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Recorded live Tuesday August 20th 2024.

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Catch a preview of the next debate:

Has Hollywood had a Negative Impact on Society? 

Heathenism vs. Taoism: Ancient Wisdom for Modern Times
Balancing Act: Can Daoism and Heathenism Save Western Civilization?
Daoism and Heathenism: Philosophies for a Society in Decline
Ancient Philosophies in Modern Context: A Debate on Daoism and Heathenism
Daoism vs. Heathenism: Finding Balance in a Chaotic World





In this episode of Deliberating Dog Face Dudes, we dive into a fascinating debate between two ancient philosophies: Heathenism and Daoism. 

Our special guest, Adam Wallace, joins regular hosts John Roland and Benjamin Balderson to explore the merits and flaws of these two worldviews. John Roland, a proponent of Daoism, argues for its principles of harmony with the universe, inner contemplation, and non-action. He believes that Daoism offers a balanced approach to life and could be a solution to the decline of Western civilization. 

Adam Wallace, an experienced practitioner of traditional and wild goose Qigong, supports John's views by emphasizing the health and longevity benefits of Daoist practices. 

On the other side, Benjamin Balderson defends Heathenism, highlighting its focus on honor, respect, and competence. He argues that Heathenism promotes a society of rugged individualism and self-reliance, which he believes is more realistic and effective in today's world. 

The debate touches on various aspects, including the historical context, societal applications, and the potential for these philosophies to thrive in a multicultural, modern society. 

Tune in to hear a deep, thought-provoking discussion on how these ancient philosophies can offer solutions for our current societal challenges.

(00:01:35) Introduction and Guest Introduction

(00:01:55) John Roland on Deliberation and Taoism Opening Statement

(00:04:49) Adam Wallace on Taoist Practices Opening Statement

(00:07:30) Benjamin Balderson on Heathenism Opening Statement

(00:11:44) Debate Format and Opening Arguments

(00:16:46) Historical Context of Taoism and Heathenism

(00:28:06) Philosophical Differences and Common Ground

(00:44:46) Martial Arts and Self-Defense in Taoism

(00:51:00) Heathenism's Approach to Society and Defense

(01:00:02) Esoteric vs. Exoteric in Societal Application

(01:10:25) Governance and Longevity in Taoism

(01:25:02) Cultural Appropriation and Survival of Philosophies

(01:45:05) Anthropomorphism and the Concept of God

(02:00:09) Reincarnation and Afterlife in Heathenism and Taoism

(02:18:00) Christianity's Influence and Historical Context

(02:25:02) Final Remarks and Future Outlook

- allen marcus

- Benjamin Balderson

- John Roeland

https://serve.podhome.fm/deliberatingdogfacedudes

https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/deliberatingdogfacedudes/6

[00:00:33] Unknown:

You win.  

[00:00:41] Unknown:

You're  

[00:01:18] Unknown:

4, 321,   fight.  

[00:01:36] allen marcus:

Greetings, everyone. We are deliberating dog face dudes, and we have a very special show tonight with an extra special guest, Adam Wallace. We're joined by John Roland and Benjamin Balderson, our regulars, and I am allenmarcus.com.   Let's get right started.   Let's introduce John Roland.  

[00:01:56] John Roeland:

Hello. I am John Roland, 1 third of the deliberating dog face dude. You can find me at the nuss and at natural freedom league, trying to help individuals use their autonomy to discover the nuss aka the Dow aka   the way.   First off, I say that to debate someone on a certain topic   is just a technique to deliberate upon that topic in a deeper and more critical way by choosing sides.   The definition of deliberate from Adam online is,   from the mid 1500,   weigh in the mind, consider carefully,   discuss and examine the reasons for or against.   From   Latin,   past participle of   consider carefully, consult.  

Literally, weigh well. From de, meaning entirely, and   to free, liberate.   From   to balance, make level. From Libra pair of scales, a balance.   So I come here tonight not to win any debate, but to weigh carefully the merit and the flaw of 2 philosophies of life in order to find the balance internally and thus externally.   As within so without.   It I don't know much about heathen heathenism.   I've listened to some of the texts, and I've done some research into the history.   By engaging in this debate process, I have only enriched myself by showing it respect and looking at it again.   I look forward to gaining even more clarity on it through this debate.  

The Norse tradition comes from an area of the world closer to my father's Dutch heritage than China, and yet I find myself taking up for Taoism in this debate because I resonate with the Taoist principles,   and I believe Taoism to be the best prescription   for our current condition   and the best description of the true source of creation.   Taoism is a Chinese philosophy that encourages living in harmony with the universe.   It is based on the idea   of the dao, which is an impersonal process that   of change that underlies reality.   The word dao can be translated as way.  

Through the principles of detachment and non strife, it emphasizes inner contemplation,   mythical union with nature, and wu wei, which is the idea of nonaction   or letting things take their natural course.   Taoism also teaches people to balance opposing forces   as represented by the Taiji 2,   more commonly known as the yin yang symbol.   The world needs to find balance and resolve the paradoxes.   Daoism offers the path to do so.   And I brought on my friend, Adam, who has some experience   in Daoism,   and, I'm gonna let him introduce himself brief briefly, and then   we'll pass it over to Ben.  



[00:04:49] Unknown:

Hello, everybody. Yeah. Hi. My name is Adam Adam Wallace.   I've been studying and practicing,   traditional   and   wild goose qigong,   as well as and Wing Chun. So I have, like, about 35 years practicing and studying   and about almost coming up to 30 years of teaching.   So it's the first time I've actually done any podcast   or had any broadcast or anything like this experience, so it's kinda new for me.   Might be, you know, looking forward to it. And,   so, basically, the Qigong and Tai Chi I do is founded on Taoist principles. I mean, I I have done some study of it way back, but probably John actually is, has more knowledge of the history and, you know, warring periods and everything. So, I mean, my my kind of I'm just coming from more experiential,   the tutor is living it basically. I kind of   employ the health practices of Taoism, the meditation practices,   and try and get out into nature whenever possible.  

So basically, all of the principles, some of which John mentioned like yin yang, wu wei, which is,   basically   effortless action   and naturalness   and non attachment.   Basically doing it for a lot. My my goal is really longevity,   and sort of,   spiritual training, really.   And so I think one of the later things of Taoism, which wasn't in the original one, was, sort of honoring the ancestors.   So that's something I've come across just through my traditional practices.   So it's more of a kind of gratitude from the knowledge that's been handed down over the generations and whatnot.   And the main thing with Dowelston for me is like a really a harmony with nature, simplicity, which unfortunately technology is kind of contrary to that. You have to kind of live with it, but I kind of try and stay away from tech as much as possible.  

And sort of avoiding stress, you know,   more tranquility for the mind. You see more clearly develop this more spiritual things when the mind's quiet.   So I've studied under sort of some kind of traditional lineages, some which one goes back about 1800 years, and it can be traced back up to the recent ancestors, this kind of thing. So that's basically it. I mean, I, say debating form is new for me. I'm more of a writer. I've I've written,   they're not published a book yet, but I've I've written for a variety of magazines going back   to Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Inside Kung Fu, Wushu Kung Fu,   The Anti Vessel, which was actually a contemporary Taoist,   publication. I don't think it's still around now.  

And I had a column in Chi Magazine for about 10 years, and,   that's about it, really. So I'm kinda looking forward to also   learning a little bit more about, humanism too and if there's any similarities.  

[00:07:30] allen marcus:

Thank you, Adam Wallace. Up next, we wanna hear from Benjamin Balderson,   dispenser of caustic wisdom.  

[00:07:45] Unknown:

Hey, all, guys. And don't feel bad, Adam. We are also very new to the debate format.   So it's gonna be a little wonky, and, we're taking this,   time period ahead of time,   to try and work out our own kinks. So that way, we don't get treated like boxing clowns when we get in there with, people that this is their typical format.   But I find, like, John said, preshow   that,   through this format, we're gonna find some growth where,   when you just present   and nobody challenges the things that you say, you can have glaring   obvious holes in the things that you're thinking and   and never notice because you're in an echo chamber.  

And, so I I feel like, personal growth, this is gonna be really good,   but that was not my present or my opening.   So hello. My name is Benjamin Balderson.   You can find me on Weaving Spider's Webs, Saturday evenings,   on deliberating dog faced dudes, Tuesdays,   or by typing in my name in YouTube or your favorite application.   I'm speaking at the upcoming Flattoberfest   event in September in Spartanburg, South Carolina.   I'm happy to be here tonight debating the application of heathenism   versus tau   on society with John and Adam.   I think this is gonna be an interesting debate because I have no real preconceived notions about tau with most of my study and focus being on western society.  

With that, my concentration   on the opening will be on heathenism.   The religion I follow is Odinism,   which is heavily entrenched into the society,   but the tenets of Odin do not have   what you would normally consider a heavy religious connotation,   as most will discover   while this gets more fleshed out.   Religiously, the book most heavily followed is called the Havamal,   and that is divided into 3 sections.   Host or how you treat others from the world,   how to act as a guest, and wisdoms of the world.   Rather than what you would typically   consider religious, you will find things like the need to be hospitable to strangers that happen upon your land.  

These people lived a very in very harsh conditions,   and the person turned away had a good chance of dying.   I know basic human decency today   seems odd to hold as a religious tenant,   but I believe it has been lost in today's world in general.   The measure of a society   is the people it produces.   There has been no society that produces such competent individuals as heathen society.   Despite the modern portrayal of barbaric drunkards who rape and steal,   propaganda taught by Latin driven colleges   in Hollywood,   heathen society was fair and honest,   where honor and respect were keys.  

One of the standards used in today's world to measure the decency of a society is their treatment of women. You will find in heathen culture, women were allowed to own property,   speak, take part in their own defense,   and divorce if their husband did not act responsibly or decently.   This was a class system, but not a stagnant class system.   This meant a recognition of who people are, similar to the story of the scorpion and the frog,   where their own actions placed their position in society.   In a time when slavery was legal in most of the world,   heathen society had laws protecting these people from mistreatment.  

I do not know what a tau society looks like, but I do know that a society that lives by honor, respects, and rewards skill, where strength is used to protect the weak, and where common decency is the rule, that is a society I would be a part of.  

[00:11:43] allen marcus:

Thank you, Balderson. That gets us right into   our topic of debate tonight, which is there's   a decline of western civilization. We're living through a collapse, economic,   societal,   moral, all all the things that   keep a society   together seem to be failing systems. So tonight, we have 2 sides presenting   their idea for   moving forward in our western civilization. We recognize that we're speaking English. We're living in America. We have,   a government election coming up this year. All of these issues are coming to head, and our two sides tonight   are here to debate   with solutions from their perspectives.  

So we are recording live Tuesday, August 20, 2024.   This is our   is it our 6th episode   of delivering dog faced dudes, and we're ready   to kick it off.   John Roland, do you have an opening argument statement?  

[00:12:46] John Roeland:

Sure.   One of the points I wanted to hit on is   the history of,   and longevity   of Daoism. So   Daoism was   written,   basically based on a book by Lao Tzu who,   he's one of these mysterious characters. Did he really exist? Is he a culmination of a bunch of different people?   So I think we're gonna see that on both sides of this discussion.   But Lao   Tzu,   let allegedly   worked for the empire, like, the different emperors and the different empires of the time   as a council   who consulted the Yi Xing.   So this man was well versed in the Yijing.   The Yijing   goes back   to the legend of   Fu Xi,   the first Chinese   emperor,   who was   by standing by the Yellow River   and a turtle   came out of the water.  

And on his back was   the symbols for   the Yijing.   I don't know if it was all 64 symbols or if it was just the first 8 trigrams,   but this became an oracle   that he   that became used. It was one of the widest I think it's like I've heard,   you know, again, legends, that it's the only book that survived the burning of the books in China.   And again, they would read it as, like, do we go to war? What do we do? And so Lao Tzu, as an old man, left this position,   was leaving to go live, you know, in off the land away from   the empire. And a man asked him to write a book about what he understood, and he wrote the Tao Te Ching.  

So my point on this is that Daoism is sort of a culmination in my perspective   of 1000 of years because, Fuxi was alleged to be alive   between   the 29100   to or 2000   BC.   So we're going way back in ancient history.   And   this thing, this Yi Jing,   has continued to influence   society   through Daoism   one way,   but then also, you know, it's the binary code, it's what runs all computers.   And   so   one reason why I think it's a powerful   philosophy to follow and look at is because of its longevity and how long it has survived.   And,   yeah. Has like now   and then   I'll just leave it at that.  



[00:15:43] allen marcus:

Okay. To clarify, the point that you're making in your opening argument is the longevity   of Daoism   proves its its value to, society.  

[00:15:53] John Roeland:

Yes. And compared to   compared to heathenism,   heathenism seems to be what let's say the Norse Vikings,   they seem to be a newer,   I I don't know. Like, this is like this might be getting too deep, but maybe a newer   version of humanity.   I sound weird, but a new approach. Now this may be based on where they're from,   but,   you know, that belief system from the Norse   seemed to die off for a long time and not arise again till,  

[00:16:27] allen marcus:

I believe, it was the 1800. Okay. Those are fighting words. We have, argument for the longevity   of Taoism versus the seemingly recent,   rise of of heathenism   compared to, you know, 1000 of years of   this wisdom collected in the   Bailoa Tzu.   What say you, Balderson?  

[00:16:50] Unknown:

So where John shows his,   his,   United States western learning,   which is primarily movies.   And so,   with that,   you get these ideas. And and I don't I'm and I'm not even being critical of John.   Like, you take the most recent, in this fashion. Because here's here's an honest thing   right here.   Onanism was one of the last things that I came to.   The   for some reason,   there's such a heavy white guilt placed that our own culture that that is literally my own   salt. Like, I'm I'm extraordinarily   Northern European   in my bloodline.   And   that was one of the last things I came to, and for some reason, that's very dismissed,   by white culture.  

Because I think in a white guilt is where I would place that. But in in reference to the,   in re or in response to the time period,   again, that's just that that's just flat   ignorance on the subject where it's not been studied out. So there's   3 basically different periods you can separate the heathens into.   There's the   pre viking era.   The era that,   John is talking about is the Viking era, which is the second what you would call the second era.   And the,   Viking era was in response   to,   a bunch of events in the pre viking era. So the viking era is approximately   800,   AD   to,   like,   1050,   1100   AD, somewhere in there. So that is a fairly short duration,   as John pointed out.  

