Ungovernable Misfits

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WHAT'S THIS SHOW ALL ABOUT?

Bitcoin monthly is a show hosted by Max, Bitcoin QnA and Antomous Brother Rabbit. We cover important updates in the world of bitcoin and open source software. It is our imperative to provide some education along the way too, so that the misfits can expand their knowledge base and become more sovereign as a result.

We do this monthly to keep listeners informed without having to dedicate hours every day to keep on top of developments. We break things down in a simple and fun way and we welcome questions or topic suggestions via Podcasting 2.0 boosts.


Thanks for listening you Ungovernable Misfits, we appreciate your continued support and hope you enjoy the shows.

You can support this episode using your time, talent or treasure.

TIME:

- create fountain clips for the show
- create a meetup
- help boost the signal on social media

TALENT:

- create ungovernable misfit inspired art, animation or music
- design or implement some software that can make the podcast better
- use whatever talents you have to make a contribution to the show!

TREASURE:

- BOOST IT on the Podcasting 2.0 apps (https://podcastapps.com)
- STREAM SATS
- DONATE via Paynym @ https://paynym.is/+maxbuybit
- BUY SOME CLOTHING @ https://ungovernablemisfits.com/store/


NEWS

• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/tornado-cash-developer-alexey-pertsev-sentenced-to-64-months-in-prison-in-the-netherlands/
• https://freedom.tech/tornado-cash-developer-convicted/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/fbi-warns-americans-against-using-no-kyc-services/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/phoenix-wallet-to-be-removed-from-us-app-stores-on-may-3/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/zksnacks-to-suspend-its-coinjoin-coordination-service-on-june-1st/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/agoradesk-localmonero-shutting-down/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/ibex-pay-quits-us/

SOFTWARE & UPDATES

• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/samourai-dojo-v1-25-0/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/hodl-hodl-introduces-new-interface/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/mutiny-wallet-v1-7-0/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/robosats-v0-6-1-alpha/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/zeus-v0-8-4/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/bitcoin-keeper-v1-2-6/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/blockstream-green-desktop-v2-0-5/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/bluewallet-v6-6-5/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/sentrum-v0-1-8/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/utreexod-v0-3-1/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/sparrow-wallet-v1-9-1/
• https://twitter.com/stack_wallet/status/1790792348638515586
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/ocean-pool-integrates-bolt12-lightning-payouts/
• https://silentpayments.xyz/docs/explained/
  
  

SHOW SPONSORS


FOUNDATION - https://foundation.xyz/ungovernable

 Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.
 
As a sovereign computing company, Foundation is the antithesis of today’s tech conglomerates. Returning to cypherpunk principles, they build open source technology that “can’t be evil,”
 
Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show.
 
Use code: Ungovernable at check out for 3 months free VPN usage with IVPN.

(00:00:00) INTRO 🔥

(00:01:42) THANK YOU UNGOVERNABLE MISFITS

(00:02:30) THANKS TO FOUNDATION

(00:03:51) Burning the Midnight Oil

(00:05:04) Bitcoin Monthly Boosters

(00:15:59) CLOSING TIME: Wasabi, Agora Desk/Localmonero, Phoenix & Ibex

(00:21:11) Put Some Respect On Their Names

(00:25:42) Tornado Cash Dev Sentenced to 5 Years in Prison

(00:33:35) Robosats on Android Update

(00:34:49) Sparrow Wallet Ditches the Old Testnet

(00:37:40) "Fiddley Fucking Cunt"

(00:40:15) Stack Wallet Gets FROSTY

(00:43:28) The "Dumb" Question Before the Questions

(00:47:16) Q1: Samourai Alternatives

(00:51:19) Q2: Release the Code

(00:52:42) Q3: What's Up W/ Wasabi?

(00:52:52) Q4: Lightning Tradeoffs

(00:57:36) Q5: Privacy on Lightning

(00:57:49) Q6: What are Silent Payments?

(01:05:41) Q7: Is My Face Scanning Lifestyle Risky?

(01:06:17) Q8: Silent Payments VS. Paynym

(01:06:24) Q9: Greedy Jacky

(01:08:42) Q10: Side-eyeing XMR

(01:11:02) Q11: Last Time Jacky

(01:19:51) Q12: Calculating Multisig TX Fees

(01:22:07) Q13: Promising Privacy Based Projects/BIPs

(01:22:57) Q14: Privacy At The Phone Level

(01:24:04) WTF. Sort Out Your Sats Converter Mate.

(01:26:10) Seth's Silent Payment Website

(01:26:39) We Crushed It Mate, See You Next Month

[00:00:04] Unknown:

Bitcoin   is close to becoming worthless.   Now what's the Bitcoin?  

[00:00:19] Unknown:

Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah.   Oh. The greatest scam in history.  

[00:00:25] Unknown:

Let's get it.  

[00:00:27] Unknown:

Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. Yeah.   Alright, you ungovernable misfits.   I'm your host, Max.   Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong?   What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?   Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin   Bitcoin rabbit hole. Welcome back to Bitcoin Monthly, the show you need if you wanna keep up to date with all of the developments in Bitcoin,   the things that matter outside of the price   and the noise and the bullshit. If you wanna know about software updates, you wanna know how to use the tools,   keep yourself private and secure,   this is the show for you. If you've been listening for a while and you enjoy the show, we would really appreciate it if you can share this with friends and family   who might be starting to use Bitcoin   and help them avoid all the bullshit out there.  

Before we start, I wanna thank everyone percent   of   our   listeners   are now listening on Podcasting 2.0 percent of our listeners are now listening on podcasting 2 point o apps, which is incredible.   And every time we get streaming some sats or get sent in a boost or a question,   we really do appreciate it.   I also wanna thank all of the lightning   disrespectors.   Some of you will not use Podcasting 2 point o. You will not use Lightning, but you are sending in pain in boosts.   That is very much appreciated. So thank you to all of you and everyone who's been buying the clothing,   buying the artwork, and sharing this show with friends and family.  

It all really helps.   Finally, I wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices.   Foundation Devices help keep this show running,   and they do things properly.   Everything they do is fully open source.   Their hardware   is absolutely   beautiful,   and it is fuckwit resistant.   I use this all the time.   I have no issues with it. I don't manage to break it like everything else. It is piss easy to use.   And that's what you want from your hardware. You don't wanna be worrying,   getting scared, and making mistakes   with your life savings.   You can use their companion app, Envoy, which makes labeling   very simple.  

You can do backups   that are encrypted,   so you keep all of your labels,   or you can use this with Sparrow.   It really is the best hardware out there. And if you are scared to do this by yourself, you can go to any of the guides out there that make it very simple. They have them all on the website as well.   And if even that is too much for you, you can pay an extra $99,   and you can have Bitcoin q and a himself,   hold your hand, and walk you through the process.   Check them out at foundationdevices.com,   and use the code Ungovernable.   Evening, mate. This is weird recording quite so late.  



[00:03:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I was having a lot of whine about it before because, as the listeners know from me whinging about this before now when we've been recording earlier shows. Not my prime, so I'll make my apologies early on in the show that, if I'm not feeling tip top, hopefully, Max can edit me to sound polished as I do at 6 AM.  

[00:04:16] Unknown:

Well, it is nearly 8:30 in the evening. I'm just about to have a large cafeteria of coffee.   That's how fucked I am. No way. Really? Yeah. That's what I'm having now. I'm fucked, mate. I've been up since 4. Christ. It doesn't matter because I'm just so excited to hear your voice and speak about the topics we've got in the list. So it's giving me a little boost of energy.  

[00:04:38] Unknown:

There we go. Maybe don't have the coffee. Like, that's certainly not healthy, Max, I'm concerned. Definitely not. I've had so many today as well. It's a absolute disgrace, but there you go. That's blown my fucking mind. You're gonna have a cafeteria of coffee at past 8 PM. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've gotta edit tonight as well. So, you know. Jesus. We'll stay up, mate. Listeners, hope you know what he goes through for for you guys.  

[00:05:01] Unknown:

I know. I know.   Torture.   We had   a ridiculous amount of boosts,   so thank you to everyone who's been boosting the show. We were number 1, number 2, and number 3 on Fountain. Can we just take a a second to pause and appreciate how fucking cool that is? Pretty cool on 23.  

[00:05:22] Unknown:

Beating the likes of Mccuck, Matt O'Dell, all of them off the top spot. Love it. Love to see it. One in particular,  

[00:05:30] Unknown:

of those, aforementioned.   So   and it's not you, Odell. Just amazing to see the support when I'll be editing   later this evening and throughout the morning. I'll be thinking of that, and it will keep me going. So huge appreciation.   We'll jump in.   Boost number 1,   warm   orange tart,   21100,   boosted 69,420   sats.  

[00:05:57] Unknown:

Nice.  

[00:05:58] Unknown:

Sending some sats because I do enjoy our chats.   Kiss, kiss, kiss. This episode has me wondering how much it costs to have q and a hold more than my hand.  

[00:06:09] Unknown:

Oh. Well, let me just jump in there before you read the rest. Not a lot. It's no. It's a lot more than 69,000   sats, let me tell you that. I don't come cheap. Oh, okay. Not for that sort of shit anyway. But he does deliver. Everybody's got a price. Fucking hell. Mine's much lower than 69,000 stats.  

[00:06:27] Unknown:

I do need some help with my node.   His voice is not of a cartoon wallaby.   Warm,   soft,   reassuring,   little, like, sexy bitey lip.   I learned so much listening to the smart people you surround yourself with, Max. Hey. That's a bit fucking mean. Doors always open at the Hash Slut Hut   for any other fans   of the show to come and discuss the hot,   sweaty little hot face button   topics, kiss kiss,  

[00:06:59] Unknown:

cherry pop. You are super fan here, mate. I don't know whether to be appreciative or a little bit creeped out. Probably a bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. No. Thank you for your boost, warmonger.   War   war War orange tart. Oh, yeah. Warm orange tart.   I thought it was like warmongerer   tart.   A second boost   from Hashslot   boosted 61,020   sats, and he Hashslut.   Hashslutette.   Yeah. They said, q and a is giving me real bad boy money transmitter vibes.   Please say, brace yourselves,   UTXO   Management.   In your next episode, just for me, kiss. Well, I hope that, was everything you hoped it was gonna be, Hash slot. She's gonna absolutely love that.  

