In this episode of the Joe Rooz Show, Joe brings an engaging discussion with two intriguing guests. The first hour features Jack McMahon, a USMC veteran and author of "Atrophy and Asymptotes," who shares insights into his book that blends essays and letters to his daughter, tackling themes of freedom, economics, and censorship. McMahon's unique style combines emotion and logic, aiming to address societal issues with both rage and reason.
In the second hour, Joe welcomes Josh Lewis, host of the Saving Elephants podcast, who delves into the depths of conservatism, inspired by thinkers like Edmund Burke and Thomas Sowell. Lewis discusses the importance of preserving civil society and community, offering a perspective on how contemporary conservatism can course-correct by returning to foundational principles. The episode is a rich exploration of political thought, personal responsibility, and the challenges of maintaining a republic in today's world.
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(00:03:24) Introduction and Technical Issues
(00:05:01) Upcoming Guests and Topics
(00:07:45) Interview with Jack McMahon
(00:59:53) Introduction to Hour Two
(01:04:18) Interview with Josh Lewis
- Wayne Rankin
- Rosanna Rankin
- Carolina Jimenez
[00:03:25]
Unknown:
Transmitting live from the Asylum Studios deep in the bowels of Southwest Texas, it's the Joe Ruge Show, the show where we talk about anything and everything where nothing is sacred, nothing is watered down, and nothing is PC.
[00:03:45] Unknown:
Alright. Hey, folks. It's Cho Ruz. It is nineteen eleven hours on the 09/08/2025, and we are coming to you live from the asylum studios from the pimple on the backside of Texas, the beautiful city of Eagle Pass. And we're bringing you the best quality talk radio we could muster without all the bluster. Folks, welcome to the Joe Russo. Alright. Well, like I always say, it wouldn't be a show that I do if it didn't have some kind of technical screw up to get started. Welcome to the world of using StreamYard. We, tried this baby out tonight and, ran into a problem as soon as we hit the go live button, which was should have expected that.
You know? Did the run through on the weekend with a buddy of mine, and not a problem. Everything worked great. No sweat. No issue. Today, eleven minute late start. But at least we're here, and, we're excited to be here. So, we do have a lot of ground to cover tonight. We have some great guests lined up. In the, first hour, we have Jack McMahon, an author who is going to be sharing some information about his, his book that he's he's put out. And, we're excited to talk to him. I he's he's already waiting for us, so we gotta kinda fly through this here to get him in. And then, second hour, we have, we have a really interesting conversation coming up in the second hour. We'll be talking to, Josh Lewis, who is a, the host of the, Saving Elephants podcast. And, no, we're not talking about environmental conservatism. We're talking about saving conservatism, republicanism. So we're gonna it's a very interesting conversation we're looking forward to having. So, with all of that said, let's get into some of the housekeeping before we get started. So first of all, head over to our website, joeroos.com.
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Well, folks, tonight's guest challenges the decay of American values through raw, passionate writing. Jack McMahon is a USMC. That's the Marine Corps for you folks who don't know. He's a USMC veteran from a small town in Ohio. He spent years in CNC machining and warehousing. Later, he moved to to, project management and process improvement, a whistleblower in the marines, which I'm very curious about. He's fought abuses of power his whole life. His book, Atrophy and Asymptotes, blends essays, which we practiced that before the show started. Blends essays to the to, to the the public and letters to his daughter, It tackles freedoms, economics, censorship, violence, foreign policy, bravery, and safety. Jack argues for both for using both emotion and logic, rage to spot problems, reason to solve them.
His style is unfiltered. He's unapologetic, born from worries about eroding freedoms on his bond with his daughter. And he's incredibly sarcastic, which I love. So we're good to go. Jack, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. You know, again, I'm sorry about, the little glitch we had at the start there. That's, you know, that's that's the that's the joys of doing a live show, number one. And number two, that's the joys of doing a live show when you're using software that you've never really used before, and you're trying to get comfortable with it, but you realize that you've been playing with it for a week, and you need to get started using it because you're paying for the damn thing. So let's get to it, and what do you think happens?
Problems, problems galore. But I think we got it figured out fairly quickly. So, again, welcome to the show, Jack. So I always have I have a couple of questions that I always ask every guest at the outset of the show. So, what's something that most people don't know about you but should?
[00:10:13] Unknown:
Well, my close friends will know this, but, I'm a Warhammer nerd, painted miniatures.
[00:10:20] Unknown:
Really? Yeah. You're gonna have to explain that one just a little bit for me. So what is a Warhammer nerd?
[00:10:26] Unknown:
It's a a miniatures game. There's, like, a fantasy version and then, like, a sci fi version, and it's just, you know, little, little army men fighting each other. Okay. Alright. That's painting them in plas plastic toys and a three d printer to make my own.
[00:10:44] Unknown:
Nice. I kinda, I kinda had a feeling that's where it was, but it wasn't a 100 sure. So thank you for educating me on that one. Alright. And, the next question I have for you, the icebreakers. So I asked this to everybody, and everybody usually gives me some kind of a lame answer, but let's see what you got. What's your, go to beverage to help you unwind at the end of the day?
[00:11:07] Unknown:
My go to for the end of the day is just, Miller Lite. I'm I'm a simple guy. When I was still heavy drinking, I I drank Fireball and White Claws. Called it Fire Claws.
[00:11:21] Unknown:
Oh, Fireball and White. No. Now I've had both, and and neither one of them are really great. So Yeah. That's awesome. And I'm glad you I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you brought up some alcoholic beverage because not that I'm encouraging people to drink or anything like that because I'm trying to I'm trying to ease my way out of this lifestyle myself. But, you know, I, most people that I ask, they always come back with, oh, I drink water. I drink water. Water. That's good. I am. I'm glad you're hydrated. That's one of the I've got Baja Blast tonight. Mountain Dew. Alright. You're the second you're the second guest to bring up a Mountain Dew on the show. That's awesome.
I haven't had a Mountain Dew in I don't know how long, and I'm I'm afraid that if I did now that I I'd probably go into, like, a diabetic coma from it because it's so damn sweet. But, but that's good stuff, man. I miss it. I do. I'll be honest with you. I miss it. My my go to is usually well, before I started cutting back, my go to would be, some bourbon at the end of the day. Really, I I love bourbons. I love the flavors of bourbons. I love the different varieties. And, you know, I I love to sample them. So it's it's tough. It's it's tough to stay away from them, but I'm I'm doing the best that I can on this one. So we're getting there. I was very tempted actually to slip some bourbon in the coffee cup. This way people think I'm drinking coffee, but it's actually bourbon, but no, it's really coffee. It's it's okay. And it's cold already. I can't believe that. But, but that's great. That is fantastic. So, Jack, let's get right into it because I unfortunately, we lost a lot of time.
So, you're a you're a Marine Corps vet, and thank you for your service, by the way. Appreciate what you've done for this country. Thank you very much for it in preserving the freedoms that we have. As a as a as a veteran, as a whistleblower, you've you've, you've gone up against abuses of power very often. How did those experiences, including your time in the marines, shape your decision to write Atrophy and Asymptotes?
[00:13:22] Unknown:
I don't think necessarily that in particular influenced it as much as more recent things, but it was early on in my life and it kind of helped set an attitude of, looking for some kind of expensive moral purpose in life. I I kind of, going in, half of me was like, I just wanna do something. I got school locked down, and I just wanna do something that'll make me stronger because that's what I'm bad at. And then the other half was, like, kind of seeing people that I thought were bad growing up, in school or home or whatever, institutions I ran into.
And I kind of thought, you know, the marine corps would be the one that, I would find good people in. And it's just like, oh, well, the people here, they're gonna definitely be good. And I think that was kind of, like, a final straw when I realized that people are just people no matter what organization they join. It doesn't necessarily automatically make somebody good or automatically make somebody bad based on, you know, joining joining or one organization or another, a church, a a military. There can be evil anywhere, and there can be good anywhere. That's true. And then, like, I kinda kept that attitude throughout my life, and made me realize I I it's kind of like that same attitude applies to modern politics and not automatically siding with, one particular party all the time because that party is not you know, somebody being on the left or somebody being on the right doesn't automatically make them good or bad in that same manner.
So I think, it may have influenced kind of my my thoughts a lot. Within the book, my chapter on, heroes and villains is probably influenced by that a lot.
[00:15:39] Unknown:
Okay. So your book stems from concerns about, your relationship with your daughter and, the erosions of freedom. Correct? Yeah. So what was the pivotal realization that led you to structure it as letters to her and essays to the public? Because it's a it's a great idea, and I thought that was really interesting. You know? And the way you laid that out, it, it it makes it it also makes it, for me anyway, it makes it an easy to follow read through. Like I told you earlier, before we started the show, I I had an opportunity to read the majority of the book. Now I can't say all of it. But, and I and I thought it was great. I I thought it was very easy to follow along and very relatable. And I think the way you did it that way in letters to her and and essays really shows your heart. And I I think that was great. So, what what what made you do it that way?
[00:16:31] Unknown:
Struggles in my own life, with, like, my family, That's not my immediate my immediate family as in, like, brothers, sisters, parents, struggles with them and, like, a broken relationship with them. And over the last four or five years, kind of led me to realize that I don't ever want that kind of struggle to happen between me and my daughter, but she's now nine years old. And, at 30 years old, I didn't think that the struggles I have now with my family would ever happen to me. So who knows what'll happen, you know, in the next nine years with my daughter. I've been known to mess things up, so relationship wise.
So, she could very well not like me at 18. I'm told that happens in,
[00:17:23] Unknown:
It does.
[00:17:25] Unknown:
In the in the years of adolescence. So I kind of wanted her to be able to hear my voice, even if she wasn't wanting to come directly to me. And if she has, you know, if something I did along the way messes up our relationship and she can't ever come to me for advice or doesn't want to and it's too uncomfortable, then she can still pick up the book and be like, okay. What does you think on this? What does you I can still give advice even though I'm not literally saying it. And then, obviously, you know, there's a if I happen to die thing. It's a I, I keep calling it my non financial life insurance policy.
[00:18:13] Unknown:
I got you. I got you. Yeah, they, there is a period of time. I have two children, two human children, two dog children. My dog could be out here. My, my, my two human children I have a son who is 26, and my daughter is 29. She'll be 30. Wow, my God, I can't believe that. Holy cow. And, yeah, you do go through those those moments. And doing what you did is great. It's a great way to to bridge that gap, you know, and help her to understand where you're coming from, help her know your mind a little bit, and why you were doing the things you did, and why you said the things you said, and why you acted the way you did, and disciplined the way you did, and and so on and so forth.
I think that's a great idea. I really like that. That's probably one of the first things that that really jumped out at me when I started reading the book is like, this is great. I wish I thought of this. This was a great idea. It was fantastic. Thank you. You describe your writing as a blend of, of rage and reason. Emotion to discover problems, logic to solve them. How does that particular philosophy play out in your discussions, of this authoritarian drift that we're that we're seeing in America today or coming in America today?
[00:19:32] Unknown:
It plays out in exactly that order. So the start of each chapter, which is covering, you know, a different topic of modern day politics, is essentially, you know, the the father's rant on, the things that are causing me struggles and, may be an underlying issue of any failures. Well, I'm not saying that they're and they are the cause of any failures I have as a father, but they're what's happening inside my mind that maybe, like, I'm distracted by them and therefore don't fulfill all my, father fatherhood duties as well as I could.
And that rage and kind of isolation that comes with it, just based on the fact that nobody wants to really hang out with a guy that's pissed off all the time. So the the rage and isolation created in my response to, like, the modern world and, the erosions of what I see as, like, core American values is how I start off. And then, you know, the letters, I kind of try to they're more of a rejection of that rage. I also go throughout after the rage within the, the original essay part, kind of go through my reasoning and logic and be like, okay.
Something pisses you off, but, you know, what's actually the right thing to do in response? And like you said, the rage and reason the rage is how you identify a problem. You don't necessarily have to react with that same rage. You just have to be like, okay. Well, this is something that makes you angry or, you know, makes society angry. Anything going wrong in the country, you discover it with that rage or, you know, happiness as well is the the flip side to that for discovering opportunities. And then, you know, you have to, use your reason to kinda work through it. And I think if you if you lay it out ahead of time and you're able to go through the reasons positions on the things that make you mad while you're not actually in an emotional state, then you kind of hardwire your brain to, like, you know, have a have that reasons map inside your mind to, like, automatically know. Okay. I know what to do in this situation. I thought about I thought through this with reason in the past. I know the principled position to take and the principled action to take in in response to this.
And, that that's kind of what I try to teach and preach to my daughter in the the letters afterwards. It's okay to, you know, remain true to your principles if as long as you, you know, initially set out and say, these are my values, these are my principles, and here's the reasoned response behind the things that do make me mad.
[00:22:38] Unknown:
Mhmm. Now why don't you walk us through, your views on the state of censorship today in America? And and how do you guide your readers to respond to the state of censorship, to respond to injustice, both using rage and reason?
[00:23:00] Unknown:
So, the the the state of censorship that I see today is kind of, coming from both sides. Obviously, in the lead up to, twenty twenty election is when I I was kind of thinking more along the lines of, it's only on the left. Huge censorship, across pretty much every social media of all conservatives on anything from COVID lockdowns, Conor Biden laptop, all the everything that was happening in that lead up to that election. And that was a huge amount of rage for me. I I think censorship is probably one of the worst things that an institution can do.
I think that if you aren't able to actually express your opinions and the people around you aren't either, then you're not actually able to judge what they actually think, and you you're kind of never allowed to know someone because they they may be censored, maybe they're not. Maybe the things that they're saying, are their real opinions, maybe they're not. So it it further isolates everyone in the community because nobody can actually be sure that the things that they're hearing are the the person's real opinion or if it's just a censored version of it. So it's, it's like forced isolation for anyone that's, you know, thought that thought that through.
And then I kind of saw it more since 2020, 2025 this year on the right as well. And a little bit before that too. One thing that comes to mind was, post that Riley Gaines had made about somebody threatening one of the presidents. And, she said she never sees anybody on the right, make those same kind of threats. But, I typed it in and typed out exactly what she said she never saw. And then, obviously, it gets flagged, and then it gets auto deleted by, I believe it was on Twitter and, or x. And then I, you know, had to go into my email, take the screenshot, and then show it to her to be like, okay. Like, you don't actually know what the people in your own party are or are not saying, against your their enemies because, it's it's curated. Your experience and your reality are are all curated.
And I know that's not the same thing as government censorship, but it's just a comment on censorship itself. It doesn't matter where it's coming from. I'm not saying that private businesses shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm just saying the effect is the same. When there is censorship, you have a warped version of reality, and you don't know, like, the she there's nothing wrong with what she said. She just didn't like, the point is if you have censorship, you don't know what the world is saying
[00:26:20] Unknown:
or trying to say because they're censored. Well, yeah. Because the the the powers that be are trying to direct the conversation to to to what they want it to be so that there is no dissension. There is nobody speaking out against the wrongs or the rights that that that particular governing authority is is trying to control and manipulate. So yeah. No. And censorship has really has no place in an open free society. This country was basically founded on the idea of being able to say what you needed to say, say what you had to say, regardless of whether it upset somebody. You know, it's like what Voltaire says, you know, I may not agree with what you said. I'm paraphrasing of course, but I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. You know.
Censorship at any level, whether it's private, corporate, governmental, it's it's a violation of a fundamental freedom that that we derive from our creator. You know? It's it's a right that we have. And I know senator Cain in in Virginia that disagrees with me on that one. He thinks that rights derive from government and is very upset by the fact that we think that otherwise. But, did you see that clip, by the way? You know what I'm talking about? I did not, but I've seen the argument on
[00:27:41] Unknown:
of Both Ways online recently a lot. Yeah. Well On the origin of rights. Yeah. It came up it came up during the,
[00:27:49] Unknown:
the recent hearing with RFK Jr. And, and, he said he said, Senator McCain said he finds it disturbing that somebody would think that government doesn't issue and control rights. So I find that very, very disturbing myself. That no. Well, let me backtrack that a little bit. I find it disturbing that somebody in government thinks that government has control over those things. That's what I find disturbing. But, so so based on your book, you look at and you explored, opposing duties between fatherhood and citizenship. What challenges do you think people face most in balancing these things, and why do you think it's so difficult today?
[00:28:34] Unknown:
I think that, there's there are a lot of times there are overlap, but I think the biggest struggle is when the two go against each other. And then sometimes it's not so easy as, oh, this is the fatherhood duty. This is the, you know, the civilian or the community duty. A lot of times, you you kind of don't know which one's which and what what you're supposed to do, and I think that's the hardest one, the hardest situations, at least for me anyways, and I would assume, for a lot of other people. Yeah. You know, the biggest kind of idea I look at is, like, the the fact that as a father, we have to be, financially stable. We have to be protecting our children. We have to, you know, do all the basics of, hey. You need to like, I'm gonna keep you alive, and then you also have to teach them how to get along in the world.
But at the same time, you shouldn't have to teach them those things because you should change the world. You should also just make the world better and make it how it should run. And that's, like, the civic duty on on changing the country around you to fit a moral principle view. So it's kind of like, what do you like, there's, like, an opportunity cost in everything, and it's do you devote your life to raising your child to survive in this world, or do you devote your life into making the world the way it should be and giving you know, that that's the inheritance they get is rather than, you know, x amount of dollars.
It's we made we made the world, a better place, to live in than it was prior when I grew up. And I think of the citizenship kind of more along like, more abstract and, the fatherhood duties as more pragmatic. And it's a fine line of, how far can I go into teaching the principles without sacrificing the pragmatic needs I need to to provide for a family?
[00:30:53] Unknown:
Now your chapter on heroes and villains, warns against idolizing and vilifying celebrities, and politicians. Now, but at the same time, the book has some pretty harsh critical criticisms, you know. So how do you how do you kind of reconcile that? I mean, what mindset do you recommend for for working your way through this?
[00:31:16] Unknown:
So, individual actions of of politicians and celebrities, I I don't think that you can't say that, you know, that's an evil thing. If someone were to murder somebody, then you can say, okay. It's probably an evil person. But then if that same murder, runs in saves save some kittens out of a burning house, then you can't just be like this person early out. That evil person's running in there. Like, that individual action itself, has to be judged separately, and you're allowed to say that that's good even if it's an evil person. So imagine your least favorite politician, and they do something that aligns with you perfectly.
You can't just be like, I disagree with this now. It's it's not about the celebrity of the per you know, the celebrity itself. It's about the individual actions, the individual, ideologies, of a particular topic. And
[00:32:24] Unknown:
I kinda mix that into, like, single issue voting, things like that. Yeah. I I and I like that. Pragmatic attack or that you did that. I thought that was I thought that was really, really interesting. And, you laid out a few points between, and you you used you used president Trump, you used Elon Musk, And you brought some really, really good points. I mean, they're good on some things. They're not so good on other things. So can talk about that a little bit. Elaborate more on on those positions that you took.
[00:32:55] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:32:56] Unknown:
So spot. Go ahead.
[00:33:00] Unknown:
We'll we'll just go with Trump. He pretty in my opinion, he his campaign speeches and the things that he said were kind of not right on point with my beliefs, but a lot of them overlapped. He had he was more libertarian, I think, in his, campaign speeches and promises. And then he'd never kind of delivered on them. He kinda went back on a bunch of them. So let's say you're a huge Trump guy though, but you're an but you like the anti war part. Just I gotta do a specific. Because he kind of ran on that, and he's like, oh, this Russia Ukraine thing, I'll end that. The the Israel Palestine thing, I'll end that. And so if you are anti war, you can't just now say, well, he's one of my heroes, so I have to just back him no matter what. It's well, you don't. Just say I he's got this one position wrong. It's he's not a hero, and if you hate him and, let's see. What's what's something he's done that the left would like?
I know I don't know if he's actually done this, but I know during campaigning, he mentioned, like, IVF for all. And I would imagine that that would be a big win for people on the left that they would love that. So that's like you know, you can't if you if if you hate him and he's evil and he does that and it matches how you think government should be run, then you have to say, okay. Good. That's it's then like that one position. It's fine. You don't have to commit your entire life to saying this person is evil and everything they do is evil or this person is good and everything they say is good. Just have different opinions on different subjects. It's fine. Nobody's gonna think any less of you.
[00:35:02] Unknown:
Yeah. I I try to think of something like you mentioned something that that president Trump said or did that the left would like. President can Trump president Trump can cure cancer tomorrow and the left will scream apoplectic about taking away their right to have cancer. You know, it's it's there's nothing he could do that that will please the left. I, you know, and disclosure, I I am a Trump supporter. I I think he's doing a I think he's doing a a good job. If I was to give him an, a grade, like a school grade, I would give him probably like an A, maybe an A minus. I'm not thrilled with everything, that's going on. I would like to see the war come to an end in Ukraine. It's not our war, and I know that he campaigned on try on on ending that war. I would like to see it end.
Not that I care about what goes on between Russia and Ukraine. I just don't want the money to be spent. You know, that money is, you know, that that's that's money that you and I work for work hard for, and, could use that money to take care of our own families and our own particular needs. Why are we funding the pensions of people in Ukraine during this war with with all our tax dollars? And what happened to all this money that went over that way? A lot of it has not, manifested itself according to what, if you well, if you believe what Zelensky says. So, of course, I would love to see that come to an end. Again, not for the matter because I don't care. I don't care what happens to Russia and Ukraine. It doesn't affect me. It's not it's their problem. Let them deal with it. Leave me alone.
You know. It's the money. I I I don't wanna see the money being spent. The other issue is this this this again, the conflict with, you mentioned, Israel and and, Hamas and Palestinian state and all that stuff. You know what? Honestly, I don't care about that either. They've been at each other's throats for centuries. Just let them be. Let them kill each other, you know. Eventually it'll come. And I'm being sarcastic, you know, but let them be. Let them fight their own battle. And again, coming from a position I don't know what your religious background is I am a born again Christian. Alright? I do believe that, in that passage of scripture where where where God says, you know, I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curseth thee, you know, and all that stuff. I believe that stuff.
