Test some
Lex Fridman
(00:00:00) I hope the Kyiv Airport will open soon then it will be easier to fly in.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:00:05) Yes. I think that the war will end and President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be symbolic by airplane.
Lex Fridman
(00:00:16) Again, January 25th around that date, right. Flying in, meeting the Air Force One.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:00:21) That would be cool.
Lex Fridman
(00:00:23) There is a perception of corruption. People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk really care about fighting corruption. What can you say to them to gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for freedom, towards the war effort?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:00:41) In most of cases, we did not receive money, we received weapons. And where we saw risks that something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down hard on everyone. And believe me, this is not only about Ukraine. Everywhere along the supply chain, there are some or other people and companies who want to make money, they try to make money on the war. We did not profit from the war. If we caught someone, believe me, we cracked down hard on them, and we did that, and we will continue to do so because to this day when someone says that, “Ukraine was selling weapons,” and by the way, Russia was the one pushing this narrative, we always responded, “Our soldiers would kill such people with their own hands without any trial.”
(00:01:34) Do you honestly think anyone could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves don’t have enough on the front lines and yet we have to provide proof to defend ourselves? Because when there’s an abundance of such misinformation, distrust starts to grow. And you’re right, people listen to various media outlets, see this and lose faith in you. In the end, you lose trust and with it you lose support. Therefore, believe me, we are fighting more against disinformation than against particular cases, although I still emphasize once again at the everyday level, such things are still important. We catch these people and we fight them.
(00:02:22) … as if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not. This is not true.
Lex Fridman
(00:02:31) I think that yes, he is in fact ready to talk.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:35) Did you talk to him?
Lex Fridman
(00:02:36) On the phone or what?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:37) How do you normally talk to him?
Lex Fridman
(00:02:39) I don’t know. Normally by the sea, the same as with you. He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:45) No, no. One of us may drown.
Lex Fridman
(00:02:48) Who? Are you good at swimming?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:49) Yes, I’m a good swimmer.
Lex Fridman
(00:02:50) You’re a good swimmer. Well, if you think that the President of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country, and he conducts, yes, destructive military actions-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:03:10) Who are you talking about now? Who loves his country?
Lex Fridman
(00:03:12) Putin. Do you think he doesn’t love his country?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:03:16) No. What is his country? He happened to consider Ukraine, his country. What is his country?
Lex Fridman
(00:03:22) When do you think there will be presidential elections in Ukraine?
Introductory words from Lex
Lex Fridman
(00:03:29) The following is a conversation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. It was an intense, raw and heartfelt conversation, my goal for which, was to understand and to do all I can to push for peace. Please allow me to say a few words first about language, then about the President, and finally about history. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation if you like. We spoke in a mix of languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian to Russian to English, so the interpreter was barely hanging on. It was indeed in many ways a wild ride of a conversation. As the President said, “The first of many. Language, like many other things in a time of war is a big deal.” We had a choice, speaking Russian, Ukrainian or English. The President does speak some English, but he’s far from fluent in it and I sadly don’t speak Ukrainian yet, so Russian is the only common language we’re both fluent.
(00:04:39) In case you don’t know, the Russian language is one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. It’s the language I also speak fluently to the degree I speak any language fluently, as does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population. So the most dynamic and powerful conversation between us would be in Russian without an interpreter, who in this case added about two to three second delay and frankly translated partially and poorly for me at least, taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit, the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of the person sitting before me, that I could clearly feel when he was speaking fluently in the language I understand, Russian. But all that said, war changes everything. The Ukrainian language has become a symbol of the Ukrainian people’s fight for freedom and independence, so we had a difficult choice of three languages and faced with that choice, we said yes to all three.
(00:05:49) To the consternation and dismay of the translators. We make captions and voice over audio tracks available in English, Ukrainian, and Russian, so you can listen either to a version that is all one language or to the original mixed language version with subtitles in your preferred language. The default is English overdub. On YouTube you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track and then selecting the language you prefer English, Ukrainian, Russian. To listen to the original mixed-language version, please select the English (UK) audio track, big thank you to ElevenLabs for their help with overdubbing using a mix of AI and humans. We will continue to explore how to break down the barriers that language creates with AI and otherwise. This is a difficult but important endeavor. Language, after all, is much more than a cold sequence of facts and logic statements.
(00:06:58) There are words when spoken in the right sequence and at the right time they can shake the world and turn the tides of history. They can start and end wars. Great leaders can find those words and great translators can help these words reverberate to the outskirts of a divided civilization. On another note, let me say that President Zelenskyy is a truly remarkable person and a historic figure. I say this as somebody who deeply understands the geopolitical complexity and history of the region. I am from this region. My parents were both born in Ukraine, Kyiv and Kharkiv, both my grandfathers too. I was born in Tajikistan and lived for a time there, then in Kyiv, then Moscow, then United States, and while I am now for almost 30 years and to the day I die, I’m a proud American. My family roots grow deep in the soil of nations that comprised the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and Tajikistan.
(00:08:13) I’ve gotten to know and have spoken for hours with members of the President’s team and people close to him. I spoke to hundreds of Ukrainians since 2022, including soldiers, civilians, politicians, artists, religious leaders, journalists, economists, historians and technologists. I listened to hundreds of hours of programs that both support and criticize the President in Ukraine, in Russia, and the United States. I’ve read countless books about this war and the long arc of history that led up to it. It forced to recommend two at this moment, I would say The Russo-Ukrainian War by Serhii Plokhy and The Showman by Simon Shuster, which is a good personal behind-the-scenes biography of the President focused on 2022, but there are many, many more. This is why I can comfortably say that he is a truly singular and remarkable human being. It was an honor and pleasure to talk with him on and off the mic.
(00:09:18) Now, it is true that I plan to travel to Moscow and to speak with President Vladimir Putin and I hope to be back in Kyiv as well as President Zelenskyy said, this was our first of many more meetings. In all of these cases, I seek to do my small part in pushing for peace. And in doing all this, I’m deeply grateful for the trust people have given me on all sides. For the people attacking me, sometimes lying about me, for the critics in the stands chanting the latest slogans of the mass hysteria machine like the sheep in Animal Farm, I love you too. And I assure you that drawing lines between good and evil on a world map is much easier than seeing that line between good and evil in every human being, including you and me. This is what I try to do. I’m simply a human being who seeks to find and surface the humanity in others, and as I’ve said, no amount of money, fame, power, access can buy my opinion or my integrity. Now, finally, please allow me to briefly overview some history to give background for several topics that President Zelenskyy references in this conversation. I recommend my conversation with Serhii Plokhy and many others about the history of the region. But here, let me start with 1991. When Ukraine declared its independence and the Soviet Union collapsed. From this point on Russia-Ukraine relations were defined in large part by whether Ukraine aligned more with Russia or with the West, meaning Europe, United States, NATO, and so on. In 2004, with the Orange Revolution, a pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yushchenko became President. In 2010, it went the other way. A pro-Russia candidate, Viktor Yanukovych became President. The internal tensions grew and in 2013 Euromaidan protests broke out over Yanukovych’s decision to suspend talks with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia. This set forward a chain of important events in 2014. On the politics front, Yanukovych was ousted and fled to Russia leading to the election of a pro-Western President.
