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Bitcoin for Climate Change Warriors with Margot Paez

Margot Paez is a climate change physicist and PhD candidate in the civil engineering department at Georgia Institute of Technology. She has an MS in physics from GT and works on climate change statistical-based modeling, primarily in relation to water resources. Her previous research includes robotics and physics of living systems, astrobiology instrumentation, and web-based data management systems.

She addresses the misconceptions and misinformation surrounding Bitcoin's environmental impact and emphasizes the need for accurate and unbiased research. Margot also discusses the funding and motivations behind certain environmental campaigns and the potential of Bitcoin mining to reduce methane emissions. She advocates for bridging the gap between environmentalists and the Bitcoin community to find sustainable solutions for the future.

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Takeaways

• The financial system plays a significant role in addressing climate change, and Bitcoin can be a powerful tool in this regard.
• Misinformation and biased research have led to misconceptions about Bitcoin's environmental impact, highlighting the need for accurate and unbiased information.
• Funding sources and motivations should be scrutinized to understand the underlying agendas behind environmental campaigns.
• Bitcoin mining can contribute to reducing methane emissions and provide a direct action solution to environmental challenges.
• Building bridges between environmentalists and the Bitcoin community is crucial for finding sustainable solutions for the future. Gender bias and unconscious bias still exist in the Bitcoin and tech industry.
• Women's connections and support within the Bitcoin community are crucial for their success and representation.

Chapters

(00:00) Introduction and Mission
(02:17) Connecting Climate Change and Financial System
(04:19) Climate Passports and CBDCs
(05:54) Authoritarian Nature of Money and State
(08:32) Rebuttal to Misinformation
(11:22) Misunderstandings about Bitcoin among Climate Activists
(16:21) Greenwashing and Funding from Ripple
(20:58) Bitcoin Mining as a Solution for Reducing Methane
(25:38) Nuclear Energy and Transitioning to a Sustainable Future
(38:48) Building Bridges between Environmentalists and Bitcoiners
(47:56) Challenges and Opportunities as a Woman in the Crypto Space
(49:32) Gender Bias in Bitcoin and Tech Industry
(52:02) Retaining Women in Male-Dominated Spaces
(56:19) Importance of Women's Connections in Bitcoin
(59:34) Educating and Connecting with Like-Minded People
(01:00:28) Upcoming Paper and Future Publications
(01:01:20) Appreciation for Margot's Work

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[00:00:30] Unknown:

Oh my gosh. You guys have to tune in to this if you love the Earth. I got to interview   a climate change physicist, Margo Paez, and she talks about how Bitcoin mining is helping with methane mitigation and   other wonderful things. So You guys   definitely do not miss this if you care about the Earth and nature.   Hey. Aloha, love Tribe, I have somebody here who is a warrior for our Earth. She is a climate change physicist working on her PhD,   and she is out there fighting the good fight for our beautiful home. This is Margo Paez. Welcome, Margo.   Thanks for having me, Mallory. Totally. So let's talk about what your mission is in life and how it relates to Bitcoin and mother Earth and the climate.  



[00:01:19] Unknown:

Wow. Yeah. Well,   my mission has really been around climate change so that it really is my mission. I   I really changed my life around   in 2019   to focus on issues related to climate change and climate crisis, and   I started off as a climate activist and then   was able   to reorient my research as a PhD   student around climate change.   And then I   realized that there was an important connection or a missing piece,   Which is related to the financial system   and the fact that,   you know, we can't seem to get   Strong policies. We can't seem to get governments to take action.   And a lot of it, at least from my analysis, This is because of how our financial system works.  

And   I thought, you know, Bitcoin is a really powerful tool in this regard. So   I   saw   just an opportunity   to make a difference   and got involved in the space and start   Looking for people who were like minded   in terms of the environmental side and just one thing led to another. Now my entire life is really   Completely focused on this work, so it's really exciting to be able to do this. And how did you come to the conclusion  

[00:02:43] Unknown:

of connecting the dots with the financial   system and the money being broken because   I have   many, many friends who are obviously great activists and peace lovers and, you know, tree huggers. And   they they they're not understanding that if we don't have sound money. We aren't gonna be able to fund   this, you know, future for ourselves. So can you help them understand why   Money like, sound money is this, like   it's so important.  

[00:03:13] Unknown:

I mean, for me, really, it comes down to incentives,   and I found a lot of overlapping   in reading ecological economics   And understanding   that, you know, having the our   our whole   whole human economy   Centered within the the entire biosphere and realizing that   that there are inputs and outputs And the economy itself is not separated from that. And also   really understanding or realizing   that   our economic system,   the incentives are flipped so that   it forces us to borrow from the future   In order to have things today.   And I think   if we had the incentives flipped, which I see as a potential with Bitcoin that, you know, we would   think differently about the future.  

And that's really important   When you're concerned about   sustainability   and having   a planet, a beautiful place for future generations.   So   For me, that's why Bitcoin made a lot of sense.   And it also made sense just, like,   in terms of climate activism and having   A resource   or having a monetary system or payment rails that would be difficult   to compensate   or to have some   buddy in between telling you whether you can use this or not, use this money or not.   And I think anyone who is opposing   A state that is not doing the right thing around climate change should have access   to a system like Bitcoin so that they can continue to fund   their their activism   and their environmentalism.  



[00:04:59] Unknown:

And what are your thoughts on I I was just reading, you know, and I know this has been in conversations around our community,   the   that they're looking to implement a climate passport.   Have you heard of that?  

