] Unknown:
privacy. It's that time again.
[00:01:14] Unknown:
Yeah. We are, back at it again, finally. I know we talk about how long or short it seems between each episode, almost every episode, but another one that snuck up on me. But a a quieter month this month in the Monero space. So I think we'll have a little bit of a little bit of a quicker tighter rip for y'all. Yeah. A bit of a shorter show. Should we get into the
[00:01:34] Unknown:
general update?
[00:01:35] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. The main one that I I have I guess I have two for for this month's update. The first one is kind of Monero adjacent and is somewhat of a divisive topic within the Monero community. But there is a another cryptocurrency that launched, this month called Tari, t a r I, that has a lot of ties to Monero. So Fluffy Pony, who was one of the original maintainers of Monero and one of the first advocates for Monero, but not the CEO of Monero, despite many claims otherwise by, people in the space. He has been working on this along with a friend of his, Naveen, and a lot of developers for eight years, which is Wow. A very long time. I'll be completely honest and I think far too long for what is currently possible on Tari. But it has been something that's been cooking for a really long time. I remember way back when they initially announced it and had, like, a a beta and some some cool stuff where you could buy swag with test net Tari.
This was, like, seven years ago. I got some cool swag out of it and liked the promise, but then it just kinda never happened. So I think a lot of people in the Mario community assumed it was was dead and never gonna ship, but it has gone live. Just went live, I think, the May. It is it's a a fascinating idea that is not fully fleshed out yet. So Okay. Basically, what it is today is a a memblewimble based layer one cryptocurrency. So it has some good scaling and privacy assurances. Not quite as private as Monero, but much better scaling properties. And they've done some interesting stuff to avoid some of the downsides of memble, like you don't have to have both the sender and receiver online at the same time to make a transaction, which is normally a problem with Bimbo and Wimble that's hard to work around. So they've done some cool stuff. The vast majority of what could make Tari awesome is all coming in the future. And do not ever bank on software updates that are not here yet. So I don't wanna promise that anything will actually happen of what they plan, but they have some cool ideas around NFTs in a privacy preserving way, smart contracts in a privacy preserving way. They have a a layer two that will have some cool functionality as well that's but that's all planned. None of that is possible today. Right now, it's just pretty simple layer one transactions with pretty good privacy and fantastic scaling.
[00:03:52] Unknown:
What's the tie then to Monero? Is it just that Fluffy Pony is involved and he was a sort of face one of the more known faces of Monero? Or is there any technical underpinnings that are from Monero?
[00:04:06] Unknown:
Yeah. So that's a great question. So the the only technical tie, it's not a layer two for Monero or anything like that, which I think is also a common misunderstanding. But the technical tie that does exist is that I think Tari made a really wise decision with how they handle mining. And Target itself is merge mined with Monero via p two pool. And I know I've talked about p two pool a lot on the show already. Mhmm. But that's a a fantastic decentralized pool that allows users to mine and get rewards directly without having the downsides of letting a pool choose what transactions are included. And that all happens automatically for every person who's mining TARI via the the software that they've released. So they have a really slick miner that runs on on any desktop that you have and automatically runs a TARI node in the background, handles p two pool, does all of the complex stuff for you. You You just basically set up a wallet, hit start, and choose how how hard you want to mine, in essence. That's really cool for two reasons. One, because it helps provide much better security for Tari from the get go than it would otherwise have because there's a a clear financial incentive for anyone mining Monero to also mine Tari because there's no actual additional proof of work necessary, but rather you can submit the work you're doing for Monero to Tari and vice versa.
So there's there's a really good incentive for the Monero hash rate to also support Tari, and there's a fantastic incentive now for people who maybe wouldn't have mined Monero before for whatever reason to be contributing their hash rate to Monero. And we've seen this with a a massive jump in the hash rate of p two pool on the Monero network. Mhmm. We're now at something like, I think I think it passed 20% of the network over a giga hash per second now. Wow. Okay. In hash rate on p two pool in Monero, and I think the vast majority of that increase can be attributed to to Atari. So it's it's a really kind of symbiotic approach to mining. I love the concept of merge mining. It's not done often. There are multiple projects that do merge mine with Bitcoin. But that's the only technical tie here is that it is merge mine with Monero, and thus has has some good financial incentives and positives for Monero security as well. If you're mining Monero and you've got x amount of Terahash,
[00:06:13] Unknown:
you are already doing the work. You can basically do the same with this TARI network, and it doesn't mean that you're mining any less Monero. Presumably, more and more people will do that. And then, like you're saying, you get the people coming in from the TARI side
[00:06:27] Unknown:
making Monero more resilient because it has more hash rate. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's really a win win for both. Pretty awesome. If you're already mining on p two pool, the latest two versions, four dot five and four dot six, which we'll touch on a little bit later, those have native TARI support. So if you're just mining Monero but you want to get TARI essentially for free, you can enable it via p two pool. And then if you're running Tari, you don't have to do anything extra. You're already merged mining against Monero as well. The one other call out to make with Tari is it's a a multi proof of work algorithm mining approach.
So right now, I think 50% of the mining rewards go to miners using the Random Acts algorithm, which is Monero's. So that's the merge mined portion of Tari to Monero. And then the other 50% is a GPU friendly algorithm called SHA three. They are changing this, I think, to, like, 33% CPU sub random x, merge mine with nano, 33% SHA three, so GPU friendly, and 33% that's ASIC friendly, if I remember correctly, in an upcoming update. But we can we can touch on that a little bit in a future episode if necessary. But there there is that kind of split. So, like, normally, you're gonna wanna mine on GPU and CPU if you are mining this. Whereas for Monero only, you would only wanna mine on CPU because GPUs are generally quite inefficient. So it's a little bit of a a wrinkle here, but a nice way to use some some spare GPU compute. Although, I will say, like, the mining rewards are tiny right now. Right. Okay. And there's some changes coming alongside to theoretically resolve that with those those algorithm changes. But, yeah, it's an interesting interesting idea. They have some really fantastic documentation that we can link in the show notes and a lot of interesting promises.
But just like always in the crypto space, don't assume that's that what's promised will actually ship. If it does, awesome. If it doesn't, oh, well, definitely not something I would advise investing in or anything like that. But a fascinating project and a really cool security model to merge mine with Monero.
[00:08:23] Unknown:
The crypto industry sort of reminds me of a three year old. I promise I'll do that. You're like, okay. There is a maybe 20% chance that that happens then.
