DJ Valerie B LOVE Show

Share on social media:

                Bitcoin Is Fun - Collectible Card Games | Dustin D. Trammell


Join us for an exciting conversation with Dustin D. Trammell, an early Bitcoin adopter, investor, and gaming enthusiast. In this episode, we explore how gaming can make learning about Bitcoin fun and engaging through the Bitcoin Collectible Card Game (Bitcoin CCG).


What You’ll Learn:

• How Dustin discovered Bitcoin in 2008.
• The inspiration and mechanics behind Bitcoin CCG.
• How the game teaches Bitcoin concepts like mining, mempools, and fiat vs. sound money.
• The future of Bitcoin education through gaming.

Featured:

• Dustin D. Trammell – Bitcoin pioneer & creator of Bitcoin CCG
  Twitter: @dustintrammell | Website
  
  
• Yukai Chou – Gamification expert
  Twitter: @yukaichou | Website | YouTube
  
  
• Robert Breedlove – Host of "What is Money?"
  Twitter: @Breedlove22 | Website | YouTube
  
  
• Niftynei (Lisa Neigut) – Bitcoin developer & educator
  Twitter: @niftynei | Website
  
  
• David Bailey – Bitcoin advocate
  Twitter: @DavidFBailey
  
  
• Cynthia Lummis – U.S. Senator advocating for Bitcoin
  Twitter: @CynthiaMLummis | Website
  
  
• Ainsley Costello – Musician & Bitcoin supporter
  Twitter: @ainsleycostello | Website | Instagram | YouTube
  
  
• Kevin Kelly – Creator of "1,000 True Fans"
  Twitter: @kevin2kelly | Website

Topics Covered:

• Why Bitcoin is the hardest form of money ever invented.
• How gaming helps simplify Bitcoin education.
• The impact of Bitcoin on personal financial freedom.
  
  

Support Bitcoin CCG: Pre-order and support the project on Geyser Fund: https://geyser.fun/project/bitcoinccg


Stay Connected! Subscribe for more Bitcoin discussions, gaming insights, and financial freedom strategies!


#Bitcoin #CollectibleCardGames #BitcoinGaming #BitcoinEducation #BitcoinCCG

🔥 LISTEN TO EPISODE HERE

https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/djvalerieblove/204

(00:00:40) Introduction and Guest Introduction

(00:01:06) Dustin Trammell's Journey into Bitcoin

(00:05:13) Understanding Money and Bitcoin's Role

(00:09:30) Gaming and Technology Background

(00:13:02) Bitcoin Collectible Card Game Overview

(00:20:31) Creating a Bitcoin Job from Passion

(00:28:43) Bitcoin's Impact on Personal Finance

(00:31:32) Challenges in Transitioning to Bitcoin

(00:36:09) Spending Bitcoin and Fiat Dynamics

(00:42:33) Government and Bitcoin: A Strategic Reserve

(00:46:46) Transparency and Blockchain in Government

(00:50:42) Role of Government and Spending

(00:56:33) Supporting the Bitcoin Collectible Card Game

(01:07:13) Future Plans and Conclusion

❤️  SUBSCRIBE to Manifest with LOVE Newsletter
https://djvalerieblove.com/subscribe

🧡  SUPPORT THE SHOW WITH TIPS - Thank You!
https://getalby.com/p/djvalerie

💛  SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST
YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@djvalerieblove
RUMBLE: https://rumble.com/c/c-6698813
WEBSITE: https://djvalerieblove.com/podcast
FOUNTAIN.FM: https://fountain.fm/show/761jhxFiibErm7eZZdlt
APPLE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dj-valerie-b-love-show/id1441540841
SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/6kZfzFZ3wKmWiljDajrJZ5?si=a9433473b06f464b
RSS: https://serve.podhome.fm/rss/4996bcea-e098-5a89-ac63-af7a3df7cb5d

💚  FOLLOW DJ Valerie
X - TWITTER: https://twitter.com/djvalerieblove
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/djValerieBLove
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/djvalerieblove/
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dj-valerie-b-love/
NOSTR: https://primal.net/djvalerieblove

🩵  DJ VALERIE’S FAVORITE TOOLS
BITCOIN MENTOR - FREE consult for self-custody https://bitcoinmentor.io/aff/love/ 
AUDIBLE - Get 2 FREE Audiobooks https://www.audibletrial.com/bitcoin
SHAMORY - Have Fun Learn Bitcoin 10% Discount  shamory.com/love
SATSBACK - Get Bitcoin rewards when you shop https://satsback.com/register/Ezv2VLwKXgLd8X4Z
HEATBIT - 5% OFF Code = PEACE -Earn Bitcoin & Save $ Heating Your Home https://heatbit.com/?ref=LOVE

💙 DJ VALERIE’S FAVORITE EVENTS
https://b.tc/conference/2025/ Use code LOVE for 10% OFF
https://www.adoptingbitcoin.org/ Use code DJVAL for 10% OFF
https://sovereignminds.ca/
https://btcplusplus.dev/
https://baltichoneybadger.com/
https://bitblockboom.com/
https://unconfiscatable.com/
https://bitcoinunconference.com/
https://afrobitcoin.org/
https://oslofreedomforum.com/
https://denver.space/

💜  BUY, TRADE, STORE, MINE BITCOIN
HODL HODL no KYC https://hodlhodl.com/join/NMKLQ
RIVER FINANCIAL Buy Bitcoin Safely -Get Up to $100 in FREE Bitcoin https://partner.river.com/LOVE
TREZOR - Get 10% OFF Trezor 5.0 and Onboarding Call https://affil.trezor.io/SHcT
COLDCARD Discount 5%- Promo Code “PEACE”  store.coinkite.com/promo/PEACE
SAZ MINING - Get $50 OFF your Bitcoin Mining Order https://app.sazmining.com/purchase?ref=DJVAL

🩷 DJ VALERIE'S FAVORITE IDEAS
WHAT IS VALUE FOR VALUE? - ADAM CURRY https://value4value.info/about/

[00:00:35] Unknown:

Alright.   Alright. Hey. Aloha,   love tribe. Welcome. It's Saturday night. I know you guys don't typically hear from me on a Saturday night, but you all are tonight because I have somebody with me here who I had the pleasure of being on stage with at Pacific Bitcoin a couple years ago. And somehow,   the universe dressed us up the same.   And we were talking about art and culture   and how Bitcoin is making the world a better place and how art, music, and culture are making the world a better place. So this is Dustin Trammell. He is an investor, an inventor,   a gamer, somebody who I've been watching for a long, long time, and we're gonna be talking about how Bitcoin is fun and his new Bitcoin collectible card game. Welcome, Dustin.  



[00:01:19] Unknown:

Hi. Thanks for having me. Totally, dude.  

[00:01:23] Unknown:

So   okay. You   are somebody who   loves the color green. Let's talk about that after.   Let's talk about why green is so important to you. And,   but I want my audience to understand, like, you know, because a lot of people look at charts and they get scared. And we look at cryptography and we're like, oh my gosh, and finance and money and stuff. And, you know, you and I are obviously creatives and artists. Like, how the heck did you get from being, you know,   a a cosplay   inventor to a VC, and now you're starting these companies? Like, can you let everybody know who you are and how you got here? Sure.  

[00:02:01] Unknown:

So, yeah, as as you mentioned, I am a creative, but I'm also a technologist.   I   Mhmm. Have a wide range   of interests and   hobbies and skills that I've developed over the years,   not just in, you know, art and gaming and things, but, you know, my background is in information security.   I was,   you know, working in that industry when the white paper was originally published,   out of the, cryptography   email list.   So I was paying attention to that just in the normal course of my my career.   I've always been kind of libertarian minded,   interested in alternative currencies and economic models and things like that. I was   interested in the Liberty Dollar around the same time as a silver backed   physical alternative currency.  

And the white paper was published, and I read it. I was like, oh, this is this is great. This is alternative currency and mixed stuff with cryptography.   You know, I'm obviously very interested in information security and cryptography.   So,   read the white paper, found it fascinating,   waited pretty diligently   for the,   software to come out, which did a few months later,   in early January  

[00:03:15] Unknown:

two thousand nine. Wow. Okay. So hold on. Just hold on. So everybody understands.   You read the white paper before   February.  

