In this episode, we dive into an exciting announcement with Zach and Q from Foundation. After two years of hard work, they unveil the team's latest creation, the Passport Prime, a revolutionary personal security platform. Unlike traditional hardware wallets, Passport Prime combines the features of a hardware wallet with those of a YubiKey, offering multi-factor authentication, encrypted storage, and an extendable app platform for third-party developers. This open app platform aims to empower developers to build security applications, contrasting with Ledger's closed ecosystem.
Zach and Q discuss the meticulous design process behind Passport Prime, highlighting its unique industrial design, including a curved screen and CNC'd aluminum chassis. They emphasize the device's durability, featuring Gorilla Glass and a high-quality IPS touchscreen display.
The conversation shifts to the device's capabilities, which extend beyond a typical hardware wallet. Passport Prime supports various applications, including a 2FA codes app, a security key application, a file browser with a unique AirLock feature, and a seed vault app. These features make it a Swiss army knife for personal security, allowing users to securely store and manage their digital assets.
KeyOS, the operating system powering Passport Prime, is introduced as a microkernel-based OS written in Rust, offering modularity, resilience, and enhanced security. The open-source nature of KeyOS allows third-party developers to create apps for the platform, with Cake Wallet being the first to integrate.
The episode also covers the innovative Quantum Link Bluetooth, which ensures secure communication between Passport Prime and smartphones. This feature, along with the device's modular design, addresses potential security concerns while enhancing user experience.
Finally, the hosts discuss the backup solutions for Passport Prime, utilizing NFC key cards and optional cloud backups to provide a seamless recovery process. The episode concludes with details on the device's availability and pricing, highlighting the team's dedication to creating a high-quality, user-friendly product.
IMPORTANT LINKS
Zach and Q discuss the meticulous design process behind Passport Prime, highlighting its unique industrial design, including a curved screen and CNC'd aluminum chassis. They emphasize the device's durability, featuring Gorilla Glass and a high-quality IPS touchscreen display.
The conversation shifts to the device's capabilities, which extend beyond a typical hardware wallet. Passport Prime supports various applications, including a 2FA codes app, a security key application, a file browser with a unique AirLock feature, and a seed vault app. These features make it a Swiss army knife for personal security, allowing users to securely store and manage their digital assets.
KeyOS, the operating system powering Passport Prime, is introduced as a microkernel-based OS written in Rust, offering modularity, resilience, and enhanced security. The open-source nature of KeyOS allows third-party developers to create apps for the platform, with Cake Wallet being the first to integrate.
The episode also covers the innovative Quantum Link Bluetooth, which ensures secure communication between Passport Prime and smartphones. This feature, along with the device's modular design, addresses potential security concerns while enhancing user experience.
Finally, the hosts discuss the backup solutions for Passport Prime, utilizing NFC key cards and optional cloud backups to provide a seamless recovery process. The episode concludes with details on the device's availability and pricing, highlighting the team's dedication to creating a high-quality, user-friendly product.
IMPORTANT LINKS
- https://foundation.xyz/ungovernable
- https://foundation.xyz/beyond
- [email protected]
- https://github.com/betrusted-io
VALUE FOR VALUE
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FOUNDATION
https://foundation.xyz/ungovernable
Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.
As a sovereign computing company, Foundation is the antithesis of today’s tech conglomerates. Returning to cypherpunk principles, they build open source technology that “can’t be evil”.
Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show!
Use code: Ungovernable for $10 off of your purchase
CAKE WALLET
https://cakewallet.com
Cake Wallet is an open-source, non-custodial wallet available on Android, iOS, macOS, and Linux.
Features:
- Built-in Exchange: Swap easily between Bitcoin and Monero.
- User-Friendly: Simple interface for all users.
Monero Users:
- Batch Transactions: Send multiple payments at once.
- Faster Syncing: Optimized syncing via specified restore heights
- Proxy Support: Enhance privacy with proxy node options.
Bitcoin Users:
- Coin Control: Manage your transactions effectively.
- Silent Payments: Static bitcoin addresses
- Batch Transactions: Streamline your payment process.
Thank you Cake Wallet for sponsoring the show!
(00:03:05) THANK YOU FOUNDATION
(00:03:54) THANK YOU CAKE WALLET
(00:04:59) Introducing Passport Prime: A New Personal Security Platform
(00:08:09) Passport Prime: Design and Build Quality
(00:11:59) Passport Prime: What Can It Do?
(00:18:56) Passport Prime: Why You Need It In Your Life
(00:26:34) KeyOS: The New Operating System
(00:33:08) KeyOS: wHo DiD wE cLoNe!?
(00:36:11) KeyOS: Third-Party Apps and Developer Ecosystem
(00:41:48) Quantum Link Bluetooth: Proper Futuristic
(00:49:05) What's The FUD Gonna Be?
(00:51:07) Quantum Link Bluetooth: Erasing UX Hurdles
(00:58:24) Quantum Link Bluetooth: Examples of Better UX
(01:01:45) Quantum Link Bluetooth: The Nostr Bounty
(01:07:08) Accessories and Future Features
(01:12:10) So How Are We Backing All of This Up?
(01:24:37) Hardware Deep Dive: What's Inside the Device?
(01:34:34) Hardware Deep Dive: Q's Victory Lap
(01:39:54) Call For Questions
(01:40:18) When Can I Get My Hands On One?
(01:43:49) Passport Gen 2 is Here To Stay
(01:46:19) Congratulations Foundation!
[00:00:04]
Unknown:
Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless. Bitcoin. Now what's the Bitcoin?
[00:00:19] Unknown:
Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking 0.
[00:00:41] Unknown:
Alright, you ungovernable misfits. AI Max is back. Obviously, it should be due to the outpouring of support and rave reviews of my performance last go round. But I've come off the bench again because our Winder in chief, Maxim, is burning the midnight oil editing this episode. Anyways, enough about that prick. Let's get started. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail? Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
Welcome back to the show. Today, we have another special interview with Foundation's Zach Herbert and our favorite robot, Bitcoin Q and A. They are here today to comb through the details of Foundation's game changing personal security device. What's it made of? What's it for? What new tech have they come up with this time? All will be revealed in this after party of sorts. Before we get to Zac and Q, I wanna thank every one of our listeners that are now listening on podcasting 2.0 apps. The majority of The Misfits are on Fountain, but there are also others on Antennepod, Podcast Guru, Podverse, and many others.
So if you haven't already, get yourself a new podcast app at podcastapps.com. Time, talent, and treasure are important parts of the show dynamic. Every time we get a misfit streaming some sats, boosting the episode, sending a PayNim transaction, or dropping an XMR chat, it's a great feeling so thank you for your treasure and returning value back to the show. When it comes to talent, if you have something you can bring to the show let us know. Maybe it's evergreen art we can display in the chapters or maybe you're a music producer and you have a good jingle for the news section of the Bitcoin Brief. If you don't have any treasure to share with the show, it's all good.
We will gladly accept talents. As announced at the end of the Ashigaru interview, we are working on meetup materials such as presentations for the tools we use at Ungovernable Misfits. If you want to help with these sorts of projects, then send us an email. This is grassroots and community driven, so we can use all the help we can get. I also wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices. Foundation helps keep this show running, and they do things properly. Everything they do is fully open source. Their hardware is absolutely beautiful, and it is fuckwit resistant.
I think you're going to be pleased with the latest Foundation hardware release as it maintains the same standards for quality and function that all of you passport holders are accustomed to. I don't want to spoil anything just yet. But just so you know, the current passport is not being deprecated and will still be actively worked on. And if you're looking to purchase one for yourself, a friend, or family member this Christmas season, then make sure to go to foundation.xyz/ungovernable for $10 off a foundation passport. And last but not least, the newest partner of the Ungovernable Misfits team, which is Cake Wallet.
Their support of us and a lot of grassroots projects in the Bitcoin and Monero ecosystems is awesome, and we appreciate their association with the podcast. For those of you who actually use Bitcoin and actually care about their privacy and security, Cakewallet make it incredibly simple for you to live outside of the traditional financial system. You can use Cake Pay within the app to buy gift cards for food, petrol, and whatever else you might need day to day. You can use silent payments, and, of course, you can use Monero, you might think. It's a bit weird shouting out cake on a special episode such as this.
But I assure you, they have a cool partnership with Foundation when it comes to this new device, so be prepared to be pleasantly surprised. Round 2 in the books. AI Max crushes it again. We'll catch you on the outro, and enjoy the show with Zach and Q.
[00:05:00] Unknown:
Morning. Morning. Good morning, sir. How are you getting on? You sound great. And then it was.
[00:05:07] Unknown:
Yeah. It's warming up a little bit now. If it was any other podcast with anybody else, I'd have canceled it, but I couldn't resist the opportunity for this one. We got some big stuff to cover. Rolling out the red carpet treatment. Thank you. Well, for the listeners, this is gonna be going live just after Zac does a big announcement. So we're safe, I think, to cover everything that's gonna be covered in that announcement. Big news. You guys have been working extremely hard the last year. It's very difficult to get in contact with either of you. Heads down. Working day and night. I have to say, after Q's just gone through with me what it is that you have designed and built, I'll let you off.
It's fucking gorgeous, and, I think it's really gonna fill a gap in the market. So I guess, Zac, as you would have just done your keynote, maybe you can kick us off and let us know what you crazy bosses have built.
[00:06:12] Unknown:
Thanks, Max. I'm I'm glad you, you're saying that. Appreciate the kind words. It's been, let's see, about 2 years now, right, Q, of, working on this new thing? Indeed. Yeah. I think almost 2 years to the date. And we have announced a new device, our 3rd generation passport device called passport prime. And importantly, we're not calling it a hardware wallet. We're calling it the first personal security platform because it combines the features of a hardware wallet with the features of a YubiKey, you know, like security keys. Mhmm. Multi factor authentication, encrypted storage, and actually an extendable app platform that we're gonna be fully opening in a permissionless way to third party developers to build apps to run on Passport Prime and to integrate their apps kind of being like the the open app platform for security applications as, you know, maybe standing opposite to Ledger's very closed restrictive walled garden ecosystem.
We're trying to blow it all open. We're trying to empower every single developer that makes a wallet, makes a service, makes a security related app that needs to give their users secure offline storage of their keys. We wanna empower them to ultimately come build on, Passport Prime. So, yeah, that's a little quick summary as to what we've been working on. Yeah. That's a good summary. Well, Q just walked me through
[00:07:51] Unknown:
the design and some of the features. I would say, first of all, to anyone listening, this is very, very different to what you're gonna be used to from Foundation. It's a very different device from Passport. It's gonna work alongside Envoy still, though, and usual quality design. It's really, really beautiful. When I put this against the other options that are out there, even without the fact that this can do a lot more. It's a beautiful thing to look at. I assume there's a lot of work that's gone into this, especially with people will be able to see it now. We're actually gonna have this as an image while you're listening. So if you're in your podcast player, you can take a look now, and it's gonna be live on the website as well. But that curved screen that falls away, it's really, really nice.
[00:08:38] Unknown:
Yeah. Thank you. I, a lot of work has gone into the industrial design. We knew when we started 2 years ago, actually, almost exactly what we wanted to build from a size and form factor perspective and then also from a functionality perspective. But, we knew we wanted to use a screen that was around the same size as a credit card screen. So we went with a 3 and a half inch IPS full color touchscreen display. We didn't wanna make it, you know, look exactly like every other device on the market, which, as you know, is is something that we care a lot about. We still have this, I think, future nostalgia aspect to our designs. We have this, we call digital deco patterning or design language that that we like to use. And so you often see a lot of, maybe slightly older Android phones, the Samsung phones that do the curved glass on the right and left edges where it kinda curves over to the side.
We decided to do what we call waterfall glass on the on the top and bottom edges. The glass waterfalls, you know, away from you as it gets to the top of the device, but then also we wanted it to be really easy to pick up. One thing that drives me crazy with these small devices, especially if if any of the listeners have tried to pick up the new Ledger Stacks, which is that new touchscreen e ink device off a desk. It's like you can't pick it up. There's nowhere to to grab it from because it's so flat. You can't even get your fingers around it. And so we we curve the sides of the device up, and we have this rail, we call it, that goes around 3 of the sides, the top, the left, and the right. And so it's so, like, easy just to pick it up, you know, to use it. And I am I'm really excited about the design language because most of these touchscreen devices, they all look the same. And we thought we could do something that that's, you know, pretty differentiated, and it's also it's all, CNC'd from aluminum, which is new for us. So the, the chassis itself, the frame CNC'd from aluminum and anodized, the rear plate, and then the glass is all Gorilla Glass, which is really cool and and pretty durable. You can try scratching it, you know, with a with a razor blade or something. You're not gonna scratch the screen. So it really brings us up, I think, to a level of not fully there yet, but much closer to, I think, Apple quality design and build quality than anyone else, you know, any direct competitor.
[00:11:04] Unknown:
It's certainly from, from the slides and everything that I've gone through with Q. I remember actually when Minh, you first spoke, you said how much of an Apple fanboy you used to be, and you were talking about how important, like, the unboxing experience is and everything. And from the images of how this device is gonna be presented, it is getting dangerously close to that feel. There's a lot of thought that's gone into that, the way that the box is opened and everything. And in a sea of shit in the Bitcoin space, like, usually, you buy a product, and it ships, and it arrives, and it's plasticky.
And if you were to give this as a gift to somebody, even though it's expensive, you'd be almost embarrassed because it's so shit. Whereas when you're giving this, it feels premium. It feels quality, which is refreshing. The thing that was particularly exciting me is just how different this is to what you've already got. You know, I wanna break down a little bit for people who are listening. Like, this isn't like a a passport 2 point o. This is a very different device that can do a hell of a lot. As we were going through me and q, there were so many things. I was like, oh, I could use it for this. Oh, I could use it for that. And there are gonna be trade offs there as with everything. But what are the things that, this thing unlocks for users?
[00:12:23] Unknown:
Yeah. I I can, I can take that one and cover off, like, all of the different applets that we're gonna have at launch? So first and foremost, you know, we are primarily a Bitcoin company, so it won't come as a shock to learn that, obviously, Passport Prime is a fully functioning Bitcoin hardware wallet and has all of the functionalities that you've come to know and love from our existing products. So things like being able to connect to Spyro, BlueWallet, Nunchuk, etcetera, all of that side of things, passphrase support, temporary seed support, multisig, etcetera. All of that stuff is obviously all gonna be jam packed in there and is gonna be even more intuitive to use now, thanks to the wonderful touchscreen and the key OS operating system that I'm sure we'll come on to later. And the way that that's been packaged up, it's just gonna make all of those existing features much easier to use and much more intuitive. So that's the kind of bedrock that we started to build upon. Then we have a couple of other applications that I know Zach has already alluded to that kind of turn this device into much more than just a hardware wallet. It's, I think I think Zach, you also coined the term a Swiss Army knife for your personal security, which I'm a big fan of.
So the additional application that we've got that turned this device into a a kind of security device rather than just a hardware wallet, we're gonna have a 2FA codes app where you can store all of your important 6 digit 2FA codes. These are typically used as a, again, 2FA, a second factor authentication for you to be able to log in to various different accounts online. You might, secure your access to your Exchange or to your Amazon account or or anything like that. And tangential to that, we're also gonna have a security key application. This is again a type of 2FA that some people use to, again, secure their online accounts.
You know, the most common one that most people would have heard of would be a YubiKey, which is like a physical, almost USB drive looking device where you need to have physical access to that and you need to either tap it onto your phone or to physically insert it into your laptop when you're trying to log in to Google or Amazon or one of your online accounts. The point here is that having physical possession of that item is how you prove that you are who you say you are when you're able to log in. So that's where the additional security comes from. So, yeah, you're gonna be able to have some virtual versions of those within Prime so that you can again secure your different online accounts. And as I alluded to earlier, you can also interact with those via NFC by, again, tapping Prime onto the back of of back of your phone or by using the USB c cable and inserting or connecting Prime to your computer as well.
The next application we have is the file browser app, which is as as the name suggests, is a place for you to securely store all of your important files. Passport Prime is gonna ship with 50 gigabytes of user available storage for you to store, well, anything you like essentially up to and including that 50 gigabyte limit. One really cool part of the file browser application is what we're calling AirLock, which you can look at as kind of a quarantine area for the files that you've got stored on your Passport Prime. What this AirLock feature enables you to do is let's say you've got 25 gigabytes worth of your most secure files on Prime. You don't wanna be able to somebody to just grab that Passport Prime device, plug it into their computer, and and then start taking files off it in the same way that they would a typical USB storage device.
Yeah. What you can do is only place the files that you want to share with an external, you know, let's say, a computer or a phone into that airlock so that they're in the quarantine area so that only those files are accessible. Everything else that's stored on the the device that is not in the airlock is kind of kept on the locking key and is inaccessible by the connected device.
[00:16:04] Unknown:
You've actually gotta access that device, put in your PIN code and everything so that you can get to that bit, then put it into the airlock so it's like a separate part, and then you can transfer it. Yeah. Precisely.
[00:16:16] Unknown:
And then the final application that we'll have at launch is the Seed Vault app, which allows you to create new seeds for your various different Bitcoin wallets. You can also temporarily load seeds to interact with them like you would on the, Passport Gen 2, where you can just kind of, like, throw a seed into the device, sign a transaction, and then it's forgotten. Yeah. And a cool additional feature is that we're now also gonna be able to allow you to import any existing seeds so that you've got Passport Prime as an additional form of backup for those. So let's say you have your samurai wallet with its own seed. You've got a cake wallet with its own seed. You've got a blue wallet with its own seed. They're all different mobile wallets.
Rather than being forced to replace those wallets by a BIP 80 5 kind of deterministic seed to be able to have them stored on the existing device, what you can do with Passport Prime is just take those existing seeds. There's no need to migrate, and you can just add them into the seed vault app of Passport Prime to have them stored securely there on the device so that Passport Prime can be the kind of guardian or the custodian of all of your different mobile wallet seeds as well, irrespective of whether they were generated in a kind of key manager or BIP 80 5, fashion.
[00:17:32] Unknown:
That's a really nice one for someone like me who fucks around and tests so many different wallets all the time, and then you have to do a backup and you store that somewhere. You're, like, just swimming in these different backups and all over the place, and it is an absolute fucking pain in the ass. So something like this, just to have everything accessible and backed up together, the chance of having any loss of funds or not being able to access something
[00:18:00] Unknown:
is much, much lower. Yeah. Agreed. It's a a feature I'm certainly looking forward to adding into my kind of security architecture and and the way in which I look after my own seeds and also my my family seeds as well. It's, gonna be a bit of a game changer for me. Zach, I don't know whether you wanted to jump in and see if I missed any of the core apps or whether there's any features within those core apps that I might have missed off.
[00:18:21] Unknown:
No. I think you hit the no on the head. As you can see, it is a very different kind of device, and it's why we're not calling it a hardware wallet. I think people probably when they saw our teasers for the event beyond the hardware wallet, they may have thought either we were gonna make something completely different, like, you know, like an I've seen like a node or a phone. Oh, yes. So many people have asked me, is it a node? Yeah. Or they think that it's just gonna be a new passport, and it's just and we're just kinda overhyping on the marketing side. But we try not to over hype. It's really a new category of device.
We're calling it a personal security platform, which I think is a fair name. You know, we're not trying to, like, you know, make it exaggerated or make it seem, you know, you know, bigger than it is. But no one before has taken these disparate fragmented device categories and rolled them up into 1. So, like, personally, in my setup, I'll use multiple hardware wallets. I will use, tons of 2 f a codes, both 6 digit 2 f a codes, and then YubaKeys for a couple things. But and actually have these, I have a couple of the open source ones too, like solo key and nitro key. And the problem with those is you cannot back them up, and so you have to have 2 of them. And if you want to use these YubaKeys or security keys with something like say your Icloud account where you can turn on advanced data protection and you can actually end to end encrypt everything Apple requires that you have 2 of them because you can't back them up. So Apple's like we can't only let you connect one of them because if you lose that, you're you're never getting back into your into your Icloud account. So you need to have at least 2. So now you're now you have, you know, multiple hardware wallets, 2 YubaKeys, you have your Google Authenticator or one of these other authenticator apps on your phone with, you know, dozens of codes. Some of those codes I want on my phone. Right? Like, I don't know. I it's not something I don't care about, like a random website. You know?
But some of them I don't want on my phone. If it's something really important, if it's like, if it's Twitter, do I really want my Twitter 2FA code on my phone that is my primary device for using Twitter? You know, the whole point of these 2FA codes was that, you know, you're supposed to get it offline onto a device that's more secure. And so as people's phones have become their primary computing devices, I do not think it makes sense for, you know, every 2 f a code to be living on your phone. And then also, you know, we as as a company, the founders use these hardware encrypted flash drives to store some important data. They're like a $100 on Amazon for 64 gigs. And, you know, they're not they're probably made in China, and they have a little keypad on them, which is so cool because you can, like, plug it into your computer or your phone. You can type in your PIN code that you set. You know, it's a pain in the ass to set because there's no screen or anything. So you have to, like, you know, follow the the instruction card when you set it up. But then at least you have, you know, hardware encrypted storage, and you can use that for important keys that you would never wanna keep, you know, on a computer. So things like firmware signing keys for current gen passport. Right? Like, we don't keep those on a live computer, but there's no kind of device we can store them on. So we're we we don't wanna store them on, like, a, you know, a laptop or something even if it's offline, so we have to resort to these kinds of tools. So now that's like $600 worth of stuff I just mentioned, maybe 5, $600.
[00:21:52] Unknown:
Not only is it $600, but it's also multiple devices that you've gotta keep somewhere. You have to worry about losing them, worry about them breaking. A lot of those things are closed source. That keypad thing had been suggested to me for something else. And when I was looking into them, I couldn't find anything that was open source, and that worried me. Yep. It's not just the money. It's just, like, it's so annoying having to track multiple devices for multiple different things, and you end up having stuff scattered all over the place. So, yeah, just having one one device that you know how it works, you know, the operating system, you know, that it's open source.