Now   the whole the thing about the Viking era is is as Hollywood tries to, portray,   especially in the most recent,   Vikings,   TV show on history channel, which was very popular.   They pretend like,   this church, Lindisfarne,   suddenly,   these people nobody's ever heard of before that are just mystical show up and just start fucking up churches.   Like, hell, yeah. These monks don't fight. We're stealing their shit.   In order to in order to,   make that case, you have to pretend like the that that was the first incident.   That Northern Europe was not consistently   trading and interacting with each other. That things like,   the Irminsil   tree, where Charlemagne   went, and this is before the Viking period started.  

Charlemagne,   everybody's heard of him,   went and slaughtered   1,000 and 1,000 of Danes, and then cut down the sacred Irminsil tree. See, we as heathens,   our sacred worship thing is a tree. It's not a church. So to us, cutting down that tree and burning down that church, they're equivalent.   In fact, they used the church the trees of our sacred holy places   to build those churches   right on the sites. Talk about desecration.   So the Viking age, they can pretend like a bunch of guys just went crazy stealing stuff,   or we can recognize that prior to the Viking age, we also had   Saint Boniface in Donar Street, where he literally went up and they were gonna force convert the Christian people and or the heathen people.  

And anybody that was would not get baptized   was crucified.   They cut down   Thor's tree.   Are you kidding me? And it even today   in Germany, there is a plaque and a commemoration   to this   over and over because of Hollywood, because we live in a Judeo Christian world, which I these 2 gentlemen are not representing, and I'm not pretending that they are.   But there's been a a Latin versus Germanic war for years years, and and this debate   doesn't really cover   that because they're debating out of the eastern world, which is not our society.   But   because of this,   Latin versus Germanic war that has happened,   which Hollywood's owned by folks from the Latin world,   so are the school systems,   the Germanic people get portrayed in a very specific way. So suddenly,   we have the Viking era, which is   crazed   Vikings who never mind that we just went and slaughtered bunches of their people and cut down their holy things.  

That doesn't count.   Why are these guys here burning our turf?   Such dicks.   So that to take that side of it though is is even though I understand it's out of ignorance.   So   to further that,   we have pre viking era. So the Germanic people, they did exist.   You once again are taking then the collegiate view   where the collegiate view is specifically the Greek and Roman view. Where   Alexander when Alexander the great and the people of the Greek and that area of the Mediterranean   Sea claimed this is the world,   very, very Abrahamic. Right?   This is the world. These are the first people, but then there's these other people over here.  

Alexander the great   did the same thing. This is the world, and then there's the barbarian lands. And there's people over there, and those people do have gods and systems and societies.   And funny enough, when we tried fighting with them, they were superior to us, but they're barbarians. They don't count.   So that you are also now taking that position   of the Latin collegiate system, which then tries to not recognize that   prior to any of that, the heathen system was always in place.   And has always, if you put any study into it,   keeps cropping up over and over and over. So this longevity argue argument holds 0 weight.  



[00:23:19] John Roeland:

Okay. I wanna follow-up real quick.   Just, so I you know, and again, like a lot of the things you're saying, I'm not making those assumptions.   But what I'm saying is so let's if we say time frame so maybe like 2000 years ago, there were Germanic tribes living that were called pagans,   or they were thought of as pagans, and they believed in In in today's vernacular, brother, just so you're clear,  

[00:23:45] Unknown:

not trying to stop your point, but just clearing this up so you don't go the wrong direction. Mhmm. Pagans is typically associated with more Celtic   bent. That's gonna be your more,   the more English   in the area. And then, Odinus, the Germanic pantheon, is typically more considered the heathen. So there is a bit of a separation there. Not a lot of people make it, especially in today's Wiccan world where they just kinda mush everything together and claim it. So   and we aren't we were heathen. The Germanics were heathens, and then the pagans were mostly the Celts, the Gauls,   those types.  



[00:24:21] John Roeland:

Okay. Because, like, again, when I'm when I'm searching these   terms   on the mainstream sources, right, this is Google AI, so, you know, take that for what it's worth. It says the term odinism was first used by Scottish writer Thomas Carlyle   in 18/41.   And then, like, when you go back, you see that, you know, okay. Like, the Vikings believed in it, but they're, like, 8th 8th century, right, BC?  

[00:24:48] Unknown:

So, like Once again, that's that's Viking era,   John. So those people   just because the era switched,   those people didn't suddenly appear at like magic.   You understand that? So the Viking era is the era   where there was a war   between   specifically Christians and heathens. Heathens existed and had an entire flourishing   society   up pre previous to that point.  

[00:25:15] John Roeland:

Right. That's that's and then and then so the Viking era happens. So that's an an action they took, which was to, like,   go to other lands   to take their lands.   And, like, in some things I read that they came back and they attacked   monasteries,   right, which goes along with what you're saying.   If the Christians had already attacked them, that they would have attacked the monasteries.   But,   again, I'm gonna just say   strengthening the side of the Daoist argument is just it's a more ancient wisdom.   It seems to me. I I'm trying to go, like, where does Odinism I mean, you're you're you're you're just, like,  

[00:25:56] Unknown:

pulling that on a feeling. You're giving there there's 0 backing to what you're saying. Well, I'm asking. Like, what society will I I can't I was a week ago. Nobody knows how to properly date ours, and I would honestly venture to say nobody can properly date yours either.   And and I I I openly admit that. There there's,  

[00:26:19] John Roeland:

That's a good point. That's a good point. And I agree with that.   Yeah. You know? I'm just go I'm just going off the mainstream,   what I know, what I've learned about, and and just what we've learned about the cultures in general. I mean, Chinese does seem to come from, like,   an even more ancient past that I don't see accounted for for, like, what were Europeans doing at that time?   You know, like, 2000   BCE?  

[00:26:46] Unknown:

Like, what were the northern people What do you imagine that they were what do you imagine that they were doing, John? I guess not recording what they were doing,  

[00:26:54] John Roeland:

you know, or not in the way that the Chinese were.  

[00:26:58] Unknown:

So I'm just pointing to that they definitely agree with that, that the the northern traditions were tended to be more oral.   Although,   in that,   they're finding more and more,   runestones   that they   they're not even the dates that were given are   exceedingly out of the range that we were ever told,   and   that's if they're that date.   So that so that's,   again,   depending on how much you look into it.  

[00:27:34] John Roeland:

You got anything to add in, Adam?  

[00:27:36] Unknown:

I mean, not really. I only I know that, like, a certain Qigong has been traced back 5000, 7000 years. I don't know whether   I'm assuming that was based on Dallas philosophy.   So, you know,   beyond that, no. I don't know.   Let me tell you.  

[00:27:52] John Roeland:

I think I I'm what I think I'm pointing to, I could be wrong. This is, again, my intuition is that   maybe there maybe there was, like, some new kids on the block,   like the Aryans.   Right? They were, like, they were kinda maybe maybe they were maybe they arrived here or emerged here   later than the Chinese. The Chinese had already   been here in prehistory.   They had  

[00:28:20] Unknown:

so you think white people derive from Chinese people? Is that what you had to claim? No.  

[00:28:25] John Roeland:

No. I'm saying that on the block. I'm saying that people arise out of   different areas. Life arises. I don't know how it gets here. I don't know how it gets here. But from my like, if you look at, like, Rudolf Steiner, which I quote a lot and, you know, he has some out there ideas,   he looks at, like, the long history of the different   root races and, like,   that   it'll it'll you know, there is an idea that, like, after the Atlanteans   come the Aryans.   So Yeah. Is it pointing to an evolution?   And I'm not saying that makes   that heathenism wrong or Aryanism wrong if it's, you know, just a new race or a new root race of humanity   that   the ancient one that has lasted   is   to me, it's not   well, I guess I'm like defeating my point. It's not more value. It's not more valuable,   but it's something worth looking at this thing that have lasted   1000 of years   and that teaches   a peaceful approach   to solutions,  

[00:29:37] allen marcus:

more internal. So that is maybe a different argument. But Thank you. Thank you, John. Adam, did you have anything to add to the longevity?  

[00:29:44] Unknown:

No. I mean, obviously, they're both very, old systems that probably   due to their age have, you know, weight on them. I mean, if if one's older than the other, I don't know if it gives any more credibility to   what we're talking about. You know?  

[00:30:00] allen marcus:

Sure. So that brings us to   maybe the next argument that I will raise for both sides  

[00:30:07] Unknown:

with this idea of get a chance to respond here, Marcus.   I  

[00:30:12] allen marcus:

You had the argument? John had the rebuttal.  

[00:30:15] Unknown:

Do you have a rebuttal to his rebuttal? I I well, yes.   I don't get a chance to do this? Go ahead.  

[00:30:23] John Roeland:

The re rebuttal. The re rebuttal.  

[00:30:26] Unknown:

Re rebut.   Yeah. So what are you rebutting? Goat here, man.   You know I'm a butt?  

[00:30:32] allen marcus:

Yes.  

[00:30:35] Unknown:

I didn't mean to go, like, greatest of all time. I've barely even done this. I meant gold like fucking head butting.   So   you you you threw a a lot of things out there, John.   And what I'm what I'm gonna   point out for you,   the most is is   what I was able to grab together out of that was a whole   lot of   Theosophical   Society stuff.   And so what we had was,   the Theosophical   Society,   at some point became basically   mainstream   because they,   became the spiritual wing of the UN.   And,   a lot of these things you just said, like like, even Atlantean,   do you the the entire   true,   not channeled,   not I had a dream, not some   spirit messaged me.  

The true history of Atlantis   is, is it Socrates?   Socrates said some guy that he talked to that was a great teacher talked about it, and he heard it.   That is the entirety of the knowledge of Atlantis.   So a lot of these things that you're saying yeah. Again,   and you even immediately after I explained how the raids   and how Charlemagne and his people came in and Christianized   and killed, you went taking land.   You immediately reverted back to the today culture of well, yeah. The Viking era, them fuckers came raiding and stealing and pillaging.   Not   the Christians took those lands,   force converted a bunch of some of our people,   destroyed our holy things, but suddenly in 800 AD,   Viking's magic appeared. They're very angry. They're very pillogy.  

Again, that's to absolutely   ignore the entire history   before that.   They like like, you watched Vikings, and that's the that's the actual history of the world.   And and I understand that, to look these things up on Google, it takes a little effort,   especially in,   with heathenism.   Because,   again, in the Latin world, they've tried to stomp that down with a jack boot like you wouldn't believe.   And then you have to add in the convoluted marble,   nonsense, which is   99%   of what you're gonna pull up. Like, the first 800   pages are gonna be mostly Marvel or a video game.  

And so to actually get down to the root of things definitely takes some work and some effort. Even for most heathens,   they at best have   glanced through   the Eddas, which is one tiny source by a Christian monk.   I I don't know what to say about that. Like, people have no interest in studying,   which is,   part of why heathen society, in my opinion, would be better. Because   to have a society where it's so laissez faire about the way things are and everybody just does what they want,   I've   personally noticed that most people are extraordinarily incapable of taking care of themselves.   And most of those people would just die, and the same people that would promote this type of society   also promote a welfare society. So then what really happens is is the people like me   provide for all the rest.  

And that's not a real good society.   So I I'm not sure where this goes.  

[00:34:22] Unknown:

Just curious.   You know, obviously, of all the religions, I mean, Taoist probably practice less than Buddhism.   But I'm just curious, like, in terms of heathenism, even though it's suppressed,   and there are many, like, how big is the, influence or practitioners of that, would you say?  

[00:34:39] Unknown:

Germania was a giant area. So anything that you now would consider Northern Europe.   Again, I make this I have to make this   distinction because   so, like, the pagan worlds, it which included mostly around the Mediterranean,   99% of the time when you're looking up things about pagans,   the   Roman pagan pantheon is the only one that is recognized.   And again, you can look at you can see this literally in like the works of like Alexander the Great and whatnot, where everything he conquered was the world,   which included this Mediterranean area. And they literally refer to Northern Europe, which is everything north of that, which is a vast swath of people.   As a matter of fact, these people,   they   roam in its entire history.  

Only one time   met another people like that. Where 3 Roman legions went up to Germania and faced 6 out of, like, 100 of German tribes.   6.   3 Roman legions marched into Germania,   0 people came home.   And it never happened in the history. These were advanced   people.   These were not to be pissed with.   And   they just don't hold the history. You can even see this in, like, colleges. Do you know that part of the re that when you look back and you actually study   things like,   illiteracy,   it was you were considered illiterate if you couldn't read Latin.   So you could read German, you could read Danish, you could read, you know, lots of languages, but you're an illiterate because you can't read Latin.  

And and we all kind of know this because we were somewhat taught this in school that the common people, the church spoke spoke in Latin so the normal people couldn't read the Bible. Well, what hold on. I thought they couldn't read. They were illiterate. No. They couldn't read Latin.   So they had their own culture, their own language, their own religion.   It's just not recognized in   the Latinized   colleges and the Latinized   propaganda machine of the media in Hollywood.   And, no, there wasn't as many white people as there were Chinese people. Absolutely not. So that is a fact. There was more of them.   100%.  



[00:37:08] allen marcus:

So that does bring up the issue of   how   does Taoism handle the violence, raids, and invasions if it's,   if the argument is that this will be,   a better way forward for western   society,   maybe more specifically America   or whatever Western society is.   How does Taoism handle   war,   violence instigations,  

[00:37:35] Unknown:

borders, this type of thing? Okay. I can just add something on, like, the the Tai Chi I I studied comes from a farming village   in Henan province. And,   these people, they've had to repel invaders   several times.   So, obviously, they're well versed in in martial arts and everything. And so following Taoism, obviously, it's not to be nonviolent   entirely, but it's always to,   seek the path to reach resistance. So you're always I mean, the principle of Tai Chi itself is you're never attacking force against force. You're attacking enemy where they're weaker. So some of that can go back to Sun Tzu as well. You know, you you can feign weakness   and it you're basically attacking the enemy where they're weaker. You can there's different strategies for this, but, obviously, it's not that Taoism is nonviolent.  