[00:03:23] Unknown:

I read the white paper either   Halloween night,   the day it was released,   or the next morning. I don't recall exactly when.   But it was released on Halloween,   October thirty first,   and I I read it somewhere within the next twenty four hours or so, just checking the the cryptography mailing list. How did you get, like, just I mean, because, like, obviously, you're that's you're you're a  

[00:03:48] Unknown:

an OG legend. Right? And so it's like, how do you how did you   find yourself in that, you know, mailing you know, the the Bitcoin   cryptography mailing list? You know? Like, how how did that happen? So so a lot of people,  

[00:04:02] Unknown:

conflate the the Cypherpunks mailing list Thank you. Yeah. And the cryptography mailing list. They're Okay. Two different things.   I was not on the Cypherpunks list. I was on the cryptography list, which is more like,   industry   cryptographers,   people just working in cryptography   Okay. At the time. And, being  

[00:04:22] Unknown:

you know, working in information security, I was very interested in cryptography. So I joined the industry mailing list and, you know, followed followed that list. So, Satish did you get that? How did you even get to that list? Like, I just I guess for those of us who don't know, and I'm, like, a total, you know, newbie to all this stuff. Like, back then in 02/2008, '2 thousand '9, like, how did you even find that list? I don't remember exactly  

[00:04:44] Unknown:

how I found it. I probably   heard about it from another information security person,   just working in the industry.   They may have tipped me off to it. I don't remember. It's it's a public list. You could just go find it on the website.   Probably if you searched for cryptography mailing list Okay. You would have found it pretty easily. Okay. And anybody could sign up. It was a open public list. So,   not not too difficult to find or or give into, honestly.  

[00:05:13] Unknown:

Wow. Okay. And so,   like, when you started you know, when you obviously got exposed to the white paper, like, in everything you've seen up until that point, like, did something all of a sudden just like like,   this is it? Like, did did you get an moment, or how did that work for you as a technologist and a security person? Yeah. I was I was looking at it from a very technical mindset,  

[00:05:35] Unknown:

looking you know, I obviously had a little bit of interest from the, you know, libertarian mindset in Austrian economics.   I I saw,   you know, some of that in there, but I was more looking at it as, okay. What what are they using the cryptography for? What how does it function? You know? What is what is this blockchain ledger,   that they're using? How does that work? So I was I was looking at it from a very analytical   mindset,   rather than a philosophical   or economic mindset.   And most of the conversation around it at the time, it came out on the mailing list, was   maybe a dozen or so cryptographers   just arguing about whether it was a viable idea or not and whether it was gonna work.  

You know, there wasn't   a Bitcoin community to say, you know, around it or anything. It was brand new.   All of the people discussing it, this was their first exposure to it within, you know, a couple of weeks of it, the white paper being published. So,   yeah, it was it was an interesting time to kinda be looking at it. I didn't really have the moment   until much, much later when I can kind of went down,   the the what is money rabbit hole a bit more. You know, I had always, you know, kind of inherently understood   commodity money, gold, silver,   you know, those those types of scarce assets.  

But I didn't really understand   why they were money, what made it good money. And once I went down the what is money rabbit hole, thanks in large part to Robert Breedlove and and that podcast,   I I then understood, okay. This is why gold has been money for the last, you know, five thousand years or so.   Mhmm. And   then it it dawned on me why Bitcoin is superior money.  

[00:07:23] Unknown:

And and I think, you know, for for a lot of people listening   who   and and I, you know, I used to work at Deloitte and Touche. I've started, you know, a couple different companies with, you know, my ex husband who,   you know, is wonderful money person and but, like, I never even understood what was money. You know? And so until, like, and I went to school for, you know, business and accounting and finance and all this, but they didn't actually teach you what money was. And I feel like that's such a,   uh-oh. Where'd you go, Dustin?   We lost you, brother. Alright. You're gonna come back. I'm sure. So   what we understand,   like, what is money,   like, they didn't teach you that in school, and they didn't teach us what the federal reserve is. They didn't teach us what was sound money. They didn't teach us what was,   you know, what was a proper ledger.  

Okay. Yo. We had a little bit of a connection problem there. No worries, my friend. I know. You're in the the the tropics. God bless you.   Yeah. I got a 500 gigabit,  

[00:08:27] Unknown:

fiber here, though. So, like, I shouldn't be having any connection problems. You're like, wait a minute.  

[00:08:33] Unknown:

But, yeah, we were I was just kind of carrying on with just, like, the what is money. Right? Like, a lot of us go through,   you   know, whether it's school, whether it's business, whatever. It's like we go through and we're like, cool. What's profit and loss? What's an income statement? What's your balance sheet? Nobody teaches you what money is. They don't teach you what money is. No. They don't. Realize that fiat is not money. Yeah. And and it it's it's such a,   it's such a rug pull, you know, when you to me mentally, because I'm just like, wait a minute. You mean this thing that, you know, is nothing?   It's literally monopoly money, and I'm supposed to trust these dudes or guys or girls, whoever said   Literally. Make a vow of thin air. Literally. And and I was just listening to, Walker's podcast today with,   Julian and   Peruvian Bull when they did the the, you know, their their thing with,   the Jekyll Island thing and the Fed. And you're just like,   what? So I feel like for a lot of us, you know, who are, you know, I think seasoned professionals and entrepreneurs,   it's such   a, like, strange experience to feel like, what do you mean I didn't know what money was? And what do you mean there's this system that is extracting value from us as we, you know, sleep, and and we don't have a say so in it? And it just it's such a strange experience. And you've obviously, you know, had this awareness for quite a while, and I'm still you know, it's almost three, four years. I don't know. I can't count.  

Since COVID, like, '21.   And, so I guess four years. I'm still new to Bitcoin.   How did you get from,   you know, where you were starting to learn about this to turning into, like were you always, like, a gamer? Were you always somebody who's, like, this creative person? Because, obviously, you've got, you know, Trammell Ventures, and you've got,   you've got, you know, the the the the games and the fun stuff that you do. Like, how do you balance those two things in your life?  

[00:10:34] Unknown:

I I I do my best. I do a lot of things. So trying to keep them balanced is is definitely a a a challenge sometimes.   I've I've always been a gamer from the very early childhood.   My dad had Atari computers,   when I was Yeah. Five, six, seven years old.   Somewhere around seven or eight, I started,   copying,   video games   out of magazines   and typing them into the computer in order to get new games and play them,   which also kind of, you know, kick started my,   technologist   career as well.   I got my first modem   at 10 or 11 years old Oh, my god. Out of pre public Internet. So Yeah. Yeah. I was dialing up bulletin board systems, and I found some hacker BBSs   that,   seemed interesting, and they had hacker tools on them. And,   some of them were not very secured. You could actually hack the BBS that was giving you the hacker tools to do so. Right. And that kind of got me fascinated with information security. And so I I,   you know, from a very early age, kind of was looking at technology and information security   as well as games. So this is you know, computers back then   were   you know, that's that's most of what you could do with them. There was some business software, and there were games. Yeah. And then as we started getting, you know, communications technology,   and networks, you started paying a lot more attention to the security of the computer because suddenly, it was connected to other things, and people could potentially attack you through those those vectors. So,   Yeah. I, I've played lots of games growing up. When I was a kid, I like to create my own games. Obviously, I still do. Yeah. So I've just kinda,   been going with that as a hobby,   for most of my life. And then,   you know,   maybe seven, eight years ago, I decided to try to monetize some of it and,   actually publish some games and,   create games for,   conferences like the Bitcoin conference and Pacific Bitcoin.  

I also create, like, in person   immersive   games where,   driven by an app, you're running around the conference solving puzzles and doing things like that. So,  

[00:12:56] Unknown:

yeah, that that essentially became the Rogue Signal company, which is also the the publisher of this, Bitcoin collectible card game. Well, let's talk about that because I've we've got obviously, we'll we'll pull the video up and kinda, you know, show this to everybody. But, Yeah. We can start with the video. Totally. And and I do you know who Yucai Cho is?   Sounds familiar, but I don't think so. So he created this framework called the Octalysis Prime framework. He's one of my teachers. And so, you know, he's a behavioral scientist, and he talks about, like, how to,   you know, ethically motivate people to, you know That's where I've heard the name. Yeah. I I I yeah. I do know the name. I I, haven't done a lot of, digging into into that, though. And so so for for those of us who were interested in learning, right, there's all these different learning personalities and learning styles.  

