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Recorded November 1, 2025 - 921750

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

just leave but yeah that's that's fine did you get sick at the Canadian conference yeah you you both you motherfuckers both both dodged this do you I'm still like it's two week   later and I'm like still like hacking and coughing up stuff but   Is it like flu or cold or just something?   it was a flu because there was like, there was like fevers and chills and like, but yeah, I don't know what it is.   code that I don't like to gloat, you know, when I don't get sick, but like...   magical forest field.   now?   Well, it's just that, it's just, I'm not gloating, I'm just saying it's really strange that.   have been an amazing immune system and you're weak.  

it's just really strange how many people, I don't even know how I sidestep this thing that everybody's, know, everyone was in my apartment with, so.   uh   was in the apartment.   Like, I don't know how you dodged this.   Well, you were ah Joey, who got super sick, couldn't even do his show.   uh Boomer was not, he was sick, but he wasn't so sick that he couldn't fill in for Joey.   I kinda blame Boomer, cause like he was hugging everybody, I hugged him, it's like that, it was probably Boomer's fault.   I think I started the hug thing because I just hug everyone and I think boom.   I don't know if boomer was a pre hugger before he met me, but.  

uh   I don't attribute hugging to any of this.   No.   I mean, the last day at Bitcoin, well, we were like face to face.   The only way you could hear someone is if you're like within their breath zone because it's so loud.   Yeah, it was a steamy mess.   the top limit of hugging.   Some, you know what, sometimes we all need a software upgrade and they don't all sync at the same time.   So when you need it, you get it.   It's usually not a convenient time, but usually you're better for it.   So glad you're feeling better business gap.   Thank you very much.  

Who's this voice?   Who's this voice we're hearing?   you uh know, I'm actually really, really excited and honored, truly honored.   And that doesn't happen very often for me.   But our audience here, I think will understand.   I've never really talked about you on the podcast here, even though you are, you know, one of the absolute critical points of my origin story in Bitcoin.   So uh and I'm assuming I'm not alone in the world on this, but uh   We have on the show with us a very special man.   I wish this was my fish podcast.   I would draw this out for like 15 minutes before I said the name.  

guys, you guys understand what I'm talking about?   uh We have nobody caribou.   Let's just blurt it out.   Nobody caribou.   um So just so everybody here knows, I talk a uh lot about Jack Cruz as kind of the person who uh got me to   attention to Bitcoin, but he only like set the table for me.   oh I know I've shared the video when Jack was on Nick's podcast.   That was the moment I decided to take Bitcoin seriously.   I did it.   Damn it.   When Jack was on his podcast, that was like when I decided to take Bitcoin seriously.   And I want to say this was like November-ish of 2021 and I made this decision that I'm   I saw that he had a whole slew of videos on his site uh the Bitcoin stoa.  

I don't know if that still exists, but   It is, it has a different front name now.   It's actually going to be the Canadian orange podcast now, but it's still the actual RSS feed still says Bitcoin Stoa.   So I think that'll be permanent and maybe not publicly visible, but.   I love that because it was very inviting.   found it, you know, I found it inviting.   It's like the old, you know, town square, right?   So he had something like, so he had this uh series called School of Coin and I wanted to say, I want to say 20-ish episodes.   And I told myself, I'm going to watch one episode every day.  

And then when I get to the end, I'm either going to buy some Bitcoin or I'm going to move.   We're just gonna get deeper into this COVID vax rabbit hole where I was like starting to research snake venom and things like that.   So like this is either gonna save my life or I'm just gonna go deeper down whatever rabbit hole I'm in.   um you know, one of the things I just wanna emphasize that people know about me from coming in, I came in with a lot of conviction and I never shit coined ever.   um But it wasn't because, it wasn't because, uh   This is gets upset right now because we did an episode on Monero and that qualifies me as having shit coined.  

uh never really, I never got any shit.   uh That was a purity test fail intention and interesting conversation intention.   It's one of like I failed the shit coin test for like cuz I mean I was in and I had to learn my own lessons but yeah now it's it's very touchy for me because I like I was a shit   coiner and it feels just like a dirty part of my history   I got it, I got it.   think that's a stain.   I actually think it's the norm and it's like everyone comes to find Bitcoin in their own journey.   I don't think there's a wrong way of doing it.   ah The only wrong way of doing it is if you're still shitcoining and you don't get Bitcoin yet and then you're just not there yet, but it's not, don't, uh don't judge it.  

That's right.   I don't bring it up to judge.   I think everyone knows I don't judge this.   I don't judge these things.   It's just a fact.   It's just a fun fact that at some point I noticed in, you know, first couple of months of 2022, very few people come into this space, not, and never, you know, just sidestep that   whole thing.   And when I was thinking about it this morning about introducing you and I was,   thinking, okay, well, how many of those videos were, how many minutes of those videos were of Caribou telling me not to shitcoin?   I don't think you ever even mentioned the word once.  

I don't think shitcoins were covered in your School of Coin, like, at all.   And I think it's just the straight absence of that and the presence of Signal that got me focused.   So that's how I want to introduce our guest, Caribou, very special guy for me.   I think the first time, so I never saw any of your videos or your podcast or any of that stuff.   The first time that you really came to my attention was when you were, I saw videos like of the Canadian trucker protest, like the guy's shooting from inside his cab and here   comes your face sticking in the cab, handing over binders full of seed words.  

It's like, yeah, dude, this guy is awesome.   And so that was a very positive first impression on me.   But then...   about that, by the way?   That came a week after I finished watching his videos.   And the thing I noticed was it was the same dude.   Sometimes it's a different dude who does his instructional videos, who ends up in life.   And you see a video them in life, but dude, he just shows right up.   It was almost like another episode.   It's it's instructional.   It's like, hey, there's X grand worth of Bitcoin right here.   Let me just walk you really quick through the instructions on how to read the instructions and how   I'll be out of your cab in 60 seconds.  

And it was like the same dude.   I was struck by that.   was like, wow, that's really, that was a data point for me where I'm like, oh, so the guy that kind of taught me how Bitcoin works is like a real guy in the world who's actually,   you know, good.   It was the most perfect use case for Bitcoin that it was like just as Bitcoiners were like Bitcoin could save these truckers, could like extend this out.   like even like my Boomer oblivious parents were aware of what was going on with the trucker convoy.   And like my mom was like shocked whenever there were like single mothers were having their bank accounts frozen because they had donated to this.   Can you believe the stuff that's going on?  

was like, mom, so let me talk about Bitcoin again.   But yeah, so let's let's start there.   Like how how were you?   in a place that you were ready to do this and like nobody else was.   I mean, it wasn't intentional.   I kind of just fell into it.   Uh, when I first heard about it, I was 45 minute walk from downtown.   So I was like, okay, I'm hearing all this stuff.   I'm following along.   They had like these, um, this app for phones.   I was like a radio chat.   So it was like a, it was like a truckers radio hub, but it was in digital form.   And so you could tune in and hear people, you know, saying all these things.  

Truckers would say, we're   The convoys here were X amount of trucks were on our way were inbound and like all these like trucker terms and I could just hear I could just listen in on this.   It was like a live radio show of people just giving updates and I was like, hmm, this seems to be real.   Like, I still want to call bullshit on this because this can't be real.   So I was like, I'm just gonna walk down there on the first day and see if any truck show up because if two trucks show up, I'm like, okay, then it was all bullshit.   And sure enough, like there were hundreds of trucks, like giant semi trucks parked along the parkway on my walk in like   20 minutes before I even got to the downtown core, there were trucks lined up.  

I was like, my God, this is, this is kind of crazy.   and I just started knocking on caps and I was like, Hey, why are you here?   Like, why'd you come here?   Where did you come from?   And you know, one of the first guys I talked to was, uh, this young guy from Saskatchewan, which is like not, it's pretty far.   I was like, Hey, why did you come here?   And he's like, well, my family's suffering.   And the only thing I know to do is to just come here and show up with all these people.   I don't even know what we're doing here, but all I know is I, I just had to come.   And I was like, what's your plan?  