[00:05:12] Unknown:

I haven't heard the details. I hear things here and there, But I don't know I don't know how realistic it is or how far along it is, so I I couldn't really say. I think,   I mean, aside from that, I mean, obviously,   implementing something like that is a bad idea. We don't want to control people   As a solution to climate change,   we want I think it's much better to have bottom up solutions and not ones that punish people   Or tell them you can't live your life a certain way. I think that   there are alternatives,   so I hope that We don't have things like climate passports or climate lockdowns. You know what? I'm hoping that that's not something that comes to fruition.  



[00:05:56] Unknown:

Well, in kind of tying that into, like, this new CBDC model that a lot of the the governments and central banks wanna start implementing and, you know, thinking about, oh, you've got your, you know,   your carbon   consumption   for this is your budget for each month or whatever, and so I think   People don't really understand what is on the table   with   tying the money that you use, whether it's a CBDC   or not with your behavior   and manipulating you in such a way that maybe isn't in alignment   with your freedom or how you wish to to operate on the earth. And so   what are your thoughts on helping people understand   kind of the authoritarian   nature of where we're headed   if we don't have   separation of money from state.  



[00:06:46] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of examples out there of using money to control people   And, you know, debt is a really great way   to enslave people and to control people.   I think that's Probably a really easy way for people, at least in the US,   to understand   what that looks like because especially with   Student loans, a lot of people have suffered.   And also with, you know, home home loans, people who   Who didn't realize the kind of loan they were getting, and then the banks   essentially screwed them over and stole their house,   Especially during the great financial crisis and   that whole period. And so,   yeah, it's very easy   to make use of money and   But states also   can't confiscate   your money. And I think   the CBDCs are really concerning because   There's lots of I think there's this potential for them to allocate funds to you and say,   alright. But you can only use this for this reason. And if You don't use it by this amount of time,   then we're gonna take it back,   or they could freeze your your savings and take it. I mean, Plenty of authoritarians have done that   in other parts of the world. So we live in a particularly   Unique situation,   especially in the west and the US because we are the US dollar is the world   reserve currency.  

So   we have a lot of stability,   but there's never   a guarantee that that's going to   Last forever,   and there are some indications that   this golden era   can come to an end, and It's just a matter of when, not if,   and we have to be prepared for that.  

[00:08:38] Unknown:

And for so so for people who are,   you know, new to Bitcoin or   curious about Bitcoin. They love the environment, but they're hearing all the FUD, the fear, uncertainty, and doubt about what's going on out there and reading the headlines.   They're reading them from   supposedly reputable,   journalistic   sources.   And, however, we're we're discovering that they're they're not. They're reputable. They're they're putting out misinformation.   They're not fact checking. They're quoting incorrectly,   and it's misleading the public. So can you talk a little bit about,   what you've been working on recently as rebuttal to,   a major publication out there.  



[00:09:22] Unknown:

Yeah. So I have   about 95% of this   paper done, and it's Being reviewed right now. I'm waiting for some feedback from BPI, from the Bitcoin Policy Institute.   And it's over 7,000   words,   And it's   at 21 pages with figures right now, and I and that's,   I think, You know, an example   prime example of Brandolini's law with these these kinds of really horrible papers that,   They take things out of context   or they   purposely   mislead   the reader Mhmm. To get in order to make   specific recommendations   that support their worldview. And that's and   And I want to give these authors, you know, the benefit of the doubt and say like, yeah, they were just,   you know, they just were sloppy.  

I would like to see that crisis end,   but for now, I see a lot of   weaponization   of peer review   And weaponization of the academic literature process in order to push a particular narrative.  

[00:10:36] Unknown:

And who do you think who funded this?   I   Do we know who funded their article?  

[00:10:43] Unknown:

I have no idea who funded it. I mean, they don't list their sources, so it's hard to say   who funded what.   But, I mean, you don't list their funding sources. You don't have to necessarily if you're I mean, it's just like an honor system thing, so   I don't know really who funds their work.  

[00:11:02] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's always my curiosity   is who's paying for these things and where's the incentive? You know? Follow the money. Follow the money.   And   I would be really curious to learn about that   part because   did they even bother to interview the Bitcoin community, and real miners, or was this just academic sitting in a room thinking they know what's going on? You know? And so this is where   I feel like,   really, guys? Like, you you really can do a whole lot better.   But this unfortunately   leads to   people in a different level of power,   one of our senators   out there messing around. And so this is it's a big deal that,   You know, they are doing proper   journalism and proper fact checking and sharing. And so I can't wait for what you're up to to get out and Hopefully,   you know, shed the truth on what's going on and dispel what they have as,   what they've posted. So What are some of the things that you've encountered,   that are the biggest misunderstandings   that   the the climate activists have about Bitcoin.  



[00:12:17] Unknown:

Well, they think it doesn't have a value proposition for one thing, and   They also think it's really bad for the planet.   You know, we just, like, talked about   how bad these papers are. But   If you're not aware of how peer review works,   it's hard for you to know or if you don't know, like, really   How science academic that scale, how that works, and   it's really easy to just take a study and say, well,   These scientists, this is what they found.   Isn't that true?   But they don't realize that   The peer review process is imperfect   and things get through it sometimes that aren't accurate.  

There's lots of retractions. I mean, retractions   are up, I think,   in certain disciplines,   and there has been I mean, there's been crises around   replication issues of studies   In a number of fields.   So it you have to be careful,   just like outright saying, yeah. The study found this, therefore, it's correct. I And it's always best to do a full review, and we have papers now that have done that and have   shown that these studies are bad. But,   Unfortunately,   the news media for one reason or another picks up on these studies and runs with it, and then we have these outlandish headlines Saying, you know, Bitcoin's gonna   use up the world's electricity by 2020   or, you know, within a decade, it's gonna push global warming past 2 degrees, you know, Or now the the the water footprint stuff, which is just,   essentially the same sloppy   Top down over simplistic models   that have already been criticized in the literature.  