[00:08:32] Unknown:
Mhmm. Yes. We have if you've been in the crypto space for any amount of time and you're taking people's promises seriously, I think you may be, a little gullible because this is this is a lesson I learned very quickly in the ICO era was promises are 99% of the time, never gonna happen. They're great. Yeah. I mean, that's the that's a big one, and I know that a lot of people are kind of interested in that one. Definitely, if you want to learn more about Tari, let us know in the the boost or XMR chats. It's something we can touch on a little bit more in the future and maybe deep dive a little bit into to their technical approach if people are interested, but I didn't wanna spend too much time on it since it's not technically Monero. Yeah. And it has some bad sides to it, like a a significant premine, to the actual, like, tokenomics there. So We don't like that.
Yeah. Yeah. I know. The next big thing for just kinda the general category is I saw that the the folks over at RitoSwap, that's, an implementation of Haveno that we've talked about a bit in the past. Mhmm. Decentralized Bisc Fork, essentially, that's built around Monero instead of built around Bitcoin. They've been just growing like crazy. It's been awesome to see them posting their stats each month and getting some insight into what kind of demand there is for peer to peer Monero trades. I saw that they posted this month that they have hit a lot of milestones. They've been growing a % month over month, every month so far in 2025. They've done $40,000,000 in volume now in the lifetime of Rito swap. That's over 6,000 swaps actually having happened through Rito. And as a reminder, Rito swap is both fiat to Monero and vice versa and crypto to Monero.
So there there's a lot of a lot of swaps on both sides happening. I didn't see specifics on, like, what the split is. I'd be really curious to know how much of that is
[00:10:13] Unknown:
fiat to XMR and how much of that is something like Bitcoin to XMR. I was amazed by the trade sizes as I was reading through your notes. So I was like Yeah. Yeah. That seems much bigger than what I've seen on BISK historically from the Fiat to Bitcoin side. 200 XMR average trade size is that's pretty big. What is that? Like, 6, $60,000?
[00:10:39] Unknown:
Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Something like that now. Maybe a little over that right right at this moment that we're recording. So, yeah, it's pretty it's pretty wild. And one of the things that we didn't touch on last month, because I I caught it too late was that having a or burrito swap specifically actually passed bisque in volume, which is a wild thought to consider. It's not surprising at all when you look at historically how much of the volume on bisque was Bisk was Monero related. Mhmm. And with RitoSwap obviously being much more Monero centric, catering to Monero users, having Fiat to Monero versus just Fiat to Bitcoin.
It was, I think, pretty much in a matter of time until it happened, but it is still pretty crazy to think that something as long standing in the space as BISK has already been passed by something so recent Yeah. As Rideau swap. And it shows that there's there's massive demand for Monero. Like, massive demand for Monero that that is happy to move away from centralized exchanges into decentralized exchanges. That's a pretty it's a pretty awesome, pretty powerful thing to see, and just a good reminder of how unstoppable the on and off ramps like this are. Like, this is no matter what a government or regulator does, there's no way for them to technically prevent something like Rito swap from existing and working Mhmm. Which is pretty awesome. Pretty awesome.
[00:11:50] Unknown:
On the Bitcoin to Monero side, but I'm sure they can fuck with the Fiat to Monero side.
[00:11:57] Unknown:
They I mean, they they can. It's not hard. It's well, it is hard because you essentially have to shut down any way of transferring money between people or enforce some verification of why you're sending money. Like, if I'm sending Zelle to somebody with no note, that there's no way for, for instance, the government to know that that has to do with the Monero swap on Rado swap. There's no direct link or tie there. I mean, there's certainly gonna be some, like, indicators of, hey. This guy has, like, a hundred cell contacts, and he's constantly paying them thousands of dollars. Like, it's probably abnormal compared to the norm, but it'd be very hard to shut down all of the potential ways to actually swap Fiat for Monero.
[00:12:40] Unknown:
I don't think so. I think it's actually really easy. I just don't think that they've like, if I was them, what I would do is I would just sit with a load of fake accounts, do a load of trades, do trades with the people who always have trade offers open, gather all their information, and then send them a letter. Send everyone letters on the same time and shit everyone up, and everyone will stop.
[00:13:04] Unknown:
I don't know. I never thought of that. That's too easy.
[00:13:08] Unknown:
That's always been my issue with BISK. You know, everyone was like, oh, yeah. You know, you can't stop this, and it's the best way, and it's no KYC. And it's like, maybe You don't know who's on the other side, and it's not exactly fucking rocket science to gather all that information and then use it to either scare people or use it as leverage or use it however you want. So it's not KYC free unless it is literally cash, to me anyway, because I always just think, like, you just don't know who is on the other side of it, and it's just too easy. So that's why I think, like, focusing on the Bitcoin to Monero and, like, within the ecosystem or, like, goods or services for cryptocurrency is really what interests me more than, like, these fiat, Bitcoin or Monero rails.
[00:13:56] Unknown:
Yeah. I think the, like, the hard part though is you need to go fiat to crypto at some point. So, like, yeah, you can go fiat to Bitcoin, but if you're doing that on Fisk, you have all the same problems. There doesn't need to be some way you actually get into the crypto ecosystem. Like you said, it certainly could be as a merchant, but it's also very difficult to be a real world merchant and actually be anonymous. Yeah. But, like, thankfully, all of these potential attacks or things, they don't work if there's not a law against this stuff. And there's not a law against this stuff. That's true. There are some exceptions, like, if you're doing massive volume and not reporting it. You could be liable, like, as a as a money transmitter in The US and stuff. But for the most part, there's not specific laws against peer to peer or no KYC swaps.
Yeah. But, obviously, that that can change. Yeah. I don't mean to put a downer on it. It sounds really negative what I'm saying. Pressing me over here, Max. I was having a good week, and I'm just gonna go cry in a corner because there's no hope. There's no hope.
[00:14:53] Unknown:
I just sometimes see these things, and I'm like, yeah. That's easily attackable.
[00:14:57] Unknown:
I always felt like I have to say it even if people like, oh, don't say that. Don't put a downer on it, but I don't know. It's a good call out. Yeah. It's a good call out and a good reminder that even these more hardcore platforms are not foolproof, and there's a lot more to privacy than just using a decentralized thing or just using Tor or just using Monero. Like, that's a it's a piece of the puzzle, but it doesn't solve doesn't solve everything.
[00:15:19] Unknown:
Yeah. But it's good, though. And and that trade volume and the sizes that are going through there is pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was absolutely shocked that the average trade side was 200.
[00:15:30] Unknown:
I know, previously, it was a lot less, but it had jumped seriously over the last three or four months. That's a pretty We're doing something wrong, mate. To me.
[00:15:40] Unknown:
Because you're not just constantly swapping for 200 Monero at a time? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing wrong in my life, but it seems like a lot to me.