And, you know, there's fun for the sake of fun, and there's also, like, well, how can we use fun as a tool for learning something? You know? And you think about the ABC song. Right? Like Mhmm. Everybody knows the ABC song because it's a jingle and we get it and it's fun. And, you know, so they talk about,   when you're having fun and your emotions are elevated   and you're doing some kind of repetitive thing, you're gonna have a lot more of a retention,   capacity   versus just, okay. Here's a chart. I saw a graph, and here's a presentation,   and I'm gonna regurgitate it. And I'm gonna go to sleep, and I'm never gonna remember it. Fuck off. You know? And so so so to me, like, you know, the the   the the gaming, you know, as is very, very important to   and and   to have fun, of course. But there's also fun ways, you know, to   how help, you know, small people, children and adults learn. And so I wanted you know, let let's have some fun. So I'm gonna go,   I'm gonna hit I'm gonna pull this up, and we'll watch this little video. And then we can talk about, like, your, you know, all the the backstory of this game and how you came up with it and whatnot. Yeah. Now I I definitely tried to pack as much Bitcoin concepts into this game to help teach people that might be completely unfamiliar with Bitcoin,  

[00:15:05] Unknown:

about a lot of the different concepts and things that that Bitcoin employs.  

[00:15:09] Unknown:

Yeah. And I think it's it's so important because, you know, depending on your audience. Right? Like, even if you're dealing with, like, a, you know, a 60 year old hedge fund dude from Wall Street, like, he's still gonna have resistance or she, you know, is gonna be like, this is you know? So so it's so important for those of us who are different styles of learners to have different ways to,   to come to the elephant as it were. Like, you know, you talk, you know, the elephant with the the tail and the horn the the trunk and everything, and all the three blind men think it's three different things. It's like, no. It's one whole elephant. And so so I think it's really important that we have,   you know, folks like you,   making these things and helping people learn and, of course, have lots of fun. So let's let me head over here and get to the play button.  

Can you hear it okay?   Yeah?  

[00:16:00] Unknown:

Welcome to the Bitcoin collectible card game.   Bitcoin CCG is a collectible trading card game for two or more players,   where you harness resources and be the first to collect 21 Bitcoin to win.   Build your deck and collect cards through starter decks and booster packs. Construct a deck from your own cards to pit against others in a race to earn, win, or steal the most Bitcoin.   Battle other players.   Each player must play with their own constructed deck against other players and their  

[00:16:33] Unknown:

Oh, no.   Don't stop.  

[00:16:36] Unknown:

It's really buffering.  

[00:16:38] Unknown:

We're buffering. There we go.  

[00:16:40] Unknown:

Gameplay consists of rounds where   Oh, gosh. Don't stop. They're a little buffer. Each player takes a turn, and then the round ends   by mining a new block.   Harness your resources,   energy,   hardware,   software,   services,   meet iconic characters,   person,   avoid pitfalls and make the most of   hash each turn.  

[00:17:19] Unknown:

So much buffering.  

[00:17:20] Unknown:

Okay. So Grow your collection   with 147   unique cards in the core.   2,025   set ranging in  

[00:17:30] Unknown:

Alright. We're gonna stop just so that I don't annoy the listeners. That's fine. There's there's not much left there anyway.   Cool. Okay. But so so let's talk about this because I think this is such an interesting,   it's an interesting concept. And I was never somebody who grew up with, you know,   you   know,   Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon and stuff. Like, as a, you know, a girl, that wasn't my jam. Right? And so can you help everybody kinda understand this? Because I think it's something very familiar with a lot of folks, you know, and how this game can work and be familiar with, you know,  

[00:18:04] Unknown:

something that they're used to playing. Right. Yeah. And if you're if you're familiar with collectible card games, like you mentioned, Pokemon, Magic the Gathering, Disney, Wakana, you know, all of these types of games, This is gonna feel very familiar to you.   If you're not familiar with those types of games,   essentially, what they are are,   games where you construct a deck out of your collection of cards. It is a collectible,   so you're buying, you know, booster packs and and decks and things to,   amass a collection of cards. And then out of all of your cards,   you might find some that work together as a nice strategy or some that complement each other, And so you build a deck around those those mechanics or those concepts,   and then you play your deck against   somebody else in their deck or multiple other people in their decks.  

And you're generally battling. You've got, you know, creatures that that do damage to each other or you've got spells that affect the rules of the game   or, you know, different,   effects,   on the creatures or on the other players and things like that. So that's, in a nutshell, how collectible card games work.   I got into Magic the Gathering very early.   Magic is I don't know I don't know how old it is now, but,   I believe I started playing Magic in   1994   or '3.   Somewhere around there. Dude. And it was already two years old at that point. I I missed the very beginning of it,   and got in a you know, started playing it a couple of years after it came out.  

But   Richard Garfield is an amazing game designer. He invented Magic the Gathering,   and it literally   created the genre of collectible card games. None nothing like this existed prior to Magic the Gathering. So,   at least not that I'm aware of. And it spawned all kinds of copycat games. Now we have Pokemon. We have,   Marvel. We've got   Star Wars. We've got Star Trek. We you know, all of these   different fictional worlds and environments have collectible card games. And,   you know, being a huge proponent of Bitcoin, I was like, why doesn't Bitcoin have a collectible card game? So let's make one.  

[00:20:22] Unknown:

I think it it it's like   this is something where a lot of people, I think, get lost with, like, oh, I need a Bitcoin job, or how do I, you know, work in Bitcoin? It's like, what do you love?   Yeah. What the heck do you love? Are you a DJ? Are you a musician? Are you a poet? Are you a game designer? Are you, you know, a holistic healer? Are you a carnivore?   Whatever. You know? Like, are you a a a a holistic retreat person? It doesn't matter. Like, there's always somewhere for those of us who want to,   integrate Bitcoin into   what we already love.  

And I think a lot of people out there are just like, oh, I'm supposed to just go work for some company.   It's like, no. Like, take what you're passionate about   and let's, you know,   let's play. Let's be you know, as a DJ, obviously, I'm like, how do we remix things? You know? How do we remix this to that? And how do we put chocolate and peanut butter together? And so so I think it's so cool that you've done this. And what's been the   like, how many folks have been able to experience this yet? Like, if what's been the response with your your your audience?  

[00:21:27] Unknown:

So I've been working on this game for about four years. Oh my gosh, dude. A year, year and a quarter, year and a half, something like that, just kind of working out the game mechanics,   designing it,   and just figuring out generally how the game works.   At that point, we started prototyping cards and started playtesting,   which, of course, found all kinds of problems with the game. We have to define it. You know, it's it's a very iterative process coming up with the game because once you start playtesting,   you're constantly finding things that work great and not so great. And you have to iterate, change things.  

We've gone through probably four or five versions   of the core set of cards.   Almost every card that we started with has changed a little bit in some way   over that   year and a half to two years or so of playtesting.   But all of the people that I've had playtest it,   granted their, you know, Bitcoin and crypto people,   they've loved it. They've enjoyed it. I have a few playtesters that are not from the Bitcoin and crypto space,   and they've also enjoyed it as well. So,   the the reception from the playtesters has been great.   I think we've, pretty much got all of the kinks ironed out, and, we are hopefully going to print here in the next week or two. Yay.  

At at which point, we'll shut down the crowdfunding campaign.   And then once we get all of the inventory back, we'll put that up, for after filling the the preorders,   that'll be up on the Rogue Signal website, webshop for people to purchase directly. And do you feel like this is something that is a,  

[00:23:09] Unknown:

a a STEM or a STEAM opportunity   for, like, you know, an after school program or for for homeschoolers or people who are doing private school? You know? Because Yeah. Possibly.  

[00:23:18] Unknown:

It's,   it teaches more abstract concepts   than direct knowledge about Bitcoin.   For example, in the game, there's a mempool, and you play certain cards into the mempool. And they have to sit there and wait until you mine a block at the end of the round, and then whoever has the most hash is the one that mines the block, and they get to choose which of these things are gonna go into the block and and and have happened. So,   while you'll   definitely come to understand the concept of a mempool and how that works, it obviously doesn't teach you the the nitty gritty technicals   of how the Bitcoin mempool functions.  

But from a high level abstract concept, you'll absolutely understand the mempool after playing this game a couple of times. That is super cool. Do you know you know who Nifty Nya is?  

