Which is more profitable - a live or dead rainforest?
John Goedschalk, Founder of Bio Tara and former Executive Director of Conservation International looks at how Bitcoin can empower these local forest communities, getting their products to market faster, and providing them with a currency that is not subject to 60% a year inflation, which is what his country, Suriname, has been going through.
Suriname's forests absorb more carbon than the population generates, making it carbon negative.
John has always been passionate about saving the trees and likens himself to The Lorax, a character who speaks for the trees. John believes that if we don't save the forests, there's not much that will keep us going on this planet.
BIOTARA provides communities with the tools, education, technology, and access to finance needed to create their own factories and processing plants. They ensure that every kilogram of oil or butter is sold even before it's produced. This approach ensures conservation, restoration, and community benefits. John emphasizes that BIOTARA is not an NGO but a business partner offering services to communities.
John discusses the challenges of working with investors who want to see revenue before investing. He believes in building a system with the right foundations before scaling up. John is currently making oils and butters out of his garage while developing the necessary technology and social safeguards.
Traceability is a crucial aspect of their work, especially with the EU deforestation regulation requiring proof that products come from non-deforested areas.
We discuss the importance of clean cosmetics and the need for more safe products for both adults and children.
John shares his experiences with the challenges of the banking system in Suriname, where many people are unbanked and unbankable. He believes that a stable currency like Bitcoin could provide solace to people in Suriname, who have been dealing with high inflation and currency devaluation.
We discuss the potential of Bitcoin and other digital currencies in empowering communities and creating circular economies. They also talk about the importance of education and ensuring that people understand and trust these new systems.
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https://Biotara.earth
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🔥 LISTEN TO EPISODE HERE
(00:00:01) Introduction and Guest Overview
(00:01:25) Meet John Godchalk: CEO and Cofounder of BIOTARA
(00:02:09) John's Mission: Saving the Forests and Empowering Communities
(00:06:02) BIOTARA's Projects and Impact
(00:10:37) Challenges and Investor Perspectives
(00:13:58) Traceability and Blockchain Technology
(00:22:06) Cost and Benefits of Traceability
(00:27:04) Digital Wallets and Financial Inclusion
(00:35:02) Suriname's Financial Landscape and Bitcoin
(00:46:07) Current Payment Methods and Challenges
(00:51:08) Blockchain for Traceability vs. Monetary Transactions
(00:57:03) Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts
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[00:00:02]
Unknown:
Hey, guys. If you care about mother nature and conserving the forest and the rainforest, My next guest, John Godchalk, is somebody who is doing that, and he's also empowering the local communities with a way to support themselves while keeping the forest alive. And 1 thing I really loved about this interview is he was talking about how to create the forest, you know, to be more profitable alive than dead. And this is super exciting, and he's also looking at how Bitcoin can empower these local communities and get their products to market faster and getting them a currency that is not subject to 60% a year inflation, which is what this country has been going through. So please tune in and you Hey. Aloha. Get ready for an epic episode. And if you love it, please share it. You know why? Because you got the love. Enjoy, my friends.
Hey. Aloha, love tribe. Welcome to Bitcoin for Peace. This is DJ Valerie Belove. I have somebody here who I had the privilege of seeing 1 of his presentations on Summit at Sea, and then we happened to meet in, the the lobby of a hotel afterwards. And we're like, hey. I I you look familiar. This is John Godczuk, CEO and cofounder of BIOTARO. Welcome. Welcome. Thanks for having me, Valerie. Good to be here. Heck, yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy to see you. It's been about a month since we met. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a little bit more. I think it was, like, the beginning of April, when we had Summit at Sea. So tell everybody, who is John and and why were we at Summit at Sea? Let's talk about this.
[00:02:09] Unknown:
Alright. Well, let me let me just introduce myself a little bit. So, I live in Suriname, which just happens to be the most forested country on Earth. It's 1 of only 2 carbon negative countries, and I have made a decision to keep it that way. That's right. So our forests are so vast that they absorb more carbon than we as a population in tsunami generate. So we are carbon negative.
[00:02:37] Unknown:
Wow. Is there any other countries that are carbon negative?
[00:02:40] Unknown:
Yeah. Bhutan. Bhutan is carbon negative. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. And, yeah, so I I, you know, know, I lived in a lot of different or let's not say a lot. A couple of different countries, and then I moved back home in 2, 008. And very shortly after that, I discovered that climate change is kinda gonna wipe out my city, kinda like Tuvalu and other places. Mhmm. It's gonna become virtually unlivable. And, you know, I just I just couldn't stand by. I said, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna do something about this. So I went on this mission that I'm still on today, build resilience for my country and for the communities, in Suriname.
But a lot of that has to do with saving the forest, to be honest. Because if we don't save the forests, there's really not much that's gonna keep us going on this entire planet. Right? So that really brought me to this mission where I wanna be able to tell my kids when they ask me, you know, like, 50 years from now, and they say, hey, dad. What were you doing when, you know, the forests were burning and the city was drowning? I wanna be able to say I was fighting for the forest. I was fighting kids to have a life, and that's what I've been doing ever since. So I've been on this journey for about 13 years now, going on 14, and I was at at summit on the boat, telling the story and inviting people in on the journey, people like you, Val, that, you know, I I wanted to just join me on this on this journey because, you know, it's it's a big task, and I definitely need all the help I can get, to get where we need to be.
[00:04:28] Unknown:
You do. And and I so applaud your work. And you used to be the executive director of Conservation International. Right? Yeah. And so you've obviously been passionate about being The Lorax. Remember The Lorax? Like, you're through the trees.
[00:04:43] Unknown:
Right. That's right. That's my handle, and that's how I like to think of myself. You know? I That's awesome. You think about the story of Dolorax, though. Right? I know, you know, last time you saw it or read it, but it's it's so much it's so recognizable. Right? It's what we see happening around us. Yeah. People feel that they need all these things, and that drives this this extractive and and and, like, the destructive economy that we've built as mankind. And, you know, if we're we're closely chopping down the last 1 of those trees, so to speak. Right?
[00:05:17] Unknown:
Yeah. And it's so sad. Like and I I think, you know, for all of us out there, like, we're so in we're in these bubbles. Right? We live in bubbles, and we don't know what's happening if we don't really are able to touch and feel it, and even multimedia is important, you know, but it still doesn't show truly what the devastation is. I mean, we all know how long it takes to grow a tree and it only takes moments to chop down that life, you know, and for what? That's the question, you know. And so, I think it's very important that we keep these conversations going and, you know, you're talking about resilience. And let so let's talk about where you're located and why you know, what the project is that you're working on right now with BIOTARRA.
You said BIOTARA because there's obviously Yeah. I'm I'm saying it like a a girl from Detroit here. So but, let's talk about this and, like, how how is this project gonna be, you know, supporting the local communities? How is it supporting the forest? And how is Bitcoin possibly going to be integrated into this solution?
[00:06:24] Unknown:
Yeah. Okay. So let me, you know, let me say right up front, I'm an economist, so, you know, I do look at things through a certain lens. Right? I look at human behavior, certain lens, and human decision making, specifically, which is not to say that I believe in homoeconomicus or anything like that. Right? I think that concept's outdated. Mhmm. But I do fundamentally believe that if we wanna save our forests, if we wanna keep trees standing, that we need to find ways for those trees and forests to be worth more alive than dead. Yeah. And that's not a hypothetical worth more. It's not a soft, mushy worth more. It's worth more in generative capacity, in regenerative capacity for people to make a living, to make a better life for themselves.
And that means jobs. It's that simple. People need to be able to create jobs using living forests instead of dead forests. They need to be able to build a better future for their children with living trees instead of dead trees. Right? So what what I learned during this wonderful time I had at Conservation International, I learned that when you're able to work with a community to create entrepreneurship and to enable economic agency, wonderful things happen. They get a sense of ownership. And in 1 specific case, I was, you know, again, really, really privileged, to work with this 1 community, of the the Tareno, indigenous people, and they asked me for help. They said, John, we wanna protect our forest. What our youth are leaving, we need jobs, we need income. And I said, how can I help? And they said, we've got all these trees, but no way to make a living.
So I said, okay. Let's let's you know, let's unpack this. Let's figure out how to make this happen. And we we work together with students from UC Berkeley, and we did all this research. And it turns out that these Brazil nut trees they have make wonderful oil wonderful oil for the cosmetics industries. And if you can harness the power and the economic value of that oil for the community as opposed to for middlemen, if you can do that, then these people can actually be there and protect the forest. So as I was kind of, you know, nearing the end of my time at CI, I said, you know, I wanna take that concept times a 100.
I wanna take that concept and make it available to any community who wants to have that kind of life. So that's what BIOTARRA is about. BIOTARRA is about enabling communities that wish to have enterprise and that wish to develop supply chains for the cosmetics industries with oils and butters and giving them the tools they need, giving them the resources in the form of education and training, technology like traceability software and certification, ensuring that they have access to finance so that they can own their own factories and processing plants, and making sure they get customers, all of this within the commercially viable model.
So what we do is not NGO work. We actually do business with these communities on an equal footing. We say we are your partner. We are your service partner, where we offer the service of access to finance, access to technology, and access to markets. And should you wish to engage in this, then we will do everything within our power to make sure that every kilogram of oil or butter is sold even before it's produced. And that's our commitment. And with that, we then ensure that there's conservation taking place, restoration taking place, and that the money that comes in actually goes towards the benefit of the entire community.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
I love this.
[00:10:39] Unknown:
Keep going. Go ahead. Go No. That's that's really it. Well, I mean, that's what we do. You know? And it's, you know, it's multifaceted. It gets complex, but it's also super simple. There are trees there. Those trees have fruits. Those fruits have value. The people that live there deserve to benefit from that value. Let's make sure those people benefit, and those people will steward the forests. That's really that's really the equation.
[00:11:05] Unknown:
And so how's it been going so far with the the the project? How are the folks in the communities responding? Are they feeling like, yay, finally not handouts, and now I get to have a hand, You know? I get to learn how to fish instead of you just giving me the fish. Right?
[00:11:18] Unknown:
The the communities are loving it. Right? So right now, we're working with, 2 communities in Suriname. We've got, 1 in in Brazil with whom we've already signed a regeneration pact, and we've got another 1 in Brazil that's lined up, eager to to engage. So the communities are all in. What's been interesting to me on this journey is that, apparently, investors are less in. Right? So, apparently, investors, as much as they say that they wanna save the forests, they, I guess, they wanna see revenue. Right? So so then and then I'm gonna be really honest there. Like, I'm I'm meet I'm talking to all these so called impact investors, and they're like, oh, it's amazing.
But let me see some revenue first. Like, come back when you've got a 100 k in revenue. Come back when you've got a a 1, 000, 000 in revenue, you know, which to me is interesting. Right? Because we're trying to save the world, I think, some of us at least, and a lot of, you know, impact investors are saying not under ambitions. Maybe that's the way of it. Right? They really wanna see you have all this revenue, which is weird because I'm actually trying to build a system. Like, I'm saying, let's get the foundations right. Let's get the formula right, and then let's start selling because we know the market's there. This is a $1, 000, 000, 000 I mean, listen, cosmetics?
What? We're gonna stop using cosmetics tomorrow? I don't think so. And we know people love nature based cosmetics, and that's growing. So we know it's a growing market. We know the market's there. So having investors kind of, you know, coming back all the time and saying, yeah, but let's see you have revenue first. I'm doing what I can to make that happen, so now I'm I'm kind of making oils and butters out of my garage. But to me, that's not really how we're gonna get things going. To me, if you wanna build these kinds of regenerative systems, you need to invest in the blueprint. You need to invest in the social safe guard, in the in the technology, and then you start really getting out there and and and going to market. That's my perception. But, you know, it's people people you know, they're they're owners of their own money, of course. So if I want them to invest, I'm gonna have to dance to their tune, to some extent. So that's that's what I'm out here doing. I'm, you know, hustling to get customers, making oil and butters out of my out of my garage, while at the same time, developing the technology for traceability that we need, and building the social safeguards.