[00:15:49] Unknown:
Oh, man. No kidding. No kidding. I'm a part of that $40,000,000 Rito swap volume. I won't say what part, but, you know, I'm part of it. I'm part of it. Significant part of it. My $7 my $7 matter. It would have only been $39,999,993. So, I mean, I pushed it over the threshold there. So yeah. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Even us small guys. On that depressing note, Max, we can, we can transition to the software updates. Even though Max thinks peer to peer exchanges are pointless, you should still you should still avoid KYC. You should still avoid KYC.
[00:16:26] Unknown:
I'm gonna have to get Q to yell at you. He won't. I think he'll agree with me because I've been saying the same thing for seven or eight years. I'm sure he'll be like, oh, yeah. That's just Max beating that same old drum again.
[00:16:39] Unknown:
He always finds the edge cases there, the attacks. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. So onto those offer updates for this month. They are pretty sparse. So it was a quieter month for for Monero generally. I am omitting some of the software updates that technically happened just because, like, I don't know about you, but it's not the most interesting to me to hear about a software update that was released. It's, like, just bug fixes and minor stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So I am omitting some stuff that came out in the Monero space, but definitely a quieter month this month. Mhmm. The first one of those and it is Bitcoin and Monero related, not exclusively Monero, but we launched version four dot 28 of k quality this month, and that's a really, really big one specifically for the Bitcoin space. There is some Monero specific stuff, which I'll touch on first, and then we can we can jump into the the Bitcoin stuff. But on the Monero side, the three main improvements are there's much better sub address generation. So I had noticed when I was using cake a little bit more frequently that we only auto generate new sub addresses when you actually have a transaction get completely confirmed, which in Monero is 10 confirmations before you can spend it. And that made it pretty easy if you are frequently receiving Monero to reuse the same sub address, which, to be clear, for most threat models, is not a problem at all. There's no link on chain between those two transactions, but it could reveal that you're the same entity to two different parties that you maybe don't want to reveal the same entity to. So we improved that behavior so that now as soon as your wallet sees a transaction in the mempool to a sub address, we'll rotate and give you a new sub address right then. So it's much more sensitive, much better protection against some some more severe threat models here.
Okay. And was was, like, a simple change, but one that I think can can have some good some good dividends for people with specific more aggressive threat models. Beyond that, just a couple of major I wanna say major bug fixes, but important bug fixes. There's been some issues with wallet corruption when you rename a wallet. If there's some very specific circumstances with what Android OS you're running specifically and how it handles writing files to disk, You could have a wallet where when you rename it, if all the stars align, your wallet would get corrupted, and you'd have to recreate it from seed, which is obviously a terrible user experience. Yeah. So we we put in a lot of effort with this release to kind of refactor how we do that wallet renaming. So there's much more protected against that, fixes that issue. And it also fixes some other tertiary issues. Like, we had some problems where wallet groups sometimes could disintegrate spontaneously.
Nice. Which, again, doesn't really matter on a technical level, but it's a little bit of a pain in the butt when you have a nice wallet group of all these wallets that share a seed, and then suddenly it it looks like they're all separate wallets. So some good bug fixes there. But by far, the biggest thing in this release and something we've been working on, I think, sent shortly after I joined cake last year is pay join v two for Bitcoin. And this is a really big deal because, finally, PayJoin as a tool is actually user friendly.
It actually is much easier to act as a receiver. It's much easier to to make transactions that use PayJoin, and it's something that I think is gonna really quickly gain traction and adoption in the Bitcoin space. So I was really excited to launch that. We spent a lot of time making sure that the user experience itself was really good, really simple, because the end goal is that page one is enabled by default, and it's used for a lot of your transactions. Ideally, all of them, but obviously until lots of other Bitcoin wallets support page one v two. That'll take some time, but it's a it's a really interesting good step forward for spending privacy in Bitcoin. It is not foolproof, but I think it is a a win for privacy in Bitcoin and something that's that's been fun to kinda lead the way in. This is what you can opt into on BTCPay.
[00:20:22] Unknown:
Right? I can just toggle on and then accept in our store.
[00:20:26] Unknown:
So kind of. Technically, what BTCPay has is Page one v one, which is the older version that relies on communicating directly with the peer that you're building that transaction with. So there's a reason why page one v one never really took off, which is that if two of us using mobile wallets try to pay each other on a page join, but one of us goes offline or switches apps or anything in the middle of that transaction, it just doesn't work. It fails, and the sender the receiver automatically broadcast just a normal Bitcoin transaction with the inputs that you provided as a as a fallback. That happened a lot because it required that synchronous, like, no disconnections, no loss of connection process to be able to work properly. So page one v one on the transactional level, like, how it looks on chain is exact same as page one v two. But what page one v two did is it changed it so that now the two parties work together using a directory server is what it's called, which is basically just it's similar in functionality to a Nosta Relay. Basically, just dumbly stores data. Doesn't know anything about what the data is. All the payloads are encrypted. Doesn't know anything about who is connecting to it or using it because all connections happen through something called oblivious HTTP, which is similar to, like, a one hop tour network. It's a little, it's it's different, but it provides very, very good near perfect network level privacy from the directory server.
And that allows you to just hit receive, get your pay join address, your it's technically a URL that points to where on the directory server the person paying you can look for the payload that you've given. You can go offline. The sender can go offline after they do their part. It can be asynchronous. So now you'd both you don't both have to be online the entire time the transaction happens, which is a it sounds not like, not that big of a deal, but that means that the user experience is infinitely better than it was. And now as a receiver, you can actually be a receiver reliably without having to run BTCPay or run an always online server at your home or something like that.
[00:22:24] Unknown:
I'm sure me and Q talked about this maybe, like, six months ago, but I remember us having some concerns about that and its reliability and everything else. Like, is it just that the BTC Pay server would have to always be online? Because it would be anyway, presumably, and then that wouldn't be a problem.
[00:22:42] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, you could, like, you could continue to use page one v one in BTC pay, and page one v two is backwards compatible. The shift is that no longer do I need to run a server I trust to receive pay join, but instead, I can use any directory server without trusting that directory server and communicate with the person who's paying me as a recipient. So there there is still a server involved, but it no longer needs to be your server, no longer needs to be your wallet hot and online all the time. Mhmm. It shifted to where there's just a central server. I know the word central scares people. But, again, in this case, it's totally trustless, and it has near perfect network level privacy. It's a central server that you use to communicate with the person paying you or that you're paying. It shifts that to where you don't need to trust anybody. And just like a nostril relay or something like that, anyone can run it. Anyone can connect to and use it. So if I wanted to run my own directory server, I could, and I could publish all of mine to payjoin.setforprivacy.com or something like that. It's very decentralized in the possibility of anyone running a server, but no longer does everyone who wants to receive have to run their own trusted server. Instead, they can use a trustless directory server and offload that component so that whenever, like, if you as a receiver are offline, when I try to pay you as a sender, I can still get that payload. I can construct the transaction from my side, sign all of my inputs, and pass it back. And then whenever you come online, your wallet will see that that payload is updated.
