Disorganized Productions "Chaos creates Harmony"

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In this mind-bending conversation, I welcome back researcher Nathaniel Gillis for his fourth appearance to dive deeper into necromantics, sigil magic, and the evolving nature of the paranormal. Nathaniel shares cases of subdermal sigils, ultraviolet-only markings, and reports of symbols moving from beneath the skin to the surface—suggesting rituals and phenomena that blur the lines between demonology, ufology, and hauntings. We explore how entities may hijack perception, trigger the observer effect, and project constructs—appearing as ghosts, aliens, or other archetypes tailored to the witness—raising profound questions about consciousness, possession, and whether we’re living inside a construct or simulation.

We also examine alleged “apports,” shifting isotopic signatures, CE5 encounters that follow people home, and historical threads from Kenneth Grant, Austin Osman Spare, Paracelsus, and Dr. Karla Turner. Nathaniel proposes a liminal species working alongside embodied practitioners, self-replication via ritual, and a phenomenon that seeks to be seen—potentially co-creating with us through our attention. This episode challenges assumptions across paranormal fields and asks a core question: are we observing the phenomenon, or is it using us to observe—and thus become—what we expect?

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[00:00:00] Unknown:

Skip me branch like squirrel, baby.  

[00:00:04] Unknown:

What we're dealing with here is a total lack of respect for the law.  

[00:00:30] Unknown:

Welcome fellow human to the disorganized productionist podcast,   the show that fuels your spirit,   ignites your potential,   and helps you become the best version of yourself.   I'm your host, Rob,   and each episode   will embark you on a journey to unlock the power within you. Tap into your limitless   potential   and conquer life's challenges.  

[00:01:07] Unknown:

Days of flavoring were  

[00:01:54] Unknown:

Ladies and gentlemen,   welcome to a new episode of Disorganized Productions.   This time is my fourth   returning guest, and I'm very happy to have him here.   He's gonna be blown up 100%   because this guy is amazing.   Please welcome with me   Nathaniel   Gilles.  

[00:02:20] Unknown:

Thanks for having me back, brother. It's good to be back, man. It's always a good time hanging out with you and, discussing the research.  

[00:02:27] Unknown:

Yes. Absolutely.   So for all the people that do not know you, shame on you people, but, who do not know you, please introduce yourself to the, to the audience.  

[00:02:38] Unknown:

So my name is Nathaniel Gillis. I am the founder of a new field called necrometics,   and I'm creating my own paranormal platform called parasymposia.   My research is centered around sigils, civilization,   and the self replication   of a species that I'm now studying.   I don't know what they are, but I do know I'm   I'm hot on their trail. How about that? Like, like, one of the Hardy Boys. Right? And so Oh,   yeah. That's a old old timer reference for those who are young or listening to the show. But,   that's my my research. I I do believe that,   there exists a species that has not been properly   characterized   by demonology,   And it's somewhere within the liminal state of being a practitioner of the occult and being an actual   entity.  

So it's one of something is there and I don't yet know which one we're dealing with.   But, yeah. So I usually deal with eKibyte cases and UFO abduction   accounts.   And,   since my early days of research, I've kind of evolved into, again, a new field called necrotnetics.   So that's who I am, and that's what I'm about.  

[00:03:55] Unknown:

Right. And for all the listeners that are listening right now to think like, what is this guy talking about? We did three episodes already.   We dived deep into a lot of subjects   and a lot of topics already. So check out these, these,   episodes.   Sigil magic. I think that's one of the things that a lot of people are not aware of,   how powerful   a sigil can be.   Right? But   Correct.  

[00:04:25] Unknown:

Yeah. And, the shocking the shocking point though, my friend, is you're not only correct,   it's that it's just a lot of people don't even know what we're talking about. And so it's like when we even begin, we have to set the foundation.   Then we have to ask the proper questions,   then we can get the right answers. And so it's literally taken me. I mean, I've been in the field for a while now, but it's taking me just to scrap everything I thought I knew   start from square one. And so I think it's a good place to be right now, at least.  

[00:04:54] Unknown:

Right.   So I know a little bit about Sigil Magic. If you look at the old runes, for example,   they use the runes with the,   with the power of the runes to go   find themselves some fertility   or go to war or whatever.   So they used runes back in the old Norse,   mystic stuff.   But sigil magic is not only the occult that's practicing it. I think it's also it's it doesn't   it doesn't go to one end. It it it's it's been practicing   for a long time by a lot of people. Right? So please go a little bit deeper into that. What does it   mean   to do Sigil Magic, and how does it work?  



[00:05:43] Unknown:

So there are two theories regarding sigil magic, and   one comes from Kenneth Grant, the other from Austin Osman Spar.   Austin Osman Spar,   theorized   that you could create a sigil within your mind. You could write it down,   focus your attention on it, and then you can internalize it with your mind. You can activate it with your mind, and then you forget about it. And then you would have the result of the ritual take place depending on what your intention was.   The other idea of a civilization,   came from Kenneth Grant and his theory again,   was that there are entities   either   discarnate   or at least in the afterlife on the other side that are coming through dreams and nightmares   and are actually projecting their sigils into this dimension onto experiences.  

And so I'm somewhere in the middle with all of that. I,   I do know one thing for sure   is that is that the argument that people are propping up to suggest that a lot of these symbols we're finding   are the results   of some kind of medical experiments. I I do not believe   that is always the case.   Mhmm. Reason being is because there is   profound amount   of paranormality   regarding the skin these symbols are in and on.   There is something supernatural. It's a lot of times it's inducing the skin cells into necrosis   where it's not, it's not just a symbol, but it's sometimes they're actually underneath the skin themselves.   Insane. I mean, I'm not gonna, I know how crazy this sounds, but we've actually ran tests on them. And so my point is that the   the sigils themselves, the symbols   are seemingly going through three stages   of of   initiation in the bodies of the experiences. And we're seeing some of them underneath the skin,   moving to the surface. And then at the very end, it almost appears as if they're burns.  

And so they'll feel a burning sensation. They won't understand what it is to look down and there's sybils underneath   the skin.   A good friend of mine,   who I'm researching with,   passed out a case of civilization   by an experience or where,   try to tattoo it over and try to take soap and wash it off. They would not leave.   So we actually had skin taken from his back and placed on his arm,   Indecidals   still appeared, my friend. They were still present.   So there's something supernatural   to what's occurring through these experiences.   And a lot of this research has,   been locked up in NDAs.  

They've been locked up behind closed doors within our federal government.   And   I'm coming from coming from Necronetics. What I can tell you is, yes, these are not just appearing to be sigils.   They're following the pathology   of sigilization on the experiencers.   And, so again, this is a subdermal aspect as well,   where if these are the results   of some kind of medical experiment, we have to explain the the paranormal aspect of it. How how are they underneath the skin?  

[00:09:02] Unknown:

Right. Is yeah. How do do we know   do we know if if   when that appears to a person that they do, like, black magic or occultism   or want these sigils? Or   is it something that's maybe been implanted by the soul,   by someone else   so it comes through   like like life curse?  

[00:09:26] Unknown:

Yeah.   Well yeah. And so early on in demonology, we look at these sigils or seals   as the   sealing of a covenant between an entity and a practitioner.   But as of late, I I'm seeing these again that I have another friend who's a doctor, and she's had a case where   a,   a music artist   had been performing rituals in order to gain access to inspiration in,   you know, like like, hit songs.   And, he was freaking out. And so here she goes to a an undisclosed location. It was a hotel,   like a five star, like a Ritz Carlton.   And, she goes into the boy room. Here he comes. He's got his whole entourage with him, his bodyguards.  

You know, I heard you're the one to talk to. She's like, yeah. You know, what's going on? He's like, well, I don't understand   a lot about this, but he's like, you know, I I wanted to be in the music industry.   And, I was I was kind   of molded and groomed into performing rituals to the synod.   And he's like, you know, yeah, I have a hit song now.   He's like, but I don't know what's going on. I have some kind of attachment. He goes, by the way, what are these symbols on my back?   Turned around and there were sigils   all over his back.  

