Motivate the Math

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Fundamentals.  @Fundamentals21m
Book: https://zeuspay.com/btc-for-institutions
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AverageGary
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In this episode, we dive into the intriguing world of quantum computing and its potential impact on Bitcoin, specifically focusing on the vulnerabilities associated with Taproot and Schnorr signatures. We explore the concept of quantum FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) and discuss whether the threat of quantum computing is overblown or a legitimate concern. Our conversation touches on the mathematical underpinnings of cryptography, the discrete log problem, and the potential for quantum computers to break current cryptographic schemes. We also discuss the implications of exposed public keys in Taproot and the potential risks they pose in a future where quantum computing becomes a reality.

Additionally, we delve into the broader implications of energy consumption and AI's role in the future of computing. We explore the Kardashev scale and the potential for Bitcoin mining and AI to drive humanity towards harnessing greater energy resources. The discussion also touches on the philosophical aspects of technological advancement, the potential for cooperation over conflict, and the role of cryptography in securing digital assets. Throughout the episode, we emphasize the importance of understanding and preparing for future technological shifts while maintaining a healthy skepticism towards sensationalized threats.

[00:00:02] Unknown:

Stop.  

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Pointed  

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it. I have remote viewing capabilities.  

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You have, that you have a special the special eye.  

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Special. But it's average. Like, it's an average remote viewing. So it's not insist on being average. You insist on everything being average. It's not average. Yeah. But it's like you gotta bring up the average. Right? Like, if I'm the average Bitcoiner,   like, everybody else should be average too.  

[00:00:49] Unknown:

But you're not the average Bitcoiner.  

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No. But are Bitcoiners average at all?   Mostly. Most of them are. Most of them you think most Bitcoiners are average? Interesting.  

[00:01:02] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well,   statistically,   most are average.  

[00:01:09] Unknown:

No. Yep. That's a okay. Got it.   That's why I love the joke. Somebody, I I think it was some comedian probably said it, but,   it's like, think about I think it was Dan Carlin or something. It's like, think about your average person. Dan Carlin or is this Canadian Bitcoin conference?  

[00:01:25] Unknown:

Sorry. The Canadian Bitcoin conference? The Canadian Bitcoin conference or George Carlin?   George Carlin. Is that the comedian? George Carlin's the comedian. Dan is the guy that books the Canadian Bitcoin conference that, I don't know. I'm not thinking about that. Definitely thinking about it. Anyway, half the people are stupider than your average person.   Yeah. That was the joke. He was like, just, you know, imagine   how stupid the average person is and think about how half the people are even dumber than that. Yep. Yep. I mean, I try and honestly I think you got you know from the tenor I give on this podcast,   I try not to think of human beings as, like, shit   in general. I I Yeah. I like, I'm willfully unimpressed   by people, and, like, the whole reason I do this podcast is so you're not either. Like, you don't be impressed by somebody because they can throw math terms around. They're probably   average.  

Right?  

[00:02:17] Unknown:

That's the whole thing. You're everybody's average at, like, a ton of different things. Right? Like, nobody's a great driver. Everybody's an average driver. That's not true.  

[00:02:25] Unknown:

That's just not true. There are there are Most people are average drivers. Well, that's most people are. Yes. That's right.   I  

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see. It works out. Right? It works out.  

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Most people are average at everything.   But you have accept there are people who are very good driver.  

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That's that's true.  

[00:02:44] Unknown:

Richard Petty, I think, is one. My wife's a very good driver. Is she? Believe it or not. Yeah. And she comes from a line of, like, cab drivers.   And they just you know? They're they're they're just good.  

[00:02:57] Unknown:

I pride myself in in my time driving Uber for a few months.   When I was enlisted and poor in the Navy, I had to drive an Uber to pay for my new car.   I had five star rating as an Uber driver for the six month period that I was. Just means you weren't annoying.   Basically.   Didn't slam on the brakes or, you know, make hard turns through the force.  

[00:03:20] Unknown:

You you didn't, like you probably didn't have a podcast that you were shoving down people's throats  

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or business. Have you been in an Uber where somebody's playing playing a podcast?  

[00:03:31] Unknown:

Yeah.   Or yeah. It's usually their own. It's like, oh, you gotta please like and subscribe it or, you know, let me tell you about my business, especially when they find out yeah.   Capture an audience. Like, my usual Uber use is, like,   it used to be, like, from a meetup or   I was in Vegas, the Bitcoin conference   Mhmm. Or you know? And so it's usually like, oh, what are you doing? And it's like, oh, I'm at this event. And they're like, oh, let me tell you about my business.   You know? And it's like,   you know, they're annoying. You still give them five stars because they got you there. It's like the Do you? Weird   I think you're supposed to.  



[00:04:11] Unknown:

It's just Do you feel obliged to give out five stars? Do you you tip to while you're standing up ordering coffee?  

[00:04:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I do. Yeah. I tip to try to just like, I don't if somebody, like, just goes to a urn and fills up my cup, I'm not tipping them. So, like, I don't tip at Starbucks,   but, like, if somebody pulls a shot of espresso, I'm definitely leaving a tip because that I feel like art and labor. That's an art. It's a labor's art. And we can I don't wanna mix the Sound Coffee podcast with this podcast? But Yeah. We don't have to. I'll I'll take it back to more generally. If you're not sitting down being served, I'm not giving you a tip. You're just doing your job. Like, if I have to stand up, you're not waiting on me. I'm like standing in line. Agree. But, like, some I mean, there's an art to pulling a shot of espresso that someone you know, you you want them to care about it. You want them to care enough that if it's a bad shot, they throw it out.   And,   you know How do they know it's a bad shot if they don't take it? You can know because you know. You know how to   know. No. You do. Okay. Same way,   yeah, same way you know a lot of things.  



[00:05:13] Unknown:

Okay. And I I mean, I believe you. I just it's just not Yeah. Ever crossed my neurons to consider what a bad or a good shot of espresso is. But I can trying to convince you to tip. You know? I I don't care about that.  

[00:05:26] Unknown:

You're a grown ass man. You do what you want with your money.   Thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for your permission. You're probably an average tipper, though, so I'll give you that.  

[00:05:36] Unknown:

Percent.   That's the average.   But that's not what we're talking about today. Right? No. No.  

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Not at all. That was that was that was what you call preshow banter.  

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Preshow banter.  