It's just a continuation of bad research.   So, but, you know, people in general, climate activists don't didn't have time to go and do all this reading. They're not gonna go into Google Scholar and look it up, And they may not even know, like, where to even start.   So that's really challenging   to to, you know, get to People and say, well, you're wrong for these reasons, or you've been misled.   These news articles really play on people's emotions. So that's   I think these are the biggest challenges   when trying to convince,   you know, environmentalist   people who care about the planet and climate change and who have heard Negative stories about Bitcoin.  



[00:14:46] Unknown:

What would you say about the $5,000,000   that was given to Greenpeace   from,   Ripple   as Yeah. New campaign and change the code.   So that's something that I I think people should understand who are,   you know, I used to support I know in this Greenpeace US and there's other Greenpeace, so I wanna clarify that. So,   We wanna make sure that people get, like, where's the money coming from, and why would somebody give   a crypto guy,   give $5,000,000   to go out there and spell put some FUD out there and then go try to get policy   makers influenced   with this, and then also utilizing old   research that has been debunked   and changed. You know? So how does that how can we help people get, like, follow the money even though you're exhausted   And you know that you're tired and you're you're a warrior, but you have to take time and be more,   diligent about knowing that, like, follow that money,   you know, because it it's it's real.  



[00:15:54] Unknown:

Yeah. That yeah. Chris Larson, CEO of Ripple donated $5,000,000   to Greenpeace USA.   Got them start their change the code campaign, clean up Bitcoin campaign,   which has gone absolutely nowhere, and they and Greenpeace understands this. Now they realize that after a year of this, this is not working. They have to change.   So   At least there's that, but,   yeah, I mean, talk when you talk about bad incentives,   this is a perfect example of bad incentives.   Why is Greenpeace even in why is Greenpeace even care about an industry that is so small, makes like 6,000,000,000   in a year   In revenue across the entire industry, it's nothing,   for an entire you know, at that scale, and then uses maybe   Half a percent of the world's electricity,   something like that.  

None insignificant amount, but still very small   And not in an industry also that really didn't get to an industrial scale   until about   In, you know, in 2017, 2019 in that range.   So, you know, Bitcoin is not Possible for where we are right now in the climate crisis.   It's good to be concerned about whether, you know, what happens going into the future because we do need to reduce emissions. We do need to do that. Absolutely.   But it just seems to me that Greenpeace   Could have better spent that 5,000,000   going after the producers of fossil fuels. And there's plenty of studies out there In the academic literature   that says, you know,   this whole thing with the individual carbon footprint is misplaced,   And there's evidence that this was started by the fossil fuel companies to   deflect responsibility   off of themselves.  

And that also isn't it strange that we can't get any policy   that puts any kind of burden on the producers?   And yet we've been able to do that in other situations   like with the ozone layer   or with,   tobacco,   And we can't seem to do that with fossil fuels. You know? I think   but that $5,000,000   that Greenpeace got really could have been used for a much Better campaign   that got to the root issues   around climate change.   And I'm hopeful that they'll realize this and We can work with them. I'm open to working with them   on doing the right thing around Bitcoin and   Understanding that it's a technology that's here. It's not going anywhere. So   if there are concerns   and they're valid, let's work on them. Let's Try to get the industry to be more transparent. Let's get the industry to think more about sustainability   and being part of this solution.  

I think that's a much better   approach. It's less antagonistic,   and it doesn't feel like you're   Singling out a particular industry,   for some kind of   dubious motivation. You know? So,   Yeah. I think bad incentives   really derailing,   generally, otherwise,   honorable   Institution.  

[00:19:22] Unknown:

Yeah. It's pretty it's it was sad to see that. I was like, what is going on? But   The fact that it was from   Chris at Ripple and XRP who's trying to get legislation against you know, let's change Bitcoin and all this. So I I just feel very   Like, there's another one out there, guys. What do you think about so COP 28,   you know, I think they just announced that we're supposed to Like, we're gonna be cutting emissions,   methane by 80% or something. And I wanna talk about Bitcoin as Bitcoin   mining as a solution   for reducing methane. You know, Daniel Batten is somebody who I really admire and have been following a lot lately.  

Obviously, you and Troy   Cross, and I really want people to understand   about   how Bitcoin mining   is how it can help,   like, the if we've, you know, really implemented   this, how much methane can we get out of the air and how toxic this is? Like, isn't it 84 times more warming than carbon?  

[00:20:27] Unknown:

It's somewhere around over   a over a 20 year period. So Yeah. As you go out,   you you measure these   Global warming potentials, that's what they're called,   over different periods. So in the shorter term,   it's way more potent, And then over a 100 years is 20 times more potent.   It's a, you know, it's a smaller amount   of the overall contribution to Climate change, which is really squarely on carbon dioxide.   But if we are, you know, actively thinking about How do we buy ourselves more time so that we can get to that stage where we can truly decarbonize and reduce our c o two emissions?   Then methane is a really important piece of the puzzle,   and finding solutions in the short term is really important.  

