The Vance Crowe Podcast

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In this  episode of the Vance Crowe Podcast, we dive into the complexities of balancing business opportunities and personal commitments with Michael Ring, a cattle farmer and writer. Michael shares his journey of managing multiple ventures, from farming to writing, and the challenges of saying no to lucrative opportunities. He discusses the importance of setting boundaries and valuing relationships, both in business and personal life, while navigating the pressures of success. The conversation also touches on the nuances of pricing work, the opportunity costs involved, and the struggle to maintain family time amidst growing demands.

We also explore deeper philosophical themes, such as the concept of the daemon, a guiding inner voice, and how it influences decision-making. Michael shares his insights on the importance of creativity, innovation, and the role of aesthetics in shaping our future. The discussion extends to the practical aspects of farming, including sustainable cattle grazing practices and the economic dynamics of the agricultural industry. Michael's reflections on personal growth, the impact of AI, and the future of energy and Bitcoin provide a thought-provoking perspective on the intersection of technology, agriculture, and personal development.

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1. 00:00:01 The Challenge of Success and Saying No
2. 00:06:00 Writing and Personal Growth
3. 00:10:00 Introducing Michael Ring and His Work
4. 00:18:00 Navigating Grief and Personal Loss
5. 00:30:00 Mechanical Skills and Learning by Doing
6. 00:40:00 Parenting Philosophies and Challenges
7. 00:52:00 Communication Styles and Feedback
8. 01:00:00 The Impact of AI and Future Technologies
9. 01:10:00 Commodity Trading and Market Dynamics
10. 01:24:00 Legacy Interviews and Family Stories
11. 01:32:00 The Future of Energy and Bitcoin
12. 01:48:00 The Daemon and Personal Guidance

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[00:00:01] Unknown:

As you get more successful,   there's always   something else that is shiny and to go after. And he he equates it to women. He he's like, there's always this woman in a red dress that comes by and distracts you. And the thing about being successful is   that not only   are there more women in the red dress going by, but they're also more attractive.   And so you you have to it gets so much harder to say no to all these business opportunities.   And so, like, I'm in a similar position already   where I've spent the last year saying yes to, like, as much as it was feasible to do.   And now I'm to the point where I have more repair work than I can do. We have cow stuff to do,   and we're building out,   some work. We're probably not   we we would probably like to build out, like, the equipment operating stuff, like the light excavating winter commercial snow removal.  

And   now I have to start saying, okay. We're gonna pick a direction   scale it back. And, like, this idea about the residency program, like, I absolutely have to scale some of those things back if I wanna do that.   And,   yeah, it's just it's so much harder to say no, especially when the the opportunities get better. When people just show up at your shop with with,   you know, 100 plus an hour work   all the time on and your phone's ringing, like, it's hard to turn that down constantly.  

[00:01:34] Unknown:

Is but is the issue maybe your prices aren't high enough, right, that you have too much work?  

[00:01:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Maybe.   But, also, there is there is a point at, like   no. That's probably fair because if you did just charge more, you would get less phone calls. But I'm also taking care of a lot of people I know, and I'm, like, on par with a lot of the other shops.   And I tell them,   like, I have other work to do before I will get to you with my farming and stuff. So it's not always faster either,   but they're just bringing it to me. I get a lot of weird problems, things that people are like, I don't know where to take this. You know?   But there's still people that I wanna look after because they a lot of them do a lot of things for me too  

[00:02:20] Unknown:

by by far. Yeah. That's the challenge of,   like, if people are hiring you because of your relationship,   then you have, like, an added dimension in the negotiation about price. Like, for me, with speaking,   right, like, it really comes down to what is the market rate and how busy am I and how unique is this thing. But then there's sometimes where you're like, I really do wanna go give this talk because I like this group, or I think that, you know, this is a person that was supportive of me   years ago when things weren't good. But, like, if I don't charge a high enough price, then I end up leaving my family or I'm gone. And I think, like, this is one of the new and hardest things about being a dad,   which is, like,   it's very easy for a culture to be like, oh, you should spend as much time as you can with your kids.  

Well, if I do that now, then I'm not building for the future.   And if I'm but I don't wanna not be around for them. So, like, it's this constant tension about, are my prices high enough? Am I doing this for my kids? It's not just like a   like, an ego thing of how much money can I make? It's it's like all these weird things you have to keep Opportunity cost. Right? Opportunity cost.  

[00:03:30] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah. I think that   I am going   to keep having to say no to things, and it's gonna   keep being harder.   And   I know I can do better with what I have, though. Like, it's not just that I have finite time and I'm filling it. Like, I actually could work harder, and I know it.   And I could be more present and impactful with my kids in the same time, and I know it.  

[00:04:00] Unknown:

When you say you could work harder, what do you mean?  

[00:04:04] Unknown:

I think that   as I,   Paul Graham has a good essay about this,   about working hard.   And, basically, he just says   that if you're a young person and you're working hard,   then and I don't remember all of this, so I'm I'm really paraphrasing here. But he says, if you're a young person and you think you're working hard, just know   that you don't know what working hard is yet.   You don't know what you don't know, and you have to keep looking for it. And some of that, in my case, also has to do with, I've built a lot of infrastructure in the last year or two years,   and there's all kinds of systems that I have to put in place. And once they're in place, then I can run them way harder.  

But right now, I'm still, like, dinking my way through it trying to figure it out.   And, until I get   them running more smoothly,   then I'm I'm giving up efficiency   by far. And then I could just be more earnest. I I know I could. There's something about the hard work that's,  

[00:05:07] Unknown:

difficult in mental work or, like, sales work. Because it used to be, like, when I worked for a paving company,   you know, like, you you just keep working. You keep lifting blocks. You keep shoveling things. You are working in this hotter weather. So, like, working harder was a very simple   equation. You knew exactly what it meant to work harder.   And, like, with mental work, it's it's not that way. It's, like, it's not easy to say that working harder is better or, like, I I don't know.  

[00:05:37] Unknown:

Yeah. I have definitely run into that, especially with writing   where you're like,   I know that the only way I'm gonna get better output of this project right now is if I go lay on the floor for ten minutes and take a nap. And it's gonna completely reset everything, and then I'm gonna crank this out in twenty minutes instead of two hours.   And then I'll be done with it, And I can walk away from it.  

[00:06:01] Unknown:

How has writing been for you, your new subs tech?  

[00:06:04] Unknown:

I don't think I'm very good at it yet, but I think I've gotten a lot of really good feedback both on what the writing is and how I can improve.   And so I always appreciate notes about it. It's been cool   because it's not just about   sharing the ideas   with   an audience. It's about actually taking the time   for me to spend time organizing those ideas for me and and fleshing them out and, like, figuring out what I believe. And and   being able to explain it to someone else means that I find the gaps in it   that that I previously didn't realize were there or at least some of them. It makes me less,   less I have less cognitive dissonance around some things.  



[00:06:47] Unknown:

Okay. I'm gonna break in here just to give a little bit of context.   We are in a conversation with a guy named Michael Ring. Michael has been a good friend of mine for nearly a decade now. He raises cattle. He's a writer. He even invites people out to his farm to give them a chance to get away from the stresses of regular life   and talk about some of the exciting things that they want to work on and explore in their lives.   So you're getting to hear Michael and I who don't normally get to talk. We both have three kids. We're married. We run businesses.   And because he stopped by, I decided, like, let's turn on the cameras and just have a conversation.  

So I'm really glad that you can be here for it. Michael writes,   on a, on a substack that he calls Ring Family Agriculture,   and he actually is the guy that I buy probably 90% of my beef from. And it just has to do with the way they raise their animals,   with how they butcher them, and just   I love it. And it's, it's a great product, and I love it. I don't know if he's selling it or not, but it's what I feed my family. And I thought that that might give you some context for this conversation. Of all the people that I could buy meat from,   Michael and his brother Joseph are the ones I choose to buy from most of the time. So we're gonna get back to that conversation in just a moment, but I wanted to talk about a class that I've been delivering that has become really popular. It's called interest based communications.  

And I wrote this class because my former business partner, Benjamin Anderson,   started a biotech firm, started hiring scientists and people to come work for him. And he said, man, will you create a class that would distill the things that I learned while I was working with you? And so I did.   And this class basically starts off with the fundamental foundation of interest based negotiating. How can I give you what you want and need so that you'll be much more willing to give me what I want and need? But then the class expands, and it teaches communication   skills like   how do you introduce yourself so that somebody else is gonna be interested and they ask good questions and you get to really put your best foot forward.  

Then we go into having better conversations. How do you ask questions that get people to want to open up, to be excited to tell you things?   Then we talk about conflict and how do you handle it when you find yourself in opposition to somebody else. And then we have an entire session   on negotiations in the wild. What goes on inside of an organization? When you're negotiating with a person and they represent some larger picture, how can you make sure you're thinking about this so that you effectively   get through what you need to get through?  

If you are interested in having me deliver this course   to your organization,   to your company,   then go to vancecrow.com   and fill out the contact form. This has been a new thing that I've just started recently doing. After I did it for Benjamin, a hedge fund here in Saint Louis hired me to teach it to their employees that were traders and accountants and and salespeople. And then I had an animal ag company invite me out to their sales meeting out in Kansas City. And have now I'm gonna be addressing,   you know, a bunch of veterinarians   and salespeople and people working in the warehouse   because all of us negotiate. All of us have to figure out how do we get what we want and need, but how do we do it without having all this kinda   roughneck,   conflict that we don't wanna have. So it's been a fascinating class. And if you're interested, go to vancecrowe.com   to find out more. Alright. Let's get back to that interview with Michael Ring.  

Yeah. I mean, you're writing about some pretty personal things. I've several times opened this up, like, in the morning, and I'm, like, just kinda groggy. And I'm like, oh, Michael Ring posted something. So I start flipping through it, and then I'm like, woah. This is   this is something you can't just stumble upon just anywhere.   Did you set out to be like, I'm going to to open up these   deeply personal things, the death of my parents?  

[00:10:54] Unknown:

You know, some of that,   there's certain elements of that that   I do keep   personal for sure.   But   I think a lot of people don't realize the degree to which that was really public for me.   Even from a young age, if I was, like, 10 years old, I would have people at church, like, asking how I was doing and how the living situation was   and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And,   my   parents were really well known in the community, and they,   to this day,   I will still have people come up every year to me and say   things like,   I still think about your parents all the time.  

That and they'll be like, I didn't even know them that well. I wish I was better friends with them.   And   that's   that's a heck of a legacy to live up to, I guess.   But,   I've   the things that I try to share there are things that I'm comfortable   still sharing and that I've I've kind of worked through and I think are beneficial to other people. I think if I have   if I have a level of of love for the topic,   and love for other people that I'm sharing it with and I'm fine with,   some of that information being out there, then I I'm good with it.   As far as, like,   why I've chosen to share some of those things specifically,   it has been because   of situations   that I've run into   in real life, and I just was prompted to write that. Like, I I,   wrote that one piece about,   navigating grief as a young person that I think you're referencing   Because I was on a call.  