[00:13:58] Unknown:
And is traceability like, let's talk about that. Because for folks who don't really know what that is, like, can you help people understand why traceability is important and what you see? Obviously, we talked about some regulation, that is gonna be requiring certain imports in different countries to have certain levels of of clean,
[00:14:16] Unknown:
supplies in their supply chain. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so 1 of the main drivers to our analysis, is the EU deforestation regulation. So it's this rule that the EU made, and it's going into into effect effect at the end of this year, that certain commodities need to be proven to come from a non deforested area. So it's not enough to say it comes from a non deforested area. You have to show on the map. So you need systems and software that tell you exactly where did you pick this fruit, where did you take that fruit, What did you do with the fruit? How did it turn into oil?
What airplane did you put it on or what boat? You need to show every single step of the way. So we're working with, 1 of the industry leaders on that called Farmer Connect. Okay. They're a blockchain enabled company, that, that uses IBM's, sustainable supply chain traceability solution. And traceability is becoming 1 of the most important differentiators for suppliers of products because consumers wanna know where their products are coming from. So you've got the regulator. Right? The EU is saying, hey. If you wanna keep exporting to us, you're gonna need to prove that this comes from a non deforested area, which is great for us because we're working with communities and we're doing wild harvesting.
So, specifically, we're not creating plantations. We're not cutting down any trees. We are only taking what mother nature is offering, which means regenerative harvesting of what's already there in terms of gathering fruits and nuts. So that's a bonus for us. So the fact that we are providing that type of product is a real boon for us. Okay? So that's the regulations, and that's for the EU. And it's my understanding that the US will have similar regulations over the next couple of years. And then there's consumers. Right? There's people like you and me. Like, I I for example, I stopped using shaving cream, and I just shave with oil. Like, Brazil nut oil is what I use. Right? Because if if you look at what's in some of these creams, it's not always, you know, it's not always great in terms of pimples.
[00:16:39] Unknown:
But I think, you know, it's I've I've, you know, I've after I became a mom, I got real clear on understanding what is going on my skin, what's going in my hair, all this stuff, and someone was just like, If it's not safe for you to eat, you probably shouldn't put it on your skin. And, you know, and and that's true because we absorb everything. This is our, obviously, our largest organ. And so, you know, as a mom, that was such a huge deal for me, and it's funny. I we may have mentioned this when we we met, but, you know, and this was almost, god, 16, 18, 20 years ago. My daughter's old now. She's 18. Oh my god. I have an 18 year old daughter. She's graduating this weekend.
But I remember at the time, you know, my daughter would go to, you know, Claire's boutique or all these, like, little crap stores in the mall, and her favorite thing was to get, like, these little palettes of makeup. You know? Because she's just like, oh, mommy, I wanna put on colored makeup and da da da. And, of course, I'm looking at the back of the ingredients, and, of course, it's all toxic chemicals from hell. And I'm just like, Oh, my gosh. I don't wanna let her keep putting this stuff on her. And so this, again, this was almost 20 years ago, 18 years ago, and the clean cosmetic industry was just starting to blossom, and, like, Juice Beauty and some of these other companies were starting to just come online. And I'm like, wow, we really need more more more products that are safe, you know, for kids and certainly, obviously, us adults because kids absorb stuff more than we do and it stays in their system longer, so it's much more dangerous and toxic for them to have these these chemicals.
And so I think it's really, really important that we, you know, keep going bit by bit, piece by piece of this of the supply chains and saying, okay. Well, let's get rid of these fake dyes or get rid of these things and so that we can at least not have too many chemicals in our soup. I think environmental working group says we we, you know, are exposed to, you know, a 100 chemicals a day And it's like nobody knows what, you know, people can go do a lab test and go, cool. This chemical is semi neutral, but you don't know what this chemical does when you mix it with all these other 100 chemicals and variables and mix and match, you know, in addition to the food you're consuming and all the other things that are going on. So, I think it's very, very it's important to be as baseline as possible with what we're putting in our body and on our body.
And, you know, a lot of us just buy stuff because it's cheap and that's what's in our budget, You know? And so it's like, how do we shift the mindset of our consumption to a place of, like, well, do I need to have 20 of these products, or do I need to have 1 really good 1? Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I think that's a big deal for us ladies because we like to have choices in all of our things that we like.
[00:19:36] Unknown:
So you know what the thing is, though? And this is maybe, you know, maybe it's it's not true in all cases, but when we look at the supply chain that we're looking to restructure right? Because, really, essentially, what Biotala is saying is we're taking out all these middlemen, and we are enabling the communities to to fulfill all those roles of those middlemen. Right? So we will help them have the presses and the drying machines so they can make it. Now where I'm going with this is that when you allow the value to stay with the communities and you have them do all you know, do depressing, all of a sudden, you can get these products at market rates. So you don't need to get if you buy products that use the BIOTARRA sourcing, the oils and the butters, by using those oils and butters for yourself, you're contributing to, saving the forest, to empowering these communities, to making sure biodiversity is there. All of these great benefits, but it doesn't have to cost more because what we're doing is we're making it simpler. We're going back in time to go forward. Right? Yes. So we are this like, we're, disaggregating?
I'm not sure that's the word. I think it's this disintermediating
[00:21:05] Unknown:
Disintermediating.
[00:21:06] Unknown:
Yeah. Disintermediating this supply chain to make it simpler, more traceable, and healthier. Right?
[00:21:14] Unknown:
So So okay. So let's talk about the so we've got 2, obviously, tools here. We have you know, you were talking about the the the Farmer Connect, the Pharma Connect with Pharma. Pharma. Farmer, not Pharma. No. Right? Farmer. Oh, this is exciting and even better. So the Farmer Connect, and you said that that is a Microsoft blockchain or an IBM blockchain?
[00:21:37] Unknown:
So they use IBM's, blockchain system for for supply chains, but they are their own software companies. So they've got their own layer, and they just write the data to the chain, you know, to make sure that it's immutable. But they have a full system that allows us to track and trace every step of the way, take pictures, you know, geotag, all the different elements you need to be able to interface with the EU's custom systems.
[00:22:06] Unknown:
And so for this, because obviously, a blockchain is big and expensive to maintain versus just a typical database. Right? And so is this simply you know, it obviously costs more money to do this, and it's like all these regulations are gonna be, you know, the suppliers, and then, obviously, the end consumers are gonna end up burying the cost of these new regulations. And so how expensive is it? You know? Because if this is gonna be something that whether you're making coffee or beef or, you know, Brazil nut oil, whatever it is. Right? Like, if we're gonna have to start having these things, what's the extra cost that people have to think about as a business?
[00:22:44] Unknown:
Well, we're in the we're in the in the ingredients. Right? So our ingredients often get diluted, like, another 10 or 20 times, when they go into a product. Mhmm. So for us, it's about 50¢ per kilo is what that costs.
[00:23:01] Unknown:
K.
[00:23:02] Unknown:
But that price is actually, compensated for because there's much less transportation cost. So to give you an idea, you you have you ever had acai? Have you ever had that, like yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So let's take acai. Right? So acai if you wanna make acai oil, which is super valuable and super great for your skin, Right now, you have to transport a 100 tons of acai to a processing plant in town, but it takes 100 kilos of acai to make 1 kilo of oil. So now instead of transporting a 100 tons, we're only gonna transport 1 ton.
So the savings just from that less trans fewer transport costs is already much more than compensating the extra cost for the traceability. So Right. In our case, we're able due to, like I said, the disintermediation, we're able to compensate for that. Now other industries might not have that. And I do think that paying for traceability is something that consumers are gonna feel good about because you're gonna be able to scan the QR code and see exactly where your, product comes from. Totally. So where is your money going? Like, how are you voting with your wallet? Right?
[00:24:20] Unknown:
Totally. I and I've seen this on, oh, is it Clover Dairy? There's some dairy company that, you know, has, like, pictures of, like, this is farmer John's farm and Sally the cow and whatever. And so they're doing, you know, know your farmer kind of thing because you're produced instead of just here's your blank label and big corporate something. So, you know and I always think about, I grew up, you know, in the seventies and I remember Sally Struthers would be on TV and you would adopt a child in another country and you get to do a pen pal and you would get your monthly letter and whatever. You know, for 30¢ a month, it's a cup of You know, so You know, so that connection though for me as a little girl felt like, yay, I'm having a connection with another human being, and, of course, I'm sure it was just an adult in an office writing the letter, but whatever. I don't care, but hopefully there was something going to these children.
But but now that we've got digital, you know, magic, it's like, oh, we could have something here, like, you know, your QR code or anything. We can say, cool. These are the the actual real farmers and the folks who are in certain economic communities that are, you know, you're supporting directly, and then they can give update. You know? So there's all sorts of fun ways for, like, relationship building, you know, with with the people who are are supplying things
[00:25:46] Unknown:
to us. So are you guys gonna do that? Are we gonna Absolutely. To do that? Yeah. You can do. So Farmer Connect has this option, I think, even to what's they call thank my farmer. So And you can even, like, you know, give them some extra if you like. And, you know, that talks a little bit of what we were talking about, you know, when we met in the lobby and later on as we were hanging out, is we are thinking about a fully transparent value distribution system. So that means that when people that harvest the fruits get paid, we are looking at a digital wallet to be able to do that. When the value comes into the community, we're thinking about using some form of a digital wallet, which could be crypto based. It could be Bitcoin based.
And that would then be distributed from there on out so that we have the transparency, we have the accountability, and, you know, of course, we have the security of value that, you know, that that it doesn't depreciate, you know, by the time they get their money. So 1 of the things we're really looking at here is how do we design or select the right type of wallet. And we're talking to some folks, and we're we're we're test driving in a a little few of them to see which is the best fit. Because an important part when you build up these types of economies in these these communities is that the money goes towards something that helps the community instead of breaks it down, which is why an important part of our work is to have a community development plan in place as well as an investment plan in place so that once people start earning money, nobody has to wonder what to do with the money. Right? Nobody's like, oh, should I buy a car with this, or should I no. It's for the hospital, or it's for the university, or it's for scholarships, or it's for improved medical services, or child care, or elderly care or day care. So all of these things are decided before we even start building the plant.
Right? So that people know where the money is gonna go, and we wanna make sure we can see the money flow, which is why we're looking at digital wallets for value distribution.
[00:27:59] Unknown:
Yeah. It's super important. And I think too, you know, we have to be ultra careful of any kind of digital wallet, crypto, Bitcoin, whatever it is. Obviously, I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner, Maxi, because we do not want anything that's gonna look like airline points that's going to people who are already struggling financially. And, obviously, I think Bitcoin is the ultimate tool for, you know, financial savings, for medium of exchange, etcetera. And so it it's something that I think is gonna be in high demand as we go forward because, you know, think about it. And this was something that I ran into a woman. She has a nonprofit, and I think she has projects in 60 countries.
And and this was, you know, a a few months back in Costa Rica, and she's got a $100, 000, 000 fund and nonprofit, da da da da. And I was just like, well, how are you paying all your people with these, you know, and they're all conservation projects. And I'm like, how are you paying your boots on the ground, people? She's like, oh, yeah. I gotta wire the money to the local people, and then they have to convert it, and it takes 2 weeks, and then we have to pay the exchange fees and blah blah blah blah. And I was just like and and I'm like, well, what about Bitcoin? I'm like, why don't you pay these 60 countries in 1 currency, and then you know? But but it doesn't work if you're just like, yeah. I'm gonna send people Bitcoin. It's like sending again, it's like sending them airline points if they don't know what the heck to do with it and they can't go spend it, and they don't understand that there's, you know, either it's a savings tool or if they wanna use it as a medium of exchange, there needs to be a lot of education.
And when I think what, president Bukele did in, El Salvador, and we'll talk about Tsutaneh and Maya in a minute and about her presidential candidacy, you know, in using Bitcoin. But it was such a bold move that he did. He rolled it out super fast, but there wasn't enough education for all the local people to understand how to use their wallets, what is Bitcoin, can I trust this, is it government, or is it actually something neutral? And so there that was, you know and and his, you know, comment was just, like, I could wait for 2 or 3 years, and it would still roll out clunky because of the conditions of humans in in in that country. And so he was just like, let's just do it. You know? And, again, it's gonna have bumps and wrinkles anywhere you go.