I mean, for me, it's it's very, very appealing. Just streamlining
[00:22:38] Unknown:
things and taking the complexity out of stuff. Yeah. No. I mean, I'm in the exact same camp, and I think a lot of us ultra early adopters are in the exact same camp where, you know, we're used to juggling all these different devices. And, you know, if we have to go look at an instruction sheet for how to set something up or, you know, YubiKey is notoriously don't have any good setup process or companion app. And so people have no idea how to set them up. They buy them. They plug them into their computer. The computer, you know, thinks it's a keyboard or something, and you get on, like, a Mac, you know, pops up with, like, some, you know, some keyboard setup screen, and you're like, what the hell am I supposed to do next to set this thing up? You know, I think you hit the nail on my head. So one of it is is trying to simplify, you know, your life, right, allow you to secure your entire digital life just with one device. So that's that's one part of it. But then another part, like I mentioned, is trying to save some money because, you know, if you need to have all these different devices, it's gonna get pretty expensive. And then if you lose 1, like you lose a YubiKey, there's no way to back it up. So you have to just go buy a new one because, you're in a very difficult place if you lose one of the 2 that you've connected to an account because, sometimes there's no recovery options if you lose both of them. Right? So you have to go rush to buy a new one and and so on. But then also, I think there's just this idea of making things more approachable and accessible to more people. Like what we just described, no wonder most people are not using hardware wallets. No wonder most people are using, SMS based 2FA still. I'm sure, like, 90 plus percent of people, right, are still just getting text messages. And you basically have to go watch tutorials and, like, spend a 100 hours learning how to do all this stuff if you want to have this level of security. I personally think in this world that we're in and where we're headed over the next decade and beyond, you know, more and more people using Bitcoin, more and more people using other, tools that rely on keys, more and more people using, different kinds of multifactor authentication.
You know, online accounts, you have to really be careful about protecting that, especially if it's someone's, like, Exchange account, you know, that they're using or hell. I mean, your people's iCloud and Google accounts are also becoming, like, their most important accounts. Like, they literally have their entire life on there. You know, you could tell them, well, watch this tutorial and read all this stuff and, you know, buy 2 YubiKeys, and this is how to set up advanced data protection, you know, on Icloud. Or you can say, we're gonna give you a device. It's gonna allow you to do everything. Its functionality is gonna grow with you over time. You're gonna be able to customize it, you know, how you want. You're gonna be able to back it up, and you're gonna be able to buy it from a company that can give you, you know, really great support and answer any questions you have if you need it. And you get to buy it from one place. You don't have to go buy, you know, 5 different things from different companies and then figure it all out. We will help you. We will guide you on that journey. I think a lot of people that that's gonna resonate with, and I hope it's gonna allow more people to take these first steps to, you know, much better security and much better sovereignty.
[00:25:30] Unknown:
Even if you take out the idea that you can store all your keys on there and everything, just those extra features alone for someone like me make it worth it because I've bought the YubiKeyz. I've set up Bitwarden and done all that shit. And then I've got annoyed with it and had problems with it and gone out of fuck this. I'm not doing it anymore. And just, like, I try and do things in a proper way and try and do things as well as someone like you or q or others would do, but I often fail because I'm busy. I'm not that technical. And when it's in one device with an operating system that you understand, a bit like when people say, oh, why don't you move away from Apple? I just know how it works.
I'm just comfortable with it, and I think this is probably gonna be a very similar thing. It's like you have a a certain amount of comfort, which is important when you're messing around with things that really matter to you. So,
[00:26:25] Unknown:
I'm excited. I'm definitely gonna be getting one of these myself and simplifying things a lot. Yeah. I'm, definitely looking forward to to getting my hands on one properly as well. One thing that's worth spelling out and maybe is a great segue into Zach giving us the lowdown on KeyOS, all of those cool features that we've just been talking about. There's a reason I called them the core apps because they are very much just the starting point. We've architected the firmware or the the operating system of this device in such a way that we've kind of laid the bedrock and then what else you can achieve with this device. The possibilities are almost endless.
And I think that starts with KeyOS, which is the operating system that powers Passport Prime. So I think, Zach, you're probably much better suited than me to kinda give us the lowdown on what KeyOS is and and then maybe flow into the developer platform and what that enables for the wider ecosystem.
[00:27:18] Unknown:
Yeah. For sure. So why this has taken us 2 years to build instead of a year that we we actually thought it would take us about a year. Of course, that that did not happen. And, I think I think it's because we decided to do a new operating system. I'm extremely excited about this. One of my cofounders and our CTO, Ken, and I have been talking about doing a micro kernel based operating system since the same year we started the company, and and when we were talking about it's from late 2020. And KeyOS is I think I don't usually like to make the claim of first because, you know, usually there's someone else that has done it first. But I think we're gonna be the 1st mass production micro kernel operating system in a consumer product, and it's all written in Rust as well, which a lot of the developers are going to love.
[00:28:11] Unknown:
It's my favorite language. Yeah. I love Rust.
[00:28:16] Unknown:
So just to try to take a step back as to what that means. You know, micro kernel is, there's been there's been a bunch of projects like this over time, and some of them are used, I think, in more enterprise or commercial applications. But it's a way to make a operating system that's a little bit more modularized and, you know, resilient where every single thing in the operating system, at least how we do it on Kios, It's its own little we call them servers, but you can also think of it as like little apps. So it's like the operating system is like a collection of all these little apps that are communicating with each other. And the way they communicate with each other is they pass messages to each other. And so everything is completely modularized, and so we have to, you know, we have to write drivers for all these components in Rust because every single part that goes into the device, every single hardware component, you know, needs a driver. So each driver, you know, is is modularized.
If something crashes, it comes back online without taking down the rest of the system. So, you know, developers have been really into microkernels for a long time, especially the idea, like, on a desktop class device, you could have something that is way more performant, but way less likely to crash, and it makes things, you know, much more modularized and resilient. But there's a huge security benefit to it as well because we have this operating system that, you know, the only way that these different components and pieces of the operating system can communicate with each other is actually passing messages to each other. So it's called message passing. The OS manages that. And so the OS can help make sure that the different components and the different apps and everything running on top of it are only able to pass certain messages to each other or communicate with each other in a certain way. So it kinda locks down all the communications. A great way to think about it is, you know, you use your iPhone and you install a new app and it asks you permission to use, you know, the microphone or the camera or Bluetooth. So on a similar basis, but maybe even more broad, every single app running on KeyOS has a set of permissions that is given to it by the operating system. And so the OS is able to manage all those permissions at a very granular level.
And then taking a step further, we're using a security processor on the device. We're actually not using the same processor that we use in in Passport. We're using, well, it's by Microchip, which is that same company that makes the secure element. But it's, it's called a security MPU or microprocessor, and it has a lot of really deep security features. One of those is memory management or an MMU, where the operating system is able to actually sandbox apps, like fully sandbox them, which is exactly what you expect from your phone or, like, your modern Linux or Mac or Windows computer where, you know, on an iPhone, every single app is in its own sandbox, and apps cannot talk to other apps. The OS is what manages their permissions, and the OS is what gives them access to do things.
Likewise, on Passport Prime running KeyOS, every single app is in a sandbox. So you can very quickly understand how we're able to enable this permissionless open 3rd party developer ecosystem because even if you have a malicious app from a third party there's nothing it can do. Right? It can it can live within its own sandbox and be malicious but it's unable to affect other apps, and it's unable to get any kind of information from the operating system that it shouldn't have. So if you compare that with, like, Ledger, Ledger's operating system, bolos, is built on a 30 year old smart card technology.
It's the same kind of stuff that's in your credit card. And it's the biggest reason why ledger devices are so slow because it's running in this very constrained low performance smart card environment. It's also the reason though there's like no memory, and you have to install and uninstall apps, and you have to open an app and then close an app. And apps have to go through the Ledger review process. You cannot just submit an app to Ledger and have it be published as a developer. You need to go through the review process because the Ledger team needs to make sure that there's no malicious code in your app. Because if the app is malicious, it's able to just grab the master seed. Right? Because you have one seed for your Ledger device, and that seed is used by all the apps on Ledger, all the different coins, you know, that that people are using. And that's like a scary environment. And so what we do is for all of our apps, we're empowering the developers to either say, you know, user can import their own seed into that app, and it lives in the sandbox. So maybe they have an existing seed or something they wanna migrate in, Or the app can ask the operating system for a hardened child seed, meaning the OS gives the app a child seed, but the child seed cannot be used to go calculate the master seed. So the app gets its own sandbox. And so that's one of the coolest things about Kios. And, we've been working on this for 2 years, and, you know, the first thing everyone's gonna wanna know is who do we clone?
And so, you know, this is important. We found this amazing open source project by these guys called Bunny and Zobs. Bunny is a famous hardware hacker. They had a crowdfunded project called, Btrusted or precursor, and they're working to try to build a device that enables secure communications. It has it almost looks like an old school BlackBerry. It has a full QWERTY keypad and so on. I think I think Bunny did some interviews with some of the Bitcoin podcasts a couple years ago talking about the product because they were saying, oh, this could be so cool for, you know, hardware wallet type use cases. They built an operating system called Zeus, XOS, Zeus OS. And that's the Rust microkernel that basically became the base of KeyOS.
But we had to port it from RISC 5, which is like the a chip architecture it was made for, so we ported it to ARM. We did a ton of work on top of it, including creating full color graphics and having all those graphics libraries in place and so on, writing drivers for all our components and building out all these apps for the different functionality. And we are also the number, I think, 5th and 6th largest contributors now to the project on GitHub. So it was great because the first thing we did when we said we really want to do this micro kernel on Rust is we started looking at the different projects. You guys probably know System76. Yeah. Their, like, lead engineer makes another one of these Rust micro kernel OSes called Redox.
His name is Jeremy Soller. He also did some Bitcoin podcasts a couple years ago when everyone was really interested in these different kinds of open source projects and, you know, next gen operating systems and next gen hardware devices. And, that one we decided not to build on because it it didn't fit exactly what we were looking for. But Zeus, Ken, and I saw it, and we're like, oh, man. This thing is basically perfect. We can use this as the as the foundation on which to build this operating system. So I think almost as, like, stole a lot of Zeus OS in the core, but I almost think of it maybe as you could say KeyOS is either like, an adaptation of it or maybe the first major distro, you know, similar to how Yeah. You have Linux as, like, the core OS, but then you have Ubuntu or other things like that. But, yeah, we're we're really excited about it, and it really is like a next gen operating system as opposed to building on, like, really old legacy stuff like smart cards.
[00:35:43] Unknown:
That's really cool. The fact that people can build on this and that it's open, it reminds me a little bit of oh, what's the load that I'm running at the moment? Q. Start 9? Yeah. Start 9. How they have this, like, community section where people can actually, build extra applications to go in there. That's pretty exciting that people are gonna be able to do something like this, because I'm sure some amazing stuff is gonna come out of that as well.
[00:36:11] Unknown:
Yeah. Let's, let's just get it over with, and, you know, everyone's gonna call us shitcoiners now.
[00:36:17] Unknown:
But,
[00:36:18] Unknown:
the first so we we also announced that the first third party app on KeyOS is going to be
[00:36:26] Unknown:
Cake. Oh, very nice. Yeah. Full integration
[00:36:29] Unknown:
with Cake Wallet. What that means and why apps on Passport Prime are actually different than what people are used to is that we're working with the Cake team to extend the user interface that the Cake user base, which is actually over 500,000 users, which is That's a lot. Incredible. Right? So, like, you know, the Cake users are already familiar with the Cake app on their phone. So shouldn't they just be able to use a similar UI and similar terminology and and see what they're used to on the hardware device? So we're gonna be enabling all developers, you know, starting with Cake, to bring their logo, bring their UI, bring all that terminology and and functionality that their users are already familiar with onto Passport Prime as an app. And so we're focusing on Monero first, but I'm sure we'll end up, you know, supporting all the different coins that Cake supports.
When I say we, I mean that the Cake team will be able to permissionlessly develop this app, And we are just making the hardware, the operating system, the SDK, you know, and the documentation. And it's so cool because we as a team now get to focus on building up the best platform and helping all these different third party developers onboard, and then they're going to figure out what they wanna build and how it's gonna extend Passport Prime's functionality. So I think Cake is a perfect first partnership and first third party app to be running on Passport Prime because, one, it's so in line with our values and ideals. Of course, Seth is, you know, there now, you know, leading a lot all the day to day operations.
But also the Monero space has been starved for any kind of good hardware support. And I know I've I've talked to them about how difficult it's been to try to get Monero working with Ledger, which is hilarious because they have this Ledger integration, which I hear is is kind of rocky for getting that working, and they can't even get Monero working yet. Like, that's insane. And and it's a it's a perfect example of how Ledger's developer ecosystem, while it's the only developer ecosystem in the space, is so frustrating and all we ever hear is developers complaining about Ledger. You go on to Twitter, you type in Ledger. You You can just view pages and pages and pages of developers complaining about, you know, the SDKs, the apps, the libraries, all this stuff. And so I think we can get a best in class integration with Cake, and that app is going to help inspire hopefully, so many other wallet developers to come work with us, you know, build an app, have an incredible integration, you know, with your app, and allow your users to access cold storage
[00:39:19] Unknown:
in a very seamless way. That's awesome. Yeah. That's something I'm gonna be using as well. Because, yeah, I, like, I don't know anyone who uses Monero who even bothers using Ledger. Like, everyone just has it on hot wallets, then they have some concerns. So this is, this is something that many, many people are gonna benefit from. And what I like about it is it's not taking your focus away from what you guys do so well. It's just opening the door for others to come and develop exactly what's needed for their user bases on your platform, which is a much better setup than you saying to me, like, yeah. We're gonna add this, and we're gonna add that, and da da da. And I'd be thinking,
[00:40:05] Unknown:
maybe I'm a bit concerned that you lose your way or you don't focus on the key things that I really want from you guys, which isn't the case with us. Yeah. That's that's the entire point. We are a very small but focused team. We understand that there is a a huge need for people to store things other than just Bitcoin, like security key, 2FA codes, Monero, etcetera, etcetera. And for us to try and achieve all of the possibilities that Passport Prime is capable of with, you know, 20 people is just not achievable. Like you say, we would quickly lose our way and be spread way too thinly. What this kind of architecture has enabled us to do is remain focused on what we believe are aligned with our ideals and focus on what we perceive to be the important things, like Bitcoin and security keys and 2FA apps and things like that, and obviously, incredible UX. But also leaving the door open to all of the other wonderful incredible teams that exist in the wider ecosystem that have their focus in their area for their customers. It's the perfect marriage of, hey, bring your expertise or throw it into our beautiful, easy to use hardware. It's a match made in heaven.
[00:41:11] Unknown:
Yeah. I really like that. It's really cool. There'll be some people who'd be listening to this, and they'll be thinking, okay. It can do all this stuff, and it all sounds amazing. But does this open or could it open potential attack surfaces in the sense of how this is connecting to things? It's not gonna be air gapped in quite the same way something like a passport would be because it can do a lot more. There's that trade off. You're not just doing PSBTs and scanning QR codes. You can plug this device in, and you have other connection options.
So could you talk about that and how you've thought about doing more without opening yourself up to problems?
[00:41:56] Unknown:
Definitely. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think well, first, this is quite a departure from Passport because Passport was the 1st mainstream air gapped Bitcoin hardware wallet. I think I mean, there was the Respector DIY before Passport. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we may have been the second one. And of course, since we launched, there's been other devices that have come out that are air gapped. There's been, of course, SeedSigner, which I don't think I would even really compare, you know, to what we're doing, but of course, using the same QR codes. Jade implemented the QR code scanning.
There's outside of the Bitcoin space. There's that, Keystone that Yeah. You know, has, implemented the same QR codes. And so I think the air gap is the best security that you can have. But, also, I think that you can try to learn from that model as to what's actually happening with the air gap. You know, how's that working? And you can try to apply it to wireless communication, which sounds like a crazy thing to say. It does a little bit. But So let me, yeah, let me walk you through it because Passport Prime's primary way of communicating with your phone is through Bluetooth, which for me Bluetooth was something that I would never touch. I would always tell friends and family, you know, if you're gonna use a Ledger device, don't use the Ledger device with Bluetooth in it. Blockstream Jade also uses Bluetooth, which scares the hell out of me because it's running a processor that, the processor is the Bluetooth chip. So, like, there's no separate there's no separation. Right? The like, on Jade, the processor that runs the the operating system or the firmware, it's not really an OS, so, like, the firmware also has the Bluetooth on it and also can supports Wi Fi, but there's no Wi Fi antenna attached.
So what we want to do was try to bring the security benefits of an air gap, but do it over Bluetooth and kind of bypass all of the concerns that we had about Bluetooth. The biggest concern about Bluetooth for me is that as soon as you get into these wireless protocols like Bluetooth, Wi Fi, or cellular, you have black box code on the chip. You have these, like, blobs of closed source code, and that's just how it is once you get into wireless communications. So our first thought was like, well, that's bad because we have no idea what it's doing. There's no way in hell we could have a chip that has Bluetooth on it that is running QoS that is the, you know, the main operating system on Prime. So we thought, okay, let's put a separate chip on the device. You put a separate Bluetooth chip on the device so that you now have this the security processor that's running QoS, which is fully open source. And then you have the Bluetooth chip is still on the same circuit board, but it's separate and it's running, you know, very minimal Bluetooth firmware.
So that's what we did. But then you have the issue of what if I still don't trust the Bluetooth chip? What if the Bluetooth chip is able to intercept communications? Right? Because I'm sending I'm sending communications between the Passport Prime and the smartphone through Envoy or through maybe future apps, right, that are gonna connect to it. So how do I know that the Bluetooth chip is not getting in the middle and is is intercepting things or reading things or trying to exfiltrate things. Right? Because there's so many potential issues that it could do if you know, it's running untrusted code and it's it's Bluetooth. There may be vulnerabilities or something in the Bluetooth stack that's happened before. So what we're doing is actually using a QR code exchange during setup to exchange keys between the phone and Passport Prime. So, you know, like, PGP keys. Yeah. So it's encrypted the data.
Exactly. So, you know, one user says, here's my public key. Other user uses that public key often to encrypt their public key and then send it to the, you know, back. So users exchange public keys, then they save those, and then they encrypt all communication to each other. So we're doing a similar thing, but we're doing it actually with a quantum resistant encryption method, you know, because everyone wants you know, everyone's so worried about quantum computing now. But we thought let's just do the the best possible, you know, encryption method that we can. And so we're calling it not Bluetooth, but we're calling it quantum link, which is our, you know, fun marketing term. And what's happening is with the QR codes, you exchange public keys, and then you encrypt all traffic, everything.
So the Bluetooth chip has no idea what it's getting. It's getting already encrypted data, and then it's forwarding that to the processor running Kios. And then it's getting the data from KeyOS and forwarding it, you know, to your smartphone, and it's just passing these blobs of encrypted data, and there's nothing it can do. Right? Because if you think about, okay, what could a malicious Bluetooth chip do here? It could say, I don't wanna send the data, but then you're gonna know something's wrong. It's gonna error out. You could say, I'm going to try to change the data, but KeyOS and Envoy will only accept data that's signed by the keys.
So if it's not signed, it's it's not gonna accept it. It's just gonna throw it out and refuse to look at it. So it's like a totally blinded messenger, basically. Yeah. We considered calling it the original name was blinded Bluetooth, actually. Okay. So it's funny you said that, but we decided it wasn't, you know, friendly enough from a marketing perspective.
[00:47:28] Unknown:
No. Quantum link sounds sick. It sounds like proper
[00:47:32] Unknown:
proper futuristic. That does Yeah. So Quantum Link Bluetooth is is what we're calling it. So it's it's essentially the principles of an air gap applied to the Bluetooth connection where the the Bluetooth chip is literally separate in the device and just passing already encrypted messages. So, you know, I can't tell you, okay, this is better security than, you know, an air gapped Passport. I don't think I would say it's worse either. I think it's just different. And the great thing about, you know, everything we do is that it's all open source, and it's, of course, built on this operating system, KiOS, that is really designed for embedded security running on a processor that has a lot more embedded security features. You know, things like, active tamper protection we have now. If you try to take apart the device, it wipes itself, which is really cool.
And so yeah. And so, like, it's it's a different device. It is wireless. It might make people nervous. Now, of course, you could you could turn it off. You have the ability to enable or disable, Bluetooth, USB data, NFC, all through the UI. But I think what's gonna happen is I think people are gonna end up using Passport Prime. And then if you're a little bit more hardcore, if you have larger amounts of Bitcoin, maybe you put it in a multisig. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's how you secure that because already people are less comfortable, of course, with storing all their eggs in one basket. But I think from my perspective, I'm really comfortable with it. I look at it as we took all the issues that we had with Bluetooth, and we said, like, let's kinda reinvent the way we do this this protocol.
And I actually am really, you know, happy about how we did it, and I think that the competitors are gonna be really surprised by how we did it. And I bet you a lot of people are gonna end up doing this too.
[00:49:17] Unknown:
I have the same feeling. And the other thing I was thinking as you were going through that is, yes, people are gonna be nervous. And if I'm totally honest, like, there's a little bit of nerves with me, I wouldn't be putting all my my eggs in one basket even though, I trust what you and Q are doing and the rest of the team. Still be like, I'm not gonna do that yet. But what will happen is you luckily have some really childish haters who are gonna try and do absolutely everything that they can to shit on this product and tell everyone that it's insecure. And what that means is because you're actually open source Mhmm. They can check this out and try and fling as much shit as they can at you. My guess is after a few months, they'll fail, and then everyone will go, okay. Now we can have some more trust. The fact that it can be attacked, which we know it definitely will be by certain people, That gives me some extra confidence, actually.