(00:11:45) Also, in 2014, on the war front, Russia annexed Crimea and war broke out in the Donbas region of Eastern Ukraine, which eventually killed over 14,000 people and continued all the way to 2022. When on February 24th 2022, Russian forces initiated a full scale invasion of Ukraine. This is when the world started to really pay attention. Now some history of peace talks. Volodymyr Zelenskyy won the presidency in 2019 and he discusses in this conversation the ceasefire agreements he made with Vladimir Putin in 2019, which was one of many attempts at peace from the two Minsk agreements in 2014 and ’15 to a series of ceasefire agreements in 2018, ’19, and ’20, all of which failed in part or in whole. All this shows just how difficult ceasefire and peace negotiations are, but they are not impossible. It is always worth trying over and over again to find the path to peace.
(00:12:55) I believe that Presidents Zelenskyy, Putin and Trump should meet soon after January 20th this year and give everything they got to negotiate a ceasefire and security guarantees that pave the way for long-lasting peace. We discussed several ideas for this in this conversation. As I said, this was one of my main goals here, to push for peace. This trip to Kyiv and this conversation was a truly special moment for me in my life. It is one I will never forget, so to reflect I say a few more words and answer some questions at the very end if you like to listen, but here let me say thank you to everyone for your support over the years. It means the world. This is a Lex Fridman Podcast and now dear friends, here’s the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
Language
Lex Fridman
(00:13:55) If we can explain why the Ukrainian language is very important, our conversation will be most effective and impactful if we speak in Russian.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:14:01) I speak Russian perfectly of course, and I understand everything you are talking about. However, I can’t respond in Russian the entire interview. It’s because this is how it is today. I’m not making anything up. You can see it all for yourself. You can feel and hear it. Today, there were 73 missile attacks against us and people were killed. There were over 100 drones today, and this is a daily occurrence. The people who attack us, they speak Russian. They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian-speaking people, and this is why I respect neither the leader or director of today’s Russia, nor the people. That’s it. And I don’t think that you can just pretend that nothing’s happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that, “We are one people, that we speak one language,” et cetera. They speak the language of weapons. That is a fact, and we are peaceful people. Peaceful people who want to protect themselves and defend their freedom and their human choice. At the beginning of the war, I addressed Russians in Russian, zero effect. They’re mute.
(00:15:33) They do not listen. They did not listen. Some are afraid, some have other issues. They have different reasons. It’s like when a person is drowning and people walk by because they can’t hear them. And someone walks on by crying, afraid to save them. It doesn’t change anything for the one drowning. They need someone to help them. This is why I honestly despise these people as they are deaf. They began the occupation in the supposed defense of the Russian language and that’s why with all due respect, I would like to give an interview in Ukrainian. This is very important to me. If there are some points that you want me to explain in Russian, I can certainly do that. I can certainly occasionally speak Russian, but in general, no. I’m not sure that you will understand me completely, despite your Ukrainian roots, you are a citizen of the United States, right?
Lex Fridman
(00:16:39) Yes.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:16:40) That’s why I’m surprised that you don’t understand. Well, it was a long time ago. I understand that it was a long time ago. Moreover, a lot has changed. A lot has changed.
Lex Fridman
(00:16:58) If I may, please allow me to say this in Russian. Yes, many things have changed, but I have hope. I hope that today many Russians will hear this, that Vladimir Putin will hear this, that the American President, Donald Trump, and the American people will hear this, that everyone will hear this. And yes, Ukrainian language is important symbolically, but what is also important is that we understand each other well.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:17:24) For Donald Trump? Is it important for Donald Trump whether I speak Russian or not?
Lex Fridman
(00:17:28) Yes, yes, yes. Because unfortunately, and it hurts to admit, but I cannot speak or understand Ukrainian yet, so your wit, dynamism and your humanity will not come through as well and as quickly. Remember, I need to wait for two to three seconds to hear it. You have a great sense of humor, great stories. With an interpreter translating, I simply won’t see this, but I understand that it’s painful. Another reason is that I hoped we could show that even though it is sometimes said that Russian is banned in Ukraine-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:18:03) This is not true. I’m speaking Russian now, right. We have people who speak Russian. This is not true. Really, it’s not. It’s really not true. We disrespect Russian now because of Russians. That’s all. When they were saving Russian speakers, they killed Russian speakers. Many people who actually… Many of whom are in the East, right. They lived in the East. They destroyed their houses, destroyed their lives. It’s not a rhetorical thing. It’s not all talk and blah, blah, blah. I don’t have time for blah, blah, blah.
(00:18:38) Yes, so it’s a very, very, very important and sensitive moment. The message is that we are not one nation. We are not the same country. We’re different countries. Yes, different countries, and I think what is most important is what we’re talking about, not how we’re speaking about it. This is what I think. You are a smart guy, so you have a lot of experience in dialogue of this kind. That’s why I think you will understand me. Yeah. Anyway, I think it is far better for Donald Trump to hear my English, not my Russian.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:21) Your English is much better than my Ukrainian. You’re getting better and better every day.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:25) That’s true. I’m a very honest guy. That’s why I will be very honest with you.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:30) Okay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:31) Your Ukrainian is not very good, but we will work on it.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:36) Yes. I have many flaws, that’s one of them.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:38) Sometimes I can speak English. Sometimes as I understand, we can be very flexible, right?
Lex Fridman
(00:19:44) Very flexible. Spanish, Swahili.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:47) Yeah. You see?
Lex Fridman
(00:19:48) Yeah.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:49) You’re very flexible-
Lex Fridman
(00:19:50) Javier Milei needs to understand this, so…
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:51) By the way, Javier understood me without any words.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:55) The language of love, maybe.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:57) Of respect.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:58) Respect.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:58) I respect him. I had a very good conversation with him. Really brilliant.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:03) May I sometimes speak Russian and sometimes English?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:05) Yeah, yes. You can use any language you like, and I think that’s a very good rule for this first meeting between us. As you said, maybe we will meet in the future for the second time.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:15) Second and third and fourth?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:17) Yeah, this is good. You can ask questions in the language you’d like and I will answer in the language I can.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:23) Well, you said you wanted to meet by the sea at some point, so for our next meeting, let’s meet by the sea.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:30) With pleasure next time. It would be much better to meet by our Ukrainian Black or our Azov Sea.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:39) I have traveled to many cities in Ukraine, but I have never been to Odessa and everyone tells me that, and I don’t know why.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:46) You have to.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:47) Can you explain to me why everyone loves Odessa so much? What’s there?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:54) What’s in Odessa? That’s how they say it. What’s there? In Odessa, we’ve got it all.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:59) Okay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:21:00) Odessa. I love Odessa because of its particular temperament. People have their own accent, and there are many nationalities. There are a lot of stories, authentic, Odessa cuisine. By the way, the cuisine is very different from others. The dishes are not like any other dishes and everything is very tasty. Also, there are beautiful people, and today, you understand people very well, especially after the attacks on Odessa. You understand what the people are like, just how Odessites are, very Ukrainian, and that’s very cool. I love Odessa. I go there several times a year. I go there several times a year now because… Well, now because of strengthening of air defense systems, because of this grain corridor, et cetera. I go there more often. They have the sun there. They have the sea. It’s Ukraine, and it’s very cool there.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:10) Well, when you come and visit me in Texas as a guest for the third time-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:16) With pleasure.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:16) Let’s do this. How about you, my friend Joe Rogan and I, we’ll go get some Texas barbecue together.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:25) Who will pay?