Holy shit. Again,   I'm somewhere in the middle here. Be again, let me back up and preface that with us. The two philosophies, at least to my knowledge within the occult realms, was that okay, that these are projected there subconsciously   or within our dimension from entities beyond. Right? They're trying to   affect our reality by employing them against us.   Others   are actual practitioners that use them.   Again, like, they're gonna carve them and all that. So between the two, in other words, it's like between it it being a demon or a being   or an actual practitioner. I think there's something in between   in that liminal space in between the two beings   that we're dealing with. And I don't know what that is yet. I could tell you where I'm heading. I'm starting to look back at some of the old writings,   philosophy. One of Paracelsus had a theory that a lot of these,   sorcerers that they will have performed enough magic   to certain entities   that it it changed their their physiology. It changed their their their, like, their existence to where they begin to take on the characteristics of the entities that were conjuring.  

Wow. And if that is the case, now we're looking at evidence where   the conjuring itself may not even exist   to where it does appear that there are at least entities on the other side that are actually conjuring the conjuring   Conjuring the conjurers,   giving them the illusion of control.   Look this way. Go say this. Go look in the sky and do this. And now they're believing it's self initiated contact. It's not self initiated contact.   It's these   entities conjuring us, conjuring us to conjure them.   And then here we're having again, the sigils on   the skin. It's so, you know, I've had cases like that.  

One of the last cases I've had regarding that that,   pathology was somebody that worked with doctor Carla Turner. His family did.   And, I was told in no uncertain terms that that before doctor Carla Turner died,   she was starting to get into this kind of research   where   there was one experience that was not even taken laying down on a couch in a living room.   A biofield descends down upon her.   She wakes up about an hour later, tells the family she was abducted by aliens.   The problem was that she was covered from head to toe in sigils.   And so that was when I talked to Carter's last cases. And I have heard   from this experiencer   that she was getting into studying demonology and jian sorcery   mainly because of the the script they were they were finding on experiences.  



[00:13:24] Unknown:

So,   again, I don't know what we're dealing with,  

[00:13:28] Unknown:

but   one thing is for sure   that in antiquity and even in middle,   which are literature when we had,   symbols underneath eyelids and underneath the arms, those same symbols we're finding inside   of cheeks.   Oh. I mean, to where they're invisible, and you would have to actually take an ultraviolet light and shine it over the body, And then you see the glyphs   all over the arm.   So the paranormality   about these sigils regarding these sigils rather   cannot be   discounted because there's a lot of people that, okay, Nathaniel Gillis, you know, I'm a detractor.   In what you're saying. There's there's a there's a vibe with me. It's like, I don't I don't care. I'm not here to make friends. I'm really not. I'm here to get down to the research   and present it the best way I can to people who are in need of this data.  

So it's not just, again, the symbols themselves.   That's one thing. It's the way that they're underneath the skin   moving to a surface. That's number two. And number three, again, is the necrosis that's often forming around in the skin   to where we you could take a needle. And again, is what we see throughout all of of the folklore where you take a needle, you poke it, and it's none to the touch.   It it's changed.   Right. The skin on a similar level.  

[00:14:46] Unknown:

So if you look at cases like the sigils,   sigils have been been used for centuries, thousands of years probably by a lot of cultures and stuff like that. Is it nowadays   that it seems to have,   it's been more to the surface somehow?   It'd be because we have, of course, other ways to study the bodies, the   the necromancy, like the the bodies of the dead. We have different kinds of techniques   to see   that something is there that we didn't saw, like, hundred years ago, two hundred years ago?  

[00:15:25] Unknown:

Yes. So I am a proponent   of the following theory that the phenomenon is evolving according to our awareness of it. And there is no better explanation or example,   for the phenomenon doing that   than the following. And that is that the sigils,   the location of the sigils was would would evolve according to the fashion   of that time.   And so a long time ago, yeah, you would have underneath the armpits, underneath the eyelids. Right? You would see them on the skin because most of the time the skin was covered,   and you wouldn't see them. They would see them. And then the net so it's it's crazy because now, again, because of 2025 in our fashion, they're inside the cheek.  

The people that have them   won't even know they're there,   and the and the and the probability exists. This is where I'm just shoot from the hip here. The probability exists that even UFOologists,   if they don't have a background in this, they don't understand this. If they don't even believe in it for that matter,   they'll go into a home. And if in fact, they do get there in time, Rob,   they still probably won't understand what they're looking at.   And so this is where I even move on with okay. That's just symbols. Okay. What kind of symbols are they?   Right? Is it Theban alphabet? Like, what's going on here?  

And so that's why I I do believe that   some of the deepest, darkest research regarding the abduction phenomena   is centered around this, that these individuals, some not all, are being practiced upon, performed upon.   And that we are seeing the results of these rituals on their skin  

[00:17:03] Unknown:

in the Right. And what's the purpose? What's the purpose of,   you know, putting these sigils in in a living man or woman or whatever?   And when it goes   to the other world, to the other realm,   do they use them again? Do they have some power? Do they you know, what's the purpose   by doing that? Even if you are a normal person and you do not want to do sigil magic to get somewhere in life, like, you know, you wanna be a rock star or whatever.   But   what happens if you are just doing your normal life and all of a sudden,   yes. When an autopsy   comes, then they find this stuff. Like, what the hell is going on?  



[00:17:49] Unknown:

Right. It opens up a whole new can of worms.   I mean, my god. It's it's   I certainly did expect to be in the field doing this kind of work, you know, and I never wanted to. I never set out to. You know? Right. My first contact with civilization,   not just the word itself from Austin, Austin, and Spar, but from the very act of   centralizing someone was in the incubator. It was in hybridism.  

[00:18:14] Unknown:

And Just thinking about that. Right. Yes. I thought hybridism  

[00:18:17] Unknown:

was purely ufological.   No.   It's being rebranded as ufological,   but the same symbols again, the same act of civilization we're finding in UFO abductees are the same same sigils were the civilizations we're finding in incubi victims.   You know? And and I I I'm afraid that that ufology, at least the modern incarnation   is just been hijacked by people who, if they don't know this subject matter, they don't want to. Now I could tell you with a surety that there are people behind the scenes that know this. They're building altars altars to these beings, Rob. They're building altars to them. So they know that there is   some   kind   of   a sidded master,   you know, a divinized or even demonized entity out there   that's requiring   servitude and re and, you know, in exchange for technology.  

They have that model already.   And what I'm coming along with and and, again, I'm not the first one to, you know, Kenneth Grant had theorized a lot of what I'm discussing here. I'm not oblivious to that.   But we have to have these conversations because these experiences are are are going through it in real time.   And   I think that this is the next stage   of the field,   at least in this context, in this fringe niche topic of research.   And, it's the problem is, though, it's only gonna get more dangerous. I mean, if we're looking at doctor Turner,   when once she started getting into this area of the research, that that's when all hell broke loose.  

Oh, shit. Like, there was, like, for instance, one of her case studies,   had to do with hybridism, like, where, you know, these people were being impregnated and being taken.   And,   they were finding sigils on their bodies. So they would meet at a local,   house because I guess doctor Turner lived in conjunction near other experiences. They would meet like once a week together.   And, one of the experiences said that after they had sickles on their body,   that the phenomenon began to, port coins and money   just begin to fall in the living room out of nowhere.   Wow. So whatever we're dealing with, it's shattering, at least from my perspective,   shattering all models of the paranormal,   all of them.  

Even demon And our reality.   And our reality. And our reality. And our reality. And and demonology   sit here with the question going, well,   fallen angels can procreate   because the watchers in Genesis six could.   And then the same time that we're like, okay. Yeah. And demons do exist, and these are also demons. Well, that's not even   mythologically true.   Number one, according to their own folklore here, their own mythology, number one,   the one the entities that could procreate   are now chained in darkness. So they have the ability, but not the freedom.   So it's not them, Rob.  

Watch this. This is crazy.   And and those that are out here that we call demons are disembodied,   Nephilim.   So what's watch this. They they don't they have the freedom, but they don't have the ability because they're just spirits.   So even in that model of the phenomenon, it's like,   oh,   there's still a there there.   We just don't know what it is   because it has the freedom   and the capability   to procreate.   And what is that, my friend?   I'm looking at an embodied, not disembodied, an embodied practitioner   that's either self replicating an entity within him.   Right?  

