The Vance Crowe Podcast

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Host Vance Crowe is joined by NNZP is a proven manufacturing expert, engineer and an interesting character on X. 

They explore topics ranging from manufacturing, economics, to broader societal issues. In one particular episode, he converses with an anonymous guest named nnzp, who sheds light on the global industrial landscape, particularly focusing on how countries like China have gained control over material markets through strategic advantages in labor and environmental policies. nnzp discusses the implications of this control, including the loss of industrial know-how in the West due to stringent regulations and the retirement of skilled workers. 

The dialogue also covers the importance of energy in industrial processes, with nnzp advocating for nuclear power as a stable, efficient energy source over renewables. They delve into the effects of industrial policy on national security, economic self-reliance, and the challenges of innovation, where the balance between patenting and keeping trade secrets is debated. The episode ends with reflections on public trust, product quality, and the philosophical value of time, underlining the necessity of mentorship to pass on industrial expertise for future generations.

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• Click here to learn more about Legacy Interviews: https://www.legacyinterviews.com/ 

 

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They control that market. Theycan control the prices in that   market. They have, they have thelion's share of the production.   And so it's not, you know, weare a marginal producer.   And so if they want to subsidizemanufacturing in their world, in   in their economy, they candecide to subsidize the steel   part, which they do, and throughenergy, through labor laws and   things like that, and throughthrough pollution laws, and they   can tell those people to sell itto their domestic manufacturers   at a certain price and sell itto the world at a different   price. And they do   so. It's a, it's a, it's asupply chain. It's a, it's a   vertically integrated supplychain in Asia, and we don't   really have that verticallyintegrated supply chain anymore,   so our costs are much higher forthat reason alone, and then if   you, if you want to run a steelplan, and in America, in the   United States or Canada orWestern Europe, you basically   have to meet a lot of pollutionstandards and a lot of   other labor standards and OSHAstandards and regulations, and   those are very different thanwhat you find in Asia.  

And so there's a, there's aninheritive comparative   advantage. I don't saycompetitive advantage. It's a   comparative advantage because ofthe way they run their economy,   in my opinion, you know, steelseems like one of those things   that's like, yeah, we used tohave to produce steel back, you   know, in the industrial age.But, you know, do we, do we need   to be producing steel now, Idon't know, do you need to be   producing bridges and roads?Because a lot of the steel goes   into rebar and, you know,bridges. And do you want to   produce? Be able to produce anaircraft carrier   or any other type of ship ortruck or car,   I don't know it's up, up to, upto the public, right? I mean,   what they want to produce, Iguess. But there is a moment of   no return, and that moment mayhave come and gone to some   extent, where you lose enough ofthe know how, that you literally   can't restart it. And I thinkthere was a great article in the   Wall Street Journal probablythree or four years ago about   how we wanted to make a newicebreaker. And it's taking a   long time, because we'veforgotten how to you work with   the steel that we makeicebreakers out of. So that   talent basically was gone, andthey had to relearn how to work   with the steel that icebreakersare made out of. So they could   build a new icebreaker. Yeah, Iremember when I was working in   the shipping industry and youheard like, oh, it takes, you   know, two decades to build aNavy. And you think, like, how   is that possible? And then youactually start doing the   sailing, and you realize there'sso much to know that you   couldn't possibly put it all ina book. There's this, just like,   essence of things, that you haveto actually have the physical   skill and to imagine that we hadsome knowledge and then lost it   is, it's like, hard to imaginethat it can happen unless you've   ever been around a deep skilland realize, like, Oh, this is   so much more than you could putin a textbook. And that's   exactly right. And the doingteaches you so much of what you   want to do and what you don'twant to do, and not all that   goes in the book.  

And there is a there is ageneration that is retiring   right now. I'm 50 I'll be 56here shortly, and so I'm at the   tail end of that generation.I've got another 10 or 15 years   ago before I decide I'm going todo something. Maybe I'll do it   till I fall over, which becauseI kind of like it, but   there's a there's a generationthat is retiring that has not   been replaced in the UnitedStates, as far as technical   skill and knowledge, justknowledge, and I don't mean   educational technical skill. Imean technical skill learned on   the job   and doing what they're doing.  

And we do. We have not replacedthat with that. We have   continued to   innovate to some extent andoptimize so we need fewer and   fewer of those people for ouroutput. Our output has gone down   in say, the steel makingindustry or the aluminum making   industry or the magnesiumindustry, titanium went to zero   basically last year, because wedon't make any magnesium   anymore. Long story, but youknow, there's a skill set there   that we are not   continuing to build on. And.   Will atrophy, and we will, wewill have to import people to be   able to do it, because we won'thave the skills and knowledge to   do it anymore, which is a littlescary in my book. We exchanged   the Carl Sagan, you know, quoteand and that, that is the world   that I see, which is where we'returning into a service and   information economy, and we'veforgotten how to do hard things,   right? Well, and it seems likeit's pretty dangerous if you're   saying, you know, ourbattleships get built, our   aircraft carriers, our vehicleswith steel, because if you were   to get into war and somebodywere to cut that off from you,   then you you'd be done building,or you'd and you'd have to   rebuild an industry while you'rein the middle of in a war, being   in a war, correct? And, youknow, the interesting part is,   everybody brings up World WarTwo and and the Americans can do   whatever they want when theywhen they have to, right? And   look at what we did during WorldWar Two.  

Okay, I'm gonna take just amoment to hop in here and   introduce the show and do acouple of housekeeping items to   start off. I should probablyintroduce the guest. This is   nnzp. He is a guy that I havemet through x and then become   friends with, but he wants toremain anonymous. He builds   cutting edge factories and hasdesign technologies, and he says   it really doesn't benefit himmuch for people to know who he   is. He's not trying to get anykind of fame or anything. So he   talks about his ideas withouthaving his name attached to   them. And I am totally okay withthat. He is not a guy that   throws stones at other people,so his anonymity isn't a way for   him to hide behind trees androcks and be able to snipe   people instead, he has reallygreat ideas. He's somebody that   is fun to interact with. And Ihave been asking and inviting   him on the podcast for years andyears now, and it was only   recently that he agreed to dothe podcast and we decided that   we would talk about hisknowledge of things like   minerals and mining andmanufacturing and how this   impacts our own country. Andthis is a great conversation. I   was so glad to do it. I did itfrom a wintry day here in St   Louis, Missouri. You know, ifyou are a Vance Crowe podcast   listener, you've probablynoticed that this is the first   episode I've done in more than amonth, I decided that I was   going to make a deliberatechoice to only do interviews   that I thought would be reallypowerful. There was a stretch   there where I was doing theweekly podcast, and sometimes I   would just call up somebody andbe like, Hey, man, I need a   guest. Let's just talk. And thatwas okay for a long period of   time, but now, because mybusiness legacy interviews has   grown so substantially, itdidn't really fit, and so I've   taken some time, and this hasgiven me the opportunity to   really wear down people likennzp and some other guests I   have coming up to sit down andhave a long form conversation.  

So I mentioned legacyinterviews. Yes, we have been   busier than ever. The Christmasholiday season, we exploded, but   we have continued that peoplerealizing, Hey, mom and dad or   grandma and granddad aren'tgoing to be around forever, and   it is totally worth it for me tocall up legacy interviews and   find out what kind of interviewcan I do with them so we can   preserve their stories, theiradventures, their experiences,   their wisdom, and be able topass it on to future   generations. So if you have beenthinking about doing this for   one of your loved ones, Iimplore you, don't wait around.  

There is no benefit once you'vehad the idea to do it, that you   might put it off, it's not goingto get better with age. In fact,   the only thing that gets betterwith age is the actual   recording. But waiting to recordit comes with its own risk. And   I would really encourage youthat if you've been thinking   about it, go tolegacyinterviews.com and sign up   for me to contact you. I callevery single person that wants   to do these legacy interviews,and once we've come to an   agreement, then we have somebodycall and schedule, and it all   works out great. It is turninginto a really robust and   beautiful business. And I'm ifyou'd like to support the show   and you'd like to get thisincredible heirloom for your   family, go tolegacyinterviews.com   All right, let's head back tothe interview with nnzp.  