But because I believe that doesn't mean I have to support a corrupt government. You know what I'm saying? So there's a difference here, you know. Yes, I love the Jewish people, yes, yes, I do believe that they are God's chosen earthly people, I do believe that, but it doesn't mean that I have to walk lockstep with a corrupt government leading those Jewish people. So I agree. I so so on those marks, I I I wouldn't give them a passing grade on those things. But, you know, as far as securing the border, look, I live in a border town. I live in Eagle Pass, Texas. You know, I'm I'm five minutes away from the border. I'm I'm just a few I'm even closer to Shelby Park where that standoff took place between the state and the federal government under the Biden administration. I'm not far away from him. I've seen this stuff, you know, firsthand.
You know, so I I I give him an A double plus on the border stuff. You know, I think he did a fantastic job. The ICE deportations. Hey, if you're here illegally, you don't belong here. He's gotta go. You know, let's go. Get him out. I agree with that. I I, you know, I don't I don't think there should be any exemptions to it. Yeah. I don't care what some screaming liberal has to say about, well, they they were entitled to due process. No. They're not. They're here illegally. You know? Due process doesn't apply if you're here illegally and you're not a citizen of The United States. You know? Due process in The United States is for United States citizens. You know? So, so they gotta go. Get in line. Come in the right way. You're more than welcome to come in the right way. It's breaking the law that's the problem for me. It's it's it's it's, you know, you're you're not here to do any good if you're breaking the law to get here.
So Right. You know?
[00:39:18] Unknown:
Yeah. The, the the comment of they haven't like, they're arresting people or deporting people that haven't broken any laws, but it's like, oh, no. I mean, the base state is if you are here illegally, you're automatically you you have broken the law. Exactly. Exactly. By default.
[00:39:36] Unknown:
Absolutely. And and and the funny thing is though, it's it's it's so common sense when you think about it. It shouldn't even be an issue that that we that we're arguing over or discussing. It's it's it's this is just be common sense. You don't belong here. You gotta go. And So Here's something I gotta admit.
[00:39:58] Unknown:
Alright. You're here. Kind of embarrassing. No. Okay. Into later than I would like to admit I won't give a a number. Late into life, later than I should have believed this, I was under the impression that our border was like movies where, like, you know, the they're trying to escape to Mexico, and then there's, like, a bunch of armed people that are, like, shooting out the tires. I thought that, like, our entire border was, like, armed guards for way longer than I probably should have.
[00:40:31] Unknown:
Okay. So we won't go further than that then.
[00:40:34] Unknown:
So, yeah, I I kind of was was like, yeah. That makes sense. Like, if somebody invades your country, you could they get you gotta shoot at them. Like, I thought that was the thing.
[00:40:46] Unknown:
Right. I didn't yeah. I I could I could understand that. But the recent estimate that I had, was, 52,000,000 illegal aliens in this country.
[00:40:59] Unknown:
That's in a sixth of the country?
[00:41:02] Unknown:
52,000,000 illegal aliens.
[00:41:05] Unknown:
That's insane.
[00:41:06] Unknown:
Yeah. It is. And I think I think this is like 30 of 30,000,000 came in under the Biden administration.
[00:41:14] Unknown:
So Yeah. That's a quick pickup. Not not very sustainable. Exactly. I thought they liked sustainability.
[00:41:21] Unknown:
Yeah. No. That was their buzzword. Sustainable for the Democrats. Yeah. For sure. Because now they're getting they're gonna, you know, they're giving them, driver's licenses, which means that they can vote and they all that stuff. So, yeah, it's sustainable for them because it's gonna provide a voter base for them. Wow. To sustain them. For for twelve years until we go bankrupt. Well, yeah. I I think we already are bankrupt. They're just they're just not telling us yet. So Oh, yeah. True. But, that's another issue altogether.
[00:41:50] Unknown:
Alright. And there's the chapter on the Fed.
[00:41:53] Unknown:
Yeah. There it is.
[00:41:55] Unknown:
Take a look. We'll never go bankrupt.
[00:41:58] Unknown:
Not as long as you can print money. Not as long as you can print it. It'll be worthless. Money to buy bombs. It'll be worthless, but we can print the money. You know? It that's that's the crazy thing. So what kind of transformation or insights can readers expect from your book?
[00:42:15] Unknown:
Well, if you if you, take the advice of the book, and it's, the main advice I would say is that you should, like I was saying, actually sit down, consider your values, your principles, who you care about, how you think you should protect them, what they need protected from, and write them down. And, you know, don't just have it in your head. Say it to someone. Say it to people you love. Say it to as many people as you can to get it out there. And I'm not saying you can't change your mind, but once it's out there in the world, it makes it more real.
Like, what are your lines in the sand? So when those lines in the sand are crossed, you kind of feel morally obligated to do something about it because you already told everyone that that's your line in the sand. And you're kind of you're kind of, like, setting a trap for your future self of, like, I'm not gonna let my future self get away with this with, you know, let's say abortion is your, your biggest issue. So set a set a line in the sand on your opinions left, you know, whichever way you go, and say if this is ever crossed, then I'm not gonna stand for it. And then when that day happens, because, like, during COVID, we realized I think a lot of our lines in the sand were crossed, and no no one did anything.
And so, if that's your biggest thing, if, like, kinda lockdowns are your your big one, your number one issue, then, when that's crossed, you you kind of, you owe it to your previous self to do something about it.
[00:44:05] Unknown:
I agree with you. I agree with you. Now, your your work touches on desires for bravery, safety, and preserving freedoms. Do, do most people approach those with a clear sense of their priorities? Or do you think, they need help uncovering them through stories of personal mistakes and, decaying society?
[00:44:34] Unknown:
Bray so bravery and safety. So I think that, could you repeat it? Sorry. I got lost in my own mind.
[00:44:45] Unknown:
Okay. So so I guess the basically, the question is, the book the book the book you wrote talks about, having desires for bravery, safety, preserving freedom, and, you know, so I think some people have a problem, approaching those things. So, do you do you think that do you think that how do I now see, I I chat about it. I think I got it. So so, uncovering them through stories of personal mistakes and decay, do you think that helps people, approach these with a clear sense of priority?
[00:45:24] Unknown:
Yeah. I yeah. Okay. So, like, on bravery and safety and the stories and mistakes of those around us, I think we kind of, we do need those, and we need to pass them on to our kids. And, I guess I'm saying, like, without those this kind of it's kind of a continuation of what I was saying with the the lines in the sand, and that needs to be your moment of of bravery. And sometimes you won't get the, you won't get the mistake or you won't get the opportunity to actually be brave because that never act it may never actually happen. I didn't like, if it weren't for 2020, it may never have happened in my life.
And I think that it you know, that's kind of a benefit. It's a chance for us that, you know, that bad bad story from our life in 2020 is gonna be an opportunity to pass that down and, lock on to that value, of what I I consider that my safety. Like, other people might think they're like, the COVID lockdowns were about giving them safety. I think safety is is preserving our freedoms and, like, resisting the lockdown because I I feel like government is a bigger threat than a cold.
[00:46:56] Unknown:
Yeah. I I I I would agree with you, and, had a great conversation with another guest last week about this too. This, you know, the whole the whole thing with the government, with with the lockdowns, I my opinion, and I'm don't think I'm wrong on this, I think a lot of it was a a test to see how far they can push, for an eventual, for eventual permanent lockdowns. For, for the next pandemic that the quote unquote pandemic that's going to come around, it'll be that much easier to get people to to to comply. It'll be that much easier because now they're already geared up for that. And then, of course, that'll come into with, you know, you're familiar with, Agenda 2030?
[00:47:42] Unknown:
Is that the, like, the,
[00:47:45] Unknown:
WEF. Plan? Yeah. WEF thing, you know, you'll you'll have you'll own nothing and be happy. Yeah. You know, it's it's all pushing toward that stuff. That's the the central the central bank digital currencies because, you know, god you know, wrongthink will get your your account blocked out. You won't be able to buy anything, sell anything, you know, do anything because, you know, unless until you until you walk in line with what the government's telling you you need to do. So that's what I think that was all about. I think that a lot of that has to do with, just getting people into lockstep.
[00:48:15] Unknown:
So that that kinda reminds me of, I didn't know if, like, I stopped I slowed down on drinking for my own reasons, but I did see, a thing today or a few days ago, some sometime recently about, like, a decrease just in general of drinking in America, like, from previous generations. Yeah. And, I'm wondering if, like, that kind of had something to do with it just because, you know, everybody became less attached to people even though it wasn't, like, you know, an entire year where nobody saw each other. It wasn't that. It could have been that, but it wasn't. But, like, just that shock of, like, disrupting people's lives, you know, that could be an added benefit. You could say that.
Yeah. No drinking. But at the same time, it's drinking's associated with socializing, and it's so, like, I think maybe the get people to socialize less just on a grander scale may have been, like, an intentional thing.
[00:49:20] Unknown:
Well, the interesting thing is that during the lockdowns, the, you know, strip clubs were open, casinos were open, liquor stores are open, bars were open. You were able to do all that stuff?
[00:49:31] Unknown:
There's there's a lot of things like events, at least, that got canceled on on my end.
[00:49:38] Unknown:
They weren't, like, just a lot of individual things, but as far as businesses go, I mean, those things are still open and available. I think I think alcoholism, I think the drinking and and drug use and all that stuff increased during that period of time, and now it's on a decline going back to where the guys the normal levels would have been. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So that that's why you're seeing that that marked decrease in that. But, I mean, I I don't know. I mean, I could be wrong. Look. I'm Italian. That's what we do. You know? I don't know. That could be wrong. You know? That that's just
[00:50:05] Unknown:
that's what I I got it.
[00:50:08] Unknown:
That's that's what I think anyway. So for for those people that want it all, you know, the the the strong family bonds, you know, the civic duty, economic fairness, resistance to authoritarianism, how do you help prioritize, especially when views like yours have affected personal relationships?
[00:50:25] Unknown:
How do I prioritize what?
[00:50:29] Unknown:
How do you help them prioritize those things? Strong family bonds, civic duty, economic fairness, resistance, authoritarianism.
[00:50:40] Unknown:
I mean, those are those are the values and principles that I hold true, but I'm not really necessarily saying that everybody should match mine. And every I think they should. Don't get me wrong. But it's it's less about convincing them that very narrow, aren't you? No. I I'm just saying I think you should like what I like. It's like, if I thought some other value system was better than mine, I would just change my value system to that value system. Okay. So, yes, I I think all of my opinions are the best opinion you could have. Otherwise, I'd change my opinion.
But I'm not saying you have to agree with me on everything. I just think that the more it's more about the fervor and that you have for your principles, whatever they are. That's more important. And, family values are pretty tried and true tested set of values that have gotten civilization through a lot of time. So, it's hard to argue against that many years of history. But if you have some logical argument, like, on why it's worse and your personal beliefs are better, then so be it. But you need to sit down, like I said, argue with yourself, write them out, tell people why you believe them.
Don't just say this is I believe this, say why you believe it. And if it's dumb, I'm sure somebody on the Internet will be glad to tell you why it's dumb. Oh, yeah. I can I can help you test it out? One thing I did, or I've been, like, a little side project, I mentioned in the book, but it's not, like, a major part of the book. But, I testing my moral framework with AI, and I'm trying to, like, build that up, build a program that does that and lets, you know, you have an account that's you, like, ask yourself a bunch of questions, and then it finds contradictions in your moral framework, and then you can test each other's, like, oh, what does Jack think on gun rights?
And then you go ask, and then it'll, like, say, according to all of Jack's rules of logic and, like, the things he values, this is what he thinks on gun rights. And then you you could be like, oh, actually, I asked Jack about that the other day, and he just he does he disagrees with that. And then he, like, messaged me and say, hey. Your thing's broken. You gotta go fix it. And then I go update my moral framework to, like because there's a contradiction in it, and it's just like a a test for yourself. So
[00:53:20] Unknown:
if I ever get that off the grounds, that's a a really good way to test yourself. That'd be that'd be pretty interesting. I'd like to check it out. Alright. Until then, just argue with your friends. Perfect. Alright. Final thoughts. Our next guest is lining up. So our final thoughts here. So what do you hope the audience takes away from this conversation today?
[00:53:39] Unknown:
I hope they go to jemcmahon.com and buy my book. And then, other than that was was kind of that. The the having principles write them down, lay them out in a logical fashion so when something bad does happen, you have a logical reason to position behind your rage so your rage doesn't kind of take over and make you react to something incorrectly.
[00:54:08] Unknown:
Alright. Outstanding. So, I know you already did it, but where can the audience go to find out your find your book and learn more about you, your work?
[00:54:15] Unknown:
J e McMahon, which is m c m a h o n. I have all my socials linked on there. And then also the Substack, which is only a a few articles that's about the AI moral framework.
[00:54:26] Unknown:
Alright. Outstanding. Jack, thank you so much. Again, I I'm sorry for the, the the the the hiccup getting the stream started today. Again, first time using StreamYard and, of course, the thing gives me a problem and we have to restart everything. So and you know what you know what I forgot to do? What's that? I forgot I forgot to start the the audio stream.
[00:54:49] Unknown:
What do you mean?
[00:54:50] Unknown:
So I I live stream audio and the video. Oh, okay. I forgot to start the audio stream. Oh, okay. So, like, the,
[00:54:59] Unknown:
the no video version.
[00:55:01] Unknown:
Yeah. So I have to figure out how to get that uploaded to the to to my host platform after the show. We'll figure that out somehow. Alright. Jack McMahon, thank you so much for being with us. For having me. What's that? I said thank you for having me. Oh, you're well. And my pleasure. We'll we'll definitely get you back on again. Alright. Folks, Jack McMahon, thank you so much, my friend. Alright, folks. So what we're gonna do is we have, Josh Lewis waiting in the wings. So we'll we'll bring him on here momentarily. We're gonna take a very, very quick break. I'm gonna go use a little restroom here, and get some more coffee, and maybe some bourbon.
We'll see. We'll see. Alright, folks. So, just stick with this. Don't forget, this is a live show, weeknights, 7PM central time. And, still learning my way through all of the, intricacies of StreamYard here, so bear with us on this one. Alright. So we'll be back in, just about, two minutes or so. Alright. We'll be right back. Stay with us. Hey. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share with all your friends, your family, and followers. Alright. Hey, folks. First hour is in the books. Welcome back to the Joe Russo. My name is Joe Russo. It is great to be here with you guys again for our numero dos.
How you like my Spanish there? It's what I picked up living down here by the border. Alright. Jack McMahon, that was great. And, no, Jack. I just saw your I just saw your private chat, Jack, if you're still listening or watching. No. It's the bourbon is not because of you. The bourbon is because of all the headaches that we had at the start of the show with the stream crashing. Alright. Right before we bring in Josh Lewis, let's take care of a little bit of the, bill payments. So let's, swing on over and okay. I guess not. Let's try that again.
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Alright. Josh Lewis, a CPA from Tulsa, works for the Oklahoma State Auditor's Office. With over a decade auditing governments, he offers an outsider's take on politic on politics inaction. Having been an active participant in the Republican Party, Josh stepped down as Tulsa County Republican Party treasurer in 2016 over disagreements with the party's direction. A student of conservative thinkers like Edmund Burke. Edmund Burke. That's a name. Edmund Burke. Russell Kirk. Thomas Sowell. He hosts the Saving Elephants podcast. So like I told you at the beginning of the show, has nothing to do with conserving elephants. Alright? It's talking about conservative think, conservative thought. Josh is passionate about sharing conservatism with, conservatism's depth with millennials tackling their unique challenges, like reviving subcultures, rebuilding civil society, and balancing order with liberty. Josh, welcome to the show.
[01:04:19] Unknown:
My apologies. Bad start there. I was just saying it was great to be with you, and I'm I'm glad to be on the other side of StreamYard. Sorry to hear you're having some difficulties, but it's it's been a lovely platform for me. Oh, no. No. It's not the platform. It's me. That's
[01:04:32] Unknown:
you know? Yeah. I I I I did a test run with a with a buddy of mine over the weekend, and, went fine swimmingly. No problems. No issues. No concerns. Nothing. Today, I hit that go live button, and one of the platforms was coming back saying it's not properly configured. So That's frustrating. It's ridiculous. It really is. But especially because I used the static stream key. Mhmm. So it shouldn't have a problem like that. But none nonetheless, we did. But we got I think we started about, like, maybe ten or so minutes late. So but we're here. That's what that's what's important. Well, hopefully, it's smooth selling from this point onward. I hope so. I hope so. And, I don't know if you heard, but, but, Jack text sent me a private message on the in the private chats asking if the bird was because of him. It's not because of all the headache starting with the show. You know, and I I'm
[01:05:27] Unknown:
like I said, it's interesting being on the other side of it because I actually saw that message in back in the green room. I could see him, messaging in that. And I'm sure that's what your first guest says guests are always hoping is that I hope he's not reaching for the bourbon after I get off this thing. I think you hope. You hope.
[01:05:43] Unknown:
So, so this is great. I was looking forward to talking to you. This was I thought this was, there he is. He's in the he's in the, rumble chat. Let's give him a little hello there. Alright. So, what was I saying? Oh, yeah. So I've been looking forward to this, actually. We started messaging back and forth a while a little while ago, and, the schedule finally opened up where we can get on the on together. And, you know, I love what you're doing. I've been listening to some of your podcasts and, your own and some of the ones that you've been on. And, and man, I I I'm really impressed, and I'm I'm I'm glad we were able to get this time in together. So, without Awesome. Without dragging things on too much, first important question is, what is something most people don't know about you but should? Oh,
[01:06:32] Unknown:
gosh. Wow. That was a well, the but should is the hard part. There's a lot of things people don't know about me, but I don't know that they're all that important. I've never blown a bubble with bubble gum, but I don't know that that needs to be podcast. For those who don't know, and honestly, probably if you listen to my podcast, you probably do. I play, a mean five string banjo. I think it's an incredible instrument. It's a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of banjos that are much better than I am. But fortunately, as a banjos, you don't have to be that good and you can impress people because there's not that many people that play it. But it's it's an authentic you know, that in the saxophone, the authentic American instruments, and there's just something
[01:07:10] Unknown:
so earthy about the banjo. It's so rooted in our country that I I I just love it. Well, I love I love a good banjo. I I honestly, I'm not just saying that because you hear it. That's God's honest truth. I love a good banjo. As a matter of fact, what very interesting source is is how I got attracted to the banjo. It was a movie called Deliverance. You ever see that?
[01:07:35] Unknown:
I've seen the famous, well, let me rephrase the famous scene. There's two famous scenes. I've seen the scene where the dueling banjos is played, and I know that song. It's a great song. Yeah. No. For sure it is. That's, that was a young Joe Biden playing,
[01:07:49] Unknown:
and, playing the banjo there. But, but,
[01:07:54] Unknown:
so true.
[01:07:56] Unknown:
Strange but true. Yes. The, but but that's what turned me on to to to the banjo, actually, because I I saw that. I was I was quite young when I saw that movie. And, I was like, oh, that's awesome, man. I love that. That that's that's crazy. It's such a fun instrument. It's you can't help but smile some or groan. Smile or groan. Well, you know, depending on how good the banjo player is. Fair. They call them banjoists? Or
[01:08:21] Unknown:
I call them banjoist. I don't know that I've ever heard of a I I well, there's probably some less children appropriate terms, but, yes, banjoist is the most common, term.
[01:08:33] Unknown:
Alright. And, by the way, if you hear, if you hear a a smoker's cough type bark coming from the other side, that's my boy, Charlie.
[01:08:41] Unknown:
Okay.
[01:08:42] Unknown:
He he's he's my, he's my time gauge. So I'll know when it's time to end the show when I start hearing him barking at the door, because that's him letting me know that it's that he's hungry, he wants to eat. So anyway anyway, alright. So we got that one out of the way. And now here's the second one. What is your go to beverage to help you unwind at the end of the day?
[01:09:03] Unknown:
I am well, I'm actually a teetotaler, in in more ways than one. That's that's that's one of the few things Donald Trump and I have in common, neither of his drink. But I'm also a teetotaler in that I really like tea, actually. I I've never acquired a taste for coffee. I love the smell. Never acquired a taste for it, though. But I I enjoy the ridiculous variety of tea out there. And this late at night, I tend to drink the non caffeinated stuff. But, you know, I just like getting lost. And and any month you ask me, I probably might have a different literally cup of tea that's my favorite. Okay. But I just like that kind of endless variety, and and it's a it's a nice lift. You know, it's got caffeine in it, but it doesn't give you the, the jitters like coffee would, for which someone like me is is an issue.
[01:09:44] Unknown:
I never I never liked tea up until, I wanna say I got COVID the first time. Nope. That's when I that's when I started to like tea because I couldn't drink the coffee because the coffee tasted horrible and bitter. It was just nasty. And, my wife at the time introduced me to green tea with honey and and, lime. Mhmm. So that that just became my go to, and I I enjoyed that. I I I will honestly say that I probably have a nice cup of green tea exactly the same way,
[01:10:16] Unknown:
at least three or four times a week. I wish I could remember the guy's name. There was a French general in World War one. You know, World War one was a horrible situation. He was on the front lines. He was in the trenches. And it was just simply understood among his lieutenants that at a certain time of day, you didn't interrupt him no matter how dire the situation was because that was his tea time. You know? He he knew how to to do self self care pretty well, I guess, even in the middle of a war situation.
[01:10:41] Unknown:
No no matter what's going on around me, I don't care if they're bombing the bunker. Exactly. I'm having my tea. Leave me alone. The routine was important. That's awesome. I'm telling you, you you do when you study history and you really look at history, you you see just some really wild characters out there. You know, you know, one of my favorite quotes is is, from General Patton. You know, he said, you know, I don't like paying for the same real estate twice. Talking about whether or not to retreat or advance. You know, I I love that quote, and and I actually use it quite frequently, especially at my job, you know. So if I have to go fix something, I don't wanna have to go back and fix it again. So be careful with it, you know, and I'll tell that to people. So, so it's, so I I love studying history. History is one of my favorite things, to talk about. I love American history.