I'm gonna I'm gonna go I'm gonna go copulate   that. Hopefully, I'm gonna, you know, create you a nice avatar to possess, and then the entity replicates through their body. Right? So you have a practitioner   who is willing, conscious, and able to procreate,   and he's the one. Again, this is why central magic was being employed in EQ by literature.   We had secretion Right. And central magic.   That,   again,   to me, I'm looking at an embodied practitioner that's working in conjunction   with the others.   And it's very possible that it's not just one practitioner,   but it's a species of them   that are working hand in hand with these beings.  

That's my best explanation for now. You know?  

[00:22:45] Unknown:

Yeah. We talked about it before, Nathaniel, just like   that there were   people practicing to,   you know, with even with the,   with the pregnancy of women that they want that baby,   you know, to implant   their stuff, their power to live on and to live on. Sounds like a supernatural thing, but it it happens all the time. So when you look back at what you said about the altars,   I know that one of the   the the guys that I know that did it was, of course, Aleister Crowley. He he did a lot of that residual magic too and with the altars and stuff like that.   But it was not like he invented it. He rediscovered   it from the ancient. I got goosebumps. Oh, thank you, baby. Oh, yeah. There's a light. But it's,   should should should we   no.  

Other question.   Not should we. We have to be aware   that there are people with some kind of knowledge   that could do this   to put another   maybe species in this world, another entity in this world by going through us   to   do the stuff. Right?   That's crazy, man.  

[00:24:08] Unknown:

It's yeah. Again, with Kenneth Grant's typhonian Thelema and his his kind of reintroduction of Thelema and   his editorial license, I should say, what he did with the tradition.   He also believed that   that whatever we're dealing with,   it once was perceived.   And again, this is what Steve Mayer and I have been looking at too. It's like, okay, there's it's evolving.   Right? The altars are deified entities in the past are now extraterrestrial   altars.   Right? And we and we also knew that, again, that these people were being civilized.   But again, that was within the model of demonology.  

And and Kenneth Grant comes over here in one of his books and he's like, yeah.   He's like, yeah. You know, in times past, they these beings were prayed to as a divine. Now they're gonna be prayed to as extraterrestrial.   And then he goes into the fact that   they have their, they have their own sigils.   They're employing sigil magic.   So, this to again, to my model of the phenomenon,   just   a a a a guy that, you know,   study incubi literature,   trying to understand my own paranormal experiences,   and then seeing sigils underneath the skin of eye eyelids and just it's   like, I had to throw away everything I thought I knew about the phenomenon and start from scratch.  

And I had to begin asking questions, not about folklore and mythology.   I had to ask myself, is it possible we've been hoodwitted by these entities the entire time?   Where where and how much of reality are they in control of, or how much of reality are they trying to gain control of?   I is this what's going on? Question. I have a a case study now, and I can't go too much into it, but it was a CE five practitioner.   And after this individual performed the c e five,   they were visited by beings.   It was not a good encounter.   It's not what they signed up for.  

But for the next few months, they kept seeing a symbol   in their vision.  

[00:26:28] Unknown:

Explain what a c at high.  

[00:26:30] Unknown:

C e five. C e five. C five. Oh, so okay. CE five. So that is according to Steven Greer. It's a self initiated contact experience.   That is when a person will meditate. They'll go through the c e five protocols,   and they'll go outside,   and they'll look up, and they'll try to make a conscious connection with the phenomenon.   And we see Bledsoe doing this as well, Chris Bledsoe.   And then the phenomena will incarnate, and they'll interface, and then they'll go home and think, you know, it's pretty cool, which, you know, honestly, if I was in that vein,   wouldn't it be amazing? You know, if you're looking for proof, then all of a sudden you have access to it. That would be pretty cool. Right. Unfortunately. Yeah. You know, I've had I've had people   I mean, I had one lady, which I'll get back to this other person, but I had a lady that this has been a two or three years ago, performed the c e five and a full bodied operation of an entity manifested in her home.  

We're like, the phenomenon didn't manifest to her during the c e five experiment.   It hijacked her consciousness.   It manifested in her home to her. And that's when she was like, this is not what we think it is at all. But getting back to this other individual, but the they perform the c e five protocols, and   they they're visited by these beings,   according to it was an earth shattering experience,   but then they kept seeing the symbol   in their eye, in their vision at all times, Rob.   They go to the eye doctor.   There's nothing here.  

Nothing here.   And and I'm going,   what?   They   and I'm I'm still   I'm still looking for the symbol. I mean, I have the drawing and everything, and I have the testimony and the met all that stuff.   But am I to believe? Right? Like, what what's going on here? What's actually occurring here? Again, the c five was successful,   but then the vision   is altered for the next few months. Only one eye, only the right eye, and only on the bottom. And then when they get   medically tested,   their eye doctor is like, yeah. You're perfectly fine. There's nothing here. I don't know what's going on. Why? Because it's paranormal.   It's supernatural.  

Right.   It's no different no different, if I may. I'm a it's no different than Mike Bautista, who's a new whistleblower   that Roles Coulthard interviewed recently,   who also performed CFI, and he was he had experienced this this phenomenon.   And and   these I don't think he's what CEFI practitioner, by the way. Let me back up to this. But when the phenomenon incarnated to him, this month, the point is   it's going through these various archetypes   in these these these these visions of it's fascinating where the image is fluid.   It's constantly changing. It's life phenomenon, Rob.  

And Wow. He's like he's like, as I'm interfacing with with the phenomenon,   which by the way, you don't have to practice CE five for the phenomenon to manifest to you. Let's just put that out there. Cause I don't want people to say, okay, you're talking about two different phenomena. I'm not.   My point though, is this man's testimony out of his own mouth. He said, I should have ran.   I would have ran,   but something captured me,   lowered me into some kind of brainwave activity to where I just didn't care to run away. I just wanted to stand here and watch.   And so the light phenomena is going through this very these various, like, a whole few there's a bunch of of of images   to him,   and he's there watching it. He's trying to we've heard this before in the field, trying to cut   the contact off. Can't do it. Can't. Can't. The phenomenon has hijacked   that conscious connection.  

Matter of fact, it was after his initial experience.   He starts having missing time.   And, one day he wakes up and there's a symbol on his body,   a circle   and three dots in the form of a triangle.   So,   again, I don't know what we're dealing with. I I'm not I'm nowhere near the, you know, the person that would say, hey, listen. I know everything. I don't. I'm   I just know that none of this makes sense   and that we should not be seeing this.   Well, it is. It really is, brother.   And   I'm kind of I really am an outlier in the field,   because I'm one of the guys where it's like, I don't really care what people think about me. You know? Again, I'm not here to be liked.  

I'm here to help people and hopefully understand the beta,   in a more perfect way. And, again, I I wanna say I don't wanna be like, oh, of course, everybody wants to be liked.   On here, so that at the end of the day, you know, like,   it is what it is,   and we've gotta be about the research.   But whatever we're dealing with,   you know, the data says that that they can manipulate reality   and or our perception of it.   And even with respect to materializing objects into this dimension,   I am starting to believe that some of the ports   are actually what we're calling implants,   and some of the implants are actually a ports.  

There's no again, the skin itself   is not again, it's under the skin. There's necrosis,  

[00:31:57] Unknown:

but it doesn't look like somebody just opened that up. You know what I mean? It's No. No. But it's like a portal. Yeah. It's like if you're using, like, here's my map to the other world.   Right? So it seems like, like, okay. If you wear some symbols   and you can do that with a necklace or with you don't have to do,   Sigil magic to get into that. You know? Right. If you use some symbols in life,   you could open portals.   And if you look at that kind of phenomena,   people are not aware what they what what they're wearing, and people do not aware what they, could encounter.   We talked about it before in in, I think, first or the second episode   about entities that take over   your beloved ones   completely the face, the the voice, everything.  

And you know that he's been deceited or whatever, but it's still there.   So is it the trick of the mind?   Or is it that we give them,   you know, the power to take over our consciousness   once we use this kind of sigils?   And just like you mentioned before,   just like you mentioned before, if you're studying this stuff,   it could be that you will be   involved with it, that you're going to be used as a portal to whatever.  