Well, World War Two, we were aleader in the world already   for all of these materials, andwe had giants of industry. Now,   it helped that, you know, ithelped that our lands were   pretty much unscathed, exceptfor Hawaii,   by the war, and we were able tocontinue to build on that. But   what we did in Europe, while wewere destroying in Japan, while   we were destroying theirindustry.   We were continuing to build oursfrom a fairly good base, and so   we just literally overwhelmedthem with volume.   Could that happen again? Who'ssitting in that situation today   is who? What I would ask andwho's sitting in that situation   today is China. China couldliterally overwhelm you with   volume,   and not only people, but steeland aluminum and titanium and   and just manufacturing capacityin general, they could just   literally overwhelm you like involume, like we did in World War   Two.  

So we talked about steel. Whatare these other metals? You   know, I know these numbers, butaluminum I use for foil and   what do I Yeah, aluminum. Youknow, aluminum, we've shrunk 33%   while China's gone frombasically zero to the to the   world leader, having 60%   and it's used in everything.Cars, f1, 50s, are made out of   aluminum. Today, the body panelsand the hoods are made out of   aluminum. A lot of power trainsare made out of aluminum.   Electric motors and B vs aremade out of aluminum,   you know. So your transmissioncase aluminum. Airplanes mostly   aluminum,   you know. So lot of uses foraluminum, including as an   industrial metal for your tincans, which are aluminum cans,   and your tin foil, which isaluminum foil, right? So, China   is the world leader in aluminummagnesium, which is used for all   sorts of alloying purposes. Butit also has one huge use or two   huge uses. The huge use isdesulfurization of steel. You   cannot make high strength steelwithout magnesium. It is a   catalyst that takes outimpurities. So that is the major   use for magnesium is the makingof steel through the Fisher   Fisher process. So you mix itin, and you convert it, and it   desulfurizes, takes the sulfurout of the steel, which is an   impurity. It also makes ductileiron through the FIS process.  

That's the fissure process.Steel process is a completely   different process, sorry. And,   and that creates ductile ironfor from gray iron, so it   changes the structure of thematerial. And that's what we use   for, you know, steering knucklesand rear differentials and train   couplings and train, you know,rate, train wheels and things   like that. That's all ductileiron. And then you have the   other use for magnesium, besidescasting into forms, is is making   titanium and titanium. It takesover one pound of magnesium to   make a pound of titanium. It isthe catalyst that turns   titanium, you know, it takes theimpurities out and turns it into   titanium. So it's magnesium isright next to lithium and sodium   on the periodic table. And soit's very super reactive. It   reacts with everything,   and we use it as purificationand other things. So, and then   there's with the rare earth. So,so for titanium, we went from   basically the world leader 84%of titanium in 1995   to basically zero in 2023   now I you know, Meanwhile, Chinahas gone from, what is it? 7000   What is this? Metric tons? Tons,7000 tons to 26 260,000   tons, while we've basically gonefrom zero. Now, titanium is used   in a lot of military products,airplanes and and all kinds of,   all kinds of things, a superlightweight, super strong metal.  

Then you have rare earths, wherewe've started to get involved   again. And I see 2023, they'resaying that we have, you know,   43 metric tons of mineproduction, which it was up from   zero in 2010 Meanwhile, Chinahas gone from zero to 240,000   and owns about 70% of thatmarket. So, you know, when you   think about the big industrialmetals, major metals, pig iron,   you know, this is the from theUSGS website and there. And so   this is what we mine, what wepull out of the ground? Well,   no, they have a report, okay?And so they give reports on   mining. They give reports onprocessing, you know, smelting,   things that nature. So it's soit's a little different. The   only one that's mining that Iquoted was rare earth. The rest   of it is tons produced of rawmaterial. So pig iron. China has   68% of the world's output. Wehave two raw steel, they have 53   we have four. Aluminum, theyhave 59% we have five magnesium,   they have 88%   we have basically zero. I knowthere's a startup out in   California that's trying to doit from seawater.  

Titanium we have they have 79%we have basically zero rare   earths. They have 70% we haveabout 12 up from zero in 2010   and it's all basically relatedto the one mine out in out in   California that was shut downbetween 95 and 2000 so they   basically control the metalsmarkets, the major metals   markets. And if you wanted toturn these things on you, of   course, like you said earlier,you have to have the expertise.   But how long does it take tobring this back online? If you   were like, all right, allsystems go, flip all the   switches, it would take probablysomewhere between five years and   15 years, depending on what itwhat what it is, right? Even if   you threw all the money at it inthe world, and, you know, I, I   once told a head of purchasingone time, it's at some point,   there's no amount of money thatmakes a difference. You know,   all that, all it takes is time,   and you have to do the work,right? You can't speed it up   with money.  

So I mentioned the danger of, ifyou go to war, what else should   people be thinking about as theyas they hear these numbers   seemingly to have crashed. Ithink it affects our costs for   manufacturing in the UnitedStates. I mean, we have to buy   from,   we have to buy a lot of thesethings from the world market   because we, frankly, just don'tmake enough of them,   and our prices are high becauseof our environmental regulations   and labor practices and OSHApractice, OSHA regulations and   other regulations, so we are notcompeting on a level playing   field, and that that makes ourproducts much higher price than   than others. I'm not saying thatwe should,   that we should do away with allour environmental policies and   our labor policies and blah,blah, blah. I'm not, I'm not   saying any of that. What I'msaying is, is that   the people that say that, well,it's a it's a competitive   market. Yeah, it's a competitivemarket, but it's not, it's not a   fair market. If you want to buya, you know, like Tupperware,   say, Tupperware sent all oftheir stuff overseas. I think   they're bankrupt. I could talkabout them now. They sent all of   their stuff. They made it all inAmerica, then they sent it all   overseas, right? And you couldbuy a Tupperware bowl for a buck   versus it used to cost you, youknow, a couple bucks in the   States, right? But the realityis, you know, the the the   working conditions and theenvironmental conditions and   other things to get to thatdollar reduction that was, that   was worth something, right? Andbut because we transferred those   issues offshore to the otherside of the world, we're good,   they're not good. I mean, it'sokay because it's over there,   right? And the reality is,there's more, there's probably   more pollution going into theworld from that side of the   world than what we had overhere. But we're okay because   it's on that side of the world.Well, I tell people, it's still   in the world, right? If they'rereally interested,   they would, they would beinterested in that so, and if   they're really interested inhaving, you know, good jobs   versus, you know, service jobs,where everybody's going to sell   each other a pizza, you know,I'm going to sell you a pizza   and I'm going to collect my myprofit, and then you're going to   sell me a pizza back, and you'regoing to collect the profit   back. Is that really, you know,both of those add to GDP. But   did we get did we go anywhere?Yeah, and you have the problem   that, like as companies, arecontinuing to try and add more   to their bottom line, orcontinue to drive their stock   price up if you move your stuffover to China. So then you save   on labor costs. Eventually youget to a point where, like,   Yeah, but we got to keepgrowing. And the way we're going   to grow is to lower our cost togoods sold. And so we're going   to make the plastic a littlethinner. We're going to make the   lids, you know, a little bitlike, less sturdy. And then you   go down this path whereeventually their stuff isn't   markedly high quality, so youdon't use it. So you either you   look for another brand, oryou're just stuck in this world   of crappy products. Well, yeah.And I think, you know some of   that's the old plannedobsolescence, you know, and you   know, I know some internationaland General Motors freezers that   are still running in northernMichigan. I helped moved one   couple years ago, a GeneralMotors freezer, right? Still   running,   yeah. I mean, that's exactlywhat I want. I want a dishwasher   that has those big funk thunkbuttons, because when we moved   into our house, it's a 1960shouse, the dishwasher was   original, and it worked,awesome. It had no pre you know,   had no water flow issues. Itprobably used a lot of water,   but that thing got everythingcleaned. And now I've got one   with digital buttons thatsometimes the digital buttons   don't work, and some.  

Sometimes it doesn't turn on,right? I just want the big,   like, clunky analog thing,instead of everybody liking my   stuff, Wi Fi connected, yeah, Imean, and, yeah, I think there's   some of that. I think, Ihonestly think B vs are sort of   that way to battery electricvehicles. You know, they're kind   of throwaways, you know. I mean,you're going to use them for a   while. They're not going to beon the road, you know, in in 20   years. Is that right? I don'tknow. This is not my   perspective. I don't know,unless they come away with a way   to swap out batteries, which Iknow China has some companies   that are doing swap outbatteries, but,   you know, those batteries aren'tgoing to last there. That's just   the nature of the battery pack.You know, it's like, you know,   rechargeable battery state and Iwill get better. They'll get a   lot better. But there arereasons   why we have certain things andand why certain things don't   last long, as long as they usedto lot of is thrifting. The   thrifting is a thing, and that'swhat you were talking about.  