You know, I I I got myself in trouble before for saying something like this, and I'm gonna say it again, because I don't really care. I don't believe that the World War two generation is the greatest generation. Great generation? Yes. Greatest generation? No. I believe that the greatest generation is our founding generation. Ah. Because they were thinkers. They were men of action. They've they've they've built a country from the ground up, which is not something you get to do very often in anyone's lifetime. And they entrusted future generations with this republic, which would which with which what we have, and I think that if our founding generation could come back for an for an hour and see what we've done with it, there would be public executions.
There would be tarring and feathering. It would it would because this is so far so far away from what our founding generation envisioned for what this republic was to be. And, so that's why I I consider them the greatest generation. There will never be another generation like that. A man of deep, profound thought. You know?
[01:12:56] Unknown:
Go. Oh, I'm sorry to to interrupt. It's just I I like the way you said that. I was I was, when you said not the great generation, well, he must be picking a different generation. I was wondering who where you're gonna go, but, yeah, you'd be hard pressed to find a better generation of Americans than than the founding. Now I wanna add one thing to what you said. It is true. It's very rare for for a group of individuals to have the opportunity to build a nation, but some have done it. And I think that too highlights why the American founders was such a great generation because others who have done it are the French revolutionaries or the Russian Bolsheviks.
Those experiments didn't turn out real well. What the American founders gave us lasted, and that that that was they were more than just idealists. They were more than just doers. I think they had a profound sense of the weakness of human nature, but also its capacity. And and they they didn't get caught up in sort of utopian ideas of what could be, but rather truly unleashed, you know, liberty and an ordered structure in a way that others who have tried to do similar things have failed miserably. And thank God we had the founders we did because they succeeded.
[01:13:58] Unknown:
Oh, I agree with you. I I a 100% agree with you. And it's like what Benjamin Franklin said after the constitutional convention, you know, when he was asked, so what do we have? And he said a republic if you can keep it. Yeah. Unfortunately, that's where we are today. Are we going to be able to keep this republic? Listening to some of the shows that you've done, one particular one I listened to today, what was the name of the show you were on? I'm sorry, man. It just flipped out of my head. Oh, it's okay. It's, I I'll I'll I'll remember it later on. It'll pop in my head.
But you were talking about, you meant you were talking about the founding generation. You were talking about those issues that were there and how, you know, a republic is very fragile. Mhmm. You know, a republic is only as strong as the generation that's living in it. And, you know, I I I I fear for what the future of this republic that we have is because less and less you hear the term republic when people are referring to The United States or or what I like to call it, the American Union. It's, much like the European Union. You know, it's a it's a it's a, a a a a conglomeration of of individual sovereign states. This is this is where I also get in trouble too because people disagree with me on this one.
It's it's a conglomeration of of individual sovereign countries that have come together and formed a compact for mutual defense and common trade. That's what the founding generation's view of what the republic was to be. It has gotten so far away from that. Now you you hear the term somebody I like I don't like to use the term nation. Alright? Because a nation implies no borders, no no no individual sovereignty of the states. It rep to me, it it it speaks of one powerful central government controlling everything and everybody. So I try to stay away from that. Unfortunately, you're you're conditioned to use that word from from school going forward, from grade school up.
So every now and then you slip with it. But my my home, my country is Texas right now. You know, I was born and raised in the state of New York, the country of New York. We have gotten so far away from that where states have no idea what their identity is. And once that happens, I think the Republic is gone. And that's the direction I see us going. And that scares me. It it scares me because I love the way our founding generation set it up. Were they right in everything? No. They weren't. You know, they made mistakes. They made some colossal mistakes in in some ways, and the generation succeeding that. Absolutely. A friend of mine just texted me and said, shut up and let him speak.
[01:16:57] Unknown:
No. I'm enjoying it. I'm sorry. Well, like, if I I could I could riff off what you just said there because I I think I think it is true from a certain lens that certainly, you know, that that the founders had envisioned more of a lot let's say at the time, 13 sovereign nations who themselves came together to form a a union. Mhmm. What you're describing, though, of course, was deep at the debate between the founders themselves, not only in the declaration and the constitution, but many years later between the Federalist and the Anti Federalist or then later the Federalist and the Democrats. And and I think there is a certainly a more an app a proper American tradition of sort of the more Jeffersonian, say, not just him, but that would have a more, this term could be a little problematic, but I'll try to explain myself, confederated views, say, if you will. Yeah. I agree. Every every time I say that word, I preface it, you know, with Right. It it came to mean different things up in antebellum American prior to the civil war. But at the time, it was more of an understanding of, no. These are these I think the best way I've I've heard it phrased before is there was a time in The United States where we said The United States are, whereas now we say The United States is.
Right. It's a different way of thinking of it. And and this makes sense. These are individual, colonies that they had probably a stronger sense of I'm from Maryland or Georgia or or Massachusetts than they did that I am this other relatively recent thing, a new nation. The alternative view there was Hamilton's, of course, which, and it wasn't just him, but he was probably the head of that spear, that it was necessary to have a strong central government. Now let me be really careful here in saying a Hamiltonian strong central government is radically different from, say, a Woodrow Wilson FDR modern progressive America central government. Yes. He did not mean entitlement system. He did not mean a welfare state. He meant rather you needed a national military, because European powers could in fact take us over. And you also needed some sort of a cohesive sense of identity, else these individual colonies would eventually just start warring with each other. I he also had a very strong sense of you need a central, and this may be getting this way off in in in left field, but some sort of a central bank to establish a central monetary system.
Yeah. There there's there's something we could argue about for half an hour. But but I I guess what I'm saying is both of these, I would view as equally legitimate American traditions. Mhmm. I would also say depending on where we're at in history, either one of them taken to an extreme is very dangerous. I think an extreme confederation does in fact evolve. We are different than, say, the the EU or or the European Union in that, I don't know if it's still this way, but I know at one time you could take a euro and look at the back of it. Because I I went to Europe once, and I have these euros, and I looked at it. It was like, I don't recognize the structure on the back. Like, I you know, there there's there's really famous structure. Europe probably has more famous structures than anywhere else in the world. Where where's the Eiffel Tower? You know? Where's, you know, where's this or that?
And I read an article later that said these were fictitious buildings, that they were done that way so as not to elevate any one nation over the other. They were creating whole cloth out of thin air this nation, air quotes, if you will, of Europe, which doesn't exist. And and I think here in The US, we have thankfully been able to do something a little different. There is a stronger sense in which we Americans can identify as American. And and here you may and I may just simply have a disagreement. I'm an Oklahoman second. I'm an American first. Mhmm. But I also recognize that the federated system we have necessitates Oklahoma has to be different than Texas. Mhmm. And Texas has to be different than New York. Correct. And that is the direction you know, I I will agree with you here.
We have moved way beyond, you know, the the the more Jeffersonian view of everything falling breaking apart. We're way too centralized now, and that is the great danger of this moment is not that we're taking Hamilton's view, but that we have lost our sense of sovereignty as individual states and as a result, lost part of our sovereignty as citizens.
[01:21:03] Unknown:
I agree with you. And, you know, it's not a it's not a Democrat Republican thing either. This is, you know, this is the fault of both parties, or or every party that has been in existence in this country since the foundation. You know, little by little, you're seeding more and more responsibility away from the states to the central government or or, I like what the I like what our founding generation called them, the general government. Mhmm. You know, would would forward would would just cede more and more authority over until we're in the situation that we're in now where you have this monstrosity of a central government, of a general government overseeing every little aspect of your life, including how much water's in your toilet.
I mean Yeah. You're talking about a ridiculous overreach. You know, I would love to see it stripped down to its constitutional authority. You know, the specific agencies that that that the Constitution says there should be. Not all of these added on things and other departments and whatnot that that just have no real accountability to the individual citizen or state that just pretty much seem to run willy nilly, do whatever they wanna do with no oversight, no accountability. I mean, I think it's I think it's I think it's pretty ridiculous, and as we're going somewhere else at this, I I think. But I I I think that it's absolutely ridiculous that we have a federal reserve that can be that that they're appointed by the president of The United States, but can't be removed Mhmm. By the president of The United States, who appointed them in the first place.
You know, I think that's I think that's that's that's incredibly dangerous that that this unelected group of people are running our financial policy, basically. That they're in control of interest rates, which costing you and me more money. Which costing the federal government more money in interest payments on their debt, which is, which then of course trickles right down to the individual taxpayer, and you're overburdened. So I think that's a it's a very dangerous thing in that we have, and I think that's something I would love to see stripped down and gone. Now I understand Congress is can revoke the charter for the Federal Reserve and and strip it down. Will they? Probably not. Never happened. Just like You can't get Congress to do the most basic thing today, let alone revoke a charter.
Right. Well, that and I was just gonna also comment on on the district court judges. I I distinctly remember Mike Johnson saying that Congress has the authority to disband the district courts. Okay. Well, let's do it. Shut them down. They're not they're not required in the constitution. Constitution doesn't establish district courts as a permanent thing. They establish district courts as a needed thing. So I think I would love to see congress act on these things, but they don't. They don't. Because there's really no interest in it. Because they're not they're not really that upset or bothered by the system. They wanna keep the thing going. And we're off we're way off in the weeds. I know. We're way off in the weeds. Let's let's do this. Let's let's let's get to the notes here. Let's let's talk about your journey from, College Republicans, president to stepping down as a party treasurer in 2016.
Why? What what what what shaped your decision to to to distance yourself from part from the party? And how did that lead to what you're doing right now with, Saving Elephants?
[01:24:34] Unknown:
Well, I I will try my best to give you a short answer. And if you want me to expand upon it, please let me know because, because I could go on and on. I don't wanna bore the audience. Although I might be alienating some of the audience and saying that the chief concern I had was, in fact, Donald Trump in 2016. I had long been I I've always been a Republican. I was for years prior to that. I'm I'm in my early forties, so I, you know, I and I I was interested in politics at a young age, so I had vivid memories of Clinton and certainly George w Bush and Barack Obama. And my concern at that time was that the Republican Party was primarily offering a moderated position, a a watered down conservatism.
And what I meant by that was that they were not in fact interested in a limited government in a lot of ways as as you're describing, But we're we're okay not only with the entitlement system, but consistently wanting to expand it. It is true that spending expanded in the Reagan administration, but I think he was probably the closest thing in the last century to a a conservative well, barring Calvin Coolidge, say, to a conservative president or what's that? In our lifetime. In our lifetime. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Good point. That would be sort of the model I was hoping we could get back to. And I thought there was, you know, varying degrees of that within the conservative movement within the Republican Party.
When Trump came along, I think he spoke to the the disaffected masses that were also very upset with, say, the Bush administration, but for slightly different reasons. I think for them, it was and I'm not trying to speak for other people, but it just seemed evident that it wasn't ultimately about the limitation of government or runaway spending as much as it was. The elites have failed us. Those in charge of the neocons have gotten us into a war we ought not to have been in. The housing market has collapsed. The bankers have profited handsomely. And, you know, what about us? Like, we're paying our taxes fair and square. We're obeying laws, and looks like the criminals are getting away with stuff.
And it was more than just that. But I you know, at in in the debate when when Donald Trump literally turns to Jeb Bush and says nine eleven happened when your brother was president in a Republican setting, you know, it was very obvious that there must be a lot of anger here towards the Bushes if he's not laughed off the stage for saying something like that. And then, of course, he says John McCain isn't the you know, I don't I prefer my heroes not being captured or something to that effect. It represented, I thought, Donald Trump a hostile takeover of of the GOP in in effect. A sort of the elites have felt us, and therefore we're going this new direction. I did not, care for the direction he wanted to go for the simple reason that he, well, first of all, I don't think he had the character then or now that I would like in a leader. But he was also just flatly I I mean, I'll I'll give him credit for this. He flatly said, I'm not gonna change entitlements. We're gonna get rid of the fraud and corruption. That's gonna that's somehow gonna solve the, the trillion dollar bloated deficit we have, which is untrue, by the way. But at least he he wasn't doing doing what a lot of Republicans do, which is we're gonna fix it, and then they don't actually do anything about it. Right.
I will admit in 2016, and for good reason, I was far more concerned that Trump was essentially a left winger in hiding. There's a lot of evidence for that as far as his past history went. He he is not that, I don't think. I don't believe he's a conservative, and I don't mean that as an insult. I just mean I think he is a nationalist populist. I don't think he's for the sort of limited government I would be for. But but he's not like a Hillary Clinton or he's not an AOC. He's he's not a socialist. He's not a left winger. And certainly in culture war matters, he is certainly not of the left. But but I guess I'm trying to summarize here. I was very disheartened by the direction the party chose to go and has since doubled down on, if you will.
And and so my hope is, especially speaking to younger Americans, that there are alternatives to the failed establishment and to the current trajectory of the GOP. These are not our only choices. There are other, offerings of, say, a conservative limited government viewpoint that is a much healthier politics that we could aspire to.
[01:28:42] Unknown:
I I have to agree with you, and I just wanna go back to something you said. I, I've been involved well, I've been interested in politics very young myself. I'm I'm 55. I'll be 55 this year.
[01:28:54] Unknown:
You have the advantage of without hair. I can't tell if you're in your thirties or eighties. Well, I did that on purpose. Yeah. I wasn't
[01:29:00] Unknown:
losing it. I just decided one day. I see. You know what? I don't feel like coloring the hair anymore. So let me just There you go. Get rid of it. But, but, I'm I'll be 55 this year. So the the the first presidential election that I was eligible to vote in was Ronald Reagan's second term. Oh, wow. So, and I proudly did that. I've been a Republican, since, I mean, even before I was able to vote, I was still I was already leaning that way. Since then, I've watched the Republican party drift so far from what I believe the Republican platform should have been that I I I I don't really tell people I'm a Republican anymore. I'm a conservatarian.
So I am I I have elements of conservatism, and I also have some libertarian leanings. And I think, I'm I'm comfortable with that balance. You know, I did support, president Trump from his first attempt to run, up until up until recently. And, I I voted from three times. Who else? You know, I'm not gonna vote for Hillary Clint Hillary Clinton, you know, and I'm certainly not gonna vote for, Kamala Harris, not because of not because of any other reason other than the fact that I don't agree with their politics. I don't agree with their policies, and I think they're incredibly corrupt.
I like some of the things that the president's doing, like I we talked to the previous guest. If I had to give him a school grade, I'd give him an a minus. You know? And and the strength of that is the border. Because I live in a border town. I live in Eagle Pass, and, you know, I'm five minutes away from Mexico, and, just a short distance away from Shelby Park where that stand down took place between the federal government and the state. So, you know, I I saw all this stuff firsthand, you know. I I've I've seen all that stuff going on here firsthand. So I I give him credit for that. I mean, he shut the border down. That's great. It's exactly what he needed to do, and and he was right that, you know, you didn't need more legislation. You just needed a different president, and when he said that at at this at his, joint session of congress. And I agree with that.
I think though there are other things that he's doing that I don't necessarily agree with, that, I don't feel I I feel like it it's it's it's it's just like a filler. It's like it's it's it's giving him something to do other than some of the things that he said he wanted to do, like trim the government down, get rid of certain agencies and departments. He yes. He did. He got rid of, Department of Education, returned that back to The States. Thank you for that. But let's get rid of the the Department of Energy. We don't need that. Let's get rid of, you know, go down the list of all these departments that were created from the seventies, you know, the sixties, seventies, eighties that we don't need. TSA,
[01:31:56] Unknown:
Homeland Security. We don't need Homeland Security. I'm getting the sense you're a big Ron Paul fan.
[01:32:01] Unknown:
Yes. Okay. I I because I'm starting to hear Ron Paul channeled here. I I I do. I I have a lot of respect for Ron Paul. I I agree with him on on a lot of things. I not necessarily on everything, but Sure. That's that's fine. You don't have to walk you know, we're not Democrats. We don't walk lockstep with the what the party says, no matter what it is. We're thinkers. And that's, I think, the beauty of being a conservative is that you're a thinker. Why? Because we believe in individual liberties, individual responsibility.
Interesting, I got into a debate with somebody, and it's a little off the subject, but I got into a debate with somebody recently about what self government really is. And, so if somebody came to you and said, well, tell me what self government is, I think you and I probably have the same answer. It's it's it's it's not so much of ruling our own communities and things like that. It's self government Mhmm. So that I don't need to have an overarching, overreaching, government telling me exactly how to live my life every step of the way. Self government, restraint, you know, understanding that, okay, morally speaking, I cannot go out and kill somebody. That's morally wrong, you know. Yeah. Do we need to have those laws in the books? Yeah. Of course we do. I mean I mean, common sense, but but self government. So I got into this debate with this with somebody and and, they tried to convince me otherwise, but, but that's the whole thing. We believe in self government. We believe in, individual liberty, responsibility.
It's huge responsibility. You know, take you know, being responsible for your actions. You know, being responsible for your for your own space, the things that are around you. We have drifted so far away from that as as the Republican party that, I I I don't really identify with the Republican party anymore. And as much as much as as Donald Trump has kind of, in a way, reinvigorated the Republican Party, it's not still not the party that that that stands on limited government. We we still have an overreaching, overpowering government. We have we have the house, we have the senate, we have the white house.
We should very easily be able to strip the government down to the necessities, and all the other stuff turned back over to the states where they belong.
[01:34:22] Unknown:
I there's a lot I could say there, but that based on that very last thing you said, I I would argue it cannot be done easily, but it can be done. Yes. It it it must be done thoughtfully and carefully and and with great, not only political will, but just foresight and and sort of and it requires bargaining and understanding what we're doing. And and I think that's part of my concern is where I see it's more performative than it is an actual rigorous effort to understand what would it take to unwind the monstrosity we have. I now I think if it were easy, it would have been done. I think the will is there, certainly with Trump. I I don't think it's a matter of, well, I just really like, you know, the the, National Endowment for the Arts, and so I'm not gonna touch them or something to that effect. I think it's more it's hard. It's it's a hard thing. This is what we just you know, Ronald Reagan succeeded in cutting taxes. He did not succeed in reducing the size of government. That's right. No Republican has succeeded in reducing this. Nobody's really tried other than Reagan, but nobody else has actually succeeded in reducing the size of government. There have been proposals, but they're not easy. And and I think what's sorely missing is clear headed leadership that that expresses here's the direction I wanna go Mhmm.
Instead of a sort of more performative it's more the sizzle than the steak. Right? We we can we can shut down certain things and get the headlines we want, but where are the trillions of savings we were supposed to have expected? And and I would just say I fundamentally have a hard time listening to anyone talk about they're seriously thinking about reducing the size of government if we're not gonna talk about entitlements because you could shut down every department and ban more than half of the military, we would still be running deficits.
Until you have figured out Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, you will not. You absolutely will not resolve, the death bomb that we're going to have to deal with at some point. And I don't mean that we have to get rid of it. I don't mean, you know, there there's any number of reforms, but I think that that alone shows me both the Democratic and Republican administrations and parties are simply not serious. I agree. Democrats, you know, in in in earlier, just just so the audience is clear, I am no fan of Trump. I have not voted for the guy. As as you mentioned, you had three times. I have not voted for him three times. That doesn't make me a Democrat. I'm not happy with the Democratic Party, and and I certainly don't think that they offer a better solution or a better vision.
I I am aware of the fact that they want to blow the problem up even faster. And so we're kinda stuck between it it's sad, but I I think what it what we have are two big government parties that have different, say, maybe in culture war values, and and they have some distinctions. But if we're just looking at the bottom line of are we gonna go bankrupt as a country, I don't see that either of them are serious about addressing that issue.
[01:37:19] Unknown:
I agree. And I and, honestly, I don't even think the Democratic party knows what their platform is anymore.
[01:37:24] Unknown:
Yeah. It's Yeah.
[01:37:26] Unknown:
They're they're so far off to the left at this point that I I I how anybody stays anybody with a rational mind, I don't I don't know how they stay in the Democratic party. I'm not saying to to, you know, come over to the Republican party, you know, but I don't know how you stay as as a Democrat. You know, go independent if you have to. I mean, whatever it is. Be independent. There is a rise of independence. It is. More so than we've ever seen before. Yeah. Yep. That that's a lot of the disaffected Democrats that are that are I don't wanna say abandoning their party because I think their party abandoned them. You know, the the the Democratic party of JFK is long gone. Yeah. You know, the the day of the Blue Dog Democrat is long gone. You know, that just doesn't exist anymore. Now you have AOC. You have, the other mental moron from Texas over here. What's her name?
Jasmine Crockett. Oh. You know? So, yeah, that that's what the party has become, and it's it's gone it's jerked so far left that the so so I I could understand. I could see them going to the independence, which is great. Personally speaking, I I don't think there should be any type of and this is just me off my head. You know, I don't think there should be any type of party, designation. I think you should just vote the ticket that represents your values the most, or represents your positions on things the most. You know, it shouldn't make a difference what party it is.
[01:38:52] Unknown:
I'm, I'm skeptical that such a world could exist outside of that very brief period where Washington and Adams were president. Yeah. I think the parties have become I don't necessarily wanna say necessary evils, because at times parties, I think, can serve a very vital function in in a democratic institution. Mhmm.
[01:39:13] Unknown:
But I also, you know, don't begrudge anyone who looks at our as I do, looks at our parties and say, what what nonsense? What what an utter waste of space? You know? Why don't we be better than party shouldn't exist. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it it I don't think it's necessary for someone to declare I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm an independent. Oh, I see. I think, you know, just just vote. Just vote for who represents your values, your morals, your positions, on whatever the issues are. That's that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Have parties because you need you need you do need to have some delineation as to who is who and what is what. You know? Right. And what the positions are and the the platforms are, of course. But individually speaking, I don't think it should be necessary to register as a Republican or register as a Democrat or register as this and register as that. You should just register to vote. That's it.