I was actually hauling a tractor for someone,   and the   the owner of the tractor was with me,   and she got this call   that her son had died in a car crash.   Like, she's just receiving this news when she's with me in the truck.   And,   the son lived with her and had a 13 year old daughter.   And,   so,   you know, we're we're still a half an hour from home   at this point, and she's just like, I'm not home. I'll to the person on the phone, I'll, you know, I'll deal with it when I get back. So, you know, we we have this half hour conversation on our way home   about, like, okay. She's gonna have to go to the school and pick up the daughter   and tell her what happened. She has an appointment   a couple hours later at the coroner's office,   and this like, we're just, like, working through this on the fly. And so when I when I   was prompted to write this and this is only about a month ago.  

Like, that that was the reason behind it. And so it was just really relatable. I could just pull those things out and say, I'm gonna give this to you,   and   I hope it's valuable to you. And,   it it made it just kinda flow out. Like, I think I probably only wrote that in a couple hours,   and I hope I can keep doing that in a in a way that's helpful to people.  

[00:14:09] Unknown:

Yeah. In my experience, the the only wisdom worth passing down is wisdom that you earned. Right? And, like, it sounds like you well, I know you earned your own wisdom, and then you were able to pass that down. How did the rest of that car ride go?  

[00:14:24] Unknown:

You know, that was an interesting one because that lady, she's a retired local one fifty union bulldozer operator.   And, she lost a kid, one of her sons, in the late nineties. And so she   we had this whole conversation about, like, what she went through and   what this time would be like that would potentially be different. And,   she talked about how she read about the five stages of grief, she,   called it. And I I,   have looked through some of the literature on that as well.   And,   yeah, I don't know. It was just   it it was   I I I relate to her really well because she she was very, like, we have to get through this. We're just gonna we're gonna focus on this and be strong for those people around us, and we'll just   she knew that she could work through this eventually on her own, and it was important   to do that.  

But right now, she had a job to do.   And so we could both just be like, alright. We see each other. We're just gonna keep going.  

[00:15:36] Unknown:

Yeah. And the parallel in your own life was that you lost one parent   and then lost another one. Mhmm. Were you better able to handle the second one? No.  

[00:15:46] Unknown:

No. It was worse.   Yeah. Well, I mean, like, I felt very alone   because so   my my dad passed when I was seven. He got diagnosed with stage four cancer on, 09/11/2001.   Yeah. And,   so he only lasts a couple months after that, and then it was there is I'm the oldest of four.   The youngest was   very young at that point. I think maybe under a year old when he was diagnosed.   And,   and then my mom,   I think that was really hard on her.   And she,   I don't know if it was a contributing factor because I'm told it was somewhat genetic, but she had a a heart problem, and and her heart basically screwed up and killed her two years later.   And,   yeah, that was definitely a lot harder for me just because of the okay. Then you're thrown into all this other stuff. Like, you don't have the stable   home life. And mine was more stable than it could have been because I had a lot of immediate family around or extended family.  

But, yeah, I I I definitely benefited significantly   by the fact that my mom had become good friends with the grief counselor from hospice when my dad died.   And so,   she was around already. She just showed up at the house   after that. And,   so I did get to spend some time with her. I probably should have spent some time with   some other people too. But, as far as, like, going forward from that, I I felt pretty alone, and, like, I didn't know how to deal with a lot of those things from, like okay. Like, both of my parents are gone. This is, like, really bad. Right?   And we were   so I was the oldest of four at that time when my mom passed. The youngest would have been about three.  

And,   just we were just the four ring orphans living in the woods   in a cabin, and we'd have different extended family members come stay with us for different amounts of time,   for a while until our aunt and uncle decided to move in with us.   And then they had,   three kids.   So there was nine of us that lived there for about a decade,   which was just chaos, by the way.   I know you you kinda relate to this because you're from a big family.   And,   ours, I I think it was more so just because of all that other stuff that was going on, and then we also had kids that were overlapping ages.   And so it just a lot of the times, it was,   just   my aunt was doing great if she got everybody fed and clothed   and maybe give the kids a bath once or twice a week, maybe do some laundry. You know? And so I think that was it was really hard on a lot of on all of us,   for for the the second one just because there were so many life changes.  



[00:18:39] Unknown:

I mean, to, to   make a family pop up that fast would be so difficult mixing together things. At least when you're in middle of seven,   they just get added. Maybe it's one every year, but you're adding on, but to like suddenly   be responsible for all of these people. And now I know as a father of three,   All of those kids are aching for attention. They need it. They need   not just clothes and food, but like   direction and to keep from killing each other.   And you're going through grief while you're at this incredibly low amount of attention.   What what did you write in your substack that, you think could help  

[00:19:19] Unknown:

somebody else guiding a a kid through grief? Well, there's 10 things, and I'm not gonna remember all of them. So   I actually concentrated more on,   what it's like to be an individual,   and the coming of age stuff while grieving. It wasn't just dealing with the grief.   Right? And   so   I I concentrated on things like,   if you can   make sure that you   understand   the people around you,   and then create boundaries around that, around your emotions,   in a way that you can maintain because a boundary has to be something that you can maintain regardless of whether someone else is respecting it. Otherwise, it it's not a boundary   that's useful.  

I talked about,   valuing yourself,   quite a bit because,   you know, I think,   with with younger kids,   if they're not getting enough attention, a lot of times they act out   for sure.   That's a pretty obvious,   stereotype. And so if you can if you can become a person   that,   you can build an identity around yourself that you're confident in,   and you can project that out. And not I'm not saying you have to be, like, extroverted and stuff, but if you're just if if you're a confident person and and you have identity around respecting yourself, I would say,   then you're gonna do a lot better   than if you are trying to get the world to love you, to make up for that.  



[00:21:02] Unknown:

What identity did you cultivate?  

[00:21:08] Unknown:

I was just busy a lot,   but I did have a lot of identity around,   farming and   being busy with that stuff   because   I,   like I said, like, I had it better than a lot of kids that would get thrown into foster care or something   even despite all the other things that I've I've had to deal with.   I   am a fourth generation   agriculturalist   to work on the same   road,   Blackhawk Road in Oregon, Illinois.   And,   I got my first cow when I was six. I got,   my first word was tractor, as silly as that might be. I got a cell phone when I was 11,   10, 11   because I could then be left in a tractor in a field alone away from home.  

And,   so I I was generally just kept really busy with a lot of that.   And so   I,   yeah, I think that was a lot of it. And and then,   I don't know. I just   I I feel like when you're that small still   I had quite a bit of responsibility, but at the same time, you are still in that childlike,   you don't have a great picture of the world yet kind of   whimsical place a little bit.   So I don't I don't know.  

[00:22:37] Unknown:

When did you pick up your,   mechanical skills?  

[00:22:42] Unknown:

I took a long time, and I I'm sure I have a long ways to go. But,   so I worked through   I kinda exhibited cattle all over when I was in my teens, and I had a great time doing that. I was involved in a lot of youth leadership organizations for that, and I would highly recommend that to   anyone, especially homeschooled kids. I was homeschooled all the way through,   until college.   And so,   I'd   I was always around a lot of heavy equipment, and it always needed to be worked on,   whether it was just maintenance or whatever. You know, you're greasing and checking oil and stuff every single day. It's not like a car where you look at it every 3,000 miles.   And,   so I'd always I'd always had a background in that a little bit, and I knew that if I wanted to be involved in agriculture   in a in a meaningful way, like, at scale, I was gonna have to be around a lot of heavy equipment.  

And so   I I had kind of a penchant for tinkering with things.   And so when I was done with my youth leadership stuff,   and showing cattle, I started in college with, diesel power technology,   at Kishwaukee College, which is by DeKalb, Illinois, Malta. And and it's a great program.   And then I went from there, and I worked at Deere for a while as a mechanic. And,   I I think it's it's something that unless you're gonna pay a lot of money   for, if you're gonna own equipment,   you're   you're going to have to get pretty big in scale before you can get away from working on yourself, working on things yourself to save money just whether you want to or not. Like, there's a lot of days where I'm like, I really don't wanna have to be the one to work on this, but it's worth so much to do it myself versus farming it out.   So it's definitely a thing by necessity.  

But what kind of scaled the other stuff,   that I think you're referring to where I just tinker with the whole kind all kinds of stuff   is that I spent about ten years after,   I left Deere working with my family farming. And when I was doing that, it was   on an operation that was a couple thousand head custom feed yard, a couple thousand acres of row crops where we grew all the feed for the cattle, hay, and whatever.   And there was there's about six locations   of buildings, and all of them have a well, and a lot of them have houses with furnaces and stuff. And so I ended up spending those ten years kind of in a sandbox of learning,   where I would I would just have to deal with all these problems   that were three phase electrical motors for grain bins or,   air conditioning   HVAC stuff or   diesel engines or whatever.  

And rather than   farming a lot of that stuff out, I would just try and figure out how to do it,   because   I at a young age, I kind of became pretty autodidactic,   like, self taught for things because   I had pretty good teachers for my schooling for homeschooling.   But on the farm stuff, the the old guys there aren't that great at teaching stuff.   And so I I would just figure stuff out on my own. And so I just took that, and I was like, okay.   I started seeing   seeing patterns   in how I worked on stuff   that   it translated   a lot between industries,   whether it was   the plumbing in a house or   the   the fluid systems on a tractor.  

They they use   similar pieces, but they're much different,   say, pressure ratings or manufacturing processes or whatever. But I started to see that all these things like, underlying it is all just physics. Right? And so if you can take enough of the pieces   that are,   interconnected,   processes so, like, if you learn all of the different types of threads   of bolts and fasteners and hydraulic fittings and pipe fittings and stuff,   you can you can take something from one area,   and you can apply it in other areas.   And so once I saw that, I was like, oh, this is I can I can learn anything, which is it's a little Dunning Kruger there? Right?  

But,   it it really is,   quite a bit that way. And so so the way I think about knowledge in general is actually around this now where   okay. So   little little little story that,   you probably don't remember what we've talked about talking before.   There's this guy in France   that created interchangeable parts. Alright?   And   as with many advances in technology, it involved weapons.   So this guy in France, he came up with a way to   make interchangeable parts. And we don't think about this, but that was not always the case. Right? If you if you broke a spoke in a wheel, you had to take it to a shop, and they would make the spoke for that wheel. Now we just say all that parts are interchangeable. You just go to the store, and you get one. You put it on.   So this guy,   he made 50 guns, and he took them, and he showed them to a bunch of French officials and said, okay. I'm gonna take all these apart, pick any of the pieces out of here, make a gun out of it. And it blew their minds that you could do this. Okay?  

And,   that   combined with,   the process of,   manufacturing   processes is actually how I think about knowledge in general.   Where, you know, if you have a if you have a manufacturing company   and you say, okay. I'm gonna take all these processes   and I'm gonna put them in the right order and we're gonna put,   loose materials in one side, and we're gonna put get a product out the other. So you have you bend a piece of steel. You weld a piece of steel. You paint it. You bolt it together. Out the other side comes a machine.   Right? That's because you put all the pieces of knowledge in the right order.  