[00:33:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this comes all the way back to the foundation of our existence. What is consciousness?   What is it? You know? I mean, I could tell you with a surety that what we're discovering in the field now is that what we're seeing with our eyes is not always what's there.   So we're being blinded by our own vision. And if we've used our vision to determine entire fields of research   and what we're seeing is not real,   You see?   I mean, like, okay. Getting back into, like, the observer effect and how, you know,   the collapsing of the light, all that.  

What we're seeing now again is, like, in prior psychology in in times past, we would see,   like, apparitions and full bodied apparitions. They'd be walking around.   And in ward Arbox work, they would actually set up a camera here and they would look and they'd be, oh, there's the apparition again. Let's look at the camera.   They didn't see an apparition on the camera. They saw a ball of light.   What they saw with their eyes without the camera   was an apparition   with the camera, a ball of light.   And so what they looked at was the the vocation   of the apparition   relative to the look to the location of the ball of light.  

And they realized that the ball of light would always follow the apparition.   We just saw the apparition, never the ball of light. What that means was the phenomenon was projecting a physiological   construct.  

[00:34:47] Unknown:

Like a hologram?  

[00:34:49] Unknown:

A hologram.   And we're thinking that's dear Edna or, of course, that's a malevolent haunting or that's this. That's a dare I say, oh, that's a demon too because why it has horns and hooves. But what we're capturing on camera is completely different.   It's something else. It's a lot closer to the source of what we're what we're experiencing.   So it's no different. I mean, okay. But let's say this. That's in hauntology.   We're experiencing the same thing in ufology now.   We're like in the c or the the the sky watcher   narrative where they're out there and they're they're looking at this object that they're they're capturing something completely different on camera.  

So we know the phenomenon   can manipulate our perception of it.   But how deep does that manipulation   of our perception go?   Because if I'm a pure psychologist and I'm trying to prove the existence of the afterlife,   and I'm basing all of my data on the presence of apparitions   and my communication   with them. My research is done   because we found out something else, my friend.   The same orbs that can project the physiological construct   are now being seen hovering over   radio, like, recorders.   Right? Projecting   EVPs into the technology.   So   what do we really have here, ladies and gentlemen?  



[00:36:14] Unknown:

Is this may prove that we're reliving in a simulation?  

[00:36:20] Unknown:

Oh,   it's yeah. It is definitely construct. It has to be a construct.   Again, I know people are gonna say, well, you know, they're demons. That's fine. But the Bible does say the things that were seen are made by the things that are unseen.   So there's an invisible world out there   that does exist.   But, you know, in getting back to buried Steve's research, they're heroes in the field   to me. And it's just it's incredible how my research kind of aligns up with them seamlessly. It's insane, really.   But they had cases of of the construct manifesting its presence.   Like, just   materializing objects in the homes.  

They didn't purchase the objects.   Right? They didn't they didn't bring them home from church or from the YMCA.   They just showed up.   Where did this come from?   You know, they had they had two other cases that all kind   of lead us to another theory I'm working on. But, you know, where,   husband and wife are fighting and there is this, figurine that's moving   on a table.   And, one of them gets mad, grabs, I believe it was her husband, walks out the front door, throws it out, shatters,   goes back inside the house. It's right back on the table where he got it.   The phenomenon had replaced it.  



[00:37:43] Unknown:

Wow.   And we are talking also   also about things that were   talked about and it showed up afterwards   with the staff.   Yeah. Mhmm. Just like so   Yep.  

[00:38:00] Unknown:

So, well, what they were doing though is, again, the the phenomenon does not waste any effort   at all.   I'm not I'm starting to not believe in the trickster phenomenon. I don't believe that's a thing anymore.   I think it's a lot like the poltergeist activity where people didn't really have a good grasp on the phenomenology and just made stuff up or, you know, there's two kids in the house. There were two entities haunting the woman, so I guess it's a projection of her cut. No.   No.   What what we're looking at again is the manipulation   of our reality   and our perception of it. So which one are we dealing with when we're dealing with it? Is it my perception or is it reality itself?  

That's a fine line. But my point is that when Barry and Steve got into these homes, they started looking at the phenomenon of what he was doing. Right? It would just manifest stuff. Or in one case,   they had a a family that had a bought purchased, I think, three or four coffee mugs.   One of them went missing,   and,   they couldn't find it for the longest time. They searched everywhere.   And then one day, they found it. Like, I think it was in the kitchen, and it includes where they've looked for it all the time. You know, they would have passed it every day.   It just shows up.  

So Steve, he's like, you know, there's something wrong with this. The I know the phenomena doesn't waste anything.   No no energy is wasted with this intelligence.   And, he takes it to a laboratory,   puts it through a series of tests, and and he notices that the isotopic ratio   of the coffee mug they gave us, gave them, was different than the rest of the coffee mugs that they came in the box with.   Different. Different. Different.   And so that's when their research   evolved, and it's something I'm telling you, it's it's, in my mind, the best research being done   is,   they started having other manifestations where these reports would just show up out of nowhere,   and they would remove it from the home. They would take them and place them in a safe space, you know, nobody touch it, lock and key.  

The phenomenon would complete completely dissipate. The family would call them and say, hey, man. You guys have changed our lives.   You know, the paranormal is no longer in our home. And they said, no. The phenomenon is triangulating.   It's searching   for the port   it materialized   in your home.   Oh my   And that's what happened. They returned the port and the phenomenon   connected to it.   Manifestation started occurring. So the problem is we don't know how much of reality the phenomenon has replaced.  

[00:40:39] Unknown:

Yes. And we see nowadays   more and more people going on a hunt   for haunted houses and stuff like that, and they record the stuff that's happening.   You know, in the beginning of the Internet twenty years ago was, like, people with a with a fish line doing stuff like, you know, here's my content.   Nowadays, you can see the stuff   unfolding in front of your eyes. So, you know it's present, but what the hell is it? And we talked about it briefly, just briefly.   I had this theory coming up about,   you know, hunting haunted places,   about maybe   and it's just it's it's just, completely   hypothetical.  

But maybe   it's been haunted   when people,   are already taken out of life, but they shouldn't at that time. So they kinda stuck.   So if you go you live your life, and and the big plan says, you know, you're gonna die with 80 years old, but you've been murdered by 40 years old.   You are stuck because you can't go over   over the pond, you know, something like that. And we were briefly talking about that. But what can you say about that when it comes to these kinds of things? Oh my god. Well, one thing we know for sure, the field, is that this phenomenon  

[00:42:03] Unknown:

employs aggressive   and at times parasitic.   It will appear   I had a conversation with, an ecologist the other day that blew my mind because he studies   number one, he studies pathology, but he studies entities.   Right? The biology and the seeds. Fascinating.   And we got on the subject of   parasitic,   aggressive parasitic, and predatory   menaquin.   And I was corrected, by the way, because I was I was   well in red to say, okay. It seems like it's parasitic mimicry. No. No. No. It's predatory. I got correct. I was like, oh, okay. That's fine. Oh, I agree, though. Right. Right. I'm like, oh, blocked it. Yeah.   And the reason we're looking at this is because   we know the phenomenon   can mimic the deceased   because it's playing dead.  

We've seen that before.   We know it can replicate environments. It will look like it the environment that it's in. We've seen that before. We've called it in the middle of manifestation or materialization   where I I had one case   where a shadow figure   it looked okay. It looked like a deer   and it was in the shadows. This is crazy.   Where   according to the guy in this case study,   this, this young man, he was about 12 years old. He's he's at home. It's like his first time his parents let him stay home by himself. They went out to dinner. He's there.   And, he's like, look, man, he's like, I was a mature kid. You know, he's like, I'm just hanging out. You know? He goes,   I'm looking. And he says, on my street, there are lights.  

And he said, but they only showed up out of nowhere. So it'd be dark, dark, darker than light, light, light. He goes, and I see this deer. And he said, two legs are in the light.   And he said, next thing I know, it's it it turns dark. It turns into a shadow person and just walks away.  

[00:44:09] Unknown:

So   I don't know what to make of that, honestly.  

[00:44:13] Unknown:

My point though is that when we're looking at shadow figures,   we   could possibly be seeing the partial manifestation   of a being.   Not an it's not a whole species of shadow figures. No. It's partially   manifesting   into this dimension.   But my point is is this, that when you're dealing with the ports and the materializations   out of nowhere,   we it's not just, again, it's not just in hauntology.   We've seen that in demonology. Now within within the context   of these cases,   it was the fact that, okay, you're investigating my haunted house. Right?   You're trying to get rid of these beings.  