Like how long you staying for?   Are you staying overnight?   Or he's like, we're staying for as long as we need to stay.   And he said it with a dead stare in the eye where I was like, man, this dude's serious.   And so every day, literally I went, I mean, it was pretty cold in Canada, was February.   some days were like minus 30.   I started taking notes on a little notepad.   I'm an analog guy and like on the second day or something like that, my penning froze and my fingers were so numb from writing.   was like, I actually can't do this.   So I had to take voice notes on my phone when I was walking home each day to kind of debrief what I saw.  

Cause it was like kind of shocking.   Like all the, there's just so much going on, so much beauty actually.   Like everyone, you know, whether it was grandma's coming, groups of grandma's coming with cookies that were said freedom cookies.   like individually bagged cookies, putting them on these.   You know, the one thing about truckers is they are masters of logistics.   So there were flatbed trucks, strategically oriented as drop zones for food.   People would come, they would drop food.   There would be people that brought tents.   They would take the food off the flatbed.  

They would organize it into categories, toiletries, uh snacks, protein, and they would put it in these tents and truckers would just come and self serve.   And at a certain point, it actually wasn't just truckers.   was everyday people who drove their cars for like three days or something like that, or who were there overnight or whatever.   So anyway, I just kind of stumbled into it.   At a certain point, I started asking truckers what they need.   Never ask a trucker what they need.   They're, they basically say nothing.   And then, so I started saying, well, when you are going to need something, what's the first thing you're going to need?  

And a couple of them said, you know, it'd be nice to have warm coffee in the morning.   It'd be nice to have toilets that I don't have to walk half an hour to get to.   Um,   you know, later on, they're like, it'd be nice to have a clean pair of socks because I've run out of socks and I can't do laundry.   And I was like, wow, these are just simple or like a pack of cigarettes.   You know, I don't condone.   don't think smoking is good for you.   But at the end of the day, it's like these people are there away from their families for weeks.   Yeah, that's fine.  

I was like, all right, I'll get you a pack of smokes.   So anyway, I would just, you know, I'd go, I'd go out and buy a 12 pack of socks at a local store and bring them socks.   And some of these truckers would break down crying.   Literally.   I'm like,   You're coming here, just in your family, coming here for an undetermined period of time, sticking up for people you don't know, and I bring you socks and that breaks you down   crying.   It's like this is, it's a pretty, it was a pretty intense thing.   So what was the first federal pushback that you noticed that was going on in this?   Well, there were just so many games being played.  

Like the truckers were, they had road captains and they would coordinate with the police to make sure that everything was on side.   So, you know, they're lining up, they're keeping an emergency lane open and all the main vanes to make sure that if an emergency vehicle has to come, fire ambulance, they come.   Like these guys were with it.   They were very thoughtful about how they did this.   They weren't trying to screw anything up or blockade the streets.   um   And so I saw all these games, you know, truckers like, well, the police are telling us to go here, but now we're getting in trouble for being here.   So something's wrong either they're confused or they're sabotaging us.  

And I think the biggest glaring thing that I saw immediately was I would walk into, I would walk into downtown in the morning, do three or four hours.   And then I would come home for lunch and to warm up and just write some thoughts and you know, maybe tweet about what I saw.   And I would go to a local coffee shop where I lived in.   I would go there and people would say like, Oh, did you hear about this convoy thing?   You know, downtown is so dangerous.   You know, make sure you don't go there.   I was like, I literally just came from there.   It's amazing.  

No one's wearing masks.   Everyone's smiling and it's basically just a sanctuary of freedom.   Whereas the rest of Canada is like a prison of tyranny right now.   Like you should go check it out.   And they're all, they're all scared because they're all watching the news and the news is blatantly lying about what's actually happening.   So I saw firsthand like 45 minute walk out of the city.   people think that what's happening is totally different than what's actually happening that I'm seeing firsthand experience.   And I was like, Whoa, the propaganda in Canada is actually some of the craziest propaganda I've ever seen to the point where they're scaring people from even walking downtown and   seeing what's happening.  

So that was the biggest glaring thing to me.   And at a certain point, yeah, they needed, there was a certain quadrant that I was kind of taken care of, which was on my walk in and they were like, we need toilets.   and some of our trucks need fuel because   The heat in the cab relies on an accessory pump that's off of the main truck fuel.   So like, if we don't have fuel, we're going to freeze or we have to get hotels.   And once in a while they're like, you know, getting a good night's sleep in a hotel and having a shower would be nice.   So I was like, okay, I'm going to start raising funds because I'm sure Bitcoiners can resonate with this freedom cause.  

I'll just raise some funds.   I'll buy some coffee, maybe pay for a couple of hotel nights.   I'll rent some porta potties.   And that just like started one QR code and then shit just got crazy to the point where like at a certain   and then it's like, wait a second.   I was literally calling fuel companies saying, can I buy a fuel tanker for, do you take Bitcoin?   Can I order a fuel tanker to come to this quadrant of the city?   And can I pay Bitcoin?   People are like, bro, you can't order a fuel tank and you can't pay Bitcoin.   So there was like, it escalated very quickly beyond anything I wanted and frankly was prepared to deal with.  

But at the end of the day, that was, I had, I had generated the first QR code.   Ultimate responsibility was with me to make sure the funds got to where they were supposed to go.   And yeah, it was a wild time.   So here's the thing that I think is important for people to know about you.   This is the thing I love about you and why I think you're such an important person, at least for me.   You are this like, it's like anything that's possible.   You know, there's a lot of people that are like, oh, anything's possible, right?   There's a lot of people like that, that don't get like, oh, don't get stopped by small things, but they don't really, like they'll never be in a situation where they got more   than they bargained for.  

They just don't, they don't get out of bed and they don't do the things.   You have this, you know, can do like, dude, what's the problem?   Why can't we just get a fuel tanker?   Why can't we just, yeah, but why can't we just solve this problem?   Why can't we just give these guys what they want?   Like, what the hell, right?   Let's just do it.   Let's go, you know, like that whole meme of like, you can just do things that you are that dude.   And it's like to the point where in your youth, as you're still in your youth, you you might get yourself into a little trouble, but these are just learning.   These are learning experiences for the next thing that you're at some point, you're going to do something big and you're to have all these learning experiences like, oh, I need to   know how to keep this thing more private.  

I need to know how to keep this thing more organized.   I need to have a bigger vision for what this could be maybe on day one and not get surprised when it gets out of control because I'm the kind of guy that pushes through that   one little barrier that really hits the floodgates, right?   I might think I'm   I might think I'm just getting some coffee for these guys, but at some point it escalates.   Yeah.   Bitcoin.   It's like shit   It feels to me like the trucker protest was a bit, I mean, like a prototype for something that's coming later, because it was a bit early for people.   There was a lot of people that didn't understand Bitcoin that like, obviously, like the truckers that you're trying to buy fuel, they don't accept Bitcoin.  

Bitcoin was there as uh a tool that was ready to be used.   But it was just a bit early for us to be able to exercise that tool to really flex our freedom.   and our ability to be sovereign from the feds.   But at what point did the pressure start ramping up and they started like freezing bank accounts?   like, how did it go from they need fuel, they need socks to the feds are ushering them back out of the city.   Yeah, the I mean, the end game of it was pretty was pretty dark.   There were literally ah like military grade goons coming in and just breaking into trucks and dragging people out that weren't doing anything wrong.   They weren't doing anything illegal.  

Do we know who they were?   Were these feds or were these private contractors hired by the feds?   Okay.   were in full military guard with assault rifles against.   Yeah.   The whole shebang, even the police.   mean, they were like, saw so many weird tactics, right?   A lot of auto police weren't happy with what they were being asked to do.   It seemed like I talked to a lot of cops.   I was like, what do you think about this?   Like, what are you being asked to do?   What do you think about this?   I would just ask them questions.   Cause frankly, I, as a physio, I treated a lot of cops.  

I knew a lot of police.   They were good people.   Like they're.   They're not the enemy.   Physical therapist.   Yeah.   Physical therapist.   uh Yeah.   I treated a lot of RCMP, federal police.   I treated a lot of local municipal police, city police.   like, so I had relationships with humans who just happened to be police and I knew them.   And I was like, I didn't have this weird baggage where the police are the enemy.   But what I saw was that they were doing things that were not serving the people.   They were basically serving these masters, these political masters who are asking them to do really offhand shit.   And towards the end, I was kind of asking them like, have a choice.  