I'm   I have my doubts around the cop these days, and,   you know, they make these   Claims and these promises, but it ultimately is up to the countries to go back and convince   their,   You know, their legislative bodies,   their politicians,   their people,   depending on the scale of democracy in that country. Right? But this is a good idea.   So it's really challenging, and I think that we have not had very good successes coming out of the cop in a long time.   So,   I'm all for, you know, yeah, let's hit that 80% target. We still we've completely failed to hit   The Paris   climate targets of 1.5 degrees Celsius,   and   that's dead. That's really a dead goal. We are going to blow through   it. And 2 degrees Celsius,   you know,   good chance that we will not   hit that one either.  

So   we need tools like Bitcoin   and Bitcoin mining because it's a It's like a form of direct action that gets you   into the game   through the marketplace,   Which is kind of counterintuitive,   I think, for a lot of environmentalists   and a lot of,   activists who come out of the left, you know, this More socialist thought way of thinking.   You know, a lot of people see markets and free markets as really bad things, and I certainly was one of those people. And   I had to learn the difference between the existing market system   and an actual   freed market.  

And   and   And even in the existing market system, just seeing that there are still opportunities   to make change,   if you have the right tools.   So, you know, Bitcoin is just one way   one tool that we have that allows us to get around   having to go through,   You know, having to ask for permission, basically. So if we wanna tackle methane emissions, we can do that. We can raise the funds to do it. We can support those initiatives. We can   Find the machines. We can see how much, you know, how much capital we need to do it and   and and actually try to solve those problems ourselves. I think that's really cool and really exciting,   and it's great that we can even think about it in that way because we really don't have a lot of control   Over the situation   because our politicians are,   you know, are fairly corrupt, and   these mega corporations   have completely   taken over and merged into, like, some corporate state,   and we live under   a corporate state. And   One last point.  

You know, Janis Varoufakis   is also   he's an economist, and he also comes out of, you know, The last progressive movement, and   he calls this,   techno feudalism.   So he thinks we're basically post capitalism, and We are in a kind of techno feudalism,   so it's   something to keep in mind. And how do we survive in, like, this, like, new feudalistic   world   when,   you know, having Bitcoin in that kind of world is pretty helpful, I think.   So,   yeah, it's just   very challenging   on on the climate front having that kind of power.  

[00:24:39] Unknown:

It is. And I think, you know, I I'm in your camp too. Like, I used to be a lot more, like, oh, we need the nonprofits and, you know, to do all this work and the government should come in and help. And, you know, this was years ago before   I discovered Bitcoin. And,   and I really understand. It's like you have to have the incentive, you know, because you're not gonna get them to go change up here. They just won't. It won't it's not enough   economic incentive for them. And,   so it's like, how do we fund this transition   into,   you know, in electrified world.  

People have this   misconception that, you know, a lot of electricity is this bad thing. Like, it's great. Electricity   is so important. And if we don't have,   you know, countries and places that don't have as much Power and electricity   are not as healthy. Their lifespans are lower. Their,   quality of living is lower. And so   Anytime anybody says to me, oh, Bitcoin uses all this electricity. Good. I hope it uses more. I hope it uses a 1000 times more because guess what? That's good because that means we're making our grid bigger. And so not that I wanted to go use fossil fuels necessarily, but, like, What what's your thought on,   nuclear? Like,   because when talking about,   you know, this transition from This fossil fuel economy, which obviously we need, we're not we're not nobody wants to go freeze to death and not be able to,   you know, heat their homes and make sure their kids don't freeze.  

But we do need something in the bridge, you know, before we can get to this next   iteration of how we're gonna keep electricity flowing for humanity.   And so it's gotta be economically   Exciting for people. They're not gonna just go, yay. We're gonna throw this money. Clearly, we haven't done that yet. So what's your thoughts about nuclear versus   wind and solar and all these other things that are actually weather dependent.  

[00:26:39] Unknown:

You know? So yeah. Absolutely. So,   you made a really interesting point just before I get into this, which is, you know, you you said you would love Bitcoin   energy to grow A thousand times because it means the grid is also growing. And I think that's a really important   caveat on that. We're qualifying,   you know, because   You I think the best thing is is for Bitcoin to grow with the society that it exists in.   So if society needs more energy, then Bitcoin can find those crevices, those those areas of excess power and find its way in there. I think that's,   really cool, and I think all that fits in really nicely   into ecological economics.  

So I think that's really the right way to think about it.   It's true.   Like, conceptually,   more energy is really is is It's important. Right?   We have lots of wonderful technology and   we that we wouldn't have today without   The without the energy boom that we got from fossil fuels, I mean, we can't deny that   we're not here today because   We found this abundance of fossil fuels.   You know, now we now that we're here, we're just trying to find a way to maintain this and also   be sustainable   and for the planet and for ourselves to maintain our existence in the long term.   So,   you know, that's the goal, and   I I think nuclear   is an unfortunate   an unfortunate thing that happened,   with you know, in terms of how nuclear   Was portrayed in the end.  

You know, the campaigns and I think environmentalists   were   misled   And were used to   throw the growth of nuclear off,   And there's still a lot of misunderstanding   around how the technology works and around safety.   And it's unfortunate because   Nuclear   has   probably one of the smallest environmental footprints of any type of electricity generator or power generator.   It's a smaller footprint. And not only that,   its footprint is   Relatively location agnostic, whereas, for example, you have a big hydropower dam   hydropower plant on a big dam somewhere   That's water resource intensive, which is which is a scarce resource,   and   not every country has access to that power to that map that Abundance of water. So it really you don't wanna build a water,   you know, a a water a hydro plant in the desert. Right? You know? So you can't place it just anywhere. And there's a lot of other additional   land and environmental   concerns around   changing the ecosystem of the river, and there's been a lot of Issues around that historically.  