You'll grab it. You'll finish signing it, and you'll publish it to the network so that there's no longer any need for both of you to be online or for me as the receiver to run the server myself. I see. So it's like a pre signed transaction, and then you're waiting for the other party
[00:24:21] Unknown:
before it goes. And then so is is the drawback here just that there aren't that many wallets currently using it? Are you saying that BTCPay is currently v one but backwards compatible? Presumably, that means that, like, you couldn't go on now to buy a sticker pack from Ungovernmental Misfits using the v two and that work in the way that you're describing it yet. But if if it was implemented, then in theory, we could make all the payments that come into Ungovernable Misfits pay joins.
[00:24:58] Unknown:
So I think I think you need to think about it a little bit differently. So for a merchant like yourself, there's no real need for v two because you are running a server anyways. So you are always going to be online, and the sender is going to be online in the time it takes to pay you. That's okay, and that will work right now. Like, cake wallet with v two is backwards compatible with v one. So I could pay you on BTC pay right now, and that would probably work reasonably well. It's not perfect, but it would probably work reasonably well as long as I don't have, like, a connection drop in that just that time that I'm building that transaction, signing it with you, which is relatively brief. The shift for me is that now pay join with v two can actually work peer to peer in a pretty seamless way. Whereas before, it basically only worked for the merchant scenario. And because it only ever worked for the merchant scenario, there just was never a budget option because there's not much incentive for wallets to to integrate it. There's not that much merchant adoption. Like, as much as there is a circular economy around Bitcoin, it's, I think, relatively small compared to just people actually sending payments directly to each other's mobile wallets or something like that.
So that it shifts now from where it it was only basically merchants who could support this at best to now any wallet, mobile, desktop, whatever can quite easily support pay join with v two. So it shifts the the model a bit to being something that's much more flexible. Now, obviously, merchants could use v two, and there's some advantages to that, like we we talked about for the sender, especially. But, generally, it's it's an improvement that allows this peer to peer pay join process to actually work reliably and actually be user friendly instead of just the payer to merchant model.
[00:26:40] Unknown:
Now is there anything that when I cover this in proper detail with Q that he's gonna whinge about? Is he gonna have some issues with it, or is he gonna be very happy?
[00:26:49] Unknown:
I think he'll be happy with it generally. I mean, this is stowaway from samurai wallet, but with more user friendly mechanism for making it happen. You don't have to do it over Tor. You don't have to do it over Soroban. It's a little bit more seamless, but it's on chain, the exact same footprint as a stowaway from samurai wallet. So I I think people will be really happy about it, even Q. But I think that the main drawback here is that with the loss of samurai wallet Whirlpool, with the uncertainty around other coin joint tools as to how effective they are, The problem of the history of your UTXOs still exists, and you are necessarily revealing at least one of your UTXOs to the person that you're paying or the person who's paying you. So, obviously, if I'm paying a merchant, I'm gonna have to reveal that UTXO anyways. So there's not really a downside.
But if I'm receiving from someone, I normally wouldn't have to reveal any of my UTXOs to them. But now I actually would have to reveal at least one UTXO to them because I'm contributing one of the inputs to that transaction. Yeah. Yeah. And because it's harder to actually gain privacy to break the links between what happened previously with my UTXOs and what they are now, that could be revealing information about yourself that you don't want to reveal. That's really the only downside there. Potentially, there's also a way that an attacker could basically constantly request new pay join payments from you and try to get you to reveal more than what UTXO.
There's some pretty basic prevention mechanisms to this that are already built in to the page one dev kit and to page one v two specifically. But there's also some improvements that can be made there as well. That's really the only downside to me. Beyond that, it's really a lot of upside and and should, I think, be a default in most Bitcoin wallets when you're transacting on chain in the future. But be wary of that. If you do have specific outputs that you don't want ever revealed to anybody, make sure that you disable them in coin control and cake wallet. Hopefully, this will come to things like Sparrow Wallet and Envoy and others where you also have good coin control functionality. Make sure that you have those coins locked or disabled that you don't want to reveal to a third party. That just makes that a little bit even more necessary to do that than before. But I think that caveat aside, and even that one being more of a, like, high threat level, threat model,
[00:29:08] Unknown:
I I think overall, it's it's a really good change. This may sound like a really stupid and, like, Rube Goldbergy machine thing like a lot of things do, but could you have situations where the inputs are peg outs from channels so that those inputs then don't have obvious history. And then you have multiple inputs on the sender and the receiver side, both without all of the history and somehow have that built in to, like, a user friendly interface, or you have it that it's coming from a Monero swap into Bitcoin as the other option. Because as you said, like, the issue comes that you don't have that way to break the links like you did with Whirlpool anymore unless you're doing something with Monero or with Lightning.
Is there some way to, like, have those as the inputs?
[00:30:03] Unknown:
Yeah. It's it's definitely technically possible. I will say this is probably, like, a maybe the next step for pay join is to give a lot more, like, more advanced ways to actually contribute to it. But there's there's actually a lot of specific advantages for those types of scenarios. So, like, if you think about if multiple Phoenix users wanted to splice out funds on chain at the same time, and they worked together to create a page one transaction that handled all the payments that they needed, they're essentially doing a batch transaction. They're saving on fees. Yeah. And they're improving their privacy.
The same thing is true of any instant exchange or centralized exchange handling withdrawals. And this is one of the things that, like, I think the bull Bitcoin guys are doing really, really well is their the reason they implemented page one v two kind of haphazardly right now, but they're improving it. You actually wouldn't be able to send a pay join between cake and Bull Bitcoin at the moment, but I know that they're they're fixing that soon. Their long term goal is that all withdrawals from Bull Bitcoin are happening via pay joins because it actually provides them fee savings, and it provides better privacy. So there are gonna be a lot of scenarios where you're able to contribute you're able to participate in a pay join without using just your, like, regular on chain wallet funds. Be that Yeah. Funds from a centralized exchange you're withdrawing, be that some sort of, like, a community splicing thing.