But it's very important because you don't wanna leave you don't wanna leave a sour taste in people's mouth. You don't wanna leave them feeling like they got rug pulled. You don't wanna feel like the you know, it's it's very, very it's it's tender. It's a sensitive thing that I want all of us to understand as Bitcoiners and people who wanna help people with financial empowerment and sovereignty. It's just just because we get it, it's taken years for us to kinda get to a place of, like, okay, now I'm in kindergarten level of Bitcoin understanding versus preschool.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I I feel like it's it's an important thing for us to pay attention to when we get excited about helping people in different areas and then setting up circular economies in those areas where people can, you know, save and spend and safely hold their keys. And I think that's another issue that people run into because they're just like, what? Do I have to have a hardware wallet, or do I have it on a piece of paper or what the heck do I do? My dog ate it, you know, the whole thing. So so it's the big bold visions need to have these little micro steps of execution and then, you know, go back and reinforce. Are we sure we got it? Yep. Okay. Now we can go on to the next step and the next layer of of understanding and integration. Meet Premier Bitcoin, are you familiar with them in El Salvador?
[00:31:49] Unknown:
Yeah. I know. And well, I know what happened there. Like, I mean, I I haven't been,
[00:31:53] Unknown:
but I know that what President Bukele did. Okay. So there's an org there's a nonprofit called Me Premier Bitcoin, my first Bitcoin. And so they created the Bitcoin diploma, and so it's a it's a 10 week course. It's fabulous. And you probably I wanna hook you up with John and those guys because they're amazing. But there's they're building nodes all over the world. And so the whole intention is, you know, teaching all these folks, whether you're a business or a student, how to use Bitcoin with this Bitcoin diploma and then, you know Yeah. Setting people off, you know, to create the circular economy. And so they're part of Bitcoin Beach, which was you know, they helped to build that in El Salvador and Al Zante.
But now they're going global, and they wanna make sure people are not falling through the cracks and just kind of like, okay. What do I do? So they're a wonderful, wonderful organization. I'll I'll definitely put you in touch with John. Yeah.
[00:32:47] Unknown:
And those guys. What you said is right, Val. I mean, to us, it's not, about, that that has to be Bitcoin necessarily or or or it has to be crypto based, but it does have to be transparent and traceable. And it has to be something that is also easy for people to understand and use and also exit the system. Right? So, for example, we talk about on and off ramps, but in very practical terms, you know, let's say I'm working with community and everybody in the community is in. Right? But if they can't go outside the community to buy, I don't know, fuel for their car or to pay school fees or book fees in town, then that doesn't work. That's why, for example, in Brazil, where we're also working, we're really excited because they've got PIX. Right? So in in Brazil, PIX is this digital wallet that just about everybody in the country has. It's really quite amazing.
And so what we were what we're looking at is having a system where it might be I don't know. Maybe it's it's it's lightning or or USDT or Bitcoin or whatever it may be that can go in and out of PIX so that people have the local currency available at any time. So this is 1 wallet that we're looking at, FETI, and they are looking to integrate with, this other Brazilian, trend like, connector system that can then work to PIX. So as you can tell, there's still a lot of questions around Yeah. Like, how would you do the value distribution? But 1 thing's for sure, I'm not sending bags of cash.
Right? I mean, I've I've gone through that process in the past when we were working in in this 1 village, and that is not a good that is just not it just does not work. So we're really, hightailing it to find the right solution, and we're definitely not gonna overcomplicate it by, you know, choosing for something that people don't understand. Yeah. And we why I like the solution in Brazil that they have PIX, because PIX is something that just about every person in Brazil has that on their phone, and, you know, they can just do transactions.
[00:35:03] Unknown:
What are people using now in in Suriname? Like, what are they using on their phone? If I need do do they have PayPal or anything like that? Like, how does anybody have anything?
[00:35:15] Unknown:
Suriname is, we we've got a long way to go. So we've got 1 bank that has a digital wallet. It's not it doesn't interface with other banks. It's quite it's a tough 1. So in Suriname, you know, we again, we're really keen on finding the right solution, but we're not there yet. So in Brazil, it's probably gonna be quite a bit easier, for us to digitize the value distribution. But here in Suriname, it's it's we haven't found, that that solution quite yet because this is a cash based economy.
[00:35:50] Unknown:
It's a cash based economy. Okay. So in Suriname, you've got a potential presidential candidate who's a Bitcoiner and she's going to be a candidate, Maya Marbo, who you introduced me to. Now I'm, like, seeing her everywhere. I'm like, how did I not know this woman? So, she's gonna be on the show next week. We had to reschedule her. She had a last minute thing last week or 2 ago. But, you know, what do you think about nation state adoption inside of Suriname?
[00:36:19] Unknown:
So, I personally think that it's important to to have it be, parallel. Right? So Mhmm. The idea of let's replace,
[00:36:30] Unknown:
that's a tough 1. That's a tough 1 for now. Yeah. Yeah. But making it recognizable currency
[00:36:36] Unknown:
I mean, in Suriname, we already used 3 currencies. We use the Surinamese dollar. We use the US dollar. We use the euro. So everybody's got, like, 3 different accounts, and we're all walking around with all this money. And everybody's constantly talking about the exchange rate because we've got, like, 20% devaluation 1 year combined with 60% inflation. So everybody here is like a macroeconomist. Right? Because the the the the value of our currency is constantly going up and down. So having something that's more stable and that's actually appreciating over time, that's really that's really appealing to me.
Right? And I, for example, can't wait for Surnama to catch up that I can just use my Apple Pay or just use regular just regular digital payment systems. But right here, I think that if we were to come to a position where we can introduce that as, you know, as acceptable currency, I think it would be a revolution. I think you'd see a lot of people moving into that very quickly, and I think it would give solace. Because 1 of the biggest issues we've had over the past 30 or so years in tsunami is that our currency keeps, keeps losing its value, in in huge at a huge pace.
[00:37:59] Unknown:
And you said 60% inflation? Oh, yeah. 60.
[00:38:04] Unknown:
60. That's right. We've been dealing with 50 60% inflation annually for the past 4 or 5 years now. It is it is not easy. Wow. And so you've got the inflation part, and then you've got the strict devaluation part, which they're really linked because we're a very small economy, only 600, 000 people, and we don't use that much. So having our own currency, which is, you know, a function of, you know, supply and demand, Not sure how smart that is, to be honest, but that's where we are. And what we've seen happen is from over past 3 years, I think it used to be like like, 8 SRD, Surinamese dollars, for 1 dollar for 1 US dollar, and now it's 32 Surinamese dollars for 1 US dollar.
Wow. 4 years' time. So
[00:39:06] Unknown:
it's tough. Obviously makes trade very difficult, you know, cross border, etcetera. And so and this is, again, this is where Bitcoin, like everything in Bitcoin prices, depreciates. If you're comparing it to the fiat system, whether it's the dollars or, you know, your local currency, everything seems to look more expensive. But, actually, if you're pricing everything in satoshis and Bitcoin in units of Bitcoin, things look more affordable. And so this is something that's, you know, obviously a trend in Bitcoin and it continues to to happen and I think it's gonna continue until 21/40.
Who knows what's gonna happen? We're not gonna be here to see that. But this is something that I think is really, really sad, obviously, you know, and it's just like the the the everyday people in any of these countries that are Fiat based, which obviously all of them are, we don't have a choice. Like, we have to, you know, do this, you know, but now we have Bitcoin, which does give us this choice. And so in in what you were saying earlier, John, you know, you're like, oh, we need to have this off ramp so they can go do this other, you know, transactions.
Obviously, when we start thinking in terms of, you know, the big, broad outside world, right, you know, we're gonna have to transact in whatever the currencies are that all of these other suppliers are doing. But once we start creating a local economy that is Bitcoin based and everything's priced in sats, you don't want to get you don't wanna trade your Bitcoin for local currency. You wanna keep it, and then you you and I send each other Bitcoin instead of me sending you, you know, dollars or whatever. And so it will take obviously years for these types of, you know, local economies to start getting more robust and and, user friendly.
[00:40:57] Unknown:
So in that, I personally think choice is important. Right? I think you it needs to be something people opt into. Yeah. Choose to do as opposed to trying to force it down people's throats or anything like that. So I absolutely believe in a gradual adoption, and I I, for 1, would think that if I look at, for example, my grandmother, you know, she was married to my my grandfather, who was a hugely successful project developer in Suriname. And when 1 of the first big crashes came, she just about lost everything. Like, she had her home, move in with 1 of her kids.
I mean, it was no joke. You know? I mean, people lose their entire life savings, in these types of unstable currency based economies. You know, I've seen it in my family. You know, we've, we've lost a lot of our savings, twice. You know, you you lose it, you build it back up. You lose it again, you build it back up. So I think in a country like Sudinama, the idea of a stable an actually stable currency or coin, I think people would embrace it. But you don't wanna make it forced. Right? So that's why I say, you really certainly, when you start, you wanna make sure you have adequate on and off ramps that are easy to make adoption easy. And I think then gradually, you'll see people say, well, hold on.
I'm gonna do business with somebody who does accept, you know, payment in in the currency that I prefer because it holds value. Mhmm.
[00:42:34] Unknown:
Does does do you guys have strike? Are you able do you know what strike is? We don't have we have nothing over here. Like Okay. I just I know Jack Mallers, it's his company, and so it does you know, it'll do fiat and it'll do Bitcoin and on Lightning and and on chain. So I'm just curious. You know, there's diff I don't know all the tools that are available in every single country. We're working on all those things to see. Are you familiar with BTC Maps? No, I'm not. So BTC Maps is Nathan's project, and it's got all the you know, everywhere in the world that's you know, where are the local, businesses that accept Bitcoin, and then it's also got, like, these circular economies and the meetups and all that kind of stuff. So it's what we understand obviously is each country has different laws and jurisdictions and what, you know, what tools we're allowed to use. We've seen, unfortunately, this last month, huge attack on privacy, and financial rights and privacy. I've got, a rock star dev coming up here in half an hour to do an interview, but, you know, certain tools and wallets are, you know, leaving the United States because of our laws that are starting to crack down on privacy, you know, because they want everything to be KYC and AML, know your customer and anti money laundering.
And they're really, really attacking the individual's right to hold their own wealth, you know, privately. And and I think that's just it's so sad because we're getting closer to CBDCs, you know, the central bank digital currencies, which are, in my opinion, simply surveillance coins and opportunities for the government to control your behavior, you know, and say, oh, you had too many miles on your car today. You don't get to go buy hamburgers this week because it's carbon intensive or whatever. And they're gonna start doing that. Mark my it's already happening. And so the more that we can think about freedom technologies and technologies, you know, that help protect the individuals, it's gonna be very, very important. But but, again, each country is gonna have its own set of, like, what's allowed, what's not allowed, you know, and and most of us are not, you know, undercover, you know, cryptographers and so we need something that's got simple UI and UX.
It's gotta be easy. Nobody like, most people on planet Earth could give a shit about how the Swift network works. They just care that, like, when I swipe my credit card or my debit card that I get to get my Starbucks cup of coffee. Nobody cares. They just wanna get on with their day, you know? And that's I think that applies to Bitcoin as well. And and so the easier that we can make it for people to utilize and understand, it's very, very important. And so do you have fellow Bitcoiners in in your community that you're you're hanging with?
[00:45:33] Unknown:
Absolutely. Like you like you said, Maya, is actually, like, 1 of the 1 of the major Bitcoiners here in Suriname. And, people come by and people visit. You know, I've I've got my friends actually, not many local, but got a couple of friends in the Netherlands. You know?
[00:45:50] Unknown:
But here in Suriname, it's it's just not that many. You know? Do people understand, like, in the communities that you're serving and the folks that that you're working with in these, on the farms, do they know about Bitcoin and crypto and digital payments, or did they understand any of this yet? In Brazil,
[00:46:09] Unknown:
yes. Yes. Here, no. Because in Brazil, PIX has been around for a while. Uh-huh. So the idea that you hold a wallet on your phone and you can, you know, do deals amongst 1 another and it it kind of trans transfers instantly, they're very familiar with that concept. Okay. So for them, it's much easier than for the people here in Suriname, for example. Right? So, I mean, it's it's gonna it it's gonna take a bit. It's gonna take a while. It's gonna take some some significant education and some significant coaching, to get people to that point. And, there there might there will probably be a world where, certainly, in tsunami, as we start working with these communities, we are going to have to use the banking networks, to begin with. For example, it's it sounds crazy.