So we're really not on a trajectory to build more hydropower   out. And then, you know, wind   Wind has a land   footprint issue and especially offshore wind is   has environmental concerns.   And, of course, yeah, then there's the other considerations   for wind and solar, which is the that intermittency.   Right. The it's only on when the wind is blowing. It's only on when the sun is out.   We have to manage that,   And it's forcing us to have to think differently about how our grids are operated, and it's scary for a lot of people. It's scary for the grid operators.   We don't have all of the batteries that we need, I think, so far. So it's,   you know, it's not an easy transition.  

And I sometimes I think too, like,   if we   if we had not   If if nuclear had not turn been turned into   the bad   big baddie   that it was if it didn't have such a the bad image that it got,   would we   have emitted as many   Emissions, greenhouse gas emissions as we did.   Would we have had a full transition to nuclear   at least, You know, in places where we needed it, like, on the the electrical grid.   Because if you look at a place like France where they Didn't do that. I mean, 80% of I think 80 something percent of their   their grid is nuclear.  

So   and these are old   Old nuclear plants. You know? They're not new.   And now the concern is what happens when they get beyond their lifespan because   All infrastructure has a lifespan.   And what happens, how are they gonna be replaced? And that's really challenging and concerning.   So yeah. I mean,   I think nuclear is   is is a missed opportunity. It's a great and I'm I'm hoping   By the end of this decade, we'll see these modular plants come online and maybe we'll have some kind of nuclear runs renaissance. But   Right now,   we have   to use what we have and what the market is saying   is viable. And   Right now, that's wind and solar and batteries   and Bitcoin.  



[00:32:00] Unknown:

But, like, just the second I think of batteries, I think of how Horrible they are for the environment. And so to me, it's like   this,   you know, oh, everything's okay because it's from the wind and the sun, but because we have to go put them in these toxic batteries that also have a life a shelf life,   That's, like,   what's the differential of really are we making that much of a difference,   and we're compromising on that energy density and that energy Consistency because   you don't have the ability to burn the 247 whether it's a fossil fuel or whether it's nuclear.   And so   I think people need to get   clear on, like, what do each one of these things offer and what are the the drawbacks   to those, you know, and how and I like what you said a lot because it it this made me think, like, what would it have been like? What would our carbon emissions be   if we were to have gotten on this nuclear standard earlier? Or, you know, Like, what would that look like? And so I think that would be interesting to look at those. I don't know. I'm not a a physicist like you, so I don't know how to crunch those numbers and share. But I would love to see that because that could obviously inform   decision makers now   going forward. You know? And so it's like, if we would have done this 20 years ago and not listened to the FUD campaigns that were funded by, you know who,   the fossil fuel industry because they don't want nuclear.  

What would what could our what could have happened. You know? And so I'd be curious, like, in a retrospective  

[00:33:36] Unknown:

kind of way if if that's something Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and, you know, there's a lot of environmentalists who are concerned about   These, you know, like batteries, the materials that are used   in the the renewable alternatives,   And that's definitely,   an active conversation amongst environmentalist and climate activists.   The the problem is that the solution is often   To   And I I'm I I think degrowth is   you know, the the word is wrong, but I think that the idea is good, But some people, I think, take it a little too extreme,   and they wanna   really, really reduce energy use.  

And I I worry about that because sometimes I, you know, I sit at night. I I do something. I go to the doctor's office or I get this   get scanned, and And I think, wow, you know, this is great. I'm really lucky. I live at this time. I don't have to suffer. And   what you know?   I don't think people   think through through all of the the things that we have that we benefit from.   Just like the the barely bare Necessities   of of the that we have. Not even, like   I'm not even talking about, like, fast fashion because, of course, like, fast fashion is   So so problematic,   so wasteful,   energy intensive, water intensive, land intensive, labor abusive, you know.  

But, I mean, like, really, like, we got   a nuclear medicine. It's a component of radiology.   We get some of our medicines directly from as byproducts   from nuclear reactors,   And people don't realize that.   You know? Like, I think technetium   one   Two forty or something like that   is used to treat thyroid.   Like thyroid   cancer or certain thyroid conditions, and   That's something you get as a byproduct.   At least that's what I was told when   I used to when I was a premed   In nuclear medicine   and and learning from the the red the resident there. And yeah. I mean, we get we get a lot of stuff   that we don't realize. We don't realize   that we actually use a lot of byproducts   from   different sources too even though there's a lot of waste   And we can really improve and close the loop, but, yeah, we're just not really thinking   through. It's a good idea, but   The complexity of the system   is something where we really have to be careful with what we wish for because   We could end up with a worse situation or a scarier situation   if we just say, like, no. You know, stop growing   Or stop using energy even I mean,   the growth thing is, you know, economic growth is one thing. Population growth is another, but I mean, like, you know, even just saying stop.  

Full stop energy use, I think, is   has to be done in the right way. It has To be really considered carefully   and know also what are the repercussions   of doing things like that and how sustainable   is that really. So My hope is yeah. Like,   if we can   if we can find ways to tap into power and do it in a way that's sustainable   and maintain   lifestyles and bring up   people who are currently living in poverty.   I think that we should really always try to maximize for that   And for, you know, the planet tubes. Obviously,  

[00:37:12] Unknown:

both. It's not 1 or the other, but we should really It doesn't have to be 1 or the other, and I think that's the thing. Like, we have all the technologies available today to us, you know, to get   people out of poverty, to get them electrified   as it were, you know, and to uplevel their quality of living   without   having to pull us down, you   know, who are the we are the blessed lucky ones in in first world countries where we have access to power easily.   Here we go. Here's the button here. I got my light on here. Easy, easy. I don't have to go burn a candle or chop anything down or anything to go get a little bit of light or heat.   But to human   psychology to even consider that,   you know, those of us who have been accustomed to this lifestyle are gonna go backwards,   you know, and decide, I'm just only gonna turn the lights on for 2 hours a day. Like, that's never happening. Nobody's going to do that, you know, unless it's out of absolute   force.  

