In this episode of The Joe Rooz Show, Joe navigates through technical difficulties to bring an engaging conversation with two fascinating guests. The first hour features Patrick O'Donnell, a retired City of Milwaukee police sergeant turned author and podcast host. Patrick shares his journey from law enforcement to writing, discussing his books that provide insights into police procedures for crime writers. He also delves into his latest thriller, "The Good Collar," and his experiences in the world of crime writing and podcasting. The conversation touches on the challenges of live broadcasting, the intricacies of writing crime fiction, and the importance of authenticity in storytelling.
In the second hour, Joe welcomes Stuart Kellogg, a former TV executive and devout evangelical Christian, who discusses his transition from broadcasting to seminary and his current work in the pro-life movement. Stuart shares insights from his book "The Post COVID Church" and introduces his initiative, Students in Action: Building Pro-Life Leaders, aimed at equipping young people with the knowledge and skills to engage in the pro-life debate. The discussion covers the spiritual and cultural dimensions of the abortion issue, the importance of truth and moral values, and the role of the church in supporting life. Both guests provide thought-provoking perspectives on their respective fields, making for a compelling episode.
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(00:01:42) Introduction to The Joe Root Show
(00:04:07) Technical Difficulties and Guest Introduction
(00:05:22) Guest Patrick O'Donnell's Journey
(00:06:57) Cigar and Beverage Preferences
(00:15:26) Patrick O'Donnell's Writing Career
(00:25:48) Impact of Police Work on Writing
(00:31:36) Transition from Law Enforcement to Writing
(00:36:36) Inspiration Behind 'The Good Caller'
(00:38:46) Consulting for Crime Writers
(00:43:09) Cops and Writers Podcast and Community
(00:50:57) Gun Control and Law Enforcement
(01:00:54) Introduction to Second Hour and Guest Stuart Kellogg
(01:03:45) Stewart Kellogg's Career Journey
(01:17:12) Faith and Media Intersection
(01:31:01) Students in Action: Building Pro Life Leaders
(01:46:37) Abortion Debate and Cultural Impact
(02:02:05) Legacy and Future Goals
- Wayne Rankin
- Rosanna Rankin
- Carolina Jimenez
[00:00:43]
Unknown:
Can you hear me now?
[00:00:45] Unknown:
So did everybody.
[00:00:47] Unknown:
Great.
[00:01:42] Unknown:
Alrighty, folks. Hey. This is Joe Roos. It is nineteen hundred hours, Wednesday, 07/30/2025, and we are transmitting to you live from the asylum studios, from the pimple on the backside of Texas, the beautiful city of Eagle Pass, and we are bringing you the best quality talk radio we could muster without all the bluster. This is The Joe Root Show. Folks, I hope you guys are having a great day. Very interesting that, right now, up on my extra monitor here, I have our guest, but I don't see myself. So that's kinda interesting. I'm wondering what's going on here. So we might have to, do a complete and total restart.
But, while I have him here, let me introduce him to you. Patrick O'Donnell, welcome to the Joe Russo. How you doing, my friend? Doing good. Thanks for having me. Alright. Well, it is, it's great to have you here. I'm just wondering how much, let's see. Well well, before we decide to do a reset, we'll see if the, if my monitor up top here changes over this way, I know we're streaming across. Alright. No. Well, I guess not, because you're talking, and I'm not there. So let's see. Let me check on this one here. Yeah. Look, it looks like you are a solo show today, buddy.
So, let me do this. I'm gonna I'm gonna end the stream, and I'm gonna reset it. Alright? So, you can just click your camera off for a second. We'll be back in a second. We'll see if we get this thing straightened out. My friends, this is the joy and the beauty of doing a live show. So, we, have all of these wonderful little little issues and problems. So let's, let's get this thing here restarted, and, we'll be back. Stay with us.
[00:03:53] Unknown:
There you are.
[00:03:57] Unknown:
Yeah. I'm just wait I'm waiting now for the, for the for the street. There we go. Alright. Yeah. I can see you. Okay. There we go. So we're all set. Alright. So we had a we had a restart, and, we'll be we're back now. We got Patrick with us. So Patrick is gonna sit here since we've already introduced him. He'll sit here with us and we'll go through the, the opening of the show here with him. We do have some, some housekeeping that we normally do, and we'll get we'll do that, right here, right now. So, folks, Ezra healing is a substantial part of the new wellness paradigm currently being born in North America and around the globe. The global citizenry are no longer satisfied with the sick care version of so called health care. Band aid medicine, endlessly treating symptoms rather than root causes, must be abandoned as soon as possible.
Patient centric care must be the priority. We need to transition towards the do no harm model of private care that places humanity at the forefront of real health and wellness care. In this new model, your entire lifestyle is examined and analyzed to promote and support the totality of your body's integrated systems. Ezra Healing is a solutions based health promotion and disease prevention grassroots movement that is always evolving to best serve you and your family. So folks, for more information on Ezra Healing, just head over to ezrahealing.com. That's ezrahealing.com, and make sure you tell them that you heard it here on the Joe Russo.
This way they know that their money is being well spent. Alright. Well, our first guest here tonight is living proof that retirement doesn't mean slowing down. It might just be the start of something entirely new. Patrick O'Donnell is a retired City Of Milwaukee police sergeant with twenty five years of street experience under his belt. But instead of riding off into the sunset, he's leaned into a second act as a prolific author, podcast host, and expert resource for crime writers around the world. He's written 10 books, including his latest thriller, The Good Caller, and hosts the widely respected Cops and Writers podcast. He also runs a Facebook community of more than 8,000 members, helping crime and thriller writers get it right. You may have seen him featured on the front of the page the front page of the Wall Street Journal, or offering insights as an expert contributor on Tubi. My favorite movie streaming service by the way, Tubi. Everybody makes fun of me about Tubi. I love Tubi.
Patrick brings a rare perspective to the table, grounded in real world police experience, and sharpened by a storyteller's instinct. Folks, please welcome Patrick O'Donnell. Patrick. Thanks Thanks for having me on your show. Alright, my friend. So let so we had a so of course, you have the little kerfuffles, you know, live shows tend to have little little issues here like this. They do. And I'm not surprised, because like I always say, it would not be a show that I'm doing if I don't have some kind of a problem at the outset of the show. So it never fails, but That's all behind us now. It's gonna be smooth sailing. Oh, for sure. For sure. For sure. I'm gonna drink my, my blue stuff, and we'll be good. So, while I'm doing this, I'm gonna ask you a question. So what's the most what's something that most people don't know about you, but should?
[00:07:04] Unknown:
That's a good question. And it seems to be gaining some traction. Maybe more people are listening to you than you think. Maybe. I've been asked that more than once. And it first glance of me, you know, I love lifting weights. I ride a Harley. I love smoking cigars. And, you know, my wife called me Neanderthal. I'm a very basic kinda guy. And one of my greatest joys in life is going out for fine dining, white tablecloth restaurant, and I love, love good champagne.
[00:07:37] Unknown:
Nice. See, I'd see, I knew we were gonna get along right away because I am a cigar guy. I I love a good cigar. Oh, absolutely. What's your go to stick?
[00:07:46] Unknown:
You know what? I found a place in Ybor City. Have you ever been? Mm-mm. Out it's outside it's in Tampa, and it was founded by, Cubans. Okay. This is a heavy Cuban population, so, of course, cigars are a big part of the culture. And there's a bunch of they call them cigar factories Okay. Along a row of, you know, businesses. It's more or less, like, bars that have they make their own cigars. Nice. Nice. And you could see them rolling them, like, in the windows. That's when you're walking by. That's gotta be that's gotta be a treat to see that. And I I I thought It really is. I mean, that's a cool afternoon, and you feel, you know, it's like I I remember my first time going there. There's, like, actual roosters and chickens walking around. Oh, cool. Like, holy cow. Alright. Well, that's different.
But there's a place that I really, really like. It's called La Firona.
[00:08:41] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:08:42] Unknown:
And I get almost all my cigars from there now. I absolutely love them. And they're they're very reasonably priced, and, you know, it's like, I've seen them roll them there. You know, and it's just it's a really nice stick. I I'm I'm a big fan.
[00:08:59] Unknown:
Sweet. How about you? Well, first of all, I it I don't think people realize just how much skill really goes into rolling a cigar. They I it's not like rolling a joint on the street corner someplace. You know? This is actually a skill that that that is Absolutely. That takes a long time to develop. And, but, so that's just that's one thing to get out there. The other and my favorite, man, I, you know, I love I love Rocky Patel cigars. I think they're they're just absolutely fantastic, and really great quality. I I love, Artura Fuente eight five eight. It's really nice.
Recently, I I had, I had a a Camacho Triple Maduro, which was powerful, powerful cigar. Pair that nice with with some Elijah Craig toasted barrel. Oh, beautiful. Sure. Great. Perfect perfect pair. And then, was it, I think it was over I think it was Friday or Saturday. I, I got together with a friend of mine, George, and we, we lit up some Avo Heritage, sticks, which were really nice. Very, very nice cigars. So I I I love them. I think they're great. And one of the great things about cigars too isn't is that the fact that you don't it's not like a cigarette where you need it all the time. You know? It it it can go let's say where where did I go? I went about maybe three, four months before I had a stick, and,
[00:10:22] Unknown:
it's just the way it is. It's it's like insane, and plus it's it's healthier for you than a cigarette, I think. You know, so you you may not get I think so too. And, you know, the thing about it is and, you know, I live in Wisconsin where we have real winters. Mhmm. And, you know, that really curtails the cigar smoking.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
Oh, you're not allowed to smoke on the house? Back patio and smoke a stick when it's 20 degrees below zero. Yeah. True that. That ain't enjoyable. No. No. No. No. No. When I when I lived in New York, we we had plenty of those cold winters. And, yeah. You weren't outside smoking a cigar. If you were, you were brave. Yeah. Or you had a problem. Yeah. Either way. One of the two things. Yeah. For sure. But, Yeah. But, yeah. The the they're they're great, man. I I love I love doing that. Like I like I always say, I love sitting out in the back excuse me. I love sitting out in the backyard with a with a a good a good cigar, some bourbon, and a good woman. We're good to go. Well, yep. Can't go wrong there. No, sir. Not at all.
So, so, we already covered your go to stuff. So I was gonna ask you what your go to beverage is to unwind at the end of the day, but I think we got that already.
[00:11:27] Unknown:
Yeah. The champagne isn't obviously not an everyday thing because I don't drink the cheap garbage. I mean, although, I must say, Costco, of all places, has, you know, the Kirkland brand. They have a bottle of champagne that's actually not horrible, and it's, like, $20. You know, Kirkland stuff is not bad at all. You know? Kirkland stuff. I was shocked. I I just picked it up on a whim one time, and, yeah, I brought it home to my wife and I'm like, ah, let's give this a whirl. And I was like, this isn't half bad. I mean, it's not like
[00:11:55] Unknown:
a really good bottle of champagne, but, hey. You know, it's a weekday. You feel like popping up in some bubbles. What the hell? Why not? Why not? I I there there's not a Costco near me. The the nearest one to me is either in Mexico because I'm right on the border. So it's, it's the nearest one is either in Mexico or it's, like, two and a half, three hours away in San Antonio. So so, I don't have that benefit. But when I lived in New York, there was a Costco within walking distance from where I lived. And, I remember the box of wine they used to have too. That was, you know, it wasn't really it really wasn't that bad, you know. It was, you know, if you're just hanging out in the backyard, you know, not not not doing anything super special, special occasion, anything like that. It's not bad. Yeah. They sell premium stuff too. They sell some, like, premium,
[00:12:35] Unknown:
whiskeys and bourbons. They also have, one of my go to, champagnes is Bollinger. I love Bollinger. No. That's good stuff. Yeah. And they had I was watching the price for, like, four or five months. And then finally, I pulled the trigger. I, you know, I text my wife. I'm like, it's under $200. I gotta get it. Yeah. Sorry, honey. So Bollinger's I did. Bollinger is a pricey one. I I remember one time, when I was again, I was much younger. I was,
[00:13:03] Unknown:
I don't even think I was on the job yet. A friend of mine was was throwing a dinner party, and, I I had no idea about this stuff at the time. I I was I was a noob to to all the fine dining, which by the way, I love to cook. I'm I'm a I'm an amateur chef myself, so I I, you know, you get you get five star restaurant quality food in my place. But, at least that's what I say anyway. Sure. But, so my my friend was throwing his dinner party, and, he was like, hey, why don't you bring the bottle? Why don't you bring a bottle of wine? I'm like, alright. I I don't what am I getting? I don't know anything about wine. So he goes, alright. So he gives me a list of of different wines. I don't remember the list. Up top of my head, I'm talking. This is 1992 probably.
So he she gives me this list of wines, and and I remember going to the to the store that I I knew the most, and, I was talking to the to the guy behind the counter, and I was like, well, I don't know what to get. I'm I'm looking my friend gave me this. He goes, well, I don't have this. I don't have this. He goes, this I have though. I said, okay. Great. He goes, I'll be right back. So I I knew I was in trouble when he went to the middle of the store, and he pulled up the floorboards. Oh, gosh. And he went down into the cellar. Oh, boy. Yeah. That just smells expensive. Yeah. And and he brought it up, and I'm the kind of person that if I'm gonna put you through all that to get it for me, then I'm I'm not gonna say no. So Right. So here I'm a struggling college student, and, you know, comes up with this bottle of wine. I was like, alright. Well, okay. How much?
He goes, this one is $3.50. And I'm like, $3? I said, $3.50? He goes, he goes, no. So I bought it. You did. Wow. Because I I put him through the effort, so I was, you know, that's the way I was. So I I bought it, and when I got to my friend's house, I threw it at him. I was like, half now. So he was like, well, I didn't tell you to buy this one. You get you put it on the list. That is the only one the place had. Do you remember what it was? No, I don't. I I I wish I wish I did. Because it was good. I I will say that it was good. I hope so for that kind of cash. That much I do remember. But, so twenty five years on the force. So, after all that time in uniform, what what made you start writing, true crime stories?
[00:15:27] Unknown:
Well, before I was a cop, you know, I I went to college. I got a four year degree in sociology, and my minor was criminal justice. And to pay the bills, I mean, it took me six years to get on the job. Back then, I got on in '95. Okay. And, you know, I remember taking the test, and there was 3,000 of us. Mhmm. And that was just majority mail. This is during affirmative action.
[00:15:52] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:15:53] Unknown:
And there there was gonna be another couple of tests. So you're talking, like, almost 9,000 applicants for maybe 500 positions if. So, I mean, it was that's why it took six year six years to get on. I was on a waiting list for four years. Right. And I had to pay the bills. I got married young. You know, I was, like, 23 years old right out of college. And, you know, I I was a restaurant manager. I was a bartender, and I was a car salesman for four years. So, inevitably, you know, I get on the department, and people would still ask me to help them buy a car because I was on the other side of the desk for four years. Right. I knew how to do it.
And somebody came up to me and says, you know, you should really write a book about that. You know, how to buy a car. And I'm just like, are you kidding me? Did you see my English scores? I mean, I'm I'm dyslexic. I'm I'm I'm a train wreck behind a keyboard. What what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah. You you can, you know, just just try. And I'm like, okay. So I did, and it was a glorified PDF. That was my first book. Okay. And I called it I Never Wore Plaid, Insider Secrets from a Former Car Salesperson. Yeah. And then the tagline is how to buy a car without being taken for a ride. Nice. I wrote I wrote it under, a pen name because any kind of outside employment would have to be approved by the chief, and Yeah. He wouldn't understand this.
So he it's an automatic no. You know, pretty much everything was a no unless, you know, it was, like, working a brewer game or something like that. They they didn't yeah. So I'm just like, okay. I'm just gonna do it on the down low. So it's a funny story because a good buddy of mine knew a gal that had a New York agent. You know, she's big time published author. Hey. You know what? I'll give her your manuscript. I'm like, great. Mhmm. So I he does that. She calls me the next day. I love it. I'm gonna pitch it for you in New York. And I'm like, holy shit. Alright. I'm gonna be rich. You know, I'm going to international autos. I'm looking at the Porsches. You know? And I'm like, this is gonna be great. Life is awesome.
Then he calls me the next day, and he said, hey. Bad news. I'm like, what? So, yeah, I got into an argument with her last night, and I don't know how that plays out for you. And I'm like, alright. So I called her and I say, hey. Heard you guys had a TIF last night. I hope this doesn't interfere with our professional, you know, relationship. And she's like, oh, no. F you. I'm done. Okay. If you're a friend of his, I I already threw it in the garbage. And I'm like, back to the Camry. Alright. So I'm like, damn. And I'm like, I'm so dejected and whatever, but I started listening to podcasts. This is about when this is back in, like, two thousand eleven, two thousand ten. Mhmm. And there was some self publishing podcast. I didn't realize you could publish yourself.
You could self publish. So I threw it up on Amazon, horrible cover, bad editing, blah blah blah. And people actually bought it, and it wasn't my like, my mom or, like, my best friend. You know? It's like strangers are paying book, you know, paying for this. So fast forward, I wrote a few more books, and I started going to writer conferences. And, inevitably, when you're a cop, people just figure it out. They find you. Yeah. And I wasn't wearing, like, a T shirt or anything that's yeah. I'm wearing a cop T shirt now. But back then, I wasn't, you know, at these conferences. I just wanted to blend in. And they're gonna I have people ask me cop questions. You know? It's like, hey. I'm writing this story. You know? Would they need a warrant for that? Is this reasonable? You know? Blah blah blah. And they're all very nice about it, and I'm like, So somebody that knew a lot more about this stuff than I did approached me. He says, you should write a couple books or at least a book on police procedure for authors. And I'm like, okay. I'll give it a whirl. That's interesting. So I did. It was called Cops and Writers.
And from the academy to the street, then I wrote a second one, crime scenes and investigations. And it's specifically for crime writers Okay. Or people who are just curious about cop stuff. And they sold like crazy. Oh my gosh. I was just like, wow. I found a niche. I started a Facebook community to promote the books. K. And it started out with my editor, me, and a couple buddies. Now there's 8,300 people in there, and I wound up on the Wall Street Journal. They did a story about it. Wow. That's pretty awesome. Then I started the podcast to promote the books.
Okay. And that recently has just exploded. Cops and writers. You know, I kept it all the same. Yeah. I'm just interviewing mostly cops that have written a book. So now, you know, before I know it, I'm talking to Jack Harr. I'm talking to, Steve Murphy and Javier Pena that took down Pablo Escobar. Wow. You know, I'm getting I had some I have some really good guests, and I'm like, this came literally out of nowhere. It was all organic. It's crazy how that happens. Yeah. It's just it's nuts. So, yeah, that that's how I wound up writing. And then because of the podcast, there was a publisher that I interviewed, and he said, hey. Wanna write some books with me? And I'm like, yeah. Sure. What the hell? Why not? So I wrote four books with him.
And then my latest, The Good Caller, I self published. Nice. Nice. I I I actually have, an outline
[00:21:35] Unknown:
tucked away someplace that, I I was I was building in in the last few years of, of working for for New York City, and, I called it, Why I Wake Up Screaming My Years Working for New York. So so, I have I have it all tucked away, and I'm, I'm I'm debating whether or not I'm actually gonna do it. I've I figured I would do, in sections. So each section would be a different aspect of my career from uniform service as a patrol officer to supervisory services, then and then when I went to investigations and then ending up in operations. So, each section would have its own particular horror story, in in relation to it and explain. All I gotta say is just do it. Yeah. That probably will. Someday. Just
[00:22:21] Unknown:
no. Not someday. You know? It's like, here's here's my 2¢ worth for you. You know? It's like, try to write for start out with, like, fifteen minutes a day. Mhmm. Fifteen minutes. I don't care when, where, whatever. You got it. Fifteen minutes, that's probably about maybe a 100 words, you know, on Microsoft Word. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Mhmm. You know, just start waking up that part of your brain. Right. And you'll build on that. Interesting. You know, before you know it, you're gonna be like, hey. You know what? I gotta write I have to write a thousand words today.
And if you I mean, most novels are, like, sixty, seventy thousand words. Before you know it, in a couple months, you got a book. And even if it just takes a while, so what? And your first book isn't going to be great, just so you know. I mean, it can happen, but usually, it does not. Yeah. I And you're cutting your teeth. You know? It's like you're figuring it out. Kind of expect that though.
[00:23:21] Unknown:
Yep. Absolutely. You have to. You do you have to. So, so you retired from from the police department, as a as a supervisor. Correct? Yeah. I was a sergeant for seventeen years. Alright. And and did was it all patrol work, or did you work in any kind of Absolutely. I love patrol.
[00:23:38] Unknown:
I I wanted to be on the street. I didn't want anything else. I I was getting headhunted to work up at IED. Okay. And, thankfully, I knew a couple of people up there that I worked with when I was a copper. You know, my buddy calls me. You we used to be partners every now and then. Hey, Pat. You're you know, you're coming up here. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah. You're you're coming up to IED. And I'm just like, for sure. He says, oh, yeah. You're coming. So he was a sergeant. And at the time, I was a sergeant, so I called the lieutenant up there, and I worked with her as a cop. And I said, hey. Little bird told me that, you know, I'm coming up to, you know, the rat factory, and she's just like, you'll love it here, Pat. Oh my god. I I'm super flexible with hours. You know, if you want overtime, I'll make sure you I'm like, no. Absolutely not. It is needed. You have to have good people up there. Mhmm. But that ain't me. I'm not hardwired for it.
I mean, every now and then, as a street supervisor, obviously, you're taking complaints from people. Mhmm. You know, he did this. He did that. Blah blah blah. And sometimes you're called to help with IED. To more than one cop, unfortunately. And I've had to take cops' guns for him. I remember one time I called from a female detective that's up at IED, and she's arresting this cop or he's drunk off his ass. He had a hard he had a bad time with alcohol. And she's like, yeah. Could you go take his gun for me? And I'm like, excuse me? You're not coming with for this party? And then she's, I'll stay down here. And I'm like, alright. That's why you got such a bad reputation, lady. So I go upstairs with this super drunk cop who was, like, one minute at bawling. The other minute, he's punching a wall, and he's I'll get my gun for you. I'm like, no. No. No. No. No. I'll get it. Just tell me where it is. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll take care of it. Thank you. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, more than one situation like that.
[00:25:36] Unknown:
So, so in your years of supervising, and and, you know, doing investigation work and, you know, dealing with felonies and major felonies, how did all that shape the kind of stories that you tell today?
[00:25:49] Unknown:
You know what? There's no way I could block it. You know, it's funny. When I was writing those four I call it the Brew City Blues. It was kinda like Hill Street Blues, but or Blue Bloods set in Milwaukee. Okay. And it was loosely an outline of my career, you know, with all the crazy stuff that, you know, happened to me. And then the good collar is a little more on the fiction side, but that's also takes place in Milwaukee. My my poor wife and dog had to endure me. I would like Pete kicked into over double overdrive when I'm writing these books. Really? She my wife was like, you wake up just screaming.
And I'm like, I'm in a gunfight. You know, my gun doesn't work. You know? All the typical, you know, cop stuff. So, yeah, it it triggers something in my brain that, you know, you push away. Sure. You know, it's self preservation. But when you start regurgitating it on the keyboard,
[00:26:47] Unknown:
you know, it wakes it up. And you you don't know when it's gonna hit you. Oh, I know I know exactly what you're talking about. There there are a lot of things that that I've experienced over the years that, I don't really talk about. You know, I I try to avoid the subject. One of them when I moved when I moved down here to Texas, you know, the the the and people realized that I I I worked in law enforcement and and such. And the first usually, the first question I get is, well, were you there during, the World Trade Center attacks?
Well, no. I wasn't there at the exact moment. I had just gotten off duty, and I was on my way home when it happened, and I had to turn around and go back. And the towers were just a few blocks away from my command. So I was there, you know, every night for about six months doing on the pile, doing rescue recovery, doing building searches, and, you know, all that security posts and whatnot. And, you know, I don't really talk about it much. I don't go into detail. I don't tell people the things that I've seen and, you know, experience in that. Right. And, so I yeah. I know what you're saying. You you have those moments that, you know, it just hits you out of nowhere. You know, all of a sudden Absolutely. All of a sudden, just you could just have you have the the grandest all day, and all of a sudden, just one little thing will just trigger a memory.
And, and then you're it's like you're toast for the rest of the day, you know, at that point. It it's it's hard. Can be debilitating.
[00:28:15] Unknown:
And for me, you know, my therapy is working out. Yeah. Always has been. You know, it's I mean, I went through a horrible divorce, thirteen years ago, fourteen years ago. And, of course, you know, being a cop, you know, of course, I hit the bottle pretty hard. Yeah. You figure out, well, the answers aren't at the bottom of that bottle, so I just doubled down on the working out. That kept me sane. Yeah. Yeah. That and that's the key thing too, is you have to redirect. You have to find something else.
[00:28:41] Unknown:
I mean, I I did the whole bottle routine. You know, I just I just went through a divorce myself, three years ago. And, that that was that just brought back a lot of stuff. And, you know, I found myself Oh, yeah. I found myself going down that route again. But, you know, I started doing the podcast again. I I had done it before I started doing podcasts, and before they even called it podcast, they used to call it Internet radio. So I I started doing it, you know, years ago, back in, like, 2015, 2016. I took a break from it, then came down here, started up another podcast, did it for about two, maybe almost three years, put it aside, for a little bit, and just got to get a change of pace.
And then the idea to do this one came up, and I had no intention of it being this like this. I I originally planned on doing this just one day a week, just, you know, just to kind of vent, you know, that type of thing. Right. And, you know, have the occasional guest and and just, you know, do it whenever I felt like doing it. Now, all of a sudden, it's this is, three nights a week, live show, a Saturday show, a Sunday show, and I'm just, like, it's just tape. That's a ton of for people who don't realize, Joe, that's a ton of work. No, it is. Like, just a ton of work. It is. And, I'm I'm fortunate though. I'm blessed really. I have I I have people that that donate their time and their talent and help me do the stuff.
I have a producer. Her name is Angela. She is fantastic. Never met her face to face. I just talked to her on the phone every now and then. She Sure. She was listening to the show, and she volunteers her time and her talent. She helps me with the Wow. Booking guests and goes through emails and things like that. And we have, you know, we talk about, you know, next steps. And then I have, so I call her my producer, and then I have executive producers. You know, these are the folks that that donate, that donate money to the show. They're they're treasure. So I have it's you can donate your time, your talent, your treasure. Those those are the three t's that that we do. And, so they get they get these little perks and whatnot for doing it. But, they all contribute in some way, shape, or form. They all help me out. They're I have one friend of mine who lives a great friend. I've known him for many, many years. He lives up in Washington State, and, you know, we talk regularly.