[00:50:14] Unknown:
We can probably think of all the FUD. I don't know, Q, if you have some ideas about about the FUD. But, I mean, they're gonna say it has a larger attack surface. They're gonna say that the foundation guys, you know, have talked about the benefits of an air gap for years, and now all of a sudden they're using Bluetooth. They're gonna say we're becoming shitcoiners now Yeah. And that, you know, you can't trust us anymore. They're gonna look to see, you know, who we copied this device from. Maybe they'll say, oh, we it, you know, it looks a lot like, some other touchscreen, you know, device. And they're gonna say, especially about the attack surface, oh, you can't just throw all this functionality, and it's gonna make it less secure.
But like you're saying, Max, like, they're gonna have to point out why that is and show that it is, and everything's open source.
[00:50:56] Unknown:
Yes. And name calling doesn't work. You have to actually prove that there's a vulnerability.
[00:51:04] Unknown:
My guess is that that doesn't happen, so it's gonna be interesting to see. Yeah. I wanted to chime in here while we're talking about the the Quantum Link Bluetooth. One thing for me as a as working in the the customer facing side of the company, I'm really excited about is what Quantum Link and that kind of active or secure Bluetooth connection enables from a user experience perspective. So me, personally, I'm a huge fan of a true air gap like we have in Passport Gen 2, our existing device. But whilst I believe we've done a wonderful job of making that as easy and approachable as possible, You do eventually come up to a a brick wall where that physical air gap presents you with UX hurdles that unless you breach the air gap, you just can't get around it. So paint a little bit of a picture. To set up a Passport Gen 2, you have a two way QR code scan for the supply chain check. You then have the encrypted backup feature where you insert the SD card, you write down your 20 digits, then you write down your seed words if you want to, then you have another QR code dance to connect with Envoy. So there's quite a lot of back and forth between, you know, manual back and forth between different accessories with your phone. It's all a very manual process, and that's the only way we can achieve that and still maintain that true air gap. Now with our Quantum Link, once you have that first QR code, you know, that key exchange to secure that Bluetooth tunnel, everything after that is automated, and these devices are perfectly in sync. So that is gonna make the onboarding literally the easiest possible for one of these types of devices on the entire market. I'm very, very excited to see people actually get to use this in the wild to see how they can go from, you know, the device not being set up to having their own personal security device with all of the backups in place, which I'm gonna come on to in a second in a matter of minutes. Like, it's it really is gonna be a game changer. So if you're kind of thinking about Orange pulling people and you're a little bit worried about giving them an an air gap device because of the UX hurdles that I've kind of just alluded to, Prime really is gonna lower that barrier to entry. Typically, right now, what we have is people going for kind of closed source solutions like the Bitkey is a great example.
I know Zach shared some very detailed thoughts on on the Bitkey and and its shortcomings. But from a UX perspective, I get why newcomers are flocking towards that. It doesn't have a screen. It connects, I think, via Bluetooth to a phone app, and also you have on the device itself is a fingerprint scanner. Now again, that brings with it some limitations, but from a UX perspective and that feeling of having your funds secured, like, I understand why people, you know, are flocking towards that because they just made it easy. We're gonna be giving that same sort of ease of use without all of the closed sourceness and, you know, crucially having a screen on the device feed to actually verify what the hell is going on on this on this offline device. Yeah. The not having a screen thing, like, yeah, it might be easy to set up, but that just immediately
[00:53:53] Unknown:
just I cannot suggest to anyone that I care about to use that device.
[00:53:58] Unknown:
Like, I'd rather than just have it on a hot wallet. It seems fucking crazy to me. Yeah. I agree. And it it uses, NFC, I think, q. Yes. You're correct. Yeah. Yeah. But same same kind of principle. But another thing I wanna add, it's not just about the onboarding. So Q sees a lot of the onboarding challenges, which everything you said totally spot on. The air gap can actually be very confusing to newcomers. It's very hard for them to understand sometimes what device they're supposed to look at to perform the next step with the setup. Are you supposed to do it on your phone? Are you supposed to do it on the hardware wallet? But Yeah. All hardware wallets have this same problem, which is they're all stateless. Right? So hardware wallets, they don't know how much money or how much Bitcoin they're storing or how much crypto they're storing. They don't know what the exchange rate is.
And one of the most common questions for newcomers is, so wait. This device I'm holding in my hand, like, this is storing my Bitcoin. Right? Okay. Why does it know how much it's storing? And we know that. Right? Because, obviously, it's just storing the keys, and you need an online device to be able to, you know, look at the blockchain and and see the balances and then know the exchange rates and be able to tell you on the software wallet on your phone or on your computer, oh, you have, you know, 1 Bitcoin, and it's worth $100,000.
However, with quantum link Bluetooth on passport prime connected to the Envoy app, we no longer have to be stateless. And this doesn't affect anything from a security perspective because, you know, your keys are offline. Envoy could theoretically be compromised, and maybe it could lie about things. It could it could lie about the exchange rate, for example. But for convenience, we're gonna start sending some information in the background from Envoy to Passport Prime. So Passport Prime has some awareness of the world. One example of information is the time and the date.
Right now, one of the big issues with air gapped hardware wallets or signers is that they have no idea what day it is. And so when you sign a PSVT or a transaction, to SD card, the SD card file doesn't have the right time stamp. Like Mhmm. That's a total pain in the ass. It can be really confusing if you have a lot of signed transactions and you pop your SD card in, you know, like, wait a minute. Like, which is the new one? It doesn't even have the date and time. So first is we're able to send the date and time over Quantum Link to Passport Prime. So no matter what it's doing, you have the date and time. Now you know what else you need the date and time for? Six digit 2FA codes.
You cannot do 6 digit 2FA codes unless you have the date and the time, and that's how they sync up with the website you're using for login. So now we've solved multiple problems, right? The device is no longer stateless. Even if you have it shut off for a year, you turn it back on. As soon as it connects to your phone, Envoy sends it the, you know, the date and time as part of, you know, the update. But then we're able to start sending it more things. We can send it the Bitcoin exchange rate. So one cool thing we're doing with just for fun on the UI is for the Bitcoin wallet app. We're showing the Bitcoin price on the screen. Because why not? Right? You know, we have it on on Envoy. We can send it to Passport Prime, and you can have some sense that, you know, this is cool. Passport Prime, you know, knows what the Bitcoin price is. But what we're gonna do over the next several months and then, you know, probably later in in 2025 they start to send transaction information back down to Passport Prime and allow Passport Prime to send transaction information back to Envoy. So let's say you want to initiate a transaction.
You may want to scan the QR code of a Bitcoin address and send to it. Well, we're gonna enable you to do that with Passport Prime. You'll be able to scan the QR code with Passport Prime, and then Passport Prime can send that info to Envoy. You'll be able to, I hope, do even things like basic coin control features on prime as you're sending and signing transactions, and then it can send that data back to Envoy to get saved into your, you know, wallet and synced up. Oh, that's nice, actually.
[00:58:16] Unknown:
I can put paying queue back for beers, whatever, on the Passport Prime, and then that's gonna sync up to Envoy
[00:58:22] Unknown:
so that I have my labels all done correctly. It's even better than that, though, because let's say, multisig and you wanna receive to your multisig. The only way to be secure right now when receiving to your multisig is to verify the address from probably Passport, because none of the other hardware wallets, I think, have the ability to, you know, verify your multisig address like Passport does today, the current gen Passport. So you go into your app, let's say Sparrow, you click receive, you know, you get that new receive address at the new index, so you're not reusing addresses. Yeah. And then if you're a savvy user, you pull out your Passport, you go to verify address, you choose the multisig config and you scan the QR code and passport gives you a check, you know, check mark and says, you know, verified. And it tells you that index number. Yeah. Right. Tells you the index of the address. And you're like, okay, this address belongs to me. My software wallet is not lying to me, which by the way is exactly why Bitkey is so crazy.
You have to have a screen. You have to have a way if you're receiving to multisig, right, of verifying that the address is your address. Otherwise, you're putting a 100% of trust in the hot wallet, the coordinator. Yes. So what we're gonna be able to do on Passport Prime probably later in 2025, like I'm saying, this this is not gonna be available at launch, but we're gonna be able to hit receive on Passport Prime. It can check with Envoy in the background to make sure that it's giving you a fresh address. Yep. And then it can just show you the QR code on Passport Prime's screen. So you don't have to necessarily go into, you know, the software wallet. Now it's gonna for things like I I guess multisync maybe is not the best example because you're not using Envoy to coordinate that. Right? You might be using Sparo or some of the other ones. So there will be a part of it that is gonna be up to third party developers to support. So if Craig decided to, you know, support and build an app for Passport Prime and integrate that with Spiro tightly, that's an example of something you could do because you need to sync that address, you know, index with the coordinator.
But at least with single sig, you were gonna be able to do it as well. You won't have to verify addresses. And so the idea that, you know, for an important transaction, you could pull out Passport Prime and create a receive address and receive directly to it, and everything is synced nicely, and you don't have any address reuse. It's actually a really powerful feature. Yes. You could you can only do this stuff with background back and forth wireless communication. That's one of the main reasons why we really want to do Bluetooth, and we really want to figure out how we do it because we love the air gap. It's very secure. But from an onboarding user experience perspective, it can create a lot more challenges than you'd think, and q is at the forefront of, you know, dealing with that with with customers. And so we've seen a lot, you know, over the years.
[01:01:06] Unknown:
Yeah. Definitely. And that that verifying address thing, I think that's such a powerful feature. It's something that I really love in in the passport, just giving that peace of mind and making sure, as you say, like, there's not a problem with the software that you're using. You can just double check because, you know, you know people in the past have been done like that. They go and they send something, and then someone's, inserted a malicious address, and suddenly you get your funds swept. You sent to the wrong address. And, just having that built in that it does it automatically, because people forget or don't do it or don't know you can do it or whatever. That's, that's very, very nice.
[01:01:46] Unknown:
I know we, have talked at length about this Quantum Link Bluetooth, but another wonderful idea. I've just literally just popped into my head that this kind of active connection back to the phone enables. As you know, Max, I'm the resident Nosta shill on the Ungovitable Misfits crew. Oh, fucking hell. There we go. One of the unsolved problems of Nosta is key management. Right? Right now, what most people are doing is they have their NSec, which can be analogous to, you know, your Bitcoin private key. It's like the secret to access all of your Nostra stuff. Most people, if they wanna move apps, they're just pasting this into their various different apps on their phone or on their computer to be able to access all of their Nostra accounts. Right? If one of those websites or apps becomes compromised, your NSERC is burned and you lose your account and potentially thousands of followers and and all of your web of trust and your connections. Not ideal.
Now what if there was a a device that was able to secure the NSERC offline so that you could keep it secure? Of course. But also had a secure connection via, let's say, a Quantum Link Bluetooth back to your phone where your Nostra app lives so that you can do all of your Nostra ink on your phone. Oh, yeah. Or have that all important key segregation so that, you know, the Amethyst app on your phone or the the, Darmus app on your iPhone doesn't hold your private key. But you can still go and like and retweet and zap people and have those events signed seamlessly over Quantum Link Bluetooth by Prime without having to expose your private keys to an app on your phone. That's an open call to any developers listening to this. I'm happy to start off a bounty to get that built because I personally really wanna see that come to fruition.
[01:03:21] Unknown:
That's a very, very good point. That's something I've win every time that you show Nosta, I come back and say, yeah, but it's shit because I worry about having my that's not properly secure and not properly air gapped, And therefore, I don't wanna put any effort and energy into because at any point, it could be taken away from me, and I shut it down because of that. And that actually potentially can be solved with this, and that is pretty big.
[01:03:49] Unknown:
That's a no. That's a great point. I think I'm not as much of a Nostr expert as Q is, but I believe there's been 2 main proposals on Nostr to deal with the keys. The first of which was having a key that was derived from the the master key and valid for a specific amount of time. So you'd have to reauthorize your app, let's say, on a weekly basis from the master key. And the second one was almost running like a like a like a your own self hosted
[01:04:25] Unknown:
Right. HSM type thing, right, q, where you would you could give, you know, some kind of access. Aren't those, like, the only 2? And the first one ended up being killed, I think. Absolutely correct. Yeah. The the first one is dead in the water that everybody's moved away from it. It's everybody seems to be gravitating towards this kind of bunker scenario with the HSM like you said. And you've immediately just lost 99.9% of the population
[01:04:47] Unknown:
immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Immediately.
[01:04:49] Unknown:
In fairness, the the other solution that I personally use right now is that you have to use us, another separate app on the same phone that stores the private key. By Ample one. Exactly. Yeah. So one app stores the key and then the other app is like your Nostra browser. So for me, like Amethyst. And then whenever I take any action on Amethyst, it talks to the other app, which is still on my phone, and then it authorizes that locally. So you you can achieve that segregation. But, again, it's another app on your phone. If you lose your phone, you don't have a backup, like, you've lost everything.
[01:05:17] Unknown:
This is cool because we can enable this with Prime through third party developers where you could probably set up in a couple different ways. One way could be that the app on prime automatically signs whatever you send to it from the phone. So that the keys are living on prime, but you don't have to manually enter your PIN and type approve for everything. So that would be pretty cool. That's almost like a portable HSM functionality for Passport Prime. The other option would be that maybe you don't trust your phone, and you're posting to noster, and you actually want to have a chance to review and approve what you're about to post on your secure offline device.
Just like how you would do so when sending a bitcoin transaction, and then yeah, you would be able to to actually see that on Passport Prime's color 3 and a half inch high res touchscreen display, and confirm everything looks good, and then hit approve. And maybe you could even allow users to granularly customize those permissions. Now in some sense, this only works if you physically bring Passport Prime with you. I think there's going to be different types of use cases. I think some people are gonna want to treat it more like a hardware wallet where they keep it at home, you know, it's secure. Some people though are gonna say well this is doing all my 2 f a. I want this to go with me. And so maybe they won't store the majority of their Bitcoin on there because it's going with them, but they're still using it for, you know, Bitcoin wallet functionality and connecting to all their different apps. And then maybe they're using Bitcoin, in a multisig or or or stored on other devices, or maybe you have a a passport, you know, the current gen that's air gapped and you have passport prime that you take with you. Mhmm. I think QC is where I'm going with this. We have not announced this actually on the website. I did not announce it in the keynote, but we have designed some cases and accessories to go with it. They'll come out probably in q one. We'll announce more information about those.
1 is a wallet folio case where you have a couple credit card slots, and you could put the, you know, passport prime in one pocket, put your phone in another pocket. The other, which is my favorite, and we there's a running joke in the company that I'm the only customer for this because they, is I'm literally the only customer. I may I may be the only one to buy one of these. Well, I'm just not gonna buy one. I'm just gonna, you know, be given 1. But it's a holster accessory inspired by, you know, inside the waistband. Nice. Like eighties style. Well, no. I mean, so you could you no. Inside the waistband. More like like a concealed concealed carry. Carry. Yeah. Okay. You could clip it outside if you wanted to, 80 style, but the whole idea was that you clip it inside the waistband, and then you put passport prime in there. So no one has any idea that you have it. It's it's a it's a pretty slim device.
You know, maybe you have your firearm on your right side, your Passport Prime, you know, on your left side. And, it could be in the holster, and it can be communicating with your phone in real time in the background, and maybe you need to pull it out to, sign or authorize some important, you know, action.
[01:08:36] Unknown:
I was just thinking of you there. So now that people know Zack's gonna have this sort of concealed thing, he's gonna be the only customer. If someone then says, give me your prime now your prime of your life, you can say, okay. Yeah. I'll just get it out for you. And then you pull your actual concealed carry, which is quite a nice feature because they don't know which one's coming.
[01:09:00] Unknown:
Is it the left side or the right side? Yeah. Exactly. We've so we originally were considering calling it a portable security platform instead of personal because the idea was that you may wanna bring it with you. I don't think that made too much sense, but we're also considering potentially implementing some features that would and it won't be there for, you know, the v one release, but hopefully later in the year that would allow you to feel comfortable carrying Passport Prime with you while restricting some of the functionality to being in a specific location. And there's different ways we've talked about doing it.
Could be that you have a dock at home or an NFC tag or one of our NFC key cards, which we'll talk about, I guess, in a bit. I guess I have to segue to that next. That would allow you to say, well, I can only Passport Prime will only sign a transaction up to this much value unless I am at home. Because then that would allow you to to bring it with you and use it for all the multifactor authentication features while still having, you know, being able to store your entire Bitcoin stash if you wanted to, but locking the capabilities of spending it. Right? Locking the ability to spend it. Another thing, you know, we thought of was potentially using something in Envoy with geolocation because Envoy is fully open source. You could have confidence that you would enable location services on Envoy and that we can't see it. Right? It's just local to the app. And maybe having some kind of communication between the 2 where it would say, well, you know, Passport Prime needs to check with Envoy to make sure the user is in a specific location before you're able to sign. So maybe you authorize 2 locations, and you cannot sign over certain value unless you're in the location. So these are things that we're actually still exploring.
We don't have it all figured out yet. Very much open to feedback because we know that with all the great multifactor authentication capabilities and all of these features that we're just brainstorming now like Nostra Mhmm. Most people who use it are going to wanna take it with them. And we wanna make sure that, you know, your Bitcoin is not subject to, you know, a a $5 wrench attack where someone says unlock this thing, give me all your Bitcoin. The easiest answer would be, I'm sorry. I'm unable to do that. I have to be, you know, at a certain location or I have to, you know, tap this card to it, you know, or something like that. Yeah. Or just having
[01:11:33] Unknown:
having a a passport for savings, and and then you have this linked when you're out and about to your cake wallet and other things so that you can do your spends as you normally would. Exactly. I mean, that's how I would personally look at this device is, you you know, I'm not gonna put my life savings on a device that I carry around everywhere. No matter how clever and all this geo this and whatever, like, I just wouldn't do it. You know? I think the fact that it unlocks all these other capabilities means you are gonna wanna take it out and about, And maybe it's just like a second device that makes everything more secure and and simple and in in one place.
I know we're gonna get on to backups now. I just wanted to say before we do, this really appeals to me. It was one of my favorite things as q was going through the simplicity of it and the fact that you have some physical things that you can hide because I'm still a bit of a fucking caveman. And when you talk about, like, encrypted backups on SD cards and then having a separate code and another thing to store in another location, and it all gets more complex. I think the way that you guys have set this up for backups is a massive step up for people who want a little bit of simplicity with their security.
[01:12:52] Unknown:
Yeah. I'm happy to talk about that because when we look at what we've built with Passport Prime, it's not just one thing. You know, we have the new operating system, KiOS. We have Quantum Link Bluetooth for communication. We have all these different apps with some really cool security features like Q mentioned. My favorite still is the airlock, you know, and file browser where you protect yourself against a malicious computer. Yeah. But the backups is also probably one of the best features. What we do with Passport Prime is we still give you the physical tether as you were alluding to. You still have physical objects, but you don't have to write anything down. So you can go from 0 to fully set up in a couple minutes without writing down seed words or anything. The way we do that is we give you NFC key cards.
We actually give you 3 cards in the box when you buy passport prime. You don't have to pay extra. You know, it's it's kind of our it's one of our main, main approaches is is we wanna give you everything you need in the box. We don't wanna say you have to buy your USB cable. You know, you have to buy your you know, that kind of thing. I think we all know who does that. You know, you don't need to, name them on here. So how it works is that by default, Passport Prime chamirs your seed. So it breaks it into 3 parts. Do a 2 of 3 chimere setup.
If you opt into our backup service called magic backups, which we can talk a little bit more about. You only need 2 of the cards. So you can keep the 3rd one in case you lose a card, or we'll probably have some cool future functionality that we enable with these cards. So you grab 2 of the cards from the box. You tap 2 of them to passport prime. Passport prime puts 2 of the Shamir shares on the cards, and then it stores the 3rd share on Envoy on your phone. So why this is so convenient is because 90 plus percent of people using Envoy are using it well, we think we don't actually have the ability to collect all all the data, which is good, but we assume 90% of people using Envoy are already using Envoy magic backups where where it stores a little bit of information on Icloud or Google and end to end encrypted, and that's all backed up for you. So that means that that third Shamir share is gonna go into Envoy and be automatically backed up. So that's great because now you have these 2 physical cards, and you only need one of these cards if you lose passport prime or you break it. You need to buy a new one to replace it. You literally just tap one card to passport prime. It grabs the other Shamir share from Envoy over Quantum Link Bluetooth, and then it is able to recompile your seed on device, and then you have everything back. Now what makes this magic backups is that is an optional service that we think probably a vast majority of Passport Prime users will want to use is Passport Prime takes an encrypted backup on device of everything.
All of your settings, all of the metadata, things like the 6 digit 2FA codes, the derivation paths that tell it how to get your Bitcoin wallet, get your your virtual YubaKeys, all this stuff. You have this basically I I keep using the term blob of encrypted data because that's how so much of our services operate. Mhmm. But we encrypt all of it on Passport Prime and encrypts it with the seed words. Because this is a huge concern with these online backup services. Like, you look at Ledger recover. They actually just break up the seed words into 3 pieces and send them directly to the custodians,
[01:16:47] Unknown:
which is governments. Insane.
[01:16:49] Unknown:
Literally, the seed words are leaving the device. Right? Because the seed is leaving the device. It's being broken into 3 pieces. It's going online to custodians. Yes. Crazy. That's not what's happening here. Right? So the seed words are being broken into 3 parts. You store 2 of the cards. Mhmm. The 3rd is stored on the open source Envoy app. Right? So it's all auditable, you know, stored in the secure enclave of your phone. But this encrypted backup is just a blob of data and can be passed through Envoy to foundation servers. Mhmm. So foundation servers are storing this encrypted blob.
We don't collect anything about you. If you're using Tor with Envoy, we don't even know your IP address. Yeah. Not that we don't log it anyway if you're not, but we don't even know your IP address. We don't have a username. We don't have a password. We don't have an email address. We use exactly what we do already in Envoy where the user ID is a hash of your seed. And the only way you you could know the hash of your seed is if you have your seed. And so we store the seed hash, and we store an encrypted blob of data. So why this is absolutely incredible is because all the stuff that you're storing on Prime, especially with 3rd party apps and everything like that, it makes it really difficult if you lose your device. You don't wanna have to go set that up from scratch again. I mean, we weren't gonna spend, like, 8 hours, you know, setting it up. And it's exactly what happens to people, like, if they lose their ledgers. It's a hellish experience trying to get all set up again with your seed and getting the apps back on and everything like that. So literally, you tap a card and then everything comes back. It grabs the other share from Envoy. It downloads the encrypted backup blob, and locally on device, it decrypts it because it has your seed on device.