You know? And so   so knowing that that's the way that we operate, how can we build for the future   so that everybody can get up to this level at least ensure we can cut back. Yes. I mean, the the reality is, you know,   If you're out there trying to you know, if you're a single mom like I am, if you're struggling to to pay for food, if you're trying to, you know, get a safe place for your kids. Are you gonna go choose the light bulb that costs,   you know, 4 of them for $2, or are you gonna go get the long LED light bulb that cost $20.   I mean, I'm getting the $2 pack of light bulbs. You know? And so   so mentally,   most people right now   are so   in survival mode financially   to get them to go sit and say, I'm gonna opt in to   the the more efficient way of operating with energy. It's not happening.  

You know? And so this is where, again, like, we need to fix the economy and fix The the fix the money, you know, to me is like peaceful money, peaceful planet. And so   when we can get that hopefully dialed in,   then people can feel more like, at, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right? If their survival needs are met, then they can start elevating themselves along that pathway and thinking about   outside of their survival needs and what's going on for the Earth and whatnot in our community around us. And so   so I think it does.  

It has to boil down to getting this money fixed   in this way so that we are not this is the thing I think too that, you know, I was at the Bloom conference, like, a month ago, I think,   and I loved it. I was talking with a lot of, you know, wonderful   environmentalist,   and people obviously, like, let's go hug the trees and, like, save mother Earth. Yay.   But they The money part is just so not in their mindset   at all. You know? It's just he's focus focus focus on this other part of the solution, and I'm like, You realize that, like,   the way that the money is right now, like, you're being robbed.  

You know? You're being stolen from on   and moment by moment basis every time that we get flooded with new fiat.   And so that debases your your,   purchasing power. You know? And people don't understand   why that's so detrimental. I mean, it's mentally detrimental. It's financially fit. It's everything. It's detrimental to to society as a whole. And so   it it's what are like, when you're talking about Bitcoin as a sound money versus   You know, I have a lot of people I've met too that   Bitcoin, it's you know, uses too much energy. It's bad for the environment. So we're gonna go make, you know, green coin or earth coin or what you know, whatever it is. Right? And so   thinking that that's gonna be this   green solution to   the future of money. What do you say to folks, and how do you help them understand the difference between what   what the value proposition of Bitcoin is and what   the difference is with, you know, going and minting earth token, you know, earth coin or whatever.  



[00:41:21] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well, the most important thing about Bitcoin is   the well, there's couple 2 important things. One is that the fact that there is a limit 21,000,000 Bitcoin.   I think that's really significant.   And then the other is   the incentives around mining, Bitcoin mining, and The energy use and the   profitability   and that it's   on you know, it's a very, very competitive market and profits are on the margins a   lot of times,   which means that   there's a lot of constraints   on growth to a certain degree,   Which is really important. It's important to have these physical world constraints,   which you don't have if you just do, You know, you meant your random coin as many you can just, like, keep printing as much as you want, and you're using proof of stake, and it's just like, you know, whoever   can   stake the most of that coin. They're gonna have to say. They're gonna be the validators or so on. You know, I think   When you're really talking about a real money, a real monetary system,   I think having a money that is tied to   Physical constraints and has that competitive nature   and has that cap, I think, is really important when you're thinking about,   You know, ecological boundaries.  

And I think also for people   who want to see,   You know, more conservation.   Excuse me.   You want to see more conservation   happen,   I think,   then they have to realize that you do need a monetary system that   is going to have the incentives in the right order where it's not forcing you to spend now.   You know, it's not forcing you to take on debt now,   borrow from the future   to do things in the present.   And I and I think having the right incentives   should minimize   at least   things that really prey on that   bad incentive of getting you to spend spend now.   Like, things like fast fashion or   disposable products, thing you know, this, you know, one one time use plastic. Right?  

You know, we need to change the we need to get to the root issue in order   to be able to get society to make the right choices.   And the financial system right now does not   give you an opportunity   to make the right choice easily without   Punishing you really because it costs more money to do the right thing right now.  

[00:43:57] Unknown:

It does. And I think, you know,   thinking about,   you know, the   the slow proof of work time preference that we have as Bitcoiners. Right? And so I also think about environmentalists and nature lovers. It takes time to grow a tree. You don't have a solution, right, just because you put a seed in the ground. Yay. I'm gonna have a tree, and, you know, it's gonna take time for things to happen. And so   I think that mindset that we share,   you know, there's a lot of similarities and bridges that need to get   talked about and crossed. Like, I want so much for   all of the activists and the environmentalist.  

It's like, please come to the Bitcoin conferences.   We wanna come to your conferences too and talk about   why this is an important tool   for the future.   You know? And I and I feel like   Having the conversations   out in the   the mud pits of social media is not the place to do it. You know? And the more that we can invite each other with open arms and curiosity   and and 2 ears and 1 mouth,   I think we could do a lot better job of finding the solutions together,   because we're all in the same   trajectory and the same mission to make the world better than we found it. You know, and I think that's super important.  

[00:45:16] Unknown:

Yeah. It'd be great. It'd be great to be able to have those conversations and   And not have them be so antagonistic   and be more open minded.   I would love to have that. That's my dream. That was my one of my motivations   to getting involved was to try to find a way   to bridge that. And it's challenging, but I'm seeing some cracks   Starting to to you know, starting to form.   So I'm hopeful that we are actually making progress. So this takes a lot of work and dedication and   And that low time preference, right, is not gonna happen overnight.  