These beings do not want to be exorcised, wink, wink, wink, from this location.   So what it will do is replicate   an a port.   It will manifest something to anchor its presence to   because it doesn't want to leave.   Now in demonology, we've had that in possession cases.   And just like the homes were possessed by entities that didn't wanna leave, so it was these demoniacs   were too.   And now the same manifestation   occurs   where   right before they are forcefully   depossessing that body, they will begin to   a port   objects   that do not belong   in that environment   and not in the body.  

What's it doing?   It's a porting materializing   objects through the mortal portal   into this dimension.   So that while it may have to dispossess that body, it doesn't have to   right disconnect from this environment.   And we've seen it in demonology.   So   in my mind, this is the same mechanisms.   They are whether the same mechanisms.   We don't quite know what's going on.   But in in the few things that we do know of   are deeply disturbing.   And, that it's really where I'm at, brother. So   and as you could tell, I'm losing my voice, man. It's,   it's been a wild ride.  



[00:46:21] Unknown:

Oh.   It must be frightening to to discover   all the times when you're studying things that you have to go back to scratch   You figure out more things about   Yeah. Probably   weave into our reality   and about our understanding,   like, the realms that there are. I mean,   thousands of years, a lot of cultures have been talking about several realms and several entities and stuff like that. You can see still them on,   cathedrals and stuff like that. And just like, oh, it's fiction. These people were crazy. No.   What if these inventories.   Really were   there? Why would you,   if you are sculpture,   and you make this beautiful women, this beautiful men, and blah blah blah blah, you are in a church, and you look at all these   demons that are, you know, from the Kargul until the the the devils and all that stuff. Why would you make that up   without   being the notice   that you have nowadays from, like, the Bible there of demons and angels?  

This goes back thousands of years, and they pointed out   figures that we still can't grab our heads around   nowadays.   Why would you make something like that up? And it goes back to cultures and cultures   that are living across this this globe or whatever the fuck   that are   thousands of miles   distance from each other, but still point out the same beings.  

[00:47:57] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Boom. It's the it's the same phenomenon, brother. It's a safe phenomenon,   and it masquerades   as something else.   And then but once you get down to the root system, it's it's the same soil, same nutrients. And yet again, it's gonna be the same branches of the same tree.   Right. Because   of the magical   mechanisms   being employed.   And this is why the argument is no longer, okay. Are they doing this? We yeah. We have it. We have the evidence.   We know they're doing this. We and, again, we don't know how. Like, we don't know the mechanics behind it. We may know the process. It's fine.   But we still don't know the laws that they're employing or they're they're stepping into.  

But it does appear that we're we're living in a construct and that   this is,   again, along   more along the   Kenneth Grant   model   as well as the Collins elite model.   And it I'll tell you what's crazy about this is, again, when you get into mainstream   materialist ufology,   they don't they don't really read anything by Kenneth Grant. They don't and they especially don't like Collins Elite research, And yet both of them were like and for different reasons, by the way, but they both said, yeah, there's something out there outside the construct.   In whatever they are, they're influencing this world   through ritual.  

And so I'm somewhere in the middle of all that, trying to find my own space. Right. And it's, it's,   it's, it's complicated, you know, and at the same time though, it's interesting because   the way my mind works is if I find something that fascinates me,   you you just leave me alone. You won't hear from me for a long time.   And this Right. Has fascinated me lately, you know? Because again,   if someone were to try someone would've, like, tried to pigeonhole me and say, okay, Nathaniel,   what do you really think we're dealing with? I would say it's somewhere between   a formerly human being   and some some one of them or something that took on the characteristics   of the entities   that conjured them   to conjure them.  

So we're dealing with people that were perhaps recruited by the phenomenon.  

[00:50:12] Unknown:

I swear to god. There are, what was it? 20 no, 52   miles   of old books   in the Vatican.   I swear to God, if there's one person in this earth, on this earth,   that needs to get access to all these   real good stuff books, it's you, man. Because I think they know.   They know it all. I've been seeing I love this channel. My lunch break My lunch break about old history, Tartaria, all this stuff. But not only that.   What really fascinates me is that   almost every church   is been built on   old,   graveyards.  

[00:50:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. She just   Mushroom. Like Yeah.  

[00:51:02] Unknown:

Yes.   Because, like   but they they   they got the church   built after they found the,   Necropolises?   Like, why would you build   a church,   a a place to worship your whatever god   on dead people.   So what's the connection with that? And why the Vatican   has all these books   and all of a sudden all these, you know, organizations turn up like, oh, we excavate and and and the the whole history is   completely wrecked.   But what do they find there that brings us more into the knowledge that we want to know   what's rally   really happening here.  

[00:51:53] Unknown:

It's   well, let's put it where it's at.   We do know that sinister of amino   ran into an entity that he tried   to say was a demon,   But   everything he did again, people gotta under understand what I'm saying here.   Everything that he did to define what a demon was in times past, and everybody agreed with them. Oh, by the way, you're right. That's demon. It's like, cool.   Now he goes to use that same template   to define whether or not this is a demon,   and it fell apart.   What are you   exactly?   And he was like, oh, it won't work on me. Just, you know, you have a good night and just walked away.   It was a thing,   a thing.  

And so again,   what are we dealing with here, Nathaniel? I think we're dealing with a species   that has masqueraded as horns and hooves because it doesn't really want us to know   who it is. What it is. Oh, who it is. Again, if it could procreate,   we got a problem in our demonology.   So again, the straw man that says, well, they were fallen angels. Yeah. But they're bound.   Again, we're getting back to the argument. Right? The argument of, yeah, it has the ability, but not the freedom. The other one has the freedom, but not the ability.   And what people say, okay, Nathaniel, can spirits take form? Sure. But they can they procreate with the mortal?  

No.   That, again, pure consciousness.   So   right down the middle of this argument, I'm looking at this going, uh-oh.   Uh-oh. Because   hybridism is still occurring.   Now Mhmm. If Genesis six   was about who and how,   right, they fell, they caught the movement, but we got a problem because that would mean that angels are still falling.   It   can't   right? And so that's as a demonologist, I'm like, no. We've gotta we've gotta, you know, back up on this and look at it objectively and say, alright.   Is it possible that we have a species of practitioners of the earth   that's working with these beings?  

That's the best explanation.   Dude, dude. And whatever they are.  

[00:54:16] Unknown:

Dude, I just got something like, oh, oh, okay. Hold on. So   I know that people that are   getting into the haunted places and they wanna talk to entities or spirits,   they ask them like, okay. If you need my source of, like, a battery,   my lamp, or my camera, you can express yourself through it.   What if   because we are batteries too.  

[00:54:45] Unknown:

There we go. What if We are We are We are We are consciousness.   Yeah.   So let me throw this at you, bro. You might flip you might flip out over this brother. Okay? He just threw me for a loop, and I, when I when I got it, I was like, uh-oh. And it that that's it was heavy.  

[00:55:02] Unknown:

But  

[00:55:05] Unknown:

I believe that we're some of what we're dealing with, at least the archetypes, the phenomenon is incarnating,   right? Where it's okay. It's the apparition. It's not, it's, it's a construct on the part of the orb,   but there is   a, some kind of an effect that we have on the phenomenon when we observe it.   Some people would call it the observer effect. Right?   But   again, the phenomenon is almost seeking to be seen.   So it, once it is observed by us, it will hijack our consciousness   and contort itself into this archetype.   Now, if we didn't see that phenomenon, it would not have manifested as an archetype because it needs to be observed,   right,   in order to be constructed.  

Follow me. Right. So that's why I'm I'm to the point now where I believe that, we are not seeing ghosts because they exist.   Right.   Ghost exists because they're being seen.   We are observing the phenomena,   and the phenomenon says, thank you for observing me. I'm gonna create this archetype.   And you're gonna go home thinking that I'm real. It's not. It's the byproduct   of me observing   the phenomenon.   For instance, again, the observer effect. If you had   this is deep. Right? So here's the thing. We have, cases of the phenomena manifesting to multiple witnesses at the same time, and none of them agreeing on what they saw. Why?   It's tailored to two things, their neurology and their consciousness.  

It could be   we could   be observing   the same entity,   but collapsing it into different manifestations   at the same time. Cause it's based upon our observation   and on our neurology,   That's  

[00:57:00] Unknown:

Sash the ending itself.  

[00:57:02] Unknown:

Different forms of collapsing.   This is why my friend, I have a case now.   I have a case now I'm working on. I'm gonna have to bring more data out,   but,   twins   born of the same womb,   identical twins,   kind of the psychic connection thing.   One's abducted by aliens.   The other one's abducted by ghosts.   What's going on   here? This is why the mind. The perception of the mind. The observation.   Right? And I do believe, again, this gets back in the CFI movement where, yeah, we're self initiated to contact. No. No. No. What the phenomenon's doing is I wanna incarnate. Come look at me.  

[00:57:53] Unknown:

What's   of me.   And the the the thing is, does it if it feeds on fear, like an emotional fear of the body of your soul, then it could be turning into a demon like we see like demon with or whoops. Absolutely. You know? I Or if you are afraid of alien, then it will manifest itself as an alien because it it gets your energy because you're afraid of that kind of stuff.  

[00:58:19] Unknown:

Right. But it well, at the end of the day, it will do what it wants to do. Right? It'll do what it wants to do.  

[00:58:25] Unknown:

And it just do what it wants to do. Right. Can It is stole.  

[00:58:30] Unknown:

It is fundamentally   independent   of us,   but it's hijacking our consciousness   to incarnate.   Again Wow.   Okay.   I I'm not seeing ghosts because they exist.   Ghost exists because I see them.   Why?   Phenomenon.   Again, c five. Nathaniel.   Yeah.   I'm gonna be right outside. Why don't you come look at me and help me manifest, would you? Sure. And then we go back saying it's a self initiated   contact. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Someone   baited your gaze   and said, I need to be observed to incarnate.   Could you come over here and help me? Can you cocreate   this, this manifestation?  

Sure. Wow. And that's what it was. Now  

[00:59:23] Unknown:

you're too the projector of the simulation.  

[00:59:26] Unknown:

Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Wow.   Yeah. I've just I'm riffing now. I'm riffing now. So I'm just just cutting loose and shooting from the hip here. But, you know,   you know, I that's why I think that a lot of the paranormal has to be   understood through this lens. No pun intended. I mean, we have to   because, you know, a lot of, hauntology   is the phenomenon   getting our attention in homes,   draining us of energy,   weaponizing   our consciousness against us, and then and then spreading out   like a possessive   pathogen   throughout. Mhmm. I mean, in entire environments,   you know, the field has tried to articulate it the best they can. Well, that's the hitchhiker effect. There's no hitchhiking.  

You can consent to that. It's the the utter corruption   and hijacking of consciousness we're dealing with. You know, even Jackie Hernandez was doctor. Yeah.   Yeah. Completely different. It's a it's a predatory   parasitic   species   that has hijacked   consciousness.   You know, again, back to bird Taft's case study with Saint Peter haunting with Jackie Hernandez,   same mechanism, same methodology where   Ponder was seeing these corpuscular balls of light, the size of basketball. So they're floating in the homes slowly   and they cornered one of them in a room   and the ball goes, boop, boop, boom, An apparition of a man is now looking at them.  

And when that happened, doctor Taft's assistants hit the floor. They all fainted. Boom.   It triggered something within them. Right, where I'm the only one. You're the only one that's gonna witness this. The all the others are just gonna pass up.   And so here he is interfacing with this alleged   ghost.   Maybe not.   And it's projecting a physiological construct. Right? It's   there. The you know, it it's animated. It's looking at them.   That same intelligence   is now   UAP.   We have whistle blowers coming forth. One of them is Dylan Borland   who mentioned in his, his testimony,   congressional hearing, I believe it was,   where he sees these balls of light, these this light coming towards him. And then from the ball of light came this construct of a triangle UAP   emerged  

[01:01:53] Unknown:

from  

[01:01:57] Unknown:

ball. So what's going on?   It appears that these balls of light, once they're observed, they have the ability to trigger the observer effect to manifest an archetype or physiological   construct.   And I believe a 100% that it's done this with the intention   of diversifying   its identity in our eyes.   Mhmm. Right? I'm gonna create many aliases.   I'm gonna be everything   to be all things to all men. Why?   Because all the, again, let me summarize it like this.   In the movie, the Mothman prophecies,   John Klein gets a phone call for an injured cold.   John Klein has a a thousand questions as as would anybody, of course, including me.  

One of them was, what do you look like?   And and Indrid Cold says   it depends   on   who's   looking.   So   yeah.   Sure. There have been days where I've been hiding underneath my desk. Yeah. This stuff's heavy, and, you know, it's it's like I don't know what to do with a lot of it,   other than, you know, talk to my mentor   and just   shelve it.   But yeah, whatever we're dealing with has hijacked consciousness and it, in effect, may have even hijacked reality.   Wow.  

[01:03:25] Unknown:

It goes so deep, dude.   The thing is, this goes so deep because   every time we we we we talk,   we bring up some topics like I said before. And every time   you dig deeper into some things and you   investigate them and you got new answers to well, probably answers to the things that we we are incurring, right, that that we're seeing.   And every time and that's what I love talking to you, you know,   The the things that I can   dizzy my mind goes out, and we we we we   oh, man. That and and I love to look at, you know,   people that are going in in haunted houses or they go to the forest and then cure some stuff.  

But it's, I think it's already been there, but it depends on where you are on the location and   what do you want to see from the veil. Right? So you would you wanna lift it up. And some things are just like, okay. I'm right here.   So deal with it. And it could be   it could be a shadow person. It could be like a poltergeist. It could be so many different things   that are having   a conscious   thing   and   a way to   develop,   probably   more developed than we are because we're figuring out life while we're living, like,   let's say seventy years, eighty years, and then we didn't figure it out. But these entities,   these things   are thousands   of years old, and they know and they it seems like they're going to,   manifest earlier, manifest   better,   do more   you know, they're growing. They they're much more growing, and they they find more, let's say, vessels   Yeah. To   to to,   gain more power, it seems.  



[01:05:32] Unknown:

Yes. Yeah. We do seem to be some kind of power source for them,   but I wanna highlight a nuance here because   just thought of it. It's a good reason.   But we are talking about an entity or entities that have the ability to trigger the observer effect at will.   Alright. Let me say that again.   They could actually appear to us at any way and then to go to the default method   and just be like, okay, whatever you would okay. That's what I'll be.   So imagine having that much control.   Again, that's not even about perception of reality. That's about reality.   Alright. And there was some mechanics. That's that's beyond quantum mechanics where something could say, yeah. My default mode perhaps would just be the observer effect. And and, you know, maybe if I get bored, I don't really wanna play this role. I'll just you know what? Come here.  

And then okay. That's what it'd be. And I'll do that. You know? The default mode, the setting, the and the phenomenon   to where it's so outside of the construct   that even the rules we think they follow   again are   default settings to which they can manipulate us even outside of that.   So,   you know, honestly,   it it does make me sound mentally insane. It does.   But I I get it. Honestly, I do get it. I I just think that,   again, it took me a long time to get here, and I know that there are others in the field that are   infinitely more intelligent, more credentialed, and more gifted than I am. Yeah. And they're saying the exact same thing,   and we're all connecting and we're going, oh, no. This is not what we thought it was at all.  

There's something else here, you know, that is perhaps alien,   that may have even that some of them may have even been born within the construct, Bob.   And they figured out a way to leave it.   So it's just,   it's a super,   it's super interesting brothers. But, now Here's a question for you. I'll I'll be the interviewer for a second, buddy.   Compare this research to our last conversations.   Is this not crazier? It's crazier. Oh, oh, yes.  

[01:07:51] Unknown:

Yes. And every time when I when we're looking at something or I hear something, I'm I'm gonna connect the dots that   that   what was brought up in the podcast and and about my own belief system, about some things. And then all of a sudden, like, wow.   And I just like to see, like, creepy videos and stuff. I love to see that because I'm really fascinated by the thing. I don't wanna encounter themselves,   you know, like, I I don't wanna have these demons around me or whatever. But the thing is, what fascinates me   is, and we talked about it before, it goes back thousands of years. It's been documented   thousands of years. So what is it?  

Do we have to be   aware   that this kind of   entities   are   within us, still around us, and gaining more power to get through us because we are the batteries ourselves.   So when they gain more power,   what are they gonna do with it? You know, what's the purpose   about doing it? Because some people have, you know,   somebody they love, the the deceit,   and then all of a sudden, they they they they see a shining light in a in a in a in a in the room. And and, you know, you have a brilliant experience.   But the others are just frightened and stuff happening around them because   somehow   this just like you said, it's it's not like you are a cap and they get in the back. No. No. They steal the cap, and you're sitting in the back.  

Right. That's good. Different.  

[01:09:31] Unknown:

That's different. Way different. It's way different. They're not any other room. They're outside of the building.   Way different. Way different. And and it's almost as if they're hijacking our consciousness to create reality.   You know, again, it's like, well, if the observer effect   what okay. What would the observer effect mean   if it's my eyes, but their vision?   What is possession, really?   Who is observing?   Right? And   Right. Who are willing?   What is the purpose of who is talking?   Yes. Yes. Could be my eyes, but it's certainly their vision.  

[01:10:12] Unknown:

Well, it could be your vessel, but it's the entity that's that's doing the thing. Right? That's the research I'm doing right there, bro. Holy   shit.  

[01:10:22] Unknown:

It's,   and that's really some of the heaviest stuff.   But, again, I think that we need to revisit the possession narrative and say and strip it from the dogma and say, okay.   What was this before we were told what it was? Like, before it was dominated by the conjuring and,   you know, stuff that was kinda more along the lines of just Hollywood   theatrics.   What were they really doing?   You know? And and does possession play a role in the observer effect? What what is that? And, you know, again,   getting back to the possession narrative in in manufacturing of consent,   I've I've long believed, and then I have evidence of this even now that when the phenomenon manifests to you, it's because it's tried to manifest through you at the same time.  

And in a way, it can become the observer that   helps itself construct the archetype.   And then at some point, it now becomes self seeing.  

[01:11:20] Unknown:

Mhmm.  

[01:11:22] Unknown:

Self observing and we're co creating it.  

[01:11:26] Unknown:

What's mind boggling for me is, I I don't like Hollywood, but they seem to tell   every single time with their movies   things that let let's say they know,   and they wanna project it to us,   to our reality   within a movie.   How many things that you see in the movies   are the real deal?   I mean, there's so many movies, like,   that that you can   pitch point to this, everything.  

[01:11:59] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.   I,   you know, the movies that really   capture my imagination are not the conjuring, and it's not like   Raul beating that series at all. I'm just saying,   and, you know, it's not like the the more   haunted movies.   There are movies like dark city   Mhmm. Where and I've mentioned this. I've actually done   lectures just on dark city. Imagine that, which is pretty cool. It's like, oh, yeah. By the way, it's,   but again, and this is more along of Kenneth Grant's research,   my own and,   Colin's elite.   Even in a lot of its gnostic where you have a species that's performing ritual magic to bend and mold a reality   according to the observation   of the human race.  

And so, yeah, again,   I am confident now when we're looking at the other end of these sigils on skin,   that these be people are being performed upon in another dimension,   and we are seeing the results of the ritual in flesh.   And that is being reinterpreted   as the UFO abduction phenomenon.   You know, the oldest demonological argument was okay. Were you abducted at all?   Because there was no evidence at one time, at least there was no evidence of bodily abduction.   And the reason people believe that bodily abduction   was because there were skin anomalies on the body.  

There, if I, you know, if we have cases that we do where people are being taken out of their body   and we're finding sigils underneath the skin to the surface,   anybody would come back, See where I'm going?   Anybody in their right mind would say, of course they were taken with their body. Why? Because it's the the symptoms are in their body. I'm like, no, that's not necessarily true. It doesn't have to be true. It's proven to be untrue at some cases.   So what is being taken out of the body?   Wow.   This is my, this is like my most ADHD episode ever brother. It has to be.   But, what is being taken out of the body because it appears to be soul first and skin second.  

So what is what is being performed upon,  

[01:14:15] Unknown:

right, could be both. You know? I don't know. I'm just saying that it's, And what's the purpose? Again, what's the purpose of but because when you said the the incubator, the succubator, I I can imagine if if let's say you have a Yeah. You have a stamp, like, that's only be shown by UV light.   And   the entity,   wherever that   is, is gonna mark you,   and you're gonna put into the grave, but the entities   right?  

[01:14:45] Unknown:

They   see are not good answers, brother.   Right. I mean, the only time you've seen that kind of activity is with serial killers who would wanna mock the victim of the their victim so they can go back up and look at it afterwards and say, okay. This is me.   Then that's the,   it's sick stuff. I mean, when you're looking at it again   and I'm just gonna say this   because I know this to be true.   There have been abductees   that have hatched script on their bodies and went to work and have not eaten them.   They wouldn't have.   Not until you get somebody who is a real abductionist,   who has an understanding of phenomenology, knows what to look for,   then they're put underneath ultraviolet light   or they're and then all of a sudden you see it.  

That's and I don't care what anybody says. You know, we we can talk by aliens all day long.   Sure. Aliens that follow the bio civilization of Austin Moss McSpire,   of Kenneth Grant's philosophy.   So I I'm I'm to the end of the road with with ufology as a whole,   Because, again, if we're dealing with   phenomena that may not be real,   like, that may be a real physiological   construct.   Mhmm. But it's not what it appears to be.   Then we're not studying UFOs.   We're not studying ghosts.   Right? What we're really studying is an intelligence that wanted us to believe that.   Right.  

But it's really not. It's   not a good feeling, Greg.  

[01:16:26] Unknown:

No.   How do you sleep, man?  

[01:16:31] Unknown:

I'll be honest with you, bud. I,   I don't know. I mean, I,   I go through really bad, bad, bad periods   of just   burnout depression.   Femininity by desk nights sometimes just to get away from it all.   Right.   I say sayings,   but it's like, you know,   it's a lot of Deep man.  

[01:16:56] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a lot of work, but it's it's a lot of work that you   it's still fascinating,   and it it grabs your mind, literally.   But you you you you you want to find the answers, but the deeper you dig,   the darker it all gets. Right?   That's like  

[01:17:17] Unknown:

Yeah. You you keep you yeah. It's just you know, but I tell you what, man. I, I have good people around me. I have a good,   a good structural system around me. I have good mentors in my life   that,   that I'm working with and research that have actually, you know,   brought me up, you know, like emotionally, you know, just like, I'm like some nights or some days I'm like, Hey, man, you know, I'm like, look, okay, you're about to, you know, you're about to discover this and then you know what I mean? It's worth it. Hang in there. This is what we're all going through now. And, you know, we're getting some some answers, but more or less, we're more or less, we're just getting questions, but there are more accurate questions.   Right. And that's really what it's worth. What it's it's worth it. You know? It's worth it's worth it all.  



[01:18:05] Unknown:

Thanks, Peter. Yeah. So that that that's the oh, man. That and I I told you from from the beginning from episode one, so fascinating.   Also with the Sigil magic because   the way I look at the world right now is completely different. Not only by the interviews or podcast to do with you, but also my own interesting,   like, you know, the stuff that interested me. But if I look in the early days at music and how many things had been pointed out   with Sigil Magic,   with the dark, especially with the dark side. It's not like, you know, how many how many rock bands do you know that are shining in the light and throwing Bibles? I mean, there was one band that I know of   that did that.  

But, I mean, it's   and I'm not saying it's it's definitely bad when you do that,   but it could turn a little bit completely different if you take it on a wrong turn.   That's the whole thing. It's the same with Sigil Magic. I think when you use Sigil Magic to to to get something in your life, it doesn't have to be bad.   But beware of what kind of stuff that you're doing   that could turn the coin, like, flip the coin in a millisecond and you just point it instantly.  

[01:19:29] Unknown:

Yes.   Yeah. It's,   whatever this is again, it's it's not just   hijack the observer effect in order to do that. It's almost hijack consciousness.   And so, you know, it   it just destroys every model I've ever known. You know?   I mean, the closest model would be that of of demonology,   but again, we're dealing with something that can self replicate.   And the only explanation demonologists   had, like even   Thomas Aquinas and other   theologians was that   the same entity would manifest to a man   in the image of a woman and take the semen, and then it would go to a woman in the image of a man and it's serenity. And it's like, well, how can a spirit do that?   Right? It kinda seems like we're just dealing with embodied practitioners that are working with these entities,   that they themselves   are both   independent   species.  