We're going to thrift the we'regoing to thrift the product down   by reducing walls or taking outthings or, you know, there was   an article in the Wall StreetJournal about an appliance   company just, you know,cheapening up products by not   painting them, not paintingparts of them, right? It was in   the Wall Street Journal lastweek, I think, or earlier this   week, you know. So that's that'sknown as thrifting, and it's   real.   And, you know, we can do some ofthat. We can change materials.   We can do some other things. Wecan, you know, but at some   point, you know, people wantthings that work and but we've   we've grown, we've become athrowaway world. My sense is   that all roads lead back toinflation. You probably already   know where I'm going to this.But like, of course,   corporations are trying to dothis because their costs to the   to, like, the raw materials justkeeps going up and the like,   there's no way they can put asmuch value into it, because they   need that planned obsolescence.They need to have the you   continue to buy things, becausemoney is turning over so much   faster, whereas when you have aharder money, people will be   much more careful about whatthey buy, but they want to buy   something only one time. Yeah, Ithink that inflation is in our   future. I think it almost has tobe, given our debt levels   and but we've already seen ahuge amount of inflation since,   since 2019,   and I'm not, COVID was a bigpart of that. We threw a lot of   money at supply when supplychains were breaking down, but   that caused a second round ofinflation in in wages and   services and other things thatis still rippling through the   industry,   through the country period. Youknow, wages are up   significantly. And I don't, youknow, including in the company   that I own and run, and I don'tbegrudge anybody that, but I   have to pass it on, which meansthat they're going to pay more   for stuff. And so there is a,you know, there is a circular   factor, as you you know,inflation feeds on inflation,   until we have some sort of eventwhere we   where the markets break down andthere's too much supply, you   know. So inflation is a supplydriven issue, whether it's   monetary or goods. You know, ifthere's only, you know, 10 of   something versus 100 ofsomething, the 10 will be more   expensive, right? It's, it's,there is a supply piece to that,   that that is important, andthat's what we saw during COVID.  

I mean, we saw a huge amount ofmoney being dished out to people   in checks from our government   while supply chains werebreaking down and everybody was   staying at home. And this iswhere I always joke about, you   know, electricity from theoutlet, Wi Fi, from the air,   water, from the water from thetap, right? I mean, nobody,   nobody cares until they can'tget those things right. And they   have most people, I don't knowmost people. Maybe that's way   too broad, but a lot of peoplehave no idea what it takes to   get the water to your faucet orthe electricity to your outlet,   or the Wi Fi that's in the air,or the garbage groceries,   groceries to the grocery store,garbage away from your house.  

You know there are truckdrivers, and there are linemen,   and there are gas linemen andelectric linemen. There are all   sorts of people that have tomake things to keep all of those   things going and repair things.And those people were called   Essential workers, you know, andwe all worked through COVID.   It in our factories. I nevermissed a day in a factory. And   you know, that's what kept thewheels on the bus right? But   there's a lot of folks thatdon't understand that the wheels   are on the bus because wemanufacture things and we fix   things, and we we get out of ourhouse, we walk outdoors, take   the risk and do what we need todo. And if we don't do that,   then you can order all you wanton Amazon. It's not going to   show up because it wasn't madeor it can't get to you.  

Yeah. I mean, I can feel thisstill as a issue in my world,   not just the supply chains, butthe high demand on labor. I went   to get my truck work done, itwas a problem that only the   dealership could handle. Like Itook it to somebody else, and   they're like, Yeah, this is toofar into the engine for us to   work on. And when you go to callthe dealership, it's three weeks   to get in to get an appointment,and you're like, Yeah, but I   need this fixed now. And andlike, doesn't matter. Doesn't   matter how bad you need itfixed. Doesn't matter how. I   mean, you could maybe use moneyto try and jump ahead in the   line. But then, to your point,you just further inflation keeps   going up, because the the supplyof people that can actually fix   these problems is so low. Yeah,I think that's right. And I   mean, I will tell you that laboris more available today than it   was two years ago.  

It is in our area. Itunemployment doubled. I can get   people to come in   and work,   you know, pretty muchimmediately now, whereas two   years ago, it was virtuallyimpossible,   and labor, labor went upsubstantially. I think we're up   about 35%   all in,   you know, from from 2020,   so it's and that ripples throughthe economy, right? I mean, you   know, I, you know, all mysupplies are up. All my   everything that I buy is up from2019, everything, some of them   as much as double,   right? And it has not come down.And, and we're continuing to   make some policy mistakes, Ithink that will continue to   drive that   such as, I love the planet asmuch as anybody, but affordable,   abundant, available energy isthe key to everything, and it is   not windmills and solar panels,which are intermittent energy.  

There has to be base load power,and it has to be abundant.   So basically, all of thosethings that you are putting up   in the terms of wind and sun,unless you have a storage device   somehow, and you can store a lotof energy, you have to build   redundant energy in the form ofnatural gas, beaker plants, or   nuclear, or burn coal or nuclearfull time. I mean, they're coal   or natural gas full time. Therehas to be a base load power,   because people want power whenthey want power.   It's not like, you know, theyare very accepting. It's like   water, it's like the internetnow, right? They want it when   they want it, which is rightnow, whenever they decide. And   so you know, if you tell themthe sun will shine tomorrow, you   know, and you can have somepower, or the wind will blow   tomorrow, that doesn't work. Sowe have to come up with a plan   that that satisfies that. And ifwe have that plan, we talk about   robotics, and we talk about AI,   all of those things are massivepower hogs,   right? And so you need abundant,affordable, available energy to   solve some of these problems atorders of magnitude more than we   have right where you're talkingabout we need to generate Not,   not just like, oh, let's bringback on the plants that we had   before that we've shut down. Butlike many, many, orders of   magnitude more, because we needa bottomless well, we need as   much energy as we can produce.Because whoever can produce more   energy are the ones that canmake the   the AI give you the the answersto really incredibly difficult   problems. Can, you know, serveas service? Can smelt, you know,   steal all these things, butokay, like we're in agreement   with that. What are youbuilding? Are you building   nuclear? You're gonna go send ageneration of kids to go become   nuclear engineers. All the onesthat did it before got their   asses handed to him. Yeah, theysure did. They, you know, I   think, you know, China'sbuilding everything. They're   going to build more coal plantsin the next five years than   exist on the face of the planettoday.  

They're building nuclear they'regoing to, they're going to put   online the first thorium nuclearreactor before us. We developed   it.   But they're going to put itonline. And what is a thorium   nuclear thorium salts, asthorium is a radioactive   substance, and it they it's thenext generation Modular Reactor,   or new generation ModularReactors, the fuel that they   use, instead of using uraniumand some other things. And it's   the way I read it. It'svirtually meltdown proof.   So and they can use it in small,small batches. I mean, like the   size of a baseball will power acity for 20 years. I mean, it's,   it's pretty incredible stuff.But that's nuclear in general.  

Nuclear is when you talk aboutenergy sources. You know, you,   you not only talk about thesource. But you talk about the   density of the source. And ifyou talk about, what is the most   dense energy that we know of, itis, is radioactive materials,   right? And the next one is, iscoal or oil. And then you move   up the chain of hydrocarbons,and finally you get to, you   know, wind and solar and and andwater, right? So you got to talk   about the density of energy andhow to do that, and that's why   China is still building coalplants. They're building   everything, solar, wind, coal,nuclear, natural gas, whatever   they can get their hands on.They're building power in   massive amounts. So mysuggestion would currently is,   is nuclear, and the people thatI that say to me, Well, yeah,   but we've had all theseproblems. I mean, yeah, we've   had, we've had some issues, butI think there's new technology   out there. Our technology hasnever been bad. It's always been   a failure of cooling,   that is, that has caused theproblem, except for in the in   the Russian reactors, which hasa void, a negative void problem,   as I understand it from readingand and things like that. It was   a, it was a design flaw,   and so but we've also hadnuclear powering our Navy for   how many years, how manydecades,   and seem to be doing pretty goodthere, right?  

We have a pretty good handle onthat, and we train a lot of   nuclear engineers through ourNavy,   and so they're out there. I havea good friend, one my best   friend, and in high schoolbecame a navy Nuke, and then in   the 90s, 80s, I guess 88   you know, he's an environmental,environmental engineer now, but,   but, you know, I think thatthat's The source of the future,   and we need to get out of ourown way and figure it out. I   mean, even even water. If youwant to solve the water problem,   it takes energy, justdesalination, and it takes   electricity,   right? You want to make lithium,it's it's electricity. You know,   you want to make magnesium, it'selectricity. You want to make   steel, it's electricity. Itsounds like Trump is looking to   come in. I mean, he's talkedabout how much more energy we   need. Do you get the sense thatthis new administration is   prepared to go the distance thatyou would need to go? I don't   know. I mean, I have my hopesright, and I think that he's   trying to change the direction.He certainly changed the   direction and the conversationthat we were having on China   in his last administration, andbrought to light that so can he   do that for energy? I hope hecan,   and I hope he can for somemanufacturing. And I'm not   saying we need to bring backeverything, but certainly we   need to. We need to be some wehave to have some self   sufficiency.  

America, United States, or NorthAmerica, is an is an amazing   continent from a resourceperspective. There's virtually   nothing like it, if you excludeAfrica, which is, you know, is   an amazing resource continent aswell, but it has all kinds of   issues that. So the energy, it'sall kind of trapped there. All   the minerals and energy are kindof trapped right now because of   corruption and and governmentissues, right So, so the United   States and Canada stand out   in the world for what we can do.But we have to want to, yeah,   that's what it's going to say,is that, you know, right now to   the average person, they'relike, look, I plug, you know,   every single TV and computer andcell phone into my wall. I get   my electric bill and it allworks, and I have all the power   I need if the these other peopleare telling me that we're going   to bring back coal, I've beentold for years, this is like,   you know, the worst thing youcould do for the environment.  

You know, nuclear is so scary.What in the world would it take   to make it so the regulargeneral public would be   supportive of making this sortof step?   Wrap up change that you need todo to get orders of magnitude   more energy. It's, it's going totake higher, much higher prices,   and it's going to take outages,brownouts and blackouts. Oh,   man, I do not want to live in aworld where I'm enduring fucking   brownouts. I hear you, but Imean people, you know, you go   back to Machiavelli and hisquote on change, and people are   are very hesitant to change whenthey believe the system is is   working right, and they're theyfeel comfortable with the   system. So usually changehappens when they can no longer   stand what's going on.  

All right, we're going to take aquick break right here for me to   talk about a change that I havemade this year, which is that in   the past, I never used to talkabout exactly how I purchased   Bitcoin. I am one of thosepeople that does what's called   dollar cost averaging, whichmeans I just buy a little bit   every day or every week, maybethe amount that you would spend   on a cup of coffee, and Iconvert that into Bitcoin. And   on the old site that I used touse, I didn't really pay much   attention to the fees, until oneday I happened to log in and was   looking at stuff, and I waslike, Wait a second, I am giving   up a lot of Bitcoin to be ableto pay these fees. So I went   looking around for another site,and I had heard my friends,   people I trust, people that arein the space, and they were all   talking about a company calledriver.com so I went to river, I   checked it out, and I wasastonished to find out that if   you purchase your Bitcoinreoccurring on their site, they   actually waive all the fees. SoI was now going to be able to   stack just a little bit moreBitcoin. I'm not looking to do   huge purchases. I just want todo a little bit at a time, just   convert those dollars intoBitcoin. And if you've been a   person that's heard me talkabout Bitcoin, and I know   hundreds of you have written toask me about it, to ask where I   buy, to get suggestions on howto make it all work, don't   worry, I never Dox anybody, evenif you've been a hater online,   and then said, Well, maybe Ishould think about doing this.  

But if you're one of thosepeople, in the past, I've just   kind of said there's a bunch ofdifferent sites out there. Now   I'm saying I personally buy onriver, and I would recommend, if   you're looking for a site thatis trustworthy and one that you   know somebody is using, thenriver.com and if you use the   affiliate link in the shownotes, you will see that will   actually help both me the showbecause I'll get a few Bitcoin   for it, and it will also helpyou out. You will get some   bitcoin for it. So if you'vebeen thinking about doing it, go   to river.com using the affiliatelink below. We don't actually   have a formal relationship. Theyjust said, Hey, if you want to   do this, you can get support foryour own thing. So go check that   out. And let's get back to theepisode with nnzp.  

So it takes that sort of thing,and I we might be seeing it   right now in Germany. I mean,Germany is de industrializing at   a rate that that isunbelievable, because of their   lack of power, and they havebeen an industrial power because   they have had massive amounts ofpower, and they've decided to go   a different direction. Now, willthey stay on that path? I don't   know, right? Yeah, Texascertainly got a wake up call   when they had all those winteroutages, and then all of a   sudden they went to the thegovernment came around and was   like, All right, what do we haveto do to have a base load that,   no matter what, can handle allthis, and that's ended up being   what brought Bitcoin and thestate of Texas together was the   energy grid, because they couldbuild way more base load than   they needed. And the minerswould sit there and say, All   right, we'll, we'll suck up allthis energy, and then, if you   guys have, you know, higher thanaverage demand, you pay us to   turn our miners off, and now youstill have access to all that   energy. Well, you're seeing thatin AI too. I mean, there's the   conversations about restartingand nuclear plants that have   been shut down because they wantto put an AI data center right   next to them,   you know,   because it's constant power asmuch as you want, right?  

So we're seeing that. We'reseeing some of those   discussions. I just don't knowhow that's going to affect if   we're going to be a leader inAI, if we're going to be if   we're going to bring someindustrialization back,   we require energy. We requireit. It's not like, you know,   now, if we want to be a serviceeconomy, I mean, if we want to   not be who we used to be, we canget by with less energy, but,   but I do believe that, you know,we have to realize that a lot of   what we're seeing   in the world, in the Westernworld, is sort of a death cult.   I mean, they won't be happyuntil we're living in caves.  

You know, did I lose you? No,I'm.   I'm right here. Yeah, I I thinkthat the things that people were   talked into to support, theywere genuinely like, I want to   be a good person. How do you bea good person? You oppose these   things because industry is bad,and look at how they treat   workers, and look at how theytreat the the environment when   they're making this energy. AndI think that people just kind of   slowly walk towards that,nodding their head Yes. Let's   get rid always the case, theroad to hell is paved with good   intentions. And I believe, likeyou, that 99 plus percent of   people are good. They want good,right? I do not believe that   there's a lot of evil in theworld, although there is evil in   the world, right? But I believethat 99 plus percent of people   are good and want good things,and want progress and and want   to continue down the path. Thereare limits to that, that that   keep the lights on, right? Thereare compromises, and there are   trade offs, and what we want isa world without compromises and   trade offs.  

Yeah, I've heard that. Iactually heard a Thomas Sowell   quote not that long ago thatreally is stuck with me. It's,   there are no right answers.There are only trade offs. Yes.   So like, you like, that's,that's the actual answer is,   like, you can have whateverdesire you want. You just have   to understand what it will costyou. And that's the conversation   we haven't been having withgeneral society. Of like, Okay,   well, if you want all theseenvironmental things, then this   is what it's going to cost you.There's going to be people out   of work that could be working.Your competitors may actually   become a menacing threat, notjust like, Oh, they're going to   have a higher standard of livinglike no, they may actually be   able to build battleships andthreaten you. They may be able   to build nuclear submarines andand, you know, haunt your your   dreams and make the the worldterrible for you. That's right.  

And you know, Thomas Sowell, bythe way, is my wife's favorite   economist or writer. She's,she's read him since she was a   kid. Her dad used to read him.Oh, man, you married, right,   dude.   And he's, he's a fantastic fontof knowledge, right?   And he's right. And you see itas being an engineer, you know?   You see that all the time, beinga business owner and running a   business, you see it all thetime. There are   good answers, there are betteranswers, there are perfect   answers. They all have a costassociated with them. They all   have trade offs associated withthem. Some of them are   unachievable just because ofphysics, or, you know, how the   world works, right, chemistry orphysics, but there are these.  

There are multiple answers, andyou have to choose based on what   you can afford, and I don't meanin dollars, but in all kinds of   things. You know, environmental,   hurting somebody. You know, youmay have the perfect answer, but   it may run the risk of hurtingsomebody badly. And so, yeah, I   mean, the trade offs that we cansee are are manifest in the   California wildfires arehappening down in LA right, like   it is very clear, you decided todo certain things because you   wanted to achieve these goals,and that led you down a path.   Yeah, and again, I think, youknow, it's, it's fascinating to   watch, and I feel for thosepeople, I, you know, I went   through a house fire as a kidand lost a lot of our stuff. And   you know, you could still, whenyou walk into mom's house, you   can still smell. You know, ifyou know what you're smelling,   you know what you're smelling,right? And I was in grade   school, so I remember it, and welived in a trailer,   fifth wheel trailer, for aboutsix or eight months while they   rebuilt stuff and cleanedcleaned up, right? So I feel for   those people, I mean, it's,it's, it's brutal. I've been   through a flood and had to throwa bunch of stuff away, you know,   and you lose a lot of memoriesand things like that, and, you   know. But   on the other hand, there is areason why some of that is   happening. It's, it's, yeah,okay, maybe it's climate change.  

Maybe it's not. I got my owntheories on some of that stuff,   but it is dry in December andJanuary in California, almost   always. And they have firesthere. Almost always. There are   things that they can do   to help themselves, but becauseit's they don't believe it's   environmentally correct. Theydidn't do some of those things,   like cleaning out brush orcreating, creating forest lines   because, you know, or forestbreaks because it would look,   wouldn't look great, or blah,blah, blah. Now, right now,   they're driving bulldozers upand down mountains. Right?   Eight. So all the things theydidn't do, they're doing right   now, right? It's cleaning outthe brush, and they're, they're   making fire breaks withbulldozers on mountains.  

And so it's, it's a problem,right?   So you have a unique experiencein the world of of building   things and kind of, I don't evenreally kind of know where I'm   where I'm going with this,because what I really want is,   what's your take on what's goingon with the drones in the US?   What's my take on the drones? Doyou want my conspiracy theory?   Or do you want my   my my real theory. Oh, I mean, Ithink I want, what do you   actually think? What is, what isreally going   it's hard to tell what it is. Itcould be a number of things. My   guess is, is that it's socialcontagion. To some it's Summit,   some extent that you know thatit's, it's on social media. So   now everybody's looking forstuff. And   when you start looking forstuff, you find stuff. So I   think a lot of it is socialcontagion. There might be some   military pieces to this. I thinkit. I think the big thing that   drives people nuts is nobody cananswer the question succinctly,   it's like, well, whose is it?You know? What is it? Are you   seeing it,   you know? And we get answersfrom the government. Well, it's   not, it's not our adversaries.It's not us, you know. But it's   not, you know, it's notdetrimental to you. So don't   worry about it. Well, that'sthat actually creates the whole   conspiracy theory, you know,starts them off running well.  

And if you were awake duringCOVID at all, you learn your   government will lie to you. Theywill lie to you as a noble lie   that they are convinced willhelp you in the long run. And so   whatever their answer is,particularly when their answer   is, we can't really say, but youshould just trust us. It   definitely doesn't feel good.I'm distraught over what   happened during COVID And whathas happened over the last   probably two or three decades,   as far as you know, socialcohesion and public trust and   how much we have lost COVID wasa major event for a lot of   people, including me, you know,   on the vaccines and on thewhat's going on, PPE and and   other things. The lab leaktheory versus other theories,   you know, they did not   tell us   the truth, I believe,   and that has destroyed trust toa large extent in the our   patriotism was used against us.I remember they were, you know,   hey, the masks won't help you,but we do need them in a   hospital setting. So my wife andI, who had prepared and actually   had masks, she's a forwardthinker, we were like, all   right, it's our civic duty.Let's help our countrymen.  

Handed off the masks, and thenall of a sudden they're like,   now everybody has to wear masks,and you need to wear masks, and   then all of a sudden you'regoing through that, and then   they're forcing them on you,like, all of these things that   we were told like you need to dofor other people were actually   just ways to control us, likeyou'd be a fool to go back and   trust this, this group, if youknow whatever they say next   well. And then you, you, you goto the ivermectin, and you go to   the hydroxychloroquine.   And, you know, I asked my doctorfor hydroxychloroquine in   February of   2020,   and I had heard in Asia thatthat's what they were using.  

And he told me, I was nuts. Helater came back and told me, Oh,   that's preventative that they'rehaving doctors take now   he'll never admit to thatanymore,   because that is, you know, forboating and then ivermectin and   that, that whole deal, you know,this is a wonder drug that is   harmless to humans.   Okay? I mean, it has been aroundforever,   and we use it for a lot ofthings. It's not a parasitical   and we use it for a lot ofthings. And they basically told   us that we were going to die ifwe took it. You know,   anybody that's gone to, youknow, a third world country that   was mosquitoes. They give youivermectin, you know, it's one   of the things the parasitesthere. It's one of the things to   ward off parasites. And theygive it to you in large doses.  

It's probably one of the thingsthat's been used more widely   than a lot of other things, youknow, like aspirin, you know, a.   Um, and if you do the researchand you dig into it, I was   really interested in 2020,   Henry Ford Hospital here inDetroit, had a study. It was   prophylactic, prophylacticcocktail that they were giving   their people to use, and theywere doing a full on study, and   they never published that study,and I think it's still up on   their site. They have a letterabout why they didn't publish   the study, and it basically saysthat it's not politically the   right time to release the study,   okay?  

And what I heard was it wasworking as a prophylactic, not   for treatment. I mean, the thingwas, is these things are not,   you know, to use if you're inthe hospital on a ventilator,   all right, but as aprophylactic, they were working.   They were helping your body. Andthen you get into the vitamin D,   vitamin C,   you know, and zinc. And the zincis a disruptor, and I use that   for common colds now. I mean, ifI start feeling bad, I load up   on my Vitamin C, Vitamin T, andzinc, you know, and, and sure   enough, it knocks it out. Andguess what? That's exactly what   zy cam was basically doing, youknow, it's what the zycam spray   is. It's, it's Zai is zinc,   you know. And there's so they'reusing as a, as a, as a virus   disruptor, yeah. Like the thingsthat you're bringing up, like, I   actually have started hearingabout zinc a lot more lately.  

And like, hey, when you startgetting a cold, take it. There's   so many things now that arecoming up that were, you know,   totally eschewed. Like you, oh,don't use that stuff. Like   theories, yeah, it's making itso like you. There's a bunch of   stuff where you're like, Idon't, I don't know. I mean,   like, I heard that you shouldpasteurize your milk. I lived in   Africa, where we even pasteurizethe milk there because it's   dirty. You're taking it off adirty teat, off of a off of a   goat, but all these other peopleare telling me it tastes better,   and it's actually not beendenatured, and there's these   benefits to it. Well, I now havea very clear time when the   government lied to me, and now Ihave these other people who are   saying, this is a benefit. Howdo you navigate this? Like, what   you know, you start to look atthe statistics, and they're   like, well, it's one in 10,000may get slightly ill from it,   and it's one in I don't knowwhat the other numbers are   about, like, that'll actuallyget hurt from raw milk. But   like, why did we go to thispath? I don't think people went   down this path as a nefarioustrick. So how do you how do you   get to the bottom of it? I don'tknow whether you ever get to the   bottom of it, because you haveto have trust to get to the   bottom of it. And that's whatwe've lost, and that's that's my   biggest that's why I'mdistraught about what happened   and what continues to happen,because democracies operate on   trust.  

And, okay, maybe we're notdemocracy. We're, you know, a   republic, RepresentativeRepublic, right? Okay, but okay,   Representative republics, ordemocracies, both work on trust,   right? And if you can't trustyour government, then you have   all kinds of other problems thatcrop up. And you you you can't   function as a society, andthat's a real problem, you know.   And I spent a lot of timetalking to my mom about during   COVID, my mom, at first, youknow, stayed home and, you know,   my mom, she stayed sharp lady.   But, you know, after a whileshe's like this, you know, I   want to see I want to see youguys. I want to see my   grandkids. I want to see youknow, I I'm, what was it? I'm 85   years old. I haven't got thatmany years left, so I'm not   going to give up these years. Soyou guys keep coming. You know,   if you're sick, don't come likenormal. I'm old, right? But,   but, but I don't want to stopdoing stuff, so let's just keep   doing it. She'd go to thedoctor, and she'd go into town   to rehab, you know, which is hersocial hour, and all these other   things, you know, go down to eatand, you know, it was a,   she's like, I lived throughpolio. I lived through small   smallpox. There were multipleother scarlet fever. You know,   these things were killers,right? And this one doesn't   appear to be unless you'realready sick, which I'm old, and   I'm all, I'm kind of sick thosebut so it might get me. But you   know, what, if I give up three,two or three years of my life,   what, you know, what did I get?Right? I'd rather keep living.  

And if I die, I die, and thatwas what she said to me, you   know, I'd say, Mom, you know,maybe you shouldn't go to, you   know, the big city, right where,you know, just.   Shop or whatever. So you go andit's gonna get if it's gonna get   me, it's gonna get   me. Well, you bring up theseterrible diseases like polio and   scarlet fever and stuff. Andright now, we have a battery of   vaccines. They start puttingyour infant on them almost right   away. I had a good friend,hardcore, like, very ASPE dude   that will go through the data,and he's had two kids, and now   he's got a third one, and he'slike, actually, we're looking at   what they're bringing up aboutvaccines, and I'm not sure it's   worth the trade off. And that'sexactly where we started this,   right? Which is, what is thetrade off? You don't trust your   government. You think, hey, theythey have other people's   interests, either pharmaceuticalinterests, or, you know,   whatever it is that now we'renow, we're questioning vaccines,   which I would have said fouryears ago.  

You know, that is as close togetting something that I would   mandate on other people as youcould have, I'm pretty hardcore   libertarian, and I still wasn'tat the point where I'd say, you   you mandate the polio or measlesvaccine. But like, once this   breaks out, you know, smallpox,this is terrible, this is going   to cause all kinds of problems.And now, the further down the   path I'm all the more you know,anarchist, and there's no chance   that the government should havethe power to mandate anything,   but like, now I'm like, I don'tknow. Should you even take   voluntary should you givevoluntary vaccines to your kids?  

So we are now at the totalbreakdown, and are we doing the   same thing that California didwhen we're like, Yeah, we don't   want to take vaccines. And thennow there's a wildfire, and it   burns everything down, so Idon't want to be a part of that.   I think we are at that point.And I think we're, you know,   listen, there are some of thesethat are very old and and   vaccines, and they work, youknow, and they have a long   history with very low incidencerates. There are some newer ones   that I,   you know, I don't know, right?But I remember going into the   cafeteria and taking the sugarcube with the, you know, the   MMR, right?  

And I, my sister has a polio,you know, Scar, polio vaccine,   Scar. And I don't, I was thefirst one that didn't have first   generation didn't have it. But Iremember growing up with people   that that had built up shoes.Saw one the other day, actually,   you know, he had Polo. That waswhat happened, right? And they,   they had, you know, one shoe hasa as a five inch sole on it,   right? Because their legs short,yeah, it's indelibly marked on   me. I have a buddy in college,he had a white mother that is   just a staggeringly beautifulwoman, but has a horrible limp.   And like, you're like, whathappened there? Oh, she got   polio. And so you see, like, Oh,that is disfiguring. Like, can't   even walk, right? I don't wantthat running around. But at the   same time, you hear these peoplesaying, well, the government's   put in all these or allowed thepharmaceuticals to do it. They   have adjuvants andpreservatives, and I think this   is causing autism. And you'relike, Well, I, you know, they   tell me it's not, but they alsotold me to give up my masks. So   and so you've got this situationwhere highly, you know, people   that have the ability to discernthings, for the most part, are   left in the position where,like, I don't know what to do, I   got to trust somebody I agree.And I have a sister in law who   had her first child is awardedthe state today. She's would be   probably 24   and it was her first round ofvaccines, and she spiked 107 or   108 degree fever. It fried herbrain. They were still living   with her when I was dating mywife and got married, and they   had to make the hard decision toinstitutionalize her, because   they literally all she did wasscream and roll around. She   couldn't walk, she couldn't feedherself, she couldn't take care   of herself. There was nobodyhome, right? And that was a   vaccine injury, almost certainhappened the day after she took   her first round of vaccines. Soshe had a reaction,   you know, so, but she had herother two kids vaccinated,   you know, and they're fine. Mykids got vaccinated. They're   fine, right? We didn't take themall. But you know, we also, you   know, we've, we've increased thenumber so staggeringly over the   last 30 years. And some of them,I think, need to be looked at,   and some of them don't. I also,you know, if you want to talk   pharmaceuticals, I I have noidea why pharmaceuticals can.  

Can advertise on TV.   Why are they allowed? I mean,   why do I need to know about, youknow,   humera, for example, right? I.   And   makes sense, though, and this isconspiratorial too, but I think   probably makes sense. I don'tthink that those Well, I think   it's money, but I think it'smoney in a very nefarious way. I   think it's like NBC or CNBCcan't afford these hosts that   they have unless they have hugeamounts of money, then they pay.   So the pharmaceutical companies,you can't, you can't advertise   Jack Daniels anymore. Yeah,right, right. I mean, I can't   advertise Newports anymore. Imean, I'm actually against all   of these rules. What we, what Iwould say is the government   shouldn't have control over thebroadcast airwaves to begin   with. And then you have thewhole question of like, All   right, well, how do you, how doyou allocate the, you know, the   bandwidth, and how do youchoose? But at the end of the   day, every time we set up one ofthese rules, we just create a   system that whoever has themoney piled up, can   I guess what I'm what I'm sayingis, is that, you know it is   EpiPen is a great example ofpeople, you know, abusing the   system. The pharmaceuticalabusing the system. You know,   epinephrine is, epinephrine isoff, off label. You know it's,   it's, but they keep getting thepatent for the pin, renewed the   delivery device?  

Yeah. I mean, you're you and Ithis actually may be an   interesting discussion. I'mpretty much against patents. I   think that we like, I like, whatare we doing? You that is an   idea, and the fact that you nowhave the force of the government   to come along and say you're notallowed to use that idea because   that guy had it first, andyou're in manufacturing, you've   built things, so you probablyhave a very different   perspective here, but to me, itadds a whole lot of power in the   government to enforce rulesaround ideas. So there's,   there's two sides to this coin,right, and   the one side is, is that I am Ifigured out something   that nobody else has everfigured out.  

Should everybody be allowed tocopy that on day one? Should I   have the ability to monetizethat at least somehow,   I would say you would get awhole lot less in it may, you   may get a whole lot lessinnovation. I won't say you will   get, you may get a whole lotless innovation if you don't   allow them to monetize. What'sthe point? Right? Unless so you   get a whole lot less patents forcertain and everybody will go to   know how I hold exactly zeropatents, not because I've come   up with zero patentable ideas,but in order to get a patent,   you have to tell them exactlyhow you did it.  

Okay? So as long as you're in anarea that   enforces patents,   that's great, right? I can tellyou exactly how you did it, you   can't do it, but let's take theconversation that we had to   begin this with minerals, andlet's take a place that doesn't   necessarily enforce patents. Sonow I've told you exactly how I   did it,   okay,   and so you're going to go doexactly what I did, and go to   every place else that won'tenforce that patent,   right, and sell my product, whatI came up with. So   in my world, know how might bebetter,   right? And know how is the otherside of that coin, which is the   unpatentable idea that you theunpatent idea that you came up   with that nobody's figured outyet. So I'm I built a better   mouse trap, but   I'm going to not even sell youthe mouse trap. I'm going to   sell you the mouse catchingservice,   right? And you can't look at mymouse trap. It's in a box   because I don't want you to knowhow I did it.  

Now you're going to send allkinds of people around try to   steal my mouse traps, right? SoI'm going to have to probably   put some sort of, you know,defeat device on them, right? So   you can't figure out how I didit. But that's the other side of   the patent conversation, andthere's a lot of engineers and   industries that operate on knowhow. And especially, I think,   since   China really came into the WTOand was really ripping off   patents, and that's what theydo. And now it's interesting,   because Japanese rings patents,the Japanese ringed patents. So   you'd come up with an idea, andthey would come up with every   possible variation on that ideathat they could think of, and   patent everything around you. Soyou were stuck with the original   idea, and if you moved one wayor the other, you know, they   basically have a patent, you'dbe.  

Fringing on their patent, right?That was the Japanese were   brilliant on that, actually, andreally good, but the Chinese   would just ignore your patent.And I was in, you know, they   talked about all the patentsthat China files and all the   stuff, listen, I was in. I'vebeen, I've been working in China   since 2001   and in order to get our hightech license, you had to come up   with three patents. And you talkto your patent people, and   they're like, Well, why didn'tyou patent that? Well, I didn't   design that. Nobody cares. It   doesn't matter. You just gottafile patents so you get your   high tech status   right. So you could patentsomebody else's design.  

Okay? Makes it through theChinese system. You get your   three patents, and you get yourhigh tech status, and you're all   good. You get tax tax rebatesfor another five years.   So it's a it's a game.   And the whole, know how patentthing is kind of a game that you   got to understand, whether youwant people to understand what   you did or not, is China doingthat to get you to participate   in a like a moral quandary? Andthen you've already, you've   already, you know, China as awhole is a moral quandary, but   that's a whole other discussion,but the answer is yes, and no, I   think. But the bigger answer atthat time was, is that   China's government is thecentral government is very   disconnected from potentialgovernment. So the central   government would put out we wantto move to more high tech   industry. Okay, so that getslaid down to the to the   provinces, and the provincialleaders premieres get their   grades on whether they move toan industrial, more high tech   industrial policy. So what dothey do? They go out and they   figure out how to move to a morehigh tech, at least on paper   industrial policy. So okay,let's have everybody file   patents, and then they could getthis high tech credit that the   central government is giving us,and we get credit too, right? So   maybe nothing has changed, buteverybody is now high tech, and   they can spout it out thatwe've, we've, we filed this many   patents, and we're leading inthe patent race. And, you know,   so some of us propaganda, andsome of us the incentives, you   know, be careful what youmeasure, because you get what   you measure, bureaucratichellscape. I mean, this is the   way our corporations work. Yeah,there's some of that, but it's   very prevalent in the provinces,you know, and they compete   against each other for, youknow, the next level up and and   how they are seen by the CentralCommittee and and things of that   nature. So they're going to dothey're going to help you scam   the system. So your part onpatents, I actually am   surprised. I thought you weregoing to be like, no, let me   shove patents down your throatas hard as I can, because that's   the way most engineers are. Man,at Monsanto, when I would talk   about, I don't think we shouldhave intellectual property   rights on on genes. Man, thesepeople would flip out. And I   like your, your take on that,right? Like,   have patents on genes, becausethat's God's patent.  

I mean,   I just Okay, so you discoveredsomething that's not creating   something,   yeah, you can't patent math,right? You can't patent a fact,   right? If something is true,then you can't patent that they   definitely got somehow found.Like a weird way to do a flip,   flip over loop to be able tosay, we can patent that, because   you're not allowed to patent amathematical equation, because   that's considered discovered,not not created, isn't a gene   discovered? Yeah. I mean, Ifrankly, like, I really like   your case against them on apurely, like, pragmatic level,   about, like, well, I don'treally want to tell you how to   do this, because then the secretmight get out of the box, and   you've been in a position whereyou've benefited from being able   to keep knowledge secret? Yeah,absolutely. Working on some   stuff right now.  

Of course, I'm not asking you totell me what it is, but in what   way, like, Is it like theprocess of, let's say, smelting,   like the order that you put itin? What do you mean? I'm   developed. I'm developing with   a company that I am related,that I have a relationship with   a new process to help pull backparts that have been overseas   for years.   And it's, it's an old processwith a new idea, right? So I'm,   I'm going to do it differently,and I'm going to.   Be able to produce product much,much cheaper than anybody else   in the United States, and shouldbe able to compete with my Asian   competitors. And this is a wayto get around the fact that   we're not producing the rawmaterials. So you're gonna go   recycle them. Yeah, it's, Imean, listen, I mean, we're all   there's only one thing that'ssellable in the world, and it's   time.  

Time is the only thing that's ofvalue. And we monetize our time   through a lot of things, right?We can sell corn, or we can sell   auto parts, or we can sellanything, but I'm selling my   time. You're selling your time.You know, we the way we monetize   it. Maybe we're selling itdirectly. Maybe you work for   somebody and they pay you to dostuff, so you're sold it   directly. You sold eight hours aday of your time for X number of   dollars. Right, as a businessowner,   I sell my time by by monetize mytime, by selling parts,   right? So if I can figure out away to make profit or make more   per unit time,   or more good per unit time, thenI can make more. I can still   reduce my price and make moreper hour,   right? So in my world,everything circles back to time.  

It's the only thing that's oflimited quantity in your life,   and you sell it every day.   So and what? What is it? I thinkit's Epicurious that it's it's   not that we're given too littletime, it's that we waste so   much,   right? So   everything for me comes back totime.   I like this a great deal. And infact, in my own world of legacy   interviews, it actually mapsdirectly to what I think,   because I'm always saying, like,you could record your family,   like, absolutely you haveequipment to do it. You have the   relationship. They're rightthere with you. But what happens   with us is that we're going totake the time to do it, and it's   actually going to get done. Andthat's ultimately, like, why   people are like, you know, it'sjust, yeah, I could do it   myself, but, like, doing it thisway just just resolves the   problem. And then, you know, ofcourse, quality. But like the   the I had never thought todirectly say that, and that   that's not just the businessthat I'm in, it's the business   you're in. That's, it's thebusiness everybody's in,   stockbroker selling his time,you know, trying to convince   people to do something, right?And a lot, yeah, and that you   don't have to go look up theseideas. You don't have to go look   at the, you know, the p and Eratings. I'll just give it to   you, and that might changeanything you can do to in, you   know, that's why you hire morepeople, right? Because you don't   want to spend 24 hours a daydoing it, and you can afford now   to hire a couple people to helpyou, right? You have other   things you want to do with yourtime, because, you know, it's   valuable, right? And I had, youknow, this is my dad was pretty   influential on some of thisstuff, you know, he was like a   gentleman philosopher. I didn'trealize it until I was much   older, right? But he had allthese sayings about different   stuff and, and then I started,you know, I'm an engineer, and   I've had some discussion withLuke Burgess online about, you   know, people who should peoplestudy the classics, or, you   know, humanities and things likethat. And the answer is yes, but   you got to walk your way upMaslow's hierarchy of needs. You   need to have a job and aprofession that you can support   yourself and have extra time sothat you can study those things,   I think, because they're supervaluable. But I've also had a   couple brushes with death, and,you know, from young times to   recent and, you know, and andwhat's the saying? I think it's   Seneca, or somebody said, Everyman lives two lives, and the   second begins when he realizeshe has but one, right?  

So once you realize, and talkingto young kids is hilarious like   that, because you know, time isnot a thing for them, yeah,   yeah. In fact, they're so like,like, my, my four year old, all   she wants is time to movefaster. She has no concept of   like. So when you realize thatyou have only one life, what   happened in your Second Life,then,   well, you know, I was told byone of my mentors that at some   point you knew from an innovatorto being an innovator to being   an educator.   So I decided,   after a couple of the morerecent ones, I had cancer in   2016 and then I wrecked a snowmeal, pretty bad in 2019 hours.  

Joke about I met my deductibleand my family deductible all by   midnight on January 1 2019   you know.   Yeah,   because I got a nice lifeflight, and I got a nice private   flight out of it, and the wholenine yards, right? But I decided   that that's what I wanted to be.I wanted to teach what I know to   other people, right down to thefact that we all sell our time.   That's the only thing valuablein life.   And you know how to do thisstuff and pass on what I was   taught by some great mentors. Ihad 234,   really fantastic mentors, mydad, couple bosses, a couple   personal on the personal side,you know, and they taught me so   much. And I've read. I'm avoracious reader, and you know,   it's,   it's time, it's time to passthat on to my kids and to others   that want it, that want it, youknow? And the old saying goes,   you know, when, when the studentknocks the the teacher appears,   you can't teach somebody thatdoesn't want to learn. Want to   learn, so you have to wait forthe student to knock but you but   once they do, you know, you pickup people to mentor, right? And   that's what I try to do. And inmy industry, I try to continue   to teach people, okay? This isthe fundamentals. It is the   basics. I was talking to aservice guy yesterday, and he's   like, there aren't a lot ofpeople around like you anymore,   right, that know the deep down,dark secrets of of how we used   to do it, right? And I said, I'mtrying to teach them sometimes I   teach them bad things, right?You know, things that they work,   but you maybe you shouldn't knowthis. And I tell them   that I want to give you a toolhere, but please use it very   sparingly, right?  