[00:07:46] Unknown:

Late stage HODL   boosted   55,555   sats. Thank you, gentlemen.  

[00:07:52] Unknown:

I was hoping I wasn't gonna get one of these, but at user 8544-5985   boosted 40,000 sats and said, hashtag free samurai.  

[00:08:02] Unknown:

Absolutely cosign that. John. Oh, fucking hell. What's this guy got to say for himself?   Oh, he did send 21,000   sats. Thank you, John.   Good point, q, about using Fountain or other podcasting 2.0 apps to listen to the ungovernable misfits.   You don't have to be a lightning bro to use it. There are some serious players, and they give the listener a delight for the senses.   With the chapters and gifts, by the way, Q, I'm sure your singing voice is beautiful.   And then we can make it if we really   try.  

[00:08:36] Unknown:

Just oh, that's 2 different songs, isn't it? I'm so glad you followed through with that game. Visitor.  

[00:08:46] Unknown:

Obviously, this is intended to be the duet between you and Max. Okay. So I did the first bit. We can make it if we really try, and then you do. Yeah. Ain't gonna happen, mate. Oh, okay. Sorry, John. Sorry, John. Fucking hell. I'll leave the singing to you. And by you, I mean John.  

[00:09:05] Unknown:

Hashlook, again, boosted 20,000 sats and said, you can't make this UTX   ho a housewife.  

[00:09:14] Unknown:

And, again, Hashslutette   boosted 20,000   sats just to say   FFC,   FFC.   That's actually directed at me, anyone who listened to the last show. FFC stands for fat fat cunt. It's a folder I have on my phone to remind myself what a fat fat cunt I am, and I get my missus to take photos just to try and stop me being such an FFC.   8 Myth Randy has thrown his fucking or in, hasn't he? Boosted 17,777   SAT.   FFC.   Mr. Mr. Boosted 10,138   SATs to remind me that I am an FFC.   Any more FFCs here? Oh, here we are. Hashslutette   as well. Fucking hell. All the nice things to you and then 10,000 sats to tell me again. F f c.   Late stage HODL boosted another 10,000 sats. F f c. If you know you know, hashtag   me too.  

Sickening.  

[00:10:11] Unknown:

That was my favorite part of the boost so far.   Mistercrown,   the legend boosted 10,021   sat. And he said, look, mom, I made it. I'm a super, super, super, super, super shadowy coder.   As always, great episode. Keep building. As we can see, there are counterparties trying to destroy it. Yeah. Ain't that the truth? Wait till we get to the the news section.   Sat's Misfit boosted 10,000 sat's. Boosted before I listened because fuck you, I won't do what you tell me. Now that is gangster.  

[00:10:42] Unknown:

Ghost of Shadrach.  

[00:10:44] Unknown:

You beat me to it. Go on. Yeah. Ghost of Shadrach.  

[00:10:47] Unknown:

6,667   sats. Money transmitter go  

[00:10:54] Unknown:

brrrr. This one tickled me. Atrodpalmerhoddle   boosted 5,000 SATs   and said, the funny accents that throw me off, are you guys from Boston?   No. I can't speak for Max. I won't talk to his location, but I'm certainly not from Boston. Although, I was there 2 weeks ago, funny enough. You're such a jet setter, mate. What's it like? I had a really good time. Really nice city. It's like the Americans are probably gonna boost now and cut to tell me I'm full of shit. But it kind of has, like, New York vibes, but with better architecture and less strange people. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. A higher quality of people, you could maybe say. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'd probably feel fairly comfortable   with my wife walking down the high street, and she's not gonna get stabbed. Okay. Which ain't gonna happen in New York.  



[00:11:41] Unknown:

That's everything you want out of a city, to be fair. Yeah. Yeah. Like, to come out alive. It's,   probably   not what we could necessarily say about our local cities, our cities   closest to us.  

[00:11:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Ain't that the truth?  

[00:11:56] Unknown:

If you wanna roll the dice and you wanna get stabbed, I can recommend the UK. We have some really great spots. Yeah. You don't really have to look that far, do you? No. You don't. You don't have to do much.   Anyway,   wartime boosted   3,333   sats, just daggers crossing. Not sure what that means, but thank you, wartime.  

[00:12:18] Unknown:

Bon boosted 3,210   sets, and he boosted 5 lightning bolt emojis.  

[00:12:24] Unknown:

Vake boosted 3,000 sets. Hashtag  

[00:12:27] Unknown:

free samurai. Cosine. Mister mister boosted 2,992   sats. I feel like I've missed a party. I guess I actually have to listen to this episode, and we'll do it tomorrow. Hashtag free samurai. Another ball is boosted before he's listened, so kudos. And also cosign. Hashtag free samurai. Mister mister boosted again, 2,991  

[00:12:47] Unknown:

sats.   NB hosts. Now I recall why I paused listening to this show and therefore participating with the boost.   This is the 2nd recent episode I've downloaded, which tripped my OS antivirus   Windows 10.   So I haven't bothered listening to this episode yet. I'm still pretty pissed at all the wasted quarantining   this episode after   downloading   I'm kinda surprised that I haven't noticed anyone else boosting about this, but then again, most punters probably stream their media. Please check the comment.  

[00:13:21] Unknown:

I know exactly what it is. Really? Yeah. He's running Windows.   Just throw it in a fucking bin. Yeah. What are you doing, to be fair? I'll refund you the 3,000 sat so you can buy yourself a proper operating system if you want to, mate. Yeah. I'll not refund you the sat so that you don't get the next because it's free anywhere you fund. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Just put the Nix on your existing machine. But if you'll do it, I will pay 3,000 SATs to do it. Okay. That's very good of you.  

[00:13:45] Unknown:

Huxley boosted.   Cheers, lads.  

[00:13:48] Unknown:

Bubba, 2,112   sats. Here's to my cousin, Max. The blithering idiots will inherit the earth. We'll be we we will be the kings of the roaches.  

[00:13:59] Unknown:

Chits, mate. Appreciate that.   Pleb to polymath boosted a 100 sats. Didn't say anything. Or maybe he just said boosted. No. No. He said  

[00:14:08] Unknown:

nothing.   Pies, a 100 sats. Max, you fat lazy fucker. Get   get back to your militant workouts.  

[00:14:18] Unknown:

Sorry mate. Do you know pies can do like 40 pull ups with no kipping?   I'll, believe it when I see it. Yeah. Well, me too. Me too. But apparently  

[00:14:29] Unknown:

Is he a, like, a a marine or something? Maybe then I might believe it. I think he might be. In that case, I believe everything you said, please don't hurt me.  

[00:14:39] Unknown:

Pye's also boosted some beers. Definitely a marine then. Katharine Thier.   First show I heard. I will certainly listen to previous episodes, but not any future ones.   Thanks, Fountain, to bring this show to my attention. Keep up the good work. And that is why  

[00:14:55] Unknown:

you, listener, boosting this show is so important because when you do that, it shoves it under the nose of people that don't subscribe. So thank you if you contributed   to that. Last one, pies again. Much love my brethren, but I'm going to have to suggest having a friend from across the pond on every episode. It's just not the same energy without a wild gun waving American badass on. Just saying.   I feel like I need a tea and biscuit while wearing a proper top hat without John. Thanks for all your work. Cheers.  

[00:15:26] Unknown:

And, finally, thanks for your work. Cheers, Mars. I had to search for that one because it wasn't on fountain. Thanks for always keeping it real from Zed   War Twit,   also not on fountain. So thank you to both of you. Really appreciate it. I wondered why those, boosts looked a bit different to the rest. Now it all makes sense. Yeah. I've got to search all over the place for these extra boosts. We haven't quite got the system sorted, but,  

[00:15:52] Unknown:

I found them. Don't worry. I found them. Well, if you were among those that we just read out, thank you very much. Really, really does help the show. Onto   some news from the past month.   Spoiler alert. It's not a full section of the show, but, yeah. It's it's something that we we kind of have to do to stay abreast of what's going on. TLDR,   everyone's shutting down. So I won't go too deep into some of these, but, Phoenix Wallet, the popular lightning wallet that we've spoken about,   many, many times on the show and I personally recommended,   has decided to stop serving US based customers from May 3rd. And no doubt as a part of,   recent enforcement that have been made or indictment, shall we say. More on that later.  

Zk Snacks, the coordinator   behind Wasabi Wallet, originally, back in May, mentioned that they were going to stop serving US customers.   That lasted for about 5 days,   then they did another announcement that said that the zk SNACH coordinator   is going to just shut down indefinitely.   Basically, just making Wasabi Wallet a  

[00:16:57] Unknown:

run of the mill desktop wallet with no coin joining it. Just really wound me up about that is I did a full episode with Urban Hacker about the tools, what you can use after everything that's gone on with samurai.   And being Urban Hacker and being such a good guy, he decided to download all the options, start playing around with everything,   use join market, use Wasabi,   did his own analysis on it all. Just did everything so that he could give all the options and give a fair review.   Did all that. I spent   fucking, like, 12 hours editing the show, getting it all clean, making sure he wasn't doxxed, blah blah blah blah blah, doing all the stuff. We got all the show notes done. We got everything finished, and then it's ready for release. And then they're like,   yeah. We're closing down. I was like, brilliant. Cheers for that, guys.  



[00:17:46] Unknown:

Great timing. Well, if it helps, I I've also been doing some some market research on the one remaining option. And I know we've got a couple of questions on that later, so we can dive into   that. Sure. So oh, yeah. Just back to Wasabi for a second. What I found really funny was that they announced, on May 2nd that live from June 1st,   so in a couple of weeks, the Coinge and coordination stopped indefinitely.   A couple of days ago, they released another   release or announcement   to say that they've just added a feature where you can coinjoin 2 external wallets,   bit like Mhmm. Mix to XPOP sort of thing. The like, we used to have in Spiro and and Whirlpool CLI. It just seems strange to have gone through all of that trouble to release that just as the the coin joint coordination is about to stop. Mhmm. I think I know the reason why. It's because   in the back end of Wasabi, I believe you can still obviously, not speaking from experience here because I won't use the software, but I believe you can dictate that you want to use a different coordinator.  