Mhmm. And everything comes back exactly how you had it. Your apps, your settings, your data, it's all right there. So it's really like Icloud backup and restore, but for your Passport Prime. It's that kind of user experience, and no one does anything like that right now. You literally just need one card. You tap it, and it's done. And so I'm, like, so excited about this because it solves a lot of the onboarding issues, but it allows you to still give people complete sovereignty. They are still holding the keys to the seed words themselves. They have the physical cards, but we benefit from the optional service. And that service is gonna be bundled in as part of Envoy Plus, which is gonna be our subscription offering.
Mhmm. We're gonna give a free 6 month trial to everyone who buys a Passport Prime, maybe longer, because one of the main reasons we're giving a trial, of course, is because we want people to try it out. The other reason is because we're not ready yet on the payment side. And we actually have to do a little bit more work to figure out how we can take the payments without being able to associate the payment with the with the user. Yeah. That is quite a difficult problem to solve, actually. We actually think we know how we're gonna do it, but it it's like we're not focused on that right now because we're so focused on getting Prime out. Right? And so it's something that we'll probably look at as well later in 2025. But the idea is that it'll be $5 a month if you wanna do this ultimately. And we'll probably add some more features to Envoy Plus as well, and we're still thinking about the feature set in general. We really want it to be something that's optional, but also something that is so value add that the majority of people will say, you know what? In order to get a full backup of everything, you know, I'm willing I'm willing to pay that, you know, $5 a month. And then we're, of course, you know, trying to make sure that you really feel like you're getting the value out of that and that we're adding functionality to that that's gonna get you excited where you feel like, you know, the the price is staying the same, but you're getting more out of it instead of what you see with all these companies where it's like the product is getting crappier and then they're just raising the subscription price. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:20:41] Unknown:
What I really like about this with the cards is someone doesn't have to write down their seed words, but they have something physical. I really like that because the problem I have, like, when I'm onboarding people who are new, you know, you sit them down. You say, right. If anyone gets hold of these seed words, you're fucked. So make sure that you stamp them into steel or do them onto washers, and you put this somewhere that no one's gonna find it. But the problem is someone only has to see it, and they can get swept. Whereas this, the card looks like nothing. No one even would know what it is. It's so easy to hide. People understand, okay. This is my key, but they're not constantly having the concern of someone seeing
[01:21:27] Unknown:
their seed words. And I think that is actually a massive deal. Yeah. Definitely. I'm very, very excited about this. And I wanted to give a couple of points of clarification just, so that nobody jumps to any conclusions here that, you know, if somebody's new to, to Foundation and doesn't, you know, know what we're about and that we're about openness and everything that Zach just mentioned, none of it's proprietary. The Shamir Secret Sharing scheme is an open standard. The underlying seed is a traditional bit 39 seed that if you're a more advanced user, you can go into the settings, grab that, and write it down or stamp it to steal, whatever you want. Like, it's all there for you. We just don't force people through that as part of the onboarding. There also might be a couple of listeners here that again might maybe more advanced that think, that sounds pretty cool, but you know what? I don't really wanna do all that cloud stuff. Of course, you can opt out of that if you don't want to. And that's the reason that we ship with 3 NFC cards. When Zac gave his explainer earlier, he mentioned that you use 2 cards and then the 3rd share goes on to the Envoy app. If you opt out of the optional cloud backup, that's why where the 3rd key card comes in, you just tap 3 cards instead of the 2, and then your sold back up for your, you know, the master seed for your Passport Prime is split across those 3 key cards. And then just as a in a similar to a multisix game where you would just go and store those at separate locations. And then when it comes to recovery time, you tap 2 of those cards onto the back of a of a new Passport Prime, and it restores everything in the same way. The caveat to that, of course, is that you don't get all of that magicness where all of the updates or etcetera all is automatically pulled back pulled down from the cloud, should I say. Now you can create your own kind of offline version of that where you pull the encrypted backup file off the device and then go install that somewhere else. So you can still back up the entire, you know, all of the metadata for the device. So all of the kind of overall benefits are possible for a more manual user that opts out of the cloud service. But again, it's just not as automatic and as magical as as the the example that, Zach, mentioned. And one final point on the NFC cards is that for all 3 of the cards that are shipped with the device, we also ship a Faraday sleeve for each of the cards as well to give each of those cards some protection from, all of the I guess, what would you call it, Zach? Solar flare. Yeah. I think things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like wireless attacks.
[01:23:45] Unknown:
Yeah. But then also if someone was somehow snooping for it, let's say Yeah. They went into your house and they had a giant modified special, you know, NFC antenna and they were trying to scan for the card. You wanna make sure that, you know, the card is undetectable. And so Yes. We actually designed these really nice Faraday sleeves, and they have a little label area on the back where you could even write something on it in case you're the kind of person that wants to, you know, remind yourself what this thing is. You know, you can grab a little Sharpie or something like that and just write on it. But, yeah, they're they're they're awesome, and,
[01:24:19] Unknown:
it was really important to us that if we're gonna do these NFC key cards that we also do, sleeves for each of them. Yeah. That's a nice touch. These key cards look so good. I kinda want us to do a credit card so that I can use one, like, every single day.
[01:24:33] Unknown:
It's very on brand. Right? The foundation credit card.
[01:24:38] Unknown:
The other thing that I wanted to touch on is just the actual hardware. The quality that you guys put out is always above and beyond what I see elsewhere, but it seems like you guys have, stepped it up again. Can you go through some of the changes and some of the, materials maybe that you guys have used for this?
[01:24:58] Unknown:
Yeah. Absolutely. We have stepped it up significantly, and I'm really excited about it. I think I mentioned before, you know, most of the devices anodized aluminum. Mhmm. And, we have this, you know, these rails running, the right left on top of the device that make it really easy to pick up the glass on the front and the back is Gorilla Glass. And on the back, we have our typical, or I should say signature digital deco pattern that's laser etched onto the glass with our, of course, foundation word mark and the vertical marquee, we actually call it. We still have the camera. So same camera, but you're gonna see a little bit better camera performance because the operating system allows us to provide a much faster user experience.
We still have our, you know, foundation logo that's, CNC'd onto the the back as well under the camera. So you'll see the same familiar design language there. And then we have a 3 and a half inch IPS display. So not OLED because OLED, you know, you have to go much more custom for and so on. Maybe one day we'll do OLED. But at least it's an IPS color display. It's touch screen. Multi touch of course. And it's it's high resolution. I don't know the exact resolution off hand, but it's enough where you're not gonna see the pixels if you bring it close to your face. So not as good as on your iPhone, but Mhmm. Way better than anything else you would see in the industry.
And you could still almost call it like a retina like display. Cause I'm bringing this thing up to my face and I still can't see any pixels. So it's really nice. We also have, a virtual home button underneath. So the way you navigate is very similar to, you know, an iPhone that had a home button where you you tap underneath the screen to go back home. The home button has 4 LED lights on it, so it can change color. We're probably not doing too much with color right now, but what I really am excited about is when you tap it, it has a haptic motor. You get that haptic feedback when you tap the button. Yeah. And it feels really nice. It's very subtle. It's not one of those, like, crappy old school Android phones where the whole thing, like, vibrates and shakes.
It's just a nice subtle little tap. We also have, which I had to actually as q can attest, I had to fight with the team to get this. We have a ambient light sensor that allows the device to automatically adjust the display brightness. Oh, nice. That's the only reason it's there. Maybe we can also use it for, like, entropy or something like that. Mhmm. But, it's I'm really happy we have that. So you'll see that little cutout in the, glass on the top left. And then inside the device, like I mentioned, we have, you know, the security chip from Microchip, the security microprocessor that's specifically designed for security applications.
It has a lot more security features than, like, the current processor that you'll find in passport today or cold card or some of these other devices. It has active tamper protection. It has armed trust zone, which is like a secure environment in the chip. We're not gonna be using that on day 1, but we are working to bring QoS into the trust zone environment as well, which is gonna be really cool. We have the same secure element series, the microchip 608 secure element. So very similar architecture to where we're storing some information on that so that not all your eggs are in one basket on the main processor. We also have the separate Bluetooth and separate NFC chips. We have 64 gigabytes of flash storage, 50 gigabytes of which is available to the user for the files app. We're reserving some extra just in case, you know, we need it in the future. Because maybe we're gonna have some users that wanna install like a 100 apps. We wanna make sure that there's plenty of storage and, you know, plenty of availability to expand the functionality because that's not something we can really adjust after shipping. So 64 gigs of storage, 50 gigs available to the user. We have a, rechargeable lithium ion battery. It is internal, so it's not user replaceable. So that's also a big shift compared to Passport today. So, you know, there's pros and cons to that. One of the biggest pros is that we've made the device fully gasketed, and so we hope it'll be fully waterproof. We're saying water resistant right now, but we are gonna go for the certifications and make sure this is as waterproof as possible. The goal is that you'd be able to submerge this in water and, you know, not not have any issues with it. So that's pretty cool. Do all your UTXO management in the bath.
The joke is that, you know, if if we get it right, we can do a nice marketing campaign. Right? Making boating accidents a thing of the past. Maybe we'll we'll do hire like a scuba diver, you know, or or something like that to retrieve the passport prime that falls in the ocean. I I think that's all the hardware elements, though. I think I hit on all of it. It's way more in-depth than what we've ever done. I mean, you open this thing up. The circuit board is packed so densely with components. The fact that we were able to get everything I just said in a circuit board that, in terms of circuit board area, is roughly the size of the current gen passport. Because the current gen passport has the battery stacked on top of the board, so the entire device is a circuit board under like, if you open it up. But this thing, there's a massive cutout in the circuit board for the battery.
So the battery actually sits side by side with the circuit board. So we just an incredible amount of engineering, all internal, you know, we didn't outsource it. We probably have some of the best electrical engineering in the space. It's a circuit board that is much closer to what you'd see in a modern smartphone than what you see in any of these hardware wallets today.
[01:30:43] Unknown:
I was just gonna touch on that battery thing because I was asking Q when he was going through it with me. I just thought I'd make a point on this is that even if, for whatever reason, someone can't get a replacement battery from you guys for some reason, you can still run this thing if you plug it in. So if someone was worried, like, oh, shit. Like, what if I can't get a battery like you can on the passport?
[01:31:06] Unknown:
For whatever reason, you could still power this thing on, and that wouldn't be an issue. Yeah. That's actually a good point. You could definitely do that. And then also, we'll probably have because it's all open source, of course, we'll have it. But we may offer in the future some program or something for battery replacement because the way that we're sealing the screen on is we're just dispensing a, like, a liquid gasket at the factory, and then we run it through the oven and it cures the gasket. So the entire screen is just, you know, essentially gasketed on with, like, an adhesive that turns into, like, it it it solidifies, but it also kind of turns into that rubbery gasket material. You'll be able to take a heat gun to it and pry off the screen just like you would with, you know, an iPhone screen replacement.
And there's tons of, you know, companies and usually local companies that offer that. And we could provide some kind of, like, kit in the mail, which is very common now for iPhone screen replacements or or smartphone replacements in general, where you could, like, lay a gasket back in there, you know, that just isn't adhesive, and you could, like, reseal the device yourself. Or you could take it to a place, or maybe we could offer a program where you, you know, you mail it to us or something like that. Now as soon as the screen comes off, the device wipes itself because it goes into tamper mode. And so this is actually another different aspect of the device, which I'm really happy we're able to do. We're no longer bricking it. Okay. If you guess the PIN wrong too many times, I think we're going with 10 attempts for this one. The device wipes itself. It does not brick itself.
Unfortunately, we've had a lot of users brick their devices, and we've replaced all of them for free, which even if it's used I mean, it's all I think it's all user error. Right? Because you you think that you did a certain PIN. You don't remember your PIN anymore. You think it works like Ledger where it'll just wipe itself. You could set it up again. Yeah. It doesn't do that. Right? And so that's been one of the biggest complaints and pain points about the current gen passport. Mhmm. And so with passport prime, if someone tries to tamper with it, if, if you get the PIN wrong too many times, it just set re it it resets itself to factory settings, erases everything. So we have a device now that you could theoretically erase completely, mail to us.
We could do the battery replacement, and then mail it back to you. There's little trust involved, and it's a little early for us to plan all that out, but if we're gonna try to sell, you know, 1,000,000 and beyond of these devices, we're gonna have to figure something like that out, and definitely wanna make sure it's accessible to the user. It's not like the battery is buried under layers of adhesive, and you have to dig stuff up. It's very much designed to pop the screen off, and you can easily just take the battery right out. How many,
[01:33:40] Unknown:
attempts do you have to get wrong on the current passport to break it? It's,
[01:33:45] Unknown:
21. Very on brand. 21. Yep. Oh, okay. So quite quite a few. Because I was thinking I've definitely done mine wrong a couple of times. It's it's consecutive as well, by the way. So so let's say you do 20 incorrect ones and then you get it right, the counter reset. So you then have Right. Next time around, another 21 goes. Yeah. And by the way, that's the that's the biggest complaint about ledger as well is that it's only 3.
[01:34:07] Unknown:
And so everyone with a tiny screen and the small buttons will end up at least once or twice in your in your, use of a ledger. You'll brick it and then or sorry. Not brick it. You'll wipe it, and then you'll have to reset it all up from scratch, and it's like a nightmare. And if the older ones, it was even harder because you only had the 2 buttons, and you have to say, okay. Now I'm taking 30 minutes of my life here to get my seed, and maybe your seed's not even in the same location. So total nightmare with only 3 attempts.
[01:34:35] Unknown:
I, I wanted to jump in here while talking about hardware and design and stuff, and I'm really glad Zach left this bit out for me to jump in. It wasn't planned, I promise, but I don't know what you're gonna say. It it allows me to to to take my victory lap. We, for the first time ever, are shipping Passport Prime in 2 different colorways. I forgot about that. Yes. Dark Mode maximalists like myself can rejoice. You're gonna be able to get Passport Prime in Arctic Copper, which is, has obviously, the the front of the device is is is all screen. But, on the back of the device, it will be the Arctic Copper is, is white with, a copper edging, very similar to the the kind of colors used in the existing, passport gen 2.
And we're also gonna be offering midnight bronze, which is gonna be like a beautiful and I'm looking at it right now and gently stroking it because I love it so much. Like a like a matte black color with like a darker bronze rather than the copper color. So, yeah, we gonna be catering to to both light mode and dark mode camps, and I am extremely happy about it. It's something that, a dark mode device has been something I've been campaigning pretty much since my first day in the company. So very happy that I get to to take a little victory lap here and very excited to please all of the dark mode Maxis out there.
[01:35:53] Unknown:
But it's it's a perfect example of how we approach the design process because when we go dark mode, most people would say, just make the device totally black. Yeah. And that's not what we're doing. We have the black glass, of course, on front of the device, which is both the the, light mode option and the dark mode option have the same black glass, of course, on the front. But then on the back, we still the both devices still have the black glass with the laser etched pattern on the back. Yeah. But then we have the more contrast. I wouldn't call it matte cue. I would call it, satin, like a satin black. Fucking get it right, mate. Come on.
And it feels it feels great in the hand. It's it's it's because you go when you hold it, you you feel like the metal. It's a painted aluminum actually on the back. So you feel the metal, and it's kinda smooth with a satin like finish. And then you feel the glass, which is a little more tackier. Right? A little a little easier to hold on to. And so you kind of have this texture, these different textures on the back, which is really cool. But then we've actually made slightly different changes to even the word mark. So the word mark on the light mode version is the copper, and on the dark mode version, it's the bronze. And then, of course, the aluminum anodized, as Q said, is bronze instead of copper.
But then the packaging is also different. So the dark mode packaging, of course, it's all black, but then we have the bronze color going through the center line of the packaging and on the lid. And then on the light mode 1, it's white and black with the copper. So we have different packaging. We have 2 different we call them colorways for the device instead of colors because it's not just one color. You're getting a specific colorway. And then, of course, the UI for KeyOS is gonna be able to do light mode and dark mode. And that's something that's another huge win for for Q. Yeah.
[01:37:49] Unknown:
Very happy about that. I am gonna be ordering one of these, and I'm gonna be ordering them in midnight bronze as well, Q.
[01:37:57] Unknown:
Just so you know. And I'm gonna be running it in dark mode. I'm really excited to figure out what the split is going to be.
[01:38:04] Unknown:
70 30
[01:38:06] Unknown:
in the opposite way to what you think. It's gonna tell us a lot about the audience because, I mean, I love the the current design. I think the white and the black and the copper is, is beautiful. I think it's kinda timeless. But we have had people come up to us at the conference and say things like, why are you making a device for girls? You know, this thing looks so pretty and feminine. And we've even had people refer to it, I think, not as copper. What did they they call it rose rose gold, which drives me crazy. And so I think the copper on passport prime on the arctic copper colorway, the light mode colorway, I think looks pretty copper. I don't think anyone's gonna say, oh, this this is rose gold. And I think putting it in the name is also important because you don't want guys to think, oh, it's some rose gold device. You know, this isn't for me. I instead want the, crappy plastic looking calculator thing. You know?
[01:39:04] Unknown:
Also, I think, Arctic rose gold doesn't really roll off the tongue as well, does it?
[01:39:09] Unknown:
Well, it was it was never rose gold. I mean, it was always copper. True. But, I could see how we had a slightly lighter copper. The irony is that Passport today, you know, both the founder's edition and the second generation, is actually plated in copper. So it's real copper, yet people still think it's a little rose gold. The new one, ironically, is not copper at all. Right? It's just aluminum, and it's anodized. But it allows us to dial in the color, you know, more to be exactly what we want Yes. Instead of, you know, being real copper and then people saying it looks too rose gold. Well, it looks great. As I say, I'm gonna be ordering myself one. I'm probably gonna get one for my missus as well.
[01:39:52] Unknown:
When can people order these things? Before we go into that, actually, I just wanted to say, I think we've covered everything pretty much that I wanted to go through. Me and q and a will soon be doing our Bitcoin brief. So anyone who's listening to this who has any questions, that would be a good opportunity for you to send the questions through, and we'll continue the conversation on this if we've missed anything that is. But, so for me and others who wanna order these, when can they get their hands on them?
[01:40:24] Unknown:
So you can get your hands on well, firstly, you can order today on our website foundation of x y z. We have 2 different ways of ordering. 1 is through our early access program, and we're limiting that to a 1000 units of passport prime. And so if you buy a device from the early access program, you will get it first before general availability. We're aiming for March of next year. So about a 3 month wait. Mhmm. And it's going to start with probably like beta firmware. So if if you're the kind of person that wants to be first, you wanna get the first ones off the line, and you wanna help us out a little bit maybe in the first, you know, several weeks as we work to that v one release of KeyOS, early access program might be the thing for you. We're also including with that a, free bumper case. It's like a rubber, you know, very slim case, and we're including a lifetime subscription to Envoy Plus, so you'll never have to pay for it for the magic backups and the other feature functionality we provide. And then we're also doubling the warranty to 2 years because if there's anything wrong with your early access device, we wanna make sure that we replace it for you, you know, no questions asked and that you have 2 years where, you know, if there's any kind of hardware defector or anything like that. And then Passport Prime is gonna be 299, 299 US dollars.
And if you're buying through the early access program, you're just gonna place that as a pre order, pay the 2.99, and you get all that stuff that I mentioned. If you are the kind of person that would rather wait for Passport Prime to be shipping and available and you want someone else to kind of get the first 1,000, right, and and maybe there's some kinks or or software bugs, you just wanna wait, we're also giving you the ability to just place a reservation, fully refundable reservation for $49. So you will have to end up paying, you know, the the difference, the extra $250 when we're getting ready to ship. If you change your mind, you can cancel it. We'll refund you immediately, but this is a great option. I think we're gonna have a lot of demand for passport prime, especially as we move beyond the hardware wallet. We move into other communities like the cake community, right, which has half a 1000000 users. Yeah. And so if you wanna get in line, we're gonna ship an order of the reservations.
You can go ahead. You can place one of those on our site as well today.
[01:42:51] Unknown:
Very nice. Well, as I said, I think we covered everything. It's good to hear that you guys, even through all the stress and and all the hard work that's gone here, sounds like everyone is still friends and pushing forward at Foundation. That's amazing to see. So I'm excited for this. I'm I'm really looking forward to having a play around, and I'm excited that you've opened this thing up to, cake, especially as I'm a heavy user of that. And, I know a lot of the audiences. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to getting some questions from listeners. But as always, you guys have excelled here, and it's fucking beautiful. And I can't wait to play with it. We're, super excited to get it out into the hands of, of our customers and future customers.
[01:43:36] Unknown:
It's been, you know, a wild ride as Saks said. It took, as with most hardware, it takes a lot longer than you initially anticipate. But, we couldn't be happy with the final product and, just very excited to to let the world see and get their hands on it. Just one final piece of information that that Passport Prime is not gonna be replacing Passport Gen 2, the current device. It's gonna be it's its younger brother. It's gonna live alongside it. So if you want the more kind of focused air gap device that does the Bitcoin only stuff, by all means, you can still go ahead and purchase that on the website today as well. It's a great point, Kia. Thank you for mentioning that because
[01:44:10] Unknown:
we want to build out a suite of devices. I don't think we're ever gonna be in a situation where it's gonna be one size fits all. Some people are gonna want the air gapped passport experience that we have today. We're gonna continue, of course, improving the software. We're actually getting pretty close to releasing a major firmware update for passport gen 2 that will completely replace all of the PSBT signing code with our own code that's written in Rust. So we're we're still actively developing the current generation passport even as the company has been working towards passport prem and kos over the last 2 years. And that's gonna be an amazing update because we're gonna be able to sign transactions of any size. That's going to put, you know, passport probably in a category of its own, and that PSBT signing code is also being used on the kiosk side. So it's kind of cool that we were able to create this new rust code, and we're able to bring it both to the current device and the new device. So we're gonna continue supporting the current device. We're gonna continue bringing features to it. It is starting to get into a more feature complete state, I think in my opinion. There's a couple things that we still wanna do, and so we'll continue to do that. But I'd say a majority of the company's focus is is on passport prime and keyOS, but I would love to be able to bring more devices. I would love to have a suite of devices, maybe one that's even at a lower price point because right now we're at, you know, the 199 price point for passport. We're at the 299 price point for passport prime, which I think is a great deal for everything that you get with it. And if you look at, you know, the price of buying all the different devices that it replaces, you're gonna be, you know, well over 5, $600.