[00:45:53] Unknown:

Yeah. It's not gonna happen overnight. And I think, you know, it's repetition too. You know? You think of marketing 101. It's like, you know, what do they say? 7 times before you hear a message where you might be like, okay. Maybe I'm ready to buy. Right?   Whatever it might be. And so   Having that consistency   in that open arms and that invitation,   and and, again, I think social media certainly,   has been a hindrance. You know, it's been a benefit in certain ways, but it's certainly been a a hindrance for people to   really meet and have these conversations, like you said, with with open arms and the curiosity instead of that antagonistic,   like, I'm right. You have to let you know, kinda thing. And so Do you I I we talked about this before I hit record.  

What do you feel like obviously, you know,   Finance,   Bitcoin, crypto, it's a very male,   you know, heavy space. Right? And so I think a lot of the,   and, you know, and, of course, I love men. I love women. I love everybody in between. I don't care. Just let's go. Let's go make the world better. But   The men sometimes aren't as sensitive emotionally   when we're having these conversations, you know, especially with other folks outside of this ecosystem   system of Bitcoin. How would you,   you know, characterize your experience   as a woman, as an activist? And certainly, there's a big thing with, You know, is climate change real in this in our community? So there's a lot of, you know, just   energy out there that's not necessarily huggy and touchy feely from from some folks.  



[00:47:27] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's been,   here there's been challenges,   I think, and,   I think sometimes   it's easier to be a guy And be taken seriously in this space,   but   I don't   try not to think too much about it because at Same time, there are also a lot of guys out there that are very supportive   and   are, you know, like, what what I'm trying to do. So   I'm   cognizant that,   you know, not all men are the same. They don't all think the same way.   But, yeah, there are   Certainly, you know, I certainly get harassed in a different way than Troy Cross does, and   we've had the conversation about this a few times where he's just like, Yeah. I mean, I get it. I get harassed and canceled too, but   I don't get you get, like, this certain,   Like, edge of misogyny   that I don't get. And,   I mean,   yeah, it's just   This is   a this, you know, how our society is still there's still a lot of   hate towards women   In the world in general, and it's no surprise that we would find it in Bitcoin as well. And   I feel really bad   for women   in male dominated spaces   because it's can be really hard. I mean, I've   I grew up around   guys and have always kind of been in male dominated species,   so I'm a little bit   oblivious   more oblivious, I think, than other women, but I've heard   from them.  

And   It's clear to me that   there are reasons why women leave,   you know,   male dominant spaces like the tech industry.   And it's really interesting actually because,   you know, like in computer science, for example, before there were a lot it was   There were more   women than men trying to study computer science. And then over time,   this number   was was   changing, and It was actually the inspiration, I think, for the Raspberry Pi Foundation, which invented the Raspberry Pi and all these little credit card sized processors.   They wanted to bring more women back into computer science.  

And a lot of women leave the tech industry, live leave Silicon Valley.   A lot of them leave science   in graduate school. They leave   the physics programs,   And it's because   these these places have not figured out how to retain   women. They know how to bring they're getting better at bringing women into the spaces,   but not retaining them. And I do think that some of that is because there   is this,   like,   unconscious   bias that's going on too this that that is still in these in these spaces.   And,   You know, that we can learn something from other industries and disciplines where that doesn't happen as much like in astronomy, for example.   Astronomy, you know, is branch of physics,   astrophysics,   and yet they have way more,   a way bigger representation of women,   You know, as professors,   as astronomers in general. So,   I mean, there's there's a lot   of questions to be raised about why   why this is happening, but it is hard. I mean, if you don't see other women   who   as role models in those spaces, I think   In seeing them succeed,   I I think that that's   demoralizing   for the other women in the space. So   I didn't really,   you know, I didn't really   take this into consideration very much until I attended, women in Bitcoin   brunch at   Bitcoin Miami last year.  

And I realized,   you know, I had there was a bunch of people came over to talk to me who I didn't know beforehand, and they were so nice And so   interested in what I was doing, and I realized,   okay.   Making these connections with other women in Bitcoin is really important   for   The community as a whole, as women as a whole in this space,   being there, being part of that community,   Being, I guess, trying to be a role model   and represent   our cohort,   right, is Really important. Something that I wasn't at all thinking about until that moment, and then   seeing women that I had seen there at other conferences and being their friends   and seeing how supportive they are and just realizing this is really special. I need to cultivate this.  

And, I have to be conscious of the fact that I'm in a unique position as a woman in Bitcoin,   And I speak on panels and have, you know, just the tiniest amount of of,   you know, reach.   And I   have to make sure that,   So   I'm aware and connecting with the other women and letting them know that it's okay for them to also   do this too if they want to, And their support for them   and, you know,   amazing   thanks to Natalie Brunel   and others,   You know, when   you who are organizing these events for women and trying to make it more inclusive and make it   a safe space   for women. So, yeah, I think it's great, and I'm really glad that I've been able to   experience that as well and see   the importance of Having these these events, these initiatives,   this particular gendered community, I guess.  