[00:24:08] Unknown:

Yes. Yeah. Like, you know, she's got her kind of physical game with the strings and everything. So   do you know about her box, like, her learning box? No. I don't actually. Oh my gosh. Is she's you know, so so you guys need to y'all need to call with her on man or Wednesday, actually. Yes. Okay. Got it. I will ask her about this box. Ask her about the learning box. And and so   it's just such a cool thing because, you know, she can go send all these different boxes all over, and I got to visit her when I was in Austin. And I know, yeah, obviously, that's where one of your,   places are. And,   and I was like, you know, I'm,   like, I'm just not a technical person. I mean, I'm technical to some degree, obviously, but I'm not, like, a coder. I'm not a, you know, cryptographer for sure. And she's just like, yeah. I wanted to make something so that people could kind of visually and tactically touch,   like, what it looks like to put a block in. You know? And so I was like, cool. So so I just think it's fun to, like, see what you're doing and what she's doing and   all the folks out there who are, you know, having fun and making these different ways for people to, like,  

[00:25:12] Unknown:

not just have fun, but, like, learn learn a little bit on the way too. You know? And so She was here in, Puerto Rico about a month ago, and we sync up and and talked a little bit about about gaming and,   the the Bitcoin plus plus conferences and and stuff. So, yeah, we we've got a call on Wednesday, and, we'll hopefully, be collaborating on some stuff. Good. I hope so. Yeah. And I know she's got her thing coming up in, Brazil, and she's amazing. So I was so, like, I'm just,  

[00:25:39] Unknown:

like,   I don't know about you. I mean, I'm, again, I'm just like this normal person. And the fact that I get to talk to you and meet you and meet her and talk to all these devs and talk to all these people who are, like, the ones who are,   you know, making Bitcoin possible.   You know? A lot of times, we we think of, you know, this,   like, cloistered area of, oh, here's all these, you know, people with the Fed and the government and the money and the banks, and you don't ever get to be a part of that. But, like, Bitcoin is this   inclusive   for everybody on the whole planet network, you know, and it We're very open and inviting and until you're shit coining, and then then they're toxic. But Precisely. I'm also toxic. I know. It's all it's like all of a sudden open and inviting. I know. It's like the the,   like, the squid ink starts going out. You know?  

Like,   for me, like, I've had some squid ink going out this week.   Yeah.   I but   but it's such an interesting   environment, you know, because you can talk to everybody and just be like, hey. I'm trying to do this project, and I think it would be cool. And I want it I wanna zap people here with my personal growth project, and I wanna build it on Nostra. I wanna do this, and it's like, fuck, yeah. Let's go. And so it's just such a cool, like   I don't know. I've never felt this. And, you know, being I'm retired, you know, from being a DJ per professionally.   Obviously, I'll go play at some, you know, our Bitcoin conferences for our friends and family, you know, but I'm not on the road,   you know, two hundred and forty five days a year, which is what you need to be on if you're gonna be, you know,   a a real professional DJ. But Right.  

But that still that environment   is still very cutthroat.   You know? It's very, like, I always say elbows out. Right? You're just kinda like, get out of my way. No. No. No. No. I need to push you out of the way so I think that You gotta look out for yourself. Yeah. And, like, I feel like our our   our, you know, our our our global Bitcoin community is just, like, much more more uplifting. Yeah. Come on. Come on in. Yeah. We inviting, much more uplifting.   Yeah. Yeah. And just The top rotary is real. Totally. Well, because it's like we understand,   like,   the game theory is, like, if everybody wins, everybody wins. It's true. You know? And to me, from a spiritual perspective,   if everybody wins, everybody wins.  

And so whatever your spiritual beliefs are, it doesn't matter. It's just, like, that's the truth. You know? And I and I think that's something that we don't see in a lot of other,   industries or sectors in the world. You know? And it it just and this is inaction. It's not just theoretical.   You know? It's not just philosophical.  

[00:28:19] Unknown:

It's just make a positive feedback loop. And unless it's being undermined by, you know, massive theft through fiat money,   It it is a positive feedback loop, and humans do lift each other up when when they're prosperous.   So I I fully believe that, you know, Bitcoin is embodying that and and it's showing people that again because we haven't had that since fiat money kind of ruined everything.  

[00:28:44] Unknown:

Total. How has this changed your life? I mean, obviously, you know, you've been   since you you read the white paper in 02/2008.   You know? Like Right. Before and after white paper. Like, how has your,   human experience changed with, like, looking at how the world is? Yeah.  

[00:29:01] Unknown:

I mean, I I I found Bitcoin. I played around with it initially. I mined some coins for a few months.   Then I kinda stopped paying attention to it for a few years until the news of the Silk Road,   using it as its currency came out. I was like, oh, yeah. I remember this Bitcoin thing. Let me go look at that again.   But,   yeah, just kind of getting into Bitcoin and then truly understanding money   really opened my eyes as to the the scam that is fiat currency and,   the governments all over the world   perpetrating this on their citizens. It it is massive rampant theft. Yeah. And   once I realized that, I was like, yeah. Opt out. Use Bitcoin.  

I I use those hashtags   constantly   on social media because I truly do believe it.   I'm all in Bitcoin.   You know, people say, Huddl, don't don't spend. I was like, I have to spend. That's all I got. You know?   I I I I do have some, Fiat revenue streams coming in, but it mostly goes into   Bitcoin once I receive it.   And, you know, once you do that, you realize that you can save again,   and humans don't have to also have a second full time job as an investor just to maintain their wealth. Yep.   You you really can just save in Bitcoin and focus on your craft as the meme says.   And so that's what I've been doing. I save in Bitcoin. I do obviously invest as well, but   the the hurdle rate for an investment is,   does it outperform just saving in Bitcoin? And And when you look at the performance of Bitcoin versus the dollar,   you know,   eight, ten, 15 percent inflation   is your hurdle rate. If your investment is not gonna return   north of that, you're still losing value. Yep. And not very many investments return north of 15%.  

And when you find them, you probably have to be a accredited investor to even participate, which locks most people out of them. So, you know, the the normal pleb can't save,   and they can't invest   in things that are gonna beat inflation.   So what what option do you have? You you can save in hard money, and Bitcoin is the the hardest money humans have ever invented. So,   yeah, I I truly believe the meme,   you know, save in Bitcoin and focus on your craft, which is what I'm doing. I'm focusing on on the things that I love to do.  

[00:31:33] Unknown:

And and so for people who are obviously,   you know, not at a place where,   they've got a huge sack of hats. Right? And so they're still in, you know, fiat land, and they're, you know, doing whatever their craft is, whether it's, you know, being a plumber, whether it's being a teacher, whether it's, you know, being an investor, whatever.   How do we help people   start to make that transition?   You know? Because it's it is a little intimidating.   You know? And I know for me, like, with people who are in, yeah, it's hard. And for the folks that are in my life who I'm still, you know,   I've gotten to the point where I'm just like, I'm just gonna be honey. And when they're ready for something sweet, they can come to me instead of trying to go throw myself at them. It's just been, like,   exhausting.  



[00:32:21] Unknown:

Yeah. There's there's a number of hurdles there. You know, there's there's the mindset shift that has to happen.   Most people alive today have lived under a fiat   currency   regime their entire lives. They don't know anything different. Yeah. A good majority of them are living paycheck to paycheck. And when you live paycheck to paycheck,   you don't have any savings. You can't buy Bitcoin and save it because you literally have no money to put into savings. Right. So you have to kind of figure out, okay.   Can I,   you know,   work a side hustle and put that into Bitcoin and then have my normal job pay my bills? Can I, you know, come up with some way to earn Bitcoin   or,   maybe,  

[00:33:04] Unknown:

you know, somebody gifts you some rather than immediately sell it? You know, try try to hold on to it. Yeah. But, yeah, it's it's real hard for a large number of people living in today's world because they they just simply don't have any money to save. Yeah. And and I think that's the first so so it's like we're dealing with a couple different things. Right? We're dealing with the folks who are just literally, like, I always say, like, right here. I'm like, you've got the the water, and you've got just enough to breathe right above the water, and you're barely, you know, keeping afloat.   And so there's those folks. And, unfortunately,   as we see, in my opinion, this is by design.  

Right? Because the masses can't go revolt against you as an entity called the Kraken or the government,   or the deep state or whatever the fuck you wanna call it. If they're  

[00:33:50] Unknown:

just struggling to get high afford to lose a day or two of work, you don't have time to go protest. No. You have no time to go protest.  