[01:40:04] Unknown:
I, you know, I'm I am uncharacteristically going to need to think about that before I'd offer much a reply, so we'll just leave it at that. I may agree with you. I don't know. I'd have to think it through. Alright. So your podcast,
[01:40:17] Unknown:
Saving Elephants, which by the way folks, you gotta check it out. It's a it's a really, really well done show. Your podcast dives into thinkers who are sh who shaped conservative thought, like, like, Evan Burke and Buckley and Sowell, you mentioned earlier. How did their ideas inform your approach to addressing the loss of civil society and community?
[01:40:38] Unknown:
Yeah. If you read well, especially Edmund Burke or, Russell Kirk, if if you read anything those guys wrote, you're going to notice that such worlds apart from the last thing Donald Trump posted on Truth Social or, Gavin Newsom posted to Twitter, it it's it it makes you a better person just reading their words. The the caliber of their arguments, the convictions they expressed, the beauty of, how they saw a political system, how it was to work and not work, what actually allows for liberty to endure and its relationship between an individual searching for happiness and in the founder's sense of the word, not hedonism, but meaning and purpose and and virtue in one's own life, and what a rare gift liberty is.
That I I think it's it's not that you can't engage in fights and politics. It's that that is so minimal and beside the point to what is truly important within a broader conservative framework that it almost gets assumed or lost in the larger more beautiful argument, if you will Conservatism ought to be something that people willingly want to join because they see a way in which it resonates with them as a this is what I would this is the life I want to build, not because they saw somebody screaming at somebody else on the college campus and denouncing them and, you know, evoked enough liberal tears to, you know, get them to run off the stage. I'm not saying that can't be enjoyable. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of lunkheads out there with some really dumb opinions, and it can be fun to watch that. But if that you know, as I say sometimes, if what you think conservatism is is you brandishing a firearm in your Facebook profile, get out there and learn a bit more because it's so much more beautiful than that. And, you know, do yourself a favor. It dive in deeper. So how would you I may have strayed from your question. I'm sorry. You asked about That's fine. That's fine. Good. Look. Rabbit you know, bunny trails. We talked about it earlier.
[01:42:41] Unknown:
So how would you define conservatism then?
[01:42:44] Unknown:
Well, I've spent many a podcast trying to do that, so I'm gonna give you the succinctest answer I can. I think, Roger Scruton, the conservative philosopher probably gave the response that I think is best if we're just looking for a short definition, which is that it begins with a sentiment that the good things in this life are easily destroyed but not easily created. Mhmm. And so we come into this life. We look around. We see the things we're grateful for, and we say, what do I need to do to preserve these good things? Now it goes on from that. You know, Yuval Levin, Jonah Goldberg talks about conservatism is gratitude. It's rooted in first what do we have. Russell Kirk talks about it being a sentiment that it's more a a suspicion that our traditions are, worth upholding even if we don't understand them. Abraham Lincoln said it's trusting the devil you know to the devil you don't know.
All of this, I think, points to and this is all rudimentary. Right? We could put this on a bumper sticker, each each one of these ideas. But I think what that builds up to is sort of a notion that no one human and no one generation has all the answers. Let's learn from each other. Let's respect our elders. We're not beholden to them. They made mistakes, but so do we. But let's not dilute ourselves into thinking we're somehow better than they are. Let's also be mindful of the generation coming up after us as someone we owe deference and duty and responsibility to. Mhmm. And so we ought to build a world that is sustainable and is is prosperous and is something we would be proud to hand down to them. That requires conservation, requires defending things.
It requires understanding who we are, where we came from, why those things are important. And and I think that's sort of the I had a recent guest on, Steve Heywood, who had a very good way of putting it. The conservatism is the search for the unchanging in an ever changing universe. Right? All around us is change. What is anchored? Human nature doesn't change much. God's gifts don't change much. It really is. And there's so much off of that. And and I think that's where, you know, obviously, we can have big conversations about what the tax rate is or which politician you should you support. But I think you need those grounding kind of, you know, this is the permanent thing. These are the things that are most precious to us we wanna hold on to.
[01:44:56] Unknown:
I like that answer. That's a that's a really good answer. Yeah. Unless we got a comment here from the chat. Says, oh, I like this guy. You found a fan. Well, thank you. I don't know if I could can I put that up there? I don't think so. It's on the Rumble chat, so I don't think I can put it up on here. It'll let you in StreamYard, but I'm not sure about Rumble. Yeah. I know. I have to be on the Rumble stream for that. But I got a fan there, buddy. Saving elephants podcast. Check them out. Check them out. Check them out. Happy to have you. Now you now you've talked about where conserv contemporary conservatism, or con or the contemporary conservative movement has gone off the rails.
What's what what missteps do you see, and how do you suggest conservatives course correct?
[01:45:39] Unknown:
I think well, as Thomas Sowell said once about, he said that I understood this sounds like I'm getting way on left field, but I'll I'll bring it I'll bring it home here in a second. Thomas Sowell says we often ask the question, what causes poverty? That's the wrong question. We know what causes poverty. We're all born into poverty. We don't have any skills that, you know, when we're born, we don't have anything other than what's given to us. So real question is what causes wealth? And I think in a similar vein, I would say what causes liberty? What causes ordered society? That's the rare exception. We humans are naturally tribalistic or we join some sort of a monarch or some sort of a we identify ourselves as here we are and here's the other group, the in group, the out group, and we're fighting with each other. That's normal. That's been 10,000 of human history in all civilizations.
We're the aberration. We're the weird ones. And and and so I think you have to start there by saying, okay. Well, what's so what causes us to be so weird? And it is, in fact, this beautiful system we have of order of liberty, the founders bequeathed to us, that has allowed us to flourish in spite of our fallenness as humans, that has helped us identify, okay. Well, we can aspire to our higher angels while still structuring such a way that no true person is really in charge. Not the president. I know he's our leader. I get that, but he doesn't have true authority over my rights.
Now those are given to me by God. Now I can abuse those privileges and I can behave in ways the law says, nope. You're you you have lost, say, the right to liberty your life. But barring that, it is the state's duty to, you know, to essentially hold to those. And so when you ask about course correction, I think it's needful. We say we as a species, just as human beings, are naturally afraid in this world and want to seek out, whether we realize it or not, some sort of an authoritarian approach to set the world right. Okay. Red states have a way of viewing that. Blue states have a way of viewing that.
Either we're gonna end up in a civil war, kill 100,000,000 people, or we're gonna have have to figure out maybe there's a way to sort of do this together. And I think the founders had a brilliant idea of of the federal government. I don't mean the national government, but the federated systems of the sovereignty of states and the individual. And I think returning more and more to that sort of limited framework is the key, to resolving not only our civil discourse, but not only the debt, but just a whole host of political issues.
[01:48:08] Unknown:
Yeah. I absolutely agree with you. The the the smaller the government, the better. The more local government, the better. And and the reason for that is it should be obvious because the local government is more more accountable to the individual than the federal government is, than that central government, that general government located in Washington DC. So I I I 100% agree with you. Just sidebar to that, you mentioned our rights coming from our creator. Earlier, when I was talking with our previous guest, I mentioned this, this this episode that took place during the RFK junior, grilling before senate or the senate, where the senator from Virginia, Tim Kaine, said that he found it, disturbing that somebody would believe that the that that the government isn't the one who, who gives rights and, and and and governs and that way, I forgot the exact quote. But, the scary thing is is that that statement is exactly the direction that the left has gone. They are they have become the party where, it's they're not liberals in the classical sense of sense of liberalism anymore.
They're they're something completely different, and I I and I think they need to we need to drop the liberal label on them because that that's not what it is.
[01:49:34] Unknown:
Go ahead. As you pointed out, it the shocking irony of Tim Kaine saying that senator from, as you correctly identified, Virginia. Right? Of all the senators, Democrat or Republican, you know, and and someone has said the I I can understand if a person doesn't agree with that idea, or what I would hope is a person could be a small l liberal by saying, look. I don't believe in God, but I do believe we have inalienable rights. I just don't think that's where they come from. I also don't think they come from the state. Mhmm. What floors me about what senator Cain said isn't so much that he found that idea disturbing, but that apparently this was news to him. Like, dude, you're a senator in literally the very state where I would assume every schoolboy and girl is taught, whether or not they say it's true, that that was Jefferson's great idea. That was what makes your state so unique. That's where this comes from. Richard Henry actually, Richard Henry Lee.
[01:50:26] Unknown:
Oh, it is? Yes. It's Richard Henry Lee is the one who actually penned the phrase that Thomas Jefferson took and incorporated into declaration.
[01:50:34] Unknown:
I did not know that. Thank you for for educating me, but it it's just and and I think that is a I'm not saying that there isn't room, broadly speaking, the American tent for all those who would say, deny that truth. I certainly am not saying because I I I am a Christian, and and I desire that all men would would come to know Christ. I also recognize as a political project, it's not or at least in my view, other Christians may disagree, that that the purpose of Christianity is not that we can have a really cool government in The United States Of America. And so, therefore, let's convert everybody to Christianity so that we can all, you know, live in the sort of Norman Rockwell picture. I I I think things work better with a broader Christians and worldview in charge, but I also necessarily think we have to find a way to appeal to our secular or I'll say not even secular, non Christians, say religious but non Christian fellow citizens so that they too can agree with a proposition our rights do not come from government, but they are in some sacred sense beyond government. They're pre and and maybe the easiest way to express that is that they're presocial.
That's what Locke expressed that these rights, the right to life existed before the state ever existed. The right to liberty existed before the state ever existed, which is why it's so pernicious and dangerous when your Bernie Sanders go out and talk about health care is right. These are fundamentally different things. Now to be fair, we could have a legitimate debate. Should health care be a right in the sense that we wanna make this available for all citizens. Right? Social Security in theory is my right because as an American citizen, I'm supposedly paying into a system that's supposedly gonna get back to me. So I have I have some legal right to it. That's a very different thing than saying it's a pre political right. That just by virtue of me being a human being, a rational thinking human, I have rights that the state is to respect just because I'm human. And and that is a radically different thing from sort of the Tim Kaine's ideas of apparently, the government just sort of doles these things out out of its own benevolence.
[01:52:33] Unknown:
Yeah. I agree with you. And, you know, that and I find it very disturbing because it's not only him. It's it's this is what they're being taught now in school. So we have a whole generation of of of young folks that are coming up thinking that that government is this all knowing arbiter of of of rights and freedoms, when that's not the case. You know, there was a there was a very dystopian movie that came out years ago. It was it was George Lucas' first major movie. And it was called THX eleven thirty eight or November or something like that. I've not heard of this. Interesting. You need to see this. I'm I'm then I'm being serious. It's, it's it's set in the in the in the future. Doesn't doesn't say exactly when it's set, but, government has become all in all. Everybody dresses the same.
Everybody looks the same. There's no individuality. There is no, there's no religion but government. As a matter of fact, there were scenes in the movie where where, when someone feels that they need to, to to to to have, like a devotional time or something like that, there's a booth that they go into, and then there's this holographic image of a face that's representing the government is telling them, these these these phrases of affirmation, but at the end of it all, it's that government. It's government. It's government. It's government. And that is that that is the direction that the that the the left wants to take us.
And I think, eventually, you you have organizations like the World Economic Forum, you have, the, WHO and I'm sorry. I'm Mhmm. Getting tired.
[01:54:23] Unknown:
You know? Yeah. Coffee.
[01:54:25] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I I think that was the last of it. So Oh, no. Yeah. But, but you have all these these, these non governmental organizations that want to usher in that type of of a world view, And they're doing it now in the schools. They're they're training these these these children, that government is the end all be all. Government is your god. Government and that's where it's gonna come to. Government's gonna be you're gonna be all worshiping at the altar of government. Mhmm. And that's terrifying. It is absolutely terrifying. And it just seems to be moving in an extremely rapid pace. And I know we're we're off in the weeds again.
[01:55:02] Unknown:
Oh, that that's fine. Those sometimes those are the best conversations. I I if you don't mind, a brief response to that that what you're describing is one of the chief reasons I I would call myself a conservative and not just a, say, libertarian, even though I think libertarians have a lot of good ideas. Oh, I do too. I think the greatest bulwark against a collectivist state is not a really good economic argument. I think the greatest bulwark is thick cultural institutions that stand between an individual and the collectivist. And I think what you often see is you end up with individuals that fall into collectivism because all they have is their individual self.
If all it is is me versus the world, it's really tempting to sort of join with a, say, socialist democratic socialist movement that that offers a sort of salvation through collectivization. Mhmm. It's harder for that to take hold. And this is, thank God, one of the reasons The United States has, you know, has has been a really infertile ground for, say, Marxist ideology. You know, exist on campuses, but it's the average American doesn't walk around like the average Bulgarian or Russian or Ukrainian had. You're they they were more right for the picking of, say, a Marxist Leninist view. I gotcha. Yeah. Is is that what you have are extraordinarily thick institutions of family and church and other cultural means where an individual sees themselves as plugged into this larger world. It's not just me versus the world. It's yeah, but I'm a Christian and I'm a son. I'm a father. I'm I'm this. And even as, you know, even even as something as quaint as Robert Putnam put it in bowling alone, I'm a member of a bowling league. There's got to be something in your life that gives you value and purpose, because if all it is the individual, that's a very lonely life. And I think those people are naturally going to be right for the picking of a leftist agenda.
[01:56:46] Unknown:
I I can't say anything against that. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. I I think you're spot on. So I'm I'm looking at the clock here, my friend. We're we're over the 09:00 hour. Do you wanna hang out for a couple more minutes and try to wrap this up, or do you wanna come back on again another time?
[01:57:01] Unknown:
I I will follow your lead, whatever you think is best.
[01:57:04] Unknown:
Alright. Well, I still do I do want you to come back on more frequently, though. I'd love I'd love to do shows with you, like, as a as cohost, you know, just that type of thing and and work something out with that. I think it'd be a lot of fun to do that once in a while. So, I I'm I'm really enjoying the conversation. This this is really good. So what kind of transformation or insights can listeners expect from your podcast or your writings?
[01:57:26] Unknown:
Oh, that's a great question. I I would hope the biggest thing they would find is what, what so encouraged me back in the day is that when I started to really say, well, what is conservatism? And went back and read it the Edmund Burke's Russell Kirks, you know, these heroes of mine. I kinda got angry that nobody had ever shared this with me before. Like, I have been a life I've called myself as conservative. My as far back as my political memory can go, I never even heard of these guys. And I would hope that and and this isn't for everybody. Don't don't get me wrong. It's not for everybody. But for that person that's out there that wants to go deep saying, man, there's gotta be more to politics than just bumper stickers. Mhmm. And and and and sort of yeah. It can be fun. It can be enjoyable. But what what is the roots of this? Where these ideas actually come from? Man, I encourage you to check out saving elephants. That's what we do all the time. I constantly try to introduce you to new sources of how you can go really, really deep. And and I think with that, it imbues our politics is very divisive, and it's very exhausting.
And I think it is an alternative where you can be a member, a proud member, a patriot of The United States, and do so in a way that's hopefully healthier and hopeful.
[01:58:40] Unknown:
Excellent. I love that answer. That's a great answer. Thank you. I appreciate that. So, let me ask you this. We're coming to the final thoughts part of our of our list here. Who's someone that you respect right now, And what are they doing that's inspiring you?
[01:59:01] Unknown:
There's a lot of people I respect right now. Gosh. If I just had this is so tough because I'd like to list off, you know, 20 different people. And and and and and I will say this in passing, like, one of the great pleasures I've had as a podcast host, it really does restore your faith in the country when you see that people no one has ever heard of. They're not famous. They haven't written a book. They haven't done anything extraordinary, but they're deep thinkers and they're passionate and they're, you know and you can you're like, those people are out there. It they're they really are. But if I had to pick just one name, and this isn't an individual who's written many books, it'd probably be Yuval Levin, not to be confused with Mark Levin. Maybe they're related. I don't know.
He's a little bit older than I am. He's he's, you know, as I say, he's got a head that looks like it worn out a couple of bodies. But he is just beyond brilliant. He's personable. He's a very humble individual. He writes compellingly about current issues, but he has a profound sense of conservative traditions. And he does have what I would say well, this is pretty rare, I think, for an individual. He has what I would call a very deep respect and appreciation for the left while still able to persuasively explain why they're wrong. It it just ekes out in everything he does that he he does not hate people, that he genuinely believes what he believes, and he wants them to come to his side.
I I if in Saving Elephants, if all I could ever accomplish just point to my betters as far as people in life today, I think you have all of them as you you'd be hard to outdo you have all of them.
[02:00:41] Unknown:
I have to check him, actually. I'm not I'm not familiar with him. I'm looking for my pen that I could write with, but, I have it, actually. Okay. So, I I I like that too. I mean, I I I don't know who that who he is. I've never read anything of his, but I definitely would like to try that. So I'm gonna do that for sure. John, I I loved this conversation tonight. I think this was this was better than I thought it was gonna be. Oh, awesome. Or I should say better than I expected. You know, I think that you and I think alike on a lot of ways, and, I would I would very, very much like to continue a conversation with you another time. And, I I will invite you to do this though. I I on Sundays, I teach bible studies on this show.
And, I just finished I just started a series right now on Proverbs. I'm I'm two episodes into it. So you have to go back a few. But I did a series on America's Christian heritage. Mhmm. And, I started all the way back in the revolutionary war, and, I think it's something you'd find very, very interesting, to check out because at in in preparation for the study, what I did is I didn't go to, modern day history books. I went back to, historians closer to the actual events. Mhmm. And I got the unbiased, non political renderings of these historical events, and I was able to bring that forward.
And, I I think I think you enjoy it just for the sake of, you know, the the history aspect of it. It was a tremendous amount of fun for me to do. I gained a a much greater appreciation for our founding generation through that as well. I mean, I I I've I've been feeling that way about the founding generation for a very, very long time. You know, I had kind of a a a reawakening, I wanna say, back in probably 02/2002, 02/2003, somewhere around there, and, where I just had this just this overwhelming love for American history. And, I wish it would have been earlier than that. I wish, like, when I was in high school and and college. Although, I will say this, I did have I did have a history professor in college that that really, I I think, was the catalyst for me reigniting my my love and appreciation for our founding generation and that that aspect of American history, because he he was a nut job, and, he he was very entertaining. Because that's a problem with history t the history is not boring in and of itself. It's boring of the history teachers.
Yeah. That that's where it is. So this guy, he would come into class, and you're talking about one of those big auditorium classrooms, you know, not not small little things, but you're talking a few 100 students in this thing. And, he he would come in, and he was an older guy. I'm gonna say he's probably in his probably in his seventies at that point. He came in, he had no notes, no books, had nothing with him, and he would come in, he'd walk up onto the stage, and he would say, okay, where were where was I? Oh, yes. The Battle of Trafalgar.
And he would prance around the stage acting out all of these moments of history. Mhmm. Like, if it was like, he would get on the floor. He would crank the catapults, you know, and and he would wave the sword, and he would, you know, all of nothing in his hands, nothing like that. But he acted out everything. And I sat there, I was like, either this guy is nuts or or I'm or I I I love history. And he made it yeah. Yeah. Both too. Yeah. But but that reinvigorated my love for American history, you know, watching him replay these things. And I kept that in mind when I was trying to do this study. Not not a 100% successfully, but, you know, I I I I wanted to make it interesting for folks to understand where we got our country from and how we how our country was put together.
And just the amazing the the the amazing spirituality of these men that that put together this country. Because you hear so much about, oh, you know, a bunch of atheists and agnostics and and deists and all that stuff. No. No. No. These people these people were devout people. These people studied the scriptures. And, through the lesson, I I I show how how how many times they went to the bible to put together our constitution, to put together our declaration of independence, to put together the founding documents. Those things that that that that solidified what they were trying to do was all founded on in on the scriptures. So this is a Christian nation or a or a nation founded on Judeo Christian value and morals, you know, despite what Barack Obama said, you know, and despite what what a lot on the left think, you know, to that's what and that that goes right back to why I say this is the greatest generation. So I invite you to check it out if you're interested. I think I think you'd find it interesting. Okay. Yeah. I'll check it out. Alright. And I'd love your thoughts on it, your your your critiques.
Alright. So where can we go to find out more about you, your work, and everything you're doing?
[02:05:59] Unknown:
Yeah. I I have the misfortune of, with a name like Saving Elephants, you're mostly gonna find people trying to save elephants if you just Google that. Check me out at Saving Elephants blog. Although if you're doing a pod if you're searching in your podcast feed, Saving Elephants, you can find me just fine or Save an Elephant's Josh or words of that effect that might be easy to find.
[02:06:18] Unknown:
Alright. And we'll make sure I have all the links. And when I figure out the audio how to fix the audio problem that I I did tonight, I'll get it in there as well. But, I'll have all your links and everything ready to go. And, so Josh, thank you so much for being here tonight. I really did appreciate this. I needed this kind of conversation. And, I mean, it's a this was a this was a real treat for me. So thank you so much for being here tonight. It was my pleasure. Alright. Josh Lewis, ladies and gentlemen, Josh Lewis. Thanks again. Alright, folks. Just a couple of quick mentions before we, do I have to move you or yeah. Okay. I'll see you in a bit.
Still learning my way around StreamYard, folks. I I apologize. Alright, folks. Don't forget to sign up for our programming announcements email list. Just head over to the website, joerus.com. Joerus.com. Sign up right there on the homepage, and, you'll get you'll get emails about the show, about what's coming up on the show, guests, any changes the schedule, anything like that. We don't sell your information. We don't share your information. It all stays here locally with us. We're not gonna spam you. We're not gonna send you a bunch of stuff. We're not gonna try to sell you stuff either. And, you know, probably the best part of the whole thing is it's free, which means it doesn't cost you anything. So sign up for the email list. We really, really appreciate that. Also, don't forget to check us out on all of our socials on Twitter or x or whatever you wanna call it. This is at Joe Ruz, Truth Social. Again, if you wanna find out what's going on with this administration, they post there before anywhere else.