[00:53:18] Unknown:

Yeah. I totally agree. I'm I'm   I've every career I've had has always been in a male dominated   field, whether it's being a DJ.   I get the motorboat captain.   You know, everything. It's all of, like, men. And and I love it, and it's great. And I'm Strange. You might not believe it, but I'm a lot I'm very masculine. I'm super feminine, but I'm also, like, relate to men very easily and Yeah. Love it. You know? But I think a lot of women aren't necessarily like you or I, you know, who are used to being in this environment. So it can be It can be intimidating. And I think, you know, for a lot of the environmentalists   and folks who,   are   in in that space, it may be   even more intimidating,   you know, because it's money. Scary money. And it's tech. You know? And so   those 2 things, I think, can be   A barrier mentally, you know, for some people, because I know   there are a lot whether you're an artist, a creator, a tree hugger,   you know, a spiritual person. Some people are just like, oh, the money and the tech and stuff is not   their jam, and so they just kinda go the other way. And I'm like, but it's so important.  

You know? It is it's like it's something we do every day. You know? Somehow, we're transacting   value.   Restoring value, which is our time. You know? And so   I want to create a safer,   more welcoming   Atmosphere   for folks who are,   you know, typically feeling like, oh, I'm not good at math or I'm you know, they have stories around the whole thing, and then they just shut it down. But then, unfortunately, their lives are being   very negatively impacted because of not understanding how the system works and not understanding what is money, etcetera. And so   I love that you're out there on panels and sharing your wisdom with people and   across all of these sectors. It's very, very important. And so, I mean, we can talk about this forever.  



[00:55:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I just and I just wanna say the connections I mean, it's amazing.   I've looked out.   I met I met this woman recently at a at a conference, and I didn't know really, I didn't know her before and I was about to go on a panel right after she was in the audience. And if everybody in the audience and it was, you know, of course, a male dominated audience   I scan   while I was speaking.   The woman in the audience I'd met was the one that was, like, really engaged with what I was saying.   And I thought, wow. You know, this is really cool. There is this special   kind of like   Silent or connection, you know, a deeper connection that we can have and   That I'm not I'm not getting from all the guys in the audience.  

So I thought that was really special and just really,   I don't know. It sends home to me, like, how how important it is to make sure we bring in all the women that are out there and say, yeah. You belong here.   And your you and I were the same,   and we we can do this together.   Don't be afraid. Don't run away. There's a place for you.  

[00:56:24] Unknown:

Yay. I love that. Oh my god. That's such a good ending, like, wrapping up   statement. I was gonna say, like, what would you say to, You know, anybody out there who's the I mean, whether you're a a whatever gender you identify as, what would you say to,   You know, people who are a little intimidated, people are on the fence, people who have been, you know,   listening unfortunately to the FUD and to some of the misinformation.   How would you help them, you know, make the next step? What would a call to action be for those folks?  

[00:56:57] Unknown:

Well, I think   They probably need to speak with people   who are like minded   or or who have experiences that they   that they value.   So I would try to connect them with those people.   If they like reading, I would send them some papers that   Explain why a lot of the research that is being used in these news articles is wrong and these and also that, you know, these papers are coming from people who are not In the Bitcoin community or space,   you know, they're like from they're just researchers who have been doing this for a long time and just in overlapping   Or,   yeah, disciplines.  

So that that's where I would start. It's like first   read this maybe or talk to these people,   You know, who are creating a circular economy in Kenya   or or to these political dissidents who had to live off Bitcoin because   They were blacklisted,   basically,   put on terrorist wasp watch lists and couldn't and were couldn't open a bank account   And had to use Bitcoin and they didn't have Bitcoin, who knows where they would be.   You know?   Those are the kinds of stories that I I want to connect people to because   I think once they see   that there is a value proposition to bit Bitcoin, I think it gets harder   For them to hold on   too strongly to those initial   gut feelings about about it.  



[00:58:26] Unknown:

So that's what I would try to do. Awesome. And where can everybody find you, Margo?  

[00:58:31] Unknown:

Well, best place is still on Twitter or x or   Twix.  

[00:58:38] Unknown:

Oh, I haven't heard it called Twix. I like that. I I do like maybe a once in a while. Guilty that one from a friend, but yeah.  

[00:58:46] Unknown:

I'm on there. I'm jyn or so. That's j y n underscore   u r s o.   And   my DMs are always open. So if you wanna send me a message, I'll definitely get back to you Within a day or so. And if I see it   but, I mean, I I do respond, and I and I check My Twitter DMs regularly, and I like keeping them open. I'm not afraid to talk to strangers.  

[00:59:12] Unknown:

So yeah. That's awesome. And when can we expect your paper? When do you think you're gonna we're gonna be able to get it to get our hands on your was it 21 or 22 pages, you said? It's at 21 right now. Yay. We'll see we'll see what, first, I gotta hear back from  

[00:59:27] Unknown:

the Bitcoin Policy Institute to see They think it needs to be shorter.   So   we'll see, hopefully, in a couple weeks, but there will also be a shorter version,   coming out in,   Bitcoin Magazine at some point. I'm not sure. I think it'll be in in a future print issue.   They they're they're having   some special FUD,   series, and so it'll be included in there, yeah, at some point. Oh, good. Alright. We'll look forward to that, and,  

[00:59:56] Unknown:

we'll make sure everybody follows you. I'll put all your stuff in the show notes for people to   to like and follow and make sure that they're getting accurate information   for themselves so that they can go make better choices on their journey as   nature warriors and environmentalist and activist. So it's very important work. So thank you so much for taking time to be with me. I know you're ultra busy working on your PhD   and at the Bitcoin Policy   Institute and everything else. I really, really appreciate your time, Margo. Thanks so much.  

[01:00:24] Unknown:

Thanks for having me. It's been great. Totally. Alright. Aloha, everybody. Take care. Mhmm.  

[01:00:30] Unknown:

Alright.