But because you can destroystuff if you don't pay   attention. But, well, there's aplace for the dark arts, right?   Once you're really an expert,yeah, there's a place for that,   and it's not, I don't believethat there's alchemy to it. I   believe that it's I believe inscience and I believe in physics   and engineering and everything,you know, I kind of laugh at the   whole Elon first principlesthing, because that was my   mentor in the 90s. He was afirst principles guy, right? I   mean, it's like he looked at meand he said, it's an engineering   problem. You're an engineer. Youcould figure it out,   right? Let physics be thedeterminer of what you could do,   right? You say first principles.I don't know that I could if   somebody said, What does it meanto be a first principles   thinker? It's a concept I hear,but I don't know what it means.  

Well, for example, if you wantto, if you want to, if you have   something that's   say too hot, right? I say a partor something, how are you going   to it's, let's say that you'rethrottling a CNC machine because   your coolant is too hot and it'stearing up tools, something like   that, right? Okay,   you shouldn't be throttling theCNC. You should be figuring out   how to cool off the coolant,   right? So let's not work on,let's not work on anything in   that CNC, because people arelike, well, I need to speed it   up and not do this. So I'm goingto change all this programming.   Let's go to the direct source ofthis. This is B to use in,   equals b to use out. Don't useworkarounds. Get to the core   problem. Go to the root cause.Find Your HERBIE, if you're if   you're a gold rat guy, find yourHerbie and work on your Herbie.  

Right? You you a gold rat. Eli,gold rat and the goal never even   heard of. The goal is probablythe best manufacturing book on   the planet that if you get goldrat and dimming together, you   have manufacturing whipped   right, does Demings, SPC andquality control. And gold red is   all about throughput. It'sconstraint constraint theory,   right? So those are the two Ialways point people to. And you   know, it's all about findingyour HERBIE, finding your   finding your real constraint,   or finding your real root causeand fixing that. And, you know,   Henry Ford said it, Elon said itthat a lot of engineers spend a   lot of time perfecting processthat shouldn't even exist,   right?  

It's a workaround.   Why are you even doing it. Imean, I think this is something   said in science a lot, that it'slike, the hardest part is   actually defining the problem.If you define the problem like,   you find it right, if you know,like, what is actually the thing   that we're trying to solve here,that is most of the challenge.   Because.   Is it's once you discover theright problem to be solving,   then when you solve it, you'reat first principles, but it is   very, very difficult. Like, youknow, you look at a sales   problem, you're like, Well, theproblem is that we're not   selling enough. Well, is it? Isthat the core, yeah, like, or is   there another problem thatyou're actually trying to say,   maybe a symptom, maybe we havean inferior product, or maybe   our prices are too high or costor too high, or maybe our sales   marketing isn't done, yeah? Or,you know, there could be a   number of issues that areleading to that outcome. That is   a that is an outcome, and youhave to have inputs and outputs,   and you have to figure out whichone it is sales, revenue is an   output,   right? It's not an input, andit's do you have what your   customers need? Are you makingit? Can you make it in the   quantities they need? Can youmake it at the quality levels   need, and can you make it at thecost they need?  

And if you can do that, thenyou'll have more sales than you   can possibly stand,   right? And if you look throughhistory, that's what happens.   That's the story of the Model T,right? And another book who is   that it's not Womack, it's   it's the machine that changedthe world. And it's about the   it's about the moving assemblyline.   And Henry Ford's invention ofthe moving assembly line. It's   called a machine that changedthe world. And,   you know, you're talking aboutmanufacturing and factories and   things like this. And, you know,growing up, the idea that you   would become a factory workerwas seen as like saying, I'm   gonna go become a slave. I'mgonna go become surf. What   should people know about factorywork that they don't know? Um,   what do I say? I mean,   it's reasonably well paid, butit's not as well paid as it   should be. I think that. Well,that's what we're trying I mean,   because we're not as efficientas we should be.  

It's a lot of fun, I mean, to bean engineer in a factory, or to   be part of the process team orthe tooling team, it's a whole   lot of fun because you'resolving problems every day. You   know it's, it's, there's a lotof tedious work for the average   worker. We try to,   we try to eliminate as much asthat as possible. And the   question I have to ask everyone,you know when they're doing   something and you know whenthey're setting up the process   or something, would you wantyour mom to do that for eight   hours a day, five days a week,   right? But if you don't wantyour mom doing it,   then, why are you having thisperson do it? Let's figure out a   different way. So give me anexample of how that would   change. You know something,   I mean, somebody standing on aconcrete floor with a file in   their hand filing something foreight hours a day,   right? Carpal Tunnel comingcoming your way.  

Back problems coming your way.So can we give them? Is it   something where they can sitdown? Is it something where they   can we can put a rubber matunder them? Can we automate that   process and eliminate thatentirely so somebody doesn't   have to do that? Can we fix, canwe go to first principles? Why   is it happening? Why are wegoing to file it right? And can   we fix the very root cause ofit, or will it always kind of be   there, and we can't figure outhow to fix that right? So that's   what you got to get them tofocus on. That's what you try to   get people to focus on, is iseliminating those, those spots   where, you know people, weshouldn't have people doing   those things. And by the way,that's what the Chinese do. It   spades. There are boatloads ofpeople standing there filing   stuff.  

I mean, that's a brilliant wayto describe the comparative   advantage in this, because it itshows like, well, if you have   people and you can throw them atthat, and you don't care whether   or not and they cost nothing,virtually, right, then you don't   have to solve problems. Like, atthe deeper level, you can just   throw, you can just throw cheaplabor at it. Yeah. I mean,   listen, when I first startedgoing there, one of my JVs, I   was with a big state ownedcompany, and one of their   metrics that we as part of theJV, that we had to report out on   was how many deaths we had.  

Okay, it was a KPI, you know,   right   now we didn't have any,   but the fact that it existed   was like, you know, and theywere a big, multi billion dollar   organ, state owned, you know,   you know, but it's there. Howmany people did you kill?   And there's probably tolerancesthere, right? How many people   you employ?   COVID versus how many peopledie? And I don't know, I mean,   I don't remember whether it wasstill there when I, when I left   that company, and I certainlydidn't have any my companies   that I ran as wolfies, you know,of wholly owned, you know. But   I guess, you know, it made me,   you know, my, my skin crawl alittle bit, right? It would,   yeah, but that's the world thatwe were part of over there. Now,   if you that happens over here,you got big problems.  

Yeah, that's something OSHAdoesn't ask you, is how many   they will shut down your plantand they will crawl all over you   forever, and they should,   right? I mean our job as asbusiness owners and and   manufacturing leaders orwhatever, maybe it's an elevator   leader or or, you know,whatever, is to send everybody   home at least as good as theycame in.   That's job number one.   So we're about to wrap up. But Iwould be remiss if I didn't ask   you, what does nn ZP meannothing,   really, absolutely nothing. It'sjust static. It's just noise,   just noise. 1730 doesn't meananything, if that's my Twitter,   you know, and that doesn't meananything either. It's just   random. Wow, I'm gonna, I'mgonna stack this away in my   conspiracy theories that you'relying, and then it does mean   something, and that there's likea hidden if it does what it   means, I mean. But   I decided at some point severalyears ago to change Twitter   handles and, and I, you know, I   just typed some numbers andletters and numbers in and and   picked avatar that basically, Ithink it says, If you don't do   maintenance on your equipment,your equipment will decide When   the maintenance is   due. I don't really know what itsays, you know. And you know, I   wanted to be mostly anonymous,because I know a lot of people   in the industry, and I don'twant to, you know, in my   industry and the larger autoindustry, and I really don't   want to be that guy callingpeople out. I there were some   people in my position that didthat when I was a younger guy,   and I just didn't think it wasvery see, you know, they thought   it was a little unseemly. And Iwant to be have good   interactions with people onlinethat, you know, a lot of people   know who I am, and a lot ofpeople don't, and that's fine   with me. I just like being who Iam, I guess. Well, that sounds   like a perfect place to to wrapup. So, man, thank you so much   for sitting down with me anddoing this. Is some long, long   time I've been wanting to dothis. Hopefully it's worthwhile.  

I mean, I, you know, I don't   consider myself a philosopher oror anything that's generally   worth listening to. So there yougo. Well, I've known ever since   our first conversation that thiswould be a great podcast, and I   was right.   You