But for example, for for a couple of samples, I've had to buy roughly 2, 000 kilos of of nuts from 1 of the villages here in Suriname. Mhmm. And I am having to, just today, have a bag, like, kind of like the way drug dealers have it. Right? Like, this bag full of bundles of cash that that it's I mean, I I was way I was like, Jesus. This is like this is huge. And, you know, it's not that it's that much money, but because our currency is so is so weak, you know, it's like you've got this this huge amount of money, and now we're we're making envelopes for all the women. Like, you know, Daisy brought this many nuts, and she's getting this envelope. And now we're having to find a safe place to meet tomorrow so that we can give everybody without us being robbed or shot because it's been and then we're hoping they won't get robbed on the way to their homes. And, you know, it's but that's where we are. You know? I mean, that's where we are right now in tsunami. We are in a place where, you know, a lot of people are unbanked and unbankable because of the agency you just described. Right? So a lot of people that are just hardworking folks can't even get bank accounts.
[00:48:18] Unknown:
And what's the limitation for them getting a bank account?
[00:48:22] Unknown:
Oh, well, for example, first, for an account, you need to, let's say, even have gainful employment. Like, what's gainful employment if you live in the forest? Right? There's no companies. So then a lot of them can't get a letter because their work is taking care of their family. It's fishing. It's planting. It's hunting. Does that mean there's no value? No. That's that's not what it means. I mean and then they sell some of the some of those things or services, so they get money. But then because they don't have they don't they're not working for, you know, a formal employer, They can't get the documentation they need to go and open a bank account. So they have to walk around with the money, and then maybe they get robbed or they lose it or whatnot.
[00:49:02] Unknown:
So so so you have to have gainful employment just to open up a bank account. You can't just say, grandma gave me $50 for my birthday. I wanna go open up a bank account and give it to you. You have to have a letter of employment. Wow.
[00:49:18] Unknown:
That's crazy. It is it it gets crazy over here, Valerie. Ben and so the banking system here is challenged, which is why I said when we're building this, and we're gonna build a, you know, you know, 100 of 1, 000, 000 of 1, 000, 000 of dollar company, I don't want all that money to be going into this banking system that I think is defunct. Right? I want so even though it's gonna be hard, we're gonna do it. Like, we're gonna find the right system. It's gonna be, you know, configurable in the language that the people speak. And these community members are you know, they might not be as educated as some of the folks you know, but that doesn't mean they're less intelligent. And they are whip smart because if they can survive in these jungles, believe me, they know how to handle a wallet. And most most of them have, like, Facebook accounts, and they have WhatsApp, and they have Internet. So we've Do most people have a phone? Do most folks have a phone? Suriname has 1 of the highest phone penetrations, like, in the world. Like, we have, like, 1.7 phones per person or something.
Wow. Yeah. Like, Facebook accounts. So so people are familiar with a lot of the building blocks. Right? So they all have not all, but many of them have Internet. Many of them have been working with Facebook communities and WhatsApp for a very long time now. So I don't see this being a multiyear process for them to transition to a wallet. Mhmm. Will that mean that they understand all the all the building blocks of, you know, like, units of transfer, whether or not we're using Lightning or Tether or Bitcoin or whatever? Maybe not. Right? Most likely not.
But it could still be a wallet system that gives them stability and exchangeability together with the traceability and the transparency.
[00:51:08] Unknown:
Right? Well and this is this is a point I wanna share or or just kinda pick apart. We've only got about 7 more minutes here, but this is something that, you know, I've talked with Troy Cross and some other people who are in the environmental space who are geniuses, you know, because we were talking about this with the supply chain and with the traceability. Does it need to be on the same blockchain as the monetary units? It does not. And and and that's the important part that I think we need to always, you know, go deeper and understand because this is where a lot of the marketers of the crypto, and they go, look. We're gonna have, you know, panda bear token or whatever and use our, you know, Brazil nut tokens, da da da da da.
It's like, do you you don't need to have both of the the data stored plus the unit of, you know, the the monetary part on the same thing. And so this is why, again, Bitcoin as the monetary layer, and then if you do need that traceability, you can have it, of course, in these robust other blockchains. But, that's to me something that's very important, I think, that we need to keep Yep. Having conversations about with people so that we're not accidentally, again, giving people because we got marketed to, you know, like, use my blockchain, and, oh, by the way, it's got this great token, and then you send it over to all of these wonderful farmers in in Suriname, and then they can't do anything with it because nobody wants panda bear tokens or whatever.
You know? And so so this is why I think we need to keep bringing people together to understand how does how do we solve both of these problems. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be on the same thing.
[00:52:54] Unknown:
Yep. Yep. So Right. So I'm and, I mean, I think the the well, first off, the traceability definitely doesn't need that. What I do think you need is you do need interface, and you need feedback. So if in the chain, we know like, if in the farmer connect system, we know that, you know, farmer Joe brought 50 kilos. Mhmm. And we need to make sure that that 50 kilos and the monetary value that that represents does get paid and that it's reported back because he actually received it. Right? Now whether or not that is then an interface to another wallet, that has, again, not you know?
I mean, I love the Bitcoin vision, but I'm not saying that it has to be Bitcoin. Right? It has to be something that can work for people. And, again, whether or not that's that's that's some other type of stable coin or or whatever, it It has to be something that they can use and that for the near term at least or maybe the midterm, that they can step out of without losing value. They need to be able to exit the ecosystem without
[00:54:00] Unknown:
they they can't feel trapped. You know? Like, you don't want people to feel trapped. No. Never. And you don't want them to feel like, oh, gosh. I'm subject to this crazy volatility if they wanna get out right away and have something more stable, you know, in their eyes. Yeah. It's very, very important. And so this is like I said, this is a delicate situation to navigate with, you know, communities particularly that are already vulnerable. Absolutely.
[00:54:28] Unknown:
Absolutely. So that's why I'm saying, like, for now, I'm walking around with bags of cash.
[00:54:35] Unknown:
Yeah, dude. We we gotta get that. No. No more bags of cash. We gotta help you walk around with things that are more transportable and durable still. I wanna put you in touch with, do you know Carol Souza from Area Bitcoin in Brazil? Have you heard of her? She's got so I don't know. She's gonna be on the summit. Yeah. And I'm gonna plug the summit in a second, but, I think they've got, like, over a 100, 000 folks in their community, but they're educators and they help educate Brazil about Bitcoin, and they've got, like, killer. They might be an interesting
[00:55:09] Unknown:
Oh, I'm I'm going to Brazil on Saturday. Oh. If if she's in Sao Paulo or Brasilia,
[00:55:15] Unknown:
you know, we could we could connect because I'm going Oh my god. Okay. I'm gonna here's my sticky notes. I gotta, like, write my note to self, Carol plus John. I'm gonna connect you guys. Right. Yeah. She's gonna actually be I'm gonna plug this super quick. Where are we? Do we have it? I don't even know. Peaceful money, peaceful world. I don't know where the heck I put it. Bitcoin oh, here we go. Bitcoin for p I have so many little subtitles. So next, next Saturday, we're doing we're doing the creator summit, and it's a virtual summit. And so the whole point is we're gonna have over 40 speakers, and panelists talking about how to utilize Bitcoin if you're a creator. So it doesn't matter if you're, you know, an artist, a podcaster, a musician, a documentarian, a writer, whatever, an educator.
We wanna bring different people together to help them understand how Bitcoin can help them grow their community, how to store Bitcoin safely, how to have proper messaging for your, you know, unique, customer avatars and audience and whatnot, and how do you get sponsorship, how do you you know, all that kind of stuff. But Carol is gonna be presenting on, community building and education. And so I'd love to put you guys in touch. And she's in touch. Yeah. She's amazing. I met I got to meet her in person finally in Madeira where we were at Bitcoin Atlantis, which was super cool.
But, yeah, for those of you listening, on the podcast, you can go to bitcoinforpeace.orgforward/summit and get registered, and it's all peer peer to peer, value for value, so it's all donation based. So this isn't like some big giant moneymaker, but we need to put our money where our mouth is or our SATs where our mouth is. And, yeah, it's gonna be really, really cool, but it's on it's gonna be probably gearing up to be almost an 8 hour day, like, of programming and awesome people and presentations and hands on workshops and q and a from the audience, and then we'll have recordings. So it's gonna be really, really, really cool. I'm excited.
But, John okay. So where can everybody find you? I will tell everybody what's up. Yeah.
[00:57:29] Unknown:
Dot Earth. You know? Dot Earth. Find us right there, and and reach out. Of course, you know, we're on LinkedIn and all that stuff. So you can find us there as well. You could also find me at johng.earth, you know, if if people wanna reach out to me personally. Okay. Ong.earth.
[00:57:49] Unknown:
Yeah. I'm gonna put that here, and I'm gonna added that. Yeah. No. It's all good. That's a good 1. You got johng.earth, dude. That's amazing.
[00:57:58] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:59] Unknown:
Look at that. K. You got bobbyotata.earth. I know. I I need more space there. It's still not Oh. It's like it looks so Where is it? Through that. So we're getting through that. Get rid of that valve. That looks stupid. Oh, here. Look. Here. Look at this. Watch. I'll do it this way. Let's let's see what you got. So
[00:58:18] Unknown:
yay. John g. Alright. There you go.
[00:58:24] Unknown:
No. But, dude, you're amazing, and I'm so glad I met you. And and I love what you're up to, and I know you're just getting started. And this is seriously a very, very important project. And it seems like since you're so systems oriented, you know, and you it seems like you wanna be building this as a template and a model for other communities to integrate. It's gonna be great to see, you know, your progress. I'd love to have you back on, you know, as you're making some some,
[00:58:49] Unknown:
some road road marks or what my brain's not working right now. You know, when you make milestones, mile. I know it's something with the road and mile. Milestones, There you go. I mean, this is gonna happen. You know, this is gonna happen. You know, it might take a bit longer than I thought because, you know, you gotta you gotta do what you gotta do, but this is gonna happen. It's the right thing to do. Value needs to stay with the communities. We need to say it's for us, so this is gonna happen.
[00:59:14] Unknown:
You know? And and I love what you said, John, too. Just it's like people don't understand. It's like, how do you make the forest worth more alive than dead? You know? And I think people really need to start shifting gears and because we're in such a short term, like, what's the next quarterly report look like for investors. Yep. We have to get into, you know, a 30, 50, 100 year plan. You know? If you have kids, if you have grandkids, if you think you want earth to be here, like, you can't just look at what are my quarterlies look like. You know? And so shifting investor sentiment and shifting, you know, the way that we operate, I think, is gonna be ultra important. And so it'd be nice if we did it voluntarily, but it seems like we're gonna have to be, you know, combining it with some legislation around the world, like what the EU is doing with the supply chain. So that's cool.
[01:00:06] Unknown:
Well, I think it's you know? And, this I don't know if you've read Ministry For the Future, but it's really about the carrot and the stick. Right? It's about having both. It's about having countries' regulator having the stick, and it's about us consumers offering the carrot by saying, hey. We are willing to pay for this. We are willing to pay for something that's good for the planet. And a lot of research is already showing that people are willing to pay a little bit more, maybe not a whole lot more, but a little bit more if they know it's it's good for the planet. So Yeah. You know, let's make sure that manufacturers hear it and companies hear it, and let's vote with our wallets, as they say. Right? Let's let's make these types of enterprises that are aligned with nature and aligned with human rights.
Let's make sure that they get that they get our business.
[01:00:57] Unknown:
Right? Totally. Yeah. It's so important. And I think the more that we, you know, keep fine tuning our messaging and our ability to connect with the audiences and help them understand, you know, this choice goes over here, and it's gonna lead to this road. If you make this choice, it might be a little bit more inconvenient or difficult or tiny bit more expensive, but it's gonna lead over here. And then you can show, obviously, like, path of death and destruction Yeah. And sadness or path of prosperity and peace and love. Right. Yeah. And but, again, it's just like everybody consumes information and synthesizes it differently. So it's so important that we all understand our voices matter and the ways that we are sharing things matter. And then, you know, how can we, you know, get these messages out to the right audiences, you know, in a timely way.
So, yeah, you're awesome, John. I love you and, and hope that are you gonna be going to any conferences soon? You what do you have coming up around the corner? Anything Well, I got like I said, I'm I'm heading to Brazil to the,
[01:02:03] Unknown:
capital conversions, capital for climate conference Okay. Hook up with with some investors and and Sao Paulo. And after that, I'll be home for as long as I can until I have to go back out to Europe where I'm gonna spend some time in the summer, taking my my son to university and then getting him set up there. So I don't know what all is happening in in in Europe. I'll be in Amsterdam. So probably, I'll be there the whole month of September and probably see what's what's cooking.
