Motivate the Math

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Fundamentals.  @Fundamentals21m
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AverageGary
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In this episode, we delve into the complexities of showing up and the energy it requires, especially in the context of Bitcoin mining and decentralization. The conversation touches on the challenges of mining centralization, the concept of Fedi pools, and the lack of healthy dialogue in the Bitcoin community. We explore the social dynamics at play and the potential attacks on Bitcoin's integrity, emphasizing the importance of understanding the financial engineering behind mining and the role of social layers in Bitcoin's ecosystem.

We also discuss the intriguing concept of fungibility over time and how Bitcoin might be the solution to maintaining balance in the financial world. The episode highlights the significance of understanding the math and financial engineering involved in Bitcoin mining, the role of decentralized hash rates, and the potential of projects like Bitaxe. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the need for a long-term perspective and the importance of embracing volatility and doing hard things to ensure Bitcoin's future.

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Stop.  

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Oh, we're here. We're here. We are here. We are here. So it's the best thing we can say right now. Right?  

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When showing up is the hardest part. Right?  

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It's big, dude. It's big. Showing up is,   like, you know,   I don't know what percentage it is. There have been some studies.  

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It's well, most like, a lot of people don't show up. Right? Like, when they're like, people checked out floating through life,   the the quote, unquote   MPCs of the world, like, they they're not showing up too much.   For whatever reason, it maybe it's because their souls and dreams and hopes have been crushed by this Fiat monster.  

[00:01:03] Unknown:

There's not enough energy to produce the next block. That's just what happens.   Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The yeah. They're like, I'd rather he power a dryer or a Christmas tree. I'd rather just power something else. I'm not looking I'm not gonna power this. Yeah. This requires energy. Right? Showing up requires energy.   Sometimes difficulty adjustment is moving   against us. Usually, that happens due to progress.  

[00:01:29] Unknown:

Yeah. It I love that you're you're you're you're you're leading in with this given my my top of mind in, mining decentralization   and figuring out,   honestly, some of the math around   what makes   that doable.  

[00:01:44] Unknown:

So it's cool, though, because what's happening right now is you have now found yourself   so I don't know what I don't know what episode this is. 14 or something like that. And it's, it may as well be infinity. Right? I mean, it's like, it may as well be I don't know. Numbers are all made up anyway. You have not like, the the first fifteen episodes of this was   me expressing   my crisis of vericate my crisis   of trying to verify Bitcoin running into this cryptography issue. Yeah. And then it, like, sort of spilled out onto this podcast as, like, group theory and, like, some things like that. And then, like, more more just ideas about math.   Yeah. But it's like you have been brewing in a crisis.  

Yeah.   Yeah. Well, yes. Like, you're, like, almost at the point where, like,   you're about to jump into a rabbit hole to deal with something, and you're actually not sure if you're gonna grab hold of this thing when you jump in. What I've been find I've been searching for the entry to the rabbit hole. Right? Like, it's Yeah. This I mean, this started  

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in '20   late twenty   three. No.   '20   yeah. Early twenty three, late '20 '2 when I realized I had zero proof of work to, like, work in Bitcoin sort of thing. And I was like, what is a what is a problem   in the space   that I can identify and and move the needle towards? And that was this, like, minor centralization thing. The the   the the one thing that comes to mind is this concept of Feddy pools. So I was, like, looking at Feddy Mint. I came across this thing of,   or the idea of a federated mining pool. Right? Because,   even back then, like, the mining centralization was not trending in a positive direction.  

And so I was like, oh, this is a this is a problem.  

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How do I fix this? And there was once there was, like, pretty there was once a healthy dialogue   around this.   I thought, you know, we happen we happen to not be in a healthy dialogue right now, and maybe it's,   like, it's getting on us here too. Right? It's just like, there's not a healthy dialogue around a lot of these   things. And, you know, it's funny. Right? We the this podcast was created   out of,   I would say, fear of a social attack on us   preying on our it was like preying on our lack of math ability and our lack of ability to verify really what's going on that would Yeah.   And as, like you know, not to beat around the bush, but, like, this this kind of this public conversation that's happening around what Bitcoin is. You know? Mhmm. That   is, to me, in very unhealthy.  

Like, I'm not, like, seeing, I'm not seeing, like you know, dude, even in, like dude, even, like, when, in 2016 when Trump was elected and everything was, like, on   fire, that there were still, like, senators that were like, well, we still have decorum here. You know? And Right. Like,   we have none of that. You know? We have none of that. And   and we have a lot of,   just   people looking like they're well, people who formally used to contribute, I think, to healthy discussion are, like, running around right now with chick with chickens with their heads cut off.  

[00:04:51] Unknown:

Yeah. We and we covered the the recent drama in in at bit devs last night and everything like that. And and I I remember I recently quote tweeted when all this thing popped up.   Not tweeted. Nostra noted.   Look at that. We should just call it tweets. Nostra should just be tweets. It's a bird thing anyway. Yeah. It's just Even if it's on x or if it's on Well, x is x I t. It's a shit. Whatever. Right? Like, if it's on Maybe. Yeah. If it like, if it's on TikTok, I'd just say, oh, just click that. Way back when when the fees were ripping, like, a year ago,   and people were mad about JPEG Zen,   I was like, hey. Plug in an ASIC and collect those fees and then huddle that Bitcoin.  

And and, like, if you don't like what people are doing and and to me, it's like this mining it always comes back to, like, this mining thing, this mining centralization thing. And it's like, if you don't like people what people are doing with your blockchain,   right Mhmm. Plug in an ASIC and and enforce your will by hash power is sort of a solution to this.  

[00:05:50] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a version of, be the change you wanna be in the world or model that change. I mean, look. In Bitcoin, really, it is I was gonna say dollars and cents, but it's not. It's been Bitcoin. It's about sats. It's, what? Sats,  

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bits, Bitcoin,  

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MillSat? Everything is basically,   well, at least in the ideal,   economically motivated,   even if it doesn't appear to be.   You know, the defense against dishonest   users   was imposed   imposition of cost. And now,   you know, look, I so I it feels like we're about to be the change we wanna be, and we're gonna maybe try to model I don't know model since gay, but, like, to, like, just try to have a   sort out where we are in the absence of a real public conversation. We use this podcast to sort out maybe where we are because   what could be happening right now is the attack   that I worried about.  

The debts like, in in many ways, I see this as I see what's going on as that at least as that attack or a preview for that attack. Well, it's definitely something social. Right? Like, the worry of a social attack  

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is, like, there is a social dynamic going on right now. Because, technologically,   there's, like, a very black and white,   consensus. It's consensus policy is policy thing, but it it's interesting that we you talked about, like, the social,   and, like, what is the Bitcoin thing.   And I was listening   to the reorg, which is a, Satoshi Nakamoto I've been mired signing the reorg. Oh, it's fantastic. Go listen. It's listened to it for the last two weeks. Go listen to the reorg and come back here. Shout out, dude. Yeah. Pierre Richard, Bitzstein.  