I think so peach Bitcoin actually does something like this right now. They're not using Pedro in the spec as far as I understand, but they have it's called, like, the hug or something like that. I I can't remember exactly what the term that they use is, but they're kind of doing a similar concept right now where you can opt into participating in batched transactions when you need to actually receive funds for a a trade in peach Bitcoin. And it's the same idea. Like, anytime multiple people need to make a transaction at the same time, previously, that was not possible to do because there was no clear mechanism to coordinate signing that transaction between multiple parties. But that's something that page join can be actually fantastic for. So that is kind of, I think, the next step for page join. And multi party page join more than just sender to receiver is what's being worked on right now by the the page join guys as kind of the next step there.
[00:32:19] Unknown:
Interesting. It's not perfect, but the more people who use these type of tools, the more the waters are muddied and everything is kind of questionable. What's the input? What's the output? What's the change? Like, it just it just makes these assumptions harder to make. The more incentive there is for more normal non privacy focused Bitcoin is like fee savings
[00:32:43] Unknown:
and the more easy it is to do. That's where we start winning, I think. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's one of the best things about PayJoin, just like I think silent payments is another good example of this is it really should be a user experience improvement or a fee improvement or something like that to provide some other incentive. Like, the incentive of just gaining privacy is not enough for most people, unfortunately. You add on other things, other incentives. You can get entities like Coinbase doing pay joins just because they wanna save money versus caring about their users' privacy. Obviously, I'm not saying necessarily that Coinbase would adopt this. Probably not, unfortunately.
But there's there's other incentives that would drive this that improve the privacy of everyone on Bitcoin. Because some of the beautiful things with PayJoin is that the on chain footprint looks like a regular the case of a an exchange withdrawal, it would look like an exchange consolidation. It wouldn't be clear where the funds are going. And then in a regular, like, sender to receive our payment, it looks like a standard common input ownership transaction. So everyone who makes those types of transactions also benefits from plausible deniability if pay join gains very high adoption because it won't be clear to a chain surveillance agent whether or not this transaction is really what it looks like or if it's actually a pay join. There's no way to tell or distinguish on chain. So it really can have a a big snowball effect on Bitcoin privacy in some very specific ways, but is not a silver bullet for all of Bitcoin's privacy woes, just to be clear. I like it. Very good. Yeah. It's gonna be a fun one. I'm definitely excited to see it grow, and I think it's a pretty good experience right now. So I'd I'd love to hear people's thoughts on on how that works. But, enough enough Bitcoin stuff.
[00:34:18] Unknown:
Enough Bitcoin stuff. Good Monero stuff. I have a good Monero stuff question that I had from the last one. You know, we were talking last time, and I was saying about importing a seed from BIP 85 for a Bitcoin wallet into Cake Wallet so that you you have that backup. And then after we did the call, I was like, can I create as many Monero wallets as I want within Cake Wallet and have them separated out? Is there a sort of function like BIP 85 within Monero, or can I just do that from Bitcoin and use that seed phrase as a Monero wallet?
[00:34:57] Unknown:
So the answer is there's definitely not a BIP 85 equivalent in Monero. So you couldn't do that natively with, like, a policy or a 25 word Monero seed. Mhmm. But like we talked about last week, because you can create Monero wallets from a standard BIP 39 seed phrase, 12 or 24 word, You can do this. I will say the limitation right now within cake wallet is you can only have one wallet of each currency type per seed phrase. Well, I will correct that. You can only have one wallet of each currency type per seed phrase unless you use pass phrases for obvious reasons. Because if you create multiple wallets with the same seed phrase, they'll just do the same wallet. They're not actually different.
But if you did it with pass phrases, you could do that today. I think probably the more useful thing would be just to generate more BIP 39 seeds using BIP 85 Yeah. To use for separate Monero wallets. Or what is more commonly useful to people is just use accounts within the same Monero wallet. Because Monero does have account functionality just like Bitcoin. It's not used frequently because there's less reason to use it in Monero than in Bitcoin. But that's generally gonna be the best solution for most people is you can have a separate account for your public donation address or for KYC, non KYC, whatever. You can do the the same kind of cool things you can do with Bitcoin. You can do with Monero accounts.
[00:36:20] Unknown:
Okay. So you could have a current Monero wallet that you've created the seed on the cake and then add a second Monero wallet. You can have multiple wallets on the same currency within there. It just can't be with the same seed unless you're using a passphrase. That makes sense. Yeah. Absolutely. Like like, I have my
[00:36:42] Unknown:
I shouldn't do this. I don't know why I have separate wallets with separate seed phrases, but I have a separate donation. Monero wallet has its own seed phrase versus the one that I use for personal stuff because despite Monero's really good privacy, I still don't really want to make myself vulnerable to dusting attacks and stuff like that. So Yeah. So I separate them that way. I should really just use accounts. But I do do that. It's definitely possible, but, generally, most people should lean on accounts rather than separate wallets unless they have a very specific reason for separate wallets.
[00:37:10] Unknown:
Okay. Cool.
[00:37:12] Unknown:
So next up on the software side, we touched on this a little bit more, so I'll be brief here. But p two pool version four dot five and four dot six were released. The main things in here are Tari support and some improvements to Tari support in v four dot six. So you can you can easily merge mine. The other really cool, I think, novel thing here is there's no native donation mechanism in p two pool up until now. So if you were using p two pool, nothing was going to the person who created it and has spent who knows how much time building the concept of p two pool, building the software around p two pool. And he came up with a really good idea where if a user doesn't choose to merge my intari themselves, it will automatically merge my intari and send the rewards to the creator of the p2pool software, which Okay. I think could rub people the wrong way until they really think through it. But all that means is you don't lose anything. You're not losing any hash rate. You're not pointing some of your hash rate to a donation server every x amount of seconds or something. It's just instead of wasting that merge mining potential, that now goes to reward the developer who's poured so much time and effort into this. So I think it's a really fascinating way of, like, giving him giving back to him if you don't care about Tari, but without actually sacrificing any of your Monero rewards or anything. So I I think it's really the best of both worlds, and I think a a cool way to build out donations that's different than
[00:38:32] Unknown:
normal. Yeah. That's fair enough. I like that. And then last on the software side,
[00:38:37] Unknown:
is just a reminder that there's a really cool project called Cup Rate. That's a a new implementation of Monero written from the ground up in Rust. They released version zero dot zero dot three. Nothing, like, major changed. Just a lot of bug fixes and compatibility improvements with the rest of the Monero software world. But a really cool thing to exist, I think a lot more useful than something like knots in the Bitcoin world, which is just a code fork with a few changes and one maintainer and lots of dangerous things. But instead, this has multiple contributors and maintainers. It's written in a completely different language, so it has a lot of benefits to the rest of the Monero ecosystem.