But I would still love to do something lower cost as well. And so I hope that we'll be able to sell a lot of units of Passport Prime. We'll be able to use that revenue, you know, to fund r and d, create even more devices, build out the product suite. And what I really hope is that we'll look back in 4 years, and and in 4 years, Ledger will be, on the way out.
[01:46:18] Unknown:
It sounds like it. Yeah. Well, as I said before, incredible work, and, I think people are gonna really love these devices. I look forward to some more questions and updates and things, but, congratulations. I know that a huge amount of work has gone into this. I know how busy you guys have been. Is a relatively tough individual. I've known him for many years now, but he has been worked extremely hard, and it's all been worth it. I mean, like, sometimes I'd speak to him and think, oh, this guy's being a little bitch. He, you know, he just needs to toughen up. But, actually, what he's been working on and you've been working on, the team been working on, You put your heart and souls into this, and it shows.
So congratulations.
[01:47:02] Unknown:
Thanks, Max. Yeah. We, really appreciate you having us on to to talk about it. And, yeah, it's been a monumental effort from the whole team. We're super proud. So thanks again, mate. It's been a pleasure. We are. Yeah. Thanks, Max. Alright. We'll speak soon.
[01:47:16] Unknown:
I hope you enjoyed that. And I also hope you're ham fisting your keyboard or touch screen trying to become a part of the early access program. As always, everything you need information wise will be in the show notes, and don't forget to visit foundation.xyz for your next personal security device. If you'd like to reach out to us about anything Ungovernable Misfits, then you can write to Ungovernable Crew at proton.me, or hit us up on the social sites. And if you haven't already checked out the website, Ungovernable Misfits dot com, it's well worth taking a look.
We have articles, podcasts, clothing, and artwork. Thanks again for all the support. Thank you, Cake Wallet, and thank you, Foundation. Best wishes on the new release and for your continued success. I'll catch you on the next one, Misfits.
Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless. Bitcoin. Now what's the Bitcoin?
[00:00:19] Unknown:
Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking 0.
[00:00:41] Unknown:
Alright, you ungovernable misfits. AI Max is back. Obviously, it should be due to the outpouring of support and rave reviews of my performance last go round. But I've come off the bench again because our Winder in chief, Maxim, is burning the midnight oil editing this episode. Anyways, enough about that prick. Let's get started. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail? Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
Welcome back to the show. Today, we have another special interview with Foundation's Zach Herbert and our favorite robot, Bitcoin Q and A. They are here today to comb through the details of Foundation's game changing personal security device. What's it made of? What's it for? What new tech have they come up with this time? All will be revealed in this after party of sorts. Before we get to Zac and Q, I wanna thank every one of our listeners that are now listening on podcasting 2.0 apps. The majority of The Misfits are on Fountain, but there are also others on Antennepod, Podcast Guru, Podverse, and many others.
So if you haven't already, get yourself a new podcast app at podcastapps.com. Time, talent, and treasure are important parts of the show dynamic. Every time we get a misfit streaming some sats, boosting the episode, sending a PayNim transaction, or dropping an XMR chat, it's a great feeling so thank you for your treasure and returning value back to the show. When it comes to talent, if you have something you can bring to the show let us know. Maybe it's evergreen art we can display in the chapters or maybe you're a music producer and you have a good jingle for the news section of the Bitcoin Brief. If you don't have any treasure to share with the show, it's all good.
We will gladly accept talents. As announced at the end of the Ashigaru interview, we are working on meetup materials such as presentations for the tools we use at Ungovernable Misfits. If you want to help with these sorts of projects, then send us an email. This is grassroots and community driven, so we can use all the help we can get. I also wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices. Foundation helps keep this show running, and they do things properly. Everything they do is fully open source. Their hardware is absolutely beautiful, and it is fuckwit resistant.
I think you're going to be pleased with the latest Foundation hardware release as it maintains the same standards for quality and function that all of you passport holders are accustomed to. I don't want to spoil anything just yet. But just so you know, the current passport is not being deprecated and will still be actively worked on. And if you're looking to purchase one for yourself, a friend, or family member this Christmas season, then make sure to go to foundation.xyz/ungovernable for $10 off a foundation passport. And last but not least, the newest partner of the Ungovernable Misfits team, which is Cake Wallet.
Their support of us and a lot of grassroots projects in the Bitcoin and Monero ecosystems is awesome, and we appreciate their association with the podcast. For those of you who actually use Bitcoin and actually care about their privacy and security, Cakewallet make it incredibly simple for you to live outside of the traditional financial system. You can use Cake Pay within the app to buy gift cards for food, petrol, and whatever else you might need day to day. You can use silent payments, and, of course, you can use Monero, you might think. It's a bit weird shouting out cake on a special episode such as this.
But I assure you, they have a cool partnership with Foundation when it comes to this new device, so be prepared to be pleasantly surprised. Round 2 in the books. AI Max crushes it again. We'll catch you on the outro, and enjoy the show with Zach and Q.
[00:05:00] Unknown:
Morning. Morning. Good morning, sir. How are you getting on? You sound great. And then it was.
[00:05:07] Unknown:
Yeah. It's warming up a little bit now. If it was any other podcast with anybody else, I'd have canceled it, but I couldn't resist the opportunity for this one. We got some big stuff to cover. Rolling out the red carpet treatment. Thank you. Well, for the listeners, this is gonna be going live just after Zac does a big announcement. So we're safe, I think, to cover everything that's gonna be covered in that announcement. Big news. You guys have been working extremely hard the last year. It's very difficult to get in contact with either of you. Heads down. Working day and night. I have to say, after Q's just gone through with me what it is that you have designed and built, I'll let you off.
It's fucking gorgeous, and, I think it's really gonna fill a gap in the market. So I guess, Zac, as you would have just done your keynote, maybe you can kick us off and let us know what you crazy bosses have built.
[00:06:12] Unknown:
Thanks, Max. I'm I'm glad you, you're saying that. Appreciate the kind words. It's been, let's see, about 2 years now, right, Q, of, working on this new thing? Indeed. Yeah. I think almost 2 years to the date. And we have announced a new device, our 3rd generation passport device called passport prime. And importantly, we're not calling it a hardware wallet. We're calling it the first personal security platform because it combines the features of a hardware wallet with the features of a YubiKey, you know, like security keys. Mhmm. Multi factor authentication, encrypted storage, and actually an extendable app platform that we're gonna be fully opening in a permissionless way to third party developers to build apps to run on Passport Prime and to integrate their apps kind of being like the the open app platform for security applications as, you know, maybe standing opposite to Ledger's very closed restrictive walled garden ecosystem.
We're trying to blow it all open. We're trying to empower every single developer that makes a wallet, makes a service, makes a security related app that needs to give their users secure offline storage of their keys. We wanna empower them to ultimately come build on, Passport Prime. So, yeah, that's a little quick summary as to what we've been working on. Yeah. That's a good summary. Well, Q just walked me through
[00:07:51] Unknown:
the design and some of the features. I would say, first of all, to anyone listening, this is very, very different to what you're gonna be used to from Foundation. It's a very different device from Passport. It's gonna work alongside Envoy still, though, and usual quality design. It's really, really beautiful. When I put this against the other options that are out there, even without the fact that this can do a lot more. It's a beautiful thing to look at. I assume there's a lot of work that's gone into this, especially with people will be able to see it now. We're actually gonna have this as an image while you're listening. So if you're in your podcast player, you can take a look now, and it's gonna be live on the website as well. But that curved screen that falls away, it's really, really nice.
[00:08:38] Unknown:
Yeah. Thank you. I, a lot of work has gone into the industrial design. We knew when we started 2 years ago, actually, almost exactly what we wanted to build from a size and form factor perspective and then also from a functionality perspective. But, we knew we wanted to use a screen that was around the same size as a credit card screen. So we went with a 3 and a half inch IPS full color touchscreen display. We didn't wanna make it, you know, look exactly like every other device on the market, which, as you know, is is something that we care a lot about. We still have this, I think, future nostalgia aspect to our designs. We have this, we call digital deco patterning or design language that that we like to use. And so you often see a lot of, maybe slightly older Android phones, the Samsung phones that do the curved glass on the right and left edges where it kinda curves over to the side.
We decided to do what we call waterfall glass on the on the top and bottom edges. The glass waterfalls, you know, away from you as it gets to the top of the device, but then also we wanted it to be really easy to pick up. One thing that drives me crazy with these small devices, especially if if any of the listeners have tried to pick up the new Ledger Stacks, which is that new touchscreen e ink device off a desk. It's like you can't pick it up. There's nowhere to to grab it from because it's so flat. You can't even get your fingers around it. And so we we curve the sides of the device up, and we have this rail, we call it, that goes around 3 of the sides, the top, the left, and the right. And so it's so, like, easy just to pick it up, you know, to use it. And I am I'm really excited about the design language because most of these touchscreen devices, they all look the same. And we thought we could do something that that's, you know, pretty differentiated, and it's also it's all, CNC'd from aluminum, which is new for us. So the, the chassis itself, the frame CNC'd from aluminum and anodized, the rear plate, and then the glass is all Gorilla Glass, which is really cool and and pretty durable. You can try scratching it, you know, with a with a razor blade or something. You're not gonna scratch the screen. So it really brings us up, I think, to a level of not fully there yet, but much closer to, I think, Apple quality design and build quality than anyone else, you know, any direct competitor.
[00:11:04] Unknown:
It's certainly from, from the slides and everything that I've gone through with Q. I remember actually when Minh, you first spoke, you said how much of an Apple fanboy you used to be, and you were talking about how important, like, the unboxing experience is and everything. And from the images of how this device is gonna be presented, it is getting dangerously close to that feel. There's a lot of thought that's gone into that, the way that the box is opened and everything. And in a sea of shit in the Bitcoin space, like, usually, you buy a product, and it ships, and it arrives, and it's plasticky.
And if you were to give this as a gift to somebody, even though it's expensive, you'd be almost embarrassed because it's so shit. Whereas when you're giving this, it feels premium. It feels quality, which is refreshing. The thing that was particularly exciting me is just how different this is to what you've already got. You know, I wanna break down a little bit for people who are listening. Like, this isn't like a a passport 2 point o. This is a very different device that can do a hell of a lot. As we were going through me and q, there were so many things. I was like, oh, I could use it for this. Oh, I could use it for that. And there are gonna be trade offs there as with everything. But what are the things that, this thing unlocks for users?
[00:12:23] Unknown:
Yeah. I I can, I can take that one and cover off, like, all of the different applets that we're gonna have at launch? So first and foremost, you know, we are primarily a Bitcoin company, so it won't come as a shock to learn that, obviously, Passport Prime is a fully functioning Bitcoin hardware wallet and has all of the functionalities that you've come to know and love from our existing products. So things like being able to connect to Spyro, BlueWallet, Nunchuk, etcetera, all of that side of things, passphrase support, temporary seed support, multisig, etcetera. All of that stuff is obviously all gonna be jam packed in there and is gonna be even more intuitive to use now, thanks to the wonderful touchscreen and the key OS operating system that I'm sure we'll come on to later. And the way that that's been packaged up, it's just gonna make all of those existing features much easier to use and much more intuitive. So that's the kind of bedrock that we started to build upon. Then we have a couple of other applications that I know Zach has already alluded to that kind of turn this device into much more than just a hardware wallet. It's, I think I think Zach, you also coined the term a Swiss Army knife for your personal security, which I'm a big fan of.
So the additional application that we've got that turned this device into a a kind of security device rather than just a hardware wallet, we're gonna have a 2FA codes app where you can store all of your important 6 digit 2FA codes. These are typically used as a, again, 2FA, a second factor authentication for you to be able to log in to various different accounts online. You might, secure your access to your Exchange or to your Amazon account or or anything like that. And tangential to that, we're also gonna have a security key application. This is again a type of 2FA that some people use to, again, secure their online accounts.
You know, the most common one that most people would have heard of would be a YubiKey, which is like a physical, almost USB drive looking device where you need to have physical access to that and you need to either tap it onto your phone or to physically insert it into your laptop when you're trying to log in to Google or Amazon or one of your online accounts. The point here is that having physical possession of that item is how you prove that you are who you say you are when you're able to log in. So that's where the additional security comes from. So, yeah, you're gonna be able to have some virtual versions of those within Prime so that you can again secure your different online accounts. And as I alluded to earlier, you can also interact with those via NFC by, again, tapping Prime onto the back of of back of your phone or by using the USB c cable and inserting or connecting Prime to your computer as well.
The next application we have is the file browser app, which is as as the name suggests, is a place for you to securely store all of your important files. Passport Prime is gonna ship with 50 gigabytes of user available storage for you to store, well, anything you like essentially up to and including that 50 gigabyte limit. One really cool part of the file browser application is what we're calling AirLock, which you can look at as kind of a quarantine area for the files that you've got stored on your Passport Prime. What this AirLock feature enables you to do is let's say you've got 25 gigabytes worth of your most secure files on Prime. You don't wanna be able to somebody to just grab that Passport Prime device, plug it into their computer, and and then start taking files off it in the same way that they would a typical USB storage device.
Yeah. What you can do is only place the files that you want to share with an external, you know, let's say, a computer or a phone into that airlock so that they're in the quarantine area so that only those files are accessible. Everything else that's stored on the the device that is not in the airlock is kind of kept on the locking key and is inaccessible by the connected device.
[00:16:04] Unknown:
You've actually gotta access that device, put in your PIN code and everything so that you can get to that bit, then put it into the airlock so it's like a separate part, and then you can transfer it. Yeah. Precisely.
[00:16:16] Unknown:
And then the final application that we'll have at launch is the Seed Vault app, which allows you to create new seeds for your various different Bitcoin wallets. You can also temporarily load seeds to interact with them like you would on the, Passport Gen 2, where you can just kind of, like, throw a seed into the device, sign a transaction, and then it's forgotten. Yeah. And a cool additional feature is that we're now also gonna be able to allow you to import any existing seeds so that you've got Passport Prime as an additional form of backup for those. So let's say you have your samurai wallet with its own seed. You've got a cake wallet with its own seed. You've got a blue wallet with its own seed. They're all different mobile wallets.
Rather than being forced to replace those wallets by a BIP 80 5 kind of deterministic seed to be able to have them stored on the existing device, what you can do with Passport Prime is just take those existing seeds. There's no need to migrate, and you can just add them into the seed vault app of Passport Prime to have them stored securely there on the device so that Passport Prime can be the kind of guardian or the custodian of all of your different mobile wallet seeds as well, irrespective of whether they were generated in a kind of key manager or BIP 80 5, fashion.
[00:17:32] Unknown:
That's a really nice one for someone like me who fucks around and tests so many different wallets all the time, and then you have to do a backup and you store that somewhere. You're, like, just swimming in these different backups and all over the place, and it is an absolute fucking pain in the ass. So something like this, just to have everything accessible and backed up together, the chance of having any loss of funds or not being able to access something
[00:18:00] Unknown:
is much, much lower. Yeah. Agreed. It's a a feature I'm certainly looking forward to adding into my kind of security architecture and and the way in which I look after my own seeds and also my my family seeds as well. It's, gonna be a bit of a game changer for me. Zach, I don't know whether you wanted to jump in and see if I missed any of the core apps or whether there's any features within those core apps that I might have missed off.
[00:18:21] Unknown:
No. I think you hit the no on the head. As you can see, it is a very different kind of device, and it's why we're not calling it a hardware wallet. I think people probably when they saw our teasers for the event beyond the hardware wallet, they may have thought either we were gonna make something completely different, like, you know, like an I've seen like a node or a phone. Oh, yes. So many people have asked me, is it a node? Yeah. Or they think that it's just gonna be a new passport, and it's just and we're just kinda overhyping on the marketing side. But we try not to over hype. It's really a new category of device.
We're calling it a personal security platform, which I think is a fair name. You know, we're not trying to, like, you know, make it exaggerated or make it seem, you know, you know, bigger than it is. But no one before has taken these disparate fragmented device categories and rolled them up into 1. So, like, personally, in my setup, I'll use multiple hardware wallets. I will use, tons of 2 f a codes, both 6 digit 2 f a codes, and then YubaKeys for a couple things. But and actually have these, I have a couple of the open source ones too, like solo key and nitro key. And the problem with those is you cannot back them up, and so you have to have 2 of them. And if you want to use these YubaKeys or security keys with something like say your Icloud account where you can turn on advanced data protection and you can actually end to end encrypt everything Apple requires that you have 2 of them because you can't back them up. So Apple's like we can't only let you connect one of them because if you lose that, you're you're never getting back into your into your Icloud account. So you need to have at least 2. So now you're now you have, you know, multiple hardware wallets, 2 YubaKeys, you have your Google Authenticator or one of these other authenticator apps on your phone with, you know, dozens of codes. Some of those codes I want on my phone. Right? Like, I don't know. I it's not something I don't care about, like a random website. You know?
But some of them I don't want on my phone. If it's something really important, if it's like, if it's Twitter, do I really want my Twitter 2FA code on my phone that is my primary device for using Twitter? You know, the whole point of these 2FA codes was that, you know, you're supposed to get it offline onto a device that's more secure. And so as people's phones have become their primary computing devices, I do not think it makes sense for, you know, every 2 f a code to be living on your phone. And then also, you know, we as as a company, the founders use these hardware encrypted flash drives to store some important data. They're like a $100 on Amazon for 64 gigs. And, you know, they're not they're probably made in China, and they have a little keypad on them, which is so cool because you can, like, plug it into your computer or your phone. You can type in your PIN code that you set. You know, it's a pain in the ass to set because there's no screen or anything. So you have to, like, you know, follow the the instruction card when you set it up. But then at least you have, you know, hardware encrypted storage, and you can use that for important keys that you would never wanna keep, you know, on a computer. So things like firmware signing keys for current gen passport. Right? Like, we don't keep those on a live computer, but there's no kind of device we can store them on. So we're we we don't wanna store them on, like, a, you know, a laptop or something even if it's offline, so we have to resort to these kinds of tools. So now that's like $600 worth of stuff I just mentioned, maybe 5, $600.
[00:21:52] Unknown:
Not only is it $600, but it's also multiple devices that you've gotta keep somewhere. You have to worry about losing them, worry about them breaking. A lot of those things are closed source. That keypad thing had been suggested to me for something else. And when I was looking into them, I couldn't find anything that was open source, and that worried me. Yep. It's not just the money. It's just, like, it's so annoying having to track multiple devices for multiple different things, and you end up having stuff scattered all over the place. So, yeah, just having one one device that you know how it works, you know, the operating system, you know, that it's open source.
I mean, for me, it's it's very, very appealing. Just streamlining
[00:22:38] Unknown:
things and taking the complexity out of stuff. Yeah. No. I mean, I'm in the exact same camp, and I think a lot of us ultra early adopters are in the exact same camp where, you know, we're used to juggling all these different devices. And, you know, if we have to go look at an instruction sheet for how to set something up or, you know, YubiKey is notoriously don't have any good setup process or companion app. And so people have no idea how to set them up. They buy them. They plug them into their computer. The computer, you know, thinks it's a keyboard or something, and you get on, like, a Mac, you know, pops up with, like, some, you know, some keyboard setup screen, and you're like, what the hell am I supposed to do next to set this thing up? You know, I think you hit the nail on my head. So one of it is is trying to simplify, you know, your life, right, allow you to secure your entire digital life just with one device. So that's that's one part of it. But then another part, like I mentioned, is trying to save some money because, you know, if you need to have all these different devices, it's gonna get pretty expensive. And then if you lose 1, like you lose a YubiKey, there's no way to back it up. So you have to just go buy a new one because, you're in a very difficult place if you lose one of the 2 that you've connected to an account because, sometimes there's no recovery options if you lose both of them. Right? So you have to go rush to buy a new one and and so on. But then also, I think there's just this idea of making things more approachable and accessible to more people. Like what we just described, no wonder most people are not using hardware wallets. No wonder most people are using, SMS based 2FA still. I'm sure, like, 90 plus percent of people, right, are still just getting text messages. And you basically have to go watch tutorials and, like, spend a 100 hours learning how to do all this stuff if you want to have this level of security. I personally think in this world that we're in and where we're headed over the next decade and beyond, you know, more and more people using Bitcoin, more and more people using other, tools that rely on keys, more and more people using, different kinds of multifactor authentication.
You know, online accounts, you have to really be careful about protecting that, especially if it's someone's, like, Exchange account, you know, that they're using or hell. I mean, your people's iCloud and Google accounts are also becoming, like, their most important accounts. Like, they literally have their entire life on there. You know, you could tell them, well, watch this tutorial and read all this stuff and, you know, buy 2 YubiKeys, and this is how to set up advanced data protection, you know, on Icloud. Or you can say, we're gonna give you a device. It's gonna allow you to do everything. Its functionality is gonna grow with you over time. You're gonna be able to customize it, you know, how you want. You're gonna be able to back it up, and you're gonna be able to buy it from a company that can give you, you know, really great support and answer any questions you have if you need it. And you get to buy it from one place. You don't have to go buy, you know, 5 different things from different companies and then figure it all out. We will help you. We will guide you on that journey. I think a lot of people that that's gonna resonate with, and I hope it's gonna allow more people to take these first steps to, you know, much better security and much better sovereignty.