If it has if it has to be action, then there is action, but it's always to seek the the path of least resistance.   And a lot of times,   you know, like, Wu Wei is taken as nonaction,   but it doesn't mean that really. It just more means like you   following the natural path like, you know, fish   following the stream or flowers,   you know, bending toward the light. It's not to,   you know, cause unnecessary   struggle.   So, I mean, as in, like, Chen Wen Kim, the guy that founded,   actually, his his, ancestor, Chen Phuc, 17th generation. He said a fight shouldn't last more than 3 seconds.   So, you know, it's really because if it goes on longer than that, it's it's fight you know, fighting is is effort.  

So the idea is to to have a skill whereby,   you know, you're not actually fighting. But you have obviously, there is violence. There's you know, they've had to defend themselves as in many tribes, the warring states, everything, but,   it's inevitable.   But your you and the other thing in Daoism is it's not about gloating or, you know, celebrating death, this kind of thing. It's like once they they,   you know, once the object is completed,   that's kind of it. You know? It's just you do what's necessary and then retreat.   That's the principle, you know, from my understanding of Daoism, how it handles it.  



[00:39:43] John Roeland:

Yeah. That's why I invited Adam here.   Because,   I would just say, like, philosophically,   it's more about   how you are   organizing society so that there aren't going to be violence, raids, invasion.   And also based off kind of what Adam said,   I think that   first of all, Taoism rose out of the warring states period, which I don't know a lot about.   But clearly, there were wars between   different groups in China.   But I looked up, like, China as a whole. Like like, why did China never, like, start   again, like, conquering the world?   And,   basically, it was saying that they had everything they need needed. And so   to me, their their their whole approach is more of a defensive.  

If they're gonna get attacked, they'll defend themselves. But in general,   they're establishing society. And I'm not arguing for Chinese society at this point. I'm saying   that the principles,   the values of   that defensive position that China takes probably does come from Daoist   thought.   There's no official government or religion in China, but they do   acknowledge   Daoism, Buddhism,   and Christianity,   and Catholicism.   So,   and and Islam.   So, anyway, I would just say, you know, like, there's a line in the daoism that the more weapons you have,   the less safe you are or, you know, it's like   it's like that it's more, I guess, mind over matter is a good way to put it.  



[00:41:27] allen marcus:

Balderson, your response to   Taoism   is not nonviolent. It is not nonaction.   They have martial arts. They have Tai Chi. They attack   weaknesses, this type of thing.  

[00:41:48] Unknown:

The   inaction   course just doesn't make any sense to me societally.   From what I've seen of,   what I've looked up of, which again, it was as cursory as John's,   searches,   So I'm certainly not representing that that was good information by any means.   The,   you know, because to the fact is you gotta start at those cursory areas. You even have a place to go from.   So, again, not being hard on that since neither of us are particularly aware of the other person's   thing.   But,   as far as   being in a monastery, that sounds great. And, I mean,   a little bit to some degree, that sounds good.  

Like myself,   I try not to go outside during the heat of the day because it sucks.   All the animals lay down.   When people ask me why I take a nap in the middle of the day and don't do work, I'm like, look at everything else on the farm. It's all hiding in the shade laying down. Why why wouldn't I? You go with the flow. I get it. Why why try and skate uphill?   On the same token,   if something happens   and I have some higher need,   and that's what being a higher person and with a higher understanding   is, then I'm gonna go ahead and step out of that comfort zone and start making things happen, which is typically where society has to go when you're trying to build a society. So that sounds functional to me for living in a monastery, but I'm not sure   how that functions as a society.  

Now I I noticed, and I and I'm gonna have to ask in in in in in the response is these martial arts, I noticed, and I was gonna ask this earlier. It's one of the things I'd written down that you listed a number of martial arts along with this spiritual   practice.   So is that always a tie that those things go together? And if so,  

[00:43:47] Unknown:

I wouldn't, we'll go ahead and respond to that right right here. I was just gonna say, like, the the actual definition of martial arts in Chinese word is wushu. It means stop fighting technique.   So it comes back to the thing again. It's like the idea is you're   if your skill is good enough, you can actually use it maybe diplomatically, whatever, that you actually avoid the confrontation you fight when you have to fight. But actually, you need to fight. People think kung fu is martial arts. Kung fu just means practice,   and practice could be anything. It could be a chef with his cleaver. It could be any any type of kung fu is just skill   based over time and energy spent on it. But that's what 2 are boys tied together? What's that?  

Yeah. I mean, somebody who is a yeah. I mean, the martial arts is kung fu. Yeah. Basically, it's kinda become the   the definition of that, but the real work thing, yeah. You this, the the,  

[00:44:38] Unknown:

Tao   and do all Tao all   do   all Tao practitioners also  

[00:44:45] Unknown:

practice some form of martial art? I would say no. It's a bit like Buddhist, you know, like Buddhism like Shaolin   is is a Buddhist sect   of of martial art, but not all Buddhist. Even Buddhist monks practice martial art or Shaolin.   You know? It's just a yeah. Yeah.  

[00:45:01] Unknown:

Okay. Okay.   So I don't have a a problem with them defending with their abilities to defend themselves. I have no problem believing that. Outside of,   obviously, we've all seen,   the videos where today's MMA fighters go against   most of these,   different marsh most of these different ancient Chinese arts, and they don't do well at all   at all.   Real bad.  

[00:45:29] Unknown:

Like, guys that the topic, but, I mean, the bottom line is those guys that they portray as masters  

[00:45:35] Unknown:

is like the worst of the world. I'm not I'm just gonna know what the hell I I definitely won't disagree with that, and, actually, I can a 100% believe it. I I real I'm I'm not gonna argue that at all. So I I will take your word on that without, you know, any dispute   that,   but,   so as far as from my point as heathen society,   so that way it's not just me punching, bagging the on the other side.   Obviously, heathens are fairly well known for their ability at self defense, and it wasn't through,   actually being a particularly martial society.   This is   the reason that the they were so well known for an axe is because that was just what these were   farm people that lived in the forest like me. They swung an axe all day.  

Funny enough,   tree is much tougher than a human   when you hit it with an ax. Like, your human skin and bones and muscle give like butter, and trees are super hard. So if you have been splitting trees all day and using an ax, when you swing that at a human, it's gonna do real big bad things.   And these were just genetically   gigantic people.   So,   you know, you look at, even Iceland today,   like, 6 out of the 10 strongest men in the world are from Iceland, and Iceland only has a population of 300,000,   which is   mind boggling that that many gigantor   men all come from that tiny area.  

On the flip side, they do have an app that's like, find somebody that you're not related to to sleep with over there. So there is that.   But,   the,   you know, these were gigantic people, and so they just,   the defense   was,   part of   being a very self sufficient and independent person. So this was something you normally had to practice.   The basis of the society was,   free men that were basically together   under a yarl.   And so these men each independently   ran their own homestead,   which was gonna need defended. It was gonna be need to be organized. You're gonna need to take care of your people.   All these things had to happen in a micro verse. And so the macro verse of it went very much the same,   and it was very easy for them.  

It's not until their   interactions with the Roman world and the Abrahamic world   that you started seeing them really wander as warriors, which they were then,   exceptionally,   valued for where you see, like, the Varangian guards   and the, any of the, the top people of Constantinople   brought,   Vikings over in order to be their personal guards. And they did so well that they were given,   these were Rus Vikings. So they were given the area of Russia   in payment for their service upon release, and now we have Russia.   So the these were   well known   warriors, but it wasn't nest a warrior society. They didn't have any   more or less   in fighting than any other tribal society.  

And as far as the John's point to the the China never,   expanding,   China's never expanded because it's never stopped in fighting.   The idea of a united China even today   is absolutely insane.   That's why when, like, Japan conquered China, then you go and look at it and they conquered, like, this tiny little tiny tiny tiny tiny thing and China's like this. They're like, hold on. Hold on.   So in no way, that's why you have so many overlapping dynasties historically   where if you go back and start matching them up, they aren't it's not a a chronological   order thing.  

There's different dynasties existing in different eras   areas, and they're so busy fighting with each other that they just never expanded out. And honestly, in between that and the,   Northern European area was the Huns. And even the Vikings didn't wanna fight Huns.   They nobody wanted to fight Huns.  

[00:49:55] John Roeland:

Well, it's interesting to think too about just how the Middle East connects these 2,   you know, over time that because, again, like you're saying, like,   the that mentality   to, like, conquer the world is more from   Roman, Greek,   you know. And and, again, I'm not, honestly, I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing. It it obviously needed to happen for some reason. Right? Like, it happened. Like, this this is where we are. But, yeah, I I do think there's a distinction there just between   Chinese culture, eastern culture, and western,   where western was like a somehow there was an urge to   conquer the world.  

Right? Like,   unite the world  

[00:50:39] Unknown:

in some way. Nailed it though   with the, and here's here's where we're not gonna have an argument, and this is where things get kinda weird.   Right? Because normally, you have the a we would be going against an Abrahamic person,   but both of us man managed to be holding,   cultures that did not do this so much. So, did not do this. So when you look at it, the Abrahamic culture and even when you look at their stories, they have the they're the only culture that have the story of Babylon.   Or every other culture has flood. Every other culture has there's a number of events that every other culture has, but the tower of Babel,   that only exists in Abrahamic   because they're the only giant society   people. So when you look at it, even when,   like, your claims in the,   Telegram when we were chatting back and forth,   getting a feel for the information the other one's gonna bring out,   The fuck. Forgot where I was going.  



[00:51:50] allen marcus:

Yeah. So then   can we get a response from Adam about society   based on Taoism   existing at large   outside of a monastery?  

[00:52:00] Unknown:

Just can I quickly go back to the the thing of the violence as well? Because I I can read coming from the home, the dad de jing. Right? Talking about,   you know, not wanting rare things keeps the people from thievery.   Not paying attention to the desirable keeps the hearts of the people from disaster.   This is why the sage governs himself by relaxing the mind, reinforcing the abdomen,   gentling the will, strengthening the bones. Actually, a lot of people don't realize that this book is actually kind of a high level,   qigong text because it's talking of the the last part in particular. So it's talking about self development ultimately, you know, relaxing the mind, reinforcing the abdomen because when you're doing internal practices like tai chi, that is it's all about,   abdomen breathing   and gentling the wheel, strengthening the bones. This is all internal training. But just going back to the previous is about keeping people from, you know, wanting to conquer other villages and that. Not to say that   it didn't happen, but since this book has been written, it's it's the higher cause of the, you know, of the Taoist not to be,   you know, competing for somebody else's   property and and possessions, this kind of thing. And then also mentioned,   about fine weapons are not auspicious instruments.  

Everything hates them. Therefore, practitioners of DAO will have nothing to do with them. In every day,   skip a little bit of this.   Where is it now? Yeah. Since weapons are inauspicious   instruments, they are not the instruments of a noble man. He uses them only when necessary, for peace and quiet are what he holds highest.   To him, even a victory is not worthy of celebration.   Those who celebrate it take pleasure in the slaughter of men. Those who take pleasure in the slaughter of men consequently cannot have their will with the world.   So that's kinda like the fun that needed   idea of how it's  

[00:53:54] Unknown:

But, I mean, that is why I asked if there's a separation between the the   what we would call martial arts and the the tau if the because Yeah.   So so then what you would re be representing then is tau including martial arts as a societal prescription.  

[00:54:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, martial arts evolved out of necessity.   So, I mean, it's and it's one of those things. It's a bit like Chinese medicine. It's all about preparation or prevention, really. So Chinese medicine says, you know   I mean, the beauty of Chinese medicine is prevention.   So they say, you know, we wanna forge the weapons before the wars   created. Of course, You wanna dig the well before you're thirsty. So it's there as preparation and as a last resort kind of thing. So,   yeah, it's it's martial arts developed out of necessity.   But,   ideally, you know, a high level Daoist is not looking to, conquer   and subdue   and subjugate   and oppress this kind of thing. It's just contrary to DAOIST thought.  



[00:54:56] Unknown:

So I recall what I was gonna say about expansion. And, again, this is why the expansion argument is not really one to have between us, so it's kind of an odd one.   The,   where   John brought up some of the figureheads   historically.   When by the time the Northern Europeans had kings that any of the kings that he looks up and and is gonna go ahead and name that have brought about fame such as, like, Harold Bluetooth, you know, and Bluetooth was named after Harold Bluetooth. Blah blah.   He ate blueberries.   Yay. Yay.   Well, Harold blue Harold Bluetooth, what he was, was an absolute traitor that let his own people be slaughtered by Roman soldiers and had his guy oh, his guys open the doors, you know, because they're friends.  

And this is what you're gonna find over and over again.   And then what you're gonna find is then they all had subservience   then to,   Roman king or a,   a small hat king   along those lines, and then you see the entire area get subverted.   So the the the kings, the royal   lines   always have to   draw back to Israel. Right?   You already knew that.   So those is Israel in Northern Europe? Is that in Germany or Iceland or anything?   And so for to claim that those are you know, you understand that that expansion just happened to us.   Like   so we didn't join it. It already happened to us. We were a victim of said expansion.  

And they just had to do it in a much more subtle way because   when they tried to do it by force of arms,   that's when the battle of Tutteburg Forest happens and you send in legions and then nobody comes home. And you're like,   that's never happened for. That's very weird.   And things like the the battle of Stamford Bridge where   one lone heathen held off an entire Roman legion long enough for a battle to completely take place that was gonna go around and flank   his side. And 1 guy,   one heathen who's not a trained warrior, who's not in anything special, holding his out from home,   said, you   shall not pass.  

And a whole Roman legion had to respect that.   That's who you're dealing with.  

[00:57:28] John Roeland:

I wanna respond to   Marcus's question about,   can a society based on Taoism exist outside of monastery?   I would say yes,   but it would look very different than the society we have right now. So you might not even call it a society.   I don't know. I just think it's   it's more   it's more about the internal   government.   It's not saying there doesn't have to be government, but if the people in government   you know, if the king doesn't wear fine things, then people aren't gonna want for fine things.   Right? So   if the king had this philosophy in mind about  

[00:58:08] Unknown:

I I actually wanna simplify the question a little bit and let you keep going, John. I wanted you to I wanna boil it down to is esoteric   fit for the general society as opposed to exoteric because that's really what you're trying to push. Whether I'm not even trying to go against   the the tenants of the higher spiritual tenants that it's presenting.   Do you think that it that something that is such an esoteric,   very individualized   thing could ever hold sway over a a larger amount of people,   which would also include the the derivative   of   do you believe that the ek that the exoteric   is in order to hide the esoteric   from the common people?  