[00:33:57] Unknown:

Yeah. You gotta put food on your table and you're paycheck to paycheck. There's just there's only one outcome there. Yeah. And the food that you're putting on your table, unfortunately, is 99¢ pizza slices because, you know, that's all you can afford for your family of three. Yeah. Food is is a thing. Yeah. And and and it it it is. It's such a thing. And I think that's another   you know, I'm gonna be doing a, a holistic health summit for Bitcoiners in April, just kind of a a semi virtual in person summit here at the Denver space.   But it's like,   if we're not watching out for our consumption model, you know, and, like, what's kinda coming in, Like, we're gonna, unfortunately, get polluted. Right? Whether it's social media, whether it's the stuff we're putting in our mouths, whether it's vaccines. You know? Probably the second I said that word, we're gonna get shut off of YouTube.  

And,   but,   but but I feel like, unfortunately, like, people are in that that paradigm over there. Right? So they're just kinda, like, trying to how do I get, like, an extra $10 a week to go put into Bitcoin? You know? And then and then we've got a whole another set of people over here who are Bitcoiners,   who are just like, oh, hodl, hodl, hodl.   I'm not supposed to go spend my Bitcoin. I'm like, fuck. Yeah. You are. I'm like, how are we gonna make this a medium of exchange if you don't? And here's one   possible way, and this is I'm sure there's tons of ways. But, like, if you're, you know, wanting to hold all of your, you know, your resources in Bitcoin,   then, oh, look. It's Thursday. I know I need to go buy a pizza. I gotta get some groceries. I've gotta do blah blah blah.  

Convert your Sats that day into fiat if you need to go do fiat or, you know, go buy Bitcoin if you're in a community that's a circular economy.   You know? And then you can say, cool. This is my cold storage,   and this is my spending, you know, little bucket over here just like you would with your wallet in your, you know, your purse or your pants. And so   people need to start thinking, like, every choice that they make, every time that they spend   a sat, a penny, a dollar, a yen, or whatever,   you're either voting for peace and freedom   or you're voting for the fiat slavery system. Yeah. And interesting,  

[00:36:12] Unknown:

thing happened with,   the game once we started playtesting it. This this thing manifested that mirrors,   what happens in the real world in that people spend the shittier money first.   Yeah. So in the game, we've got two currencies. We have Bitcoin. We have, generically,   Fiat.   And,   in order to convert back and forth between the two, you need a service,   in the game. There's service cards like Mt. Gox. I don't know if you can see that or if it'll focus. I know how to focus. Yes. It's an exchange that lets you convert your fiat   Bitcoin back and forth. But,   when you're playing a card out of your hand,   frequently, you can pay for it in either currency.  

And people always spend the fiat first. Of course. They spend up all their fiat because it's potentially there's an exchange rate in the game. It's potentially getting, you know, devalued   over the course of the game. And so they spend it early, they spend it often. And then when all they have left is Bitcoin,   then they have to spend their Bitcoin in order to do things. And I this this manifested   in the game, and I was I was,   delightfully surprised,   about how quickly people started figuring out, oh, yeah. You spend the crap first. You huddle the Bitcoin. You spend the fiat. And then when you run out of fiat, you have to spend the Bitcoin.  

[00:37:33] Unknown:

Yeah. It's to me, it's like a I   I I try to make everything as simple as possible for my little brain. And I look at, like, when my children have gone, like, trick or treating with, you know, Halloween candy. Right? Like, when they go start to try to do their trades,   they're not trading the best stuff first. They're just like, oh, here. You can have my little junky pencil or whatever the fuck these people gave me. And, okay, I'll trade you for this thing. And so they're constantly   and I know that there's a a term for this, and god I I forget.   Osvaldo, if you're listening, you're so smart. You always teach me stuff.  

But he's one of my mentors and but there's a a phrase for why, you know, the thing when you teach you know, you're not teach when you spend the the crap value money first. You know? And so,   and I think that's something for it's gonna take time, of course, until we get to this medium of exchange. And, obviously, it's gonna take time because we're navigating   capital gains,   and people are just like, oh, no.   I'm gonna zap you or buy Starbucks or whatever. I don't wanna pay. Who cares? No. I have to do a tax report. Yeah. Yeah. It's horrible. And and and so it's just sort of a thing, but, like,   okay. Whatever. It's a couple steps. Like, how many steps for freedom did the people who, you know, in our country and, obviously, many countries   have to go take so that we could have   something that separates ourself from,   a malicious government that doesn't care about us? You know? So if if that means we have to have a couple more steps of reporting,   who cares? You know?  

You know? I don't know. I just feel like   we're so used to everything being so easy all the time. I'll take a little bit of paperwork over the risk of   of tyranny and authoritarianism,   you know, and that's what we're obviously seeing. And so people don't get that. And it's like, we're these frogs in boiling water and that whole, you know, analogy there, and it's just like Yeah. Unfortunately,  

[00:39:30] Unknown:

the reporting is surveillance. So, you know,   maybe they can't confiscate your Bitcoin, but they may know how much you have based on your tax reporting and and things like that. But,   yeah, it's it's   just a giant scam.  

[00:39:46] Unknown:

The entire fiat system. It's horrible. It is. And so so, like, you know and I'm not gonna dox where you're at, but, like so judging from what you're seeing, you know, what's going on with Trump and all the stuff with the   the auditing and Doge and everything. Like, how what are your thoughts on that, and how do you think that's gonna,   impact, you know, the future of Bitcoin?  

[00:40:07] Unknown:

Yeah.   It's it's obviously beneficial that we now have an administration that's more favorable to to Bitcoin. Yeah.   The last one was very, very anti crypto, anti Bitcoin. So that's an obvious big step in the right direction.   Now whether any of the individual,   actions   that are being taken,   are gonna be, you know, huge helps or little help. You know, we're not really sure yet. Gotta kinda wait and see what actually happens and how it plays out.   You know, and National   Bitcoin Reserve   could go either way.   That could help Bitcoin. That could potentially harm Bitcoin. So we kinda need to see, you know, what the what the market economics   are are gonna look like when when these things are implemented,   and, you know, what happens to the demands for block space? What happens to the number of transactions that are happening on the base chain versus   upper layers like lightning and liquid? You know, it's there's there's so many different variables and factors there. It's hard to tell,   what is going to happen until we're in the middle of it, and you can kind of start to see the direction things are going. And I think right now, you know, we're only a few weeks into this administration.  

It may be a bit too early to try to predict anything, honestly. But do you think, like so okay. And I'm not obviously, like, a  

[00:41:28] Unknown:

a big finance woman, but I was listening to a space. I don't know if it's last night or the night before. It might have been last night with,   with Magoo and David Bailey.   And they were talking about, you know, Magoo was kind of pushing against   David's, you know, strategic Bitcoin reserve concept and,   Cynthia Lummis's bill. And they're just like, number one, where's the money gonna come from? Number two, if you think you're gonna get up to a million Bitcoin in this, you know, strategic Bitcoin reserve,   Like, what's gonna happen to the market,   you know, with that? And is it actually gonna   like, how what's the timeline of that actually playing out, and how is it gonna continue to,   Yeah. Because as the price goes up, when people are like, oh my gosh. The US government's doing this reserve.  

Like, it's gonna make it more expensive for the US government to get it. So are they gonna print more money and then fuck the rest of the people who are holding dollars? You know?  

[00:42:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Where is the money gonna come from? They're gonna print it. Yeah. The the first nation that can print money to print fiat money to buy Bitcoin wins.   Totally. None of them have done it yet. El Salvador can't do it because they're a dollarized economy. They can't print dollars. Yeah. You know, they they only had to have the dollars they'd have to work with.   They're buying Bitcoin with it, which is the right move,   but they can't print their own dollars and buy Bitcoin. The United States can. Yeah. Other countries that have their own sovereign   fiat currency can.  

None of them have done it yet. The first one that does it and   completely destroys their own currency to get as much Bitcoin as possible, they they're gonna win.  