[00:25:30] Unknown:
Even if you take out the idea that you can store all your keys on there and everything, just those extra features alone for someone like me make it worth it because I've bought the YubiKeyz. I've set up Bitwarden and done all that shit. And then I've got annoyed with it and had problems with it and gone out of fuck this. I'm not doing it anymore. And just, like, I try and do things in a proper way and try and do things as well as someone like you or q or others would do, but I often fail because I'm busy. I'm not that technical. And when it's in one device with an operating system that you understand, a bit like when people say, oh, why don't you move away from Apple? I just know how it works.
I'm just comfortable with it, and I think this is probably gonna be a very similar thing. It's like you have a a certain amount of comfort, which is important when you're messing around with things that really matter to you. So,
[00:26:25] Unknown:
I'm excited. I'm definitely gonna be getting one of these myself and simplifying things a lot. Yeah. I'm, definitely looking forward to to getting my hands on one properly as well. One thing that's worth spelling out and maybe is a great segue into Zach giving us the lowdown on KeyOS, all of those cool features that we've just been talking about. There's a reason I called them the core apps because they are very much just the starting point. We've architected the firmware or the the operating system of this device in such a way that we've kind of laid the bedrock and then what else you can achieve with this device. The possibilities are almost endless.
And I think that starts with KeyOS, which is the operating system that powers Passport Prime. So I think, Zach, you're probably much better suited than me to kinda give us the lowdown on what KeyOS is and and then maybe flow into the developer platform and what that enables for the wider ecosystem.
[00:27:18] Unknown:
Yeah. For sure. So why this has taken us 2 years to build instead of a year that we we actually thought it would take us about a year. Of course, that that did not happen. And, I think I think it's because we decided to do a new operating system. I'm extremely excited about this. One of my cofounders and our CTO, Ken, and I have been talking about doing a micro kernel based operating system since the same year we started the company, and and when we were talking about it's from late 2020. And KeyOS is I think I don't usually like to make the claim of first because, you know, usually there's someone else that has done it first. But I think we're gonna be the 1st mass production micro kernel operating system in a consumer product, and it's all written in Rust as well, which a lot of the developers are going to love.
[00:28:11] Unknown:
It's my favorite language. Yeah. I love Rust.
[00:28:16] Unknown:
So just to try to take a step back as to what that means. You know, micro kernel is, there's been there's been a bunch of projects like this over time, and some of them are used, I think, in more enterprise or commercial applications. But it's a way to make a operating system that's a little bit more modularized and, you know, resilient where every single thing in the operating system, at least how we do it on Kios, It's its own little we call them servers, but you can also think of it as like little apps. So it's like the operating system is like a collection of all these little apps that are communicating with each other. And the way they communicate with each other is they pass messages to each other. And so everything is completely modularized, and so we have to, you know, we have to write drivers for all these components in Rust because every single part that goes into the device, every single hardware component, you know, needs a driver. So each driver, you know, is is modularized.
If something crashes, it comes back online without taking down the rest of the system. So, you know, developers have been really into microkernels for a long time, especially the idea, like, on a desktop class device, you could have something that is way more performant, but way less likely to crash, and it makes things, you know, much more modularized and resilient. But there's a huge security benefit to it as well because we have this operating system that, you know, the only way that these different components and pieces of the operating system can communicate with each other is actually passing messages to each other. So it's called message passing. The OS manages that. And so the OS can help make sure that the different components and the different apps and everything running on top of it are only able to pass certain messages to each other or communicate with each other in a certain way. So it kinda locks down all the communications. A great way to think about it is, you know, you use your iPhone and you install a new app and it asks you permission to use, you know, the microphone or the camera or Bluetooth. So on a similar basis, but maybe even more broad, every single app running on KeyOS has a set of permissions that is given to it by the operating system. And so the OS is able to manage all those permissions at a very granular level.
And then taking a step further, we're using a security processor on the device. We're actually not using the same processor that we use in in Passport. We're using, well, it's by Microchip, which is that same company that makes the secure element. But it's, it's called a security MPU or microprocessor, and it has a lot of really deep security features. One of those is memory management or an MMU, where the operating system is able to actually sandbox apps, like fully sandbox them, which is exactly what you expect from your phone or, like, your modern Linux or Mac or Windows computer where, you know, on an iPhone, every single app is in its own sandbox, and apps cannot talk to other apps. The OS is what manages their permissions, and the OS is what gives them access to do things.
Likewise, on Passport Prime running KeyOS, every single app is in a sandbox. So you can very quickly understand how we're able to enable this permissionless open 3rd party developer ecosystem because even if you have a malicious app from a third party there's nothing it can do. Right? It can it can live within its own sandbox and be malicious but it's unable to affect other apps, and it's unable to get any kind of information from the operating system that it shouldn't have. So if you compare that with, like, Ledger, Ledger's operating system, bolos, is built on a 30 year old smart card technology.
It's the same kind of stuff that's in your credit card. And it's the biggest reason why ledger devices are so slow because it's running in this very constrained low performance smart card environment. It's also the reason though there's like no memory, and you have to install and uninstall apps, and you have to open an app and then close an app. And apps have to go through the Ledger review process. You cannot just submit an app to Ledger and have it be published as a developer. You need to go through the review process because the Ledger team needs to make sure that there's no malicious code in your app. Because if the app is malicious, it's able to just grab the master seed. Right? Because you have one seed for your Ledger device, and that seed is used by all the apps on Ledger, all the different coins, you know, that that people are using. And that's like a scary environment. And so what we do is for all of our apps, we're empowering the developers to either say, you know, user can import their own seed into that app, and it lives in the sandbox. So maybe they have an existing seed or something they wanna migrate in, Or the app can ask the operating system for a hardened child seed, meaning the OS gives the app a child seed, but the child seed cannot be used to go calculate the master seed. So the app gets its own sandbox. And so that's one of the coolest things about Kios. And, we've been working on this for 2 years, and, you know, the first thing everyone's gonna wanna know is who do we clone?
And so, you know, this is important. We found this amazing open source project by these guys called Bunny and Zobs. Bunny is a famous hardware hacker. They had a crowdfunded project called, Btrusted or precursor, and they're working to try to build a device that enables secure communications. It has it almost looks like an old school BlackBerry. It has a full QWERTY keypad and so on. I think I think Bunny did some interviews with some of the Bitcoin podcasts a couple years ago talking about the product because they were saying, oh, this could be so cool for, you know, hardware wallet type use cases. They built an operating system called Zeus, XOS, Zeus OS. And that's the Rust microkernel that basically became the base of KeyOS.
But we had to port it from RISC 5, which is like the a chip architecture it was made for, so we ported it to ARM. We did a ton of work on top of it, including creating full color graphics and having all those graphics libraries in place and so on, writing drivers for all our components and building out all these apps for the different functionality. And we are also the number, I think, 5th and 6th largest contributors now to the project on GitHub. So it was great because the first thing we did when we said we really want to do this micro kernel on Rust is we started looking at the different projects. You guys probably know System76. Yeah. Their, like, lead engineer makes another one of these Rust micro kernel OSes called Redox.
His name is Jeremy Soller. He also did some Bitcoin podcasts a couple years ago when everyone was really interested in these different kinds of open source projects and, you know, next gen operating systems and next gen hardware devices. And, that one we decided not to build on because it it didn't fit exactly what we were looking for. But Zeus, Ken, and I saw it, and we're like, oh, man. This thing is basically perfect. We can use this as the as the foundation on which to build this operating system. So I think almost as, like, stole a lot of Zeus OS in the core, but I almost think of it maybe as you could say KeyOS is either like, an adaptation of it or maybe the first major distro, you know, similar to how Yeah. You have Linux as, like, the core OS, but then you have Ubuntu or other things like that. But, yeah, we're we're really excited about it, and it really is like a next gen operating system as opposed to building on, like, really old legacy stuff like smart cards.
[00:35:43] Unknown:
That's really cool. The fact that people can build on this and that it's open, it reminds me a little bit of oh, what's the load that I'm running at the moment? Q. Start 9? Yeah. Start 9. How they have this, like, community section where people can actually, build extra applications to go in there. That's pretty exciting that people are gonna be able to do something like this, because I'm sure some amazing stuff is gonna come out of that as well.
[00:36:11] Unknown:
Yeah. Let's, let's just get it over with, and, you know, everyone's gonna call us shitcoiners now.
[00:36:17] Unknown:
But,
[00:36:18] Unknown:
the first so we we also announced that the first third party app on KeyOS is going to be
[00:36:26] Unknown:
Cake. Oh, very nice. Yeah. Full integration
[00:36:29] Unknown:
with Cake Wallet. What that means and why apps on Passport Prime are actually different than what people are used to is that we're working with the Cake team to extend the user interface that the Cake user base, which is actually over 500,000 users, which is That's a lot. Incredible. Right? So, like, you know, the Cake users are already familiar with the Cake app on their phone. So shouldn't they just be able to use a similar UI and similar terminology and and see what they're used to on the hardware device? So we're gonna be enabling all developers, you know, starting with Cake, to bring their logo, bring their UI, bring all that terminology and and functionality that their users are already familiar with onto Passport Prime as an app. And so we're focusing on Monero first, but I'm sure we'll end up, you know, supporting all the different coins that Cake supports.
When I say we, I mean that the Cake team will be able to permissionlessly develop this app, And we are just making the hardware, the operating system, the SDK, you know, and the documentation. And it's so cool because we as a team now get to focus on building up the best platform and helping all these different third party developers onboard, and then they're going to figure out what they wanna build and how it's gonna extend Passport Prime's functionality. So I think Cake is a perfect first partnership and first third party app to be running on Passport Prime because, one, it's so in line with our values and ideals. Of course, Seth is, you know, there now, you know, leading a lot all the day to day operations.
But also the Monero space has been starved for any kind of good hardware support. And I know I've I've talked to them about how difficult it's been to try to get Monero working with Ledger, which is hilarious because they have this Ledger integration, which I hear is is kind of rocky for getting that working, and they can't even get Monero working yet. Like, that's insane. And and it's a it's a perfect example of how Ledger's developer ecosystem, while it's the only developer ecosystem in the space, is so frustrating and all we ever hear is developers complaining about Ledger. You go on to Twitter, you type in Ledger. You You can just view pages and pages and pages of developers complaining about, you know, the SDKs, the apps, the libraries, all this stuff. And so I think we can get a best in class integration with Cake, and that app is going to help inspire hopefully, so many other wallet developers to come work with us, you know, build an app, have an incredible integration, you know, with your app, and allow your users to access cold storage
[00:39:19] Unknown:
in a very seamless way. That's awesome. Yeah. That's something I'm gonna be using as well. Because, yeah, I, like, I don't know anyone who uses Monero who even bothers using Ledger. Like, everyone just has it on hot wallets, then they have some concerns. So this is, this is something that many, many people are gonna benefit from. And what I like about it is it's not taking your focus away from what you guys do so well. It's just opening the door for others to come and develop exactly what's needed for their user bases on your platform, which is a much better setup than you saying to me, like, yeah. We're gonna add this, and we're gonna add that, and da da da. And I'd be thinking,
[00:40:05] Unknown:
maybe I'm a bit concerned that you lose your way or you don't focus on the key things that I really want from you guys, which isn't the case with us. Yeah. That's that's the entire point. We are a very small but focused team. We understand that there is a a huge need for people to store things other than just Bitcoin, like security key, 2FA codes, Monero, etcetera, etcetera. And for us to try and achieve all of the possibilities that Passport Prime is capable of with, you know, 20 people is just not achievable. Like you say, we would quickly lose our way and be spread way too thinly. What this kind of architecture has enabled us to do is remain focused on what we believe are aligned with our ideals and focus on what we perceive to be the important things, like Bitcoin and security keys and 2FA apps and things like that, and obviously, incredible UX. But also leaving the door open to all of the other wonderful incredible teams that exist in the wider ecosystem that have their focus in their area for their customers. It's the perfect marriage of, hey, bring your expertise or throw it into our beautiful, easy to use hardware. It's a match made in heaven.
[00:41:11] Unknown:
Yeah. I really like that. It's really cool. There'll be some people who'd be listening to this, and they'll be thinking, okay. It can do all this stuff, and it all sounds amazing. But does this open or could it open potential attack surfaces in the sense of how this is connecting to things? It's not gonna be air gapped in quite the same way something like a passport would be because it can do a lot more. There's that trade off. You're not just doing PSBTs and scanning QR codes. You can plug this device in, and you have other connection options.
So could you talk about that and how you've thought about doing more without opening yourself up to problems?
[00:41:56] Unknown:
Definitely. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think well, first, this is quite a departure from Passport because Passport was the 1st mainstream air gapped Bitcoin hardware wallet. I think I mean, there was the Respector DIY before Passport. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we may have been the second one. And of course, since we launched, there's been other devices that have come out that are air gapped. There's been, of course, SeedSigner, which I don't think I would even really compare, you know, to what we're doing, but of course, using the same QR codes. Jade implemented the QR code scanning.
There's outside of the Bitcoin space. There's that, Keystone that Yeah. You know, has, implemented the same QR codes. And so I think the air gap is the best security that you can have. But, also, I think that you can try to learn from that model as to what's actually happening with the air gap. You know, how's that working? And you can try to apply it to wireless communication, which sounds like a crazy thing to say. It does a little bit. But So let me, yeah, let me walk you through it because Passport Prime's primary way of communicating with your phone is through Bluetooth, which for me Bluetooth was something that I would never touch. I would always tell friends and family, you know, if you're gonna use a Ledger device, don't use the Ledger device with Bluetooth in it. Blockstream Jade also uses Bluetooth, which scares the hell out of me because it's running a processor that, the processor is the Bluetooth chip. So, like, there's no separate there's no separation. Right? The like, on Jade, the processor that runs the the operating system or the firmware, it's not really an OS, so, like, the firmware also has the Bluetooth on it and also can supports Wi Fi, but there's no Wi Fi antenna attached.
So what we want to do was try to bring the security benefits of an air gap, but do it over Bluetooth and kind of bypass all of the concerns that we had about Bluetooth. The biggest concern about Bluetooth for me is that as soon as you get into these wireless protocols like Bluetooth, Wi Fi, or cellular, you have black box code on the chip. You have these, like, blobs of closed source code, and that's just how it is once you get into wireless communications. So our first thought was like, well, that's bad because we have no idea what it's doing. There's no way in hell we could have a chip that has Bluetooth on it that is running QoS that is the, you know, the main operating system on Prime. So we thought, okay, let's put a separate chip on the device. You put a separate Bluetooth chip on the device so that you now have this the security processor that's running QoS, which is fully open source. And then you have the Bluetooth chip is still on the same circuit board, but it's separate and it's running, you know, very minimal Bluetooth firmware.
So that's what we did. But then you have the issue of what if I still don't trust the Bluetooth chip? What if the Bluetooth chip is able to intercept communications? Right? Because I'm sending I'm sending communications between the Passport Prime and the smartphone through Envoy or through maybe future apps, right, that are gonna connect to it. So how do I know that the Bluetooth chip is not getting in the middle and is is intercepting things or reading things or trying to exfiltrate things. Right? Because there's so many potential issues that it could do if you know, it's running untrusted code and it's it's Bluetooth. There may be vulnerabilities or something in the Bluetooth stack that's happened before. So what we're doing is actually using a QR code exchange during setup to exchange keys between the phone and Passport Prime. So, you know, like, PGP keys. Yeah. So it's encrypted the data.
Exactly. So, you know, one user says, here's my public key. Other user uses that public key often to encrypt their public key and then send it to the, you know, back. So users exchange public keys, then they save those, and then they encrypt all communication to each other. So we're doing a similar thing, but we're doing it actually with a quantum resistant encryption method, you know, because everyone wants you know, everyone's so worried about quantum computing now. But we thought let's just do the the best possible, you know, encryption method that we can. And so we're calling it not Bluetooth, but we're calling it quantum link, which is our, you know, fun marketing term. And what's happening is with the QR codes, you exchange public keys, and then you encrypt all traffic, everything.
So the Bluetooth chip has no idea what it's getting. It's getting already encrypted data, and then it's forwarding that to the processor running Kios. And then it's getting the data from KeyOS and forwarding it, you know, to your smartphone, and it's just passing these blobs of encrypted data, and there's nothing it can do. Right? Because if you think about, okay, what could a malicious Bluetooth chip do here? It could say, I don't wanna send the data, but then you're gonna know something's wrong. It's gonna error out. You could say, I'm going to try to change the data, but KeyOS and Envoy will only accept data that's signed by the keys.
So if it's not signed, it's it's not gonna accept it. It's just gonna throw it out and refuse to look at it. So it's like a totally blinded messenger, basically. Yeah. We considered calling it the original name was blinded Bluetooth, actually. Okay. So it's funny you said that, but we decided it wasn't, you know, friendly enough from a marketing perspective.
[00:47:28] Unknown:
No. Quantum link sounds sick. It sounds like proper
[00:47:32] Unknown:
proper futuristic. That does Yeah. So Quantum Link Bluetooth is is what we're calling it. So it's it's essentially the principles of an air gap applied to the Bluetooth connection where the the Bluetooth chip is literally separate in the device and just passing already encrypted messages. So, you know, I can't tell you, okay, this is better security than, you know, an air gapped Passport. I don't think I would say it's worse either. I think it's just different. And the great thing about, you know, everything we do is that it's all open source, and it's, of course, built on this operating system, KiOS, that is really designed for embedded security running on a processor that has a lot more embedded security features. You know, things like, active tamper protection we have now. If you try to take apart the device, it wipes itself, which is really cool.
And so yeah. And so, like, it's it's a different device. It is wireless. It might make people nervous. Now, of course, you could you could turn it off. You have the ability to enable or disable, Bluetooth, USB data, NFC, all through the UI. But I think what's gonna happen is I think people are gonna end up using Passport Prime. And then if you're a little bit more hardcore, if you have larger amounts of Bitcoin, maybe you put it in a multisig. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's how you secure that because already people are less comfortable, of course, with storing all their eggs in one basket. But I think from my perspective, I'm really comfortable with it. I look at it as we took all the issues that we had with Bluetooth, and we said, like, let's kinda reinvent the way we do this this protocol.
And I actually am really, you know, happy about how we did it, and I think that the competitors are gonna be really surprised by how we did it. And I bet you a lot of people are gonna end up doing this too.
[00:49:17] Unknown:
I have the same feeling. And the other thing I was thinking as you were going through that is, yes, people are gonna be nervous. And if I'm totally honest, like, there's a little bit of nerves with me, I wouldn't be putting all my my eggs in one basket even though, I trust what you and Q are doing and the rest of the team. Still be like, I'm not gonna do that yet. But what will happen is you luckily have some really childish haters who are gonna try and do absolutely everything that they can to shit on this product and tell everyone that it's insecure. And what that means is because you're actually open source Mhmm. They can check this out and try and fling as much shit as they can at you. My guess is after a few months, they'll fail, and then everyone will go, okay. Now we can have some more trust. The fact that it can be attacked, which we know it definitely will be by certain people, That gives me some extra confidence, actually.
[00:50:14] Unknown:
We can probably think of all the FUD. I don't know, Q, if you have some ideas about about the FUD. But, I mean, they're gonna say it has a larger attack surface. They're gonna say that the foundation guys, you know, have talked about the benefits of an air gap for years, and now all of a sudden they're using Bluetooth. They're gonna say we're becoming shitcoiners now Yeah. And that, you know, you can't trust us anymore. They're gonna look to see, you know, who we copied this device from. Maybe they'll say, oh, we it, you know, it looks a lot like, some other touchscreen, you know, device. And they're gonna say, especially about the attack surface, oh, you can't just throw all this functionality, and it's gonna make it less secure.
But like you're saying, Max, like, they're gonna have to point out why that is and show that it is, and everything's open source.
[00:50:56] Unknown:
Yes. And name calling doesn't work. You have to actually prove that there's a vulnerability.
[00:51:04] Unknown:
My guess is that that doesn't happen, so it's gonna be interesting to see. Yeah. I wanted to chime in here while we're talking about the the Quantum Link Bluetooth. One thing for me as a as working in the the customer facing side of the company, I'm really excited about is what Quantum Link and that kind of active or secure Bluetooth connection enables from a user experience perspective. So me, personally, I'm a huge fan of a true air gap like we have in Passport Gen 2, our existing device. But whilst I believe we've done a wonderful job of making that as easy and approachable as possible, You do eventually come up to a a brick wall where that physical air gap presents you with UX hurdles that unless you breach the air gap, you just can't get around it. So paint a little bit of a picture. To set up a Passport Gen 2, you have a two way QR code scan for the supply chain check. You then have the encrypted backup feature where you insert the SD card, you write down your 20 digits, then you write down your seed words if you want to, then you have another QR code dance to connect with Envoy. So there's quite a lot of back and forth between, you know, manual back and forth between different accessories with your phone. It's all a very manual process, and that's the only way we can achieve that and still maintain that true air gap. Now with our Quantum Link, once you have that first QR code, you know, that key exchange to secure that Bluetooth tunnel, everything after that is automated, and these devices are perfectly in sync. So that is gonna make the onboarding literally the easiest possible for one of these types of devices on the entire market. I'm very, very excited to see people actually get to use this in the wild to see how they can go from, you know, the device not being set up to having their own personal security device with all of the backups in place, which I'm gonna come on to in a second in a matter of minutes. Like, it's it really is gonna be a game changer. So if you're kind of thinking about Orange pulling people and you're a little bit worried about giving them an an air gap device because of the UX hurdles that I've kind of just alluded to, Prime really is gonna lower that barrier to entry. Typically, right now, what we have is people going for kind of closed source solutions like the Bitkey is a great example.