So   if you could flesh that out completely,   please go, but please simplify that down.  

[00:59:03] John Roeland:

Sure. Yeah.   I mean, I would say yes. I would argue yes that esoteric   can be   now   taught to everybody. It can be,   it can be widespread,   through technology.   And that,   you know, there's a there's an automatic tie between Taoism and Buddhism.   I mean, they basically arose at the same time.   And to me, when I've studied,   you know, I mean, I read Taoism and then I go practice Buddhism.   To me, Buddhism is the practical   method of getting   to this space of emptiness   and just sitting in it   and connecting with that that source, the Tao, you know. And that   it is being taught,   and,   like, I just I feel like to me, even though it's it's esoteric,   it's also done in such a way where it's sort of   it's almost it's it's more just self help. You could just call it self help.  

It doesn't   you don't have to market it as esoteric.   You know, again, simple things like breathing,   meditating,  

[01:00:17] Unknown:

a regular practice. Marketing   of it. I'm talking about do you think the general public is capable of   having any use of esoteric? That they that they would be able to apply that to themselves in any way, shape, or form?  

[01:00:31] John Roeland:

I think the ones who the ones who would be against, you know, quote, unquote, esoteric   would not even realize that it's esoteric. I mean, like, you know, it's kinda like what's happened with, like, with yoga. Right? Like,   you know, they're practicing it, and they a lot of people don't know   the spiritual   depth of it or history of it.   And, yeah, I do. I mean, I   if if you haven't   couldn't tell already, I'm an eternal optimist. Like, I do   I do think   I do believe we can turn it around. I I I try to look at   what happened with the western world   was for a purpose for us to   level up   in consciousness,   and that,   it would be to widespread   this type of practice and understanding,   because then you would have people with values who were   not   needing to get more have more money. Do you know, like and, again, not that there's anything wrong with money, but   it's the it's believing that we need that that keeps us in that cycle.  

And,   so   that's that's my thought.  

[01:01:44] Unknown:

I   mean, do you have anything to add to that before I go in?  

[01:01:53] Unknown:

Yeah. Not really. I mean,   I think it's a question of, I think this society we're in right now, I don't think is ready for anything different. I mean, it's become so removed   from the natural way and from sufficiency. It's constantly I mean, television   most people are television watchers these days and television's   telling them to consume. I mean, even after 9:11, if you remember,   the president   of the country told everybody to go shopping.   Remember? I don't even remember that, but it's kind of like it's an instruction. Go shopping. That'll be all your MD's gotta be somewhere.   Exactly. Yeah. But, you know so, anyway, the society's been is so far removed. It's all about convenience.  

It's all about, you know,   fame. And now now we've got, like, the social media platforms, TikTok and that. Everybody's   constantly   they're in a different space. So I don't think this society, I'll be honest with you, right now as it stands,   could be educated in either Taoism or heathenism as it stands. It would have to be some breakaway civilization.   That's my  

[01:02:56] allen marcus:

Gentlemen, I have to remind you, this is a debate. All this agreeing is not great for our our ratings and our listening audience. We need   more heat. We need more intense argument. We need disagreement.   So then the question,   I guess, we have to force   answer now is,   are   hedonism and daoism   compatible or incompatible?  

[01:03:19] Unknown:

Well,   I wanna respond to everything that was just said first. But,   the, I would say, you know, there for me, well, heathenism is a tribal society, and it's polytheistic.   So,   the the 2, I don't see where they would have an issue with each other, to be honest, in any way, shape, or form.   If you wanted to practice that again,   not all Germanic tribes practice. Not everybody was an Odinist. In fact,   Thor or Donar   was much more popular than Wotak.   And he was a he was considered a farmer's god, the the the common person's god.   And, there's even,   stories,   one,   where   Odin,   disguises himself   and won't let Thor pass and starts making disparaging   remarks about the common people and how he would hang out with them. And this is one of the first things that truly enrages Thor is just the,   disparaging remarks of the common people. So he was the more popular god,   you know, depending on village to village or whatever.  

So I I   I agree with Adam a 100% that I don't think our society,   the, heathen society   requires rugged individualism   and,   extreme self reliance.   And I   I don't know really.   That is not a descriptor to use for our society in any way, shape, or form.   So that would have to be in a an extreme,   difference.   I don't know if I would agree that there has ever been a general society   that was so that was capable of understanding esoteric.   I think that esoteric has always been a thing   because the most people have no interest in,   thinking for themselves   and guiding themselves   and even learning about themselves and really understanding themselves. Most people, they don't care. They they I don't think that's ever been a driving force for   the majority   of people. I think that's why you've they've always hid   esoteric   stories inside of exoteric stories.  

Because then the exoteric story carries on because that's,   entertaining to the commons.   And then the people that are gonna actually pull something from that,   it's always been there waiting.   And that and it's just waiting for the right person to open it up. If you read something like the kibalian, which I'm sure everybody in this debate has,   the first time you read it and the 10th time you read it are 2 different things entirely.   Like, it's like 2 different fucking books.   So the and and that information was always there. It's you that changed.   And I don't think that the general society ever is gonna be able to us operate on an esoteric   on an esoteric level. And what I think we have is   is back then,   the   what we really have when we boil this down   is   the Prometheus,   the Promethean story of the people that wanted the fire and the people that immediately wanted to give it back and said, this knowledge, this higher person is only for God. This higher thinking is only for the higher people.  

And so   the ones that are   for throwing that away, this is obviously societal people who need somebody above them up until they have a king or a a whatever   to to give them all the spirituality   and bless them and tell them they're good and what to do. That's society   where tribal things,   you are looking at rugged individualism,   and these people wanted the fire. They wanna go out and live life and not have somebody tell them how to do it.   So I think this is just the classic story that we're losing.   The pro the ones who wanted the fire   are dying, and we're very few and far between. And I but I don't think it was ever a great number. I think any the reason that we say the term breakaway civilization   is because it was always a tiny little group   inside. Even when you   look at, like, the Thule or any of those, these ones, like, what?  

A 100 people out of an entire society, and they broke away and disappeared and live a different life. You know? Like, this is never a a in mass   thing.  

[01:08:02] John Roeland:

Yeah. I see your point. I I see your point. And I think   I think   what I'm saying is that,   again, Daoist a Daoist society would look quite different. I I think it would be similar to what you guys are describing. It would have to get, like, smaller groups,   smaller local government,   and to, you know, to where you don't even really need it or you don't even have to pay attention to it. Like, there's a quote in the, the that   the best government is the one that people don't notice.   Right? So it's like it's like it's, you know, so hands off. You know? Like, maybe there's some decisions being made, but it's in general, you are self sufficient. You are it's just my I guess, my my perspective is this philosophy in general could could get us   there, like, in terms of actually truly helping a person, you know, internally,   to change that way. But, again, I'm an optimist, and I do see what you guys are saying.  

Because, you know, I I also don't necessarily believe it's gonna end in a bloody war, but,  

[01:09:06] Unknown:

so I'm hoping to promote an idea that could help it end without going that way. You know? Yeah. Can I ask you that thought? I mean, like, the itself, The Tao is is 3 words. Tao Te Ching. Jing is a scripture. It means like a serious book.   The   is a ethics, like moral, and then the the Tao is the way. So the translation, it means, you know, the way the the way of nature and its morals, basically.   And so part of the book is governing self,   improvements and and higher ideals. And then there's a bunch of chapters in the second part of the book that talk about governance.   So even to so, I mean, like, in a sense of can it exist outside the monastery? Yeah. Because it's basically giving people rules of how to conduct. And it's literally giving rule rules for rulers how to rule. I mean, like, one of the chapters that talks about starvation is because of people,   being taxed too heavily for their lie livelihood.  

And if if if so they that's why they starve because of the taxation. And so if people are unruly, it's because those above them are too active. So it's kind of like there are very various chapters in the book that will give rules of how to be a good ruler basically   and follow these codes.   So I would say it would it certainly can exist in a secular society, not it's not just for monastery.  

[01:10:25] Unknown:

See, I was unaware that that and I did to to my to to my defense, I did ask specific that almost   for that specific thing you just stated. I don't know where to find it, but I did ask for it because   well, just where to find that information.   And you weren't you weren't privy to it because you're not in the Telegram group, but because of my absolute ignorance on the subject,   I I did ask if there's any information I could find   stating this kind of thing. Mhmm. Where so whether I so whether this would have an application to society.   So which isn't in a a a criticism of anybody else. I just I did ask this because I was curious   and trying to do,   somewhat due diligence   on the subject   ahead of time. So that way I would be prepared   to talk about such things because now now I, now you listed a a prescription with it.  

Yeah. You know, that has a set of rules,   which definitely sounds very,   contrary to what the opening part is. So it almost sounds like this is more of an esoteric   and or an exoteric and what the other part is is the spiritual more esoteric part parts of it. And I did not know that there was a more   application.   Obviously, there there's definitely no YouTube videos talking about that or anything like that. And, like like I pointed out with John, which, you know, again, I wasn't criticizing him because I run into the same things unless you're heavily   researched on something.  

It's hard to even get into the heavy research because you gotta have a foot place to go to, and that foot place is  

[01:12:10] Unknown:

Google with this Research. Yeah. That's why I'm showing you research. It's just some some things they kind of like you have to find them out passed down orally. So, like, some of these definitions   I get from my teacher, maybe if I looked it up, it would take me forever to find that exact definition.   It's like even the word   is   so misinterpreted.   You know, there's also 3 words and, you know,   it's, people just assume it's,   I think a literal western definition is,   Tai Chi Chuan. Well, Chuan is fist, so it's it becomes,   yin yang.  

So it's like yin yang boxing actually or, you know, like that kind of thing, like it's, or Tai Chi fist. It doesn't mean   the best,   but people read that and that's the western definition. You look up anything on Google, that's what you'll see. So sometimes you need sort of a Chinese person. Actually, even a lot of Chinese people don't know the right definition. So you need someone from that kind of lineage to pass on. So like something like that, that's   how I learned it from from my teacher, but it might you might find it on Google somewhere, but it won't be   easy.  



[01:13:30] Unknown:

I   would say too not even experienced it himself.  

[01:13:35] John Roeland:

Well, I would say too with that is, like, every every different version of the Yi Jin or the   that I've read is worded differently.   Like, the translations   are different. There's a different feel to them. I had one that I loaned to somebody, and I wish I could get it back to me. That was the most beautiful poetic version of it. But, like, it's, like, just slight change of the word, but it makes a big difference. But,   Ben Yeah. I didn't I didn't realize you were asking for how   Yi Jing specifically applied to government. I would have showed you this, but, like,   I was trying to find one the other day, but this is chapter 57.  

Use regularity to govern nations.   Use regularity to govern nations. Use irregularity   to deploy troops.   Use disinterest to take the world.   How do I know that is so? By this, the more taboos in the world, the poorer the people become.   The more convenience people   conveniences people have, the more benighted the nation.   The more the crafts of the people, the more oddities arise.   The more legal codes are promulgated, the more thieves there are.   Sages say, if I contrive nothing,   the people will govern themselves.   If I like tranquility,   the people will correct themselves.  

If I am disinterested,   the people will prosper on their own.   If I have no fancies,   the people will naturally be simple.   So I guess it's leading by example.  

[01:15:07] Unknown:

Well, I wish we would have started with this. Now we have somewhere to debate from.   Okay.   Now we got somewhere to debate from. So this   sounds   very much to me,   like a very,   aligning   similar to libertarian   type ideology,   very, very similar.   And that and also,   like, the Mark Pacio type of, setup,   I can see where,   the the 2 are   fairly similarly parallel.   Then the problem with that always is reality.   So   people aren't   that awesome,   and and and I would like them to be,   but they just aren't, and they aren't by their own choice.   That   there's,   glaring,   examples   historically.  

And one of the one of the easiest ones is the Marquis de Saad,   where all he had to do was put out these really fucked up sexual pictures,   and the general public went nuts with it. They're like, all of a sudden, they're doing more crime and they're ready to and they are just   frothing for these pictures where they had to literally put this man in a hole and give him no writing utensils   and no ability to have any access and had to have multiple guards because people were bribing the guards   so heavily   in order to try and keep getting this just absolute   degenerate.  

Like, he he would cut holes into the people that he was having sex with be in these stories and illustrations   because,   the holes that they were provided with weren't enough and things like that. And the general public   loves that kind of thing. They they go to it. We we look   today's,   libertarian   idea   is   this tiny, tiny step from liberalism   where allow any type of behavior because anything's acceptable,   again, with the whole laissez faire, let it all happen.   Well, that's how you end up with guys in in in skirts dangling their nuts in front of your kids and reading a book and pretending like it's good for the kids.   And and and that and that type of   structure,   I'm not allowed to go up and split his skull,   and I should be.  

So, yeah, that's now   in heathen society,   it's not so laissez faire like that. There's very   different sets of rules in treating your friends and how you treat the people that you're around and how useful   and how, helpful you're gonna be with them. And then people who would show themselves as your enemies   and people who would live so far out of your range   that they're absolutely   unacceptable,   which   we didn't have jails, didn't have things like that. If you're gonna live like that, you're you're banned from society. They'll kick you right out. You are a leech. You're you're harmful. You're you're you're a predator,   and you're not a productive member of society.  

In today's welfare   United States where we all pretend like everything's so hard,   We actually live like kings and are given more than any society ever in the history of man.   And and what good has it done it us? Has it produced   good people?  

[01:18:56] John Roeland:

I I would just say that,   again, I well, the problem is with the people. So   how you change the people? You can only change them through the mind, and actually, they have to change themselves. But you can help the process along through education   and,   you know, getting a message out there to, you know, widespread as you can,   to young people   about this perspective on the world.   Because,   again, like, your assumption that we have to resolve those problems with, like, chopping that guy's head off, you know, right there on the spot or whatever, like,   I don't I think that's what has led us to Well, it would normally be the prescription.  