[00:43:07] Unknown:

Yeah. And it's such a it it like, you know, you just brought up El Salvador, so I don't wanna go too much of a tangent there. But I just interviewed John Dennehy the other day, but, you know, it's kinda like, okay. Now you're El Salvador was, oh, cool. Legal tender and playing all these games. And then now it's like, here's your IMF loan. You don't get to go do those things anymore. And so they they rug pulled a lot of of of,   what we thought was gonna be the trajectory for how Bitcoin was gonna get, you know,   in involved, you know, for their community. And so   so that's sort of a   that's a, you know, a buyer beware,   I think, cautionary tale for people because we get so excited. And and that's for everybody. I don't care if you're for for Trump or Kamala or, you know,   whatever, Scooby   Doo. It's like there's always gonna be a change of the guard of political folks,   and you never know which way they're gonna go.  

And and   I don't know that that like, what do you think about separate because because, obviously, we're talking about this, Bitcoin strategic reserve.   That's   combining   money with state again, which I think to me, Bitcoin the point is separating money from state. The the point is separating the control   of money from state. Yeah.  

[00:44:25] Unknown:

You know, bit Bitcoin is for everyone and anyone, including your enemies.   Yeah. I think it's perfectly legitimate for a government to buy and use and hold Bitcoin,   as long as they can't control it.   So   maintaining the decentralization   is paramount,   ensuring that they don't get too much political influence over the developers that are creating   the reference implementation   core.   You know, things like that are are very important. But a government using Bitcoin is just as legitimate as anyone else using Bitcoin, you, me, a a business, you know, anyone all over the world. How do you okay. I'm and I'm gonna go on a weird string right now if it's okay with you. Sure.  

[00:45:10] Unknown:

I was I was,   gosh. I've Cybill or Cybill. I forget his name. But there was a guy,   who's who's,   you know, did this big, you know, four seven, I don't know how many year documentary about the moon landing. And he's just like, the moon landing is fake.   It's bullshit.   And he went up and went to, I forget whichever astronaut, and was like, would you put your hand on the   bible and swear that you landed on the moon? And the guy punched him in the face. You know? And so,   you know, unfortunately, we're looking at   these entities, whether it's the CIA, whether it's the NSA, whether it's whatever the three letters are that have their hands in the,   in the game of the people who can talk about things in the public. And so   for me with Bitcoin core developers,   you know,   because   in my opinion, you know, or my, you know, tiny bit of research,   it's all about blackmail.  

And there's a lot of blackmail involved with what we've got going on between, you know, certain,   organizations around the world. I'm not gonna say what they are,   with their certain lists that nobody wants to have out there in the public. And so how can we, as   Bitcoiners,   feel confident as we do our own research   to make sure that, like, the core developers or anybody is not compromised by the blackmail   strings that we know, unfortunately,   are like,   metastasized   cancer   all over the world.  

[00:46:46] Unknown:

Yeah. In anytime you have secrecy   around   operations, things that that, you know, especially in in government,   should be public,   should be auditable, should be,   you know,   responsible to,   congress or the executive branch or whoever, you know, oversees them,   anytime that is hidden   from the public,   other than very, very few legitimate national security concerns Yeah. Is a giant red flag that there's something corrupt or something bad going on there.   And I think identifying   those areas   and shining light on them, you know, pushing for transparency,   things like that are are how we solve a lot of that discomfort.  

As we're finding out, you know, just recently with,   Doge   and the USAID stuff. You know, people are outraged   at where their tax money has been going,   through USAID because,   USAID   has resisted   oversight from Congress for a very long time. Nobody knew what was going on there other than the people inside USAID.   And so, you know, things like that, initiatives like that that bring these things to light, I think, help with, with some of that discomfort around the the lack of transparency  

[00:48:05] Unknown:

in our And so organizations.   As a technologist,   you know, because, you know, we heard Elon say recently,   okay. Let's put all the government transactions on a blockchain.   Mhmm. You know? And and I was just in a space the other day, and there were some folks who didn't understand,   you know, who were claiming they knew what a what blockchain is and what a blockchain was meant to do. And they're just like, oh, it's just a marketing term. I'm like, no, dude.   There's   last I'm and I'm not I'm not you, obviously. I'm not a genius technologist, but it's like,   how what what could be a tool? And is it Bitcoin? Is it the Bitcoin time chain blockchain   to put all of the government transactions on? Because we've seen,   the guys in Guatemala who've done the voting,   you know, it goes on. You know? And so so to me, that's really cool. Right? So it's like,   great. Here's our voting. You know? This is our transparent voting. So is there a way for us to,   is Bitcoin the right tool   and mechanism for this, or is there something else? Because I think as a as a citizen, I would love to be able to just open up a browser and go, yep.  

Here's what the fuck they spent some money on today. And Hey. I didn't even know what your goals are. You know, if you need transparency,  

[00:49:21] Unknown:

there's ways to do that without the overhead of a blockchain. Yeah. If you need immutability,   sure. Maybe you might want a blockchain,   something that is cryptographically   secure and can't be rewritten later Yeah. To hide things, that kind of stuff.   So it really kinda depends on what what your goals are because blockchains are very,   overhead heavy.  

[00:49:43] Unknown:

Yeah. They're expensive. They're not like a they're not a cheap database with AWS.  

[00:49:48] Unknown:

For many, many things. Yeah.   So, yeah, it it kinda depends. If you're trying to make,   you know, government transactions,   publicly verifiable,   transparent, first, you gotta define what a government transaction is. There are so many departments.   There are so many different   branches.   They interface with   NGOs, private business, all kinds of different things. Like,   I I think getting a handle on just collecting the data   is gonna be a much bigger problem   than making the data transparent or immutable,   which may or may not need a blockchain.   So, yeah, it's I I think there's some some bigger problems,   to solve first in how   to identify and collect all the information   in, you know, a a a central place or something or wherever you're gonna,   make it transparent.  



[00:50:43] Unknown:

But do is it something that you think I mean, again, like, I know that there are certain things where it's like, okay. We've gotta be   private and not let the whole world know what we're spending money on, but, like, that's unfortunately,   instead of, like, eighty twenty public private, it's been eighty twenty private public. You know? And so people don't know what the heck the money is being spent on.   We're having, you   know, whatever   trans operas in Colombia   and, you know, whatever the heck they're doing to The Beatles that Fauci is doing. I don't know. You know? But it's just like, we   we we need to understand, like,   number one, what's the role of government?  

Mhmm. Right? And what are the things that we actually should be spending our money on? And is this, like, to me, like, a out of a one out of 10, is this a good thing that we should be spending taxpayer dollars on? And then I'm a fairly strict constitutionalist.  

[00:51:35] Unknown:

So it's like, for me, there there's a lot of these things that are very obviously   not,   you know, authorized for the federal government to do by the constitution,   and should be left to the states or the people. Yeah. And, you know, it's like, why is the federal government doing this at all? No. They shouldn't be. If you if you want this done, do it in your own state. Totally. Figure it out in at a local level. You know? It doesn't need to be a giant nationwide   massive program,   that affects everyone because not everyone in The United States is the same.   We've got various regions that have vastly different economic,   properties.  

We've got, you know, different regions that have vastly different,   ethnic   mixes. It's The   United States is a giant place, and not everything  

[00:52:24] Unknown:

in fact, most things probably should not be one size fits all. No. The yeah. There should be no one size fits all. And and it's like, what are the three basic functions of government? You know? And so it's kinda like, how can we get down to the basics   and   let the federal government do the biggest things that we're supposed to do? Okay. Let's protect our borders. Let's make some rules that make sure that people don't kill each other.   You know? And so I just feel like it's gotten so bloated because people are incentivized   to play the game. You know? And   and I, again, I'm not like a super political person. I'm not left. I'm not right. I'm in the middle. I'm just, you know, I got sparkles. You know?  

But I feel like   as a business person, I'm like, if I'm   you know, I look at it this way, and I was gonna write an article about this, and I probably still will. But I think about, you know,   if I'm joining a club, you know, if I'm joining a membership organization, you know, I'm gonna pay some dues. Why am I paying dues? Because I'm gonna get something back in exchange for paying the dues to be a part of the club.   Right. What are my dues gonna give me? Okay. Cool. I got a coffee machine over here at the co working space.   I'm gonna get to use the co working space for a couple hours.  

I'm gonna make sure nobody steals our computers at the co co working space. Whatever. Their tools,  

[00:53:42] Unknown:

laser cutter.  