He he came down here to visit, and he hung out with me here in the studio when when I redid the entire studio. And, he was on the show with me for a week, you know, did every night. So that was a lot of fun. You know, I got people to help me, but it is a lot of work though. It it absolutely is. And, and then of course, you know, you have things like, you know, technical problems that drive you that drive you crazy. You're like, I'm trying to Yep. Build something here, dude. You're killing me. It's killing me. But no, it's great. No. I'm not gonna dip it to a bottle tonight, though. Don't worry about it. I'm, you know Excellent. It's not I'm not gonna trip out with that. But, but what was your transition like going from, from law enforcement to to to to being an author to being a podcaster? What was that like for you?
[00:31:37] Unknown:
Well, I retired I I got on the job 01/16/1995. I raised my right hand, and I retired 01/16/2020. People are like, oh, it must have been, you know, COVID and George Floyd. I'm like, none of the above. Yeah. I I had my 25 in, and after I had close to twenty years on the job, I'm like, well, I know when I'm gonna pop smoke. If you wanna maximize your pension, you gotta do it at 25. Mhmm. The first few years are pretty lean, but, you know, I get a cola, and that helps quite a bit. But you have to build that up. Yeah. And, you know, and I wasn't, like, sitting in a rocking chair, you know, super old. I was I was 55.
Okay. You know? And police work is it's for the young, especially if you wanna be on the street and your heart's on the street. It ain't an old guy sport. It's a young guy sport. It's just all the bumps and bruises and the sleep deprivation
[00:32:37] Unknown:
and the stress. And, again, that ain't for old people Yeah. At all. And then I think it also there there comes a point where you've where if you really are honest with yourself, there there there comes a point, and I hope from my own experience too, where I I realized that, you know, I I started I started to I don't wanna say not care, but I I got to the point where it was like, you know, I I just didn't wanna be bothered with doing paperwork. I know it sounds sounds weird to most people, but you know what I'm you know what I'm talking about. So it's like Oh, yeah. I do know. So I would let I would let things slide, you know, that I that in my younger days, I wouldn't normally let slide. You know, I would just give a warning and say, I was just don't just stop, you know, just cut it out. Just go. Right. And, I realized at one point at at one point that, you know, I was turning I was turning an eye away from things that really I shouldn't be.
And I said, you know what? Someone's gonna get hurt. It's either gonna be my partner, it's gonna be myself, or somebody in the public, and I think it's time to step aside. And and that's and that's when it that's when I decided to to to get out of the uniform service. And I I went into investigations and then and eventually into operations. But, but, you know, it's it's it's one of those things that you it is. It's for someone who's it's it's for someone much younger, you know, like I don't It really is. Like, I'm I'm gonna be 55 this year. I don't I don't think I could put the uniform on again, do it again. I I was offered positions down here in Texas with the sheriff's department and and stuff. I I just no. I I can't. Yeah. The idea of having to go back to an academy again is just, you know.
[00:34:11] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, the first couple of months, you feel like, oh, I'm on vacation. Yeah. You know, this is really cool. But then COVID hit, and, you know, things started closing down. And I'm like, okay. Then all the George Floyd riots kicked into high gear. Yeah. You know, in Milwaukee, we had we had people trying to take over police districts with Molotov cocktails, the whole shooting. I remember I remember that. It was crazy ville. And I got survivor guilt like you would not like, you couldn't imagine. I was not a good person to be around. I I was not a good person to live with. And, again, like I said before, my therapy was going to the gym. Mhmm. The gym was closed. And I'm like, I was a fish out of water. And I'm I'm watching TV, like, eighteen hours a day. Yeah. You know, everything that's going on with these riots. And I see my guys out there working sixteen, twenty four hour days, and I'm not out there with them. Yeah. And I I felt like a shitheel. I felt horrible.
And my wife, finally, she's just like, you've been through riots. You've worked seventy two hours in a row. Mhmm. You've you've paid your dues. It's time for somebody else to do it. You've you've been rocked. You've been bottled. You've been shot at. You've had people try to kill you. Yeah. You know? So it's like, enough is enough. You know? A police department is designed so when it's time for Pat O'Donnell to ride off into the sunset, They're not closing shop tomorrow, you know, because you retired. Right. It's from the chief on down. If something happens to the chief and he's like, I don't wanna do this anymore, okay. We got we got this covered. Yeah. Exactly. And that's anybody. And, unfortunately, in our line of work, there are some that think they're so super awesome or special Mhmm. That the they think that the you know, if they leave, God forbid,
[00:36:08] Unknown:
you know, the wheels on the bus are just gonna stop rolling. Yeah. And that's not the way it is. Not at all. I I I know I know somebody that as you're telling the story, I know somebody
[00:36:17] Unknown:
that's Oh, every every cop can close their eyes and is like, oh, yeah. I oh, yeah. I know that guy. Right in my head. That can't let it go. It's like Yeah. Let go. Let go. You'll be okay. It's alright. Exactly. Exactly. Hey. So, so The Good Collar, that's actually your most recent work.
[00:36:34] Unknown:
Yes. So what was the inspiration behind that story?
[00:36:37] Unknown:
It was actually a dream, believe it or not. I dream really heavy, very vividly, like like, almost like, you know, movies or TV. I I have very and I remember a lot of my dreams. Mhmm. And either I keep a pad a a pad and a pencil or a pen next to my bed, or I I wake up, and I'll put it in the notes portion of my phone. And it's like, oh, hey. Oh, wow. That'd be a great, like, plot, you know, blah blah blah. And I just I woke up one morning after having a dream. It's like, I probably was watching Dexter. I used to watch Dexter a lot when that was on. Yeah. And I thought to myself, what if Dexter was the police chaplain?
[00:37:26] Unknown:
That's interesting. A cool twist. Yep. Yeah. That's that's pretty interesting.
[00:37:30] Unknown:
Everybody loves him. He's a great guy. Mhmm. Nobody's gonna suspect that he's a freaking serial killer vigil vigilante. So it it just started forming. And the more I wrote it, the more it came to life. Interesting. That's that's wild.
[00:37:48] Unknown:
And what is any aspect of that story from a real experience though? Or is that just strictly based on a dream?
[00:37:54] Unknown:
Mostly a dream, believe it or not. And then as you start writing, obviously, you know, like the police stuff, you know, that's all from, you know, from work, you know, from stuff that I've done Oh, sure. Whatever. You know? Explaining what an assembly is and, you know, and, of course, the main character is a sergeant. Go figure. You know? Yeah. Weird. Right? So, you know, that's in charge of a gang squad, and I had a gang squad for a little while and, you know, etcetera, etcetera. Okay. And, you know, you're pulling either consciously or subconsciously from all of your experiences that there's no getting around that. That. And I've had a lot of cool experiences, so it's it just started flowing. And then before I know it, I'm like, oh my god. This is really cool. You know? It's a mixture of if John Wick met the death wish with a little bit of Dexter and had a baby, and boom, there you go. That's great. I like that.
[00:38:46] Unknown:
That's that's great. So, now I know I know you also do consultations, right, with other crime writers, screenwriters. Yes. What are some of the biggest mistakes you try to help them to avoid?
[00:38:58] Unknown:
Well, you know, we only have, like, twenty minutes left. So Yeah. I mean, I there could be a whole show. Yeah. I know. I know. It's it's finding that balance of reality and making it palatable for your audience. So for example, you know, it's like, okay. Cool car chase. Most car chases last about anywhere from two or three minutes. Longest one I've ever been in was over an hour. Okay. And that's just unheard of. Yeah. Just unheard of. And, okay, you get into this chase, maybe you say it's five minutes. And, you know, back remember, I I started before body cameras, squad cameras. You know? It's like, you know, how fast are you going? Oh, 60 times two maybe. Yeah. But I'm not gonna tell the dispatcher that. You know? That kinda No. You can't.
No. And you have this big chase, blah blah blah. Get the bad guy. Well, now you're gonna be sitting down and doing, I don't know, six to eight hours of, paperwork. Mhmm. You know, obviously, you're not gonna have that in your book or your movie because people are gonna fall asleep. Sure. You know? Or, you know, oh, this guy, you know, he's got asthma. Well, we gotta take him to the hospital, get him medically cleared. That's gonna take a few hours. I mean, we have that saying of, you know, you catch them, you clean them. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. Something very similar to that. Yeah. Yeah. It's all fun and games until, you know, you gotta put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard. Now this is where the work starts or the aggravation. Like I said, oh, I've got asthma. Oh, I'm a diabetic. Oh, okay.
Off to the hospital, we go. Or he was banged up a little bit, you know, or what have you. And you're like, that's the thing. What people have to understand is when you mean in custody, that means you're responsible for their health and well-being as well. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that.
[00:40:56] Unknown:
Yes. They they think that in custody just means that you're okay. You're under arrest and you're going to jail. That's not what it means. No.
[00:41:02] Unknown:
Not at all. So yeah. But you still have to make it somewhat believable. One of my favorite crime shows is, Southland. Okay. That was a really good show. And and me and my buddies from work would be as, like, yeah. This is, like, spot on except for the fact that after you shoot somebody, you're not gonna be back in your squad car later eating donuts and smoking and joking. That's True. Yeah. Not gonna happen. You know? You're gonna be riding the pine for six months to a year sometimes. Easily. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's and you're gonna be sweating, and all kinds of horrible stuff is gonna be happening to you. Mhmm. And it could be the the most justified, you know, like, lethal force encounter, but it messes with you. It messes with your family. It messes, you know, your kids.
Everybody goes through it together, and it sucks. Nobody wants to go through that. But, you know, being a boss, I I was involved in seven of them as a boss. And the last two, I was a block away when they happened. So, I mean, it just it's crazy. But, you know, again, that's probably one of the biggest mistakes that I see, you know, along with, you know it's like, okay, guns. They don't have unlimited ammunition. I just I got a kick out of, you know, it's like somebody's shooting a, you know, a Remington eight seventy pump shotgun, and they've got, like, 50 rounds coming out of that bad weather.
How did that happen? And they or they're, like, racking, you know, the slide on the shotgun as they're, like, approaching, you know, like a bad guy in a building or something like that, and they're doing it, like, two or three times. And I'm like, the shell should be flying out of the ejector right now. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. You know? Or, you know, somebody gets shot and they fly, you know, 50 feet in the air. You know? It's like, no. The body crumbles after getting shot. Yeah. Yeah. It It might stumble or crumble. You don't go up, you know, again, you don't go through a plate glass window. You don't do I mean, but, hey, it's Hollywood. You know, that's Well, they have to do something to keep it entertaining, you know. Correct. And like I said before, that's that balance. Yeah.
[00:43:12] Unknown:
So you host, like I said, cops and writers podcast. You're a podcaster. You have this huge Facebook group that you, that you, maintain, for writers. What kind of conversations actually, take place in that type of space?
[00:43:26] Unknown:
In the Facebook group? Yeah. Yeah. Whew. You know, it just pretty much like I was just talking about, people ask about guns because it's an international group, and some of them have never even held a gun before. You know, there are some countries that have incredibly strict gun control laws. They've never held one, let alone fire a gun before. And they ask it. It's like, what kind of kick would a SIG, you know, p three twenty have when it's not firing it by itself? You know? Of course. You're firing it. And, you know, I wouldn't say, well, you know, you have to hold on to it, but it's not gonna come flying out of your hand, you know, or whatever. You know? That's so gun quest technical stuff, would I need a warrant, you know, to search this car?
You know? Or what happens, you know, when there's a fire? Does there a a state fire marshal? Do they come out immediately? You know? Who takes care of this? And, okay. This guy is fighting, you know. If I got shot one time in the leg, you know, could I keep on fighting? You know, just technical questions like that. A lot of that kind of stuff. So have have you seen,
[00:44:35] Unknown:
have you seen a shift in how people, perceive law enforcement now, through these storytelling platforms that you're with?
[00:44:43] Unknown:
Not really. Again, this is international.
[00:44:47] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:44:50] Unknown:
And I was talking to a British police police officer, and he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that we have guns on our hips. They have armed response units in England, and they have a very limited amount in Ireland. Mhmm. And there's a huge controversy right now in Ireland trying to figure out if they're gonna allow the police to carry a gun on duty. And, you know, for me, it's like, well, it's a no brainer. Yeah. Of course. You know, that'd be like a carpenter going to work without a hammer. Yeah. I I It's another tool on your belt. Honestly, when
[00:45:30] Unknown:
I I still carry now. When I when I leave the when I leave the house, if if I don't have it with me, I feel like there's something very, very important missing from, you know. Yeah. I I get that. I mean, as a matter of fact, it's Texas, Everybody's got a gun. Of course. I mean, I'm sitting here in the studio, and I got it sitting here right next to me. And I was Absolutely. Well, I wouldn't. See that.
[00:45:50] Unknown:
You know? There you go. So,
[00:45:52] Unknown:
you know, it's never far. It's it's always Sure. It's always close at hand. Actually, I wanted to ask you about this this incident that happened in New York City, the other day. You're familiar with it? The the the guy who just, walked down the street with, with an AR 15, walked into a to a office building and and just decided to to pop off?
[00:46:14] Unknown:
Oh my god. Yeah. It just illustrates that there's there's some wacky doodle people out there, man. And you just don't know what's going on in their brain. What I
[00:46:26] Unknown:
And, boy, it just, that's frightening. What I find fascinating about it though is coming from New York, knowing how strict New York is with firearms and especially within city limits, how this person was just walking down the street
[00:46:42] Unknown:
with this weapon out in the out in the open. And You would think it'd be a hundred nine one one calls immediately. Nothing. Holy shit. Nothing. This guy is walking around with it looked like a gold plated, like, AR, you know, 15. It looked like something that a gangster would be carrying. Yeah. Yeah. It's it it was the strangest thing, and and,
[00:46:59] Unknown:
you know, just just watching the reaction, you know, from politicians mostly. I don't I don't wanna get too political, you know, but, you have, you have all these politicians now trying to spin this thing into, well, this is why we need gun control. Well, you you you have the most gun controlled state in the entire country, for crying out loud. You know? And New York City is a gun free zone.
[00:47:22] Unknown:
It is. But what people fail to realize is you're more likely to get killed by a rock or scissors or a knife Yeah. Than you are with an AR 15, statistically. Mhmm. You know, they look big, they're scary, and they're they've been used in some very high profile stuff, you know, especially if it's like a school shooting or something like that. Oh my god. You know, it's this it's this machine gun, you know, blah blah blah. And it's like, no. It's not a machine gun. A lot more people are killed with pistols. A lot more. Yeah. But gun free zones and I mean, we could beat this to death, but the way it works is you could have all the the gun control laws in the world, but if you don't enforce them and enforce them vigorously, nothing's gonna change.
We have gun control laws. I mean, in the city of Milwaukee, if you're if you get caught toting a gun, you don't have a CCW or an HR two eighteen Mhmm. You'll get probation maybe. Now if they bump that up to, okay, five years in prison, no ifs, ands, or buts, that's without anything previous. Guess what would start happening? And, again, in the city, I've I've responded on shit. When I first started, we're a city of 600,000, and we would go through about we're close one year to 300 homicides and right around a thousand nonfatal shootings. So people are getting shot left and right. Yeah. But say, I shoot you, and even if I have a record, I might spend a year or two in prison, maybe.
It's a slap on the wrist. Yeah. Then guess what happens? They go out and do it all. You know? If I shoot you and you live and they prove that I did that, why not have a ten year minimal with no chance of parole? I swear. But there'd be a pain point, and that pain point, nobody wants to go down that road. You know, just I'll give you a quick example. I got a buddy that lives in Belfast. I was in Belfast on vacation. Mhmm. Long story. Nice. In 02/2019. And I said, hey. Let's go for a a pint, Liam. And he says, yeah. Sounds great. I'll pick you up. So he picks me up. We go to a bar or pub, and I've got a pint, and he's got this, like, little dinky, like, eight ounce glass. And I'm like, Liam, what are you doing? He says, oh, they don't mess around here. Says, if I get busted for OWI, he's like, they take my van.
I need my van to work. I'm like, they take your van. He says, oh, yeah. They'll take your car. They'll take your license. Like, I don't know for how long, but it was some crazy number. Wow. And they don't need probable cause to stop you. They have checkpoints there in Ireland in other countries Wow. Where it's like, hey. You know what? I'm just gonna stop you with no problem, no suspicion, no nothing.
[00:50:25] Unknown:
Wow.
[00:50:26] Unknown:
You can never get away with that here. So so guess what? Guess who doesn't drink and drive?
[00:50:32] Unknown:
That guy?
[00:50:33] Unknown:
Yep. Exactly. So that again, there would be some you'd have a lot of people in prison for a long time, but that ebb and flow would come to a point where it's like, okay. Yeah. If you wanna carry a pistol, you gotta be legal. Mhmm. Simple as that. And if you break the law, there's heavy consequences.
[00:50:57] Unknown:
Is, is is Milwaukee or or or Wisconsin itself a, constitutional carry kit state or no? No. Okay.
[00:51:06] Unknown:
It's not constitutional carry, but we do have open carry. Okay. You can open carry, and they just got CCW maybe about eight, nine years ago, thereabouts. And that was you know, one side was saying, oh my god. It's gonna be Dodge City. Everyone's gonna get shot up. And the Yeah. Side of the hour blah blah. And guess what? Almost nothing changed. Of course not. Because
[00:51:32] Unknown:
I I think the the only the only thing that really gun control does or or laws restricting gun control is just makes it easier for criminals to obtain the firearm and and to perpetrate the the act of violence on an unarmed person. Because, you know, most people are law abiding people, and they're and they're gonna follow the law. They're gonna follow the law, especially gun owners. Gun owners, I think, are the most responsible people, and I I I know I'm not trying to generalize it. I I there's good and bad everywhere, but I think people gun owners are probably the most responsible people there are because there is so much at stake. You know. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, so the the only thing you're doing is restricting, you know, the good guys.
Good people with the bean.
[00:52:18] Unknown:
I agree. And what was that incident? It was a couple days ago. It was that at a Walmart where a guy was on a stabbing spree? Yeah. And the guy who stopped him had had a CCW Mhmm. Held him at gunpoint until the cops got there. That's a perfect
[00:52:34] Unknown:
of a good guy with a gun Yeah. That stopped, you know, carnage. And it took the I think it took the police it took the police, I think, twenty minutes to get there. And he was able and he and he subdued he subdued the perpetrator in in less than two minutes.
[00:52:50] Unknown:
Yep. So just Think about what could have happened if the guy wasn't there with a gun. Absolutely. Simple as that. Absolutely.
[00:52:57] Unknown:
So, so if someone's listening today and they feel kinda stuck in their careers, or their retirement, what advice would you wanna give them?
[00:53:07] Unknown:
I guess, for me, you know, for most cops, you know, you're a servant. You were of service. And that never really leaves you, and it opens doors that you never thought would be opened before. What you're doing right now, Joe, you're you're you're providing a service. You're entertaining. You're informing. You know, you're providing a service. Mhmm. And that will lead to other things, if it hasn't already. You know, that's that's stay active. You know, keep your brain and your body active, and do hard things. Never stop doing hard things. Put yourself in an like, in uncomfortable positions. I mean, don't jump out of a bus. Don't, you know, jump out of an airplane without a parachute. Nothing stupid like that. But if you're at the gym, put that extra plate on there. See what happens.
You know,
[00:54:04] Unknown:
just challenge yourself. You gotta keep challenging yourself. That's something that very similar to what my dad would say all the time. My dad always say stuff like that. You know, don't don't settle for don't settle for mediocrity. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, always try always push yourself harder than than than what you think you can handle. Because you'll be surprised how You can handle more. Yeah. You'll be surprised how much you can handle. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So if you could partner with any crime writer past or present and co write a book, who would it be?
[00:54:33] Unknown:
Oh, boy. I I do like Michael Connelly. Okay. But I It's gotta be an Irish thing. I don't know. Yeah. Absolutely. But, you know, Joseph Wamba, you know, if I could go back in time and hang out with Joe, yeah, that'd be pretty freaking cool.
[00:54:49] Unknown:
Alright. Well, we're we're up on the hour already, and, you already answered. I had one question that I was gonna ask you too here, but, you already answered that one earlier, so I'm not gonna go and retread that. It's like, like George Patton says, you know, he said or he said, I should say, he's gone now. You know, I don't like to pay for the same real estate twice, so we're not gonna go back and and re re ask this to the question. But, why don't you tell us where we could, find out, more information about your books, your podcast, all the great work that you're doing online?
[00:55:21] Unknown:
Everything is cops and writers. My podcast, the Facebook group, my website is all cops and writers, and then the book, The Good Collar Group. There it is.
[00:55:32] Unknown:
Make the Pitch.
[00:55:34] Unknown:
There it is. Alright. That's available on I'm Amazon exclusive right now. Okay. Great.
[00:55:40] Unknown:
And, let's see. So, I think we pretty much covered everything here, my friend. Tell you what, I I really would like to talk to you outside the show at some point, so I'm gonna email you. I think I already sent you in in the in the pod match thing. I think you already have my number. So, when you get a chance, just shoot me a text or something, and I'll I'll reach out to you. I'd love to talk to you, share some stories, and and, Yeah. Absolutely. And pick the brain. No. That sounds great. Thank you so much for having me. Hey, this was great, brother. I I appreciate and God bless you. Thank you for your years of service. I I want to make sure I said that to you. And, you know, just, you know, keep doing what you're doing, man. You're doing great work. I really appreciate it. Alright. Thank you so much. Alright. Patrick O'Donnell, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much, brother. And, with that, we're gonna take take our, break here. And when we come back, we'll, connect up with our second hour guest. But in the meantime, folks, don't forget that this is a live show weeknights 7PM central time, Saturdays at three, Sundays at six. And, you could find us on, of course, all of your favorite podcast platforms like Apple, Spotify, and also on the modern podcast two point o apps like fountain.fm and podcast guru, pod verse, and so many more. So make sure you check us out there as well. Also, we we are streaming on Rumble. We don't do we don't do YouTube.
We don't do YouTube. Why? Because they already struck gave us a few strikes because we expressed an opinion that they did not like. So, we don't, we don't waste our time with YouTube. They can go pound sand for all I care. We're very happy here with Rumble. And, of course, don't forget to check out our sponsors, podhome.fm and Ezra Healing. And, we'll be back from this break here very very short very very so shortly, I should say. I'm messing up my English language here tonight. And, so, yeah. We'll be back. Stay with us. Don't go anywhere. Alright, folks.
Welcome back. This is the Joe Russo. First hour is in the books. I wanna say thank you very much to Patrick O'Donnell for spending that first hour with us. Hope you guys found that entertaining, to say the least. Nah. That was great. We had a great time. But technical problems aside, we had a good time. And, as I'm looking up here at the monitor, I see our feed is kind of wonky. So I'm not sure what's going on tonight. But, folks but, folks, second hour, we're gonna get started here here momentarily. But first, before we do that, just wanna talk to you a little bit about another one of our sponsors, Podhome. Podhome.fm.
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So podhome.fm. Podhome is our home for our audio feed. It is a fantastic platform. You need to try it out. $15.99 a month, and if you sign up today, you get thirty month thirty days free. Thirty months. Barry, you'd kill me. Thirty days free. So So check them out. Podhome.fm. That's podhome.fm. Alright. Now, second hour. We have a guest coming on here who has walked two seemingly opposite paths. Spending forty years as a TV executive while also being a devout evangelical Christian. Stuart Kellogg holds a degree in broadcast journalism from Syracuse and a master's from Wesley Biblical Seminary.
His life's work spans newsrooms, pulpits, classrooms, and now the front lines of the pro life movement. Stewart is the author of The Post COVID Church, an action plan to thrive, not just survive, and host of over 75 podcast episodes by the same name. Most recently, he launched Students in Action Building Pro Life Leaders, a movement equipping young people to engage meaningfully and courageously on one of the most emotional and high stakes issues of our time. He's also a Colson Fellow, a teacher, and a frequent speaker on worldview faith on worldview, faith, and media bias.
Folks like to welcome Stewart Kellogg to our show tonight. Stewart Kellogg, are you out there, sir? Stewart, are you out there? Alright. I see Stuart in the in the in the in the waiting room. Once again, my friends, the the joys of doing a live show. Alright. Now, while we wait for Stewart to, to come on in here, how about we talk a little bit about how you can help us out here with the show. Now, all technical glitches aside today, we are, doing the very best we can to and here he is. Alright. Stuart, got it straightened out? Gotta turn your mic on.
Turn your mic on. I can't hear you.
[01:05:03] Unknown:
Put my mic on. Golly. Alright. There you go. Sorry, Joe. No. You're fine. You're good. And Forty years of TV. It never happened.
[01:05:13] Unknown:
Well, look Until I come on your show. You should have you should have seen what happened at the start of this show. We had we had And I need to move over a little bit. Just a pinch. Yeah. Okay. On the split screen. Unless unless you don't want people to really see you, it may be Oh, there we go. I apologize. With with with all we had it all set up ahead of time and Well, with the way the the way the show has been engineer. Well, with the way the show has been running since the start of this today, you know, I I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't wanna show your face on it. So No. Not at all. I love listening to it, by the way. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I really do. So, so so, Stewart, so let's see. Usually, I like to ask a couple of quick warm up questions, kinda get you loose in the bullpen, you know? Right.
So what's something that most peep what's something most people don't know about you, but probably should know about you?
[01:05:58] Unknown:
I used to be a shoe salesman. Really?
[01:06:01] Unknown:
They still have those?
[01:06:03] Unknown:
My name is Kellogg. I'm related to the serial people.
[01:06:07] Unknown:
As I like to say, I'm related, but not close enough to do me any good. Well, I was gonna say I was gonna say, well, you know, I got a a couple of complaints then because, you know, Kellogg put out some of my favorite cereals, and I get boxes are getting smaller and smaller and smaller. The price is getting up and up and up. Well, we don't we don't get much for that. Another neat part that's connected to that, Joe, you'll see that,
[01:06:25] Unknown:
my daughter was miss Mississippi back in 02/2003.
[01:06:28] Unknown:
Congratulations.