You either do the wrong thing that you're being told to do.   Either you just follow orders or you, you know, resign or refuse to do these orders under, you know, a superior moral code to just doing your job.   Um, and so they started bringing in police from out of city.   So they would bring in police from Toronto police from London that had no relationship with the city, no relationship with the people.   And we're just basically being, being told you're going into a war zone and you're going to mask up.   You're not going to show your face and you're just going to, you're just going to do this shit we're telling you to do.   And so I saw that people with no relationship to the actual city were being asked to come in and do something that someone in the city didn't want to do.  

And it was pretty nasty, you know, um,   dragging people out of trucks, removing them, arresting them.   That was the, that was at the very end.   mean, there's a lot of things, there were like waves of threats, right?   So there were like, you know, cause every time I would go around to truckers, these truckers are so nice.   I'd be talking to them.   They're like, come in the cab.   Like it's cold out there, get out of the cold.   So I would go in, hang out.   Some of them would ask to like make me a cup of coffee.   Like they're just the nicest, most calm, cool people, um, that no one really knows about.   Like truckers are like the thankless job that actually keeps the circulation of a country moving and alive.  

And yet...   We were told they were white supremacists.   Yeah.   I mean, people were told a lot of things in Ottawa.   was kind of crazy.   Um, you know, there's a, there's one just quick little nugget.   There was a young couple.   She was a paramedic.   He was a trucker.   She, they wanted to have a baby.   She was being told that if you want to continue being a paramedic, you need to take the job.   She said, I don't want to, because I don't have faith that that it'll be good for my body or my baby.   She joins her husband.   being a cross-border trucker.   they're doing trucking missions on the West coast together.  

They go down to California.   They have a, um, a freezer truck.   They would get vegetables and then they would come back to British Columbia.   So they would do these trucking missions and eventually they weren't allowed to do it anymore because they weren't taking the job.   So these two young people bought it, like literally went in together, bought a truck or going to start a family.   They come there, they have full uncertainty about what's going to happen.   They're not making any income.   They're basically like, we just came here because it was the only thing we could actually take action to do.   And that's not the typical, like big burly bearded trucker that you think of, like two young people that are just like trucking is literally what we had to do together to be   together and spend time together and to avoid, um, taking an injection that wasn't good for us.  

Like it was wild times.   Like people just kind of gloss over and forget.   think, um, what happened in Canada, happened in the world, but in Canada was especially nasty.   And that's the story that doesn't get told a lot.   And that was like,   That was the squeezing and the pain that actually served as a forcing function to get people to do this thing, which is kind of crazy to think of, right?   People literally just drive across the whole country on their own dime, go away from their families for an undetermined period of time to take a stand and go to the doorstep of the   politicians who are doing whack stuff.  

That's like a movie.   Like that doesn't seem real, but it was real.   And that was what maybe go back every day, despite it being super cold and despite it getting sketchy at the end.   So   So I think one thing I do want to say is people assume that the goal of the convoy was to like overpower the government or something.   And that was never the goal.   The goal was just to be there, be peaceful and respectful and show the world how nasty the government is willing to be to innocent, peaceful people to the point of freezing people's   bank accounts who donated to a, you know,   Who donated to a cause that opposed the government.  

They'll literally stop.   And if you live in Canada and your bank accounts get frozen, that could be death.   Because if you can't heat your home in the depths of winter, when it's minus 30 degrees Celsius, that's literally your survival is at stake.   So just think of how, how crazy that is.   That if you donated $20 to a legal cause of peaceful protest, you could literally have your financial livelihood just shut off.   That is some tyrannical nasty shit.   Yeah, that's like end level stuff of what us Bitcoiners are expecting is coming our way.   But it was shocking to see it so soon and so blatantly.  

Agreed.   And I think that woke a lot of people up, Canadians and people around the world.   It, you know, it fueled similar strategies.   you know,   approach was definitely the way to go, that's for sure.   Yeah.   And there were, you know, it was interesting.   There was a lot of military guys that, that actually were there and they, every day they would beat the drum, go on the mic and say, we need to be peaceful.   We need to be respectful.   We need to be aware that there's going to be people that are sent into crowds to incite, to incite shit with cameras right behind them to show that.   So there was a lot of awareness and there were a lot of leaders, you know, there was literally a security squad of mostly ex military guys that would go around and actually   just be.  

on like kind of undercover by standards to maintain the peace and to, and it was like a lot of people were talking about deescalation.   Here's how we deescalate things.   If something happens, this is what we do.   We stay respectful.   We stay quiet.   We stay peaceful.   We need to, we need to uphold that in order to show the world that the other side is willing to go down really desperate paths to maintain control.   So if the goal, if the goal wasn't to overpower them, it was just to show, have them show   how nasty they're willing to be in the face of peaceful people.   I think it was a resounding success.  

And the Bitcoin story was sort of the side story where Bitcoin was being tested on a world stage against state level resistance in an adversarial environment.   Yeah, not every sat got to the intended audience, but if you send money to a charity, how much of that money actually gets to the end recipient?   Less than 70%.   I don't know what percent it is.   zero, right?   In this case, it was like an   the Fiat rails, yeah, it was zero, but Bitcoin 70 % got to the intended recipients even.   And, and that was a pretty good test.   And that was probably the biggest stressor for me during the whole thing.  

It wasn't actually like standing and facing cops with rifles.   It was actually just.   If I mess this up, this is a, this looks bad for Bitcoin on the world stage.   Like there's a lot at stake with this.   So yeah, I definitely had, it definitely forged a lot of character for me.   And it was.   just what makes you you, but like I just challenge, I think that it would have ended up okay.   whatever would have happened with Bitcoin, I do think there was a bigger lesson we got.   And ah I wrote about it in my book, which would seem to have nothing to do with this.   Bitcoin for institutions, what does that have do with the truckers rally?  

But to me, this is like the really defining point.   about like what I want a suit coin or to know is that Bitcoin is freedom for people.   And if it stops becoming that you're holding a bag of nothing.   You're now you know 21 you're holding 21 million pretty worthless coins if it stops empowering freedom and resisting tyranny.   And that was a really important thing I wanted you know.   suit corners to really make sure they understand.   And it's almost like I won't work with them until...   That's why I had to write the book too, is to tell that story first.   And you just happen to be in the middle of that story.  

I read that section of the book again recently and I think it was really well written and I especially loved the front.   I read the intro or the prologue.   Pro-rogue?   Prologue?   Prologue.   I just loved how you worded it.   You're like, know what?   I'm doing this because I think I have something to say and...   I just loved how you worded it where it wasn't about ego, about writing something.   It was just like, I have something to say.   This seems like the right time to say it.   I think that book will be an extremely valuable resource for any institutional investor, anyone that comes from that world to get a primer on what is this thing?   Why is it important?  

Um, so thank you for writing the book.   Cause I think it's, it's kind of like this silent little thing simmering, but   I actually think it's a much more meaningful work than you'll probably appreciate.   And I think even with your podcast, both of you, it's like, you know, I may have been someone who inspired you through a podcast to go down your own journey.   The amount of people you will both inspire to go down their own journeys is a number you won't even know.   You won't even know how many people you affect, right?   You might meet a few people that are like, Hey, you inspired me to learn about Bitcoin and I started eight podcasts, um, because you started five and I had to do more than you.  

So you might never meet those people, but they're out there.   And podcasting.   Yeah.   Yeah.   I mean, when the student supersedes the master, the master has done his job and it's like you doing a podcast takes time and energy and effort.   And it's kind of thankless work initially, right?   You're not doing this to get to earn sats because it's not really a paid job, but I actually think it's such an important.   Like at a certain stage of a Bitcoiners journey, everyone starts, everyone feels compelled to contribute in some way.   Maybe that's a blog, maybe that's a book, maybe that's a podcast.  

And I think the, the fact that people just feel Bitcoiners feel compelled to do that as part of their contribution to Bitcoin, the world, to freedom is what makes this   unstoppable because   with ears here.   But let's pivot back to the protest.   OK.   on, real quick.   Hold on, hold on, hold on.   Sorry.   I need to say that that section, because it involved you and you're an important person to me, it was really important that I got that right and I had to shout out Boomer who   really, I was really careful to make that.   I had this weird scenario where it's like, know, Caribou, I know he doesn't know me, he doesn't talk to me, but he might pick this book up and read it.  