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Alrighty. I think that should just about do it. Charlie is barking here in the background. It means he's hungry. He wants to eat. So folks, don't forget, website, joeroos.com. Make Texas independent again. Go podcasting. Keep a test keep a steady stride, and more importantly, keep talking. Good night, folks. Have a great night.
Transmitting live from the Asylum Studios deep in the bowels of Southwest Texas, it's the Joe Ruge Show, the show where we talk about anything and everything where nothing is sacred, nothing is watered down, and nothing is PC.
[00:03:45] Unknown:
Alright. Hey, folks. It's Cho Ruz. It is nineteen eleven hours on the 09/08/2025, and we are coming to you live from the asylum studios from the pimple on the backside of Texas, the beautiful city of Eagle Pass. And we're bringing you the best quality talk radio we could muster without all the bluster. Folks, welcome to the Joe Russo. Alright. Well, like I always say, it wouldn't be a show that I do if it didn't have some kind of technical screw up to get started. Welcome to the world of using StreamYard. We, tried this baby out tonight and, ran into a problem as soon as we hit the go live button, which was should have expected that.
You know? Did the run through on the weekend with a buddy of mine, and not a problem. Everything worked great. No sweat. No issue. Today, eleven minute late start. But at least we're here, and, we're excited to be here. So, we do have a lot of ground to cover tonight. We have some great guests lined up. In the, first hour, we have Jack McMahon, an author who is going to be sharing some information about his, his book that he's he's put out. And, we're excited to talk to him. I he's he's already waiting for us, so we gotta kinda fly through this here to get him in. And then, second hour, we have, we have a really interesting conversation coming up in the second hour. We'll be talking to, Josh Lewis, who is a, the host of the, Saving Elephants podcast. And, no, we're not talking about environmental conservatism. We're talking about saving conservatism, republicanism. So we're gonna it's a very interesting conversation we're looking forward to having. So, with all of that said, let's get into some of the housekeeping before we get started. So first of all, head over to our website, joeroos.com.
I gotta remember where everything is here. Joeroos.com. And, when you get over to there, just make sure you look for the, look for that little button on the top corner there that says contact. Open up the contact form. Send us over any questions, comments, cares, or concerns that you might have, any issues that you might have, any complaints that you might have. No. Don't send the complaints. I don't wanna hear them. I know what the problems are. I don't need you to remind me of them. Alright? So no. I'm kidding. You can send whatever you want. But, but hit that contact button. And if you don't wanna use the web form, totally cool with me. You can always email us at [email protected].
That's [email protected]. Also, while you're on the homepage, check out the support button if, click that thing. And if you're able, if you have the means to do it, and you can help us out with the donation. Remember, this is a value for value show, and all that simply means is that if you've received anything of value from the content that we're putting out, we're asking that you return that value in the form of a donation. It could be your time, your talent, your treasure. It could be all three. It could be one of the three, two of the three, whatever it is, as long as you have the means to do it. And we'll talk more about all the various options available to you at the end of the show. Alright.
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Well, folks, tonight's guest challenges the decay of American values through raw, passionate writing. Jack McMahon is a USMC. That's the Marine Corps for you folks who don't know. He's a USMC veteran from a small town in Ohio. He spent years in CNC machining and warehousing. Later, he moved to to, project management and process improvement, a whistleblower in the marines, which I'm very curious about. He's fought abuses of power his whole life. His book, Atrophy and Asymptotes, blends essays, which we practiced that before the show started. Blends essays to the to, to the the public and letters to his daughter, It tackles freedoms, economics, censorship, violence, foreign policy, bravery, and safety. Jack argues for both for using both emotion and logic, rage to spot problems, reason to solve them.
His style is unfiltered. He's unapologetic, born from worries about eroding freedoms on his bond with his daughter. And he's incredibly sarcastic, which I love. So we're good to go. Jack, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. You know, again, I'm sorry about, the little glitch we had at the start there. That's, you know, that's that's the that's the joys of doing a live show, number one. And number two, that's the joys of doing a live show when you're using software that you've never really used before, and you're trying to get comfortable with it, but you realize that you've been playing with it for a week, and you need to get started using it because you're paying for the damn thing. So let's get to it, and what do you think happens?
Problems, problems galore. But I think we got it figured out fairly quickly. So, again, welcome to the show, Jack. So I always have I have a couple of questions that I always ask every guest at the outset of the show. So, what's something that most people don't know about you but should?
[00:10:13] Unknown:
Well, my close friends will know this, but, I'm a Warhammer nerd, painted miniatures.
[00:10:20] Unknown:
Really? Yeah. You're gonna have to explain that one just a little bit for me. So what is a Warhammer nerd?
[00:10:26] Unknown:
It's a a miniatures game. There's, like, a fantasy version and then, like, a sci fi version, and it's just, you know, little, little army men fighting each other. Okay. Alright. That's painting them in plas plastic toys and a three d printer to make my own.
[00:10:44] Unknown:
Nice. I kinda, I kinda had a feeling that's where it was, but it wasn't a 100 sure. So thank you for educating me on that one. Alright. And, the next question I have for you, the icebreakers. So I asked this to everybody, and everybody usually gives me some kind of a lame answer, but let's see what you got. What's your, go to beverage to help you unwind at the end of the day?
[00:11:07] Unknown:
My go to for the end of the day is just, Miller Lite. I'm I'm a simple guy. When I was still heavy drinking, I I drank Fireball and White Claws. Called it Fire Claws.
[00:11:21] Unknown:
Oh, Fireball and White. No. Now I've had both, and and neither one of them are really great. So Yeah. That's awesome. And I'm glad you I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you brought up some alcoholic beverage because not that I'm encouraging people to drink or anything like that because I'm trying to I'm trying to ease my way out of this lifestyle myself. But, you know, I, most people that I ask, they always come back with, oh, I drink water. I drink water. Water. That's good. I am. I'm glad you're hydrated. That's one of the I've got Baja Blast tonight. Mountain Dew. Alright. You're the second you're the second guest to bring up a Mountain Dew on the show. That's awesome.
I haven't had a Mountain Dew in I don't know how long, and I'm I'm afraid that if I did now that I I'd probably go into, like, a diabetic coma from it because it's so damn sweet. But, but that's good stuff, man. I miss it. I do. I'll be honest with you. I miss it. My my go to is usually well, before I started cutting back, my go to would be, some bourbon at the end of the day. Really, I I love bourbons. I love the flavors of bourbons. I love the different varieties. And, you know, I I love to sample them. So it's it's tough. It's it's tough to stay away from them, but I'm I'm doing the best that I can on this one. So we're getting there. I was very tempted actually to slip some bourbon in the coffee cup. This way people think I'm drinking coffee, but it's actually bourbon, but no, it's really coffee. It's it's okay. And it's cold already. I can't believe that. But, but that's great. That is fantastic. So, Jack, let's get right into it because I unfortunately, we lost a lot of time.
So, you're a you're a Marine Corps vet, and thank you for your service, by the way. Appreciate what you've done for this country. Thank you very much for it in preserving the freedoms that we have. As a as a as a veteran, as a whistleblower, you've you've, you've gone up against abuses of power very often. How did those experiences, including your time in the marines, shape your decision to write Atrophy and Asymptotes?
[00:13:22] Unknown:
I don't think necessarily that in particular influenced it as much as more recent things, but it was early on in my life and it kind of helped set an attitude of, looking for some kind of expensive moral purpose in life. I I kind of, going in, half of me was like, I just wanna do something. I got school locked down, and I just wanna do something that'll make me stronger because that's what I'm bad at. And then the other half was, like, kind of seeing people that I thought were bad growing up, in school or home or whatever, institutions I ran into.
And I kind of thought, you know, the marine corps would be the one that, I would find good people in. And it's just like, oh, well, the people here, they're gonna definitely be good. And I think that was kind of, like, a final straw when I realized that people are just people no matter what organization they join. It doesn't necessarily automatically make somebody good or automatically make somebody bad based on, you know, joining joining or one organization or another, a church, a a military. There can be evil anywhere, and there can be good anywhere. That's true. And then, like, I kinda kept that attitude throughout my life, and made me realize I I it's kind of like that same attitude applies to modern politics and not automatically siding with, one particular party all the time because that party is not you know, somebody being on the left or somebody being on the right doesn't automatically make them good or bad in that same manner.
So I think, it may have influenced kind of my my thoughts a lot. Within the book, my chapter on, heroes and villains is probably influenced by that a lot.
[00:15:39] Unknown:
Okay. So your book stems from concerns about, your relationship with your daughter and, the erosions of freedom. Correct? Yeah. So what was the pivotal realization that led you to structure it as letters to her and essays to the public? Because it's a it's a great idea, and I thought that was really interesting. You know? And the way you laid that out, it, it it makes it it also makes it, for me anyway, it makes it an easy to follow read through. Like I told you earlier, before we started the show, I I had an opportunity to read the majority of the book. Now I can't say all of it. But, and I and I thought it was great. I I thought it was very easy to follow along and very relatable. And I think the way you did it that way in letters to her and and essays really shows your heart. And I I think that was great. So, what what what made you do it that way?
[00:16:31] Unknown:
Struggles in my own life, with, like, my family, That's not my immediate my immediate family as in, like, brothers, sisters, parents, struggles with them and, like, a broken relationship with them. And over the last four or five years, kind of led me to realize that I don't ever want that kind of struggle to happen between me and my daughter, but she's now nine years old. And, at 30 years old, I didn't think that the struggles I have now with my family would ever happen to me. So who knows what'll happen, you know, in the next nine years with my daughter. I've been known to mess things up, so relationship wise.
So, she could very well not like me at 18. I'm told that happens in,
[00:17:23] Unknown:
It does.
[00:17:25] Unknown:
In the in the years of adolescence. So I kind of wanted her to be able to hear my voice, even if she wasn't wanting to come directly to me. And if she has, you know, if something I did along the way messes up our relationship and she can't ever come to me for advice or doesn't want to and it's too uncomfortable, then she can still pick up the book and be like, okay. What does you think on this? What does you I can still give advice even though I'm not literally saying it. And then, obviously, you know, there's a if I happen to die thing. It's a I, I keep calling it my non financial life insurance policy.
[00:18:13] Unknown:
I got you. I got you. Yeah, they, there is a period of time. I have two children, two human children, two dog children. My dog could be out here. My, my, my two human children I have a son who is 26, and my daughter is 29. She'll be 30. Wow, my God, I can't believe that. Holy cow. And, yeah, you do go through those those moments. And doing what you did is great. It's a great way to to bridge that gap, you know, and help her to understand where you're coming from, help her know your mind a little bit, and why you were doing the things you did, and why you said the things you said, and why you acted the way you did, and disciplined the way you did, and and so on and so forth.
I think that's a great idea. I really like that. That's probably one of the first things that that really jumped out at me when I started reading the book is like, this is great. I wish I thought of this. This was a great idea. It was fantastic. Thank you. You describe your writing as a blend of, of rage and reason. Emotion to discover problems, logic to solve them. How does that particular philosophy play out in your discussions, of this authoritarian drift that we're that we're seeing in America today or coming in America today?
[00:19:32] Unknown:
It plays out in exactly that order. So the start of each chapter, which is covering, you know, a different topic of modern day politics, is essentially, you know, the the father's rant on, the things that are causing me struggles and, may be an underlying issue of any failures. Well, I'm not saying that they're and they are the cause of any failures I have as a father, but they're what's happening inside my mind that maybe, like, I'm distracted by them and therefore don't fulfill all my, father fatherhood duties as well as I could.
And that rage and kind of isolation that comes with it, just based on the fact that nobody wants to really hang out with a guy that's pissed off all the time. So the the rage and isolation created in my response to, like, the modern world and, the erosions of what I see as, like, core American values is how I start off. And then, you know, the letters, I kind of try to they're more of a rejection of that rage. I also go throughout after the rage within the, the original essay part, kind of go through my reasoning and logic and be like, okay.
Something pisses you off, but, you know, what's actually the right thing to do in response? And like you said, the rage and reason the rage is how you identify a problem. You don't necessarily have to react with that same rage. You just have to be like, okay. Well, this is something that makes you angry or, you know, makes society angry. Anything going wrong in the country, you discover it with that rage or, you know, happiness as well is the the flip side to that for discovering opportunities. And then, you know, you have to, use your reason to kinda work through it. And I think if you if you lay it out ahead of time and you're able to go through the reasons positions on the things that make you mad while you're not actually in an emotional state, then you kind of hardwire your brain to, like, you know, have a have that reasons map inside your mind to, like, automatically know. Okay. I know what to do in this situation. I thought about I thought through this with reason in the past. I know the principled position to take and the principled action to take in in response to this.
And, that that's kind of what I try to teach and preach to my daughter in the the letters afterwards. It's okay to, you know, remain true to your principles if as long as you, you know, initially set out and say, these are my values, these are my principles, and here's the reasoned response behind the things that do make me mad.
[00:22:38] Unknown:
Mhmm. Now why don't you walk us through, your views on the state of censorship today in America? And and how do you guide your readers to respond to the state of censorship, to respond to injustice, both using rage and reason?
[00:23:00] Unknown:
So, the the the state of censorship that I see today is kind of, coming from both sides. Obviously, in the lead up to, twenty twenty election is when I I was kind of thinking more along the lines of, it's only on the left. Huge censorship, across pretty much every social media of all conservatives on anything from COVID lockdowns, Conor Biden laptop, all the everything that was happening in that lead up to that election. And that was a huge amount of rage for me. I I think censorship is probably one of the worst things that an institution can do.
I think that if you aren't able to actually express your opinions and the people around you aren't either, then you're not actually able to judge what they actually think, and you you're kind of never allowed to know someone because they they may be censored, maybe they're not. Maybe the things that they're saying, are their real opinions, maybe they're not. So it it further isolates everyone in the community because nobody can actually be sure that the things that they're hearing are the the person's real opinion or if it's just a censored version of it. So it's, it's like forced isolation for anyone that's, you know, thought that thought that through.
And then I kind of saw it more since 2020, 2025 this year on the right as well. And a little bit before that too. One thing that comes to mind was, post that Riley Gaines had made about somebody threatening one of the presidents. And, she said she never sees anybody on the right, make those same kind of threats. But, I typed it in and typed out exactly what she said she never saw. And then, obviously, it gets flagged, and then it gets auto deleted by, I believe it was on Twitter and, or x. And then I, you know, had to go into my email, take the screenshot, and then show it to her to be like, okay. Like, you don't actually know what the people in your own party are or are not saying, against your their enemies because, it's it's curated. Your experience and your reality are are all curated.
And I know that's not the same thing as government censorship, but it's just a comment on censorship itself. It doesn't matter where it's coming from. I'm not saying that private businesses shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm just saying the effect is the same. When there is censorship, you have a warped version of reality, and you don't know, like, the she there's nothing wrong with what she said. She just didn't like, the point is if you have censorship, you don't know what the world is saying
[00:26:20] Unknown:
or trying to say because they're censored. Well, yeah. Because the the the powers that be are trying to direct the conversation to to to what they want it to be so that there is no dissension. There is nobody speaking out against the wrongs or the rights that that that particular governing authority is is trying to control and manipulate. So yeah. No. And censorship has really has no place in an open free society. This country was basically founded on the idea of being able to say what you needed to say, say what you had to say, regardless of whether it upset somebody. You know, it's like what Voltaire says, you know, I may not agree with what you said. I'm paraphrasing of course, but I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. You know.
Censorship at any level, whether it's private, corporate, governmental, it's it's a violation of a fundamental freedom that that we derive from our creator. You know? It's it's a right that we have. And I know senator Cain in in Virginia that disagrees with me on that one. He thinks that rights derive from government and is very upset by the fact that we think that otherwise. But, did you see that clip, by the way? You know what I'm talking about? I did not, but I've seen the argument on
[00:27:41] Unknown:
of Both Ways online recently a lot. Yeah. Well On the origin of rights. Yeah. It came up it came up during the,
[00:27:49] Unknown:
the recent hearing with RFK Jr. And, and, he said he said, Senator McCain said he finds it disturbing that somebody would think that government doesn't issue and control rights. So I find that very, very disturbing myself. That no. Well, let me backtrack that a little bit. I find it disturbing that somebody in government thinks that government has control over those things. That's what I find disturbing. But, so so based on your book, you look at and you explored, opposing duties between fatherhood and citizenship. What challenges do you think people face most in balancing these things, and why do you think it's so difficult today?
[00:28:34] Unknown:
I think that, there's there are a lot of times there are overlap, but I think the biggest struggle is when the two go against each other. And then sometimes it's not so easy as, oh, this is the fatherhood duty. This is the, you know, the civilian or the community duty. A lot of times, you you kind of don't know which one's which and what what you're supposed to do, and I think that's the hardest one, the hardest situations, at least for me anyways, and I would assume, for a lot of other people. Yeah. You know, the biggest kind of idea I look at is, like, the the fact that as a father, we have to be, financially stable. We have to be protecting our children. We have to, you know, do all the basics of, hey. You need to like, I'm gonna keep you alive, and then you also have to teach them how to get along in the world.
But at the same time, you shouldn't have to teach them those things because you should change the world. You should also just make the world better and make it how it should run. And that's, like, the civic duty on on changing the country around you to fit a moral principle view. So it's kind of like, what do you like, there's, like, an opportunity cost in everything, and it's do you devote your life to raising your child to survive in this world, or do you devote your life into making the world the way it should be and giving you know, that that's the inheritance they get is rather than, you know, x amount of dollars.
It's we made we made the world, a better place, to live in than it was prior when I grew up. And I think of the citizenship kind of more along like, more abstract and, the fatherhood duties as more pragmatic. And it's a fine line of, how far can I go into teaching the principles without sacrificing the pragmatic needs I need to to provide for a family?
[00:30:53] Unknown:
Now your chapter on heroes and villains, warns against idolizing and vilifying celebrities, and politicians. Now, but at the same time, the book has some pretty harsh critical criticisms, you know. So how do you how do you kind of reconcile that? I mean, what mindset do you recommend for for working your way through this?
[00:31:16] Unknown:
So, individual actions of of politicians and celebrities, I I don't think that you can't say that, you know, that's an evil thing. If someone were to murder somebody, then you can say, okay. It's probably an evil person. But then if that same murder, runs in saves save some kittens out of a burning house, then you can't just be like this person early out. That evil person's running in there. Like, that individual action itself, has to be judged separately, and you're allowed to say that that's good even if it's an evil person. So imagine your least favorite politician, and they do something that aligns with you perfectly.
You can't just be like, I disagree with this now. It's it's not about the celebrity of the per you know, the celebrity itself. It's about the individual actions, the individual, ideologies, of a particular topic. And
[00:32:24] Unknown:
I kinda mix that into, like, single issue voting, things like that. Yeah. I I and I like that. Pragmatic attack or that you did that. I thought that was I thought that was really, really interesting. And, you laid out a few points between, and you you used you used president Trump, you used Elon Musk, And you brought some really, really good points. I mean, they're good on some things. They're not so good on other things. So can talk about that a little bit. Elaborate more on on those positions that you took.
[00:32:55] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:32:56] Unknown:
So spot. Go ahead.
[00:33:00] Unknown:
We'll we'll just go with Trump. He pretty in my opinion, he his campaign speeches and the things that he said were kind of not right on point with my beliefs, but a lot of them overlapped. He had he was more libertarian, I think, in his, campaign speeches and promises. And then he'd never kind of delivered on them. He kinda went back on a bunch of them. So let's say you're a huge Trump guy though, but you're an but you like the anti war part. Just I gotta do a specific. Because he kind of ran on that, and he's like, oh, this Russia Ukraine thing, I'll end that. The the Israel Palestine thing, I'll end that. And so if you are anti war, you can't just now say, well, he's one of my heroes, so I have to just back him no matter what. It's well, you don't. Just say I he's got this one position wrong. It's he's not a hero, and if you hate him and, let's see. What's what's something he's done that the left would like?
I know I don't know if he's actually done this, but I know during campaigning, he mentioned, like, IVF for all. And I would imagine that that would be a big win for people on the left that they would love that. So that's like you know, you can't if you if if you hate him and he's evil and he does that and it matches how you think government should be run, then you have to say, okay. Good. That's it's then like that one position. It's fine. You don't have to commit your entire life to saying this person is evil and everything they do is evil or this person is good and everything they say is good. Just have different opinions on different subjects. It's fine. Nobody's gonna think any less of you.
[00:35:02] Unknown:
Yeah. I I try to think of something like you mentioned something that that president Trump said or did that the left would like. President can Trump president Trump can cure cancer tomorrow and the left will scream apoplectic about taking away their right to have cancer. You know, it's it's there's nothing he could do that that will please the left. I, you know, and disclosure, I I am a Trump supporter. I I think he's doing a I think he's doing a a good job. If I was to give him an, a grade, like a school grade, I would give him probably like an A, maybe an A minus. I'm not thrilled with everything, that's going on. I would like to see the war come to an end in Ukraine. It's not our war, and I know that he campaigned on try on on ending that war. I would like to see it end.
Not that I care about what goes on between Russia and Ukraine. I just don't want the money to be spent. You know, that money is, you know, that that's that's money that you and I work for work hard for, and, could use that money to take care of our own families and our own particular needs. Why are we funding the pensions of people in Ukraine during this war with with all our tax dollars? And what happened to all this money that went over that way? A lot of it has not, manifested itself according to what, if you well, if you believe what Zelensky says. So, of course, I would love to see that come to an end. Again, not for the matter because I don't care. I don't care what happens to Russia and Ukraine. It doesn't affect me. It's not it's their problem. Let them deal with it. Leave me alone.