Lex Fridman
(00:22:27) That’s a good question.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:27) Putin. Putin for everything. He has to pay.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:31) Well, yes. We’ll invite him too.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:33) No, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:34) Okay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:34) Without him.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:35) Okay, I get it. Understood.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:37) But if the Rome Statute will be accepted by your government before this moment.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:46) Okay. By the way, I don’t know if you know this, but Joe has a great comedy club in Austin.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:52) Joe Rogan?
Lex Fridman
(00:22:53) Joe Rogan, yes. And I think that as a person who respects comedy and stand-up comedy, it would be interesting for you to have a look at it.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:00) No, no. He is, I know him and I saw a lot of different videos. He’s a very talented person, so it would be a pleasure if you invite me and I’m able to do it. I am a little bit busy, but if I’ll be in the United States, I hope that I will have a conversation and a meeting with President Trump, and of course during my visit, if I’ll have the time, it would be a pleasure if you’ll invite me. With pleasure.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:30) You know what? I will pay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:33) Good.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:33) Yeah. I had to think about it, but you are the President.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:37) Yes, with you, with pleasure.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:39) When the war is over, please come.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:42) Thanks so much.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:43) And when you’re less busy.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:43) Thanks so much.
World War II
Lex Fridman
(00:23:44) If we can go back many years, World War II, tell me the story of your grandfather who fought in World War II.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:52) My grandfather, he graduated from the military academy, and from the very beginning of the war, he went to fight. He was in the infantry and he fought through the entire war. He had many wounds, as they used to say back then, “His chest is covered in medals,” and it’s true. He had more than 30? Yes, more than 30. He was the kind of man… He was such a serious man. I loved him very much, and we had a very close relationship. He didn’t like to tell details about the war. He never boasted, although I asked him as a boy would, “How many fascists did you kill?” He never talked about it. He believed that the war was a great tragedy. A tragedy for everyone. And Ukraine was occupied, and it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe, and a tragedy for the Jewish people.
(00:25:10) His own brothers, his entire family were executed. They were tortured by fascists who had occupied Ukraine and their village. His father was the head of the village and he was killed. They were shot. It was a mass… A mass grave, right? Yes. It was a communal burial. Some of them were killed outright and others, they were buried alive. His four brothers, they all went to war. As soon as the war began, they were all there. He was the only one who had a military education, and they all died in the war. He was the only one who came back. He had nobody. He came back and he found my grandmother, his future wife, and she managed… What was it called then? I don’t know. They don’t have them anymore. It was a child care facility, an orphanage, so to speak, a place where orphans lived, children who don’t have parents, children of war.
(00:26:34) And she managed this child care facility with difficult children, as they used to call them, difficult children who went through the war, who saw their parents killed, and this is how they met, because these difficult children, they, well, sometimes behave differently. They could steal something, do something bad. There were many, many children in the orphanage. Yes, that’s how she met my grandfather, and I loved him very much, and I think that my grandfather, frankly would never have believed that this war is possible. He would never have believed it because he worked in the police after the war. He was a colonel. He worked in a criminal investigation all his life, so he fought with bandits all his life, after the Second World War, but also I believe he fought for justice all his life. And we all lived in one apartment, and even after his death, I lived with both of my grandmothers and my parents, two grandmothers who both lost their husbands. Both of them died.
(00:28:05) Well, it was an ordinary family, an ordinary family that lived like everyone lived back then in the Soviet Union and even after the Soviet in the nineties, we lived in one apartment all together. What else is there to say? But I think the most important thing was values, respect. They gave me an education. My parents gave me an education, no one left me money or apartments, so I didn’t inherit anything material. But I believe that our real inheritance is here, in our minds and in our hearts. I believe that. Understood.
Lex Fridman
(00:28:47) There’s just a one-second delay, so if… I’m sorry, if you-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:28:59) It’s fine.
Lex Fridman
(00:28:59) … tell a joke, I will laugh about one, two or three seconds later. There’s a delay. So ordinary family, but not an ordinary time. World War II. Speaking of mass graves, I was at Babyn Yar yesterday. A large part of my family died there. In moments like this, such a place serves as a stark reminder of the profound historical gravity of the Second World War. I remember this song from my youth, “On June 22nd at four o’clock, Kyiv was bombed and the war began.” I always wondered how it would feel to live in a moment when everything changed. The path of humanity completely shifts in a single moment just like that. What do you think about that moment in 1941 now, after the 2022 invasion, how do you perceive the Second World War after you have witnessed all of it?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:30:05) Well, firstly, the war actually started earlier. It started here in Ukraine. Kyiv was bombed as you quoted, but the war had already begun before that. And I think I perceived it as a start of the full-scale invasion. Well, I think it’s hard to understand why nobody wants to listen, look at and analyze history. War, the rise of fascism and Nazism, the emergence of Hitler, Goebbels, and their entire team at the time, this wasn’t just about one party or even one country. It was essentially a wave. A wave of hatred, a wave of one race, one race above the rest.
(00:31:17) They were in fact constructing and ultimately implemented a theory around this idea later seizing Europe. They created a theory of one nation, one race, one world, their world. Of course, this idea is absolutely senseless, but it has become radicalized over the years and even gained support. A vision of one world and in principle, the so-called Russian World, the ideology Putin promotes and imposes, it wasn’t originally like that. He was a different person back then, or maybe he was always like this, but his rhetoric was different. At the beginning, remember, he talked about the EU, and-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:32:00) At the beginning, remember he talked about the EU and even about Russia’s future being tied to NATO. There were even talks of joining the European Union, NATO. He spoke about shared values with the West. That’s how it all sounded back then. We must also look at Hitler, who was seriously… Before the radical idea of taking over the whole world, he actually made certain steps and everyone believed he was helping the economy. And to be fair, he did take some steps in that direction but he was a terrifying person. None of those actions justify him, nor do they excuse his actions and that’s why we cannot look at the Second World War as if it started in 1939. It didn’t begin in 1941 either. We need to draw conclusions. When did it start? With the weaknesses of the world? The division of European states, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. All of this happened before 1941. People who were more informed, those who dug deeper, whether they were politicians or not, whether they were from different walks of life including business, which was different back then, we’re speaking about all of this.
(00:33:26) Hitler won’t stop. There’ll be a world war. Hitler will destroy nations, nations, and that’s what happened. Someone looked the other way. What I told you about. Europe was sinking then, I gave you an example of it but the whole world looked the other way and didn’t pay attention and said, no, we can negotiate with him. I’m telling you he’s okay. We can negotiate with him. He’s just more right leaning, or it does not matter what they said. He’s just very pro nationalist. This is all nonsense and this is not the first time and Hitler isn’t the first such case in history. We’re dealing with a person who is allowed to stick to this desire to destroy. He was consumed by it and enjoying it. And what happened to Hitler?
(00:34:31) Now, what about Putin? This invasion was also at around four in the morning. There were missile strikes on Ukraine. This is the same. I believe that intentions are also the same but more on that later. By the way, you tell me if this is too long, you can stop me.
Lex Fridman
(00:34:53) Never long enough. It’s beautiful.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:34:55) Okay, so it happened here around four in the morning. Before this, I must honestly say everyone said something, predicted something, et cetera but I asked only for one thing primarily from the United States, if you are sure, if you have the evidence, if you talk to him and he tells you that there’ll be an invasion, if all this scares you, I only asked for two things. Send us weapons or better yet, strengthen us with preventive measures so there would be no war. It wasn’t the weapons that I was asking for. I asked for sanctions. Intimidate him. Please don’t say that if he comes, if he crosses borders, if he kills, we are imposing sanctions. Well, this is complete bullshit. Sorry but really.
Lex Fridman
(00:35:53) Oh, I understand this.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:35:54) Oh, wonderful. Yes.
Lex Fridman
(00:35:55) I understood one word.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:35:57) Yeah.
Lex Fridman
(00:36:00) So, they did not help.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:36:02) I believe that no and this is a fact. We didn’t receive help. If we assume that words are help, well then yes, we received a lot of it because there were plenty of words. Even more than plenty, yes. At four in the morning there were strikes. Morally, is it possible to prepare for war? No. It doesn’t happen like you read in books, see in movies and so on. What happens to you? I was just looking at my wife and children. My children were asleep but my wife was awake. There were strikes, missile strikes. We heard them. To you as a living person, how can this be? You just can’t fully believe this. You just don’t understand. Why now, given everything that happened in World War II when millions of people died? None of it mattered still at four in the morning around 4:00, 3:40, 3:45. Remember, around this time? Yes, there were missile strikes and later.
(00:37:27) By the way, a few days after the first days of the war, I spoke with Lukashenko on the phone and he apologized and he said that it was not me. Missiles were launched from my territory and Putin was the one launching them. These are his words. “I have witnesses and I apologize,” he said. But believe me, that’s what he told me. “Volodymyr, this is not me. I’m not in charge,” he told me, “I’m not in charge. These are just missiles. This is Putin.” I told him, “Don’t do that.” This was done without me. That’s it. On the phone, I remember this conversation. I told him, “You are a murderer too, I’m just saying.” He told me, “You must understand, you can’t fight the Russians.” I told him that we never fought them. I said, “It’s war. The missiles came from your land, from Belarus. How did you allow this?” Then he replied, “All right, retaliate then.” I still remember him telling me, “Hit the refinery. You know how much I care about it.” Mozyr Oil Refinery, is that it? Can’t recall. Mozyr Oil Refinery. I told him, “What are you on about? What retaliation?”
Lex Fridman
(00:39:00) Forgive me, Volodymyr.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:39:02) Yes.
Lex Fridman
(00:39:03) This was at five in the morning?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:39:06) No, no, no. This was during the first or maybe the second day. Second or third day of the war.
Lex Fridman
(00:39:11) Ah, I see.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:39:12) After that I went back home. I was home with my children, with my wife. I just went to my wife very quickly that night at four o’clock and just told her, “Get the children, get ready. You’ll probably need to go to my office very soon.” And I left. That’s it. At this moment, you are no longer a father. What happened to me, unfortunately, because I believe that this is, and not only do I believe I understand, especially now, that all of this is the most important thing because your country is your family. The strength is in your family and this is the most important thing. I’m the president and therefore, I had to stop being a father in my own family. And my wife had to do everything… She had to do everything regarding children, regarding safety and I had to deal with the state because I’m the president and this is my duty. And I, by the way, am taking this very seriously. I went to the office and here we are now. You’re very welcome.
Invasion on Feb 24, 2022
Lex Fridman
(00:40:31) Well, at that moment on February 24th, 2022, everything changed again. Just like in June 1941, everything changed and history took a turn. The history of humanity took a turn and for you too, you were the president. You were talking about fighting corruption, about the country’s freedom, about interesting and innovative reforms but that morning of February 22nd, everything changed. Could you tell me about that morning, the details of your actions when you had to quickly make difficult decisions? What was the process for you? How did you make these decisions? Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand how to respond to this invasion in every technical, political and military aspect? What was the process for you? How did you make the decision?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:41:34) According to our legislation, in principle, I am the supreme commander of the Armed forces of Ukraine, so I had to give corresponding orders. Yes, I have a military office and then later there was a military headquarters where all key people gathered. This is not only about the military, it’s about energy, et cetera, all key things. But at that moment, I made the decisions quickly and without a doubt and I cannot say that I am just that kind of person. I’m just a living person who believed that if help is needed right now to help, to help evacuate people, help with children. Several cities were blocked. I was only thinking about how to deliver food there within a day. We did a lot of things, although we understood that they in fact occupy part of our state.
(00:42:43) We distributed weapons to people, that’s how it was. Trucks came and simply distributed weapons to people so that they could defend the capital, to ordinary people just on the street, to ordinary people who understood that if the Russians entered a city, then we would have the same thing that’s happening in other cities per the information we received. Thanks to digitalization, by the way, we had very good digitalization before this. We preserved a lot and even when they were surrounding certain cities, a lot of things still worked. The banking system, the internet, we had television, and thanks to this, I made several decisions to ensure that people are united and have all the information. Russia is very good at spreading large scale disinformation. Fortunately, I have two decades of experience managing a production studio, TV channels and large media resources. I understood that we needed to build an information network very quickly.
(00:44:08) Thanks to this, I began to address the people constantly. This happened several times, three to five times a day. In fact, I became an information source for people who were in cities that were cut off from other information and it was very important for me to keep all things digital, to keep the internet, to stay in touch with everyone with all the people. Initially, that’s the contact we had and then we also built a media platform where we had all the news agencies of Ukraine and this network was called Marathon. It was also very important for the people to trust us and people had to receive information. Why? There were waves of Russian on the first day who said he ran away. I had to go out into the street, I left the office and went outside. I had to do this because I was showing that this was no green screen to show that it was the street, not some digital manipulation.
(00:45:25) I did these things. Then I touched various objects. Now, people might think that these are small things, but I was actually showing that I was in a real place. All of this had an impact. I was absolutely sure of my actions. And these contacts, several contacts and then I spoke to the Russians, I addressed Russians, I really did, and then only after that I gathered… It was the first day when I invited all of the journalists here, wasn’t it? That was on the first day, I think. Well, not here, to the press center in this building. I talked to journalists. I asked them not to leave because we needed weapons. At that moment, they were handing out rifles to people and for me, journalists and media platforms were essential voices.
(00:46:22) There were various journalists from different countries here and they were essentially stuck and I asked them for contacts, those who had access to Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs who understood everything, the same information, and I spoke to them and I spoke to them and spoke in Russian. I told them, “You must stop Putin. This is terrible. This is horror. This is war. You must stop him. And if you stand up now, if you speak out and if you go out into the streets…” This was very important. I spoke to them in Russian to show them that there was no problem and that all of these pretexts were made up. This is why it’s so painful to talk about the Russian language too because look, if a person does not want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language we speak.