And if that happens, I don't want him to get upset by anything I messed up here.   wasn't upset.   I was honored Brian.   So thank you.   really helped me meticulously go through that section and then need to shout him out for that.   Shout out to Boomer.   interested to talk about the federal snapback retribution that was laid down at end of this.   So, okay, so they're physically removing truckers, they're impounding trucks.   What kind of pushback did you face for your part in this?   I mean, my house got raided by cops.   ah   Did read the book,   Yeah, yeah, I did read the, yeah.  

I I have to, I still have to be careful how much I talk about this mostly because there's still, I'm still on a class action lawsuit being sued for hundreds of millions of dollars   because I helped.   are books, there are books, there's honking for freedom, there are at least two pretty good books that, uh and there are, in my book you can find the references to what happened   to you without having to, I didn't want to have to say it.   think the best video interview was by Reason, Reason magazine, think Zach is his name.   And it was like a 10 minute piece.  

And it was actually a really good primer on Bitcoin for people who don't know about Bitcoin and it, it weaved through the story of sort of what happened.   I would, I'd refer people there.   It was a really good, it was probably the most well-rounded interview.   I did a lot of interviews, but that was the only one that really materialized into something, into a really good piece of work where I was like, that's true.   And that's actually, it zooms out to the point of not.   over-focusing on the event and actually puts it in perspective and serves as a primer on Bitcoin.   So shout out to Zach from Reason.  

that in the show notes if you can send that to us.   Yeah, I'll find it.   to aim the podcast at the lowest common denominator of the person who's done zero research and they're hearing about you for the first time.   sometimes, I haven't read your book.   So like, yeah, no, I'm aware of what I'm aware.   ah But no, like.   I'm gonna call it out like last time.   uh no, it our thing with Joey and Joe was like, dude, I listen to every podcast and oh we met, mentioned somebody who was like on the last episode and he's like, I don't know who   that dude is.  

I was like, are you serious?   But so the feds are still coming after you even today to the point that you are gagged about what...   not the feds.   It's a civil suit, um, by residents of Ottawa, which I was at the time and still am, which is super interesting.   Basically saying we had hardship because horns went off and we have, we have mental, we have health hardship because we heard too many honks.   And this is a class action lawsuit of these poor, poor victims against anyone who...   So it's not just you individually, against anyone who was...   there's a giant list to the point where there's like, I mean, put it this way when this resolves and I can speak truly about this thing, about how kind of crazy this is in a   really absurd way.  

I'll come on here and tell the story.   Cause there's lots of things that I have.   I took field notes every day from what I was seeing and there's some crazy events that happen.   it is a pretty crazy story.   Um, so I'm not.   I don't actually have a gag order.   don't actually have some like, know, they raided my house.   Nothing criminal came of that.   So they just stole my shit for two years.   Wouldn't give it back.   Like literally podcasting microphones, random stuff.   They just came in.   12 cops came into my house, raided my house, took a bunch of shit, stole, frankly stole shit with a bunk ass warrant saying I was money laundering, um, unfundling proceeds of   crime, which like there was actually no basis of, and then it just fizzled.  

They're like, yeah, it turns out you're, yeah, there's nothing.   So here's your stuff back.   uh   They were very, they were very nice, which made me get a sense that like, if you're being real nice, then you know, you did something real bad.   And I got that in my back pocket.   If and when I need to get some accountability for that.   Um, so it's not a, it's, it's not a criminal investigation.   It's not a federal thing.   It's literally just that I'm named as a defendant on a class action lawsuit.   And anything I say can be used against me in that lawsuit.   Um, until that thing is resolved.  

Now the loss it's been three and a half years.   It's not even certified yet.   So it's not even deemed an actual thing that's going to court.   It's literally just this group of people who think that they're entitled to something.   You know, I heard a comedian recently make fun of one element of it, which was this phantom honking syndrome where literally people are saying that they can still hear horns.   You know, it's, it's just, the whole thing is a bit of a, it's a good illustration that the justice system gets hijacked.   by fiat in a fiat regime.  

It's a great.   you're describing is literally the same lawfare that the Church of Scientology used to make the IRS back off.   It's like they were doing individual, like the church itself was like handing out, all right, you're gonna go after this person, you're gonna go, and like, and they individually   were suing in civil court IRS agents, and that was enough.   Eventually the IRS was like, all right, you know what?   You guys can have religious exemption.   Everybody I know who runs like 10 miners or, you know, gets threatened with lawsuits from these types of lawsuits all the time.   Like they're fucking psychologically damaged from hearing the miner from, you know, that's sitting in an industrial facility.  

Right.   And I mean, not to say that there's not more to what's going on with you, but there's a lot of frivolous lawsuits out there too that just people...   I think the hardest thing for you has to be not to able to talk about it, then and just also feeling betrayed by your fellow man.   And I just think of knowing who you are, those two, like having to downgrade your view of humanity probably is painful for you, ongoingly, and trying not to get demoralized by it.   No, I mean, frankly, it doesn't affect me very much.   I, at a certain point, I was just like, I need to accept that this is something that's uncertain and unknown.  

And I'm not going to let it take any energy from me because there's way too many exciting things.   made too, way too many things to look forward to, to be bogged down by this.   Is it annoying every time I get an email from the lawyer saying this is what we need to do, blah, blah, blah.   It's like, yeah, it's annoying.   It's frustrating.   And I'm not going to, you know, there's too much in life to just savor to be distracted by Fiat bullshit.   You are clearly not a person who's going to just sit still and just wait for things to happen.   let's, so which direct, where are you going now?  

The, at the Canadian conference, you put on a very compelling presentation that I'd like to hear you talk about.   Yeah, I think, I think the root cause of the problem in Canada, in the world, but specifically I'm to go in Canadian context is broken money.   think a lot of us, you know, there's this meme in Bitcoin, fix the money, fix the world.   It sounds like a trope, if you don't understand it deep enough, it's actually the truth.   and I think it's time for Canadians to take a bit more responsibility to get out of this problem.   And the fundamental problem is broken money.  

Um, and I, I, know, Henry Ford has this really   magical quote that I love and I really think about it frequently.   And he says something like, you know, it's, well enough that people of a nation don't understand our banking and monetary system for if they did, I believe there'd be a   revolution before tomorrow morning.   And essentially what he's saying there is if people actually understood how money and banking worked, there would be outrage in a minute and change would happen real quick.   so stemming from that quote is the idea that   People in Canada don't know they're being stolen from.  

They don't understand inflation.   So they don't actually know how nasty the money system is and how, how many problems downstream it's creating.   And so the Canadian orange party is, is a, is a mission to offer a third option to Canadians instead of red or blue, which is the non-bit corner options basically for   Canadians, which isn't actually a choice.   It's really the illusion of choice.   Cause neither of them, neither team addresses the root cause of broken money.   Um, and then for Bitcoiners, the choices are you either leave Canada or you insulate yourself from the accelerating fiat chaos.   Those are also both shit choices because you have to leave your friends and family behind and just, um, basically.  

Sacrifice your country, like surrender your country to these parasites that have essentially positioned themselves into, um, being able to control the money.   So the third choice is orange.   And for the non-BitCorner orange is a party that   transcends this whole blue red paradigm and basically says, we only have one problem to solve.   until that problem is solved, all the other subordinate problems are kind of like not, they don't really matter that much yet.   Most of them get solved by solving this, this problem.   And I come from a world of health.  

And the way I look at it is like Canada has become sick and it has become infected with this Fiat parasite and the cure is Bitcoin.   And the only way that cure can be administered is if enough people understand the problem can help.   solve that problem.   So the Canadian Orange Party is basically a, and then for Bitcoiners, the orange choice is we coordinate and we win and we reengage with um the process of policy, right?   Like if I lose faith in politics and I think it's all just the theater, make-belief theater and a LARP and I select out and say, that's nonsense.   I'm not going to pay attention to it.  