You know. It's the money. I I I don't wanna see the money being spent. The other issue is this this this again, the conflict with, you mentioned, Israel and and, Hamas and Palestinian state and all that stuff. You know what? Honestly, I don't care about that either. They've been at each other's throats for centuries. Just let them be. Let them kill each other, you know. Eventually it'll come. And I'm being sarcastic, you know, but let them be. Let them fight their own battle. And again, coming from a position I don't know what your religious background is I am a born again Christian. Alright? I do believe that, in that passage of scripture where where where God says, you know, I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curseth thee, you know, and all that stuff. I believe that stuff.
But because I believe that doesn't mean I have to support a corrupt government. You know what I'm saying? So there's a difference here, you know. Yes, I love the Jewish people, yes, yes, I do believe that they are God's chosen earthly people, I do believe that, but it doesn't mean that I have to walk lockstep with a corrupt government leading those Jewish people. So I agree. I so so on those marks, I I I wouldn't give them a passing grade on those things. But, you know, as far as securing the border, look, I live in a border town. I live in Eagle Pass, Texas. You know, I'm I'm five minutes away from the border. I'm I'm just a few I'm even closer to Shelby Park where that standoff took place between the state and the federal government under the Biden administration. I'm not far away from him. I've seen this stuff, you know, firsthand.
You know, so I I I give him an A double plus on the border stuff. You know, I think he did a fantastic job. The ICE deportations. Hey, if you're here illegally, you don't belong here. He's gotta go. You know, let's go. Get him out. I agree with that. I I, you know, I don't I don't think there should be any exemptions to it. Yeah. I don't care what some screaming liberal has to say about, well, they they were entitled to due process. No. They're not. They're here illegally. You know? Due process doesn't apply if you're here illegally and you're not a citizen of The United States. You know? Due process in The United States is for United States citizens. You know? So, so they gotta go. Get in line. Come in the right way. You're more than welcome to come in the right way. It's breaking the law that's the problem for me. It's it's it's it's, you know, you're you're not here to do any good if you're breaking the law to get here.
So Right. You know?
[00:39:18] Unknown:
Yeah. The, the the comment of they haven't like, they're arresting people or deporting people that haven't broken any laws, but it's like, oh, no. I mean, the base state is if you are here illegally, you're automatically you you have broken the law. Exactly. Exactly. By default.
[00:39:36] Unknown:
Absolutely. And and and the funny thing is though, it's it's it's so common sense when you think about it. It shouldn't even be an issue that that we that we're arguing over or discussing. It's it's it's this is just be common sense. You don't belong here. You gotta go. And So Here's something I gotta admit.
[00:39:58] Unknown:
Alright. You're here. Kind of embarrassing. No. Okay. Into later than I would like to admit I won't give a a number. Late into life, later than I should have believed this, I was under the impression that our border was like movies where, like, you know, the they're trying to escape to Mexico, and then there's, like, a bunch of armed people that are, like, shooting out the tires. I thought that, like, our entire border was, like, armed guards for way longer than I probably should have.
[00:40:31] Unknown:
Okay. So we won't go further than that then.
[00:40:34] Unknown:
So, yeah, I I kind of was was like, yeah. That makes sense. Like, if somebody invades your country, you could they get you gotta shoot at them. Like, I thought that was the thing.
[00:40:46] Unknown:
Right. I didn't yeah. I I could I could understand that. But the recent estimate that I had, was, 52,000,000 illegal aliens in this country.
[00:40:59] Unknown:
That's in a sixth of the country?
[00:41:02] Unknown:
52,000,000 illegal aliens.
[00:41:05] Unknown:
That's insane.
[00:41:06] Unknown:
Yeah. It is. And I think I think this is like 30 of 30,000,000 came in under the Biden administration.
[00:41:14] Unknown:
So Yeah. That's a quick pickup. Not not very sustainable. Exactly. I thought they liked sustainability.
[00:41:21] Unknown:
Yeah. No. That was their buzzword. Sustainable for the Democrats. Yeah. For sure. Because now they're getting they're gonna, you know, they're giving them, driver's licenses, which means that they can vote and they all that stuff. So, yeah, it's sustainable for them because it's gonna provide a voter base for them. Wow. To sustain them. For for twelve years until we go bankrupt. Well, yeah. I I think we already are bankrupt. They're just they're just not telling us yet. So Oh, yeah. True. But, that's another issue altogether.
[00:41:50] Unknown:
Alright. And there's the chapter on the Fed.
[00:41:53] Unknown:
Yeah. There it is.
[00:41:55] Unknown:
Take a look. We'll never go bankrupt.
[00:41:58] Unknown:
Not as long as you can print money. Not as long as you can print it. It'll be worthless. Money to buy bombs. It'll be worthless, but we can print the money. You know? It that's that's the crazy thing. So what kind of transformation or insights can readers expect from your book?
[00:42:15] Unknown:
Well, if you if you, take the advice of the book, and it's, the main advice I would say is that you should, like I was saying, actually sit down, consider your values, your principles, who you care about, how you think you should protect them, what they need protected from, and write them down. And, you know, don't just have it in your head. Say it to someone. Say it to people you love. Say it to as many people as you can to get it out there. And I'm not saying you can't change your mind, but once it's out there in the world, it makes it more real.
Like, what are your lines in the sand? So when those lines in the sand are crossed, you kind of feel morally obligated to do something about it because you already told everyone that that's your line in the sand. And you're kind of you're kind of, like, setting a trap for your future self of, like, I'm not gonna let my future self get away with this with, you know, let's say abortion is your, your biggest issue. So set a set a line in the sand on your opinions left, you know, whichever way you go, and say if this is ever crossed, then I'm not gonna stand for it. And then when that day happens, because, like, during COVID, we realized I think a lot of our lines in the sand were crossed, and no no one did anything.
And so, if that's your biggest thing, if, like, kinda lockdowns are your your big one, your number one issue, then, when that's crossed, you you kind of, you owe it to your previous self to do something about it.
[00:44:05] Unknown:
I agree with you. I agree with you. Now, your your work touches on desires for bravery, safety, and preserving freedoms. Do, do most people approach those with a clear sense of their priorities? Or do you think, they need help uncovering them through stories of personal mistakes and, decaying society?
[00:44:34] Unknown:
Bray so bravery and safety. So I think that, could you repeat it? Sorry. I got lost in my own mind.
[00:44:45] Unknown:
Okay. So so I guess the basically, the question is, the book the book the book you wrote talks about, having desires for bravery, safety, preserving freedom, and, you know, so I think some people have a problem, approaching those things. So, do you do you think that do you think that how do I now see, I I chat about it. I think I got it. So so, uncovering them through stories of personal mistakes and decay, do you think that helps people, approach these with a clear sense of priority?
[00:45:24] Unknown:
Yeah. I yeah. Okay. So, like, on bravery and safety and the stories and mistakes of those around us, I think we kind of, we do need those, and we need to pass them on to our kids. And, I guess I'm saying, like, without those this kind of it's kind of a continuation of what I was saying with the the lines in the sand, and that needs to be your moment of of bravery. And sometimes you won't get the, you won't get the mistake or you won't get the opportunity to actually be brave because that never act it may never actually happen. I didn't like, if it weren't for 2020, it may never have happened in my life.
And I think that it you know, that's kind of a benefit. It's a chance for us that, you know, that bad bad story from our life in 2020 is gonna be an opportunity to pass that down and, lock on to that value, of what I I consider that my safety. Like, other people might think they're like, the COVID lockdowns were about giving them safety. I think safety is is preserving our freedoms and, like, resisting the lockdown because I I feel like government is a bigger threat than a cold.
[00:46:56] Unknown:
Yeah. I I I I would agree with you, and, had a great conversation with another guest last week about this too. This, you know, the whole the whole thing with the government, with with the lockdowns, I my opinion, and I'm don't think I'm wrong on this, I think a lot of it was a a test to see how far they can push, for an eventual, for eventual permanent lockdowns. For, for the next pandemic that the quote unquote pandemic that's going to come around, it'll be that much easier to get people to to to comply. It'll be that much easier because now they're already geared up for that. And then, of course, that'll come into with, you know, you're familiar with, Agenda 2030?
[00:47:42] Unknown:
Is that the, like, the,
[00:47:45] Unknown:
WEF. Plan? Yeah. WEF thing, you know, you'll you'll have you'll own nothing and be happy. Yeah. You know, it's it's all pushing toward that stuff. That's the the central the central bank digital currencies because, you know, god you know, wrongthink will get your your account blocked out. You won't be able to buy anything, sell anything, you know, do anything because, you know, unless until you until you walk in line with what the government's telling you you need to do. So that's what I think that was all about. I think that a lot of that has to do with, just getting people into lockstep.
[00:48:15] Unknown:
So that that kinda reminds me of, I didn't know if, like, I stopped I slowed down on drinking for my own reasons, but I did see, a thing today or a few days ago, some sometime recently about, like, a decrease just in general of drinking in America, like, from previous generations. Yeah. And, I'm wondering if, like, that kind of had something to do with it just because, you know, everybody became less attached to people even though it wasn't, like, you know, an entire year where nobody saw each other. It wasn't that. It could have been that, but it wasn't. But, like, just that shock of, like, disrupting people's lives, you know, that could be an added benefit. You could say that.
Yeah. No drinking. But at the same time, it's drinking's associated with socializing, and it's so, like, I think maybe the get people to socialize less just on a grander scale may have been, like, an intentional thing.
[00:49:20] Unknown:
Well, the interesting thing is that during the lockdowns, the, you know, strip clubs were open, casinos were open, liquor stores are open, bars were open. You were able to do all that stuff?
[00:49:31] Unknown:
There's there's a lot of things like events, at least, that got canceled on on my end.
[00:49:38] Unknown:
They weren't, like, just a lot of individual things, but as far as businesses go, I mean, those things are still open and available. I think I think alcoholism, I think the drinking and and drug use and all that stuff increased during that period of time, and now it's on a decline going back to where the guys the normal levels would have been. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So that that's why you're seeing that that marked decrease in that. But, I mean, I I don't know. I mean, I could be wrong. Look. I'm Italian. That's what we do. You know? I don't know. That could be wrong. You know? That that's just
[00:50:05] Unknown:
that's what I I got it.
[00:50:08] Unknown:
That's that's what I think anyway. So for for those people that want it all, you know, the the the strong family bonds, you know, the civic duty, economic fairness, resistance to authoritarianism, how do you help prioritize, especially when views like yours have affected personal relationships?
[00:50:25] Unknown:
How do I prioritize what?
[00:50:29] Unknown:
How do you help them prioritize those things? Strong family bonds, civic duty, economic fairness, resistance, authoritarianism.
[00:50:40] Unknown:
I mean, those are those are the values and principles that I hold true, but I'm not really necessarily saying that everybody should match mine. And every I think they should. Don't get me wrong. But it's it's less about convincing them that very narrow, aren't you? No. I I'm just saying I think you should like what I like. It's like, if I thought some other value system was better than mine, I would just change my value system to that value system. Okay. So, yes, I I think all of my opinions are the best opinion you could have. Otherwise, I'd change my opinion.
But I'm not saying you have to agree with me on everything. I just think that the more it's more about the fervor and that you have for your principles, whatever they are. That's more important. And, family values are pretty tried and true tested set of values that have gotten civilization through a lot of time. So, it's hard to argue against that many years of history. But if you have some logical argument, like, on why it's worse and your personal beliefs are better, then so be it. But you need to sit down, like I said, argue with yourself, write them out, tell people why you believe them.
Don't just say this is I believe this, say why you believe it. And if it's dumb, I'm sure somebody on the Internet will be glad to tell you why it's dumb. Oh, yeah. I can I can help you test it out? One thing I did, or I've been, like, a little side project, I mentioned in the book, but it's not, like, a major part of the book. But, I testing my moral framework with AI, and I'm trying to, like, build that up, build a program that does that and lets, you know, you have an account that's you, like, ask yourself a bunch of questions, and then it finds contradictions in your moral framework, and then you can test each other's, like, oh, what does Jack think on gun rights?
And then you go ask, and then it'll, like, say, according to all of Jack's rules of logic and, like, the things he values, this is what he thinks on gun rights. And then you you could be like, oh, actually, I asked Jack about that the other day, and he just he does he disagrees with that. And then he, like, messaged me and say, hey. Your thing's broken. You gotta go fix it. And then I go update my moral framework to, like because there's a contradiction in it, and it's just like a a test for yourself. So
[00:53:20] Unknown:
if I ever get that off the grounds, that's a a really good way to test yourself. That'd be that'd be pretty interesting. I'd like to check it out. Alright. Until then, just argue with your friends. Perfect. Alright. Final thoughts. Our next guest is lining up. So our final thoughts here. So what do you hope the audience takes away from this conversation today?
[00:53:39] Unknown:
I hope they go to jemcmahon.com and buy my book. And then, other than that was was kind of that. The the having principles write them down, lay them out in a logical fashion so when something bad does happen, you have a logical reason to position behind your rage so your rage doesn't kind of take over and make you react to something incorrectly.
[00:54:08] Unknown:
Alright. Outstanding. So, I know you already did it, but where can the audience go to find out your find your book and learn more about you, your work?
[00:54:15] Unknown:
J e McMahon, which is m c m a h o n. I have all my socials linked on there. And then also the Substack, which is only a a few articles that's about the AI moral framework.
[00:54:26] Unknown:
Alright. Outstanding. Jack, thank you so much. Again, I I'm sorry for the, the the the the hiccup getting the stream started today. Again, first time using StreamYard and, of course, the thing gives me a problem and we have to restart everything. So and you know what you know what I forgot to do? What's that? I forgot I forgot to start the the audio stream.
[00:54:49] Unknown:
What do you mean?
[00:54:50] Unknown:
So I I live stream audio and the video. Oh, okay. I forgot to start the audio stream. Oh, okay. So, like, the,
[00:54:59] Unknown:
the no video version.
[00:55:01] Unknown:
Yeah. So I have to figure out how to get that uploaded to the to to my host platform after the show. We'll figure that out somehow. Alright. Jack McMahon, thank you so much for being with us. For having me. What's that? I said thank you for having me. Oh, you're well. And my pleasure. We'll we'll definitely get you back on again. Alright. Folks, Jack McMahon, thank you so much, my friend. Alright, folks. So what we're gonna do is we have, Josh Lewis waiting in the wings. So we'll we'll bring him on here momentarily. We're gonna take a very, very quick break. I'm gonna go use a little restroom here, and get some more coffee, and maybe some bourbon.
We'll see. We'll see. Alright, folks. So, just stick with this. Don't forget, this is a live show, weeknights, 7PM central time. And, still learning my way through all of the, intricacies of StreamYard here, so bear with us on this one. Alright. So we'll be back in, just about, two minutes or so. Alright. We'll be right back. Stay with us. Hey. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share with all your friends, your family, and followers. Alright. Hey, folks. First hour is in the books. Welcome back to the Joe Russo. My name is Joe Russo. It is great to be here with you guys again for our numero dos.
How you like my Spanish there? It's what I picked up living down here by the border. Alright. Jack McMahon, that was great. And, no, Jack. I just saw your I just saw your private chat, Jack, if you're still listening or watching. No. It's the bourbon is not because of you. The bourbon is because of all the headaches that we had at the start of the show with the stream crashing. Alright. Right before we bring in Josh Lewis, let's take care of a little bit of the, bill payments. So let's, swing on over and okay. I guess not. Let's try that again.
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Alright. Josh Lewis, a CPA from Tulsa, works for the Oklahoma State Auditor's Office. With over a decade auditing governments, he offers an outsider's take on politic on politics inaction. Having been an active participant in the Republican Party, Josh stepped down as Tulsa County Republican Party treasurer in 2016 over disagreements with the party's direction. A student of conservative thinkers like Edmund Burke. Edmund Burke. That's a name. Edmund Burke. Russell Kirk. Thomas Sowell. He hosts the Saving Elephants podcast. So like I told you at the beginning of the show, has nothing to do with conserving elephants. Alright? It's talking about conservative think, conservative thought. Josh is passionate about sharing conservatism with, conservatism's depth with millennials tackling their unique challenges, like reviving subcultures, rebuilding civil society, and balancing order with liberty. Josh, welcome to the show.
[01:04:19] Unknown:
My apologies. Bad start there. I was just saying it was great to be with you, and I'm I'm glad to be on the other side of StreamYard. Sorry to hear you're having some difficulties, but it's it's been a lovely platform for me. Oh, no. No. It's not the platform. It's me. That's
[01:04:32] Unknown:
you know? Yeah. I I I I did a test run with a with a buddy of mine over the weekend, and, went fine swimmingly. No problems. No issues. No concerns. Nothing. Today, I hit that go live button, and one of the platforms was coming back saying it's not properly configured. So That's frustrating. It's ridiculous. It really is. But especially because I used the static stream key. Mhmm. So it shouldn't have a problem like that. But none nonetheless, we did. But we got I think we started about, like, maybe ten or so minutes late. So but we're here. That's what that's what's important. Well, hopefully, it's smooth selling from this point onward. I hope so. I hope so. And, I don't know if you heard, but, but, Jack text sent me a private message on the in the private chats asking if the bird was because of him. It's not because of all the headache starting with the show. You know, and I I'm
[01:05:27] Unknown:
like I said, it's interesting being on the other side of it because I actually saw that message in back in the green room. I could see him, messaging in that. And I'm sure that's what your first guest says guests are always hoping is that I hope he's not reaching for the bourbon after I get off this thing. I think you hope. You hope.
[01:05:43] Unknown:
So, so this is great. I was looking forward to talking to you. This was I thought this was, there he is. He's in the he's in the, rumble chat. Let's give him a little hello there. Alright. So, what was I saying? Oh, yeah. So I've been looking forward to this, actually. We started messaging back and forth a while a little while ago, and, the schedule finally opened up where we can get on the on together. And, you know, I love what you're doing. I've been listening to some of your podcasts and, your own and some of the ones that you've been on. And, and man, I I I'm really impressed, and I'm I'm I'm glad we were able to get this time in together. So, without Awesome. Without dragging things on too much, first important question is, what is something most people don't know about you but should? Oh,
[01:06:32] Unknown:
gosh. Wow. That was a well, the but should is the hard part. There's a lot of things people don't know about me, but I don't know that they're all that important. I've never blown a bubble with bubble gum, but I don't know that that needs to be podcast. For those who don't know, and honestly, probably if you listen to my podcast, you probably do. I play, a mean five string banjo. I think it's an incredible instrument. It's a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of banjos that are much better than I am. But fortunately, as a banjos, you don't have to be that good and you can impress people because there's not that many people that play it. But it's it's an authentic you know, that in the saxophone, the authentic American instruments, and there's just something
[01:07:10] Unknown:
so earthy about the banjo. It's so rooted in our country that I I I just love it. Well, I love I love a good banjo. I I honestly, I'm not just saying that because you hear it. That's God's honest truth. I love a good banjo. As a matter of fact, what very interesting source is is how I got attracted to the banjo. It was a movie called Deliverance. You ever see that?
[01:07:35] Unknown:
I've seen the famous, well, let me rephrase the famous scene. There's two famous scenes. I've seen the scene where the dueling banjos is played, and I know that song. It's a great song. Yeah. No. For sure it is. That's, that was a young Joe Biden playing,
[01:07:49] Unknown:
and, playing the banjo there. But, but,
[01:07:54] Unknown:
so true.
[01:07:56] Unknown:
Strange but true. Yes. The, but but that's what turned me on to to to the banjo, actually, because I I saw that. I was I was quite young when I saw that movie. And, I was like, oh, that's awesome, man. I love that. That that's that's crazy. It's such a fun instrument. It's you can't help but smile some or groan. Smile or groan. Well, you know, depending on how good the banjo player is. Fair. They call them banjoists? Or
[01:08:21] Unknown:
I call them banjoist. I don't know that I've ever heard of a I I well, there's probably some less children appropriate terms, but, yes, banjoist is the most common, term.
[01:08:33] Unknown:
Alright. And, by the way, if you hear, if you hear a a smoker's cough type bark coming from the other side, that's my boy, Charlie.
[01:08:41] Unknown:
Okay.
[01:08:42] Unknown:
He he's he's my, he's my time gauge. So I'll know when it's time to end the show when I start hearing him barking at the door, because that's him letting me know that it's that he's hungry, he wants to eat. So anyway anyway, alright. So we got that one out of the way. And now here's the second one. What is your go to beverage to help you unwind at the end of the day?
[01:09:03] Unknown:
I am well, I'm actually a teetotaler, in in more ways than one. That's that's that's one of the few things Donald Trump and I have in common, neither of his drink. But I'm also a teetotaler in that I really like tea, actually. I I've never acquired a taste for coffee. I love the smell. Never acquired a taste for it, though. But I I enjoy the ridiculous variety of tea out there. And this late at night, I tend to drink the non caffeinated stuff. But, you know, I just like getting lost. And and any month you ask me, I probably might have a different literally cup of tea that's my favorite. Okay. But I just like that kind of endless variety, and and it's a it's a nice lift. You know, it's got caffeine in it, but it doesn't give you the, the jitters like coffee would, for which someone like me is is an issue.
[01:09:44] Unknown:
I never I never liked tea up until, I wanna say I got COVID the first time. Nope. That's when I that's when I started to like tea because I couldn't drink the coffee because the coffee tasted horrible and bitter. It was just nasty. And, my wife at the time introduced me to green tea with honey and and, lime. Mhmm. So that that just became my go to, and I I enjoyed that. I I I will honestly say that I probably have a nice cup of green tea exactly the same way,
[01:10:16] Unknown:
at least three or four times a week. I wish I could remember the guy's name. There was a French general in World War one. You know, World War one was a horrible situation. He was on the front lines. He was in the trenches. And it was just simply understood among his lieutenants that at a certain time of day, you didn't interrupt him no matter how dire the situation was because that was his tea time. You know? He he knew how to to do self self care pretty well, I guess, even in the middle of a war situation.
[01:10:41] Unknown:
No no matter what's going on around me, I don't care if they're bombing the bunker. Exactly. I'm having my tea. Leave me alone. The routine was important. That's awesome. I'm telling you, you you do when you study history and you really look at history, you you see just some really wild characters out there. You know, you know, one of my favorite quotes is is, from General Patton. You know, he said, you know, I don't like paying for the same real estate twice. Talking about whether or not to retreat or advance. You know, I I love that quote, and and I actually use it quite frequently, especially at my job, you know. So if I have to go fix something, I don't wanna have to go back and fix it again. So be careful with it, you know, and I'll tell that to people. So, so it's, so I I love studying history. History is one of my favorite things, to talk about. I love American history.
You know, I I I got myself in trouble before for saying something like this, and I'm gonna say it again, because I don't really care. I don't believe that the World War two generation is the greatest generation. Great generation? Yes. Greatest generation? No. I believe that the greatest generation is our founding generation. Ah. Because they were thinkers. They were men of action. They've they've they've built a country from the ground up, which is not something you get to do very often in anyone's lifetime. And they entrusted future generations with this republic, which would which with which what we have, and I think that if our founding generation could come back for an for an hour and see what we've done with it, there would be public executions.
There would be tarring and feathering. It would it would because this is so far so far away from what our founding generation envisioned for what this republic was to be. And, so that's why I I consider them the greatest generation. There will never be another generation like that. A man of deep, profound thought. You know?
[01:12:56] Unknown:
Go. Oh, I'm sorry to to interrupt. It's just I I like the way you said that. I was I was, when you said not the great generation, well, he must be picking a different generation. I was wondering who where you're gonna go, but, yeah, you'd be hard pressed to find a better generation of Americans than than the founding. Now I wanna add one thing to what you said. It is true. It's very rare for for a group of individuals to have the opportunity to build a nation, but some have done it. And I think that too highlights why the American founders was such a great generation because others who have done it are the French revolutionaries or the Russian Bolsheviks.
Those experiments didn't turn out real well. What the American founders gave us lasted, and that that that was they were more than just idealists. They were more than just doers. I think they had a profound sense of the weakness of human nature, but also its capacity. And and they they didn't get caught up in sort of utopian ideas of what could be, but rather truly unleashed, you know, liberty and an ordered structure in a way that others who have tried to do similar things have failed miserably. And thank God we had the founders we did because they succeeded.
[01:13:58] Unknown:
Oh, I agree with you. I I a 100% agree with you. And it's like what Benjamin Franklin said after the constitutional convention, you know, when he was asked, so what do we have? And he said a republic if you can keep it. Yeah. Unfortunately, that's where we are today. Are we going to be able to keep this republic? Listening to some of the shows that you've done, one particular one I listened to today, what was the name of the show you were on? I'm sorry, man. It just flipped out of my head. Oh, it's okay. It's, I I'll I'll I'll remember it later on. It'll pop in my head.
But you were talking about, you meant you were talking about the founding generation. You were talking about those issues that were there and how, you know, a republic is very fragile. Mhmm. You know, a republic is only as strong as the generation that's living in it. And, you know, I I I I fear for what the future of this republic that we have is because less and less you hear the term republic when people are referring to The United States or or what I like to call it, the American Union. It's, much like the European Union. You know, it's a it's a it's a, a a a a conglomeration of of individual sovereign states. This is this is where I also get in trouble too because people disagree with me on this one.
It's it's a conglomeration of of individual sovereign countries that have come together and formed a compact for mutual defense and common trade. That's what the founding generation's view of what the republic was to be. It has gotten so far away from that. Now you you hear the term somebody I like I don't like to use the term nation. Alright? Because a nation implies no borders, no no no individual sovereignty of the states. It rep to me, it it it speaks of one powerful central government controlling everything and everybody. So I try to stay away from that. Unfortunately, you're you're conditioned to use that word from from school going forward, from grade school up.
So every now and then you slip with it. But my my home, my country is Texas right now. You know, I was born and raised in the state of New York, the country of New York. We have gotten so far away from that where states have no idea what their identity is. And once that happens, I think the Republic is gone. And that's the direction I see us going. And that scares me. It it scares me because I love the way our founding generation set it up. Were they right in everything? No. They weren't. You know, they made mistakes. They made some colossal mistakes in in some ways, and the generation succeeding that. Absolutely. A friend of mine just texted me and said, shut up and let him speak.
[01:16:57] Unknown:
No. I'm enjoying it. I'm sorry. Well, like, if I I could I could riff off what you just said there because I I think I think it is true from a certain lens that certainly, you know, that that the founders had envisioned more of a lot let's say at the time, 13 sovereign nations who themselves came together to form a a union. Mhmm. What you're describing, though, of course, was deep at the debate between the founders themselves, not only in the declaration and the constitution, but many years later between the Federalist and the Anti Federalist or then later the Federalist and the Democrats. And and I think there is a certainly a more an app a proper American tradition of sort of the more Jeffersonian, say, not just him, but that would have a more, this term could be a little problematic, but I'll try to explain myself, confederated views, say, if you will. Yeah. I agree. Every every time I say that word, I preface it, you know, with Right. It it came to mean different things up in antebellum American prior to the civil war. But at the time, it was more of an understanding of, no. These are these I think the best way I've I've heard it phrased before is there was a time in The United States where we said The United States are, whereas now we say The United States is.
Right. It's a different way of thinking of it. And and this makes sense. These are individual, colonies that they had probably a stronger sense of I'm from Maryland or Georgia or or Massachusetts than they did that I am this other relatively recent thing, a new nation. The alternative view there was Hamilton's, of course, which, and it wasn't just him, but he was probably the head of that spear, that it was necessary to have a strong central government. Now let me be really careful here in saying a Hamiltonian strong central government is radically different from, say, a Woodrow Wilson FDR modern progressive America central government. Yes. He did not mean entitlement system. He did not mean a welfare state. He meant rather you needed a national military, because European powers could in fact take us over. And you also needed some sort of a cohesive sense of identity, else these individual colonies would eventually just start warring with each other. I he also had a very strong sense of you need a central, and this may be getting this way off in in in left field, but some sort of a central bank to establish a central monetary system.
Yeah. There there's there's something we could argue about for half an hour. But but I I guess what I'm saying is both of these, I would view as equally legitimate American traditions. Mhmm. I would also say depending on where we're at in history, either one of them taken to an extreme is very dangerous. I think an extreme confederation does in fact evolve. We are different than, say, the the EU or or the European Union in that, I don't know if it's still this way, but I know at one time you could take a euro and look at the back of it. Because I I went to Europe once, and I have these euros, and I looked at it. It was like, I don't recognize the structure on the back. Like, I you know, there there's there's really famous structure. Europe probably has more famous structures than anywhere else in the world. Where where's the Eiffel Tower? You know? Where's, you know, where's this or that?
And I read an article later that said these were fictitious buildings, that they were done that way so as not to elevate any one nation over the other. They were creating whole cloth out of thin air this nation, air quotes, if you will, of Europe, which doesn't exist. And and I think here in The US, we have thankfully been able to do something a little different. There is a stronger sense in which we Americans can identify as American. And and here you may and I may just simply have a disagreement. I'm an Oklahoman second. I'm an American first. Mhmm. But I also recognize that the federated system we have necessitates Oklahoma has to be different than Texas. Mhmm. And Texas has to be different than New York. Correct. And that is the direction you know, I I will agree with you here.
We have moved way beyond, you know, the the the more Jeffersonian view of everything falling breaking apart. We're way too centralized now, and that is the great danger of this moment is not that we're taking Hamilton's view, but that we have lost our sense of sovereignty as individual states and as a result, lost part of our sovereignty as citizens.
[01:21:03] Unknown:
I agree with you. And, you know, it's not a it's not a Democrat Republican thing either. This is, you know, this is the fault of both parties, or or every party that has been in existence in this country since the foundation. You know, little by little, you're seeding more and more responsibility away from the states to the central government or or, I like what the I like what our founding generation called them, the general government. Mhmm. You know, would would forward would would just cede more and more authority over until we're in the situation that we're in now where you have this monstrosity of a central government, of a general government overseeing every little aspect of your life, including how much water's in your toilet.
I mean Yeah. You're talking about a ridiculous overreach. You know, I would love to see it stripped down to its constitutional authority. You know, the specific agencies that that that the Constitution says there should be. Not all of these added on things and other departments and whatnot that that just have no real accountability to the individual citizen or state that just pretty much seem to run willy nilly, do whatever they wanna do with no oversight, no accountability. I mean, I think it's I think it's I think it's pretty ridiculous, and as we're going somewhere else at this, I I think. But I I I think that it's absolutely ridiculous that we have a federal reserve that can be that that they're appointed by the president of The United States, but can't be removed Mhmm. By the president of The United States, who appointed them in the first place.
You know, I think that's I think that's that's that's incredibly dangerous that that this unelected group of people are running our financial policy, basically. That they're in control of interest rates, which costing you and me more money. Which costing the federal government more money in interest payments on their debt, which is, which then of course trickles right down to the individual taxpayer, and you're overburdened. So I think that's a it's a very dangerous thing in that we have, and I think that's something I would love to see stripped down and gone. Now I understand Congress is can revoke the charter for the Federal Reserve and and strip it down. Will they? Probably not. Never happened. Just like You can't get Congress to do the most basic thing today, let alone revoke a charter.
Right. Well, that and I was just gonna also comment on on the district court judges. I I distinctly remember Mike Johnson saying that Congress has the authority to disband the district courts. Okay. Well, let's do it. Shut them down. They're not they're not required in the constitution. Constitution doesn't establish district courts as a permanent thing. They establish district courts as a needed thing. So I think I would love to see congress act on these things, but they don't. They don't. Because there's really no interest in it. Because they're not they're not really that upset or bothered by the system. They wanna keep the thing going. And we're off we're way off in the weeds. I know. We're way off in the weeds. Let's let's do this. Let's let's let's get to the notes here. Let's let's talk about your journey from, College Republicans, president to stepping down as a party treasurer in 2016.
Why? What what what what shaped your decision to to to distance yourself from part from the party? And how did that lead to what you're doing right now with, Saving Elephants?
[01:24:34] Unknown:
Well, I I will try my best to give you a short answer. And if you want me to expand upon it, please let me know because, because I could go on and on. I don't wanna bore the audience. Although I might be alienating some of the audience and saying that the chief concern I had was, in fact, Donald Trump in 2016. I had long been I I've always been a Republican. I was for years prior to that. I'm I'm in my early forties, so I, you know, I and I I was interested in politics at a young age, so I had vivid memories of Clinton and certainly George w Bush and Barack Obama. And my concern at that time was that the Republican Party was primarily offering a moderated position, a a watered down conservatism.
And what I meant by that was that they were not in fact interested in a limited government in a lot of ways as as you're describing, But we're we're okay not only with the entitlement system, but consistently wanting to expand it. It is true that spending expanded in the Reagan administration, but I think he was probably the closest thing in the last century to a a conservative well, barring Calvin Coolidge, say, to a conservative president or what's that? In our lifetime. In our lifetime. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Good point. That would be sort of the model I was hoping we could get back to. And I thought there was, you know, varying degrees of that within the conservative movement within the Republican Party.
When Trump came along, I think he spoke to the the disaffected masses that were also very upset with, say, the Bush administration, but for slightly different reasons. I think for them, it was and I'm not trying to speak for other people, but it just seemed evident that it wasn't ultimately about the limitation of government or runaway spending as much as it was. The elites have failed us. Those in charge of the neocons have gotten us into a war we ought not to have been in. The housing market has collapsed. The bankers have profited handsomely. And, you know, what about us? Like, we're paying our taxes fair and square. We're obeying laws, and looks like the criminals are getting away with stuff.
And it was more than just that. But I you know, at in in the debate when when Donald Trump literally turns to Jeb Bush and says nine eleven happened when your brother was president in a Republican setting, you know, it was very obvious that there must be a lot of anger here towards the Bushes if he's not laughed off the stage for saying something like that. And then, of course, he says John McCain isn't the you know, I don't I prefer my heroes not being captured or something to that effect. It represented, I thought, Donald Trump a hostile takeover of of the GOP in in effect. A sort of the elites have felt us, and therefore we're going this new direction. I did not, care for the direction he wanted to go for the simple reason that he, well, first of all, I don't think he had the character then or now that I would like in a leader. But he was also just flatly I I mean, I'll I'll give him credit for this. He flatly said, I'm not gonna change entitlements. We're gonna get rid of the fraud and corruption. That's gonna that's somehow gonna solve the, the trillion dollar bloated deficit we have, which is untrue, by the way. But at least he he wasn't doing doing what a lot of Republicans do, which is we're gonna fix it, and then they don't actually do anything about it. Right.
I will admit in 2016, and for good reason, I was far more concerned that Trump was essentially a left winger in hiding. There's a lot of evidence for that as far as his past history went. He he is not that, I don't think. I don't believe he's a conservative, and I don't mean that as an insult. I just mean I think he is a nationalist populist. I don't think he's for the sort of limited government I would be for. But but he's not like a Hillary Clinton or he's not an AOC. He's he's not a socialist. He's not a left winger. And certainly in culture war matters, he is certainly not of the left. But but I guess I'm trying to summarize here. I was very disheartened by the direction the party chose to go and has since doubled down on, if you will.
And and so my hope is, especially speaking to younger Americans, that there are alternatives to the failed establishment and to the current trajectory of the GOP. These are not our only choices. There are other, offerings of, say, a conservative limited government viewpoint that is a much healthier politics that we could aspire to.
[01:28:42] Unknown:
I I have to agree with you, and I just wanna go back to something you said. I, I've been involved well, I've been interested in politics very young myself. I'm I'm 55. I'll be 55 this year.
[01:28:54] Unknown:
You have the advantage of without hair. I can't tell if you're in your thirties or eighties. Well, I did that on purpose. Yeah. I wasn't
[01:29:00] Unknown:
losing it. I just decided one day. I see. You know what? I don't feel like coloring the hair anymore. So let me just There you go. Get rid of it. But, but, I'm I'll be 55 this year. So the the the first presidential election that I was eligible to vote in was Ronald Reagan's second term. Oh, wow. So, and I proudly did that. I've been a Republican, since, I mean, even before I was able to vote, I was still I was already leaning that way. Since then, I've watched the Republican party drift so far from what I believe the Republican platform should have been that I I I I don't really tell people I'm a Republican anymore. I'm a conservatarian.
So I am I I have elements of conservatism, and I also have some libertarian leanings. And I think, I'm I'm comfortable with that balance. You know, I did support, president Trump from his first attempt to run, up until up until recently. And, I I voted from three times. Who else? You know, I'm not gonna vote for Hillary Clint Hillary Clinton, you know, and I'm certainly not gonna vote for, Kamala Harris, not because of not because of any other reason other than the fact that I don't agree with their politics. I don't agree with their policies, and I think they're incredibly corrupt.
I like some of the things that the president's doing, like I we talked to the previous guest. If I had to give him a school grade, I'd give him an a minus. You know? And and the strength of that is the border. Because I live in a border town. I live in Eagle Pass, and, you know, I'm five minutes away from Mexico, and, just a short distance away from Shelby Park where that stand down took place between the federal government and the state. So, you know, I I saw all this stuff firsthand, you know. I I've I've seen all that stuff going on here firsthand. So I I give him credit for that. I mean, he shut the border down. That's great. It's exactly what he needed to do, and and he was right that, you know, you didn't need more legislation. You just needed a different president, and when he said that at at this at his, joint session of congress. And I agree with that.
I think though there are other things that he's doing that I don't necessarily agree with, that, I don't feel I I feel like it it's it's it's it's just like a filler. It's like it's it's it's giving him something to do other than some of the things that he said he wanted to do, like trim the government down, get rid of certain agencies and departments. He yes. He did. He got rid of, Department of Education, returned that back to The States. Thank you for that. But let's get rid of the the Department of Energy. We don't need that. Let's get rid of, you know, go down the list of all these departments that were created from the seventies, you know, the sixties, seventies, eighties that we don't need. TSA,
[01:31:56] Unknown:
Homeland Security. We don't need Homeland Security. I'm getting the sense you're a big Ron Paul fan.
[01:32:01] Unknown:
Yes. Okay. I I because I'm starting to hear Ron Paul channeled here. I I I do. I I have a lot of respect for Ron Paul. I I agree with him on on a lot of things. I not necessarily on everything, but Sure. That's that's fine. You don't have to walk you know, we're not Democrats. We don't walk lockstep with the what the party says, no matter what it is. We're thinkers. And that's, I think, the beauty of being a conservative is that you're a thinker. Why? Because we believe in individual liberties, individual responsibility.
Interesting, I got into a debate with somebody, and it's a little off the subject, but I got into a debate with somebody recently about what self government really is. And, so if somebody came to you and said, well, tell me what self government is, I think you and I probably have the same answer. It's it's it's it's not so much of ruling our own communities and things like that. It's self government Mhmm. So that I don't need to have an overarching, overreaching, government telling me exactly how to live my life every step of the way. Self government, restraint, you know, understanding that, okay, morally speaking, I cannot go out and kill somebody. That's morally wrong, you know. Yeah. Do we need to have those laws in the books? Yeah. Of course we do. I mean I mean, common sense, but but self government. So I got into this debate with this with somebody and and, they tried to convince me otherwise, but, but that's the whole thing. We believe in self government. We believe in, individual liberty, responsibility.
It's huge responsibility. You know, take you know, being responsible for your actions. You know, being responsible for your for your own space, the things that are around you. We have drifted so far away from that as as the Republican party that, I I I don't really identify with the Republican party anymore. And as much as much as as Donald Trump has kind of, in a way, reinvigorated the Republican Party, it's not still not the party that that that stands on limited government. We we still have an overreaching, overpowering government. We have we have the house, we have the senate, we have the white house.
We should very easily be able to strip the government down to the necessities, and all the other stuff turned back over to the states where they belong.
[01:34:22] Unknown:
I there's a lot I could say there, but that based on that very last thing you said, I I would argue it cannot be done easily, but it can be done. Yes. It it it must be done thoughtfully and carefully and and with great, not only political will, but just foresight and and sort of and it requires bargaining and understanding what we're doing. And and I think that's part of my concern is where I see it's more performative than it is an actual rigorous effort to understand what would it take to unwind the monstrosity we have. I now I think if it were easy, it would have been done. I think the will is there, certainly with Trump. I I don't think it's a matter of, well, I just really like, you know, the the, National Endowment for the Arts, and so I'm not gonna touch them or something to that effect. I think it's more it's hard. It's it's a hard thing. This is what we just you know, Ronald Reagan succeeded in cutting taxes. He did not succeed in reducing the size of government. That's right. No Republican has succeeded in reducing this. Nobody's really tried other than Reagan, but nobody else has actually succeeded in reducing the size of government. There have been proposals, but they're not easy. And and I think what's sorely missing is clear headed leadership that that expresses here's the direction I wanna go Mhmm.
Instead of a sort of more performative it's more the sizzle than the steak. Right? We we can we can shut down certain things and get the headlines we want, but where are the trillions of savings we were supposed to have expected? And and I would just say I fundamentally have a hard time listening to anyone talk about they're seriously thinking about reducing the size of government if we're not gonna talk about entitlements because you could shut down every department and ban more than half of the military, we would still be running deficits.
Until you have figured out Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, you will not. You absolutely will not resolve, the death bomb that we're going to have to deal with at some point. And I don't mean that we have to get rid of it. I don't mean, you know, there there's any number of reforms, but I think that that alone shows me both the Democratic and Republican administrations and parties are simply not serious. I agree. Democrats, you know, in in in earlier, just just so the audience is clear, I am no fan of Trump. I have not voted for the guy. As as you mentioned, you had three times. I have not voted for him three times. That doesn't make me a Democrat. I'm not happy with the Democratic Party, and and I certainly don't think that they offer a better solution or a better vision.
I I am aware of the fact that they want to blow the problem up even faster. And so we're kinda stuck between it it's sad, but I I think what it what we have are two big government parties that have different, say, maybe in culture war values, and and they have some distinctions. But if we're just looking at the bottom line of are we gonna go bankrupt as a country, I don't see that either of them are serious about addressing that issue.
[01:37:19] Unknown:
I agree. And I and, honestly, I don't even think the Democratic party knows what their platform is anymore.
[01:37:24] Unknown:
Yeah. It's Yeah.
[01:37:26] Unknown:
They're they're so far off to the left at this point that I I I how anybody stays anybody with a rational mind, I don't I don't know how they stay in the Democratic party. I'm not saying to to, you know, come over to the Republican party, you know, but I don't know how you stay as as a Democrat. You know, go independent if you have to. I mean, whatever it is. Be independent. There is a rise of independence. It is. More so than we've ever seen before. Yeah. Yep. That that's a lot of the disaffected Democrats that are that are I don't wanna say abandoning their party because I think their party abandoned them. You know, the the the Democratic party of JFK is long gone. Yeah. You know, the the day of the Blue Dog Democrat is long gone. You know, that just doesn't exist anymore. Now you have AOC. You have, the other mental moron from Texas over here. What's her name?
Jasmine Crockett. Oh. You know? So, yeah, that that's what the party has become, and it's it's gone it's jerked so far left that the so so I I could understand. I could see them going to the independence, which is great. Personally speaking, I I don't think there should be any type of and this is just me off my head. You know, I don't think there should be any type of party, designation. I think you should just vote the ticket that represents your values the most, or represents your positions on things the most. You know, it shouldn't make a difference what party it is.
[01:38:52] Unknown:
I'm, I'm skeptical that such a world could exist outside of that very brief period where Washington and Adams were president. Yeah. I think the parties have become I don't necessarily wanna say necessary evils, because at times parties, I think, can serve a very vital function in in a democratic institution. Mhmm.