So I guess that they're releasing that hoping that some other brave soul is gonna   spin up a   Wasabi coordination   service and that you can point your Wasabi wallet to that and then use that feature potentially. I don't know. Yeah. Well, we covered this with Urban a little bit. That is an option, potentially.  

[00:19:05] Unknown:

But, obviously, then   the actual pool or liquidity pool or whatever you'd call it would obviously be very small to start with, and then it's Yeah. Relatively trivial to.   So,   theoretically, yes, it could be done.   Whether you draw enough liquidity to make it a usable tool,   he's skeptical.   So As am I? We'll see. Yeah. As am I. With my limited knowledge,   so am I. Okay. Next, AgoraDesk  

[00:19:33] Unknown:

slash LocalMonero   is a peer to peer was a peer to peer marketplace where you could do swaps between currencies, but you could also crucially go from Bitcoin to fiat and fiat to Bitcoin in a peer to peer way similar to what you would with huddle, hobble, or bisk, also shutting down as of November 7th.   So if you've got active trades on there, you can still complete them, but they're not accepting any more trade postings,   and that will be wind down entirely as of   November 7th. So that one is really sad to see.   You know Yeah. Not good. Not great that we see peer to peer on and off ramps. You know, they're already few and far between, especially good ones, and AgoraDesk was definitely one of those. Had a great UI and was really kind of, you know, a pleasure to use.  

So sad to see this one go, but   at least they're kind of shutting down ahead of, you know, having to shotgun KYC users or any shit like that. So they've they've kind of bowed out and   took the honorable route. Yeah. It's the right thing to do. Yep. This one was this one came out today. In fact, Ibex pay,   suspended services within the United States.   I don't really know a great deal about Ibex, but,   yeah, they've I've got a quote here from the No Bullshit Bitcoin article that basically just says, yeah, after careful consideration that they are going   to see serving US customers from the 31st May,   and all pay services within the USA will be suspended.  



[00:20:56] Unknown:

Well, I guess maybe they are concerned about money transmitter   things because Yes.  

[00:21:04] Unknown:

All of the above, in my opinion, are trickle down chilling effect from the the samurai indictments.   Of which, by the way, quick updates for those that are not keeping close to this, they're obviously not gonna use their names even though they are public now, unfortunately.   The founder that was, arrested in Portugal has been no news at all,   which is pretty worrying in my opinion. And then the other founder that was arrested in the US   is out on bond,   and he was supposed to have a hearing this week, which has now been pushed back for another 2 weeks. So,   essentially, there's no new,   news at this time.  



[00:21:42] Unknown:

Yeah.   Just a quick, word on that. It'd be nice if everyone stopped using their  

[00:21:49] Unknown:

names. Yep. Have some respect.  

[00:21:51] Unknown:

Yeah. They didn't approve that. They wanted to use their NIMs.   The government's come in and fucked everything up and put them in a cage and   doxed their names and everything else, it doesn't mean that we need to do it. So be respectful to call them by their proper names, which is samurai and T Dev.  

[00:22:12] Unknown:

Yep. Agreed.   We've also had this was just after the last show, but worth mentioning.   FBI issues warning against using no KYC cryptocurrency   money transmitting   services.   Basically, kind of a a a public service announcement designed to scare people into   inaction,   essentially. Quote, the FBI warns Americans against using cryptocurrency money transmitting services that are not registered as money service businesses according to the United States federal law and do not adhere to anti money laundering requirements.   Cryptocurrency money transmitting services that purposefully break the law know or knowingly facilitate illegal transactions will be investigated by law enforcement.  

Using a service that does not comply with its legal obligations may put you at risk of losing access to funds after a law enforcement operation targets those businesses.   Yeah. So, again, just another nail in the coffin to confirm that all of this is entirely coordinated   as a wide attack on the entire ecosystem   and is,   well, not great to read and to hear about, to be honest.  

[00:23:18] Unknown:

No. Not good at all. Not scare everyone and, like, get all dramatic, but   this is the first time this last   month or so, whatever it's been,   first time I've been quite bearish on Bitcoin and the Bitcoin space. It's   really not been good thing to see.   I think the main thing that's not been good to see is that people seem to have almost sort of forgotten what's happened and just, like, carrying on.   What I would have maybe liked to see is just, like, a real   kickback, pushback,   people building shit. And I know some people are, but, like,   it just feels a little bit like it's not being taken quite seriously as it should be. And it's the first time in,   well, many, many years that I've felt like, fuck. This is, this is really, really bad.  



[00:24:10] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there's kinda 2 ways that you can look at this. There's your viewpoint, which, you know, I'm pretty much on the same page as you as what you've just mentioned. But I've seen a couple of tweets and notes kind of taking the other viewpoint being like, okay. Look. They've they've chopped the head off the the easy stuff, the centralized,   quote, unquote, money transmitting services or privacy services where there is an easy to target   single point, and that is   gonna have some scare or some chilling effect, which we've just been talking about with x, y, and zed closing down left, right, and center almost by the day at the moment. But there's it's gonna push a small percentage of those people to go dark probably and to build   more robust services that are less easy to target. And, obviously, how that is carried out is gonna be critical in the future because it seems as though the,   I guess, the age old saying the the long arm of the law, you know, it's got a pretty long fucking reach, and it's getting longer by the day. So,   we've gotta you know, these tools, if they're gonna   be resilient to stand the test of time and the the long arm of the law, then Mhmm. You know, people who are driven enough to do so are gonna have to be very careful in the way that the architect thinks and and obviously be a complete NIM.  



[00:25:24] Unknown:

Yeah. That is the positive way to look at it. And a lot of people have said for a long time, it's like the best thing that could ever happen to Bitcoin is it gets banned because people think about things a little bit more carefully, and it gets a little less wanky and a little less banky and a bit more cypherpunk.   So, yeah, I guess you're probably right.  

[00:25:42] Unknown:

Yeah. So cap off the new section,   the biggest one of the of the recent month outside of the samurai,   indictments.   This week, just 2 days ago on May 14th,   one of the Tornado Cash developers,   who was indicted a long time ago,   has been sentenced to over 5 years in prison as a result of his work on the project.   So quick refresher, Tornado Cash was a   or is, sorry, ironically,   still running, by the way. We'll get onto that in a second. Tornado Cash is a decentralized smart contract   privacy tool for Ethereum. Basically, just allows you to kind of generate or take part in kind of coin joints in a decentralized fashion that are pretty much, from my understanding, more unstoppable than anything we've currently got on Bitcoin today. And that's evident from the fact that this guy has been locked up already awaiting trial   for quite some time until Nasdaqash has not stopped working.  

So it's testament to the resilience of that project and kind of, I guess, I had to wait to what we were saying earlier about, you know, being careful how you   architect certain types of software.   So he got indicted a long time ago in the Netherlands. He was sentenced   this week   to 5 years in prison. Some important details here, and I will signpost the users if they wanna deep dive on this to, freedom dot tech. There's a great article that, Seth's written there. Some important details on Tornado Cash, which have really drive home the insanity of this conviction. The Tornado devs   sorry. Tornado Cash devs had no ability to edit the smart contract.  

My understanding is this was kind of of a set of set it and forget it. And once kind of it was started rolling, even though they were the ones that created it, they couldn't edit it or stop it after that. They never had custody of any user funds. It was entirely noncustodial.   They didn't even profit off this,   and most of the usage came through an official kind of web UI that these guys made. And as I said earlier, the the Tornado Cash, the smart contract has still continued to function   despite these guys not working on it for some time now after the, you know, the initial indictment that they received.   There's some shocking kind of quotes and facts here   from the prosecutor or the judge on this case. Some quick headlines on them. Custody is not required for money laundering. The Tornado Cash did not at any time have the power of disposal over the cryptocurrency derived from the crime in carrying out these concealments.  

And the performance of these money laundering acts does not require the existence of power of disposal, I e, you know, taking custody of them. Basically, they were found guilty because they produced the tool that enabled   what some people decide decided to be illicit usage.   And because they architected it in such a way that they were unable to put preventions in place to stop some illicit activity,   they are now guilty.   So in other words So fucked. The Tornado Cash founders are the inventors, creators, and implementers of Tornado Cash. As such, they are also responsible for the consequences   of the operation of this tool.  

The autonomous, immutable, and unstoppable nature of the smart contract does not work in this context as a mitigating factor.   After all, this is not a fortuitous circumstance.   These properties are the result of conscious choices made by the designers.   Tornado Cash works as it was conceived. In the court's opinion, The defendant can therefore be classified as a perpetrator of the money laundering act carried out by Tornado Cash.   So I when I read this, I was like,   holy fuck. That's completely insane.   I came out with the   I tweeted this somewhat flawed analogy to try and drive it home to people that weren't gonna read all of this stuff that I've just mentioned.  

And I think some of it holds true. If I was to buy a car from Ford Don't do that for a start. Well, yeah. Yeah. I don't own a Ford, by the way, before you boost and call me an idiot.   Just an example. If I buy a car from Ford and drive it into a bus stop full of children and kill them all, Is Ford now liable because they did nothing to prevent me from driving into a bus stop full of children?   Like, it's fucking bonkers.  

[00:29:54] Unknown:

It is bonkers.  

[00:29:55] Unknown:

And Pavel,   the I think his Twitter handle is Pavel Lakota on Twitter. Yeah. He came up with a much better analogy that really drives this home. Right?   Masked robbers were able to get away with the crime because it wasn't possible to identify them.   We should now prosecute the mask manufacturer   for enabling this.   Think about that for a few seconds if you're listening to this, and think about the insanity of that. That's basically what's happened to this tornado cache guy. He's made a privacy tool for Ethereum users. And because some people have done bad things or what the prosecutor thinks are bad things,   the inventor of that tool has now been thrown in jail for 5 years.  