But even then, the embodied practitioner   would have to be going through a bloodline, my friend. They would have to be knowing what they're doing and who they're doing it for. Right? Right. They would have to know Right. They'd have to know what they're doing and who they're doing it for.   And I again, it sounds a lot more like yeah. If we're finding central and secretions at the same body, same time,   I would say that's an embodied practitioner.   And I think that's where demonology fell apart was because they they weren't ready for that or they just didn't I don't know. I don't really know how to to to frame that. It's just wild to me. But, you know, this is some of the latest research I'm doing.  

[01:21:06] Unknown:

But, man, thank you for having me on, brother. It's always a pleasure. I apologize for my voice, dude. It's, I didn't even have a voice this morning when I woke up, so I didn't know if I was gonna be able to do it today. Yeah. I know why. You don't have to explain that. You did a great job, man. I always I'm delighted to talk to you, and I love to talk about these topics. And it it's really fascinating, and it's it's boggling my mind all this all the time because you're trying to connect dots sometimes about these things. Like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe   when we are more consciousness   ourselves that we're gonna lift up the veil, as you say. You know? When you lift up the veil, so you have a a bigger spectrum of your eyesight   than these entities   can   visualize   or you visualize themselves. But then again, you got the question, like, your own perception of is the demon is, you know, whatever,   and how does it manifest. And and and just what we talk about today, like, well, it's not you.  

It is also like, hey.   Here I am. I'm going to get in front of like, what the Right. There are there are, like, different aspects to this  

[01:22:17] Unknown:

the same manifestation. Like, okay. If you look at, again, John Klein and Andrew Cold, what do you look like? There's the inquiry. It depends on who's looking. There's the answer.   Well, somebody has to look.   Right. For me to look like anything,   somebody has to look.   And that's the point of of CE five is not self initiated.   The phenomenon seeks to be seen.  

[01:22:42] Unknown:

So where does it come from, c c g? Is it is it like a military kind of stuff, like  

[01:22:49] Unknown:

it comes from Greer or Steven Greer. That's again, it's just kind of a bastardized   way of contact we've seen throughout history. You know, in the sixteenth century Right. With Gilgal, Repayim.   They had different terms for it.   It's just repackaged once more in the twenty first century, and now people think, oh, it's new. It's like it's not new. This is not new life. It's old life being discovered perhaps,   and this is generous   in a new way.   But it's not new life. And I'll tell you what, it certainly doesn't appear to be extraterrestrial either. It seems to be more local.  

[01:23:22] Unknown:

Yeah. I think it's still roaming here on this Earth longer than we are, and it's getting   more power, it seems. And and it shows itself much more times   than we were. And and especially just like you said with the camera, with the, you know, with the,   with the orb. And on the other side, you see the real thing. So it's like the the the projection. So if you look into   our eyes,   there has to be light to see the things. But what's been projected right here is completely different what I see   than it could be that we use. Yes. There's the  

[01:23:58] Unknown:

So so so let me throw let me throw something in here real quick.   They were I remember watching this interview with a sky watcher team,   and he was just being very this individual was being very transparent, but very blunt.   And understanding the observer effect.   Listen to what he says.   We're not,   we're not even sure what we are observing   when we are observing.   Why?   Because   what they're seeing with their eyes is not what they're seeing on camera. And I can't go into this data yet, but I'm gonna tell you that we're not even sure we can trust what we're seeing on camera either.   So we may not know anything about this   at   all. But I could say it is too.  

Yeah.  

[01:24:49] Unknown:

Yeah. It seems to dive deep into more into the stuff that, you know, like manifestation that what you want to believe and you want to be is in the future   could be projective.   There you got your simulation. There you got your   you know?   Right.  

[01:25:09] Unknown:

Wow. You know, and a lot of magic is retroactive   too, so it can actually mess with timelines.   So if anybody, again, who, if you're interested in the the research we're doing,   go watch dark city.   Dark city. Director's cut. Watch the director's cut,   and you'll see kind of all of this meshed into this masterpiece   that should have been given a larger production budget.   And if it was given that,   major production budget, the matrix would not be what it is today. Just gonna tell you that straight up. So no. I gotta get out of here, buddy. I apologize, man. I'm out. My voice is gone.  

[01:25:52] Unknown:

Thank you for showing up, man. I I really appreciate you, man. I love the stuff you do. I do hope everything is gonna be unfolding right in front of you for the future. We know we talked about some stuff about some people that are that are, getting their arrows right pointed at at you, and I do hope that it's gonna be   evolving for you.   See you, Brian. Please tell the audience where they can find you, Nathaniel.  

[01:26:18] Unknown:

Yeah. So you can follow me on Instagram at Nathaniel Gilles. You can find me on YouTube, look at all my interviews. I also have a YouTube account, Nathaniel Gilles. You can also go and sign up for early access to my new platform called Parasymposia.   That's where I'm going to be   giving all of my lectures on necrotinetics,   in addition to any and all   of the research I am doing. But thank you, my friend. Thanks for all thanks for having me on. It's always a good time, I should say. I always have a blast, buddy, and,   don't think about this stuff too hard, buddy. You'll get a headache like I I get.  



[01:26:52] Unknown:

It won't be good. Alright?   No. Nathaniel, thank you for, for,   for having the this great conversation again. It it's it's mind boggling, and I I do not wanna have another headache. Absolutely. I'll leave that to you, Riley. Thanks, buddy. You are so kind, my dear friend. So kind. You. Thank you, man. Alright. Oh, yeah. We're gonna hook up yeah. Thank you for all the people that are listening to this, to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Leave a like and subscribe because it really helps the channel. And you can find me at desoranadesproductions.com.   Holistic Karno, man. I'm gonna put everything   down here   in the, show show description.  

And, Nathaniel, again, thanks, my friend. Have a really good one. And we're gonna talk to each other absolutely within an hour and a few times because  

[01:27:39] Unknown:

It's absolutely funny. It is. Thank you, guys. We've all too, brother. You have a good night, my friend. Have a good night, buddy.  

[01:27:45] Unknown:

Okay. Thank you very much, man.   Alright. Wow.   What a great episode of disorganized productions, man.   Every single time when I'm talking to Nathaniel,   it's it's mind boggling. It's very interesting. It's fascinating.   And,   yeah. But just like you said, you don't have to,   and you should not think about it too much because you're gonna have a headache. And you gotta be very aware of,   what's   unfolding right in front of you because we we don't know that much about our reality,   our world. Are we living in a simulation,   or are we not?  

What's the perception of your, you know, your reality?   So, yeah,   Thank you for tuning in, this organized productions. I I really do hope that you like this episode.   If you wanna see more   about the content and about our sponsors   and about the products that   are being linked   on the websites   disorganizedproductions.com,   Linktree   disorganized productions, and there's a new site about more holistic way of life   and that's called holisticcarnomad.com.   And,   I really appreciate it that you were listening to this episode. I really,   love doing this. I wanna   keep on pushing to do this.  

There's a new guest lining up within now and two days,   and it's gonna be a great conversation too. And,   yep,   no matter where you are in this beautiful planet,   I wish you a grand rising,   a beautiful day,   or a beautiful evening, no matter where you are. Thank you, fellow human.   Bye.  

[01:29:52] Unknown:

Whoo.  

[01:30:00] Unknown:

What's tangled shadows dance?   Thoughts   collide in a restless trance.   Nomads   wander across the flame.   The cage.   Disorganize,   but we see clear.   Every story   echoes here.   Chaos   Scatter the pieces, let them fall.  

[01:33:10] Unknown:

Keep running for all my   life with a devil on my heels.   He wasn't always kind,   and he couldn't fulfill   my dreams.   I've been running for all my life   with a devil   on my heels.   He wasn't   always kind,   and he couldn't fulfill my dreams. He's a pain in the ass,  

[01:33:36] Unknown:

black as a night.   God   dreams. He's a pain in the ass.   Black as a knight.  

[01:34:13] Unknown:

God's swimming light and he'll be tight.