(00:00:00) I hope the Kyiv Airport will open soon then it will be easier to fly in.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:00:05) Yes. I think that the war will end and President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be symbolic by airplane.
Lex Fridman
(00:00:16) Again, January 25th around that date, right. Flying in, meeting the Air Force One.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:00:21) That would be cool.
Lex Fridman
(00:00:23) There is a perception of corruption. People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk really care about fighting corruption. What can you say to them to gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for freedom, towards the war effort?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:00:41) In most of cases, we did not receive money, we received weapons. And where we saw risks that something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down hard on everyone. And believe me, this is not only about Ukraine. Everywhere along the supply chain, there are some or other people and companies who want to make money, they try to make money on the war. We did not profit from the war. If we caught someone, believe me, we cracked down hard on them, and we did that, and we will continue to do so because to this day when someone says that, “Ukraine was selling weapons,” and by the way, Russia was the one pushing this narrative, we always responded, “Our soldiers would kill such people with their own hands without any trial.”
(00:01:34) Do you honestly think anyone could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves don’t have enough on the front lines and yet we have to provide proof to defend ourselves? Because when there’s an abundance of such misinformation, distrust starts to grow. And you’re right, people listen to various media outlets, see this and lose faith in you. In the end, you lose trust and with it you lose support. Therefore, believe me, we are fighting more against disinformation than against particular cases, although I still emphasize once again at the everyday level, such things are still important. We catch these people and we fight them.
(00:02:22) … as if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not. This is not true.
Lex Fridman
(00:02:31) I think that yes, he is in fact ready to talk.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:35) Did you talk to him?
Lex Fridman
(00:02:36) On the phone or what?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:37) How do you normally talk to him?
Lex Fridman
(00:02:39) I don’t know. Normally by the sea, the same as with you. He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:45) No, no. One of us may drown.
Lex Fridman
(00:02:48) Who? Are you good at swimming?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:02:49) Yes, I’m a good swimmer.
Lex Fridman
(00:02:50) You’re a good swimmer. Well, if you think that the President of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country, and he conducts, yes, destructive military actions-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:03:10) Who are you talking about now? Who loves his country?
Lex Fridman
(00:03:12) Putin. Do you think he doesn’t love his country?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:03:16) No. What is his country? He happened to consider Ukraine, his country. What is his country?
Lex Fridman
(00:03:22) When do you think there will be presidential elections in Ukraine?
Introductory words from Lex
Lex Fridman
(00:03:29) The following is a conversation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. It was an intense, raw and heartfelt conversation, my goal for which, was to understand and to do all I can to push for peace. Please allow me to say a few words first about language, then about the President, and finally about history. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation if you like. We spoke in a mix of languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian to Russian to English, so the interpreter was barely hanging on. It was indeed in many ways a wild ride of a conversation. As the President said, “The first of many. Language, like many other things in a time of war is a big deal.” We had a choice, speaking Russian, Ukrainian or English. The President does speak some English, but he’s far from fluent in it and I sadly don’t speak Ukrainian yet, so Russian is the only common language we’re both fluent.
(00:04:39) In case you don’t know, the Russian language is one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. It’s the language I also speak fluently to the degree I speak any language fluently, as does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population. So the most dynamic and powerful conversation between us would be in Russian without an interpreter, who in this case added about two to three second delay and frankly translated partially and poorly for me at least, taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit, the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of the person sitting before me, that I could clearly feel when he was speaking fluently in the language I understand, Russian. But all that said, war changes everything. The Ukrainian language has become a symbol of the Ukrainian people’s fight for freedom and independence, so we had a difficult choice of three languages and faced with that choice, we said yes to all three.
(00:05:49) To the consternation and dismay of the translators. We make captions and voice over audio tracks available in English, Ukrainian, and Russian, so you can listen either to a version that is all one language or to the original mixed language version with subtitles in your preferred language. The default is English overdub. On YouTube you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track and then selecting the language you prefer English, Ukrainian, Russian. To listen to the original mixed-language version, please select the English (UK) audio track, big thank you to ElevenLabs for their help with overdubbing using a mix of AI and humans. We will continue to explore how to break down the barriers that language creates with AI and otherwise. This is a difficult but important endeavor. Language, after all, is much more than a cold sequence of facts and logic statements.
(00:06:58) There are words when spoken in the right sequence and at the right time they can shake the world and turn the tides of history. They can start and end wars. Great leaders can find those words and great translators can help these words reverberate to the outskirts of a divided civilization. On another note, let me say that President Zelenskyy is a truly remarkable person and a historic figure. I say this as somebody who deeply understands the geopolitical complexity and history of the region. I am from this region. My parents were both born in Ukraine, Kyiv and Kharkiv, both my grandfathers too. I was born in Tajikistan and lived for a time there, then in Kyiv, then Moscow, then United States, and while I am now for almost 30 years and to the day I die, I’m a proud American. My family roots grow deep in the soil of nations that comprised the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and Tajikistan.
(00:08:13) I’ve gotten to know and have spoken for hours with members of the President’s team and people close to him. I spoke to hundreds of Ukrainians since 2022, including soldiers, civilians, politicians, artists, religious leaders, journalists, economists, historians and technologists. I listened to hundreds of hours of programs that both support and criticize the President in Ukraine, in Russia, and the United States. I’ve read countless books about this war and the long arc of history that led up to it. It forced to recommend two at this moment, I would say The Russo-Ukrainian War by Serhii Plokhy and The Showman by Simon Shuster, which is a good personal behind-the-scenes biography of the President focused on 2022, but there are many, many more. This is why I can comfortably say that he is a truly singular and remarkable human being. It was an honor and pleasure to talk with him on and off the mic.
(00:09:18) Now, it is true that I plan to travel to Moscow and to speak with President Vladimir Putin and I hope to be back in Kyiv as well as President Zelenskyy said, this was our first of many more meetings. In all of these cases, I seek to do my small part in pushing for peace. And in doing all this, I’m deeply grateful for the trust people have given me on all sides. For the people attacking me, sometimes lying about me, for the critics in the stands chanting the latest slogans of the mass hysteria machine like the sheep in Animal Farm, I love you too. And I assure you that drawing lines between good and evil on a world map is much easier than seeing that line between good and evil in every human being, including you and me. This is what I try to do. I’m simply a human being who seeks to find and surface the humanity in others, and as I’ve said, no amount of money, fame, power, access can buy my opinion or my integrity. Now, finally, please allow me to briefly overview some history to give background for several topics that President Zelenskyy references in this conversation. I recommend my conversation with Serhii Plokhy and many others about the history of the region. But here, let me start with 1991. When Ukraine declared its independence and the Soviet Union collapsed. From this point on Russia-Ukraine relations were defined in large part by whether Ukraine aligned more with Russia or with the West, meaning Europe, United States, NATO, and so on. In 2004, with the Orange Revolution, a pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yushchenko became President. In 2010, it went the other way. A pro-Russia candidate, Viktor Yanukovych became President. The internal tensions grew and in 2013 Euromaidan protests broke out over Yanukovych’s decision to suspend talks with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia. This set forward a chain of important events in 2014. On the politics front, Yanukovych was ousted and fled to Russia leading to the election of a pro-Western President.
