National Divorce: A Conversation with Jason Fry on Texas Independence (Ep. 6)

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Hey, folks.

Welcome to The Podcast. This is Joe Rusciello, and we are

here at the asylum studios

broadcasting from the pimple on the backside of Texas, the beautiful city of Eagle Pass.

And you know something, folks? It is

Monday,

January 13,

2025,

and Donald J. Trump

is the certified

president-elect

of the United States, and we are also just 1 week away

from inauguration day.

Well, folks, I wanna wish you guys a very happy new year. This is the first show of the new year for us. So, it might be a little bit late, but, again, happy new year. And, also happy Monday, folks. And I I really hope that you guys had a great week, and and I really hope that you're looking forward,

to the week ahead. Now, we're gonna kick off this week with,

with a with a chat with Jason Frey, author of the book National Divorce, a plan for peace.

Now Jason's a 6th generation Texan with careers

in, in ministry, retail,

behavioral health. He's also authored several books on the subject of knife making.

Jason has 2 graduate degrees. He's been married for over 20 years. He has 4 children, 2 of which are serving in active duty military.

And, he brings a variety of perspectives

to the questions that surround a potential

national separation.

Now, folks, this is an important discussion.

Alright. One that, that I think is very appropriate,

for the day and time in which you and I live.

You

know, there are 25 states,

including Texas, California, Vermont, New Hampshire

that have secession referendums working their way through the legislative process.

You know, I think the time has come that,

we take the idea of a free and independent Texas seriously,

especially when you have 60%

of public support for it

and more elected representatives than ever before

openly signing and pledging

the Texas first pledge.

Now will

Texas happen in my lifetime?

I sure hope so.

But if it's not for me to see, then future generations will one day see Texas rise among the nations once again. But until then, I'm gonna do my part to help.

That's why I'm affiliated and I'm a member of the Texas Nationalist Movement. You can, head over to, the t the t n m dot me for more information on that. You could also,

go to,

on our website, joerusiello.com/tnm

to find more information there.

And the reason why I'm part of that is because it's not often that you have,

an opportunity to lay the foundation

to build your own nation.

And, you know, like I've said in the past and I'll continue to say,

you know, I am I am thrilled.

I'm thrilled that Donald Trump is is heading back to the White House.

I'm absolutely thrilled about that. I think he's gonna do a lot of great things.

I think he's gonna be able to turn a lot of things around,

but the question is is will he be able to turn it around enough?

Personally speaking, I think the damage is done. I think that,

I think that this

this this national separation as as folks call it or this national divorce as folks call it,

is inevitable.

It's gonna happen. It's not a matter of if it's gonna happen. It's more of a matter of when.

But will Donald Trump be able to turn things around enough? I don't know.

I don't know.

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Alright, folks. So we're gonna take a very, very quick, quick break here. And when we come back,

we'll be,

connecting with,

Jason Frey. And, man, I hope you're looking forward to this. This is gonna be a good conversation.

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Hey, folks. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Joe Rusciello, and,

oh, wow. I am looking forward to having this conversation,

the this evening. Now, you know, 2 weeks ago, we spoke with Daniel Miller, the president of the Texas Nationalist Movement, and we had a we had a great conversation,

a lengthy conversation, and, I'm sure we could have gone a lot longer than that. But,

in keeping in line with the direction that we're going,

in the conversations that we've been having,

I came across this great book called National Divorce,

A Plan for Peace, written by a gentleman by the name of Jason Fry. And, Jason is on here with us right now waiting to come on board. And, this is a great book. And if you are really curious about,

this term, national divorce,

this is a good good place to go for it. This is some good information in here, and I think that, it would be a real a real treat for you to to open it up and study it. And, you never know. You might, you might join in with the, with the,

secessionists,

you know? So so but, let me bring in Jason. Jason Frey, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing tonight, sir? Pretty good, Joe. Glad to be here. Oh, that's great, man. I I I really appreciate you taking the time out. I I know we had spoke before the holidays

about, trying to get in here, and, I'm glad we were able to do this. This is great. I I really do appreciate your book, especially after talking with Daniel, 2 weeks ago. Right.

This it it kind of

it it kind of rounds out the meal, if you know what I mean. You know? You had I do. I do. Yeah. You got I have this comment. I have this. Yeah. That that was the intent. That was the intent. Daniel's Daniel's a friend of mine and he he actually wrote the forward to my book. So Yes, he did.

You know, I've been a part of the TNM for quite a while. I think about 2012 is when I kinda ideologically

converted and

started working for him a little bit after that. So I like the way you put that. Ideologically converted. That's fantastic.

Well,

anytime I talk about the t and m or anything like that, I I just I just have to remind everybody that I do have a link on my website,

a page on my website rather to, some information about the TNM, some QR codes. If you wanna be a supporter,

donate or become a member, you can scan those QR codes and and get involved. And the reason why I do that is because in disclosure, again,

like we did with, with Daniel Miller, I am a member of the TNM. I'm a member of the 1836 club of the TNM.

I am going through

a training process right now for, for county leadership,

and, so I am heavily involved. I'm getting heavily involved, and, it's an exciting it's an exciting thing because, you know, Jason, you know, how often do you

do you think people get an opportunity

to see the foundations

of a free and independent country, a free and independent nation. Yeah. Like, when when was the last time when was the last time Americans were even involved in

freedom or independence? Right? I mean, we we have the pretense, I guess, of of blowing up some countries for their own good and calling it freedom. Mhmm. But,

really, no. It's been a long time since we had we had the chance to be to be truly independent. So Yeah. That's that's true. That's true. So, one of the things I wanted to ask you was, what what was the motivation really for for writing the book?

Yeah.

So a couple of places I usually start with that.

Again, I've I've been an advocate for Texas independence for a while.

You know, a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, Marjorie Taylor Greene came out and said national divorce on x and the whole world went nuts.

Those of us that have been working on secession for a long time were quick to say that's a slogan, not a plan. Like, you have no idea what you're talking about. It's catchy. Cool. Thanks for bringing it up. But,

exactly. Yeah. There's no there's no steps to that. There's no such thing.