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What's the what's the meat and potatoes of the show? Is that The meat and potatoes, I believe, today is we want to talk   about   quantum FUD.  

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Quantum FUD. And, like uncertainty,  

[00:06:04] Unknown:

doubt, or freedom. Uncertainty and doubt, like centralization.   You know, we get into this,   math business,   and I, you know, like, I have an eye out for, like, people trying to exploit our   lack our collective lack of ability. Like, the average person   is, like, super scared and impressed by somebody who can   fluently use a math term,   right,   when they shouldn't be. The average person who's even had you know, average person in Bitcoin has above probably   you know? Well, like, we just like to say they're bifurcated into sub 80 IQ and 160 IQs. But either way   either either way, both are of pretty superior intelligence   and yet   very,   strangely intimidated   by,   you know,   what you will discover to be pretty ordinary and pedestrian   skill after you learn the math concept. Right? Like, you know you know what?  

So,   I believe okay. So, like, I believe that   this quantum stuff,   it I think it, it deserves   some conversation.  

[00:07:17] Unknown:

It's fair. Okay. Well, I mean, they had an entire event about it, I think, recently at Presidio Bitcoin in San Francisco.  

[00:07:25] Unknown:

Oh, I got some things to I got some I I I was   Woah. I I was tipped off to some of the materials they created, and that's part of why   that was after you and I talked about,   doing this episode on this subject. Really? Okay.   Yeah. And I the reason I think it's nuanced   is because there really is a thing.   K? It's it does it is going to exist,   but the the, like, the threat will be overblown so much that it could be a self fulfilling prophecy that the threat alone causes us to lose our collective minds   and brings brings the FUD to reality.   However,   the threat is not zero, and so it would be a mistake   probably   to   put yourself in that camp.  



[00:08:15] Unknown:

Dismiss it. Completely  

[00:08:17] Unknown:

yes. It would be a mistake to completely dismiss it   completely dismiss it. It would but, you know, I think that if you play it out,   most people who completely dismiss it will be fine because   there'll be there'll be people who don't dismiss it that just make sure that they're okay. Okay. Right? Yeah. So, like, I think, yeah, depending on who you are, you probably can dismiss it. But if you Sure. If you're, like,   want to be,   if you're a builder, you probably can't totally dismiss it.  

[00:08:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Especially as everyone's screaming for you to put quantum signatures into your wallet.  

[00:08:57] Unknown:

Well, so it's weird because so so this is how this whole thing started. I wanna say,   like, the impetus for this conversation,   I was at a meetup   that was, being run by a great dude, this guy,   Joe Mayo.   He his he's turned the Lancaster meetup into, like, Socratic seminar. He's great. Nice. He and he works for Unchained, does a great job. Totally lucky to have him doing that.   And   he made a so, like, he made a comment that tripped a wire of mine.   Right? And then I asked him about it. He didn't really know the answer, and then he looked into it. Now we're having a big discussion about it.   And shoot shout out, Joe, for, like, following up and actually   actually doing that, you know, because he could have easily just blew me off and dismissed my questions.  

So   he was he said something at, it was something about Schnorr.   And, you know, we did an episode about Schnorr,   and we were really excited about it. We were thought it was cool,   but we probably both think   Schnorr is like the future of signatures.   Right? And it solves solves a lot of problems,   privacy problems.   You know? And we got into how the signature itself was   in the group, and that's why it was right? That's what it's closed under. Whereas in e c d s a e d e c d s a, it wasn't, and that's part of   that was part of the power of it. And that was after, like, laboring through, like, six episodes of group theory. Right? Yeah. And we checked out to normal, like, oh, yeah. This is the answer now is easy. Well, it's easy   easy to talk about if we   went through all that laborious group theory.  

So we're excited about Schnorr. There's also this urban legend that Satoshi wanted to use Schnorr, but it was under Patton at the time.  

[00:10:51] Unknown:

Yep. I've heard that. Right. Which  

[00:10:54] Unknown:

feels reasonable.   Seems like   not  

[00:11:01] Unknown:

who would just, like Trying to make an honest Who would just do that? You would wanna avoid patent litigation.   Yeah. So act Sounds reasonable enough. This just brought up a tangent.  

[00:11:11] Unknown:

I was just, I just, worked out with my trainer,   and,   the moon landing came up. And I was like, dude, I'm,   you know, I'm kind of a moon landing guy. I know I'm gonna alienate a lot of people, but feel like it probably I think it's irrelevant to my day to day life. So it's like I I don't wanna derail the conversation, but I'd only say that to say he asked me if I, had heard this theory, and I never did, but it was called the stone to ape theory. Have you heard this stone to ape theory? Is that the one where the monkeys ate the mushrooms? Yeah. And and, like, we evolved. And I was like, yeah, dude. I I basically said that sounds as reasonable to me as the moon landing, like, for me. Like, I'm like and then I was like, who the fuck would dispute that? Who's, like, gonna, like, be like,   dude,   that's such bullshit.  

Like, on what grounds would someone just it's more of, like, you know, it's like a premise. It's not something that is prove that can be proven or disproven.   Right? And this is like some I I didn't bring these up as examples. Like, some of these things you just have to, like, put in your own mind. There's no there's no right answer. It's just the wrong answer is probably to say,   fuck that. It's definitely wrong, but not have a good not, you know, not really have Yeah. Even the energy you try to put into,   debunking it is  

[00:12:20] Unknown:

It's just a little flat earthy to me. Right? Exactly. That was that's exactly what I was gonna say. It's like the people that woke up from this COVID scam   and realized that most of the things and and Bitcoiners in general too. Bitcoiners really that realizing that your money is broken and wake up. But then they go, like, way far to the other side. They're like, everything is a lie that's ever been told to me.   And you have to really boil it down to what actually   moves the needle or has an impact into my life. And the moon landing is, like, one that I will never debate   for or against because I don't give a fuck. Yeah. Exactly. I well, yeah. I mean,  

[00:12:54] Unknown:

I'm not invested in it. I Right. Would just say it I believe it probably I I also happen to believe that they probably had a set   and had a way to fake   it. If it wasn't like, if it wasn't successful, I think they were ready to do that. Alright. Let's get back to the quantum data. Anyway   so, I mean, you know, that's reasonable to me too. But so,   this thing so Schnorr in terms of, like, in my world and, you know, you and I talked about it, it was like, to me, Schnorr was everybody thought that Schnorr was, like, on its way to on its way in. It just didn't have a lot of traction in terms of develop you know, really development resources.   But I always thought I'd always had this   or held this notion that people agree that we wanted Shnor. Right?  

And then and then, when Joe was giving his,   Joe made some comment about Schnorr being,   being quantum vulnerable or not quantum resistant.  

[00:13:53] Unknown:

Okay. Yep.  

[00:13:54] Unknown:

So I was like, oh, that's I never heard that. That's interesting. Was it Schnorr or this Taproot Well, it's all no. But let's see. Okay. Let's this is this is like   you know, at the time, at the moment of the conversation, didn't   no didn't really know. So, like, what Joe said was like, look. I don't actually really know,   but I've heard my bosses. I heard people at Unchained   basically say over my dead body, will we put Schnorr in?   And this is and that's the reason. And so I asked him to follow-up on it, and he did. K? And then it turned out after following up, it's not Schnorr per se. It's Taproot. Okay. Perfect. And it's the fact that the public you know, the fact that the public keys are exposed,   you know, that they're exposed  

[00:14:37] Unknown:

now. And so Well, let let's let's clarify   what that means. Right? Because this is this is what I when you mentioned this to me on the hike, I'm like, okay. Hold on. Now I have to go back to Taproot because I I didn't have the mental model in my head of, like, the way Taproot script   is used.  

[00:14:56] Unknown:

And when I say the script Yeah. There's like And maybe just before we even now before we even now go into this. Right?   Let's just rewind for a second. And what are we even talking about in general? You know, we've been talking for I think this is episode 20, so let's shout ourselves out for that. No. 21, we need a shout out.   We'll do that one too. But, like, 20 is pretty good deal. 20 is a big deal. 21.   Is this '21 or do so did I miss the shout out for 20? I have no idea.  

[00:15:24] Unknown:

This is 21? We're picking arbitrary numbers to celebrate, though. So supposed to know these things. I think you've had this discussion with business cat as well.  

[00:15:32] Unknown:

We've been talking for many, many episodes   about cryptography   and how cryptography   is   a bit of, like, in a like, if you think about it like digital physics,   meaning it takes a certain amount of energy to open a door.   And if you don't come if you don't provide that energy, you're not opening the fucking door. Right?   Okay. Yeah. I can get down with that. And that's how, like, if you open the Neil Cobblets book that I went through, you open any cryptography book,   the first probably the first section of that book is gonna be   o notate big it's gonna be big o notation, which is like they're just gonna teach you. This is like the order   of magnitude of the work it takes to overcome brute to brute force overcome   a cryptographic scheme.  

Right. So to me,   any kind of cryptographic   threshold   that you would call vulnerable would be related   to the force   required to break the scheme.  

[00:16:35] Unknown:

Specifically, the discrete log problem.  

[00:16:38] Unknown:

Which that's the scheme. We're talking about. The the discrete log problem is one of the is one of the main underlying  

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Yes.  

[00:16:47] Unknown:

It's the one of the main underlying structures in the scheme.   Right? But   but,   ECDSA   and Schnorr both rely on the discrete log problem. Right? So this that's   one of the reasons why I said, well, maybe you can like, why would Schnorr be quantum   vulnerable? Right? Because what we're talking about is when I cons when I think of   so   rewind again, the risk of anything. Okay? When I think of the risk of anything, there's two properties of the risk of anything, which is frequency and severity.   Right?  

[00:17:23] Unknown:

Okay. Yep. So  

[00:17:25] Unknown:

a, is there   you know, in cryptography,   frequency is one.   K. Right? Yeah. Exactly. That happens once in the severity. Create the loss event to right? So to create the negative the failure event, it's one. Right?   And then it's a and then once that one happens   so right. So once that binary event happens,   it's a question now of severity.   Right?   And so that I think that's an important framing for,   this issue of Taproot because it's not   a it's not a it's not like a matter of whether Quantum is going to eventually overcome   SHA two fifty six or ECDSA.  

It's a matter of once it does,   how bad how bad is the damage.   That's the context of this conversation. Right? So once it   assuming it does,   it's the you know, what is what's like, what is the,   stack   of vulnerability look like? What's the lowest hanging fruit?   And so the issue is that,   Taproot   is the lowest hanging fruit. And supposedly, there's, like, 6,000,000 keys   6,000,000 Bitcoin exposed   to this issue.  

[00:18:39] Unknown:

Well and I think we need to clarify the, quote, unquote, issue   and and understand. You can you can understand it originally   with the pay to pub key script types, which was you put a raw raw dog your pub key right into the script, and it was   viewable on chain. Right? And these are, like, stenosis era keys,   before we started a hashing   as part of the the commitment. So you I think you can separate into sort of, like, two buckets. So there's pub key based   scripts, and then there's,   hash based or commitment based. Right? When you when you hash something, it's often referred to as a commitment because change anything on the input, the output of the hash changes. So you're committing to this, especially when you couple it with, like, digital signatures and everything. And so, like, commitment based address types,   have a hash function involved, meaning the publicly viewable data before the spending occurs.  

So when you go to spend something from a commitment based address type, which is your pay to witness pub key,   pay to script hash, etcetera,   you're you're exposing this pub keys or the spending script   when you go to move it. Right? So as it's sitting in the mempool,   if in the in the existence of a quantum thing or a cryptographically   relevant quantum computer Yeah. Then that's it's like a small window of time that they're vulnerable.   The issue with paid a pub key where it's a raw pub key out there is that it you could you could brute force that pub key using this thing called Shor's algorithm, which I don't know what that algorithm is, but that's like the most commonly referenced   quantum algorithm for, like, breaking   the discrete log and going basically the other way. Right? So you can go very easily from a private key to a public key multiplying by the generator point, which we I I believe we've covered in the past. But then the opposite is untrue. You cannot go from a public key because that will require you to divide   by the generator point. And, like, the division thing is, like, solving for that division becomes this very, very computationally dense root forcible thing.  

And so the pay to pub key one, because the raw pub keys are exposed,   I mean, you could, in theory, take one of those and just start guessing.   You can't invert the hash function. That's the whole point unless you can. Well, no. We're talking about raw. We're not talking about commitment addresses. Yeah. Okay. Commitment addresses are protected by a hash function, which are more secure than, like Yeah. Yeah. Just raw pub keys or the the signatures thereof necessarily.   But the the raw pub keys are things that are quote unquote more susceptible  

[00:21:07] Unknown:

Vulnerable. More vulnerable in a in a sense. Just for the right the way I think Which by which by the way, right, the the the ETFs, right, all of BlackRock's ETFs that are held at Coinbase   were in paid pub key. No. Paid to pub key. Paid to pub key hash.   They were original paid to pub key hash addresses.   Okay. So hash, that's fine. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If it's a hash if it's a hash Which means I might have to take back my making my kinda total shitting on them for that.  

[00:21:36] Unknown:

Well, no. We can continue shit on the ETFs. I'm fine with that. The, but the the vulnerable part is it's an exposed pub key. Right? So it's like a publicly viewable pub key. So in the event that there is, you know, a quantum relevant computer, then they could reverse that seemingly easier because if you know the starting point to reverse from and you have the ability to reverse it, then then you get do that. It's kinda like it's kinda like,  

[00:21:57] Unknown:

if you you're in a multisig,   and Yes. An attacker knows exactly the exact quorum of multisig.  

[00:22:05] Unknown:

Yes. Versus not Multisigs are also vulnerable because   that goes on chain in the receiving   script.  

[00:22:12] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like a bare script. But, like, you know, so if somebody finds a key somebody finds a steel plate somewhere in a in a junkyard. Right? Mhmm.   And doesn't know it's part of a multisig.   They may, you know, they may try a couple of times to move keys before failing, but  

[00:22:32] Unknown:

if they know it's like Now you would know it's a multisig.   So so you like, the way bare multisig. We're not talking about, like, musig or anything. Like, a bare multisig on chain, you can view  

[00:22:44] Unknown:

that No. I get it. I keep saying, but if you if you just found a a steel plate in a junk   yard   Yep. You wouldn't necessarily   would you be able to figure out would you be able to find the   multisig quorum?   No. You might be able to find that it's part of a multisig. Like, you'd have to go through and direct but it But if you don't know, like, you might try it. It's hard. And you don't, like, you don't act you know, you you it won't work. Like, you won't be able to move the keys, but they don't tell you Absolutely. They won't tell network isn't gonna tell you, well, the reason this isn't working is because this is part of a   five of, you know,   five of nine, whatever, multisig.  

Okay. You don't know that. Right? You would you would not know that's part of multisig. You're probably gonna give up fairly soon   after not being able to move any keys   with that steal. Like, that's my point. Like, if you don't know but if you do know, even if you know it's   10 of 19, if you know, right, right, you could start trying to track down the motherfuckers   who threw the steel plate away. Right? You just that you might actually if you actually know the quorum,   you know the limits.   Yeah. Right? So the point is, right, it's like Did you find a steel plate? Is that what you're trying to tell me? You wanna track down the multisig owner? Yeah. I got a pile of steel plates. I got I got the junk out of Just scraps the   time. But I think about this shit all the time. Right? I mean, I think anyone who holds their own keys has to think about  

[00:24:15] Unknown:

this stuff. Well well, multi bare multisig is is interesting because you're exposing the pub keys. You know the quorum.   But the the tap root why tap root is vulnerable. Right? Let's, like, circle back to what we're And let's let's quote let's put vulnerable in quotes because Yes.  

[00:24:31] Unknown:

One of my big problems with this framing of vulnerability is it actually does also assume that   quantum is a legitimate   threat. It's a legitimate near term threat.  

[00:24:42] Unknown:

And it's Near term being a keyword there. Yeah. That's right. I don't I don't think it's a near term. Like, the numbers that they're factorizing   factoring?   Factoring. Yes. The numbers they're factoring are not large enough to matter yet.  

[00:24:57] Unknown:

That's the that's the thing. We had we had factored larger numbers.   We had factored larger numbers on the show. Yes. Absolutely.  

[00:25:06] Unknown:

Yep.  

[00:25:08] Unknown:

That's true. Yeah. That's true. But and it's but like I said, if you wanna totally dismiss it, I think that's   I don't think it's a good idea to totally dismiss it. I think some of this goes into the issues that I don't wanna get into, but, like, the issues that have   been swirling around,   Bitcoin core   communication   and the way Sure. The way they're perceived, we'll just say. Because I think in this area of quantum,   you may have a group of people   who perceive who doesn't perceive Bitcoin Core as cooperative   and may   just try to fud the hell out of everybody until it's kinda like a, you know, government employee. We might get a government quantum fork of Bitcoin. Like I that's what yeah. I'd be very explicit about that. Like, I I see a hilarious   industry of consultants,   like,   you know, quantum resistant   I've met them at the BP. Quantum resistant. You know, like, we're gonna get all these these.  

But what would be nice in an ideal world would be for, like, Bitcoin Core to say, here's the playbook, and that's it. Here's a playbook and a story. Right? That would be nice,   I think, in an ideal world.  

[00:26:18] Unknown:

I don't know.   Maybe. I mean, that's what we've defaulted to in the past, right,  

[00:26:24] Unknown:

is following along with Bitcoin Core in the playbook that they outlined. It would be nice for them to have a playbook and for us to see it.  

[00:26:31] Unknown:

Well, and that's where I think, you know, it being not a near term threat, but a future threat. Because the amount of energy we're gonna be able to harness with this whole AI and Bitcoin mining,   like, convergence,   is gonna be ridiculous. And that's where I think the potential for,   like, having enough compute to do something about it   versus having, like, the algorithm are two very separate things. Right? Because you can either brute force something because you just have enough energy and compute   to run the numbers an absurd amount of times, or you have some specialized,   algorithm that shortcuts it. Right? Very similar to Yes. Fermat's little theorem and all these other things that they can do in my hand.  



[00:27:11] Unknown:

Yes. You have cryptanalysis   that reduces   the threshold. Reduces the threshold   of what the brute force needs to be to open the door.  

[00:27:21] Unknown:

Yeah. Totally. Right? So so I mean, right, you do have people working on it. So it's like, okay.   Like, if anything's gonna be ready, it's gonna be Bitcoin. Right? Like, I don't know. There's probably some other industry that's dependent on it, but   if anything is going to be ready for a potential future, it's Bitcoin. I would agree in theory. In a lifetime though.  