It's much faster to sync at least right now, and has some cool advantages. So I I am definitely really glad that that has progressed, continued to progress, And, hopefully, we'll get some some good future parity and be something where people can can run it instead of Monero d if they so choose in the future. It is still definitely very beta. But if you wanna try it out, you you definitely can, and I've had some good experience with it. So that's been been cool to see that continue growing. Yeah. That's cool. Is there something in the Monero world where cup means something? Because you've got, like, cup rate, and then I'm sure you have, like, cupcake or something, which is like a kind of like a hardware
[00:39:50] Unknown:
wallet solution or some sort of thing like that.
[00:39:54] Unknown:
There is not that I know of. It's just a coincidence, I think, that there's cupcake. I don't I have no clue why Cuprate is named Cuprate. So that would be the that'd be a good question. Maybe we can get one of their devs on sometime and check through kinda the background of the project and why it's named that because I I don't think so. The the only, like, real big naming thing in the Monero space is using Esperanto for everything. Yeah. Which I think is equal parts cool and really dumb because no one speaks Esperanto. So, like, when I try to say Monero, which is the other awesome Android wallet for Monero, It took me seven years to learn how to actually pronounce it properly because I don't speak Esperanto, but there is some cool some cool stuff that comes out of that. But, yeah, I think just a coincidence that they're named the same. The reason cupcake is named cupcake is because we wanted it to be, in some ways, like, feeling like it's part of the the cake quality ecosystem. So trying to keep it keep it on theme, but there's nothing significant about cup, just cupcake.
[00:40:48] Unknown:
Okay. It's very childish, but it always makes me laugh when I hear that. I don't know if cupcake means the same thing in America as it does in The UK. Does it mean something other than the the dessert that you eat? Yeah. In England, at least, like, a cupcake is, like, a really childish thing that people do at school where they, like, fart in their hand, and then they'd put their hand over someone's nose. They're, like, cupping the fart and putting it on
[00:41:11] Unknown:
as they do it, they'd go cupcake like that. Maybe I just didn't have as fun of a childhood as you. Such a rich person. American thing, but I've I've never heard of it. Oh, we're gonna have to change the wallet name now.
[00:41:24] Unknown:
Yeah. It's probably just an English thing because it's absolutely disgraceful.
[00:41:28] Unknown:
If you also know what a cupcake is, let us know in the comments. I know what a cupcheck is. I don't know. I've never heard of a cupcake of those. What's a cupcheck? Know what a cupcheck is? No. It's another Travis thing where guys would tap each other in the balls as a cup check, and I don't know. There's no there's there's no real reason for it, but that was definitely something that was a a terror of my childhood. That's a a Melvin in The UK. We had, like, someone would, like, flick you in the bollocks. Yeah. Melvin. You'll always have the weirdest name for things. A Melvin. Like, what did what did Melvin do to deserve that being named after him? Like I guess maybe it happened to Melvin first, and then it was named after him or something.
[00:42:06] Unknown:
Who knows?
[00:42:09] Unknown:
On that extreme tangent. Yeah. Yeah. That's all I've got for the, the software and general updates, but I know we got some some XMR chats and boost to jump into. We got quite a few, I think.
[00:42:19] Unknown:
Let's have a look. What do we got? Web wipe with 0.043 XMR. We're hosting a privacy meetup in Charlotte, North Carolina on July from six to 10PM at Great Wagon Road Distilling. Topics include privacy tools for XMR and BTC, cake wallet, Ashigaru presentation with a little salute, UGM, and Dojo Bay, NIMVPN, Simplex, and more. All are welcome. Well, that sounds like a fucking excellent meetup.
[00:42:54] Unknown:
It does. I know they also did one they did one at PubKey recently. I wasn't able to attend, unfortunately, but, it sounded like it was gonna be a good one. So seems like they're doing good work. Very nice. Pub key one, they used our presentation as well.
[00:43:07] Unknown:
Very good. I was saying this to queue the other day, like, the difference because there's a meetup called Bitcoin Derby that often sends in boosts to us. They do some really good meetups where it's all, like, privacy focused and running nodes and all this kind of stuff. And then I was saying to him, like, depending on where you are geographically, you can either go there and learn about the stuff that really matters, or you can end up in a absolute shit fest of people, like, wanking off over sailor and talking about their ETFs and price stuff and everything. And it's just like potluck which town you live in. So,
[00:43:41] Unknown:
definitely, Charlotte, North Carolina sounds like a good one. I can say they do have a great meetup scene there. The Bitcoin meetup in Charlotte is pretty legendary. I know people travel from quite a ways around to go to it, so definitely would recommend.
[00:43:53] Unknown:
Nice. Doctor Zivago with zero point zero one five XMR. If you're not familiar with simplified privacy, I think you should reach out and introduce yourselves. Be cons I think it's probably maybe consider an episode with them. Shadow Rebel, their podcast guy, PS, maximalists are gay. Do you know these guys? Simplified privacy?
[00:44:20] Unknown:
I have heard of them, but I don't know don't know what shot that off my head. Definitely something I'll have to look into, though. Yeah. We'll have a look. I have to say I haven't heard, but,
[00:44:29] Unknown:
if you're listening, simplified privacy or shadow rebel. Sounds good. Jimmy Spedden with zero point zero one XMR. Bitcoin normie clowns crying at barn shitting on lightning. Funny. Hashtag free samurai. Oh god. We really got it in the neck there. So many messages of people really upset with us shitting on lightning. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I didn't I didn't follow that saga. I don't know how really. Like, it's hard to read in text, isn't it? But, Yeah. Yeah. People are quite upset. I think the thing is people are upset. It's like, oh, well, you're fucking getting boost with lightning, so it works enough to get boost. It's like, yeah, it does because it's custodial.
Yeah. Because I pay for my Albi thing, it works. Or because it's on fountain, it works. It's queues ones are the ones that always drop because he actually self hosts. So, yeah.
[00:45:23] Unknown:
That's why we were shitting on that. Yeah. You definitely will get I've I've noticed if you put out some lightning hate, you'll get a lot of people agreeing. You'll get a lot of people denying it, and then you find out they're just using Wallet of Satoshi or something. Yeah. And then you'll get a bunch of Bitcoin cashers or others. Yeah. That that works seamlessly, and then I inevitably ask for wallet are you using. It's 99% of the time a custodial wallet. And I'm like, yeah. Duh. You're you're paying from a custodial wallet to a custodial wallet. Databases work. Like, that's that's not surprising here. I have to say Wallet of Satoshi is fucking seamless. Like, if you wanted to show someone Bitcoin
[00:45:55] Unknown:
Bitcoin and you wanted it to look, like, really good and slick and easy and just work,
[00:46:00] Unknown:
it's a pretty nice experience. It has because it's not Bitcoin.