Yeah.   Well, the problem there is it becomes a vacuum where the parasites go in and they eventually affect your life and they eventually affect your family.   unless you leave the country.   So, you know, the smartest people that understand how the world actually works and are really good capital allocators and builders, if they select out of the political pool,   they leave a vacuum where parasites can go in and they actually take themselves out of being able to do good.   So the Canadian Orange Party is basically voicing that we have a choice to make.   We need to re-   reengage with the process of uh civic involvement.  

Civic engagement is something we need to reengage with.   We can leave fiat politics behind, but we have to participate in vocalizing what we think needs to be solved.   And so the Canadian Orange Party is just, let's fix the money so we can fix Canada.   We can still deal with all the derivative effects after, know, immigration, health, all these big problems um do exist and need to be confronted.   But under a fiat money regime, none of them can actually make meaningful progress.   So why don't we coordinate and focus all of our efforts on just the one problem and   Can I hit something here?  

Because Canada could decide right now that they're never going to print another uh Looney ever.   They can decide that right now and the money will still be very, very, very much broken because the real problem downstream is the US.   Right?   I mean, the reason you guys are paying what you pay for milk is because of what the US is printing.   Really, that's, know, U.S.   money printing is why everyone in the world has inflation, ultimately.   And there's almost nothing, there's almost nothing you can do about it, really, except for disrupt what, except to disrupt that system, which I do think ultimately, I do think   ultimately Bitcoin does disrupt that system.  

Even the things I don't like about Bitcoin are disrupting that system.   And so that, I do think that, so I guess I just wanted to close, you know,   get a little more specific about what you guys are trying to affect.   Yeah, I think the immediate action is to bring so people need to understand what inflation is.   So there can be some righteous anger that can be transmuted into the people taking action.   If we use milk as just a context example, I agree that we don't exist in a vacuum and that, you know, our neighbors down south who I love very dearly and I'm kind of jealous of   right now, um, do play into that paradigm.  

But what I will say is gallons, thousands of gallons of milk are basically poured out every day in Canada wasted because   of government and pro imposed rules that say you can't produce more than this.   So literally, it's like all these morons making rules that are making milk expensive for everyone because they think they're doing good.   If that disappeared, milk would be 75 % off overnight.   That has nothing to do with the states that that has everything to do with these stupid rules that disrupt free markets.   And I think if we pare it back to money, if you don't have a free market and money,   You don't have a free market in anything else.  

If you have a free market and money, you have an opportunity, not a guarantee to have free markets elsewhere.   And so I think all this, these layers of Fiat bureaucracy have just been added and added and added over time as a derivative of the fact that they can just print money and spend   whatever money they want to pay people to impose random arbitrary rules that benefit a select few at the expense of the many.   And that's all part of the Fiat beast of broken money.   Are you aware of this ostrich situation?   Yeah, it's, mean, that's just one example, dude.  

There's a thousand of those examples that haven't gotten the media coverage of a bunch of ostriches and it happens all the time.   What is the ostrich situation?   the government doing fiat things, killing ostriches.   I don't actually know much about it.   All I know is it's terrible.   hundreds of thousands.   I don't know if that's right, but there's like, hold on, hold on.   They're saying that it was like that they had COVID like three years ago.   um And uh I want to tell you, the one conspiracy theory I've locked in at all times is the um US will say bioweapons.   uh testing bioweapons out everywhere.  

And I'm guessing there's evidence of US bioweapons in, you know, on these ostriches and they want, they just need to get rid of the evidence.   But like, they're just going to dispose of, uh and I'm reading a book now called Bitten, which is about how we use ticks to, and this is how Lyme disease actually came about, but   we programmed ticks to put diseases in people, bypass their immune systems, that really diabolically pretty genius.   way and you know there's a lot we don't know.   I'd say almost anytime I see something like this where we're just murdering animals, yes there's a story from there's a cover of we've been doing this for like over 100 years.   Nixon stopped this tick program that's how long ago it got stopped right?  

And yet people are still really worried about ticks and even in Canada.   mean, we have a family farm.   There's ticks there.   frankly, I'm...   it the Great Lakes very hard, and then it hit the Northeast.   Yeah, I refuse to be afraid of nature.   So as much as I might know about it, I also believe that people underestimate the capacity of the human body to buffer whatever nonsense has been created.   And I think when you're scared, the fear of ticks might be the immune suppressor that makes you susceptible to being, to getting Lyme disease.   Like there's just so much, I think, yeah.  

Yeah, no, now that is mine.   I don't want to derail things.   just, it's like you, yeah.   I got to go in 60 seconds.   got an Irish exit in 60 seconds, but I will definitely be back and I look forward to longer form conversations.   um If you're Canadian, go to CanadianOrangeParty.com.   If you're not Canadian and want to support the Canadian Freedom Movement, go to CanadianOrangeParty.com.   Our GitHub repo is fully open source.   You can see everything we're working on.   We're working on it in public.   If you want to donate or zap sats, you can do it there.   And you know, I learned a lot from the Freedom Convoy and   I feel like all of those lessons came into my life so that I could be part of the orange party and do it in a way that protects everyone involved and is done right and done   transparently and done, you know, in a really thoughtful, methodical, strategic way.  

uh, you know, can the people of, of Canada, the big corners of Canada are probably going to save Canadians.   Most Canadians won't even know what happened or that they were saved, but, um, I appreciate all big corners who, you know,   Offer input, zap sats, participate and, uh, Bitcoiners like yourselves who gave me the floor to talk about it because it's, this is the only way the word gets out.   And if we can raise 21 Bitcoin for truckers that came to the Capitol in three weeks, I'm curious to see what the orange party can do in Canada, um, to actually accelerate change   when all the Bitcoiners around the world can actually focus and harness and shoot their energy into a focal point.  

to get orange politicians into parliament, into positions of leadership and actually, actually talk about the heinous act of broken money.   So.   Thank you.   We'll do this again, man.   Appreciate it.   man.   Bless your work.   Peace.   Don't hit stop.   We have no music yet.   We have more show to do.   We're only 45 minutes in.   yeah, we're gonna keep rolling.   Alright, yeah, that was cool though, right?   Dude, he's so inspiring.   Look forward to doing that again.   So I looked into the logistics of, okay, how could, like, if I wanted to start an orange party in Pennsylvania, what would I do?   And it's, I've publicly made fun of Elon Musk for saying like, I'm gonna start my own party with the blackjack and hookers.  

Like everybody wants to start a third party, but it feels like in America, at least, it's not like, it's just pissing in the wind to think that a third party could solve something.   But at the same point, Bitcoiners, like we have,   We have the whole backbone and infrastructure kind of laying out already.   We have meetups that are distributed going on across the country.   And what do you need to start an alternative party?   You need signatures and you need people that are interested.   If there was any group that could challenge the two-party system, it's going to be Bitcoiners because we're going to have the revenue to do it.   It's not, yeah, but I mean, if you like think this is what you should spend your life doing, you should do it because that's just, you know, that's what God's telling you.  

I would say that, you know, we don't need the political system to accomplish what we need to do in our life.   ah And, you know, I've said this many times before, but like, I hate to say it to people.   but like.   Blackrock with one kind of stroke of their pen is going to do more than at least in America, all the mobilizing anybody would do.   Like literally Blackrock coming in and just diarying out bonds out of all their portfolios, if that's what they end up doing over the next five years, is really like   that's the force lever that anyway, it's not even going to matter what we do.  

That's going to happen.   It's going to happen.   politics are going to matter a lot less as they get defunded.   quote, it's like, if voting mattered, they wouldn't let us do it.   And yeah, I think like, you know, shout out, there's a lot of our friends who have this view, like, you know, that even validating, validating the system is in some way, you   know, pretty shitty.   I think everyone just does what they have to do.   I felt compelled to vote this past time around and certainly paid a lot.   I paid a, paying every price for it.   I think it would be the same if I didn't.  

It's just one of those things.   It's like, you have the Sophie's choice and, but I don't know, like,   getting involved in politics in the United States, think is a, I don't know, that's a tough, that's a tough thing I would say to justify.   I could see why in Canada, it's just a different ball game and it might matter and it might make a lot of sense.   And I think as I just, trust Caribou's Spidey sense on this and I'm definitely going to like, at least like look in and pay attention to it.   um So what about here?   What about here?  