Right?   And so it's the same thing with,   all the systems that we work with when we're repairing things or we're building things like that hydraulic wall I built for the shop. Like, that's combining   fluid power systems with a building. Right?   So, yeah, I think that's the general thesis of  

[00:29:17] Unknown:

how I think about mechanics. One of my goals with my,   kids and my neighborhood   is we have a neighborhood where it's got a closed loop. And so I've always wanted to do this grand prix   of go karts. Okay. And I know that all my neighbors are just gonna go out and buy their kids a go kart. But what I wanna do is,   work with my kids to build our own go kart.   And, I know this is gonna require me to do some metal bending and some a little bit of welding,   and I've gotta do some small engine stuff, and then I've gotta figure out and I was around it a little bit as a kid, all of these things, but never did them, you know, on my own.   What would be the path that you would think I could I should start to go down if in three years, I need to have,   a go kart?  



[00:30:04] Unknown:

I would buy a junk one and take it apart.  

[00:30:07] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:30:08] Unknown:

I would start there because then you'll see all the components and, like, how they go together and stuff. But it's not so much that it's a cheat code for you. So you're like, well, maybe we could just fix this one up. You know what I mean? I like that. The taking apart is definitely one of those things that if you've already seen it put together,  

[00:30:24] Unknown:

even if you can't put it all the way back together, you at least are like, I I remember taking apart these   things. I remember when when, you walked me through changing out the battery in my truck,   and, you were like, you could just change it. And I'm like, oh,   yeah. I guess I could.   But, like, these are things that, like, by the by being the one to take it apart,   putting the new one in is, like, a cinch. You know you know what it is. So but you don't have to do it from zero.  

[00:30:51] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know,   I don't know that I've had many original ideas in my whole life. I've just taken all these other pieces, and I just put them together in different ways.  

[00:31:03] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think I talk about this, I've been doing some writing myself and,   there's a group of people out there that I call pattern spotters.   And,   without going, like, too deep into it, there are a lot of people that you find that are highly logical.   Right? They they, like, take something apart, or they understand that,   you know, if a plus b equals c, then c, you know, minus b equals a, these kinds of logic things.   But there's a certain kind of logical person that can take information   and extrapolate it out into other kinds of information, and then they can grab, like you were saying, different pieces or different parts of their knowledge and combine it to create something totally new.   And I think that pattern spotting is actually the mark of real intelligence.  

Can you see something   that is right for everybody available for everyone,   but you're the one that puts it all together. The what what we really want around us, somebody like Elon Musk is an extraordinary   pattern spotter that's able to not necessarily create from zero like an artist with a blank white page, but instead to be like, I'm gonna take this piece and this piece and combine them together to be something far greater than what it started out as.  

[00:32:24] Unknown:

Yeah. I   that that does seem   like   a lot of the ideas in society that we're seeing   are just combinations of that, even even in any kind of innovation we're seeing.   And it's really very seldom that we find   true innovation. Where do you think true innovation comes from then?  

[00:32:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't I don't know what that that they would necessarily need to be different. Right? Like, something from zero to a new thing, you know, maybe like a solar sail, but those we have to step on things to get to the next thing. So I don't know that you can.   Innovation or creativity in and of itself, I don't know, is a kind of energy that I think   is,   is is the thing we call God or it's what we call inspiration or a muse or whatever. There is an energy   that occurs in creativity   that, once you felt it,   it's it's,   it's something that you know I can't create the I can't generate this without   finding or discovering or   pushing something new together.  



[00:33:36] Unknown:

You know, it's funny.   This is something that I've been   taking a little bit of a foray into this year   when I've been considering,   having people visit me more often   because   what I'm really trying to do,   is   prompt   people to be able to tap into creativity by putting them in a different place and creating a new perspective for them. So I've been inviting people to come visit me at Civilmore, which is where I live.   And the reason I've been doing that is,   just so I   I mean, some of it is just that way I get exposure to novelty without leaving home.   Right? I get to stay home with my family more.  

But, also,   like, there's actually really interesting people that I like to help,   that even if I can't solve their problems, maybe I can facilitate them solving their own problems.   Right?   And,   yeah, I think just taking time away and sticking yourself in an environment that's different will will prompt new things from you. And something I like to do with that   is,   have conversations   with people in a way that   you can just be really nonjudgmental   about. So, like,   think about if you had somebody   that you could just   say all your intrusive thoughts to and you knew they wouldn't judge you. And I'm not saying this is this is theoretical here. Right? So it's not truly maybe possible,   but it would be really close.  

So if you could just say, okay. I'm gonna tell this person,   I'm just gonna dump my brain out,   and it's gonna let me,   it's kinda like journaling. Right? Except it's verbal.   It just it would probably depend on the the style of thinking you   primarily,   work best with.   So if you if you're able to just, like,   explain to somebody   your problems with a business or with a with   a situation that you're dealing with with some partners,   whatever,   and it was a person who was   there   being extremely attentive.   They're they're paying attention to you deeply,   and they aren't just trying to come up with an answer for you. They're just trying to help you get it all out, and then they can maybe mirror it back to you,   or they can,   like, pick out something like the tiniest choices game. Like, I see this one little thing you put in there. What's that about? Right?  

And, like, you might have not even realized that you said it.   That's often how it goes. Right?   But,   I think that's really valuable too. Like, the combination   of, okay. I'm in a new place that's giving me new perspective because   virtually everyone that visits me is getting a new perspective. There's point 3% of the population that has my job, right, in in the cattle industry.   So   and then also go along with that. You can have these conversations with them. It's it seems to be really helpful to people.  

[00:36:39] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you're speaking my language. Right? Like, this is I I I discovered this through legacy interviews   that people will have spent   sixty five, seventy years   engaged with all the people that they are around them, but they never get a chance to talk about something   that's gone on in their mind. And when they finally get a chance to say it out loud,   they realize things about stuff that they believed or thought that they knew or felt   that you can you can see it written on their face. Like,   I didn't even know that happened or I didn't realize that this led to that or and it it's like   to providing a space for a person   mid career or somebody that's trying to   to break through something,   I think, is is an awesome thing.  

Who's taking you up on it? What type of people?  

[00:37:33] Unknown:

Well, I I honestly, I haven't done it in person that much. And the people that I have also have had, like, other projects that I've wanted to work,   with them on.   So it hasn't been, like, just that.   But   I really enjoy like, Benjamin Anderson's   sent a couple of his, people from his lab to me this spring and had a good time.   And, I mean, I guess   you're probably one of those people too. You've you've come and visit me.   So along with a few other people that came with you.  

[00:38:09] Unknown:

So,   before we, turned on the microphones, we were talking about the fact that you and I have been experiencing   parenthood   at almost the exact same intervals. Like, we were both in the hospital. Our wives were both having babies at the, like, literally the exact same time. Yeah.   How's it going?  

[00:38:28] Unknown:

I think that kids are great. I think they're a ton of fun.   And   if you can frame   raising kids in a way that's like   this fun   problem to figure out where you're just like, I know there's a reason you're doing this. And if I do the right thing   that,   like, you're just trying to get attention in this way. And if I can if I can cater to it a little bit this way, then you're gonna light up and and then, like,   be a be a little angel and, like, give me this laugh or whatever. And,   things like,   kids testing you. I think a lot of people get really frustrated when they get tested by their kids. But, really, what they're doing is they're trying to find   the the limits   so they can conform to them  

[00:39:22] Unknown:

a lot of times. I mean, I think there's some hellions out there. Yeah. I don't know what kind of kids you have. They're not looking to conform to them. Well  

[00:39:28] Unknown:

but they're gonna find them. And so if you can see them and you can see, like,   this, like, instinctual   drive to just find the very limit of what you're okay with putting up with. And if you put the guardrail in the right spot where it's way more fun,   if you spend time on that, if you really put meaningful effort into   saying, like, no. This is the limit of how you can act about these things. Like, you can come up and you can poke me. You can act like you're gonna tickle me, but you can't, like, punch me in the face.   Right? Then, like, you can you can see in real time   how those things   make your kids into   great little companions.  

The thing is they never end. Like, that that there's always something new that you're trying to, like, okay. Dial in a limit on this all the time. But, like, the more you do it, I I just really enjoy   spending time with my kids now that I that I I don't know. I think they're reasonably well adjusted. How do you think about  

[00:40:28] Unknown:

respect in your home as far as, like, the way they should treat you as the father or your wife as the mother?  

[00:40:35] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that's one of those things where,   kids keep pushing   when they they're like, no. I don't like to eat this for dinner or whatever. And they'll, like, keep saying, no. I'm not gonna eat it. No. I'm not gonna eat it. But   I do like to let some of that stuff happen   because   they'll   if they do keep pushing, I want them to be comfortable pushing back a little,   like, a decent amount, really, because they'll they'll teach you things with that. They'll teach you stuff all the time about, like,   oh, that actually okay. That, milk,   I thought I gave you a fresh bottle, but, really, you found that somewhere, and it's it needs to be changed out or what you know? Like, they're giving you information that's actually useful. They're not always just disrespecting you. So it's it's making sure that that's the case.  

And I don't quite know how you do that without   if you wanna be really strict with them. You know? I I they're teaching me stuff all the time,   from their input.   So what do you think?  

[00:41:41] Unknown:

Yeah. It's something that I think about a lot,   like table manners, for example, are are something that we have instituted. And it was funny because my wife, like, I'll be correcting my daughters about, like, hey, we always put our napkin on our lap, and my wife would be like, oh gosh, I forget about this and put her in you know, like because it's not like when we were a couple, we did this. Right? Like, we had table manners, but, like,   instituting   how do we talk with one another. We have, a way that we start every meal. We have a way that we ask for them to get down.   And and, like, on the one hand, I sometimes feel like, man, you're being strict.  

Is this for your ego? Are you sure it's not just like you want this because you saw this on television that this is the right way? And then in other parts of me, I'm like, this is the way that you create order   so that you can scale   on   other things that you need. And so there's, like, a there's definitely a tension   between,   you know, wanting them to   institute a level of discipline upon them, but then also wanting that,   to be discipline that   enables them on some other domain that maybe doesn't pay off right away.  

[00:42:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   There's a lot of that where you're like, you have to reflect on your own upbringing and be like, okay. I see how this benefited me. So I know it'll pay off in the long run, and I should do it, which kinda goes back to, like, we just compare what worked and what didn't work to our own childhoods, and that's kinda what we're going off  

[00:43:14] Unknown:

of. Yeah. I ask people that all the time in legacy interviews. Did you know, when you think about your parenting, were you trying to be like your parents or were you trying to be different? Mhmm. And, people often have very,   nuanced and,   interesting answers, but they've often not thought about it explicitly.  

[00:43:32] Unknown:

Yeah. It's crazy how much stuff that we run off of just implicit   or emotion,   emotional motivations   on all that stuff that and   I think   that between adults as well in our whole lives, there's so many things that we don't say out loud.  