And so one of the reasons I wrote was

to merge that rhetoric of what if we just split

with the existing,

strategies that T and M and New Hampshire and California and other places are using. Right. So there already is a plan. There's already people working on that plan. And I wanted to make sure that,

when people talk about national divorce,

the rational plans

are right there in front of them.

So that was one reason.

You mentioned in the preshow that you you live a couple of miles from Shelby Park. Yeah. I do. Feel free to fact check me on this, but here's my understanding of that.

Well, I I actually did

prior to us talking. Yep. You know, I I try to vet as much as I can. Yeah. I did. No. So

so here here's the way I saw that. So my understanding is you had a pat a a park where where the feds were maintaining air quotes operational control, which really means everybody and their cousin was coming across,

unencumbered.

Texas did a little bit of legal research and figured out that the feds didn't necessarily have a right to that

property because it was public, but it wasn't I mean, again, I don't know the ins and outs, but Texas figured out they had a legal right to close the park. And so they put up some fences

and literally locks the feds out of the park. So what you got was

Texas law enforcement on one side lined up and

fed law enforcement on the other side lined up. And I bet they all had guns. And,

I'm pretty confident. I'm I'm confident that nobody intended to escalate that. Right?

That would have been foolish and poor. Yeah.

But,

you know, we've all seen the gangster movie where

where you get the the the the two lines of guys, or you put your gun down. No. You put your gun down. Right? And then some little scared kid in the back pops off, and then everybody's dead by the end of the scene. Right?

That was what I was afraid of with Shelby Park. Not that not that anybody wanted anything, but that some guy in the bushes would start civil war by accident because he's idiot.

You know?

And I've got I've got 2 sons in the military.

And

if if it's gonna escalate, I don't want it to escalate. But if it's gonna escalate, I sure don't want it to be by accident or because some, you know, off the wall guy. Right?

Right.

So that that's the other reason I wrote is we we

those of us that believe

that,

that separation is the way forward. You know, somebody needs to be in that space ahead of time before

everybody's dead and we're trying to unpack. Right? Right. So that that was why that was why I wrote the book was to get out there and say,

guys, we're divided already. We already don't get along.

The the simplest answer is to formalize that,

not pretend that it doesn't exist. So so those two things,

to tie the plans together with the rhetoric and

to try to prevent accidental

chaos.

Yeah. Well, one of the things that that popped in my mind when you said that about, you know, the two lines, you know, facing off to each other and, you know, some nervous kid in the back, you know, getting an itchy trigger finger. I don't know if you saw the movie Tombstone, but

that confrontation at the corral,

that scene there,

everybody stopped, nobody was moving, hands on the pistols, hands on the hand, and all of a sudden it was just that one little twitch

that set it off. You know? And it's every cowboy movie, every gangster movie, every

every drug lord movie. I mean, No Country for Old Men. I mean, every movie that has Yeah. The the scene is iconic for a reason because it it it kinda happens that way. Yeah. And I didn't want it to happen that way between the United States and Texas,

right, as 22

entities. So Yeah. No. Of course not. I mean, you don't you don't wanna see anything like this ever come down to to a violent separation.

There really is no need for it. I mean, there there is there is a peaceful way to get through it. You make that abundantly clear in your book.

In Daniel's book, he makes it abundantly clear as well. You know, texted is a plan

is an actual plan that is being laid out, and that that's the that's the important thing. One of the interesting analogies that you use in the book is,

you you compare the national divorce to

actual divorce.

And I thought that was that was,

you know, simple but brilliant at the same time. Well, there's some there's some there's some insight there. So,

a few points we can make off of that one. Number 1, everybody knows what divorce looks like. Right? Whether you think it's good or bad or awesome or terrible, everybody knows somebody or everybody has been. I mean, it's a it's a common cultural thing.

And so when we say secession,

people don't have a reference for that. I mean, they have 1776

and 1861, and those went very differently from each other. Right? But but that was a long time ago. Like, that wasn't my people. I mean, it was, but it wasn't me. It wasn't my, you know, it wasn't my family. It wasn't yesterday. But divorce, man, everybody knows that. We've all seen it. Another point to make there is that,

you know, a divorce doesn't doesn't just drop on Tuesday. Right? It's not all of a sudden, bam, there it is. It's this this period of of dysfunction or separation or conflict or

something. And then the divorce is is the

intentional

dissolving of that compact.

Right? Because it's not working for 1 or both of the parties.

That metaphor holds,

to to the political situation.

It is not like, you know, we we have a Texas independence vote on Tuesday, and we're independent on Wednesday.

And if you we sort it out later. Right? No. It's like we are we we are in the middle of a separation. If we if this were

if, you know, if if the relationship

were a marriage, we would already be in separate bedrooms. We would already be running separate bank accounts. We're still in the same house. Right? But we're already separated,

you know, in in that metaphor.

Another thing I like about that metaphor is that there is

no expectation that you're supposed to kill the other one.

Right?

Right. So

it doesn't matter how much I'm mad at her. She's mad at me. Right? It's still against the law for us to

use violence against each other.

That's why I like this metaphor. Everybody knows what it's like to

to to separate, to unpack, to

to divide by negotiation

with no implication, no expectation, actually with an expectation that it will be nonviolent

because escalating to violence is is out of bounds.

That's another reason I like the metaphor.

Something I talk about that I got from Bob Murphy

that that's different though, is that there was no national marriage. So, like, I I picked my wife. My wife picked me. And, we said, do you? Yeah. Do you? Yeah. Alright. Cool. You know, we stood up in front of our friends and family and and said this one. Me and I me and this one together for forever.

That's what we committed to.

So far, we've done alright. You know? It's been 20 27 years. That's cool.

Yeah. But

when did

when did we do that with the United States?

When did I pick the United States? I didn't. I was I was born here.

When when did when did I pick this government?

I didn't. I mean, I voted for a representative,

a nominal,

a token representative for forever. But I didn't pick the structure. It was it was just here. I mean, it's the water we swim in kind of. It's,

it is not the same as as a a marriage,

in that regard. So the metaphor breaks down there. There is no national marriage. I did not say

me and the United States were tied till death do us part. Right. We no nobody agreed to that. So

so, you know, sometimes the people that are against my position will say, we don't need a divorce. We need counseling.

You know? Okay. That makes sense if you're talking about a relationship. But,

who who would be the marriage counselor for the United States? We're talking 300,000,000

people. Right? It's a couple of a couple of 3 major camps, but each one of those camps is represented by millions and millions of people. It's not the same. That's right. There's nobody capable or competent or qualified to

to mediate that in any kind of a meaningful way. So,

yeah. So when I say national divorce, I'm talking about negotiated separation

in a peaceful way,

without implying that there was some

national sacred,

commitment that were somehow breaking.

Right. Yeah. I think a a lot of,

scholars may if I I say air quote scholars.

Mhmm. But

a lot of scholars

and a lot and a lot of laypeople as well, they'll they'll routinely bring up that word, you know, in perpetuity

or the phrase of in perpetuity, you know, in perpetuity. Yeah. In perpetuity. Actual union.

And you talk about that in the book. And when you were talking about, in one of your chapters, which was

the first one that really caught my eye was that, You know?

The difference between,

America

and the United States, they're they're not the same thing.

Yeah. So in my mind, when I say I'm an American,

I mean that I, I stand for freedom. I stand for the constitution. I stand for liberty. I stand for self determination.

I want you to have it your way, and I want you to let me have it my way. I mean, that's that's,

you know, the true, the just, the virtuous. When we feel like we're Americans, we we tell stories,

about, you know, patriots and things. We don't quote laws. We don't quote laws, really. Strict.

To to justify why we're Americans, we tell stories.

And so

until that that ethos, that that background, that spirit,

that's America. Absolutely.

But that is very, very different from the political entity,

the United States of America that is a a federal government that's supposed to represent,

somehow a conglomeration of 50 different state governments.

Right? So, the idea that we should be a free country,

that's very different from

the reality

of our government structure.

So, when I say,

you know, the United States,

is not serving us well. And we need to we need to separate for our own good and for and so should California. It should separate for its own good.

I am I am not saying

we shouldn't do freedom and we shouldn't do civil rights and we shouldn't do you know, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that

the government structure

of the United States of America does not serve us well. I sometimes say that, an independent state would be more American than America.

You know what? And I I agree with that. I agree with that because because

a lot what a lot of people don't understand,

and a lot of people aren't. I guess you're not taught this anymore either in in in the government school systems,

is that when the United States was founded,

it was founded as 13

individual countries

that came that that I'm gonna use I'm gonna use a very dirty word.

Okay? They confederated

together

Mhmm.

For

trade

and mutual defense.

Yep. They

but they were their own original plan. Correct. When John Adams stood up in in in in that First Continental Congress

and gave his speech before the, the declaration of independence was was signed and, and and and sent off to England,

he said, you know,

give me my country,

a free country. He was talking about Massachusetts. He wasn't talking about some,

borderless,

thing. Yep. Yep. Mesh of of he was talking about his own country.

Yep. You know? And

as time went on,

you know, little by little, it started to chip away, chip away, chip away. And now, you know, you hear that phrase, you know, you know, one nation.

Well, no, I'm sorry. We are not one nation. We are a union. We are a union of states who we are a union of states who voluntarily

joined the union.

You know? You weren't forced into it.

And that that that thing that make us reside in elementary school that that has one nation under god, indivisible.

Right?

That that came up in the, what, the teens, the twenties, the 19 twenties? Thirties, and it was written by a socialist freemason.

But, yeah, by a socialist freemason. That is that is not that is not America. That is not original. That is not the spirit of the thing. Okay? That is modern propaganda.

And so even as a even as a child, like, in 4th grade, I I distinctly recall I was

like, there's not liberty and justice for all. Like, none of these rules make any sense.

Right? As a 4th grader,

I gave up indivisible in 2012.

Right?

But but as a kid, even I recognized, man, this isn't no. This isn't it. Yeah. It sounds not quite right here. Yeah. You know? And,

I was gonna say, I just I lost the thought, but it'll it'll probably come back to me. But,

the

it's just, it's just,

yeah. Okay. So it was the the idea of that one nation is is is socialistic

view of the country.

You know? It's so we're we're we're all It's definitely a post civil war construction.

Yeah. You know,

we're one nation because we kicked your ass because you couldn't leave. Right. And so so, I mean, that that that one nation is is really a a construct of of force, not of not of will.

Yeah. I recently got into a discussion with with somebody,

and, we were we were talking about,

secession. We were talking about,

states rights and the self determination and sovereignty

of of the several states.

Because I like that term, by the way, the several states. Several. Yeah, that's what it is. You know,

So we got to this discussion, and and we were talk we ended up talking about,

the great Abraham Lincoln.

And then again, air quotes, the great.

And,

and I'm gonna get in trouble for that somewhere else. So so hold off the emails. I I

remember the motto of the show is nothing is no no

political correctness on this show. So

quiet. I'll I'll hold off on my Abraham Lincoln rant as well, but, I have been on more than one podcast. There there is

a You can rant all you want, brother. Did I put it in my book? I can't remember. I've said too many things since then. I I think I said if I had a dog, I'd train her to piss on statues of Abraham Lincoln. I think you did. That that sounds familiar. Like, I think I put it in there. I mean, it and there are reasons why. Oh, yeah. For sure. Sure. But that's that's another problem.

It is. It is. And I I I'm pretty pretty quick to come out and say, you know, I can believe at the same time that slavery was wrong. Mhmm. And the south maybe morally should have lost somehow for for whatever existential reasons.

And they were absolutely right, and Abraham Lincoln's a tyrant. I mean, I I don't I can hold those 2 positions,

both in good conscience. Right? So when I Absolutely. When I bring up the idea that

that any state, Texas should become independent or Texas and Oklahoma and Louisiana could form a a trade union,

I wouldn't even use confederacy because I'm not trying to tie it to that previous conflict at all. It's Correct. Completely unrelated to,

the case that we're trying to make today.

So

I I totally agree with you there. And

that was part of the argument that we were making. We were talking about,

the slavery issue. And I because I said, you know, it you know, the civil war was not really

all about slavery.

You know? That's not all about. That's what the North used to to drum up support for it, but it was more of a state's rights issue.

You know? And I do believe that that that even if the even if the South had won the civil war and and had officially seceded, formed the Confederacy,

slavery would have would have ended eventually. I think I think so too. I mean, it has largely ended worldwide in the way that it was practiced previously.

Right. And that was without

civil wars across the board to solve that issue. Right? Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly. So that brings us go ahead. I was gonna say that brings us to another question I had. You know, we

the the constitution and secession.

Yeah. Alright.

So So so the first thing you should do is is pull up the constitution on the Internet and do a word search for secession or secede.

And guess what? It's not in there. Period. Okay.

So what does that mean? That means anytime somebody says secession is unconstitutional,

they don't know what they're talking about because it's not in there. Right? There are plenty of things that are prohibited,

in the constitution. Those things are unconstitutional.

Secession is not on that list. It's not in there at all.

Another fun thing about the constitution is that that little 10th amendment,

let me paraphrase,

basically says

all the powers that the federal government reserves to itself in this constitution

belong to us. But everything we didn't put in this constitution belongs to the states or the people. Right. Okay. It's paraphrased, but it's accurate. Okay. The stuff that's not in the constitution that we didn't enumerate

belongs to the states and the people.

So here's our two points in order. Secession is not in the constitution.

The stuff that's not in the constitution belongs to the states and or the people.

There it is. That's it. Succession is. That that that's that's the way I understand it.

You know, it it's pretty clear to me.

Another way to think about it is so we had a big civil war that didn't go too well. You know, we killed 600,000 people,

to solve that issue.

And then there were some post war

constitutional amendments,

to deal with slavery and and some other things. Right?

Do you think if they were amending the constitution to say

things about a war, they could have said

Sure. Secession is illegal, or they could have said this union is perpetual.

They could have put it in there. They were already changing the rules based on the war anyway,

but they didn't. You know why?

Because it it's not even there. It's not even true. It's not even right. So

they they left it out,

on purpose because it doesn't belong.

So the first thing you, you find when you Google

can my state secede

is you'll find,

the big machine will say no because of Texas versus White.

Okay.

I think every every secessionist will encounter that.

Again, I could sum that argument up fairly quickly. Let me give it to you straight. So that was a case about money.

The state of Texas, the confederate government of Texas had spent some money.

After the war,

the

Reconstruction government of Texas wanted it back. K. That's what the case was about. Who owns the bonds?

Right.

And White was one of the one of the the parties there

that was trying to get the money back.

So

the case made it all the way to the Supreme Court.

There were 7 justices at the time.

5 of those justices on the court were appointed by Abraham Lincoln.

Right. K. It's critical fact.

You know, people can say what they want about the current makeup of the supreme court and the political,

you know, implications of who appoints you. But in this case, 5 out of 7

were appointed by Abraham Lincoln.

Okay. And we're we're 4 years now after a war where we where we killed 600,000

people.

So do you think the guys appointed by the winners of the war

are gonna say

anything except the winners get to keep the money? Mhmm. Right? That's what that case is. Right.

So so that's what that was the outcome. And it was it was politically,

inevitable

that the winners would get to keep the money. And,

so, you know, we could be talking about,

about this, and I could say, what is that on your shirt? Is that a eagle on your shirt? Cool. I like eagles. Okay. And then we go back to talking about Texas independence. Right? We understand how that works.

The Supreme Court does the same thing, and so do large. So, they'll they said,

in this case, the summary I'll give is

something like,

and so, you know,

the

Texas government,

is now legitimate. It was illegitimate

at the time,

of of the selling of the bonds. And so the winners get to keep the money. And, oh, by the way, secession is,

against the rules.

Okay. Like, it was it it it was a piece added

that's not about the case. The case is about who gets the money. It was like an aside. Financial question. But, oh, by the way, you had no right to do that to begin with. Wink wink. Right?

So so that's the case.

So so, yes, the Supreme Court has said that secession is,

not a right,

but it was the Supreme Court,

adjudicated by the winners after we had killed 600,000

people

to to solve this problem.

So there's no other way they could have decided.

You know, even in our our recent lifetime, we've seen the Supreme Court change its mind. Right? So we we had Roe versus Wade. Abortion belongs to everybody as a right. Oh, no. Wait. We're kicking it back to the states. Right? Right. The supreme court throughout history has reversed itself. There's also been some really crazy stuff that has never been reversed that nobody would ever do anymore.

My personal favorite is Buck versus Bell where it is it is

it has been decided by the supreme court that the government has the right to sterilize people with disabilities

to keep them from breeding. I remember reading about that. Yeah. It has never been overturned. That is the law right now by the by the Supreme Court. Now nobody in their right mind advocates for that. That position had society has moved on from that position. And that was only in the 19 twenties. Right. Okay. So are you gonna come tell me that the winners of a war, a 150 years ago, decided forever

that that I had no right to discuss this hogwash?

Right? The Supreme Court is always fallible,

and always political. And Texas versus White is no is no different.

The other point I'd like to make, though, is that go ahead. The Supreme Court has made many rulings that that are

wrong, just out Dred Scott. Mhmm. Wrong decision.

Also never overturned.

Yeah. And and, you know, it just goes to prove that just because the Supreme Court says it doesn't necessarily mean that it's right. Right. And, you know, the other thing I like to say is if if a state decides,

you know, I would rather be independent. Me and my homies, we voted.

We went through a clean democratic process. Everybody was informed, and we voted and decided we're out.

I'm not gonna call up the supreme court or some other country and ask them what they think about that. That's right.

So at some point at some point, independence trumps what that other country's Supreme Court said. Right? It's not like, Thomas Jefferson,

send a passenger pigeon over to King George and said, hey, bro. You know, we we're thinking we might be independent over here. Are

you okay with that? No. You just declare it. Right?

And

there there's some point at which,

you know, the previous precedents don't apply.

Yeah. And and one of the one of the really encouraging things that that I got when I was talking with Daniel last, couple of weeks ago was that,

there there's more

support for

Texas now

than there has been at any other point

since

the t and m started.

Yep. You know? I think what is it? There there are over 600,000

members? Yeah. I think about 630,000

is the is the number of of

verified supporters, I think, is the way they frame it. Yeah. And, you know, and and also, it's also encouraging to see that that in the in the last election cycle,

there were several several elected officials that, that have openly

stated that they were in favor of

our voter secession. Believe 9 or 10 We're voting for independence. State legislators that have signed the Texas first pledge, one of which

one point of which indicates that they will work towards,

Texas independence, including filing a bill. Right? So,

I'm fire on that, though. It's gonna happen. But while while we're, you know, still a couple of days out of legislative session, it hasn't been pre filed. Okay. I can live with that. Because I know that we've got 8 or 9 or 10 people who have have said that they're gonna file. So somebody will.

I think the speaker race is impacting that a little bit.

You know, politics is is always,

is usually iffy. Right? A little bit dirty sometimes. It's a dirty business. And so and so I think they wanna see who's gonna come out carrying the the either the stick or the carrot,

see which way we're gonna play before they start filing stuff that's a little more controversial. That's my that's my personal take with no inside information. I mean, that's just me.

Because that's what I would do. I would wanna see. Right?

You know, what does the Bible say? It seems wise to count how many men you have before you go fight a guy with more men. Paraphrase of Luke.

Yeah. I know the reference you're talking about. But but same thing. That's what's going on the legislature right now. We've got a good coalition,

of strong people

who are wisely waiting to see what's gonna happen.

Oh, that's and that you know, that and that's exciting. Again, just just to go back with what we said earlier,

you know, this is actually if you really, really look at it, this is a very exciting time

for us to be involved with this because

we are potentially looking at

a real opportunity here for

the state of Texas

to to declare its independence and stand up and stand on its own.

And, it can it can it can be done.

You know, the the

of course, you know, one of the one of the things that always come up when you talk about this is like, well, no. You can't do that. You you can't. How are you gonna defend yourself? How are you gonna pay for this, and how are you gonna pay for that? Well,

the the same way any others any other country would. Right. So that argument is a is is a fun one.

It is. It's great. So the the point I usually start with there is that there is no such thing as federal

money.

Every bit of money comes from

taxpayers.

Mhmm. It was Joe's money. It was Jason's money. Right. Right? They took it.

Taxation is if they stole it from us. Right? But they they got it. And now they

redistributed. And so, yes, there are federal dollars, but there's no federal money that didn't first originate with the people of the states. Right. Therefore,

any state that wants to tax its citizens to provide services

can do that.

Okay.

Now,

defense is a fun one.

The United States spends about 3.8%

of its GDP,

notably the highest GDP in the world.

We we cover about 40% of defense spending worldwide.

The the international average is around 2% of GDP. Mhmm. And most of those every single other GDP is less than ours. Right? So,

there is no

there's no international obligation

to match the United States

defense spending levels.

You know, just because Texas or California or New Hampshire or South Dakota

wants to be independent

does not require,

any more army or defense

than Liechtenstein

or New Zealand would have. Right?

If we if we tax at the average international rate, we can have an average international defense. And on average, most countries don't get intact or invaded. Right? Again,

sometimes, sure. But my my point holds, I think. The United States spending is clearly out of control,

clearly an exception, not a rule.

And so to expect that some leaving state would want to maintain that, much less that they would be able to. We don't want to. That's part of why we wanna leave. Right? It's because it's unsustainable on so many levels.

Another way to think about it would be,

the rebound relationship kind of thing. So, like, even if you just got divorced, like, the first guy that goes after your wife, you're going to hate that dude.

Right? That's just how it is, probably.

Sure.

And so just because,

you know,

if if North Dakota

seceded

and, somehow China were to overcome the 2 oceans, the

the huge pile of ice and all of Canada and United States, and somehow get to attack North Dakota right there in the middle. Right?

Number 1, that's logistically impossible and totally ridiculous on purpose. But number 2,

that's still right in the United States backyard. That would be no different than if

China or Russia attacked Mexico or Canada

yesterday,

tomorrow.

Right? It's the same dynamic.

And so whether we just split off or not, that dynamic doesn't change. We're still,

we're still the x and we're still right there in the backyard. Man, you're not gonna mess with us because we're still gonna be,

in proximity

to

geographical neighbors with,

the most powerful country in the world. So

the idea that every little independent New Hampshire

must somehow be a nuclear power with F 30 fives, yeah, bullcrap. It's not practical.

It doesn't need to be that way. No. Of course not. You look you look around the world. How many countries,

sovereign, independent countries,

are smaller in GDP than Texas, that are smaller in geographical size than Texas,

that don't even have a mill because because a lot a lot of people don't know also is that Texas already has its own military. It does. It does. A lot of people don't know that. And when you tell them that, they're like, nah. It's not a tramp. They sure do. They sure do. We got f sixteens,

for 1. I've seen them flying around. Yeah. They fly out of San Antonio.

But now nobody says that, you know, Liechtenstein or Monaco or Vatican City or,

even some other ones like, New Zealand

or Micronesia

or nobody says those places have no right to exist as a country.

Nobody says that. But, you know,

what's that Micronesia that has 40,000 people or something? It's a few islands out in the Pacific that's its own country now. Cool.

Okay. Man, that's like that's not even a small town in Texas.

Right? I mean,

2,000 people. That's nothing. Right? So but nobody says they can't exist, that they have no right, that they must they must x y z defend themselves or tax or spend or whatever.

And so, you know, you you ask how many economies. So Texas consistently ranks 9th or 10th in the world in GDP by itself. Right. Yeah.

California is usually 5th or 6th. Their GDP is a little above ours.

But, you know, I'm gonna make numbers up. It's close. But if there was 250 countries in the world, how many of them have a smaller economy than Texas?

241.

Yeah. I mean, all of them. All of them. Right? So to see that that it's economically impossible

for one of the largest economies in the world

to be independent,

that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Yeah. You know,

again, a lot of that goes back to, I think, the government education that, you know, this is a Mhmm. You know, a perpetual union. You can't leave. You're stuck. Once you've once you voluntarily join it, you can't leave.

Mhmm. You know, it it's just,

you know, it's it's the education system that totally fails. Right. And and it's an argument They go for they go purpose. Metaphors or violence. I mean, you know, so

they always say, well, the civil war settled that.

The in in the the divorce marriage metaphor, let me explain what that looks like. That looks like,

honey,

you wouldn't call her that in that scenario. But, lady,

I almost killed you last time you tried to leave, and I'm a really freaking kill you if you try to leave again.

Yeah. That's the argument. It's an abusive relationship.

We beat you up one time in the civil war. Remember that. If you try to leave again, boy, it's nukes and f fifteens this time. Mhmm. Right. Who's the man? Gina

Woo. Joe freaking Biden. Joe Biden. Biden. I didn't didn't, Jean Woo also came out. Texas state legislator suggested that it's all fun and games until the hellfire missiles start flying. Yeah. Yeah. But Joe Biden has said

no less than 5 times,

on the record that if you wanted to to fight America, you need f fifteens or or not a r fifteens. That's one of his talking points. Yeah. But yet they wanna ban all the AR fifteens.

Exactly. Exactly. But but but my point is it's still the same. It's Of course. It's it's the argument that that violence somehow trumps

everything.

Mhmm. Nope. Nope. That that is a a sign of an abusive relationship.

Yeah. That is an abusive relationship. That is the reason we are trying to leave. Right?

When every time they threaten us with that,

they don't make the point in their own favor. They make the point in our favor because we're saying it's no good. And they say, yeah. It's so bad that we're gonna kill you. That that's no good. Right? So

I don't think I'd wanna stay in a marriage like that myself. I I think I would definitely wanna walk away from something like that. Yes. And that's You know? That's fair. Well, we're we're coming up on,

almost 40 minutes. And,

so, I know you have things to do. So, you know, it's it's it's already kinda late. And I'm sure you and I can go on for hours and hours and hours like this. I suspect we could. We probably could. I think we're on the same page on on just about everything we've been talking about. And we will have to we will have to get together at some point, like, personally, face to face and Yeah. For sure. And and and, and and have a couple of,

Elijah Craig's and Something. Yes. Yeah. Definitely. Something. Yeah. Something. Yeah. Last question I wanna ask you, and and Yes, sir. Well, second to the last question is there's another one after that.

But this is this is, it's an important question.

How do we prepare

for what's coming or this

scenario?

So I take a few different angles on that in the book.

Number 1,

though, starts with me, and it starts with you. It starts with your family and your neighbors.

Right? So

I am willing to

I'm willing to accept or endure or

deal with

some uncertainty and some chaos

in exchange for,

you know, freedom or better life or better government for my children and grandchildren. Mhmm. K. So I don't wanna see it that way. I also don't trust the government to do it the peaceful smooth way. Right? So I am not suggesting that we all need pallets of ammunition

or,

you know, a £1,000,000

of beans. No. No. But

if you had some skills and you had the ability to take care of yourself and you're financially secure,

you knew your neighbors. You knew who could fix plumbing. You knew who could fix

electricity. You knew who could fix your car when it didn't start. You know?

To to go back to simpler times, of networking and personal

responsibility and personal skills

is, to me, an important way to prepare.

I cannot

guarantee

much of anything about how the government's going to sort out things. But I can much more confidently guarantee that I'm gonna help my neighbor, and I'm gonna need my neighbor to help me. Okay. So that's one way to prepare.

Another way would be

through

the

through the existing

political processes.

Right? So we haven't spent much time on it, but I wanna bring it up that what we advocate for for Texas independence

is not a declaration.

It is not a convention. It is not a text it Tuesday where we all just say if you were out. It's a process where we go through

the legislature

with our elected officials who file a bill, who pass a bill using the existing

legal processes.

Right? That's important. That's critical.

So what does that mean? If you're trying to get something through the legislature, what do you need? You need legislators on your side. You need public sentiments on your side. You need media on your side. You need lots of podcasters like Jason and Joe on your side. Right? The message has to get out that this is a good thing.

Right? So so that's one way to prepare. I mean, I wrote a book. I'm now podcasting because I want I want people to think. I want people to understand that that there are better ways and that it doesn't have to be violent.

Right.

I agree. But so so so one would be speak a message of peace and speak a message of of peaceful separation. But

but also, again, I've

worked hard to

influence my local officials and my legislators,

in that direction.

I have failed miserably

at the local level.

My personal representative

is Mr. Dustin Burrows.

And for those who are paying attention is

making a uni party ass of himself right now. Yeah. I haven't voted for him ever. I know I know how you feel. My my

my state representative is Eddie Morales.

So yeah. Again, I don't I don't know him, but Dustin's in the news for bad

reasons. His his campaign called me.

Oh, did they? Because I've met him a few times, and and I called him a few times. You know?

Nice guy. Really nice guy. I don't agree with his politics. He's a he's

he's a Democrat. I think he's more of a conservative democrat, if I could Mhmm. Put that together. Yeah. That that fits with the valley. Yep. But, when

I spoke to his people when they called me, and I was like, well, I'll tell you what.

I would be willing to vote for Eddie Morales

if he would come out publicly in favor of Texas.

Yep. Yeah. We actually had a Democrat

candidate one time that that came out in favor. Yeah. No. Well, they hung up on me. I figured.

That's what they usually do.

They're when I say hung up, I don't mean they, like, they'd win click. I mean, they they just rushed me off the phone. They got they got rid of me right now. Okay. Thanks, bye. Yeah. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Yeah. I get it. I get it. We've all, had that response from

from people

Yeah.

All the time.

And, you know, that that you know, responses like that and things like that is the reason why I started this particular podcast. And like I told Daniel, I I wanna I wanna be able to use this platform

to help push the message of the TNM. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm gonna do my own thing, of course. But, you know Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But I I do wanna be able to focus on issues

for Texas independence. And so I'm gonna be developing segments as I go along. I'm only 6 shows in right now. I just started this one. But, I've been podcasting for a while. I have another show that I do. I do a bible study show. I have over 230

episodes of that, and,

I'm on a hiatus from it. That's why I'm focusing more on this right now. Mhmm. But, you know,

I I don't wanna get the politics involved with the bible studies, so that's why I wanted to do this.

So

because I found myself,

you know, preaching and teaching a little bit too much on,

you know,

by

political bible.

So so let's talk about that. I I dive into that in the book. So

I, I was a minister for a while. That's what I That's my day it is my day job. I mean, I've got a a graduate degree in in psychology and a professional certification there, but I've also got a grad degree in bible. Like,

I've I've done this as a job. Right?

And,

you know, Christian nationalism is kind of a flavor right now. Mhmm. Maybe maybe the most Christian thing you could do is take over the government, make the world more like Jesus. Right? Okay.

Yeah. That's not my thing. We're not really in kingdom building. That's that's that's the worst job. Not us. But my point my point is that,

as a as a conservative Christian, right, I come from churches of Christ. Right? So if it's in the bible, what it says is pretty important.

Yeah. So so if I'm gonna advocate for James Bible believing There you go. Independent Baptist.

There you go. Yeah. So I I had to check.

For my own morality, I had to check. Is is this okay? Like, am I advocating for something unbiblical or not? Right?

And what I found

was, to me, the bible is full of,

stories and information about what political separation can look like.

Mhmm. I agree. Again, I'm not gonna rehearse the whole chapter,

but let me put it this way.

In summary,

a few times,

God orchestrated

separation for the good of his people. That's right. K. Abram and Lot was a is a good example of that. The other good one is when the kingdom split into north and south. Mhmm. It's a fascinating story because god told,

believers,

hey. You're gonna leave, and you're gonna win. Right? 10 of these 10 of these are going with you. So from the beginning,

the the northern kingdom knew that it was going away. It was separating.

Another interesting thing about that one is after they finally separated, the southern kingdom said, we gotta go kick their ass. They can't do that. Right? And god intervened with the prophet and said, no. No. No. No. No. I set this up. These are your brothers. Don't go fight them. Mhmm. Right? So in that particular case,

god set it up from beginning to end to go peacefully.

Look at Nehemiah. What did Nehemiah what did Nehemiah do? Nehemiah went and he

built the wall around Jerusalem. Right? Mhmm. Mhmm. Same thing. Same thing. Yep. And but then there's also other stories. So there's a story of, Daniel and his friends Mhmm. You said, you know, I have these convictions, boss. I would like to follow those. And then they won. Right? They got to eat vegetables.

And then the next time they said the same exact thing, they lost, and they got chunked in a furnace.

I'm actually I'm actually teaching a series through Daniel right now and I just passed that story. Yeah? Yeah. So the the point there though is that

sometimes government will let you stand up for your rights and sometimes they'll freaking burn you. Right? Because that's what government does. Right.

You know,

later, Daniel did had the same experience. He said, you know, I I I have to pray to my god. And they said, no. You're not. And he said, well, yes. I am. And so they threw him in with some lions. Right?

I see

I see that as,

again, not the option I want. Not not what I'm hoping for. But within the realm of possibility. Right? Could the government be so bad

that they would

literally

bomb me for suggesting

that I ought to be independent?

I don't think they are. I think there's a lot of reasons why that's irrational,

but it's biblical.

So,

it it is it is within the realm of government to punish those that would work against it. That that is my biblical conclusion.

So Is it like 30% of the US military are Texas soldiers?

It's a disproportionate

amount. It's a disproportionate amount.

Yeah. So the odds that they would follow those orders, I think, are are small.

I mentioned the preparation chapter. Point. Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned the preparation chapter that, you know, you only end up fighting against your

family if you did a lousy job of teaching them to your values.

Right.

Great point.

That is a great one. My my two sons are men now. I have joined the United States military, and I do not want them to get in trouble for anything I'm suggesting. But I said you're free to do that. Don't remember where you're from. Yeah. Amen. If it comes down to to kill those guys over there and it's me and my friends next door, you don't do that.

Add me to the list? Yeah. Yeah. Don't. Appreciate it.

They they got the point. You know? Serving serving a country, serving

serving freedom, or doing jobs,

like that

is fine. Yeah. Taking

those orders to go kill people who are trying to have self determination,

not a fan. Right?

Yeah. One of the things that I that I had preached at one point

was,

I was trying to make a point, and I said something to the effect of the the only thing that I want the government to do

for me

is to protect my right

to do for myself. That's all I want government to do. Leave me alone.

Let me do what I need to do to take care of myself and my family and the people that I love and care about,

and we're good.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I talk about the non aggression principle quite a bit in there. That's a libertarian foundation of, you know, the idea that force is always wrong.

Violence is always wrong. And I agree I agree with you a 100%.

It's wrong for me to

grab my AR and go to the capital and try to prove a point. Yeah. Absolutely. It's equally wrong for,

you know, the government to threaten to do the same to me. Right.

And and and even biblically speaking, you know, Paul, you know, the Bible does not tell a Christian not to be involved in government.

Alright? The the the Bible teaches that the that a Christian ought to be involved in government, whether it's through prayer, service, whatever it might be. Mhmm. Paul even says that,

repeatedly, actually, in several different passages of scripture, Paul talks about government, especially in Yeah. Romans Romans 13 is Romans 13. He talks about it in in Timothy as well, I think. And,

so it's

so it's you know, a Christian shouldn't

separate themselves from government. I know I know a lot of Christians who say, well, you know, you know, the preacher shouldn't be talking about, you know, politics. Well, no.

The the preacher pre both sides of it. Yeah. Oh, of course you could. But if you look back at the foundation of the country, I I I recently taught a series on the American Revolution and and the Christian influence on the American Revolution. The American Revolution started in the church house.

Interesting. You know, through the preaching of of That used to be the primary social

means of Exactly. Yeah. Education. Right? I mean, it

we we don't we don't have a thing like that.

Right? Any more podcasts, I guess, right, where people gather together and listen to somebody talk. But used to church was it. Yeah. And so it's it's natural that it would have started there. Yeah. And,

one of the stories that I told was, in in the Lexington in 17/75

when, they they heard of the the I think it was, like,

830 something British

Marines

were marching into Lexington,

the pastor of a church.

And

I think it was 17 men

with muskets

marched out and stood in front of their church as the British soldiers were passing by with their muskets ready. 17 against a 100 830.

But the point but the point was

the pastor of that church was the one leading them out there.

And, you know, preachers actually took a very big part in in the American revolution.

So, you know, so Christians ought to be involved in politics. Chris is that, you know, Christians have,

I'm not gonna say a a responsibility to it. But

Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll go both ways in that. So in the book, I take the the approach that,

you know, the power of Christ

to transform individuals

is very different from the power of

politicians to make laws to change behavior. Amen. I agree. You know, the way the way I put it sometimes is that if

if Satan did not own the kingdoms of the world, he could not have offered them to Jesus as a prize for

for temptation.