[01:02:34] Unknown:
Right on. Very cool. Well, hopefully, I'll get to see you in person again at some point somewhere on planet, our beautiful planet Earth. But I'll make sure I get you in touch with, with Carol. I I be at the NYC
[01:02:46] Unknown:
Summit sunset event, on June 9th in case you're you're hanging out in New York anytime.
[01:02:53] Unknown:
Am I I'm not planning on New York right now, but you never know. Anything happens in this world of ours. So
[01:02:59] Unknown:
So it is.
[01:03:00] Unknown:
Alright. Awesome, John. Well, thanks again, and, I'm so excited for the work that you're doing. And, if there's anything I can ever do to help, always let me know. And, everybody else, thanks for tuning in to Bitcoin for Peace. This is DJ Valerie Beloved, and we'll talk to you guys next time. And make sure you guys go follow John and check out, biotara.earthandjohng.earth. And, we'll talk to y'all soon. Yay.
Hey, guys. If you care about mother nature and conserving the forest and the rainforest, My next guest, John Godchalk, is somebody who is doing that, and he's also empowering the local communities with a way to support themselves while keeping the forest alive. And 1 thing I really loved about this interview is he was talking about how to create the forest, you know, to be more profitable alive than dead. And this is super exciting, and he's also looking at how Bitcoin can empower these local communities and get their products to market faster and getting them a currency that is not subject to 60% a year inflation, which is what this country has been going through. So please tune in and you Hey. Aloha. Get ready for an epic episode. And if you love it, please share it. You know why? Because you got the love. Enjoy, my friends.
Hey. Aloha, love tribe. Welcome to Bitcoin for Peace. This is DJ Valerie Belove. I have somebody here who I had the privilege of seeing 1 of his presentations on Summit at Sea, and then we happened to meet in, the the lobby of a hotel afterwards. And we're like, hey. I I you look familiar. This is John Godczuk, CEO and cofounder of BIOTARO. Welcome. Welcome. Thanks for having me, Valerie. Good to be here. Heck, yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy to see you. It's been about a month since we met. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a little bit more. I think it was, like, the beginning of April, when we had Summit at Sea. So tell everybody, who is John and and why were we at Summit at Sea? Let's talk about this.
[00:02:09] Unknown:
Alright. Well, let me let me just introduce myself a little bit. So, I live in Suriname, which just happens to be the most forested country on Earth. It's 1 of only 2 carbon negative countries, and I have made a decision to keep it that way. That's right. So our forests are so vast that they absorb more carbon than we as a population in tsunami generate. So we are carbon negative.
[00:02:37] Unknown:
Wow. Is there any other countries that are carbon negative?
[00:02:40] Unknown:
Yeah. Bhutan. Bhutan is carbon negative. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. And, yeah, so I I, you know, know, I lived in a lot of different or let's not say a lot. A couple of different countries, and then I moved back home in 2, 008. And very shortly after that, I discovered that climate change is kinda gonna wipe out my city, kinda like Tuvalu and other places. Mhmm. It's gonna become virtually unlivable. And, you know, I just I just couldn't stand by. I said, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna do something about this. So I went on this mission that I'm still on today, build resilience for my country and for the communities, in Suriname.
But a lot of that has to do with saving the forest, to be honest. Because if we don't save the forests, there's really not much that's gonna keep us going on this entire planet. Right? So that really brought me to this mission where I wanna be able to tell my kids when they ask me, you know, like, 50 years from now, and they say, hey, dad. What were you doing when, you know, the forests were burning and the city was drowning? I wanna be able to say I was fighting for the forest. I was fighting kids to have a life, and that's what I've been doing ever since. So I've been on this journey for about 13 years now, going on 14, and I was at at summit on the boat, telling the story and inviting people in on the journey, people like you, Val, that, you know, I I wanted to just join me on this on this journey because, you know, it's it's a big task, and I definitely need all the help I can get, to get where we need to be.
[00:04:28] Unknown:
You do. And and I so applaud your work. And you used to be the executive director of Conservation International. Right? Yeah. And so you've obviously been passionate about being The Lorax. Remember The Lorax? Like, you're through the trees.
[00:04:43] Unknown:
Right. That's right. That's my handle, and that's how I like to think of myself. You know? I That's awesome. You think about the story of Dolorax, though. Right? I know, you know, last time you saw it or read it, but it's it's so much it's so recognizable. Right? It's what we see happening around us. Yeah. People feel that they need all these things, and that drives this this extractive and and and, like, the destructive economy that we've built as mankind. And, you know, if we're we're closely chopping down the last 1 of those trees, so to speak. Right?
[00:05:17] Unknown:
Yeah. And it's so sad. Like and I I think, you know, for all of us out there, like, we're so in we're in these bubbles. Right? We live in bubbles, and we don't know what's happening if we don't really are able to touch and feel it, and even multimedia is important, you know, but it still doesn't show truly what the devastation is. I mean, we all know how long it takes to grow a tree and it only takes moments to chop down that life, you know, and for what? That's the question, you know. And so, I think it's very important that we keep these conversations going and, you know, you're talking about resilience. And let so let's talk about where you're located and why you know, what the project is that you're working on right now with BIOTARRA.
You said BIOTARA because there's obviously Yeah. I'm I'm saying it like a a girl from Detroit here. So but, let's talk about this and, like, how how is this project gonna be, you know, supporting the local communities? How is it supporting the forest? And how is Bitcoin possibly going to be integrated into this solution?
[00:06:24] Unknown:
Yeah. Okay. So let me, you know, let me say right up front, I'm an economist, so, you know, I do look at things through a certain lens. Right? I look at human behavior, certain lens, and human decision making, specifically, which is not to say that I believe in homoeconomicus or anything like that. Right? I think that concept's outdated. Mhmm. But I do fundamentally believe that if we wanna save our forests, if we wanna keep trees standing, that we need to find ways for those trees and forests to be worth more alive than dead. Yeah. And that's not a hypothetical worth more. It's not a soft, mushy worth more. It's worth more in generative capacity, in regenerative capacity for people to make a living, to make a better life for themselves.
And that means jobs. It's that simple. People need to be able to create jobs using living forests instead of dead forests. They need to be able to build a better future for their children with living trees instead of dead trees. Right? So what what I learned during this wonderful time I had at Conservation International, I learned that when you're able to work with a community to create entrepreneurship and to enable economic agency, wonderful things happen. They get a sense of ownership. And in 1 specific case, I was, you know, again, really, really privileged, to work with this 1 community, of the the Tareno, indigenous people, and they asked me for help. They said, John, we wanna protect our forest. What our youth are leaving, we need jobs, we need income. And I said, how can I help? And they said, we've got all these trees, but no way to make a living.
So I said, okay. Let's let's you know, let's unpack this. Let's figure out how to make this happen. And we we work together with students from UC Berkeley, and we did all this research. And it turns out that these Brazil nut trees they have make wonderful oil wonderful oil for the cosmetics industries. And if you can harness the power and the economic value of that oil for the community as opposed to for middlemen, if you can do that, then these people can actually be there and protect the forest. So as I was kind of, you know, nearing the end of my time at CI, I said, you know, I wanna take that concept times a 100.
I wanna take that concept and make it available to any community who wants to have that kind of life. So that's what BIOTARRA is about. BIOTARRA is about enabling communities that wish to have enterprise and that wish to develop supply chains for the cosmetics industries with oils and butters and giving them the tools they need, giving them the resources in the form of education and training, technology like traceability software and certification, ensuring that they have access to finance so that they can own their own factories and processing plants, and making sure they get customers, all of this within the commercially viable model.
So what we do is not NGO work. We actually do business with these communities on an equal footing. We say we are your partner. We are your service partner, where we offer the service of access to finance, access to technology, and access to markets. And should you wish to engage in this, then we will do everything within our power to make sure that every kilogram of oil or butter is sold even before it's produced. And that's our commitment. And with that, we then ensure that there's conservation taking place, restoration taking place, and that the money that comes in actually goes towards the benefit of the entire community.
[00:10:38] Unknown:
I love this.
[00:10:39] Unknown:
Keep going. Go ahead. Go No. That's that's really it. Well, I mean, that's what we do. You know? And it's, you know, it's multifaceted. It gets complex, but it's also super simple. There are trees there. Those trees have fruits. Those fruits have value. The people that live there deserve to benefit from that value. Let's make sure those people benefit, and those people will steward the forests. That's really that's really the equation.
[00:11:05] Unknown:
And so how's it been going so far with the the the project? How are the folks in the communities responding? Are they feeling like, yay, finally not handouts, and now I get to have a hand, You know? I get to learn how to fish instead of you just giving me the fish. Right?
[00:11:18] Unknown:
The the communities are loving it. Right? So right now, we're working with, 2 communities in Suriname. We've got, 1 in in Brazil with whom we've already signed a regeneration pact, and we've got another 1 in Brazil that's lined up, eager to to engage. So the communities are all in. What's been interesting to me on this journey is that, apparently, investors are less in. Right? So, apparently, investors, as much as they say that they wanna save the forests, they, I guess, they wanna see revenue. Right? So so then and then I'm gonna be really honest there. Like, I'm I'm meet I'm talking to all these so called impact investors, and they're like, oh, it's amazing.
But let me see some revenue first. Like, come back when you've got a 100 k in revenue. Come back when you've got a a 1, 000, 000 in revenue, you know, which to me is interesting. Right? Because we're trying to save the world, I think, some of us at least, and a lot of, you know, impact investors are saying not under ambitions. Maybe that's the way of it. Right? They really wanna see you have all this revenue, which is weird because I'm actually trying to build a system. Like, I'm saying, let's get the foundations right. Let's get the formula right, and then let's start selling because we know the market's there. This is a $1, 000, 000, 000 I mean, listen, cosmetics?
What? We're gonna stop using cosmetics tomorrow? I don't think so. And we know people love nature based cosmetics, and that's growing. So we know it's a growing market. We know the market's there. So having investors kind of, you know, coming back all the time and saying, yeah, but let's see you have revenue first. I'm doing what I can to make that happen, so now I'm I'm kind of making oils and butters out of my garage. But to me, that's not really how we're gonna get things going. To me, if you wanna build these kinds of regenerative systems, you need to invest in the blueprint. You need to invest in the social safe guard, in the in the technology, and then you start really getting out there and and and going to market. That's my perception. But, you know, it's people people you know, they're they're owners of their own money, of course. So if I want them to invest, I'm gonna have to dance to their tune, to some extent. So that's that's what I'm out here doing. I'm, you know, hustling to get customers, making oil and butters out of my out of my garage, while at the same time, developing the technology for traceability that we need, and building the social safeguards.
[00:13:58] Unknown:
And is traceability like, let's talk about that. Because for folks who don't really know what that is, like, can you help people understand why traceability is important and what you see? Obviously, we talked about some regulation, that is gonna be requiring certain imports in different countries to have certain levels of of clean,
[00:14:16] Unknown:
supplies in their supply chain. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so 1 of the main drivers to our analysis, is the EU deforestation regulation. So it's this rule that the EU made, and it's going into into effect effect at the end of this year, that certain commodities need to be proven to come from a non deforested area. So it's not enough to say it comes from a non deforested area. You have to show on the map. So you need systems and software that tell you exactly where did you pick this fruit, where did you take that fruit, What did you do with the fruit? How did it turn into oil?
What airplane did you put it on or what boat? You need to show every single step of the way. So we're working with, 1 of the industry leaders on that called Farmer Connect. Okay. They're a blockchain enabled company, that, that uses IBM's, sustainable supply chain traceability solution. And traceability is becoming 1 of the most important differentiators for suppliers of products because consumers wanna know where their products are coming from. So you've got the regulator. Right? The EU is saying, hey. If you wanna keep exporting to us, you're gonna need to prove that this comes from a non deforested area, which is great for us because we're working with communities and we're doing wild harvesting.
So, specifically, we're not creating plantations. We're not cutting down any trees. We are only taking what mother nature is offering, which means regenerative harvesting of what's already there in terms of gathering fruits and nuts. So that's a bonus for us. So the fact that we are providing that type of product is a real boon for us. Okay? So that's the regulations, and that's for the EU. And it's my understanding that the US will have similar regulations over the next couple of years. And then there's consumers. Right? There's people like you and me. Like, I I for example, I stopped using shaving cream, and I just shave with oil. Like, Brazil nut oil is what I use. Right? Because if if you look at what's in some of these creams, it's not always, you know, it's not always great in terms of pimples.