[00:43:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I one of the things I've been grappling with is,   my wife and I were talking about how among pattern spotters, among, like, highly logical people,   they think of me as a great and excellent communicator. Right? Like, really works well. They want feedback on, like, how can I frame this? But then when I'm talking with, like,   normies or emotional people, like, I am   way too direct.   I'm, like, intimidatingly   direct. And, like, it didn't dawn on me until my wife, like, pointed this out. Like, there are some people, Vance, that, like, they don't think you're a great communicator.   And you start thinking, like,   okay.  

Why is this? Like, what I because I don't think for most of my life that was the case that the that the incredibly logical direct people thought of me as a great communicator. I think it would have been the other   thing. Anyway, I'm I'm just working through this because   it's been something that I've had to you know, I have employees that are creatives   and they're they're, like, you know, they're artistic and they're more gentle and they don't say things directly.   And I've had to, like, really think about the way that I communicate   because the way that I communicate with my friends and with the people that I'm maybe   engaged in in in other ways,  

[00:45:06] Unknown:

this doesn't work there. Okay. So I have two things.   And   the one is,   do you feel like   for the people that are more emotional based and not   direct verbal,   they have, like, this negative bias towards   all that, like,   verbalizing their emotions. And I don't know I think that's way more common in society than being direct,   and I don't know what that comes from. It's like part of culture.  

[00:45:37] Unknown:

Same word.  

[00:45:39] Unknown:

That that was basically a question for you. I don't really know. Think I understand the question. Okay. Okay. So I can phrase that differently.   I think that   just as a function of,   daily life and culture, people don't spend very much time verbalizing their emotions.   I think that   we typically   just feel our emotions and don't do anything about them most of the time. And I think between parents and kids growing up, I see it a lot where you just kinda learn by osmosis, learn by example,   about how to handle situations with your emotions versus,   explaining them to your kids.  



[00:46:20] Unknown:

I so as you're saying this, the thing that comes to mind is   I don't know whether we have a good time or a bad time explaining our emotions. I think what we are really bad at is expressing our interests.   What is it that we actually want?   And, and   the more that you can say as clearly as your, the more you can communicate what it is that you want   to me, I have learned like, Hey, this optimizes for other people to not have to mess around. Like, they know this is what Vance wants, and I'm going to   ask him for what I want so that that way we can met this out. And what I'm coming to realize is,   there are some people that expressing what they want,   is is really difficult for them.  

And I think that this is something that I've clearly worked on. You know, I I think about it a lot. I write about it a lot. I work on it a lot, but it's still something that is not obvious to me, and I think it's because I used to be more like that. I used to either not know what I wanted or to be afraid to say what I wanted. And now I am the opposite because I figured out how much it's helped me. But this creates, like, dissonance between me and people that are either afraid or don't know what they want.  

[00:47:38] Unknown:

Okay. So this leads perfectly into my second thing.   So you have,   given me feedback on a lot of different situations.   You and I have known each other for a long time at this point, and we've talked about how we interact with our wives and our kids and all this stuff. And   within that,   I can see that when you give me or other people feedback,   you are choosing how you say it because   there's   half a dozen or more different pieces of feedback you could give me   that are all things you're thinking,   but you both choose to give me a certain thing,   and you chose to articulate it a certain way.  

So how do you think about   communicating with those people that see that you're doing those things?  

[00:48:28] Unknown:

You mean the people that   I I guess, which people?  

[00:48:33] Unknown:

So I see that you do that. And so you have to think well, I know you don't have to think, but there's the potential for you to think metacognitively   about me thinking about you thinking about it.  

[00:48:44] Unknown:

Does that make sense? Yeah. Tell me more. I'm I'm open to where you're going with this. I'm I'm open to the exploration. Okay. I'll I I'm sorry. I'll try again. So  

[00:48:54] Unknown:

if you're giving me feedback   and I'm saying, okay. That's good feedback from Vance,   but I know there's a lot of other feedback you were also thinking about giving me. And within the feedback that you did give me, you thought of several different ways to give it to me before you did so and you chose one. So I think about, well, why didn't he give me the other ones?  

[00:49:17] Unknown:

Oh, that's interesting.  

[00:49:18] Unknown:

But but this is moreover   how you think about me   knowing all that stuff.  

[00:49:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Okay. So that's what you mean by, like, metacognition. Right? It's not just what am I thinking? It's what are you thinking? And what are you thinking that I'm thinking that you're thinking, which like very quickly gets like   weirdly circular, but   is important.   You know, this may be my, one of my creative,   like   strengths or whatever, where it's hard to know, like, hey, where did that creative idea come from? I don't actually have multiple pieces of feedback to give you. I have the one to give you that I think, hey, this is one that I've thought of. And generally speaking,   in the spirit of my mentor, Peter,   I often give people the feedback that I think they would want if they knew that I had to give it.  

And so, like, I am telling you something not to hurt your feelings or not to even change you so that it benefits   me, I'm usually saying whatever I think like, oh, Michael would want to know this   if he knew that I thought this.   Not not because I thought it, but be like you would want to change this or you would want to understand   the way you're doing that is making people feel this way or the way you're   expressing this is   is hampering the thing that I think you want as your outcome.   And so my feedback   is really fashioned after my mentor who   and and another guy named Court Winickie, who we both know, who both are extremely good at giving you feedback that   you would wanna know if you knew that somebody else   had that information for you.  



[00:50:59] Unknown:

That's interesting. I had no idea where you would go with that. I might have to I'll relisten to this and and see what I think of that.  

[00:51:11] Unknown:

But with children   and your closest family members. Right? Like, my wife, when I can get over the ego death that needs to happen when she gives me feedback, gives me literally the best feedback in the whole world.   But it is a fight   for for me to receive it. Right? Like, we have a whole process that after I've done it a few times, I now am like, oh, okay. I can try and jump over that part where I'm resisting this,   and I'm sure it's the same with your kids. I'm sure your kids have to become resistant in some way to your feedback in order that they can stand up on their own and they aren't, like, you know, crippled by by your feedback and your thoughts. And those that don't become resistant to their parents' feedback become their parents' automatons, which is definitely not what you want. Way worse.  

[00:51:59] Unknown:

Yeah.   That's interesting that   okay. So the frame you're saying you have a framework for being like, okay.   I am receiving feedback, and so I need to consciously open my mind to it and be able to take it in and and   think about it and not just   be really resistant to it upfront just because   I'm emotional, and I don't wanna I don't wanna,   you know,   be told I'm wrong.  

[00:52:26] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. Or or even just feel the feelings of being, like, if they're right about this, now I'm embarrassed because I can think of all the circumstances   under which I have screwed this up. Right? So somebody gives you feedback about the way that you interact with you interacted with another person,   and you know very clearly, like, well, I do that with a whole bunch of other circumstances.   So now I'm not just feeling the sting of embarrassment   of whatever that one thing is that you're telling me about, but I'm also having to be like,   oh. Right? And, like, we all know   the incredibly   horrible feeling of wincing   about something you said or did, and then and then seeing it ad infinitum   into your past.  



[00:53:13] Unknown:

Yes. For sure.   Yeah. And I yeah, well, I think that's that's probably   that definitely hits today because my wife did that to me, and I really deserved it, like, two days ago. And I was like,   okay.   That was we'll work with that one. But   is that something that you came to,   like, primarily,   through   interacting with your wife, or is it just something that you brought there?  

[00:53:43] Unknown:

I I came to these realizations about my wife in retrospect. So, like,   you know, if, before I was going to give a talk, I need to have a sounding board. Right. Otherwise you're just saying it to yourself or whatever. And so then when I'm saying it out loud, just like you said, when you're writing down for your blog,   You all of a sudden discover your gaps.   Right? And when I'm on,   when I'm talking in front of my wife, there's parts where I'll be like, dah dah dah dah dah. You know, like, I'll finish that out. And she'd be like, no. No. Like, what are the details there? And I'll be like, I I mean, I've got it. Don't worry about it. And she'd be like, no. I wanna hear it. And then you realize, like, like, okay, I don't actually have that. And then or   if you have, like, a transition, this is one thing I'm saying, and now I need to tie it to this other thing I wanna talk about. And she'll be like, that transition's terrible. Like, nobody's going to know   what you're talking about. She's not telling me it's terrible because she's like, I wanna stick a dagger into you. She's being like, let me put a flag here and, like, let's work on this. But instead, I'm like, oh,   how you just don't understand and, like, know the energy and whatever it is. And like eventually I come back down. I'll be okay. What do you want me to do and then you're like okay? Actually that is better and then I come to the conclusion like okay I can work on it this way and this is what you mean and then it becomes smoother and then I'm like oh, this is great. I'm so glad I made this change But I have to go through that psychological,   like, hurdles and pain and frustration   and all of that.  



[00:55:08] Unknown:

Yeah. I I definitely get that when you're just like, I've I wanna put this in an article so bad, and I just there's nothing around it that you can tie tie to it   with. So, yes, resonate strongly.   Does your wife read your speeches?  

[00:55:22] Unknown:

Or is that just, like, if you're just, like, just like Before a speech, like, before we're leaving, the night before, we'll be, like, chatting, and she'll be, like, chatting and she'd be like, what are you giving to talk about it? And I'll be like, ah, you don't worry about it. And then she'll be like, no, let's talk about it. Or sometimes, and this is really when I'm giving new talks,   I gotta give it to somebody. Right? I gotta share it with somebody. And like,   in the last year or so, I've given a lot of new talks.   And,   this is where I am   literally taking an idea that has been an abstract thought in my mind   and trying to put it into words   that another person not only can understand, but can use, like my talks are, you know, about communications, but the highest praise somebody can give me is that's really practical. I can use that.  

And so to take an abstract idea of something that I just do naturally, or I've seen somebody do or something and turn it into a metaphor that can then be practically used and instructions that don't guide somebody off in the wrong path is hard to do. You're threading a pretty tight needle there. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:56:27] Unknown:

Man,   I   I wish I could hear more of your talks   on a on a like, I don't know. I wish they were cataloged somewhere a little bit better because I will go occasionally   look up something if I think it's relevant. Joseph's really good at remembering them for some reason, so I just sometimes ask him, my twin brother.  

[00:56:48] Unknown:

Well, this is nice to hear. I, I've been working on,   writing all these concepts down.   Really? Yeah. Yeah. And, an AI has been very helpful to me because it transcribes them. And then I say,   like, ask me questions about this. And then because it does, then I'm verbalizing things. And if I say it a few times,   then I come home. And if it's, like, a good enough idea, then I'm explaining it to my wife, and then I write it down. And   so it's,   AI has been that kind of nonjudgmental   person   for these ideas.  

[00:57:20] Unknown:

Do you use,   what voice mode do you prefer if you like, if you're talking to it and do you do you use that part for this? Yes.  

[00:57:29] Unknown:

But then it always it always fucking interrupts me. Grock is horrible. Horrible. I got so mad two days ago, and I was trying to do that. Chat g p t is a little better. It is. Yeah. And I use Claude a little bit. But so now what I actually do is I record things in voice memo. I just, like,   talk to my phone and record it.   And then I,   use the transcription that you can get from your voice memo, and I upload the   the,   the written thing to my AI and then have it respond, which is like a step I don't wanna have to do, but it it works way better for me to not be interrupted or not to have the idea hijacked or changed in some way.  

[00:58:09] Unknown:

Do you can you just use, like, the voice transcription  

[00:58:13] Unknown:

thing on JPT somehow? It's just tighter this way. And then I and then I also have the recording itself. Okay. Yeah. No. That's okay. That's very valid. Yeah.   How how do you use AI right now?  

[00:58:27] Unknown:

I,   you know, I think all of us have been like, give me this beautiful essay of   ideas around this topic, and then it's just garbage.   So   that's not really a super useful,   way to use it. But I will I will   I will talk to it a decent amount because it's it's decent at giving you feedback   on,   like, I used it to prep for this a little bit because   I   you've worked with me a decent amount at, like, telling my   background story, and I've I've probably, like, somewhat frustrated you with how bad it was initially. Like, may not that much. But,   so I was like, no. I should probably do this.  

And I spent some time on that last week.   I   use it as a thesaurus a lot or, like, give me five ways to say this, and then I'll not use any of them, but I'll use a little snippet out of something.   And it helps me   come up with ideas a little faster.   I will   I'll   I'll use it for mechanical problems, but if I'm trying to find   a part or something that I can't just Google, it's probably pretty obscure, and it's probably not gonna win very well anyway. Have you used GRAC four?   I got it yesterday.  

[00:59:44] Unknown:

Oh, shit, man. That thing,   it's unbelievable to me. Really?   Grok four   is the, like,   I'm sitting down with my wife after having used it for a couple of days and being, like, we need to radically rethink our children's education.   We need to really think about where our own businesses and what we're going to be doing in five years is because grok is the thing that, like,   really opened my eyes to, like,   hey. Like, this is going to get faster and bigger and way smarter,   way faster than I thought it was.  

[01:00:22] Unknown:

And how are you applying it?  

[01:00:25] Unknown:

So, you know, I used GRAC for,   I mean, I I was looking at legal agreements. I was having it,   have   intensely asked me you know, like,   I have a a group of people that I'm trying to persuade the on the value long term of Bitcoin, and it was a   they have legal constraints, and they have,   you know,   psychological   constraints. And Grok four's level of discourse with me   is as good as if I went out. And if I as as anyone from Pattern Spotting's ability to,   articulate a great case. I mean, it it is truly   staggering to me how intelligent is it. It's it's like   something has happened in with grok four that's probably worth talking about.  

In the past,   you used to have people that went to elite institutions, and they got elite degrees, a PhD in in a field from Harvard or MIT or Stanford.   And the only way you had access to them was if you either had network connections or money.   And now everyone   can, for $30 a month, a dollar a day, essentially,   get access to whatever information those people had.   And those people were in a different class. They had a prestige about them   that was   totally different.   That's gone now. Now the now the woman that was picking me up for my enterprise rental car has the same access to the same information   and the same ability to   digest it and have it be able to ask questions of it and and be able to mold and shape and do something with that information   as   people that used to only have   access to the elite.  



[01:02:15] Unknown:

Okay. So I know when you first when you had your first kid, you didn't even. She didn't watch TV. She didn't know what a TV was.   So how are you thinking about introducing that?  

[01:02:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I'm going as long as I can because I   I think that,   the thing that will make humans   special is probably their taste,   is is probably their preferences.   It's probably like that they have an opinion about things   that wasn't just told to them what their opinion is. You know, the thing about AI is that it can't really say no unless no is programmed into it, whereas a human   has choice and that that free will and that, like, what are you drawn to?   And so I my children still don't. I mean, they've watched very, very minimal. The thing we watch on YouTube is primitive technology. Have you ever seen this? Mhmm. So it's like where a guy goes out into the   Australian Outback and he makes an he makes a hand axe, and then he starts with that hand axe chopping down trees, and then he, like, makes bricks in a forge, and now he's, like, smelting iron. But he didn't do it with tools. Like, we watch that on YouTube. But outside of that, that and ballet.  

And the reason that I do this is not because I want Little House on the Prairie children. It's because I want their imaginations   to run as wild as possible for as long as possible.   Because once they become   once they have the auxiliary power of   AI, then their brains will atrophy in some important way, and I think they will be different humans.   And I want them to be as human human as they can for as long as they can.  

[01:03:57] Unknown:

I very much agree with the the taste, the aesthetic,   statement. I mean, I do believe that that is the new   most important   skill is is   taste and a   desire to,   care about aesthetics. And I I think we're long overdue for that. I think that   as a result of,   well, fiat,   fiat money devaluation.   We just we,   don't value   a lot   of things that in the past would have been   such as,   beautiful architecture   or   anything low time preference like that.   And that I   I think that we are reaching a new age where,   people will put emphasis on those things, things that are real and hard and valuable. And I I'm thrilled that   that is,   has potential to happen finally. And,   like, maybe it is catalyzed by AI and Bitcoin. I mean, hey. That's   it seems like there's some potential too.  



[01:05:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, how do you cultivate an aesthetic in your children?  

[01:05:15] Unknown:

I have no idea. I I mean, I think that we are surrounded by so much beauty   that,   it's easy to miss. And so I think that just   stopping and and,   showing them some of those things, I guess, would be what I would say. And I I think that   I I love where I live. I think there's a lot of beauty there even though it's not a a city or anything.   And all we have to do is appreciate where we are   as much as we can.  

[01:05:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I,   one of the things that's amazing about my,   oldest daughter is that she has a fashion sense. Oh, interesting. And, like,   my wife and I did not impute this into her. Right? Like, this is just her. And, like, this morning, for example, she was willing to spend more than fifteen minutes, like,   climb crawling through,   unfolded clothes   and drawers because she had in mind a color of sock that she wanted to wear   with a skirt.   And I think, like, I could not care less about this. Your mother doesn't care about this. She's not trying to attract boys.   She just has something in her that wants to be expressed in this way that that can when she found it, she was, like, found it, you know, got it.  

That pair of socks goes with that skirt, goes with that shirt,   and she's not even five years old. And so for me, like, I see this and I feel it and I think, like, alright.   I want her to have exposure to color, and I want, like, her to know about fabrics, and I want her to have opinions. I am not going to tamp it. Like, fashion's not my gig,   but, like, I am not gonna tamp this down. I'm gonna turn that up as much as I can.  

[01:07:06] Unknown:

I will say,   my daughter does she does have opinions about that, but it's also   not always rational. Like, it's like, those don't match at all.   You know? But she's like, I want I know I have this, and I know I have this, and I want it to go together. Or she will ask her mother.   Like, she wants to know those things, and I don't think that was something   like, I don't think we really   make sure of that. Like, we don't impute on her that that she needs to consider that. It's like she just wants to know how she can,   like, have those features about her.  



[01:07:41] Unknown:

How is raising girls different than raising boys?  

[01:07:44] Unknown:

You know,   I am actually glad we had a girl first. They seem to, like, respond to things a lot better. They develop really fast,   and   they're very,   very cuddly, very loving,   our our kids are anyway.   Whereas   our our little boy, he's I think he's pretty tame, to be honest so far. He's not like a little hellion,   but my wife is already like,   he's a lot to deal with sometimes, you know, compared to Amelia who,   will go, you know, play with her dolls and and,   go play with her,   kitten   in the garage and just hang out. And,   it'll be interesting if he gets a little older now. Joseph has a little boy that   he climbs things that I did not know it was possible for a child to climb, and then he will fall off of them. And it is bad.  

But he's he's a little trooper about it too, which makes up for it, I guess. But,   that was that was pretty   it it's a lot more extreme. So you definitely see   the the difference between them for sure. I don't know. You   you'll you'll have an experience, I'm sure, if you have a little Even we have a one month old. Right? And, like,  

[01:09:08] Unknown:

even there   and it's it may just be in my own head, but it definitely feels like there is an energy difference. Right? There is definitely an energy difference when we're at church   and the way that people would wave to our little tiny girls versus the way they wave to our little boy, you know, they like, at that age, they look really, really similar. So maybe it's just the way they're dressed or whatever. But, like,   it feels like there is a tangible difference, an energy difference that, like, when all this argument is going on about, like, oh, you know, boys and girls and or, you know, do we just teach them their their gender?   I don't think so. And we're only one month into this game, and I've you know, my little boy is different than my girls.  



[01:09:50] Unknown:

It's so different. It's, yeah, it's so stark. And, I mean, I get that every kid is different, but, like,   en masse,   as an average,   it's extremely stark. It's very present. Yeah. That's right.   Yeah.  

[01:10:05] Unknown:

So you mentioned,   Bitcoin and Fiat. And one of the things that you are into that is like a foreign language to me   is,   is commodity trading or at least, like, understanding futures. And you're involved in a in a group of people that get together and talk about this. What does a group of commodity traders get together and talk about?  

[01:10:27] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well okay. This is the part where I have to   really try not to say words people don't know just because it has its own pattern language.   And,   basically,   my primary involvement in commodities started just because I'm in commodity ag. Right? And,   there's a lot of zeros moving around that you are just, a lot of times, trying to break even or a little bit more on. And so you really need to hedge risk.   And so that's a lot of what   farmers are interested in commodity markets for in in terms of futures and options trading, maybe, is their hedging risk. They're trying to say, I'm gonna lock in,   some kind of profit, or I'm going to limit the amount I can lose.  

And so   it's a really emotional game because,   it's more than just number go up.   It's   it's all the emotion around   sunk cost fallacy or or losing things as humans that we fixate on way more than we do on the gains.   And so   I think a big part of it is just focusing on managing your emotions   and making smart decisions.   And I say that as someone who's done a lot of dumb things,   in that process. And, thankfully, I haven't really lost that much money at it, especially since a lot of the time I'm,   hedging things. I'm just managing risk. I'm not speculating that much.   But, you know, if you say if you have,   I mean, if you have 500 acres,   you're you still have to   manage   several $100,000  

[01:12:15] Unknown:

of risk just on your grain. I mean, it Meaning, you're gonna grow that grain, corn or soybeans,   and you could wait until you've harvested it   and sell it at whatever price the market gives you that day.   Or you could start saying, well, I'm gonna sell a little bit of it now while the market's at this price, and I'm gonna sell a little bit of it as it goes forward in order that you don't ever lose more than   what you what it put you what it cost to produce it.  

[01:12:42] Unknown:

Yeah. And you can do that with things like,   put contracts where you're saying, okay. I'm gonna give up 10¢ of my margin that I know I'm not gonna get back necessarily. But if I do that and this contract is sitting there, then I know I can't lose more than this much money. Because if it does go under that, I'll just execute the contract, and then I'll I'll I have the option to sell it, but not the obligation. Right?   And so   that it's kinda like buying insurance. You know? You're giving up a little bit of your profit margin to lock it in. And there's a lot of tools,   that are offered   through,   the government now, especially,   with insurance price protection, with the LRP on cattle,   that you're able to,   buy some of those products, and they are effectively insurance. Like, you're just locking in a limited downside.  