What do we got?   I gotta tell you dude, we have quite the week.   Quite the f- I mean, I know you've been sick.   You've been- You're still sick here?   I had- I got- I got over complete- I was telling people I've reached Farrington levels of autism this week.   Over- um   quite a bit of chatter in the Telegram chat.   I've been everywhere.   mean, most people aren't gonna fucking care about what happened here, but like...   that are listening care.   Okay, so I found myself...   you ever just feel like, do you ever feel totally gaslit and like, do you ever have a friend who just lies to you but not about anything that matters and then you try to tell   people that they lied about that and people are like, well who cares?  

Yeah, I mean, to be fair, the previous worst versions of myself would lie for no reason.   It's like, it's just one of those, you push a boulder down the hill and it just keeps going.   But you ever that guy that's like, dude, do know that this guy actually, this guy said like, this guy told me his hair was blonde and it wasn't.   And the person you're telling isn't like, aha, wow, great find.   It's a person's like, why do you care?   Why are you even bothering with this?   I'm like, yeah, but because this guy is like, this guy's running from mayor.   And he actually, he's running from mayor.  

Well, no, but he's sitting there with his brown fucking hair and he told me right to my face that his hair was blonde.   Okay?   And everyone's like, who cares?   No, dude, you don't understand.   You're looking light about that.   So I had this experience this week with two big, important, powerful parties in the Bitcoin space.   One with a name, Strategy, the other without a name, which is what I would call the Bitcoin media slash club slop ecosystem.   Okay.   Got these two parties and I don't know who's going along with who, who's lying to who, but what I do know is that there is definitely information that was put out as that was not   correct.  

And I was trying to get to the bottom and I was trying to do it in the face of not having all the information.   Okay.   So oh what am I talking about here is, you you wake up on Monday and the entire feed is full of uh   In my world, plebslop around MicroStrategy getting this credit rating for the first time.   This B-minus credit rating for the first time and everyone is jizzing all over the internet about it.   ah This opens the floodgates.   This is the greatest newest thing.   This is incredible.   This is unbelievable.   Bitcoin is legit.  

MicroStrategy is legit.   Digital credit is legit.   B minus.   on and on.   And I'm sitting here and by the way, people who listen to the show may not remember, but I have mentioned on previous occasions that I happened to find out a nugget researching my   book that MicroStrategy had their credit initiated three days after Bitcoin 2024 on July 30th of 2024.   And they got a B minus rating.   And actually it was a really awesome report because S &P   talked about how they don't really know anything about micro strategy, but they kind of like Bitcoin now.   And so they're upgrading them to V minus.  

And the plebslop intelligentsia should have run wild with that.   You would have thought that if any of them knew.   So I was just going to every account like Luke Milchich and Sipley Bitcoin and just quote tweeting like,   Are you really guys telling me these guys would not have covered this story if it happened in 2024?   Are you telling me they didn't care, right?   So like to me, the suppression of that story, I remember finding this out in like January when I was writing the book and I was thinking about how did this story never get told?   And I thought maybe it had to do with Sailor.  

I he clearly didn't.   tweeted himself so he didn't want to bring attention to it.   But is it worse than that?   Did he do something evil?   Maybe.   I don't know.   Is there a nefarious that he tell people like, don't cover this, don't put the story out or else I will blah, blah, blah.   don't know.   I don't know the answer to this.   We know he didn't like it because he didn't tweet it himself.   So that's all we know.   Okay, I have put a story together that I think this podcast will appreciate.   I've got the receipts now.   Okay.   So this thing clearly did happen, right?  

And it was, nobody knows, I need to, so I, by the way, so uh I went on bitcointreasuries.net, told the whole story.   I sent this to Nolan and he, uh on Tuesday, he held my book up and   was he had Rizzo on and he was like, Rizzo, this gentleman, Brian, who if you remember, the guy I interviewed, Lepard, he was, you know, he sent me this thing last night about   how S &P actually got their rating on 2024.   And, know, he caught Rizzo by surprise and just, it like, you know, it kind of just exemplified nobody, nobody fucking knew, like even, you know, to me, Nolan's as legit as   it gets.  

He had no, you know, he had no idea, right?   uh   part of shtick is he tweets about, here's the orange dot, we're buying Bitcoin.   he's very much on the propaganda side of his company.   So if he doesn't tweet it, nobody knows.   mean, that's what I'm thinking.   At the very least, could have been, I'll call it innocent.   I'll call it on the up and up from his perspective.   He's not doing anything necessarily wrong by not tweeting it.   It's his right.   It's his fucking business.   But the plebslot factory doesn't find out.   It's like a tree falling in the woods.  

The plebslot factory isn't there to hear it.   It doesn't make a sound.   Because this should have been a big story.   Should have been a big story then.   This is a story about S &P during choke point being one of the only TradFi companies to say, you know, we like Bitcoin enough to upgrade this company, even though we don't really   like this company that much.   Triple C plus.   And the difference is Triple C plus, can't, the insurance company can't buy you.   It be minus, it can.   And, you know, at the time, this is before their whole uh preferreds complex.   They did this convertible offering.  

And Munich Re a couple of really big insurance companies were big buyers of the thing.   it was true that it opened the floodgates.   Everything all the pleb slop jizzers were saying this week is true.   It's just, it's not true now.   It's been true for a year and a half.   eh Right.   So that's the first kind of piece.   And it's like, we live in a world where that is unknown.   So now we're in the Tower of Babel here, right?   We're communicating, we're communicating past each other.   I'm sitting here thinking all these people are insane.   They're either insane or they're totally going along with it.  

And what I really want to know is when I make, if I make this information fully known, will they still go along with Sailor's narrative, which is that this is happening for the   first time.   And where are they getting the, where are they, how do they, how, what are they, the gall?   to this is happening for the first time.   I'm clearly, clearly the receipts are sitting on S &P's website, right?   And then I listened to the, um I listened to the earnings call and their CEO literally says, got this, we got this, it's rating for the first time.   And I'm like, now really losing my fucking mind.  

Pepe Silva is flipping the fuck out.   Okay.   Like why they're still doing it.   What the hell?   What, what, what is this?   So then I found, I found really the last piece of kind of the last important piece of information.   which is that um in December of 2024, what strategy did was they paid down all their debt so they can get that rating rescinded.   So S &P on their website says, we've rescinded their rating.   oh   Okay.   So let me give you one more, let's just put one more data point in the loop because we did an entire podcast episode here about it.   Do you remember when we talked about Safe going on, sorry, Sailor going on Safediend's podcast and being all belligerent and insane?  

Well, what was happening?   So timetable, the B minus comes on July of 2024, right?   ah What's happening now is Sailor's arguing with S &P.   They're saying you're wrong.   You know, this rating's too low.   Let me and what they're doing is and what they do is what everybody does, which is uh when I say everybody like banks, insurance companies will say to S &P, uh we're going to give   you our own models.   We're going to give you our own models so that you want because you do not understand, just don't understand what you're looking at.   And he's right.  

He's completely right.   And he's getting he's getting increasingly frustrated with S &P because they don't know what they're looking at.   And when he went on Safedeans podcast,   He was really rolling out and I think giving a road test to these models, to SAFE.   And SAFE was just not having it and Sailor blew his fucking lid.   This was September, okay?   So the rating action happened in July.   He's going back and forth with S &P, with his models.   I'm making all this up because the documentary hasn't been released.   I'm making it all up and I'm pretty sure this is the timeline, right?  

He's going back and forth with S &P during this time with his models.   He goes on SAFE's podcast and SAFE is like, this is bullshit.   It's all denominated in US dollars.   just loses his mind, right?   Because he's probably being 10 times as belligerent with the S &P analysts that he was with SAFE.   You have to imagine this.   You have to imagine the S &P analysts just getting like increasingly frustrated and telling.   And I think that's why they just don't like MicroStrategy.   They don't like Sailor.   They don't understand the company.   They're fine with Bitcoin.  