[01:19:39] Unknown:

That is a very, very small   rare prescription.   The ones going after our kids,   that is definitely the prescription.  

[01:19:48] Unknown:

Well, in in Taoism, I mean, it wouldn't even have got to that state. Like, it's not about how do we handle it. Do we cut the guy's nuts off or something? It's it's the fact that it wouldn't have even you wouldn't even have people like that in the society, in the Taoist society, because it goes against nature, the natural way.   You know? It's so unnatural   for for this kind of behavior that it wouldn't it wouldn't have even arisen in the first place.   You know?   But now that we have to deal with it, that's another that's another matter.   But I can tell you, Daoism itself wouldn't be necessary  

[01:20:23] Unknown:

Yeah. You understand that even inside   so   there's a reason that an anomaly is called an anomaly,   and you can look at this in in is it the same as you can look inside your body.   So no matter what, you have had cancer a 100 times. Marcus has had a cancer a 100 times. I've had cancer a hundred   times.   All of us have.   And what that because what a cancer is is an anomalous cell inside of your body that doesn't match the other cells around it, that it's not operating quite   right.   And so this is a normal thing.   Now,   again, your body's had this 100 and 100 of times all over the place. That's okay.  

That's okay.   When it's a problem is when it forms enough of them together   to start causing a tumor. And then further, when it's a malignant tumor that then starts convincing the other cells around it to be like it,   which is a real, real problem.   Now   I don't see any society   short of this magic utopia of heaven   where there doesn't   the anomalous individual   does not happen.   That is just a a function of the world. Like, even for myself where a lot of people would assume that I was extremely anti gay, I've had gay animals on my farm that were distinctly gay. It's not the norm. I've had thousands of thousands of animals and that's only happened a couple times. That's what an anomaly is. Something that only happens once in a system that is typically   very even and very   similar.  

But anomalies still happen. The ghost in the machine. There's no getting rid of it. And if your society   is not prepared to do that,   whether you can say that that person wouldn't exist,   that person normally wouldn't exist in either society either. But once he appeared,   they again, the axe to the head, that's just for people that would hurt our little kids, and I will hold that position. I don't care. You come after my   kids, that's what you get.   But for everything else,   there was called Skegemar.   And that meant you were banished from society. You have become such a cancer to our society and a bad thing that you're being harmful to us. So you need to get the hell out of me, and you don't get to come back.  

[01:22:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I can guarantee that's what would have happened in Daoism because, you know, it's like you treat you're talking about cancers.   So the Chinese approach Chinese medicine is based on Daoism   too. The Chinese approach to   things like cancer   is not about cutting it out or radiating it, which is the western way is just destroy what's bad. Is to bring up the good.   You understand? So like you bring up the healthy cells. That's how it works. And the the the the yang overtakes the yin and basically dispels.   So it's the same thing in the society we're just talking about now. It's not to say that there's never been somebody like that that might have the desire to dress up, but it's because the fact it's it's become so normalized now, it's become like,   it it's just become accepted. But back in the day, let's say going back to a Daoist society, maybe it was one person. They wouldn't have had the guts to go out and do that or have a drag queen story hour or something like that to begin with. But then if they decided to do that, they would soon learn they would be, you know, ostracized too.  

It'd be the last time they did it. I don't know if they were necessary to say, have their head cut off, but they would be out. I mean, it just   it's it's not to say that there aren't have never been these anomalies.   They exist, but it's whether it becomes accepted   and it and it's okay. And that's how this society is now, obviously. It's a very degenerate, satanic, you know,   society we're in now. But   regardless, the I think that it's just a different approach. It wouldn't have it wouldn't have been commonplace   and I'm not saying that somebody wasn't born   a certain way, but they would not have been, acting on that, you know. So   it's all about the education. I mean, if you're taught morals, it goes back to like, I mean, I think Buddhism works in the prison system. It's like if people are actually taught cause and effect,   then they understand more the result of their crime, it's not just on impulse.  

So I think it's the same with this kind of thing, if people are actually taught what's right then   chances are they probably won't have that desire but even if they did it would be so suppressant,   It would never be acted upon, that kind of thing.  

[01:25:04] Unknown:

So you so you would go you would actually use a prescription of shame because I'm I which I'm not actually debating against   because my thing is is that the biggest thing that we're missing in this society is shame. Like, if people had some shame and we were allowed to shame people instead of being like, oh, it's okay. You're £400   and can't get up off of your couch, you're still shoving £5 of food in your face at once.   No. You're beautiful.   No. You should be shaming.   So they sweat doing these self destructive behaviors at the very least.   If that would be also your prescription?  



[01:25:43] John Roeland:

My prescription would be   would be   they need to go, like, train and and met to meditate at a temple. Learn to meditate at a temple. Like or or learn to meditate anywhere, but specifically at a temple, you go They don't wanna meditate. They wanna eat little Debbie's. What do you do? That's why I'm saying you have to reach you have to get this out there to, like, younger people. It's preventative. Right? Like, you have to educate   the masses   to, you know because I mean, look. I I I see what you're saying. I understand. I know how reality is right now.   The young people are mentally disturbed. They're depressed. They I I see it a lot. I I see I see that happening.  

And   I and, you know, I talk to these people about   these ideas, and it doesn't go in. But   I I still I still believe that it does have the power to help those people. Now it's an uphill fight.   But, again, like you said, on the bad side, if that bad cell starts influencing   people around it and more and more people or, you know, or cells start behaving that way, then the other side comes back. And you can have a healthy,   sustaining society.   But again, within Daoism, there is always   the other side. So   it's I you know, I guess where we're at now is that   the the low end of it. I'm saying Daoism can bring us up as a philosophy.  

And,   so yeah.  

[01:27:16] Unknown:

Anyway, did out of the that your body deals with it is it isolates it.   That's why those cancer things turn into little lumps. It isolates it and then fills that with fluid and keep it away from your the rest of your cells. Like, no. That dude's retarded.   Right?   That's the way your body deals with it. I I do love your optimism, John, and I love that you deal with children. You were the person that should be dealing with children.   I I can't say that in reality, I find where there's ever been   a society that's enlightened in the way that you would like it to be. I I think that even in the DAO, as I look it up,   9,000,000 people practice Dow, which is what? A pimple on China's ass,   give or take. Like, that's a like, a a a village there, give or take, in China.  

You know, the the the so and that, actually, they include Taiwan in that. So it says China and Taiwan. So that's what, like, 8,000,000,000,000   people and, you know, or something like that. Like, all the people.   Like, if you it's them in India and then a couple white people smattered around.   Like, like  

[01:28:28] John Roeland:

Wait till you see my version of it. No. Just kidding.  

[01:28:31] Unknown:

Right. Right.   But,   I I like the idea. I just,   I   and I I like where Adam goes with things.   I think John's version and Adam's version is, I think John's version's a little more,   Disney.   But,   you know, again, he he's one of the,   people that are, bringing in that next generation, and I I love your optimism on that.   And I don't have   lack of optimism of   the children. I don't think generation to generation, we've gotten any better or worse. I think that,   95%   of people just that's not what they're interested in. And because I don't view the class system   in the way that a lot of people do where the lower class is is these horrible people and the upper class is these fantastic people. And I understand in the western world, that's what we've been taught. But on a basic farm, like,   I'm gonna use next door,   example of a kid   that he always wanted to be called Nino, which just meant boy. That's literally what he asked to be called.  

And that wasn't his name, but most white people slaughtered his name, so he just went wanted to be called Nino.   And that he didn't and Nino literally did not even speak English.   And,   he came down to my farm because some other fellas had taken him from Guatemala   and brought him over here to help grow pot, and their pot grow got busted.   And,   they,   these   other Guatemalan folks just left Nino high and dry   and up there. And since they didn't make any money, he didn't earn any money because that's the way, the growing the pot works around here is is you're paid   on a percentage of whatever the end harvest is.  

So,   if there's no end harvest, you got no money. And they and because the bosses didn't make no money, they sure weren't about chucking him a whole bunch of money to take care of himself.   So they literally just left him in a tent up at the top of the mountain here.   So this kid comes wandering down and he's hungry and wanting to do work. Well, this kid don't speak English.   He's obviously the low man on the totem pole, and there's actually I have employees and I have a business and everything else.   Is this guy trash and I'm and I'm some kind of treasure? No. He's eating the same food I'm eating. You know? Because guess what? When that kid was here, oh, god. Like, I had a hard time. He he wore me out just lining him out with stuff to do. Sweet god. Like, give me 5 of those. I might freaking build an empire.   But that doesn't mean that because I'm the decision maker   and I'm doing certain things that he I'm a bigger, better person. Because the fact is is I can't do the work that that guy can do. I can't. I cannot physically keep up with that guy. And he did not know how to line himself out and didn't   most people   at best,   if you tell them a project,   they might be able to complete it. And we all know this. We all know this. You line a person out with something to do. You come back 10 minutes later,   they ain't got it. And for them to actually   be the person to come up with the idea, that's a whole different   level of people.  

And so   this is the class system, and it's only when it's a stagnant class   where you're born into it and you're the leader class even though you don't exhibit any of the leader skills.   Well, then that's bullshit.   But if it's a natural class and he's in society,   if you were a bad leader and you and you weren't proving yourself to be good, oh, no. No. You didn't get to stay. That it it was very, very,   you did the work or else you don't do or else you're out, buddy. And so   it's only when it's a stagnant thing, but the fact is is in the world,   there's only ever gonna be   the reason that there's   the top 1% is the top 1% because there's always gonna be that top 1% of intelligent people. There's always gonna be people that are decent. What we need in our world today is a few good men that are the ones that are intelligent,   have decency,   and also   maintain physical skills   in real world applications.  

All 3 in one person,   we need a few of those dudes   to start running the show instead of letting all the idiots that don't even know how to feed themselves, that are living on welfare,   shoving a 10 pound log in ho ho in their mouth while they sit can't hardly get themselves up to go to the bathroom and telling them how to run society.   That don't function.  

[01:33:42] John Roeland:

Okay. I got a zinger for you.   The reason why Taoism is a preferable   religion,   or, you know, in terms of,   your your connection to God is because in my opinion, Taoism gives the true definition   of what   god or even the source is,   and that it's not anthropomorphized.   So I I prefer   the Tao over heathenism   because they don't anthropomorphize any gods. They're talking about the spirit that runs through all the gods.  

[01:34:21] Unknown:

I I'm not sure.   So I I I I again, this is gonna be a more of a a   ignorance point rather than a, a point point.   So the, the, the classic understanding   is, is that,   heathens, even it's an odinist, that Odin is the creator god, and that's not true. And it's not that's not even the way it's understood in heathenism.   Odin actually has a father. Odin's father is, Bor Burieson.   Bury Bor Burieson and Besla crea have Bor   or have Odin, Vili, and Ve. So Odin's got 2 brothers. There's other beings around.   He's not source   as you're as you're proclaiming it.  

Now where I would say   from what little and again,   this is my own ignorance.   From what little I've seen where   Taoism goes wrong is is it's a top down system   where everything   in comes   and descends   out of   this source,   this,   unknowable thing if I recall the way it was said. So it's funny that the prescription   for societal   things is something unknowable   as described. That was kind of, you know, just hilarious.   But, I get what you're saying a 100%, but it's just funny the way it sounds. Like, you know? Yeah. My prescription for the way everybody should do things is is the great unknowable.   Yes.  

Okay, Gandalf,   motherfucker.   Hey. Yeah. No. Hey. Yeah. But,   where what little, again, I've I caught from it, it was a descending,   paradigm.   Now   in heathenism,   while Odin is who, and or other gods are who we align with, there's an understanding   that,   we live in Midgard.   Okay?   And in Midgard,   we're able   because of   just the physics of things   in a metaphysics   sense, this is this is great too. Right? The physics is what's fucking us up in the metaphysics.   I'm we're sounding awesome.   Totally is gonna work out in a fucking regular debate when my pen decide to fucking stop working.  

[01:36:56] John Roeland:

Yeah. I'll just add real quick that, yeah, there's nothing   to me, that's more,   that would make more sense to people. Like, and again, I'm connecting Taoism with Buddhism. But, like, in Buddhism, they don't ever talk about God,   you know, but they do talk about this spiritual principle   of cause and effect, ultimately,   and that this is and this impersonal force   that is the creational force,   that is   why we're here, and it's actually   more recently,   I've realized that it actually goes beyond morality,   which is kind of interesting. But as Adam made the point yesterday when we talked about this, that in order to tap into that that source,   you have to be you are going to be behaving in a   less harmful,   more what we consider moral way because you can't reach that frequency   if you're vibrating on some other   level.  



[01:37:57] Unknown:

I do have one question. Now if if this was a heathen,   society being taught,   is it possible   to follow that without I mean, are you   worshiping the the gods?   Is that part of it? You have to do that or or is that separate?  

[01:38:15] Unknown:

So the it it it's a polytheistic   society, so in no way would you have to,   worship the gods. But then also   the   the   the   it would be hard pressed to call things a religion.   So, like, when you read the Havamal,   the things in there are, like,   more like proverbs type things rather than religious type things. Like, if you have a good friend,   do not let the grass grow on the path between you. You know, friendships die where long grass grows.   You know, is that a religion?   Or is that just if you've got a good friend, you should hang out, you should keep renewing that friendship so that way it's maintained? Is that just worldly wisdom? I don't you know, there's not,   near as many religious   connotations   where I don't,   where most so what from the way it's almost sounding is is like Buddhist   is the s is the esoteric.  

And when you by the time you boil it down to tau, you're down to the exoteric.   I don't know that there is a particular,   today,   group   that you would call the ex esoteric   of heathenism.   There's individuals.   So in today's   setup   society,   there's one individual called the Vicky.   And a Vicky is almost equal to the chieftain, but he's also not part of the group. So   not really   subject to all those things. He's just a different dude. He's the rune reader. He's the   you know? And and you can see from the stories even classically that there's always that dude outside the village that kinda lives different than the village, but they still   respect what he's got to say and whatnot.  