[00:53:44] Unknown:

Totally. Simple stuff. Yeah. Like, here's a couple things. But my dues that I'm paying to be a part of that club   are not to go   for somebody who's 2,000 miles away   to go   do something   that doesn't benefit me and my little club. And so,   you know, I feel like people are are are losing the plot here,   you know, because they've got this   this open checkbook.   You know? And they've been playing with the open checkbook. And so   and I I   I used to be so far left, you know, and, like, oh, everybody kumbaya and bring everybody together. And I don't even wanna say left, but just,   you know,   I was just a lot more liberal than I am now. And since I became a Bitcoiner, I'm a lot more like   that's not fair. That's not the right way to use resources.  

Yeah. You know? And and   I I don't know. It's just it's been a different   unexpected experience   for sure.   Because I'm like a total groovy hippie chick, and now I'm just like,   don't do that.   Okay. Well, enough of me and all that stuff. So   so let's talk about the game, and let's talk about what the future is of   of of, the Bitcoin collectible card game. And let's talk about, like, how people can support you with geyser.fund.   Like, what is geyser.fund?  

[00:55:02] Unknown:

So so,   geyser is a crowdfunding   platform.   We have been running the campaign there to take, preorders   essentially,   for the past few weeks.   We were trying to get a Kickstarter and a GameFound   crowdfunding campaign going as well to kinda target   gamers specifically, and then Kickstarter is obviously the biggest one,   in the industry.   GameFound just recently completely rejected us,   tried to figure out exactly why, and they were being real,   obscure about it. It essentially came down to they probably don't like Bitcoin,   just in general.  

And Kickstarter, we've been in campaign improvement limbo for nearly three weeks now. I'm not super confident that they're gonna get off their asses and actually approve our campaign.   So,   right now, it is only available,   to purchase with Bitcoin.   We are working on getting all of the same stuff that's in the geyser campaign   up in our ecommerce shop early. We were gonna wait until we actually had product in hand,   before we did that, but it seems like, the only way we're gonna be able to allow people to purchase,   or preorder   this stuff with their dirty, dirty Fiat,   is by actually putting it in our own store. So we're working on that.  

If you do wanna purchase with Fiat, that'll be available soon. But right now, the Geyser Fund   campaign is the way to go and preorder.   They accept,   Lightning and I believe on chain as well.   And,   yeah, we are about 80. You can see they're almost 85%   of the way to our goal.   The goal funds,   a single print run of the first set of cards, which is the core twenty twenty five set.   We're versioning these per year so that,   they are obviously limited edition.   Once we stop printing the the core twenty twenty five set, that's all of that set that will ever be printed.   And so,   as a collectible,   there's there's where your scarcity comes from.  

You can purchase,   individual booster packs or individual starter decks.   They are randomized in the same way and have the same rarity distributions,   across them so that,   if you buy a starter deck of 60 cards or you buy   five booster packs, which is also 60 cards, 12 cards per pack,   you're gonna get roughly the same rarity distribution. You're gonna get the same number of rares, same number of uncommon cards, same number of commons out of out of the, you know, the number of cards you're purchasing. The only difference is a starter deck ensures that you get,   certain types of cards   so that the deck should be playable   just out of the box. It may not be a good deck because it's randomized.  

You may wanna buy some booster packs and get some other cards and and fine tune and tweak your starter deck.   Maybe, you know, buy a starter deck plus five boosters, and then you've got a good starter collection of cards to build a single deck from.   But it should be playable out of the box if you just buy a starter deck.  

[00:58:19] Unknown:

Awesome. I love it. And so   everybody who's watching, you can obviously see what's up on the screen. It's geyser.fund/project/bitcoinccg.   I'll put everything in the show notes so you guys can have these and,   you know, if you wanna participate.   What what would you say to people who are,   you know, just kinda on the fence, who are learning Bitcoin, who wanna kinda get involved but are a little uncertain? Like, what would you help people understand and give them a little sense of comfort around   around their journey?  

[00:58:52] Unknown:

Yeah.   So you don't need to know anything about Bitcoin to play this game. Cool. It will teach you some concepts. Like I mentioned earlier, the mempool,   and,   you know, kind of the conversion between fiat and Bitcoin and and exchange rates and things like that. But you don't need to know anything about Bitcoin to play the game. You can you can pick up a deck of cards,   play against someone else, and you'll you'll start to kind of learn these concepts.   The the game itself,   is obviously the point of the cards,   but they are collectibles as well. So if you're not a gamer, you don't care for the game at all, and you're just into the collecting,   of the cards,   we have   five different rarities of cards in the game. There's legendary,   epic, rare, uncommon, and common.  

Out of the core twenty twenty five set, there are only two,   legendary cards, Satoshi Nakamoto, which you actually just brought up on the screen there Okay. And the 51%   attack. So,   if you manage to pull either of those out of a pack,   you might wanna hang on to them because they're gonna be pretty scarce.  

[01:00:04] Unknown:

Oh my god.  

[01:00:05] Unknown:

Yeah. If you, scroll back to that,  

[01:00:09] Unknown:

that card slider section Hang on. Hold on. I'm trying to get top right.   Come on, computer work.   You should be able to click on the cards at the top. Cards. I think. I know. It's not. It's saying return home. Oh, here we go. Return home. Okay. Yeah?  

[01:00:26] Unknown:

Scroll down until you see the,   the card examples that you were looking at just a second ago,   And I'll kinda walk you through it. Okay. Yeah. Here you go.   So there are,   seven different types of cards in the game. Got it. Okay. Great.   Starting with the brown ones,   they're people, four person cards.   We have individual,   people in the game like Satoshi Nakamoto, and then we also have what are kind of archetypes of a person, like,   cypherpunk,   a software engineer, that kind of thing that's more of a class   of a person.   They   do different things, like let you draw extra cards or, you know, get some extra hash,   for the the hash comparison at the end of the round to determine who gets to mind the block and things like that.  

The second one, the yellow cards are energy.   So,   in this game, the resource,   that you need to,   harness to,   activate things and and cause things to happen is energy.   There's a bunch of different sources. We've got solar. We've got green energy. We've got nuclear power plants.   On the screen, there's the infamous college dorm,   you know, the most expensive, quote, unquote, free energy ever.   They're   paying for it.   But, you know, students used to, you know, mine Bitcoin   on their laptops in their college dorm way back in the day. So we included the college dorm.   But these cards generate energy, and then you spend the energy to activate hardware, which is the next,   set, the gray ones.  

Here, we've got things like ASIC miners,   that generate hash directly.   We've got computers   that will run software, and we'll get to software in a second.   The software can do things like,   draw   an extra card or run a a trading bot to generate fiat or, you know, all kinds of different things,   that the software can do. There's other hardware that is not   computerex.   There's Faraday cages. There's battery packs to store energy,   all kinds of different hardware.   Let's see. The next one, the little bell and kind of the the,   tan cards are services.  

These are things like   crypto exchanges that let you convert your fiat and Bitcoin   back and forth, or we've got computer repair shops that help you,   reenable,   any of your computers that an opponent has managed to disable on your side of the board.   There the interesting thing about services   is they are available to anyone in the game to use.   And if you own the service, you get paid for other people using it. So,   it's can be a way to generate money,   in the game as well as you can use them yourself to   obviously,   create the effect for for your benefit as well.  

The next one are instant actions. These are cards that,   happen immediately when when they play. There's all kinds of different things that they do,   and these are the only cards that can be played out of turn. So you can use these to respond to something that someone else is doing during their turn. Mhmm. They can then use them to respond to yours. And if you're, familiar with Magic the Gathering and their instant mechanic,   it works very much the same way.   You can continue responding   until nobody else wants to respond, and then all of the at instance happen in reverse order to resolve.   It's a fun mechanic,   and we included it in this game,   as well. And these cards do all kinds of things. The one on the screen, inflation,   increases the Bitcoin exchange rate, so   Bitcoin gets more expensive in fiat terms as the game goes goes on. There's also a card that,   will deflate the exchange rate, but it's it's a little bit more rare.  

The the last one, the green cards, these are the mempool action cards. They're similar to instant actions and that they can do all kinds of different things, but these are the ones that get played into a mempool and don't happen immediately.   You have to wait until the end of the round. And then at the end of the round, whoever has the most hash power gets to mine a block.   If there's a tie or no one has any hash power, you do this process randomly.   But whoever mines the block gets to choose from all of the waiting minpool actions   which ones are gonna be included in the block, and that's based on the number of players. If you've got two players,   one mempool action will be mined in each block. If you've got four players, then three mempool actions will be mined in a block. It's essentially one less than the number of players.  