(00:11:45) Also, in 2014, on the war front, Russia annexed Crimea and war broke out in the Donbas region of Eastern Ukraine, which eventually killed over 14,000 people and continued all the way to 2022. When on February 24th 2022, Russian forces initiated a full scale invasion of Ukraine. This is when the world started to really pay attention. Now some history of peace talks. Volodymyr Zelenskyy won the presidency in 2019 and he discusses in this conversation the ceasefire agreements he made with Vladimir Putin in 2019, which was one of many attempts at peace from the two Minsk agreements in 2014 and ’15 to a series of ceasefire agreements in 2018, ’19, and ’20, all of which failed in part or in whole. All this shows just how difficult ceasefire and peace negotiations are, but they are not impossible. It is always worth trying over and over again to find the path to peace.
(00:12:55) I believe that Presidents Zelenskyy, Putin and Trump should meet soon after January 20th this year and give everything they got to negotiate a ceasefire and security guarantees that pave the way for long-lasting peace. We discussed several ideas for this in this conversation. As I said, this was one of my main goals here, to push for peace. This trip to Kyiv and this conversation was a truly special moment for me in my life. It is one I will never forget, so to reflect I say a few more words and answer some questions at the very end if you like to listen, but here let me say thank you to everyone for your support over the years. It means the world. This is a Lex Fridman Podcast and now dear friends, here’s the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
Language
Lex Fridman
(00:13:55) If we can explain why the Ukrainian language is very important, our conversation will be most effective and impactful if we speak in Russian.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:14:01) I speak Russian perfectly of course, and I understand everything you are talking about. However, I can’t respond in Russian the entire interview. It’s because this is how it is today. I’m not making anything up. You can see it all for yourself. You can feel and hear it. Today, there were 73 missile attacks against us and people were killed. There were over 100 drones today, and this is a daily occurrence. The people who attack us, they speak Russian. They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian-speaking people, and this is why I respect neither the leader or director of today’s Russia, nor the people. That’s it. And I don’t think that you can just pretend that nothing’s happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that, “We are one people, that we speak one language,” et cetera. They speak the language of weapons. That is a fact, and we are peaceful people. Peaceful people who want to protect themselves and defend their freedom and their human choice. At the beginning of the war, I addressed Russians in Russian, zero effect. They’re mute.
(00:15:33) They do not listen. They did not listen. Some are afraid, some have other issues. They have different reasons. It’s like when a person is drowning and people walk by because they can’t hear them. And someone walks on by crying, afraid to save them. It doesn’t change anything for the one drowning. They need someone to help them. This is why I honestly despise these people as they are deaf. They began the occupation in the supposed defense of the Russian language and that’s why with all due respect, I would like to give an interview in Ukrainian. This is very important to me. If there are some points that you want me to explain in Russian, I can certainly do that. I can certainly occasionally speak Russian, but in general, no. I’m not sure that you will understand me completely, despite your Ukrainian roots, you are a citizen of the United States, right?
Lex Fridman
(00:16:39) Yes.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:16:40) That’s why I’m surprised that you don’t understand. Well, it was a long time ago. I understand that it was a long time ago. Moreover, a lot has changed. A lot has changed.
Lex Fridman
(00:16:58) If I may, please allow me to say this in Russian. Yes, many things have changed, but I have hope. I hope that today many Russians will hear this, that Vladimir Putin will hear this, that the American President, Donald Trump, and the American people will hear this, that everyone will hear this. And yes, Ukrainian language is important symbolically, but what is also important is that we understand each other well.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:17:24) For Donald Trump? Is it important for Donald Trump whether I speak Russian or not?
Lex Fridman
(00:17:28) Yes, yes, yes. Because unfortunately, and it hurts to admit, but I cannot speak or understand Ukrainian yet, so your wit, dynamism and your humanity will not come through as well and as quickly. Remember, I need to wait for two to three seconds to hear it. You have a great sense of humor, great stories. With an interpreter translating, I simply won’t see this, but I understand that it’s painful. Another reason is that I hoped we could show that even though it is sometimes said that Russian is banned in Ukraine-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:18:03) This is not true. I’m speaking Russian now, right. We have people who speak Russian. This is not true. Really, it’s not. It’s really not true. We disrespect Russian now because of Russians. That’s all. When they were saving Russian speakers, they killed Russian speakers. Many people who actually… Many of whom are in the East, right. They lived in the East. They destroyed their houses, destroyed their lives. It’s not a rhetorical thing. It’s not all talk and blah, blah, blah. I don’t have time for blah, blah, blah.
(00:18:38) Yes, so it’s a very, very, very important and sensitive moment. The message is that we are not one nation. We are not the same country. We’re different countries. Yes, different countries, and I think what is most important is what we’re talking about, not how we’re speaking about it. This is what I think. You are a smart guy, so you have a lot of experience in dialogue of this kind. That’s why I think you will understand me. Yeah. Anyway, I think it is far better for Donald Trump to hear my English, not my Russian.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:21) Your English is much better than my Ukrainian. You’re getting better and better every day.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:25) That’s true. I’m a very honest guy. That’s why I will be very honest with you.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:30) Okay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:31) Your Ukrainian is not very good, but we will work on it.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:36) Yes. I have many flaws, that’s one of them.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:38) Sometimes I can speak English. Sometimes as I understand, we can be very flexible, right?
Lex Fridman
(00:19:44) Very flexible. Spanish, Swahili.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:47) Yeah. You see?
Lex Fridman
(00:19:48) Yeah.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:49) You’re very flexible-
Lex Fridman
(00:19:50) Javier Milei needs to understand this, so…
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:51) By the way, Javier understood me without any words.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:55) The language of love, maybe.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:57) Of respect.
Lex Fridman
(00:19:58) Respect.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:19:58) I respect him. I had a very good conversation with him. Really brilliant.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:03) May I sometimes speak Russian and sometimes English?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:05) Yeah, yes. You can use any language you like, and I think that’s a very good rule for this first meeting between us. As you said, maybe we will meet in the future for the second time.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:15) Second and third and fourth?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:17) Yeah, this is good. You can ask questions in the language you’d like and I will answer in the language I can.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:23) Well, you said you wanted to meet by the sea at some point, so for our next meeting, let’s meet by the sea.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:30) With pleasure next time. It would be much better to meet by our Ukrainian Black or our Azov Sea.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:39) I have traveled to many cities in Ukraine, but I have never been to Odessa and everyone tells me that, and I don’t know why.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:46) You have to.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:47) Can you explain to me why everyone loves Odessa so much? What’s there?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:20:54) What’s in Odessa? That’s how they say it. What’s there? In Odessa, we’ve got it all.
Lex Fridman
(00:20:59) Okay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:21:00) Odessa. I love Odessa because of its particular temperament. People have their own accent, and there are many nationalities. There are a lot of stories, authentic, Odessa cuisine. By the way, the cuisine is very different from others. The dishes are not like any other dishes and everything is very tasty. Also, there are beautiful people, and today, you understand people very well, especially after the attacks on Odessa. You understand what the people are like, just how Odessites are, very Ukrainian, and that’s very cool. I love Odessa. I go there several times a year. I go there several times a year now because… Well, now because of strengthening of air defense systems, because of this grain corridor, et cetera. I go there more often. They have the sun there. They have the sea. It’s Ukraine, and it’s very cool there.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:10) Well, when you come and visit me in Texas as a guest for the third time-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:16) With pleasure.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:16) Let’s do this. How about you, my friend Joe Rogan and I, we’ll go get some Texas barbecue together.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:25) Who will pay?