[01:39:13] Unknown:
But I also, you know, don't begrudge anyone who looks at our as I do, looks at our parties and say, what what nonsense? What what an utter waste of space? You know? Why don't we be better than party shouldn't exist. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it it I don't think it's necessary for someone to declare I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm an independent. Oh, I see. I think, you know, just just vote. Just vote for who represents your values, your morals, your positions, on whatever the issues are. That's that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Have parties because you need you need you do need to have some delineation as to who is who and what is what. You know? Right. And what the positions are and the the platforms are, of course. But individually speaking, I don't think it should be necessary to register as a Republican or register as a Democrat or register as this and register as that. You should just register to vote. That's it.
[01:40:04] Unknown:
I, you know, I'm I am uncharacteristically going to need to think about that before I'd offer much a reply, so we'll just leave it at that. I may agree with you. I don't know. I'd have to think it through. Alright. So your podcast,
[01:40:17] Unknown:
Saving Elephants, which by the way folks, you gotta check it out. It's a it's a really, really well done show. Your podcast dives into thinkers who are sh who shaped conservative thought, like, like, Evan Burke and Buckley and Sowell, you mentioned earlier. How did their ideas inform your approach to addressing the loss of civil society and community?
[01:40:38] Unknown:
Yeah. If you read well, especially Edmund Burke or, Russell Kirk, if if you read anything those guys wrote, you're going to notice that such worlds apart from the last thing Donald Trump posted on Truth Social or, Gavin Newsom posted to Twitter, it it's it it makes you a better person just reading their words. The the caliber of their arguments, the convictions they expressed, the beauty of, how they saw a political system, how it was to work and not work, what actually allows for liberty to endure and its relationship between an individual searching for happiness and in the founder's sense of the word, not hedonism, but meaning and purpose and and virtue in one's own life, and what a rare gift liberty is.
That I I think it's it's not that you can't engage in fights and politics. It's that that is so minimal and beside the point to what is truly important within a broader conservative framework that it almost gets assumed or lost in the larger more beautiful argument, if you will Conservatism ought to be something that people willingly want to join because they see a way in which it resonates with them as a this is what I would this is the life I want to build, not because they saw somebody screaming at somebody else on the college campus and denouncing them and, you know, evoked enough liberal tears to, you know, get them to run off the stage. I'm not saying that can't be enjoyable. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of lunkheads out there with some really dumb opinions, and it can be fun to watch that. But if that you know, as I say sometimes, if what you think conservatism is is you brandishing a firearm in your Facebook profile, get out there and learn a bit more because it's so much more beautiful than that. And, you know, do yourself a favor. It dive in deeper. So how would you I may have strayed from your question. I'm sorry. You asked about That's fine. That's fine. Good. Look. Rabbit you know, bunny trails. We talked about it earlier.
[01:42:41] Unknown:
So how would you define conservatism then?
[01:42:44] Unknown:
Well, I've spent many a podcast trying to do that, so I'm gonna give you the succinctest answer I can. I think, Roger Scruton, the conservative philosopher probably gave the response that I think is best if we're just looking for a short definition, which is that it begins with a sentiment that the good things in this life are easily destroyed but not easily created. Mhmm. And so we come into this life. We look around. We see the things we're grateful for, and we say, what do I need to do to preserve these good things? Now it goes on from that. You know, Yuval Levin, Jonah Goldberg talks about conservatism is gratitude. It's rooted in first what do we have. Russell Kirk talks about it being a sentiment that it's more a a suspicion that our traditions are, worth upholding even if we don't understand them. Abraham Lincoln said it's trusting the devil you know to the devil you don't know.
All of this, I think, points to and this is all rudimentary. Right? We could put this on a bumper sticker, each each one of these ideas. But I think what that builds up to is sort of a notion that no one human and no one generation has all the answers. Let's learn from each other. Let's respect our elders. We're not beholden to them. They made mistakes, but so do we. But let's not dilute ourselves into thinking we're somehow better than they are. Let's also be mindful of the generation coming up after us as someone we owe deference and duty and responsibility to. Mhmm. And so we ought to build a world that is sustainable and is is prosperous and is something we would be proud to hand down to them. That requires conservation, requires defending things.
It requires understanding who we are, where we came from, why those things are important. And and I think that's sort of the I had a recent guest on, Steve Heywood, who had a very good way of putting it. The conservatism is the search for the unchanging in an ever changing universe. Right? All around us is change. What is anchored? Human nature doesn't change much. God's gifts don't change much. It really is. And there's so much off of that. And and I think that's where, you know, obviously, we can have big conversations about what the tax rate is or which politician you should you support. But I think you need those grounding kind of, you know, this is the permanent thing. These are the things that are most precious to us we wanna hold on to.
[01:44:56] Unknown:
I like that answer. That's a that's a really good answer. Yeah. Unless we got a comment here from the chat. Says, oh, I like this guy. You found a fan. Well, thank you. I don't know if I could can I put that up there? I don't think so. It's on the Rumble chat, so I don't think I can put it up on here. It'll let you in StreamYard, but I'm not sure about Rumble. Yeah. I know. I have to be on the Rumble stream for that. But I got a fan there, buddy. Saving elephants podcast. Check them out. Check them out. Check them out. Happy to have you. Now you now you've talked about where conserv contemporary conservatism, or con or the contemporary conservative movement has gone off the rails.
What's what what missteps do you see, and how do you suggest conservatives course correct?
[01:45:39] Unknown:
I think well, as Thomas Sowell said once about, he said that I understood this sounds like I'm getting way on left field, but I'll I'll bring it I'll bring it home here in a second. Thomas Sowell says we often ask the question, what causes poverty? That's the wrong question. We know what causes poverty. We're all born into poverty. We don't have any skills that, you know, when we're born, we don't have anything other than what's given to us. So real question is what causes wealth? And I think in a similar vein, I would say what causes liberty? What causes ordered society? That's the rare exception. We humans are naturally tribalistic or we join some sort of a monarch or some sort of a we identify ourselves as here we are and here's the other group, the in group, the out group, and we're fighting with each other. That's normal. That's been 10,000 of human history in all civilizations.
We're the aberration. We're the weird ones. And and and so I think you have to start there by saying, okay. Well, what's so what causes us to be so weird? And it is, in fact, this beautiful system we have of order of liberty, the founders bequeathed to us, that has allowed us to flourish in spite of our fallenness as humans, that has helped us identify, okay. Well, we can aspire to our higher angels while still structuring such a way that no true person is really in charge. Not the president. I know he's our leader. I get that, but he doesn't have true authority over my rights.
Now those are given to me by God. Now I can abuse those privileges and I can behave in ways the law says, nope. You're you you have lost, say, the right to liberty your life. But barring that, it is the state's duty to, you know, to essentially hold to those. And so when you ask about course correction, I think it's needful. We say we as a species, just as human beings, are naturally afraid in this world and want to seek out, whether we realize it or not, some sort of an authoritarian approach to set the world right. Okay. Red states have a way of viewing that. Blue states have a way of viewing that.
Either we're gonna end up in a civil war, kill 100,000,000 people, or we're gonna have have to figure out maybe there's a way to sort of do this together. And I think the founders had a brilliant idea of of the federal government. I don't mean the national government, but the federated systems of the sovereignty of states and the individual. And I think returning more and more to that sort of limited framework is the key, to resolving not only our civil discourse, but not only the debt, but just a whole host of political issues.
[01:48:08] Unknown:
Yeah. I absolutely agree with you. The the the smaller the government, the better. The more local government, the better. And and the reason for that is it should be obvious because the local government is more more accountable to the individual than the federal government is, than that central government, that general government located in Washington DC. So I I I 100% agree with you. Just sidebar to that, you mentioned our rights coming from our creator. Earlier, when I was talking with our previous guest, I mentioned this, this this episode that took place during the RFK junior, grilling before senate or the senate, where the senator from Virginia, Tim Kaine, said that he found it, disturbing that somebody would believe that the that that the government isn't the one who, who gives rights and, and and and governs and that way, I forgot the exact quote. But, the scary thing is is that that statement is exactly the direction that the left has gone. They are they have become the party where, it's they're not liberals in the classical sense of sense of liberalism anymore.
They're they're something completely different, and I I and I think they need to we need to drop the liberal label on them because that that's not what it is.
[01:49:34] Unknown:
Go ahead. As you pointed out, it the shocking irony of Tim Kaine saying that senator from, as you correctly identified, Virginia. Right? Of all the senators, Democrat or Republican, you know, and and someone has said the I I can understand if a person doesn't agree with that idea, or what I would hope is a person could be a small l liberal by saying, look. I don't believe in God, but I do believe we have inalienable rights. I just don't think that's where they come from. I also don't think they come from the state. Mhmm. What floors me about what senator Cain said isn't so much that he found that idea disturbing, but that apparently this was news to him. Like, dude, you're a senator in literally the very state where I would assume every schoolboy and girl is taught, whether or not they say it's true, that that was Jefferson's great idea. That was what makes your state so unique. That's where this comes from. Richard Henry actually, Richard Henry Lee.
[01:50:26] Unknown:
Oh, it is? Yes. It's Richard Henry Lee is the one who actually penned the phrase that Thomas Jefferson took and incorporated into declaration.
[01:50:34] Unknown:
I did not know that. Thank you for for educating me, but it it's just and and I think that is a I'm not saying that there isn't room, broadly speaking, the American tent for all those who would say, deny that truth. I certainly am not saying because I I I am a Christian, and and I desire that all men would would come to know Christ. I also recognize as a political project, it's not or at least in my view, other Christians may disagree, that that the purpose of Christianity is not that we can have a really cool government in The United States Of America. And so, therefore, let's convert everybody to Christianity so that we can all, you know, live in the sort of Norman Rockwell picture. I I I think things work better with a broader Christians and worldview in charge, but I also necessarily think we have to find a way to appeal to our secular or I'll say not even secular, non Christians, say religious but non Christian fellow citizens so that they too can agree with a proposition our rights do not come from government, but they are in some sacred sense beyond government. They're pre and and maybe the easiest way to express that is that they're presocial.
That's what Locke expressed that these rights, the right to life existed before the state ever existed. The right to liberty existed before the state ever existed, which is why it's so pernicious and dangerous when your Bernie Sanders go out and talk about health care is right. These are fundamentally different things. Now to be fair, we could have a legitimate debate. Should health care be a right in the sense that we wanna make this available for all citizens. Right? Social Security in theory is my right because as an American citizen, I'm supposedly paying into a system that's supposedly gonna get back to me. So I have I have some legal right to it. That's a very different thing than saying it's a pre political right. That just by virtue of me being a human being, a rational thinking human, I have rights that the state is to respect just because I'm human. And and that is a radically different thing from sort of the Tim Kaine's ideas of apparently, the government just sort of doles these things out out of its own benevolence.
[01:52:33] Unknown:
Yeah. I agree with you. And, you know, that and I find it very disturbing because it's not only him. It's it's this is what they're being taught now in school. So we have a whole generation of of of young folks that are coming up thinking that that government is this all knowing arbiter of of of rights and freedoms, when that's not the case. You know, there was a there was a very dystopian movie that came out years ago. It was it was George Lucas' first major movie. And it was called THX eleven thirty eight or November or something like that. I've not heard of this. Interesting. You need to see this. I'm I'm then I'm being serious. It's, it's it's set in the in the in the future. Doesn't doesn't say exactly when it's set, but, government has become all in all. Everybody dresses the same.
Everybody looks the same. There's no individuality. There is no, there's no religion but government. As a matter of fact, there were scenes in the movie where where, when someone feels that they need to, to to to to have, like a devotional time or something like that, there's a booth that they go into, and then there's this holographic image of a face that's representing the government is telling them, these these these phrases of affirmation, but at the end of it all, it's that government. It's government. It's government. It's government. And that is that that is the direction that the that the the left wants to take us.
And I think, eventually, you you have organizations like the World Economic Forum, you have, the, WHO and I'm sorry. I'm Mhmm. Getting tired.
[01:54:23] Unknown:
You know? Yeah. Coffee.
[01:54:25] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I I think that was the last of it. So Oh, no. Yeah. But, but you have all these these, these non governmental organizations that want to usher in that type of of a world view, And they're doing it now in the schools. They're they're training these these these children, that government is the end all be all. Government is your god. Government and that's where it's gonna come to. Government's gonna be you're gonna be all worshiping at the altar of government. Mhmm. And that's terrifying. It is absolutely terrifying. And it just seems to be moving in an extremely rapid pace. And I know we're we're off in the weeds again.
[01:55:02] Unknown:
Oh, that that's fine. Those sometimes those are the best conversations. I I if you don't mind, a brief response to that that what you're describing is one of the chief reasons I I would call myself a conservative and not just a, say, libertarian, even though I think libertarians have a lot of good ideas. Oh, I do too. I think the greatest bulwark against a collectivist state is not a really good economic argument. I think the greatest bulwark is thick cultural institutions that stand between an individual and the collectivist. And I think what you often see is you end up with individuals that fall into collectivism because all they have is their individual self.
If all it is is me versus the world, it's really tempting to sort of join with a, say, socialist democratic socialist movement that that offers a sort of salvation through collectivization. Mhmm. It's harder for that to take hold. And this is, thank God, one of the reasons The United States has, you know, has has been a really infertile ground for, say, Marxist ideology. You know, exist on campuses, but it's the average American doesn't walk around like the average Bulgarian or Russian or Ukrainian had. You're they they were more right for the picking of, say, a Marxist Leninist view. I gotcha. Yeah. Is is that what you have are extraordinarily thick institutions of family and church and other cultural means where an individual sees themselves as plugged into this larger world. It's not just me versus the world. It's yeah, but I'm a Christian and I'm a son. I'm a father. I'm I'm this. And even as, you know, even even as something as quaint as Robert Putnam put it in bowling alone, I'm a member of a bowling league. There's got to be something in your life that gives you value and purpose, because if all it is the individual, that's a very lonely life. And I think those people are naturally going to be right for the picking of a leftist agenda.
[01:56:46] Unknown:
I I can't say anything against that. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. I I think you're spot on. So I'm I'm looking at the clock here, my friend. We're we're over the 09:00 hour. Do you wanna hang out for a couple more minutes and try to wrap this up, or do you wanna come back on again another time?
[01:57:01] Unknown:
I I will follow your lead, whatever you think is best.
[01:57:04] Unknown:
Alright. Well, I still do I do want you to come back on more frequently, though. I'd love I'd love to do shows with you, like, as a as cohost, you know, just that type of thing and and work something out with that. I think it'd be a lot of fun to do that once in a while. So, I I'm I'm really enjoying the conversation. This this is really good. So what kind of transformation or insights can listeners expect from your podcast or your writings?
[01:57:26] Unknown:
Oh, that's a great question. I I would hope the biggest thing they would find is what, what so encouraged me back in the day is that when I started to really say, well, what is conservatism? And went back and read it the Edmund Burke's Russell Kirks, you know, these heroes of mine. I kinda got angry that nobody had ever shared this with me before. Like, I have been a life I've called myself as conservative. My as far back as my political memory can go, I never even heard of these guys. And I would hope that and and this isn't for everybody. Don't don't get me wrong. It's not for everybody. But for that person that's out there that wants to go deep saying, man, there's gotta be more to politics than just bumper stickers. Mhmm. And and and and sort of yeah. It can be fun. It can be enjoyable. But what what is the roots of this? Where these ideas actually come from? Man, I encourage you to check out saving elephants. That's what we do all the time. I constantly try to introduce you to new sources of how you can go really, really deep. And and I think with that, it imbues our politics is very divisive, and it's very exhausting.
And I think it is an alternative where you can be a member, a proud member, a patriot of The United States, and do so in a way that's hopefully healthier and hopeful.
[01:58:40] Unknown:
Excellent. I love that answer. That's a great answer. Thank you. I appreciate that. So, let me ask you this. We're coming to the final thoughts part of our of our list here. Who's someone that you respect right now, And what are they doing that's inspiring you?
[01:59:01] Unknown:
There's a lot of people I respect right now. Gosh. If I just had this is so tough because I'd like to list off, you know, 20 different people. And and and and and I will say this in passing, like, one of the great pleasures I've had as a podcast host, it really does restore your faith in the country when you see that people no one has ever heard of. They're not famous. They haven't written a book. They haven't done anything extraordinary, but they're deep thinkers and they're passionate and they're, you know and you can you're like, those people are out there. It they're they really are. But if I had to pick just one name, and this isn't an individual who's written many books, it'd probably be Yuval Levin, not to be confused with Mark Levin. Maybe they're related. I don't know.
He's a little bit older than I am. He's he's, you know, as I say, he's got a head that looks like it worn out a couple of bodies. But he is just beyond brilliant. He's personable. He's a very humble individual. He writes compellingly about current issues, but he has a profound sense of conservative traditions. And he does have what I would say well, this is pretty rare, I think, for an individual. He has what I would call a very deep respect and appreciation for the left while still able to persuasively explain why they're wrong. It it just ekes out in everything he does that he he does not hate people, that he genuinely believes what he believes, and he wants them to come to his side.
I I if in Saving Elephants, if all I could ever accomplish just point to my betters as far as people in life today, I think you have all of them as you you'd be hard to outdo you have all of them.
[02:00:41] Unknown:
I have to check him, actually. I'm not I'm not familiar with him. I'm looking for my pen that I could write with, but, I have it, actually. Okay. So, I I I like that too. I mean, I I I don't know who that who he is. I've never read anything of his, but I definitely would like to try that. So I'm gonna do that for sure. John, I I loved this conversation tonight. I think this was this was better than I thought it was gonna be. Oh, awesome. Or I should say better than I expected. You know, I think that you and I think alike on a lot of ways, and, I would I would very, very much like to continue a conversation with you another time. And, I I will invite you to do this though. I I on Sundays, I teach bible studies on this show.
And, I just finished I just started a series right now on Proverbs. I'm I'm two episodes into it. So you have to go back a few. But I did a series on America's Christian heritage. Mhmm. And, I started all the way back in the revolutionary war, and, I think it's something you'd find very, very interesting, to check out because at in in preparation for the study, what I did is I didn't go to, modern day history books. I went back to, historians closer to the actual events. Mhmm. And I got the unbiased, non political renderings of these historical events, and I was able to bring that forward.
And, I I think I think you enjoy it just for the sake of, you know, the the history aspect of it. It was a tremendous amount of fun for me to do. I gained a a much greater appreciation for our founding generation through that as well. I mean, I I I've I've been feeling that way about the founding generation for a very, very long time. You know, I had kind of a a a reawakening, I wanna say, back in probably 02/2002, 02/2003, somewhere around there, and, where I just had this just this overwhelming love for American history. And, I wish it would have been earlier than that. I wish, like, when I was in high school and and college. Although, I will say this, I did have I did have a history professor in college that that really, I I think, was the catalyst for me reigniting my my love and appreciation for our founding generation and that that aspect of American history, because he he was a nut job, and, he he was very entertaining. Because that's a problem with history t the history is not boring in and of itself. It's boring of the history teachers.
Yeah. That that's where it is. So this guy, he would come into class, and you're talking about one of those big auditorium classrooms, you know, not not small little things, but you're talking a few 100 students in this thing. And, he he would come in, and he was an older guy. I'm gonna say he's probably in his probably in his seventies at that point. He came in, he had no notes, no books, had nothing with him, and he would come in, he'd walk up onto the stage, and he would say, okay, where were where was I? Oh, yes. The Battle of Trafalgar.
And he would prance around the stage acting out all of these moments of history. Mhmm. Like, if it was like, he would get on the floor. He would crank the catapults, you know, and and he would wave the sword, and he would, you know, all of nothing in his hands, nothing like that. But he acted out everything. And I sat there, I was like, either this guy is nuts or or I'm or I I I love history. And he made it yeah. Yeah. Both too. Yeah. But but that reinvigorated my love for American history, you know, watching him replay these things. And I kept that in mind when I was trying to do this study. Not not a 100% successfully, but, you know, I I I I wanted to make it interesting for folks to understand where we got our country from and how we how our country was put together.
And just the amazing the the the amazing spirituality of these men that that put together this country. Because you hear so much about, oh, you know, a bunch of atheists and agnostics and and deists and all that stuff. No. No. No. These people these people were devout people. These people studied the scriptures. And, through the lesson, I I I show how how how many times they went to the bible to put together our constitution, to put together our declaration of independence, to put together the founding documents. Those things that that that that solidified what they were trying to do was all founded on in on the scriptures. So this is a Christian nation or a or a nation founded on Judeo Christian value and morals, you know, despite what Barack Obama said, you know, and despite what what a lot on the left think, you know, to that's what and that that goes right back to why I say this is the greatest generation. So I invite you to check it out if you're interested. I think I think you'd find it interesting. Okay. Yeah. I'll check it out. Alright. And I'd love your thoughts on it, your your your critiques.
Alright. So where can we go to find out more about you, your work, and everything you're doing?
[02:05:59] Unknown:
Yeah. I I have the misfortune of, with a name like Saving Elephants, you're mostly gonna find people trying to save elephants if you just Google that. Check me out at Saving Elephants blog. Although if you're doing a pod if you're searching in your podcast feed, Saving Elephants, you can find me just fine or Save an Elephant's Josh or words of that effect that might be easy to find.
[02:06:18] Unknown:
Alright. And we'll make sure I have all the links. And when I figure out the audio how to fix the audio problem that I I did tonight, I'll get it in there as well. But, I'll have all your links and everything ready to go. And, so Josh, thank you so much for being here tonight. I really did appreciate this. I needed this kind of conversation. And, I mean, it's a this was a this was a real treat for me. So thank you so much for being here tonight. It was my pleasure. Alright. Josh Lewis, ladies and gentlemen, Josh Lewis. Thanks again. Alright, folks. Just a couple of quick mentions before we, do I have to move you or yeah. Okay. I'll see you in a bit.
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Alrighty. I think that should just about do it. Charlie is barking here in the background. It means he's hungry. He wants to eat. So folks, don't forget, website, joeroos.com. Make Texas independent again. Go podcasting. Keep a test keep a steady stride, and more importantly, keep talking. Good night, folks. Have a great night.
