Welcome to the The Confab, the term derives from "confidential talk", which was commonly used in the Prohibition Era for meetings and conversations that took place in the smoky, rule-breaking speakeasies of that time. (00:02:48) THANK YOU TO FOUNDATION DEVICES (00:05:30) The Great Malaise (00:09:17) The Pattern Has Fractured (00:17:00) Then They Fight You... (00:27:14) What Does The Fight ACTUALLY Look Like? (00:32:28) Beware of the Zombies (00:42:26) Building Your Networks (00:51:50) Pandora's Box Has Opened (01:02:40) Shifting the Overton Window
The informal, privacy focused and clandestine nature of Ungovernable Misfits lends itself to these discussions. So, grab a seat and a stiff drink from the concealed bar, listen and revel in the conversation.
(00:00:00) Intro
https://ungovernablemisfits.com
(00:02:48) THANK YOU TO FOUNDATION DEVICES
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(00:04:15) It's Been a While
Diverter, how you doing, mate?
Hey, what's up, man? Doing good. How about yourself?
(00:05:30) The Great Malaise
Diverter and Max outline "The Great Malaise" in the bitcoin space. Users have fallen out of touch with the core principles on which the software built. Privacy was always niche, but at least the space at large was somewhat adversarial to the institutions and systems that abuse individuals every day.
(00:09:17) The Pattern Has Fractured
How did it get like this? In Chapter 5, Diverter asserts it's due to a fractioning pattern of users. Those who would have typically fallen away after the last bust cycle decided to stay, polluting the public square that should have been more ethos driven for the next bull run.
(00:17:00) Then They Fight You...
Chapter 6 is about the phrase "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win", which is used all the time by those in Bitcoin. But, with this fractured environment it seems as if they don't actually know what that looks like anymore OR they think they've already won with El Salvador Adoption, ETF filings and the acceptance of Bitcoin TM.
(00:27:14) What Does The Fight ACTUALLY Look Like?
So what does the fight actually look like? In Chapter 7, we have a great example in Roman Sterlingov and Diverter's recent attendance at the Finney Forum cemented that belief. When you have someone that is being charged and convicted based on no qualified evidence that is what the fight looks like. The State doesn't have to play by the rules and in fact makes the rules. So how will you navigate a game in which you, on the surface, have no way of winning?
(00:32:28) Beware of the Zombies
When it comes to punishment, the big bad government, as inefficient as it is, can actually move quite quickly when it wants to and it has the help of it's citizenry in these situations. Chapter 8 explains that much like witch burning or the scamdemic, people often mobilize on behalf of the government whether it be due to policy or acting as the jury. It comes in flavors such as grift, compliance, greed etc. that overall muddy the waters of principled disobedience.
(00:42:26) Building Your Networks
Well that's all well and good. So you're telling me that it's all intellectually rotten, compliance and greed driven zombies that will sacrifice the purpose of bitcoin in the name of NGU and government acceptance? No! In Chapter 9 the focus is on building your ONLINE networks and your OFFLINE networks. By strengthening these two domains you can begin to affect the zeitgeist and protect yourself against the censorship and attacks that are to come.
(00:51:50) Pandora's Box Has Opened
A Pandora's Box has been opened on the potential for censorship in Bitcoin. In the past, the act of censoring transactions on the bitcoin blockchain was an untenable thought, but as Chapter 10 outlines, the roadmap for how to accomplish such things has been shared widely as of recent. The networks you've built should be prepared for what's next.
(01:02:40) Shifting the Overton Window
The Overton window is the sliding scale of allowable opinion in the public domain. You may notice at times that there are things that remain unsaid even though they are obvious, that would be outside the Overton Window. While the fight exists against the physical in regards to transaction censorship, lawfare and unjust persecution Chapter 11 focuses on the battle in the metaphysical. To incorporate the principles of Bitcoin back into the conversation a battle must be had in the ideasphere. We need those in our networks to express themselves in the public square more often to gain visibility within the window.
(01:10:20) Using the Tools is as Easy as P, G, P
As one goes out into the world, mentally equipped with what the situation is, what is a tool that is available to us that is recommended to defend oneself? Chapter 12 explores PGP as a tool you should harness at it's base level: Encrypting and decrypting a message with a key, signing messages with a key, operating a key chain. Essentially stripping the third party UI/UX that apps like Signal provide and using it at it's base design. This will empower your understanding and help you communicate with your networks in the surveilled world.
(01:21:48) Until The Next Time
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[00:00:04]
Unknown:
Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless. Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. 0. Yeah.
[00:00:42] Unknown:
Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail? Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Today on Ungovernable Misfits, we have a very special guest. He opened up the Pleb Miner Month. He wrote Mining for the Streets. And if you care about your privacy or home mining, you will already know who we're talking about.
I had the pleasure of talking to Diverter. If you haven't already checked out his work or listened to previous episodes I've recorded with him, you're missing out, and you are in for a real treat today. It was great to catch up with Diverter, and we talked about our feelings on some of the changes in Bitcoin and the changes in the culture. I always enjoy getting his perspective. He puts things so eloquently, and I think everyone is gonna get something out of this. Before we start, I wanna thank everyone who's been sending in boosts. It really is incredible to see how this is growing.
I think 70 or 80% of our listeners are now listening on Podcasting 2.0 apps, which is incredible. And every time we get streams of sats or get sent in a boost or a question, we really do appreciate it. I also wanna thank all of the lightning disrespectors. Some of you will not use Podcasting 2.0. You will not use lightning, but you are sending in PayNim boosts. That is very much appreciated. So thank you to all of you. And everyone who's been buying the clothing, buying the artwork, and sharing this show with friends and family. It all really helps. Finally, I wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices.
Foundation Devices help keep this show running, and they do things properly. Everything they do is fully open source. Their hardware is absolutely beautiful, and it is fuckwit resistant. I use this all the time. I have no issues with it. I don't manage to break it like everything else. It is piss easy to use. And that's what you want from your hardware. You don't wanna be worrying, getting scared, and making mistakes with your life savings. You can use their companion app, Envoy, which makes labeling very simple. You can do backups that are encrypted, so you keep all of your labels.
Or you can use this with Sparrow. It really is the best hardware out there. And if you are scared to do this by yourself, you can go to any of the guides out there that make it very simple. They have them all on the website as well. And if even that is too much for you, you can pay an extra $99, and you can have Bitcoin q and a himself hold your hand and walk you through the process. Check them out at foundation devices.com, and use the code ungovernable. Diverter, how you doing, mate? Hey, what's up, man? Doing good. How about yourself? Just all the glamorous stuff really here. Clearing out the garage, organizing my tools,
[00:04:26] Unknown:
mowed the lawn, all that kind of rock star stuff, mate. It's that time of year, ain't it? It's that time we gotta get Yep.
[00:04:33] Unknown:
Spring cleaning. Everything's waking back up. Yep. That's it. Spring cleaning in the garden. I've been spring cleaning, labeling all my UTXOs, and pestering rabbit all morning as well. Trying to get myself in order.
[00:04:48] Unknown:
I can relate. I can relate.
[00:04:50] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a while since you're on. I was gonna check and listen back to the episode and, like, be a professional and work kind of stuff, but I didn't. So I'm thinking off the top of my head. It's been a couple of years, hasn't it?
[00:05:03] Unknown:
I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think, we did that, mining for the streets revisit there a little while back. Yeah. That's it. Whenever the the the plead minor monthly thing, I think that was the last time. So Mhmm. That's still going strong, though. I I'd love to see that. You you and, you and John doing good things there. Yeah. Well, I enjoyed it so much recording with him.
[00:05:24] Unknown:
Yeah. I just thought, fuck. We gotta keep doing this. It's always good just chatting to him anyway, and we're always in contact. And people might have noticed on this show, like, there's been less and less one on one interviews, like Mhmm. Interviews, conversations Alright. Because there's just seems to me that there's more bullshit and noise and fucking idiots in the space. And my desire to have these conversations with, like, whoever's on this podcast circuit at the time Mhmm. Is just 0. I just can't be bothered. And so instead, it's like, I do my monthlies with q and a. Mhmm. He's a terrible guy, but, you know Yeah. Yeah. Occasionally, it's okay to have a conversation and The worst. The same with John. So well, I don't know about the worst, but he's up to us like he is. He's definitely up there.
[00:06:16] Unknown:
Yeah. I I I think,
[00:06:18] Unknown:
I I think you you have hit on something that a lot of people are feeling and maybe don't necessarily know exactly how to word it. But there's a my opinion anyway, which is all all this stuff is. It's just one guy's opinion, but there's a general, like, malaise in the in the, like, Bitcoin community as a whole now as, you know, as is is destined to happen. The bigger that this thing gets, the the higher that, you know, fiat exchange rate grows, the more people that are just gonna continue to come into the space that are not at all aligned with what you would call, you know, I guess, the the original ethos or the more, like, central themes that have got this thing to where it is now. That's a very dangerous thing to me. I mean, it's it's almost like being a, a really good basketball team, really good football team, whatever. And you play a certain way all year, and you you have success with it. You're you're number one team. You get into the final tournament, and you decide in the final tournament, hey. Okay. Let's now let's let's switch it up, and let's, you know, change our game and start playing this way. So you're abandoning the thing that got you to where you're at because now you feel like you're on a bigger stage, so you need to act differently. And I think that's a that's a that's a mistake. I don't think we need anybody to take this thing anywhere. It's doing just fine on all the way here with the people that have carried it here. And so for those people who feel like, you know, we need the Wall Street's, the ETFs for the quote, unquote mass adoption. We need to start acting like quote, unquote adults, you know, and not have our own opinions online and all these things. I I think it's all complete and total bullshit. I don't buy into it for a second. And but I think that as this community has grown larger and larger, that that's that's a side effect. And so it's, it's not just you. You know? It's it's me as well. I know I've spent a lot less time online now, a lot less time on Twitter. I might go in, drop a tweet or 2, read some stuff, but I can't even it's almost like I'm just doom scrolling. I'm I'm scrolling knowing that I'm get I'm gonna get mad as I'm scrolling. I know it.
So it is you know, so so I don't even go. So, yeah, I mean, it's I think that's just that's an overall thing, and I don't really necessarily think that there's a way to avoid it. So what I think that we have to do is just make sure that it doesn't go away completely, that original sense of what are we doing here. There have to be enough of us for voices that are loud enough to at least make sure, hey. We're still here. You know, we we're not gone away. This isn't, you know, boomer coin. It's it's it's it's not just Wall Street coin. It's not just a surveillance coin because, you know, it's very easy to call it all those things, and people do all the time. But, you know, we need to make sure that, no. This this this this thing is freedom money for a lot of us, and it really is that, and we we're gonna continue to treat it like that regardless how anybody else treats it. So, yeah, I definitely don't think you're alone there. Do you ever feel like almost the other way around that we're not alone, but we are the minority now
[00:09:27] Unknown:
in terms of Yeah. Certainly. Who's involved. You yeah. That's how it feels to me. It didn't used to feel like that. When I first got involved, I sort of felt like Mhmm. Most people had kind of similar views. And Yeah. Like, I look back at some of my thoughts back then, because sometimes I write in a diary or write down my thoughts, and sometimes, like, oh, you're a fucking idiot. Like, I used to Mhmm. Used to write, like, oh, I've found people who have got the same kind of morals and ethics as me who are like Right. These are people that I feel I can trust. These are people, you know, like, Bitcoin as as a general Mhmm. Term and kind of, like, felt like, oh, if they're involved in this, like, almost 99% of the time, like, I could sit and have a drink with them. And, like, we get on with most things, and it's amazing. And kind of now, it's almost flipping the other where I'm like, actually, most of these cunts, I'd want a bottle. 100%.
[00:10:18] Unknown:
It's,
[00:10:19] Unknown:
it's been quick because I've not even been around for that long. Like, it's whatever it is. 6, 7 years, something like that. And it's it's, like, very quickly now. It's it's I don't know. I don't know what's happened. I feel like Well, you know, I mean, it's again, I I think it's I think it's really a direct correlation to to
[00:10:36] Unknown:
the fiat exchange rate continuing to rise. I really do. I don't think we really have to look any further than that. You know, 2000, what what, 17, you know, it had the the the big run up to 20. Mhmm. You know, I think that, you know, that brought a lot of people in. But to me, what it feels like to me is 2017, we had that big run up to 20, but then, you know, it went all the way back down to 4 at one point. Mhmm. So that last bull run and then bear market, I think people that was still sort of like how the original bull runs and markets were. Because, you know, same thing is gonna happen every time you see a bull run happen, exchange rate starts going way up. What happens? Everybody piles in. Everybody. I don't care what this thing is, including myself originally. I don't care what this thing is. I don't know what this thing is. I just I'm trying to make some money, you know, boom. Here it is. Now inevitably, we hit a peak, and we start into the bear market, and then everybody goes away. A few people stay. Alright? A few people stay, and they realize what this thing is, and now they lock in. And that's kind of been, you know, the pattern, I would say. And 2017, I think that that pattern held. A lot of people came, then a lot of people went, and a few good ones stayed. 20 20, 2021, I think that pattern kind of broke a little bit because we had you know, there was definitely, like, pain in the market. Don't get me wrong. It's definitely pain, but it feels like a lot more people stayed, that that normally would have left and went to other things. They would have went and bought their whatever, s and p stocks and all that stuff again. But now they're they're they're still here. So it's it feels like the pattern kind of fractured as far as the social aspect of it goes. And that's why I think, you know, like you said, it it feels socially. It feels like it's it's flipped. And, you know, privacy stuff is always, always, always gonna be a niche, like, a minority thing. Always.
But this isn't even just privacy stuff. This is an entire, like, fuck you money thing. You know, this it it even extends out from, you know, just being private with Bitcoin into something different. You know? Now the e the ETF, especially, is really gonna break things. So it it's difficult. It's difficult. And it's it's hard because you also don't wanna be the guy that, you know, like, I I don't wanna be the guy that, you know, I was listening to the Pixies first before they before they got big, and then you know what I mean? And now everybody likes them. I'm like, oh my god. The pixies are so, like, whatever. I used to listen. Like, I don't wanna be that guy either. You know what I mean? So, like, it's it's a hard Mhmm. Tight rope to walk because, you know, I I my personal opinion is that this thing, this Bitcoin thing, it's not for everyone, but it should be for anyone. And that's a big distinction that I think a lot of people miss. A lot of people think that this Bitcoin thing has to be for everybody. Yep. And so they're willing to make these trade offs that we find unacceptable, you know. And so don't know. It's it's it's a difficult time. It really is a difficult time. But, again, I think as long as I we're definitely in my opinion, we're we're not a a silent majority, but I think we need to be a loud minority, instead. And we make sure that we speak up, make sure that we're it's known that we're in the room, and just keep doing what we do. Yeah. It's a difficult balance because, like, I can't be bothered a lot of the time to have the conversations
[00:14:01] Unknown:
and, like, go to war with people because I've got other shit in life, you know, that's more important. And so it's kinda like, yeah, I wanna be loud about things, and I wanna call people out, and I wanna have the conversations that matter so that people see, okay, that you don't have to use fucking wallet of Satoshi. You know? Mhmm. And and post post screen shares of you doing that in El Salvador or buying a fucking kebab or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like Mhmm. For sure. That doesn't have to be what Bitcoin is about. But at the but it's like, you have to have the conversations, but you don't want to. And it seems like there's just less and less voices that I hear anyway in Bitcoin. Like, I can't listen to any podcasts anymore. There's there's nothing that I can really tune into. Most people that and I'm not gonna call out names, but most people that I used to respect to sold out in one way or another. Mhmm. And it's kind of like, okay.
I need to say some stuff now, but the pool of people to bring in is small unless you wanna just have confrontations constantly with midwits Yeah. Who think that you have to have mass adoption, and that is the goal of this whole thing, which doesn't really get you anywhere. So it's a it's a it's a difficult line to cross. And what happens is, otherwise, you just end up covering the same thing. Yeah. All I would do all the time is just have, like, you and samurai and John and Q and whoever else who'd, like, kind of all think the same Right. As me. Yeah. So it's do you know do you know what I mean? Like I I I don't I don't know what the balance is. It it's
[00:15:32] Unknown:
again, it's very it's a very fine line. It's difficult. And, you know, as you said, you know, these we had these arguments years years ago, and it's it seems like with every new person that comes in, it's just a blank slate, and we have to go through the entire process over again. And that's just oh my god. It gets so tiring. So, you know, you stop doing it. But, you know, the result of that, I think, is kind of what we're seeing. I think that's a general feeling. It's not just, you know, you or I. I think it's a general feeling, and and it's probably a pretty good reason reason why maybe, the social pattern kind of broke this last time. Because people are tired of having the same conversation over and over and over, and so they stop having it. I maybe maybe with the assumption that somebody else would step in and start doing it instead, and not enough people did. And so, you know, the conversations that needed to happen to, either get these people to to see things a certain way or scare them off, which is probably what happened in the past. It did happen, and so they're still here. And, you know, the longer that you stay in anything, probably the the the more conviction you're gonna get in that thing that you're in. And so it just becomes harder and harder and harder to dig people out. So, you know, I guess and and, again, being on in this position is a very difficult one because it's almost like I feel like if we're right, if we are right about what this thing is and what it can do and the the power that it possesses to to, you know, empower individuals. If we're correct in that, then it can't just keep going forward unchecked by you know, governments, whatever. You know, you can't just they can't just continue to allow people to transact outside of their control privately. It just can't continue to happen. We're seeing things like with Monero now. They're they're they're really activating the delisting thing. You know, so these these there's a reason for that. I mean, it it works. Mhmm. The thing works. People are using it. And so because of that, they're they're getting rid of it. Get it out of here. It's gotta be delisted, delisted, delisted. So now Monero is kind of in a really big test right now. I think it's doing fine. I think it's gonna be fine. But I think that's a similar thing with Bitcoin is, like, if this thing just continues to to allow people to do, you know, private transactions outside of government control, that there's gonna come a point where, like, the fight actually starts. And I think people, they repeat this mantra of, you know, the the first they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight you, then, like, that that whole thing that people say over and over, it just gets repeated. But I don't think they really take the time to think about what that actually looks like. And I believe if you really look at it and you say, okay, so what does it actually look like though if the quote unquote they fight you stage starts? What does that look like? And if if your thoughts are anything like mine on a transparent blockchain like Bitcoin, where you can see every transaction that occurs and, you know, if you're then handing over your entire identity to obtain this thing that they can then see every transaction that occurred, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. And so, you know, Bitcoin is different than Monero particularly, because and this is an argument I've made several times. But Bitcoin, unfortunately, it can be, like, selectively targeted. Right? They they get to apply this thing that they call Taint or whatever. You know, it's an it's an external application, so it doesn't matter what we really do on chain. They can they can declare anything tainted, and they can declare anything untainted. Thus, seize money from Silk Road. That's like, according to them, the most tainted of the most tainted. And then they'll auction it off, and suddenly, it's magically not tainted anymore. And nothing happened on chain. They didn't do a single coin joint. They didn't do a single anything. You know what I mean? It just it's just magically not tainted anymore. So you can't beat that. Yeah. No. It's fine. Yeah. There's no beating that. So because you can do that with Bitcoin, you can't really do that with Monero. They can't pick and choose transactions or or, you know, TXOs and Monero. They can't say, oh, that's tainted, or that was used here, that was used. Can't do it. So what happens? Well, they just blanket ban list the whole thing or just get it all out of here then. You can't use it at all. With Bitcoin, it's different. So in my mind, the very clear path for, you know, sort of like the the fight new stage would be that you don't ban the thing. You're not gonna ban the thing that sailors, you know, the the cellular Bitcoin, as I would call it. You're not gonna ban that, because why would you? It's a it's a tax revenue. There's no way you're gonna just get rid of this tax they're just fee they're giving it to you. So but you can say, okay. If you use this thing or acquire this thing outside of these approved regulated exchanges, Coinbase, Kraken, Binance, whatever. Like, these are the exchanges that are that are legal. You can buy it here. You can hell, you can even sell it here. You can send it to each other. Alright? No problem. You can still send it, but it's just exchange to exchange. Anything outside of that, we'll call that unhosted, and then we'll say that these unhosted, transactions and acquisitions and all that, those are illegal. And I think the path is clear. They've already started on it, especially in in, EU, it seems like. Mhmm. They're they're already they've already started on the path. The fat folk, you know, recommendations and all this stuff, like, it's to me, it's it's plain as day. So, again, if we're right, then the tools that we talk about and the things that we talk about are gonna become so necessary for any people that actually want to use this thing, you know, and actually, like, use Bitcoin as money, then they have no choice but to come around. There there's no choice. Oh, yeah. You know? And then the other group, they don't want to use the Bitcoin as money. Like, they legitimately don't. They do not care if you can transact at all. You know what I mean? They don't care if you could ever send it. That's just it's that's not what it is. So it's it's an extremely difficult situation, especially socially.
It's kind of why, you know, like I said, I've kind of backed out of socials. I'm not on them anymore. I'm just kinda doing my thing and and doing, you know, I've started going to meetups, this year. So, you know, I'm trying to I'm trying to keep like, energy Mhmm. Just in a different way now. I think it's a it's a more productive way.
[00:21:49] Unknown:
In person conversations is much better than, like, the screeching on Twitter. Oh, a 100%. Yeah. 100%. But it's certainly for your, like, mental health. But it's like, you know, certainly, like, for me as a podcast, it's like, you know, I have to try and reach new people. I mean, I have to reach new people, but I want to reach new people. Sure. And I want those new people to come in and be like, oh, what's this other thing? What's this ungovernable misfits? Like Mhmm. Why are they not saying the same things as I see everywhere else on Twitter? Like, why are they saying that it's important to actually try at least and keep some privacy and and keep the government out of your business and and Mhmm. Why are they saying these things? So then you have to cast your net out, and you have to slowly explain exactly how you laid out really beautifully there. It's like, I don't think people understand the opponent they're up against. Uh-huh. And, like, I mean, none of us do really, but, you know, to think that they can't crush us is really fucking stupid.
You have to be very sophisticated to do things properly, and I kind of think that, you know, they're certainly not stupid. They're gonna know that people are using this in the way that you or I would wanna use it. But I just think they're probably looking at it and going, it's such a small percentage of people who actually know how to use this in the correct way that we don't really currently see it as a threat. Mhmm. And even some of them are gonna slip up. Like, you know, even people if you said, okay. How many people who are Bitcoiners in inverted commas, like, how many of those people do something simple? How how many of them run a node? Mhmm. Okay. Right. Well, how many of those when they've actually downloaded the blockchain just do that straight over clear net, and now we have their IP address? Mhmm. Probably quite a lot. Yeah. Like, probably a pretty big percentage of those people they have the data on. Yeah. Okay. And now how many of those people are actually using any of the tools to make it more difficult for us to track what they're doing? Very few. Mhmm. And how many using custodial wallets and everything else. So, you know, they can quickly build up a picture of, like, okay. You bought from this exchange, then you sent it to this wallet, then you sent it over here. We can see that you still have control over it. We can see your IP address. We know where you live. And And if you become a problem, we're just gonna come knocking. Yeah. Like, it's it's not hard. You know, it's it's really not difficult. So that's my guess is it's not like, oh, they they don't have the capability No. Of coming and just taking your shit. Like, it's more just going, it's it's fucking it's it's such a small number of people. And at the moment, the optics wouldn't be good if we go and kick people's door down. Yeah. So we'll just keep a list, and we'll just wait. And if it becomes a problem, we'll we'll crush them. A 100%. That's how I see it. A 100%. And and, you know, that's that should be obvious to anybody that really really sits and thinks about this thing for a second. And it's, again, arguments I've made several times, but the same thing with a thing, in my opinion, like like Monero,
[00:24:55] Unknown:
where, you know, I'm of the opinion that it it staying this basically the size that it is, if that makes sense. Like, socially, the people that are using it is is the thing that allows it to continue to to run. I truly believe that. And, you know, with Bitcoin, it's not so much like the the actual network. It's the actual network of Bitcoin. It's so large. There's so much action and act like a a brute force attack, is is probably not gonna work. It it could, but it probably not gonna work against Bitcoin. But this, we've left the, we've left the back door wide open. And not only is the back door wide open, there's a big, like, bright glowing sign telling them, you know, hey. You could come in right here. You could come in right here if you want. So, you know and when it comes to things like fighting an an adversary like an actual nation state, everything changes.
Everything changes. And I really, really, really don't think people grasp it. Even I sometimes gloss over things, you know, don't I'm not perfect by any means. I hand wave off stuff from time to time that, you know, is probably shouldn't be, but I do it. I'm human. And, you know, we make we make certain assumptions that I think whenever you go against a nation state actor, especially one like the United States that currently holds the world deserved currency status and whose citizens overwhelmingly, I would say, want to keep it that way. Like, they're they they want the United States dollar to be the world reserve currency. They don't want this new thing to displace it, you know, and for the United States to lose its, like, bully position in the world stage. There's no way. There's no way. So when it comes to to having, like, the United States as your adversary, the base assumption that I think a lot of people make is that, okay. Here are the rules. Now, if both if both sides play by the rules, then this is how it plays out. They own the rule book. Yep. They own the rule book. They own the pens that write the rules. They own the hands that grab the the pens that write the rule. Like, they it's their rule book. Mhmm. So if you think that you've got these certain things that you're gonna do because they can't do this based because of, you know, whatever the 4th amendment. Well, FISA would like to have a word.
FISA 702 thing would like to have a word about the 4th amendment real quick. You know, they just they just, you know, passed this sort of thing the other day and and refused the amendments or whatever to keep it from being basically warrantless searches on all your electronic communications and and that forces providers to provide this electrice to, this information to, governments. And I mean, it's if you go in and look at the thing, it's it's atrocious. Like Yeah. You know, the it just obliterates the 4th amendment essentially in a digital in a digital age. So what are you talking about? These these rules are irrelevant. And that's America. Yeah. And that's America's one of the best
[00:27:44] Unknown:
Absolutely. And that's happening. Top dog.
[00:27:48] Unknown:
Top dog. I mean, you know, look at, Roman Sterlingoff. If it I don't know if you've had had paid any attention. Well, yeah, you guys talked about it the other day. But, you know, I had had the chance when we went down to Dallas and did the, did the comp the Fenny Forum down there. And Oh, yeah. How was that? Yeah. It was it was great. It was great. I have one little hiccup, but it it was it was great. I had a I I will go to my grave. This dude was a fed, that was just, like, on me. I had to kinda shake him a little bit. But other than that, it was it was really cool. Oh, really? Yeah. Like, it was bad. But other than that, conference was great. Everybody the speakers were you know, it it actually went better than when I thought it would if I'm being honest. Because, you know, it used that used to be guns in Bitcoin, is what used to be the Yes. Thing with. And so Ragnar.
Yes. Ragnar. Something like that. Yeah. Again, the guns in Bitcoin was awesome because everybody loved the 3 d printed guns. Right? And so Mhmm. He had to kinda separate away from the 3 d printed gun crowd for reasons. So now I felt like losing that, would probably make a big, big dent in that conference. And I really didn't think it was gonna be that good, to be quite honest with you. But I went because I like Ragnar. I wanna I wanna always support him and help him out. He's a good guy. But it was it went very well. It went very well. Much better than what I thought. The Monero that he he put Monero in place of the 3 d printed guns. It went well. It's, you know, only slightly annoying.
But, it went really well. So Tor, who is roaming Roman's, lawyer, Tor and Mike Yes. They were both there, and they both spoke. Got to spend a little time with them after the conference, just chopping it up, you know, got it got it back to eat and all that stuff. And I felt so much better about Roman's essentially fate being in you know, kinda in these guys hands. Because they're they're super super good guys. Like Mhmm. Normal dudes. You know what I mean? Guys, you can you can legitimately go grab a bite to eat with, sit down, grab a beer, just chop it up, talk about whatever. Good good dudes. And they're going in and they're fighting the fight that has to be fought, unfortunately.
And if you look at that case, it is so tragic. The the way that they just the jury, you know, God bless them. It's just normies. They're just normies, man. They're just people. They they you know what I mean? This is normal people. Yeah. Yeah. I have no understanding of Bitcoin, of, you know, blockchain forensics. They are still, for lack of a better, they're still in the matrix. They still think that, you know, the government's here to help. Why would they lie? Like, it's those people. You know what I mean? So Mhmm. To try and put to put these blockchain forensics up, and I won't go tons into the case because you guys have already covered it and all that stuff. But to try to get these just, like, regular people who, like, probably have honestly never even thought about the government maybe being an adversary. You know, it's just the government's here to help. They are that's what they do. That's their job. They're obviously, they're gonna tell the truth. So, you know, the presumption of innocence is just not reality, when it comes right down to it. And they convicted this guy using if you if you just look for a for a moment at it, like, there is forget reasonable doubt. Like, I would argue, hell, you're way past reasonable doubt, or you should be. It's so bad, the forensics, the blockchain forensics on this, that it, like, it's almost sickening.
I feel really, really bad for this dude because I genuinely think he had nothing to do with running, the Bitcoin Fog site. Like, I genuinely think that. And, you know, so the point of all that is that when they when the government is your adversary, they get to write the rules, they get to interpret the rules however they want to. Mhmm. Because that's a big part of it, is interpretation of what this rule actually means, and they get to change everything, like, on a dime. I mean, they could they could flip it overnight.
[00:31:48] Unknown:
So Mhmm. And they've got this mass of people behind them
[00:31:49] Unknown:
that are normies that, you know, they I guarantee if you went up to one of them and start talking to them about privacy, their response within the first 15 seconds would be, I'm not doing anything illegal. I don't have anything to hide. Guarantee you're gonna hear that. So that's who you're fighting. It's not only the government that you're fighting because, as you mentioned, when the government start to do things that the people, that the governed, don't like, if they do it enough that they push you too far, that's that's no bueno. Right? That's no good. We don't don't we don't wanna do that. So they have to do it in such a way that it doesn't upset the general populace. I'm telling you right now, the general populace is not going to be upset as soon as the government comes out and lays out a plan to go after these private super hackers that, you know, had do all this different stuff with Bitcoin. They're not using it like regular people. They're they're not using it like like your buddy, Mike, you know, that you see on TV all the time talking about just holding this thing and it's digital energy and it's cyber hornets. They're not doing that.
These guys are like super hackers. Let me show you what they do. And then they'll put up a Whirlpool transaction, and everybody's like, fucking, this guy's guilty. Like, it's it's it's so easy to sell that narrative. So I I just I genuinely believe people don't get it, and, I think it's gonna cost a whole lot. I just hope that it doesn't cost everything, I guess. Well, we saw it in COVID times.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
Like, you saw Yeah. Normal people Yeah. In the UK, just like normal people who were completely okay with saying things like, oh, well, if you haven't had a jab, then you shouldn't have treatment in a hospital. Cool. Like, shit like that. Like, yeah. But this guy's dying of cancer. Well, you should have a jab then. And she You're like, woah. Fuck me. Okay. You went you you very quickly turned, like, went along with this. So I've got absolutely no faith in the average man around me. Like, they'll turn into zombies in seconds, and they'll come and eat you. It's it's you can't put your trust in them. And it's kind of like governments are inefficient in many ways, and people do sort of lean into that and go, oh, government's so inefficient. You know, I've had a pothole on my road for the last 3 years that hasn't been fixed. It's like, yeah. Okay. Wait till you owe them tax. Oh, yeah. See how inefficient they are then.
All things change. You know, wait till you are on the wrong side of them because they are very, very efficient.
[00:34:14] Unknown:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they can afford not to be too. Like, the that's the the issue is as long as we're living very, very plainly in a fiat world, they are the fiat masters. So, like, they can afford to be all the inefficient they want. They can be as dumb as they want because they can do this over and over and over and over and just print more money and do it again. Print more money and do it again. Yeah. So it's like it's not like they're, you know, they have to be efficient. It's like the worst. Yeah. It doesn't matter. It's like they they just keep printing my will. Print another 6th tree and go after them again. It's like Mhmm. It's a whole different world. You know, there's levels to everything. You know what I mean? There's levels to everything. And and that's within Bitcoin, within society as a whole, as far as the people that you would say, you know, I get not get it or understand what's happening or see, like, the reality of what things are. And there's always gonna be, you know, the the levels to it. But in in Bitcoin, my, I guess, my early mistake is to go back to what we're talking about earlier. Like, I genuinely thought when I came in that anybody that was in this Bitcoin stuff or or, you know, into Bitcoin or whatever, I genuinely believe that they were smarter than, like, you're at the average normie or whatever. You know what I mean? I I genuinely believed that there was an intelligence separator, that, like, okay. Well, these people are smart enough that they get it. Like, then obviously, that puts them on a certain level. And I think that assumption has been broken for quite a while now. That may have been a decent assumption back back in the day, but Mhmm. That assumption has been broken. And, you know, it comes with that comes with a lot of issues, that we have to navigate. So it's a tough time. Yeah.
[00:35:55] Unknown:
Well, it's part of the reason, like, in my last couple of episodes, I've made little, intros and kind of subtly called out the McCormacks and people of this world who this merry-go-round of, like, with the Toreklem case in particular, it's like, okay. There's a thing that's happening, which is hitting the news. Let's get the lawyers on. Mhmm. Let's get them on, have a conversation, and go, oh, it's sad. Oh, yeah. That's sad. This would get some listens. Oh, cry a fucking river. Then let's talk about how terrible it is that there's chain surveillance companies who are preying on people and putting people behind bars.
Let's talk about how sad that is and how bad that is. Mhmm. Then let's put our hands out and take money from companies who fund said chain surveillance companies. Yeah. And round and round we go. Yeah. Oh, well, it doesn't matter. We can fund them, and then at least there'll be someone else who's arrested and is gonna potentially spend the rest of their life behind bars. And they're probably innocent. But, you know, that's cool because then it's another show and more listens. And Yeah. It's not just McCormack. It's others as well. And this is the thing. It's like, when you're talking about an intelligence test, it's like, are you fucking idiots who are listening to these shows not smart enough to see that merry-go-round?
Are you not smart enough to see how fucking disgusting and stupid this is? And if you're not, which you're not because enough people listen, then you're all gonna get wrecked. And it makes me wonder, like, how much of this is potentially social engineering? I was having this conversation with someone the other day. I was like, if I was a government, I wouldn't go and knock people's doors down for exactly what we said is bad optics. I would just insert some people in, cause some stupid drama. I'd probably put someone like Saver in and say, go go and buy a shitload of Bitcoin on our behalf. We own you. We own it. Now go and spread some narratives that are fucking retarded. Let everyone worship you. Put some other people in. Cause some rifts. Cause some rouse. And create a space where you used to have people who were thinking, and they had an adversarial mindset, and they cared about freedom, and they cared about sovereignty, and they cared about all the things that the groups that we're involved in care about. And let's just push that off course. Yeah. And that's what it feels like to me. I I don't think it's like the bar's lower and people are getting more stupid.
I actually think that there's, like, a malicious a bit like people talk about, oh, is, is China and Russia changing the way that Americans think or the western world thinks so that they, you know, they can affect the ways that society works to slowly bring them down. Yeah. Well, maybe. But if that's happening, then why wouldn't it be happening in the Bitcoin world? I would think it would happen quicker and easier, and that's how it feels. It doesn't feel I guess that's the way to describe it. It's like it doesn't feel organic. It used to feel organic, and now it doesn't. Yeah. I I I can definitely see that.