[01:06:29] Unknown:
And, we got permission from Kellogg to mock up a special k cereal box with her picture on it with the, the crown and all. So that was pretty cool. That's awesome. That's great. That's and congratulations to her. That's that's fantastic. That was fun. So, alright then,
[01:06:47] Unknown:
what's your, what's your favorite? Your go to beverage to unwind at the end of the day?
[01:06:52] Unknown:
Yeah. Your your guests all have really, and you, have cool woods. And I was thinking, I said, I think he's gonna ask me this. Mhmm. This is going to be the least exciting of any of your guests. I doubt it. Green tea. That I've heard I've heard I've heard less exciting than that. Oh, okay. Alright. I love my green tea. It's good antioxidants. That's it. It is. I'm a stevia. I don't don't drink alcohol, but, that though I enjoyed ginger beer. And I I was on a cruise with my wife, and I said, I like ginger ale. And they said, we don't have any way of ginger beer. And I said, I don't drink alcohol. They said, no. No. It's soda. I had never had it. Oh, it's good. It is. I've I've had it, had it a couple of times. Ginger beer is wonderful, man. I love that. And maybe did you have it with something else? No. No. To make it a dark and stormy or something? No. No. No. No. No. It it not not that time, but,
[01:07:41] Unknown:
I do like to mix, I like to put some, some some Bombay Sapphire gin and, a fresh squeeze of lime, and top it off with the ginger ale over ice, which is very very good. The problem with it is is that it the ginger ale is kinda sweet with the lime, so you don't realize just how much you've had of it until you try to get up. Yeah. So So yeah. That that's the problem because it it's it's but it's very refreshing. Seriously, it is. I I know you don't drink, but, it is a very refreshing drink. It it kinda, you know, has a nice little In moderation. In moderation, of course. Yes. Absolutely. Got it. Yeah.
So, like, tonight, I like you probably heard already. So, I'm a bourbon guy. I like my bourbons. So he is. Tonight, I am drinking coffee, and I had some blue stuff that I was drinking that you didn't get to see. But,
[01:08:40] Unknown:
I've heard you talk about it. It sounds yeah. I I haven't gone deeper, but I heard you describe it, and I I was trying to get my head around it. It's quite good. Quite. So, today today, I was drinking, it's, it's my ultra methylene blue
[01:08:54] Unknown:
that, that I actually we actually have an affiliate link with the alex jones store dot com slash joe, so you can check it out for yourself. There's a link right there up on your screen. And, you can get yourself a bottle. It's excellent. I I so I I take, I drink it, once a day. Usually once a day. Sometimes, I feel like I need it more than once. But, I and tonight, I had it with just some sparkling water. Nothing nothing extravagant. And, it is phenomenal. I I love it. It's it's it has it affects everybody differently. So some people get this burst of energy, some people get this they feel like this, almost like an electrical tingling sensation and and throughout their bodies. I don't get any of that. What it does for me is it kinda, it kinda puts me to like this almost a very even meditative contemplative type mindset, mind frame.
Some people say it clears brain fog, does not clear brain fog for me. It does does the opposite sometimes. But people have varied reactions to it, and it but honestly, if you're if you've never taken this, never tried it, it's not a drug. It's it's it's it's a supplement. But, check with your doctor first before you take it because if you are on certain medications, like like antidepressants and things like that, it can have a negative, effect on you. So, so make sure you check with your doctor first. I don't wanna get anybody sick. And, honestly, I I take a lot of supplements through through that through that link myself. I wouldn't be I wouldn't be pushing it if I didn't try them. And they they work I take the Ultimate Turmeric. I take the, the Irish Sea Moss. I take the Methylene Blue. I I do the Shilajit and all that stuff. Great stuff. The supplements are fantastic, and, really good quality stuff. So, anybody interested, just the alex jones store dot com slash joe. 10% of your sales come right back here to the show and help us fund this magnificent disaster of a podcast that we have sometimes. I'm glad to be part of it. Yeah. Right. It's great to have you here. So, so so you you've worked in in in TV. You've worked in seminary and now in youth leadership. What's been the most surprising career pivot?
[01:11:17] Unknown:
The most surprising to me is I was on air for a while. In fact, because I was on air, it's how I met my wife. Thanks. I I was a reporter. She was a teacher. Just a story at her school. So that was the great thing. But the pivot came when I said I really I saw a ceiling for talent wise, but I really wanted to manage and lead. And so I said, let me get the worst job in the newsroom, which is assignment editor in a TV newsroom. It's deciding everything, and I pitched that. And so that was that was the big pivot that got me on the road, and then I I moved up through news management and a lot of different markets and then ended up in in station general management. That was the the most fun pivot. I was a news director in Dallas, was my last news director job, and went and became GM in Jackson, Mississippi for Hearst, Television. They bought us a couple years later what became Hearst Television and, just love running a station, and that was terrific. And and really enjoyed the engagement, in this case, with ABC. I I had a lot of, discussions from what we call flyover country. You know what that is. Of course. Yes. These guys are in in New York and LA, and we're in flyover country about how the rest of the country thinks.
And, I'm not sure it did any good, but but, I I enjoyed engaging with them about the zeitgeist, if you will, in those places versus the rest of of the world. And what I found too, this idea of an evangelical Christian cartoonist, I mean, they didn't know any. You know? So it was it's a great bishop field, so I enjoyed it in that way as well. Alright. So you you you spent decades in in mainstream media. You also walked
[01:13:04] Unknown:
very I I've been I checked out some of your, some of your podcasts. I checked out some of the shows that you've been on previously, and, you talk incredibly detailed and incredibly passionate about your Christian walk and your faith. But working in mainstream media for as long as you did and and and also with your Christian faith, how do those worlds intersect? Or or did they clash?
[01:13:28] Unknown:
There there were some some clashes, I had and and not with her. Hurst was a terrific company in the sense that, even, for example, my last ABC meeting. I mean, my boss's boss, so the head of the whole was there, and and I took on ABC for they were putting out a show that was backed by a virulent anti Christian. I just knew this fellow's writings. And so I stood up and go with David Duke. You know? Yeah. That that's where this guy was on the left versus the right. They didn't know how to answer. Finally, the head of the network came. I said, no. We wouldn't, and here's why. But this show, which was from a, you know, a strident pro gay, message, not that she you know, you're not gonna have characters. That's fine. But and the thought of who was behind it. And I say that to say, my boss and my boss's boss probably didn't do it with me, but they said, god bless you. I'm glad you did it. You are speaking for a part of the country that they didn't know. So those were the clashes. Had some internal, not not with Hearst, but, just some of the, you know, in engagement or thoughts. I can tell you on, programming, but I was given some, freedom.
There were some programs that I would not buy. I mean, the network had no no control over, but there were syndicated shows. And, and and I gave in this case, it was Hirsch to they said, we think it'll do ratings and all. And I said, I I don't want on the station, and I don't think it will be a plus for our image and our brand that we're trying to build as a stronger local news. And, I loved it that they gave, the freedom to make that call. Yeah. I was I was gonna say that. A good one. That I was gonna say that. So there's some conflicts, but but I also it was very important to me, and I'll just give you an example of something I I did not do. There's somebody that asked saying, you know, why don't you lead a bible study here? Well, I didn't. And I'll tell you what, because I'm the boss. And I didn't feel those who wouldn't, for example, be a part of it may think, am I gonna lose points and that sort of thing? And I I know there are people who have different views on it, but that was an example. I said, no. I I was fine in sharing my faith in what I did, but I was wasn't going to do that, for example. So, you know, they're they're lines, and I made them, and I think I could defend them in a way we would.
[01:15:59] Unknown:
And and the fact that that you worked for an organization that actually considered your opinion on these things before con before just flat out saying no, we're going forward with this. Mhmm. I mean, that's great. And that that shows a lot of respect also, for your convictions on those things. And so that that's that's huge. You don't get that a lot
[01:16:19] Unknown:
No. Unfortunately. In the media. And and I gotta tell you, I just love to, working for Hearst. It's just a a class two feet inbounds. I mean, there are examples of where our company turned ourselves in because there was a violation that no the FCC would never have found, and it cost us. And I was just so proud of, David Barrett at the time running the company. I said, man, there there it is. I mean, it cost us oversight. It cost us a fine you know, that's a big deal. It would never have been found, but we did it. So that was an example. He used the term football term, two feet in balance. Don't even make it close. So I gotcha. So that helped because it reinforced it, and that's not always the case in our business or any other business. Yeah. And I and I understand exactly where you're coming from with that. So, so what led you to step into into seminary and Christian teaching after after working in broadcasting for a lifetime, basically? Well, it was it was in I was brought up, I call it functionally Unitarian.
We we went to church, but it was a a mainline Presbyterian Northern church, and then moved to Alabama. Okay. Syracuse, New York to Mobile, Alabama, the heart of the Bible Belt. And people talking about relationship and trusting in Christ, and I thought of him. Yes. He's part of the Bible. We talk about him twice a year, but what's the and that just drew me in. And, and I do talk about it. You I'm sure you've heard me talk about that spring day in 1978 in my apartment on my knees saying I trust you, Christ, to turn my life to you. So that was that step, but it was really as I moved along and we moved to a lot of places, finally going in Mississippi and being part of small groups, being part of a little more intense, and then connecting with a fellow who did, doctor Matt Friedman, who had who did commentary. We had a liberal and a conservative that and he was the conservative that did a wonderful part of the the news, and he was seminary, professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary. I was at a Methodist church. I hear about this John Wesley guy. Yeah. And I said, hey, man. Do you have some books? He brought me about seven or nine books of them, and it just got me. And then he said, hey. Why don't you try out seminary? And my wife looked at me like, are you gonna become a minister? I said, I'm too impatient for that, but I wanna learn. And so the and it was a it was six years. It was nights and weekends, took a long time. You know, sixty hour masters.
But and then opening my eyes that next year, studying under Chuck Colson. And a lot of your listeners know and some don't, who are a little younger, but Chuck Colson, he was, worked for president. Nixon was his hatchet man That's right. And, came to Christ right before serving prison and then started prison fellowship and then got into the Christian worldview saying these these jails will continue to be filled up if we don't change people's hearts and how they look at the whole world. And so I love
[01:19:16] Unknown:
engaging with Christian worldview. Which So that that's how all those came together. Yeah. Which is which is absolutely true. I mean, look, I you know, my testimony is very simply this, you know, I I grew up in a predominantly Roman Catholic family. My uncle, who I idolized, he was the first in our family to leave the Catholic church and go off into another denomination. I'm not gonna say which one he went to because I I've come to learn a few things about that that that trouble me greatly. And, I and I don't even think he still practices in that in that particular denomination anymore.
But he but he went in full bore. He went to bible school. He went to seminary. Became a pastor for that, that denomination. And I idolized my uncle growing up. And then, so, what he would do is he would come home from from seminary and, on his breaks, and he would bring all his textbooks, and he would leave them from the previous semesters. And he would leave them there, and and I would read them. And I'm maybe eight years old, 10 years old, in that range, 12 years old. And what he would also do is he would take my Catholic catechism books, and he would rewrite them. So so I would I would get to catechism class, and and I would open up my book, and there's a big red x through the through pages, and with stapled little notes attached to it saying, this is not how it happened, and then he rewrote it. And, of course, you know, I would get in trouble for that.
But, but but the things they taught me stayed with me, and I I became very, very much of a of a thorn in the side to, some folks at at the at the church. To the so much so to the point that when, when I was going to make communion, my first communion, and and the priest said, you have to come into confession and and confess your sins. I said, why? What do I have to tell you for? And, you know, he didn't let the conversation go beyond that too much. He just basically took me by the arm, dragged me outside, handed me my mother, and said, we don't need his kind here. And, my mom was like, okay fine. He doesn't have to come back here again. And, that was it. And, I kinda branched off on my own, but I I looked up to my uncle so much and, I followed him in everything he did. And then, I asked him one time. I said, you know, uncle Joe? His name is Joe too. I said, uncle Joe. I said, I wanna I wanna join your church. I wanna be what you are. He goes, no, you don't.
[01:21:43] Unknown:
I was like, what?
[01:21:44] Unknown:
He knew too much. Yeah. At that point, yeah. I think I think it was starting to turn at that point. And, he was like, no, you don't. It's not for you. You don't wanna do this. Okay? And then, so I cut that kinda left me in the lurch, and I just kinda went about my life from that point on going forward, believing what I wanted to I used to tell people I'm the Pope of the Worldwide Church of Joe. You know? Yeah. I I believe what I believe. It's a little dangerous, but I Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, certainly is. It certainly isn't until, until, February. The, in, like, June 2000, I got reassigned to a new command.
And, I knew the the commanding officer there, and, he he was an academy instructor when I went through the academy. And, so I met with him before I started my assignments, and and and he said to me, Joe, I'm glad you're here. And he goes he goes, I need you on the overnights. Is that is it are you okay with that? Yeah. I'm fine. That's that's that's good. He goes, okay. Great. He goes, but, unfortunately, it's your turn. My turn for what? You have to ride with Gail. Okay. Who's Gail? Officer Gail? Who's Gail? I don't I don't wanna say because, well, she's one of those born again Christian types. She's gonna talk your ear off all night long. Everybody else has had to sit through it. Now it's your turn. I was like, okay. I I I can handle this. You know, I'm good. I'm pretty secure in what I believe and don't believe. I'm good. You know? And, man, we first night, I I I walked out of the locker room. She came walking out of the female locker room, and she looked at me and she goes, are you saved?
I'm like, not now. Okay? I'm just not in the mood for this. It's my first overnight in a long time. Let's not do it. She goes, no. We're gonna talk about this. And the whole night, eight hours in that patrol car. Eight hours. All we did was argue. And I don't mean argue like like fight bickering. Debate. You know, argue. Yeah. So, and that went on for a while, and then, one day she said to me, she goes, hey, there's this Christian radio station, you know, you might like it. It's, she gave me the call sign for it. I was like, okay, I'll check it out. So I would listen to it on the way home, and I would hear guys like J Vernon McGee, and and and guys like that. And I'm listening to this man preach and teach, and I'm like, this is so relevant to me in my life right now, not knowing that J. Vernon McGee has been long since long since gone. You know, he's he's been home with the Lord for a long time at that point.
And I'm like, you know, it's just so relevant to me, but it sparked something. Got to my house, and I went into my attic, and I started tearing boxes apart looking for my bible. And, you know, my wife at the time, she was like, you have a bible? I'm like, yes, I have a bible. And you're tearing the whole place apart. Somewhere. Yeah. And I found this old dog eared, you know, bible that that my uncle had gotten me when I was eight years old. And I found that thing, and I started going through it, and I started doing, like, bible studies and just teaching myself. And one night, I decided it was a Sunday night. I said, you know what? I always listen to the same traffic reports, always the same mess getting into the city. So let me just see what's on that Christian station tonight.
So I put it on and there was a guy in there, and I'm I'm giving you the Reader's Digest version of of the whole thing. So I so I hear this guy preaching, and he's teaching a message on hell and who's going there. And, I'm sitting there in traffic, and I'm listening to this, and it just seems like at the end of every sentence, I heard that little voice in the back of the head said, I'm talking to you, Joe. This is for you. You know? And it literally scared the hell out of me. So I, I wrote down the phone number. It was one of those call in shows. You were able to, you know, call up, ask questions and stuff. Like, he would stop preaching, teaching whatever he was talking about, answer your questions, get right back to the lesson. But I chickened out. I didn't do it. I didn't call. I waited. I looked him up online, and, did some research on the on the church first and and all that. And I was like, okay. I read over some of that. I could agree with that. I could agree with this and this and this.
I called him. And it must have sounded like an idiot when I called, Hey. I heard you on the radio. Yeah. But, man, he he he called me back. We were on the we stayed on the phone for for almost an hour. And he invited me to church, and I was like, well, I'm not coming to church because like, while I walk into your building, it's gonna fall down. So let's how about I come to your office first? I was like, well, we don't have a church of our own. We we rent space at a community school in in in Lower Manhattan. I was like, oh, really? Where? And he told me where it was and I was like, you're kidding me. So, my I My job is right across the street from you guys, basically. It's like a block away. So, we met. Decided to meet up for to have dinner before work one night, and I met him, and we sat down, and we started talking, and I took out this had this big backpack loaded with every book that I could stuff into there. And I took it, and I dumped it out on the table at the restaurant, and I was like, this is what I'm studying. And he looked at it.
Okay. He just pushed it all off the table, took out his King James Bible, put it on the table, said, this is what you need, not that. And I was like, okay. I'm hooked. Right there. I'm done. You know, nobody ever spoke to me like that. So I was like, okay. Teach. And he just took me down. I'm sure you're familiar with the Romans Road. So we we, you know, he started giving me the gospel and and, looking at but I'm looking at the clock and like, man, I gotta get to work. You know? So so he walks back with me and he's like, do you have five more minutes? Just like, I just wanna show you just a couple of quick things. Yeah. Okay. Sure. We went out to this pier. It's Pier 34 off the off off of Canal Street and West Street. It's the third bench off the front of the front gate.
Sat down on that bench. Every distraction you can possibly imagine was taking place. I had some guy in a bike riding around circles around. It's all in his book by the way. It's it's it's riding in circles around us, cursing at us, spitting at us, you know, calling us all kinds of names and and all that stuff. And we're just, you know, focused in this. And my law enforcement experience is like, I'm looking at this guy as a threat, you know, as a possible threat. And I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do, but he's he's going through the gospel with me. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this guy hit something on the pier that made him flip over his handlebars, and actually literally crack his skull open.
And, so more distractions. Long story short, the ambulance shows up. I'm trying to direct the scene, that's what I do. You know, I'm trying to direct the whole scene here, and and the pastor, he just very gently just tapped me on the on the elbow. He pulled me away. He was like, what we're doing is more important than what they're doing. He said, they're they're trying to save his life. He goes, I'm trying to save your soul. Wow. So I was like, okay. You know, I just kinda walked away. And we prayed for the guy, and, right there on that period, 07/20/2000, I got down on my knees. I I asked Jesus Christ to save me. I told him what a rotten, low down, dirty, filthy sinner I am, and, and he saved me. And I knew I was saved. At that moment, I I don't I couldn't explain it to you. I couldn't tell you what exactly happened, but I just knew that there was something different. I knew that I was saved. I knew I was forgiven.
And when I went to work that night, my partner, Gail, comes walking out of the locker room, and she looks at me and she doesn't say anything. She just looks at me. She goes, you got saved. Like she point right at me and I was like Wow. I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, you got saved. I'm like, but I don't understand what you're talking about. She goes, don't don't don't let the devil get in there already. You got saved. She goes, it's all over your face. You're glowing. You look different. You're different. You got saved. And I was like, yeah, I did. You know, it was a great night. And, you know, I've been I've been I've been walking with the Lord since since 07/20/2000. Had my good times, my bad times, had my ups and my downs, went all kinds of stuff. But one thing I know is that I know Jesus Christ as my savior. And, and I know that he he died for me on the cross. He he paid for my sins. He he died. He was buried. He rose again the third day, which is the which is the gospel message right there. First Corinthians chapter 15. So, you know, it's, you know, so so it's it's it's an incredible life when you really think about it. And somebody just text me and said shut up and let him speak.
So
[01:29:40] Unknown:
so okay. Alright. Alright. I'll shut up now. Alright. I love your story. Yeah. It's a it's a lot. It's from, you know, it's, you know, Jesus didn't come to make sick man well. He came to make dead man alive. That's right. And that's your story. Amen. Amen. Amen.
[01:29:56] Unknown:
And, I went to bible school. I, you know, I studied the bible. I studied under some some really good men and learned an awful lot. And, I served as an associate pastor of a little independent baptist church up in New York for a little while. When the senior pastor was sick, he asked me to step in and I I did that for him. And, you know, I I've taught bible studies. I I I have a bible study I had a bible study podcast that I was doing for about two or three years, and my Sunday show was a Bible study show. Although, I've, you know, my my my the folks that watch haven't really been getting Bible the last couple of shows because we've been talking about America's Christian heritage. So American history. Yeah. The history. I thought it was fascinating. Oh, they did? And guess what? They don't get taught that in public school. No. They don't. No. No. Not at all. Yeah. That was yeah. That that fasting the yeah. Where where the foundation is. Absolutely. So this this coming Sunday here's a plug. This coming Sunday, we'll be talking about the second amendment. So there will be some bible in this. We're gonna talk about how God is pro gun.
And, we'll we'll we'll have a good conversation about that. So, alright. Enough about me. So what inspired you to launch students in action, building pro life leaders?
[01:31:02] Unknown:
How, I had finished and you mentioned thank you for mentioning the post COVID church. I I started that in the middle of COVID. I was watching churches, some I call turtle churches, hunkering down and just waiting for it to end, and others were leaning in saying, here we are. This is what we're for. And it was a fascinating and so I wrote about it, blogged, did the podcast, and and, videos, and then ended up with the book by the '23, so almost two years ago. I was looking at the numbers as as we do and and sensing you know, I've done 75 podcasts. I I was looking at the sales numbers that and my wife, Beth, as you know, wives tend to cut through the fog, as you mentioned, and and get to it. She said, Stu, people are sick of anything with the word COVID in
[01:31:53] Unknown:
it That's right. By 2023.
[01:31:54] Unknown:
You know? So I said, you're right. And so I was, cutting the grass, and we still cut the grass as you know, down south here in November. And Ohio had just voted. So they were it was now o for seven since Roe got overturned. Ohio voted pretty red state to put abortion rights in the custody. That was o for seven for pro lifers. And I was thinking through my final podcast and, blog and organizing it, and I sensed the Lord. Didn't hear the voice, but I sensed him saying, what are you doing? K. And I just love telling the story. I I tell you what Beth and I give to the pregnancy center, and, I taught I teach about it. And and I sensed him saying, what are you doing?
And finished the lawn, went in, filled out a very long in-depth application to to work at a pregnancy center, which I do, women's care medical center here down. I live right on the Gulf Of Mexico, has four offices, and I am a male advocate. It it took a lot of training and and, discipleship, but I'm now on my own. And so about a third of the women who come in come in with the father, so I I deal with them. Okay. And I was sharing this story with a a friend, Mark McCreary, who's in my small group that Friday morning, said, look. You're shutting down the other you love to write. You love to do it. Why don't you put a program together for students?
This pro life, it's it's a loser. It's a political loser. He's very much he he worked for mayor Giuliani, in fact, back back in New York. I mean, he's so very savvy in in politics, and he's absolutely right. Pro life is a political loser. We've gone from, you know, a pro life, pro choice options in our political party to now pro abortion, pro choice. I mean, just reality. And Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. Said these students need to know it, and so that was my calling and put together this project, students in action building pro life leaders, with teaching modules and ideas on hands on to work with a pregnancy center. Ran it as a pilot at my church with, eight students.
Started it almost exactly a year ago. Ran that project. My wife, Beth, did the hands on projects. So they learned about worldview. They learned about truth, and abortion and the idea of Imago Dei all made in the image of God. So biblically based, but also and then finally, how to defend the position, how to engage, how to ask questions, and the frequent what you'll hear from pro choice folks and how to engage in that sort. And then they worked, hands on. They they did a tour of of the medical center, met a woman who had an abortion as a teenager Okay. And now works with women in in the trauma. It always comes couple decades later.
And, so now I am putting it out nationally, and it's it's all there for folks to look at at at the website, prolifeleaders.net, where all the material is there for folks to look at and, and see and use. So I just feel this call that especially the youth need to
[01:35:09] Unknown:
understand this and stand up for life because we're turning into more and more culture of death in America. That's my I agree with you. And, you kinda you kinda answered my next question. I was gonna ask you why you why you think that this generation coming up needs that type of training, and support when it comes to the life issue.
[01:35:27] Unknown:
Yeah. Because the church and, you know, I bet your church and my church, evangelical churches, they'll check the box. We're pro life. Mhmm. And and we'll talk about it in January Yeah. And maybe one other, but it's not in the DNA. And and I don't when we talk about we are to be disciples, is there any more when you're bringing folks to Christ and trust in Christ? Is life is there anything more important than life, especially young life? And I believe a culture, a government, it's one of its primary issues is protecting the young and the most vulnerable.
[01:36:05] Unknown:
Alright.
[01:36:05] Unknown:
I just feel that's so important how a how a culture treats its young. And you look when the Christians started in Rome, what did Rome do to the young? If you didn't if you didn't want that, bro, you put it on the garbage dump. Right. Literally, that put it on the gar and these weird Christian people were taking babies off the garbage dump and raising them. I mean, that's that's how far we go. And I just think it's not, it's not thought about enough even and I'm talking in the evangelical churches, the pro life. It's not thought a lot. It's not taught. People don't know beyond saying, well, I don't think it's right. Well, as I talk about, the the high school senior, you know, goes to the University of Alabama or University of Texas and takes their first philosophy class and their head blows up because they haven't been challenged this way because they'll they've left the bubble, and they've gotta be prepared for it to engage. And and they have to have the tools, which is what this project provides. I'm taking that excuse away from churches. Well, what do we teach? Well, here it is, and it doesn't cost you anything.
And it's it's the and you can look at it on the website. It's not all my ideas. I put it all together. I'm quoting the very best pro life leaders in America, their thoughts, putting it together in a in a way,
[01:37:20] Unknown:
with PowerPoint and videos and in ways where you can literally get it out of the box and go and teach it. Just be committed to do it and do the hand and and ideas on hands on projects. Yeah. So when when you get critics that come along and and and they start saying that, you know, pro life centers are meet are are misleading, they're harmful, how do you respond to that? What do you what do you how are you preparing the the the the the younger generation to respond to that?
[01:37:45] Unknown:
Well, ignorance is dangerous. And so when senator Warren says have you ever been in one? Okay. I I can tell you and, again, I'm trained to deal with it. We and and we are our goal, obviously, is life. But when we sit and I sit with the men, the women sit with the women, we just lay out facts. Mhmm. We lay out facts about parenting, about adoption, and about abortion. Facts. How how they're done, what's available. It is facts. And that's how we get the trust. That's how we get the trust. And we also, though one of the complaints, you probably heard this, Joe. And I think in the early eighties, it would there's some validity. Yeah. You care about the baby until it's born. And I think there was something to that, but I can tell you the centers, ours, I teach parenting classes. We do parenting classes. We connect them to support outside.
We engage them after the baby's born. So and I think the church needs to to do more of that as well. I I agree with you. But I think that that argument is so specious, and and it it comes out of ignorance. And I and I don't say that kindly, and I should probably say it more kind. Come and come and look. Come and look. Come and be a part of it. But it has gotten to the point, to to your point, Joe, where in California, I mean, they are trying their their attorney general, Bonfa, is suing to keep pregnancy centers in California from telling clients that there is a abortion pill reversal regimen.
[01:39:23] Unknown:
Really?
[01:39:24] Unknown:
And so what's happening now, even in red states like Alabama, is the pills are being sent in. In fact, there's a group Wall Street Journal did this story a couple months ago. There's a pill packing party group in Boston, and they gleefully sit around and put abortion pills and send them to red states. Okay? So you've got that going on. But the upside is that after you take the first pill, which starves the baby, if within twenty four hours or so, you can reverse it by by putting in progesterone, and and there is a procedure to do that. We just had our first baby in our county born after abortion pill reversal. The woman took the first pill. It's a two pill regimen. The second pill aborts the baby. You have to wait forty eight hours. And after she took the pill, guilt wracked her. She called. Our doctor got with her, and the baby was just born two months ago. Oh, praise the lord.
And it and so what California is doing is trying to make it illegal to tell the clients about that. Okay. If you're pro choice, we can have that discussion. But are you that anti choice and pro abortion that you don't want women to know that if they change their mind, if their choice is I've made a mistake, we can't tell them that there's a way? So that's where the culture is, and
[01:40:51] Unknown:
that's where we are. And it's it's not only a cultural, it's a spiritual battle also. Oh. It is.
[01:40:58] Unknown:
Amen. It
[01:41:00] Unknown:
You know, you I'm trying to figure out how I could phrase it. You you you you look back into history of this, go back to the old testament. Those those, those those pagan heathen religions that worshiped Moloch and Baal and and such, that was a core That was a centerpiece of their worship was the sacrifice of children, and I and I see I see that parallel so strong in in this in this death movement. And, unfortunately, I I know it's mostly, you know, on the left, but unfortunately, on the right too. There's there's there's plenty of on the right that that kind of embrace that as well, you know. It it it's to me, I don't understand. I'm I'm I still try to wrap my head around it. Why?
You know, if what is the obsession with with with with abortion? Why is it so why is it such a a sticking point in the with the left, especially. It's it's just Yeah. It's just death, and I I I just don't understand it.
[01:42:13] Unknown:
Remember the old mega legal, safe, and rare? Yeah. Remember that president Clinton? Yeah. I remember that. And it's totally turned on its head. And you look at and you talk about evil the morning after pill, which is part of the process now. I mean, the company that developed that is it's an offshoot of the IB Farben company. And you know what they made in Germany eighty years ago? They made the gas for the concentration camps. Jeez. K? So that company's offshoot developed this. And Man. Here's one of the things, Joe, when you talk about a spiritual and and I look at it, these they are caught in a spiritual battle, And part of it is realizing and never forgetting, and this is part of our our teaching process, is what is it?
My body, my what is it we're talking about? It's a human being. That's right. The DNA of of a fertilized egg is the same as the DNA when that child turns 80 years old. Yeah. It's a human being. And that is where the demonic forces really work to take your eye off the fact that what we're talking about is innocent human life. Yeah. I it's, you know,
[01:43:34] Unknown:
we we don't have as as a created being, as as as as a creation of God, we don't have it. We don't have the right. Let me go let me go this way. We don't have the right to take innocent life. Innocent life. Alright. So, you know, people talk about, you know, well, you know, we we execute, you know, violent criminal murders and all of a sudden. Yeah. Because they because God set up a system of jurisprudence, where these people have been found guilty of committing this crime, and they And God instituted government to execute those things. The those those points of law.
And so, if someone has been convicted of of a capital crime and they're and they're going to be executed for it, that's that's fine. That that is biblical. But we don't have the right to take innocent life. Only God has the right to take innocent life. So so I So so again, it's a it's a spiritual thing that we're struggling with, and it it's and and unless they have a spiritual awakening to to the sanctity of life, there's there's really no hope for them.
[01:44:58] Unknown:
But there is, and it's interesting. I was just at a recent, meeting Mississippi pro life groups. Yeah. There was fascinating. One of the breakout groups, there there is an an atheist for life. And she taught, and she she walked away from her Catholic faith. She is an absolute atheist, but she is an ardent pro life. Really? And it was I just That's rare. I wanted to get into the engagement, you know, but it was a short we just wanted to hear. But that's and she went to Berkeley and and all this, but her feeling is, okay. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in anything. I can't see, feel, or touch, you know, that sort of thing. But that's a human being. Now my argument to her would, what's wrong with killing it if there's no moral law? But Yeah. Anyway That's a good point. But her point too is that the vast majority of pro choicers, they are, but, boy, there's a a chance to engage. And that's one of the powerful parts of the sonograms.
Mhmm. And they are so good. And my daughter was a baby. She's I won't say her age, but it's several decades. Okay? A long time ago. And when I saw the sonogram, it was a little I I was excited, but I couldn't tell what it is. Well, the new ones, we're talking weeks in. You can see a heartbeat. Yeah. Yeah. It's so much more detail. That's life. That is an amazing impact on the moms. Yeah. Of course it is. Amazing. And that's why the pro abortion I wouldn't even say pro choice. The pro abortion don't want those. Pro death is what they are. Yeah. Why do you wanna see that? You know, well, because it's life.
[01:46:38] Unknown:
So since since Roe v Wade was overturned, source I saw a statistic that's that indicate that abortions actually have increased Yes. In The US. Why do you think that's happening?
[01:46:49] Unknown:
Yeah. It's and the numbers and it is. It it's gone just in a couple years from a little over 600,000 to 1,100,000. And so and those are official ones. Now here's the deal. There is a black market, and a DIY abortion with the the pills that aren't even counted. So it's actually much much more than that. I think a couple of things. One, the the idea that if there's nothing greater than I if there's not a moral law that would keep me from doing it and and self is the most important thing, right, individual, that's all that matters is me and what makes me happy, and that has infiltrated the church as well, then if that's a problem or if that's an issue or if I don't have support, then that's an easy decision. So I think that's probably the biggest reason.
And the other is the ease. You know, you used to have to go somewhere, and then there might be protesters. And in a in a state like Mississippi until it closed down, there was only one in the entire state, and you had to do it. Well, now you just do it at home. Mhmm. And you don't even have to have a doctor's. And and the last administration wiped out all these protections, and it's interesting. I think some will be put back in because you used to have to, you're supposed to have to have a prescription now, but you'd have to do it with a doctor because it's hemorrhaging. And and what's interesting, Joe, is the the ethics in public policy center came out just a couple months ago, and they looked at over 800 insurance claims for folks who had taken abortion pills. Mhmm. And what they found was the the rate of serious adverse effects, which is lots of things, was two times higher than the FDA said.
How much higher? When they when they took away those restrictions and let it let it go through. 22 times. The FDA said point five. Reality was more than ten percent. And also, the FDA started only counting deaths, not hemorrhaging and and all these sorts of things. So so a lot of it too is a little bait and switch. Have you heard that you see a meme, the abortion pills is is safer than Tylenol. Where does that come how can anyone think that? I've seen the meme you're talking about. Yeah. No. That's Isn't that isn't that nuts? But people, if you wanna believe it, you'll believe it. So and, again, we see even just politically again, we're at about, 75% of of Americans believe abortion should be legal at some point. So we are a pro abortion, and, again, it's a political loser in most places. Yeah. And so, that's all combining and which is why I put this project together. We we gotta get the youth and it's targeted for high school and college kids. Let's get them informed so they can be engaged and make a difference because the adults ain't doing it real well. No. That's I'm sorry to say. In the evangelical church. Oh, no. You're absolutely right. Absolutely right. And and just to just to just to kinda back up into the political side of the whole thing too. You know, it wasn't
[01:50:04] Unknown:
the matter that that Roe v Wade was overturned. It it it was or or or abortion was made illegal. It's the matter was returned to the states to decide. Yep. It was returned to the people of those states to determine whether or not they want to, permit this in their state. So, so all these people that run around screaming, well, you know, my right to jail, you you take away taken away my rights and so on. No. It's it's been returned to the states to decide. So
[01:50:33] Unknown:
I just I need needed to throw that out there because it it's that that bugs me when people say that, you know. Well and and Ginsburg, who is one of the most pro abortion jurors ever, publicly stated Roe was horribly decided. She said it was horribly. In fact, her quote is, it was egregiously wrong from the start. I mean, from a legal perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that she said that too. I'd I I remember seeing that. Crazy.
[01:51:03] Unknown:
So, obviously, the abortion debate's really emotionally charged, to say the least. What would you say to someone who's sitting on the fence of it? Or unsure about what to believe about it?
[01:51:16] Unknown:
So I would and and I think it it does depend. I think if they're in the faith, it's it's a little easier because you can can talk about God, and we're made in the image of God. My preference, and I get some pushback on this, but but for those who are not in the faith, we can talk about this and never mention the Bible. Now the goal is we'll we'll get there. That's right. But Chuck Olsen used to tell us, we've gotta be prepared because if you just say, well, because the Bible says it and they say, I don't believe in the Bible. What else you got? So so part of it is, for example, I mentioned the DNA of of the fertilized egg. It is a human being Alright. From the beginning.
That's something to talk what what are we what clump of cells. It it's a human being. Maybe it's somebody here's know that you you ask, are you in favor of late term abort a day before the baby's born? Oh, heavens. No. God, no. Okay. Let's go back. What about eight month? No. No. No. Three months, the I'm okay. What's the difference? You know? It's asking questions. What is the well, it's not viable, but is it a human being? So it's those kind of questions to to get them thinking about that. Yeah. That that's What it is we're talking about to get them off this body and choice, those those are assertions. And here, we're talking about arguments, if you will Yes. That is it a human being?
Okay. So if it's a human being, isn't that a problem? And that's the kind of thing to get the, if you will, the more saw. There there is a section of folks, a segment, no argument. It they don't care. In fact, they will acknowledge, yeah, it's a baby, and I don't care, and and you can kill it whenever. Peter Singer, he's the head of ethics at Princeton University. Ethics. And he believes not just in abortion, but he believes in infanticide if the baby is deformed. And, of course, euthanasia and all it's all utilitarian to him. So, now it's interesting, and I mentioned in in the teaching when his mother was, ill with Alzheimer's, he and even though she said she wanted to be allowed to die, he and his sister gave her sustaining. And he was he was pushed by a CBS reporter. And his answer was, it's a little different when it's your mother.
[01:53:45] Unknown:
Is it really? No. Not at all. That that's that's probably the most lame, ridiculous answer you could possibly have given.
[01:53:52] Unknown:
But that's the kind of thing you bring up and discuss. So so I'm in favor when it's someone who's not in the faith is is will save because that'll be the argument. I don't believe okay. Let's just talk about the baby. Let's talk and here's Scott Kloosendorf is a wonderful he's probably the premier pro life advocate. He's written the case for life and others. He calls it trotting out the toddler. And so when you're having the discussion, yes, I'm in favor of abortion at two months. Okay. You're talking to that person. You see a toddler in the in in the, play yard, and he says, is it alright to if I kill the toddler? Well, of course not. Well, what if I don't have enough money? No. That's wrong. Right. Well, what what's the difference between the toddler and the two months?
[01:54:33] Unknown:
Just time. Yeah. That's it. That's exactly it.
[01:54:36] Unknown:
But it gets and what you're doing is is Greg Koukl, I love his his book tactics. He calls it putting a stone in the shoe. Mhmm. Just putting things to think
[01:54:47] Unknown:
about. Yes.
[01:54:50] Unknown:
And and that but I tell you one one of the things, Joe, that I think and this is where the church needs to step up is the the biggest reason and most abortions are elected. The biggest reason is lack of support. It's either, family, financial, that it is kind of an umbrella. Mhmm. Well, what's the church for? So that's what and you've got and and I see them. I see the men. The women are in there. Most are young. Almost none of them married. Most from, broken families, barely making it. And here's a baby's gonna come. Is that not what the church is about? Because that's that's the number one reason for for women to get an abortion is lack of support. Yeah. And a lot of churches fail at that.
[01:55:37] Unknown:
You know, a lot of churches don't help and don't provide support other than a pat on the shoulder will pray for you, you know, and and and push you along the way. Well, sometimes you need more than just prayer. Sometimes you need you need someone to sit there with you and and go to these appointments with you. And sometimes you need someone to to explain next steps to you, you know. And and I think the church in a lot of ways has failed horribly in a lot of that. And, and that's Also focus is putting on the show for Sunday morning. That Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, and and it's a sad it's a sad testament. But then again, if you are a Bible believer, you realize that that is just an example of what's to expect in the end days. You know, the church eventually will kind of implode upon itself Mhmm. And, and and not be that beacon of of of light to a lost and dying world.
Now, you study you study with Chuck Colson, we said, and, you're a Colson fellow. What is what are some of the core truths, that guide your work today from
[01:56:42] Unknown:
The the number one number one thing is there is a such thing as truth. Mhmm. And you'd say, well, duh. Well, no. Not duh. Because now it has a pronoun. I've heard senators say it's my truth. It's your truth. I mean, that this whole mentality. So that is the biggest takeaway. There is an absolute truth. Agreed. It's he defined it as that which conforms to reality. And we may not like the truth, but there is such a thing as truth. And then the idea of a moral truth That's right. And a moral truth giver. Now I think this comes with as as we discussed this topic and so many others is the who says. You know, why is shooting that toddler on the playground wrong? Who says that's wrong? Mhmm. We know lots think you're talking about the old, in Roman times and those folks. What about the Aztecs? They too threw virgin girls into the I know we're not supposed to say that, but Yeah. Sorry, those cultures because there wasn't that, idea of of value. So who says that was wrong? Because they were throwing it to the gods. So those were the the big things. And and then the third is this this idea of engaging with people and and selling the idea of a biblical worldview. In a biblical worldview, Arizona Christian University, which is where George Barna is, and and Adam Rasmussen, and they do the work there where they they they ask, Americans, but then break it down the subset of people who say they're Christian. But when you dig deep down, what do they believe about Christ? What do they believe about truth? What do they believe about these core things?
4% of American adults are born are have a Christian worldview. 4%.
[01:58:30] Unknown:
Which is which is is absolutely shocking, because it wasn't that long ago where, I think it was Oh, man. When I'm trying to remember when I when I read this. It was some time ago that at one point, 50 something percent of adults that were polled identified themselves as Christians, as bible believing Christians. A little smaller percentage with with that specific designation as a bible believing Christian, but Right. But the majority of of of adults would identify themselves as Christian. Now today, you're that's it's at 4%.
[01:59:07] Unknown:
But but that but still you have the identification. But when you drill down Yeah. A little deep and let me just give you one stat. I know we're running out of time. No. No. We're good. This idea that, life is sacred and the Bible doesn't is not clear about abortion. Half of born again Christians believe that. Which is That that life is sacred. Half of of these are self identified born again Christians. Half of them only. So half don't think life is sacred. Yeah. So Which is disturbing. Low church.
[01:59:41] Unknown:
That's absolutely disturbing when you think about it. Yeah.
[01:59:45] Unknown:
And that goes to, okay, the adults that may be too late, but let's get the kids. And that's what part of this this project, because it talks about biblical worldview and how to engage it and and how to how to look at it that way. See, one of the one of the benefits of being the second guest is that if we go a little over, we're okay.
[02:00:02] Unknown:
So so so we can go a little bit longer if you if you want, because we're at 09:00 now, so we can a few more minutes if you if you have the time available. Absolutely. Alright. So, a lot of the problem too with with people that question the the validity of scripture is because they're being taught this because we have a very secular education system. We're we're, you know, we're we're like you said, we're being every you know, our children are being taught that everything is subjective. You know, it's your truth. It's this one's truth. It's that one's truth. And then, of course, you know, as as someone who believes that the that that the bible is the word of God, to when you bring that to somebody and explain that to somebody, they're like, well, no. That's just a book that was written by man, and it's just a measure it's just a way for for for, a measure of control.
And and when you try to break it down to them, it it's it's incredibly difficult. And it's incredibly difficult. And it's becoming more and more prevalent as as as the days are drawing to a close. And I keep on referring to that. I don't I'm not sure exactly where you stand on on your view on that, but I personally believe the Lord's coming back with within the next five years. I don't quote me on that. I'm not setting dates. I'm not, you know He said we're not to know. Yeah. Exactly. I'm just gonna keep plugging through. But but we we are we do see the signs and the times, and we're told to we're told to notice those things. Mhmm. He can come five minutes from now. I I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You know? It's his call. But God bless. But but you see how things you see how things are developing, politically, socially, economically, globally.
And you can't you can't help but realize, okay. Yeah. We're in we're in the the last days of the last days. And it, you know, personally, I think he's coming within my lifetime. I'm hoping. I I wanna be here for that. I, you know, I wanna hear the trumpet. You know, I wanna see the whole thing happen. So, at any rate at any rate, so, when you think about your legacy, alright, what do you hope your students and and your readers carry forward?
[02:02:06] Unknown:
That that it that some light bulbs go off. That that's my hope. And I saw that with the pilot group. We did it with, high school kids. And as one of them said, I, yeah, I was pro life. I thought I knew everything. He said five minutes into the class, I said, I don't know nothing. So, so it is so thin, the idea of of pro life. And so just getting that concept getting the the undergirding that it is the biblical worldview, that understanding what truth is, because it it all it's all layered in in there and then how to engage and and how to share and how to make arguments as assertions and that sort of thing. And and part of the, teaching, I've got videos and, different examples that highlight the challenges that that they'll be facing. And, again, people who are listening tonight, who am I? I mean, why should they believe me? Which is why on the the website, if you don't mind me saying, prolifeleaders.net,
[02:03:09] Unknown:
if you go there And it's all gonna be included in the show notes. So Yeah. All your website all your information is in the show notes. So it's it's there for them. So so plug away, my friend. Plug away. Click and go. But all the, teaching modules are there so that they can read everything, PDFs of everything,
[02:03:26] Unknown:
the, the PowerPoints and the videos are there. Everything's there, and the the only cost, Beth and I have put a lot into this, and we're not getting anything out of the only cost. There's a printer in Dallas who will print on demand, and you you pay his printing and shipping, and that's it. And so my this will be this is frustrating, and tell me, Joe, if this surprises you. But I've I've adjusted just in the couple months that I've been out pitching it, And and I'm addressing some pastors in in a couple weeks, and I'm gonna continue to do that, but it's gotta come from below. My my goal is to find pro life champions in in churches who will look at this, love it, and say, let me get a pilot group of eight or 10 kids. Obviously, get permission. Yeah. Of course. But do it and teach it, and, hopefully, it'll work and it'll spread. So that's the ideas. Let let's try it. There's I'm taking away the excuse of the church saying, well, there's a lot out there. What would we teach? Well, here it is. It's five courses, about thirty five minutes each.
It's it's, you know, it's not easy stuff, but you've gotta commit to it. But it's thirty thirty five, five modules Mhmm. And then ideas undoing the hands on. So that's a way. And then the cost is way. All you're paying for is printing trying to take away excuses. Yeah. And if you really are pro life, let's give it a shot and and try it. So that's hope. And that's that's what Beth and I are hoping is that it will spark more engagement and make a difference.
[02:05:05] Unknown:
I I don't know. We'll see. We will. That's what I hope the legacy is. And it's something it's definitely something to consider and something we pray about, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. So I we we talked a lot of a lot of really heavy subjects, tonight. So I'm gonna try to wrap this up with some more well, another serious question, but and it's and it's a challenging question, I should say. A challenging question for you. Alright? I'm glad you're sitting down. You've been married for forty six years. What's one piece of relationship advice you'd give to your younger self?
[02:05:43] Unknown:
Okay. This is easy, because I just shared it a little bit ago. Thank you, Joe. K. It took me, oh, I'd say sixteen years, but it may have been twenty, to realize that when Beth was sharing a concern, an issue, most times she didn't want an answer. I wanted to fix it. Oh, that's easy. X y z. It's like at my office. I got these problems. We take it care of it. Because that's what men do. Men wanna
[02:06:16] Unknown:
fix the problem. Gauge. Yeah.
[02:06:18] Unknown:
To be be part of it. And it took me that long. I'm I still stumble sometimes. She'll look at me, Stu. Yeah. So that's nice. Don't need an answer. Don't need an answer. They are. But that's and I do it, and I shared it with the younger couple not too long ago. Oh, that's great. Along that along that line. That's hard to do. That's hard for no. We're fixers. That's right. Well, we try to be fixers. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes
[02:06:43] Unknown:
sometimes we're more successful than others. Yes. For sure. But but I totally I totally agree with you on that one. I I know I know from my own personal, like, experiences, I I I I throw myself into a problem with the intention of correcting it, fixing it, however you wanna phrase it. I don't listen well enough, and that's that's an issue. You need to be sensitive, I think anyway, you need to be sensitive to what's actually being said, sometimes more than fixing the problem. Right. And sometimes sometimes just listening is all it takes to fix the problem.
Not necessarily have to tear the house down to fix it. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. That gets you so far. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then then I got a mess to clean up afterwards. So, if you were if you weren't writing, speaking, mentoring, what would you be doing for fun?
[02:07:40] Unknown:
You know, I have been so, I played golf for thirty years. I picked it up when I had my job. It was part of the business thing, and I and I finally gave up after thirty years. And so then when I retired early and started different ministries, I said, let me do tennis. And and I'm now getting to the to that point. So and I was a pretty good athlete growing up, baseball, hockey, and these sorts of things. And so, yeah, I'd be a more accomplished tennis player.
[02:08:12] Unknown:
So you so you played hockey,
[02:08:14] Unknown:
Well, just pick up. Just pick up. Yeah. I I Horrible at basketball, but I I was a goalie. I was a goalie in soccer. I I love this. Alright. I I played three sports growing up. I played, football, baseball, hockey.
[02:08:26] Unknown:
And, football, I I I played both sides of the ball in football. I I was a defensive tackle, offensive guard. And, for some strange reason, I was the only person on the team that could do a long snap. So every every now and then You could have been a rich guy nowadays. That's a great gig. But now but, you know, I hated doing it, but, you know, I was able to. So, you know, I get tapped for that. Yeah. Baseball, I I was a third baseman in, in baseball. And then, in hockey, I was, of course, I was a right wing defender. So and, you know, and and and somebody pointed out to you that, you know, most of the positions that I've always played is always because, positions that you get to
[02:09:09] Unknown:
hit people. So There you go. So you look you look
[02:09:13] Unknown:
the part. You Well, thank you.
[02:09:15] Unknown:
Strong. You're gonna go I'm a teddy bear. Impressive. I I am such a teddy bear. It's like, it's not even funny. There we go. Man. Oh, boy. Alright. Well, Stuart, thank you. This was this was great tonight. So where can the audience go to learn more about you, about students in action, your book, your speaking work, which we really didn't get too much into the book. But Yeah. Two two things. One is the website, students and,
[02:09:37] Unknown:
I'm sorry, prolifeleaders.net. Prolifeleaders.net. And, again, it's a website. It's, it's just all there. All the materials there include videos, for just little highlights of what's going on. And, also, if I can throw out [email protected], comes right to me. And I'm going to mentor, teachers to help them answer questions. So send me an email. I'd love to talk about it. Outstanding. Outstanding.
[02:10:07] Unknown:
Alright. Well, Stuart Kellogg, thank you so much. I will definitely be in touch with you again because we again, we really didn't get too much into the book, and I I'd like to do that at at some other time. So maybe we could schedule another day.
[02:10:18] Unknown:
I'd love to. Or you can come on. And this time, I'll get all the technical stuff wrong. I'm I apologize. Well, no. No. It's it's my fault. It it's it's my Glad it worked. My studio thing here. You know, hopefully,
[02:10:28] Unknown:
next time you come on, we won't have any technical issues. I love it. Well, I know how I'd love to do that. And thank you for the invitation. Oh, anytime. Anytime, brother. God bless you. I really appreciate all the work you're doing, and you're doing fantastic work. And just to say, I I did go onto your website, earlier today, and and it it really is a very easy site to navigate your way through. So, folks, there's really no excuse why you couldn't find what you're looking for on the site. So just make sure you head over there and take a look at it. If this is something that speaks to your heart, if this is something that, as as a believer, if if this is something that is really important to you, it should be, first of all. But, you know, I'm not here to point fingers and judge at anybody, but pray about it. Get yourself involved with something like this. It's very, very important work. And, again, Stewart, thank you so much for bringing it to us. Thank you, Joe, for letting me on this platform. Appreciate it. You have a great night. Thank you. You too. Alright, folks. Stewart Kellogg. Alright. So, normally, we would take a little bit of a break here and kinda reset, but you know what? We're just gonna go right into the last few things, for the night here. And I moved my board over, so I gotta try to find things.
But, let's see. Where is it? Where is it? How the heck would it? Some announcements. Alright. Don't forget. Head over to the website, joeroos.com. Joeroos.com. And when you get over there, make sure you open up that web form. Send us over any questions, comments, cares, or concerns that you have. Any issues you might have. Anything that you'd like us to let us anything you'd like to let us know about. Any ideas, suggestions, you know, for guests or topics that you'd like to discover, and discuss. Let us know about it. Alright? Head over to joeroos.com. Open up the contact form, send it over to us. If you don't wanna use that, you can always email it to me directly at [email protected]. That is [email protected].
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Any number of ways, to to let us know that you're there, you're listening, and you appreciate, the content that we're putting out there. So again, that's the value for value model. So head on over to modernpodcastapps.com or podcastindex.org to find, those modern podcast apps. Alright. So, shout outs tonight to our executive producers, Wayne Rankin, Rosanna Rankin, Carolina Jimenez, and Marissa Lee, and, of course, to our producer, our anonymous Angela. Thank you guys so much for all that you guys do for us, here with the show. Really do appreciate all the support, all the encouragement, and all the little things that you guys do. Thank you so much for that. It's a it's a huge help for me. And also, I don't know if you noticed or not, but we have, we have a new addition to our flag display here. We have our, I stand with Trump flag that was, donated to us today by Carolina Jimenez. And thank you so much for that. We really do appreciate it. So it's gonna be right here for now until I find, a place here in the studio where we're gonna put it. And, so I I love it. Thank you. I really do appreciate that. That is great. And, I think, that should pretty much do it for us. I think let me see if there's anything else here we have.