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Legend. Great, great podcast.  

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They have this crash cork on crash course on the s and I.   So NakamotoInstitute.org,   and they have this crash course. And the the one of the most recent episodes, they they went back over this 02/2016 article about it's not about the technology. It's about the money. And, basically, it it it's this is like a Bitcoin is money, so this is a money thing. Right? This is an economical   human action thing, which is inherently social   because we're solving money solves for this barter issue that we have in our world.   And so   social is, like, the base layer. Like, layer one is Bitcoin. Layer zero is the social layer of Bitcoin.  

The people that understand, the people that are running nodes, the people that are running meetups, the people that are educating, the people that are grifting. Everybody's a scammer. Money because the social layer is not was not been proven enough to be sufficient to  

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prevent   corruption in humanity. You know? Like, that's basically why so we need money to coordinate   because we can't have we've tried tyrants   to dictate what people do with their time, and it doesn't really work that well.  

[00:08:40] Unknown:

Yeah. And   I've I've identified,   again, like I said, mining the mining thing has been on my mind. I've been building towards that technically.   Yeah. And I'm at the point now where I'm, like, found the entry to this these deep rabbit holes of, like, how is a coin based transaction constructed?   What can you do with a coin based transaction? Right? These are all mining concerns.   What are,   proposals that help with   coin based construction,   pool payouts, decentralizing mining, all this other stuff, And just being   in the the general ecosystem of Bitcoin,   I've learned that mining, like, mining operations is largely   a financial engineering game. It's a math problem. Right? It's a it's an accounting problem. Yeah. So, yeah, it's just so interesting you say that because when  

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the last time I remember this mining   decentralization   problem being constructive,   right, which is really the moment before,   I think, it would there was, like, a there was a slight honeymoon period   when the ocean guys   were bringing something to our attention. And there was a little honeymoon where we're like, okay. Yeah. That makes sense, and let's talk about it. And I would say that would be the moment the moment right before   they took they, you know,   launched. Ironically and coincidentally   are also the the, at the fulcrum of the current brouhaha. Like Right.   It's   what whatever it is before their little   neutron you know, they before they set off their bomb and just cause Tower Of Babel confusion, there was the actual constructive conversation about mining centralization,   particularly in,   you know,   what's the pool not not not PPLNS, the other pool? FPPS, full FPPS.  

So FPPS pooling. Right? Mhmm.   By the way, just if you guys are here and you're still with us, this is the podcast today. Okay? Yeah. We gotta tell we just we need to talk about some of the shit, but it's it's so fucking related. Okay? Because this is this like like I said, this is potentially this is to me what the attack looks like. So if I remember the moment right before what I think this attack   potentially unfolded,   we were having a there was a constructive conversation about how,   FP and a, my mining pooling,   was not what we think it was. There are, like, illusions. In fact, there are super pools,   okay, for lack of a better term, super pools that are really controlling the hash rate of pools that you think you're pointing your mind to. Like, you think you're pointing to brains,   but   it actually ends up being like ant pool at the end of the day that is   this and so I can I can add value to this? I wanna just dump some thoughts   because,   you brought it up, and there's no coincidences in the world. Fucking guys are working. K? We were Yeah. We're talking about this for a reason. So   you're the first person   who has even mentioned financial engineering to me in the context of this conversation. And this to me, it's all about   it's all about it. To me so when I heard the case   for what,   when I heard this case about how AMPOL and the super pools are really kinda scooping the hash rate of these smaller pools Yep.  

I'm an insurance   guy.   Yep. And You deal with risk. But it remind well, yeah, but I say that to say there's a subset of insurance called reinsurance.   Have you ever heard that term reinsurance? I have heard that term. Like, you're insuring the insurers. So, like, if I'm yeah. So if I, like, sold a bunch of life insurance   and I realized, oh, you know what?   I mean, I wanted their premiums, but they really are a bunch of fat folks and   who guzzle seed oil. So With six tabs. I'm actually gonna I'm gonna package it's like mortgage backed securities in a certain way. I'm gonna package the cash flows of these life insurance payouts and just sell them to another insure. I'm gonna get another insurance company to buy buy this from me. So it's off my it's technically off my books, but it's really not off my books because   in reinsurance,   you know, it's,   it's not off my books. There's a transaction   that,   but the the reinsurer doesn't have to make good. The reinsurer could could still rug me. Nobody thinks of, so, like, if I'm MetLife   and name another insurance company like MassMutual. Right? I'm like, I'm gonna sell a bunch of these life insurance back these what I think are, like, kinda I I look back and I I either regret it or   I don't have I need capital, and I'm not no one wants to buy my stock. So I'm gonna sell I'm just gonna sell off a bunch of my liabilities to somebody else.  

Right. Right? And I'm gonna you know,   they're gonna pick that up, and I'm gonna have capacity to so, anyway,   this idea of reinsurance,   the idea is that you're actually transferring the risk, and you are if they make good on the contract. But   and, you know, there's a Bitcoin super Bitcoin or a superpower you should have,   right, if you're in this game is to say, wait a second. Not all contracts get honored.   And   so you don't just wipe your liabilities because you are the ultimate you still hold that liability. But in the eyes of, like, who in the eyes of, regulators,   in the eyes of lenders, in the eyes of those who determine your ratings,   it's you have transferred that liability. So all of those, like, all of those people   assume you've   washed the risk away.  

So Yeah. Right. In the eyes of the you've minimized it or you've at least offered a way Right. But you've taken on a monetary risk. In your financial statements, in what you report for solve like, for how solvent you are, in what you report to how much capital you need to like, so in other words, all of the   the decreeers,   right, all of the fiat decreeers who basically get to say whether you're a viable company or not, they all view this as you just remove you just, like, took an like, Etch A Sketch. You just erase the Etch A Sketch machine and remove these liabilities.  

[00:14:47] Unknown:

Yeah. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. So in the eyes perceive it. Right? In the eyes of everybody who matter  

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Yeah. That's what's happened.   But we're sitting here, like, but that hasn't happened because so if all of those downstream companies go away   Right.   You're still holding the bag for all of it. You're now you you know, you hold the bag.  

[00:15:07] Unknown:

Well and it's it's distributing the risk. Right? Like, you it's like the I think about, like, the bailouts. Right? Like, they socialize the losses from the risk that were incurred   by Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and all that. Right? Like, it was like there was risk somewhere.   And then   at the end of it, when the risk blows up,   who is holding the bag to your point?   And and and the the big problem with the o eight GFC was the bag holders ended up just being  

[00:15:35] Unknown:

so the taxpayer. Right? And and anybody holding dollars because they started Yes. But that so that that's a second that's a second concern. Right? The first concern is just the mere fact that, you know, what AIG was holding the bag on a lot of the on all of these products.   And even though they look like they sold them to x, y, and z, once the once x, y, and z went away, AIG was basically left completely   still holding the bag. In In other words, there was this what I I wanna get across I I I what you're saying is really relevant as well because it affects us like the plebs. But, like, in this mining conversation,   there's this illusion that there's no that there's total risk transfer. So, like, there's this illusion that,   you know, brains transfers the risk to Anpool. They see, in order to have FP and A   right? What is FP and A? Right? What is it? It's basically it's a guarantee.  



[00:16:28] Unknown:

What do you mean FP and A? Sorry.  

[00:16:30] Unknown:

FPPS?   FPPS. I was I don't know what FP and A is. FP and A is financial state. I was thinking of my my brain's in financial statements because of the reinsurance.   FP and A is financial,   it it's fucking financial. Doesn't matter. FPPS is what we're talking about. In order to have FPPS  

[00:16:47] Unknown:

Well, can we clarify this for any listeners that's not clear on what FPPS is? Go ahead. So FPPS stands for full pay per share. It is an accounting methodology for mining pools that says, hey. You're a hasher. You're sending us hash rate. Every share that you find, and a share is just like a week almost block. Like, hey. We're hashing. We're trying here. We're gonna pay you a set amount for that. Yeah. So they're gonna 1% of the hash rate. You're gonna get 1%  

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of,   basically, the Bitcoin mining rewards from that pool. No. No.  

[00:17:18] Unknown:

That's no. That's not how it works. There's a there's a there's a full pay per share. So every share that you submit, you get paid out,   some   it it it's there's a way of calculating it. Right? PPLNS,   which is pay per last end shares, that's where, like, it's a per more of a percentage one.   I think FUPS can be sort of percentage y, but it's not like an exact percentage. It's just saying, if you're hashing to us, we will pay you regardless of whether we find a block or not. That's the point. That's exactly right. Yeah. So no. That right. So that the point is you you're getting paid  

[00:17:50] Unknown:

by contributing hash regardless of whether you hit a block or not. Right. K. So what that requires   for for so somebody the pool is offering is basically offering you a guarantee.   Right. Right? They are offering you a guarantee. And if you think about it, that pool could go   weeks, months, years before they hit a block, and yet they're still paying you. So they need capital.   It requires capital to offer that guarantee.  

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Well, in the the hitting the block, that's why you only see FPPS at, like, large  

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scale. Because Because you need cat bull you need because you need someone's capital. You can't so that   right? And so when brains got when brains,   got got basically   sliced from I I remember this. Right? They were, like, at a terra hash one or eight x a hash one day and down they got   they got completely,   it was when Riot left when Riot left them. Okay. They went from, like, eight to five or something like that in, like, a day. I remember because I was I was running as an excuse to train. Yeah. Yeah.   So, you know,   the that was when they that was when they changed their model, right, from PPLNS   to FPPS.  

PPS.   Right. FPNA.   FPPS.   Too many fucking abbreviations.   But,   it requires a deep pocket   to   do FPPS, to offer that to a pool. And if you don't have that deep pocket, you're gonna go to somebody who does if you Right. You understand? Yep. And so,   and it turns out, it's like you have at the top of this food chain at the top of this, like, reinsurance food chain, really, because that's what it is. Reinsurance is nothing more than,   giving your capital   to,   you know, bay you're basically giving your capital. You're renting your capital to somebody, a smaller player who needs it.   Yeah. Yeah. It's just you know, that's I mean, if you look at insurance, that's essentially what it is too.  

Assuming that everybody stays solvent and everyone pays their bills.   But what is at least like, it's at least known. Like, if I buy an insurance policy   that's re that I know is reinsured by somebody else, like, it's in the document. Like, I know that. Mhmm. It's very   opaque   that   I mean, I know people I I don't know why they do it. I just think, you know, people are people are not very informed in the mining space. Let's put it that way. Right? And there are people that pick there's nothing wrong with brains pool or anything like that, but they're they pick it for, like, ethical reasons or something, and that's strange to me. But they do. Not and then they and then they then then one day, they realize, well, that all that hash is actually going to Antpool,   and all they're doing like like, dude, there are people that put that there are people that have bid access running on BrainSpool. Right. And they don't have they have no like, who's gonna tell these people? Somebody tell them. Somebody tell them they're not decentralizing the network  

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by And it's not like,   directly hashing to Antpool. Like, that's a that's a technical misnomer there. But you're you're hashing to Brains.   There's just a bigger bag holder on the other side making  

[00:20:56] Unknown:

making brains whole in the event that they have bad luck for mining, meaning they don't find the block. There's a price. And so what's the there's a price for that. And the price for that is that brains gets to make the block template.   Maybe. Right? Or brains gets to basically, the way and the way it works in the capital world, when you're the provider of capital, you set all the terms.   Mhmm.   K? So you might not see it in a financial statement. Right? But you set all the rules, and you are the sovereign. Okay?   So, like Okay. Dan Pool's the sovereign, brains is the bitch in this relationship.  



[00:21:28] Unknown:

Whoever's provide you know, the capital provider is the sovereign. The capital taker is the bitch. Well, and this is same with, like, Foundry and all their hash rate providers. Right? Because it's the same thing. Yeah. Foundry is like, all the all the hash hashers at Foundry are beholden   to the term set forth by Foundry.  

[00:21:46] Unknown:

It's the same Same with Antpool. It's the same with, Neil Kablets and the Ethereum Foundation.   Interesting. It's just it's the same with anyone.   You take like, you know, this is something that young people need to understand in, like, the Bitcoin space. But when you take capital,   by the you know, let me we can talk about   10/31   and, you know, that Yeah. When you when you take capital, you are now under the thumb of whoever provided the capital to you. This is why financial freedom is a thing.  

[00:22:16] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. It just is what and, you know, to There's a the other set like, you as a capital provider   want your capital back  

[00:22:24] Unknown:

probably plus some percentage too. You're not altruistic. You're not altruistically   giving your your capital is valuable.   Yep.   And it you're not giving it you're not giving it away for free. You're not renting it for free for nothing.   Now you may not be taking a yield. You may not be imposing a financial cost, which would be transparent to everybody. So, like, that's But But you might be shutting the block templates down somebody else's throat. The most transparent way to impose a capital cost on someone is to get a payment for it, like a a charge a yield.   If you don't do that, then it's going to be terms. You're gonna basically   favors. It's mafioso   territory  

[00:23:05] Unknown:

now. You know? Well, and this is not like a new paradigm. Like like you're saying, this is this is like a a tale as old as time.  

[00:23:13] Unknown:

Yes. And, like, you know, if like, people thinking Bitcoin's gonna, like, change that, it's just gonna basically, it's going what what it what Bitcoin's gonna do   is make it so that   the bad   the bad investors   get punished   without the ability to print money to not they're gonna get held accountable by market.   Now we're not we're nowhere near that time right now. So, like,   we are operating in a Bitcoin ecosystem   where there's still no accountability   because,   a lot of companies are backed by Fiat monsters.  

[00:23:50] Unknown:

Well, and there's still there's still 3.125   Bitcoin in each block as well. That's like the from, like, the the mining economics thing.   You have to understand that the guaranteed revenue of blocks trends to zero.   It's a very slow trend, but it does trend to zero. And then there's this incentive for miners to try to collect as many fees as possible because they have bills to pay. They have energy and people to pay,  

[00:24:17] Unknown:

a lot of fees and everything like that. Well, a lot of miners took FPP,   FPPS for granted   as though   they were getting like, the I heard a lot of miners saying, you know what? This is what pays the bills for me. Mhmm. I'm gonna use it.   And I had no like, you know, I've looked at a problem with that. Right? Do what you gotta do. Yep. But what they didn't understand was what they were giving up for that   necessarily.  

[00:24:45] Unknown:

Well and that's why the the   and it's only made sense for a a hash rate of a certain scale as well. That's like There was like an entitlement.  

[00:24:53] Unknown:

I noticed there was an entitlement   associated with the FPPS   type of payout.   And the truth is if no you know, if they if if Ampull didn't come in and backstop   a lot of this, it wouldn't exist.   Right. And so it you know? So and someone's giving them capital  

[00:25:13] Unknown:

to do it probably too. But Well, they're selling the machines to raise capital. Like, that's that's they're they're they are the monopoly.   They are the proprietary Bitcoin mining empire   that has carved out this sort of natural monopoly for whatever reason   where they're the major supplier of ASICs across   the entire network.  

[00:25:33] Unknown:

Yeah. But their ability to their ability to do that   arguably is still a Fiat phenomena.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Like, they should theoretically go I mean, they should have been crushed in 2017.   You know?   Yeah.   Their ability to just continue to renew their their ability to get capital is a fiat phenomenon. So we're we're like, we this may not change in our lifetime.   Okay?   But it's it's it's like we're a long way out from   companies being held accountable for their good and bad decisions. K. Now that's a I I I do believe that's an ideal we will have   because of Bitcoin. It's just that you and I probably won't see it. It's gonna take a long time.  

Yeah.   So we have to like, that's why so this is exactly why when I see people running around now saying the sky is falling because of x, y, and z. It's like, dude, do you realize you live in a long times you live in a you're supposed to have a low time preference. It's not a moral thing. It's just more of, like, we all kind of agreed   we would look beyond,   you know Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we have a tacit agreement that we have a semi long time horizon for the way we think about things. At least the adults problem is The adults in the discussion do. Rock paper Bitcoin has told everybody that the pole shift's happening soon. So everybody's short time low time prep or, high time preference now. Half of Rock paper Bitcoin has said it's happening soon. The other the other half has been saying,   it might happen.  

Yeah.   That was a poor joke. Yeah. Well, it's but it's it's real, though, because   we have such a tendency   to overreact.   We there's a real allure to the sky's falling thing because I think it I think what it does is   it maybe relieves us of the responsibility of the fight we actually have to have.   You know? And,   you know, I could I could bring this into math right now, but, like, I I just don't I'd rather I wanna just sit with I want people to sit with this idea.   It it it is math, though, because it's it's it's accounting. It's It's a different kind of math. It's not the cryptography method. Same idea of just we have to learn how to like, when we say we have to, like, really build ourselves into being able to do hard things.   Mhmm. One of the hard things to do is not,   is to actually accept   accept what we're capable of doing and which that maybe what we're capable of doing is moving the boulder   a millimeter up the hill in our lifetime.  

But that might be the millimeter that   makes the difference for our kids. But, like, that's   accepting that's all we and but we never get to give up on that. We don't just get to be like, well, oh my god. I guess, you know, this millimeter thing's never happening because I don't like us because you treated me like a like a baby.   Right. And so I'm gonna take my toys and go home. And, you know, you have people who are, like, leaders in this discussion that just really go around,   you know, causing that kind of noise.   And,   you know, we need to like, if Bitcoin's antifragile and we actually have a lot low time preference, then we have to be like, well, okay. Something's not right right now. Clearly, something's not right at Bitcoin Core. Something's not right in   something's not right clearly in the in the ether sphere of Mhmm.  

You know, the people who are upset at Bitcoin Core.   And now it's like it's it's like, it's like the worst version of wokeism and   because it because Bitcoiners are supposed to be above it.   You know? Yeah. And they're not Yeah. That's fair. It's like they're supposed to be better than this, and it it's, like, really opens the door. It opens the door to the attack. Like, if I'm, you know, if I'm, like, one of these,   Brad Garlinghouse or one of these people that I'm salivating right now, I'm like, oh my god. It is so easy Yeah. To just, like, it is so easy   to fucking rile these people up into a frenzy and get them distracted. It's really easy.  

And I would be, like, KGB style just popping issues into their   you know, I I can fund their I can fund all the podcasts they listen to and they trust.   Like, they they can't do I can't do rock I can't get to rock, paper, Bitcoin or motivate the math because, you know, can't get to them. But I can get to the ones that they all listen to and get and, you know, I can decide what they all like, the saying. Right? We can't tell them what to think, but we can tell them what to think about.   Yeah. I can determine what they think about and what they fight about. And then when I find the thing that really   fucks them up, that's when we come in. That's when we come in and,  

[00:30:10] Unknown:

you know, that's when we come in and really do our damage. It's interesting. So there's another one. Have you ever seen the presentation, and I'll link it here in the chat?   It's it's titled   NSA operation orchestra annual status report   at Fostom   twenty fourteen.   And it's presented as a as a   satire ish, but the the essential the the sort of,   the introduction is if you don't like something that's sort of like open source and you want to gum things up, you you introduce bike shedding, you introduce infighting, you introduce chaos at the social layer. And it's a really well done it's about forty five minute presentation, but it's a really one well done laying out sort of like,   hey. You know, here's here's how we could we could do it if if we wanted to,   if we wanted to sow chaos in in an open source movement.  



[00:31:00] Unknown:

And, Absolutely. And that's part of the I mean, do I know we're gonna survive all this? No.   But if we are, we're gonna definitely get through it. We you know, the immune system's gonna figure out   how to handle these situate if it's gonna you know, we're gonna run around saying Bitcoin's antifragile. Well, it's not it's it's not just a self fulfilling prophecy. We actually have to sit and think  

[00:31:24] Unknown:

think about it, do and be ready to do hard things. Something about it. Yeah. You could've been ready to do hard things. It's not just you you you can just do things. It's like, you know, you must do things. You must do something.   And that something ideally is aligned with long term   economic incentives   for the for for Bitcoin. But you can't rely on everyone else   having the same aligned incentives.  

[00:31:49] Unknown:

I can't relate to people just sitting and doing nothing. I can't relate to it. Like, my personal my reason I'm here right now is because I it's like, dude, I'm putting my life savings in something no one's ever understood before.   And I try to I try to go understand it, and I see a pile of numbers with no fucking explanation. Like Mhmm. Okay. That's a problem for me and that, like, you know,   required action. I would assume that people are in their own stage, whatever stage they're in.   Everybody's in their own stage of what there's nobody that's totally comfortable with fucking Bitcoin. Right? You'd have to be absolutely retarded.  

[00:32:25] Unknown:

Yeah. That was that was a great, I won't say who, but last night at BitDevs,   somebody was essentially saying, hey. If anybody is out there telling you that Bitcoin is perfect and it works flawlessly,   they're retarded and stop listening to them.  

[00:32:40] Unknown:

I mean, that's a tough one of the attack. That is, like, the greatest social attack you can possibly do. It's like, it's done. It's absolutely it's already won. And that's why, like, Rod and Dick love to make that joke   because Yeah. It's like, that's, like, probably the strongest attack. It's, you know, again, because that's the one that it's complacency and that's, like, p you know, people have a wish fulfillment bias   that Right. You know what? Please tell me my life could be, like,   it could be about something other than I don't have to wake up every day and study math. Like, that's for me. Yeah. Like, really? Yeah. Yeah. Please do I do I can I just go back to watching TV?  

[00:33:17] Unknown:

But somebody has to study math. Right? And it's like put binding finding putting the signal out there   to   to get to the antennas that are tuned to that message, I think, is is here.   And there's a variety of math. Right? Like, the the financial engineering that we led off with with this reinsurance and everything like that,   it's just running the numbers. And right now, the only economically viable scale for mining   for this financial engineering for for reducing the risk and the variance and all that other stuff happens   to be centralizing  

[00:33:47] Unknown:

in force. It goes yeah. But it goes to, like, the fact is   mining's a bad deal for if your goal   is strictly financial and economic, mining's a bad deal. If your goal is Depends on your time horizon. It but but like I said, that's what I mean, though. Your goal Yeah.   If if your goal is,   future value   Mhmm.   You could the the let's just put it this way. The longer you're able to think out into the future,   the more you might could get close to an equilibrium an economic equilibrium.   Mhmm. If your if your view is today or even in the next four years, it's bad deal. Mining is a you know, there are way better ways   to get Bitcoin.  

Right.   If your  

[00:34:37] Unknown:

goal you know what I mean? It it But there's not a better way   to   ensure the security of Bitcoin. And I always take kind of the issue with, like, security as, like, the mining thing. It's true, but it's not just the security. Right? It it's the   the people that are mining the blocks decide which transactions go in the blocks. Whether whether you like it or not. Right? Like, this this this,   tragedy of the commons that is the mempool. Like, the mempool is   I am dedicating my node and its resources,   meaning its bandwidth and its compute to sort of gossip out these transactions and and and relay them along. But it is completely there's no financial motivation for me to do that necessarily.  

[00:35:19] Unknown:

I have a great little aside right now. Just   literally an hour an hour ago.   Shout out Rob Palmer, but he sent the, he sent   a YouTube. It was,   an old video,   and it was like, an it was an old episode of Simply Bitcoin.   And, like, my god, how far, like, they those guys have fallen. Yeah. But, like, back in the day so this was the day in 2021   that Tesla announced   their   Oh, the Bitcoin holder. Bitcoin.   And, like, you know, those two guys, Nico and Phil, they look so young and so happy to be there. You look that thing only had a 90 views even today. Like, they're just love of the game, but, like, the the reason I bring it up is because the next story after that   was,   Slushpool is is centering transactions.  



[00:36:12] Unknown:

Interesting.  

[00:36:13] Unknown:

Memory hold. Totally memory hold. Right? Yeah. Very interesting.   But that like, there used to be podcasts where people   weren't   really just, like, scavenging influence.   Now these people would end up doing that, but, like, back then, it didn't seem that Yeah. It was the case. They just fought love of the game, and they weren't scavenging for influence.   Right. And they were they they were really excited   about Tesla,   and then that segment ended. And then they're like, well, this is also really important. Do you ever kinda know that, like, one of your favorite your favorite,   you know, one of your favorite pool mining pools is also,   centering transactions?  

Yeah.   Like, that's always been an issue. Right?   Always been an issue. And so if that's an if that's your goal,   okay, mining might be a good deal for you.   But if you're and this goes like, I'm not plugging my book here, but I've been doing podcasts about this subject for the last   three weeks. What do you mean? The subject I'm about to just mention in my from the sort of the crux of my book, which is, like, Bitcoin Bitcoin's for individuals and individuals who are given value. And Yep. If you value if if all Bitcoin is to you is a return, you will always be outbid by in people like Gary and I because we just view it as way, way, way, way more than that, and we'll always value it higher, and we're always gonna outbid   the return people. So if all it did and so and that's sort of the point with if you're just if if Bitcoin, all it is is a return or a means to pay pay the bills right now, it's a bad deal. I mean, mining is mining's a bad deal.  



[00:37:45] Unknown:

It's ruthless. It's one of the most ruthless industries out there because it's a direct trade from for energy   for Bitcoin, except you have this added complexity   of the physical world and operations   and machines and people  

[00:38:00] Unknown:

and jurisdictions. It's a Rube Goldberg project for Bitcoin where it'd be unfortunately,   I   I guess there's better financial engineering   that makes it easier and more economically viable to get Bitcoin   than mining.   Yeah. You know? Well, it   yes and no. I should say I'm sorry. Bitcoin exposure.  

[00:38:21] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that too because,   one of these sort of,   I don't wanna say counters, but one of the,   things that if you ever hear Harry Sudak from CleanSpark talk. Mhmm. I think at the end of last year, he had a couple podcast appearances. But he was talking about how their   their company's cost to mine Bitcoin was, like, 36 k. So even even if the price were to tank down to whatever,   it's still a   economically  

[00:38:51] Unknown:

rational and viable business line for them to continue pursuing. For some people, it is. For Riot, it is because they pay 2¢ they pay 2 and a half cents a kilowatt hour. So There you go. You know? You know, if you have a ten year deal with ERCOT   that,  

[00:39:06] Unknown:

you know Financial engineering.  

[00:39:08] Unknown:

Has a mark to market. Yes. And there, you know,   there's a mark to market value of that deal   Yep. That can only be realized   by spending the electricity   Yeah. And doing the mining. Right? It's a good deal for a riot.   It's just, you know, for me and my house, I pay 16 and a half cents kilowatt hours. Bad deal. Oh, jeez. That's worse than mine. But I might be irrational and wanna do it anyway.  

[00:39:34] Unknown:

But that's again, the the economically viable scale for you do that. Right? Like, you're not   you might be running an s nine in your basement. A lot of people might be running s nine still.   But getting,   hash rate and this is where I'm bullish on the bid ax project and the two fifty six foundation because they're they're making it more economically feasible for like, so so for instance, they just released this thing called ember one. It's a hash board. It's got, I think, 12 ASIC chips on it. You can connect it via USB to your laptop and mine with it.   Right? And it's a hundred watts.  

That is not gonna move the needle very far on your electric bill even at 16¢ a kilowatt hour. Right?   So that that's what I'm saying. Like, at scale, you can't mine at 16¢.   At scale, you can't mine at, like, 10¢. Right? Like, that's rough. Your your your the margin is just Even with the bed acts, I'm still paying 16¢ per kilowatt hour. Just No. Absolutely. But it's it's it's a,   you're able to do that   more like, you're able to incur that cost   because it it's lesser   to do, and and more people can do that. So you you spread out the hash rate. Right? So, like, more people might be willing to mine at 16¢ a kilowatt hour with a BitX or Amber one hash board that's a hundred watts as opposed   to having an s 19 or an s 21, which by the way is, like, noisy as fuck. It looks ugly. It's like the shoe box thing. It's not gonna fit anywhere. Your wife's gonna complain because the fans are super loud. And, oh, by the way, there's a a shelf life. Right? It's hardware. Like, these these things have a shelf life. Hardware the natural entropy of our reality  

[00:41:09] Unknown:

affects hardware. And so do you know who the enemy is? Like, you know who fucked over the BitX   movement? Same pea it's same it's the same thing that fucked over the decentralized hash conversation,   which is the same   well, I'm not gonna say it's a who. It's the same it's there's a driving force called the virtue signal.   Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the like, the it's very clear in the decentralized,   you know, now with the you know, how they brought in filtering and running knots and all. It's just total virtual signal competition that that's why I said before it reminds me of just the the whole work shit. Yeah. Yeah. It's become like, oh, I'm running knots, you know, and our   filters work.  

Yeah. You know, I was saying that,   like,   filters work is the new trust the science.   And, like,   you know, Bitcoin is money.   Like, that's the new, like, black lives matter.  

[00:42:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. What so   interesting that the   And Have you have you seen this thing called parasite. Space?   It's a new mining. It's a new mining pool. And if you if your bid acts finds the block. Right? Because so what they did is, like, I think first of all, they're like JPEG trader things. Right? So they're they're not in a realm that I normally find myself in. But I have friends that live in that realm. So I was like, hey. Like, what's the deal with this? And come to find out that they I go to those realms sometimes. If you bought a one of their JPEGs, you got a bid x.   So their whole community,   they were seeding with hash rate, right,   consistently. Hey. You want a JPEG? Cool. You get a free bid x with it. Awesome. Sweet deal. Right? They get their your stats. You get a bid access and a JPEG. Right? Whatever reason that made sense to people, that's fine. But what it did is now they have hackers out there. It's a community of hackers,   and they're they're sitting at let's see. What is this?  

They are sitting at   eight Petahash.   Significant.   That that yeah. That's not nothing. So, just for context,   Bitaxe is,   the most current gen gammas are 1.2   terahash.   Most of them are, like, half a terahash.   A petahash is a thousand terahash.   Right? So they have 8,000   terahash.   That's, like, 8,000   bid access   potentially. Now there's probably other minor varieties in there and everything like that, all mining to the pool. But the novel thing that they did, the novel financial engineering and why this is what I'm saying is a math problem. It's an accounting problem. Is they're saying, hey. If your machine finds the winning block, we're gonna pay you a whole Bitcoin, and then the rest will pay out to the pool normally.   That's interesting. Right? I guess it's like This is it. It's interesting. It's not actually like, some, like, degen experts, wallet,   ordinal thing.  

But, again, I've I've I've talked to friends that I I I consider their friends. I respect their technical prowess in the space.   And they're like, yeah. Like, this is this is like a thing. This is like a a well known wallet used in the ordinal space. Is this like a So, like, it's so interesting because so in you know, when you see, like, the virtue signal force come in, it becomes purity testing, and it becomes all that. Yeah. And,  

[00:44:08] Unknown:

like, then what so you you you sort of like this group of people starts to alien completely become alien alienate everybody who   would   even associate with a JPEG.   And yet so now now these guys are like, you know what? Guess what?   We're just gonna you know, we're gonna make everyone in our world a BitX owner.  

[00:44:29] Unknown:

Right. Just almost to spite these people. The JPEG the the JPEGers did the same thing with custom transactions. Right? Because when the whole JPEG ordinal thing kicked off, there was no tooling around it. So you had to handcraft some of these transactions or you would lose your rare sat or whatever. Right? But what that meant is all these Discord servers of all these JPEGs people   were running nodes and crafting custom transactions and learning how Bitcoin worked,   which to me, like, having that technical understanding, that technical knowledge in your community,   it gives you an asymmetric advantage over a community that has no technical understanding.  



[00:45:04] Unknown:

I loved the idea of BitX when it came out. I thought that was kinda and, you know, it really It is it is a modern I don't wanna say miracle, but, like,  

[00:45:13] Unknown:

to to put in a context,   this dude Scott spent, like, two years reverse engineering   a chip   Yeah. Figuring out what electrons needed to go and which pin on the chip to make it do SHA two fifty six hashing.   And it took forever because bit name, again It it arrived did not publish anything. But in in some you know, it arrived  

[00:45:33] Unknown:

right,   like, at this it arrived right in time for Yeah.   Ocean to   muddy their ocean.   You know what I mean? And and, you know, it gave them a boost,   but it also   it gave them a scarlet letter   at the same time.   You know, it's so funny because it's, like, the idea is so great. And, you know, you can always imagine, man, imagine millions of people doing this and, you know, really, decentralizing   hash is an is a good idea. Right? It's definitely it was I'm I was glad to see that issue come to the come to light. I actually,   as much as I criticize   mechanic and Luke and those guys all fucking day long, I do think what they're doing.  

Well, I think that was one good thing they did. Yeah.   You know, it is what it is. But, like, then it do you know who Dave Attell is? The legendary comedian Dave Attell? No. I I mean, yes. I think so. He had a joke.   He had a joke about just, like, about going to work out, and he's like, they got all kinds of weights at the gym. He's like, I saw a one pound weight. It's like, who's lifting a who's trying to lift a one pound weight? Like, can you even open a door?   I It's a bit extra. It's a fitness buff. I have lots of ideas for one pound weight. No no shit. Right? You can do things. Yeah. It's a lot of things, but it's a funny it's like somebody finally had to come and say the obvious thing. Right? Which is like Well, I think it's it's if you if you The bit is the one pound. Understand the use for a one pound weight, though, you missed the whole point. You go to the gym and you're like, can you open a fucking door? It's like, no. But that's what happened. A lot of BitX people were co opted. Stabilizers.   Yeah. All these they they thought these like, this is a social movement with people who thought   with their one pound weights, they were gonna build an army.  

Right. Okay.  

[00:47:20] Unknown:

No. What yeah. No. I it's well, I I think that analogy falls down because what they're what the bid acts has evolved into   is now   open source hash boards   and open source other mining things that, again, that they're reducing the economic scale. Right? Like   and and and the hardware is now coming to fruition.   You know what I mean? Like, there there are more chips being made. You've got block working on chips. You've got Aradine working on chips aside from just, like, your Bitmain thing. But it's it's not the complete solution. You need the financial engineer. You need the math. You need the math to work out for people   to to make it click in their brain to say, oh, why would I ever plug in a BitX? That's stupid. It's just a lottery. Well, no. Hey. It it is a lottery. You can get a small trickle of sats if you point it to this parasite pool. And if you're the lucky one, you get a full Bitcoin. Like, how about that? Badass. Well, I mean, actually, dude, I you know, I wish people understood that  

[00:48:14] Unknown:

there's there's more power in a lottery ticket   than there is in,   like, something that pays one set every month.   Right. Yeah.   Well, if you know, it's called like, we would in the financial engineering space, I don't wanna like, not to be a alienating dick. We would call you know, you would hear gamma or something. You know? You you you get optionality now. Tell me. You get optionality,   basically, where you know? It's almost like   okay. Why why is,   why isn't a baseball game not just one long   27   out? Why is why is it why is it broken up into innings?   Right? Or why is a basketball game broken down into quarters? I don't Right. Well, okay. Well, you start   the illustrating answer is   look at the amount of pressure.  

The the weird type of shit that happens always happens in the last, like, five seconds of a quarter. Or it happens when there's two outs at the end of the inning and the team is at the last desperate at bat.   That's all weird. Hope. When the pressure is all because when the game is decided   at a moment, not and it's not the and this is the FPPS   kinda problem. Right? When Mhmm. The illusion is you have no risk. The you actually have no life. This is like the illusion of no volatility.   Yeah. You need the pressure of the game being decided   at these points to actually cause people to wake up and do shit.  



[00:49:44] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Because a smooth line on your your your heartbeat monitor in the hospital is a bad deal. My and so the point is you could lift a one pound weight forever.  

[00:49:54] Unknown:

You're and and it's never gonna do what, like,   lifting to failure once in a while will do.   Right.   And there's a reason for that. Right? So it's,   again, it's like, I guess people need to know their weapon.   But, like, I I would like for people like, maybe it is a math education thing. I don't know. But, like, I would like for people to appreciate the fact that a lottery ticket like, something that something that gives me one sad a month   isn't gonna cause me to dream about anything.  

[00:50:24] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, that's the whole adage of, like, if you, what is it? If you want people to, like, build ships, you have to make a mear for the sea. Yes. We have that was we talked that was from the mathematicians lament.  

[00:50:34] Unknown:

Yeah. Do that in this podcast. Yep.   Well, that might have been quoting Mark Twain or something like that from the mathematician. I've seen it quoted a few times. I think I've seen Gigi mention it a couple times. But it's but so you have to have basically   you know, in Bitcoin, you know what? We have, like, ten minute periods where the game is decided.   And, you know, there are people who do live and die by,   you know, whether or not they got that block.   Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. You can really you can really delude yourself, like, into this   again, you can delude yourself into the idea that there's no volatility, and it's the same conversation around price, and it's the same like, you need to embrace volatility.  

People need to embrace volatility and make themselves strong enough   to   Withstand it. Yeah. To   to to benefit from it and to actually thrive   in a world   where that's that's the case. I mean, shit. The world's a hostile   fucking   cesspool   of danger.   Yeah. Yeah. You know? Very true. If I didn't have this house with, like, air conditioning, man, I'd be subjected to some real serious shit. Right. You know? And I'm quite domesticated   from the idea of of,   the smooth smoothness   in my day to day.   But the reality is the world is a goddamn   fireball.  

And,   you know, we I I think it's good for people to  

[00:52:02] Unknown:

I don't know. Maybe it's good for boomers in their fucking eighties to avoid volatility, maybe. But, like, you you know, if you're young Well, your strength is sapped as you age. Right? Like, that's just the enter again, the entropy of the universe saps your strength over time. So there is a desire to smooth it out toward the end. And I think   unless I'm way off base and understanding here, it's like, historically, yes. Like, the older people in the tribe   didn't do the hunting necessarily anymore. Right? Unless you're like some robust, you know, old warrior. Freak.   But even still, you know, like, it you're gonna trend towards not doing these things because your your fragility has increased. Your your entropy is way higher.  

You've you've decayed to a degree that you can't withstand as much volatility.  

[00:52:44] Unknown:

Yeah. So that's interesting.   It's already gotten you.   Yeah.   Like, lottery tickets are   really, really powerful. Like, there was this, you know, New York, the commercial was all it takes is a dollar and a dream.  

[00:52:59] Unknown:

There's All it takes is a bid x and a dream. Is that what you're telling me?  

[00:53:03] Unknown:

I think that if you really put yourself you really I mean, one of the things that money with an s nine had me think about was, you know, do I wanna be in a pool, or do I just wanna let this thing fly and see if I this is back in the 6.25 era. Like, the idea of a 6.25   block was pretty   Pretty juicy. Damn juicy.   Right? And it definitely made you think a little bit about these properties.  