And I think it it does work best when you use them unemotionally, when you just, okay. This is a math equation, and I'm just doing something responsible.   But at the same time, like, it's not always like that. Like, you're still at the mercy of the markets, and you can look back and say,   yeah. I should have contracted two years out, and now I feel like crap that I didn't. And the price dropped in half, and there's nothing you're gonna do about it. Like, that happens to people. That's happened to a lot of farmers in the last two years.   And so, yeah, you mentioned I'm part of a group that,   is just   a handful of farmers that are interested in that type of thing. And, honestly, a lot of what we talk about is is the emotions around it and them and   thoughts around how to be better people on our own and, like, how what that brings to   us as business people,   when we're making these decisions.  

And it's a lot of jargon and math and stuff too. It's like I see these patterns and the magic lines and the   the ways the market moves relative to,  

[01:14:38] Unknown:

whatever. You know? Do you believe in those things? The, like, the Technical tarts? Yeah.  

[01:14:45] Unknown:

My personal idea there,   and it's, like, take take this for what it's worth, which is nothing, is I think it's human nature.   I think they are a representation   of what we think they are.   And so, like, if everybody believes that's what it is, then that's kind of what it is,   and that's how it works.   So if you're just   if if it's a combination of agreed upon   rules along with human behavior   and and you're just modeling what human behavior would do across it,   then the emergent phenomena from it are just a product of human behavior. Even if it's computers trading, their computers designed by people.  

[01:15:26] Unknown:

So let me restate this and see if what you're saying is this.   Sometimes people will see these charts like a like, some kind of a triangle in the in the way the Mhmm. Red bars are and the green bars are, and then they'll say, oh, this is coming to, like, a point. And we know that the next thing that's gonna happen is a giant green bar is gonna show up there. And since we all know that this is what happens when that happens and we're gonna buy because we are anticipating that that green bar means the number go up. And because I'm doing it and you're doing it and those five people are doing it or those 5,000 people are doing it, then it is a self fulfilling prophecy. The green bar goes up because   everybody saw the signal, the   that wasn't necessarily an actual signal, but it kind of was a pattern that people agree on. Is that what you're saying?  



[01:16:18] Unknown:

I yes. I would say that that is   a possible option that it could follow.   But then so that is a technical,   but the other side of it is a fundamental.   So the fundamental   side is what is actually happening in the real world. Trump tariffs?   Game's different now.   K?  

[01:16:42] Unknown:

What does that mean?  

[01:16:43] Unknown:

What it means that it's still chaos theory. Like, it's okay if in in a vacuum, if you're just looking at the technicals, yeah, it would probably work that way more so where it's just human nature. But then we have the chaos theory of the world   that it throws you a curveball. And if that drastically changes the scenario,   that's the thing that it's gonna follow now.  

[01:17:05] Unknown:

My sense is that the chaos theory is, like, that's always going on. Right? Before that, it was Mhmm. You know, war in Ukraine. Before that, you know,   oil embargo or or, you know, people printing money or whatever that is. So to me,   I'm totally uneducated in this and I've never made money or lost money in this world. So I'm only telling you what probably received wisdom   is that it's like astrology for,   commodity dudes. Right? They're, like, looking at numbers and and it's predicting the future, whereas there is no future to be predicted there. Yeah. I think a lot of it's still statistics,  

[01:17:42] Unknown:

to some extent. Like,   if it's if it's doing this thing, then there's a probability that it does this thing next. Right? It's it is still,   it it tends to work out that way. So if you work with the strongest ones, it I mean, just statistically, that's just what happens.   I don't I'm not gonna say why the statistics are like that. And then   a market can change and become a new market. Like, the markets that we have now   are very different than the markets we had in the early two thousands. They respond   entirely differently   for a multitude of factors.  

And what do you think some of those factors are? Algorithmic trading probably being one of them. Yeah. I'm sure that's one of them. But, like, for example, we have to consider a lot more things.   Well, not really more things, but just things are different now. So, like, corn market, there's way more acres in South America now than there used to be. Cattle market,   there used to be a bunch of cattle in Brazil that they just turned into grain acres. Right?   And so we're we're at this interesting point in the cattle industry where   nobody in the world has cattle. It's not that we're low and somebody else is compensating.  

It's nobody does. Australia is trying to build, but they probably won't that much. The dairy herd can't do it because they're way short on replacement heifers.   Brazil, like I just said, put a bunch of their acres in crops so they don't have that many cattle.   And so, like, okay. It's a new market.  

[01:19:13] Unknown:

Yeah. What a wild time that just as, like, the carnivore and paleo craze is at a fever pitch. Mhmm. There's beef is getting to an all time high. And the you've said this before, like the herd is at an all time low.   And when I talk to   cow calf operations,   they can't produce enough calves fast enough. Right. Is it whatever they have is, is,   is being sold for pretty high prices. But I was talking to a guy that raises bulls, and he said,   one of the worst markets he's ever been in, that, like, he's it there's his highest price bull. You don't agree with that? No. I don't.  

[01:19:52] Unknown:

I think it's really dependent on where you are,   because, like, the one ranch that I bought a bowl from this spring, they sold every extra bowl they had.   It just it really that is seed stock is its own game. It really is, especially with bulls. Like, way even even more than replacement heifers. Because you only need so many bulls. You'll a mature bull services 30 cows. Right? So you you need way less of them. So bulls is is a really regional thing, and it has to do more with your customer base.   Whereas,   like, there's a lot there's a lot of heifers that got cut back this year. There really is. And I don't know if they're all gonna have homes this fall. I think we probably won't see  

[01:20:34] Unknown:

so there's the cattle stuff. When you say got cut back, where would they normally go?  

[01:20:39] Unknown:

Like, they got kept back to breed instead of getting sent to a feedlot. I see. Yeah.   Yeah. And so   I mean,   it's so capital intensive right now,   that it is still hard to keep them.   And, like, I wish I had more of them, and I   can't make myself like, we we just retained, like, a third more. And I just I   can't really see laying out more capital just because it's a lot of capital,   to do it.  

[01:21:12] Unknown:

That's because you're raising a cow that's going to have a baby, and you've gotta feed her that whole time, and you're not making money on her going to be sold to, to be turned into beef that people eat, you've gotta keep her fed and healthy. And and that's the capital that you're putting into her in order to be able to have one more calf next year.  

[01:21:33] Unknown:

Yeah. And that's the thing about agriculture in general. It usually has,   lower returns than a lot of other places you can stick money in the world. Right? And and cattle is no exception because, you know, if you if you're developing your own heifers, you breed a cow, they just ate for nine months,   They have the calf.   We wait a year,   turn turn them out as a yearling, breed them, wait another year to get a calf, and then you wait another   year to feed the calf out before you get any return on that heifer if you're fattening her calf out. Like, that's that is a heck of a window   to pay interest on   for a return that is   not I mean, even with today's prices,   if you're   if you have a bunch of stuff financed, it doesn't work. Like, you you have to have   cheap rented land. You have to have   cheaper equipment   if you're gonna finance the cow. You can't if you you need land, equipment, and cows and you can't finance all of them, there's no way.  

You have to start with equity somewhere, or you have to rent, or you have to do something. You have to have some advantage.  

[01:22:43] Unknown:

Okay. I'm gonna take just a couple of moments to break in here. One of the things that I'm doing when I'm not interviewing interesting people like Michael is that I'm conducting legacy interviews. This is where I sit down with parents and grandparents,   and we talk about their life stories. We ask them questions about their childhood, what it was like to grow up when they did. We capture stories about their career. What were the ups and downs? When were things that you were planning to work out didn't work out?   And we talk about their marriage and raising children, and then we talk about the wisdom that they've learned along the way. And people have loved this interview process.  

We hear all the time from families that have watched it together and said, I learned so much about my parents. I had no idea, and I'm so glad we got a chance to watch it before they were gone.   Because that meant not only could we hear their stories and laugh along with them, but we could ask them more questions. We could discover more about not just them, but about what makes me, me. And a lot of my clients, they say, you know, I'm so glad that I captured this because my children are gonna understand me better because they saw what my parents were really like. They heard what my parents did and what they thought about. And I think that's gonna help my kids understand me better. If you're interested in having me record your loved ones telling their life stories, go to legacyinterviews.com   to find out more. Alright. Let's go back to this interview with Michael Ring.  

You know, I hadn't thought of this question until now, but you may be one of the best poised people to answer the, the, the thing that I'm always saying that I think that,   ag land could be demonetized or will be demonetized by Bitcoin.   You're one of the few people that both understands ag and understands Bitcoin.   What do you think of that? Do you think that Bitcoin is going to take out some of the monetary premium in in Agland?  

[01:24:41] Unknown:

I doubt the statement that I'm the best positioned just because I don't think I'm that smart,   or knowledgeable about this subject.   I think that we will have unprecedented levels of private equity come into farmland,   and that   that will be the only thing, the only thing   that staves off  

[01:25:04] Unknown:

falling land prices like we saw in the eighties. I don't know that we're gonna see private equity come in. How private equity is into is going to run into a band saw in the next six months, and it is because   there is no hedge fund on earth right now that is making better returns than the Bitcoiners.   None. Zero. So now they're gonna have to justify   all of their expenses that they are. All their big salaries, all their fancy offices, They're now going to have to justify why would we do this for you to trade and all these things where you get a 20% return   where Bitcoin and gold   is getting a 100% return.  



[01:25:46] Unknown:

I   that is a great point. And I guess I hadn't fully considered that. However,   I think we still have another ten years of   the older demographic   that won't switch as fast, And I think they want to stick their money in land   at a private equity level.  

[01:26:05] Unknown:

Maybe. I've got it. I've, like, I just can I just go on this? This is my so, like, I think that   I think we, the boomers are discovering something that is going to, to shock them,   which is,   the amount of money that they've been saving and that they have as wealth   is going to be liquidated to pay for their healthcare,   which is going to continue to go up and up and up. And one of the ways that they have stored their wealth is in the equity of their house Mhmm. And in their stock portfolio.   And no one that is in the younger generations coming up has the   money to buy their houses at the prices that they have been told from Zillow and that they've told their financial planner that their house is. And that really what they're gonna get is 60%   of whatever that house was worth, which is gonna be nowhere near what they anticipated.  

And there's going to be so much wealth   that evaporates   because it was just it was just paper wealth. It was just written on a spreadsheet.   And I think a whole bunch of money   is going to dry up. I think the same thing with stocks. Right? Like, I think unless you continue corporate America where young people are given jobs, where they're given a four zero one k, and then that four zero one k every single week like clockwork   turns a bit of their salary into purchasing the stock market, which ultimately   became too complicated. So everybody did it in index funds. Mhmm. That is going to go away. It's it's going to come to an end because as corporate America doesn't keep these people employed,   the boomers houses are going to go down, and there's not going to be people to buy the stock market that there was before. And you're not gonna be able to liquidate it when you need it the most because of your health care costs.  