No? Okay. I think that should do it. So with that said, folks, thanks for spending some time with us tonight. We really do appreciate it. Don't forget to head over to the website, joeroos.com. Check it out, all the pages that are up there. And don't forget, make Texas independent again. Go podcasting. Keep a steady stride and keep talking. Good night and goodbye.
[02:16:28] Unknown:
To you.
[02:16:43] Unknown:
Together?
[02:16:44] Unknown:
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather. Happy trails
[02:16:53] Unknown:
to you. To be me all again.
Can you hear me now?
[00:00:45] Unknown:
So did everybody.
[00:00:47] Unknown:
Great.
[00:01:42] Unknown:
Alrighty, folks. Hey. This is Joe Roos. It is nineteen hundred hours, Wednesday, 07/30/2025, and we are transmitting to you live from the asylum studios, from the pimple on the backside of Texas, the beautiful city of Eagle Pass, and we are bringing you the best quality talk radio we could muster without all the bluster. This is The Joe Root Show. Folks, I hope you guys are having a great day. Very interesting that, right now, up on my extra monitor here, I have our guest, but I don't see myself. So that's kinda interesting. I'm wondering what's going on here. So we might have to, do a complete and total restart.
But, while I have him here, let me introduce him to you. Patrick O'Donnell, welcome to the Joe Russo. How you doing, my friend? Doing good. Thanks for having me. Alright. Well, it is, it's great to have you here. I'm just wondering how much, let's see. Well well, before we decide to do a reset, we'll see if the, if my monitor up top here changes over this way, I know we're streaming across. Alright. No. Well, I guess not, because you're talking, and I'm not there. So let's see. Let me check on this one here. Yeah. Look, it looks like you are a solo show today, buddy.
So, let me do this. I'm gonna I'm gonna end the stream, and I'm gonna reset it. Alright? So, you can just click your camera off for a second. We'll be back in a second. We'll see if we get this thing straightened out. My friends, this is the joy and the beauty of doing a live show. So, we, have all of these wonderful little little issues and problems. So let's, let's get this thing here restarted, and, we'll be back. Stay with us.
[00:03:53] Unknown:
There you are.
[00:03:57] Unknown:
Yeah. I'm just wait I'm waiting now for the, for the for the street. There we go. Alright. Yeah. I can see you. Okay. There we go. So we're all set. Alright. So we had a we had a restart, and, we'll be we're back now. We got Patrick with us. So Patrick is gonna sit here since we've already introduced him. He'll sit here with us and we'll go through the, the opening of the show here with him. We do have some, some housekeeping that we normally do, and we'll get we'll do that, right here, right now. So, folks, Ezra healing is a substantial part of the new wellness paradigm currently being born in North America and around the globe. The global citizenry are no longer satisfied with the sick care version of so called health care. Band aid medicine, endlessly treating symptoms rather than root causes, must be abandoned as soon as possible.
Patient centric care must be the priority. We need to transition towards the do no harm model of private care that places humanity at the forefront of real health and wellness care. In this new model, your entire lifestyle is examined and analyzed to promote and support the totality of your body's integrated systems. Ezra Healing is a solutions based health promotion and disease prevention grassroots movement that is always evolving to best serve you and your family. So folks, for more information on Ezra Healing, just head over to ezrahealing.com. That's ezrahealing.com, and make sure you tell them that you heard it here on the Joe Russo.
This way they know that their money is being well spent. Alright. Well, our first guest here tonight is living proof that retirement doesn't mean slowing down. It might just be the start of something entirely new. Patrick O'Donnell is a retired City Of Milwaukee police sergeant with twenty five years of street experience under his belt. But instead of riding off into the sunset, he's leaned into a second act as a prolific author, podcast host, and expert resource for crime writers around the world. He's written 10 books, including his latest thriller, The Good Caller, and hosts the widely respected Cops and Writers podcast. He also runs a Facebook community of more than 8,000 members, helping crime and thriller writers get it right. You may have seen him featured on the front of the page the front page of the Wall Street Journal, or offering insights as an expert contributor on Tubi. My favorite movie streaming service by the way, Tubi. Everybody makes fun of me about Tubi. I love Tubi.
Patrick brings a rare perspective to the table, grounded in real world police experience, and sharpened by a storyteller's instinct. Folks, please welcome Patrick O'Donnell. Patrick. Thanks Thanks for having me on your show. Alright, my friend. So let so we had a so of course, you have the little kerfuffles, you know, live shows tend to have little little issues here like this. They do. And I'm not surprised, because like I always say, it would not be a show that I'm doing if I don't have some kind of a problem at the outset of the show. So it never fails, but That's all behind us now. It's gonna be smooth sailing. Oh, for sure. For sure. For sure. I'm gonna drink my, my blue stuff, and we'll be good. So, while I'm doing this, I'm gonna ask you a question. So what's the most what's something that most people don't know about you, but should?
[00:07:04] Unknown:
That's a good question. And it seems to be gaining some traction. Maybe more people are listening to you than you think. Maybe. I've been asked that more than once. And it first glance of me, you know, I love lifting weights. I ride a Harley. I love smoking cigars. And, you know, my wife called me Neanderthal. I'm a very basic kinda guy. And one of my greatest joys in life is going out for fine dining, white tablecloth restaurant, and I love, love good champagne.
[00:07:37] Unknown:
Nice. See, I'd see, I knew we were gonna get along right away because I am a cigar guy. I I love a good cigar. Oh, absolutely. What's your go to stick?
[00:07:46] Unknown:
You know what? I found a place in Ybor City. Have you ever been? Mm-mm. Out it's outside it's in Tampa, and it was founded by, Cubans. Okay. This is a heavy Cuban population, so, of course, cigars are a big part of the culture. And there's a bunch of they call them cigar factories Okay. Along a row of, you know, businesses. It's more or less, like, bars that have they make their own cigars. Nice. Nice. And you could see them rolling them, like, in the windows. That's when you're walking by. That's gotta be that's gotta be a treat to see that. And I I I thought It really is. I mean, that's a cool afternoon, and you feel, you know, it's like I I remember my first time going there. There's, like, actual roosters and chickens walking around. Oh, cool. Like, holy cow. Alright. Well, that's different.
But there's a place that I really, really like. It's called La Firona.
[00:08:41] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:08:42] Unknown:
And I get almost all my cigars from there now. I absolutely love them. And they're they're very reasonably priced, and, you know, it's like, I've seen them roll them there. You know, and it's just it's a really nice stick. I I'm I'm a big fan.
[00:08:59] Unknown:
Sweet. How about you? Well, first of all, I it I don't think people realize just how much skill really goes into rolling a cigar. They I it's not like rolling a joint on the street corner someplace. You know? This is actually a skill that that that is Absolutely. That takes a long time to develop. And, but, so that's just that's one thing to get out there. The other and my favorite, man, I, you know, I love I love Rocky Patel cigars. I think they're they're just absolutely fantastic, and really great quality. I I love, Artura Fuente eight five eight. It's really nice.
Recently, I I had, I had a a Camacho Triple Maduro, which was powerful, powerful cigar. Pair that nice with with some Elijah Craig toasted barrel. Oh, beautiful. Sure. Great. Perfect perfect pair. And then, was it, I think it was over I think it was Friday or Saturday. I, I got together with a friend of mine, George, and we, we lit up some Avo Heritage, sticks, which were really nice. Very, very nice cigars. So I I I love them. I think they're great. And one of the great things about cigars too isn't is that the fact that you don't it's not like a cigarette where you need it all the time. You know? It it it can go let's say where where did I go? I went about maybe three, four months before I had a stick, and,
[00:10:22] Unknown:
it's just the way it is. It's it's like insane, and plus it's it's healthier for you than a cigarette, I think. You know, so you you may not get I think so too. And, you know, the thing about it is and, you know, I live in Wisconsin where we have real winters. Mhmm. And, you know, that really curtails the cigar smoking.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
Oh, you're not allowed to smoke on the house? Back patio and smoke a stick when it's 20 degrees below zero. Yeah. True that. That ain't enjoyable. No. No. No. No. No. When I when I lived in New York, we we had plenty of those cold winters. And, yeah. You weren't outside smoking a cigar. If you were, you were brave. Yeah. Or you had a problem. Yeah. Either way. One of the two things. Yeah. For sure. But, Yeah. But, yeah. The the they're they're great, man. I I love I love doing that. Like I like I always say, I love sitting out in the back excuse me. I love sitting out in the backyard with a with a a good a good cigar, some bourbon, and a good woman. We're good to go. Well, yep. Can't go wrong there. No, sir. Not at all.
So, so, we already covered your go to stuff. So I was gonna ask you what your go to beverage is to unwind at the end of the day, but I think we got that already.
[00:11:27] Unknown:
Yeah. The champagne isn't obviously not an everyday thing because I don't drink the cheap garbage. I mean, although, I must say, Costco, of all places, has, you know, the Kirkland brand. They have a bottle of champagne that's actually not horrible, and it's, like, $20. You know, Kirkland stuff is not bad at all. You know? Kirkland stuff. I was shocked. I I just picked it up on a whim one time, and, yeah, I brought it home to my wife and I'm like, ah, let's give this a whirl. And I was like, this isn't half bad. I mean, it's not like
[00:11:55] Unknown:
a really good bottle of champagne, but, hey. You know, it's a weekday. You feel like popping up in some bubbles. What the hell? Why not? Why not? I I there there's not a Costco near me. The the nearest one to me is either in Mexico because I'm right on the border. So it's, it's the nearest one is either in Mexico or it's, like, two and a half, three hours away in San Antonio. So so, I don't have that benefit. But when I lived in New York, there was a Costco within walking distance from where I lived. And, I remember the box of wine they used to have too. That was, you know, it wasn't really it really wasn't that bad, you know. It was, you know, if you're just hanging out in the backyard, you know, not not not doing anything super special, special occasion, anything like that. It's not bad. Yeah. They sell premium stuff too. They sell some, like, premium,
[00:12:35] Unknown:
whiskeys and bourbons. They also have, one of my go to, champagnes is Bollinger. I love Bollinger. No. That's good stuff. Yeah. And they had I was watching the price for, like, four or five months. And then finally, I pulled the trigger. I, you know, I text my wife. I'm like, it's under $200. I gotta get it. Yeah. Sorry, honey. So Bollinger's I did. Bollinger is a pricey one. I I remember one time, when I was again, I was much younger. I was,
[00:13:03] Unknown:
I don't even think I was on the job yet. A friend of mine was was throwing a dinner party, and, I I had no idea about this stuff at the time. I I was I was a noob to to all the fine dining, which by the way, I love to cook. I'm I'm a I'm an amateur chef myself, so I I, you know, you get you get five star restaurant quality food in my place. But, at least that's what I say anyway. Sure. But, so my my friend was throwing his dinner party, and, he was like, hey, why don't you bring the bottle? Why don't you bring a bottle of wine? I'm like, alright. I I don't what am I getting? I don't know anything about wine. So he goes, alright. So he gives me a list of of different wines. I don't remember the list. Up top of my head, I'm talking. This is 1992 probably.
So he she gives me this list of wines, and and I remember going to the to the store that I I knew the most, and, I was talking to the to the guy behind the counter, and I was like, well, I don't know what to get. I'm I'm looking my friend gave me this. He goes, well, I don't have this. I don't have this. He goes, this I have though. I said, okay. Great. He goes, I'll be right back. So I I knew I was in trouble when he went to the middle of the store, and he pulled up the floorboards. Oh, gosh. And he went down into the cellar. Oh, boy. Yeah. That just smells expensive. Yeah. And and he brought it up, and I'm the kind of person that if I'm gonna put you through all that to get it for me, then I'm I'm not gonna say no. So Right. So here I'm a struggling college student, and, you know, comes up with this bottle of wine. I was like, alright. Well, okay. How much?
He goes, this one is $3.50. And I'm like, $3? I said, $3.50? He goes, he goes, no. So I bought it. You did. Wow. Because I I put him through the effort, so I was, you know, that's the way I was. So I I bought it, and when I got to my friend's house, I threw it at him. I was like, half now. So he was like, well, I didn't tell you to buy this one. You get you put it on the list. That is the only one the place had. Do you remember what it was? No, I don't. I I I wish I wish I did. Because it was good. I I will say that it was good. I hope so for that kind of cash. That much I do remember. But, so twenty five years on the force. So, after all that time in uniform, what what made you start writing, true crime stories?
[00:15:27] Unknown:
Well, before I was a cop, you know, I I went to college. I got a four year degree in sociology, and my minor was criminal justice. And to pay the bills, I mean, it took me six years to get on the job. Back then, I got on in '95. Okay. And, you know, I remember taking the test, and there was 3,000 of us. Mhmm. And that was just majority mail. This is during affirmative action.
[00:15:52] Unknown:
Okay.
[00:15:53] Unknown:
And there there was gonna be another couple of tests. So you're talking, like, almost 9,000 applicants for maybe 500 positions if. So, I mean, it was that's why it took six year six years to get on. I was on a waiting list for four years. Right. And I had to pay the bills. I got married young. You know, I was, like, 23 years old right out of college. And, you know, I I was a restaurant manager. I was a bartender, and I was a car salesman for four years. So, inevitably, you know, I get on the department, and people would still ask me to help them buy a car because I was on the other side of the desk for four years. Right. I knew how to do it.
And somebody came up to me and says, you know, you should really write a book about that. You know, how to buy a car. And I'm just like, are you kidding me? Did you see my English scores? I mean, I'm I'm dyslexic. I'm I'm I'm a train wreck behind a keyboard. What what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah. You you can, you know, just just try. And I'm like, okay. So I did, and it was a glorified PDF. That was my first book. Okay. And I called it I Never Wore Plaid, Insider Secrets from a Former Car Salesperson. Yeah. And then the tagline is how to buy a car without being taken for a ride. Nice. I wrote I wrote it under, a pen name because any kind of outside employment would have to be approved by the chief, and Yeah. He wouldn't understand this.
So he it's an automatic no. You know, pretty much everything was a no unless, you know, it was, like, working a brewer game or something like that. They they didn't yeah. So I'm just like, okay. I'm just gonna do it on the down low. So it's a funny story because a good buddy of mine knew a gal that had a New York agent. You know, she's big time published author. Hey. You know what? I'll give her your manuscript. I'm like, great. Mhmm. So I he does that. She calls me the next day. I love it. I'm gonna pitch it for you in New York. And I'm like, holy shit. Alright. I'm gonna be rich. You know, I'm going to international autos. I'm looking at the Porsches. You know? And I'm like, this is gonna be great. Life is awesome.
Then he calls me the next day, and he said, hey. Bad news. I'm like, what? So, yeah, I got into an argument with her last night, and I don't know how that plays out for you. And I'm like, alright. So I called her and I say, hey. Heard you guys had a TIF last night. I hope this doesn't interfere with our professional, you know, relationship. And she's like, oh, no. F you. I'm done. Okay. If you're a friend of his, I I already threw it in the garbage. And I'm like, back to the Camry. Alright. So I'm like, damn. And I'm like, I'm so dejected and whatever, but I started listening to podcasts. This is about when this is back in, like, two thousand eleven, two thousand ten. Mhmm. And there was some self publishing podcast. I didn't realize you could publish yourself.
You could self publish. So I threw it up on Amazon, horrible cover, bad editing, blah blah blah. And people actually bought it, and it wasn't my like, my mom or, like, my best friend. You know? It's like strangers are paying book, you know, paying for this. So fast forward, I wrote a few more books, and I started going to writer conferences. And, inevitably, when you're a cop, people just figure it out. They find you. Yeah. And I wasn't wearing, like, a T shirt or anything that's yeah. I'm wearing a cop T shirt now. But back then, I wasn't, you know, at these conferences. I just wanted to blend in. And they're gonna I have people ask me cop questions. You know? It's like, hey. I'm writing this story. You know? Would they need a warrant for that? Is this reasonable? You know? Blah blah blah. And they're all very nice about it, and I'm like, So somebody that knew a lot more about this stuff than I did approached me. He says, you should write a couple books or at least a book on police procedure for authors. And I'm like, okay. I'll give it a whirl. That's interesting. So I did. It was called Cops and Writers.
And from the academy to the street, then I wrote a second one, crime scenes and investigations. And it's specifically for crime writers Okay. Or people who are just curious about cop stuff. And they sold like crazy. Oh my gosh. I was just like, wow. I found a niche. I started a Facebook community to promote the books. K. And it started out with my editor, me, and a couple buddies. Now there's 8,300 people in there, and I wound up on the Wall Street Journal. They did a story about it. Wow. That's pretty awesome. Then I started the podcast to promote the books.
Okay. And that recently has just exploded. Cops and writers. You know, I kept it all the same. Yeah. I'm just interviewing mostly cops that have written a book. So now, you know, before I know it, I'm talking to Jack Harr. I'm talking to, Steve Murphy and Javier Pena that took down Pablo Escobar. Wow. You know, I'm getting I had some I have some really good guests, and I'm like, this came literally out of nowhere. It was all organic. It's crazy how that happens. Yeah. It's just it's nuts. So, yeah, that that's how I wound up writing. And then because of the podcast, there was a publisher that I interviewed, and he said, hey. Wanna write some books with me? And I'm like, yeah. Sure. What the hell? Why not? So I wrote four books with him.
And then my latest, The Good Caller, I self published. Nice. Nice. I I I actually have, an outline
[00:21:35] Unknown:
tucked away someplace that, I I was I was building in in the last few years of, of working for for New York City, and, I called it, Why I Wake Up Screaming My Years Working for New York. So so, I have I have it all tucked away, and I'm, I'm I'm debating whether or not I'm actually gonna do it. I've I figured I would do, in sections. So each section would be a different aspect of my career from uniform service as a patrol officer to supervisory services, then and then when I went to investigations and then ending up in operations. So, each section would have its own particular horror story, in in relation to it and explain. All I gotta say is just do it. Yeah. That probably will. Someday. Just
[00:22:21] Unknown:
no. Not someday. You know? It's like, here's here's my 2¢ worth for you. You know? It's like, try to write for start out with, like, fifteen minutes a day. Mhmm. Fifteen minutes. I don't care when, where, whatever. You got it. Fifteen minutes, that's probably about maybe a 100 words, you know, on Microsoft Word. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Mhmm. You know, just start waking up that part of your brain. Right. And you'll build on that. Interesting. You know, before you know it, you're gonna be like, hey. You know what? I gotta write I have to write a thousand words today.
And if you I mean, most novels are, like, sixty, seventy thousand words. Before you know it, in a couple months, you got a book. And even if it just takes a while, so what? And your first book isn't going to be great, just so you know. I mean, it can happen, but usually, it does not. Yeah. I And you're cutting your teeth. You know? It's like you're figuring it out. Kind of expect that though.
[00:23:21] Unknown:
Yep. Absolutely. You have to. You do you have to. So, so you retired from from the police department, as a as a supervisor. Correct? Yeah. I was a sergeant for seventeen years. Alright. And and did was it all patrol work, or did you work in any kind of Absolutely. I love patrol.
[00:23:38] Unknown:
I I wanted to be on the street. I didn't want anything else. I I was getting headhunted to work up at IED. Okay. And, thankfully, I knew a couple of people up there that I worked with when I was a copper. You know, my buddy calls me. You we used to be partners every now and then. Hey, Pat. You're you know, you're coming up here. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah. You're you're coming up to IED. And I'm just like, for sure. He says, oh, yeah. You're coming. So he was a sergeant. And at the time, I was a sergeant, so I called the lieutenant up there, and I worked with her as a cop. And I said, hey. Little bird told me that, you know, I'm coming up to, you know, the rat factory, and she's just like, you'll love it here, Pat. Oh my god. I I'm super flexible with hours. You know, if you want overtime, I'll make sure you I'm like, no. Absolutely not. It is needed. You have to have good people up there. Mhmm. But that ain't me. I'm not hardwired for it.
I mean, every now and then, as a street supervisor, obviously, you're taking complaints from people. Mhmm. You know, he did this. He did that. Blah blah blah. And sometimes you're called to help with IED. To more than one cop, unfortunately. And I've had to take cops' guns for him. I remember one time I called from a female detective that's up at IED, and she's arresting this cop or he's drunk off his ass. He had a hard he had a bad time with alcohol. And she's like, yeah. Could you go take his gun for me? And I'm like, excuse me? You're not coming with for this party? And then she's, I'll stay down here. And I'm like, alright. That's why you got such a bad reputation, lady. So I go upstairs with this super drunk cop who was, like, one minute at bawling. The other minute, he's punching a wall, and he's I'll get my gun for you. I'm like, no. No. No. No. No. I'll get it. Just tell me where it is. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll take care of it. Thank you. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, more than one situation like that.
[00:25:36] Unknown:
So, so in your years of supervising, and and, you know, doing investigation work and, you know, dealing with felonies and major felonies, how did all that shape the kind of stories that you tell today?
[00:25:49] Unknown:
You know what? There's no way I could block it. You know, it's funny. When I was writing those four I call it the Brew City Blues. It was kinda like Hill Street Blues, but or Blue Bloods set in Milwaukee. Okay. And it was loosely an outline of my career, you know, with all the crazy stuff that, you know, happened to me. And then the good collar is a little more on the fiction side, but that's also takes place in Milwaukee. My my poor wife and dog had to endure me. I would like Pete kicked into over double overdrive when I'm writing these books. Really? She my wife was like, you wake up just screaming.
And I'm like, I'm in a gunfight. You know, my gun doesn't work. You know? All the typical, you know, cop stuff. So, yeah, it it triggers something in my brain that, you know, you push away. Sure. You know, it's self preservation. But when you start regurgitating it on the keyboard,
[00:26:47] Unknown:
you know, it wakes it up. And you you don't know when it's gonna hit you. Oh, I know I know exactly what you're talking about. There there are a lot of things that that I've experienced over the years that, I don't really talk about. You know, I I try to avoid the subject. One of them when I moved when I moved down here to Texas, you know, the the the and people realized that I I I worked in law enforcement and and such. And the first usually, the first question I get is, well, were you there during, the World Trade Center attacks?
Well, no. I wasn't there at the exact moment. I had just gotten off duty, and I was on my way home when it happened, and I had to turn around and go back. And the towers were just a few blocks away from my command. So I was there, you know, every night for about six months doing on the pile, doing rescue recovery, doing building searches, and, you know, all that security posts and whatnot. And, you know, I don't really talk about it much. I don't go into detail. I don't tell people the things that I've seen and, you know, experience in that. Right. And, so I yeah. I know what you're saying. You you have those moments that, you know, it just hits you out of nowhere. You know, all of a sudden Absolutely. All of a sudden, just you could just have you have the the grandest all day, and all of a sudden, just one little thing will just trigger a memory.
And, and then you're it's like you're toast for the rest of the day, you know, at that point. It it's it's hard. Can be debilitating.
[00:28:15] Unknown:
And for me, you know, my therapy is working out. Yeah. Always has been. You know, it's I mean, I went through a horrible divorce, thirteen years ago, fourteen years ago. And, of course, you know, being a cop, you know, of course, I hit the bottle pretty hard. Yeah. You figure out, well, the answers aren't at the bottom of that bottle, so I just doubled down on the working out. That kept me sane. Yeah. Yeah. That and that's the key thing too, is you have to redirect. You have to find something else.
[00:28:41] Unknown:
I mean, I I did the whole bottle routine. You know, I just I just went through a divorce myself, three years ago. And, that that was that just brought back a lot of stuff. And, you know, I found myself Oh, yeah. I found myself going down that route again. But, you know, I started doing the podcast again. I I had done it before I started doing podcasts, and before they even called it podcast, they used to call it Internet radio. So I I started doing it, you know, years ago, back in, like, 2015, 2016. I took a break from it, then came down here, started up another podcast, did it for about two, maybe almost three years, put it aside, for a little bit, and just got to get a change of pace.
And then the idea to do this one came up, and I had no intention of it being this like this. I I originally planned on doing this just one day a week, just, you know, just to kind of vent, you know, that type of thing. Right. And, you know, have the occasional guest and and just, you know, do it whenever I felt like doing it. Now, all of a sudden, it's this is, three nights a week, live show, a Saturday show, a Sunday show, and I'm just, like, it's just tape. That's a ton of for people who don't realize, Joe, that's a ton of work. No, it is. Like, just a ton of work. It is. And, I'm I'm fortunate though. I'm blessed really. I have I I have people that that donate their time and their talent and help me do the stuff.
I have a producer. Her name is Angela. She is fantastic. Never met her face to face. I just talked to her on the phone every now and then. She Sure. She was listening to the show, and she volunteers her time and her talent. She helps me with the Wow. Booking guests and goes through emails and things like that. And we have, you know, we talk about, you know, next steps. And then I have, so I call her my producer, and then I have executive producers. You know, these are the folks that that donate, that donate money to the show. They're they're treasure. So I have it's you can donate your time, your talent, your treasure. Those those are the three t's that that we do. And, so they get they get these little perks and whatnot for doing it. But, they all contribute in some way, shape, or form. They all help me out. They're I have one friend of mine who lives a great friend. I've known him for many, many years. He lives up in Washington State, and, you know, we talk regularly.
He he came down here to visit, and he hung out with me here in the studio when when I redid the entire studio. And, he was on the show with me for a week, you know, did every night. So that was a lot of fun. You know, I got people to help me, but it is a lot of work though. It it absolutely is. And, and then of course, you know, you have things like, you know, technical problems that drive you that drive you crazy. You're like, I'm trying to Yep. Build something here, dude. You're killing me. It's killing me. But no, it's great. No. I'm not gonna dip it to a bottle tonight, though. Don't worry about it. I'm, you know Excellent. It's not I'm not gonna trip out with that. But, but what was your transition like going from, from law enforcement to to to to being an author to being a podcaster? What was that like for you?
[00:31:37] Unknown:
Well, I retired I I got on the job 01/16/1995. I raised my right hand, and I retired 01/16/2020. People are like, oh, it must have been, you know, COVID and George Floyd. I'm like, none of the above. Yeah. I I had my 25 in, and after I had close to twenty years on the job, I'm like, well, I know when I'm gonna pop smoke. If you wanna maximize your pension, you gotta do it at 25. Mhmm. The first few years are pretty lean, but, you know, I get a cola, and that helps quite a bit. But you have to build that up. Yeah. And, you know, and I wasn't, like, sitting in a rocking chair, you know, super old. I was I was 55.
Okay. You know? And police work is it's for the young, especially if you wanna be on the street and your heart's on the street. It ain't an old guy sport. It's a young guy sport. It's just all the bumps and bruises and the sleep deprivation
[00:32:37] Unknown:
and the stress. And, again, that ain't for old people Yeah. At all. And then I think it also there there comes a point where you've where if you really are honest with yourself, there there there comes a point, and I hope from my own experience too, where I I realized that, you know, I I started I started to I don't wanna say not care, but I I got to the point where it was like, you know, I I just didn't wanna be bothered with doing paperwork. I know it sounds sounds weird to most people, but you know what I'm you know what I'm talking about. So it's like Oh, yeah. I do know. So I would let I would let things slide, you know, that I that in my younger days, I wouldn't normally let slide. You know, I would just give a warning and say, I was just don't just stop, you know, just cut it out. Just go. Right. And, I realized at one point at at one point that, you know, I was turning I was turning an eye away from things that really I shouldn't be.
And I said, you know what? Someone's gonna get hurt. It's either gonna be my partner, it's gonna be myself, or somebody in the public, and I think it's time to step aside. And and that's and that's when it that's when I decided to to to get out of the uniform service. And I I went into investigations and then and eventually into operations. But, but, you know, it's it's it's one of those things that you it is. It's for someone who's it's it's for someone much younger, you know, like I don't It really is. Like, I'm I'm gonna be 55 this year. I don't I don't think I could put the uniform on again, do it again. I I was offered positions down here in Texas with the sheriff's department and and stuff. I I just no. I I can't. Yeah. The idea of having to go back to an academy again is just, you know.
[00:34:11] Unknown:
Yeah. I mean, the first couple of months, you feel like, oh, I'm on vacation. Yeah. You know, this is really cool. But then COVID hit, and, you know, things started closing down. And I'm like, okay. Then all the George Floyd riots kicked into high gear. Yeah. You know, in Milwaukee, we had we had people trying to take over police districts with Molotov cocktails, the whole shooting. I remember I remember that. It was crazy ville. And I got survivor guilt like you would not like, you couldn't imagine. I was not a good person to be around. I I was not a good person to live with. And, again, like I said before, my therapy was going to the gym. Mhmm. The gym was closed. And I'm like, I was a fish out of water. And I'm I'm watching TV, like, eighteen hours a day. Yeah. You know, everything that's going on with these riots. And I see my guys out there working sixteen, twenty four hour days, and I'm not out there with them. Yeah. And I I felt like a shitheel. I felt horrible.
And my wife, finally, she's just like, you've been through riots. You've worked seventy two hours in a row. Mhmm. You've you've paid your dues. It's time for somebody else to do it. You've you've been rocked. You've been bottled. You've been shot at. You've had people try to kill you. Yeah. You know? So it's like, enough is enough. You know? A police department is designed so when it's time for Pat O'Donnell to ride off into the sunset, They're not closing shop tomorrow, you know, because you retired. Right. It's from the chief on down. If something happens to the chief and he's like, I don't wanna do this anymore, okay. We got we got this covered. Yeah. Exactly. And that's anybody. And, unfortunately, in our line of work, there are some that think they're so super awesome or special Mhmm. That the they think that the you know, if they leave, God forbid,
[00:36:08] Unknown:
you know, the wheels on the bus are just gonna stop rolling. Yeah. And that's not the way it is. Not at all. I I I know I know somebody that as you're telling the story, I know somebody
[00:36:17] Unknown:
that's Oh, every every cop can close their eyes and is like, oh, yeah. I oh, yeah. I know that guy. Right in my head. That can't let it go. It's like Yeah. Let go. Let go. You'll be okay. It's alright. Exactly. Exactly. Hey. So, so The Good Collar, that's actually your most recent work.
[00:36:34] Unknown:
Yes. So what was the inspiration behind that story?
[00:36:37] Unknown:
It was actually a dream, believe it or not. I dream really heavy, very vividly, like like, almost like, you know, movies or TV. I I have very and I remember a lot of my dreams. Mhmm. And either I keep a pad a a pad and a pencil or a pen next to my bed, or I I wake up, and I'll put it in the notes portion of my phone. And it's like, oh, hey. Oh, wow. That'd be a great, like, plot, you know, blah blah blah. And I just I woke up one morning after having a dream. It's like, I probably was watching Dexter. I used to watch Dexter a lot when that was on. Yeah. And I thought to myself, what if Dexter was the police chaplain?
[00:37:26] Unknown:
That's interesting. A cool twist. Yep. Yeah. That's that's pretty interesting.
[00:37:30] Unknown:
Everybody loves him. He's a great guy. Mhmm. Nobody's gonna suspect that he's a freaking serial killer vigil vigilante. So it it just started forming. And the more I wrote it, the more it came to life. Interesting. That's that's wild.
[00:37:48] Unknown:
And what is any aspect of that story from a real experience though? Or is that just strictly based on a dream?
[00:37:54] Unknown:
Mostly a dream, believe it or not. And then as you start writing, obviously, you know, like the police stuff, you know, that's all from, you know, from work, you know, from stuff that I've done Oh, sure. Whatever. You know? Explaining what an assembly is and, you know, and, of course, the main character is a sergeant. Go figure. You know? Yeah. Weird. Right? So, you know, that's in charge of a gang squad, and I had a gang squad for a little while and, you know, etcetera, etcetera. Okay. And, you know, you're pulling either consciously or subconsciously from all of your experiences that there's no getting around that. That. And I've had a lot of cool experiences, so it's it just started flowing. And then before I know it, I'm like, oh my god. This is really cool. You know? It's a mixture of if John Wick met the death wish with a little bit of Dexter and had a baby, and boom, there you go. That's great. I like that.
[00:38:46] Unknown:
That's that's great. So, now I know I know you also do consultations, right, with other crime writers, screenwriters. Yes. What are some of the biggest mistakes you try to help them to avoid?
[00:38:58] Unknown:
Well, you know, we only have, like, twenty minutes left. So Yeah. I mean, I there could be a whole show. Yeah. I know. I know. It's it's finding that balance of reality and making it palatable for your audience. So for example, you know, it's like, okay. Cool car chase. Most car chases last about anywhere from two or three minutes. Longest one I've ever been in was over an hour. Okay. And that's just unheard of. Yeah. Just unheard of. And, okay, you get into this chase, maybe you say it's five minutes. And, you know, back remember, I I started before body cameras, squad cameras. You know? It's like, you know, how fast are you going? Oh, 60 times two maybe. Yeah. But I'm not gonna tell the dispatcher that. You know? That kinda No. You can't.
No. And you have this big chase, blah blah blah. Get the bad guy. Well, now you're gonna be sitting down and doing, I don't know, six to eight hours of, paperwork. Mhmm. You know, obviously, you're not gonna have that in your book or your movie because people are gonna fall asleep. Sure. You know? Or, you know, oh, this guy, you know, he's got asthma. Well, we gotta take him to the hospital, get him medically cleared. That's gonna take a few hours. I mean, we have that saying of, you know, you catch them, you clean them. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. Something very similar to that. Yeah. Yeah. It's all fun and games until, you know, you gotta put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard. Now this is where the work starts or the aggravation. Like I said, oh, I've got asthma. Oh, I'm a diabetic. Oh, okay.
Off to the hospital, we go. Or he was banged up a little bit, you know, or what have you. And you're like, that's the thing. What people have to understand is when you mean in custody, that means you're responsible for their health and well-being as well. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that.
[00:40:56] Unknown:
Yes. They they think that in custody just means that you're okay. You're under arrest and you're going to jail. That's not what it means. No.
[00:41:02] Unknown:
Not at all. So yeah. But you still have to make it somewhat believable. One of my favorite crime shows is, Southland. Okay. That was a really good show. And and me and my buddies from work would be as, like, yeah. This is, like, spot on except for the fact that after you shoot somebody, you're not gonna be back in your squad car later eating donuts and smoking and joking. That's True. Yeah. Not gonna happen. You know? You're gonna be riding the pine for six months to a year sometimes. Easily. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's and you're gonna be sweating, and all kinds of horrible stuff is gonna be happening to you. Mhmm. And it could be the the most justified, you know, like, lethal force encounter, but it messes with you. It messes with your family. It messes, you know, your kids.
Everybody goes through it together, and it sucks. Nobody wants to go through that. But, you know, being a boss, I I was involved in seven of them as a boss. And the last two, I was a block away when they happened. So, I mean, it just it's crazy. But, you know, again, that's probably one of the biggest mistakes that I see, you know, along with, you know it's like, okay, guns. They don't have unlimited ammunition. I just I got a kick out of, you know, it's like somebody's shooting a, you know, a Remington eight seventy pump shotgun, and they've got, like, 50 rounds coming out of that bad weather.
How did that happen? And they or they're, like, racking, you know, the slide on the shotgun as they're, like, approaching, you know, like a bad guy in a building or something like that, and they're doing it, like, two or three times. And I'm like, the shell should be flying out of the ejector right now. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. You know? Or, you know, somebody gets shot and they fly, you know, 50 feet in the air. You know? It's like, no. The body crumbles after getting shot. Yeah. Yeah. It It might stumble or crumble. You don't go up, you know, again, you don't go through a plate glass window. You don't do I mean, but, hey, it's Hollywood. You know, that's Well, they have to do something to keep it entertaining, you know. Correct. And like I said before, that's that balance. Yeah.
[00:43:12] Unknown:
So you host, like I said, cops and writers podcast. You're a podcaster. You have this huge Facebook group that you, that you, maintain, for writers. What kind of conversations actually, take place in that type of space?
[00:43:26] Unknown:
In the Facebook group? Yeah. Yeah. Whew. You know, it just pretty much like I was just talking about, people ask about guns because it's an international group, and some of them have never even held a gun before. You know, there are some countries that have incredibly strict gun control laws. They've never held one, let alone fire a gun before. And they ask it. It's like, what kind of kick would a SIG, you know, p three twenty have when it's not firing it by itself? You know? Of course. You're firing it. And, you know, I wouldn't say, well, you know, you have to hold on to it, but it's not gonna come flying out of your hand, you know, or whatever. You know? That's so gun quest technical stuff, would I need a warrant, you know, to search this car?
You know? Or what happens, you know, when there's a fire? Does there a a state fire marshal? Do they come out immediately? You know? Who takes care of this? And, okay. This guy is fighting, you know. If I got shot one time in the leg, you know, could I keep on fighting? You know, just technical questions like that. A lot of that kind of stuff. So have have you seen,
[00:44:35] Unknown:
have you seen a shift in how people, perceive law enforcement now, through these storytelling platforms that you're with?
[00:44:43] Unknown:
Not really. Again, this is international.
[00:44:47] Unknown:
Mhmm.
[00:44:50] Unknown:
And I was talking to a British police police officer, and he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that we have guns on our hips. They have armed response units in England, and they have a very limited amount in Ireland. Mhmm. And there's a huge controversy right now in Ireland trying to figure out if they're gonna allow the police to carry a gun on duty. And, you know, for me, it's like, well, it's a no brainer. Yeah. Of course. You know, that'd be like a carpenter going to work without a hammer. Yeah. I I It's another tool on your belt. Honestly, when
[00:45:30] Unknown:
I I still carry now. When I when I leave the when I leave the house, if if I don't have it with me, I feel like there's something very, very important missing from, you know. Yeah. I I get that. I mean, as a matter of fact, it's Texas, Everybody's got a gun. Of course. I mean, I'm sitting here in the studio, and I got it sitting here right next to me. And I was Absolutely. Well, I wouldn't. See that.
[00:45:50] Unknown:
You know? There you go. So,
[00:45:52] Unknown:
you know, it's never far. It's it's always Sure. It's always close at hand. Actually, I wanted to ask you about this this incident that happened in New York City, the other day. You're familiar with it? The the the guy who just, walked down the street with, with an AR 15, walked into a to a office building and and just decided to to pop off?
[00:46:14] Unknown:
Oh my god. Yeah. It just illustrates that there's there's some wacky doodle people out there, man. And you just don't know what's going on in their brain. What I
[00:46:26] Unknown:
And, boy, it just, that's frightening. What I find fascinating about it though is coming from New York, knowing how strict New York is with firearms and especially within city limits, how this person was just walking down the street
[00:46:42] Unknown:
with this weapon out in the out in the open. And You would think it'd be a hundred nine one one calls immediately. Nothing. Holy shit. Nothing. This guy is walking around with it looked like a gold plated, like, AR, you know, 15. It looked like something that a gangster would be carrying. Yeah. Yeah. It's it it was the strangest thing, and and,
[00:46:59] Unknown:
you know, just just watching the reaction, you know, from politicians mostly. I don't I don't wanna get too political, you know, but, you have, you have all these politicians now trying to spin this thing into, well, this is why we need gun control. Well, you you you have the most gun controlled state in the entire country, for crying out loud. You know? And New York City is a gun free zone.
[00:47:22] Unknown:
It is. But what people fail to realize is you're more likely to get killed by a rock or scissors or a knife Yeah. Than you are with an AR 15, statistically. Mhmm. You know, they look big, they're scary, and they're they've been used in some very high profile stuff, you know, especially if it's like a school shooting or something like that. Oh my god. You know, it's this it's this machine gun, you know, blah blah blah. And it's like, no. It's not a machine gun. A lot more people are killed with pistols. A lot more. Yeah. But gun free zones and I mean, we could beat this to death, but the way it works is you could have all the the gun control laws in the world, but if you don't enforce them and enforce them vigorously, nothing's gonna change.
We have gun control laws. I mean, in the city of Milwaukee, if you're if you get caught toting a gun, you don't have a CCW or an HR two eighteen Mhmm. You'll get probation maybe. Now if they bump that up to, okay, five years in prison, no ifs, ands, or buts, that's without anything previous. Guess what would start happening? And, again, in the city, I've I've responded on shit. When I first started, we're a city of 600,000, and we would go through about we're close one year to 300 homicides and right around a thousand nonfatal shootings. So people are getting shot left and right. Yeah. But say, I shoot you, and even if I have a record, I might spend a year or two in prison, maybe.
It's a slap on the wrist. Yeah. Then guess what happens? They go out and do it all. You know? If I shoot you and you live and they prove that I did that, why not have a ten year minimal with no chance of parole? I swear. But there'd be a pain point, and that pain point, nobody wants to go down that road. You know, just I'll give you a quick example. I got a buddy that lives in Belfast. I was in Belfast on vacation. Mhmm. Long story. Nice. In 02/2019. And I said, hey. Let's go for a a pint, Liam. And he says, yeah. Sounds great. I'll pick you up. So he picks me up. We go to a bar or pub, and I've got a pint, and he's got this, like, little dinky, like, eight ounce glass. And I'm like, Liam, what are you doing? He says, oh, they don't mess around here. Says, if I get busted for OWI, he's like, they take my van.
I need my van to work. I'm like, they take your van. He says, oh, yeah. They'll take your car. They'll take your license. Like, I don't know for how long, but it was some crazy number. Wow. And they don't need probable cause to stop you. They have checkpoints there in Ireland in other countries Wow. Where it's like, hey. You know what? I'm just gonna stop you with no problem, no suspicion, no nothing.
[00:50:25] Unknown:
Wow.
[00:50:26] Unknown:
You can never get away with that here. So so guess what? Guess who doesn't drink and drive?
[00:50:32] Unknown:
That guy?
[00:50:33] Unknown:
Yep. Exactly. So that again, there would be some you'd have a lot of people in prison for a long time, but that ebb and flow would come to a point where it's like, okay. Yeah. If you wanna carry a pistol, you gotta be legal. Mhmm. Simple as that. And if you break the law, there's heavy consequences.
[00:50:57] Unknown:
Is, is is Milwaukee or or or Wisconsin itself a, constitutional carry kit state or no? No. Okay.
[00:51:06] Unknown:
It's not constitutional carry, but we do have open carry. Okay. You can open carry, and they just got CCW maybe about eight, nine years ago, thereabouts. And that was you know, one side was saying, oh my god. It's gonna be Dodge City. Everyone's gonna get shot up. And the Yeah. Side of the hour blah blah. And guess what? Almost nothing changed. Of course not. Because
[00:51:32] Unknown:
I I think the the only the only thing that really gun control does or or laws restricting gun control is just makes it easier for criminals to obtain the firearm and and to perpetrate the the act of violence on an unarmed person. Because, you know, most people are law abiding people, and they're and they're gonna follow the law. They're gonna follow the law, especially gun owners. Gun owners, I think, are the most responsible people, and I I I know I'm not trying to generalize it. I I there's good and bad everywhere, but I think people gun owners are probably the most responsible people there are because there is so much at stake. You know. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, so the the only thing you're doing is restricting, you know, the good guys.
Good people with the bean.
[00:52:18] Unknown:
I agree. And what was that incident? It was a couple days ago. It was that at a Walmart where a guy was on a stabbing spree? Yeah. And the guy who stopped him had had a CCW Mhmm. Held him at gunpoint until the cops got there. That's a perfect
[00:52:34] Unknown:
of a good guy with a gun Yeah. That stopped, you know, carnage. And it took the I think it took the police it took the police, I think, twenty minutes to get there. And he was able and he and he subdued he subdued the perpetrator in in less than two minutes.
[00:52:50] Unknown:
Yep. So just Think about what could have happened if the guy wasn't there with a gun. Absolutely. Simple as that. Absolutely.
[00:52:57] Unknown:
So, so if someone's listening today and they feel kinda stuck in their careers, or their retirement, what advice would you wanna give them?
[00:53:07] Unknown:
I guess, for me, you know, for most cops, you know, you're a servant. You were of service. And that never really leaves you, and it opens doors that you never thought would be opened before. What you're doing right now, Joe, you're you're you're providing a service. You're entertaining. You're informing. You know, you're providing a service. Mhmm. And that will lead to other things, if it hasn't already. You know, that's that's stay active. You know, keep your brain and your body active, and do hard things. Never stop doing hard things. Put yourself in an like, in uncomfortable positions. I mean, don't jump out of a bus. Don't, you know, jump out of an airplane without a parachute. Nothing stupid like that. But if you're at the gym, put that extra plate on there. See what happens.
You know,
[00:54:04] Unknown:
just challenge yourself. You gotta keep challenging yourself. That's something that very similar to what my dad would say all the time. My dad always say stuff like that. You know, don't don't settle for don't settle for mediocrity. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, always try always push yourself harder than than than what you think you can handle. Because you'll be surprised how You can handle more. Yeah. You'll be surprised how much you can handle. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So if you could partner with any crime writer past or present and co write a book, who would it be?
[00:54:33] Unknown:
Oh, boy. I I do like Michael Connelly. Okay. But I It's gotta be an Irish thing. I don't know. Yeah. Absolutely. But, you know, Joseph Wamba, you know, if I could go back in time and hang out with Joe, yeah, that'd be pretty freaking cool.
[00:54:49] Unknown:
Alright. Well, we're we're up on the hour already, and, you already answered. I had one question that I was gonna ask you too here, but, you already answered that one earlier, so I'm not gonna go and retread that. It's like, like George Patton says, you know, he said or he said, I should say, he's gone now. You know, I don't like to pay for the same real estate twice, so we're not gonna go back and and re re ask this to the question. But, why don't you tell us where we could, find out, more information about your books, your podcast, all the great work that you're doing online?
[00:55:21] Unknown:
Everything is cops and writers. My podcast, the Facebook group, my website is all cops and writers, and then the book, The Good Collar Group. There it is.
[00:55:32] Unknown:
Make the Pitch.
[00:55:34] Unknown:
There it is. Alright. That's available on I'm Amazon exclusive right now. Okay. Great.
[00:55:40] Unknown:
And, let's see. So, I think we pretty much covered everything here, my friend. Tell you what, I I really would like to talk to you outside the show at some point, so I'm gonna email you. I think I already sent you in in the in the pod match thing. I think you already have my number. So, when you get a chance, just shoot me a text or something, and I'll I'll reach out to you. I'd love to talk to you, share some stories, and and, Yeah. Absolutely. And pick the brain. No. That sounds great. Thank you so much for having me. Hey, this was great, brother. I I appreciate and God bless you. Thank you for your years of service. I I want to make sure I said that to you. And, you know, just, you know, keep doing what you're doing, man. You're doing great work. I really appreciate it. Alright. Thank you so much. Alright. Patrick O'Donnell, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much, brother. And, with that, we're gonna take take our, break here. And when we come back, we'll, connect up with our second hour guest. But in the meantime, folks, don't forget that this is a live show weeknights 7PM central time, Saturdays at three, Sundays at six. And, you could find us on, of course, all of your favorite podcast platforms like Apple, Spotify, and also on the modern podcast two point o apps like fountain.fm and podcast guru, pod verse, and so many more. So make sure you check us out there as well. Also, we we are streaming on Rumble. We don't do we don't do YouTube.
We don't do YouTube. Why? Because they already struck gave us a few strikes because we expressed an opinion that they did not like. So, we don't, we don't waste our time with YouTube. They can go pound sand for all I care. We're very happy here with Rumble. And, of course, don't forget to check out our sponsors, podhome.fm and Ezra Healing. And, we'll be back from this break here very very short very very so shortly, I should say. I'm messing up my English language here tonight. And, so, yeah. We'll be back. Stay with us. Don't go anywhere. Alright, folks.
Welcome back. This is the Joe Russo. First hour is in the books. I wanna say thank you very much to Patrick O'Donnell for spending that first hour with us. Hope you guys found that entertaining, to say the least. Nah. That was great. We had a great time. But technical problems aside, we had a good time. And, as I'm looking up here at the monitor, I see our feed is kind of wonky. So I'm not sure what's going on tonight. But, folks but, folks, second hour, we're gonna get started here here momentarily. But first, before we do that, just wanna talk to you a little bit about another one of our sponsors, Podhome. Podhome.fm.
Podhome is the most modern and easy to use podcast hosting platform that is out there today. Use it to publish your episodes, enhance your audio, automatically generate transcripts, chapters, titles, show notes, and more. Folks, you can even podcast live through Podhome. Podhome's a great platform. You also get a website with Podhome, with your subscription. And you get all of this for one affordable subscription of $15.99 a month. That's $15.99 a month. Now, I was with another big time podcast platform, and, man, I was getting not even half of this for for triple that price.
So podhome.fm. Podhome is our home for our audio feed. It is a fantastic platform. You need to try it out. $15.99 a month, and if you sign up today, you get thirty month thirty days free. Thirty months. Barry, you'd kill me. Thirty days free. So So check them out. Podhome.fm. That's podhome.fm. Alright. Now, second hour. We have a guest coming on here who has walked two seemingly opposite paths. Spending forty years as a TV executive while also being a devout evangelical Christian. Stuart Kellogg holds a degree in broadcast journalism from Syracuse and a master's from Wesley Biblical Seminary.
His life's work spans newsrooms, pulpits, classrooms, and now the front lines of the pro life movement. Stewart is the author of The Post COVID Church, an action plan to thrive, not just survive, and host of over 75 podcast episodes by the same name. Most recently, he launched Students in Action Building Pro Life Leaders, a movement equipping young people to engage meaningfully and courageously on one of the most emotional and high stakes issues of our time. He's also a Colson Fellow, a teacher, and a frequent speaker on worldview faith on worldview, faith, and media bias.
Folks like to welcome Stewart Kellogg to our show tonight. Stewart Kellogg, are you out there, sir? Stewart, are you out there? Alright. I see Stuart in the in the in the in the waiting room. Once again, my friends, the the joys of doing a live show. Alright. Now, while we wait for Stewart to, to come on in here, how about we talk a little bit about how you can help us out here with the show. Now, all technical glitches aside today, we are, doing the very best we can to and here he is. Alright. Stuart, got it straightened out? Gotta turn your mic on.
Turn your mic on. I can't hear you.
[01:05:03] Unknown:
Put my mic on. Golly. Alright. There you go. Sorry, Joe. No. You're fine. You're good. And Forty years of TV. It never happened.
[01:05:13] Unknown:
Well, look Until I come on your show. You should have you should have seen what happened at the start of this show. We had we had And I need to move over a little bit. Just a pinch. Yeah. Okay. On the split screen. Unless unless you don't want people to really see you, it may be Oh, there we go. I apologize. With with with all we had it all set up ahead of time and Well, with the way the the way the show has been engineer. Well, with the way the show has been running since the start of this today, you know, I I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't wanna show your face on it. So No. Not at all. I love listening to it, by the way. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I really do. So, so so, Stewart, so let's see. Usually, I like to ask a couple of quick warm up questions, kinda get you loose in the bullpen, you know? Right.
So what's something that most peep what's something most people don't know about you, but probably should know about you?
[01:05:58] Unknown:
I used to be a shoe salesman. Really?
[01:06:01] Unknown:
They still have those?
[01:06:03] Unknown:
My name is Kellogg. I'm related to the serial people.
[01:06:07] Unknown:
As I like to say, I'm related, but not close enough to do me any good. Well, I was gonna say I was gonna say, well, you know, I got a a couple of complaints then because, you know, Kellogg put out some of my favorite cereals, and I get boxes are getting smaller and smaller and smaller. The price is getting up and up and up. Well, we don't we don't get much for that. Another neat part that's connected to that, Joe, you'll see that,
[01:06:25] Unknown:
my daughter was miss Mississippi back in 02/2003.
[01:06:28] Unknown:
Congratulations.
[01:06:29] Unknown:
And, we got permission from Kellogg to mock up a special k cereal box with her picture on it with the, the crown and all. So that was pretty cool. That's awesome. That's great. That's and congratulations to her. That's that's fantastic. That was fun. So, alright then,
[01:06:47] Unknown:
what's your, what's your favorite? Your go to beverage to unwind at the end of the day?
[01:06:52] Unknown:
Yeah. Your your guests all have really, and you, have cool woods. And I was thinking, I said, I think he's gonna ask me this. Mhmm. This is going to be the least exciting of any of your guests. I doubt it. Green tea. That I've heard I've heard I've heard less exciting than that. Oh, okay. Alright. I love my green tea. It's good antioxidants. That's it. It is. I'm a stevia. I don't don't drink alcohol, but, that though I enjoyed ginger beer. And I I was on a cruise with my wife, and I said, I like ginger ale. And they said, we don't have any way of ginger beer. And I said, I don't drink alcohol. They said, no. No. It's soda. I had never had it. Oh, it's good. It is. I've I've had it, had it a couple of times. Ginger beer is wonderful, man. I love that. And maybe did you have it with something else? No. No. To make it a dark and stormy or something? No. No. No. No. No. It it not not that time, but,
[01:07:41] Unknown:
I do like to mix, I like to put some, some some Bombay Sapphire gin and, a fresh squeeze of lime, and top it off with the ginger ale over ice, which is very very good. The problem with it is is that it the ginger ale is kinda sweet with the lime, so you don't realize just how much you've had of it until you try to get up. Yeah. So So yeah. That that's the problem because it it's it's but it's very refreshing. Seriously, it is. I I know you don't drink, but, it is a very refreshing drink. It it kinda, you know, has a nice little In moderation. In moderation, of course. Yes. Absolutely. Got it. Yeah.
So, like, tonight, I like you probably heard already. So, I'm a bourbon guy. I like my bourbons. So he is. Tonight, I am drinking coffee, and I had some blue stuff that I was drinking that you didn't get to see. But,
[01:08:40] Unknown:
I've heard you talk about it. It sounds yeah. I I haven't gone deeper, but I heard you describe it, and I I was trying to get my head around it. It's quite good. Quite. So, today today, I was drinking, it's, it's my ultra methylene blue
[01:08:54] Unknown:
that, that I actually we actually have an affiliate link with the alex jones store dot com slash joe, so you can check it out for yourself. There's a link right there up on your screen. And, you can get yourself a bottle. It's excellent. I I so I I take, I drink it, once a day. Usually once a day. Sometimes, I feel like I need it more than once. But, I and tonight, I had it with just some sparkling water. Nothing nothing extravagant. And, it is phenomenal. I I love it. It's it's it has it affects everybody differently. So some people get this burst of energy, some people get this they feel like this, almost like an electrical tingling sensation and and throughout their bodies. I don't get any of that. What it does for me is it kinda, it kinda puts me to like this almost a very even meditative contemplative type mindset, mind frame.
Some people say it clears brain fog, does not clear brain fog for me. It does does the opposite sometimes. But people have varied reactions to it, and it but honestly, if you're if you've never taken this, never tried it, it's not a drug. It's it's it's it's a supplement. But, check with your doctor first before you take it because if you are on certain medications, like like antidepressants and things like that, it can have a negative, effect on you. So, so make sure you check with your doctor first. I don't wanna get anybody sick. And, honestly, I I take a lot of supplements through through that through that link myself. I wouldn't be I wouldn't be pushing it if I didn't try them. And they they work I take the Ultimate Turmeric. I take the, the Irish Sea Moss. I take the Methylene Blue. I I do the Shilajit and all that stuff. Great stuff. The supplements are fantastic, and, really good quality stuff. So, anybody interested, just the alex jones store dot com slash joe. 10% of your sales come right back here to the show and help us fund this magnificent disaster of a podcast that we have sometimes. I'm glad to be part of it. Yeah. Right. It's great to have you here. So, so so you you've worked in in in TV. You've worked in seminary and now in youth leadership. What's been the most surprising career pivot?
[01:11:17] Unknown:
The most surprising to me is I was on air for a while. In fact, because I was on air, it's how I met my wife. Thanks. I I was a reporter. She was a teacher. Just a story at her school. So that was the great thing. But the pivot came when I said I really I saw a ceiling for talent wise, but I really wanted to manage and lead. And so I said, let me get the worst job in the newsroom, which is assignment editor in a TV newsroom. It's deciding everything, and I pitched that. And so that was that was the big pivot that got me on the road, and then I I moved up through news management and a lot of different markets and then ended up in in station general management. That was the the most fun pivot. I was a news director in Dallas, was my last news director job, and went and became GM in Jackson, Mississippi for Hearst, Television. They bought us a couple years later what became Hearst Television and, just love running a station, and that was terrific. And and really enjoyed the engagement, in this case, with ABC. I I had a lot of, discussions from what we call flyover country. You know what that is. Of course. Yes. These guys are in in New York and LA, and we're in flyover country about how the rest of the country thinks.
And, I'm not sure it did any good, but but, I I enjoyed engaging with them about the zeitgeist, if you will, in those places versus the rest of of the world. And what I found too, this idea of an evangelical Christian cartoonist, I mean, they didn't know any. You know? So it was it's a great bishop field, so I enjoyed it in that way as well. Alright. So you you you spent decades in in mainstream media. You also walked
[01:13:04] Unknown:
very I I've been I checked out some of your, some of your podcasts. I checked out some of the shows that you've been on previously, and, you talk incredibly detailed and incredibly passionate about your Christian walk and your faith. But working in mainstream media for as long as you did and and and also with your Christian faith, how do those worlds intersect? Or or did they clash?
[01:13:28] Unknown:
There there were some some clashes, I had and and not with her. Hurst was a terrific company in the sense that, even, for example, my last ABC meeting. I mean, my boss's boss, so the head of the whole was there, and and I took on ABC for they were putting out a show that was backed by a virulent anti Christian. I just knew this fellow's writings. And so I stood up and go with David Duke. You know? Yeah. That that's where this guy was on the left versus the right. They didn't know how to answer. Finally, the head of the network came. I said, no. We wouldn't, and here's why. But this show, which was from a, you know, a strident pro gay, message, not that she you know, you're not gonna have characters. That's fine. But and the thought of who was behind it. And I say that to say, my boss and my boss's boss probably didn't do it with me, but they said, god bless you. I'm glad you did it. You are speaking for a part of the country that they didn't know. So those were the clashes. Had some internal, not not with Hearst, but, just some of the, you know, in engagement or thoughts. I can tell you on, programming, but I was given some, freedom.
There were some programs that I would not buy. I mean, the network had no no control over, but there were syndicated shows. And, and and I gave in this case, it was Hirsch to they said, we think it'll do ratings and all. And I said, I I don't want on the station, and I don't think it will be a plus for our image and our brand that we're trying to build as a stronger local news. And, I loved it that they gave, the freedom to make that call. Yeah. I was I was gonna say that. A good one. That I was gonna say that. So there's some conflicts, but but I also it was very important to me, and I'll just give you an example of something I I did not do. There's somebody that asked saying, you know, why don't you lead a bible study here? Well, I didn't. And I'll tell you what, because I'm the boss. And I didn't feel those who wouldn't, for example, be a part of it may think, am I gonna lose points and that sort of thing? And I I know there are people who have different views on it, but that was an example. I said, no. I I was fine in sharing my faith in what I did, but I was wasn't going to do that, for example. So, you know, they're they're lines, and I made them, and I think I could defend them in a way we would.
[01:15:59] Unknown:
And and the fact that that you worked for an organization that actually considered your opinion on these things before con before just flat out saying no, we're going forward with this. Mhmm. I mean, that's great. And that that shows a lot of respect also, for your convictions on those things. And so that that's that's huge. You don't get that a lot
[01:16:19] Unknown:
No. Unfortunately. In the media. And and I gotta tell you, I just love to, working for Hearst. It's just a a class two feet inbounds. I mean, there are examples of where our company turned ourselves in because there was a violation that no the FCC would never have found, and it cost us. And I was just so proud of, David Barrett at the time running the company. I said, man, there there it is. I mean, it cost us oversight. It cost us a fine you know, that's a big deal. It would never have been found, but we did it. So that was an example. He used the term football term, two feet in balance. Don't even make it close. So I gotcha. So that helped because it reinforced it, and that's not always the case in our business or any other business. Yeah. And I and I understand exactly where you're coming from with that. So, so what led you to step into into seminary and Christian teaching after after working in broadcasting for a lifetime, basically? Well, it was it was in I was brought up, I call it functionally Unitarian.
We we went to church, but it was a a mainline Presbyterian Northern church, and then moved to Alabama. Okay. Syracuse, New York to Mobile, Alabama, the heart of the Bible Belt. And people talking about relationship and trusting in Christ, and I thought of him. Yes. He's part of the Bible. We talk about him twice a year, but what's the and that just drew me in. And, and I do talk about it. You I'm sure you've heard me talk about that spring day in 1978 in my apartment on my knees saying I trust you, Christ, to turn my life to you. So that was that step, but it was really as I moved along and we moved to a lot of places, finally going in Mississippi and being part of small groups, being part of a little more intense, and then connecting with a fellow who did, doctor Matt Friedman, who had who did commentary. We had a liberal and a conservative that and he was the conservative that did a wonderful part of the the news, and he was seminary, professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary. I was at a Methodist church. I hear about this John Wesley guy. Yeah. And I said, hey, man. Do you have some books? He brought me about seven or nine books of them, and it just got me. And then he said, hey. Why don't you try out seminary? And my wife looked at me like, are you gonna become a minister? I said, I'm too impatient for that, but I wanna learn. And so the and it was a it was six years. It was nights and weekends, took a long time. You know, sixty hour masters.
But and then opening my eyes that next year, studying under Chuck Colson. And a lot of your listeners know and some don't, who are a little younger, but Chuck Colson, he was, worked for president. Nixon was his hatchet man That's right. And, came to Christ right before serving prison and then started prison fellowship and then got into the Christian worldview saying these these jails will continue to be filled up if we don't change people's hearts and how they look at the whole world. And so I love
[01:19:16] Unknown:
engaging with Christian worldview. Which So that that's how all those came together. Yeah. Which is which is absolutely true. I mean, look, I you know, my testimony is very simply this, you know, I I grew up in a predominantly Roman Catholic family. My uncle, who I idolized, he was the first in our family to leave the Catholic church and go off into another denomination. I'm not gonna say which one he went to because I I've come to learn a few things about that that that trouble me greatly. And, I and I don't even think he still practices in that in that particular denomination anymore.
But he but he went in full bore. He went to bible school. He went to seminary. Became a pastor for that, that denomination. And I idolized my uncle growing up. And then, so, what he would do is he would come home from from seminary and, on his breaks, and he would bring all his textbooks, and he would leave them from the previous semesters. And he would leave them there, and and I would read them. And I'm maybe eight years old, 10 years old, in that range, 12 years old. And what he would also do is he would take my Catholic catechism books, and he would rewrite them. So so I would I would get to catechism class, and and I would open up my book, and there's a big red x through the through pages, and with stapled little notes attached to it saying, this is not how it happened, and then he rewrote it. And, of course, you know, I would get in trouble for that.
But, but but the things they taught me stayed with me, and I I became very, very much of a of a thorn in the side to, some folks at at the at the church. To the so much so to the point that when, when I was going to make communion, my first communion, and and the priest said, you have to come into confession and and confess your sins. I said, why? What do I have to tell you for? And, you know, he didn't let the conversation go beyond that too much. He just basically took me by the arm, dragged me outside, handed me my mother, and said, we don't need his kind here. And, my mom was like, okay fine. He doesn't have to come back here again. And, that was it. And, I kinda branched off on my own, but I I looked up to my uncle so much and, I followed him in everything he did. And then, I asked him one time. I said, you know, uncle Joe? His name is Joe too. I said, uncle Joe. I said, I wanna I wanna join your church. I wanna be what you are. He goes, no, you don't.
[01:21:43] Unknown:
I was like, what?
[01:21:44] Unknown:
He knew too much. Yeah. At that point, yeah. I think I think it was starting to turn at that point. And, he was like, no, you don't. It's not for you. You don't wanna do this. Okay? And then, so I cut that kinda left me in the lurch, and I just kinda went about my life from that point on going forward, believing what I wanted to I used to tell people I'm the Pope of the Worldwide Church of Joe. You know? Yeah. I I believe what I believe. It's a little dangerous, but I Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, certainly is. It certainly isn't until, until, February. The, in, like, June 2000, I got reassigned to a new command.
And, I knew the the commanding officer there, and, he he was an academy instructor when I went through the academy. And, so I met with him before I started my assignments, and and and he said to me, Joe, I'm glad you're here. And he goes he goes, I need you on the overnights. Is that is it are you okay with that? Yeah. I'm fine. That's that's that's good. He goes, okay. Great. He goes, but, unfortunately, it's your turn. My turn for what? You have to ride with Gail. Okay. Who's Gail? Officer Gail? Who's Gail? I don't I don't wanna say because, well, she's one of those born again Christian types. She's gonna talk your ear off all night long. Everybody else has had to sit through it. Now it's your turn. I was like, okay. I I I can handle this. You know, I'm good. I'm pretty secure in what I believe and don't believe. I'm good. You know? And, man, we first night, I I I walked out of the locker room. She came walking out of the female locker room, and she looked at me and she goes, are you saved?
I'm like, not now. Okay? I'm just not in the mood for this. It's my first overnight in a long time. Let's not do it. She goes, no. We're gonna talk about this. And the whole night, eight hours in that patrol car. Eight hours. All we did was argue. And I don't mean argue like like fight bickering. Debate. You know, argue. Yeah. So, and that went on for a while, and then, one day she said to me, she goes, hey, there's this Christian radio station, you know, you might like it. It's, she gave me the call sign for it. I was like, okay, I'll check it out. So I would listen to it on the way home, and I would hear guys like J Vernon McGee, and and and guys like that. And I'm listening to this man preach and teach, and I'm like, this is so relevant to me in my life right now, not knowing that J. Vernon McGee has been long since long since gone. You know, he's he's been home with the Lord for a long time at that point.
And I'm like, you know, it's just so relevant to me, but it sparked something. Got to my house, and I went into my attic, and I started tearing boxes apart looking for my bible. And, you know, my wife at the time, she was like, you have a bible? I'm like, yes, I have a bible. And you're tearing the whole place apart. Somewhere. Yeah. And I found this old dog eared, you know, bible that that my uncle had gotten me when I was eight years old. And I found that thing, and I started going through it, and I started doing, like, bible studies and just teaching myself. And one night, I decided it was a Sunday night. I said, you know what? I always listen to the same traffic reports, always the same mess getting into the city. So let me just see what's on that Christian station tonight.
So I put it on and there was a guy in there, and I'm I'm giving you the Reader's Digest version of of the whole thing. So I so I hear this guy preaching, and he's teaching a message on hell and who's going there. And, I'm sitting there in traffic, and I'm listening to this, and it just seems like at the end of every sentence, I heard that little voice in the back of the head said, I'm talking to you, Joe. This is for you. You know? And it literally scared the hell out of me. So I, I wrote down the phone number. It was one of those call in shows. You were able to, you know, call up, ask questions and stuff. Like, he would stop preaching, teaching whatever he was talking about, answer your questions, get right back to the lesson. But I chickened out. I didn't do it. I didn't call. I waited. I looked him up online, and, did some research on the on the church first and and all that. And I was like, okay. I read over some of that. I could agree with that. I could agree with this and this and this.
I called him. And it must have sounded like an idiot when I called, Hey. I heard you on the radio. Yeah. But, man, he he he called me back. We were on the we stayed on the phone for for almost an hour. And he invited me to church, and I was like, well, I'm not coming to church because like, while I walk into your building, it's gonna fall down. So let's how about I come to your office first? I was like, well, we don't have a church of our own. We we rent space at a community school in in in Lower Manhattan. I was like, oh, really? Where? And he told me where it was and I was like, you're kidding me. So, my I My job is right across the street from you guys, basically. It's like a block away. So, we met. Decided to meet up for to have dinner before work one night, and I met him, and we sat down, and we started talking, and I took out this had this big backpack loaded with every book that I could stuff into there. And I took it, and I dumped it out on the table at the restaurant, and I was like, this is what I'm studying. And he looked at it.
Okay. He just pushed it all off the table, took out his King James Bible, put it on the table, said, this is what you need, not that. And I was like, okay. I'm hooked. Right there. I'm done. You know, nobody ever spoke to me like that. So I was like, okay. Teach. And he just took me down. I'm sure you're familiar with the Romans Road. So we we, you know, he started giving me the gospel and and, looking at but I'm looking at the clock and like, man, I gotta get to work. You know? So so he walks back with me and he's like, do you have five more minutes? Just like, I just wanna show you just a couple of quick things. Yeah. Okay. Sure. We went out to this pier. It's Pier 34 off the off off of Canal Street and West Street. It's the third bench off the front of the front gate.
Sat down on that bench. Every distraction you can possibly imagine was taking place. I had some guy in a bike riding around circles around. It's all in his book by the way. It's it's it's riding in circles around us, cursing at us, spitting at us, you know, calling us all kinds of names and and all that stuff. And we're just, you know, focused in this. And my law enforcement experience is like, I'm looking at this guy as a threat, you know, as a possible threat. And I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do, but he's he's going through the gospel with me. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this guy hit something on the pier that made him flip over his handlebars, and actually literally crack his skull open.
And, so more distractions. Long story short, the ambulance shows up. I'm trying to direct the scene, that's what I do. You know, I'm trying to direct the whole scene here, and and the pastor, he just very gently just tapped me on the on the elbow. He pulled me away. He was like, what we're doing is more important than what they're doing. He said, they're they're trying to save his life. He goes, I'm trying to save your soul. Wow. So I was like, okay. You know, I just kinda walked away. And we prayed for the guy, and, right there on that period, 07/20/2000, I got down on my knees. I I asked Jesus Christ to save me. I told him what a rotten, low down, dirty, filthy sinner I am, and, and he saved me. And I knew I was saved. At that moment, I I don't I couldn't explain it to you. I couldn't tell you what exactly happened, but I just knew that there was something different. I knew that I was saved. I knew I was forgiven.
And when I went to work that night, my partner, Gail, comes walking out of the locker room, and she looks at me and she doesn't say anything. She just looks at me. She goes, you got saved. Like she point right at me and I was like Wow. I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, you got saved. I'm like, but I don't understand what you're talking about. She goes, don't don't don't let the devil get in there already. You got saved. She goes, it's all over your face. You're glowing. You look different. You're different. You got saved. And I was like, yeah, I did. You know, it was a great night. And, you know, I've been I've been I've been walking with the Lord since since 07/20/2000. Had my good times, my bad times, had my ups and my downs, went all kinds of stuff. But one thing I know is that I know Jesus Christ as my savior. And, and I know that he he died for me on the cross. He he paid for my sins. He he died. He was buried. He rose again the third day, which is the which is the gospel message right there. First Corinthians chapter 15. So, you know, it's, you know, so so it's it's it's an incredible life when you really think about it. And somebody just text me and said shut up and let him speak.
So
[01:29:40] Unknown:
so okay. Alright. Alright. I'll shut up now. Alright. I love your story. Yeah. It's a it's a lot. It's from, you know, it's, you know, Jesus didn't come to make sick man well. He came to make dead man alive. That's right. And that's your story. Amen. Amen. Amen.
[01:29:56] Unknown:
And, I went to bible school. I, you know, I studied the bible. I studied under some some really good men and learned an awful lot. And, I served as an associate pastor of a little independent baptist church up in New York for a little while. When the senior pastor was sick, he asked me to step in and I I did that for him. And, you know, I I've taught bible studies. I I I have a bible study I had a bible study podcast that I was doing for about two or three years, and my Sunday show was a Bible study show. Although, I've, you know, my my my the folks that watch haven't really been getting Bible the last couple of shows because we've been talking about America's Christian heritage. So American history. Yeah. The history. I thought it was fascinating. Oh, they did? And guess what? They don't get taught that in public school. No. They don't. No. No. Not at all. Yeah. That was yeah. That that fasting the yeah. Where where the foundation is. Absolutely. So this this coming Sunday here's a plug. This coming Sunday, we'll be talking about the second amendment. So there will be some bible in this. We're gonna talk about how God is pro gun.
And, we'll we'll we'll have a good conversation about that. So, alright. Enough about me. So what inspired you to launch students in action, building pro life leaders?
[01:31:02] Unknown:
How, I had finished and you mentioned thank you for mentioning the post COVID church. I I started that in the middle of COVID. I was watching churches, some I call turtle churches, hunkering down and just waiting for it to end, and others were leaning in saying, here we are. This is what we're for. And it was a fascinating and so I wrote about it, blogged, did the podcast, and and, videos, and then ended up with the book by the '23, so almost two years ago. I was looking at the numbers as as we do and and sensing you know, I've done 75 podcasts. I I was looking at the sales numbers that and my wife, Beth, as you know, wives tend to cut through the fog, as you mentioned, and and get to it. She said, Stu, people are sick of anything with the word COVID in
[01:31:53] Unknown:
it That's right. By 2023.
[01:31:54] Unknown:
You know? So I said, you're right. And so I was, cutting the grass, and we still cut the grass as you know, down south here in November. And Ohio had just voted. So they were it was now o for seven since Roe got overturned. Ohio voted pretty red state to put abortion rights in the custody. That was o for seven for pro lifers. And I was thinking through my final podcast and, blog and organizing it, and I sensed the Lord. Didn't hear the voice, but I sensed him saying, what are you doing? K. And I just love telling the story. I I tell you what Beth and I give to the pregnancy center, and, I taught I teach about it. And and I sensed him saying, what are you doing?
And finished the lawn, went in, filled out a very long in-depth application to to work at a pregnancy center, which I do, women's care medical center here down. I live right on the Gulf Of Mexico, has four offices, and I am a male advocate. It it took a lot of training and and, discipleship, but I'm now on my own. And so about a third of the women who come in come in with the father, so I I deal with them. Okay. And I was sharing this story with a a friend, Mark McCreary, who's in my small group that Friday morning, said, look. You're shutting down the other you love to write. You love to do it. Why don't you put a program together for students?
This pro life, it's it's a loser. It's a political loser. He's very much he he worked for mayor Giuliani, in fact, back back in New York. I mean, he's so very savvy in in politics, and he's absolutely right. Pro life is a political loser. We've gone from, you know, a pro life, pro choice options in our political party to now pro abortion, pro choice. I mean, just reality. And Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. Said these students need to know it, and so that was my calling and put together this project, students in action building pro life leaders, with teaching modules and ideas on hands on to work with a pregnancy center. Ran it as a pilot at my church with, eight students.
Started it almost exactly a year ago. Ran that project. My wife, Beth, did the hands on projects. So they learned about worldview. They learned about truth, and abortion and the idea of Imago Dei all made in the image of God. So biblically based, but also and then finally, how to defend the position, how to engage, how to ask questions, and the frequent what you'll hear from pro choice folks and how to engage in that sort. And then they worked, hands on. They they did a tour of of the medical center, met a woman who had an abortion as a teenager Okay. And now works with women in in the trauma. It always comes couple decades later.
And, so now I am putting it out nationally, and it's it's all there for folks to look at at at the website, prolifeleaders.net, where all the material is there for folks to look at and, and see and use. So I just feel this call that especially the youth need to
[01:35:09] Unknown:
understand this and stand up for life because we're turning into more and more culture of death in America. That's my I agree with you. And, you kinda you kinda answered my next question. I was gonna ask you why you why you think that this generation coming up needs that type of training, and support when it comes to the life issue.
[01:35:27] Unknown:
Yeah. Because the church and, you know, I bet your church and my church, evangelical churches, they'll check the box. We're pro life. Mhmm. And and we'll talk about it in January Yeah. And maybe one other, but it's not in the DNA. And and I don't when we talk about we are to be disciples, is there any more when you're bringing folks to Christ and trust in Christ? Is life is there anything more important than life, especially young life? And I believe a culture, a government, it's one of its primary issues is protecting the young and the most vulnerable.
[01:36:05] Unknown:
Alright.
[01:36:05] Unknown:
I just feel that's so important how a how a culture treats its young. And you look when the Christians started in Rome, what did Rome do to the young? If you didn't if you didn't want that, bro, you put it on the garbage dump. Right. Literally, that put it on the gar and these weird Christian people were taking babies off the garbage dump and raising them. I mean, that's that's how far we go. And I just think it's not, it's not thought about enough even and I'm talking in the evangelical churches, the pro life. It's not thought a lot. It's not taught. People don't know beyond saying, well, I don't think it's right. Well, as I talk about, the the high school senior, you know, goes to the University of Alabama or University of Texas and takes their first philosophy class and their head blows up because they haven't been challenged this way because they'll they've left the bubble, and they've gotta be prepared for it to engage. And and they have to have the tools, which is what this project provides. I'm taking that excuse away from churches. Well, what do we teach? Well, here it is, and it doesn't cost you anything.
And it's it's the and you can look at it on the website. It's not all my ideas. I put it all together. I'm quoting the very best pro life leaders in America, their thoughts, putting it together in a in a way,
[01:37:20] Unknown:
with PowerPoint and videos and in ways where you can literally get it out of the box and go and teach it. Just be committed to do it and do the hand and and ideas on hands on projects. Yeah. So when when you get critics that come along and and and they start saying that, you know, pro life centers are meet are are misleading, they're harmful, how do you respond to that? What do you what do you how are you preparing the the the the the younger generation to respond to that?
[01:37:45] Unknown:
Well, ignorance is dangerous. And so when senator Warren says have you ever been in one? Okay. I I can tell you and, again, I'm trained to deal with it. We and and we are our goal, obviously, is life. But when we sit and I sit with the men, the women sit with the women, we just lay out facts. Mhmm. We lay out facts about parenting, about adoption, and about abortion. Facts. How how they're done, what's available. It is facts. And that's how we get the trust. That's how we get the trust. And we also, though one of the complaints, you probably heard this, Joe. And I think in the early eighties, it would there's some validity. Yeah. You care about the baby until it's born. And I think there was something to that, but I can tell you the centers, ours, I teach parenting classes. We do parenting classes. We connect them to support outside.
We engage them after the baby's born. So and I think the church needs to to do more of that as well. I I agree with you. But I think that that argument is so specious, and and it it comes out of ignorance. And I and I don't say that kindly, and I should probably say it more kind. Come and come and look. Come and look. Come and be a part of it. But it has gotten to the point, to to your point, Joe, where in California, I mean, they are trying their their attorney general, Bonfa, is suing to keep pregnancy centers in California from telling clients that there is a abortion pill reversal regimen.
[01:39:23] Unknown:
Really?
[01:39:24] Unknown:
And so what's happening now, even in red states like Alabama, is the pills are being sent in. In fact, there's a group Wall Street Journal did this story a couple months ago. There's a pill packing party group in Boston, and they gleefully sit around and put abortion pills and send them to red states. Okay? So you've got that going on. But the upside is that after you take the first pill, which starves the baby, if within twenty four hours or so, you can reverse it by by putting in progesterone, and and there is a procedure to do that. We just had our first baby in our county born after abortion pill reversal. The woman took the first pill. It's a two pill regimen. The second pill aborts the baby. You have to wait forty eight hours. And after she took the pill, guilt wracked her. She called. Our doctor got with her, and the baby was just born two months ago. Oh, praise the lord.