[00:16:39] Unknown:
But I think, you know, it's I've I've, you know, I've after I became a mom, I got real clear on understanding what is going on my skin, what's going in my hair, all this stuff, and someone was just like, If it's not safe for you to eat, you probably shouldn't put it on your skin. And, you know, and and that's true because we absorb everything. This is our, obviously, our largest organ. And so, you know, as a mom, that was such a huge deal for me, and it's funny. I we may have mentioned this when we we met, but, you know, and this was almost, god, 16, 18, 20 years ago. My daughter's old now. She's 18. Oh my god. I have an 18 year old daughter. She's graduating this weekend.
But I remember at the time, you know, my daughter would go to, you know, Claire's boutique or all these, like, little crap stores in the mall, and her favorite thing was to get, like, these little palettes of makeup. You know? Because she's just like, oh, mommy, I wanna put on colored makeup and da da da. And, of course, I'm looking at the back of the ingredients, and, of course, it's all toxic chemicals from hell. And I'm just like, Oh, my gosh. I don't wanna let her keep putting this stuff on her. And so this, again, this was almost 20 years ago, 18 years ago, and the clean cosmetic industry was just starting to blossom, and, like, Juice Beauty and some of these other companies were starting to just come online. And I'm like, wow, we really need more more more products that are safe, you know, for kids and certainly, obviously, us adults because kids absorb stuff more than we do and it stays in their system longer, so it's much more dangerous and toxic for them to have these these chemicals.
And so I think it's really, really important that we, you know, keep going bit by bit, piece by piece of this of the supply chains and saying, okay. Well, let's get rid of these fake dyes or get rid of these things and so that we can at least not have too many chemicals in our soup. I think environmental working group says we we, you know, are exposed to, you know, a 100 chemicals a day And it's like nobody knows what, you know, people can go do a lab test and go, cool. This chemical is semi neutral, but you don't know what this chemical does when you mix it with all these other 100 chemicals and variables and mix and match, you know, in addition to the food you're consuming and all the other things that are going on. So, I think it's very, very it's important to be as baseline as possible with what we're putting in our body and on our body.
And, you know, a lot of us just buy stuff because it's cheap and that's what's in our budget, You know? And so it's like, how do we shift the mindset of our consumption to a place of, like, well, do I need to have 20 of these products, or do I need to have 1 really good 1? Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I think that's a big deal for us ladies because we like to have choices in all of our things that we like.
[00:19:36] Unknown:
So you know what the thing is, though? And this is maybe, you know, maybe it's it's not true in all cases, but when we look at the supply chain that we're looking to restructure right? Because, really, essentially, what Biotala is saying is we're taking out all these middlemen, and we are enabling the communities to to fulfill all those roles of those middlemen. Right? So we will help them have the presses and the drying machines so they can make it. Now where I'm going with this is that when you allow the value to stay with the communities and you have them do all you know, do depressing, all of a sudden, you can get these products at market rates. So you don't need to get if you buy products that use the BIOTARRA sourcing, the oils and the butters, by using those oils and butters for yourself, you're contributing to, saving the forest, to empowering these communities, to making sure biodiversity is there. All of these great benefits, but it doesn't have to cost more because what we're doing is we're making it simpler. We're going back in time to go forward. Right? Yes. So we are this like, we're, disaggregating?
I'm not sure that's the word. I think it's this disintermediating
[00:21:05] Unknown:
Disintermediating.
[00:21:06] Unknown:
Yeah. Disintermediating this supply chain to make it simpler, more traceable, and healthier. Right?
[00:21:14] Unknown:
So So okay. So let's talk about the so we've got 2, obviously, tools here. We have you know, you were talking about the the the Farmer Connect, the Pharma Connect with Pharma. Pharma. Farmer, not Pharma. No. Right? Farmer. Oh, this is exciting and even better. So the Farmer Connect, and you said that that is a Microsoft blockchain or an IBM blockchain?
[00:21:37] Unknown:
So they use IBM's, blockchain system for for supply chains, but they are their own software companies. So they've got their own layer, and they just write the data to the chain, you know, to make sure that it's immutable. But they have a full system that allows us to track and trace every step of the way, take pictures, you know, geotag, all the different elements you need to be able to interface with the EU's custom systems.
[00:22:06] Unknown:
And so for this, because obviously, a blockchain is big and expensive to maintain versus just a typical database. Right? And so is this simply you know, it obviously costs more money to do this, and it's like all these regulations are gonna be, you know, the suppliers, and then, obviously, the end consumers are gonna end up burying the cost of these new regulations. And so how expensive is it? You know? Because if this is gonna be something that whether you're making coffee or beef or, you know, Brazil nut oil, whatever it is. Right? Like, if we're gonna have to start having these things, what's the extra cost that people have to think about as a business?
[00:22:44] Unknown:
Well, we're in the we're in the in the ingredients. Right? So our ingredients often get diluted, like, another 10 or 20 times, when they go into a product. Mhmm. So for us, it's about 50¢ per kilo is what that costs.
[00:23:01] Unknown:
K.
[00:23:02] Unknown:
But that price is actually, compensated for because there's much less transportation cost. So to give you an idea, you you have you ever had acai? Have you ever had that, like yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So let's take acai. Right? So acai if you wanna make acai oil, which is super valuable and super great for your skin, Right now, you have to transport a 100 tons of acai to a processing plant in town, but it takes 100 kilos of acai to make 1 kilo of oil. So now instead of transporting a 100 tons, we're only gonna transport 1 ton.
So the savings just from that less trans fewer transport costs is already much more than compensating the extra cost for the traceability. So Right. In our case, we're able due to, like I said, the disintermediation, we're able to compensate for that. Now other industries might not have that. And I do think that paying for traceability is something that consumers are gonna feel good about because you're gonna be able to scan the QR code and see exactly where your, product comes from. Totally. So where is your money going? Like, how are you voting with your wallet? Right?
[00:24:20] Unknown:
Totally. I and I've seen this on, oh, is it Clover Dairy? There's some dairy company that, you know, has, like, pictures of, like, this is farmer John's farm and Sally the cow and whatever. And so they're doing, you know, know your farmer kind of thing because you're produced instead of just here's your blank label and big corporate something. So, you know and I always think about, I grew up, you know, in the seventies and I remember Sally Struthers would be on TV and you would adopt a child in another country and you get to do a pen pal and you would get your monthly letter and whatever. You know, for 30¢ a month, it's a cup of You know, so You know, so that connection though for me as a little girl felt like, yay, I'm having a connection with another human being, and, of course, I'm sure it was just an adult in an office writing the letter, but whatever. I don't care, but hopefully there was something going to these children.
But but now that we've got digital, you know, magic, it's like, oh, we could have something here, like, you know, your QR code or anything. We can say, cool. These are the the actual real farmers and the folks who are in certain economic communities that are, you know, you're supporting directly, and then they can give update. You know? So there's all sorts of fun ways for, like, relationship building, you know, with with the people who are are supplying things
[00:25:46] Unknown:
to us. So are you guys gonna do that? Are we gonna Absolutely. To do that? Yeah. You can do. So Farmer Connect has this option, I think, even to what's they call thank my farmer. So And you can even, like, you know, give them some extra if you like. And, you know, that talks a little bit of what we were talking about, you know, when we met in the lobby and later on as we were hanging out, is we are thinking about a fully transparent value distribution system. So that means that when people that harvest the fruits get paid, we are looking at a digital wallet to be able to do that. When the value comes into the community, we're thinking about using some form of a digital wallet, which could be crypto based. It could be Bitcoin based.
And that would then be distributed from there on out so that we have the transparency, we have the accountability, and, you know, of course, we have the security of value that, you know, that that it doesn't depreciate, you know, by the time they get their money. So 1 of the things we're really looking at here is how do we design or select the right type of wallet. And we're talking to some folks, and we're we're we're test driving in a a little few of them to see which is the best fit. Because an important part when you build up these types of economies in these these communities is that the money goes towards something that helps the community instead of breaks it down, which is why an important part of our work is to have a community development plan in place as well as an investment plan in place so that once people start earning money, nobody has to wonder what to do with the money. Right? Nobody's like, oh, should I buy a car with this, or should I no. It's for the hospital, or it's for the university, or it's for scholarships, or it's for improved medical services, or child care, or elderly care or day care. So all of these things are decided before we even start building the plant.
Right? So that people know where the money is gonna go, and we wanna make sure we can see the money flow, which is why we're looking at digital wallets for value distribution.
[00:27:59] Unknown:
Yeah. It's super important. And I think too, you know, we have to be ultra careful of any kind of digital wallet, crypto, Bitcoin, whatever it is. Obviously, I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner, Maxi, because we do not want anything that's gonna look like airline points that's going to people who are already struggling financially. And, obviously, I think Bitcoin is the ultimate tool for, you know, financial savings, for medium of exchange, etcetera. And so it it's something that I think is gonna be in high demand as we go forward because, you know, think about it. And this was something that I ran into a woman. She has a nonprofit, and I think she has projects in 60 countries.
And and this was, you know, a a few months back in Costa Rica, and she's got a $100, 000, 000 fund and nonprofit, da da da da. And I was just like, well, how are you paying all your people with these, you know, and they're all conservation projects. And I'm like, how are you paying your boots on the ground, people? She's like, oh, yeah. I gotta wire the money to the local people, and then they have to convert it, and it takes 2 weeks, and then we have to pay the exchange fees and blah blah blah blah. And I was just like and and I'm like, well, what about Bitcoin? I'm like, why don't you pay these 60 countries in 1 currency, and then you know? But but it doesn't work if you're just like, yeah. I'm gonna send people Bitcoin. It's like sending again, it's like sending them airline points if they don't know what the heck to do with it and they can't go spend it, and they don't understand that there's, you know, either it's a savings tool or if they wanna use it as a medium of exchange, there needs to be a lot of education.
And when I think what, president Bukele did in, El Salvador, and we'll talk about Tsutaneh and Maya in a minute and about her presidential candidacy, you know, in using Bitcoin. But it was such a bold move that he did. He rolled it out super fast, but there wasn't enough education for all the local people to understand how to use their wallets, what is Bitcoin, can I trust this, is it government, or is it actually something neutral? And so there that was, you know and and his, you know, comment was just, like, I could wait for 2 or 3 years, and it would still roll out clunky because of the conditions of humans in in in that country. And so he was just like, let's just do it. You know? And, again, it's gonna have bumps and wrinkles anywhere you go.
But it's very important because you don't wanna leave you don't wanna leave a sour taste in people's mouth. You don't wanna leave them feeling like they got rug pulled. You don't wanna feel like the you know, it's it's very, very it's it's tender. It's a sensitive thing that I want all of us to understand as Bitcoiners and people who wanna help people with financial empowerment and sovereignty. It's just just because we get it, it's taken years for us to kinda get to a place of, like, okay, now I'm in kindergarten level of Bitcoin understanding versus preschool.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I I feel like it's it's an important thing for us to pay attention to when we get excited about helping people in different areas and then setting up circular economies in those areas where people can, you know, save and spend and safely hold their keys. And I think that's another issue that people run into because they're just like, what? Do I have to have a hardware wallet, or do I have it on a piece of paper or what the heck do I do? My dog ate it, you know, the whole thing. So so it's the big bold visions need to have these little micro steps of execution and then, you know, go back and reinforce. Are we sure we got it? Yep. Okay. Now we can go on to the next step and the next layer of of understanding and integration. Meet Premier Bitcoin, are you familiar with them in El Salvador?
[00:31:49] Unknown:
Yeah. I know. And well, I know what happened there. Like, I mean, I I haven't been,
[00:31:53] Unknown:
but I know that what President Bukele did. Okay. So there's an org there's a nonprofit called Me Premier Bitcoin, my first Bitcoin. And so they created the Bitcoin diploma, and so it's a it's a 10 week course. It's fabulous. And you probably I wanna hook you up with John and those guys because they're amazing. But there's they're building nodes all over the world. And so the whole intention is, you know, teaching all these folks, whether you're a business or a student, how to use Bitcoin with this Bitcoin diploma and then, you know Yeah. Setting people off, you know, to create the circular economy. And so they're part of Bitcoin Beach, which was you know, they helped to build that in El Salvador and Al Zante.