[01:27:52] Unknown:

Okay.   So I think that   a lot of people get to be right   given the right timeline.   Because   if you this is something we see in options a lot, where if you pick the right time duration, you're right, but a lot of times, you don't.   And so what you're saying about them liquidating this,   that all happens in the next ten, twelve, fifteen years.  

[01:28:17] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. I would I would say probably faster. I think probably five years. I think yeah. I think we're talking five years. Okay.  

[01:28:24] Unknown:

So with that in mind,   if we keep having inflation   to where they see their home prices may even continue to go up. Okay? Yeah. Because they might still have more zeros, but their buying power is going down.   Do you think how much do you think that's going to affect their realization of what's happening if their buying power goes down versus their are they still just gonna run out of money? Doesn't matter. They're gonna run out of money. I I don't, you know, I don't know. Five years may, as I'm saying this out loud, that may be too fast. But my my point is  

[01:28:59] Unknown:

as the government has to print money in order to be able to meet their financial obligations, the buying power of boomers is going to go away before they realize it. So they're not going to realize   just how much   healthcare costs are going to be, and they're not going to realize that there's nobody around to be able to buy their houses. And so this, this, their actual,   if we if we were to call it, like, their actual buying power   is going down   much, much faster than anybody perceives. And this is why inflation is an actual evil.   It's like they're being taxed to death,   and they don't even know it. And they're looking at young people and they're like, oh, poor young people,   but we're really wealthy. But what they don't realize is, like, no. Actually, you're not. You're you're having all of your wealth sucked away too.  



[01:29:49] Unknown:

Yeah. I the the the timeline thing is really just the ants like, that's the unknown, I think,   is, like, we can sit here and be like, yeah. This is probably gonna happen. And then we just   that would that would be the part that would make you look like a genius is whether you knew what the timeline was. Yeah. I mean, in taking an options contract and being two weeks, you know, too early means you don't you don't win anything. You lost it all. Yep. Shoulda rolled shoulda rolled forward.  

[01:30:20] Unknown:

What do you think the future of Bitcoin is?  

[01:30:24] Unknown:

You've looked at them I assume you've looked at the math of, like, okay.   If these   highest decile or whatever percentage of people   owned this little itty bitty percentage of one Bitcoin   divided across all of them,   what do you think the price would go to? Have you ever looked at that in theory?  

[01:30:47] Unknown:

If I have, I couldn't say anything meaningful about it. Okay.  

[01:30:53] Unknown:

I've I've looked at some numbers from a couple family office services, mainly just one.   And,   I mean, it looks pretty good to me because there's   there's a lot more wealthy people with no Bitcoin than you think.   And if they jumped on it,   I I hope that everyone would be on it too because   it's   it has a lot of potential.  

[01:31:21] Unknown:

So say more plainly what you mean. Well, I mean that if you take  

[01:31:26] Unknown:

the top few percent   of people that are   extremely wealthy in the world, not just in The US, in the whole world,   and you divide it across   the amount of Bitcoin that there is,   there's not very much Bitcoin to go around relative to the people that have all the money in the world.   So what do you think happens when they decide it's a good idea? Yeah. The price goes crazy. I mean, right now, there isn't even enough  

[01:31:56] Unknown:

Bitcoin out there remaining   for all the people that are current millionaires to have one Bitcoin. Mhmm. And that's, like, one of those staggering thoughts where you're like, yeah. But they're so rich. And it's like, well, there's just if they if they whenever they start running towards the door   Mhmm. There's only so many people that can get through the door.  

[01:32:15] Unknown:

Yeah. So, like, just from the statistics side of it like that, I think that it's it has a ton of potential. Like, it's   it's unfathomably   good potential.   And along with that, you know, I've I've talked to some people that   locally that are like, well, I think there's   other better technologies   than Bitcoin that still do the same thing, but they're more efficient.   And I really do take kind of the Jack Mallers approach of, like,   no. That is the point. Like, it's supposed to cost money to mine. It's supposed to be hard   to it's supposed to cost you something for the transaction. That's what helps   keep the value in it. And it's moving trapped energy.  



[01:32:56] Unknown:

So Yeah. I think that that's the big thing I've been thinking a ton about, which is, like, I don't think we have enough I don't think this is all that profound.   But we do not have enough energy to do the things that we want to do because like the AI that we're talking about, that is all energy, right? It's super organized energy into   complex thought,   and computation.   And, and Bitcoin is going to require energy. And whatever manufacturing you're trying to bring back or reshore, that's going to require energy.   And so,   you know, until we start seeing   giant towers being built, you know, smoke stacks and things like that,   we're we're not preparing for the future. That's that's the most important thing. More important in your city   than,   new skyscrapers going up is likely new new smoke stacks going up. Nuclear, you mean? Like, cooling, cooling towers? Cooling towers. Yeah. That's what I mean. Smoke stacks. Yeah. Which I live Or coal. I don't care. You do it all. I it doesn't matter to me. Whatever it takes to generate energy. You know, it's funny. Illinois  

[01:34:03] Unknown:

actually is   pretty robust on nuclear, and they're   really they've they've gotten some pretty lucrative offers already at most of the plants   in Illinois for,   data centers next to them. Like, they're we thought our light water reactor at Byron was gonna get shut down, like, ten years ago, and now they're putting a data center right across the road,   to get,   power off peak or whatever.   And that's gonna revitalize our   area well, extend it. Like, we live in a really nice area, but it's going to extend the the potential life   of that sis that whole deal   for who knows how   long from that being there and the jobs it's it's gonna bring in. And we're already like, our base is pretty manufacturing heavy, so we have a decent amount of jobs.  

But that's gonna be a higher tier of of,   salary   for sure.  

[01:35:05] Unknown:

My,   conspiracy   theory is that,   this part's not the conspiracy. Like, we are going to see energy, electricity rates go up, so everybody's gonna pay more. You're gonna pay more in your lease. You're gonna pay more at your house for your electricity. Like, you're gonna pay more for electricity because demand is going up and supply is relatively   flat for a long time.   But I think, suddenly,   we will no longer see anybody talking about climate change. And I think that's because   the climate change operation   was funded by people that wanted   to constrain the supply   of energy,   and it was not actually I mean, they're they certainly got people to become ideological   about climate change, but the way that that kept getting propagated was by energy companies that wanted to keep the the supply constrained so that that way prices would stay up. But now we are going to have   so much demand that they won't need that anymore, and we will see climate change and the conversation around that be   way, way smaller than what are you doing to bring the price of electricity down.  



[01:36:13] Unknown:

Do you think that that will for the ideologically  

[01:36:16] Unknown:

invested people, do you think it will just kind of pivot over to, like, clean planet stuff? Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Probably that. Like but they, like there's no way they know anything that that that very many of them having been somebody that, like,   experienced what really strongly ideological people thought about things like GMOs and pesticides. Most of them are just receiving this information.   And suddenly, it's going to be about,   you know, energy access and making sure that I don't even think it'll be about clean nothing. I think it'll be about, like, how can we make this more fair, and how can we get people more electricity? I think   the the government subsidies into clean energy, that's all going away because there just won't be pressure for it.  

Because people are gonna be so concerned about the price of their electric bill because it's going to go through the roof.  

[01:37:08] Unknown:

Do you think that   so I've seen a ton of stuff in the last year about, like, the a 16 z American dynamism movement   or,   just manufacturing,   reshoring, anything like that. Hard tech is a big like, a good prominent buzzword right now.   And there's a lot of people talking about energy. There's a lot of atomic companies coming online.   Do you think that we can outrun that? Like, it's obviously gonna be a big deal.   You think we'll just grow faster than it won't really be that big of a deal? But it'll be really important, and there'll be a lot of it, but it won't be, like,   a a problem. Like, we'll just fill the   demand  

[01:37:49] Unknown:

quickly. You mean for electricity? Yes. For yeah. For energy. I don't know how, man. Like Yeah. I don't I think I think the demand is going to outstrip   the supply. And, like, one thing I think we'll see   is   whatever legislation has been holding back people from doing stuff, like, I think that'll probably go away. I think   suddenly a bunch of schools are going to develop nuclear engineering   programs. I think people that got,   spent several years on nuclear subs are gonna suddenly   have jobs,   waiting for them in the private sector,   because those are the people that those are the only people running nuclear reactors at at scale right now are people in nuclear subs.  

And so there's gonna be And the rednecks in my backyard. Yeah. And you're that that's right. But, like, there's just not that many people out there. And and we went for so long without training those people. Entire programs were shut down. So that but even if you start producing those people, it's just like producing a navy. You can't produce a navy in a generation. It takes three, maybe four generations to create a navy just so you have experience and knowledge and know how. I think that's gonna be true of of electricity and energy. Whether it's four generations, I don't think it's quite that long, but it's gonna take time.   And, and in the meantime,   every single time you are typing a question into grok or speaking to it, it is using an enormous amount of energy, way more than a light bulb.  



[01:39:16] Unknown:

Well, I just hope that they don't take my liquid fuels away. I hope that we can we can,   keep using those indefinitely in the meantime. You mean, like, diesel and gasoline?   Yeah. Well, I no. I don't I don't seriously believe that. I just I I think that,   I think we will still have to rely on fossil fuels a lot through this process while we're building all that stuff. It's gonna be incredibly important. I   It's   gonna   be incredibly important.  

[01:39:42] Unknown:

I I don't think fossil fuels are going anywhere. I think I think we're gonna see the return of coal. I think I like,   I think we like, the demand for energy is going to be so high and people   in that are even the people that are renting, they're gonna look at their rentals and they're gonna find out, oh,   I'm paying now 10% of my income for electricity.   That's when you're gonna see them be like, maybe I don't care so much about climate change because it's it I think that's the demand it's gonna be.   I'm I'm I've been getting solar quotes the last two weeks, and you're telling me that I should probably Solar's great. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah. Absolutely. I think solar is gonna be big. I mean, I saw I I haven't been able to verify this. I tried to look it up that China is starting to do that kind of sci fi idea where they harvest solar electricity   from outside the orbit and then shoot it and then beam it down. These are the things that are gonna happen. That's the only way we'll leapfrog over   over coal and and, I don't know, that we'll leapfrog over nuclear. Like, if if somebody can find one of those kind of breakthrough technologies,   then we will be in a different game. But unless we do something wild like that, we're bringing Kohl's coming back.  



[01:40:55] Unknown:

Well, there's only I forget. There's only, like, 40,000 people that work in the coal industry now. It's pretty small at the moment. So I'm sure they could  

[01:41:03] Unknown:

I I'm sure there's mines not in use that they could bring back. Yeah. And I now I've seen that the Chinese operate, like, fully remote coal mines where there are guys living in cities,   and then they sit in front of these, like, bank of TVs. Oh, yeah. And they're, like, controlling,   like, Cat stuff. Yeah. And it's amazing.  