[00:39:01] Unknown:
Definitely can see that. And, you know, it's to be as fair as possible, like, it it is so easy to see all this thing all these things in hindsight. When you first come into a thing or, you know, I I'll speak for myself here. Whenever I first, like, come into a thing or or I'm first learning about something, I will readily admit, like, I don't go into that new thing that I'm learning, generally speaking, with, like, an adversarial mindset. I don't. I generally speaking, when I'm going, you know, into a new place, a new job, a new what whatever website that I've whatever. A new thing that I that I like, that I'm interested in. Like, I'm I I generally don't go in immediately, looking for, you know, the the subversive, way in. I don't immediately look for, okay, what happens if this is if it's, you know, an adversary. Like, that's just not how I do it. I just assume things are right, and then once you're in, then that's when you start, like, looking looking at your surroundings. I think Mhmm. I think people, especially with Bitcoin, because it's so, like, big. Like, the the concept, this whole thing is so big.
Like, it's very difficult to to, like, you know, master Bitcoin as it were, because there's so many parts of it. There's so much, you know, not even getting into the social, but, like, the game theory. Like, the whole thing is just massive. It's such a mind fuck that it's very easy to come into it and just spend years in la la land just amazed that this thing even works. Look at this. Nobody's even running it. Like, oh, it it just it just keeps going, and then it cuts in half. And then, oh my, this is just amazing. Oh, it's better. You know what I mean? And you can spend years like that. Like, oh my god. And just this, like, this this orange glow around you because you found this thing that's so interesting, and it's so cool, and it's so neat. And before you know it, you've spent years in this thing, and you've given up all your information to your adversary. You've done all this stuff that, you know, can now it's permanent. It's the blockchain's there. It's not going away, and it's and they can go back, you know, look at, Roman. You know, this is what? 2011? They went back to 2011 transactions. 2011, 2013, I think. We're talking over a decade ago. And somebody comes in and now and tries to ask you about a transaction that you made a decade ago. What are you supposed to tell? I don't fucking know. You know, you I don't still have that wallet. I've I've made 17 wallets since then. What are you talking about? You know? And it's like, well, no. Here here it is. We got you. So to be as fair as possible, like, I I I get it to to a degree. I get it. I understand how you could come in and not see see it. I understand how you could come in and be taken in by a McCormack, you know, by that crowd. Like, I I I I truly do understand how that happens. I don't have a problem with that. So the point then is how do we get this other message even in front of those people? Because even on, like, bitcoin Twitter, and and certain it it's really weird. It's a really weird thing. Like in certain, like, very niche parts of bitcoin Twitter, It's like I'll meet somebody and they'll be like, oh my god. It's diverter. Oh my god. That's you. You know what I mean? Like, oh my god. And then, like, the entire rest of Bitcoin Twitter's like, who the fuck is this guy? You know what I mean? It's like so it's like Bitcoin even even just Bitcoin Twitter, Not even the whole thing as a whole. Just that little niche aspect is so divided and car compartmentalized.
So it really truly is an echo chain, and that's what they want. That's what the algorithm continues to feed you more stuff like that. So it becomes harder and harder to get this other message, even in front of those people that have been taken in. And now they've spent years believing this thing and believing this thing works this way, and this is how it's supposed to be. And this is totally fine. This has changed surveillance because they're going after bad guys and all this stuff, and it becomes harder and harder to break out of it. So Yeah. You know what I mean? I get it. I I really do. I just I don't know what the solution is, really. Well, I think it's like
[00:43:02] Unknown:
what I'm trying to do is just consistent messaging. Yeah. It's like Yeah. Being very consistent on Bitcoin isn't actually complicated for the end user. Like, it's fucking complicated. It's amazing what it does and how it's built and, yeah, you could lose the rest of your life just studying it and all the rest of it. But, actually, as a user, if you're like, no. I get it. I kind of I wanna use this thing. It's not that hard. And so my messaging is like, okay. Choose one wallet for your phone and one wallet for your laptop, and I'm pretty consistent on that. It's like you, samurai, very, very good. You, Sparrow Mhmm. It's very good. Once you've done that, you can think about setting up a node and, you know, that's not the hardest thing. Here's how to do it. Yeah. Make sure that you don't leak your IP when you're doing it. And outside of that, and if you wanna use the hardware, I know loads of people are like, you don't need hardware. I still like to use it. But Mhmm. You know, depending on if you got your life savings in it or whether it's a few $100, that also depends. But, like, use open source stuff, and it's not really that fucking difficult. Like, it's No. If you wanna get set up, you can do it in a weekend.
Even me, I can do it in a weekend. I can be like, okay. I'll set these things up. And then, like, simple stuff, like worry about your labeling. Worry about labeling your UTXOs and having a a a backup so that you know that you're not shooting yourself in the foot when you don't need to. Just simple stuff like that. And what frustrates me is people would rather listen to the 500th episode of, like you said, like, cyber hornet fucking energy shit, and we're going to 10,000,000,000 because of this ETF inflow stat that we've got and blah blah. And it's like they get the lube out and have a wank about how excited they are and how fucking smart they are and how they're gonna be rich. It's like, okay. Could you just at least spend one fucking weekend not doing that? And just once, just put your shit in order. And that's kind of the message I'm trying to get out. It's very frustrating. Yeah. It's very frustrating. I I will say, like, as you were talking about earlier, the difference between talking to people online and talking to people, you know, in real life. I I will say,
[00:45:18] Unknown:
you know, I've done a few conferences now. And now this year, I've like I said, I started to make, like, a conscious effort. I'm actually gonna start going to meetups that are close ish around me. So I can, you know, I wanna build my in real life network as, you know, strong as what I feel like my online network is. Because my online network, I'll put up against anybody's online network. Like, I am so so secure in my online, like, community. Like, I'll put it up against literally anybody. I don't these are people that I legitimately call friends, and I I promise you, I don't throw that word around lightly. Like, these are legitimately my friends, and some of them I've never met. Don't know their name. I don't know what the hell they look like. Nothing about them. Legitimate friend. So I'm good there. Like, I feel good about that. But, you know, when it comes down to, like, in real life, I don't talk about this stuff with hardly anybody. You know, you do the little family thing, or I don't know how most people is what mine is, you know, the just the whole little family thing. You know, you get together on Thanksgiving. It's you know, you feel like the guy coming down from the attic. You know what I mean? Oh, tell us about your Yeah. Tell us about your bitcoins. Are you still doing the bitcoins thing? And it's like, Jesus Christ.
You know? So, like, I I wanna try to have some people that, you know, I I know in life. And not only that, but, you know, I finally, this year, was able to if I if you know this or not, but I was able this year to abandon my entire career that I've worked my ass off to build and decide instead I see this. To, yeah, to go full time on, on Bitcoin. So I'm paid in Bitcoin now fully. Like, I Brilliant. Fully fully living off Bitcoin. Nothing else. So it's like, okay. Now I actually need some people, like, in my life that I could say, hey. I need to pay rent. I need to do whatever. Like, hey. You wanna buy some Bitcoin? So, you know, it's a it's a mutual thing, you know. So anyway, all that to say, so every time that I've done these in person things, whether it's a conference, meet up, whatever, people are genuinely engaged, like, genuinely engaged when you start talking about this stuff. And, you know, I think a lot of the reason is because they've probably never heard it before, probably never even thought about it. I walked into a meetup and started talking about samurai wallet. One person there had ever even heard about samurai wallet. Alright. It did I didn't start talking about samurai. I actually started talking about taint as a as a concept in the way taint works. Had no idea what I was talking about. Alright? One guy that knew about this, and one guy that had even heard these these things at all. Everybody else, and there was, like, 15 other people there at this meetup. Everybody else was glued to glued to their seat, and it was like they were they were in it. So it's not that, like, the message doesn't resonate with people or it's not interesting. It's it's it's none of those things. Like, we have, for lack of a better term, we've got a good product that we're selling, you know, as as much as, like, privacy and the whole freedom thing. Like, it's it's a great product to sell, but the message itself just generally is less appealing, than what other people are doing.
So Yeah. That's the fight. And in real life, every time I've talked to people, they're they're all in about it. They genuinely, like, follow-up on stuff. They wanna know about it. They're they're they're into it. So, you know, it's just, to me, doing things like you're doing, because there's very few of these shows. But doing shows like you do, where you consistently hammer out the same message, you you you get it out. Eventually, this lands in those people's laps eventually, and it's a it's a trickle. You know, I think that's the difference in the 2, like, communities. The the, you know, number go up community, it gets flooded. It's a flood when the number starts to go up. But the privacy and freedom aspect stuff, it's always gonna be a triple. And that's, you know, it's it's frustrating to deal with. Are you now that you're earning in Bitcoin, are you in our mesh to adult group? I don't on Telegram, I don't know if I am or not. I don't think so, actually.
[00:49:17] Unknown:
I'm gonna send you an invite. Yeah. Send me send me one. Because that sounds like because so many people in there, it's all just like a group of people who are either regenerative agriculture or they're selling products or, they'll exchange in there. So for people who are actually living on Bitcoin
[00:49:37] Unknown:
and actually using it, It's really good. You know, you wanna buy lamb or beef or you wanna buy honey or you wanna buy maple syrup. You wanna whatever it is. There's someone in there, and it's more more centered in America, but we've got some really good people in there. I'll Yeah. Put your link. For sure. Yeah. That's I mean, that's that's kinda where I'm at with it now is, like, you know, I spent I've gone on quite a little journey in Bitcoin as as we all do. You know, I came in, bought this thing on Coinbase. I had no idea what it I thought it was just like a stock or something. There's absolutely zero understanding. You know, it's 2016. No idea what this shit is, but it's, like, 600, $700 when I start buying it, and then it starts going up. You know what I mean? Things like 12, $1300 for sale. Like, I'm a genius. You know what I mean? It doubled my money. And then I watched it run all the way up, realized I was missing something, and that's that's when I started digging in. And then I went through, you know, my journey of, okay. I'm learning this stuff now. I want other people to learn this stuff. So I started writing blogs, started doing this thing, then I started getting to know people. Then I ended up getting lucky enough to have, you know, being offered a job working in Bitcoin. And now I feel like my next, like, leg of my journey, is like the in real life thing. So I want to get, you know what I mean, a a a network in, like, meet space of people that I could talk with, that I can, you know, count on when you need something. Like, it's it's I've got family. Don't get me wrong. But it's a diff there's a difference in family and friends. And Yeah. It's it's you know, once you've kind of, like, woken up to all this bullshit that's going on, it makes it for me anyway, it makes it more difficult to to to, like, make friends and and, you know, socialize with people outside, you know, just in general.
I found that to be the case for myself anyway because, you know, I've got this whole thing going on in my mind. You know what I mean? And now I'm seeing, like, all these other angles, and I'm looking at all this different shit, and everything's being processed. And I look over at them, and they're just like like they're, you know what's the guy say? Like they're in an in your video. You know what I mean? Just walking around. And he's like yeah. This was smack him. Wake the fuck up. What's wrong with you? So, you know, yeah. I I think that's where I'm at in my next leg of my journey. So we'll see how it takes me. Yeah.
[00:51:51] Unknown:
I think we're in a similar place. It's hard to make friends with people who are it's like that meme standing by the barbecue is like, hey. Did you catch the game last night? Like, whatever you say about, like, crazy shit, and that's all they have to say. Like, fuck this. This is not the conversation I can have. Oh. But, yeah, there's loads of I mean, there's loads of people who are who are thinking in the same way as we are, and that's kind of what the mesh is about. It's bringing these people together, a mesh network of people who can help each other out in, all different ways. So that's been growing quite nicely, and it's been good as well. You've been putting some writing out. I was reading through your op return one the other day, which we put on ungovernable misfits.
So it's good just seeing some real, important articles going out because I don't think I don't know. Like, the the 3 main ones you know, we're talking earlier about what's the topics that are being discussed on Bitcoin Twitter and a lot of the, like, stupid stuff that makes you just be like, oh, fuck. I just wanna turn this thing off. Yeah. Yeah. Like, some of the ones for me is, at the moment, all this mining censorship and people, like, getting excited about ocean bro. Is pissing me off. It's just like, shut the fuck up. And then this, you know, mass adoption, but we can only have one UTXO per person, and that's a problem. It's like, do you know how far away we are from this shit? Like, do you have any idea how far away? Like, all these all these little things Dude. Are conversations that I just don't think, like, people are going into enough depth. So when you write something like your article on, you know, the old return stuff, it's like, okay. Cool. This is a way that someone can can break it down and be like, okay. I'm not just listening and going on ocean because fucking Jack Dorsey is involved, and I think he's cool. I actually now know what I'm talking about, and maybe, I don't know, maybe censorship
[00:53:45] Unknown:
isn't great. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's and, you know, you were talking earlier about this, like, social and engineering aspect, and I, you know, I couldn't agree more. And it's it really, to me, like, shows through in those topics in particular. Because, man, I I really don't think people understand the Pandora's box that has been opened with this. Like, sure, it's it's like, a lot of this stuff could have always been done. Like, it's there's but that's the case with lots of stuff throughout time. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you could've always we could've invented the wheel forever. You know what I mean? Just nobody did it. Well yeah. Exactly. Like, you could have been doing all this stuff with mining, you know, and censorship and and all this stuff, like, for a long time, but, like, nobody did it. So it wasn't being thought about, talked about, anything. And now, you know, with this implementation and what Ocean is doing, it's opened a box that can't be closed now. And, you know, it's it's gonna serve to just further fracture, NIM pools everywhere. So, you know, I don't know if fee estimation in your wallet. I you know, I don't know what wallets people are using, but I I promise you, like, there's a very, very good chance that whatever wallet you're using, the fee estimation in it is absolute dog shit. And that's because it's probably your best stop pulling from, like, Bitcoin d and stuff. Like, it's that now we've got these transactions and actual public facing services where people can purposefully just bypass that mempool completely and go straight to the mining. Are you using Nextblock fee of estimation now?
Yes. Yes. And, you know, that's so Samurai is as per, usual, like, as far as I'm concerned anyway, just ahead of everybody else on on this stuff. Like, they they think about things that their users have issues with, and they, like, actually act on it before, a lot of other actually use Bitcoin. Yeah. And I think I think that's a big part of it. I really do. Because, like, a a lot of people don't even understand that it's an issue or don't even care about it. Like, nobody's nobody's talking about fee estimation or wasn't anyway. But, you know, try Samura was already doing it a little differently than everybody else. It it was, you know, wouldn't, it would not allow you to pay, you know, a too high of a fee. Like, there's there was always a ceiling, in samurai. Even using, like, Bitcoin d or a rolling average or whatever, there was always still a ceiling where it just wouldn't let you pay too high. And, you know, people that have been using it for a while seen some fee spikes, like, a lot of these fee spikes are very avoidable. It's just because people are using wallets that are absolute dog shit with their fee estimation. And because of that, then you start getting that's you you get these fee spikes. I mean, that's not the entire reason, but it can it's a big contributing factor. So, you know, yeah, samurai and then, next block dot is, you know, it's it's the it's actually looking at the current transactions in the current mempool, like, what's actually in the mempool now of your node. And it's looking at those and then giving you a fee estimate, pay and and a percentage of what is the chance that you use this fee. What's the chance that you'll be get into the next block? So, like, next block is a 99% chance that you'll get in, and then, like, you've got, like, a medium or a normal, which is like a 50% chance you'll get in, and then you've got a low, which is like a 10% chance you'll get in. But, you know, a lot of people don't understand how, like, the fee estimation is working, what's what's your wallet if you're not using, you know, like, something with, like, Nextblock. IaaS. What your wallet's doing is looking at already confirmed blocks, and then it's making a fee estimation based off of blocks that have already been confirmed, not based off of what transactions are actively in the mempool. So, you know, it's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things that, again, people don't really it doesn't really register, and you don't you don't think ahead, but just that little thing is it's a big, big deal. It's a weird one as well. Like, I've tried to have the conversation with a few people who are
[00:57:43] Unknown:
on the side of censorship is good because ordinals are not good. Yeah. Yeah. And I've never really, like, got to the bottom of where what they're thinking because I've always said to people, like, okay. Let's say that it's you think it's a massive issue that the fees are going up. Do you not think it's an issue if the fees don't go up in the future for minors? And they're like, oh, yeah. Well, that would be an issue. It's like, so okay. So it's not really an issue that the fees are going up necessarily. Your issue is the the cost for you to send a transaction, if you are sending a transaction, could be higher even though it's not really that high still, but it could be higher. And they're like, yeah. Pretty much. I'm like, okay.
Well, could you not run a miner to offset that cost? Have you thought about that? Like, have you thought about just maybe setting your fee lower and just waiting? I never pay high fees. I'm generally in single digits even when the fees are running. Like, how how often do you need to send one urgently? And it seems like they don't really have answers for it. I think what is happening is they are just following along with what sounds cool and the fact that something is, not technically Bitcoin or it's like a transaction that they don't see as Bitcoin, then it isn't right. And they almost see it as, like, a shit coin, and then they wanna attack it because that's the cool thing to do. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's part of, like, the in crowd thing to do. So I just don't think people are thinking through, like, a, what it means or where it can go, or b, like, there's ways around it. Like, when the fees are high, I'm I'm looking and I'm going, oh, I'm running some miners. Okay. I'm getting some more fees. Very nice.
Like, so what? So I've gotta so now I've gotta send a transaction. And if I really desperately want it to go through, well, okay, then it just offsets against what I'm earning. I don't give a fuck.
[00:59:31] Unknown:
Got it. So it's a hedge. You got the the transaction fee hedge. Yeah. My, I think my biggest, issue or at least one of the biggest issues I have with the whole I'll just call it the ordinal thing, but everything that it encompasses is what really, really gets to me is that it has been made into a moral issue. It is now a morality issue, for so many people. It's fucking annoying. And that really, really, really gets to me. Like, this is not some, like, morality test of, you know, well, if you're using Bitcoin in a moral way, which is to say what? What does that mean exactly? That I can only send a a a a one input, 2 output transaction?
Because that's the thing that I'm I'm getting more recently is I don't see how it's an exact quote, I think, or really close to exact quote. I don't see how it can be controversial to say that everybody should use the block chain in the most efficient way possible. Well, I do. I see how they can be controversial because if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion, then what you're left with is only using, like, 1 input in, 2 output out, single spin transactions. That means, you know, on an open transparent blockchain, you're not gonna be able to introduce any extra inputs or outputs to the transaction in order to try to, you know, muddy the waters of change surveillance. Like, everything has to be a 100% deterministic spend.
Like, it's it's very easy to follow this. So whenever it's been turned now to where, you know, it's it's, again, it's a morality issue. It's it's something where you're either a good person because you're using Bitcoin the way that it should be used. That way, we can look out for all the all the children of the world. You know, won't somebody think of the children as opposed to it's it's always the won't somebody think of the children crowd. I swear to god. And it's always those people that won't you think of the children out in whatever, out in Africa, they'll say that as a child, like, literally lies starving at their foot in front of them. A you know, like, it's every single time. Mhmm. But Bitcoin functions as well as it does because the incentives are aligned such that every person acting in their best interest is what is in the best interest of the network as a result. That's why it works that as well as it does. That's why it's, you know, quote unquote money for enemies, as is said so often, but people I don't really think get what that means. If you do what is in your best interest, that is in turn also in the best interest of the network. That's how proper incentives align. If you do something that, you know, for, like, the greater good, as you might think, that that's that's you're essentially, like, trying to rely too heavily on, you know, altruistic tendencies or people that just want to do stuff for the better of the world. You can't that's not tenable. That's not sustainable. You can't continue to do that. People have to see, like, tangible benefits, you know, from something. There has to be a tangible benefit to them, to that person for, like, a a robust system like Bitcoin to sustain, in my opinion. So the whole morality thing being introduced and, you know, you're you're ruining Bitcoin for the future of the children and all this stuff, like, as soon as you start down that path, you have 100% lost me, and I would not hear anything you have to say on the subject any longer. I'm just telling you. That's not More honestly doesn't pay the bills. Yeah. It's not the way you're gonna win me over. I promise it's not. Yeah. Morality doesn't pay the bills. It's like you're a miner.
[01:03:11] Unknown:
You're paying your energy bill. There's transactions coming through with fees on them. If you are logical, you'd go, thank you very much. I'll have those. And I think that's kind of the way that it eventually goes. Like, anyone that I've spoken to who minds in a serious way just isn't taking this stuff seriously. They're like, it's fucking stupid, and the incentives are aligned in that way that that works. So I don't know. I I kind of see this going away as just you know, it's it's everywhere. And my my concern is not the minors who are gonna switch over and go, oh, yes, please. I'm gonna earn less money. Like, I don't see that happening.
No. But it's more like that it's changing the way that people talk about on what they believe to be acceptable. Like Exact swear to god, like, 2 years ago, if someone had said, hey. Should we, like, filter stuff on Bitcoin? Like, people would be like, shut the fuck up. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, it's retard. Dude,
[01:04:07] Unknown:
look at the reaction when this originally, or I don't know if you say originally, but years ago when, you know, when Luke in his custom fork, when he inserted the blacklist and didn't tell anybody, and it just, like, sneakily got inserted to this thing. There was an uproar. Paper. Oh, blah blah blah blah blah. You know? And and people and there was you know, he was censoring or or put on the blacklist, like, it was like Satoshi Dice, like, gambling sites, stuff like that, like, Satoshi Dice and stuff like that. And he was just, you know, so it didn't snow, but would blacklist him. Uproar, people weren't going for it. I think the so couple things. Number 1, I see this argument like everyone. Maybe it's just my feet. I don't know. But it's all over. It's like it's so loud about running knots in particular. All these node implementations are starting to put it into where you can run knots in the node and, like, start 9 and Umbrel and, sit at the all these things are, like, putting in. You can run knots. You can run knots. You can run knots. Meanwhile, there's one single implementation that is explicitly banning it. But anyway so so, and we I I would like to just say it, Luis, send us on that here in a second. But here's my point. So to me, like like, it's everywhere. And whenever that a topic is so large like that and you like, it's it's it's almost like it's ubiquitous. You could see it everywhere. But you're not seeing, like, any actual action behind that. It doesn't move people to do the thing. And what I mean by that is if you look at, like, how many reachable knots nodes there are on something like like a bitnodes.io, you know, you can go in, you can search for node tags, and you can see, like, how many of these reachable nodes are there on the network. And there there don't get me wrong. There are certainly more knots nodes on the network now than there were before this thing started because nobody was running it hardly. So there are more, but there's still it's like it's broke a little over 300 now. It's like it's still trailing well behind, just dojo. That like, just Ronin or samurai dojo. It's still trailing well behind that. And so the fact that, like, it feels so loud, this whole argument is so loud, and everybody's opinion on it is so everywhere, but we're I'm not really seeing, like, the tangible result of that. To me, that is an indication that it doesn't really have legs. People really aren't into it. Mhmm. But the problem is what you mentioned. It shifts the conversation.
It shifts the the Overton window of censorship basically on Bitcoin, and what is okay and what is not okay. And that shift is way more important than how many knots nodes are on the network. That's that's an irrelevant, like, you know, metric in the in the scheme of things. But what we consider acceptable as far as, you know, restricting the things that people can do with their own money. That's a big, big thing. So I think you're a 100% right. Like, the social aspect of this is what is is important. And so, you know, it's really, honestly, like, I've had more, I guess, back and forth maybe about this than anything lately because I don't really I've already had the conversations about everything else. But this is important to make sure that people really understand what they're what they're advocating for and what there's what the, you know, the the avenue, the door that they're opening. Like, it's this is a big problem if you can't see what this leads to inevitably down the road. So yeah. But and just real quick on the because I see this everywhere, and I know people have probably pointed it out, but I just it's so it just drives me crazy.
If you if you are a node operator, if you're running a node. Right? And so when you send a Bitcoin transaction, it it is broadcast from your node. Your node connects to a bunch of other nodes that are called peers, who then broadcast it out into the net. Like, this is how your transaction gets out, broadcast it from your node. If your node is connected to a bunch of peers that are running a node implementation that explicitly refuses to relay some transactions that you do in your wallet. That is ridiculously dumb. And your transaction is not gonna go anywhere. So of course, you have to block those peers so that your transaction could be broadcast to the network. Like, the fact that we that right there still I see come up is like, holy shit, bro. How do you not get this? But they use that they use that, you know what I mean, as like a way to say, oh, well, see, now look.
Yes, samurai's doing censorship, see, everybody, oh, it's okay when you do it. That's not the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's very, very aggravating because that's that's part of the social thing to me is, you know, I hate the whole spook thing. You know what I mean? It's a spook because everybody's a spook. Everybody's a spook. But the reality is there are definitely, like, legitimate spooks. And they saw this discord, and it's easy for some people to to grab on to, you know, to, like, grab a hold of because, again, they're the type of people that don't really like to dig and get to the root of a thing. They just see something that they like, and they go with it. And, you know, the people in, like, the general samurai wallet community are just fucking assholes.
There's a lot of assholes. You know, there's a lot of assholes. Like, the the asshole to, like, normie ratio is just off the freakin' charts. But there's a good reason behind it. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, a lot of it is just like if I can sow just a little bit of discord, then these guys, are like, they're gonna just run they're gonna hate this whole crew. And so everything then that is talked about or discussed or anything that happens to that particular group of people is actually fine because fuck those people. So, you know, if this, I'm curious. Like, it it makes me wonder, you know, if somebody like a BlueWallet or a, whatever, so whoever else, whatever wallet you like, was the one that was gonna have their transaction not be broadcast because we're running this note. I wonder how that changes the conversation. I wonder how much of it was like, yeah. Absolutely. Let's go because
[01:10:07] Unknown:
fuck these dudes. Fucking scam right anyway. Mhmm. You know what I mean? Like, it really Probably a lot. Yeah. I I'm curious. I would say probably a lot. And and and also, like, how many people are actually using PayNIMs and how many people are actually doing this kind of stuff. Like, it's it's such a small percentage. People don't even probably know what the fuck it is. A 100%. So they're like, yeah. It doesn't affect me. So whatever. And Yes. Like you say, like, fuck those guys. They were mean. They called me, they called me a retard or something like that. And it's like, because you are. You're right. Yeah. They did call you a they did call you a retard. So so I do think, yeah, it's it's easy to, like, these people wanna be in the in group and wanna be liked and wanna go up on stages and wanna go on sailors and all this type of stuff. You know? So they're they're gonna go against people who are mean to those people, so it's kind of easy to socially engineer them. Yeah. All of that in mind, are there any tools or things that you are using and recommending outside of, like, the things that we've discussed, outside of, like, fee estimators and the wallets that we've discussed. Is there anything that you're thinking about to protect yourself that you that you're willing to talk about? I know there's probably stuff you're not, but No. It's totally fine. Any sort of advice? I tell you, it's kind of,
[01:11:21] Unknown:
kind of almost went in reverse a little bit maybe in some ways. Something that I I I used to, like, really use and be into, then I kinda got away from it a little bit. And now I'm really getting back into and really starting to to use is, PGP on on a lot of my stuff. You know, I I I got away from using PGP because, no, you there are a lot of products out these days that, you know, offer encryption, end to end encryption and things that, you know, they they automatically decrypt all this stuff for you. Like, there's they're making it very easy in a lot of these cases to be able to actually use encryption. And I'm not saying the encryption doesn't work. The encryption probably is is fine. But, you know, using a a third party as we are you know, obviously, it's security hole. But when you're using something and you're trusting them to encrypt it for you, you know, for the sake of some convenience, it's it's, you know, it's a recipe for disaster. And I I kind of got away from it from a little for a little bit, but it feels like we're starting to get back into that time where shit's gonna start getting a little wicked. You know, you had the the thing with the Tornado Cash Devs, and then you had this thing with with Roman Sterlingoff. And then, you know, we had this letter that Samura wallet came out and was like the head of the letter. You know, a lot of other companies signed on to it, you know, 1031 and all that, but sent this, this this letter about these regulations off. And, you know, like, yes, it's a letter and a lot of other people sent letters and all that stuff, but, like, how many of those other people are offering the type of services that Samura Wallet, like, offers? Mhmm. You know what I mean? Like, the some of the people that signed on to that letter and I'm I'm not knocking them. Don't get me wrong. But some of the people that signed on to that letter, like, they're not a threat. They're not doing anything subversive in the least. You know, it there's a KYC exchange that collects all your information and sends it to this government. You know? Again, kudos to them for signing a letter and standing up and saying, hey. This is wrong. But let's be real. Like, you're you know? They're they don't give a shit about you. But now, Samura World They're not in the firing line. Yeah. Now, Samara wallet on the other hand, like, the whole goal of and the whole thing that the wallet does is give you, you know, transactional privacy. It's the whole idea.
And so that's an easy target. And now they hear they've had mine signed this letter. Boom. Right? All these other people, they already hate them. So it's like, to me, it just feels like we're entering a time where I could very easily see it starting to get a little choppy. And when I start feeling that way, which is a it's bad. I should do it all the time. But especially when I start feeling this way, I really start getting back to PGPN all my shit that, like, e even closely matters quote unquote. So it's an old tech. It's a very old tech. You know what I mean? It's something that Yeah. A lot of people hate using myself included. But it is doable. And I I really, really, really highly advise people to use PGP, you know, especially if you've got, like, an Android device. You can use OpenKeychain. It makes it really, really easy to do, and you can, you know, you can really protect yourself a lot by using that. Because otherwise, especially with this FISA thing that they just did, like, I don't I don't even know exactly what all like, down to the details. I'm only reading summations of other what other people who have read the bill have have, said. And from what I'm gathering, it's it's basically a rubber stamp for these and these companies are gonna be essentially forced to hand over information without having to seek a warrant on US citizens, and this is, you know, from, like, companies, from providers. So telecom communicators. So all these people anything any bit of your encryption, or, communication that's not encrypted, that's done off the top. And then even when you get into some of the services that maybe are encrypted, you know, some of these services are untested. I don't know how they're gonna act, what they're gonna do when they really, like, come for them. You know what I mean? Signal, I would say we we do have a result on signal. It's been some years now. My people talk shit about signal all the time, but I'm I'm a big signal fan.
We saw what happened in a court case with them. It's been years ago again.
[01:15:26] Unknown:
Signal's pretty good. Yeah. But but, like, PGP, completely agree with you. It's Yeah. Very smart to be using that. But on the other hand, it's fucking horrible to use. It's It's such a hard way. Keychain. I've used Cleopatra, for desktop, and it's doable. But every time I do it because, you know, I do it for, like, certain things where I'm like, this is sensitive. I'll Right. You know? This is a dick pic going across to q and a. Like, let's let's make sure. Right. Right. You know, I'll make sure that that's going over PGP. But it's like, every time I do it, I go, how the fuck do I do this again? Yeah. What am I what am I doing?
[01:16:03] Unknown:
What do what do I post here? What do I and it's it's just, like, so unintuitive.
[01:16:09] Unknown:
It's such it's such a bot, like yeah. It's exactly why it hasn't I just wonder is there not a way? What? Is there not a way to this?
[01:16:16] Unknown:
It's one of those tools where, like, if you don't if you don't need the tool, then it is completely, like, in your way. What the fuck is this thing? But then when you need that tool, it's like there is no substitute. I have to have this tool. And so it's like you know what I mean? And but because there are again, as you said, there's, like, there's not a ton of times where you're gonna be consistently saying all these or or doing all these things that had to be locally PGP encrypted and decrypted. Like, it generally speaking, you don't have to go through all that all the time. But, like, whenever you're keeping files, you know, maybe maybe some tech text documents and and notes that you've taken from a meeting that you don't wanna talk about, and, like, all these things that, you know, we just leave probably sitting on our desktop or in a text editor or whatever just sitting in our files. Like, they're just sitting there. And, you know, so I I've I've really started getting back into making sure that everything that sits on my computers is is locally encrypted, and I make sure everything everything is the way that it should be. And I am far from, like, a target or, like, the biggest target or anything like that. But this is it's my freaking life. That's on the line. You know what I mean? So it's like, I've gotta protect myself in whatever way I can. But to be honest with you, like, so much work that I've I've just been working so much lately that I really I don't have much time to, to play with new things. And and I kinda regret that a little. I mean, like, I I want to. I like it, you know, playing with new tools and stuff like that, but you know how it is. You get into working and you're you're trying to do this thing and fix this thing, and then next thing you know you know what I mean? And you're just kinda continue using the thing that you always used. So I rely on shows like this, to be honest with you, to, like, put me on to new and interesting things. That's one of the the things that I do like about podcast such as yours that actually talk about shit that that matters is that's why that's what I listen for. Like, I I I like to guess. I like the interviews. I like the point of views, but then also, I really like get put up on things that I didn't know about new text, new apps, new protocols, whatever. So, you know, I kinda leave that one up to you.
[01:18:29] Unknown:
Well, it's interesting you said PGP because that's kind of the the new path I'm going down, like, personally, and a few people will be helping with this, like, learning how to properly use encryption. And I will be doing some more shows and and bits around how to do it. Because I was having this conversation the other day with someone. I was saying, okay. You know, you're going through all your labeling, and that's very sensitive information, all your storage of all your information on your wallets. And then you wanna do a backup because if you lose all of that, you're in a really bad place because that's happened to me before, and it took me oh, it's taken me literally weeks to try and, like, do my own chain surveillance to try and work out where the fuck I sent something and who to and when and relabel. It's taken weeks weeks. So now I've got it, and I'm like, okay. I'm gonna do some backups. Alright? So I'm gonna do, like and I have one on a separate laptop, and then I have, like, a couple of extra USBs. And then I'm like, hang on. What if someone got ahold of these USBs?
Right. What if they could then so then it's like, well, what do you do? Okay. Encryption. So then I'm speaking to Rabin. I'm like, what do I do to encrypt these? And he's like, well, you can use a stick, which you type in a code into. I'm like, is it open source? He's like, no. It's not open source. I'm like, no. I don't really like the idea of that. Okay. What else can I do? You can do this Verocrypt thing. And I'm like, what the fuck is Veracrypt? And he's like, I could probably teach it to you. And I'm like, can you teach it to me, though? And he's like, yeah. But you just like, we need some time, and, like, I'll go through it with you and just make some notes. And so that's the kind of thing I'd like to actually do a show on where I'm like, I don't think I'm alone in when someone like Rabbit says to me, oh, yeah. Just use Verocrypt. I'm like, okay.
This is you. Yeah. Now bring it to to my level, and let's make sure that when I have my wallet labels that I've backed up, that I really need, if I need that backup, that I can actually get into it and I haven't myself out of the ability to fucking view them. A 100%.
[01:20:31] Unknown:
A 100%. Yes. That's again, that's one of the big reasons I I still listen to podcast like this, especially if I see it on a topic that I'm like, oh, what is that? But, yes, there are so many people that do not understand, especially, like, local encryption, whether it's PGP or VeriCrypt or Lux or whatever. Like, people really don't get it. And so and that's totally understandable. It's not not a knot, but, yeah, I think that would be a I think that would be an excellent episode. Just something on Lux and Veracrypt, like, just general local encryption files and USBs and stuff like that. That's that's a big win for people because it's, again, one of those things where, you know, it's very easy to start. I don't know about anybody else but me. It's very easy for me to, like, start off gung ho. You know what I mean? I start off and I'm like, okay. Boom. Everything's encrypted. Uh-uh. You'll never get you know what I mean? And then like and then like, I had to access it 4 or 5 times, and I'm like, okay. Well, it's half encrypted. And then by the by the end, it's just a USB laying on my, you know, coffee table. And it's just like, fuck me, man. Why did I I I got away from my security practices. It's it's a human thing. It's like something that we do. It's why, you know, user experiences is important. It's not the end all, be all, but it is important that people are actually able to use the freaking tool fairly easily. So, yeah, I think that I think you you would really hit on something that a lot of people are interested in there with, with that. But otherwise, man, you know, it's just it's it's nose to the grindstone right now. Just, trying to get, trying to get a lot of work done. Is it, public knowledge what you're doing? Or I I mean, I don't think it's public public knowledge, but, like, I think people are probably pretty fairly intelligent enough to figure it to figure it out.
Okay. But, I believe it there. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
[01:22:17] Unknown:
Alright, mate. Well, it's been really good having you on again. It's honestly been months since I've just had, like, a conversation on this podcast. It's just been the monthly shows for for the reasons I talked to you about. Just not wanting to have a conversation with all the cons out there, but this has been refreshing. And definitely, definitely do it again soon, and it's kind of given me a bit of a fire of, like, okay. You need to cover some topics. There are good people still here. And, yeah, it's been great. That's, you're you've hit on exactly how I feel. Like, when I go when I went to that conference in Dallas, for example, it's
[01:22:55] Unknown:
and I got to see some some of my people, and I got to hang out with some of my boys, and it's like coming out of there. I'm like, man, I'm I'm reinvigorated. And everybody, we all need that from time to time. You know, whether that's being able to just talk to somebody or you or you see something that you just get you back into it, everybody strays. So especially in this stuff, it's so easily to get, like, discouraged, and be down, and feel overwhelmed, and outmatched, and outgunned, and it's just like, dude. And so it really it it means a lot that, you can find somebody and just have some good conversations and re reinvigorate some topics, get the old brain working again. That's what this is all about. That's why I'm going to these meetups. You know what I mean? Like, it's a big part of why I'm doing all the things that I do. I don't wanna allow myself to get so burnt and and just, like, jaded and black peeled on this whole privacy thing that I just throw my hands up because I've seen it happen a lot of times.
[01:23:51] Unknown:
Yeah. A 100%. We won't give in. We won't give up. That's right. I had some burnout, but I'm getting back to it now. So That's right. Yeah, mate. Thanks for coming on, and we'll do it again soon. Yeah. Thanks for all you do in the space. And for anyone who hasn't already read the article yet that you've posted on Ungovernable Misfits, I'll put a link in the show notes. And, yeah. Cool. Hopefully, we do this again soon. Yeah. For sure, man. Anytime. Love it. Alright, mate. Take care. Alright. You too. Thanks for listening. I really hope you enjoyed that. If you did enjoy it, consider sharing it with friends and family.
And if you haven't checked out Ungovernable Misfits dotcom, go and do it now. Mister Crown puts a lot of work into this. It's fucking beautiful. Ungovernable misfits dot com.
Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless. Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it. Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. 0. Yeah.
[00:00:42] Unknown:
Alright, you ungovernable misfits. I'm your host, Max. Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong? What if it's the system that is doomed to fail? Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Today on Ungovernable Misfits, we have a very special guest. He opened up the Pleb Miner Month. He wrote Mining for the Streets. And if you care about your privacy or home mining, you will already know who we're talking about.
I had the pleasure of talking to Diverter. If you haven't already checked out his work or listened to previous episodes I've recorded with him, you're missing out, and you are in for a real treat today. It was great to catch up with Diverter, and we talked about our feelings on some of the changes in Bitcoin and the changes in the culture. I always enjoy getting his perspective. He puts things so eloquently, and I think everyone is gonna get something out of this. Before we start, I wanna thank everyone who's been sending in boosts. It really is incredible to see how this is growing.
I think 70 or 80% of our listeners are now listening on Podcasting 2.0 apps, which is incredible. And every time we get streams of sats or get sent in a boost or a question, we really do appreciate it. I also wanna thank all of the lightning disrespectors. Some of you will not use Podcasting 2.0. You will not use lightning, but you are sending in PayNim boosts. That is very much appreciated. So thank you to all of you. And everyone who's been buying the clothing, buying the artwork, and sharing this show with friends and family. It all really helps. Finally, I wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices.
Foundation Devices help keep this show running, and they do things properly. Everything they do is fully open source. Their hardware is absolutely beautiful, and it is fuckwit resistant. I use this all the time. I have no issues with it. I don't manage to break it like everything else. It is piss easy to use. And that's what you want from your hardware. You don't wanna be worrying, getting scared, and making mistakes with your life savings. You can use their companion app, Envoy, which makes labeling very simple. You can do backups that are encrypted, so you keep all of your labels.
Or you can use this with Sparrow. It really is the best hardware out there. And if you are scared to do this by yourself, you can go to any of the guides out there that make it very simple. They have them all on the website as well. And if even that is too much for you, you can pay an extra $99, and you can have Bitcoin q and a himself hold your hand and walk you through the process. Check them out at foundation devices.com, and use the code ungovernable. Diverter, how you doing, mate? Hey, what's up, man? Doing good. How about yourself? Just all the glamorous stuff really here. Clearing out the garage, organizing my tools,
[00:04:26] Unknown:
mowed the lawn, all that kind of rock star stuff, mate. It's that time of year, ain't it? It's that time we gotta get Yep.
[00:04:33] Unknown:
Spring cleaning. Everything's waking back up. Yep. That's it. Spring cleaning in the garden. I've been spring cleaning, labeling all my UTXOs, and pestering rabbit all morning as well. Trying to get myself in order.
[00:04:48] Unknown:
I can relate. I can relate.
[00:04:50] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a while since you're on. I was gonna check and listen back to the episode and, like, be a professional and work kind of stuff, but I didn't. So I'm thinking off the top of my head. It's been a couple of years, hasn't it?
[00:05:03] Unknown:
I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think, we did that, mining for the streets revisit there a little while back. Yeah. That's it. Whenever the the the plead minor monthly thing, I think that was the last time. So Mhmm. That's still going strong, though. I I'd love to see that. You you and, you and John doing good things there. Yeah. Well, I enjoyed it so much recording with him.
[00:05:24] Unknown:
Yeah. I just thought, fuck. We gotta keep doing this. It's always good just chatting to him anyway, and we're always in contact. And people might have noticed on this show, like, there's been less and less one on one interviews, like Mhmm. Interviews, conversations Alright. Because there's just seems to me that there's more bullshit and noise and fucking idiots in the space. And my desire to have these conversations with, like, whoever's on this podcast circuit at the time Mhmm. Is just 0. I just can't be bothered. And so instead, it's like, I do my monthlies with q and a. Mhmm. He's a terrible guy, but, you know Yeah. Yeah. Occasionally, it's okay to have a conversation and The worst. The same with John. So well, I don't know about the worst, but he's up to us like he is. He's definitely up there.
[00:06:16] Unknown:
Yeah. I I I think,
[00:06:18] Unknown:
I I think you you have hit on something that a lot of people are feeling and maybe don't necessarily know exactly how to word it. But there's a my opinion anyway, which is all all this stuff is. It's just one guy's opinion, but there's a general, like, malaise in the in the, like, Bitcoin community as a whole now as, you know, as is is destined to happen. The bigger that this thing gets, the the higher that, you know, fiat exchange rate grows, the more people that are just gonna continue to come into the space that are not at all aligned with what you would call, you know, I guess, the the original ethos or the more, like, central themes that have got this thing to where it is now. That's a very dangerous thing to me. I mean, it's it's almost like being a, a really good basketball team, really good football team, whatever. And you play a certain way all year, and you you have success with it. You're you're number one team. You get into the final tournament, and you decide in the final tournament, hey. Okay. Let's now let's let's switch it up, and let's, you know, change our game and start playing this way. So you're abandoning the thing that got you to where you're at because now you feel like you're on a bigger stage, so you need to act differently. And I think that's a that's a that's a mistake. I don't think we need anybody to take this thing anywhere. It's doing just fine on all the way here with the people that have carried it here. And so for those people who feel like, you know, we need the Wall Street's, the ETFs for the quote, unquote mass adoption. We need to start acting like quote, unquote adults, you know, and not have our own opinions online and all these things. I I think it's all complete and total bullshit. I don't buy into it for a second. And but I think that as this community has grown larger and larger, that that's that's a side effect. And so it's, it's not just you. You know? It's it's me as well. I know I've spent a lot less time online now, a lot less time on Twitter. I might go in, drop a tweet or 2, read some stuff, but I can't even it's almost like I'm just doom scrolling. I'm I'm scrolling knowing that I'm get I'm gonna get mad as I'm scrolling. I know it.
So it is you know, so so I don't even go. So, yeah, I mean, it's I think that's just that's an overall thing, and I don't really necessarily think that there's a way to avoid it. So what I think that we have to do is just make sure that it doesn't go away completely, that original sense of what are we doing here. There have to be enough of us for voices that are loud enough to at least make sure, hey. We're still here. You know, we we're not gone away. This isn't, you know, boomer coin. It's it's it's it's not just Wall Street coin. It's not just a surveillance coin because, you know, it's very easy to call it all those things, and people do all the time. But, you know, we need to make sure that, no. This this this this thing is freedom money for a lot of us, and it really is that, and we we're gonna continue to treat it like that regardless how anybody else treats it. So, yeah, I definitely don't think you're alone there. Do you ever feel like almost the other way around that we're not alone, but we are the minority now
[00:09:27] Unknown:
in terms of Yeah. Certainly. Who's involved. You yeah. That's how it feels to me. It didn't used to feel like that. When I first got involved, I sort of felt like Mhmm. Most people had kind of similar views. And Yeah. Like, I look back at some of my thoughts back then, because sometimes I write in a diary or write down my thoughts, and sometimes, like, oh, you're a fucking idiot. Like, I used to Mhmm. Used to write, like, oh, I've found people who have got the same kind of morals and ethics as me who are like Right. These are people that I feel I can trust. These are people, you know, like, Bitcoin as as a general Mhmm. Term and kind of, like, felt like, oh, if they're involved in this, like, almost 99% of the time, like, I could sit and have a drink with them. And, like, we get on with most things, and it's amazing. And kind of now, it's almost flipping the other where I'm like, actually, most of these cunts, I'd want a bottle. 100%.
[00:10:18] Unknown:
It's,
[00:10:19] Unknown:
it's been quick because I've not even been around for that long. Like, it's whatever it is. 6, 7 years, something like that. And it's it's, like, very quickly now. It's it's I don't know. I don't know what's happened. I feel like Well, you know, I mean, it's again, I I think it's I think it's really a direct correlation to to
[00:10:36] Unknown:
the fiat exchange rate continuing to rise. I really do. I don't think we really have to look any further than that. You know, 2000, what what, 17, you know, it had the the the big run up to 20. Mhmm. You know, I think that, you know, that brought a lot of people in. But to me, what it feels like to me is 2017, we had that big run up to 20, but then, you know, it went all the way back down to 4 at one point. Mhmm. So that last bull run and then bear market, I think people that was still sort of like how the original bull runs and markets were. Because, you know, same thing is gonna happen every time you see a bull run happen, exchange rate starts going way up. What happens? Everybody piles in. Everybody. I don't care what this thing is, including myself originally. I don't care what this thing is. I don't know what this thing is. I just I'm trying to make some money, you know, boom. Here it is. Now inevitably, we hit a peak, and we start into the bear market, and then everybody goes away. A few people stay. Alright? A few people stay, and they realize what this thing is, and now they lock in. And that's kind of been, you know, the pattern, I would say. And 2017, I think that that pattern held. A lot of people came, then a lot of people went, and a few good ones stayed. 20 20, 2021, I think that pattern kind of broke a little bit because we had you know, there was definitely, like, pain in the market. Don't get me wrong. It's definitely pain, but it feels like a lot more people stayed, that that normally would have left and went to other things. They would have went and bought their whatever, s and p stocks and all that stuff again. But now they're they're they're still here. So it's it feels like the pattern kind of fractured as far as the social aspect of it goes. And that's why I think, you know, like you said, it it feels socially. It feels like it's it's flipped. And, you know, privacy stuff is always, always, always gonna be a niche, like, a minority thing. Always.
But this isn't even just privacy stuff. This is an entire, like, fuck you money thing. You know, this it it even extends out from, you know, just being private with Bitcoin into something different. You know? Now the e the ETF, especially, is really gonna break things. So it it's difficult. It's difficult. And it's it's hard because you also don't wanna be the guy that, you know, like, I I don't wanna be the guy that, you know, I was listening to the Pixies first before they before they got big, and then you know what I mean? And now everybody likes them. I'm like, oh my god. The pixies are so, like, whatever. I used to listen. Like, I don't wanna be that guy either. You know what I mean? So, like, it's it's a hard Mhmm. Tight rope to walk because, you know, I I my personal opinion is that this thing, this Bitcoin thing, it's not for everyone, but it should be for anyone. And that's a big distinction that I think a lot of people miss. A lot of people think that this Bitcoin thing has to be for everybody. Yep. And so they're willing to make these trade offs that we find unacceptable, you know. And so don't know. It's it's it's a difficult time. It really is a difficult time. But, again, I think as long as I we're definitely in my opinion, we're we're not a a silent majority, but I think we need to be a loud minority, instead. And we make sure that we speak up, make sure that we're it's known that we're in the room, and just keep doing what we do. Yeah. It's a difficult balance because, like, I can't be bothered a lot of the time to have the conversations
[00:14:01] Unknown:
and, like, go to war with people because I've got other shit in life, you know, that's more important. And so it's kinda like, yeah, I wanna be loud about things, and I wanna call people out, and I wanna have the conversations that matter so that people see, okay, that you don't have to use fucking wallet of Satoshi. You know? Mhmm. And and post post screen shares of you doing that in El Salvador or buying a fucking kebab or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like Mhmm. For sure. That doesn't have to be what Bitcoin is about. But at the but it's like, you have to have the conversations, but you don't want to. And it seems like there's just less and less voices that I hear anyway in Bitcoin. Like, I can't listen to any podcasts anymore. There's there's nothing that I can really tune into. Most people that and I'm not gonna call out names, but most people that I used to respect to sold out in one way or another. Mhmm. And it's kind of like, okay.
I need to say some stuff now, but the pool of people to bring in is small unless you wanna just have confrontations constantly with midwits Yeah. Who think that you have to have mass adoption, and that is the goal of this whole thing, which doesn't really get you anywhere. So it's a it's a it's a difficult line to cross. And what happens is, otherwise, you just end up covering the same thing. Yeah. All I would do all the time is just have, like, you and samurai and John and Q and whoever else who'd, like, kind of all think the same Right. As me. Yeah. So it's do you know do you know what I mean? Like I I I don't I don't know what the balance is. It it's
[00:15:32] Unknown:
again, it's very it's a very fine line. It's difficult. And, you know, as you said, you know, these we had these arguments years years ago, and it's it seems like with every new person that comes in, it's just a blank slate, and we have to go through the entire process over again. And that's just oh my god. It gets so tiring. So, you know, you stop doing it. But, you know, the result of that, I think, is kind of what we're seeing. I think that's a general feeling. It's not just, you know, you or I. I think it's a general feeling, and and it's probably a pretty good reason reason why maybe, the social pattern kind of broke this last time. Because people are tired of having the same conversation over and over and over, and so they stop having it. I maybe maybe with the assumption that somebody else would step in and start doing it instead, and not enough people did. And so, you know, the conversations that needed to happen to, either get these people to to see things a certain way or scare them off, which is probably what happened in the past. It did happen, and so they're still here. And, you know, the longer that you stay in anything, probably the the the more conviction you're gonna get in that thing that you're in. And so it just becomes harder and harder and harder to dig people out. So, you know, I guess and and, again, being on in this position is a very difficult one because it's almost like I feel like if we're right, if we are right about what this thing is and what it can do and the the power that it possesses to to, you know, empower individuals. If we're correct in that, then it can't just keep going forward unchecked by you know, governments, whatever. You know, you can't just they can't just continue to allow people to transact outside of their control privately. It just can't continue to happen. We're seeing things like with Monero now. They're they're they're really activating the delisting thing. You know, so these these there's a reason for that. I mean, it it works. Mhmm. The thing works. People are using it. And so because of that, they're they're getting rid of it. Get it out of here. It's gotta be delisted, delisted, delisted. So now Monero is kind of in a really big test right now. I think it's doing fine. I think it's gonna be fine. But I think that's a similar thing with Bitcoin is, like, if this thing just continues to to allow people to do, you know, private transactions outside of government control, that there's gonna come a point where, like, the fight actually starts. And I think people, they repeat this mantra of, you know, the the first they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight you, then, like, that that whole thing that people say over and over, it just gets repeated. But I don't think they really take the time to think about what that actually looks like. And I believe if you really look at it and you say, okay, so what does it actually look like though if the quote unquote they fight you stage starts? What does that look like? And if if your thoughts are anything like mine on a transparent blockchain like Bitcoin, where you can see every transaction that occurs and, you know, if you're then handing over your entire identity to obtain this thing that they can then see every transaction that occurred, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. And so, you know, Bitcoin is different than Monero particularly, because and this is an argument I've made several times. But Bitcoin, unfortunately, it can be, like, selectively targeted. Right? They they get to apply this thing that they call Taint or whatever. You know, it's an it's an external application, so it doesn't matter what we really do on chain. They can they can declare anything tainted, and they can declare anything untainted. Thus, seize money from Silk Road. That's like, according to them, the most tainted of the most tainted. And then they'll auction it off, and suddenly, it's magically not tainted anymore. And nothing happened on chain. They didn't do a single coin joint. They didn't do a single anything. You know what I mean? It just it's just magically not tainted anymore. So you can't beat that. Yeah. No. It's fine. Yeah. There's no beating that. So because you can do that with Bitcoin, you can't really do that with Monero. They can't pick and choose transactions or or, you know, TXOs and Monero. They can't say, oh, that's tainted, or that was used here, that was used. Can't do it. So what happens? Well, they just blanket ban list the whole thing or just get it all out of here then. You can't use it at all. With Bitcoin, it's different. So in my mind, the very clear path for, you know, sort of like the the fight new stage would be that you don't ban the thing. You're not gonna ban the thing that sailors, you know, the the cellular Bitcoin, as I would call it. You're not gonna ban that, because why would you? It's a it's a tax revenue. There's no way you're gonna just get rid of this tax they're just fee they're giving it to you. So but you can say, okay. If you use this thing or acquire this thing outside of these approved regulated exchanges, Coinbase, Kraken, Binance, whatever. Like, these are the exchanges that are that are legal. You can buy it here. You can hell, you can even sell it here. You can send it to each other. Alright? No problem. You can still send it, but it's just exchange to exchange. Anything outside of that, we'll call that unhosted, and then we'll say that these unhosted, transactions and acquisitions and all that, those are illegal. And I think the path is clear. They've already started on it, especially in in, EU, it seems like. Mhmm. They're they're already they've already started on the path. The fat folk, you know, recommendations and all this stuff, like, it's to me, it's it's plain as day. So, again, if we're right, then the tools that we talk about and the things that we talk about are gonna become so necessary for any people that actually want to use this thing, you know, and actually, like, use Bitcoin as money, then they have no choice but to come around. There there's no choice. Oh, yeah. You know? And then the other group, they don't want to use the Bitcoin as money. Like, they legitimately don't. They do not care if you can transact at all. You know what I mean? They don't care if you could ever send it. That's just it's that's not what it is. So it's it's an extremely difficult situation, especially socially.
It's kind of why, you know, like I said, I've kind of backed out of socials. I'm not on them anymore. I'm just kinda doing my thing and and doing, you know, I've started going to meetups, this year. So, you know, I'm trying to I'm trying to keep like, energy Mhmm. Just in a different way now. I think it's a it's a more productive way.
[00:21:49] Unknown:
In person conversations is much better than, like, the screeching on Twitter. Oh, a 100%. Yeah. 100%. But it's certainly for your, like, mental health. But it's like, you know, certainly, like, for me as a podcast, it's like, you know, I have to try and reach new people. I mean, I have to reach new people, but I want to reach new people. Sure. And I want those new people to come in and be like, oh, what's this other thing? What's this ungovernable misfits? Like Mhmm. Why are they not saying the same things as I see everywhere else on Twitter? Like, why are they saying that it's important to actually try at least and keep some privacy and and keep the government out of your business and and Mhmm. Why are they saying these things? So then you have to cast your net out, and you have to slowly explain exactly how you laid out really beautifully there. It's like, I don't think people understand the opponent they're up against. Uh-huh. And, like, I mean, none of us do really, but, you know, to think that they can't crush us is really fucking stupid.
You have to be very sophisticated to do things properly, and I kind of think that, you know, they're certainly not stupid. They're gonna know that people are using this in the way that you or I would wanna use it. But I just think they're probably looking at it and going, it's such a small percentage of people who actually know how to use this in the correct way that we don't really currently see it as a threat. Mhmm. And even some of them are gonna slip up. Like, you know, even people if you said, okay. How many people who are Bitcoiners in inverted commas, like, how many of those people do something simple? How how many of them run a node? Mhmm. Okay. Right. Well, how many of those when they've actually downloaded the blockchain just do that straight over clear net, and now we have their IP address? Mhmm. Probably quite a lot. Yeah. Like, probably a pretty big percentage of those people they have the data on. Yeah. Okay. And now how many of those people are actually using any of the tools to make it more difficult for us to track what they're doing? Very few. Mhmm. And how many using custodial wallets and everything else. So, you know, they can quickly build up a picture of, like, okay. You bought from this exchange, then you sent it to this wallet, then you sent it over here. We can see that you still have control over it. We can see your IP address. We know where you live. And And if you become a problem, we're just gonna come knocking. Yeah. Like, it's it's not hard. You know, it's it's really not difficult. So that's my guess is it's not like, oh, they they don't have the capability No. Of coming and just taking your shit. Like, it's more just going, it's it's fucking it's it's such a small number of people. And at the moment, the optics wouldn't be good if we go and kick people's door down. Yeah. So we'll just keep a list, and we'll just wait. And if it becomes a problem, we'll we'll crush them. A 100%. That's how I see it. A 100%. And and, you know, that's that should be obvious to anybody that really really sits and thinks about this thing for a second. And it's, again, arguments I've made several times, but the same thing with a thing, in my opinion, like like Monero,
[00:24:55] Unknown:
where, you know, I'm of the opinion that it it staying this basically the size that it is, if that makes sense. Like, socially, the people that are using it is is the thing that allows it to continue to to run. I truly believe that. And, you know, with Bitcoin, it's not so much like the the actual network. It's the actual network of Bitcoin. It's so large. There's so much action and act like a a brute force attack, is is probably not gonna work. It it could, but it probably not gonna work against Bitcoin. But this, we've left the, we've left the back door wide open. And not only is the back door wide open, there's a big, like, bright glowing sign telling them, you know, hey. You could come in right here. You could come in right here if you want. So, you know and when it comes to things like fighting an an adversary like an actual nation state, everything changes.
Everything changes. And I really, really, really don't think people grasp it. Even I sometimes gloss over things, you know, don't I'm not perfect by any means. I hand wave off stuff from time to time that, you know, is probably shouldn't be, but I do it. I'm human. And, you know, we make we make certain assumptions that I think whenever you go against a nation state actor, especially one like the United States that currently holds the world deserved currency status and whose citizens overwhelmingly, I would say, want to keep it that way. Like, they're they they want the United States dollar to be the world reserve currency. They don't want this new thing to displace it, you know, and for the United States to lose its, like, bully position in the world stage. There's no way. There's no way. So when it comes to to having, like, the United States as your adversary, the base assumption that I think a lot of people make is that, okay. Here are the rules. Now, if both if both sides play by the rules, then this is how it plays out. They own the rule book. Yep. They own the rule book. They own the pens that write the rules. They own the hands that grab the the pens that write the rule. Like, they it's their rule book. Mhmm. So if you think that you've got these certain things that you're gonna do because they can't do this based because of, you know, whatever the 4th amendment. Well, FISA would like to have a word.
FISA 702 thing would like to have a word about the 4th amendment real quick. You know, they just they just, you know, passed this sort of thing the other day and and refused the amendments or whatever to keep it from being basically warrantless searches on all your electronic communications and and that forces providers to provide this electrice to, this information to, governments. And I mean, it's if you go in and look at the thing, it's it's atrocious. Like Yeah. You know, the it just obliterates the 4th amendment essentially in a digital in a digital age. So what are you talking about? These these rules are irrelevant. And that's America. Yeah. And that's America's one of the best
[00:27:44] Unknown:
Absolutely. And that's happening. Top dog.
[00:27:48] Unknown:
Top dog. I mean, you know, look at, Roman Sterlingoff. If it I don't know if you've had had paid any attention. Well, yeah, you guys talked about it the other day. But, you know, I had had the chance when we went down to Dallas and did the, did the comp the Fenny Forum down there. And Oh, yeah. How was that? Yeah. It was it was great. It was great. I have one little hiccup, but it it was it was great. I had a I I will go to my grave. This dude was a fed, that was just, like, on me. I had to kinda shake him a little bit. But other than that, it was it was really cool. Oh, really? Yeah. Like, it was bad. But other than that, conference was great. Everybody the speakers were you know, it it actually went better than when I thought it would if I'm being honest. Because, you know, it used that used to be guns in Bitcoin, is what used to be the Yes. Thing with. And so Ragnar.
Yes. Ragnar. Something like that. Yeah. Again, the guns in Bitcoin was awesome because everybody loved the 3 d printed guns. Right? And so Mhmm. He had to kinda separate away from the 3 d printed gun crowd for reasons. So now I felt like losing that, would probably make a big, big dent in that conference. And I really didn't think it was gonna be that good, to be quite honest with you. But I went because I like Ragnar. I wanna I wanna always support him and help him out. He's a good guy. But it was it went very well. It went very well. Much better than what I thought. The Monero that he he put Monero in place of the 3 d printed guns. It went well. It's, you know, only slightly annoying.
But, it went really well. So Tor, who is roaming Roman's, lawyer, Tor and Mike Yes. They were both there, and they both spoke. Got to spend a little time with them after the conference, just chopping it up, you know, got it got it back to eat and all that stuff. And I felt so much better about Roman's essentially fate being in you know, kinda in these guys hands. Because they're they're super super good guys. Like Mhmm. Normal dudes. You know what I mean? Guys, you can you can legitimately go grab a bite to eat with, sit down, grab a beer, just chop it up, talk about whatever. Good good dudes. And they're going in and they're fighting the fight that has to be fought, unfortunately.
And if you look at that case, it is so tragic. The the way that they just the jury, you know, God bless them. It's just normies. They're just normies, man. They're just people. They they you know what I mean? This is normal people. Yeah. Yeah. I have no understanding of Bitcoin, of, you know, blockchain forensics. They are still, for lack of a better, they're still in the matrix. They still think that, you know, the government's here to help. Why would they lie? Like, it's those people. You know what I mean? So Mhmm. To try and put to put these blockchain forensics up, and I won't go tons into the case because you guys have already covered it and all that stuff. But to try to get these just, like, regular people who, like, probably have honestly never even thought about the government maybe being an adversary. You know, it's just the government's here to help. They are that's what they do. That's their job. They're obviously, they're gonna tell the truth. So, you know, the presumption of innocence is just not reality, when it comes right down to it. And they convicted this guy using if you if you just look for a for a moment at it, like, there is forget reasonable doubt. Like, I would argue, hell, you're way past reasonable doubt, or you should be. It's so bad, the forensics, the blockchain forensics on this, that it, like, it's almost sickening.
I feel really, really bad for this dude because I genuinely think he had nothing to do with running, the Bitcoin Fog site. Like, I genuinely think that. And, you know, so the point of all that is that when they when the government is your adversary, they get to write the rules, they get to interpret the rules however they want to. Mhmm. Because that's a big part of it, is interpretation of what this rule actually means, and they get to change everything, like, on a dime. I mean, they could they could flip it overnight.
[00:31:48] Unknown:
So Mhmm. And they've got this mass of people behind them
[00:31:49] Unknown:
that are normies that, you know, they I guarantee if you went up to one of them and start talking to them about privacy, their response within the first 15 seconds would be, I'm not doing anything illegal. I don't have anything to hide. Guarantee you're gonna hear that. So that's who you're fighting. It's not only the government that you're fighting because, as you mentioned, when the government start to do things that the people, that the governed, don't like, if they do it enough that they push you too far, that's that's no bueno. Right? That's no good. We don't don't we don't wanna do that. So they have to do it in such a way that it doesn't upset the general populace. I'm telling you right now, the general populace is not going to be upset as soon as the government comes out and lays out a plan to go after these private super hackers that, you know, had do all this different stuff with Bitcoin. They're not using it like regular people. They're they're not using it like like your buddy, Mike, you know, that you see on TV all the time talking about just holding this thing and it's digital energy and it's cyber hornets. They're not doing that.
These guys are like super hackers. Let me show you what they do. And then they'll put up a Whirlpool transaction, and everybody's like, fucking, this guy's guilty. Like, it's it's it's so easy to sell that narrative. So I I just I genuinely believe people don't get it, and, I think it's gonna cost a whole lot. I just hope that it doesn't cost everything, I guess. Well, we saw it in COVID times.
[00:33:15] Unknown:
Like, you saw Yeah. Normal people Yeah. In the UK, just like normal people who were completely okay with saying things like, oh, well, if you haven't had a jab, then you shouldn't have treatment in a hospital. Cool. Like, shit like that. Like, yeah. But this guy's dying of cancer. Well, you should have a jab then. And she You're like, woah. Fuck me. Okay. You went you you very quickly turned, like, went along with this. So I've got absolutely no faith in the average man around me. Like, they'll turn into zombies in seconds, and they'll come and eat you. It's it's you can't put your trust in them. And it's kind of like governments are inefficient in many ways, and people do sort of lean into that and go, oh, government's so inefficient. You know, I've had a pothole on my road for the last 3 years that hasn't been fixed. It's like, yeah. Okay. Wait till you owe them tax. Oh, yeah. See how inefficient they are then.
All things change. You know, wait till you are on the wrong side of them because they are very, very efficient.
[00:34:14] Unknown:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they can afford not to be too. Like, the that's the the issue is as long as we're living very, very plainly in a fiat world, they are the fiat masters. So, like, they can afford to be all the inefficient they want. They can be as dumb as they want because they can do this over and over and over and over and just print more money and do it again. Print more money and do it again. Yeah. So it's like it's not like they're, you know, they have to be efficient. It's like the worst. Yeah. It doesn't matter. It's like they they just keep printing my will. Print another 6th tree and go after them again. It's like Mhmm. It's a whole different world. You know, there's levels to everything. You know what I mean? There's levels to everything. And and that's within Bitcoin, within society as a whole, as far as the people that you would say, you know, I get not get it or understand what's happening or see, like, the reality of what things are. And there's always gonna be, you know, the the levels to it. But in in Bitcoin, my, I guess, my early mistake is to go back to what we're talking about earlier. Like, I genuinely thought when I came in that anybody that was in this Bitcoin stuff or or, you know, into Bitcoin or whatever, I genuinely believe that they were smarter than, like, you're at the average normie or whatever. You know what I mean? I I genuinely believed that there was an intelligence separator, that, like, okay. Well, these people are smart enough that they get it. Like, then obviously, that puts them on a certain level. And I think that assumption has been broken for quite a while now. That may have been a decent assumption back back in the day, but Mhmm. That assumption has been broken. And, you know, it comes with that comes with a lot of issues, that we have to navigate. So it's a tough time. Yeah.
[00:35:55] Unknown:
Well, it's part of the reason, like, in my last couple of episodes, I've made little, intros and kind of subtly called out the McCormacks and people of this world who this merry-go-round of, like, with the Toreklem case in particular, it's like, okay. There's a thing that's happening, which is hitting the news. Let's get the lawyers on. Mhmm. Let's get them on, have a conversation, and go, oh, it's sad. Oh, yeah. That's sad. This would get some listens. Oh, cry a fucking river. Then let's talk about how terrible it is that there's chain surveillance companies who are preying on people and putting people behind bars.
Let's talk about how sad that is and how bad that is. Mhmm. Then let's put our hands out and take money from companies who fund said chain surveillance companies. Yeah. And round and round we go. Yeah. Oh, well, it doesn't matter. We can fund them, and then at least there'll be someone else who's arrested and is gonna potentially spend the rest of their life behind bars. And they're probably innocent. But, you know, that's cool because then it's another show and more listens. And Yeah. It's not just McCormack. It's others as well. And this is the thing. It's like, when you're talking about an intelligence test, it's like, are you fucking idiots who are listening to these shows not smart enough to see that merry-go-round?
Are you not smart enough to see how fucking disgusting and stupid this is? And if you're not, which you're not because enough people listen, then you're all gonna get wrecked. And it makes me wonder, like, how much of this is potentially social engineering? I was having this conversation with someone the other day. I was like, if I was a government, I wouldn't go and knock people's doors down for exactly what we said is bad optics. I would just insert some people in, cause some stupid drama. I'd probably put someone like Saver in and say, go go and buy a shitload of Bitcoin on our behalf. We own you. We own it. Now go and spread some narratives that are fucking retarded. Let everyone worship you. Put some other people in. Cause some rifts. Cause some rouse. And create a space where you used to have people who were thinking, and they had an adversarial mindset, and they cared about freedom, and they cared about sovereignty, and they cared about all the things that the groups that we're involved in care about. And let's just push that off course. Yeah. And that's what it feels like to me. I I don't think it's like the bar's lower and people are getting more stupid.
I actually think that there's, like, a malicious a bit like people talk about, oh, is, is China and Russia changing the way that Americans think or the western world thinks so that they, you know, they can affect the ways that society works to slowly bring them down. Yeah. Well, maybe. But if that's happening, then why wouldn't it be happening in the Bitcoin world? I would think it would happen quicker and easier, and that's how it feels. It doesn't feel I guess that's the way to describe it. It's like it doesn't feel organic. It used to feel organic, and now it doesn't. Yeah. I I I can definitely see that.
[00:39:01] Unknown:
Definitely can see that. And, you know, it's to be as fair as possible, like, it it is so easy to see all this thing all these things in hindsight. When you first come into a thing or, you know, I I'll speak for myself here. Whenever I first, like, come into a thing or or I'm first learning about something, I will readily admit, like, I don't go into that new thing that I'm learning, generally speaking, with, like, an adversarial mindset. I don't. I generally speaking, when I'm going, you know, into a new place, a new job, a new what whatever website that I've whatever. A new thing that I that I like, that I'm interested in. Like, I'm I I generally don't go in immediately, looking for, you know, the the subversive, way in. I don't immediately look for, okay, what happens if this is if it's, you know, an adversary. Like, that's just not how I do it. I just assume things are right, and then once you're in, then that's when you start, like, looking looking at your surroundings. I think Mhmm. I think people, especially with Bitcoin, because it's so, like, big. Like, the the concept, this whole thing is so big.
Like, it's very difficult to to, like, you know, master Bitcoin as it were, because there's so many parts of it. There's so much, you know, not even getting into the social, but, like, the game theory. Like, the whole thing is just massive. It's such a mind fuck that it's very easy to come into it and just spend years in la la land just amazed that this thing even works. Look at this. Nobody's even running it. Like, oh, it it just it just keeps going, and then it cuts in half. And then, oh my, this is just amazing. Oh, it's better. You know what I mean? And you can spend years like that. Like, oh my god. And just this, like, this this orange glow around you because you found this thing that's so interesting, and it's so cool, and it's so neat. And before you know it, you've spent years in this thing, and you've given up all your information to your adversary. You've done all this stuff that, you know, can now it's permanent. It's the blockchain's there. It's not going away, and it's and they can go back, you know, look at, Roman. You know, this is what? 2011? They went back to 2011 transactions. 2011, 2013, I think. We're talking over a decade ago. And somebody comes in and now and tries to ask you about a transaction that you made a decade ago. What are you supposed to tell? I don't fucking know. You know, you I don't still have that wallet. I've I've made 17 wallets since then. What are you talking about? You know? And it's like, well, no. Here here it is. We got you. So to be as fair as possible, like, I I I get it to to a degree. I get it. I understand how you could come in and not see see it. I understand how you could come in and be taken in by a McCormack, you know, by that crowd. Like, I I I I truly do understand how that happens. I don't have a problem with that. So the point then is how do we get this other message even in front of those people? Because even on, like, bitcoin Twitter, and and certain it it's really weird. It's a really weird thing. Like in certain, like, very niche parts of bitcoin Twitter, It's like I'll meet somebody and they'll be like, oh my god. It's diverter. Oh my god. That's you. You know what I mean? Like, oh my god. And then, like, the entire rest of Bitcoin Twitter's like, who the fuck is this guy? You know what I mean? It's like so it's like Bitcoin even even just Bitcoin Twitter, Not even the whole thing as a whole. Just that little niche aspect is so divided and car compartmentalized.
So it really truly is an echo chain, and that's what they want. That's what the algorithm continues to feed you more stuff like that. So it becomes harder and harder to get this other message, even in front of those people that have been taken in. And now they've spent years believing this thing and believing this thing works this way, and this is how it's supposed to be. And this is totally fine. This has changed surveillance because they're going after bad guys and all this stuff, and it becomes harder and harder to break out of it. So Yeah. You know what I mean? I get it. I I really do. I just I don't know what the solution is, really. Well, I think it's like
[00:43:02] Unknown:
what I'm trying to do is just consistent messaging. Yeah. It's like Yeah. Being very consistent on Bitcoin isn't actually complicated for the end user. Like, it's fucking complicated. It's amazing what it does and how it's built and, yeah, you could lose the rest of your life just studying it and all the rest of it. But, actually, as a user, if you're like, no. I get it. I kind of I wanna use this thing. It's not that hard. And so my messaging is like, okay. Choose one wallet for your phone and one wallet for your laptop, and I'm pretty consistent on that. It's like you, samurai, very, very good. You, Sparrow Mhmm. It's very good. Once you've done that, you can think about setting up a node and, you know, that's not the hardest thing. Here's how to do it. Yeah. Make sure that you don't leak your IP when you're doing it. And outside of that, and if you wanna use the hardware, I know loads of people are like, you don't need hardware. I still like to use it. But Mhmm. You know, depending on if you got your life savings in it or whether it's a few $100, that also depends. But, like, use open source stuff, and it's not really that fucking difficult. Like, it's No. If you wanna get set up, you can do it in a weekend.
Even me, I can do it in a weekend. I can be like, okay. I'll set these things up. And then, like, simple stuff, like worry about your labeling. Worry about labeling your UTXOs and having a a a backup so that you know that you're not shooting yourself in the foot when you don't need to. Just simple stuff like that. And what frustrates me is people would rather listen to the 500th episode of, like you said, like, cyber hornet fucking energy shit, and we're going to 10,000,000,000 because of this ETF inflow stat that we've got and blah blah. And it's like they get the lube out and have a wank about how excited they are and how fucking smart they are and how they're gonna be rich. It's like, okay. Could you just at least spend one fucking weekend not doing that? And just once, just put your shit in order. And that's kind of the message I'm trying to get out. It's very frustrating. Yeah. It's very frustrating. I I will say, like, as you were talking about earlier, the difference between talking to people online and talking to people, you know, in real life. I I will say,
[00:45:18] Unknown:
you know, I've done a few conferences now. And now this year, I've like I said, I started to make, like, a conscious effort. I'm actually gonna start going to meetups that are close ish around me. So I can, you know, I wanna build my in real life network as, you know, strong as what I feel like my online network is. Because my online network, I'll put up against anybody's online network. Like, I am so so secure in my online, like, community. Like, I'll put it up against literally anybody. I don't these are people that I legitimately call friends, and I I promise you, I don't throw that word around lightly. Like, these are legitimately my friends, and some of them I've never met. Don't know their name. I don't know what the hell they look like. Nothing about them. Legitimate friend. So I'm good there. Like, I feel good about that. But, you know, when it comes down to, like, in real life, I don't talk about this stuff with hardly anybody. You know, you do the little family thing, or I don't know how most people is what mine is, you know, the just the whole little family thing. You know, you get together on Thanksgiving. It's you know, you feel like the guy coming down from the attic. You know what I mean? Oh, tell us about your Yeah. Tell us about your bitcoins. Are you still doing the bitcoins thing? And it's like, Jesus Christ.
You know? So, like, I I wanna try to have some people that, you know, I I know in life. And not only that, but, you know, I finally, this year, was able to if I if you know this or not, but I was able this year to abandon my entire career that I've worked my ass off to build and decide instead I see this. To, yeah, to go full time on, on Bitcoin. So I'm paid in Bitcoin now fully. Like, I Brilliant. Fully fully living off Bitcoin. Nothing else. So it's like, okay. Now I actually need some people, like, in my life that I could say, hey. I need to pay rent. I need to do whatever. Like, hey. You wanna buy some Bitcoin? So, you know, it's a it's a mutual thing, you know. So anyway, all that to say, so every time that I've done these in person things, whether it's a conference, meet up, whatever, people are genuinely engaged, like, genuinely engaged when you start talking about this stuff. And, you know, I think a lot of the reason is because they've probably never heard it before, probably never even thought about it. I walked into a meetup and started talking about samurai wallet. One person there had ever even heard about samurai wallet. Alright. It did I didn't start talking about samurai. I actually started talking about taint as a as a concept in the way taint works. Had no idea what I was talking about. Alright? One guy that knew about this, and one guy that had even heard these these things at all. Everybody else, and there was, like, 15 other people there at this meetup. Everybody else was glued to glued to their seat, and it was like they were they were in it. So it's not that, like, the message doesn't resonate with people or it's not interesting. It's it's it's none of those things. Like, we have, for lack of a better term, we've got a good product that we're selling, you know, as as much as, like, privacy and the whole freedom thing. Like, it's it's a great product to sell, but the message itself just generally is less appealing, than what other people are doing.
So Yeah. That's the fight. And in real life, every time I've talked to people, they're they're all in about it. They genuinely, like, follow-up on stuff. They wanna know about it. They're they're they're into it. So, you know, it's just, to me, doing things like you're doing, because there's very few of these shows. But doing shows like you do, where you consistently hammer out the same message, you you you get it out. Eventually, this lands in those people's laps eventually, and it's a it's a trickle. You know, I think that's the difference in the 2, like, communities. The the, you know, number go up community, it gets flooded. It's a flood when the number starts to go up. But the privacy and freedom aspect stuff, it's always gonna be a triple. And that's, you know, it's it's frustrating to deal with. Are you now that you're earning in Bitcoin, are you in our mesh to adult group? I don't on Telegram, I don't know if I am or not. I don't think so, actually.
[00:49:17] Unknown:
I'm gonna send you an invite. Yeah. Send me send me one. Because that sounds like because so many people in there, it's all just like a group of people who are either regenerative agriculture or they're selling products or, they'll exchange in there. So for people who are actually living on Bitcoin
[00:49:37] Unknown:
and actually using it, It's really good. You know, you wanna buy lamb or beef or you wanna buy honey or you wanna buy maple syrup. You wanna whatever it is. There's someone in there, and it's more more centered in America, but we've got some really good people in there. I'll Yeah. Put your link. For sure. Yeah. That's I mean, that's that's kinda where I'm at with it now is, like, you know, I spent I've gone on quite a little journey in Bitcoin as as we all do. You know, I came in, bought this thing on Coinbase. I had no idea what it I thought it was just like a stock or something. There's absolutely zero understanding. You know, it's 2016. No idea what this shit is, but it's, like, 600, $700 when I start buying it, and then it starts going up. You know what I mean? Things like 12, $1300 for sale. Like, I'm a genius. You know what I mean? It doubled my money. And then I watched it run all the way up, realized I was missing something, and that's that's when I started digging in. And then I went through, you know, my journey of, okay. I'm learning this stuff now. I want other people to learn this stuff. So I started writing blogs, started doing this thing, then I started getting to know people. Then I ended up getting lucky enough to have, you know, being offered a job working in Bitcoin. And now I feel like my next, like, leg of my journey, is like the in real life thing. So I want to get, you know what I mean, a a a network in, like, meet space of people that I could talk with, that I can, you know, count on when you need something. Like, it's it's I've got family. Don't get me wrong. But it's a diff there's a difference in family and friends. And Yeah. It's it's you know, once you've kind of, like, woken up to all this bullshit that's going on, it makes it for me anyway, it makes it more difficult to to to, like, make friends and and, you know, socialize with people outside, you know, just in general.
I found that to be the case for myself anyway because, you know, I've got this whole thing going on in my mind. You know what I mean? And now I'm seeing, like, all these other angles, and I'm looking at all this different shit, and everything's being processed. And I look over at them, and they're just like like they're, you know what's the guy say? Like they're in an in your video. You know what I mean? Just walking around. And he's like yeah. This was smack him. Wake the fuck up. What's wrong with you? So, you know, yeah. I I think that's where I'm at in my next leg of my journey. So we'll see how it takes me. Yeah.
[00:51:51] Unknown:
I think we're in a similar place. It's hard to make friends with people who are it's like that meme standing by the barbecue is like, hey. Did you catch the game last night? Like, whatever you say about, like, crazy shit, and that's all they have to say. Like, fuck this. This is not the conversation I can have. Oh. But, yeah, there's loads of I mean, there's loads of people who are who are thinking in the same way as we are, and that's kind of what the mesh is about. It's bringing these people together, a mesh network of people who can help each other out in, all different ways. So that's been growing quite nicely, and it's been good as well. You've been putting some writing out. I was reading through your op return one the other day, which we put on ungovernable misfits.
So it's good just seeing some real, important articles going out because I don't think I don't know. Like, the the 3 main ones you know, we're talking earlier about what's the topics that are being discussed on Bitcoin Twitter and a lot of the, like, stupid stuff that makes you just be like, oh, fuck. I just wanna turn this thing off. Yeah. Yeah. Like, some of the ones for me is, at the moment, all this mining censorship and people, like, getting excited about ocean bro. Is pissing me off. It's just like, shut the fuck up. And then this, you know, mass adoption, but we can only have one UTXO per person, and that's a problem. It's like, do you know how far away we are from this shit? Like, do you have any idea how far away? Like, all these all these little things Dude. Are conversations that I just don't think, like, people are going into enough depth. So when you write something like your article on, you know, the old return stuff, it's like, okay. Cool. This is a way that someone can can break it down and be like, okay. I'm not just listening and going on ocean because fucking Jack Dorsey is involved, and I think he's cool. I actually now know what I'm talking about, and maybe, I don't know, maybe censorship
[00:53:45] Unknown:
isn't great. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's and, you know, you were talking earlier about this, like, social and engineering aspect, and I, you know, I couldn't agree more. And it's it really, to me, like, shows through in those topics in particular. Because, man, I I really don't think people understand the Pandora's box that has been opened with this. Like, sure, it's it's like, a lot of this stuff could have always been done. Like, it's there's but that's the case with lots of stuff throughout time. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you could've always we could've invented the wheel forever. You know what I mean? Just nobody did it. Well yeah. Exactly. Like, you could have been doing all this stuff with mining, you know, and censorship and and all this stuff, like, for a long time, but, like, nobody did it. So it wasn't being thought about, talked about, anything. And now, you know, with this implementation and what Ocean is doing, it's opened a box that can't be closed now. And, you know, it's it's gonna serve to just further fracture, NIM pools everywhere. So, you know, I don't know if fee estimation in your wallet. I you know, I don't know what wallets people are using, but I I promise you, like, there's a very, very good chance that whatever wallet you're using, the fee estimation in it is absolute dog shit. And that's because it's probably your best stop pulling from, like, Bitcoin d and stuff. Like, it's that now we've got these transactions and actual public facing services where people can purposefully just bypass that mempool completely and go straight to the mining. Are you using Nextblock fee of estimation now?
Yes. Yes. And, you know, that's so Samurai is as per, usual, like, as far as I'm concerned anyway, just ahead of everybody else on on this stuff. Like, they they think about things that their users have issues with, and they, like, actually act on it before, a lot of other actually use Bitcoin. Yeah. And I think I think that's a big part of it. I really do. Because, like, a a lot of people don't even understand that it's an issue or don't even care about it. Like, nobody's nobody's talking about fee estimation or wasn't anyway. But, you know, try Samura was already doing it a little differently than everybody else. It it was, you know, wouldn't, it would not allow you to pay, you know, a too high of a fee. Like, there's there was always a ceiling, in samurai. Even using, like, Bitcoin d or a rolling average or whatever, there was always still a ceiling where it just wouldn't let you pay too high. And, you know, people that have been using it for a while seen some fee spikes, like, a lot of these fee spikes are very avoidable. It's just because people are using wallets that are absolute dog shit with their fee estimation. And because of that, then you start getting that's you you get these fee spikes. I mean, that's not the entire reason, but it can it's a big contributing factor. So, you know, yeah, samurai and then, next block dot is, you know, it's it's the it's actually looking at the current transactions in the current mempool, like, what's actually in the mempool now of your node. And it's looking at those and then giving you a fee estimate, pay and and a percentage of what is the chance that you use this fee. What's the chance that you'll be get into the next block? So, like, next block is a 99% chance that you'll get in, and then, like, you've got, like, a medium or a normal, which is like a 50% chance you'll get in, and then you've got a low, which is like a 10% chance you'll get in. But, you know, a lot of people don't understand how, like, the fee estimation is working, what's what's your wallet if you're not using, you know, like, something with, like, Nextblock. IaaS. What your wallet's doing is looking at already confirmed blocks, and then it's making a fee estimation based off of blocks that have already been confirmed, not based off of what transactions are actively in the mempool. So, you know, it's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things that, again, people don't really it doesn't really register, and you don't you don't think ahead, but just that little thing is it's a big, big deal. It's a weird one as well. Like, I've tried to have the conversation with a few people who are
[00:57:43] Unknown:
on the side of censorship is good because ordinals are not good. Yeah. Yeah. And I've never really, like, got to the bottom of where what they're thinking because I've always said to people, like, okay. Let's say that it's you think it's a massive issue that the fees are going up. Do you not think it's an issue if the fees don't go up in the future for minors? And they're like, oh, yeah. Well, that would be an issue. It's like, so okay. So it's not really an issue that the fees are going up necessarily. Your issue is the the cost for you to send a transaction, if you are sending a transaction, could be higher even though it's not really that high still, but it could be higher. And they're like, yeah. Pretty much. I'm like, okay.
Well, could you not run a miner to offset that cost? Have you thought about that? Like, have you thought about just maybe setting your fee lower and just waiting? I never pay high fees. I'm generally in single digits even when the fees are running. Like, how how often do you need to send one urgently? And it seems like they don't really have answers for it. I think what is happening is they are just following along with what sounds cool and the fact that something is, not technically Bitcoin or it's like a transaction that they don't see as Bitcoin, then it isn't right. And they almost see it as, like, a shit coin, and then they wanna attack it because that's the cool thing to do. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's part of, like, the in crowd thing to do. So I just don't think people are thinking through, like, a, what it means or where it can go, or b, like, there's ways around it. Like, when the fees are high, I'm I'm looking and I'm going, oh, I'm running some miners. Okay. I'm getting some more fees. Very nice.
Like, so what? So I've gotta so now I've gotta send a transaction. And if I really desperately want it to go through, well, okay, then it just offsets against what I'm earning. I don't give a fuck.
[00:59:31] Unknown:
Got it. So it's a hedge. You got the the transaction fee hedge. Yeah. My, I think my biggest, issue or at least one of the biggest issues I have with the whole I'll just call it the ordinal thing, but everything that it encompasses is what really, really gets to me is that it has been made into a moral issue. It is now a morality issue, for so many people. It's fucking annoying. And that really, really, really gets to me. Like, this is not some, like, morality test of, you know, well, if you're using Bitcoin in a moral way, which is to say what? What does that mean exactly? That I can only send a a a a one input, 2 output transaction?
Because that's the thing that I'm I'm getting more recently is I don't see how it's an exact quote, I think, or really close to exact quote. I don't see how it can be controversial to say that everybody should use the block chain in the most efficient way possible. Well, I do. I see how they can be controversial because if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion, then what you're left with is only using, like, 1 input in, 2 output out, single spin transactions. That means, you know, on an open transparent blockchain, you're not gonna be able to introduce any extra inputs or outputs to the transaction in order to try to, you know, muddy the waters of change surveillance. Like, everything has to be a 100% deterministic spend.
Like, it's it's very easy to follow this. So whenever it's been turned now to where, you know, it's it's, again, it's a morality issue. It's it's something where you're either a good person because you're using Bitcoin the way that it should be used. That way, we can look out for all the all the children of the world. You know, won't somebody think of the children as opposed to it's it's always the won't somebody think of the children crowd. I swear to god. And it's always those people that won't you think of the children out in whatever, out in Africa, they'll say that as a child, like, literally lies starving at their foot in front of them. A you know, like, it's every single time. Mhmm. But Bitcoin functions as well as it does because the incentives are aligned such that every person acting in their best interest is what is in the best interest of the network as a result. That's why it works that as well as it does. That's why it's, you know, quote unquote money for enemies, as is said so often, but people I don't really think get what that means. If you do what is in your best interest, that is in turn also in the best interest of the network. That's how proper incentives align. If you do something that, you know, for, like, the greater good, as you might think, that that's that's you're essentially, like, trying to rely too heavily on, you know, altruistic tendencies or people that just want to do stuff for the better of the world. You can't that's not tenable. That's not sustainable. You can't continue to do that. People have to see, like, tangible benefits, you know, from something. There has to be a tangible benefit to them, to that person for, like, a a robust system like Bitcoin to sustain, in my opinion. So the whole morality thing being introduced and, you know, you're you're ruining Bitcoin for the future of the children and all this stuff, like, as soon as you start down that path, you have 100% lost me, and I would not hear anything you have to say on the subject any longer. I'm just telling you. That's not More honestly doesn't pay the bills. Yeah. It's not the way you're gonna win me over. I promise it's not. Yeah. Morality doesn't pay the bills. It's like you're a miner.
[01:03:11] Unknown:
You're paying your energy bill. There's transactions coming through with fees on them. If you are logical, you'd go, thank you very much. I'll have those. And I think that's kind of the way that it eventually goes. Like, anyone that I've spoken to who minds in a serious way just isn't taking this stuff seriously. They're like, it's fucking stupid, and the incentives are aligned in that way that that works. So I don't know. I I kind of see this going away as just you know, it's it's everywhere. And my my concern is not the minors who are gonna switch over and go, oh, yes, please. I'm gonna earn less money. Like, I don't see that happening.
No. But it's more like that it's changing the way that people talk about on what they believe to be acceptable. Like Exact swear to god, like, 2 years ago, if someone had said, hey. Should we, like, filter stuff on Bitcoin? Like, people would be like, shut the fuck up. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, it's retard. Dude,
[01:04:07] Unknown:
look at the reaction when this originally, or I don't know if you say originally, but years ago when, you know, when Luke in his custom fork, when he inserted the blacklist and didn't tell anybody, and it just, like, sneakily got inserted to this thing. There was an uproar. Paper. Oh, blah blah blah blah blah. You know? And and people and there was you know, he was censoring or or put on the blacklist, like, it was like Satoshi Dice, like, gambling sites, stuff like that, like, Satoshi Dice and stuff like that. And he was just, you know, so it didn't snow, but would blacklist him. Uproar, people weren't going for it. I think the so couple things. Number 1, I see this argument like everyone. Maybe it's just my feet. I don't know. But it's all over. It's like it's so loud about running knots in particular. All these node implementations are starting to put it into where you can run knots in the node and, like, start 9 and Umbrel and, sit at the all these things are, like, putting in. You can run knots. You can run knots. You can run knots. Meanwhile, there's one single implementation that is explicitly banning it. But anyway so so, and we I I would like to just say it, Luis, send us on that here in a second. But here's my point. So to me, like like, it's everywhere. And whenever that a topic is so large like that and you like, it's it's it's almost like it's ubiquitous. You could see it everywhere. But you're not seeing, like, any actual action behind that. It doesn't move people to do the thing. And what I mean by that is if you look at, like, how many reachable knots nodes there are on something like like a bitnodes.io, you know, you can go in, you can search for node tags, and you can see, like, how many of these reachable nodes are there on the network. And there there don't get me wrong. There are certainly more knots nodes on the network now than there were before this thing started because nobody was running it hardly. So there are more, but there's still it's like it's broke a little over 300 now. It's like it's still trailing well behind, just dojo. That like, just Ronin or samurai dojo. It's still trailing well behind that. And so the fact that, like, it feels so loud, this whole argument is so loud, and everybody's opinion on it is so everywhere, but we're I'm not really seeing, like, the tangible result of that. To me, that is an indication that it doesn't really have legs. People really aren't into it. Mhmm. But the problem is what you mentioned. It shifts the conversation.
It shifts the the Overton window of censorship basically on Bitcoin, and what is okay and what is not okay. And that shift is way more important than how many knots nodes are on the network. That's that's an irrelevant, like, you know, metric in the in the scheme of things. But what we consider acceptable as far as, you know, restricting the things that people can do with their own money. That's a big, big thing. So I think you're a 100% right. Like, the social aspect of this is what is is important. And so, you know, it's really, honestly, like, I've had more, I guess, back and forth maybe about this than anything lately because I don't really I've already had the conversations about everything else. But this is important to make sure that people really understand what they're what they're advocating for and what there's what the, you know, the the avenue, the door that they're opening. Like, it's this is a big problem if you can't see what this leads to inevitably down the road. So yeah. But and just real quick on the because I see this everywhere, and I know people have probably pointed it out, but I just it's so it just drives me crazy.
If you if you are a node operator, if you're running a node. Right? And so when you send a Bitcoin transaction, it it is broadcast from your node. Your node connects to a bunch of other nodes that are called peers, who then broadcast it out into the net. Like, this is how your transaction gets out, broadcast it from your node. If your node is connected to a bunch of peers that are running a node implementation that explicitly refuses to relay some transactions that you do in your wallet. That is ridiculously dumb. And your transaction is not gonna go anywhere. So of course, you have to block those peers so that your transaction could be broadcast to the network. Like, the fact that we that right there still I see come up is like, holy shit, bro. How do you not get this? But they use that they use that, you know what I mean, as like a way to say, oh, well, see, now look.
Yes, samurai's doing censorship, see, everybody, oh, it's okay when you do it. That's not the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's very, very aggravating because that's that's part of the social thing to me is, you know, I hate the whole spook thing. You know what I mean? It's a spook because everybody's a spook. Everybody's a spook. But the reality is there are definitely, like, legitimate spooks. And they saw this discord, and it's easy for some people to to grab on to, you know, to, like, grab a hold of because, again, they're the type of people that don't really like to dig and get to the root of a thing. They just see something that they like, and they go with it. And, you know, the people in, like, the general samurai wallet community are just fucking assholes.
There's a lot of assholes. You know, there's a lot of assholes. Like, the the asshole to, like, normie ratio is just off the freakin' charts. But there's a good reason behind it. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, a lot of it is just like if I can sow just a little bit of discord, then these guys, are like, they're gonna just run they're gonna hate this whole crew. And so everything then that is talked about or discussed or anything that happens to that particular group of people is actually fine because fuck those people. So, you know, if this, I'm curious. Like, it it makes me wonder, you know, if somebody like a BlueWallet or a, whatever, so whoever else, whatever wallet you like, was the one that was gonna have their transaction not be broadcast because we're running this note. I wonder how that changes the conversation. I wonder how much of it was like, yeah. Absolutely. Let's go because
[01:10:07] Unknown:
fuck these dudes. Fucking scam right anyway. Mhmm. You know what I mean? Like, it really Probably a lot. Yeah. I I'm curious. I would say probably a lot. And and and also, like, how many people are actually using PayNIMs and how many people are actually doing this kind of stuff. Like, it's it's such a small percentage. People don't even probably know what the fuck it is. A 100%. So they're like, yeah. It doesn't affect me. So whatever. And Yes. Like you say, like, fuck those guys. They were mean. They called me, they called me a retard or something like that. And it's like, because you are. You're right. Yeah. They did call you a they did call you a retard. So so I do think, yeah, it's it's easy to, like, these people wanna be in the in group and wanna be liked and wanna go up on stages and wanna go on sailors and all this type of stuff. You know? So they're they're gonna go against people who are mean to those people, so it's kind of easy to socially engineer them. Yeah. All of that in mind, are there any tools or things that you are using and recommending outside of, like, the things that we've discussed, outside of, like, fee estimators and the wallets that we've discussed. Is there anything that you're thinking about to protect yourself that you that you're willing to talk about? I know there's probably stuff you're not, but No. It's totally fine. Any sort of advice? I tell you, it's kind of,
[01:11:21] Unknown:
kind of almost went in reverse a little bit maybe in some ways. Something that I I I used to, like, really use and be into, then I kinda got away from it a little bit. And now I'm really getting back into and really starting to to use is, PGP on on a lot of my stuff. You know, I I I got away from using PGP because, no, you there are a lot of products out these days that, you know, offer encryption, end to end encryption and things that, you know, they they automatically decrypt all this stuff for you. Like, there's they're making it very easy in a lot of these cases to be able to actually use encryption. And I'm not saying the encryption doesn't work. The encryption probably is is fine. But, you know, using a a third party as we are you know, obviously, it's security hole. But when you're using something and you're trusting them to encrypt it for you, you know, for the sake of some convenience, it's it's, you know, it's a recipe for disaster. And I I kind of got away from it from a little for a little bit, but it feels like we're starting to get back into that time where shit's gonna start getting a little wicked. You know, you had the the thing with the Tornado Cash Devs, and then you had this thing with with Roman Sterlingoff. And then, you know, we had this letter that Samura wallet came out and was like the head of the letter. You know, a lot of other companies signed on to it, you know, 1031 and all that, but sent this, this this letter about these regulations off. And, you know, like, yes, it's a letter and a lot of other people sent letters and all that stuff, but, like, how many of those other people are offering the type of services that Samura Wallet, like, offers? Mhmm. You know what I mean? Like, the some of the people that signed on to that letter and I'm I'm not knocking them. Don't get me wrong. But some of the people that signed on to that letter, like, they're not a threat. They're not doing anything subversive in the least. You know, it there's a KYC exchange that collects all your information and sends it to this government. You know? Again, kudos to them for signing a letter and standing up and saying, hey. This is wrong. But let's be real. Like, you're you know? They're they don't give a shit about you. But now, Samura World They're not in the firing line. Yeah. Now, Samara wallet on the other hand, like, the whole goal of and the whole thing that the wallet does is give you, you know, transactional privacy. It's the whole idea.
And so that's an easy target. And now they hear they've had mine signed this letter. Boom. Right? All these other people, they already hate them. So it's like, to me, it just feels like we're entering a time where I could very easily see it starting to get a little choppy. And when I start feeling that way, which is a it's bad. I should do it all the time. But especially when I start feeling this way, I really start getting back to PGPN all my shit that, like, e even closely matters quote unquote. So it's an old tech. It's a very old tech. You know what I mean? It's something that Yeah. A lot of people hate using myself included. But it is doable. And I I really, really, really highly advise people to use PGP, you know, especially if you've got, like, an Android device. You can use OpenKeychain. It makes it really, really easy to do, and you can, you know, you can really protect yourself a lot by using that. Because otherwise, especially with this FISA thing that they just did, like, I don't I don't even know exactly what all like, down to the details. I'm only reading summations of other what other people who have read the bill have have, said. And from what I'm gathering, it's it's basically a rubber stamp for these and these companies are gonna be essentially forced to hand over information without having to seek a warrant on US citizens, and this is, you know, from, like, companies, from providers. So telecom communicators. So all these people anything any bit of your encryption, or, communication that's not encrypted, that's done off the top. And then even when you get into some of the services that maybe are encrypted, you know, some of these services are untested. I don't know how they're gonna act, what they're gonna do when they really, like, come for them. You know what I mean? Signal, I would say we we do have a result on signal. It's been some years now. My people talk shit about signal all the time, but I'm I'm a big signal fan.
We saw what happened in a court case with them. It's been years ago again.
[01:15:26] Unknown:
Signal's pretty good. Yeah. But but, like, PGP, completely agree with you. It's Yeah. Very smart to be using that. But on the other hand, it's fucking horrible to use. It's It's such a hard way. Keychain. I've used Cleopatra, for desktop, and it's doable. But every time I do it because, you know, I do it for, like, certain things where I'm like, this is sensitive. I'll Right. You know? This is a dick pic going across to q and a. Like, let's let's make sure. Right. Right. You know, I'll make sure that that's going over PGP. But it's like, every time I do it, I go, how the fuck do I do this again? Yeah. What am I what am I doing?
[01:16:03] Unknown:
What do what do I post here? What do I and it's it's just, like, so unintuitive.
[01:16:09] Unknown:
It's such it's such a bot, like yeah. It's exactly why it hasn't I just wonder is there not a way? What? Is there not a way to this?
[01:16:16] Unknown:
It's one of those tools where, like, if you don't if you don't need the tool, then it is completely, like, in your way. What the fuck is this thing? But then when you need that tool, it's like there is no substitute. I have to have this tool. And so it's like you know what I mean? And but because there are again, as you said, there's, like, there's not a ton of times where you're gonna be consistently saying all these or or doing all these things that had to be locally PGP encrypted and decrypted. Like, it generally speaking, you don't have to go through all that all the time. But, like, whenever you're keeping files, you know, maybe maybe some tech text documents and and notes that you've taken from a meeting that you don't wanna talk about, and, like, all these things that, you know, we just leave probably sitting on our desktop or in a text editor or whatever just sitting in our files. Like, they're just sitting there. And, you know, so I I've I've really started getting back into making sure that everything that sits on my computers is is locally encrypted, and I make sure everything everything is the way that it should be. And I am far from, like, a target or, like, the biggest target or anything like that. But this is it's my freaking life. That's on the line. You know what I mean? So it's like, I've gotta protect myself in whatever way I can. But to be honest with you, like, so much work that I've I've just been working so much lately that I really I don't have much time to, to play with new things. And and I kinda regret that a little. I mean, like, I I want to. I like it, you know, playing with new tools and stuff like that, but you know how it is. You get into working and you're you're trying to do this thing and fix this thing, and then next thing you know you know what I mean? And you're just kinda continue using the thing that you always used. So I rely on shows like this, to be honest with you, to, like, put me on to new and interesting things. That's one of the the things that I do like about podcast such as yours that actually talk about shit that that matters is that's why that's what I listen for. Like, I I I like to guess. I like the interviews. I like the point of views, but then also, I really like get put up on things that I didn't know about new text, new apps, new protocols, whatever. So, you know, I kinda leave that one up to you.
[01:18:29] Unknown:
Well, it's interesting you said PGP because that's kind of the the new path I'm going down, like, personally, and a few people will be helping with this, like, learning how to properly use encryption. And I will be doing some more shows and and bits around how to do it. Because I was having this conversation the other day with someone. I was saying, okay. You know, you're going through all your labeling, and that's very sensitive information, all your storage of all your information on your wallets. And then you wanna do a backup because if you lose all of that, you're in a really bad place because that's happened to me before, and it took me oh, it's taken me literally weeks to try and, like, do my own chain surveillance to try and work out where the fuck I sent something and who to and when and relabel. It's taken weeks weeks. So now I've got it, and I'm like, okay. I'm gonna do some backups. Alright? So I'm gonna do, like and I have one on a separate laptop, and then I have, like, a couple of extra USBs. And then I'm like, hang on. What if someone got ahold of these USBs?
Right. What if they could then so then it's like, well, what do you do? Okay. Encryption. So then I'm speaking to Rabin. I'm like, what do I do to encrypt these? And he's like, well, you can use a stick, which you type in a code into. I'm like, is it open source? He's like, no. It's not open source. I'm like, no. I don't really like the idea of that. Okay. What else can I do? You can do this Verocrypt thing. And I'm like, what the fuck is Veracrypt? And he's like, I could probably teach it to you. And I'm like, can you teach it to me, though? And he's like, yeah. But you just like, we need some time, and, like, I'll go through it with you and just make some notes. And so that's the kind of thing I'd like to actually do a show on where I'm like, I don't think I'm alone in when someone like Rabbit says to me, oh, yeah. Just use Verocrypt. I'm like, okay.
This is you. Yeah. Now bring it to to my level, and let's make sure that when I have my wallet labels that I've backed up, that I really need, if I need that backup, that I can actually get into it and I haven't myself out of the ability to fucking view them. A 100%.
[01:20:31] Unknown:
A 100%. Yes. That's again, that's one of the big reasons I I still listen to podcast like this, especially if I see it on a topic that I'm like, oh, what is that? But, yes, there are so many people that do not understand, especially, like, local encryption, whether it's PGP or VeriCrypt or Lux or whatever. Like, people really don't get it. And so and that's totally understandable. It's not not a knot, but, yeah, I think that would be a I think that would be an excellent episode. Just something on Lux and Veracrypt, like, just general local encryption files and USBs and stuff like that. That's that's a big win for people because it's, again, one of those things where, you know, it's very easy to start. I don't know about anybody else but me. It's very easy for me to, like, start off gung ho. You know what I mean? I start off and I'm like, okay. Boom. Everything's encrypted. Uh-uh. You'll never get you know what I mean? And then like and then like, I had to access it 4 or 5 times, and I'm like, okay. Well, it's half encrypted. And then by the by the end, it's just a USB laying on my, you know, coffee table. And it's just like, fuck me, man. Why did I I I got away from my security practices. It's it's a human thing. It's like something that we do. It's why, you know, user experiences is important. It's not the end all, be all, but it is important that people are actually able to use the freaking tool fairly easily. So, yeah, I think that I think you you would really hit on something that a lot of people are interested in there with, with that. But otherwise, man, you know, it's just it's it's nose to the grindstone right now. Just, trying to get, trying to get a lot of work done. Is it, public knowledge what you're doing? Or I I mean, I don't think it's public public knowledge, but, like, I think people are probably pretty fairly intelligent enough to figure it to figure it out.
Okay. But, I believe it there. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
[01:22:17] Unknown:
Alright, mate. Well, it's been really good having you on again. It's honestly been months since I've just had, like, a conversation on this podcast. It's just been the monthly shows for for the reasons I talked to you about. Just not wanting to have a conversation with all the cons out there, but this has been refreshing. And definitely, definitely do it again soon, and it's kind of given me a bit of a fire of, like, okay. You need to cover some topics. There are good people still here. And, yeah, it's been great. That's, you're you've hit on exactly how I feel. Like, when I go when I went to that conference in Dallas, for example, it's
[01:22:55] Unknown:
and I got to see some some of my people, and I got to hang out with some of my boys, and it's like coming out of there. I'm like, man, I'm I'm reinvigorated. And everybody, we all need that from time to time. You know, whether that's being able to just talk to somebody or you or you see something that you just get you back into it, everybody strays. So especially in this stuff, it's so easily to get, like, discouraged, and be down, and feel overwhelmed, and outmatched, and outgunned, and it's just like, dude. And so it really it it means a lot that, you can find somebody and just have some good conversations and re reinvigorate some topics, get the old brain working again. That's what this is all about. That's why I'm going to these meetups. You know what I mean? Like, it's a big part of why I'm doing all the things that I do. I don't wanna allow myself to get so burnt and and just, like, jaded and black peeled on this whole privacy thing that I just throw my hands up because I've seen it happen a lot of times.
[01:23:51] Unknown:
Yeah. A 100%. We won't give in. We won't give up. That's right. I had some burnout, but I'm getting back to it now. So That's right. Yeah, mate. Thanks for coming on, and we'll do it again soon. Yeah. Thanks for all you do in the space. And for anyone who hasn't already read the article yet that you've posted on Ungovernable Misfits, I'll put a link in the show notes. And, yeah. Cool. Hopefully, we do this again soon. Yeah. For sure, man. Anytime. Love it. Alright, mate. Take care. Alright. You too. Thanks for listening. I really hope you enjoyed that. If you did enjoy it, consider sharing it with friends and family.
And if you haven't checked out Ungovernable Misfits dotcom, go and do it now. Mister Crown puts a lot of work into this. It's fucking beautiful. Ungovernable misfits dot com.
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