It's absolutely just   I I'm lost for words. And aside from the fact that, yeah, this is horrific, it's completely insane, it's complete overreach,   this is now enshrined into law, albeit not in the US, which is kind of,   I guess, a tiny plus from this for now. This basically just sets the scene for anybody that produces any open source code or any code for that matter   that is used for anything that could be deemed illegal now or at any point in the future is now able to be held liable   for the actions that they took to make that code. So this goes way bigger than Bitcoin.   You make an open source chat tool, and then   horrible people decide to use it for CP sharing CP pictures.  

How the hell could you hold the creator of that chat tool responsible?  

[00:31:22] Unknown:

It's just like a catch all   crazy fucking rule.   While you were saying it though, my brain was just ticking along, and I was like, how'd you get around this? And, obviously, it's   like, well, you have anonymous   developers who are very brave, who do this despite the laws,   and they hope that they cover their tracks well enough that they don't end up in a cage. And there will be people like that, and that's   admirable. It's   probably the way it's gonna go. But I also thought, well, what about   some of the older,   sicker,   dying cypherpunks,   people who really care about what the future's gonna look like for their children and grandchildren,   they know they're gonna die. What if they just do it publicly?  

What's the government gonna do then?   I sentenced you to 20 years. Oh, I've got about 3 months, mate, so fucking good luck.  

[00:32:13] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Fair point. And there's probably some legs to it. I guess then they would move the choke hold choke hold down to anybody openly distributing that because it'd have to be hosted somewhere and, yeah, that that's kind of an easy problem to fix with things like Bittore and and and whatnot, I suppose.  

[00:32:30] Unknown:

Covering your tracks and hiding and releasing   software is not easy.   It's not that simple, and   there are gonna be more and more people who are   hopefully caring about this and   wanting to see things change. And if you are gonna die anyway,   you might as well go out with a bang. You might as well do something that could potentially   do something good. What do they got over you? Not a lot.  

[00:32:56] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a fair one.   Do you know of any people in that position?  

[00:33:02] Unknown:

No. If if I keep going how I am, maybe it'd be me in a couple of months. So if anyone has any amazing software, just give me a shout. I'll let you know roughly look. If if it's any less than 6 months on the clock, I'll, I'll put myself up for it. Alright?  

[00:33:18] Unknown:

So just to cap off this Tornado Cash 1, I think they've got a good chance to appeal here to to get some of this overturned or   sent introduced or something.   At least I hope so anyway because the the precedent that this sets, like, pretty wild, really, what it could mean.   Not good.   Okay.   We have been chatting for quite a while, and we haven't even done the list. So I've I've just shortlisted some,   updates and releases that are notable before we get on to all of the questions that we've got. Thank you for for throwing those in, by the way.   Some important ones I wanted to highlight, Robosats   fee 0.6.1   alpha, the Android app returns stronger than ever. So, yeah, they've had a Android app for quite a while   when they were   updating the kind of web version of it at breakneck speed, adding loads of cool features and optimizations.  

The Android app kind of fell by the wayside because it wasn't the primary kind of,   way that they wanted to intend people to use it. But now the Android app has been brought back up to speed, and you bet your bottom dollar that you can obviously get this through F   droid or direct APK   from their GitHub repository   as well. Nice. So, you know, no need to have to tell Google that you're gonna go and use a, you know, likely illegal   I said that term in jest, by the way, before anybody jumps down my throat. Peer to peer up. Yeah. So big fan of Robosats, and thank you to anybody that's behind that. I've got no idea who it is, and I've got no decide to know who it is. But if you're listening to this and you work on Robosats,   thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. It's awesome. Spiral Wallet v 1.9.1.  

Main notes here are that Craig has added test net 4.   There might be people listening to this going, wait. There's 3 of the test nets already? Yeah. Me. I'm wondering that. Yeah.   So so up until now, the thing that we all call testnet was testnet 3. So if you went to mempool.space/testnet,   that was under the hood called testnet3.   For reasons, I don't know. Probably because it's the 3rd time it's been reset, because I know they've reset them in the past. So why is testnet 4 about? Okay. So I kind of skimmed the surface of this one, but, basically,   two main reasons from what I can see. Number 1, people were starting to use testnet for,   like, shitcoin sales.  

Even though testnet has no kind of real world value, in some people's eyes, it did. There was actually markets that sprung up where you could sell testnet sat for real Bitcoin, very, very small amounts,   but there was   a a swap in the marketplace that way. And there was also using it for kind of peg ins and outs of some shit coins of which I've got no idea what they're called. So that was reason number 1. Reason number 2, mister Lopp, mister Jameson Lopp obviously got wind that they were doing that and decided to attack the Testnet network to kind of screw with them. Knowing full well that whilst, yes, it's probably quite easy to attack Testnet because it doesn't have the same mining power and any incentives at all economic incentives, should I say. So he wasn't kind of upsetting many people   apart from me. So he was kind of playing this weird kind of block withholding and flooding kind of attack on them. And for anybody who works in the industry that relied on test net, like, the last   3 to 4 weeks of that when he's been doing this have been pretty tough because testnet should have been completely fucked.  

So, yeah, hence, testnet 4 is now available.   And Craig, through to form, is one of the first wallets to to add support for it. So for those of you that do use testnet from a user perspective,   I don't think there'll be any change whatsoever.   I presume all the address formats will be the same and stuff. But if you were in a position where you've been milking some testnet faucets and turned yourself into a bit of a testnet whale like myself and thought you're a bit of a baller, yeah,   those sats are kind of, useless because everybody's gonna be turning their backs on testnet 3 pretty soon. I also believe there are some faucets   popping up around testnet 4 as well. If I can dig out one of those links, I'll drop it into the show notes, Max.  



[00:37:19] Unknown:

Why don't you use   real Bitcoin like a real man?  

[00:37:23] Unknown:

For the amount of testing I do, if I did, I'd be broke.  

[00:37:28] Unknown:

Okay. I've still never used it. I've never used Testnet in my entire life for anything.  

[00:37:34] Unknown:

If, if you've used Mainnet, which I presume you have, then it's exactly the same, funny enough. So you're you're not missing out on much.  

[00:37:41] Unknown:

Did you like my,   typing out manually an address last week?  

[00:37:46] Unknown:

Yeah. Can we discuss that, please?  

[00:37:48] Unknown:

Can we can we address this? I won't go into the specifics of it, but usual   fucking stupid   setup that I've made up in my head there. Everyone would be like, that's ridiculous what you're doing here.   I couldn't scan or copy and paste an address across, and I wanted to send a payment.   And so   I just manually did it with my dyslexic fucking brain,   typed it out, and then sent it. And then I put a thing on Twitter saying I can't remember what I said now. Something like,   that feeling when you're typing in the dress out manually and then like a panics thing. And then I got   got a message from Q just like something along the lines of, what the fuck are you doing, you dick?  

What   What are you doing, retard? Yeah. That was the gist of it. Which is fair. I look forward to discussing the details of that as to why the fuck you felt felt that you needed to do that. Obviously, we'll do that offline. Yeah. Yeah. It might it might be doxing, but it I I mean, I can say this. It was it was down to me just being a fucking weirdo with my setup and just doing weird shit.   That's why it's not something I sort of make a habit of. And then I've I thought, well,   do you know what? I'm just gonna do this because I've never done it before, and fuck it. Let's just give it a go. So   I did, and it worked, and it was fine. Did it work first time, or did you get an invalid address? No. No. It worked first time. My Bitcoin actually works, mate. Nice. Okay. I'm impressed.  



[00:39:17] Unknown:

Drop a comment, by the way, if you've ever done that. I'm curious to see whether Max is just the only weirdo we've got that would ever consider doing that.  

[00:39:25] Unknown:

Very recently, because of a similar setup,   when I was connecting   to nodes and, you know, you have, like, your Tor address that you'd connect to. Oh god. Every time I wanted to connect, I had to manually type that shit out as well. Jesus Christ. Because I couldn't I couldn't copy and paste it across.   So I was man every time I was connecting to a node, I was having to sit and manually do that. That was disgusting.  

[00:39:49] Unknown:

I feel like we need to come up with another   abbreviation that describes this ridiculous situation that fits with FFC so it can have a dual purpose.   Maybe that's a challenge for the listeners.  

[00:40:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Come up with something. Let us know. Like a fiddly fucking cunt or something like that.  

[00:40:07] Unknown:

See if you can beat that list.   It's gotta fit with FFC though. Yeah.   Okay. Last one of the releases.   Shout out to the guys at Stack Wallet. They have been the 1st wallet to market that has   released Frost Multisig, which is basically Taproot Multisig.   Mhmm. And they've done it on mobile as well in a completely open source fashion.   So,   yeah, super hats off to that. I won't go into the details mainly because I don't know them. But, yeah, this is the first implementation   of Taproot Multisig,   of which there are many different proposals, frost being just one of them. I believe frost isn't an, abbreviation for something, but, again, not sure what that is. The main TLDR here is, aside from it using Taproot, is and I'm quoting the Stack Wallet guys here. Frost is a new multisig scheme that allows editing the signer set   without having to make a brand new multisig wallet and send the funds from the old to the new one, which is very cool because, like, let's say you've got a 2 of 3 in a Frost multisig,   and you lose key number 2.  

Currently, what you'd have to do with a traditional multisig is use the remaining two keys   to send the funds from multisig wallet number 1 to multisig wallet number 2 that you'd have to create once you've replaced that 3rd key. So that would be Mhmm. Number 1, a ball ache, and number 2, a privacy leak because you you can have to kind of potentially merge UTXOs,   when you send it from a to b. Or if you don't do that, it's gonna cost you a lot of money and fees to move those UTXOs   1 by 1 from multisig wallet 1 to 2.   So not a nice experience, basically.  

With Frost now, you can do that in a completely offline   fashion where, basically,   due to the magic of Taproot, you can remove that lost key, replace it with another one. And on the blockchain and in terms of, like, any spending that you have to do, there is no movement whatsoever.   Pretty cool.  