Lex Fridman
(00:22:27) That’s a good question.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:27) Putin. Putin for everything. He has to pay.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:31) Well, yes. We’ll invite him too.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:33) No, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:34) Okay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:34) Without him.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:35) Okay, I get it. Understood.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:37) But if the Rome Statute will be accepted by your government before this moment.
Lex Fridman
(00:22:46) Okay. By the way, I don’t know if you know this, but Joe has a great comedy club in Austin.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:22:52) Joe Rogan?
Lex Fridman
(00:22:53) Joe Rogan, yes. And I think that as a person who respects comedy and stand-up comedy, it would be interesting for you to have a look at it.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:00) No, no. He is, I know him and I saw a lot of different videos. He’s a very talented person, so it would be a pleasure if you invite me and I’m able to do it. I am a little bit busy, but if I’ll be in the United States, I hope that I will have a conversation and a meeting with President Trump, and of course during my visit, if I’ll have the time, it would be a pleasure if you’ll invite me. With pleasure.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:30) You know what? I will pay.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:33) Good.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:33) Yeah. I had to think about it, but you are the President.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:37) Yes, with you, with pleasure.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:39) When the war is over, please come.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:42) Thanks so much.
Lex Fridman
(00:23:43) And when you’re less busy.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:43) Thanks so much.
World War II
Lex Fridman
(00:23:44) If we can go back many years, World War II, tell me the story of your grandfather who fought in World War II.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:23:52) My grandfather, he graduated from the military academy, and from the very beginning of the war, he went to fight. He was in the infantry and he fought through the entire war. He had many wounds, as they used to say back then, “His chest is covered in medals,” and it’s true. He had more than 30? Yes, more than 30. He was the kind of man… He was such a serious man. I loved him very much, and we had a very close relationship. He didn’t like to tell details about the war. He never boasted, although I asked him as a boy would, “How many fascists did you kill?” He never talked about it. He believed that the war was a great tragedy. A tragedy for everyone. And Ukraine was occupied, and it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe, and a tragedy for the Jewish people.
(00:25:10) His own brothers, his entire family were executed. They were tortured by fascists who had occupied Ukraine and their village. His father was the head of the village and he was killed. They were shot. It was a mass… A mass grave, right? Yes. It was a communal burial. Some of them were killed outright and others, they were buried alive. His four brothers, they all went to war. As soon as the war began, they were all there. He was the only one who had a military education, and they all died in the war. He was the only one who came back. He had nobody. He came back and he found my grandmother, his future wife, and she managed… What was it called then? I don’t know. They don’t have them anymore. It was a child care facility, an orphanage, so to speak, a place where orphans lived, children who don’t have parents, children of war.
(00:26:34) And she managed this child care facility with difficult children, as they used to call them, difficult children who went through the war, who saw their parents killed, and this is how they met, because these difficult children, they, well, sometimes behave differently. They could steal something, do something bad. There were many, many children in the orphanage. Yes, that’s how she met my grandfather, and I loved him very much, and I think that my grandfather, frankly would never have believed that this war is possible. He would never have believed it because he worked in the police after the war. He was a colonel. He worked in a criminal investigation all his life, so he fought with bandits all his life, after the Second World War, but also I believe he fought for justice all his life. And we all lived in one apartment, and even after his death, I lived with both of my grandmothers and my parents, two grandmothers who both lost their husbands. Both of them died.
(00:28:05) Well, it was an ordinary family, an ordinary family that lived like everyone lived back then in the Soviet Union and even after the Soviet in the nineties, we lived in one apartment all together. What else is there to say? But I think the most important thing was values, respect. They gave me an education. My parents gave me an education, no one left me money or apartments, so I didn’t inherit anything material. But I believe that our real inheritance is here, in our minds and in our hearts. I believe that. Understood.
Lex Fridman
(00:28:47) There’s just a one-second delay, so if… I’m sorry, if you-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:28:59) It’s fine.
Lex Fridman
(00:28:59) … tell a joke, I will laugh about one, two or three seconds later. There’s a delay. So ordinary family, but not an ordinary time. World War II. Speaking of mass graves, I was at Babyn Yar yesterday. A large part of my family died there. In moments like this, such a place serves as a stark reminder of the profound historical gravity of the Second World War. I remember this song from my youth, “On June 22nd at four o’clock, Kyiv was bombed and the war began.” I always wondered how it would feel to live in a moment when everything changed. The path of humanity completely shifts in a single moment just like that. What do you think about that moment in 1941 now, after the 2022 invasion, how do you perceive the Second World War after you have witnessed all of it?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:30:05) Well, firstly, the war actually started earlier. It started here in Ukraine. Kyiv was bombed as you quoted, but the war had already begun before that. And I think I perceived it as a start of the full-scale invasion. Well, I think it’s hard to understand why nobody wants to listen, look at and analyze history. War, the rise of fascism and Nazism, the emergence of Hitler, Goebbels, and their entire team at the time, this wasn’t just about one party or even one country. It was essentially a wave. A wave of hatred, a wave of one race, one race above the rest.
(00:31:17) They were in fact constructing and ultimately implemented a theory around this idea later seizing Europe. They created a theory of one nation, one race, one world, their world. Of course, this idea is absolutely senseless, but it has become radicalized over the years and even gained support. A vision of one world and in principle, the so-called Russian World, the ideology Putin promotes and imposes, it wasn’t originally like that. He was a different person back then, or maybe he was always like this, but his rhetoric was different. At the beginning, remember, he talked about the EU, and-
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:32:00) At the beginning, remember he talked about the EU and even about Russia’s future being tied to NATO. There were even talks of joining the European Union, NATO. He spoke about shared values with the West. That’s how it all sounded back then. We must also look at Hitler, who was seriously… Before the radical idea of taking over the whole world, he actually made certain steps and everyone believed he was helping the economy. And to be fair, he did take some steps in that direction but he was a terrifying person. None of those actions justify him, nor do they excuse his actions and that’s why we cannot look at the Second World War as if it started in 1939. It didn’t begin in 1941 either. We need to draw conclusions. When did it start? With the weaknesses of the world? The division of European states, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. All of this happened before 1941. People who were more informed, those who dug deeper, whether they were politicians or not, whether they were from different walks of life including business, which was different back then, we’re speaking about all of this.
(00:33:26) Hitler won’t stop. There’ll be a world war. Hitler will destroy nations, nations, and that’s what happened. Someone looked the other way. What I told you about. Europe was sinking then, I gave you an example of it but the whole world looked the other way and didn’t pay attention and said, no, we can negotiate with him. I’m telling you he’s okay. We can negotiate with him. He’s just more right leaning, or it does not matter what they said. He’s just very pro nationalist. This is all nonsense and this is not the first time and Hitler isn’t the first such case in history. We’re dealing with a person who is allowed to stick to this desire to destroy. He was consumed by it and enjoying it. And what happened to Hitler?
(00:34:31) Now, what about Putin? This invasion was also at around four in the morning. There were missile strikes on Ukraine. This is the same. I believe that intentions are also the same but more on that later. By the way, you tell me if this is too long, you can stop me.
Lex Fridman
(00:34:53) Never long enough. It’s beautiful.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:34:55) Okay, so it happened here around four in the morning. Before this, I must honestly say everyone said something, predicted something, et cetera but I asked only for one thing primarily from the United States, if you are sure, if you have the evidence, if you talk to him and he tells you that there’ll be an invasion, if all this scares you, I only asked for two things. Send us weapons or better yet, strengthen us with preventive measures so there would be no war. It wasn’t the weapons that I was asking for. I asked for sanctions. Intimidate him. Please don’t say that if he comes, if he crosses borders, if he kills, we are imposing sanctions. Well, this is complete bullshit. Sorry but really.
Lex Fridman
(00:35:53) Oh, I understand this.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:35:54) Oh, wonderful. Yes.
Lex Fridman
(00:35:55) I understood one word.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:35:57) Yeah.
Lex Fridman
(00:36:00) So, they did not help.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:36:02) I believe that no and this is a fact. We didn’t receive help. If we assume that words are help, well then yes, we received a lot of it because there were plenty of words. Even more than plenty, yes. At four in the morning there were strikes. Morally, is it possible to prepare for war? No. It doesn’t happen like you read in books, see in movies and so on. What happens to you? I was just looking at my wife and children. My children were asleep but my wife was awake. There were strikes, missile strikes. We heard them. To you as a living person, how can this be? You just can’t fully believe this. You just don’t understand. Why now, given everything that happened in World War II when millions of people died? None of it mattered still at four in the morning around 4:00, 3:40, 3:45. Remember, around this time? Yes, there were missile strikes and later.
(00:37:27) By the way, a few days after the first days of the war, I spoke with Lukashenko on the phone and he apologized and he said that it was not me. Missiles were launched from my territory and Putin was the one launching them. These are his words. “I have witnesses and I apologize,” he said. But believe me, that’s what he told me. “Volodymyr, this is not me. I’m not in charge,” he told me, “I’m not in charge. These are just missiles. This is Putin.” I told him, “Don’t do that.” This was done without me. That’s it. On the phone, I remember this conversation. I told him, “You are a murderer too, I’m just saying.” He told me, “You must understand, you can’t fight the Russians.” I told him that we never fought them. I said, “It’s war. The missiles came from your land, from Belarus. How did you allow this?” Then he replied, “All right, retaliate then.” I still remember him telling me, “Hit the refinery. You know how much I care about it.” Mozyr Oil Refinery, is that it? Can’t recall. Mozyr Oil Refinery. I told him, “What are you on about? What retaliation?”
Lex Fridman
(00:39:00) Forgive me, Volodymyr.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:39:02) Yes.
Lex Fridman
(00:39:03) This was at five in the morning?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:39:06) No, no, no. This was during the first or maybe the second day. Second or third day of the war.
Lex Fridman
(00:39:11) Ah, I see.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:39:12) After that I went back home. I was home with my children, with my wife. I just went to my wife very quickly that night at four o’clock and just told her, “Get the children, get ready. You’ll probably need to go to my office very soon.” And I left. That’s it. At this moment, you are no longer a father. What happened to me, unfortunately, because I believe that this is, and not only do I believe I understand, especially now, that all of this is the most important thing because your country is your family. The strength is in your family and this is the most important thing. I’m the president and therefore, I had to stop being a father in my own family. And my wife had to do everything… She had to do everything regarding children, regarding safety and I had to deal with the state because I’m the president and this is my duty. And I, by the way, am taking this very seriously. I went to the office and here we are now. You’re very welcome.
Invasion on Feb 24, 2022
Lex Fridman
(00:40:31) Well, at that moment on February 24th, 2022, everything changed again. Just like in June 1941, everything changed and history took a turn. The history of humanity took a turn and for you too, you were the president. You were talking about fighting corruption, about the country’s freedom, about interesting and innovative reforms but that morning of February 22nd, everything changed. Could you tell me about that morning, the details of your actions when you had to quickly make difficult decisions? What was the process for you? How did you make these decisions? Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand how to respond to this invasion in every technical, political and military aspect? What was the process for you? How did you make the decision?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy
(00:41:34) According to our legislation, in principle, I am the supreme commander of the Armed forces of Ukraine, so I had to give corresponding orders. Yes, I have a military office and then later there was a military headquarters where all key people gathered. This is not only about the military, it’s about energy, et cetera, all key things. But at that moment, I made the decisions quickly and without a doubt and I cannot say that I am just that kind of person. I’m just a living person who believed that if help is needed right now to help, to help evacuate people, help with children. Several cities were blocked. I was only thinking about how to deliver food there within a day. We did a lot of things, although we understood that they in fact occupy part of our state.
(00:42:43) We distributed weapons to people, that’s how it was. Trucks came and simply distributed weapons to people so that they could defend the capital, to ordinary people just on the street, to ordinary people who understood that if the Russians entered a city, then we would have the same thing that’s happening in other cities per the information we received. Thanks to digitalization, by the way, we had very good digitalization before this. We preserved a lot and even when they were surrounding certain cities, a lot of things still worked. The banking system, the internet, we had television, and thanks to this, I made several decisions to ensure that people are united and have all the information. Russia is very good at spreading large scale disinformation. Fortunately, I have two decades of experience managing a production studio, TV channels and large media resources. I understood that we needed to build an information network very quickly.
(00:44:08) Thanks to this, I began to address the people constantly. This happened several times, three to five times a day. In fact, I became an information source for people who were in cities that were cut off from other information and it was very important for me to keep all things digital, to keep the internet, to stay in touch with everyone with all the people. Initially, that’s the contact we had and then we also built a media platform where we had all the news agencies of Ukraine and this network was called Marathon. It was also very important for the people to trust us and people had to receive information. Why? There were waves of Russian on the first day who said he ran away. I had to go out into the street, I left the office and went outside. I had to do this because I was showing that this was no green screen to show that it was the street, not some digital manipulation.
(00:45:25) I did these things. Then I touched various objects. Now, people might think that these are small things, but I was actually showing that I was in a real place. All of this had an impact. I was absolutely sure of my actions. And these contacts, several contacts and then I spoke to the Russians, I addressed Russians, I really did, and then only after that I gathered… It was the first day when I invited all of the journalists here, wasn’t it? That was on the first day, I think. Well, not here, to the press center in this building. I talked to journalists. I asked them not to leave because we needed weapons. At that moment, they were handing out rifles to people and for me, journalists and media platforms were essential voices.
(00:46:22) There were various journalists from different countries here and they were essentially stuck and I asked them for contacts, those who had access to Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs who understood everything, the same information, and I spoke to them and I spoke to them and spoke in Russian. I told them, “You must stop Putin. This is terrible. This is horror. This is war. You must stop him. And if you stand up now, if you speak out and if you go out into the streets…” This was very important. I spoke to them in Russian to show them that there was no problem and that all of these pretexts were made up. This is why it’s so painful to talk about the Russian language too because look, if a person does not want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language we speak.