[00:27:43] Unknown:

I would agree in theory. I and but it would be, again, like a a simple playbook to say,   these are the things that these are the, areas.   These are the updates that need to happen to say to to upgrade to five twelve   or to upgrade to ten twenty four. I get what you're saying. Because that's Yeah. That's the answer. Right? And so it's just like a little Like, by that, you mean shot five twelve shot 10 Yes.  

[00:28:07] Unknown:

Because that's the That's a completely separate thing, though. Right? The signatures are the first thing that are are gonna be broken, not shot two fifty six.  

[00:28:16] Unknown:

So it's like upgrading the hashing algorithm is different than So you have but that's the so that's, like, the first tier   to me of the playbook.   Then the question is, what do you do with the 6,000,000 coins that have this   property?   Do we just you know, and I know people are talking about it now. Like, what do we do? Do we burn? Do we ask people to spend them and burn them and you know? Like, there is there   like, that is happening right now.   That comes to see. Correct?   Yes. But, like, it would be nice to see   something some type of organized   fact   just complete fact based,   assessment of this.  

Right?  

[00:28:59] Unknown:

Well, I think that's what people are publishing.  

[00:29:01] Unknown:

Well, the yeah. But the people that are publishing Trying to publish it. People that seem to have agendas and wanna launch   quantum resistant consulting businesses. And,   you know, like, I just it feels very communist.   You know? Interesting.   Yeah. Like, it's you know, it's like everyone has to be it feels like climate change in a certain way. Right? Like, everyone has to be worried about this.   You know? Now the reality is we the world's getting warmer.   That's true, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be fucking worried about it.   Right? It's like   it's like my shits are getting harder. It doesn't like, what you know?  

I don't need to worry about it. It's just happening.  

[00:29:40] Unknown:

And the few the some of the people that I I trust their opinions on the matter that went to this, like, quantum thing, Basically, the, you know,   the the biggest fear of quantum is quantum itself or something like that. It's like a It's the FUD itself. Like, the FUD is gonna be more of a threat than the thing itself. And I know that's a it's on that's almost a pedestrian take at this point. Well, it's the near it's the that near term keyword that we that I honed in on earlier when you mentioned it because it's like,   is it gonna happen? Like, yeah. I think we're going to Kardashev type one   level of energy.  

And, like, the implications   of that,   nobody I don't think anybody can really understand  

[00:30:17] Unknown:

because that Sorry. That's the second time today I've heard that word.   For a time? Yeah.  

[00:30:24] Unknown:

Do you know what it is?   No.   Oh, it's like, oh, okay. Alright.   Well, here we go. Side quest.   And one day, we we will address why Taproot is vulnerable before the end of the episode.   Yes. So the the Kardashev scale is this, like,  

[00:30:41] Unknown:

sort of made up thing. I'm I'm it's from I've heard of it. Like, many times. I just never dug in and asked what the fuck it is. And today, I've heard it twice. So, like, now it's like, okay. Alright.  

[00:30:51] Unknown:

So it was this measurement scale   of   a civilization's   capability to access   energy available.   So Kardashev   type one civilizations   are a civilization   able to access all energy available on its planet   and then store it for consumption.   And then type two is it can consume a star's energy, and then type three is, like, galactic level of energy. Right? But the the meme of, like, Kardashev type one is, like, we're not even close   to being able to fully realize   the Earth's energy's potential.  

[00:31:29] Unknown:

Totally. Not even close.   Not even fucking close. But Bitcoin I'm just trying to to call it it would be a misnomer to call it the Earth's potential because most of the potential, it probably it comes from outside the Earth.  

[00:31:42] Unknown:

Well, there's still the Earth's core that has a lot of Agree. Right? But, like, we don't understand   astrolily how much that contributes to power. Yeah. Wow. This is starting to get deep. But, yes, I yeah. Absolutely.   Because the Earth   is orbiting a larger body.  

[00:32:00] Unknown:

It's like how As far as we understand it. The laws of physics only explain why trees grow to, like, 33 feet. Like, Einstein's law?   Like, our   current understanding of physics only would only explain   a 33 foot tree.   Clear we're but we're not in, you know, far. Something. We're not we're not in a closed system.   Right? We are Right. We're in a universe   that's also doing shit to us. Right? So   it's   and yet and yet you're right. Like, we've we haven't even   come close to figuring out what the earth even is   Yeah. From a power perspective.  

[00:32:38] Unknown:

Totally.  

[00:32:39] Unknown:

Mostly because we're trying to keep two thirds of the earth from   from having what we have.  

[00:32:45] Unknown:

Which is energy abundance.  

[00:32:47] Unknown:

We we we're trying to keep it we're trying to keep, like, two thirds of the earth from getting that because we don't want them to build a nuke.  

[00:32:53] Unknown:

When I think yeah. That's that's a that's a good point. The interesting thing too is, like, I think the Bitcoin mining and the AI stuff would would drive this Kardashev scale. Yeah. So what we needed what we needed was an incentive to overcome the fear of somebody building a new. Oh, oh.   I think that was profound.   Possibly.   No. I mean, it's what we needed was a cooperative incentive. Well, what was that incentive? Because the incentive was not Bitcoin mining, I don't think.   Like, the the the recent swing in 3 Mile Island being reactivated by Microsoft was not  

[00:33:33] Unknown:

Shout out to 3 Mile Island. Like,   it's a little townspear and their Panopticon.  

[00:33:40] Unknown:

Yeah.   That's the unfortunate thing. Whereas I think the counter to that is Bitcoin mining where it's just radical   like, because the the AI thing, the the need for AI energy and all this other stuff is driving energy in a centralized fashion   because you need massive amount of energy in one point location   to do this training.   But on the flip side of that same coin is the Bitcoin mining, which balances it out. Like, where do you send that energy when you're not training a model? But then, also, where do you go to find new untapped sources of energy and bootstrap that infrastructure? You don't you don't do it with AI. You do it with Bitcoin mining. Yeah. I've said on broadcast like the AI is maybe the maybe AI created Bitcoin  

[00:34:25] Unknown:

and sent it back to the past. You should listen to a podcast called the path to Bitcoin.   The path to Bitcoin? Yeah. Interesting. And I'm gonna find the episode and maybe pin it in the show notes, but he basically   did this one episode that was, like, a science fit. This is this guy. No music. He's writing a book. And so Okay. He's now using, like, the app the podcast to read to essentially read his book. He's just testing out all his thoughts,   basically.   Yeah.   But he did an episode that was a bit very sci fi like   where he it was like,   he was the AI, and he was thanking humans for serving their purpose   for corralling all the energy for them to live and exist and that we won't be needing we won't be needing you anymore.  

And Yeah. It was a really, really good really good episode.   The path to Bitcoin, the super high signal, dude. And that's by the way, that is where I heard the card show scale today. I was listening to that podcast.   But I've said on rock paper Bitcoin before, I've suggested that   potentially, like, aliens can see the hash rate. Like, the way they saw  

[00:35:32] Unknown:

supposedly, when we split the atom Oh, just to gauge how retarded we are?  

[00:35:36] Unknown:

Yeah. Well yeah. They when they saw when we split the atom, they came they started coming. Right?  

[00:35:43] Unknown:

Maybe. Probably.  

[00:35:45] Unknown:

And so but now, like, we they see they may see Hashrate as a like so when they saw us split the atom, they're like, these fuckers are gonna kill each other.   Right?   These fuckers   forget this forget this fucking planet because they're going to murder each other, clearly. They've developed the technology to kill each other. We don't,   you know well, we either wait to take over to take it over or we just, you know, whatever. But now, potentially,   you know, a thousand x hash of hash rate   could Yeah. Be visible and imply   that maybe we're cooperating. I know it's like a Pollyannaish thing to think, but, like   right. It could've like, maybe they see that, okay. We're actually I mean, it does suggest where are we putting our energy into. Right? So, like, even AI is, like, even AI is an incentive to potentially overcome   the nuke problem   because we might just choose worldwide productivity   over  

[00:36:40] Unknown:

God. I hope so.  

[00:36:42] Unknown:

Right? And so even without cooperation,   it's just a better incentive. Like, the you know, it's a better incentive to that we are more productive. Right? Or even just that our computers are more productive. Right?  

[00:36:53] Unknown:

Like, that's a seems like a good place to find out. Computers only do what we tell them to. They are they are slaves to the instructions we give them and the way that we build them until they can build themselves.  

[00:37:04] Unknown:

Yeah.   Right? But it's like, it still makes sense that we would put our energy into that   productivity.  

[00:37:12] Unknown:

Absolutely.  

[00:37:13] Unknown:

Right. It would make like, just like it makes sense that we put our energy into the Bitcoin network into my into money Bitcoin.   Right? Right.  

[00:37:22] Unknown:

But we're putting our energy into this thing that has base assumptions on   the relationship of these   cryptographic   primitives. Right? Like this like, that's the that's the interesting thing is, like, all this energy. And even AI is based on math.  

[00:37:39] Unknown:

Right? Like, there's mathematical I don't know what they do. Basically, based on linear algebra. You know? Sure. Yeah. Nothing more really nothing more.  

[00:37:47] Unknown:

So it it it seems like there's two Statistics.   Two,   like,   mathematical underpinnings   driving the energy   direction   of   our world as we see it today?  

[00:38:00] Unknown:

Well, one is well, the you know, in AI, it's, like I said, it's it's linear algebra and, like, probability,   basically.   Right. But in   in the Bitcoin network, it's not really math. Right? That's another misnomer. Right? It's shot two fifty six. So it's an it it is   Yeah. But it be but it it's based on people   it's based on people   flipping the switch with their fingers. Right? It's based on people deciding   to deploy  

[00:38:28] Unknown:

that hash rate. Right? It's that's what it's How is that different from the AI being decided to be used?  

[00:38:35] Unknown:

Because you can   it it can probably manifest itself.   Yeah. You know? In in Bitcoin, it it really requires every it's it's based on every single person who applies hash.   Right?   Yeah. That's what raises the threshold for a brute force attack. Right? And it's been happening since 02/2009.   Right?   We've been raising the threshold by trillions and trillion factors of trillions, right, of this Bruce Right. Of of this brute force attack.   Whereas   so, like, shot two fifth sorry. Shot two fifty six is basically the standard   that it's the mathematical   standard, and then it's and then it's sort of multiplied by everybody who decides to use it.  

Right?   And so you have these two forces. One is self evident,   shot two fifty six, and then you have this thing where everyone's you you have a lot of people   committing this   committing spending energy you know, sort of spending energy   committing this algorithm.  

[00:39:35] Unknown:

Right? Committing And the algorithm itself is a commitment.  

[00:39:38] Unknown:

Yes. And but they both multiply by each other to cause the threshold for brute force tech.  

[00:39:44] Unknown:

Yeah. Okay.  

[00:39:45] Unknown:

And   it's   easy   to swap out two fifty six for five twelve. Much easier than swapping, you know, than trying to multi find more people to commit.   Right?   Just  

[00:39:59] Unknown:

so, like, they Well, yeah. I mean, this is what the line of hardware for that, though, is is not that that's not, like, a simple process.  

[00:40:06] Unknown:

Agree. And then also, look, if two fifty six can be so it's if two fifty six can be,   can be brute forced, right, then it doesn't matter how many people are, at that point, it doesn't matter how many people are using it. Participate. Yeah. That's true. Right. It it it no longer matters. So, like but once you once   you find   the amount that goes back above the threshold, it it now you have the the people multiplier again. I guess I just I'm I'm I'm having trouble mentally  

[00:40:36] Unknown:

comparing that to the AI because AI is like this weird amalgamation of   human language input to these linear There's no threshold, though. Like, that it's not Yeah. There's nothing. That's what I'm saying. Well, the threshold is the energy consumption of how robust can you make the context window and the training model size and, like, having the the   compute cluster to hold the entirety  

[00:40:59] Unknown:

of the model itself. It's just demand. And you know what? Honestly,   the   limiting factor is gonna be what people are willing to pay upfront   for it.   Yeah. That's the reality. I finally got a taste of that last week when I used the Shakespeare app. Vibe code? Yes. When I was vibe coding, there's the Shakespeare app. And,  

[00:41:19] Unknown:

I bullied my web vibe coding, and I told you to treat it like an intern. And I just get screenshots of you berating this thing.  

[00:41:26] Unknown:

Yeah. You're never gonna work in this town again, motherfucker.   Not quite how bad you're treating an intern. The reality of my experience is I for $10, I was able to create a pretty cool website for all of my stuff, like my Does the website is it posted?  

[00:41:40] Unknown:

What's that? Is it posted?  