Right. I I bring that point up regularly

when I'm talking about that. Yeah. I I would always try to to take the power of of politics

and and

use that by force on people violates

the principle of non aggression. It violates

the way God designed his power.

God doesn't force

us too much. He lets us choose all kinds of good and stupid things. Right? But he doesn't force.

And so for for Christians or non Christians, honestly, to co opt the power of government to force is what gets us where we are right now.

That's why we're in this position is because one side has forced us to

accept everybody of every flavor in every bathroom always.

Right?

But the other side is also forced.

You know, on on your worst day of your life when you're having to decide what your trajectory of your life is, we're not gonna allow you to exercise your own autonomy because of a baby's autonomy.

Again, I don't I don't have a dog in that fight, really. Yeah. I can argue both sides, but but the right has forced

their

opinion in Texas, especially,

on the other side. And that that it's that use of coercion of of of state power,

that really causes the problems in my mind.

Totally. And I totally understand that, and I and I and I agree with that. Yeah. That that's that's a great point. It's a great point, brother. Alright. So we're coming up on an hour here. So, how can we find you? How can we find your book? Give us all your your your locations and social medias and all that stuff, and we'll, get you all connected. I'm

happy. Oh, I think we lost you.

Yeah. I'm back. Okay. There you go.

So you asked how you could find me. So I,

I am very much out of the closet finally as a secessionist. I have put my name on this book after working behind the scenes for literally years.

The book is available at national dash divorce.com.

The dash is important.

National dash divorce.com.

If you think Jeff Bezos needs another yacht, you could buy it on Amazon also, and he will send you one.

But

Good one.

Yeah. So national dash divorce.com

is where you can find me. I'm also an x as Jason Fry Jason k Fry.

I advocate for politics on there. I do have other businesses. I'm on other social media, but

most of my politics is limited to to Twitter right now. So Alright. Well, I'll look for my friend request. I'll I'll send it to you after the show. Sounds good. Sounds good. Alright. Jason Fry, thank you so much for taking the time out to be with us here tonight. And listen, brother, I really wanted to get you on the show again some some time when you have some few minutes and We can keep going. I promise. Okay. Yeah. That'd be great. We'll we'll find something else to to ramp up. More rabbits to chase. Yeah. Plenty. Plenty.

We'll definitely do that. Alright. Again, Jason Fry. Thank you so much. Great book, folks. Don't forget to check it out. National Divorce, A Plan For Peace by Jason Frey. Pick it up, get to his website.

We'll have all of that information included in the show notes. And, Jason, we'll talk to you in a little bit. Stay with us. Sounds good. Alright, folks. So we'll be back after this very, very short break. Thank Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us again, Jason. I'll talk to you soon. And, folks, stick with us. We'll be right back.

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Alright, folks. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Joe Rusciello.

What a great conversation we had here today with, with Jason Frey. And, I hope that, I hope that you got something out of that. That was so important, such an important conversation to be having,

to this day at this particular period of time in our country's history.

It's it's incredibly important, and I really do appreciate all the all the work that he put into his, his preparation for the book. I mean, you could tell that he thoroughly researched,

everything that he was that he was bringing forward.

And,

we just really had a great conversation there, and I and I'm looking forward to having him on the show again. And, it's it's a it's an exciting time. It really is an exciting time.

Like you heard us say, there's there's never been more support for it, than we have right now,

especially here in Texas. So,

a lot of great things coming down the road with it. Now, of course, if you wanna get involved with shaping the future of a free and independent Texas,

just head over to our website, joerusiello.com/tnm,

and you can scan the QR codes,

and, you can register your support. You can become a member, or you can make a donation, or you can visit tnm.me.

And, you can get more information about the Texas Nationalist Movement. And, I encourage you to, to lend your support, become a member, make a donation, whatever it is that you can do to help,

make Texas independence

a a a a real

thing to happen now.

And, also, while you're on our website, if you would open up that contact form and send us over any questions, comments, or cares that you might have. Anything you have for me or Jason that you wanna ask about the book, about, our conversation, we would love to hear from you, get your feedback.

Also, don't forget, while you're on our website, click the support button. Help us out with a donation in any amount

or, you know, just check out one of the, recurring monthly donation clubs that we have up there. All of details are on the website.

And, also just to remind you that we are now an affiliate with the alexjonesstore.com.

So, head over to the alexjonesstore.com

/joe,

or scan the QR code or click the link on our website support page, and get yourself on the road to, to to better health. And also remember that 10%

of your purchase

goes to our show, and it doesn't affect your price whatsoever. Your price is what it is. 10% off of that comes to,

the podcast, and then we'll we'll be able to do more, get more guests,

improve our our setup, and and get videos going, and, do all those great things that, we're looking forward to doing. Also, check out our socials on, Twitter or x at Joe Roos,

Instagram

at not Joe Roos. And the reason for that is because when I opened up my Instagram account for the show, for some reason, when I put Joe Roos in, it it immediately suspended me, and I couldn't get back into the account. So I set it up as not Joe Roos. It seems to work. So, we're all good there. Also, don't forget we're on TikTok for the time being,

at Joe Roos there as well. Truth social at Joe Roos. And, now we are on Mines

as well. Mines.com.

If you're not familiar with it, check it out. Great, great social media site and alter a great alternative to Facebook.

No censorship, anything like that, and, you actually can earn,

some money for your posts on there. So check them out at minds.com,

and you could find me there as well at

Joe Roos. And, you know, also don't forget, you know, like, subscribe, share the the podcast with all of your friends, your family, and your followers.

This way, you'll help us spread the show out. We'll get more listeners, get more people involved with this thing, and help us to grow.

Alright. Now, also, folks, don't forget, next Monday

be sure to join us next Monday,

inauguration day at 11 AM CST for an in studio chat with, a local businessman

and, the Republican mayor candidate for the city of Eagle Pass, Aaron Valdez. Folks, you're not gonna wanna miss this. Alright? Well, that'll just about do it for us for today.

So, folks,

lord willing,

we'll see you next week. Thanks for listening.

The Podcast with Joe Rooz