And it and so what California is doing is trying to make it illegal to tell the clients about that. Okay. If you're pro choice, we can have that discussion. But are you that anti choice and pro abortion that you don't want women to know that if they change their mind, if their choice is I've made a mistake, we can't tell them that there's a way? So that's where the culture is, and
[01:40:51] Unknown:
that's where we are. And it's it's not only a cultural, it's a spiritual battle also. Oh. It is.
[01:40:58] Unknown:
Amen. It
[01:41:00] Unknown:
You know, you I'm trying to figure out how I could phrase it. You you you you look back into history of this, go back to the old testament. Those those, those those pagan heathen religions that worshiped Moloch and Baal and and such, that was a core That was a centerpiece of their worship was the sacrifice of children, and I and I see I see that parallel so strong in in this in this death movement. And, unfortunately, I I know it's mostly, you know, on the left, but unfortunately, on the right too. There's there's there's plenty of on the right that that kind of embrace that as well, you know. It it it's to me, I don't understand. I'm I'm I still try to wrap my head around it. Why?
You know, if what is the obsession with with with with abortion? Why is it so why is it such a a sticking point in the with the left, especially. It's it's just Yeah. It's just death, and I I I just don't understand it.
[01:42:13] Unknown:
Remember the old mega legal, safe, and rare? Yeah. Remember that president Clinton? Yeah. I remember that. And it's totally turned on its head. And you look at and you talk about evil the morning after pill, which is part of the process now. I mean, the company that developed that is it's an offshoot of the IB Farben company. And you know what they made in Germany eighty years ago? They made the gas for the concentration camps. Jeez. K? So that company's offshoot developed this. And Man. Here's one of the things, Joe, when you talk about a spiritual and and I look at it, these they are caught in a spiritual battle, And part of it is realizing and never forgetting, and this is part of our our teaching process, is what is it?
My body, my what is it we're talking about? It's a human being. That's right. The DNA of of a fertilized egg is the same as the DNA when that child turns 80 years old. Yeah. It's a human being. And that is where the demonic forces really work to take your eye off the fact that what we're talking about is innocent human life. Yeah. I it's, you know,
[01:43:34] Unknown:
we we don't have as as a created being, as as as as a creation of God, we don't have it. We don't have the right. Let me go let me go this way. We don't have the right to take innocent life. Innocent life. Alright. So, you know, people talk about, you know, well, you know, we we execute, you know, violent criminal murders and all of a sudden. Yeah. Because they because God set up a system of jurisprudence, where these people have been found guilty of committing this crime, and they And God instituted government to execute those things. The those those points of law.
And so, if someone has been convicted of of a capital crime and they're and they're going to be executed for it, that's that's fine. That that is biblical. But we don't have the right to take innocent life. Only God has the right to take innocent life. So so I So so again, it's a it's a spiritual thing that we're struggling with, and it it's and and unless they have a spiritual awakening to to the sanctity of life, there's there's really no hope for them.
[01:44:58] Unknown:
But there is, and it's interesting. I was just at a recent, meeting Mississippi pro life groups. Yeah. There was fascinating. One of the breakout groups, there there is an an atheist for life. And she taught, and she she walked away from her Catholic faith. She is an absolute atheist, but she is an ardent pro life. Really? And it was I just That's rare. I wanted to get into the engagement, you know, but it was a short we just wanted to hear. But that's and she went to Berkeley and and all this, but her feeling is, okay. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in anything. I can't see, feel, or touch, you know, that sort of thing. But that's a human being. Now my argument to her would, what's wrong with killing it if there's no moral law? But Yeah. Anyway That's a good point. But her point too is that the vast majority of pro choicers, they are, but, boy, there's a a chance to engage. And that's one of the powerful parts of the sonograms.
Mhmm. And they are so good. And my daughter was a baby. She's I won't say her age, but it's several decades. Okay? A long time ago. And when I saw the sonogram, it was a little I I was excited, but I couldn't tell what it is. Well, the new ones, we're talking weeks in. You can see a heartbeat. Yeah. Yeah. It's so much more detail. That's life. That is an amazing impact on the moms. Yeah. Of course it is. Amazing. And that's why the pro abortion I wouldn't even say pro choice. The pro abortion don't want those. Pro death is what they are. Yeah. Why do you wanna see that? You know, well, because it's life.
[01:46:38] Unknown:
So since since Roe v Wade was overturned, source I saw a statistic that's that indicate that abortions actually have increased Yes. In The US. Why do you think that's happening?
[01:46:49] Unknown:
Yeah. It's and the numbers and it is. It it's gone just in a couple years from a little over 600,000 to 1,100,000. And so and those are official ones. Now here's the deal. There is a black market, and a DIY abortion with the the pills that aren't even counted. So it's actually much much more than that. I think a couple of things. One, the the idea that if there's nothing greater than I if there's not a moral law that would keep me from doing it and and self is the most important thing, right, individual, that's all that matters is me and what makes me happy, and that has infiltrated the church as well, then if that's a problem or if that's an issue or if I don't have support, then that's an easy decision. So I think that's probably the biggest reason.
And the other is the ease. You know, you used to have to go somewhere, and then there might be protesters. And in a in a state like Mississippi until it closed down, there was only one in the entire state, and you had to do it. Well, now you just do it at home. Mhmm. And you don't even have to have a doctor's. And and the last administration wiped out all these protections, and it's interesting. I think some will be put back in because you used to have to, you're supposed to have to have a prescription now, but you'd have to do it with a doctor because it's hemorrhaging. And and what's interesting, Joe, is the the ethics in public policy center came out just a couple months ago, and they looked at over 800 insurance claims for folks who had taken abortion pills. Mhmm. And what they found was the the rate of serious adverse effects, which is lots of things, was two times higher than the FDA said.
How much higher? When they when they took away those restrictions and let it let it go through. 22 times. The FDA said point five. Reality was more than ten percent. And also, the FDA started only counting deaths, not hemorrhaging and and all these sorts of things. So so a lot of it too is a little bait and switch. Have you heard that you see a meme, the abortion pills is is safer than Tylenol. Where does that come how can anyone think that? I've seen the meme you're talking about. Yeah. No. That's Isn't that isn't that nuts? But people, if you wanna believe it, you'll believe it. So and, again, we see even just politically again, we're at about, 75% of of Americans believe abortion should be legal at some point. So we are a pro abortion, and, again, it's a political loser in most places. Yeah. And so, that's all combining and which is why I put this project together. We we gotta get the youth and it's targeted for high school and college kids. Let's get them informed so they can be engaged and make a difference because the adults ain't doing it real well. No. That's I'm sorry to say. In the evangelical church. Oh, no. You're absolutely right. Absolutely right. And and just to just to just to kinda back up into the political side of the whole thing too. You know, it wasn't
[01:50:04] Unknown:
the matter that that Roe v Wade was overturned. It it it was or or or abortion was made illegal. It's the matter was returned to the states to decide. Yep. It was returned to the people of those states to determine whether or not they want to, permit this in their state. So, so all these people that run around screaming, well, you know, my right to jail, you you take away taken away my rights and so on. No. It's it's been returned to the states to decide. So
[01:50:33] Unknown:
I just I need needed to throw that out there because it it's that that bugs me when people say that, you know. Well and and Ginsburg, who is one of the most pro abortion jurors ever, publicly stated Roe was horribly decided. She said it was horribly. In fact, her quote is, it was egregiously wrong from the start. I mean, from a legal perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that she said that too. I'd I I remember seeing that. Crazy.
[01:51:03] Unknown:
So, obviously, the abortion debate's really emotionally charged, to say the least. What would you say to someone who's sitting on the fence of it? Or unsure about what to believe about it?
[01:51:16] Unknown:
So I would and and I think it it does depend. I think if they're in the faith, it's it's a little easier because you can can talk about God, and we're made in the image of God. My preference, and I get some pushback on this, but but for those who are not in the faith, we can talk about this and never mention the Bible. Now the goal is we'll we'll get there. That's right. But Chuck Olsen used to tell us, we've gotta be prepared because if you just say, well, because the Bible says it and they say, I don't believe in the Bible. What else you got? So so part of it is, for example, I mentioned the DNA of of the fertilized egg. It is a human being Alright. From the beginning.
That's something to talk what what are we what clump of cells. It it's a human being. Maybe it's somebody here's know that you you ask, are you in favor of late term abort a day before the baby's born? Oh, heavens. No. God, no. Okay. Let's go back. What about eight month? No. No. No. Three months, the I'm okay. What's the difference? You know? It's asking questions. What is the well, it's not viable, but is it a human being? So it's those kind of questions to to get them thinking about that. Yeah. That that's What it is we're talking about to get them off this body and choice, those those are assertions. And here, we're talking about arguments, if you will Yes. That is it a human being?
Okay. So if it's a human being, isn't that a problem? And that's the kind of thing to get the, if you will, the more saw. There there is a section of folks, a segment, no argument. It they don't care. In fact, they will acknowledge, yeah, it's a baby, and I don't care, and and you can kill it whenever. Peter Singer, he's the head of ethics at Princeton University. Ethics. And he believes not just in abortion, but he believes in infanticide if the baby is deformed. And, of course, euthanasia and all it's all utilitarian to him. So, now it's interesting, and I mentioned in in the teaching when his mother was, ill with Alzheimer's, he and even though she said she wanted to be allowed to die, he and his sister gave her sustaining. And he was he was pushed by a CBS reporter. And his answer was, it's a little different when it's your mother.
[01:53:45] Unknown:
Is it really? No. Not at all. That that's that's probably the most lame, ridiculous answer you could possibly have given.
[01:53:52] Unknown:
But that's the kind of thing you bring up and discuss. So so I'm in favor when it's someone who's not in the faith is is will save because that'll be the argument. I don't believe okay. Let's just talk about the baby. Let's talk and here's Scott Kloosendorf is a wonderful he's probably the premier pro life advocate. He's written the case for life and others. He calls it trotting out the toddler. And so when you're having the discussion, yes, I'm in favor of abortion at two months. Okay. You're talking to that person. You see a toddler in the in in the, play yard, and he says, is it alright to if I kill the toddler? Well, of course not. Well, what if I don't have enough money? No. That's wrong. Right. Well, what what's the difference between the toddler and the two months?
[01:54:33] Unknown:
Just time. Yeah. That's it. That's exactly it.
[01:54:36] Unknown:
But it gets and what you're doing is is Greg Koukl, I love his his book tactics. He calls it putting a stone in the shoe. Mhmm. Just putting things to think
[01:54:47] Unknown:
about. Yes.
[01:54:50] Unknown:
And and that but I tell you one one of the things, Joe, that I think and this is where the church needs to step up is the the biggest reason and most abortions are elected. The biggest reason is lack of support. It's either, family, financial, that it is kind of an umbrella. Mhmm. Well, what's the church for? So that's what and you've got and and I see them. I see the men. The women are in there. Most are young. Almost none of them married. Most from, broken families, barely making it. And here's a baby's gonna come. Is that not what the church is about? Because that's that's the number one reason for for women to get an abortion is lack of support. Yeah. And a lot of churches fail at that.
[01:55:37] Unknown:
You know, a lot of churches don't help and don't provide support other than a pat on the shoulder will pray for you, you know, and and and push you along the way. Well, sometimes you need more than just prayer. Sometimes you need you need someone to sit there with you and and go to these appointments with you. And sometimes you need someone to to explain next steps to you, you know. And and I think the church in a lot of ways has failed horribly in a lot of that. And, and that's Also focus is putting on the show for Sunday morning. That Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, and and it's a sad it's a sad testament. But then again, if you are a Bible believer, you realize that that is just an example of what's to expect in the end days. You know, the church eventually will kind of implode upon itself Mhmm. And, and and not be that beacon of of of light to a lost and dying world.
Now, you study you study with Chuck Colson, we said, and, you're a Colson fellow. What is what are some of the core truths, that guide your work today from
[01:56:42] Unknown:
The the number one number one thing is there is a such thing as truth. Mhmm. And you'd say, well, duh. Well, no. Not duh. Because now it has a pronoun. I've heard senators say it's my truth. It's your truth. I mean, that this whole mentality. So that is the biggest takeaway. There is an absolute truth. Agreed. It's he defined it as that which conforms to reality. And we may not like the truth, but there is such a thing as truth. And then the idea of a moral truth That's right. And a moral truth giver. Now I think this comes with as as we discussed this topic and so many others is the who says. You know, why is shooting that toddler on the playground wrong? Who says that's wrong? Mhmm. We know lots think you're talking about the old, in Roman times and those folks. What about the Aztecs? They too threw virgin girls into the I know we're not supposed to say that, but Yeah. Sorry, those cultures because there wasn't that, idea of of value. So who says that was wrong? Because they were throwing it to the gods. So those were the the big things. And and then the third is this this idea of engaging with people and and selling the idea of a biblical worldview. In a biblical worldview, Arizona Christian University, which is where George Barna is, and and Adam Rasmussen, and they do the work there where they they they ask, Americans, but then break it down the subset of people who say they're Christian. But when you dig deep down, what do they believe about Christ? What do they believe about truth? What do they believe about these core things?
4% of American adults are born are have a Christian worldview. 4%.
[01:58:30] Unknown:
Which is which is is absolutely shocking, because it wasn't that long ago where, I think it was Oh, man. When I'm trying to remember when I when I read this. It was some time ago that at one point, 50 something percent of adults that were polled identified themselves as Christians, as bible believing Christians. A little smaller percentage with with that specific designation as a bible believing Christian, but Right. But the majority of of of adults would identify themselves as Christian. Now today, you're that's it's at 4%.
[01:59:07] Unknown:
But but that but still you have the identification. But when you drill down Yeah. A little deep and let me just give you one stat. I know we're running out of time. No. No. We're good. This idea that, life is sacred and the Bible doesn't is not clear about abortion. Half of born again Christians believe that. Which is That that life is sacred. Half of of these are self identified born again Christians. Half of them only. So half don't think life is sacred. Yeah. So Which is disturbing. Low church.
[01:59:41] Unknown:
That's absolutely disturbing when you think about it. Yeah.
[01:59:45] Unknown:
And that goes to, okay, the adults that may be too late, but let's get the kids. And that's what part of this this project, because it talks about biblical worldview and how to engage it and and how to how to look at it that way. See, one of the one of the benefits of being the second guest is that if we go a little over, we're okay.
[02:00:02] Unknown:
So so so we can go a little bit longer if you if you want, because we're at 09:00 now, so we can a few more minutes if you if you have the time available. Absolutely. Alright. So, a lot of the problem too with with people that question the the validity of scripture is because they're being taught this because we have a very secular education system. We're we're, you know, we're we're like you said, we're being every you know, our children are being taught that everything is subjective. You know, it's your truth. It's this one's truth. It's that one's truth. And then, of course, you know, as as someone who believes that the that that the bible is the word of God, to when you bring that to somebody and explain that to somebody, they're like, well, no. That's just a book that was written by man, and it's just a measure it's just a way for for for, a measure of control.
And and when you try to break it down to them, it it's it's incredibly difficult. And it's incredibly difficult. And it's becoming more and more prevalent as as as the days are drawing to a close. And I keep on referring to that. I don't I'm not sure exactly where you stand on on your view on that, but I personally believe the Lord's coming back with within the next five years. I don't quote me on that. I'm not setting dates. I'm not, you know He said we're not to know. Yeah. Exactly. I'm just gonna keep plugging through. But but we we are we do see the signs and the times, and we're told to we're told to notice those things. Mhmm. He can come five minutes from now. I I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You know? It's his call. But God bless. But but you see how things you see how things are developing, politically, socially, economically, globally.
And you can't you can't help but realize, okay. Yeah. We're in we're in the the last days of the last days. And it, you know, personally, I think he's coming within my lifetime. I'm hoping. I I wanna be here for that. I, you know, I wanna hear the trumpet. You know, I wanna see the whole thing happen. So, at any rate at any rate, so, when you think about your legacy, alright, what do you hope your students and and your readers carry forward?
[02:02:06] Unknown:
That that it that some light bulbs go off. That that's my hope. And I saw that with the pilot group. We did it with, high school kids. And as one of them said, I, yeah, I was pro life. I thought I knew everything. He said five minutes into the class, I said, I don't know nothing. So, so it is so thin, the idea of of pro life. And so just getting that concept getting the the undergirding that it is the biblical worldview, that understanding what truth is, because it it all it's all layered in in there and then how to engage and and how to share and how to make arguments as assertions and that sort of thing. And and part of the, teaching, I've got videos and, different examples that highlight the challenges that that they'll be facing. And, again, people who are listening tonight, who am I? I mean, why should they believe me? Which is why on the the website, if you don't mind me saying, prolifeleaders.net,
[02:03:09] Unknown:
if you go there And it's all gonna be included in the show notes. So Yeah. All your website all your information is in the show notes. So it's it's there for them. So so plug away, my friend. Plug away. Click and go. But all the, teaching modules are there so that they can read everything, PDFs of everything,
[02:03:26] Unknown:
the, the PowerPoints and the videos are there. Everything's there, and the the only cost, Beth and I have put a lot into this, and we're not getting anything out of the only cost. There's a printer in Dallas who will print on demand, and you you pay his printing and shipping, and that's it. And so my this will be this is frustrating, and tell me, Joe, if this surprises you. But I've I've adjusted just in the couple months that I've been out pitching it, And and I'm addressing some pastors in in a couple weeks, and I'm gonna continue to do that, but it's gotta come from below. My my goal is to find pro life champions in in churches who will look at this, love it, and say, let me get a pilot group of eight or 10 kids. Obviously, get permission. Yeah. Of course. But do it and teach it, and, hopefully, it'll work and it'll spread. So that's the ideas. Let let's try it. There's I'm taking away the excuse of the church saying, well, there's a lot out there. What would we teach? Well, here it is. It's five courses, about thirty five minutes each.
It's it's, you know, it's not easy stuff, but you've gotta commit to it. But it's thirty thirty five, five modules Mhmm. And then ideas undoing the hands on. So that's a way. And then the cost is way. All you're paying for is printing trying to take away excuses. Yeah. And if you really are pro life, let's give it a shot and and try it. So that's hope. And that's that's what Beth and I are hoping is that it will spark more engagement and make a difference.
[02:05:05] Unknown:
I I don't know. We'll see. We will. That's what I hope the legacy is. And it's something it's definitely something to consider and something we pray about, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. So I we we talked a lot of a lot of really heavy subjects, tonight. So I'm gonna try to wrap this up with some more well, another serious question, but and it's and it's a challenging question, I should say. A challenging question for you. Alright? I'm glad you're sitting down. You've been married for forty six years. What's one piece of relationship advice you'd give to your younger self?
[02:05:43] Unknown:
Okay. This is easy, because I just shared it a little bit ago. Thank you, Joe. K. It took me, oh, I'd say sixteen years, but it may have been twenty, to realize that when Beth was sharing a concern, an issue, most times she didn't want an answer. I wanted to fix it. Oh, that's easy. X y z. It's like at my office. I got these problems. We take it care of it. Because that's what men do. Men wanna
[02:06:16] Unknown:
fix the problem. Gauge. Yeah.
[02:06:18] Unknown:
To be be part of it. And it took me that long. I'm I still stumble sometimes. She'll look at me, Stu. Yeah. So that's nice. Don't need an answer. Don't need an answer. They are. But that's and I do it, and I shared it with the younger couple not too long ago. Oh, that's great. Along that along that line. That's hard to do. That's hard for no. We're fixers. That's right. Well, we try to be fixers. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes
[02:06:43] Unknown:
sometimes we're more successful than others. Yes. For sure. But but I totally I totally agree with you on that one. I I know I know from my own personal, like, experiences, I I I I throw myself into a problem with the intention of correcting it, fixing it, however you wanna phrase it. I don't listen well enough, and that's that's an issue. You need to be sensitive, I think anyway, you need to be sensitive to what's actually being said, sometimes more than fixing the problem. Right. And sometimes sometimes just listening is all it takes to fix the problem.
Not necessarily have to tear the house down to fix it. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. That gets you so far. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then then I got a mess to clean up afterwards. So, if you were if you weren't writing, speaking, mentoring, what would you be doing for fun?
[02:07:40] Unknown:
You know, I have been so, I played golf for thirty years. I picked it up when I had my job. It was part of the business thing, and I and I finally gave up after thirty years. And so then when I retired early and started different ministries, I said, let me do tennis. And and I'm now getting to the to that point. So and I was a pretty good athlete growing up, baseball, hockey, and these sorts of things. And so, yeah, I'd be a more accomplished tennis player.
[02:08:12] Unknown:
So you so you played hockey,
[02:08:14] Unknown:
Well, just pick up. Just pick up. Yeah. I I Horrible at basketball, but I I was a goalie. I was a goalie in soccer. I I love this. Alright. I I played three sports growing up. I played, football, baseball, hockey.
[02:08:26] Unknown:
And, football, I I I played both sides of the ball in football. I I was a defensive tackle, offensive guard. And, for some strange reason, I was the only person on the team that could do a long snap. So every every now and then You could have been a rich guy nowadays. That's a great gig. But now but, you know, I hated doing it, but, you know, I was able to. So, you know, I get tapped for that. Yeah. Baseball, I I was a third baseman in, in baseball. And then, in hockey, I was, of course, I was a right wing defender. So and, you know, and and and somebody pointed out to you that, you know, most of the positions that I've always played is always because, positions that you get to
[02:09:09] Unknown:
hit people. So There you go. So you look you look
[02:09:13] Unknown:
the part. You Well, thank you.
[02:09:15] Unknown:
Strong. You're gonna go I'm a teddy bear. Impressive. I I am such a teddy bear. It's like, it's not even funny. There we go. Man. Oh, boy. Alright. Well, Stuart, thank you. This was this was great tonight. So where can the audience go to learn more about you, about students in action, your book, your speaking work, which we really didn't get too much into the book. But Yeah. Two two things. One is the website, students and,
[02:09:37] Unknown:
I'm sorry, prolifeleaders.net. Prolifeleaders.net. And, again, it's a website. It's, it's just all there. All the materials there include videos, for just little highlights of what's going on. And, also, if I can throw out [email protected], comes right to me. And I'm going to mentor, teachers to help them answer questions. So send me an email. I'd love to talk about it. Outstanding. Outstanding.
[02:10:07] Unknown:
Alright. Well, Stuart Kellogg, thank you so much. I will definitely be in touch with you again because we again, we really didn't get too much into the book, and I I'd like to do that at at some other time. So maybe we could schedule another day.
[02:10:18] Unknown:
I'd love to. Or you can come on. And this time, I'll get all the technical stuff wrong. I'm I apologize. Well, no. No. It's it's my fault. It it's it's my Glad it worked. My studio thing here. You know, hopefully,
[02:10:28] Unknown:
next time you come on, we won't have any technical issues. I love it. Well, I know how I'd love to do that. And thank you for the invitation. Oh, anytime. Anytime, brother. God bless you. I really appreciate all the work you're doing, and you're doing fantastic work. And just to say, I I did go onto your website, earlier today, and and it it really is a very easy site to navigate your way through. So, folks, there's really no excuse why you couldn't find what you're looking for on the site. So just make sure you head over there and take a look at it. If this is something that speaks to your heart, if this is something that, as as a believer, if if this is something that is really important to you, it should be, first of all. But, you know, I'm not here to point fingers and judge at anybody, but pray about it. Get yourself involved with something like this. It's very, very important work. And, again, Stewart, thank you so much for bringing it to us. Thank you, Joe, for letting me on this platform. Appreciate it. You have a great night. Thank you. You too. Alright, folks. Stewart Kellogg. Alright. So, normally, we would take a little bit of a break here and kinda reset, but you know what? We're just gonna go right into the last few things, for the night here. And I moved my board over, so I gotta try to find things.
But, let's see. Where is it? Where is it? How the heck would it? Some announcements. Alright. Don't forget. Head over to the website, joeroos.com. Joeroos.com. And when you get over there, make sure you open up that web form. Send us over any questions, comments, cares, or concerns that you have. Any issues you might have. Anything that you'd like us to let us anything you'd like to let us know about. Any ideas, suggestions, you know, for guests or topics that you'd like to discover, and discuss. Let us know about it. Alright? Head over to joeroos.com. Open up the contact form, send it over to us. If you don't wanna use that, you can always email it to me directly at [email protected]. That is [email protected].
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Any number of ways, to to let us know that you're there, you're listening, and you appreciate, the content that we're putting out there. So again, that's the value for value model. So head on over to modernpodcastapps.com or podcastindex.org to find, those modern podcast apps. Alright. So, shout outs tonight to our executive producers, Wayne Rankin, Rosanna Rankin, Carolina Jimenez, and Marissa Lee, and, of course, to our producer, our anonymous Angela. Thank you guys so much for all that you guys do for us, here with the show. Really do appreciate all the support, all the encouragement, and all the little things that you guys do. Thank you so much for that. It's a it's a huge help for me. And also, I don't know if you noticed or not, but we have, we have a new addition to our flag display here. We have our, I stand with Trump flag that was, donated to us today by Carolina Jimenez. And thank you so much for that. We really do appreciate it. So it's gonna be right here for now until I find, a place here in the studio where we're gonna put it. And, so I I love it. Thank you. I really do appreciate that. That is great. And, I think, that should pretty much do it for us. I think let me see if there's anything else here we have.
No? Okay. I think that should do it. So with that said, folks, thanks for spending some time with us tonight. We really do appreciate it. Don't forget to head over to the website, joeroos.com. Check it out, all the pages that are up there. And don't forget, make Texas independent again. Go podcasting. Keep a steady stride and keep talking. Good night and goodbye.
[02:16:28] Unknown:
To you.
[02:16:43] Unknown:
Together?
[02:16:44] Unknown:
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather. Happy trails
[02:16:53] Unknown:
to you. To be me all again.
Introduction to The Joe Root Show
Technical Difficulties and Guest Introduction
Guest Patrick O'Donnell's Journey
Cigar and Beverage Preferences
Patrick O'Donnell's Writing Career
Impact of Police Work on Writing
Transition from Law Enforcement to Writing
Inspiration Behind 'The Good Caller'
Consulting for Crime Writers
Cops and Writers Podcast and Community
Gun Control and Law Enforcement
Introduction to Second Hour and Guest Stuart Kellogg
Stewart Kellogg's Career Journey
Faith and Media Intersection
Students in Action: Building Pro Life Leaders
Abortion Debate and Cultural Impact
Legacy and Future Goals