[00:41:42] Unknown:

No. Website? But my but,   it's like for my book, podcast,   blog, everything.   Yeah.   And so what happened was Derek   says, hey. I have a good I have a cool idea for this website.   See if you can,   see if it can pull your blog post from Abla, which I've used. I've used up you know, I've published a few blog posts. So   I asked it   to,   see if you can, where appropriate,   you know, pull my blog post from Abla. It broke the whole fucking website, and I've spent, like, $50   trying to fix it back. There's no version of it. NCP  

[00:42:17] Unknown:

server.   Yeah. You need a way for it to understand Noster.  

[00:42:21] Unknown:

I I look. I this is gonna be an issue for a lot of people. It's all all I'm saying is the money upfront is going to be it's it's it's going to be very limiting.  

[00:42:31] Unknown:

Well and this is why the pay per queue model,   which that's like a company.  

[00:42:36] Unknown:

It's awesome. I love that site. Paying upfront  

[00:42:39] Unknown:

is the way that you do it. And I've been I've been banging this drum in certain circles   of, like, hey. If we have compute, we're gonna sell.   If you have compute, you wanna one, you can just run your own compute and sell it on the Internet,   like, without anybody's permission. Sell it for your eCash, Lightning, Bitcoin, whatever.   That's huge   because you're operating in the black. You're saying, hey. Here's my cost. And if you can go above this cost, I will compute for you.   Massive.   Just absolutely sounding. We need to cover Taproot, though.  

[00:43:12] Unknown:

I know. Froze up.   You there? I'm here. I froze up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.   The Internet just, like, figured out you were making a very good point.  

[00:43:26] Unknown:

The the people listening over the Internet,   I I might have acquaintances to them. So it's fine. They know who I am.  

[00:43:33] Unknown:

So, I mean, we've gotten a little bit of field here. But   Far field, but yes. But I do think it all relates. I mean, you're right. It's all you know, you have to also   understand that   we're gonna be competing for compute resources with AI.   And so to me, that even tamps down the FUD even more.   Yeah. Again, you don't dismiss it because   it's just like a lot of things in Bitcoin aren't gonna happen for decades, and you're we still don't you know, you'd be stupid to dismiss them.   Right.   Well, you're the risk guy. I'm curious. So, like, if if this, if yeah. Quantum stuff is inevitable, but it might be for a lot of a lot of years.  

[00:44:16] Unknown:

What's that?  

[00:44:17] Unknown:

Yeah. You you're it's one of us is freezing up. We'll find out when we listen to the episode who it is, but, like,   it's okay.   I'm saying that you can't dismiss the spud even though it might not happen   for thirty years. Now I'm the one freezing. Alright.   Anyhow, we can get back to Taproot. Yeah. Taproot. Taproot. We're gonna close it out with Taproot.  

[00:44:39] Unknown:

Yep. Why is Taproot,   more susceptible   to a quantum threat   than other signature types or other address types? Not signature types, address types, to be very clear.   And that's because it it it has a pub key in in the script pub key. Like,   in the script   that you're putting on the chain,   there is a pub key.   And to spend   said script,   you only need to provide   a signature for that pub key. That's called a key path spend.   And ultimately,   in Taproot,   you can have multiple sort of scripts, and you can build them into this thing called the Merkle tree, which we may or may have talked about on this show before. I don't think we have. But think of it like, at the top, you have,   the ultimate Merkle root.  

This is, like, in a block. It's also the same thing. Like, there's a Merkle root to all the transactions.   But it's a it's a binary tree structure. Or I think you have it non binary, meaning having multiple leaves or whatever.   But in this tree structure,   you have this thing called the Merkle root, which is the ultimate hash outcome   of the entire underlying structure.   And so in Taproot,   when you   go to create a Taproot address,   you have an op one that you're pushing, you have op push 32 bytes, and then you give it this tweak to public key.   And tweak just means you're doing, like,   modular arithmetic on it,   but there's always a value. And this is tweaking is also, like, how you get hierarchical deterministic wallets,   but that value that you're tweaking it by so you have your private key and then your public key. We have discussed tweaking here. Right. Sure.  

And so the value that you're tweaking your public key by   is the Merkle root of the tap root of the TapScript stuff. So you have this Merkle tree structure, and the final outcome is this Merkle root, another 32 bytes.   And that is the thing that you're using to tweak your public key. So it it is a public key because, again, it's it's it's in this group because no matter what you add to it, you're gonna stay within the realms of being a valid public key. So you tweak your public key by the Merkle root of all these different scripts that are in your tap root,   structure there.  

And then when you go if you just wanna do a something called a key path spend, all you have to do is provide a signature   for the tweaked public key,   and you only need to use that same tweak. So that same Merkle root is used in the signature   when you do a key path spend. And that's, like, the smallest   on chain footprint that you can have for spending a tap root is this key path spend. And it's like the happy path. Right? Like, all the all the things you don't need to unroll this Merkle tree structure to go to some, like, unique custom script.   Conversely and and that's why it's quote unquote, you know,   more susceptible   to this quantum threat is because at the end of the day, it's just a pub key on the chain that if you have a quantum relevant crypt,   computer   or cryptographically relevant   quantum computer, you could just go from the pub key to derive the private key,  

[00:47:48] Unknown:

even though it's tweaked. So they're gonna get all the order. They're gonna get all the ordinals   and,   and the runes   and everything. That's basically what's used Taproot. Right? I mean.  

[00:48:01] Unknown:

No. I mean, there's lots of well, the the other thing with Taproot is you have the new signature type. Right? So it's not just the ordinals and the ruins and everything. Maybe it is. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. The JPEGs are the sacrificial lamb to be the canary in the coal mine for the top one. No one's gonna care about quantum  

[00:48:18] Unknown:

for a split second until Satoshi's keys move. That's likely to be more targeted,  

[00:48:23] Unknown:

if I had to guess.  

[00:48:26] Unknown:

Yes. And I mean and it's like that's when   that really is I mean, it's almost why it's almost why the keys are left there.  

[00:48:34] Unknown:

Well and the other thing about this is any compromise of a private key,   you can know and do nothing about it. Like, if if I found that that dumpster   seed phrase plate   Yes. I could I could go check it, and it's like, oh, shit. It's got a thousand Bitcoin on it. And I could just sit on it and wait.   Yes. I don't have to take any action.  