But now they're going global, and they wanna make sure people are not falling through the cracks and just kind of like, okay. What do I do? So they're a wonderful, wonderful organization. I'll I'll definitely put you in touch with John. Yeah.
[00:32:47] Unknown:
And those guys. What you said is right, Val. I mean, to us, it's not, about, that that has to be Bitcoin necessarily or or or it has to be crypto based, but it does have to be transparent and traceable. And it has to be something that is also easy for people to understand and use and also exit the system. Right? So, for example, we talk about on and off ramps, but in very practical terms, you know, let's say I'm working with community and everybody in the community is in. Right? But if they can't go outside the community to buy, I don't know, fuel for their car or to pay school fees or book fees in town, then that doesn't work. That's why, for example, in Brazil, where we're also working, we're really excited because they've got PIX. Right? So in in Brazil, PIX is this digital wallet that just about everybody in the country has. It's really quite amazing.
And so what we were what we're looking at is having a system where it might be I don't know. Maybe it's it's it's lightning or or USDT or Bitcoin or whatever it may be that can go in and out of PIX so that people have the local currency available at any time. So this is 1 wallet that we're looking at, FETI, and they are looking to integrate with, this other Brazilian, trend like, connector system that can then work to PIX. So as you can tell, there's still a lot of questions around Yeah. Like, how would you do the value distribution? But 1 thing's for sure, I'm not sending bags of cash.
Right? I mean, I've I've gone through that process in the past when we were working in in this 1 village, and that is not a good that is just not it just does not work. So we're really, hightailing it to find the right solution, and we're definitely not gonna overcomplicate it by, you know, choosing for something that people don't understand. Yeah. And we why I like the solution in Brazil that they have PIX, because PIX is something that just about every person in Brazil has that on their phone, and, you know, they can just do transactions.
[00:35:03] Unknown:
What are people using now in in Suriname? Like, what are they using on their phone? If I need do do they have PayPal or anything like that? Like, how does anybody have anything?
[00:35:15] Unknown:
Suriname is, we we've got a long way to go. So we've got 1 bank that has a digital wallet. It's not it doesn't interface with other banks. It's quite it's a tough 1. So in Suriname, you know, we again, we're really keen on finding the right solution, but we're not there yet. So in Brazil, it's probably gonna be quite a bit easier, for us to digitize the value distribution. But here in Suriname, it's it's we haven't found, that that solution quite yet because this is a cash based economy.
[00:35:50] Unknown:
It's a cash based economy. Okay. So in Suriname, you've got a potential presidential candidate who's a Bitcoiner and she's going to be a candidate, Maya Marbo, who you introduced me to. Now I'm, like, seeing her everywhere. I'm like, how did I not know this woman? So, she's gonna be on the show next week. We had to reschedule her. She had a last minute thing last week or 2 ago. But, you know, what do you think about nation state adoption inside of Suriname?
[00:36:19] Unknown:
So, I personally think that it's important to to have it be, parallel. Right? So Mhmm. The idea of let's replace,
[00:36:30] Unknown:
that's a tough 1. That's a tough 1 for now. Yeah. Yeah. But making it recognizable currency
[00:36:36] Unknown:
I mean, in Suriname, we already used 3 currencies. We use the Surinamese dollar. We use the US dollar. We use the euro. So everybody's got, like, 3 different accounts, and we're all walking around with all this money. And everybody's constantly talking about the exchange rate because we've got, like, 20% devaluation 1 year combined with 60% inflation. So everybody here is like a macroeconomist. Right? Because the the the the value of our currency is constantly going up and down. So having something that's more stable and that's actually appreciating over time, that's really that's really appealing to me.
Right? And I, for example, can't wait for Surnama to catch up that I can just use my Apple Pay or just use regular just regular digital payment systems. But right here, I think that if we were to come to a position where we can introduce that as, you know, as acceptable currency, I think it would be a revolution. I think you'd see a lot of people moving into that very quickly, and I think it would give solace. Because 1 of the biggest issues we've had over the past 30 or so years in tsunami is that our currency keeps, keeps losing its value, in in huge at a huge pace.
[00:37:59] Unknown:
And you said 60% inflation? Oh, yeah. 60.
[00:38:04] Unknown:
60. That's right. We've been dealing with 50 60% inflation annually for the past 4 or 5 years now. It is it is not easy. Wow. And so you've got the inflation part, and then you've got the strict devaluation part, which they're really linked because we're a very small economy, only 600, 000 people, and we don't use that much. So having our own currency, which is, you know, a function of, you know, supply and demand, Not sure how smart that is, to be honest, but that's where we are. And what we've seen happen is from over past 3 years, I think it used to be like like, 8 SRD, Surinamese dollars, for 1 dollar for 1 US dollar, and now it's 32 Surinamese dollars for 1 US dollar.
Wow. 4 years' time. So
[00:39:06] Unknown:
it's tough. Obviously makes trade very difficult, you know, cross border, etcetera. And so and this is, again, this is where Bitcoin, like everything in Bitcoin prices, depreciates. If you're comparing it to the fiat system, whether it's the dollars or, you know, your local currency, everything seems to look more expensive. But, actually, if you're pricing everything in satoshis and Bitcoin in units of Bitcoin, things look more affordable. And so this is something that's, you know, obviously a trend in Bitcoin and it continues to to happen and I think it's gonna continue until 21/40.
Who knows what's gonna happen? We're not gonna be here to see that. But this is something that I think is really, really sad, obviously, you know, and it's just like the the the everyday people in any of these countries that are Fiat based, which obviously all of them are, we don't have a choice. Like, we have to, you know, do this, you know, but now we have Bitcoin, which does give us this choice. And so in in what you were saying earlier, John, you know, you're like, oh, we need to have this off ramp so they can go do this other, you know, transactions.
Obviously, when we start thinking in terms of, you know, the big, broad outside world, right, you know, we're gonna have to transact in whatever the currencies are that all of these other suppliers are doing. But once we start creating a local economy that is Bitcoin based and everything's priced in sats, you don't want to get you don't wanna trade your Bitcoin for local currency. You wanna keep it, and then you you and I send each other Bitcoin instead of me sending you, you know, dollars or whatever. And so it will take obviously years for these types of, you know, local economies to start getting more robust and and, user friendly.
[00:40:57] Unknown:
So in that, I personally think choice is important. Right? I think you it needs to be something people opt into. Yeah. Choose to do as opposed to trying to force it down people's throats or anything like that. So I absolutely believe in a gradual adoption, and I I, for 1, would think that if I look at, for example, my grandmother, you know, she was married to my my grandfather, who was a hugely successful project developer in Suriname. And when 1 of the first big crashes came, she just about lost everything. Like, she had her home, move in with 1 of her kids.
I mean, it was no joke. You know? I mean, people lose their entire life savings, in these types of unstable currency based economies. You know, I've seen it in my family. You know, we've, we've lost a lot of our savings, twice. You know, you you lose it, you build it back up. You lose it again, you build it back up. So I think in a country like Sudinama, the idea of a stable an actually stable currency or coin, I think people would embrace it. But you don't wanna make it forced. Right? So that's why I say, you really certainly, when you start, you wanna make sure you have adequate on and off ramps that are easy to make adoption easy. And I think then gradually, you'll see people say, well, hold on.
I'm gonna do business with somebody who does accept, you know, payment in in the currency that I prefer because it holds value. Mhmm.
[00:42:34] Unknown:
Does does do you guys have strike? Are you able do you know what strike is? We don't have we have nothing over here. Like Okay. I just I know Jack Mallers, it's his company, and so it does you know, it'll do fiat and it'll do Bitcoin and on Lightning and and on chain. So I'm just curious. You know, there's diff I don't know all the tools that are available in every single country. We're working on all those things to see. Are you familiar with BTC Maps? No, I'm not. So BTC Maps is Nathan's project, and it's got all the you know, everywhere in the world that's you know, where are the local, businesses that accept Bitcoin, and then it's also got, like, these circular economies and the meetups and all that kind of stuff. So it's what we understand obviously is each country has different laws and jurisdictions and what, you know, what tools we're allowed to use. We've seen, unfortunately, this last month, huge attack on privacy, and financial rights and privacy. I've got, a rock star dev coming up here in half an hour to do an interview, but, you know, certain tools and wallets are, you know, leaving the United States because of our laws that are starting to crack down on privacy, you know, because they want everything to be KYC and AML, know your customer and anti money laundering.
And they're really, really attacking the individual's right to hold their own wealth, you know, privately. And and I think that's just it's so sad because we're getting closer to CBDCs, you know, the central bank digital currencies, which are, in my opinion, simply surveillance coins and opportunities for the government to control your behavior, you know, and say, oh, you had too many miles on your car today. You don't get to go buy hamburgers this week because it's carbon intensive or whatever. And they're gonna start doing that. Mark my it's already happening. And so the more that we can think about freedom technologies and technologies, you know, that help protect the individuals, it's gonna be very, very important. But but, again, each country is gonna have its own set of, like, what's allowed, what's not allowed, you know, and and most of us are not, you know, undercover, you know, cryptographers and so we need something that's got simple UI and UX.
It's gotta be easy. Nobody like, most people on planet Earth could give a shit about how the Swift network works. They just care that, like, when I swipe my credit card or my debit card that I get to get my Starbucks cup of coffee. Nobody cares. They just wanna get on with their day, you know? And that's I think that applies to Bitcoin as well. And and so the easier that we can make it for people to utilize and understand, it's very, very important. And so do you have fellow Bitcoiners in in your community that you're you're hanging with?
[00:45:33] Unknown:
Absolutely. Like you like you said, Maya, is actually, like, 1 of the 1 of the major Bitcoiners here in Suriname. And, people come by and people visit. You know, I've I've got my friends actually, not many local, but got a couple of friends in the Netherlands. You know?
[00:45:50] Unknown:
But here in Suriname, it's it's just not that many. You know? Do people understand, like, in the communities that you're serving and the folks that that you're working with in these, on the farms, do they know about Bitcoin and crypto and digital payments, or did they understand any of this yet? In Brazil,
[00:46:09] Unknown:
yes. Yes. Here, no. Because in Brazil, PIX has been around for a while. Uh-huh. So the idea that you hold a wallet on your phone and you can, you know, do deals amongst 1 another and it it kind of trans transfers instantly, they're very familiar with that concept. Okay. So for them, it's much easier than for the people here in Suriname, for example. Right? So, I mean, it's it's gonna it it's gonna take a bit. It's gonna take a while. It's gonna take some some significant education and some significant coaching, to get people to that point. And, there there might there will probably be a world where, certainly, in tsunami, as we start working with these communities, we are going to have to use the banking networks, to begin with. For example, it's it sounds crazy.
But for example, for for a couple of samples, I've had to buy roughly 2, 000 kilos of of nuts from 1 of the villages here in Suriname. Mhmm. And I am having to, just today, have a bag, like, kind of like the way drug dealers have it. Right? Like, this bag full of bundles of cash that that it's I mean, I I was way I was like, Jesus. This is like this is huge. And, you know, it's not that it's that much money, but because our currency is so is so weak, you know, it's like you've got this this huge amount of money, and now we're we're making envelopes for all the women. Like, you know, Daisy brought this many nuts, and she's getting this envelope. And now we're having to find a safe place to meet tomorrow so that we can give everybody without us being robbed or shot because it's been and then we're hoping they won't get robbed on the way to their homes. And, you know, it's but that's where we are. You know? I mean, that's where we are right now in tsunami. We are in a place where, you know, a lot of people are unbanked and unbankable because of the agency you just described. Right? So a lot of people that are just hardworking folks can't even get bank accounts.
[00:48:18] Unknown:
And what's the limitation for them getting a bank account?
[00:48:22] Unknown:
Oh, well, for example, first, for an account, you need to, let's say, even have gainful employment. Like, what's gainful employment if you live in the forest? Right? There's no companies. So then a lot of them can't get a letter because their work is taking care of their family. It's fishing. It's planting. It's hunting. Does that mean there's no value? No. That's that's not what it means. I mean and then they sell some of the some of those things or services, so they get money. But then because they don't have they don't they're not working for, you know, a formal employer, They can't get the documentation they need to go and open a bank account. So they have to walk around with the money, and then maybe they get robbed or they lose it or whatnot.
[00:49:02] Unknown:
So so so you have to have gainful employment just to open up a bank account. You can't just say, grandma gave me $50 for my birthday. I wanna go open up a bank account and give it to you. You have to have a letter of employment. Wow.