[00:53:26] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:53:27] Unknown:

3.125,   I'm sure it does too, but not as much. And it's gonna  

[00:53:32] Unknown:

What I think the future is gonna be is, you know, you you wanna consolidate your UTXO's you've accumulated over your lifetime,   but you don't need to.   Well, you could mine your own UTXO consolidation for zero fee,   And maybe in the next five years, it confirms, and you're good. Right? And, like, that's that's something I see as a possibility. But it it all just goes back to just financial engineering and and understanding   the math of how  

[00:54:00] Unknown:

how it works. I I don't even like the term financial engineering, unless it's used pejoratively.  

[00:54:06] Unknown:

That's fair. That's fair. Alright. Just it's just math. It but it is math. It's Because people use it in this, like, wondrous way.  

[00:54:12] Unknown:

Mhmm. And it's   like, did no one call   here's a fun then here's a funny thing, man. A funny thing in the world.   Nobody I no one I ever worked with called themselves an engineer ever.   Right? Yeah. If they ask what they do, they're, like, they'll give some stupid answer that doesn't they don't even know, but no one ever thought to use the word engineer.  

[00:54:33] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:54:35] Unknown:

And, like, I see, like, most of the people who I've met in my life who refer to themselves as engineers, they're like soft they're software engineers.   And I'm like, why do you refer to yourself as an engineer?   I,   like,   I don't I don't know. Like, if you're building shit,   or you're building a you know, like, building bridges, I can see and, like, I'm an engineer. This is I saw this in the context of, I'm an engineer. I have a very, analytic way of thinking. I'm an engineer.   And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, yeah, what kind of engineer are you? Software.   Like, okay, buddy. You're not you may not be. You might be. You might not be, but, like, what is the obsession with   identifying yourself as an engineer?  

Financial engineer doesn't even think to do that.   Like, fuck, dude. We're, like, so not you know?   We're so not,   engineers that no one even no one even violates.  

[00:55:30] Unknown:

What and I think about   defining what engineering is   is part of it.   And one of the reasons why I call myself an engineer is because I seek to find solutions that reduce frictions. It not just in my life, but something I can share with other people to reduce the friction in their life too. It's like who you are. It's not your occupation.   Yeah. That's true. Who you are. That's fair. Yeah. Because you could do that in a number of different ways. So I just it's to say it's what I do for a living. You know? I I wanted to throw a thought out there too. It's like,   I think we   we we only have money because we have math, because we have numbers. Right? Like, it it it was a a way of creating   like, looking at the the history of money thing. Right? The ledger versus the token. Again, it's all counting. It's all math. It it's it is having ways of measuring and   calculating things, which I know you hate that calculating.  



[00:56:23] Unknown:

But it it's I think what you're hitting on though is this,   equilibrium.   This the this way of   this way of, representing   equivalence and balance.   Mhmm.   That's real you know, which is really what it what makes it work.   Right? Balancing   both sides of a ledger.   Well, how I mean, how do I I have two things that don't look like each other, and this goes back to why does it matter if I call something a group or not. But, like, I have two things that don't necessarily look alike. Yeah. But if I have a way of seeing them such that I see the balance between the two of them, I can I can create something like money?  

[00:57:01] Unknown:

And and that's that would be an equivalent class? Is it am I putting the right words? It could be. Like, it could be. We we could then say, well, equivalence  

[00:57:09] Unknown:

well,   in equivalence,   we would ask, okay. Is it does it have the three properties of equivalence?   Is it reflexive?   Meaning,   does a equal a? It's a trivial question. But   is it symmetric? If a equals b, does that mean b equal   if a is related to b, is this relationship, does that also mean b is related to a in the same way?   And then does it have transitivity? Whereas if a is related to b and b is related to c,   is then c does that imply c is related to a? Does that imply that these things all hold?  

[00:57:44] Unknown:

Interesting.   And so  

[00:57:47] Unknown:

math can be is the abstraction   that actually decides that two things that don't look alike, you can it's a way of deciding two things that don't look alike actually might might actually be equivalent.  

[00:57:58] Unknown:

Well, in that that last example there, I can't forgive me for immediately blanking on the term you use, but the a equals b c thing, transitive.   Like, b,   money is like this constant that can be used always as b in in this transitive case   where a hundred   Bitcoin of a is equal to a hundred Bitcoin of c  

[00:58:19] Unknown:

if they're both worth a hundred. That's what it's based you're talking fungibility essentially at that.  

[00:58:24] Unknown:

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For the monetary property of it, it's it's the fungibility  

[00:58:28] Unknown:

of the units. And the other thing that, Bill, well, the other thing that Bitcoin does that and I have to shout out the reorg for opening my eyes to this, and I stole a lot of their examples to explain this. But, yeah. There's no stealing share. Fungibility   through time. So and this is like I was lucky and I was lucky enough. I got to I I got to talk to Pierre about this one thing Mhmm. Which is, like, in the modern world, this so the the trick   there's a trick   in fiat,   which is,   this goes back to financial statements.   The trick is that everything is based on this thing called present value.  

Right. Yeah. And so if a dollar   because a dollar may be fungible   only at this moment   because in two seconds, it's no longer fungible   because it's losing its value. It's prompt fungible at this moment. So everything in present value is in balance.   But nobody   dares think that that's there's a dimension where   over time, it's not.   But clearly, ten years from now,   a dollar today is not fungible with a dollar 10 years from now. Right. That's why bonds pay coupons. That's why bonds pay loans pay interest.  

[00:59:44] Unknown:

Well, in this and the does this is this capturing the idea of the meme of one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin or one asshole is one asshole?  

[00:59:51] Unknown:

Yes. And both are the same.   And, you know,   both were memorialized   by David Lucas.   Yeah.   Shout out shout out to you, Gary, for that one.   But,   you know, what you're getting at is the, you know, all of the versions of ledgers we've had   have found certain things to be in balance,   but maybe those things have not that that the ability to maintain that balance over time has   never been figured out.   Right. And Bitcoin may be the best chance   We have at that. Of having something like that, and we're all very excited about it   even though we may not see it in our life.  

Right?  

[01:00:36] Unknown:

Yeah.   But   this just makes me ponder the, you know, the entry of is Bitcoin the only constant in the entry fee of our universe?  

[01:00:45] Unknown:

Look. If Bitcoin does nothing more than make people see that   present value is only good for us instant.   Mhmm. It's literally doing that. Like, that may literally be the only thing it accomplishes is that it actually gets people to see what they don't have.   It gets people to see their private economics. That their property is not private. That like, Bitcoin has the the promise of   of fulfilling these properties.   But what that it's actually gonna do today is make people see what they don't have.   And then, hopefully, that is the yearning to be at sea.  

[01:01:22] Unknown:

Bitcoin is the great awakening.  

[01:01:24] Unknown:

Well, we hope so.   We hope so. We do. Alright.  

[01:02:03] Unknown:

Where is my mind?   Where is my mind?   Where   is   my mind?