[00:42:02] Unknown:

That's very cool. And just to give Stack Wallet a bit of a shout out, they've been doing some really good stuff for a while now. They did their Stack Duo thing, which I've used for a while, and that had both Monero   and Bitcoin and swaps in there. It also had PayNim support in there.   Really user friendly, really easy, really clean.   I had Diego   from Stack Wallet on the show maybe 6 months ago and talked about some of that stuff, but,   very clean,   works on iPhone, works on Android,  

[00:42:34] Unknown:

doing some good stuff. We have a lot of, chat offline with our team and their team. They used our,   tool library from Envoy,   obviously, because it's completely open source library. So they kind of built on top of that and added that into,   Stackwell.   And only today, literally 3 hours ago,   the the lead dev over there, messaged us just giving us the heads up on this one in case we've missed it on Twitter and linking us straight to the library that they've built for this frost multisave saying, basically, guys, here you go. Make sure you use it when you wanna implement this into Envoy as well. So, yeah, again, I talk about FOSS all the time, but that's it. Life happening, and it's beautiful. Love to say   it. Yeah. So there's loads more on the list. Maybe I'll include all the links, Max, and you can drop them into the show notes for people that are interested in what we were gonna talk about. Mhmm. But we have a load of questions.  

Maybe, like, 13,   I think I said, questions.  

[00:43:29] Unknown:

Can I ask a dumb question before we get into the questions?   You can. I saw Foundation had done a tweet about key management.   Two questions, really. 1,   can I do that   with   anything outside of Bitcoin and Noster keys?   So, like, could I do it with, like, PGP keys and things like that as well? And 2, second part of the question, is it usable now?  

[00:43:53] Unknown:

Number 1, no. You can't. Just Bitcoin seeds, 12 or 24 word seeds,   which can use as passwords as well, by the way, guys. So technically speaking, if you're happy to use a 12 or 24   word   or set of words as a password Okay. Which is very secure, then, yes, you can. So it's   just 12 24 words or Nosta private keys nsecs.   The second question, are you asking, is the key manager function available now, or were you specifically asking about in relation to the first question about passwords?  

[00:44:23] Unknown:

Is key manager available now? Yeah.  

[00:44:26] Unknown:

Has been for quite a while.   Okay. Since,   2,   oh, god. 2, 3 o or something. It's been maybe at least 6 months now. Oh, really? Have to check it up. So I don't sound like I completely don't know what I'm talking about. It's been quite a while.  

[00:44:42] Unknown:

How would it work? I'd just   fire it up, and then   there's, like, a separate bit where I'd store these additional keys.   I wouldn't have to actually   put on my normal PIN and I'd put, like, a separate PIN? Or,  

[00:44:55] Unknown:

like, how would No. So yeah. So good good question, actually.   And I'm still scanning down our release notes to find where   that I think it was 210, which is quite a while ago. Okay. Quickly trying to scan.   Oh my god.   Yes.   210 came out May 8, 2023.   So you're only 12 months late, mate. For fuck's sake. Just goes to show listeners that he doesn't listen to a fucking word I say on this show. I listen to some of them. It's enough.  

[00:45:24] Unknown:

So, yeah. How would it work? Okay. So our implementation for for those more technical, this is basically BIP 85. We call it key manager. Oh, it's just child seed stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, fucking hell. You banged on about that for ages. I got confused. I thought there was, like, a separate feature where I could go in, and I could have all my passwords   and all of my other keys and stuff. So, like, rather than going in and, like, doing my PIN code and then, okay, that accesses   my Bitcoin. I do, like, have, like, a separate bit where I could type something in, and there would be a store of passwords and other keys and other bits and pieces. That's what I thought it was. So  

[00:46:02] Unknown:

We could do that, and we have considered it. But when you think of the real world applications of anything other than kind   of Nosta NSX or Bitcoin seeds, So let's alright. Let's say you wanna put your your Twitter password in your passport.   Okay. Great. But if that's, like, the main place that you keep it, passport's offline. It's air gapped. What are you gonna do? Like, pull it up and then Type it down, mate. You you probably would. Yeah. That was a bad example.   But do do you know what I mean? Like, most normal people with their head screwed on, they're not gonna wanna do that, especially if they've got a secure password because it's   a headache to try and type it in. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It because you can't put yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it'd be good, like,   maybe it's, like, just a an additional backup that you you call upon   in a complete doomsday scenario or something like that. I can definitely see the use case there, and This isn't a a no or never.  

It's just a a not right now.  

[00:46:58] Unknown:

I get you. I got confused. See, I have been listening to you about child seeds, and I've said many times I actually don't like them. And you said, well, you're an idiot. You don't understand. But that's what I thought. Mhmm. Yeah. So, I can't believe it's been a year already. I surprised myself that I was as me saying, it's been, like, 6 months. Just goes to show how fast time goes in in Bitcoin.  

[00:47:17] Unknown:

Okay. So questions.   I always try and stoke a bit of engagement   admittedly to last minute most of the time and don't give people enough time to think about it. But this time, did it today with a couple of hours. And thank you for the retweet as well, mate, over on Twitter.   We get loads of people popping in with questions, which is very exciting. So thank you to all those people who got involved. Really wanna try and make this a bigger part of the show. So before we dive into these, like, if you're listening to this and there's burning questions about the latest topic in Bitcoin, the latest news piece, or, you know, probably more kind of suited to me will be privacy,   coin management,   questions about your setup, that sort of thing, feel free to just tag one of us on Twitter or Nostra and get involved in the next part of the show. We'd love to to make this kind of a a regular feature in the show. I don't know about you, Max. Yeah. Definitely.  

So let's get started. God, these usernames, man. Z w a r t w I t, zwartit?   Yeah. Zwartwit   on Nosta said,   best alternatives to samurai wallet. I'm gonna throw this one to you, mate.   Slim pickings now.  

[00:48:24] Unknown:

It really is.   Obviously, Sparrow, if you're gonna use   desktop. But for mobile,   Stackwall, it's not bad. I've used it a bit. I'm just going on, like, what I've actually used because, otherwise, not really fair.   Envoy, I do use, and that's pretty good.   Slim pickings, mate. That's to be honest, that's all I really use. I don't mess around with anything else. I still use samurai. I mean  

[00:48:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Me too. Yeah. So  

[00:48:55] Unknown:

but I I I understand why people are asking that. I don't know. It was so far ahead, and it had such fucking brilliant tools   that it's hard to really just come up with a replacement.   I do really like Envoy, and I have been suggesting to a lot of friends to use that just because it's really simple, and I like how easy you've made it to do labeling,   which I think really helps. Like, the coin control stuff is very, very good in there, and it's kind of idiot proof. So   that's been my suggestion   going forward recently.  

[00:49:29] Unknown:

Yeah. It was obviously gonna say the same thing. You know, built into,   intuitive   coin control, connect to your own nodes. Hard to fuck it up. Yeah. It always a great option, and I'm generally not just saying that because I've helped build it. It is a good option. Obviously, in terms of privacy features, it's complete. Samurai Wallet is completely unparalleled.   That's a very tall bar. Stack Wallet, also fantastic.   I believe,   Cakewallet have been making some some moves recently as well. They're gonna implement   silent payments, which we're gonna kind of cover off in a in a subsequent question, which is, an upcoming privacy improvement to the wallet space. So Mhmm. Probably would be those 3 if I was, pushed to to give an answer.  



[00:50:10] Unknown:

Just before we move on, one thing that I can't help thinking, and I just wanna put a warning out there in case this happens to any listeners. There's been a lot of sharing of   APKs   of samurai's most recent   release.   And I would just say   20 users who are thinking, oh, I might run that,   and I'm just gonna get it off some random Telegram channel or that someone shares with me. I'd just   say probably   be careful and think twice about doing that kind of thing because you don't necessarily know   what's been done with it, and   I don't know. It just it worries me a little bit.  



[00:50:53] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I would I would go even further and say just don't do it. Unless you know the person that's sending it to you and you've kind of met them in person and you've got already built that trust, I just wouldn't bother. Or you've literally you've got the APK downloaded on a phone that you own,  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

own. Yeah. But, yeah, I just it worries me, and Urban was saying the same, and you reiterate it. Just yeah. It's it's not worth the risk.  

[00:51:20] Unknown:

Yeah. Next question comes from Zayka Boy,   also on.   Any chance releasing code so some clever person can decentralize Whirlpool?   The code is out there.   Obviously, the GitHub repo was   taken down, but obviously it's open source code. So I'm sure there's a lot of local copies dotted around the world.   I believe   there is a website called free samurai.com   that has basically   links to anything samurai related. It's got the indictment. It's got code. It's got all sorts.   Once again, you kind of need to   verify that sort of stuff. So just be careful.   But I believe that that website's got a lot of links to to code and stuff. Mhmm. Whether the Whirlpool stuff on there, I'm just having a quick scan. I'm not actually seeing the   Whirlpool code, but like I say, it's open source. So I bet you there's   probably close to a 100 copies out there. But for obvious reasons, I'd imagine most public facing people are not   Yeah. Are not forthcoming. Oh, I tell a lie. Yeah. There there's links to Whirlpool GitHub stuff. But once again, make sure you kinda verify where these are coming from and who's hosting them. But there are links there. The crucial point here isn't finding the code. It's finding someone brave enough to or clever enough to to run it in such a way that isn't gonna put them very much in the firing line.  

Next question from Bitter 21, also on Nosta. What's with the Wasabi update conjoined to your wallet? I thought they were discontinuing   functionality.   We've already covered that one. Thanks for your question. Jackie Huddle on Twitter.   Trade offs of lightning versus on chain around the aspects of privacy and channel versus UTXO management.   Many tools that were available yesterday are now gone, which requires users to either migrate to other tools and or learn how to run a lightning node, for example.   Many recent changes.   Okay. There's a lot in there.  

Yeah. Just a bit. Yeah. Maybe I'll just focus on because he's asked, like, 3 questions, so he's being greedy. But I'll focus on the lightning side of things.   We've said it many times.   Self sovereign lightning is not easy. In today's regulatory environment, I believe that if you're not gonna go through the kind of pain of building a resilient setup and running your own lighting channels, then you're kind of essentially setting yourself up for   headache further down the line. We've seen Phoenix pull out of the US already and stop serving those customers   very soon. So when you're taking these kind of semi trusted relationships with Lightning service providers,   you're giving up some privacy in the first place. You're also kind of putting all of your eggs in one basket because if they are impelled to or decide to pull out of your jurisdiction and force close your channels,   you've immediately lost access to the Lightning Network. Now you may be fine with that trade off and think, yeah. Well, I'll just deal with that problem when I get to it, which is fair enough. But if you want to build a more resilient one where you are much more self sovereign, then you've gotta go through a lot of hurdles. You've got to run a node. You've got to learn how to manage channels, albeit the channel management for for most users and the burden that that gives is a little bit of overblown in my opinion. Unless you're kind of doing frequent large payments, then the channel management overhead is fairly limited.  