I know Zach shared some very detailed thoughts on on the Bitkey and and its shortcomings. But from a UX perspective, I get why newcomers are flocking towards that. It doesn't have a screen. It connects, I think, via Bluetooth to a phone app, and also you have on the device itself is a fingerprint scanner. Now again, that brings with it some limitations, but from a UX perspective and that feeling of having your funds secured, like, I understand why people, you know, are flocking towards that because they just made it easy. We're gonna be giving that same sort of ease of use without all of the closed sourceness and, you know, crucially having a screen on the device feed to actually verify what the hell is going on on this on this offline device. Yeah. The not having a screen thing, like, yeah, it might be easy to set up, but that just immediately
[00:53:53] Unknown:
just I cannot suggest to anyone that I care about to use that device.
[00:53:58] Unknown:
Like, I'd rather than just have it on a hot wallet. It seems fucking crazy to me. Yeah. I agree. And it it uses, NFC, I think, q. Yes. You're correct. Yeah. Yeah. But same same kind of principle. But another thing I wanna add, it's not just about the onboarding. So Q sees a lot of the onboarding challenges, which everything you said totally spot on. The air gap can actually be very confusing to newcomers. It's very hard for them to understand sometimes what device they're supposed to look at to perform the next step with the setup. Are you supposed to do it on your phone? Are you supposed to do it on the hardware wallet? But Yeah. All hardware wallets have this same problem, which is they're all stateless. Right? So hardware wallets, they don't know how much money or how much Bitcoin they're storing or how much crypto they're storing. They don't know what the exchange rate is.
And one of the most common questions for newcomers is, so wait. This device I'm holding in my hand, like, this is storing my Bitcoin. Right? Okay. Why does it know how much it's storing? And we know that. Right? Because, obviously, it's just storing the keys, and you need an online device to be able to, you know, look at the blockchain and and see the balances and then know the exchange rates and be able to tell you on the software wallet on your phone or on your computer, oh, you have, you know, 1 Bitcoin, and it's worth $100,000.
However, with quantum link Bluetooth on passport prime connected to the Envoy app, we no longer have to be stateless. And this doesn't affect anything from a security perspective because, you know, your keys are offline. Envoy could theoretically be compromised, and maybe it could lie about things. It could it could lie about the exchange rate, for example. But for convenience, we're gonna start sending some information in the background from Envoy to Passport Prime. So Passport Prime has some awareness of the world. One example of information is the time and the date.
Right now, one of the big issues with air gapped hardware wallets or signers is that they have no idea what day it is. And so when you sign a PSVT or a transaction, to SD card, the SD card file doesn't have the right time stamp. Like Mhmm. That's a total pain in the ass. It can be really confusing if you have a lot of signed transactions and you pop your SD card in, you know, like, wait a minute. Like, which is the new one? It doesn't even have the date and time. So first is we're able to send the date and time over Quantum Link to Passport Prime. So no matter what it's doing, you have the date and time. Now you know what else you need the date and time for? Six digit 2FA codes.
You cannot do 6 digit 2FA codes unless you have the date and the time, and that's how they sync up with the website you're using for login. So now we've solved multiple problems, right? The device is no longer stateless. Even if you have it shut off for a year, you turn it back on. As soon as it connects to your phone, Envoy sends it the, you know, the date and time as part of, you know, the update. But then we're able to start sending it more things. We can send it the Bitcoin exchange rate. So one cool thing we're doing with just for fun on the UI is for the Bitcoin wallet app. We're showing the Bitcoin price on the screen. Because why not? Right? You know, we have it on on Envoy. We can send it to Passport Prime, and you can have some sense that, you know, this is cool. Passport Prime, you know, knows what the Bitcoin price is. But what we're gonna do over the next several months and then, you know, probably later in in 2025 they start to send transaction information back down to Passport Prime and allow Passport Prime to send transaction information back to Envoy. So let's say you want to initiate a transaction.
You may want to scan the QR code of a Bitcoin address and send to it. Well, we're gonna enable you to do that with Passport Prime. You'll be able to scan the QR code with Passport Prime, and then Passport Prime can send that info to Envoy. You'll be able to, I hope, do even things like basic coin control features on prime as you're sending and signing transactions, and then it can send that data back to Envoy to get saved into your, you know, wallet and synced up. Oh, that's nice, actually.
[00:58:16] Unknown:
I can put paying queue back for beers, whatever, on the Passport Prime, and then that's gonna sync up to Envoy
[00:58:22] Unknown:
so that I have my labels all done correctly. It's even better than that, though, because let's say, multisig and you wanna receive to your multisig. The only way to be secure right now when receiving to your multisig is to verify the address from probably Passport, because none of the other hardware wallets, I think, have the ability to, you know, verify your multisig address like Passport does today, the current gen Passport. So you go into your app, let's say Sparrow, you click receive, you know, you get that new receive address at the new index, so you're not reusing addresses. Yeah. And then if you're a savvy user, you pull out your Passport, you go to verify address, you choose the multisig config and you scan the QR code and passport gives you a check, you know, check mark and says, you know, verified. And it tells you that index number. Yeah. Right. Tells you the index of the address. And you're like, okay, this address belongs to me. My software wallet is not lying to me, which by the way is exactly why Bitkey is so crazy.
You have to have a screen. You have to have a way if you're receiving to multisig, right, of verifying that the address is your address. Otherwise, you're putting a 100% of trust in the hot wallet, the coordinator. Yes. So what we're gonna be able to do on Passport Prime probably later in 2025, like I'm saying, this this is not gonna be available at launch, but we're gonna be able to hit receive on Passport Prime. It can check with Envoy in the background to make sure that it's giving you a fresh address. Yep. And then it can just show you the QR code on Passport Prime's screen. So you don't have to necessarily go into, you know, the software wallet. Now it's gonna for things like I I guess multisync maybe is not the best example because you're not using Envoy to coordinate that. Right? You might be using Sparo or some of the other ones. So there will be a part of it that is gonna be up to third party developers to support. So if Craig decided to, you know, support and build an app for Passport Prime and integrate that with Spiro tightly, that's an example of something you could do because you need to sync that address, you know, index with the coordinator.
But at least with single sig, you were gonna be able to do it as well. You won't have to verify addresses. And so the idea that, you know, for an important transaction, you could pull out Passport Prime and create a receive address and receive directly to it, and everything is synced nicely, and you don't have any address reuse. It's actually a really powerful feature. Yes. You could you can only do this stuff with background back and forth wireless communication. That's one of the main reasons why we really want to do Bluetooth, and we really want to figure out how we do it because we love the air gap. It's very secure. But from an onboarding user experience perspective, it can create a lot more challenges than you'd think, and q is at the forefront of, you know, dealing with that with with customers. And so we've seen a lot, you know, over the years.
[01:01:06] Unknown:
Yeah. Definitely. And that that verifying address thing, I think that's such a powerful feature. It's something that I really love in in the passport, just giving that peace of mind and making sure, as you say, like, there's not a problem with the software that you're using. You can just double check because, you know, you know people in the past have been done like that. They go and they send something, and then someone's, inserted a malicious address, and suddenly you get your funds swept. You sent to the wrong address. And, just having that built in that it does it automatically, because people forget or don't do it or don't know you can do it or whatever. That's, that's very, very nice.
[01:01:46] Unknown:
I know we, have talked at length about this Quantum Link Bluetooth, but another wonderful idea. I've just literally just popped into my head that this kind of active connection back to the phone enables. As you know, Max, I'm the resident Nosta shill on the Ungovitable Misfits crew. Oh, fucking hell. There we go. One of the unsolved problems of Nosta is key management. Right? Right now, what most people are doing is they have their NSec, which can be analogous to, you know, your Bitcoin private key. It's like the secret to access all of your Nostra stuff. Most people, if they wanna move apps, they're just pasting this into their various different apps on their phone or on their computer to be able to access all of their Nostra accounts. Right? If one of those websites or apps becomes compromised, your NSERC is burned and you lose your account and potentially thousands of followers and and all of your web of trust and your connections. Not ideal.
Now what if there was a a device that was able to secure the NSERC offline so that you could keep it secure? Of course. But also had a secure connection via, let's say, a Quantum Link Bluetooth back to your phone where your Nostra app lives so that you can do all of your Nostra ink on your phone. Oh, yeah. Or have that all important key segregation so that, you know, the Amethyst app on your phone or the the, Darmus app on your iPhone doesn't hold your private key. But you can still go and like and retweet and zap people and have those events signed seamlessly over Quantum Link Bluetooth by Prime without having to expose your private keys to an app on your phone. That's an open call to any developers listening to this. I'm happy to start off a bounty to get that built because I personally really wanna see that come to fruition.
[01:03:21] Unknown:
That's a very, very good point. That's something I've win every time that you show Nosta, I come back and say, yeah, but it's shit because I worry about having my that's not properly secure and not properly air gapped, And therefore, I don't wanna put any effort and energy into because at any point, it could be taken away from me, and I shut it down because of that. And that actually potentially can be solved with this, and that is pretty big.
[01:03:49] Unknown:
That's a no. That's a great point. I think I'm not as much of a Nostr expert as Q is, but I believe there's been 2 main proposals on Nostr to deal with the keys. The first of which was having a key that was derived from the the master key and valid for a specific amount of time. So you'd have to reauthorize your app, let's say, on a weekly basis from the master key. And the second one was almost running like a like a like a your own self hosted
[01:04:25] Unknown:
Right. HSM type thing, right, q, where you would you could give, you know, some kind of access. Aren't those, like, the only 2? And the first one ended up being killed, I think. Absolutely correct. Yeah. The the first one is dead in the water that everybody's moved away from it. It's everybody seems to be gravitating towards this kind of bunker scenario with the HSM like you said. And you've immediately just lost 99.9% of the population
[01:04:47] Unknown:
immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Immediately.
[01:04:49] Unknown:
In fairness, the the other solution that I personally use right now is that you have to use us, another separate app on the same phone that stores the private key. By Ample one. Exactly. Yeah. So one app stores the key and then the other app is like your Nostra browser. So for me, like Amethyst. And then whenever I take any action on Amethyst, it talks to the other app, which is still on my phone, and then it authorizes that locally. So you you can achieve that segregation. But, again, it's another app on your phone. If you lose your phone, you don't have a backup, like, you've lost everything.
[01:05:17] Unknown:
This is cool because we can enable this with Prime through third party developers where you could probably set up in a couple different ways. One way could be that the app on prime automatically signs whatever you send to it from the phone. So that the keys are living on prime, but you don't have to manually enter your PIN and type approve for everything. So that would be pretty cool. That's almost like a portable HSM functionality for Passport Prime. The other option would be that maybe you don't trust your phone, and you're posting to noster, and you actually want to have a chance to review and approve what you're about to post on your secure offline device.
Just like how you would do so when sending a bitcoin transaction, and then yeah, you would be able to to actually see that on Passport Prime's color 3 and a half inch high res touchscreen display, and confirm everything looks good, and then hit approve. And maybe you could even allow users to granularly customize those permissions. Now in some sense, this only works if you physically bring Passport Prime with you. I think there's going to be different types of use cases. I think some people are gonna want to treat it more like a hardware wallet where they keep it at home, you know, it's secure. Some people though are gonna say well this is doing all my 2 f a. I want this to go with me. And so maybe they won't store the majority of their Bitcoin on there because it's going with them, but they're still using it for, you know, Bitcoin wallet functionality and connecting to all their different apps. And then maybe they're using Bitcoin, in a multisig or or or stored on other devices, or maybe you have a a passport, you know, the current gen that's air gapped and you have passport prime that you take with you. Mhmm. I think QC is where I'm going with this. We have not announced this actually on the website. I did not announce it in the keynote, but we have designed some cases and accessories to go with it. They'll come out probably in q one. We'll announce more information about those.
1 is a wallet folio case where you have a couple credit card slots, and you could put the, you know, passport prime in one pocket, put your phone in another pocket. The other, which is my favorite, and we there's a running joke in the company that I'm the only customer for this because they, is I'm literally the only customer. I may I may be the only one to buy one of these. Well, I'm just not gonna buy one. I'm just gonna, you know, be given 1. But it's a holster accessory inspired by, you know, inside the waistband. Nice. Like eighties style. Well, no. I mean, so you could you no. Inside the waistband. More like like a concealed concealed carry. Carry. Yeah. Okay. You could clip it outside if you wanted to, 80 style, but the whole idea was that you clip it inside the waistband, and then you put passport prime in there. So no one has any idea that you have it. It's it's a it's a pretty slim device.
You know, maybe you have your firearm on your right side, your Passport Prime, you know, on your left side. And, it could be in the holster, and it can be communicating with your phone in real time in the background, and maybe you need to pull it out to, sign or authorize some important, you know, action.
[01:08:36] Unknown:
I was just thinking of you there. So now that people know Zack's gonna have this sort of concealed thing, he's gonna be the only customer. If someone then says, give me your prime now your prime of your life, you can say, okay. Yeah. I'll just get it out for you. And then you pull your actual concealed carry, which is quite a nice feature because they don't know which one's coming.
[01:09:00] Unknown:
Is it the left side or the right side? Yeah. Exactly. We've so we originally were considering calling it a portable security platform instead of personal because the idea was that you may wanna bring it with you. I don't think that made too much sense, but we're also considering potentially implementing some features that would and it won't be there for, you know, the v one release, but hopefully later in the year that would allow you to feel comfortable carrying Passport Prime with you while restricting some of the functionality to being in a specific location. And there's different ways we've talked about doing it.
Could be that you have a dock at home or an NFC tag or one of our NFC key cards, which we'll talk about, I guess, in a bit. I guess I have to segue to that next. That would allow you to say, well, I can only Passport Prime will only sign a transaction up to this much value unless I am at home. Because then that would allow you to to bring it with you and use it for all the multifactor authentication features while still having, you know, being able to store your entire Bitcoin stash if you wanted to, but locking the capabilities of spending it. Right? Locking the ability to spend it. Another thing, you know, we thought of was potentially using something in Envoy with geolocation because Envoy is fully open source. You could have confidence that you would enable location services on Envoy and that we can't see it. Right? It's just local to the app. And maybe having some kind of communication between the 2 where it would say, well, you know, Passport Prime needs to check with Envoy to make sure the user is in a specific location before you're able to sign. So maybe you authorize 2 locations, and you cannot sign over certain value unless you're in the location. So these are things that we're actually still exploring.
We don't have it all figured out yet. Very much open to feedback because we know that with all the great multifactor authentication capabilities and all of these features that we're just brainstorming now like Nostra Mhmm. Most people who use it are going to wanna take it with them. And we wanna make sure that, you know, your Bitcoin is not subject to, you know, a a $5 wrench attack where someone says unlock this thing, give me all your Bitcoin. The easiest answer would be, I'm sorry. I'm unable to do that. I have to be, you know, at a certain location or I have to, you know, tap this card to it, you know, or something like that. Yeah. Or just having
[01:11:33] Unknown:
having a a passport for savings, and and then you have this linked when you're out and about to your cake wallet and other things so that you can do your spends as you normally would. Exactly. I mean, that's how I would personally look at this device is, you you know, I'm not gonna put my life savings on a device that I carry around everywhere. No matter how clever and all this geo this and whatever, like, I just wouldn't do it. You know? I think the fact that it unlocks all these other capabilities means you are gonna wanna take it out and about, And maybe it's just like a second device that makes everything more secure and and simple and in in one place.
I know we're gonna get on to backups now. I just wanted to say before we do, this really appeals to me. It was one of my favorite things as q was going through the simplicity of it and the fact that you have some physical things that you can hide because I'm still a bit of a fucking caveman. And when you talk about, like, encrypted backups on SD cards and then having a separate code and another thing to store in another location, and it all gets more complex. I think the way that you guys have set this up for backups is a massive step up for people who want a little bit of simplicity with their security.
[01:12:52] Unknown:
Yeah. I'm happy to talk about that because when we look at what we've built with Passport Prime, it's not just one thing. You know, we have the new operating system, KiOS. We have Quantum Link Bluetooth for communication. We have all these different apps with some really cool security features like Q mentioned. My favorite still is the airlock, you know, and file browser where you protect yourself against a malicious computer. Yeah. But the backups is also probably one of the best features. What we do with Passport Prime is we still give you the physical tether as you were alluding to. You still have physical objects, but you don't have to write anything down. So you can go from 0 to fully set up in a couple minutes without writing down seed words or anything. The way we do that is we give you NFC key cards.
We actually give you 3 cards in the box when you buy passport prime. You don't have to pay extra. You know, it's it's kind of our it's one of our main, main approaches is is we wanna give you everything you need in the box. We don't wanna say you have to buy your USB cable. You know, you have to buy your you know, that kind of thing. I think we all know who does that. You know, you don't need to, name them on here. So how it works is that by default, Passport Prime chamirs your seed. So it breaks it into 3 parts. Do a 2 of 3 chimere setup.
If you opt into our backup service called magic backups, which we can talk a little bit more about. You only need 2 of the cards. So you can keep the 3rd one in case you lose a card, or we'll probably have some cool future functionality that we enable with these cards. So you grab 2 of the cards from the box. You tap 2 of them to passport prime. Passport prime puts 2 of the Shamir shares on the cards, and then it stores the 3rd share on Envoy on your phone. So why this is so convenient is because 90 plus percent of people using Envoy are using it well, we think we don't actually have the ability to collect all all the data, which is good, but we assume 90% of people using Envoy are already using Envoy magic backups where where it stores a little bit of information on Icloud or Google and end to end encrypted, and that's all backed up for you. So that means that that third Shamir share is gonna go into Envoy and be automatically backed up. So that's great because now you have these 2 physical cards, and you only need one of these cards if you lose passport prime or you break it. You need to buy a new one to replace it. You literally just tap one card to passport prime. It grabs the other Shamir share from Envoy over Quantum Link Bluetooth, and then it is able to recompile your seed on device, and then you have everything back. Now what makes this magic backups is that is an optional service that we think probably a vast majority of Passport Prime users will want to use is Passport Prime takes an encrypted backup on device of everything.
All of your settings, all of the metadata, things like the 6 digit 2FA codes, the derivation paths that tell it how to get your Bitcoin wallet, get your your virtual YubaKeys, all this stuff. You have this basically I I keep using the term blob of encrypted data because that's how so much of our services operate. Mhmm. But we encrypt all of it on Passport Prime and encrypts it with the seed words. Because this is a huge concern with these online backup services. Like, you look at Ledger recover. They actually just break up the seed words into 3 pieces and send them directly to the custodians,
[01:16:47] Unknown:
which is governments. Insane.
[01:16:49] Unknown:
Literally, the seed words are leaving the device. Right? Because the seed is leaving the device. It's being broken into 3 pieces. It's going online to custodians. Yes. Crazy. That's not what's happening here. Right? So the seed words are being broken into 3 parts. You store 2 of the cards. Mhmm. The 3rd is stored on the open source Envoy app. Right? So it's all auditable, you know, stored in the secure enclave of your phone. But this encrypted backup is just a blob of data and can be passed through Envoy to foundation servers. Mhmm. So foundation servers are storing this encrypted blob.
We don't collect anything about you. If you're using Tor with Envoy, we don't even know your IP address. Yeah. Not that we don't log it anyway if you're not, but we don't even know your IP address. We don't have a username. We don't have a password. We don't have an email address. We use exactly what we do already in Envoy where the user ID is a hash of your seed. And the only way you you could know the hash of your seed is if you have your seed. And so we store the seed hash, and we store an encrypted blob of data. So why this is absolutely incredible is because all the stuff that you're storing on Prime, especially with 3rd party apps and everything like that, it makes it really difficult if you lose your device. You don't wanna have to go set that up from scratch again. I mean, we weren't gonna spend, like, 8 hours, you know, setting it up. And it's exactly what happens to people, like, if they lose their ledgers. It's a hellish experience trying to get all set up again with your seed and getting the apps back on and everything like that. So literally, you tap a card and then everything comes back. It grabs the other share from Envoy. It downloads the encrypted backup blob, and locally on device, it decrypts it because it has your seed on device.
Mhmm. And everything comes back exactly how you had it. Your apps, your settings, your data, it's all right there. So it's really like Icloud backup and restore, but for your Passport Prime. It's that kind of user experience, and no one does anything like that right now. You literally just need one card. You tap it, and it's done. And so I'm, like, so excited about this because it solves a lot of the onboarding issues, but it allows you to still give people complete sovereignty. They are still holding the keys to the seed words themselves. They have the physical cards, but we benefit from the optional service. And that service is gonna be bundled in as part of Envoy Plus, which is gonna be our subscription offering.