And so whoever's mining the block gets to pick from all of the waiting ones. And so, you know, they're likely to pick their own.   But if they don't have any, they have to choose from the remaining ones and and fill up the block. You can only mine an empty block if there's nothing waiting to to be mined.   So that's kind of a walk through of the different types of cards.   There's a 47   cards in the core twenty twenty five set.   We'll hopefully go to print here in the next couple of weeks as I mentioned,   and,   we're gonna do an initial print run.  

We'll probably go on a bit of a roadshow to various conferences and game shows and Bitcoin events and things and and try to sell that inventory out.   If we do that relatively quickly and it's it's pretty popular, we we may do a second print run of this set.   But probably around, you know, the end of the third quarter,   we'll stop printing this set. We'll start focusing on a set for 2026,   which will be similar to 2025.   We'll probably drop a few cards. We'll add a few new cards.   We'll change all of the artwork. We'll change all of the flavor text. So they're, you know, functionally the same card, but a new version for collectors.   And we may also start working on some expansion sets that we have,   ideas for that will not be an ongoing set like the core set. It'll be a single   print run of, you know, some, you know, probably smaller number of cards,   that are,   more thematic. So,   we've got a few ideas for maybe an art Bitcoin art based,   expansion set,   one called the Fiat Casino, which adds, you know, things like treasuries and bonds and stuff like that.  

And then, you know, we've we've got a number of ideas for other expansions. So,   if, the core twenty twenty five set is successful,   we'll continue making cards,   and, different   expansions and this ongoing   core set that will be available each year.  

[01:07:14] Unknown:

I think this is so much fun, and I love,   again, like, how you're turning,   you know, education and fun into something that's, of course, you can touch too. And that's what I think makes it really interesting. It's not just,   okay, everything's digital and it's over there. You know? Like, I think that makes it such   an   another layer of opportunity for different people to learn and have fun and play with this. So,   wow. Dude, you've been working on this for four years. This is incredible.  

[01:07:43] Unknown:

Yes. Just short of four years. We're we're coming up on four.  

[01:07:47] Unknown:

Oh my gosh. So okay. So everybody can find you on x at Bitcoin   CCG.  

[01:07:52] Unknown:

That is the game's   profile. You can follow it there.  

[01:07:56] Unknown:

We have a similar one on Nostr as well. Same same name. Okay. Awesome. And then you guys, whoever's not on Nostr, go check out Nostr. There's so many things you need to learn if you care about,   you know, decentralized   communication   that is uncensorable   and you can zap each other, which is also very cool. Yeah. Lightning is integrated into,  

[01:08:16] Unknown:

Nostr, which is great. It's so cool.   Adding adding money to social media has has been a really interesting experiment.  

[01:08:24] Unknown:

It has. I think, you know, the we had,   when I got to go to Austin, I think, you know, it was in December, and listening to Ainsley Costello who,   you know, her story about, like, oh, I was on Spotify for five years, and I made, you know, $50 or something ridiculous. You know? And she made, like, you know, $12,000   in eighteen months, you know, with just her fans' apps. And I think people don't understand,   like, how important it is to have that thousand true fans,   you know, like Kevin Kelly talks about. And so,   so definitely check out Noster if you guys don't know Noster. And,   there's really gosh. There's so many things. Like, I use Primal   and,  

[01:09:06] Unknown:

you know, there's obviously Amethyst. There's all sorts of, you know, great, you know There there are hundreds of Nostr apps at this point because, you know, each one   creates a slightly different experience for you. You've got ones that behave like Twitter. You've got ones that behave like Instagram. You've got long form blog post clients, and it's all the same communications protocol. It's all the same data.   It's just   the app is,   a different experience   Yeah. With   that wealth of data.   It's it's an amazing protocol. I I really think Nostr is social media's endgame Yeah. In in state, and it's,   yeah, if you're trying to decide, you know, whether to go over to Blue Sky or whether to go over to Mastodon because you don't like that Meta just did this thing and Elon just did this thing, just just skip all that bullshit and go straight to the end state and get on Nostra.  



[01:10:00] Unknown:

Yeah. And I think and and and one thing I would, you know, tell people who are new. Right? Because it's like people see, like, at NPUB and NSEC, and there's like, oh, gosh or whatever it is. They get nervous because there's so many letters and things, and they're just like, what do you mean I can't just name it kitty cat? You know? It's like, okay. It's no big deal. Just like we had the at symbol back in the day when we were learning about, you know, email,   it's so chill. And and   don't be afraid. But but what's neat, I think a lot of people don't get, like because, obviously, if you go sign up for, you know, a YouTube or a Twitter or a LinkedIn or an Instagram, like, you have all these separate logins.   You have all your separate social followers and your social graph.  

Like, that And you can be deplatformed and lose all of it. Exactly. And you own nothing. And so with Nasr, it's like you have one   identity, you know, and then you have all of the people that you follow and they follow you, and you can take them. Have multiple identities.   Well, you know,   if if you have somebody who likes to have green hair and go do fun things out there in the world. Like, we never talked about the color green, Dustin. Let's see. That's what you started with. I know. We never got there. Talk to me about green, my mother. Than what most people would expect. I just really like the color.  

[01:11:19] Unknown:

And, you know, mid high school or so, you know, I, you know, was was upgrading my wardrobe, and I realized, like, half my wardrobe is already green.   Let's let's just go all in. And so I  

[01:11:31] Unknown:

bought all green clothes, and I've been wearing nothing but green ever since. That's been, you know, thirty something years. So It's great. I mean, and you're I'm gonna pull you up here. Hold on. I wanna pull up your your website, your  

[01:11:43] Unknown:

Website screen.   Hold on. Wait. Make sure it goes up here. Basically, if I have a choice and and green is an option, it's probably  

[01:11:52] Unknown:

gonna   be   good.   Yeah. I think it's great. I mean, I know. I'm so grateful to to know you and and, like, I know we have our, like, little cyber little likes and shares and stuff. You know? And, obviously, we've gotten to meet each other in person a few times. I thought that was really special. And,   yeah, it's just like, what a cool community we've got, you know, that we can, you know, meet each other and talk about life. And   I'm just I'm stoked.   Any last words for people, like, you know, to to  

[01:12:22] Unknown:

learn about you, follow you, to go you know, obviously, go to not really. Most of my things can be found off the website you're showing right now, dustin tramwell dot com.   I've got my social media links up there.   Regarding the game, go check out, Geyser.   If you're comfortable spending some Bitcoin, you can preorder through there. If you wanna wait until it's available for, Fiat, that should be in the next   week or so. We'll have it up on the Rogue Signal,   ecommerce shop.   Rogue Signal is my gaming company that is the publisher,   of this game,   among others.  

And, yeah, that's that's about it.  

[01:13:02] Unknown:

Awesome. Well, Dustin, I appreciate spending   our Saturday evening together. Absolutely. I hope the folks that are listening got something out of this, and whoever's gonna listen to the recording get something out of it. And I'm really looking forward to seeing your game out there in the world. Do you have any,   are you doing any conferences? Should we look for you anywhere in the world?  

[01:13:23] Unknown:

I've just started planning out my, 2025.   I'm not real sure yet which of the events I'm gonna hit.   And which ones we'll have the game at depends on how quickly we get everything back from the printer,   if we're able to meet our our near term deadline and go to print here in the next couple of weeks or if something, you know, comes up and delays that.   Ideally, we'll have everything back from the printer   mid to late March and can fulfill the preorders then. And then whatever inventory is left, we'll take on a roadshow, and we'll,   go to, some of the Bitcoin conferences, some of the gaming,   and card collector   conferences, and things like that. So you'll definitely see us around if you're in any of those spaces,  

[01:14:07] Unknown:

and attend any of those types of events. Awesome. Cool. Well, hopefully, I'll get to see you somewhere on planet Earth this year. And,   For sure. Yeah. I look forward to it. Alright, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in, and make sure you guys go follow Dustin. You guys can go to dustintrammel.com   and all of the other,   links that I'm gonna put up here in the show notes for you.   And I I hope you guys have the best Saturday that you've ever had in your whole life, because you know what? It's the only one you're ever gonna get is today. So peace, love, and warm Aloha, and thank you, Dustin, for tuning in with us. And, we'll see you guys soon.  

[01:14:44] Unknown:

Bye.