And so they're telling him to go fucking pound sand.   So finally, the first capitulation is fine.   Resend our rating, right?   Obliterate it.   And I think he really thought like, when you see our new preferreds complex, you're going to really, you're going to really like it.   Everybody else loves it.   You know, this is, remember when I said sailor became a, he went from George Lucas of like the original trilogy to George Lucas in the prequels.   Remember I said that during this, after the Safedeme podcast?   I think that's, mean, you look at what goes on, I mean, if you look at what goes on on Twitter, everyone's just slobbing his fucking rod.   Yeah, he's very much used to just the entire space deferring to him and just like, oh wow, you're such an innovator and doing these things.  

And then until he runs up against somebody who knows what they're talking about, like safe, and who can point out things.   Well, yeah, but even what's worse is running into the people he needs to understand it and they don't.   And so what I'm saying is you have to imagine, I'm guessing, Saylor blew his stack on these S &P guys on several occasions.   the irony is I think Saylor's right.   think he's right about his case.   But it's too early to assume that the S &P 500, the type of employees that would be employed by that legacy financial company would like.   called S &P Global.  

The S &P 500 is just another product that they have.   I want people to know, by the way, the inclusion in the S &P 500 has nothing to do with their credit rating.   like Chinese walls are in between their debt, like their credit desk and their equity desk.   that's another thing.   Bitcoin Twitter is as retarded as it gets in processing all this information.   God love all you guys, okay?   But they have nothing, this has nothing to do with inclusion in the S &P 500.   saw so many tweets are like, oh, now we're 70%, there's a 70 % probability they're gonna get included in the S &P 500.   Like, not because of this.  

S &P hates them.   And even if that's true, even if S &P really, even if they hated them on the debt side, the equity guys,   likely don't even know.   It is a Chinese wall, theoretically, in between these two companies.   So once again, the two pieces of information that needed to be put in place are the B-minus from 2024 and then from July of 2024.   And then in December of 2024, they rescind their ratings.   And then last week, S &P then says, okay, let's do this again, B-minus.   And everyone's like, yeah, it's like the Simpsons meme, know, like, the line Bart.   And everyone just cheers.  

Oh, it's the first time.   This is so big.   I had a boss once.   I had a really, really sharp boss and he had a saying.   The saying was, if they're going to run you out of town, you may as well get in front of it and call it a parade.   Right, like all information wars require some level of ignorance upon the general people that are being propagandized.   yeah, Saylor, obviously, he is running his own information war.   I mean, all Bitcoiners, once you have the light bulb moment of Bitcoin, you realize, I'm smarter than the legacy finance people.   You start to assume, I'm the smartest person in the room.  

And amplify that times a million, and you have Michael Saylor.   You're not smarter.   And the reason, you're just less retarded and it feels like you're smarter.   Right?   This is like, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, right?   Like you just realized that you're less retarded than everybody and that is like, holy shit, how is that even possible?   uh Yes.   Oh yeah.   ego thing.   It's getting a slight boost to your ego that is like, I'm also getting rich, so I must be right.   But he is right.   it's sort of, to me, the point I want everyone to take away here is not about micro strategy at all.   They're free, like to me, this is a valid move for them, right?  

It's totally valid.   I am glad I am here to hold them accountable for their messaging, right?   But I want you to know that I believe that these three things, these three rating actions, that's totally valid for them to want to do, right?   What I, I, the takeaway that should be disturbing to everybody is the knowledge system is completely ignorant, right?   They've completely hijacked the knowledge system.   And so the knowledge system is, done, is run by plebs lot factories who are going to continue to, you know, put for push forth micro strategies narrative.   It's they're the problem.  

They are the problem.   or anybody online, like Bitcoiners who are, it's much easier to import just what you're being told and assume it's truth.   This is the, like, the number of-   hold on, I'm not even talking about the simply bitcoins, like the ones we know.   I'm talking about uh the MSTR bros that are, uh and not to disparage them, but they do present themselves much more credibly than the pleb sloppers that are out there.   Suit slop is a higher quality than pleb slop.   But it's different standard and your reputation matters a lot more.   You know, and these guys are still, these guys are all over missing the story.  

And uh it's kind of like so disgusting to me that it's just everywhere.   Like really, even these guys can't don't, these guys don't go to S &P's website just to open one document and verify the story.   Yeah, I think this could potentially be highlighting how few people actually do their own research.   Nobody does.   I'm telling you, it's like, so I'm the only one who knows this.   Unless you heard this from me, you didn't know this.   That's not true.   got a shout out Joey.   Joey knew.   Joey knew about this.   So this is all going on in the rock paper.   And you know, shout out Joey, man.  

Does a daily show.   So like very little gets by the guy, right?   You do a daily show, dude.   You actually have a decent chance of knowing, you know, of knowing what's going on.   ah   You know, Nolan is great.   Nolan held up our Rock Paper B- He held up the Rock Paper Bitcoin shirt that you gave him.   And I think Nolan is like one of the most legit journalists out there.   He just didn't know.   And he does a daily, you know, he does a daily show.   Sure.   I mean, to do a daily show, mean...   about MicroStripe.   I don't think he does care.   He's not plugged in that world doesn't care about them that much but like it's just um Nobody nobody nobody found this I'm not and so like I I just I need to get this out of my   system so can fucking move on right but um Yeah, Farrington levels of autism this week on chasing this thing down   So a B minus rating allows them to be included and bought by funds that would not, that couldn't purchase a C, C, plus or whatever.  

But so like, does this like, so you're presenting this model.   It's like, what do you expect would happen next?   It's like, is there.   think you're allowed to buy them, but you pay a pretty hefty capital charge in doing so by owning them.   So in other words, the capital regulator still finds it risky, but at least there's rules for how to handle it.   what...   Sailor thinks they should be AAA and I'm here to tell you guys that's not going to happen for a long time.   um If I have anything to do with it, I would like to accelerate their upgrades.   If I have something to say, I think that'll happen.  

But they're not AAA.   Big reason why is custody.   S &P is years away from even asking the custody question.   Yeah, like for sure.   Like I agree with this.   Like, of course, the micro strategy is sitting on the most pristine collateral that humans have ever interacted with.   So of course they should be rated AAA.   But yeah, the question is, okay, so yeah, the custody model is the big question.   It's like, at what point will they be rugged?   It's like, will it be the feds that rug them?   Will it be coin based?   We don't know they'll be rugged.   We don't like, in other words, we don't, we just don't know.  

We just don't know.   We don't know they'll be rugged.   mean, like, listen, my, my, my base case is that they're fine.   Okay.   Right.   It's like my base case, but there's enough of a likelihood of a total loss that I don't think you can call them some AAA company.   In fact, I don't think you can even call them investment grade until you know, you can actually, you know, give some confidence that the custody.   is uh competent.   We don't know any of this.   We've seen nothing.   MicroStrategy is incredibly transparent with what they provide to the public.   They don't provide anything on this.  

So uh it's just one of those things.   we see uh some best practices there, you know, don't know.   And look, it's not, I'm not   Again, MicroStrategy shouldn't have to build every single fucking structure in the world for accepting Bitcoin in this space, but it looks like they're going to have to.   And so it's just going to take a really long time.   They're really the only company trying.   You can't say a hundred things in one breath.   It's going to take time.   And I think the custody thing is probably the last thing they want to hit.   And that's probably a good decision.  

And by the time they do it, maybe they'll be ready to actually, uh you know, make a, make a persuasive case for why it's fine.   Yeah, when I think about company, Bitcoin companies that I trust their custody model, like River is infinitely higher than MicroStrategy for me just because, It's like...   still wouldn't call them a AAA company though.   don't know when they're higher, but I don't know.   I wouldn't know enough about...   I'd need to go in there.   I would need to see these things with my own eyes.   mean, you know, there's nobody that we've seen.   You we just haven't seen...  

You know, we haven't seen anything that is airtight.   That's why we talk about holding your own keys and that's why it's so important.   There is still like we are kind of we have we have the genius act out now about stable coins, but like the like the federal guidelines of how to do like what does the federal   government consider acceptable custody?   I mean, like it is still a bit of a gray area.   so like and I mean, on a long enough timeline, like Bitcoin is going to demonetize the feds.   And that's when I like, OK, they're going to look around or is the empire going to die?   Or is the empire going to seize the funds available that they can seize?  