And that's more of the spiritual Vicky.   And then we had the,   Sorry. I'm trying to make this diagram at the tie at the same time.   Then we had,   the sears, which was, you know, like your vulvas, which was your female side.   Now   the whole reason that,   this happens where we only talk about some gods, John, then.   Odin is an Asgardian,   and we live in Midgard.   And then we also have Hel. So in the stories,   we can deal   with people from Asgard or we can deal with people from Hel because we're in Midgard. So it's a it's a 3 part system.   Well, we can only deal with just the very edges of these parts. Well, then Odin who deal with the elves or the guy anybody from Asgard can deal with the people from Elfheim   and Vanguard.  

The people from hell are able to go lower and deal with these people.   So it's just a recognition that of that. It's not that we think Odin is the creator god.   Now when you're talking about anything   that's descending,   that   this system didn't just   descend from here top down.   There's this system comes here.   This system comes here, and the 2 get pulled together by the all mother, which is what your storage seems to be representing.   And the all mother or the the higher side up here, and then it's when these two collide   that this side is basically you could call this,   infinite potential,   and you could call this side absolute absolute,   you know,   what would you call it? Infinite potential and,  

[01:42:16] John Roeland:

You could call it entropy.  

[01:42:19] Unknown:

Absolute structure maybe.  

[01:42:21] John Roeland:

Yeah. Where It kinda it kinda looks like this.  

[01:42:25] Unknown:

Right. But one side's this side is where the structure is coming from, and the other side is where the,   potential the life potential or this is coming from. And it's where the 2 meet is where we live. So it's not a descending,   and that's   again, could be completely out of ignorance like John just put up the yin yang where it's, obviously   the same balance. But from what I heard from the few things in my, abilities to,   when I was trying to do some pre investigation, you know, you gotta you gotta do some due diligence.   Obviously, Adam is not a   debater, so I wasn't able to go out and look at his other information. But if you're gonna go debate somebody or debate a topic, you obviously   should check it out ahead of time. Like and but, again, just like with heathenism,   the information out there is 99% garbage. I get that. Not blaming anybody for it.  

Not us, anyways.  

[01:43:26] allen marcus:

So let's return let me return to the zinger, John. State your state your zinger again, and then that was bothersome's response to your zinger. I think your zinger was the source of all those not anthropomorphized   in Daoism.  

[01:43:39] John Roeland:

Yeah. That it's to me, a preferable   religion to teach or philosophy would not be anthropomorphized.   It would go straight to   the creational force,   which yeah. That's my opinion.  

[01:43:53] allen marcus:

And Adam has a response.  

[01:43:55] Unknown:

Yeah. I'll just back that up, basically. I mean, you know,   Daoism   going back to the creation is not top down. It just there was nothing. Then there was something   that something created 1, one created 2, male, female, yin yang, you know? And then it became,   6,   8 situations   and and outward. So, really,   it's about harmonizing  

[01:44:17] Unknown:

with Did you say 8? I'm sorry. It's your accent. Did you say 8?  

[01:44:21] Unknown:

8 situations.   Interesting. But   5 5 8 was situations. So, you know,   and it it it's also comes back to I Ching, which is a binary, you know, system for prediction, but everything comes kind of from that.   So it's basically Really?   Really? Yeah.   And so, basically, it's about harmonizing with with nature, you know, the forces and not   worshiping   nature itself. You know? It's just harmonizing,  

[01:44:53] Unknown:

finding balance with it, the natural order of things. Yeah. That's a dead that's a dead that's a that's a dead match right there, though,   the way that functions  

[01:45:04] allen marcus:

between the 2. Gentlemen, I feel like I've been set up. You asked me to be your moderator and your Yeah. Meeting and everything again. Blame John.  

[01:45:12] Unknown:

He's way bigger than you, though. I don't know what you're gonna do about it.  

[01:45:19] allen marcus:

So then   so then I'm gonna step in as maybe a third party to argue against both of you to say that in a western   society,  

[01:45:28] Unknown:

which is based off of maybe Judaic Hey. Listen. You fucking you fucking Christian Trinitarian. You were already ripping off my paper reading off of it over here. You don't even get an argument. I know what yours is because it's my argument. Cheating the sheet. So then my question then is for both sides,  

[01:45:44] allen marcus:

in western society,   specifically,   say, England, America,   English speaking society, western society,   could your worldview,   your idea, your philosophy   that you've outlined tonight, could it survive the cultural appropriation through this,   idea? If if we see, like, when the Beatles come to America and they start talking about yoga and these ideas and the Christians push back and say, no. From a Christian perspective, we have to view the founding documents of America, the constitution,   all the amendments, this type of thing. They'll always do it through a Christian worldview.   So can it survive   through the existing reality of the systems and the culture of   America and England English speaking audience, could it survive   intact   with all of the beauty and the points that you've argued in favor of? Could it survive through this cultural appropriation?  

And then side question to that, which relates to it, is your idea a race,   an ethnic,   and ground based physical on a map,   philosophy? Could it survive in the melting pot of America and England?  

[01:46:55] Unknown:

Wait a sec.  

[01:46:56] Unknown:

What what are you showing us there, Adam? It's not I don't   know why it's Stop moving. Stop moving. We know you Stop. Stop. Stop.  

[01:47:06] Unknown:

There you go.   My words are very easy, Jonathan.  

[01:47:15] Unknown:

We get it. We we we still have these problems.  

[01:47:22] John Roeland:

I would say to answer that question,   I yeah. I do think it can survive. I think it has survived. I guess, the way Ben was describing, you could look at it as esoteric   in that way.   But,   clearly   yeah. I would say that the the there are entities   which, you know, Christianity is probably one of the tools of those entities   to keep us from spirituality.   And I would say   that the neo pagan movement   probably rose as   a response to the empire and what we have now. Because, I mean, from what I've read, I could be wrong, Ben. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But that, like, it kinda came up in the sixties,  

[01:48:09] Unknown:

you know, the this neopagan where they kind of brought back heathenism and the ideas. Oh, American American heathenism and then also not just the sixties because the sixties. So when you're looking at the sixties, that and that isn't in that's correct. The the heathenism that's most prominent in America day today is based off of what's called the Assitru Folk Assembly,   AFA.   And so that was   basically incepted by Steven McNallen   in the sixties.   Not a fan of McNallen myself.   He's still alive, actually. Still around, so this isn't some ancient thing.   And then when even further to actually further John's point,   the   Wiccan move movement is only from the early 1900.  

So what he is calling the neo, and I would absolutely   say leave that neo on there,   movement   is very new,   but   there is other non,   neo   movements that have existed and have always been. And the neo one of the ways you can tell the neo pagan movements,   they   will   bring in any pantheon of gods.   So, like, my one of my favorite sayings is is they treat gods like Pokemon cards.   So they aren't gonna go   immediately to Thor or or let's say I need,   the more love type energy. I would if I was the type of person to call upon different gods, I'm not. But   if I was, then I would go to Freya, or if I wanted if I was going on a sea trip, I I would, you know,   go to the there's specific gods in that pantheon, but you can notice these people jump pantheons   into other pantheons like it's like it's nothing.  

And that's absolutely amazing to me. So this is all   and it's all derivative,   John, of the Theosophical   Society. And this was actually part of their charter   where you can look up the brotherhood,   the great white blood brotherhood.   And this is something incepted by the Theosophical Society in the mid 1800   where they literally took that that brotherhood great white brotherhood.   They sit on some island. I think it's Shambhala or something above us. And Jesus   and Sanath Kumar   and whoever your favorite god is, that's a good one. He's up there hanging out with the other ones from other people, and they're all gonna come down, like, when humanity is is privileged enough and we're, like, needy enough or something. They're all gonna come down and, like, super friends fucking. Superpowers   activate and just start, you know, fucking up society for us, you know, and I I don't know. It it's some absolute nonsense that's all derivative   from the Theosophical   Society.  

And one of the biggest works that they cite in that is Godfried Higgins,   who wrote out of Africa,   which to any occultist   is,   like,   you took an occultist.   You   put him on the heaviest drugs you could. You beat him over the head 12 times with a actual,   actual damn mallet,   and then you asked him to write some stuff. And he's kinda like the doctor Seuss of a cult, just a absolute retard. His book didn't sell it all in the era that it was written. And in fact, the only reason it exists today is because his, like, great grand nephew or something   found it rotten in a in a basement somewhere.  

And the couple copies that were left because nobody would buy them, He pawned off on a bookstore and today's people are so ignorant that they're like, this is genius.  

[01:52:15] John Roeland:

I did wanna bring up just because I brought it up earlier, but and, again, this is kind of a,   more my, like,   a very cursory reading and then going, wait a minute. Is there a connection to this? But,   so Anglo Saxons   claim to be from the Norse.   Correct? Wrong.  

[01:52:37] Unknown:

So Saxons are Germanics.   And when you're looking at it in the migration of those peoples,   the Saxons are actually from Denmark, Germany,   and the Baltic Sea region.   Now Anglo Saxons is a different thing. This is where sack this is where the English and the the,   Saxons started humping a little bit, and they started producing themselves some Anglo Saxons.   But by the time we're talking about the Anglo Saxony,   we've already had,   this is during the time period that we have, like, the,   they say the king Arthur story comes in. King Arthur, of course, being a British blood, you know, to come in and tame all of us barbarians   and show us how to be nice people.  

That's,   that's from that area. So you have, like, the Hadrian's wall   where,   you had,   the   tribal people living to one side and societal people living to the other side.   And so your Anglo Saxons kinda were the 2. That would have been like king Arthur is like the epitomized   Anglo Saxon   where he's supposedly of the English tribal people, but he's where a   Roman came in and probably raped   a a tribal woman and had a kid, and he and then he got sent off the the the actual story then is is then   he got supposedly   that he got sent off, was trained with the Roman Empire. It's a real similar story to,   shit.  

I'm trying to think of the name, the guy who,   led the battle of,   Forest. He was taken from the German tribe,   sent to Rome, trained as a Roman,   got returned to the tribes,   used that knowledge to help defeat the the Roman empire, you know, and drive them off very similar where,   supposedly   he was of the tribes,   but then was trained by Rome, but then was in his knighthood   and duty to Rome was sent to Hadrian's wall to defend.   But yet instead of because he was of both sides, he didn't just beat up the barbarians,   like both sides respected him and blah blah.  

So that's the era that you're looking at there. So King Arthur   would be   the epitome of basically the first Anglo Saxon.  

[01:55:14] John Roeland:

Yeah. So, okay, I pulled it up on Wikipedia. Again, Wikipedia.   Anglo Saxons in some context simply called Saxons are   let's see.   Or the English were a cultural group who spoke old English and inhabited   much of what is now England and Southeastern Scotland in the middle ages. They trace their origins to Germanic settlers   who became one of the most important cultural groups in Britain by the 5th century. So,  

[01:55:41] Unknown:

you know Wikipedia is so bad. So now just type in so now just type in origins of Saxon,   and that's why they had to attach on the word Anglo, you know, Anglo English.   You know, that that that's why they had the Anglo Saxon it. So and it's funny because they even when you're looking at Germanic,   it's funny that they even added in Scottish because Scottish   is basically half Irish because Irish is different too. Like, you know, it's like I got the red hair.   The Irish that's supposedly descendants of Twath de Danann   is who they're supposedly and there's actually a bunch of people. You obviously haven't run across any of this research yet where,   actually   and I don't claim any origin. I don't like any of the origin stories where everything descended from our people, but there's actually a origin out of the 2 up date and on, and that then that's part of why Buddha supposedly was blonde haired and blue eyed and blah blah and everything descended from that direction,   as opposed to the,   UN story where everything's out of Africa. Out of Africa, literally, if you look it up, was a UN charter and where they are the one who's who went and spread that story. It's also they spread feminism.  

They also spread lots of fun things, and they didn't care what religion it was. Again, like I was saying earlier, they mushed it all together. Theosophical society had a wing of the Catholic church broke. They did not care what religion you were. So is there is there a wing of,  

[01:57:14] John Roeland:

heathenism where they do bel like, does the racial issue come up there? Because I know that,   you know, didn't Hitler get   kinda wrapped up in this kind of cultural   belief system, and that's where he came up with root races. And I know that probably came from the Theosophical Society too, but wasn't he like   like he discovered that there was a root race and that they you know, the Aryans are the root race.  

[01:57:41] Unknown:

And Literally look that root race system up. That is literally madame Blavatsky's   baby. Right.   Like, that is entirely   them. That entire system Right. It had in no way, shape, or form is that in heathenism.   That's it. And and in fact,   they even took some of the symbology   and slightly altered it like the Othala symbol.   Theirs has wings that go up where our actual,   elder,   it looks like a a diamond   with legs coming down that are basically   the same as the, you know, top parts of the diamond, almost like somebody was making another diamond but didn't finish it coming out out of the bottom.   Theirs, they put little legs coming up off that.  

So Hitler absolutely   distorted a lot of the things. But on the same token,   most of what you've what you've been fed,   through history channel and things like that and, ed the education system who coincidentally enough for once again owned by the same people who   were the people against that story.   If you ever go in and read mine comp sometime, it's basically as mind blowing as if you go and read the Unabomber's manifesto.   You're like,   hold the hell up.   This guy was   what?   This sounds very rational.   Like, this makes sense. And and that's what you're gonna end up finding. And and I think that, you know,   most movements when you go and you look at the historical time period,   World War 1,   after World War 1, the Germanic people the German people, not Germanic, because Germanic was that entire northern Europe area   where the German people, it's truncated down to that specific country. The German people, the   the,   penalties   and,   just like, Adam was talking about with the taxes,   how you get people to rebel.  

The penalties that were levied against the German people during the time period between World War 1 and World War 2, a retard would have known that that was gonna foment another war. Like that, an entire generation of people were born that were literally slaves   because   you because they were paying,   penalties for actions that they had never even had not happened in their lifetime.   And so any any   fool would have known that that was gonna   Adam just said that that's in their damn text. Like, you overtax the people, you take away everything so they have nothing. They get   mad. Oh,   you know, that's so anybody would have known that the German people were a powder keg of some kind. And when you look at the the actual,   literature   from the   Nazis and from Hitler   and whatnot,   and you don't take the news story you're given, it all sounds very reasonable.  

He talks about in fact,   very similar to today's   national socialism,   he was a national socialist.   Very odd. Right?   And where his was promoting the German people,   promoting,   trying to create a good life for the people. Well, when you're getting beat down as somebody that stands up and says that, that's very e that's a very easy thing to to bring up and and start getting behind. And it's very hard to look at the details of it because those details aren't available to the general public.   And, you know, just like today, the same suffering that we have with our government where none of the I'm sure I don't know where you live, Adam. You have quite the accent,  

[02:01:35] Unknown:

But I'm  

[02:01:37] Unknown:

sure, I'm sure you're not like, yay. The government's the best. My government does all the right things. Yeah. You know? I mean,   so,   you you can,   look at those representative governments, but you can understand that very seldomly does the government actually represent the people that it's governing over.   And and that's never been the case,   a 100%.  

[02:02:09] John Roeland:

Got anything to say, Adam?  

[02:02:12] Unknown:

No. I mean, let's say I'm sure that the when the book is written, I'm sure that Chinese were doing the same thing and hence, that's why Lao Tzu wrote about this as a way of governing the right way. But,   no doubt, peep you know, it came out of people being   taxed to hell, you know?   Kept down. I think it's somewhere in the book too. It talks about, keeping people uneducated and ignorant, you know, which we see certainly through the media. It's,   you know, exacerbated   through   the wonderful media we have today. You know? Everybody glued to, their their information comes from a 2 dimensional screen.   But, yeah, I think it's a again, this book probably came out of, of   the higher morals of how society should be run.  

But as you're saying, you know, I think,   I think Gerald Celente said it best.   When people have got not was   it when people have got nothing,   when people   so what's it now? It's been a long day for me, actually. My brain has just shut off. When people have got nothing left to lose, they lose it.   You know? You know, Gerald Silley, and that's that's just a brilliant quote. I mean, it's just,   yeah.  

[02:03:25] Unknown:

Because what why not?   Why the fuck not? You got nothing to do but go up at this point no matter where it is. You damn straight. And and I and that mentality   was the start of world war 2 for the German people that these people were so beat down.   I get told, you know, similar to what we're seeing where we're seeing a a white nationalist resurgence in the United States right now.   Now part of the reason that I think, John, more to the spiritual side of your question   that you start seeing,   need the news and come out in this. And I know, again, this isn't a debate point against you guys. This is just an explanation because neither of you are representing this in any way, shape or form. But   in Christianity,   what we find is is the basic philosophy   is you were a born piece of shit   that nothing you do will change that fact. You could spend your entire life doing   beneficial things for everyone around you and make the world a better place in its entirety. And you are still a piece of shit no matter what.  

Unless you go to Jesus Christ   and say,   I am yours,   and I give everything to you. And now all of that things that you did are his, and he's the only one that gets you the free pass, which you didn't earn in any way. So in my mind,   Christianity in and of itself   is the the what our society today of   absolute   irresponsibility,   absolute,   everybody being a leech,   to me, that's all derivative of Christianity.   That that's the that's the basis of that religion.   The entirety of it is is you can never be good. You must always get the free ride,   you know, and,   I think that that's chosen everything that we have today.  

Whereas   with heathenism,   again, it's a merit based society.   And   in our   afterlife   system,   there's different area   that you specifically   earn,   which that's not something you guys have touched on, whether there's either an afterlife   or,   end times type story attached with this system whatsoever, which we see in so many other religions that they have,   both those characteristics.   In heathenism,   there isn't an one individual   heaven for good goody boys   and one individual hell for baddy bads.   There's a a just sim similar to the the entire cornucopia   of gods.  

There's a cornucopia   of afterlifes   where,   like,   everybody talks about,   Valhalla.   Valhalla specifically was for shock troops. So if you lived your life   where you   were never fearing dying, you were always ready for the fight, you were always that guy, and we've all met him,   then you,   yeah, you go to there and you get to spend eternity,   every day battling to death   and then coming back   at for supper time and enjoying a feast with the people you were just battling with in this giant practice   to go to war for the end time.   That's a specific person. If you were,   more of a   farmer   that took care of his family and things like that, you went over to Folkvanger   where you were gonna probably go raise a family and teach children and help be part of a, you know, upcoming society, and one of them children might have been a warrior. Who knows? But there was a cornucopia   of people, so there was a bunch of different afterlife. Do either of these things   are either of these represented in this culture?  



[02:07:31] Unknown:

I would say Buddhism would deal with that. Taoism, not so much, but the idea is, you know,   heaven   is kind of   dwelling within the good man, basically. That's that's just the idea. And Taoism basically strives for longevity, which equals immortality.   So the idea is you're aligning with Tao and you become Tao when you pass, but, obviously,   that's connected to the morality of it.   But it doesn't,   it doesn't really deal with punishment.   So I'm in from that inferences,   if you're below a moral person, you perish. And if you are with the Dao, you carry on. But it doesn't talk about Is there a reincarnation  

[02:08:17] Unknown:

in this system?  

[02:08:18] Unknown:

This is, again, not something I've not come across with Daoism. With Buddhism, yes.   But Daoism never ends. So so the thing is with Daoism is   good ending equals good beginning. So it's kind of I mean, the the immortality  

[02:08:33] Unknown:

is also kind of derivative in the the the the never ending system, though, because you're same person. You're just reexperiencing   your time here over   and over and over. And it's, you know,   most likely to learn new lessons every time, so your spirit has it encoded in it or some such thing. You know, however you would wanna look at that metaphysically.   That's that's super interesting.   Says   the belief in reincarnation   is definitely   in heathenism   to the point where,   one of the bigger,   western world criticisms is is that we would kill the formed children.   And that's not out of,   hate   and that's not out of anger.  

It's actually out of extreme belief in this reincarnation   system.   And so if I was to have a child tomorrow   and chances are that I was gonna have half a dozen kids,   well, them kids are all my relatives. They were people that lived before me that brought me here, their loved ones, and they're sacred.   And,   if one of my loved ones is born into a deformed body, they're gonna have a horrible life,   especially in a in such an independent   rugged world.   And so if you go ahead and kill that one,   you're not ending their life, you're just getting them a new car. Like, you you they're gonna come back. They you're not stopping that. They're still gonna come back. They you know, next year, whatever.   Only next year, they're not gonna be in a busted ass car. They're gonna be in a Lamborghini. Like, that's gonna be awesome for them. And so   a part of that, and I think that that's also part of the problem with the world today,   is this which you aren't you aren't representing a you only live once type with because in that, there also includes no afterlife where you're representing   an afterlife, but it's somewhat   ephemeral,   like, not something I can necessarily grasp onto, like, you're there forever, but   are you doing anything? You're   you're I I don't I don't I don't know. You know, it's it's what what you've given anyways has been very ephemeral.  



[02:10:53] Unknown:

Can I ask you a question of, like okay? This is   Buddhism also, why we're not going into Buddhism, but Buddhism obviously deals with reincarnation   and cause and effect karma. So I'm wondering, like, from heathenism perspective, when you like you said about you have a relative who's born disabled and you decide they can't survive, you you you're basically maybe doing them the favor.   So   from a Buddhist perspective,   cause and effect, you're talking about this person's   karma   led them to this case.   So they have to kinda live through that karma. So if it's taken away, then will they not be reborn just the same way again? Because they haven't changed their their own karma. So, like, how does heathenism deal with   that that per you know, that perspective?  



[02:11:39] Unknown:

So we don't while we do have, obviously, cause and effect, I don't think in,   not that I can unless, you know, somebody else can go through the texts, you know, that we have and find something   representative of karma,   that, this basic universal   almost tally system,   that,   I don't think that there's any representative   of that in any way that I've ever noticed.   My question with that type of system then, and it always has been, is,   how does that not take into account? This is making an assumption that   every single thing that's ever been   is   all tied together and   and shit doesn't just happen. And in my reality experience, and I understand that they're then stretching this out over eons. So eventually, this guy that was doing good here and doing bad things will be doing bad here even if he's doing good things. I get that.  

You know?   The   but the fact is is in your human body, which   we basically   you have the all, which is what you guys I believe are calling source. Either you're calling the all source or you're calling Ganunga gap source. I'm not really grasping which one   because we would have to probably spend another 2 years talking to each other for us to grab grasp the complexities of these things.   I get that. And I'm really enjoying your thing, and I understand that actually,   I don't know that yours is either of those because if that was the case,   Adam is putting up   numbers and things that match too fucking closely like they're dead on. Like the 8 part system.  

8 part comes from the the 3 part that while 3 doesn't seem to go into 8, 3 actually makes 9. You're standing on 1. So that one that you're standing on, even if there's 9 spots, you're standing on 1, there's only 8 paths. So that's why 8 is always 9, and that's how that all pans out,   in the mystical   sets. So I I get where this is coming from, and I can immediately make these these leaps because it's the same fucking system.   So I can't honestly say that I think that  

[02:14:10] John Roeland:

I found a a concept maybe close   to cause and effect. It's,   and again, it's, you know, it's,   word,   like wyrd,   is a concept in Anglo Saxon culture roughly corresponding to fate or personal destiny,   and it's the cognate term   to word in old Norse is   with a similar meaning, but also personified as a deity.  

[02:14:37] Unknown:

It's it's it's weird.  

[02:14:40] John Roeland:

It is weird.  

[02:14:41] Unknown:

That that's how it's pronounced, and it's that's why when you say you're weird,   I don't take that offensively.   A person that is not weird, here's what's interesting about this. Is this kinda makes a recognition   between   normal people and people that are a little different. And so a weird person   is a person that actually takes control of their destiny.   A not weird person, a normal person is a person that they're already woven into the pattern.   They're they're doing what they're supposed to. They get in that spot. This is where you belong. This is where you belong in this picture. That's where you go. And they're like, yes. Thank you.   Where a weird person   and   takes control of the weave and says,   maybe I like this a little better and will change the pattern. And so that's literally what weird means.  

And then the ord   is from the well of ord, u r d,   where that's the well that they,   the 3 norms   who control   the web,   sit around the well of Urd.   And, again, that number of 3   actually equaling the 3 overlapping equaling into the 8, which is what Adam was talking about that. So I was like, no shit.  

[02:16:05] John Roeland:

Yeah. That's the, yeah, the Trinity.   Everything's The symbol the symbol of the,   the runic compass   is very similar to the 8 trigrams.   Yeah. And, it'd be interesting. You know, I don't know. I think you guys interviewed on, weaving spiders, the thunder wizard.  

[02:16:24] Unknown:

No. I I, I do know who you're talking about, though. Feel free to keep going. I I do. He's kind of he's kind of  

[02:16:31] John Roeland:

meshed these two belief systems,   just in his own personal life and kind of how he teaches. He   he has, like, a Thor meditation.  

[02:16:42] Unknown:

But I enjoyed his rune,   meditation where he was orally doing the runes.   It's been, like, 6 years, 7 years since I heard it, but it was, I thought that 3   videos he did each of the food works, I thought it was pretty excellent.  

[02:16:59] John Roeland:

Yeah. But I do I I do think in in looking at this, there's I'm not surprised.   There are connections. And I think where I would say a distinction lies is that the Tao Daoism does seem to bit be a bit isolationist,   where   heathenism is more focused on   social bonds and relationships   in its in its stories   and folklore. Now, again, there is another book called the Zhuangzi,   which is, like, considered one of the top Taoist books too, which I've never read.   But it's more poetic, and that may get into more, like, personal stories.  

[02:17:39] Unknown:

But Yeah. But Chang's too he he was the one who said, you know,   talking to his disciple, you know,   who had a dream. And he said, you know, he dreamt that he was a butterfly.   And he said, well, how do you know   you're you're a man dreaming of a butterfly and not a butterfly dreaming you're a man? You   know? Just follow those kind of poetic ideas.  

[02:18:00] John Roeland:

Yeah. But there are I mean, there's definitely connections. I actually did a search on, did they ever cross paths, but it said they most likely would not have culturally   except through the,   the the Silk Road.  

[02:18:14] Unknown:

Well, I said we had the Huns in between us, and the Huns were a pretty,   you know, you just didn't fuck with those people. There was just no no reason.   Like, they were   angry dudes.   Actually, in the, Eddas, some of the characters are Huns because   the heathens and the Huns faced off a few times.   Unlike Rome,   we didn't kick their ass. It it didn't it didn't go like that. It wasn't great. So we said we don't like fighting these guys. Let's not do that.   So,   to the point where   even,   again, current day,   there's the overlap where you see a lot of people talk about Tartaria today,   which if you actually put any study into it, well, a, you're gonna pop up with a whole bunch of old world. This was some kind then that's some weird stuff from today.  

But what you'll end up finding is is that pre Russia,   again, Russia being the Bryngian guards   that were released from service, and that was the land that they were allowed to settle after they're released from service.   Current day Russia   overlaid   the Tartarian   Empire,   which they were nomadic. So it's not like they were conquering a city,   but it was kinda like moving into a wolverine's   range. Like,   you know, even though he wasn't there today, that's still his range. He's gonna when he gets here, he's gonna be mad.   He's not gonna be cool with this.  

And so,   these were nomadic people. And so you see that overlap right when you overlay Russia onto   old school Tartaria where that was literally vikings and heathen or vikings and,   Huns   interacting.   And we don't get to what John's talking about until we get down into   what we're talking about right now, they call Indo,   Europe.   And then you get down into,   Indo Europe or Indo Asia, and then you get down below that, you get into actual Asia where it's what these guys are representing. So there was a swath of real badass people in between that you just didn't wanna cross for no reason.  

[02:20:30] John Roeland:

I'll say this too. I know we're probably coming to an end pretty soon, but,   I've kinda come to this   idea that, you know, Christianity,   it it kinda bastardized Taoism too in a way,   where it kinda made Jesus a,   bit of a rabble rouser.   And,   I kinda think it's kinda, like, put us on a path of, like, we have to resist this evil and, like, you know, it's I don't know. It's it's, you know, he says he's the way. You know, he kind of presents that, but then he has to get killed.   So if you live that way, you're gonna get killed.   There's some psychological stuff going on there. I just think that,  

[02:21:15] Unknown:

you know, that's just He got killed for you, John.   Why are you talking bad, John? Look. He died for you. What do you mean psychological stuff? I I think he's like the mill I think Christianity is the militant arm of,  

[02:21:30] John Roeland:

Judaism   and Rome, maybe. You know? Maybe a a combination of both. But, anyway, that's another topic. It's it's past 2 hours. We're not on the bone.   I'm passing it to whoever.  

[02:21:45] Unknown:

I feel like if we had an Abraham in the room, that would be an interesting debate. We just don't have one of those available,   where I would if if I was debating in Abrahamic, the first place I would go is that similar to Alexander the great,   one of the areas this discussion started at   where   Alexander the great's,   conquering,   philosophy was let people keep their traditions and their holidays   and pay their taxes to me, and we'll all be good.   So in my opinion, Christianity was always an invented   Abrahamic,   psychological   weapon, as John said,   in order to,   put down   the Saxon and Germanic people   in order   to to in order to to suppress their psyche.  

And in order to do that, they had   to incorporate   many elements   of,   heathen   worship and,   religious practices,   in everything from Christmas to the trinity   to,   Easter,   which again, if you look at an actual match that to the Israeli area, like even something so simple as rain reindeer.   There's no reindeer in Israel.   They don't exist there. They never have. They they just it's just not from there. Where are reindeer from? Greenland.   You know, the the frozen north where all the stories are from. Santa Claus who magically looks just like Odin and rides on this thing called Odin's wane, which this goes to the sky clock that real Ryan or die is asking about, where Polaris   the heathen people were a polar,   people.  

And Odin's wane is the dipper that swings around Polaris.   And then that's,   the tree is,   Yggdrasil.   And then as the season gets longer,   Santa's thing swings out, and then it   swings back in as it goes up. And the seasons get shorter, and then they get longer.   And that's Santa going up and down that chimney with glee, blah blah blah.   All those things are super easy to match. Even the flying reindeer because we have a red and white amanita muscaria mushroom, which the reindeer themselves would eat and then piss in their own mouth to get extra high from it. But, hey, that's an Israeli story. Right?   And so   they subsumed   our things in order to and kept our holidays in order to because the common person,   if you still give them the same days off   and you still let them do pretty much the same things, they don't really care what the name is. Oh, I'm paying taxes to King George. Oh, I'm paying taxes to John.  

Yeah. Same same.  

[02:24:47] allen marcus:

And that seems to be,   answer to the question I asked earlier.   Does   heathenism,   does Daoism   survive   the cultural export from its place of founding   to another location?   So if we have this multicultural   American melting pot situation where we're we're now importing   a larger Muslim audience,   and now you guys are arguing or not arguing, do we bring in more of a heathen perspective into our our governance in society? Do we bring in more of a Buddhist society?   So   if in an organically   forming,   on, without subversion,   without any sort of,   grass,   roots efforts, in quotes to door to door knock on your door and ask if you have wanna watch our magazine or if you wanna learn about Jehovah or Jehovah or, you know, be a witness to this entity.  

So with multiculturalism   in an English speaking   culture,   having the difficulty of   having the original idea survive   in this cultural appropriation idea where we can go to a Target store and buy a Buddha statue.   Right? So it's it's sort of what you're talking about, Balderson, of the super friends idea or the, Pokemon Pantheon   of we recognize   all of the world's stories,   but then in our living, we reject them all because we're Americans. So because American America has the founding story of the pilgrims on the Mayflower   who came   to bring order and peace to   a a land ruled by red skin   Injuns who were backwater and killed each other, and they were a warring faction within themselves.  

So then white guys come, find a rock, build a rock, build a church, and then   they were ex escaping   religious persecution. So they come to America, and then somehow time passes and the religious persecution   shifts. So now the the ruling   philosophical,   esoteric,   religious,   philosophical idea   begins to   impose all of its ideas.   Now maybe we'll get to a week where we'll address the issue of Christianity be being used to suppress   heathens, the question might be asked for or against the idea. Was Christianity   formalized   in literature and oral tradition for the sole purpose   of a,   governmental   control system. So was it used to suppress heathens   all along,   or was it a natural   organic,   a real carpenter born in a manger, the story of a literal   Christ figure born of a virgin? These have did that literally happen? Was it organic from the very beginning?  

And then at some point, as people got   to take it onto themselves and write documents and literature and poetry based off the ideas, they'd become something else. That's a separate argument. We'll need to find   people,   multiple people, with a position   where they are defending   Christianity through through apologetics,   through literature, through all through history and all this.   We're not   defending that position. We don't have that knowledge. We don't have that passion to defend that position.   We're talking and ending our discussion tonight about   heathenism   and dowsm   and how   both ideas may share some similarities and compatibilities. There might be a deeper perennial philosophy   that they both share.  

And if those ideas could   survive   and thrive   and have a positive influence   to the decline of western civilization.   Gentlemen, do we have any final remarks or arguments or jabs or zingers?  

[02:28:48] Unknown:

As to what Marcus said, and I'm sure John and I are actually on the exact opposite page of this. Not that, we don't both wanna end up at the same spot at the end, to be honest,   and the same with Adam. I don't know that Adam's actually not more on my page with this with this part with this particular thing.   John seems a little bit more pie in the sky and, Adam seems a little more on the realism end of things where I think John is gonna believe that it is possible for some   excellent,   religion to come in and just be so enlightening and people find so awesome that they just suddenly become awesome people.   And   I don't believe that there is any   societal prescription at this point that is gonna fix this.  

And I think that   what I myself   want to do is is, like John,   pass some things on to the young because   the thing that I see going on gonna happen here right now   is that,   this society is doomed. And I'm not trying to say this is a doom, you know, purveyor,   but   society is doomed. That don't mean all of us are. That means that these people living in the city, these big lecherous cancerous spots that can't provide for themselves,   yeah, those people are gonna eat themselves alive. And the thing is is when that first happens,   it's gonna the system's gonna start breaking down and people are gonna get hungry.  

Then we're gonna see the worst of people, and then people are gonna realize they're still fucking hungry. And then then we're gonna start seeing the ones who are actually understand how to do a productive system start showing up again. Like, hey, guys. I know they're smashing each other and stealing and all that. It's been fun.   It's been kinda great, but you know what? It only feeds us, like, once every couple months, and I like eating daily.   So you you remember that thing where we farm fields and we can and we start doing things like that? And that guy will already have been doing that because here's the funny thing and and something today's society seems to have forgot,   that you can't feed people out of a field you can't haven't planted.  

So we have a million gurus out there telling you, all these different ways to live, and they aren't living any of them. None of these people talking about it. So eventually, what you're gonna get to is real dudes actually eating food, and people are gonna go,   I like food.   And and that's when we're gonna start seeing competent men take charge again. And I don't think anything's gonna make that happen in between besides   the absolute failure of these other ways.  

[02:31:33] John Roeland:

Okay. I'll give you the the opposing view is that   through technology,   through technological   advancements,   through   more people understanding these basic concepts of just starting with breathing correctly,   sitting down,   closing your eyes,   going inside,   figuring out what you're thinking about, figuring out what's stressing you out, re   separate   the   what is really there in your mind, that emptiness versus   all the signal coming in   of, you know, this material world we've created.   And get into that flow   that if we can do that with enough people and put that into the education system, that I have faith in humanity,   especially   at younger ages. Because I think if we were to teach this to middle school kids, they're probably at, like, the height of their power. Now, unfortunately, a lot of them are getting damaged before that.  

But   there is a there is a generative power within us where we create from within,   you know, without what we're projecting.   So   we we we teach these basic concepts that don't have to be   framed as a religion.   Although, I would argue ultimately, it's the true religion. It's the way that we are supposed to be living in balance with nature,   accepting death, accepting,   you know, the reality of what we experience. So   through that, we can avoid a catastrophe or a a war of all against all, as Rudolf Steiner said was inevitable.   The war of all against all,   that instead,   we could subvert that   and detach from society   and slowly create the same tribal system that probably Ben is talking about, but without the catastrophe. And I wanna add one more thing.  

What if the Yi Xing and the code that matches in this in the Norse religion   is the matrix code?   It runs all computers.   Right? It's the signal that they're putting out   from the freaking tower in the movie They Live,   and we have to block it out.   So anyway, that's my ending. Good good good deliberation.   Go ahead, Adam.  

[02:33:52] Unknown:

Oh, I mean, I think I funny enough, I mean, I'm agreeing with Ben. I mean, I I see the writing on the wall. It's it's that certain things are inevitable,   but I like to have some positivity, and I do think that it's the future generations that can be educated to, you   know, everything is cycles,   you know.   And so we're coming back to an end of something as long as the future it is taught. I mean, it's not ignored and people have to think of the future, but it's I don't think it's an immediate remedy.   I mean, I think also in terms of Daoism, I think the principles of it, it's a universal principle. So it doesn't have to be attached to any kind of as a religion. It's a philosophy. It's a way of life. So it's kind of in that sense, people can be taught to be more compassionate, to be more, you know,   reduce desires and these kind of things.  

But I think it's,   yeah, like you say, it's a cycle.   So I think now it's still at least the children can be educated. Unfortunately, right now,   I mean, I've said years ago, I said to people, if you took a 100 people   randomly,   strangers, sit them down, tell them to sit on a chair   for 10 minutes, quiet, close your eyes.   I don't think many people could even do that because culturally,   it's mad. It's a it's a sickness.   The mind is gone. I mean,   ability to yeah. Just to have any I mean, what do they say? The tension span is now 7 seconds. That's what we're told, allegedly. Maybe it's not true. But for sure, I mean, you can see gross.  

[02:35:25] Unknown:

Super gross.   Super gross. And and and as far as I can tell, true,   like, literally, and this isn't to criticize my dad. My dad, when he visited not this time, but the time before and I had to chew him out about it, he would ask me questions.   And before I could answer, he would be watching a TikTok video. Or the and I don't think it was TikTok, but the same, you know, concept, 15 second clippy thing, and he wouldn't even hear my answer. Like,   what are you doing, dude?  

[02:35:54] Unknown:

Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, the idea of educating children to be still quiet in the mind in that, for them, it's almost torture. So   there will be some that can,   but the majority now, it's it's just,   they don't have that self   discipline to do that.  

[02:36:13] allen marcus:

Adam, are you a teacher of these techniques?   Yeah. I do. I do teach meditation. Yeah. And we can access that information through a website?  

[02:36:22] Unknown:

Some. I mean, I'm I've got articles, but I'm trying to think about anything specifically on meditation. Maybe not. Maybe one for the future.  

[02:36:31] allen marcus:

But   s I f u, wallace, w a l l a c e? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Sifuwallace.com.   Sifu.  

[02:36:39] Unknown:

How do you say that? Sifu. Yeah. This means teacher. Teacher. Yeah,   Wallace, the last name. So, yeah. But, you know, so I I believe in the hope. I like to have I mean, I I you know,   I've I've way I ride the waves. I mean, I know like some people   it's all doom and gloom.   I see the reality around me. I see what's happening.   The rise of,   absolute degeneracy and this kind of thing is being encouraged.   It's a it's a it's a battle right now. And, obviously, right now, I would say evil is ascending,   but that's not to say it will triumph   ultimately. It's all, you know, like I say, like a cork riding the waves.  

But I think you still have to plan for the future and educate the people for the future so that when the time comes, they also have a moral code.   That's my take.  

[02:37:29] Unknown:

Thank you very much for coming, Adam. It was it was a pleasure meeting you. I'm glad you got that. But  

[02:37:36] John Roeland:

Yeah. That was a lot of fun, guys.  

[02:37:39] Unknown:

So, you know, sorry for being kinda unclear maybe about what I was thinking, but I You know what? It it I'm not it's not it's not even that, John. You know? And that's okay. You know? We're as these debates come up, this is something that we're gonna have to come in. And and   these people have more practice on this, so they're able to kinda hone it down. So, like, when I was looking at my opening statement,   like, when I've heard other people speak about heathenism,   they,   you know, they get very broad and and   similar to what you did in your opening, and I'm not even criticizing your opening. I thought it was great.  

But where they just started, you know,   listing stories and things. And and   and what I had   to stop and think about is I had 3 minutes. And I even timed and practiced my thing. And and and when we go back, I'm sure it was right around 3 minutes. And, you know, because I'm trying to because in some debates, they're gonna cut you the fuck off. You know, you don't get to say that last sentence, which might be the key to the whole thing. Right? Like, who wants to tell a joke and not get the punchline?   But,   when I did that, I had to become concise. So I had to boil down   what I was gonna say in that opening, understanding that later, if there was gonna be questions, I would get to flesh out   some of those more keys that I had boiled it down to. And so I think we're gonna have to be on that task, and this was wonderful for doing that where we're not,   very antagonist   antagonistic   against each other.  

And in in the future debates where I feel like, where the our group is all gonna mostly be going against Abrahamic's because that's 99% of the people out there,   of some flavor Abrahamic.   It is gonna get more antagonistic,   without a doubt. So I think this was good. And then what we need to pull from it is is just the way to harness down and narrow down the lanes. Because each of the lanes was good, but where do they fit in each debate? And narrow that down because we're, you know, we are 40 minutes over what we expected.   Well, in a normal debate, they're gonna wanna keep that specific.  

We gotta learn to be concise   even if they can being concise is gonna cut off some of the good information. We have to understand that people that are become interested based on what we say,   we should have faith that they're gonna go and   study further. So that one person that does that. Yay. You.  

[02:40:16] allen marcus:

Yeah. I absolutely agree. We don't wanna bury the headlines in debate. We wanna get to the strongest point first. Repeat, repeat, repeat. We're in a sound bite culture. You guys both agree that   brain rot happens when the attention span is shortened. People can't sit still. We've gone 2 hours 40 minutes. That's probably   2 hours 40 minutes longer than most people have an attention for on YouTube. So we do have   this content available for you to download an audio form, podcast form with an RSS subscription to a feed so you can play it back, pause it, rewind it, listen to it over and over again. That's very good. And, also, we wanna thank our sponsor, Ricola,   tonight for helping us get through this without scratchy throats and coughing. Bring it back, Ricola. Ricola for sponsoring us in our debate team. Thank you again.  



[02:41:05] John Roeland:

Recovid.   No.   There go the sensors.   Alright, guys. Good job. Have a good night.