But, yeah, you've gotta maintain hardware. You gotta make sure it has power. You keep it fed with Internet. Make sure stable. Don't run it on a Raspberry Pi. All of the usual stuff you probably heard before.   It's not easy, but   it can be very private. You know, know, the Lightning Network, if you're running your own channels, doing your own route path finding, etcetera, it's very, very hard, if not impossible, to to trace where a lightning payment comes from. Except for receiving. Well yeah. So I was coming on to that, but payments,   as a sender, you've got pretty good default privacy. Yeah. As a receiver, every single lightning invoice that you share tells the rest of the network basically where your node is in the graph and the UTXOs   that are funding   those channels   even if they are, quote, unquote, private channels that we know nowadays that they're not really that private and can be probed very, very easily. So, obviously, somebody that generates an invoice on your node can then   see the UTXOs that are associated with the lightning channel, and then they've got an on chain starting point then to try and see, oh, where did those coins come from. So receivership privacy, lightning, not great. There's many tools sorry. There's many proposals   that are in various different states of developments,   that plan to kind of mitigate these sorts of risks, things like trampoline payments, rendezvous routing. There's there's all sorts of stuff, blinded paths.  

Obviously, if we get that, there'll be a big step in the right direction. But as with most of these proposals and the decentralized nature of how Lightning operates   when those are are in place is,   anybody's guess.  

[00:56:03] Unknown:

In summary,   sending good, receiving   very bad. Great TLDR. Yeah. I know we've got 1,000,000, but can I just go slightly deeper on this? So for people who are receiving,   would the advice be if you have the technical chops for it and you can be bothered and you've got fuck all else going on in life and you wanna run a lightning node?   For sending, very good. But if you wanna receive,   what would be the advice so that you could do this   in the least   shit way? Would it actually be to go to a custodial one and then straight out so you at least have one hop, or is there some sort of clever   way of doing it?  



[00:56:46] Unknown:

Yeah. Difficult one.   The default answer that I would've gave up to about a month ago   would be make sure you've got good UTXO hygiene by using according to a service like Whirlpool before and after lightning channel closes so that even, okay. Great. I'm not really bothered if somebody sees that my lightning channel was open from a post mix UTXO. Great. They learned jack shit, and they'll see it go into post mix afterwards. Obviously, we don't have that luxury anymore. The landscape has very much changed.   So, yeah, you'll never hear me pushing people towards custodial services. I know some people do it as a as a quick hop to try and break some transaction graphs or hop graphs, however, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. I I don't have a good answer for it at the moment. I'm very much in a position where I'm reassessing and reevaluating   my approach to a lot of things.  



[00:57:34] Unknown:

Me too.  

[00:57:35] Unknown:

Speaking of which, there's a great segue. Gambleer on Twitter says, now that we're missing some familiar Conjur services, what's the best way for privacy   using Lightning is the one? I think we've just covered that, unless you've got anything to add, mate. No. No. I don't.   Okay. Monero UK on Twitter. What are silent payments on Bitcoin? Opinions, yay, nay, or meh?   Okay. So, yeah, silent payments,   have just been merged   in some way, shape, or form to the BIP list, I believe. I believe they're not in core just yet. The TLDR here is that silent payments is   an iteration   of what we all know and love in bit 47   payment codes with some improvements and different trade offs. The TLDR,   they use Taproot now, and   they are also possible with watch only wallets.  

And there is one other   oh, yeah. You don't need to do the notification transaction, which was a a bit of a hurdle for for most people that did bit 47 stuff through samurai or   Spiral Wallet. Admittedly,   although   those piece of software did use a an on chain notification transaction, which obviously come with it, an an additional UX   hurdle and fee. That was done so to kind of provide reassurance in terms of backups and ensure that recovery was quite easy and seamless. The developments here with silent payments afford the same kind of benefits without having to do that notification transaction, and that's achieved through the magic of Taproot again. So for those that are thinking, what the fuck is bit 47? What's this guy talking about? A silent payment, is kind of a static reusable address that you can post on your Twitter, your LinkedIn, your Facebook,   or get tattooed on your forehead,   and it allows anybody that's paying you with a silent payment   compatible wallet   to basically just enter that   single static address that you share with everybody   and to be able to then generate unique addresses known only between you as the sender and then as them as the recipient. So anybody else looking on chain would just see kind of a Taproot transaction, and they would not be able to tie it back to   the single static payment code sorry, silent payment link that you posted on your Twitter. So very cool. There there's another big benefit here over,   Bit47   in that. With Bit47,   if I wanted to send to you anonymously,   Max,   using Bit 47,   I couldn't do it. You'd know that that payment came from my payment,   which for you and I, we know each other. That's great. But if I wanted to donate   privately, I'd have to kind of make a unique pay NIM that's not tied to the q and a NIM and then send from there so that you'd be able to not tie it back to my original pay NIM, if that makes sense.  

With silent payments, that's also fixed as well.   Not   all roses,   don't get me wrong, some great improvements here, and I'm very excited about this. There are some scanning overheads   due to the nature of how these addresses are derived and detected   by compatible wallets. There is, additional scanning that needs to take place,   which in fairness, if you're running your own full node that is gonna inevitably ship with a compatible kind of silent payments index   won't be a problem. I think the main problem here from scanning is gonna be with light clients,   the severity of which is not very clear at the moment. I've seen a couple of screenshots of people testing with Cake Wallet, and it seems to be   not ideal. But, you know, it's the very first implementation, and I'm sure there's gonna be some big improvements.  

But if you're using your Bitcoin wallet, it's backed by your own node, which you should be by now Mhmm. Then that's basically nullified because your node's doing that in the background for you, and you don't kind of   have to worry about that sort of shit. So very exciting development. We've all we've already got 2 wallets here. Cakewallets in alpha, I believe. And there was another one I announced just this week, which is just a a brand new wallet focused solely on silent payments. I think it's called Silentium,   which is a   progressive web app. It's not an application as such. You just go to to the website, and I'll have to dig it out. And you can just have a wallet in your web browser, which you can then save to your home screen. Again, probably a very early proof of concept, but looks pretty cool. So I, am very excited to to see this added to more wallets because aside from the scanning piece, which I'm hoping can be kind of improved, this is a a big win for noninteractive   payments. Mhmm. This is what we've been waiting for in lightning, basically, but this is kind of the on chain version. So no more having to run a BTPC server if you just want tips and stuff like people to send you you money without any direct interaction. Obviously, BTCP is great. And if you've got a storefront and things like that, you need more infrastructure like that. But if you it's just a case of you for the show wanting to receive tips, and the only way to do that easily would be like bit 47 with some of the trade offs we talked about, or you'd run a BCP server and have all a headache of running that infrastructure. Once silent payments are are kind of widely used by most wallets, you can just post a QR code or, you you know, the silent payment so I don't know what they're calling it actually. A silent payment address, I guess. And people could just paste that in and then generate unique, unlimited amount of unique Taproot addresses and just start sending to you completely anonymously.  



[01:02:50] Unknown:

I think you might have already said this, but I was distracted because my Telegram was pinging off with mister Crown asking me a million questions. So fucking hell, mister Crown. Always interrupting things. Did you mention about whether there is or there is not a notification transaction?  

[01:03:05] Unknown:

There is not with silent payments, and that's one of the the key improvements here. So previously, with bit 47,   if I'd not paid you before, I'd have to send you 2 transactions.   One notification transaction, which kind of encodes the information that we both need for,   in the event of recovery. It's kinda like a shared secret. It helps with recovery and also enables   us to generate those private addresses between the 2 of us, which if I just wanted to tip you, you know, $25 and I've gotta do it twice, now it just cost me $50 because of the transaction fees.   Don't have to deal with silent payments.  

It's kind of somebody gave a great analogy on today.   It was think of it like this.   I write a message on a piece of paper. It's in a language that only you and I understand, Max. I love language.   I love language. I put it in a bottle, put a cork in it, and I throw it into the ocean. Mhmm. If anybody else finds that bottle with that message on, which the analogy here is that that is, the UTXO that I'm sending you. If they find that, it's useless to them because they can't read the language. But you have enough information in your silent payment wallet to be able to kind of decrypt and read that message   and basically make that UTXO yours.  



[01:04:21] Unknown:

That is a good analogy. So my understanding with the bit 47 is that notification   transaction,   only the 2 of you would be the same thing. Only the 2 of you would be able to derive addresses   because of that first notification   transaction. So there would just be an unlimited amount that you could send through. So this somehow does it   without that notification   transaction,   and it's like an encrypted thing that is useless to anyone else. Is there a obvious  

[01:04:48] Unknown:

trade off? Because that sounds like to me, I'm like, well, that's fucking amazing. There must be where's the catch? Yeah. I think the main one that I have understood so far is just this scanning thing for for light clients because Okay. You essentially   if you're,   a silent payment receiver, you have to check every single Taproot output in every single transaction.   You need to run, like, fulcrum or something to be Kind of. Yeah. I believe they're gonna there's gonna be, like, a a unique index for it to make it faster. The initial implementation, obviously, that doesn't exist yet. So it is, like, more of a manual scan. But end state, I think it that that scanning thing is gonna be a nothing burger. It already is if you run your own node. So  

[01:05:28] Unknown:

Okay. Brilliant. That's actually a really cool bit of news.  

[01:05:32] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.   So, yeah, to to answer your question, Monero UK, you said opinions, yay, nay, or meh. Definitely a yay from me. Yay from me as well. K. Next, we have our boy, Sollex, on Twitter. He says, I have a ledger, and somehow my SATs,   nice and decent, yes I am, perfectly KYC'd, ID, and 3 d scan on my face,   all disappeared after they asked me for my seed phrase via mail. Does that now make me complicit in their crimes when those sats are used for a terrorist attack?   Yes. You're going to jail, mate. Back up.  