[00:46:03] Unknown:
Yeah. I know. But I'm just saying, if you wanted to present it as such, people will go, wow. That's fucking seamless.
[00:46:11] Unknown:
I am curious. They're they're supposedly doing a self custodial wallet. I am really curious what they're gonna do for that. So that'll be an interesting thing to watch.
[00:46:20] Unknown:
I saw that. I mean, they've got the user base, so I don't know how they would go about doing it, but we shall see. We shall see. Jimmy Spedden with I know. Read that one already. Schrodinger with zero point zero one four XMR. The latest confab with a guy from the rage was great. Good to see some sane people are still out there and covering the important topics. Hashtag free samurai. Yeah. That was a good one. I really enjoyed that. Doctor Zavargo with zero point zero one five XMR. The rage should figure out a mailing address for samurai and tornado cash devs. Donations work, but Satan worshiping fucks kill morale first. A handwritten postcard goes a long way in a war for freedom.
How do you know I'm doctor Zavargo? Question mark. No keys. No proof. Good point.
[00:47:17] Unknown:
So he's suggesting actually, like, mailing them postcards. Is that right? I think so. Yeah. I know that that can be definitely a a good thing. I don't I don't know anything about a mailing address, but surely there is one. I mean, neither of them are actually in jail, but I don't know if their, like, house arrest address is published or not. I would assume probably not, for obvious reasons. Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. Maybe there could be, like,
[00:47:41] Unknown:
people could send the postcard somewhere that we have them scanned and put up somewhere so they can freely read them without doxing themselves or something like that, just as, like, a little I don't know. That's a good idea. Booster. Yeah. We'd happily do that. We can post them on on government misfits. So the rage do listen to the show. So if you guys are listening and you wanna collaborate there, we'll we'll happily do something and try and, put a pep back in their step. Barn miner. Oh god. 0.03XMR. Motherfucker.
Fixed BTC pay server. Their update cucked Monero payments. Required another update today because some bug in NBXplorer fixed that but baulked Monero again. Mother bitch. Not sure who breaks more, me or Max. Thank god for that Canadian hipster Jordan. Do you know what? We're probably on the same, same level here, Barn, because mine's also fucked. I had Black Coffee help me with BTC pay, I don't know, a week ago making some changes. Then it fell over again. Then I was on the phone to Jordan, that Canadian hipster, whinging about it. I was like, like, fucking hell. It's always lightning or BTC pay server. It is bane of my life whinging on. And he was like, oh, what is the problem? I was like, some fucking n b explorer bullshit. I need to read up and try and fix it. And then he was like, I know what it is. I've just fixed it for bahn. And I was like,
[00:49:23] Unknown:
okay. Right. To make you feel a little bit better, this wasn't just y'all, and this was every instance of b d c pay server that exists. Oh, good point. So yeah. Okay. Unfortunately. Yeah. There was a bug in in the explorer with how they had implemented Segwit, and some unknown miner changed the version number in a very weird way in the block that they mined. And it, completely borked in the explorer. Got stuck on that block and couldn't process it until people upgraded. So it was literally every BTCPay server. Bitcoin on chain specifically was broken, until people updated. So I had to fix it as well for CakePay. So it wasn't just you this time.
[00:50:04] Unknown:
But I think the majority of B2C Pay servers are just running Bitcoin and maybe Lightning. Whereas this once you do the fix, it then also throws the Monero stuff out again, and then that Canadian hipster is gonna have to jump in and help me fix that as well.
[00:50:20] Unknown:
Yeah. I really wonder what's breaking that. I wish I had more time to dedicate to the Monero stuff in PTC pay, but I know that there's some Monero people that are gonna start working on it more, which will be which will be good. That's good. Well, I I think Jordan knows what it is, so hopefully we get ours, sorted in the next couple of days.
[00:50:37] Unknown:
Ah, speak of the devil. Bitcoin Derby. Zero point zero three three. BB BTC Derby returns in June. We're going to discuss projects such as Dojo Bay, Samurai case developments, running nodes, and the retardation of filter ores. Seventeenth. Oh, no. Saturday, June, '3 PM at ye old dolphin, d e one three d l. Anyone is welcome. Hashtag free samurai quality. A quality meetup, Bitcoin Derby.
[00:51:17] Unknown:
You really say Derby as Derby? Is that No. It's Derby is how you say it. You say Derby. But it's d e r. Yeah. No. I know. Horse Derby,
[00:51:26] Unknown:
but it's Derby? But it's Derby. And then me and q and a have been taking the piss out of how Americans say Derby for Derby so often that now I get it confused, and I fuck it up every other time. It's like
[00:51:39] Unknown:
We've broken your inner Brit.
[00:51:41] Unknown:
Honestly, there's a lot of things that I've sort of been Americanized on now. It's not good. Slowly but surely. Yeah. To the freedom the freedom language. Bringing me down a peg. Albert Camus with zero point one five XMR. Integrity has no need of rules. Well, I like that one. Shadrach with 0.062 XMR. Great show, Max and Seth. Thank you, mate. We do try. Expatriotic with 0.041XMR. Seth, thanks for updating the version numbers for monero.com. The wallet, to bring it in line with Cake Wallet. Now in Optanium, it won't perpetually tell me to update like it used to when the version was one while cake pay was on version4..dot.
[00:52:34] Unknown:
Yeah. This was such a simple change. I think it may have been expatriotic who actually asked for the change, and I had never really thought about it. But we had initially been doing, like you said, separate versions for monero.com, but there was really no reason to do that because we updated it at the same time. We shipped the binaries at the same time. The code base is the same. It's shipped from the same commit. There is no difference other than essentially what currencies are enabled or disabled. So, yeah, good that they're they're lined up now. And, I actually didn't know that it would fix that in Obtaining, but good to hear that it did. Nice. Well done, xpatriotic. That's he's kind of, like, done his own pool request there. Kinda love it. Good work. John, with 21,420
[00:53:14] Unknown:
sats, shut the fuck up, shitcoiners. Oh.
[00:53:20] Unknown:
Thank you.
[00:53:21] Unknown:
I keep, chipping away at John because I always owe him money for something. John, need to, pay you a Monero. He's like, not this time. Soon, though. I'm not against it. I'm just just not set up for it yet. I'm like, okay. I'll ask you next time. I'm chipping away. Now you owe him 21,420
[00:53:36] Unknown:
more sats, I guess.
[00:53:39] Unknown:
Late stage huddle with 15,000 sats. John's boost is so rude. Brother rabbit. Damn. I had forgotten that name. I still have a note to try to get his help to set up a node. Just random, but thinking out loud. I think I made that note in, like, 2020, and time flies by. And now you're telling me he's disappeared. Seth, Lowell, Jeff Goldblum on cocaine.