Mhmm. We're gonna give a free 6 month trial to everyone who buys a Passport Prime, maybe longer, because one of the main reasons we're giving a trial, of course, is because we want people to try it out. The other reason is because we're not ready yet on the payment side. And we actually have to do a little bit more work to figure out how we can take the payments without being able to associate the payment with the with the user. Yeah. That is quite a difficult problem to solve, actually. We actually think we know how we're gonna do it, but it it's like we're not focused on that right now because we're so focused on getting Prime out. Right? And so it's something that we'll probably look at as well later in 2025. But the idea is that it'll be $5 a month if you wanna do this ultimately. And we'll probably add some more features to Envoy Plus as well, and we're still thinking about the feature set in general. We really want it to be something that's optional, but also something that is so value add that the majority of people will say, you know what? In order to get a full backup of everything, you know, I'm willing I'm willing to pay that, you know, $5 a month. And then we're, of course, you know, trying to make sure that you really feel like you're getting the value out of that and that we're adding functionality to that that's gonna get you excited where you feel like, you know, the the price is staying the same, but you're getting more out of it instead of what you see with all these companies where it's like the product is getting crappier and then they're just raising the subscription price. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:20:41] Unknown:
What I really like about this with the cards is someone doesn't have to write down their seed words, but they have something physical. I really like that because the problem I have, like, when I'm onboarding people who are new, you know, you sit them down. You say, right. If anyone gets hold of these seed words, you're fucked. So make sure that you stamp them into steel or do them onto washers, and you put this somewhere that no one's gonna find it. But the problem is someone only has to see it, and they can get swept. Whereas this, the card looks like nothing. No one even would know what it is. It's so easy to hide. People understand, okay. This is my key, but they're not constantly having the concern of someone seeing
[01:21:27] Unknown:
their seed words. And I think that is actually a massive deal. Yeah. Definitely. I'm very, very excited about this. And I wanted to give a couple of points of clarification just, so that nobody jumps to any conclusions here that, you know, if somebody's new to, to Foundation and doesn't, you know, know what we're about and that we're about openness and everything that Zach just mentioned, none of it's proprietary. The Shamir Secret Sharing scheme is an open standard. The underlying seed is a traditional bit 39 seed that if you're a more advanced user, you can go into the settings, grab that, and write it down or stamp it to steal, whatever you want. Like, it's all there for you. We just don't force people through that as part of the onboarding. There also might be a couple of listeners here that again might maybe more advanced that think, that sounds pretty cool, but you know what? I don't really wanna do all that cloud stuff. Of course, you can opt out of that if you don't want to. And that's the reason that we ship with 3 NFC cards. When Zac gave his explainer earlier, he mentioned that you use 2 cards and then the 3rd share goes on to the Envoy app. If you opt out of the optional cloud backup, that's why where the 3rd key card comes in, you just tap 3 cards instead of the 2, and then your sold back up for your, you know, the master seed for your Passport Prime is split across those 3 key cards. And then just as a in a similar to a multisix game where you would just go and store those at separate locations. And then when it comes to recovery time, you tap 2 of those cards onto the back of a of a new Passport Prime, and it restores everything in the same way. The caveat to that, of course, is that you don't get all of that magicness where all of the updates or etcetera all is automatically pulled back pulled down from the cloud, should I say. Now you can create your own kind of offline version of that where you pull the encrypted backup file off the device and then go install that somewhere else. So you can still back up the entire, you know, all of the metadata for the device. So all of the kind of overall benefits are possible for a more manual user that opts out of the cloud service. But again, it's just not as automatic and as magical as as the the example that, Zach, mentioned. And one final point on the NFC cards is that for all 3 of the cards that are shipped with the device, we also ship a Faraday sleeve for each of the cards as well to give each of those cards some protection from, all of the I guess, what would you call it, Zach? Solar flare. Yeah. I think things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like wireless attacks.
[01:23:45] Unknown:
Yeah. But then also if someone was somehow snooping for it, let's say Yeah. They went into your house and they had a giant modified special, you know, NFC antenna and they were trying to scan for the card. You wanna make sure that, you know, the card is undetectable. And so Yes. We actually designed these really nice Faraday sleeves, and they have a little label area on the back where you could even write something on it in case you're the kind of person that wants to, you know, remind yourself what this thing is. You know, you can grab a little Sharpie or something like that and just write on it. But, yeah, they're they're they're awesome, and,
[01:24:19] Unknown:
it was really important to us that if we're gonna do these NFC key cards that we also do, sleeves for each of them. Yeah. That's a nice touch. These key cards look so good. I kinda want us to do a credit card so that I can use one, like, every single day.
[01:24:33] Unknown:
It's very on brand. Right? The foundation credit card.
[01:24:38] Unknown:
The other thing that I wanted to touch on is just the actual hardware. The quality that you guys put out is always above and beyond what I see elsewhere, but it seems like you guys have, stepped it up again. Can you go through some of the changes and some of the, materials maybe that you guys have used for this?
[01:24:58] Unknown:
Yeah. Absolutely. We have stepped it up significantly, and I'm really excited about it. I think I mentioned before, you know, most of the devices anodized aluminum. Mhmm. And, we have this, you know, these rails running, the right left on top of the device that make it really easy to pick up the glass on the front and the back is Gorilla Glass. And on the back, we have our typical, or I should say signature digital deco pattern that's laser etched onto the glass with our, of course, foundation word mark and the vertical marquee, we actually call it. We still have the camera. So same camera, but you're gonna see a little bit better camera performance because the operating system allows us to provide a much faster user experience.
We still have our, you know, foundation logo that's, CNC'd onto the the back as well under the camera. So you'll see the same familiar design language there. And then we have a 3 and a half inch IPS display. So not OLED because OLED, you know, you have to go much more custom for and so on. Maybe one day we'll do OLED. But at least it's an IPS color display. It's touch screen. Multi touch of course. And it's it's high resolution. I don't know the exact resolution off hand, but it's enough where you're not gonna see the pixels if you bring it close to your face. So not as good as on your iPhone, but Mhmm. Way better than anything else you would see in the industry.
And you could still almost call it like a retina like display. Cause I'm bringing this thing up to my face and I still can't see any pixels. So it's really nice. We also have, a virtual home button underneath. So the way you navigate is very similar to, you know, an iPhone that had a home button where you you tap underneath the screen to go back home. The home button has 4 LED lights on it, so it can change color. We're probably not doing too much with color right now, but what I really am excited about is when you tap it, it has a haptic motor. You get that haptic feedback when you tap the button. Yeah. And it feels really nice. It's very subtle. It's not one of those, like, crappy old school Android phones where the whole thing, like, vibrates and shakes.
It's just a nice subtle little tap. We also have, which I had to actually as q can attest, I had to fight with the team to get this. We have a ambient light sensor that allows the device to automatically adjust the display brightness. Oh, nice. That's the only reason it's there. Maybe we can also use it for, like, entropy or something like that. Mhmm. But, it's I'm really happy we have that. So you'll see that little cutout in the, glass on the top left. And then inside the device, like I mentioned, we have, you know, the security chip from Microchip, the security microprocessor that's specifically designed for security applications.
It has a lot more security features than, like, the current processor that you'll find in passport today or cold card or some of these other devices. It has active tamper protection. It has armed trust zone, which is like a secure environment in the chip. We're not gonna be using that on day 1, but we are working to bring QoS into the trust zone environment as well, which is gonna be really cool. We have the same secure element series, the microchip 608 secure element. So very similar architecture to where we're storing some information on that so that not all your eggs are in one basket on the main processor. We also have the separate Bluetooth and separate NFC chips. We have 64 gigabytes of flash storage, 50 gigabytes of which is available to the user for the files app. We're reserving some extra just in case, you know, we need it in the future. Because maybe we're gonna have some users that wanna install like a 100 apps. We wanna make sure that there's plenty of storage and, you know, plenty of availability to expand the functionality because that's not something we can really adjust after shipping. So 64 gigs of storage, 50 gigs available to the user. We have a, rechargeable lithium ion battery. It is internal, so it's not user replaceable. So that's also a big shift compared to Passport today. So, you know, there's pros and cons to that. One of the biggest pros is that we've made the device fully gasketed, and so we hope it'll be fully waterproof. We're saying water resistant right now, but we are gonna go for the certifications and make sure this is as waterproof as possible. The goal is that you'd be able to submerge this in water and, you know, not not have any issues with it. So that's pretty cool. Do all your UTXO management in the bath.
The joke is that, you know, if if we get it right, we can do a nice marketing campaign. Right? Making boating accidents a thing of the past. Maybe we'll we'll do hire like a scuba diver, you know, or or something like that to retrieve the passport prime that falls in the ocean. I I think that's all the hardware elements, though. I think I hit on all of it. It's way more in-depth than what we've ever done. I mean, you open this thing up. The circuit board is packed so densely with components. The fact that we were able to get everything I just said in a circuit board that, in terms of circuit board area, is roughly the size of the current gen passport. Because the current gen passport has the battery stacked on top of the board, so the entire device is a circuit board under like, if you open it up. But this thing, there's a massive cutout in the circuit board for the battery.
So the battery actually sits side by side with the circuit board. So we just an incredible amount of engineering, all internal, you know, we didn't outsource it. We probably have some of the best electrical engineering in the space. It's a circuit board that is much closer to what you'd see in a modern smartphone than what you see in any of these hardware wallets today.
[01:30:43] Unknown:
I was just gonna touch on that battery thing because I was asking Q when he was going through it with me. I just thought I'd make a point on this is that even if, for whatever reason, someone can't get a replacement battery from you guys for some reason, you can still run this thing if you plug it in. So if someone was worried, like, oh, shit. Like, what if I can't get a battery like you can on the passport?
[01:31:06] Unknown:
For whatever reason, you could still power this thing on, and that wouldn't be an issue. Yeah. That's actually a good point. You could definitely do that. And then also, we'll probably have because it's all open source, of course, we'll have it. But we may offer in the future some program or something for battery replacement because the way that we're sealing the screen on is we're just dispensing a, like, a liquid gasket at the factory, and then we run it through the oven and it cures the gasket. So the entire screen is just, you know, essentially gasketed on with, like, an adhesive that turns into, like, it it it solidifies, but it also kind of turns into that rubbery gasket material. You'll be able to take a heat gun to it and pry off the screen just like you would with, you know, an iPhone screen replacement.
And there's tons of, you know, companies and usually local companies that offer that. And we could provide some kind of, like, kit in the mail, which is very common now for iPhone screen replacements or or smartphone replacements in general, where you could, like, lay a gasket back in there, you know, that just isn't adhesive, and you could, like, reseal the device yourself. Or you could take it to a place, or maybe we could offer a program where you, you know, you mail it to us or something like that. Now as soon as the screen comes off, the device wipes itself because it goes into tamper mode. And so this is actually another different aspect of the device, which I'm really happy we're able to do. We're no longer bricking it. Okay. If you guess the PIN wrong too many times, I think we're going with 10 attempts for this one. The device wipes itself. It does not brick itself.
Unfortunately, we've had a lot of users brick their devices, and we've replaced all of them for free, which even if it's used I mean, it's all I think it's all user error. Right? Because you you think that you did a certain PIN. You don't remember your PIN anymore. You think it works like Ledger where it'll just wipe itself. You could set it up again. Yeah. It doesn't do that. Right? And so that's been one of the biggest complaints and pain points about the current gen passport. Mhmm. And so with passport prime, if someone tries to tamper with it, if, if you get the PIN wrong too many times, it just set re it it resets itself to factory settings, erases everything. So we have a device now that you could theoretically erase completely, mail to us.
We could do the battery replacement, and then mail it back to you. There's little trust involved, and it's a little early for us to plan all that out, but if we're gonna try to sell, you know, 1,000,000 and beyond of these devices, we're gonna have to figure something like that out, and definitely wanna make sure it's accessible to the user. It's not like the battery is buried under layers of adhesive, and you have to dig stuff up. It's very much designed to pop the screen off, and you can easily just take the battery right out. How many,
[01:33:40] Unknown:
attempts do you have to get wrong on the current passport to break it? It's,
[01:33:45] Unknown:
21. Very on brand. 21. Yep. Oh, okay. So quite quite a few. Because I was thinking I've definitely done mine wrong a couple of times. It's it's consecutive as well, by the way. So so let's say you do 20 incorrect ones and then you get it right, the counter reset. So you then have Right. Next time around, another 21 goes. Yeah. And by the way, that's the that's the biggest complaint about ledger as well is that it's only 3.
[01:34:07] Unknown:
And so everyone with a tiny screen and the small buttons will end up at least once or twice in your in your, use of a ledger. You'll brick it and then or sorry. Not brick it. You'll wipe it, and then you'll have to reset it all up from scratch, and it's like a nightmare. And if the older ones, it was even harder because you only had the 2 buttons, and you have to say, okay. Now I'm taking 30 minutes of my life here to get my seed, and maybe your seed's not even in the same location. So total nightmare with only 3 attempts.
[01:34:35] Unknown:
I, I wanted to jump in here while talking about hardware and design and stuff, and I'm really glad Zach left this bit out for me to jump in. It wasn't planned, I promise, but I don't know what you're gonna say. It it allows me to to to take my victory lap. We, for the first time ever, are shipping Passport Prime in 2 different colorways. I forgot about that. Yes. Dark Mode maximalists like myself can rejoice. You're gonna be able to get Passport Prime in Arctic Copper, which is, has obviously, the the front of the device is is is all screen. But, on the back of the device, it will be the Arctic Copper is, is white with, a copper edging, very similar to the the kind of colors used in the existing, passport gen 2.
And we're also gonna be offering midnight bronze, which is gonna be like a beautiful and I'm looking at it right now and gently stroking it because I love it so much. Like a like a matte black color with like a darker bronze rather than the copper color. So, yeah, we gonna be catering to to both light mode and dark mode camps, and I am extremely happy about it. It's something that, a dark mode device has been something I've been campaigning pretty much since my first day in the company. So very happy that I get to to take a little victory lap here and very excited to please all of the dark mode Maxis out there.
[01:35:53] Unknown:
But it's it's a perfect example of how we approach the design process because when we go dark mode, most people would say, just make the device totally black. Yeah. And that's not what we're doing. We have the black glass, of course, on front of the device, which is both the the, light mode option and the dark mode option have the same black glass, of course, on the front. But then on the back, we still the both devices still have the black glass with the laser etched pattern on the back. Yeah. But then we have the more contrast. I wouldn't call it matte cue. I would call it, satin, like a satin black. Fucking get it right, mate. Come on.
And it feels it feels great in the hand. It's it's it's because you go when you hold it, you you feel like the metal. It's a painted aluminum actually on the back. So you feel the metal, and it's kinda smooth with a satin like finish. And then you feel the glass, which is a little more tackier. Right? A little a little easier to hold on to. And so you kind of have this texture, these different textures on the back, which is really cool. But then we've actually made slightly different changes to even the word mark. So the word mark on the light mode version is the copper, and on the dark mode version, it's the bronze. And then, of course, the aluminum anodized, as Q said, is bronze instead of copper.
But then the packaging is also different. So the dark mode packaging, of course, it's all black, but then we have the bronze color going through the center line of the packaging and on the lid. And then on the light mode 1, it's white and black with the copper. So we have different packaging. We have 2 different we call them colorways for the device instead of colors because it's not just one color. You're getting a specific colorway. And then, of course, the UI for KeyOS is gonna be able to do light mode and dark mode. And that's something that's another huge win for for Q. Yeah.
[01:37:49] Unknown:
Very happy about that. I am gonna be ordering one of these, and I'm gonna be ordering them in midnight bronze as well, Q.
[01:37:57] Unknown:
Just so you know. And I'm gonna be running it in dark mode. I'm really excited to figure out what the split is going to be.
[01:38:04] Unknown:
70 30
[01:38:06] Unknown:
in the opposite way to what you think. It's gonna tell us a lot about the audience because, I mean, I love the the current design. I think the white and the black and the copper is, is beautiful. I think it's kinda timeless. But we have had people come up to us at the conference and say things like, why are you making a device for girls? You know, this thing looks so pretty and feminine. And we've even had people refer to it, I think, not as copper. What did they they call it rose rose gold, which drives me crazy. And so I think the copper on passport prime on the arctic copper colorway, the light mode colorway, I think looks pretty copper. I don't think anyone's gonna say, oh, this this is rose gold. And I think putting it in the name is also important because you don't want guys to think, oh, it's some rose gold device. You know, this isn't for me. I instead want the, crappy plastic looking calculator thing. You know?
[01:39:04] Unknown:
Also, I think, Arctic rose gold doesn't really roll off the tongue as well, does it?
[01:39:09] Unknown:
Well, it was it was never rose gold. I mean, it was always copper. True. But, I could see how we had a slightly lighter copper. The irony is that Passport today, you know, both the founder's edition and the second generation, is actually plated in copper. So it's real copper, yet people still think it's a little rose gold. The new one, ironically, is not copper at all. Right? It's just aluminum, and it's anodized. But it allows us to dial in the color, you know, more to be exactly what we want Yes. Instead of, you know, being real copper and then people saying it looks too rose gold. Well, it looks great. As I say, I'm gonna be ordering myself one. I'm probably gonna get one for my missus as well.
[01:39:52] Unknown:
When can people order these things? Before we go into that, actually, I just wanted to say, I think we've covered everything pretty much that I wanted to go through. Me and q and a will soon be doing our Bitcoin brief. So anyone who's listening to this who has any questions, that would be a good opportunity for you to send the questions through, and we'll continue the conversation on this if we've missed anything that is. But, so for me and others who wanna order these, when can they get their hands on them?
[01:40:24] Unknown:
So you can get your hands on well, firstly, you can order today on our website foundation of x y z. We have 2 different ways of ordering. 1 is through our early access program, and we're limiting that to a 1000 units of passport prime. And so if you buy a device from the early access program, you will get it first before general availability. We're aiming for March of next year. So about a 3 month wait. Mhmm. And it's going to start with probably like beta firmware. So if if you're the kind of person that wants to be first, you wanna get the first ones off the line, and you wanna help us out a little bit maybe in the first, you know, several weeks as we work to that v one release of KeyOS, early access program might be the thing for you. We're also including with that a, free bumper case. It's like a rubber, you know, very slim case, and we're including a lifetime subscription to Envoy Plus, so you'll never have to pay for it for the magic backups and the other feature functionality we provide. And then we're also doubling the warranty to 2 years because if there's anything wrong with your early access device, we wanna make sure that we replace it for you, you know, no questions asked and that you have 2 years where, you know, if there's any kind of hardware defector or anything like that. And then Passport Prime is gonna be 299, 299 US dollars.
And if you're buying through the early access program, you're just gonna place that as a pre order, pay the 2.99, and you get all that stuff that I mentioned. If you are the kind of person that would rather wait for Passport Prime to be shipping and available and you want someone else to kind of get the first 1,000, right, and and maybe there's some kinks or or software bugs, you just wanna wait, we're also giving you the ability to just place a reservation, fully refundable reservation for $49. So you will have to end up paying, you know, the the difference, the extra $250 when we're getting ready to ship. If you change your mind, you can cancel it. We'll refund you immediately, but this is a great option. I think we're gonna have a lot of demand for passport prime, especially as we move beyond the hardware wallet. We move into other communities like the cake community, right, which has half a 1000000 users. Yeah. And so if you wanna get in line, we're gonna ship an order of the reservations.
You can go ahead. You can place one of those on our site as well today.
[01:42:51] Unknown:
Very nice. Well, as I said, I think we covered everything. It's good to hear that you guys, even through all the stress and and all the hard work that's gone here, sounds like everyone is still friends and pushing forward at Foundation. That's amazing to see. So I'm excited for this. I'm I'm really looking forward to having a play around, and I'm excited that you've opened this thing up to, cake, especially as I'm a heavy user of that. And, I know a lot of the audiences. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to getting some questions from listeners. But as always, you guys have excelled here, and it's fucking beautiful. And I can't wait to play with it. We're, super excited to get it out into the hands of, of our customers and future customers.
[01:43:36] Unknown:
It's been, you know, a wild ride as Saks said. It took, as with most hardware, it takes a lot longer than you initially anticipate. But, we couldn't be happy with the final product and, just very excited to to let the world see and get their hands on it. Just one final piece of information that that Passport Prime is not gonna be replacing Passport Gen 2, the current device. It's gonna be it's its younger brother. It's gonna live alongside it. So if you want the more kind of focused air gap device that does the Bitcoin only stuff, by all means, you can still go ahead and purchase that on the website today as well. It's a great point, Kia. Thank you for mentioning that because
[01:44:10] Unknown:
we want to build out a suite of devices. I don't think we're ever gonna be in a situation where it's gonna be one size fits all. Some people are gonna want the air gapped passport experience that we have today. We're gonna continue, of course, improving the software. We're actually getting pretty close to releasing a major firmware update for passport gen 2 that will completely replace all of the PSBT signing code with our own code that's written in Rust. So we're we're still actively developing the current generation passport even as the company has been working towards passport prem and kos over the last 2 years. And that's gonna be an amazing update because we're gonna be able to sign transactions of any size. That's going to put, you know, passport probably in a category of its own, and that PSBT signing code is also being used on the kiosk side. So it's kind of cool that we were able to create this new rust code, and we're able to bring it both to the current device and the new device. So we're gonna continue supporting the current device. We're gonna continue bringing features to it. It is starting to get into a more feature complete state, I think in my opinion. There's a couple things that we still wanna do, and so we'll continue to do that. But I'd say a majority of the company's focus is is on passport prime and keyOS, but I would love to be able to bring more devices. I would love to have a suite of devices, maybe one that's even at a lower price point because right now we're at, you know, the 199 price point for passport. We're at the 299 price point for passport prime, which I think is a great deal for everything that you get with it. And if you look at, you know, the price of buying all the different devices that it replaces, you're gonna be, you know, well over 5, $600.
But I would still love to do something lower cost as well. And so I hope that we'll be able to sell a lot of units of Passport Prime. We'll be able to use that revenue, you know, to fund r and d, create even more devices, build out the product suite. And what I really hope is that we'll look back in 4 years, and and in 4 years, Ledger will be, on the way out.
[01:46:18] Unknown:
It sounds like it. Yeah. Well, as I said before, incredible work, and, I think people are gonna really love these devices. I look forward to some more questions and updates and things, but, congratulations. I know that a huge amount of work has gone into this. I know how busy you guys have been. Is a relatively tough individual. I've known him for many years now, but he has been worked extremely hard, and it's all been worth it. I mean, like, sometimes I'd speak to him and think, oh, this guy's being a little bitch. He, you know, he just needs to toughen up. But, actually, what he's been working on and you've been working on, the team been working on, You put your heart and souls into this, and it shows.
So congratulations.
[01:47:02] Unknown:
Thanks, Max. Yeah. We, really appreciate you having us on to to talk about it. And, yeah, it's been a monumental effort from the whole team. We're super proud. So thanks again, mate. It's been a pleasure. We are. Yeah. Thanks, Max. Alright. We'll speak soon.
[01:47:16] Unknown:
I hope you enjoyed that. And I also hope you're ham fisting your keyboard or touch screen trying to become a part of the early access program. As always, everything you need information wise will be in the show notes, and don't forget to visit foundation.xyz for your next personal security device. If you'd like to reach out to us about anything Ungovernable Misfits, then you can write to Ungovernable Crew at proton.me, or hit us up on the social sites. And if you haven't already checked out the website, Ungovernable Misfits dot com, it's well worth taking a look.
We have articles, podcasts, clothing, and artwork. Thanks again for all the support. Thank you, Cake Wallet, and thank you, Foundation. Best wishes on the new release and for your continued success. I'll catch you on the next one, Misfits.
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