[01:06:06] Unknown:

Obviously, that was a joke, and I hope you don't go to jail. So, Alex. Obviously, that was a joke from me as well, but the reality is, yes, you are going to jail.   Don't pick up the soap, mate.  

[01:06:17] Unknown:

Atfaines,   said silent payment versus pain in. Hopefully, you are listening for the last 15 minutes of the show. Yep. Jackie Huddle on Twitter. Again, you greedy bastard.   Dangers of in person Bitcoin meetups and social chats like Telegram.   Well, I guess just stating the obvious, they are public places, 1 in person, 1 online. Be careful what you say. Be careful who you give personal information to. Don't take your hardware wallet with you. Most specifically on Telegram, be shielded about the information you share. Anybody that DMs you out of the blue is a scammer and will try and take your seed phrase out of you. Yep. Yeah. Just be guarded. Like, assume that everybody is fed or wants to steal from you or both.  

[01:07:00] Unknown:

Yeah. They walk among us, both feds and, obviously,   scammers as well. We had, today, very unfortunately,   in the   Pleb minor   mafia, someone was scammed.   Someone had put a deal in there. Someone parted with quite a few sats, and sadly, it has been scammed.   Fuck. It caused all sorts of drama, and my babe, John, got very upset about it. We've, had some arguments in there. People have left. It's been all very messy, and,   basically, a lot of this stuff can be avoided by just being overly overly cautious and checking and double checking. And if you think something's a deal or you think someone's legit,   check with trusted people, check with as many trusted people as you can. And if you ever feel like you're under pressure or someone's putting pressure on you time wise,   this is almost certainly a scam. Everyone's a scammer.  



[01:07:55] Unknown:

With that said, I gave a very doom answer   that is needed. But Bitcoin meetups   and Telegram communities are awesome places if you interact with them with the right mindset and the right kind of frame of mind and be wary of everybody. I learned 90% of everything I know about Bitcoin through stuff like that. So don't let what I just said or what we just said put you off from interacting in those communities because they are very, very useful, and you will learn a hell of a lot. Yeah. A a nice analogy here would be don't be scared off by an orgy. Could be a lot of fun. Just wear a condom.  

[01:08:29] Unknown:

Good analogy?  

[01:08:30] Unknown:

That just blown me away. Yeah. I was lost for words.  

[01:08:35] Unknown:

Just use precaution.  

[01:08:37] Unknown:

Yes. Be careful. Maybe maybe wear 2 if it's an orgy.  

[01:08:41] Unknown:

Double bag. Atbtclimbo  

[01:08:44] Unknown:

on Twitter,   are you looking at XMR more closely in light of recent events? I realize you work for a BTC hardware wallet company, but I think it's high time we all consider alternate means of transacting privately.   Appreciate all your work, q and a. Well, I appreciate you getting in touch, mister Limbo.   Yes is the short answer to that question.   Absolutely.   If it isn't abundantly clear by now, if you've been listening to at least one of these shows that Max and I are not the typical   Bitcoin zealots that run around calling everything under the sun of shitcoin if it's not Bitcoin. Mhmm. I will use the right tool for the job. And if that means using a a Monero wallet, then, yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna use a Monero wallet. What about you, mate? Yeah. I've been playing around with it more and more. My views haven't changed in the sense of, like, where do I wanna store my value is still Bitcoin.  

[01:09:35] Unknown:

But if I want to use a tool and it matters   and for privacy reasons,   I think that Monero is very, very good. I was very comfortable with my previous setup.   Samurai   had such incredible tools that it was not something that I really worried too much about because I had tools that worked, but, you know, we can't use that at the moment. So the options are either   bend over to the state and say, well, okay. Fine. I'll comply.   You scared me enough that I'll comply, and I'm too scared of all the   Bitcoin zealots saying, oh, we were issued coin that I just won't transact.   No. If you need to be private, then Monero is a very good option.  

There are swapping services   out   there. You can swap in. You can swap out. There are some caveats. There are some issues that you can have there. I go in to great detail on this subject with Urban Hacker.   That pod actually, that pod is gonna be released before this one. So if you're listening now, you can go back and listen to,   my conversation with Urban Hacker. He's been using Monero for a long time. He's knowledgeable on it. He's been giving me some tips. And then, obviously, our good friend, Seth, for privacy,   has lots of tips, and,   he's been helping me as well. So, yes,   it's important. It's a great tool. If people wanna have go and winch and call us in pure, well, that's fine. You can fuck off. Plus 1. Jackie Huddle, once again, from Twitter, you greedy boy. This is the last one from him. Yeah. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. We're gonna have to start charging for these. Yeah. I was just gonna say, do you know what we're gonna do next episode is   you've got a boost for this because a good idea. There's so many. There's been more that's been coming in on my Telegram as well because people have not seen the fucking cutoff time. We've got so many. This could be,  

[01:11:28] Unknown:

like 2 or 3 shows worth. Which is very good. I don't wanna discourage people from doing that. I love to get in touch. Yeah. It's fucking awesome.  

[01:11:35] Unknown:

Do some boosts. We're gonna have to prioritize somehow. Yeah. Oh, here's a question. Tying this back to this silent payment stuff. Well, actually, bit 47   do it as well. But is there a way that someone could attach messages   to silent payments   or bit 47   if they are a lightning   disrespector?  

[01:11:54] Unknown:

Oof. Having never used a silent payment, well, it's difficult to say. We are very,   early days.   I would suggest anything's possible. I can have to do some homework on that one. Not sure. Okay. I I would guess so. Yeah. Okay. Well, in that case, podcasting 2.0,  

[01:12:09] Unknown:

if anyone hasn't used it or needs any help, you can reach out. But, yeah, send us a boost, and we will cover them on the next one.  

[01:12:17] Unknown:

You know, it will be cool. You could send a silent payment and embed an op return in the transaction as well just to piss off, Ocean.   Lukey boy. Ask you a question in the op return, so it's etched into the blockchain forever.   Well, technically, it's not in the blockchain before anybody at me.   But yeah.   Jackie Huddle,   practicalities of join market slash jam. So   funny that somebody would ask this, actually. It's been an an ongoing joke, basically, since this monthly show started about,   Yeah. Have you tried join market yet?   No. And then he'd ask me, and I'd be like, nope. Mainly because we had no incentive to do so because we were very happy in our Whirlpool bubble because it was the best tool for the job, and we had no reason to look elsewhere. The feature structure was great. The UX was great. It just worked, and it was seamless.  

Now, obviously, for all of the reasons that we've been talking about over the last couple of shows, we have been left with no choice but to look for alternatives if you want to transact   with some level of privacy on chain. Mhmm. So, yes, I've been giving German market a whirl, more specifically through the Jam kind of polished interface.   Interface is good. Great to see that people have been working on this, and it it's a damn sight better than the old QT graphical user interface that used to exist that kinda blew my head off when I first tried to look at it. Was that join inbox?   No. That's a command line thing that,   OpenOMS did. I never really got to grip to that. But, again, Jam is is worlds apart from that,   in terms of, like, usability.  



[01:13:51] Unknown:

Because that's what I used to open on sat next to me and was like, oh, yeah. It's really simple. I built this, and this is what you do. And I was like, are we in the fucking matrix here? Like, it worked. It was it was good, but it was like, yeah. I'll just keep using Whirlpool. Thanks, mate.  

[01:14:06] Unknown:

Initial findings,   obviously, there's no kind of automatic re or free remixing.   So you pay for every mix. You've gotta be very, very careful about what you do with your fees and how you construct each, of these mixes if you're coming in as a taker, which is kinda somebody who wants to coinjoin with other people who are makers that have basically just put their Bitcoin out into the ether to say, hey. I'm here ready for coin joints for a fee.   Be   very, very careful. I've spoke to multiple people that have also been in the same situation that tried joint markets since the whole wasabi and samurai stuff had closed down, and I've got burned with significant amounts of sats.   I too also massively overpaid for my first mix because I didn't fully understand   what the UI was telling me   and kind of the implications of the decisions I was making when I was entering the first collaborative transaction.  

Luckily, the fee market was low. If we were under Sapa buy, I would be probably still be in tears right now. So a painful lesson. So be very careful with the fees. Make sure you read the documentation. But the documentation. But the other thing for me as well is with samurai with Whirlpool, 5 in, 5 out, or more recently with those search cycles that they had, you know, up to 8 participants. It was dead easy to be like, okay. Great. I had one input there. I've got one output, and I'm one of these 5, 6, 7, 8 people. I then remix 5 times. Okay. Great. My am on set is this. With your market, like, I have got no idea how to work that stuff out. I look at some of the transactions. I'm like, yeah. Great. There's loads of inputs. There's loads of outputs. Some of the outputs are of the same size, so it's got I've got some anonymity set there. I just have no idea how to work out what level of privacy I'm getting for the fees I'm spending.   Again, I'm I'm humble enough to admit that's probably my own naivety, and I just need to spend more time looking at it. But these are kind of my first impressions of, you know, a user that's kind of hopped in with sort of preconceived ideas of what a good coin join is, and these are my experiences. So gonna continue to run with it. But there are also implications where as a taker, you kind of fully expose   your coins both on the input and the output side to the maker because they're the ones that are kind of, I guess, probably the wrong term, but coordinating the transaction. So the maker knows,   you know, alright. You had these 3 inputs, and you've now got these 2 outputs. So you're not private from the maker. So you either need to do multiple mixes,   expensive,   or you need to do multiple mixes   as a taker and also multiple mixes as a maker as well so that people come to coinjoin with you. The problem with being a maker is that, number 1, you've gotta sit around and wait for them. And number 2, if you want to be taken seriously and have any chance of people wanting to come to you and do collaborative transactions with you, you've gotta use Fidelity Bonds. So then you've gotta lock up Bitcoin.  

And, you know, it the the buyer's chances are just getting higher and higher and higher with everything I'm saying. So And it's gonna be a reasonable amount as well? Yeah. It's weighted. Yeah. So I think it's, like, 4 to 1 or something like that. Again, don't quote me on that, but you've gotta basically lock up a lot more than you   want to put up to   be available to be mixed with, I believe. But, again, I haven't tested that side of things yet. Because my understanding is, like, if you're a taker, you sort of go through multiple buckets or rounds.  