[00:54:06] Unknown:
Does Max know where John McAfee is located? Question mark. I forgot we went down that rabbit hole last time.
[00:54:13] Unknown:
The McAfee rabbit hole. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Shout out, brother rabbit, if you are anywhere. Lots of love, mate. And, the same to you, McAfee. Eight myth randir, seven thousand seven hundred and seventy seven sats. Seth, were you a privacy focused Bitcoiner before switching to Monero? Question mark.
[00:54:36] Unknown:
It's a little hard to answer even though it sounds like a simple question. I would say no, technically, because Monero is actually the reason why I started caring about financial privacy in general and even personal privacy. I know I've told that story a little bit on on other podcasts, but I guess you could say I was a Monero user before privacy focused Bitcoiner, but they really kinda went hand in hand. Like, when I realized Yeah. That financial privacy was so important and woke up to that Bitcoin also could be useful tool. It was really kind of at the same time. So a lot of the journey into, like, samurai wallet and other things came alongside me becoming more and more active in the Monero community and using it more. But Yeah. Really more Monero started that journey for me, which I know is not is not the norm, but, it was a a cool way to kinda get into the space.
[00:55:24] Unknown:
Random end pub with 6666¢. Keep it up. I learn something new every episode. Even try Monero one of these days. You see we're chipping away, and now you know about cupcakes and Melvins as well.
[00:55:39] Unknown:
We do learn. Important stuff.
[00:55:43] Unknown:
Tune in for all the important stuff at Ungovernal Misfits. FOMO chronic with 1,001, random n pub with 2,350, TYM with 350¢, Pies with a hundred cents. Thank you, gentlemen. Gene Everett with a hundred cents. Monero was a % a Bitcoin fork. Why would you claim it wasn't? Weird. I don't think that's right, Gene. Yeah. Unfortunately, you're wrong, Gene.
[00:56:13] Unknown:
In the time when Monero came out, the vast majority of altcoins, maybe all altcoins actually, were Bitcoin forks, either in code or Chainfork, mostly Codeforks. But Monero is not a Bitcoin fork in any way. It's actually built on a a totally different protocol called CryptoNote, different code base, definitely not a Chainfork.
[00:56:30] Unknown:
So no. It's actually it was one of the OG things to not just be a Bitcoin code fork with some minor change variables, but was a a totally new new novel protocol and and code base. So yeah. I'm pretty sure we went through that on the first episode where we did, like, a breakdown of, like, what is Monero, how did it start, and all that kind of stuff. I'm sure we we went into that. So, love you, Jean. Thanks for the message. You are wrong. But if you go back and have a listen, you will learn a bit more about why. Thanks, shadowy badger, for streaming 2808 sats.
We can't see the other streamers due to the new fountain updates. I'm not sure what the new fountain up I hear they're doing they're, like, themselves maybe, or there's some sort of updates. We also seem to have lost, like, I think, 300 donors on Fountain overnight from the update. Weird. Yeah. Like, it it shows you the number of, like, how many people are donating Mhmm. Or, like, have donated, and it dropped by, like, 300 people, like, bang, overnight, which isn't great. So I I don't know what they're doing, but, Hopefully, they figure that out. I don't know whether it's, like maybe it's the way they're counting.
Maybe it's like we haven't actually lost them, but it's the way they're counting it or maybe I don't know. That's a question for asking, Mary. I'll I'll have to reach out and ask him. But, yeah, that's all the boosts. Thank you to everyone for the XMR chats and the boosts. We really do appreciate it. I think we've gone through and covered everything. Obviously, we went into the page one stuff. I'll go into that more with queue as well. Is there anything else that's, happening in the lead up to the Bitcoin slash, politician conference or anything else?
[00:58:14] Unknown:
Not that I know of. I mean, we are we are recording this one a bit early just since we're we're it's gonna be really busy. I'm gonna be slammed all week next week. So we did have to record this one on May 21 is when we're actually recording. So there's probably gonna be some other stuff that happens in May that, unfortunately, won't be a part of this episode. But, obviously, if there's big stuff, we'll we'll fold it into the the June recap so that we don't we don't miss covering it. But now I think I think that I think that's it for me. Nice. Alright, mate. Well, I hope everything goes well on your,
[00:58:43] Unknown:
trip over to Vegas, and we will catch up, I guess, probably, like, a bit later in the month next time around. And we still keep chipping away at our live stuff that isn't quite so secret anymore, but hopefully coming very soon. We're we're dangerously close with it now. When Q first talked to me about it, I was really hesitant.
[00:59:04] Unknown:
And as time has gone on, I'm now, like, really excited to get going with it. I cannot wait to to start that. When we first talked about the idea, I was I was absolutely pumped. And I know it's taken a while to iron out all the kinks, but that's gonna be a really fun one. That that type of show is is probably my favorite to actually do, so it's gonna be it's gonna be fun. Yeah. And no editing, so that's that's that's gonna be exciting. The best part for you.
[00:59:27] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly. Alright, mate. Good luck with everything, and we'll catch up on the next one. See you soon.
[00:59:34] Unknown:
If you have any questions, please reach out and ask probably Seth, but you can try and ask me as well. And we'll catch you on the next episode a month from now. Before you go, I wanna say thank you for all the support from all the Ungovernable Misfits and the Ungovernable Misfits crew. Also, a big thank you to Cake Wallet and Foundation, not only for supporting this show and everything that Ungovernable Misfits do, but also for the general freedom and open source movement. We hinted to it in this episode, but Foundation have released a new device. I'm very excited about this. If you haven't already listened to my episode, go back and have a listen.
You can check them out at foundation.xyzed. You can use my code, Ungovernable, for a discount. It's just Ungovernable. Or you can click the link in the show notes, and it will take you to our own cool page that mister Crown's made all beautiful. Check that out. And also a big thank you to Cake Wallet, which will be having its own application on the Passport Prime. So obviously, Seth has been working hard in the background there and the rest of the team to work with Foundation. It's very exciting because it's gonna mean people can have cold storage for their Monero along with lots of other cool features, I'm sure. If you haven't already tried k Wallet, give it a go. You can use this on Mac, Linux, Windows, iPhone, and Android.
I've been using it now for probably about six months, and I really like it. It's got some great Bitcoin features, great Monero features. You can link this to your own node on both. It's got swap services, payment services, all sorts of things in there that help people who actually use Bitcoin and Monero. And if you have any questions while using it, you can just send in to our own little tech support here, and me and Seth will go through it in the next episode. Thanks for listening, and stay ungovernable.