And that's the threat to MicroStrategy stash.   If you want to operate in the US, you're going to have to comply with what the federal government's telling you to do.   Yeah, don't think that the micro strategy strategy, they don't care about that.   Okay.   But they're building what they are building this Bitcoin based fixed income complex that is going to probably be the only market in the world for us.   The only market in the world for that.   know, BlackRock is like, I talk about a lot about BlackRock basically eliminating fixed income and replacing it with Bitcoin.   Right.  

But what   MicroStrategy is doing is for people who aren't willing to do that extreme move, right?   You can just replace, you can also replace your debt with debt that's sort of denominated in Bitcoin.   And MicroStrategy is going to be pretty much the only company possibly in the history of the world who can do this.   And so they're probably going to be the entire market.   They don't care about complying with, you know, I think they care.   So I think they care that their custody is good, but they have to care what people think about that.   They have to be able to demonstrate it.  

You know what I mean?   Like, so they don't care about compliance.   You know, the government, I think the government's gonna lose their keys too.   So like, I think the government needs to demonstrate, I'm worried about a strategic reserve for that reason.   I said this a year ago in that round table that my fear of a strategic Bitcoin reserve is that we don't.   have competent people managing it in the government.   Micro-strategies would be miles ahead of that.   What if it's the same guy at Coinbase that has to do both?   Well, then I may be a little worried about micro-strategy at that point in time, because it's basically a matter of who gets out first at that point.  

Strategies never get out.   Yeah, like the threat, the threats to Bitcoiners are different depending on what type of Bitcoiner you are.   like certainly MicroStrategy is a much different type of Bitcoin entity than a hodler like you or I.   So necessarily like their threat model is going to have to include things that like um I am not so worried about the federal government becoming insolvent.   And so them trying to 61 and to my Bitcoin.   It's like that's hard.   Like, they will try, but...   mean, it's not because they're not evil enough and it's not because they're not.   It's just, there's bigger, I just think there's bigger fish to fry.  

there's lower fruit to be grabbed than individual hodlers like us.   They're going to go for microstrat, they're going to go for the publicly available funds that they can just seize.   I don't even see that, I just don't see that.   think they will partner with...   See, they're gonna just partner with BlackRock and partner with MicroStrategy.   The US didn't become what it is by taking the biggest companies in the world and tyrannically seizing them.   I'm not worried about what the country used to be.   It's like like the   not what I'm saying.  

I'm saying that they still have the aspiration of being the place where free markets exist.   I think the world relies on them to do that because nobody else wants to run a free market.   It's true.   No other country in the world has the tyrannical will to run a free market like the United States does.   I agree, but I mean the United States has already stepped back from that even appearance of a free market by seizing Russian treasuries.   ah It's nuanced.   It's true.   Yes.   uh I learned a lot more about that.   you know, when I wrote my book, I realized that my knowledge of seizing Russian treasuries was strictly from consuming plebs lot.   And then when I wanted to write about it, I was like, shit, it's a lot.  

It's actually it is more nuanced.   uh Interestingly enough, I had to use like Russian.   I'd use Russian search engines to.   uh   get into actually get decent information about that and about the trucker protests about, I got to use the index to get, uh to find out what happened to the GoFundMe's and the   Canadian protest and also to find anything objective about this Russian seizure.   The real thing we did with Russia really was kick them off Swift.   uh That, you know, we got, we got like heavily slopped that we uh stole   like a billion dollars of reserves from Russia.  

It's not that black and white, but I don't disagree with you.   Yeah, it's like, I mean, just like seizing one nation's assets and then talking about handing them over to Ukraine.   I feel like the era of like, of course, we're going to try to maintain the narrative that America is the bastion of freedom.   And like you want to have freedom of currency, should be backing our currency.   But like, we're moving out of that era, like Bitcoin exists now.   And so they're going to have to   Like, sure, the dollar is the cleanest shirt in the room of filthy shirts.   But, like, for anybody who's not paying attention, the fact that you can just leave the room.  

And so, yeah, I agree.   way to go.   look, I that in five to 10 years, no one's going to want US Treasuries.   I think that this micro strategy complex of Bitcoin-based fixed income is going to be like the dominant force in the fixed income market.   mean, who's going to want a 2 % yield when you can get a five, whatever, five or six or 10 right now is like what they're offering.   And it's eventually...   That's the thing.   so this is a big, BlackRock and MicroStrategy are probably doing the most work to defund the Fiat-Panzi, which gets re-upped every time there's some scare and people fly out of   equities and buy bonds.  

That's changing.   Is the Fed's goal with the bond market, so they're going to attempt, it seems like they're going to attempt to, the fact that nobody wants bonds anymore, it's like, all right, well,   we're gonna force anybody who wants to issue a stable coin, they have to buy bonds now.   It's like, is that enough of a buyer to replace the world?   For now.   For now it is.   We have a long way to go before the dollar starts to ah even show any weakness.   We haven't even rugged Social Security yet.   We haven't rugged Medicare yet.   We haven't rugged really.  

We haven't rugged ourselves.   What does rugging s- like, like stop paying social security or like just- what do you mean by rugging s- just end it?   So yeah, like I don't- you don't-   a list of things that have to be done.   There's no way around it.   If the dollar wants to exist in 50 years, right?   It's just inevitable.   Those things do have to happen.   What's that?   Won't they just pay them like print the money to pay those liabilities though?   Why would they rug it when they could just debase it?   printing the money to pay the liabilities will turn us into Weimar Germany.   Weimar, and that's what took down Weimar was the reparations from World War I.  

know, if they didn't, if they basically gave the middle finger to France somehow and said, not, we're just, you know, we're going to do everything with that, probably wouldn't have   hyperinflated.   The entitlements have to go.   at some point we can't continue to hold those liabilities.   we've basically $200 trillion of liabilities ah associated with things like that.   But those are things, nobody talks about it because those are debts to ourselves.   We can walk away from it.   We're going to have to walk away from it.   And maybe it doesn't look like, uh fuck you, we rugged you.  

It looks like, we're going to raise the retirement age again to like uh 140.   We're just going keep raising the retirement age so that you can't get it.   there's no, know, social security and Medicare are gone, they have to go and we have, so my point is the fact that we haven't done that yet tells us, tells me there's a lot more   runway than this is going to take a lot longer than, you know, with those two low hanging fruit moves are still in the, are still in the quiver.   I will default to you.   Like you obviously know a lot more about this than I do.   It's just my gut feeling is like the it goes back to that humans don't understand exponentials and like when the suddenly part happens, it's gonna be quick and Like what   what does an empire do in that?  

these are levers you can pull to delay.   Don't ever underestimate their ability to delay the suddenly moment.   Don't ever do it.   And it's like what I said to Larry on stage, right?   Because when he tried to say, well, the math is the math, I was like, well, these guys are pretty good at defining the math.   It is shocking how many ways they keep finding to kick the can down the road.   This is well, look the one thing they're competent at is that and don't ever underestimate them on this.   The fact that we're trapped in this four-year election cycle of politics, who would have the stomach, what politician could have the stomach to destroy the Social Security or   destroy Medicare?  

one, unfortunately, this would be a great way to close the podcast, but it's nobody care of it.   He's born in Canada.   They can fake a passport like they can fake a birth certificate.   We need somebody of his backbone.   need somebody with us.   We need somebody who's like autistic.   Right.   I thought George W.   Bush was going to do it.   I have to tell you, like I actually was that stupid and believe, but I was like, oh, he looks like the kind of guy who might maybe he maybe they're throwing them in there.   Like they keep throwing in these people who are painted as crazy and kind of stupid.   And maybe it's to trick us into thinking, okay, this is the guy that's going to do it, clearly, right?  

A guy that doesn't care about his legacy or anything like that, right?   But nope.   we have presidents who can't be re-elected, it definitely opens doors of like, what are they gonna do on their way out?   like give Dr.   Fauci a full pardon that goes back decades.   Dude, the that they are removing the auto pen is invalid and this is interesting.   But once again, nothing ever happens.   Trump's pivoting on Epstein is like, I have...   plebs lot for fucking, this is just plebs lot for people like us.   You know?   uh   I think we got it.   Stop.