[01:17:21] Unknown:

There's, like, 5 different buckets, and you can go through Yeah. And they have different names like apricot or something. There's something like that. I can't remember. Yep. And then, yeah, if you wanna be a maker,   then you can effectively get free or, like, earn a bit from your mixing.   But as you say, you've gotta lock up, like, 4 or 5 x, what you can mix with. And then so you've gotta lock up quite a lot. And, obviously, the whole time that you're using it,   it's hot.   And so it's just kind of I don't know. Like you say, it's you just have to get to grips with it a little bit. But for me, I'm like, I don't know. It  

[01:17:58] Unknown:

we were spoiled. Basically, we were spoiled. That's Absolutely. Yeah. I very much took the samurai Whirlpool ecosystem for granted now that I've had this joint market experience. And I I don't wanna shit on the joint market experience. Like, we were talking about building stuff that's resilient   and more decentralized. The joint market at the moment is the best embodiment that we have in terms of Bitcoin privacy of that. So I don't wanna take anything away from people who are working on this. Once again, to repeat myself, I'm more than humble enough to admit that some of my misunderstandings or opinions here are probably   just exactly that, a a lack of understanding. I just need more time to to kind of grok everything. I'm very much coming in with a Whirlpool   lens to look at this. Just Yeah. Quickly before we move on from this, just wanna go back to the fees because because I mentioned that they are high, and I'm not speaking out of turn there. But I just wanna be very clear. There's 2 fees. There's   the fee that you pay to the maker if you are a taker. So that's like if you're a maker, Max, and I come, and you're you're saying, hey. I've got a 1,000,000 sat here. You can come and coin joint with me if you want. Those fees are very, very, very, very, very low in the most part. Like, we're talking in the orders of, like, 100 of sats. It's not a lot at all. The main source of the fees for takers in joy market is the minor fees because   you are the one that's footing the bill for everybody else in that transaction.  

Now at 1 Zap per byte, that's probably not a lot of money. You know, you you're talking maybe, I don't know, 8, 10, 12, 15 inputs, something like that, depending on how you configure it. It could be more, I suppose. But you're paying for all those inputs as well. So if you start jacking a fee up to 50 sats per byte, 100 sats per byte, shit, we've even seen 500 sats per byte in recent months. It quickly becomes prohibitively too expensive to even consider taking part in transactions like that because you're talking 100 of 1,000, if not millions of sats just in minor fees. And I don't know what what the fix is for that,   unfortunately.  



[01:19:49] Unknown:

We'll keep learning. We'll keep learning. Indeed.  

[01:19:51] Unknown:

This next one, you'd sent it to me   as a DM, and it kind of I read it a lot. Yeah. I read it a little bit tired. I was   running a little while to bed, and I was almost dozing off myself, and I just blew my head up. But I think I've kind of got an answer for it. So it's from, Anon on Telegram. How can I calculate the fee difference between different multisicks?   2 of 8, is that bigger cost than a 3 out of 4 or opposite?   I heard that even with Taproot, this can be expensive if not taken care. And then in brackets, he's got bitpack.   I've got no idea what bitpack is. Costs more with signatures even though it uses TaprootAddress,   I think. So how can I know check fix that for my f.e? Again, I don't know what f.e is. Sparrow multisig.  

I'm gonna leave the second part of that question because there's a lot of words in there. I don't know what Bitpack is. I don't know what FE is in referral to.   So I'll answer the simple bit is, how can I calculate the fee difference with different multisigs? Is the 2 of 8 bigger than the cost of a 3 or 4, or is it the opposite?   Your main drivers for fees and transactions is the data, how much data you're writing into the blockchain for each transaction.   The main kind of contributors to that are number of inputs,   number of outputs that are being created, and then how many signatures.  

The inputs and outputs are, I believe, the biggest bit. And, obviously, you you didn't mention that here. But, you know, if you're spending   a 1,000,000 sats and it's coming from a single coin, then it's gonna cost you much less to send that in minor fees than if you're sending a million sats from 50 coins because there's so much more data and signatures, etcetera, being written to the blockchain to authorize you to kind of send that coin. So that's the main driver here. And I know you didn't mention that, but it's important to kind of reference that. And then the next thing is signatures. So you mentioned the 2 of 8 and a 3 or 4, presumably, just as an example.   My understanding is there's no additional burden even if it's, like, 8 possible signers. You're only paying for the ones that go on to the blockchain. So in your scenario, the 3 or 4 will be more expensive because you're putting 3 signatures   per input onto the blockchain.  

It's kind of a little bit above my pay grade to go any deeper, and it's it's getting late, and I'm kind of flagging a little bit. But hopefully, that, answers your question a little bit.   Last one. Of course, it would be this username.   Atb000024.   From Telegram, more general, but with Whirlpool currently on hiatus and joint market not seeming too great, which projects Bips in Bitcoin seem promising for increased privacy? Well, I think we've kinda covered that. We're just done a deep dive on joint market, which isn't to be written off. It's just kind of more research required for me personally.   What projects and bips, silent payments, we just did a deep dive on that. Very excited about that. Outside of that would be kind of the the lightning   improvements   that we also   loosely refer to that improve the receivership side, of the lightning network. But outside of that, do you know what? Like, on chain Bitcoin privacy is looking pretty fucking bleak right now if I'm just brutally honest.  



[01:22:56] Unknown:

Yeah.   One more question that's come in just   now. If you don't mind, I'll just cover this because it's a friend of the show, Paul.   Now that samurai website has been seized and the app removed from the Google Play Store, I'd imagine anyone who downloaded the app is on a list now. Just makes me think the next level of privacy involves a phone not connected to Google or Apple account.   You shouldn't be downloading   through the Google Play Store or Apple   for any Bitcoin stuff ideally.   Ideally,   you should be downloading an APK   and   doing this in a private manner, at least using a VPN   or tool or something.  

And, ideally, you should be using a NIM Phone, something like GrapheneOS.  

[01:23:42] Unknown:

Anything else to cover there, Q? No. Completely agree. And if you wanna learn about GrapheneOS, go to my website. I've got a full guide on installing it and all the useful apps that you can use as alternatives to what you would normally use day to day on your iPhone or your traditional   Android phone that is not running Graphene. Bitcoin.guide/grapheneos.   I  

[01:24:06] Unknown:

just Final final thing as you're talking about bitquano.guide.   Great website.   Love it, mate. But can you fucking sort out your SAS converter, please?   I knew this was a comment. It's really white. It's my it's my favorite. I use it almost   every single day to work out when I'm sending a payment. If someone quotes me in whatever, euro, dollar, pound, whatever, I'm like, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go on to my friend Bitcoin q and a's Bitcoin dot guide sats converter.   Here it is. Saved that into my favorites.   It doesn't fucking work.  

And it's been like this for   months now.  

[01:24:44] Unknown:

So it it's working right now. I've just loaded it. However,   yes. Okay. I haven't tested it today. So It's yeah. It's been patchy. The the reason it's been patchy, obviously, it pulls a price API   from   coingecko.com.   Mhmm. I'm on the free tier. Obviously, I ain't paying for that shit.   When their API gets overloaded, they throttle the free people, the free loaders like me, and that means that you just see a load of zeros. Right. So yeah. As a backup, by the way, if,   because I I've noticed it been going down sometimes.   Bitbo.io   also has a converter.  

It's like a little calculator sign in the top right of their page. That's my backup one just for quick conversions if you need it. Okay. And, also, just wanna stress, by the way, that or the convert convert thing that Max is talking about, bitcoin.guide/convert,   I didn't build that. It's an open source tool built by an awesome guy called Pedro.   I just kind of forked it because it was open source. It just made it suit my site. So big shout out to him. You know, I'm not the brains behind that one. Can you do that with open source stuff?   Depends who you are, and if you're happy to be a communist.  



[01:25:52] Unknown:

You can take useful stuff that people have built and then just, like, make it better   and build on it and, like, share it, and everyone can use that sounds really nice. That sounds like a really good idea.   Yeah. It sounds like   everyone should do that, especially in the Bitcoin space. Like, everyone should actually adopt that. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree.  

[01:26:11] Unknown:

I wasn't gonna mention this,   because I didn't know when it was gonna be released, but he has released it while we've been recording. So we've done a lot of talk about silent payments today. Seth, for privacy, has built a quick website on this, which basically just everything that you need to know both, at a high level and very technical about how silent payments work, what they're useful for, etcetera, etcetera. So if you're interested, head to silent payments.xyz.  

[01:26:38] Unknown:

Lovely.  

[01:26:39] Unknown:

Okay, mate. That was a fun one. I enjoyed the one. And Yeah. Wanna reiterate again, thank you so much for everybody boosting and getting involved with questions.   Would love to make,  

[01:26:49] Unknown:

every monthly show like this one. That was great fun. Yeah. I really enjoyed it as well. I liked that it was a bit more free flowing and just like It's actually a little bit more like we would just have a conversation in real life   without the pint.  

[01:27:03] Unknown:

Yes. Yeah. There would have been more than one as well in an hour and 40 minutes.  

[01:27:09] Unknown:

Very nice. Yeah. Thank you everyone who's been sending in the boost. For the next one, let's get some, boost in the questions as well. We appreciate you. And,   Q, get some sleep, mate.   And I'm now gonna make another cafeteria and get on with the editing.  

[01:27:26] Unknown:

Jesus. Oh, yeah. I take my hat off to your work ethic. But,   always a pleasure mate and, free samurai. Yeah. Free samurai.  

[01:29:00] Unknown:

Thanks for listening. I really hope you enjoyed that. If you get value from this show,   please do consider sharing this with friends or family.   It all helps us grow. And if you haven't yet checked our ungovernablemisfits.com,   go and have a look. We've got articles.   We've got podcasts,   clothing,   artwork, and much more.   If you have any questions about the topics we've discussed   or you have any other topics you'd like us to cover,   you can boost us, you can tweet us.   I think you can us, but you have to do that through q and a because I can't be arsed.   Catch you on the next one.