[00:48:56] Unknown:

Yes.   When I think about whether or not my own keys have been compromised, I think about that. It's that's I think about all the time.   Yeah. I'm like, just because I see just because I see   my keys now doesn't mean, like you know?   Yes. Yes. Doesn't mean somebody hasn't   sniffed on the descent or, you know,   one of the wallets I used in my past in my life hasn't doesn't have a backdoor.   You know?   That's why it's probably good to it is probably good to, like, mute your keys every once in a while and restart. Sure. Until you're in a geographically distributed multisig.   Yeah. That's what I mean for, like, all your, like,  

[00:49:37] Unknown:

raw dog single sig stuff. It's your raw dog single cig. Yeah. Yeah. It could be.   It could be. Yeah. You don't know you know, the evil housemaid is is a threat,  

[00:49:47] Unknown:

or just What I love about this game too, though, is that, like, it really   like,   it's a we're almost not ready to deal with most people, frankly, are never gonna be ready to deal with these uncertainties   about holding your own keys. And the fact is if you're not worried about it, like, a lot of the time Yeah.   You're probably not doing it right. Right?   And it's the worrying that's the feature. It's kinda right? It's  

[00:50:15] Unknown:

But the the the nice thing is, though, is all of the the,   adept   and tuned in people that are worried about it   are actively thinking about it all the time. It's like, how do I   avoid this problem?   How do I solve this problem?   How do I make this better?  

[00:50:34] Unknown:

Because it is a risk. The risk here is, again, the severity is total loss.  

[00:50:39] Unknown:

Well and this brings up the the beautiful   segue   into one of my favorite software proposals, checks c check template verify and check sync from SAC   because the they offer   CTV specifically offers a vault structure. So in the event that your key is compromised Is op vault that   No. Op vault is a separate,   soft fork proposal that entered into opcodes  

[00:51:05] Unknown:

That was a cool idea. Specifically  

[00:51:08] Unknown:

for doing this vaulting mechanism, but you can do a a you can do a vaulting structure with CTV, if I understand correctly.  

[00:51:15] Unknown:

This way, you can just hand some rent attacker   your keys and then just  

[00:51:20] Unknown:

Hope they don't sit around and wait for the escrow Yeah. Time out. Yeah.   Yeah. Or you're sitting there now with, you know, your rent attacker for five days while while the transaction clears, and they're able to pull all your fingernails out.  

[00:51:34] Unknown:

Yeah. I I was gonna say the whole scenario feels weak anyway.   What scenario? The scenario where you just, like, capitulate give this guy, you know, where you're like, oh, yeah. Here's my keys.  

[00:51:45] Unknown:

I mean, it is weak until somebody has a a, you know, a a branding iron to your family, and then you're like,   okay. What's worth more?   And that's   ideally a situation you never find yourself in. But Yeah. Life limit eyesight of, dearly beloved family is is a tough thing to huddle through.  

[00:52:04] Unknown:

The more likely though   attack is gonna be cryptographic.   Right?   It depends. Unless you live in France. Well, yeah. If you and or or a US jurisdiction   where there's very, like, strict on regulation.   Yep. Yeah. Totally. Like like New York.  

[00:52:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I think we've gone far field,  

[00:52:24] Unknown:

but we've covered the topic that we wanted to talk about. It's hard not to cut it's but it's, like, it's hard not to go here. Right? We're talking about protecting your keys.   And it, it is a holistic   exercise.   Right?   You  

[00:52:39] Unknown:

know, pretty That's the maddening thing. It's like there's so many   it it's like, would you rather guard a single door and make sure nobody goes in or out, or would you rather guard a hallway   of thousands of doors?  

[00:52:52] Unknown:

And that's what it feels like sometimes. But that's where so yeah. And again, it's so   again, it'd be having a grasp   believing you have a grasp of math, I think at least put you in a mental state to start breaking these things down into its components.  

[00:53:08] Unknown:

Right. Right? Because you have the ability to do that. You can reason about the problem. You have to be able to to identify a solution. You have to first be able to rationally reason about a problem, I think. So yeah. So so I think you've explained why it's Taproot that's at risk. Right?  

[00:53:23] Unknown:

Schnorr is just a part of Taproot. So you you can have   so for all the privacy benefits you get from Schnorr, sometime down the road in the long future,   you might be the first low hanging fruit to get clipped by quantum attack. As you're hanging out in your orbital  

[00:53:39] Unknown:

lounge?  

[00:53:40] Unknown:

You know, that's that's basically how it is. Right? That's that's   you know? And then It's a trade off. That's the trade off. The question is, can we put can we bring Shnor into hashed, you know, into hashed accounts? I mean,   you know, was maybe was Taproot premature because it's like, we put Taproot in seemingly unaware of this  

[00:54:00] Unknown:

seemingly unaware of this dynamic. Right? Yeah. There's something else too to do with the x only bit of Taproot keys   that I've heard people make reference to.   Basically, x o like, a Taproot   to save one byte,   and I don't I can't   attest to the definitive,   reason why. But, like, a normal compressed public key is 33 bytes, and that one byte at the beginning is, like, whether the y value is even or odd.   But for pay to tap root, public keys are only 32 bytes in length,   and they omit   that.   And so it's the x value only of   the point on the curve.  

There's no y value indicated. And there's, like, some implication of that, and I can't remember what it is, but I've seen some people convetch about it. So Yeah.  

[00:54:51] Unknown:

So,   hopefully, at least we've gotten across that it made it's you know, we've distinguished what the crypto you know, there's a cryptographic   attack, but then there's the   just more something that's just more structural to the signature scheme. Right? Then they're not the same. Well, the address scheme, not the signature scheme. The address scheme. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:55:11] Unknown:

True. And I don't think you have anything profound to say to, like, close this thing out. That's not yeah.  

[00:55:17] Unknown:

I don't I don't think so. I mean, we've got we we somehow talked about aliens. I I don't know how the hell that happened.   But,  

[00:55:24] Unknown:

maybe it's because I was listening to Matt Pines on my way to work this morning. Could've been it. I got nothing.   Happy Friday. Be peaceful, not harmless.   Study math, study Bitcoin, and most importantly, build a strong local community.  

[00:56:09] Unknown:

Where is my mind?   Where is my mind? Where is my mind?   Where   is   my mind?   Where is my mind?   Where is my mind? Where   is my   mind?   Where is my mind? Where   is my mind?