[01:41:22] Unknown:

Cat has some really cool tech for that.   That's that's come really far in the last decade.  

[01:41:29] Unknown:

Well, we got to talk about Bitcoin and my favorite things here at the end. Is there anything, anything we should have brought up?  

[01:41:37] Unknown:

Well, I do have one little story about the Damon for you. I know how much you like the Damon. And, I mean, there's there's plenty of other things we could talk about, succession or social technologies, but that's up to you.   But do you wanna,   just talk for a second about how you think about the daemon?  

[01:41:58] Unknown:

Yeah. So the daemon is the idea that,   inside of you or inside of me, I'll just speak from my own personal experience,   is that there is a voice   that   tells you kind of direction. Hey. You should do this. Hey. Go in this direction.   This is important.   And,   I do not have control over that voice. I don't tell it what to tell me. It is just something that is,   in me. And,   I so it's something that,   it's hard to describe. You know, is it an actual voice? I I don't believe I'm schizophrenic. Right? I'm not I'm not in it. I'm not it's not like crowding out my other thoughts. In fact, I have to be very cognizant and very patient and,   like, open myself up to this voice. But that voice, when I follow it,   guides me towards,   possibilities that I would not find if I was just operating in the world normally.  



[01:42:55] Unknown:

And is that   does it lead you well, or is it is it like an alchemist type thing where if you follow what you're supposed to, then it it kind of works out as long as you're diligent? Or is it just   here's the motivation you have to figure out how to apply it well?  

[01:43:12] Unknown:

Mine has been pretty clear. When I have read Carl Jung, I used to go around trying to wake people up to their daemon, and he was like, you know, who are you to do this? Right? Like, don't do this. And so I don't know. Maybe other people's guides them in the wrong direction or maybe maybe it gives you ideas, and if you're not prepared for those ideas, it can it can take you in bad places.   Mine   has guided me towards people that have been very helpful to me. It's guided me towards   doing things that I   I probably   wouldn't have done if I hadn't had this nagging voice in my mind, but that it ultimately, I look back and think those are some of my most valuable decisions.  



[01:43:54] Unknown:

Do you know,   do you know what the charges were   when they actually   sentenced Socrates to death?  

[01:44:04] Unknown:

Only something about, like, misleading kids, I think. Misleading the youth.  

[01:44:08] Unknown:

That was part of it. So there's two charges that they were actually able to get to kinda stick. The first one was around,   corrupting the youth, and that was basically teaching them his,   methods of reasoning,   more or less. And then the other one was actually impiety.   So impiety at the time so this is we gotta frame this just a little. This is in Athens. It's right after the Peloponnesian wars,   and   it was a really fragile time where the state had to really think about,   the social cohesion   and,   being united in terms of their politics.   And so this is this is Greek mythology area. Right? So you have the state   religion   that is the the word of Zeus, and these are the the way it works, and this is what we follow and whatever.  

And so at the time, religion   was an extension of the state. It was one and the same. It was how they controlled their populace. This is not a unique idea. This is what we've seen religion used for a lot.   And,   what Socrates was doing was he said that he had this thing called the demonion,   and it was what he called,   like, a an angel or a deity or a spirit within himself that was this inner voice.   And he was saying it was his intrinsic motivation.   It it   brought him towards,   certain ideas and it helped him develop his I don't I don't know if he would say it helped him develop his Socratic method, but he kind of applied his Socratic method to it to, like, figure stuff out if it was true and whatever.   And so him saying that   and teaching it to people,   along with this other idea of him saying the gods were   ideal forms rather than fallible men,   They were they didn't represent humans. They were they were like archetypes. They were ideal forms.  

That along with this idea of a demonion,   that is what he was sentenced for because it was him saying, I can think for myself   to the state.   And so that impiety charge was actually   about, I'm I'm defying the state by thinking.   Right? And so, like, today, we think that   we're so,   up in arms about free speech.   Then it wasn't even about free speech. It was your ability to have independent thought,   potentially,   within yourself. And I think that that's like, he was willing to say, no. This is such an important idea that I'm going to yes. I that is what I believe, and then I will die because of it. Because I'm saying, yes. I do have a daemon within myself.   And   I I totally accidentally   stumbled across,   this idea.  

If you take the that demonion in Greek and you move to Latin,   they the Romans actually had this   idea that they would attribute the same thing to a place.   So they would they would call it a genius   for a person, was their was their, demonion.   And then for a place, it was a genius loci, l o c I. And   I I was like, oh, that's what we do with land.   That's what we do with stewardship is we go to a piece of land, whether it's civil war or somewhere else, and we're saying, like, what does this land need? What what does it do best?   What is its purpose?  

And then, like,   it's not always clear. Like, you have to maybe farm it or run it run cows on it or something. And, like, you learn all kinds of things about the land that that you have to figure out   how to work with it rather than fight against that voice of what it's telling you.   And that is something that   I think there's different ways you can develop it, but it has a lot to do with experience and talking to other people that have also learned from the same land,   and just trying different things and then building intuition around it.  

[01:48:20] Unknown:

I like that a lot. And I also think that that goes,   probably worthwhile to talk about the the type of pasturing that you're that you and I have been talking about because I this idea would have been completely foreign to me had you not told me about,   the type of the way that you are running cattle on your land.  

[01:48:39] Unknown:

Yeah. And this is this is my brother's shtick a little bit more, but I can certainly talk about it. You know, naturally,   in the West,   historically,   like, when the during, like, the Lewis and Clark expeditions,   they went out there and they found grass that they said they could reach to the side while they were sitting on a horse, and they could pull it together and tie it over their lap. It was so   dense and so tall   in the Great Plains,   and   that was that would be exceptionally fertile land.   And   I believe the reason that it was able to be,   that fertile   was because of large roaming herds   where they would have tremendous amount of weight   come by,   and be concentrated on a certain area, and animals would graze there.  

And they would,   they would defecate there. They would walk everything in   and then   everything was trampled. They ate it. They knocked it down. Whatever.   Okay. Now what do they have to do? They have to move again.   Right? And they can't come back until   that has grown up again.   So they wouldn't bother. They would they would have a big wide ranging pattern they'd go in.   And,   not only were they going here and they were eating there and then they were moving off, they were doing it in tremendous amounts of intensity.   And   that created this natural system   that's this symbiotic   relationship   between the animal that's taking   the   nutrients off. They're eating the plant. They're creating this perfect carbon nitrogen ratio of manure, and they're putting it back on, and then they're walking it into the ground. So that that grass isn't just sitting there and oxidizing away when it dies.  

It's actually being incorporated back, and then there's a whole bunch of,   there's microbes   that are in the soil that are then   stimulated through that. And so you have a great biome.   And so we we copy that at a much, much smaller scale where we rotate our cattle around. And you don't really want them on the same area more than three days   to get back into a vegetative   state.   But   our rotations are often a few days longer than that just because it's a lot of labor.   And we are able   to get   a lot more tonnage off by doing that.   And I think that's getting a little bit more common, but there's still a lot of people that don't do it. And so it's kinda low hanging fruit to be more competitive by doing that. Mean to get tonnage off of it? It grows more grass per year. Yeah. Because it it's,   if if a plant is just in the state where it's growing as fast as it can to recover back up when when, after it gets eaten off really hard and and beaten down.  

It's it's shooting roots down at the same time, and it's growing up faster and being in that I believe it's called a vegetative state when it's when it's growing.   And then   you don't just, like, let it get there and head out and let it sit.   You time it correctly so you come back for another pass.   And by   resting it, not having cows there all the time, and you let it grow up, it shoots roots down about the equal amount. And so it actually comes back faster because it has all that root mass down there. Whereas if you have it mowed off like a golf course all the all the time, all summer, if you have cows in the same area,   then   it doesn't it can't jump back. It never gets a rest.  

And   that's why you you want cows on it for, like, three days and then you pull them off because you want it to get back into that undisturbed growing phase,   rather than in the stressed being eaten phase or or too big. Describe maybe in in detail  

[01:52:39] Unknown:

when you're talking about that loci, you know, like, we we wanna know what is this land want.   You can't just go and and apply that theory to  

[01:52:49] Unknown:

everything, or are you saying something different here? Yeah. So you really have to figure out what it's gonna be able to produce.   And so with every with every piece of land and this is this is where we get from, oh, that sounds good, kinda woo woo, like, figure out the,   stewardship   around it with this low side to practical. This sounds a little bit more boring. You have to figure out where you put your cross fences in   to be able to be the most cost effective with your cross fence while,   making a paddock   that you can stock in such a way   relative to the full size of the pasture that you're going to be able to create the right density   to be able to rotate them on a regular basis.  

And then also take into consideration,   we're going to need water access somehow   for these animals so they create the right roaming patterns   without destroying the land.  

[01:53:48] Unknown:

Like, a bunch of operational stuff like that. Does that Yeah. I think I remember Joseph one time talking about how   erosion happens on creeks not because of grazing animals, but because you don't have them there. Yeah. Normally, you would have grazing animals that would be finding a path to get down to the water, and they'd smooth out what what that area so that the banks would be more gentle sloping.   So as water rushes around there, it doesn't cave in,  

[01:54:15] Unknown:

parts of the of the the creek bed or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And and there's several reasons for that. There's the pushing down   the   the root mass, and then you have to   you're doing that cycle. Right? So you put the cattle on, but then when you take them off after they pushed it in and and maybe push some fresh seeds into the bed, you rest them, that grass grows up, you create deeper roots to hold the the dirt. Right? And then you're you're continually   adding root mass in those cycles   while you're firming the edges. But you cannot   over travel it either because it's  

[01:54:55] Unknown:

too much of a too much of that is a bad thing. Right? Yeah. I mean, I can see this. I have a creek behind my house, and I see, like,   when after Joseph described this to me, I was like, this makes perfect sense because I've never figured out why a creek would ever stay within its banks. Because right now, this thing's just   decaying, and you're watching these trees get taken out by it. But it's because there's nothing  

[01:55:18] Unknown:

to smooth that out. And it it doesn't it does depend on the   land, and you're you're fighting a losing battle of I think this is might be something Lyle Benjamin said to me one time. He's like, no. Everything's   been eroding since it was made there. Like, you're never gonna stop it. You're just slowing it down.   Right? And so different geographical areas are more extreme or less extreme.   And so we're just conserving, if you are if you will, conservation.  

[01:55:47] Unknown:

Well, I'm glad we got to fit that in. I would talk to you all day, but I've gotta get ready,   for for another thing. So, man, thank you so much for, for stopping in. If people wanted to learn   more about,   Silvermore or maybe potentially coming out and visiting you to get a mind break, where where would they go to find out more about that?  

[01:56:07] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that the easiest way to find me is probably on x at ringfamilyag,   but there's also ringfamilyagriculture.com,   and then both of those have links to the substack.   So, yeah, I I love it when people reach out, give me new ideas,   bring me novelty.  

[01:56:25] Unknown:

Well, alright, man. Thanks for coming by. Thanks for having me on. Thank you.