[00:49:18] Unknown:
That's crazy. It is it it gets crazy over here, Valerie. Ben and so the banking system here is challenged, which is why I said when we're building this, and we're gonna build a, you know, you know, 100 of 1, 000, 000 of 1, 000, 000 of dollar company, I don't want all that money to be going into this banking system that I think is defunct. Right? I want so even though it's gonna be hard, we're gonna do it. Like, we're gonna find the right system. It's gonna be, you know, configurable in the language that the people speak. And these community members are you know, they might not be as educated as some of the folks you know, but that doesn't mean they're less intelligent. And they are whip smart because if they can survive in these jungles, believe me, they know how to handle a wallet. And most most of them have, like, Facebook accounts, and they have WhatsApp, and they have Internet. So we've Do most people have a phone? Do most folks have a phone? Suriname has 1 of the highest phone penetrations, like, in the world. Like, we have, like, 1.7 phones per person or something.
Wow. Yeah. Like, Facebook accounts. So so people are familiar with a lot of the building blocks. Right? So they all have not all, but many of them have Internet. Many of them have been working with Facebook communities and WhatsApp for a very long time now. So I don't see this being a multiyear process for them to transition to a wallet. Mhmm. Will that mean that they understand all the all the building blocks of, you know, like, units of transfer, whether or not we're using Lightning or Tether or Bitcoin or whatever? Maybe not. Right? Most likely not.
But it could still be a wallet system that gives them stability and exchangeability together with the traceability and the transparency.
[00:51:08] Unknown:
Right? Well and this is this is a point I wanna share or or just kinda pick apart. We've only got about 7 more minutes here, but this is something that, you know, I've talked with Troy Cross and some other people who are in the environmental space who are geniuses, you know, because we were talking about this with the supply chain and with the traceability. Does it need to be on the same blockchain as the monetary units? It does not. And and and that's the important part that I think we need to always, you know, go deeper and understand because this is where a lot of the marketers of the crypto, and they go, look. We're gonna have, you know, panda bear token or whatever and use our, you know, Brazil nut tokens, da da da da da.
It's like, do you you don't need to have both of the the data stored plus the unit of, you know, the the monetary part on the same thing. And so this is why, again, Bitcoin as the monetary layer, and then if you do need that traceability, you can have it, of course, in these robust other blockchains. But, that's to me something that's very important, I think, that we need to keep Yep. Having conversations about with people so that we're not accidentally, again, giving people because we got marketed to, you know, like, use my blockchain, and, oh, by the way, it's got this great token, and then you send it over to all of these wonderful farmers in in Suriname, and then they can't do anything with it because nobody wants panda bear tokens or whatever.
You know? And so so this is why I think we need to keep bringing people together to understand how does how do we solve both of these problems. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be on the same thing.
[00:52:54] Unknown:
Yep. Yep. So Right. So I'm and, I mean, I think the the well, first off, the traceability definitely doesn't need that. What I do think you need is you do need interface, and you need feedback. So if in the chain, we know like, if in the farmer connect system, we know that, you know, farmer Joe brought 50 kilos. Mhmm. And we need to make sure that that 50 kilos and the monetary value that that represents does get paid and that it's reported back because he actually received it. Right? Now whether or not that is then an interface to another wallet, that has, again, not you know?
I mean, I love the Bitcoin vision, but I'm not saying that it has to be Bitcoin. Right? It has to be something that can work for people. And, again, whether or not that's that's that's some other type of stable coin or or whatever, it It has to be something that they can use and that for the near term at least or maybe the midterm, that they can step out of without losing value. They need to be able to exit the ecosystem without
[00:54:00] Unknown:
they they can't feel trapped. You know? Like, you don't want people to feel trapped. No. Never. And you don't want them to feel like, oh, gosh. I'm subject to this crazy volatility if they wanna get out right away and have something more stable, you know, in their eyes. Yeah. It's very, very important. And so this is like I said, this is a delicate situation to navigate with, you know, communities particularly that are already vulnerable. Absolutely.
[00:54:28] Unknown:
Absolutely. So that's why I'm saying, like, for now, I'm walking around with bags of cash.
[00:54:35] Unknown:
Yeah, dude. We we gotta get that. No. No more bags of cash. We gotta help you walk around with things that are more transportable and durable still. I wanna put you in touch with, do you know Carol Souza from Area Bitcoin in Brazil? Have you heard of her? She's got so I don't know. She's gonna be on the summit. Yeah. And I'm gonna plug the summit in a second, but, I think they've got, like, over a 100, 000 folks in their community, but they're educators and they help educate Brazil about Bitcoin, and they've got, like, killer. They might be an interesting
[00:55:09] Unknown:
Oh, I'm I'm going to Brazil on Saturday. Oh. If if she's in Sao Paulo or Brasilia,
[00:55:15] Unknown:
you know, we could we could connect because I'm going Oh my god. Okay. I'm gonna here's my sticky notes. I gotta, like, write my note to self, Carol plus John. I'm gonna connect you guys. Right. Yeah. She's gonna actually be I'm gonna plug this super quick. Where are we? Do we have it? I don't even know. Peaceful money, peaceful world. I don't know where the heck I put it. Bitcoin oh, here we go. Bitcoin for p I have so many little subtitles. So next, next Saturday, we're doing we're doing the creator summit, and it's a virtual summit. And so the whole point is we're gonna have over 40 speakers, and panelists talking about how to utilize Bitcoin if you're a creator. So it doesn't matter if you're, you know, an artist, a podcaster, a musician, a documentarian, a writer, whatever, an educator.
We wanna bring different people together to help them understand how Bitcoin can help them grow their community, how to store Bitcoin safely, how to have proper messaging for your, you know, unique, customer avatars and audience and whatnot, and how do you get sponsorship, how do you you know, all that kind of stuff. But Carol is gonna be presenting on, community building and education. And so I'd love to put you guys in touch. And she's in touch. Yeah. She's amazing. I met I got to meet her in person finally in Madeira where we were at Bitcoin Atlantis, which was super cool.
But, yeah, for those of you listening, on the podcast, you can go to bitcoinforpeace.orgforward/summit and get registered, and it's all peer peer to peer, value for value, so it's all donation based. So this isn't like some big giant moneymaker, but we need to put our money where our mouth is or our SATs where our mouth is. And, yeah, it's gonna be really, really cool, but it's on it's gonna be probably gearing up to be almost an 8 hour day, like, of programming and awesome people and presentations and hands on workshops and q and a from the audience, and then we'll have recordings. So it's gonna be really, really, really cool. I'm excited.
But, John okay. So where can everybody find you? I will tell everybody what's up. Yeah.
[00:57:29] Unknown:
Dot Earth. You know? Dot Earth. Find us right there, and and reach out. Of course, you know, we're on LinkedIn and all that stuff. So you can find us there as well. You could also find me at johng.earth, you know, if if people wanna reach out to me personally. Okay. Ong.earth.
[00:57:49] Unknown:
Yeah. I'm gonna put that here, and I'm gonna added that. Yeah. No. It's all good. That's a good 1. You got johng.earth, dude. That's amazing.
[00:57:58] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:59] Unknown:
Look at that. K. You got bobbyotata.earth. I know. I I need more space there. It's still not Oh. It's like it looks so Where is it? Through that. So we're getting through that. Get rid of that valve. That looks stupid. Oh, here. Look. Here. Look at this. Watch. I'll do it this way. Let's let's see what you got. So
[00:58:18] Unknown:
yay. John g. Alright. There you go.
[00:58:24] Unknown:
No. But, dude, you're amazing, and I'm so glad I met you. And and I love what you're up to, and I know you're just getting started. And this is seriously a very, very important project. And it seems like since you're so systems oriented, you know, and you it seems like you wanna be building this as a template and a model for other communities to integrate. It's gonna be great to see, you know, your progress. I'd love to have you back on, you know, as you're making some some,
[00:58:49] Unknown:
some road road marks or what my brain's not working right now. You know, when you make milestones, mile. I know it's something with the road and mile. Milestones, There you go. I mean, this is gonna happen. You know, this is gonna happen. You know, it might take a bit longer than I thought because, you know, you gotta you gotta do what you gotta do, but this is gonna happen. It's the right thing to do. Value needs to stay with the communities. We need to say it's for us, so this is gonna happen.
[00:59:14] Unknown:
You know? And and I love what you said, John, too. Just it's like people don't understand. It's like, how do you make the forest worth more alive than dead? You know? And I think people really need to start shifting gears and because we're in such a short term, like, what's the next quarterly report look like for investors. Yep. We have to get into, you know, a 30, 50, 100 year plan. You know? If you have kids, if you have grandkids, if you think you want earth to be here, like, you can't just look at what are my quarterlies look like. You know? And so shifting investor sentiment and shifting, you know, the way that we operate, I think, is gonna be ultra important. And so it'd be nice if we did it voluntarily, but it seems like we're gonna have to be, you know, combining it with some legislation around the world, like what the EU is doing with the supply chain. So that's cool.
[01:00:06] Unknown:
Well, I think it's you know? And, this I don't know if you've read Ministry For the Future, but it's really about the carrot and the stick. Right? It's about having both. It's about having countries' regulator having the stick, and it's about us consumers offering the carrot by saying, hey. We are willing to pay for this. We are willing to pay for something that's good for the planet. And a lot of research is already showing that people are willing to pay a little bit more, maybe not a whole lot more, but a little bit more if they know it's it's good for the planet. So Yeah. You know, let's make sure that manufacturers hear it and companies hear it, and let's vote with our wallets, as they say. Right? Let's let's make these types of enterprises that are aligned with nature and aligned with human rights.
Let's make sure that they get that they get our business.
[01:00:57] Unknown:
Right? Totally. Yeah. It's so important. And I think the more that we, you know, keep fine tuning our messaging and our ability to connect with the audiences and help them understand, you know, this choice goes over here, and it's gonna lead to this road. If you make this choice, it might be a little bit more inconvenient or difficult or tiny bit more expensive, but it's gonna lead over here. And then you can show, obviously, like, path of death and destruction Yeah. And sadness or path of prosperity and peace and love. Right. Yeah. And but, again, it's just like everybody consumes information and synthesizes it differently. So it's so important that we all understand our voices matter and the ways that we are sharing things matter. And then, you know, how can we, you know, get these messages out to the right audiences, you know, in a timely way.
So, yeah, you're awesome, John. I love you and, and hope that are you gonna be going to any conferences soon? You what do you have coming up around the corner? Anything Well, I got like I said, I'm I'm heading to Brazil to the,
[01:02:03] Unknown:
capital conversions, capital for climate conference Okay. Hook up with with some investors and and Sao Paulo. And after that, I'll be home for as long as I can until I have to go back out to Europe where I'm gonna spend some time in the summer, taking my my son to university and then getting him set up there. So I don't know what all is happening in in in Europe. I'll be in Amsterdam. So probably, I'll be there the whole month of September and probably see what's what's cooking.
[01:02:34] Unknown:
Right on. Very cool. Well, hopefully, I'll get to see you in person again at some point somewhere on planet, our beautiful planet Earth. But I'll make sure I get you in touch with, with Carol. I I be at the NYC
[01:02:46] Unknown:
Summit sunset event, on June 9th in case you're you're hanging out in New York anytime.
[01:02:53] Unknown:
Am I I'm not planning on New York right now, but you never know. Anything happens in this world of ours. So
[01:02:59] Unknown:
So it is.
[01:03:00] Unknown:
Alright. Awesome, John. Well, thanks again, and, I'm so excited for the work that you're doing. And, if there's anything I can ever do to help, always let me know. And, everybody else, thanks for tuning in to Bitcoin for Peace. This is DJ Valerie Beloved, and we'll talk to you guys next time. And make sure you guys go follow John and check out, biotara.earthandjohng.earth. And, we'll talk to y'all soon. Yay.
Introduction and Guest Overview
Meet John Godchalk: CEO and Cofounder of BIOTARA
John's Mission: Saving the Forests and Empowering Communities
BIOTARA's Projects and Impact
Challenges and Investor Perspectives
Traceability and Blockchain Technology
Cost and Benefits of Traceability
Digital Wallets and Financial Inclusion
Suriname's Financial Landscape and Bitcoin
Current Payment Methods and Challenges
Blockchain for Traceability vs. Monetary Transactions
Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts
