Tradition vs. Modernity: Navigating Faith and Masculinity
Orthodox Christianity and the Red Pill: A Clash of Cultures
Faith, Masculinity, and Modern Society: A Spirited Debate
Urban vs. Rural: Defining Masculinity in Modern Times
The Purpose of Life: Morality, Faith, and Societal Expectations
Our guest, Martae, shares his experiences growing up in a Pentecostal church and his journey towards Orthodox Christianity. The conversation explores the purpose of life, morality, and the challenges of maintaining traditional values in modern society. We also touch on the role of masculinity, the importance of being a provider, and the impact of societal expectations on personal beliefs.
The debate heats up as we discuss the implications of living in urban versus rural environments, the role of tradition in defining masculinity, and the influence of modern culture on religious practices. The conversation also delves into the red pill community, the challenges of maintaining Christian values in a secular world, and the importance of personal accountability.
[00:00:00]
Steve :
Well The dancing was of the devil. That rhythmic activity was something that would lead me to Satan. That does seem pretty, like, to fly in the face of what you're saying. I I hear what you're saying. I grew up in a Pentecostal church as well too. Okay. Like, I would have a air God. What was your church? I had a yeah. COG. Same thing. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I knew My hometown held camp meeting, bro. We the I'm from Anderson, Indiana. We had all of the churches of the Church of God come to our town every year so that we could have a massive revival every year. You make drums. That's the church I grew up in. So I might step in here and say we have we have three Pentecostals on the panel, one Odinus who's waiting very patiently.
[00:00:46] allen marcus:
I'd like to then take the question that was asked again and maybe maybe rephrase it because, Marte, you asked the question about morality and purpose. So then I will ask both of you, Marte and Balderson, is the purpose of this life to become a more moral man, or is the purpose of this life to learn how to love your fellow man, to reduce your enemies, to make more loving connections to other people? Is the purpose of this life to not have any enemies?
[00:01:25] Unknown:
I'll
[00:01:27] Martae Rayless:
I'll say this. You can't avoid not having enemies because as long as there's a good, there's going to be an evil. If you have a dark, there's gonna be light. So you you're gonna have a contrast, and the reason why we have evil and if you never had this, you would never have any glory. So this is the thing that we have as far as, like, constructs and ideals that we have. So as far as Christian ethics, I think that it is good to become more Christ like, although I will agree with Benjamin. It's almost like mission impossible has been presented to us. There's it's, like, a standard that's almost impossible to, fulfill or maintain, but that's the beauty of this. We're fighting our human nature. And if you look at human nature, this is the question that it did get answered with, when I asked Steve, like, what is the bad? What is the negative that I'm talking about? And I think that if he talked about these negatives, I I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but I think that if I could revert this to my understanding and say the negatives, these would be like our own personal desires and things that go, lean towards selfishness, robbing our man of certain, attributes and things like this. I think society, we see this right now in in, Israel and right now in America. So we're fighting this. So when you talk about enemies and we don't wanna create enemies, it's inevitable. We're gonna create enemies because as long as we're fighting for good, what's going to be the opposition? There will always be this. It'll constantly exist. So I think martyrdom is one thing that's we could see in our saints, in our our spiritual fathers that we have. They we have martyrs. People that didn't have a dollar value or any amount. They weren't materialist at all. They're willing to die for a greater good in in pursuing something that's beyond them. They're They're willing to lay their life down for their man, things like this. So we have this in Christ in them, but I do wanna hear Benjamin's take on this.
[00:03:08] Unknown:
Yeah. So where the bads coming gonna come in is that nothing you do is gonna matter except for accepting Christ, which is as unaccountable as anything I could imagine. It doesn't matter how much I'm I tell people I could in my heart of hearts of every bit of me, love Odin and be on team Odin. And if I am a piece of shit person, guess where I'm going? I'm going to the bad place where you're torn apart by wolves for fucking until the next cycle. Like, that that's it's not gonna be fun. It doesn't matter what I what it matters how I act in this life. And it's that unaccountability that leads us to this very unaccountable society we live in now where nobody has any account for any of the actions.
And and and, heathen cosmology and Odin's cosmology, they're even the gods are not are not free from the subject of their actions. If they make fucked up actions, fucked up results are gonna come. Odin's very specific in the about if you do this, like, despite how Hollywood portrays Germanics, they actually did not drink and did not drink or did not drink in excess. Because Odin teaches if you and and this is one of the most prevalent things throughout the entire throughout the entire Havamal that if you drink too much, you will get yourself in trouble. You'll lose your head. It's all gonna be bad. I did this once. I and then I ended up being the cap captive of a giant, and and there's an entire saga behind it. And it all starts because Odin went and got drunk and left himself vulnerable.
And so the the idea is is whatever your actions are here are gonna carry you into whatever place you get taken to in the afterlife. There's numerous a a pantheon of places to go if you're a decent person, a pantheon of them because it's gonna suit you. I'm a farmer. Where do you think I'm gonna go? Where the farmers go? Because farmers are very much needed for any society. If you gotta fight gonna be a fighter, there's a place for the fighters. There's one choice for the people that are the fucking oath breakers, the the the friend killers, the things like that.
And as you pointed out, Tyr, when he because he was the biggest betrayer because he was Fenrir's friend, his best friend. He lost his sword arm, and because of that, there the the fall of the gods was doomed because this this head of the spear was cut off.
[00:06:12] Steve :
Well, we we morality tale in every other religion, by the way.
[00:06:18] Martae Rayless:
Right. But here's the thing, though. When you when you talk about accountability, we have plenty of this. And when you talk about you're not responsible for your decisions, yes, you're very responsible for everything that happens to you. But the thing that Christianity well, when you talk about Christ god? It's not according to god? You didn't god didn't do the good things? Well well, here's the thing though that I'm gonna say is we have repentance. So, I think a lot of times we tell people, like, no. You can't do certain things and things are usually black and white. No. It's not that simple. That's why we have, like, spiritual fathers that you could talk to. We have, like, two thousand years of church history where we could refer to, like, in that postalic secession, which I don't think that Odinism really has. 1800.
[00:06:57] Unknown:
September. Eighteen hundred years.
[00:07:01] Martae Rayless:
Well, I would say too because we're talking about Ethiopian history too. So you we you have to add all that. So here's the thing that I would say.
[00:07:08] Unknown:
We do have to claim Ethiopian,
[00:07:11] Steve :
by the way. What's that? The the Orthodox are claiming Ethiopian tradition for Christianity? Well, I'm just gonna I don't usually hear that argument for I'd like I'm I'm open to accepting it. I really am. I am it's just I think there's a a new
[00:07:30] Unknown:
And and by the way, Owen's been around longer.
[00:07:34] Steve :
I but regardless, no. That's that's a new thing for me. It it is. So please, like, I'm yeah. Let me let me hear about it.
[00:07:42] Martae Rayless:
Well, first of all, let me let me, I I have to actually for me to be, honest here with you guys, I'm a catechumen. I'm not like so when you talk about Orthodox Christians, I'm operating underneath a handicap. And when I say this, Alan, I need you also listen to this. When I'm operating underneath the handicap, I can't really do, like, an exegesis of strip scripture and then do a deep dive on Orthodox history like that because but here's the thing, though. I don't think I was really, transparent about this because I was at school, and I was being I was being messaged. I never also turned out debates too. That may be a vice of mine. Right? So let me be forthcoming. So I can't do, like, a exegesis completely because what's going to happen is that if I have a slight fumble or, or or at least something that's a little off, the ortho bros will come for me, and I will get I will get talked to, pulled to the side. Ortho bros.
[00:08:38] Unknown:
Come for us, you chicken shit little bitches.
[00:08:43] Steve :
But here's the thing, though. Liberal agenda
[00:08:45] Unknown:
is Christian unaccountability. Fight me.
[00:08:50] Martae Rayless:
We we do have accountability
[00:08:52] Unknown:
in Christianity. But here's the thing, though. What gets you to heaven? What gets you to heaven, bro?
[00:08:57] Martae Rayless:
What gets me to heaven is my heart. And not only this, but my spirit What's your heart gotta do?
[00:09:03] Unknown:
Repentant.
[00:09:04] Martae Rayless:
Being a repentant person. Yes. What's your heart gotta do? One thing. One thing. What is it? What is it? I have to give my life to Christ. I have to submit to Christ. It is.
[00:09:16] Unknown:
There it is. Doesn't matter how bad of a piece of shit you are. That one thing is your key. Guess what? That's not a secret in my people. You can't be a piece of shit. Here's the problem with the good places for it. Here's the problem that you're going to run into.
[00:09:35] Martae Rayless:
When you have something that's very, I would say, when you don't have a pathway for anybody to change, what good would redemption be? Be? What good would any baptism be on your end if you have that? It's like, if I was really that person redemption. There's no opportunity for change on that end. That doesn't really make any sense there. You think I haven't done shitty things in the overall
[00:09:56] Unknown:
in the overall calculation of my life? That's why every one of them has, like, the whole your heart in a in a feather on the scale. Because if you've lived a decent life, you know you're a decent person. It's not that I haven't done fucked up shit. I've I've lied. I've betrayed, you know, done things against my friends. Very and let me tell you what, it did it wasn't cool for me anytime. That's why people always say I'm strict as shit. Like, they you know, like, it's like living with the drill sergeant because all I I I learned real quick never to make those mistakes again because it haunted me. It haunted me. And because of that, I act as a good, very honorable person. And because of me doing making that choice because I could make a different choice. I could've kept doing those other things, and I didn't. We all go through that, and even the gods make mistakes. But if you continue to be that shitty person, that's where you're gonna pay the penalty. Not if you go and say, oh, but I love Odin.
[00:10:58] Martae Rayless:
Odin's gonna be like, who's big? It's perfect like that, though. Okay? It doesn't work like that. You can't just up and say, I turned my life over to Christ. No. This has to be If if if the day if if I was a a a a homicidal That's that's not fair, though, because according to every event of that before I died, I gave my life to Christ, and I truly felt it in my heart. Do I Doesn't work like that. Doesn't work like that. The only exception we have is a thief on the cross. He's the only exception I can ever name. So it's very hard. So it doesn't really have him, bro? It it doesn't really work like that, though. It doesn't really but
[00:11:32] Steve :
it it just Every church, it works like that, though. Everyone That's the problem.
[00:11:37] Martae Rayless:
You're talking about denominations after a schism. People made up their own stuff and cherry picked. You're talking about this. Like, I could talk about the red pill community, but which one? That's the problem, though. Let me ask you a very direct, very specific problem you're running into. It's the same problem. Integration. You have to be a Christian. Hang on. Let me let me just
[00:11:58] Steve :
I'm I'm a little I'm a little high We hear Steve clearly. That.
[00:12:03] Martae Rayless:
All of a sudden a little social like You're sure you're not Wayne's World being a little high. This is crazy. Go ahead.
[00:12:09] Steve :
But, like, a little bit. Just a way. This is how I talk. Are you shaming me?
[00:12:16] Unknown:
I just want
[00:12:18] Martae Rayless:
I'm not shaming you. Is that what I'm doing? No. I'm not just No. I don't know what it is. A little high I could get way higher. I could. I promise.
[00:12:27] Steve :
I'm just you know, I'm at a a a, like, tiny little working buzz right now, but I'm trying to get my head around the fact that the promise of Christianity, the way that my pastor grandfather taught me was that you could have deathbed confessionals and and redemptions. And the way that I always posed it to him was, so you're telling me that you can go on a rampage of sin for years or decades. And at the precise moment that you know you're gonna die, you're gonna be like, never mind. I love God. And he was like, well, that's what the book says.
And so if it's what the book says, then, yeah, that's kind of how it's gonna be. And I was like, what?
[00:13:26] Martae Rayless:
That's weird. I don't know. Sola scriptura, what you're talking about. It's just going by the book. So if you think about this, which came first, Christianity or the Bible? Christianity came first. Right?
[00:13:39] Steve :
Right. The Bible is later on
[00:13:41] Martae Rayless:
first. Church tradition, everything else. Right. So when you talk about That's probably a separate debate. We'll we'll focus on It is. But right now, if you are on a deathbed and you're waiting and you're just gonna gonna get into Constantine, Marcus. You don't get to put bumpers up. If you're using this as a life raft, it's like a it's like a call like, you know how you use a lifeline in, who wants to be a millionaire? If you're using this and say, I always have this. I could just do this.
[00:14:09] Unknown:
I can't say a preconceived bias that he doesn't actually believe it in his heart. I said, if he if he in his heart Well, I can't presume this. Things he did takes Jesus into his heart, becomes a true born again Christian, dies a week later, does he go to the good place? Well, here's here's where I think we're going. Will decide, though. We we can't we don't even know this. He would not say this. If the dude would not assume that he would not
[00:14:39] Unknown:
not. Well, the person that's making this decision,
[00:14:41] Martae Rayless:
he doesn't even know if he's gonna go to heaven. So we can't determine that. We don't know his heart. We don't know how the Oreos can make None none of us do this. Determinative judgment
[00:14:51] Steve :
about every aspect of every life from birth up until death, but the point at which the Orthodox stopped making predetermined judgment
[00:15:02] Martae Rayless:
is What do you mean by predetermined judgments?
[00:15:05] Steve :
What I what I keep getting what I keep hearing from my friends in the orthodox community, which I agree with, by the way, is that we're allowed to judge. And it's always the rebuttal to well, the Bible says judge not unless you no. We're supposed to judge. That's how we make a logical determination
[00:15:27] Martae Rayless:
of your Do you understand your aspect all of that. So you can make all of those judgments up until the point of death, and then at the point of death, you're like, I don't know. We're talking about a translation error. So when people talk about judgments, we could think about this. So if we think about the logos, which is like just logic, if we logically think about these transition translations if you have a circle, like, let's say me, Ben, Alan, and Steve were in a circle. Right? And then there was something from There's four of us. We're in a square. Right. Four of us in a square were coming well, I mean, what if we were like this with our hands? Right? We can make a circle. Right? Listen. Listen, Marte. I've been in prayer circles.
[00:16:05] allen marcus:
I've never been in prayer squares, but I like to try it sometime. I'm open to the idea.
[00:16:10] Martae Rayless:
Hey. I'm gonna keep it with the circle. But like I was saying, what if we were in this this circle and we presented prevented riffraff coming from coming in? Like, let's say this guy touched kids, and not only that, not only was he not repentant, but he said, I'm going to do this again. We were we're how are we bad from not making a judgment from saying you can't come in and infiltrate our circles unless you change your ways or show us a good pattern? I think not only does this logically make sense, but what you're comparing this to is the judgment of saying where we're going in the afterlife, where we're gonna go, where our soul's gonna go. That's a different form of judgment. So if we think about these distinctions, we need to make a distinction in in error. So if you're gonna be on the deathbed and you're gonna say, well, I'm just gonna use this as a lifeline, we can't make that determination. The orthodox can't make this determination. I don't think anybody can. This is like a pathologic
[00:17:00] Unknown:
I I tell you I tell you what, a person lives their life a piece of shit. In a week before they die, they go, I I I love Odin. Odin's gonna fucking wipe his boot with that dude. Like, that's it's never gonna go well.
[00:17:16] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But here's the here's the other side of this. Do you how often do you think the distinction happens where somebody's about to die and they say, well, I just turned my life over to god because now they're in a prison. They threw their whole life away. Do you honestly think that most cases, people are just saying, oh, I got a free pass, get out of jail free card. It doesn't really work like this, man. We're not working to make a determination that only the divine would be able to make, though. Like, that's Have you been to prison? Have you been to for us to make. We don't make that determination at all. None of us make that determination. But you're a spark right now. Change
[00:17:53] Unknown:
right before right when they're getting ready to die.
[00:17:56] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But we are talking about different denominations, people just having their own thoughts and theories. But to me, I denominations.
[00:18:04] Steve :
Like, if I'm a a a shitty orthodox Christian, but I'm a really good Protestant, does then like, how how does that, like I mean, how does that factor in? I'm and I I don't know. I might be asking double quotes. I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm really not. I'm getting practical terms, it means can I be a member of a Baptist church?
[00:18:29] allen marcus:
Can I be a card carrying Lutheran? And can I be a catechumen at the same time? So I have all my major Christian denominations covered just in case one gets me to heaven faster. There's a fast fast enough. We can't do this. Because what you're doing is you're fast track lane? Yeah. We we can't do this. So the problem with this is is, like, let's say I don't know if you're familiar with Calvinism.
[00:18:48] Martae Rayless:
Oh, yeah. Calvinism would mesh well with, any other form of Christianity. Predeterminism. Predeterminism doesn't mesh well. Like, this would the LDS think they're Christians. So it's like, if you're talking about Christian, it's like, remember the movie Civil War? Which American are you? So we could think about this in terms of Christianity. And if you think about Christians, it's like, yeah. This can't this isn't gonna mesh well because the ideology is gonna be different. And I'm like, damn, that by the nature you gotta you guys gotta understand
[00:19:15] Unknown:
when you guys are like, yeah. But there was a schism. By the nature of a schism, that meant that you both came from the same time period, and you just disagreed about some shit. Right? That's gonna happen. You have no more you have no more claim to authenticity through duration than they do. They're they're they're exactly as old as you are by the very part of the schism.
[00:19:36] Martae Rayless:
If we have a unchanging standard and we didn't we didn't go away from this, it's like, if we look at the have an unchanging standard. You had you've had an ever developing standard.
[00:19:46] Unknown:
In the no. No. We haven't. It hasn't changed. We haven't changed church tradition, the community of Absolutely. It has. You may you have different you have different teachers and saints that you each choose, and you're like, yeah. I like this one. Oh, I didn't like this teaching of it. There's absolutely disagreements. There's there's entire books that are nothing but you guys' church higher ups having basically, legally's arguments about things.
[00:20:12] Martae Rayless:
Well, that's because we can have conversation and discourse. Any
[00:20:17] Unknown:
changing.
[00:20:18] Martae Rayless:
But, no, we're not ever changing. If you go to any church, like, I'll give you an example if you let me finish it. Like, your church
[00:20:23] Unknown:
at the true inception where it was considered a government thing. Told you I'm gonna bring Constantine in it, motherfucker. Then You're right. That that that at the inception of your church was called to by the Roman emperor who made that church happen. And there was already massive disagreements during that exact meeting, including where there was enough people that they even excommunicated and kicked them out of the countries, people that didn't come to the agreement
[00:20:55] Martae Rayless:
on the ones that ended. And those ones are exactly as old and as and as valid. Can we do this one point at a time? Because I I I know you're bringing up three different points. At least let me address one at a time. Right? I mean, I would pop back opponents and debates doing this, and that would be easy w for me if I did this. But I'd like to have a little bit more good faith here. So let's bring it back to, like, the churches here in America. If you go to any, I would say any parish, you go to one, you go to another, and it's just gallop.
[00:21:25] Steve :
One one person still Alderson.
[00:21:27] Martae Rayless:
Well, one person that goes to a church, a spiritual father, he he would agree with this church. He would agree with the Greek Orthodox Church. He would agree with this Orthodox Church. It's all the same and it's unchanging. So when I talk about this standard, even today, we could see this. It's an unchanging standard. What you're talking about is something else we can get to later on. But right now, there is no unchanging standard. We could trace this back through apostolic succession, and it goes right on up. That's what I'm referring to.
[00:21:56] Unknown:
They make the exact same claim, and they they are correct because there was a schism, and they come from the exact same time. They were just a disagreement. And there was disagreements even when the church was put together as a church by Constantine. At that time, it was Arian, which is really funny because all the, you know, the Church wasn't put together by Constantine.
[00:22:17] Martae Rayless:
Yes. It was. Put together by the disciples. And so here the who what is the Constantine
[00:22:23] Unknown:
even had to put have a guy threatened to be locked in prison because he wouldn't show up. He forced that on his dime and then show and then and then went to the actual here the actual council himself.
[00:22:37] Martae Rayless:
What is the what is the church do? What what do you when you say the church, what do you mean?
[00:22:42] Unknown:
When the church was made an official thing, before that, Christianity was a bunch of was an ex a a whole bunch of small cults that that practiced it in quite in quite very different ways. And and and the question. It had different books, and that's why that council was called in order to canonize your religion. That was that was forced by Constantine because the Christians amongst their different tribes or cults were fighting so vigorously in his empire that he said, I do not want this anymore. We're gonna canonize this. He forced a a bunch of your deacons or whatever the fuck they're called, to come together in this council, including threatening to jail some of them because they refuse to go.
At the council, they canonized the first couple books, and and I a lot of you guys will disagree about that, but they started the canonization process. Because what is it? Ether? That's, it's a girl's name. That was canonized, at the council of Nicaea. Even though that's not part of the traditional bible, it's considered canonical.
[00:23:54] allen marcus:
This is part of the answer to the question.
[00:23:56] Martae Rayless:
Question, though. You were, like, blowing right past it. Can you answer my question, though? Can you tell me what the what is the church to you? Hold on. Hold on. There's the ATV going by.
[00:24:07] Unknown:
Sorry. I live out in the mountains.
[00:24:10] Martae Rayless:
I hear I hear you. So when I asked you what the church what what what does that definitionally mean to you? What are you referring to when you say the church?
[00:24:19] Unknown:
The thing that the the thing they they it's when there was a canonization of Christian of Christiandom. That's the council of Christendom. Mean, though? What what does that mean? That means that the tribes the different tribes of Christianity with their different various, practices and and whatnot, we're all forced to sit into one into a room and be made into one thing. Now since that one thing, that's why that's why it's called a schism. Because that that from that point until the schism point, there was one church. That's what Constantine wanted.
[00:24:58] Martae Rayless:
But I wanna hear what this is. Like, you're telling me what happened. I need to hear what definitionally what a church is to you. That's what I'm still I'm still not getting his name.
[00:25:07] Unknown:
The church of Christ or whatever it was. Whatever you would call the original entity.
[00:25:13] Martae Rayless:
But when you're saying that is, what is that? What that's what I'm still trying to get at from you. Alan, you understand what I'm saying. Right? Can I just want that? Are you are you
[00:25:24] allen marcus:
asking in in terms of what is the church? Is it a building? Is it a piece of is it a piece of paper? Is it whatever the agreement of of of customs
[00:25:34] Unknown:
and books. It wasn't that at the first council, it wasn't the complete canonization process, but that was the beginning of the canonization process where they started picking which books that they were gonna either take out or keep in, which customs they were gonna take out and keep in until it became one unified thing.
[00:25:56] Martae Rayless:
So then you should And this is specifically what So the church is a process of legalese to you. Is that what you're saying? It's a it's a legalese in process. That's what the church is to you? No. It's the church would be when there was a canonization,
[00:26:10] Unknown:
caught fucking cauterization of disparate cultures because that's the thing that, did not happen in my culture. So the church is So that's that's why it never became a unified force like it like that because it was never cauterized into a into a unified thing. And so each side has its pluses and minuses. The the fact that you have a council in ICIA means that you have Canon books, and so you can say things like, oh, well, the book of Enoch's nonsense. That's why they threw it out. You know, shit like that.
[00:26:46] Martae Rayless:
The the, hoping on this, but I I so the church hold on. We're because we're I'm trying to fill figure out what your definition is. So is the church canonization to you?
[00:26:55] Unknown:
Because I'm really trying to know this point what definitionally a church is to you. It's what the Christian church when it became one unified church, there was a canonization. Before that, there was it was just the spirit tribes.
[00:27:12] Martae Rayless:
So a church is a Not in your a church is a process to you. That's what it this is. It's unified
[00:27:18] Unknown:
it's a unified it's a unified belief system that's bigger than a tribal system.
[00:27:25] Martae Rayless:
So the church is a unified belief system. That's what that is too. That's your definition of what a church is. It it's a unified belief system. Yes.
[00:27:34] Unknown:
Of customs, beliefs.
[00:27:37] Martae Rayless:
So so And it's bigger than a tribe.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
So this You guys are bigger. You guys you guys took over a fairly vast area, and so you were you were trying to incorporate a bunch of very disparate groups into one group. At the at the time of the first council, I believe that, Arian, was the big thing that they were trying to get rid of whether whether,
[00:28:01] Martae Rayless:
That's not what a church is. Alan, I'll even I'll even I'll I'll tell I'll talk to Alan so that way you could see the example I'm gonna refer to. So, Alan, when it says where there are one or two of you gathered, is that not definitionally what a church is to you that from your understanding as well?
[00:28:18] allen marcus:
So from what you just said, it sounds like you're talking about more of a spiritual system, a fellowship, a gathering of the people. I hear Molestman talking about, the unification of a belief system into a formalization of documents. I think that in in many instances of asking the question, what is a church, the complete definition will include that it is all of the history. It is all of the documents. It is all of the pastolic succession. It is all the the beliefs. It is all of the history. That's all under church. I mean, you understand when you say that that you that you understand that you're absolutely then a polygamist
[00:28:55] Unknown:
or not a polygamist.
[00:28:56] Martae Rayless:
Apart from that. Yeah. Sorry. Wrong term. My wrong term. It's another debate, man. It's it's on some other debate.
[00:29:05] Unknown:
Sorry. Sorry. My my bad. Hefatism. No. Hefatism. Hefatism. Hefatism.
[00:29:10] allen marcus:
Polytheist God. That many many gods exist is recognizing many gods. A polytheist recognizing that there are other gods. So in the definition of church,
[00:29:23] Unknown:
what part of what got got done in the in the canonization is that polytheism got taken out of it. You understand that? Right? Satisfied So so if everybody that before canonization, if every one of those tribes was believing Christianity, because you understand in the canonization process, there was give and take between all these different belief systems that all came became into one Christiandom.
[00:29:47] Steve :
That wasn't a monetization.
[00:29:49] Unknown:
And so that that that was that was. Absolutely was. They had votes on things and said, we're gonna we're gonna do this this way. We're we're gonna believe that this way.
[00:30:00] Martae Rayless:
So it the what we did was we wanted to find out because during that time, there was forgeries that happened. There are other things that happened. Right? So you want to figure out, like, how to translate something, what the translation is, what you believe in. I think that when you come together like, let's say you had Odinism come together, and there was this treachery and there was lies. Well, a lie could be a truth to somebody else, and they came together and they had to decide which one was the truth and is a lie can a lie actually be a truth? If somebody came together and stabbed Fenris in the back, they could say, well, no. That could be a truth. How is that not a lie? Two people come together for a council. That's not different belief systems as far as different religions and sects coming together. That's one belief system. They're just figuring out, like, what is the truth? We're talking about semantics here, and that's all that was. There there there is there is That's what I'm referring. Arian controversy, whether Christ is even actually of a of the godhead in any way, shape, or form.
[00:30:55] Unknown:
The the the there's all there was all kinds of different viewing. Like I said, you guys We we agreed to a foundational
[00:31:03] Steve :
doctrine of the church to that was semantics? Because I I thought that that a lot of that is where the foundational doctrine of the church stem forward and what people to this day still uphold as
[00:31:20] allen marcus:
an ultimate truth, but we've reduced that to that was some old people in the desert talking about semantics? Let me let me ask the question directly. Is it called the word of God and do Christians follow the word of God and are what semantics, logic, words, logos, all of this in a book, in a document. So you have the Bible. Is this what you're Oh, that is extremely important. Yes. So bring that up. The Bible wasn't even a thing until the until the councils.
[00:31:48] Martae Rayless:
There was a whole bunch of different stories that were done until The Bible was a thing. We had illiterate people during the time of the apostles. And the reason what we had was word-of-mouth, which was a tradition. This was how things were passed down. And we had so but the problem with your end, when we talk about Odinism, sagas were romanticized. It's been proven. I actually wrote a book called the female warrior fallacy where we go into Celtic origin, that Viking origins as far as, like, the lore and sagas. A lot of this wasn't even really true that happened during the time. So a lot of these sagas were kinda like heartfelt stories to comfort people during times of, I would say times of turmoil, times of stress, things like this. So a lot of sagas weren't even true. We can do a deep dive on this too, but that's the thing, though. If we go back in church history And you read the old testament.
But that's the thing though. If we go back to the old the old testament. Well, the thing that well, we can talk about, the assurance shroud. It almost debunks a lot of other shit. You can I can't even recognize it? Don't even try that. That is fucking laughable, bro. We've got anything to let you know. Just so you know,
[00:32:50] Unknown:
Marcus and I are serious occultists, and we've been and I'm and I'm, like, the biggest conspiracy shows, like, with 100 with fucking, like, Freeman Fly, who had millions of viewers. I've been on their shows. Just so you understand, you're in the deep end of the pool with that one. You really shouldn't take us there. Yeah. Fucking hilarious.
[00:33:12] Unknown:
Yeah. It'll go.
[00:33:14] allen marcus:
The debate of, you know, the, the literature qualities of written tradition from the from the oral tradition to the written tradition writing things down. I think that's a separate debate. Well, let's just kinda table that and move to the next point. Did you have another point that you wanted to address from Balderson,
[00:33:30] Martae Rayless:
Marte? Well, as far as this, I think that we haven't really reconciled, like, the morality thing. Like, where you derive morality from if we talked about this. Like, I haven't gotten that. So as far as, like, you know, we could talk about stabbing people in the back and everything. You've justified this. And I think the amount of justification
[00:33:48] Unknown:
just really
[00:33:50] Martae Rayless:
and it's like, well, there's guys speak to him.
[00:33:53] Unknown:
Does God do nasty things to his enemies?
[00:33:56] Martae Rayless:
What do you is it okay?
[00:33:59] Steve :
Was was every Christian Let him let him finish the man. Let him let him make the point.
[00:34:07] Martae Rayless:
So that's the thing, though. It's like, I I can understand, like, maybe, you know, some people don't do debates, and I I totally get it. I totally get it. It sounds like a really rusty system that I'm really working with right now. I'm usually used to doing formal debates. And I I appreciate you, Alec, for trying to moderate as best as you can. I trust you. We're we're we're trying to reconcile
[00:34:26] allen marcus:
the the free flowing sort of Tuesday night. And also the breading
[00:34:32] Unknown:
how hard it is to pick a fight, my friend. We were happy you came on. Do not take Tuesday night. Enthusiasm as lack of appreciation. Yeah. We are
[00:34:43] Martae Rayless:
rusty. Nobody will fight. Ortho Bros are chicken jets. Well, it's it's not that it's not that nobody won't fight. It's just that when I do get into fights, people aren't really and I'm not doubting anybody's competency level here, but there's a lot of things that happen. Like, you would you'll you would say, well, you gish Gallup. No. You actually gish Gallup when it goes to this. Like, you'll give run on, like, six different points, and I can't remember all six of them, but I'm forced to remember one to address it. Like, that's kind of, like, a tough thing to do, for for instance. Like, usually, the moderator would come in and be like, hold on. Hold on. And I'll say, hold on. Can we stop right there and address this one point? That's typically what would happen. But the reason why I say rusty is, like, I'm allowing this to happen because I'm I'm just I'm kinda more relaxed than I am in usual debates. I'll stop somebody.
So think about how much grace a Christian has on you right now during this whole period. How kind and benevolent of me to be so gracious right now and and just allow you to have the freedom to do what you gotta do. Three Pentecostals
[00:35:42] Steve :
to one Odinist. We're all giving massive amounts of grace here. I I don't know why you would need to carry yours as a banner.
[00:35:54] Martae Rayless:
Well, the reason why I have to point these out is because there's a huge distinction between when I have debates and if I was anybody else and I wasn't this benevolent person that I proclaim myself to be, I wouldn't point it out. I just
[00:36:08] allen marcus:
go ham like I usually do and start checking. It just started stopping like I usually do. But I'm not gonna do that. That's what I'm saying. I would call my this is me calling myself out. This is me, like, that's what I'm doing. Like, you want me to do this. This actually seem like it, but I think there are listeners, and they're very engaged right now. And there's probably a lot of chat, and we've been real Yeah. Ignorant of what is even the conversation we're so focused on on the four of us in our prayer square tonight to figure out, you know, what what is what is a church? What is what is a church? Not to make not to make excuses for my lack of decorum.
[00:36:45] Unknown:
Although in that thing, you are definitely playing coy, pretending like you don't understand what I'm saying because the fact is is before the canonization process, that means that you would have to be a pagan because other people put g ranked Jesus with other things, and they were equally Christian. If you're saying before the canonization process, the tribes that believe vastly different things were all also just Christian. Well, then okay. Well, then you're then you're polytheists.
[00:37:11] Martae Rayless:
Can we can we at least reconcile the the church traditions and unchanged standard that we have? Because we haven't even like, we're literally moving Which is the council in ICU, which is where I'm coming from.
[00:37:23] Unknown:
We're canonization.
[00:37:24] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But hold on, though. Even if there was a canonization that we had, can you tell me how there was a change down through, like, this this this the councils. Right? We had to have councils to put because the Orthodox church did put together the Bible. Can you tell me where this change was after all this?
[00:37:44] Unknown:
Because Every time you had a spizzle, every time you you've changed vast numbers of times. That's why you guys have these really the Orthodox church that's been had. It is of all the of all the Christian denominations has the most, But that's not all. Biggest history of debates when they're trying to figure out how to proceed with a thing. There's changes That's not us, though. Do I know do I know what exact little minute changes you make in your in in your church and in your different, like, you can guarantee that, between then and now, there's different things, like different, customs of, of penance and of, of There isn't.
Things like that that are absolutely different. What you're gonna do is you're gonna telling me that they're still are you telling me they're still taking it and burying people inside of new structures in the wall to consecrate new structures and shit like that? Is that what you're telling me? That you're still doing that
[00:38:46] Martae Rayless:
shit. Can we address one point at a time? So when we go to an unchanging standard, can you point to me where it has changed? And I'm not talking about because what you're doing is you're pointing to other denominations that aren't me. For an example, can you point to mine and say where the
[00:39:03] Unknown:
I'm I'm trying not to hold you to just your thing. I'm just fighting Christianity in general because you said you're not, qualified to fight in your thing, which I get. I get. I'm not, like, trying to make fun of you for that or nothing like that. So I'm just it's not trying to hold you to your to your thing and just talking about Christianity in general and understand that every time since the original since the original, canonization, that every time that there's been a schism, that both parties have equal claim to the heritage.
[00:39:42] Martae Rayless:
So we look at the protestants as the first people that, you know, allow the Catholics as the first protestants because they turned their back. Now while they could say that we turned their back Yeah. They would have an apostolic succession and all that. Right? We looked at an unchanging standard as far as what we believe. I'll the reason why I'm saying we and I'm being really ambiguous is because we all know what I'm talking about. My, my form of Christianity that I'm walking towards. If we look at this as, like, this thing that I'm looking at, where is the change from the apostolic succession all the way down to The Americas right now? Is there any change that you see that you've seen in the last thousand years, five hundred years?
[00:40:27] allen marcus:
Were you both alive for the last thousand years to see these changes with your own eyes?
[00:40:32] Martae Rayless:
I can I can honestly say I wasn't? I wasn't alive. But we have an apostolic session of spiritual fathers who laid hands on other fathers that we could say this, and it's been documented as well too. There there's and there's been no change in tradition.
[00:40:44] Unknown:
There's been no change in structure. Catholics can say the exact same thing
[00:40:49] Martae Rayless:
and do. Right. Correct. They can because it's, like, kinda changing heritage
[00:40:53] Unknown:
goes the exact same duration because there's a schisms, two from one. So two from one means that you you were one thing at one point in time. You became two things at the exact same time. You so at that schism, you both have the the same claim to the heritage
[00:41:10] Martae Rayless:
when their guys are saying, no. You guys are wrong, and you're saying they're wrong. I don't really have to make a statement. I'm not a fucking Christian. That's a loaded statement when you say both of us have the same claim. I can't assume that they have more claim than I do or I they have or they can't even say the same thing about us because that's like a pastoral claim that I can't even make. And that's like the same claim of saying, well, I could be saved as long as I say I love Christ on my deathbed. Like, we don't know this. There's, like, mysteries that we have in our our religion that we don't even know. So, for me to say that would be extreme hubris for me to say that we, like, I have the
[00:41:46] Unknown:
You agree, though, that they have the exact same legitimacy of duration. And and you both became a different thing at the exact same time. Before before there was Catholics and Orthodox, there was one church and that's and then you schismed and became two. You were one thing and now you were two, so you were exactly the same age.
[00:42:09] Martae Rayless:
So I have a question here. We've been on this we we've been on this, kind of this journey for a bit. Right? And although I've enjoyed this, I do have to ask a question. If we had a debate prompt, what would that prompt say?
[00:42:23] Unknown:
The prompt would basically, was supposed to be, mostly, the effects of either Germanic Odinism versus Christianity on society?
[00:42:39] Martae Rayless:
I would say that a lot of what we have is, the cultures downstream of theology from what we have. And you could tell this by how our laws are constructed, what we say in our verbiage, and how we word these laws. When we say under god, which god are we talking about? We're not talking about Odin or any of the other things. So it's like, right now, we see evidence of this. So if you think about the god on the, on I mean, and I'm being very simplistic when I say these things right now because I have to be and and mind you, Alan, and everybody else, I have to be very pragmatic in this. I can't do, like, an exegesis and all that. Once again, I just wanna say that. But when when you think about God in American culture, do they think do wait. If I was to stop anybody in the American street or even you, do you think society means Odin when we say God?
[00:43:25] Unknown:
Not at this point. Most people don't. You understand that that was from the red scare. Right? Do you think that most people who don't it said before the West. Do you think that most people who don't live in the West
[00:43:38] Steve :
think of Judeo Christian God when you say God? Do you think those people in Asia think of the Judea? This is all by virtue of locality Okay. Invading your argument.
[00:43:54] Martae Rayless:
Judeo Christian isn't a thing. It's either Christian or Okay. That. If it's either it's orthodox, Christian, whatever
[00:44:01] Steve :
whatever you want to do. Debate at a time, one point in this debate at a time. In the West, the West is heavily Christian. Yes. But the vast majority of the planet is not. There are more Muslims, and and I'm I'm not happy about this. I'll put that on the fucking record right now. I'm not happy about it, but there are vastly more Muslims. There are more Shinto's in Japan than there are Christian. The first time I left the country, I went to Japan with my Christian missionary grandparents to go to a Christian church and hang out there. Like, that's what but we were the minority because that's not the part of the country where this particular religion dominated.
So what your argument is based on locality. It's not based on numbers.
[00:44:59] Martae Rayless:
So okay. Are you making, what argument are you making? So I would say globally, predominantly, it is Christianity with over three point, two people.
[00:45:09] Unknown:
Of our majority. Islam by a lot of growth. We
[00:45:12] Martae Rayless:
go go look on Google right now. We are the majority,
[00:45:16] Unknown:
worldwide. True. Not even Worldwide. Yes.
[00:45:19] Steve :
No. World. World world. Two and a half billion fucking Muslims. Is it
[00:45:24] Martae Rayless:
you Look globally. I would I would implore one of you guys to look at Google right now. Look at who's the predominant majority as far as, religion.
[00:45:35] allen marcus:
Well and who is the authority on determining what the numbers are correct? We you bought the idea of forgeries and documents and arguing over these things. We don't know. Well, this isn't an argument of They're saying there's 2,300,000,000
[00:45:47] Unknown:
Christians now and 2,000,000,000 in in, 2,000,000,000 Muslims is what they're saying. Holy fuck. The areas that they're claiming are entirely Christian. That's wild. That's wild. They're like they're they're, like, taking large portions of Africa.
[00:46:06] Unknown:
I have way too many friends in the military
[00:46:09] Steve :
that would That's my various. I have way too many friends that are currently
[00:46:14] Unknown:
working with fucking AfriCOM. Well, that's an appeal to them in a way like that. Like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like
[00:46:23] Martae Rayless:
like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like If you were to say, hey. I have friends that say this. Well, that doesn't really prove anything when I've given you something that's more like
[00:46:38] Unknown:
how was mine not more objective when they made are that's a barn wall thing, bro. It's just a barn wall thing for us. Let's return to the prompt again. So Bolton stated what he thought the prompt was. Marty, what is your understanding? Yeah. I'm just galloping. You know what, Marte? We we had a we had we had Andrew Wilson agreed to fight with, with us, like, with, like, a and do this, like, a year and a fucking half ago or some shit. Yeah. And and kept and then kept blowing it off and then made this weird big old to do about it and and blew it off and was like, oh, it's because, it's because you're an old buddy Bob Punt and acted like a dumb shit. And Jay Dyer who who is friends with Steve and goes on Steve's show all the time, he chicken shit out. And and and and yeah. And he chicken shit it out and fucking then made, like, this weird blow up with Steve, about some dumb meme. It was fucking hilarious.
And And it was agreed, and I actually have a personal history with Jim Bob. And,
[00:47:45] Martae Rayless:
the this as a person who did accept this.
[00:47:49] Unknown:
Here's the We appreciate that. Thank you. Here's the thing here's the thing that I'm not I'm not excusing myself, but I'm explaining. I'm a little excitable, and I'm rusty.
[00:47:58] Unknown:
This is I'm excited. I apologize.
[00:48:00] Martae Rayless:
Yep. Well, here's the are curious. Yes. But let me say this, though. I will say this. Like, if Andrew Wilson is a monster, he's like a literal nuke. He's one of my best friends. If he came here and stomped, if if Jay Dyer came here and stomped, I'm just a catechumen. And if there's no headway headway being made on your side, and I'm basically proving stats like saying there's more Christians, there's no morality argument that Everything that you've done, your morality systems blow. Yeah. If I yeah. But that's preference, though. All you're giving me is preference. When I ask you if there's thievery and lying on your end between gods, how do you reconcile this? You haven't been able to reconcile this. Your reconciliation was saying, well, they're more human. And I'm like, well, that then Oh, that was me. The way men didn't What are yours? That. And I'm just a tad people. But guess what? Our people, if you keep doing it, we pay penalties.
[00:48:56] Unknown:
If your people keep doing it and then go, I'm on team Jesus now and believe it in my heart. Whoop. You're going to the good place. And this is account unaccountability. The person that doesn't I actually conceded that. Pay for their mistakes.
[00:49:10] Martae Rayless:
So I conceded that and said, we don't even know. So if I say we don't know, you're beholden to your own budget. Really the debate right there.
[00:49:17] Unknown:
And when I say that's the debate right there. When I say that that leads to lack of accountability because you don't have to account for yourself. I do.
[00:49:28] Martae Rayless:
No. So here's the thing, though. It doesn't lead to it doesn't that's not the debate. And I told you this. I can concede and say that we don't even know that you'll be saved. Nobody knows. How is that I I don't know if you say I'm not, then I earned what I got. But that makes my argument. If I say we don't even know, tell me if the cost is high and we don't even know, it's like there's more to be What's the key to going to to go into heaven?
[00:49:53] Unknown:
What is the key to going to heaven? One thing.
[00:49:57] Martae Rayless:
Redemption. Salvation.
[00:49:59] Unknown:
This is just find that? How do you find that? Not by through works, by one thing. What is it?
[00:50:06] Martae Rayless:
Through Christ.
[00:50:07] Unknown:
There you go.
[00:50:09] Martae Rayless:
I have to do it through work. That's it. But that's not even the argument. That's not the debate.
[00:50:15] Unknown:
It is. Why do you think our society is this unaccountable society?
[00:50:19] Martae Rayless:
But do you understand do you understand that for somebody to seek salvation, we the this is the point. I'm gonna reemphasize this. We don't even know. Like, let's say I was the most saved person on earth, and I did everything correctly. Nobody else, even I wouldn't know if I'm going to heaven or not. You realize that? That's the argument I'm making. We don't even know. But you're making an assertion of saying, we do know. All we gotta do is do this and we're it's guaranteed. I'm saying it's not guaranteed.
[00:50:47] Steve :
That's what I'm saying. Are you are you saying there isn't a a pre prescribed list of behaviors? Nay, commandments that you have to adhere to that if you don't adhere to them, unless you show significant repentance and you do the proper penance, you're like the the this is what this is I'm I'm kinda middle manning this shit, dude. I really am. I'm definitely not an an. I am definitely not an Orthodox Christian. I am, an observational comic at this point. I see. Fucking, you know, the the has a couple of brain cells to rub together and grew up in a very specific religious tradition that, you know, I have a a fundamental working knowledge of. What we're talking about though, broadly speaking, is the defensibility of, okay, you can do whatever the fuck you want up into a point and then go,
[00:51:58] Unknown:
yeah. No. We don't believe that's what we believe. To be for
[00:52:03] Steve :
the religion, not for the individual. As an individual, you may disagree and I would uphold your right to disagree, but broadly speaking, textually, it seems to be the case that you can lead a life of rampant sin, find a little bit of faith along the way, and that's your golden ticket. You can shake your head no. But where does it work? That's not the case. Doesn't work like that. When you say you could win however you want to Describe how it doesn't work like that and give me textual background for where it doesn't work like that.
[00:52:43] Martae Rayless:
I can give you a very pragmatic, simple solution. And not only this will enhance doctor in that backs that up. So I don't even need doc I can I can have a logical entailment to back this up? Let's say that you're a child and I'm a parent and I tell you We're not talking about that. That's a totally different thing. Let's talk about my thing. Let's do that, please. And And then we'll talk about to this. This can be relational. If I give you hypothetical, can you at least hear this out in in a pair? To this. I'm gonna give you hypothetical.
If you're a child and I'm a parent and I tell you these are the rules of the house, Let's say that I tell you these rules, but as a matter of fact, let me rewind this. Let's say you're a child and I don't give you any rules. The parent's not available. You don't know what to do. You're just running on your own. Right? Are you at fault for anything? Do you know what you're doing is wrong? You probably wouldn't know. Right? Let's say one day I put the hammer down and said, these are the rules. There's 10 rules that you're gonna have. Right? This is really relational to what I'm talking about. And as a parent, I say, hey. Listen. If you do this, this you're gonna be grounded for a week. If you do that, that's what's gonna happen. These are the punishments that are gonna happen. Your life is gonna be miserable. Maybe I'm not gonna punish you, but you're gonna be punished with tummy aches if you eat all the sweets out of the fridge. And here's the thing, though. Before this, you didn't even know, like, what we're gonna do because you're just living in rampant.
I I say objective following your passions. Right? You're just doing saying is you failed
[00:54:08] Steve :
as a parent up until that day. No. No. You never met a single obligation That's the point. As a significant force in that child's life No. That's the point. That you decided
[00:54:18] Martae Rayless:
to lay the hammer down. That's what you're telling me. No. What I'm saying though is if a person doesn't know and then one day they know because this is your point that you're making.
[00:54:28] Steve :
One day using the example of a child. So if you're using the example of a child, you would have to by your religion, you would have to default to the parents as the arbiters of right and wrong for that situation. So you actually think a good parent or parents in general could never Parents in general. Describe any any sort of moral behaviors, right and wrong to their kid. But at the moment that somebody else who isn't the parent does that, then they should they should The parent is from all fucking doctors and go ahead and listen to a perfect stranger because all theologies is responsible.
[00:55:07] Martae Rayless:
If you have a nuclear family, you're going to have a mother and father. This also represents the church in a marriage. Right? Would you say this? So if the child knows after this day, these are the rules, he can't He he's been held to account for all this because you know better. It's actually worse for you. If you don't recognize
[00:55:24] Steve :
responsible for the child up to that point. Was it not the parents?
[00:55:30] Martae Rayless:
Of course, it's the parent. If it's parent, I'm not talking about god. I'm talking about actual parents. But, you know, then we're talking about a couple of, jumbled fucking things because you admit it's already been made in the case Yeah. How is the hypothetic of the parents and the children relational to the point that Marty is making? I tried to get to this, but I was interrupting several times. I I know. I know. I know. Figure it out, man. Yep. Yep. Right. But you have to let me finish, though. I I'll land my plane really quick here. So here's the thing, though. Like, I'm a Christian. Let's say I was just out there in the world just doing whatever. Right?
And I I, one day, find out that Christ is the way, and I find out, oh, gosh. I can't be doing this, and I can't be do and I know better. Right? As the child knows better, you know what not to do now. You are reinforced with structure, boundaries, and you have discipline now that you can adhere to. You know the results of not following rules. Your parents are gonna discipline you. This is gonna happen. If I don't follow this, now I can't say, well, I live live the life and I can do whatever I want. That that's your argument. You're saying, well, we could do whatever we want as long as we pray and repent. No. It doesn't work like this. Just like this child, as soon as you find out that Christ is away, this is the way through salvation,
[00:56:44] Unknown:
this is a thing to do whatever you want
[00:56:46] allen marcus:
for. As as a as a catechum, have you gotten to the point where you discover if orthodoxy, is it evangelical? Is it missionary focus? Is it focused on the culture outside of itself, or is orthodoxy a private club behind closed doors in a church building? Meaning Give me one minute. As as a student in in the the studies of Orthodox Christianity, is it your responsibility to be responsible for your soul and your soul alone? Or at some point, when you become a member, when you've been baptized, you've gone through the catechism and you're accepted as a full member of the Orthodox Church, does it then become your responsibility for the souls around you and your immediate family and then the schools and the immediate neighborhood?
Locality. We talked about locality. Are you directly influencing your local community whether or not they are also Orthodox Christian?
[00:57:48] Martae Rayless:
We are, and I'll tell you how. So it's twofold. This night cuts both ways. So I am personally responsible for the salvation of my own soul. I can't put this responsibility in anybody else. To you, it should make sense. Right? Now the second part that where you're talking to that I'm gonna about that I'm gonna address. Let's say that we're in the middle of a debate, and I have somebody that believes in hedonism. Right? Steve believes that I should be able to bang whoever I want. I'm gonna Hedonism with a d or hedonism with a t h? D with a d. Heathenism.
Okay. He's a heathenist, and he goes to islands, and he bangs all these women. And he believes that he should be able to do this because by freedom of choice, free will. Right? And I'm talking to him easier life than I ever wanna lead, but yes. And I debunk this. I tell him, you complain about hose while while creating problems of hose at the same time. How can you then ask for a solution when you're creating a problem? And then somehow, I destroy this logically in his mind. He no longer believes this, and I create a void. When I create this void, what can then fill this void? So for me, that's how I can do this. So we are in we do play a part in bringing people to the faith, but it's not like evangelism.
[00:59:00] Steve :
That's what you're saying. It's through creating voids. Ecumenical spackle.
[00:59:05] Martae Rayless:
You just feel ecumenical spackle because I can use I can use I would say, atheist not an atheist argument. Your analogy. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to run with it. Oh, but here's the thing, though. I can then use other arguments that aren't Christian to destroy your worldview, which is like by the way, Christian is like, if we talk about God, the logos so I can use a secular argument to destroy yours because without Christ, everything inverts and crumbles by itself. If I use a secular argument to destroy yours and show you why it's logically wrong in a fallacy, that creates a void. And then what can create this void? Possibly Christ.
You know? So that's I look at it like this. So I don't go there to evangelize, to sell you, knock on the door like a Jehovah's Witness and say, have you found Christ today? That's not what I wanna do because through my experience, you put up walls. When you tell people, you need a you need to go to Christ. You need to do this. And I'm like, that's really that you're actually pushing people away when we do this more often than not. But if I talk to you in the New Testament, the great commission says that the church's mission is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living pre creature so that everybody
[01:00:12] allen marcus:
on Earth has heard the gospel message. Are you, as a catechumen, moving towards a full membership, is that going to be your creed and your purpose in life? You ask about purpose later. What is the purpose of you becoming a full blown member of the Orthodox Church, and is it to fulfill the great commission?
[01:00:33] Martae Rayless:
So for me becoming a body of the church and me going into the Orthodox faith and becoming one of the body, You're talking about my life being on display. And by mind you, I'm a public figure. I'm a pro athlete, all this other stuff we could talk about. My life is a demonstration to bring other people to the faith. Matter of fact, I'm talking about your gay stuff?
[01:00:52] Unknown:
Well, no. We're not talking about that stuff. With the other dudes flexing and shit? Just fucking with you, dude. I'm just fucking with you, bro. Well, here's the thing, though. Not great. Yeah. I talk. I can't.
[01:01:04] Martae Rayless:
Right. What but but Benjamin, I'm gonna use that for an example. Let's say that I had some accusations brought up against me, and all this is false and fallacious, by the way, and I never attacked the people that attacked me. So for for me to never attack my persecutors in a slingback of personal attacks and accusations, for me, that's a vandalizing to some degree by saying Oh my god. Enemy. He never attacked somebody. He didn't do this. He's showing me a better way to do this. While they're attacking me, they're actually looking worse. For for me to do this by example, I'm doing this. I don't have to go say, hey, convert to Christ and do all this. They already know I'm a Christian. They know I'm not attacking somebody and they're seeing a better example. We already know we have few examples of this. So by by proxy, I'm doing this already. So I see the commission being done already by that.
[01:01:53] Unknown:
Yeah. I, I got nothing to do with that. The one I did catch, believe me, bro. I wouldn't jump in on that bullshit. Fucking, the the one I did catch this is actually funny enough why Jim Bob and I have history because we were both friends with Owen Benjamin. Oh, man. This is ugly. This is Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the thing is is I didn't know who Owen Benjamin was, bro. I I I literally live off grid. I've never seen his movies or his shows. I had no idea who the dude was. And Yeah. He saw he saw a video of me because I raise I raise cattle and alpacas and, I had, you know, birds and shit like that.
And obviously too many cats. But, he saw a video of me hand sharing alpaca, and he asked a mutual friend of ours because I go on, like, other bigger, shows. I'm I'm a bigger speaker in, like, the alternative world room. And so I go on the bigger stoves and talk, and he heard me talking, and he saw videos of me doing this, and he wanted to talk to me about homesteading. So that was my introduction to Owen Benjamin. It was him and I talking about farm stuff, literally texting back and forth, not even on social media. Can confirm this
[01:03:06] Steve :
having hung out in the house for a number of those conversations.
[01:03:11] Unknown:
Steve and I are people fucking farm shit. Yeah. So I didn't know any I didn't know anything else about the dude or anything. And then so then he starts getting really crazy, and he went through he goes through these cycles where he goes nuts and starts just attacking people wildly like he is right now with Andrew, which I I don't like Andrew Wilson particularly. I think he's a sissy, but, I would never do the things that Owen's doing like attacking his wife. I I understand Rachel's a bit of a public figure, so some people would use that as an excuse, except for Owen's done this to every single person's point figure for mine.
And and so he there was a couple younger guys. The bear community is very cultish. And there was a a schism in their thing. And, Owen started attacking a bunch of these younger guys. And the thing is is some of his more ardent supporters will do things like call CPS and do things that are real. You know the type. And and Owen was you know, he would go and he was saying things like calling them PDF files. And and, like so one person that I was friends with, he said that they had p he they had, like, dirty pictures with the kids on the Internet, and then he switched it to, oh, they were in diapers.
And then it switched to, you know, and they were they were suggestive, and then it turned into something else. And what the picture actually was was them at a a sports bar. Everybody's fully dressed. And he's like, yeah. But there was alcohol in the background. And it was it was really gross, and he kept attacking these dudes. He was also attacking Jim Bob and attacking, Woodshop Bear. And he was saying the same thing about all three of them and calling them meth heads and all this other nonsense. And so I made a video because I was friends with Owen. And I and I called him out, and I was like, what the fuck kind of man talks about people's families and their kids and tries to get people to and gets people riled up so they're calling social services and shit. I was like, what the fuck's wrong with you, you Hollywood punk?
And so that's where Owen and I split and quit being friends. And that's why that's why Jim Bob and I have a history because I don't put up with that kind of shit. It's like that's, you know, that's not the kind of stuff men do. Right. I hear
[01:05:30] Steve :
you.
[01:05:31] Martae Rayless:
So this is this is what I'll say. As far as him being a sissy, I don't have any evidence of that. I think that he's a good man.
[01:05:38] Unknown:
I will all of Char has the evidence of that. You guys you guys you are I'm a You are a
[01:05:46] Steve :
some personal evidence to that. I'll say this though. Know a bunch of successful comedians
[01:05:52] Martae Rayless:
and sorry. I don't Sure. I I hear what you're saying, but this is what I'll say. I'll say this though. I will die for that man because he's my brother. Not only this, and I'm not just saying this because he's Andrew Wilson. This he he like, let's say he never had status. He's my brother, and I die defending his life no matter what. And this isn't me, like, coming at you guys or anything like that. But as far as him being a sissy or all the other stuff, I'm like, well, no. I haven't seen evidence of this, and I don't wanna see any evidence of that because when it comes to this, this is like you guys' stuff. I'm out of this. And the Owen Benjamin stuff, like, that's also not my battle unless they attack him directly. And if they're gonna attack his family, they're attacking me because I look at him as a brother. So, I mean, just like you, Ben, if you somebody attacks your best friend and not your brother, you defend them too. Right? Oh, yeah. I think that we have an unwritten rule amongst men that we should always back our our boys play no matter what. You know? And it's like, we hold each other accountable by the responsibility we have to, like, the morals we have. Right? And not to mention this, but it here I don't know if you agree, man. I'm gonna say your boys play publicly,
[01:06:56] Steve :
but you address that shit privately. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Nobody is talking to Andrew Wilson privately in a manner in which he would be able to learn and grow. Andrew Wilson has been in the exact same fucking place for the entire six years that I've been acquainted with him. He's not grown a shred.
[01:07:27] Unknown:
In fact, he's been He's been acquainted with him. Wouldn't be opposed
[01:07:31] Steve :
to even pretending to hear what anyone else says because he is rigid and righteous in where he stands. And that's where a lot of people rally around him. I'm not I'm not even look. All I'm doing is all
[01:07:49] Unknown:
I'm doing is describing the landscape.
[01:07:52] Steve :
I am not casting at you. I'm not fucking casting stones. I'm just describing the landscape.
[01:08:00] Martae Rayless:
Okay? Well, when when you say he hasn't changed, what are you talking about? We're referring to, like, no change. Well, we've got
[01:08:06] Steve :
thousands of hours of him putting forth the exact same positions. This is what is very, very admirable to me about the Orthodox community. Very rigid and very foundational in the rhetoric. The rhetoric has existed for two thousand years. The rhetoric is unchanging. The rhetoric is constant. That makes the Orthodox community very efficient in the way that they communicate. That is admirable to me. I find that to be a very fucking attractive quality. I do. What where the rubber meets the road, there is no we're going to put this into practice. The practice is from what I've observed, I've got mine.
Fuck you, peasant. And that
[01:09:11] Martae Rayless:
that Where are you seeing this human example?
[01:09:14] Steve :
Mentality. Push back in a second. Let me finish. The pervasive mentality for at least the online orthodox community is I did this thing. Yes. My dad helped me. Yes. My grandfather helped me. Yes. My mother in law's father helped me. Yes. You know, all of these people have but I did it all on my own, and fuck you. No. My property's not in my name. It's in my mom's name. No. My property's not in my name. It's in my fucking grandfather's name. But I did it all on my own. And that seems
[01:09:51] Martae Rayless:
it just Jewish people can say this. Muslims people could say this. That's not exclusive mutually exclusive to orthodox or anybody else. That doesn't really, No. No. No. No. No. But what we're talking about, what we're it's okay to fucking shift away from it. But what we're talking about right now
[01:10:08] Steve :
is the Orthodox community. So Yeah. But what you're saying is the our community, though. Or you're a part of, that would be beneficial.
[01:10:17] Martae Rayless:
So I haven't yet heard what where the rubber meets the road. You gave, like, a broad generalization that applies to every culture, every person, or comply to anybody. This is a I gave you specific examples within the orthodox community, but that's, I guess, neither here nor here. Specific. It's it's general. The Yeah. Example is the example here, Steve. I'll give you a gen a a specific example.
[01:10:40] Unknown:
If your forearm is basically the same size as your wrist and looks doughy, would you call that a
[01:10:47] Martae Rayless:
sissy? I mean, if you're gonna make a make assertions, like, that would be anybody. Hey, bodybuilder.
[01:10:53] Unknown:
Tell me you wouldn't call him a sissy
[01:10:55] Martae Rayless:
bodybuilder, man. You don't lie to me like that. I mean, there's nobody on camera, so you can be frank. But here's the thing. Here's the problem. You're talking about a firearm instructor. Does he really need forearm muscles? Like, it's like so it's like, man, you can't
[01:11:12] Unknown:
open up a one chat.
[01:11:16] allen marcus:
Alright, guys. Thank you for your input. Let's How you even supposed to get a morning blow job if you can't open up the pickle jar? We've we've explored we've explored specific instances of public figures. I don't need to repeat their names during the transcript. We're on the tape, play it back. Public figures in the Orthodox community, public figures just online in the debate community. I know that Marty has a long story of his his faith and his testimony and his being in a in the public figure and having some things on the permanent record that maybe that that that that time arguing with the orthos? Well, each individual man stands for themselves. They represent themselves. Other people other people are not here to defend themselves or the size of their arm or how many bench presses I can do or who can win a thumbprint. That's fair. Thank you. So within the within within this prayer square, the four of us here, individually speaking on our own behalf for our own experiences, we can now talk about, you know, public figures and manhood and prayer
[01:12:20] Unknown:
request again. And red
[01:12:22] allen marcus:
the red the red pill. Right? So we have this idea of what is a man. There's idea of a biblical Christian marriage, how to treat women, this type of thing. And it might be that this is another debate for another time, but while we have you here, you have some experience in the so called red pill community, men dating advice and this type of thing. You did mention orthodox, bros, and then you also mentioned the passport bros, the idea that men travel to other countries and it's sort of,
[01:12:52] Martae Rayless:
sex tourism. Women also do the same thing. They post their pictures on Instagram, and they love to travel. It's not as prevalent with women, though. It's it's really bad with women because if you have a woman who's westernized and she goes back to Europe or somewhere else where people are more traditional, they're not putting up with this. But here's the problem with the ortho with, not ortho or whatever, but I'm talking about Ortho Bros. Alpha Bros. I don't I'm not bought into it, and here's why. It's gonna make really good sense to you. So if you go outside The United States because you wanna find somebody traditional and you bring her back, what's going to propagandize her again? American culture. That's the problem you're gonna run into. So you need something that's firm, fair, and consistent. That's why religion's a good thing to turn to. Christ, like, they like, even he even Benjamin has something better than what we have westernized compared to fem feminism is the biggest shit test that we have in America going on right now, and everybody in on this panel knows that. So when we talk about the going out of The States and bringing somebody back, you don't think they're gonna be brainwashed with this westernized culture of you go girl and snapping their fingers and doing this. That's what's gonna happen. So it's like the problem is is that these people wanna go outside The United States and get a wife, but when they bring her back, they can't avoid American culture. They have to be the man that this woman admires, looks up to, and is traditional and conservative or preserving some kind of values that she admires in a man. To me, I think that's extremely important.
[01:14:17] Steve :
Is manhood inherently conservative? But it seems like we've shifted Yeah. The the conversation very far away from where we were. But, yeah, I totally agree with that. I interrupted you. Has a a very good,
[01:14:32] allen marcus:
you know We have a super chat to address.
[01:14:34] Steve :
Can I address a very good story about this? But, like, I at the same time, you I I get it. I get it. I'd I fucking I swore off white bitches a long time ago because white bitches are fucking nonsense as far as that goes. And I don't know Thank you, Brent. How to fucking I'm pushing back against that. I don't know how to fucking deal with it. I don't, dude. I don't. They're the best and the worst.
[01:15:04] Unknown:
Yeah. Dude,
[01:15:06] Unknown:
dude. They're Thank you, Bronco. Holy shit. Bad. A $100 super chat. Thanks, guys. Took me a while. Better late than never. I tell you what. This has been a wild conversation. Absolutely worth rewriting, brother.
[01:15:21] Steve :
We appreciate you, Bronco. Thank you very, very much. Wow. Go ahead and give yourself a a pat on the back. And if you're so inclined, go ahead and tap your bottom a little bit because that's a good game, buddy. Yeah. A little spam bar being a little bit. We will make a
[01:15:39] Unknown:
special little, clip video to play for you next week that we did not have ready, not expecting that. Wow. Thank you very much, brother. And, yeah, Steve Steve, he gets he was much more liberal when, I I first met Steve. Not not not entirely liberal. He's definitely wasn't a libtard. Steve's always been middle ground, but he was more more rock anarchist after, you know, after, he got free of the, the liberal, what we're in California. You know? It's it's it's even the least liberal girl in California is still a raging libtard for the most part.
[01:16:24] Steve :
Unless they came here illegally from Mexico, and then they're talking bad ass. Yeah. Why is that?
[01:16:31] Martae Rayless:
Go ahead and get you one of those. We're we're picking on we're picking on white women. There's no white women here. I mean, I'm not gonna have for a reason. White women. I'm going to defend white women. I'm going to protect and defend my white women. And when I say mine, I'm talking about the selection bias that I have because I'm not going with Shaniqua. That's a bad option. You guys can have Shaniqua. There is no shit. What what I will say American Negro, bro.
[01:16:54] Unknown:
What I will say, and this is part of where I do have critiques, because it seems like the ortho bro movement seems to be a lot of, gamer boy in cells. And the thing is is if you you should be out in the field working, not just, you know, oh, I went I went camping once a month or something. I live out in the fucking forest and throw bales and push bulls and cows around. Like, get out of here. That's why I don't have to go to a gym. Like, I that you can't give you can't feed somebody from a field that you're not that you're not in and that you haven't grown in. And the thing about it is Like, three different argument you said right now. I I would agree that the white women like, my wife cried when now she had other events going on, personal ones, but she cried the first time Trump got elected. Like, she was very liberal. My nephew died that day.
And I wasn't gonna share that, but, and but she she thought the world was ending. Ow, you little sucker. The world was ending because of Trump. And, now she's much more level headed about things, but you have to be a very strong man in order to bring that out in women. They women are very much like cats. Like, if you've ever watched, like, wild cats breed, the the thing that cat puts out the scent and then and then the male and she attracts the male. And then when the male bites bites the hook, she immediately fights him. And he's gotta be strong enough to to lead to to be dominant enough to pass on those genes or else she don't even want them. And so you've got a bunch of super weak fish ass men, and of course the women aren't gonna change for that. And so you've gotta put at least half that accountability on the men that these men are so fucking weak.
You know? Like and and especially, like, with the things like, oh, well, let's build a house and a home together. No. As a man, you own the home, and then you bring her into it, and she brings the the heart into the home. You have to have the home to bring her too. You know what? These guys don't wanna go out and become men and then go get the you little shit. I got this cat just attacking the hell out of me.
[01:19:16] Steve :
Well, there's a bigger problem,
[01:19:18] Martae Rayless:
but I'll let you I'll let you land your plane. Go ahead.
[01:19:21] Unknown:
And if you guys don't have that, the the leaders in that community, Jay Dyer is is about as fairy as they get, and I know his history, and it's ugly. There's no moral civil and marital history. And and that most of the guys are in sales. This is probably not here to defend himself, so I can't really we can't really invited. He was invited, and he can come anytime he wants. If he wants to come Yeah. But if he's invited, I wouldn't I can't know. He's still not here, though. So I would say that. It's part of the part of the point of time. Except for he except for he bitched out. Otherwise, I never said a word. And it it was actually quite a while after, and it was a it was a year in something before I before I decided I was done with Andrew's shit.
[01:20:06] Martae Rayless:
Well, as far as somebody who had the balls, guts, and courage to show up, I'm not going to You are you are him. Here. I'm just saying he's him, sir. If I have the balls and guts and courage to show up, I'm also going to acknowledge that if he can't show up and he's not defending himself, let's say I wouldn't even show up and defend myself. I don't wanna be talked about in rooms that I I can't defend myself because I like to show up. But here's the thing though. We can't get anything solved if we're gonna talk about people who aren't here because I can't defend people because I don't know their mind, what they're thinking, what they're doing, the scandals between you and them. But I will say this though. One of the things that does need to be fixed is reproduction rights for men. If we could fix this and we could fix the courts and fix the laws so that way marriage is more fair and not weaponized against men, I believe that we bought into a system that's screwing men. Matter of fact, this whole transformer thing that we're having is banning guns. I think that's not gonna be a solution. Here's how you have the solution. If we can give custody rights back to men, if we can insane, though, bro. How like, how do you get a bunch of second amendment
[01:21:10] Unknown:
amendment to go against gun rights? You're like, you guys But you know you can't do that. Right? You can't go against anybody.
[01:21:18] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But here's the thing. We solve that problem by giving custody equal rights to men. If we can do this, you're not going to have boys raised not knowing which sex they are. We eliminate this if we can keep the father in the home, change laws and do this. That's one way to do this to where we don't have to take gun rights away from anybody. By the way, I I believe that we should have mental health checks. Like, you should be able to pass it. If you have a psych issue in your past, you're taking psych meds, you shouldn't have a gun. I do believe in that. I believe that you should like, we we shouldn't have people who have issues and mental health issues with weapons charges, things like this. They shouldn't have a gun. So I do believe that we should have some restrictions, but that's I just gave you, something that's gonna fix it. The solution is by preserving nuclear families, giving fathers custody rights, and making things more balanced so it's not weaponized against system. This solves that problem. It completely
[01:22:11] Unknown:
I don't disagree, and I would add in to take away no fault divorces.
[01:22:16] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. That that needs to be a dead thing. I I I wakes up and you breathe wrong, she should not be able to dead everything. I'm I'm totally against no fault divorces.
[01:22:25] Unknown:
Right? Women go through shit. And and and they will do rash things when they go through shit. They get very rash. And then, you know, all the years that, oh, you weren't supposed to talk about when a women woman's on her period, how very much that they act one way during the time that they're on their period or usually it's right before it and then a little bit into it and then it tapers off. And you're not supposed to talk about that. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. It's just it's just fucking
[01:22:53] Martae Rayless:
making making out facts. Well, you've seen it congruence. There's an incongruence that happens. If you think about this about women, and it's very insulting. Matter of fact, I had a woman tell me I'm insulting her when I say this, when I talk about facts. So women, are they the same on their menstrual cycle as they are the rest of the month? You'll say mostly they're changed. Right? Are they the same when they're pregnant? Their moods and everything, probably different. Right? Well, what about menopause? Oh, shit. There's, like, three different occurrences that they have in their life where they're up and down. Women I don't know if you know this, but women initiate wars whenever they're in leadership roles 28% more than men do. This is very concerning. So this is a fact you guys can also look up too. So I think that men have to be the rock. That's an unchanging standard, not to, like, yeah, like, talk about our previous conversation, but we have to be an unchanging standard in our home. And the superpower that men are lacking is the ability to say no. If you can't say no, we are creating simps by nature.
[01:23:50] Unknown:
But you need to be strong enough to get them to submit to you. Why would you submit to a weak man? Why would you wanna submit to a weak man? You understand you understand the position that they're putting themselves in. My wife, I live I'm a heathen. We live like this. That that's my wife also put herself into that position. She was she's a she doesn't make any money. Well, she has her creams and stuff that she makes at, you know, on the side or whatever. But you know what I'm saying. Like, she's a she makes all the food from scratch. We have a giant garden. She's been spending the last fucking week making making spaghetti sauce because we're gonna we'll have enough spaghetti and pizza sauce for the whole fucking year and then some. And and other things, peppers, you know, processing all that. My that's what my wife does.
And so but she doesn't go out and do take care of the cows. She doesn't go out and throw the hay. She doesn't shovel the shit. She doesn't fix the trucks. She doesn't get the water system going. She doesn't keep the electricity on. She doesn't do any of the man things. And if you're not acting like a man, somebody that she can feel comfortable with submitting to and making herself where she's unsafe and relying on you for her safety. Safe. Yeah. Yes. So well, before that, she had up a shield, and she's only gonna let down that shield in in your home if you give her reason too. You need to be a strong enough man to where she feels like she doesn't need to be the man anymore.
[01:25:24] Martae Rayless:
She can be the the loving wife who doesn't have a manly who isn't have a manly side because she doesn't need it. Yeah. But here's the problem, though. This creates another construct that we also need to avoid in what we should stir away from too. I just wanna bring this up to where if a woman tells you that you need to to make her feel safe and you need to be a certain man in order for her to be feminine, all she's doing is telling you that she has conditional femininity. I would warn you guys to say that any woman that says, I'm not gonna be feminine until the right man think about this. If I, as a guy, say that I'm wearing high heels on Saturday, and I'm not gonna be masculine until the right woman shows up. It sounds really stupid. Right? Well, women have this rhetoric, and they'll say, well, I can't be feminine, and I can't be traditional unless you well, this actually makes her the leader. Are you gonna support and provide for and
[01:26:14] Unknown:
have live in your home anybody but the right woman?
[01:26:18] Martae Rayless:
Well, it goes both ways. This knife has to cut both ways.
[01:26:22] Unknown:
Has to cut both ways. It does. Unless you have unless you're the dude that can bribe provide for her. Yeah. Bring her all in. Your home and make only her one single. Love, why should she be feminine for you? Which the same applies to what you're doing for her. If you move a if you move a rod into your home that's not gonna be your wife, you're a fucking idiot. But do you understand how reductive this is when I only hold one side to account?
[01:26:49] Unknown:
We have to hold both sides to account. I can't say I hate that the way you say it.
[01:26:55] Martae Rayless:
I I can't say I'm the only one that has to hold the standard. I want somebody who's traditional just like I'm traditional. We both have to be accountable no matter what. What he's saying. No. Hold on. He's not bringing up her portion. He's not bringing up how she has to be a good mother. She has to have all these none of that was brought up. I well, I'm just like, she's pulling some Hang on. Hang on.
[01:27:19] Steve :
From his religious perspective, it is implied. It demonstrates ignorance on your part to not understand what
[01:27:30] Unknown:
the the I understand what you're saying. Germanic.
[01:27:33] Unknown:
Where it's Right. How am I supposed to know this? This? You were showing up to talk to a dude.
[01:27:40] Steve :
That's his foundational Right. But how how am I supposed to know this entailment unless you explain Oh, you knew the Ortho Bro talking points to rebut it, but you didn't try to understand it.
[01:27:51] Martae Rayless:
Well, if he's bringing up surface talking points like I am, how am I any wrong than you guys? I did explain my relationship, brother. Yeah. I did explain my relationship that I have a very traditional
[01:28:02] Unknown:
wife. I've got seven kids. My wife is a family mom. We're not moms anymore. We're Yeah. I got your grandkids that are fucking teenagers. If you stay up traditional and you ask five different guys, you're gonna get five different answers. If you ask somebody what masculinity is, you say that my food from scratch and process it out the garden and the whole lot. Hang on. Hang on. What's your everybody else in 02/01/2025
[01:28:24] Martae Rayless:
understands the same lingo you do? What what's your universal
[01:28:28] Steve :
definition for masculinity? There you go. Now we can get to now we can have definition for universal definition for that.
[01:28:37] allen marcus:
I did ask that thirty minutes ago. Sorry, man. It's it's mandatory.
[01:28:42] Martae Rayless:
A lot to nail
[01:28:43] allen marcus:
down that good traditionally conservative. What is this topic we're talking about. Other questions that chat are asking. Okay, guys. You're you're big. You're strong. Man, what are you doing to show this and demonstrate and be very patient with the young people who are just afraid to even make eye contact. They're so intimidated by Marte and Bolesons and Muscles, and you guys are intimidating men. How are you showing your softness and and your approachability and leading the young men into Fear. Femininity.
[01:29:16] Martae Rayless:
Right? He's going to cosmetics. I'm gonna go to something more virtuous like conserving. It's in the name. So if you're going to conserve and preserve something, it's actually in the name. It's baked in that. So if I'm a masculine man, what am I going to conserve? Virtue, truth, righteousness and a consistent being. So if I'm consistent, this isn't muscles. Masculinity isn't muscles. It's not a beard or any of this stuff. Masculinity is your consistency, your loyalty, the truth that you hold that's consistent. Women are gonna feel safe if you're firm, fair, and consistent in your truth, what this is. Not a beard because I know so many pussies that have beards. Like, let's be real. Making a joke. He asked me how to make it softer, and I was saying the beard makes it softer. Okay. What?
[01:30:01] Steve :
Hair is not be soft. How does that hang on. How does that equate
[01:30:07] Unknown:
with the Let's try that again.
[01:30:10] Steve :
Definition of conservatism?
[01:30:14] allen marcus:
Mhmm.
[01:30:15] Steve :
Well, it's in the word. Right? Make those to conserve and preserve the virtue of the truth, the righteousness of specifically orthodox church. Real quick. Steve. Let me put it out here. I think the state is an illegitimate entity that only exists through theft, extortion, and violence, and repeated offenses of theft, extortion, and violence. This is a different argument, by the way. But But but couch conservatism into your worldview where you're just describing what it means to be, like, a fairly decent fucking dude.
[01:30:57] Martae Rayless:
What's couch conservatism? Can you give me a few seconds? This is conservatism. You said that. So But I didn't put a label on it. Can you tell me what couch conservatism conservatism
[01:31:08] Unknown:
to the trade. He's saying how do you fit it into there when he's saying couch? He's saying how do you fit conservative What does that what does that mean? Couch conservative? He's saying he's saying how does that fit into that definition? Is what a conservative
[01:31:20] Steve :
is, and I want you to to make it make sense to me that conservative equals being a decent fucking dude.
[01:31:35] Martae Rayless:
So if you think about things, how do we work culture by letting a lot of Muslims comes in come in, change traditions? That's totally
[01:31:42] Steve :
that's what I'm talking about. Let let's the the definition of conservative in your mind equate that to, in general, being a decent fucking human being.
[01:31:55] Martae Rayless:
Right. But I'm giving you a hypothetical demonstrate.
[01:31:58] Steve :
To, I guess, a political party or a political ideology when this ideology
[01:32:05] Martae Rayless:
exists Oh, I'm not talking about party, though. Planet
[01:32:08] Steve :
regardless of what you call the party.
[01:32:11] Martae Rayless:
You're talking about parties. I'm talking about being conservative. They can be two different things. Okay. Explain that. That's how it is. You're talking about not just political
[01:32:18] Steve :
modern day political context. Are you, like, interchanging traditional Now you're you're you're doing a bunch of fucking jumbling here. No. You're moving to politics. We're talking about masculinity.
[01:32:30] Martae Rayless:
This is a you're you're the one that's moving to politics. We're talking about masculinity as far as computing masculinity.
[01:32:35] Steve :
You're the one who said conservative, so make it a lot more like that.
[01:32:41] Unknown:
I said conservative.
[01:32:43] Steve :
That it's generally accepted by every fucking human being on the planet. Make it make sense in that context.
[01:32:52] Martae Rayless:
If I was eating at a buffet, would somebody say I'm being conservative if I limit what's on my plate?
[01:32:59] Steve :
Make it make sense in the context that you said it because you said it in a
[01:33:06] allen marcus:
very In the context of virtue,
[01:33:09] Steve :
truth, and righteousness. Conservative
[01:33:12] Unknown:
only exists in a couple of countries.
[01:33:14] Steve :
And it would say it exists in a couple of western countries, and it has a very, very, very fucking limited definition by most accounts. So make it make sense within the context that you said it instead of trying
[01:33:31] Unknown:
to jump around to a bunch of other shit. Please. I have to in order for me to do the right righteousness and conservatism.
[01:33:38] Steve :
Assuming they're all smart. Assuming they're all not fucking retard. Steve
[01:33:44] allen marcus:
Steve said like you would talk to us on your level. So Steve explains the state as being, you know, theft and violence through the use use the use of force. So the state legitimizes itself through its own use of force. The idea of a conservative umbrella, there's the idea of nationalism and authoritism. So we're talking about manhood and leadership at its in society and culture. We see leadership and manhood and masculinity through the what we would call patriarchy and male leadership and, you know, president. Yeah. We're a male president. This type of thing. So how does this go to a level? Fucking cuck,
[01:34:20] Steve :
and you're a statist fucking cuck, and all you're going to do is lap the balls and take the fucking cum in your throat of the state whenever it's most convenient to you. That's where I'm coming from.
[01:34:36] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But I can separate the state from so we we initially had a a debate about masculinity. What is that? And me being conservative with masculinity, I wasn't talking about politics at all. I wasn't making reference to this. But you made a made a a leap towards political agendas made a logical connection towards political parties. I wasn't doing that. Yeah. That that wasn't my argument. That's not what I was saying. So I can clarify this for you. So what I mean definitionally is, like, in the word definition, what does it mean to conserve something? So actually, Alan nailed it. He said conserving values, traditions, functions, and duties, things like this. If we can conserve this, this is also adjacent to preserving something. If you can preserve this, this means that you're holding some frame. Right? If we don't hold on to these traditions, we lose this. This This is how we have trans transformer communities and everything because they're not conserving masculinity.
All of this is being outsourced. They're literally conceding to women when we do this. And mental health is degrading
[01:35:34] Steve :
is the process of this. You get what I'm saying, Alan. Right? Yes. I do. I and I understand what you're saying, but make that make sense in an argument that isn't an argument Steve, are you referencing?
[01:35:46] allen marcus:
Condition. Are you referencing? Like submission to the particular fallacy.
[01:35:51] Steve :
Make it no longer the What is the argument to tradition fallacy? The argumentum ad antiquatum. Make it opposite of that. Make it make sense on a lot of with it and shit even.
[01:36:04] Unknown:
Take that, motherfucker.
[01:36:07] allen marcus:
Say it one more time. Deepgram. I am
[01:36:10] Steve :
way smarter than I look, motherfucker.
[01:36:13] Unknown:
I am You know I know this. You know I know this. The the fallacy, the the appeal to the tradition.
[01:36:20] Martae Rayless:
So the truth How is that? How that's a fallacy. Consume
[01:36:24] Steve :
is good, man. I'm a civilized man. Supposed to be. That's the way we're doing it. That is, by definition, argumentum ad
[01:36:34] Martae Rayless:
antiquatum. I can tell you how it's not. So a tradition by definition is, an experiment that has been proven success I understand the Andrew Wilson definition of it. Argue against the fallacy. Can you tell me how it's a fallacy?
[01:36:50] Steve :
Conservatism as tradition. Pointing to tradition as that's the way we've done it, then that's an argument to tradition, which is the whole fragment.
[01:37:01] Martae Rayless:
So that's a small fragment of this. What I'm saying is I'm making an overbroad generalization of saying preserving value. Right? Your fault. Virtues. Right? Virtues, value, things like this. I'm just making this really dumbed down, for everybody else. Warming it down. You were not retarded and make a a broader and more eloquent definition
[01:37:21] Steve :
because the one that you're working with ain't landing. So how The traditional family that we have preserve value in the tradition. No. No. No. No. For you.
[01:37:30] Martae Rayless:
The traditional family keeping that intact by having order structure, like, meaning, like, I'm not going to let my relationship be open. Right? I'm not gonna have a open relationship. I'm not gonna allow any avert anything to come in and avert my relationship like that. Right? Meaning, like, we we have a shared common belief system in the structure of marriage. That's a way to Yeah. The Germanic system. I love Well, you're you're a Muslim Muslim. You're you're doing many I mean, like, that that has those exact same characteristics. So does Christianity. So do the Amish. Like, you see what I'm saying? So it's like you're just Right. Making sure that what are you really doing is my point. If you can give an argument to every
[01:38:14] Steve :
major religion, what are you trying to drill down on?
[01:38:19] Martae Rayless:
We're conserving the values and structures of of, traditions that make this successful. And, yes, I'm bringing up tradition again. But when you think about a nuclear family, what's been proven successful? That's not a fallacy when I say this. So if you see this, what is most likely to be successful to lead to, like, better outcomes? And, yes, we could talk about utilitarian example, but how would this be wrong? How would this be bad if we preserve that and conserve the values of just having this family intact?
[01:38:47] Steve :
That would be up to you on the damage. Reverse and putting forward the argument. Right?
[01:38:53] Unknown:
And and in fact, not only do I think that the Germanic family unit is the way to go for me to answer Marcus's question on my part, the the the defining factor of masculinity is your ability to husband. And I'm not just talking about in a simping way with women. Husbandry is the man's highest calling. That when you start out as a little kid, the way you take care of a dog, that tells a lot about what that kid what's going on with that kid, how he treats his fucking dog. And then when you get a little bit older and you start getting some responsibility, like, you know, a job, and you start acting responsibly at that job and taking care of things and doing what you're supposed to do and being the person that when he sees something wrong, just fixes it and take and and has a relationship, especially this is why a dog was such a key because a dog can't talk back. To have a true good relationship with that dog, you need to have an an uncommunicated relationship where you understand when your dog's not feeling well, what its needs are, things like that. And then Sound of tradition.
When you start oh, yeah. It's Germanic tradition. I a 100% agree. And it Oh, it's it's okay for you to bring it when I do it. It it existed it historically existed before Christianity. I agree with what you're saying. He's at least providing examples. That's something you did I'm just providing examples. And then as as a homeowner and a farm owner, my wife got to see before she submitted to me. She got to see that I was somebody who took care of my animals, took care of my home, provide provided for the things under my care. So guess what she felt comfortable doing? Submitting and putting herself under my care and being a loving and traditional wife who now is now somebody that takes care of me, my children, my grandchildren, and and does it to the point where she even takes our food out of the garden and makes homemade stuff in Kansas, so we have it all year.
[01:40:53] Martae Rayless:
Does all the things you could ever imagine from, like, real health on the prairie. Here's the problem. I did try to bring up an example, but I was overtalked. I was going to bring up a hypothetical, but, yeah, by the way, I don't know if you heard this, Marcus. I was on my way to bring up an up, and I couldn't do this. So when you say you didn't bring up an example, I made several attempts to do this, and I got overtalked, and I was that like, basically, I remember being spicy. I I recognized it too. He was spicy. Like, bro. It's like you gotta be able to at least let somebody have a have a discussion and finish your example land a plane. Because I let you, Benjamin, land your plane. I let you, Steve, land your plane. But when I try to land a plane, it's like 09:11. My plane never lands. That's what's happening right here. I don't hear anybody interrupting you until just now. Go ahead, man. Right. Thank you. I appreciate it. That was a good demonstration of what I wanted. That's it. So my example is, like, if you let anybody in your house, right, meaning, like, anybody who invert your culture let's say if I have some sheikhs come in and they say, no. We're gonna throw these crosses out. We're gonna have these incense lanterns in here. We're gonna change your whole structure. I think that if we don't if we don't maintain this and we allow inversion to come in our home and change our like, if somebody comes in and they're renting a backroom of our house and they slowly but surely start changing our systems, our traditions, and religions, I think that's a bad thing. We're not preserving or conserving anything, and then they're around our kids, you know, and then our kids are gonna buy into that, and that's propagandization.
And maybe they're indoctrinating them by some degree by allowing the chic religious sect to come in here. I think that's a good example. I was gonna bring up, like, immigrants, but I I could throw that out. But that's one good example. I can make, like, 50 others. No. I I agree with everything that you're saying. The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying
[01:42:38] Steve :
is that you're giving an individualistic example of somebody coming into your home. This would be the point of having to the government does this to us
[01:42:51] Martae Rayless:
on purpose and You realize magic people are the same. Right? Is an illegitimate
[01:42:58] Steve :
entity. And if you're basing your religiosity on, a coexistence with something like the state that is illegitimate and will always do this, always put foreigners into your house in order to make them make decisions for you, then what you're doing as a default worshiper of the state is ensuring that this is going to happen to you over and over and over and over again. Steve, that's the analogous me ask let me ask Steve. Steve How's this analogous? Steve, I understand. That men should not submit to the state.
[01:43:38] allen marcus:
The government is the one that is allowing the opposite of conservatism and the opposite of the preservation tradition. Have a conservative government currently. Okay. There we have it. So in terms of preserving the tradition and the tradition of conserving the decor of the home without the inversion protecting the house, is this your personal
[01:44:03] Steve :
property? Well, hang on, man. Because our conservative government right now is saying that we can put thousands of federal troops in the streets while we have a private dinner in the Rose Garden Supper Club Right. And this is a technological elite. That's what our current government under the guise of conservatism is doing. Our current government under the guise of conservatism is saying that the technocratic state is what is going to supplant the current form of government. Our current conservative government is saying that government overreach is absolutely fine as long as we do it to people that we don't like.
So our conservative government is neither conservative nor governing. It's dictating, And that's a very, very different thing. So what we're living under right now is a complete out in the open oligarchy that has nothing to do with a representative republic or any sort of semblance of representative democracy. So I reject all of that on its fucking face. Steve, you know, realize you're in a different argument right now, right, from the original,
[01:45:28] Martae Rayless:
tandem that we were jumping off of. Right? So when we're talking about traditional masculinity and what this means, now we're talking about government and overrule and overreach, which is a completely whole different subsect of an argument that we It is related to leadership. We're we're talking about real time advanced. Yeah. But if we I'm trying to be a little bit more concise here. That's what I'm saying. So but do you realize how we could just have more of a broad example? Like, I'm just trying to be a little bit more concise and holds things hold things down. If we can get past the definition of masculinity, which I haven't heard from your, definition or Benjamin's example, I've given, like, a semblance of mine. But if we can't even move past that and we're already on an overreach of government authority, it's like, alright. I mean, I understand this, but can I hear your definition, Steven? Your yours, Benjamin.
[01:46:15] allen marcus:
That that was mine. Benjamin did state that the ability of a man The husband. Husband.
[01:46:21] Unknown:
The husbandry. That's the call number one calling you. Isn't just which isn't just a husband as a husband wife. It's I run my farm. I run my I'll take care of all my animals. That that's the epitome of man.
[01:46:34] Steve :
Right. I I would I would agree with that. I I would say that that a a masculine man has, authority over his home and influence in his community to the point to where other people would defer to that man's authority, wisdom, experience in order to draw from it so that they could make better, more informed decisions. Outside of that, I I don't have anything to add.
[01:47:12] Unknown:
Exactly. Just like the easy example is my tomato garden. If you're gonna if you're gonna ask somebody, how do I take care of tomatoes? Who should lead us in taking care care care of tomatoes? Well, it's probably the guy with the giant tomato garden that's just crazy. Looks like a jungle. Seems to be the boys to to me. That's husbandry. Yeah. So husbandry is all those things that you do, and that is the epitome of man, and that's who you're supposed to pick as a leader. If I was if there was a group of 20 farms, the guy who took care of his farm the best, the animals on it were the most well taken care of, everything was in good repair and in good order, he would be the one that we would go to to say, hey.
[01:47:55] allen marcus:
How should we run shit? Because you seem really good at it. So the connection the connection in the government here is the question I hear that. Who is the provider? If I hear what he said. Welfare state, the provider becomes the government Right? Well, my question is conservative or liberal,
[01:48:13] Martae Rayless:
left or right. They're the government like in this city. I hear, like I I hear when you're talking about in the country, do homesteading, I'm hearing a lot of that. But in the city, what does this look like to you? In masculinity, I don't think I hear a lot of men living out in the country. Most of us live in the suburbs. Most of us live in the city. When I talk about what's your definition masculinity, I think I just wanna hear, like, something that's more broad that most people can relate to. Own homes in the city?
[01:48:40] Unknown:
People don't own homes in the city?
[01:48:43] Martae Rayless:
No. I'm saying what does this look like in the in the suburbs? What does masculinity look like to you? That's that's what he's trying to to say. Your home. So you're saying that people in the city shouldn't for them to be masculine, they should be able to have goats, tomato farms, and things like this. Like, what does that look like? That's an ass of a 100%.
[01:49:01] Unknown:
If not, you're a fucking slave.
[01:49:04] Martae Rayless:
Right. But what does that look like to you in the city, in the suburbs, if we're talking overall? Because there's a majority who don't live out in the in the woods or anything. The majority live in populated areas. What does masculinity look like to you then? He is right. So the way that you maintain
[01:49:21] Steve :
masculinity in that environment is that you have a fairly fairly rigorous set of, of freaking standards that you
[01:49:38] Martae Rayless:
live by. Yeah. But what is that? Everyone in
[01:49:41] Steve :
this is what every Ortho bro on the planet
[01:49:45] Martae Rayless:
would be for you. I'm asking you what it looks like. Not Ortho bros, not anybody else. If you were in the city, what does this look like? Because you're giving me a broad generalization. What does this look like? Can you give me an example? A guy lives in the city. He's in a high rise apartment. What does masculinity look like to you? High rise apartment not owning his own home. Okay. So a man that can't afford his own home or living in his own so masculinity is material.
[01:50:10] Steve :
Ben Ben has this crazy fucking idea
[01:50:14] Unknown:
that anybody who didn't get a fucking home loan for a place and, you know Steve, did I get a home loan there? If you don't know, say something. Did I get a home loan? Did I get inheritance from my parents?
[01:50:25] Unknown:
But hold on. I mean, why don't you get home to you?
[01:50:30] Martae Rayless:
It's your mom's name. Let's switch her under the word provider if the man is providing That that logic is happening in my mom's name because she put in on part of it. Right. So a man can be masculine if he lives in a high rise or owns a condo.
[01:50:45] Unknown:
He's not a masculine condo. Right? Let's say he rents it. Let's say he rents a condo because have right why should he have rights? Why should he be considered what it what you consider a man?
[01:50:56] Unknown:
Why should he be able to home and you pay taxes. That's not your home anymore. Right?
[01:51:01] Martae Rayless:
If you own a home and you don't pay taxes, that's not your home anymore. Right? I mean, technically, the bank owns your property. Depends on which state you're in. Right. So do you really own a home? That's my thing. So if you're done enough to run-in the table, you know you know that state to state. Right? So hold on. If you're coming masculine dominant way in the bank owns your person of masculinity, that's your definition, is materialism?
[01:51:23] allen marcus:
That's a fair question.
[01:51:24] Unknown:
That is what I'm hearing. Is the is the You can say it's materialism. Nobody said that you had to have fucking a luxury mansion. But if you can't have your own home, you ain't any kind of a man without your own land.
[01:51:38] Martae Rayless:
But hold on. How are how do you own a home if it could be taken away from you if you don't pay taxes? Do you really truly own a home? So if that's your definition, look masculine That's the that's the that's the that's the that's the that that's part
[01:51:52] Unknown:
of being in a society. Every homeowner and historically ever
[01:51:57] Steve :
As you know, you would just have to bring it that you don't actually own your your home. That's why But Martinez
[01:52:07] Martae Rayless:
The definition of the masculinity is conditional.
[01:52:09] Unknown:
That's what it is. That's why that's why homeowners were the only ones allowed to vote because you were the ones responsible for this. Yeah. But that's not my argument. The dudes living in an apartment, they're just transients. They aren't they aren't the they aren't men that you can count on. But that's not my argument. That's not what I'm saying. Argument in the way of the question of how do we conserve
[01:52:31] allen marcus:
and preserve the tradition and allow men to be leaders. The answer given by Balderson is that men who own land are able to vote and in their local community are able to enforce the preservation
[01:52:46] Martae Rayless:
of the problem with this, though. The problem with this is is he's saying, you're not masculine unless you own land. So your definition of masculinity, you own land. That's what it boils down to. I have not heard someone say you're not a man. It's not Well, no. That's the that's the logical entailment of this, though. That's the logical entailment of this. Agreeing with them. You're a little boy if you own if you don't own your own If you reduce this down, that's where his argument reduces down to. How does it not reduce down to a bit? Policy to reduce, the argument. Right. Well, if we take this so okay. So if we take his argument and we say, what's masculine? Well, if you don't own your own home, you're not masculine.
[01:53:26] allen marcus:
Okay. Great. Given what's being implied. It's not. You can provide a home in the city, but to what degree
[01:53:34] Unknown:
effectively. Why you wanna be a provider? The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the has to be an extension. Home. I gave her a home. I don't need a home. Is
[01:53:53] Steve :
that predominantly
[01:53:55] Unknown:
Christy, did you own a home? Home. I don't own a home.
[01:54:03] Martae Rayless:
Because black have it first of all. Because Earth is ownership. We're saying ownership.
[01:54:08] Steve :
Own the most property. Bill Gates owns the most property. Ben is saying that Bill Gates is much more of a man than you, Morte, because he owns property. Bill Gates with his bitch tits and his fucking lizard neck is much more of a man, and Ben will die on that hill. That's an aim that Bill is the epitome of masculinity.
[01:54:34] Unknown:
Steve also knows.
[01:54:37] Steve :
I believe the whole better laws. No. Shut the fuck up, Ben. I ain't done. Ben is saying I'm feeling that he boils down from materialism, basically. That's really what his argument is. Bitch titted tech nerds are so much more of a man than anybody else on the planet because they're the predominant property owners. That's what Ben's saying. Ben's saying people that he wouldn't even fucking throw a drink at are worth more than everybody, not just on the screen right now, but on the entire channel, on anybody else who would ever see this based on his metrics. That's what Ben's saying. Well, I've heard my team there. Couldn't even pick up a fucking hammer or more of a man based on Ben's logic than anybody else on the fucking planet. So Ben, how is your man? He's the most They own more property than Ben. So Ben's a little bitch because Bill Gates owns more property than him. That's what he's saying. That's Ben's logic right now. That's crazy.
[01:55:46] Unknown:
Yeah. But that's his logic. Know we're gonna die. Also knows already knows ahead of time. He's spicy tonight. That that, in a dynamic better laws. Yeah. State also knows that they don't even hold better laws. Bill Gates has more of a man than Ben. Bill Gates has no ability to farm all the farmland that he owns. Zero. Well Maybe Let me put it this way. Maybe he could. You haven't given him a chance, dude. You have Microsoft enough John Deere with the fucking satellites and the fucking thingies.
[01:56:18] Steve :
Microsoft So Ben's logic is inherently flawed in this, and we've discovered that. But that's okay. That is. That's fine. Microsoft as a job provider
[01:56:27] Unknown:
allows men to return to the office. In fact, Microsoft is asking me you the fucking tamales with the fucking with the habaneros tonight?
[01:56:37] allen marcus:
A paycheck is how modern man provides. Balderson has stated that living off of the land and being into husbandry, farming, and gardening means he can provide from the resources of the land.
[01:56:51] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But do you understand the distinction of what when I dive down into his worldview, he says, you have to own land. Right? So that means that only like, if I ask him this so without materialism, can you be a man? That's my question I wanna ask. Can you be a man without materialism, Benjamin?
[01:57:08] Unknown:
You can't provide. You can't feed people out of a field you don't have. And certainly, I don't know. Provide. Let's say this person can't provide. He's rich. He has all the money in the world, and he can provide. If he's rich, he has his own place.
[01:57:22] Martae Rayless:
Nope. The hold on. Elon Musk has blatantly said out front, I'm not going to own a home. I'm not gonna buy a home.
[01:57:29] Unknown:
He's literally said this. Are you really gonna use that weird fucking robot of a fucking artist? But by your logic
[01:57:36] Martae Rayless:
hold on. By your logic, he's very masculine. No. Right? Because he has a lot of things. Right? This is pushing back against the inversion of conservatism.
[01:57:45] allen marcus:
If the line is you will own nothing and you'll be happy, if you are not in ownership of something, then you cannot provide the thing that you do not own. Meaning provider.
[01:57:56] Unknown:
He's a he's actually more of a provider than all of us on the panel. Dudes that he he have asking for money.
[01:58:02] Unknown:
No. He don't really provide for he has, like, 50 How is he not home? He has a company with tons of employees and things take care of. How is he not providing? How is he not more masculine all of a sudden his panel? Talk to them. He don't even talk to his kids. Do you understand how husbandry works? But do you understand how you're kinda moving this a little bit? I'm just fine tuning it. You're asking about Elon Musk, and I'm telling you that he's not doing all the things. You the whole point to having the home is so you can provide a home for your wife and then children. Wait. And that way that's how this whole that's how this whole nuclear family system works. That's why my wife doesn't need to be provided for. Work.
[01:58:42] Martae Rayless:
All his kids need and want for nothing. How is he not providing for anything? Don't take care of, you should read social medias.
[01:58:49] Unknown:
Hold on. How is he not providing or taking care of his kids? His kids walk in provide. They aren't living in his home. He's not watching after them. He's not has doing husbandry. Oh oh, so you're saying by your logic, kings aren't providing for their kids because they had to go on conquest,
[01:59:03] Martae Rayless:
take over other kingdoms because kings were home for their children. Are they not masculine? Right. We don't we don't know where's happening. Raise his he doesn't ever see He's had to leave their kingdom to dominate other lands. Were they not masculine because they left on to love ever see his kids. Going after this conversation. That's everybody. But we've had kings who've left probably for pilgrimages for years and then came back home and reported home for, like, their duties, whatever it is.
[01:59:32] Unknown:
Those guys were gay. They just wanted to hang up with what they're doing. Doing. And shit. No. They are not. Well, by your logic, they're not masculine. No. I agree with that. They're not masculine. In a castle on a throne. That's all Abrahamic people that do These men who conquered kingdom particularly masculine.
[01:59:50] Martae Rayless:
Were letting leading armies were not masculine.
[01:59:55] Unknown:
Were they Abrahamic and on pilgrimages? That's what we just Alright. Now we're obfuscating a little bit. A little obfuscation. Pinch offy skate here. You you brought up pilgrimages. Going to going to battle, that's a job. Well, again, it's hard. Hey. But how are they not masculine? They left their kids at home. Going to work. Gentlemen, they're going to work. Providing.
[02:00:16] allen marcus:
Domestication, dividing cities, putting up a wall. Is this what masculinity is? Is it about putting up a wall, preserving the structure of the city? Marte, you asked directly about can you be a man, and are you masculine if you live in a city? Balderson was pushing back and saying, it's not optimal for men to live in a feminine society. I think, Marty, you also agreed that in a feminine society, living in a cosmopolitan city, that's the melting pot where all different people are forced to live together, they don't get along. Paul Olsen has offered the solution to say, men, leave the city, get some land, garden. Don't go to work for Elon or tech company or Microsoft. That's not gonna lead to happiness and fulfillment.
[02:01:02] Martae Rayless:
Marty, your response. With the masculinity argument when you say don't go to Microsoft or anything else. That's basically saying if you go to Microsoft, you can't be masculine. Like, well, that's also a fallacy. Like and also that's unfalsifiable too when you bring that up. Microsoft
[02:01:16] Unknown:
stop you from being masculine. You're going out and working. You you can own a home that people from Now Benjamin's refuting you, Alan.
[02:01:23] Martae Rayless:
Let's go ahead. He's refuting you now. There's three of us now, and our prayer circle is closing in tighter and tighter and tighter. He's now refuting you right now. But here's the thing, though. The reason why I brought up the city analogy is because, overwhelmingly, the majority people aren't living in that back with communities. This isn't a thing that's happening right now. And, actually, I mean, I don't wanna bring up the black community.
[02:01:45] Unknown:
In fact, it's going more toward your direction where people you know, because we're at an end time apocalypse, so all the fucking morons, like, the cities are like these black holes of idiocy and and and and vagineness, and it just sucks them into it. And all the people we Yeah. But here's the thing, though.
[02:02:04] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. I live close to the city, but I'm not, like, the non masculine person. I don't consider myself not masculine. I mean, unless anybody has anything to refute the fact that I'm masculine or not masculine. But I think that I'm masculine. Right? But I can live in the city. You're saying that somebody so here's the thing. I wanna ask you a question, Benjamin. I'm dying to ask you this question. Can somebody live out in the woods, be a homesteader, and be feminine?
[02:02:31] Unknown:
Even if they both still have feminine. It's still is he is he a does he does does he do good husbandry?
[02:02:38] Martae Rayless:
He's a good husband. Is it possible this guy could be very feminine?
[02:02:43] Unknown:
That he could have, somewhat feminine attributes? He's already displaying many masculine attributes just by being a good husband. He's taking care of his wife. He does everything correctly, but he kisses guys behind her back. Oh, then he's then he's gay. Yeah. That's that's then he's Okay. So even though he fulfills all the way masculine. Gay guys can be masculine, but he's definitely gay.
[02:03:06] Martae Rayless:
Well, okay. And he wears high heels on Saturdays behind his wife's back.
[02:03:10] Unknown:
Then he's a then he's a tranny.
[02:03:12] Unknown:
I mean, she's got no idea.
[02:03:15] Martae Rayless:
I mean, there's a lot of people we have a whole deal community that does stuff that a lot of black women don't know about. But, anyways, that's neither of them. Right. Yeah. Like, this happens in modern day all the time. Matter of fact, it's like we have social media. The only reason why we're doing it now is because it gets exposed. Like, we didn't even know by the way, sidebar, by the way, we didn't even we thought that this whole thing of police brutality was this major epidemic until body camps came out. Now all of a sudden, we have body camps. Oh, were all the police beating all the black people now? All because we're really seeing what's not happening out here. That's also another epidemic that's happening. But back to this, though, I don't think that you need, like, materialism to be a masculine person, but I do agree that husbandry is extremely important. I do believe that is part and parcel would be masculine. If you're a good husband, hey. You know what? I'm gonna agree with you. I can concede. You have to be that's masculine by my part. But by the way, this all agrees with my whole point of conserving. You're conserving masculinity if you are a good husband because you're not allowing inversion in your home. So, actually, you agree with me. That that was not political.
[02:04:20] Unknown:
That was just Steve.
[02:04:21] Martae Rayless:
Well, I was political, and you weren't Steve came in with the whole political agenda of authoritarianism
[02:04:26] Unknown:
that he wanted to sprinkle on top, which I never imbued in this. So Well, that that is that is a good question. Javieros. I think it I think his wife his wife is is spread something further than I wanted to. So
[02:04:38] allen marcus:
Well, that's okay. We're finding where the fence is, where the wall is, and how do you how do you conserve without building a fence around a garden. Right? You wanna keep out the rabbits from stealing your produce. You can offer produce the rabbits later, but that's your garden. And as a man, you set up the boundaries so that it grows. Right. As a provider the government, though. Listen, Marty. As a provider, provider is a man who is
[02:05:03] Martae Rayless:
Zack. Yeah. I must be Marty McFly from
[02:05:07] allen marcus:
buddy. So as a man, being a provider is being resourceful. And in a city, there seems to be a lack of resources, which leads to theft. Right? I need resources. I don't have a legitimate way of getting them turning to theft. That can happen in any So we're talk we're we're we're talking about being resourceful
[02:05:28] Martae Rayless:
as a man. Cities are extreme hold on. That's a double edged sword, though. Cities are extremely resourceful while also having lack of resources as well too. This knife cuts both ways. If you wanna go towards resources, there's supermarkets. There's just a way to get more money from city. I'm not talking about distribution. Of resources. Talking about theft. That's removal of distribution.
[02:05:49] allen marcus:
So you see what I'm saying? Crack with Whose side of the coin? That's what I'm pointing out. Steal it off the truck before it goes to the store. That's that's a different distribution mechanism. Those men are resourceful. We're not arguing that they aren't. Now we're talking about now but but I'm bringing it back to morality. So by being resourceful, you also have this idea that you cannot take which does not belong to you. So you have to be resourceful, which means you have to generate something. So you have to have a resource like a seed to plant it to generate more tomatoes.
[02:06:28] Unknown:
That's Yeah. But you grow it, man. And generating more. That's part of husbandry. Have to have where where would you plant that tomato seed if you don't have land?
[02:06:36] Martae Rayless:
This isn't mutually exclusive to cities. People rob and steal from, I think, county, like, countrysides as well too. You ever heard of somebody getting their livestock stolen? This happens all the time. So when we say this, it's like it's not mutually exclusive. But I will say this, though. I don't think it's a good argument to say because you live in the city, you're not as masculine as people that live in the countryside because we have very masculine people who own construction companies or industrialists. I think those people are just as masculine as people who live in the country because they're actually producing
[02:07:06] Unknown:
say there isn't exceptions. The majority of city people are are are are not masculine.
[02:07:13] Martae Rayless:
No. Hold on. No. If you talk about people in building the infrastructure, a lot of people who maintain infrastructure, garbage men, people like this, they're very masculine men. How are they not masculine?
[02:07:24] Unknown:
They're exceptions. In fact, they can't even find people that 87
[02:07:28] Unknown:
of infrastructure's men. They're not exceptions. They're they're they're they're they're they're they're
[02:07:33] Unknown:
all jobs now, bro. That's all the way up. They're wide open. I'm I'm an electrician.
[02:07:39] Martae Rayless:
You can't you can't even fill those jobs.
[02:07:41] Unknown:
They're being but that's the thing. Wanna all these kids wanna be streamers, video gamers,
[02:07:47] Martae Rayless:
and and and tech dudes. That's what we wanna do. Exceptions. I'm I'm going to school right now to be a diesel tech. There's so many in school right now for decades. Two diesel tech degrees. Right. But this but that proves my point, actually. It's not exception. There's so many people going to diesel mechanics going out.
[02:08:05] Unknown:
When I started when I started being a diesel mechanic, guess what? Men, there was a lot of manly men. And guess what? Diesel mechanics got paid.
[02:08:14] Martae Rayless:
Jack shit. I made $12 an hour. What did diesel mechanics make now? Benjamin, hold on, though. If you're making jack shit and you're not a good provider, doesn't this put a chink in your armor? But you see how materialism isn't the mainstay of masculinity?
[02:08:29] Unknown:
I I wasn't moving. I would work my way up from being a young boy into a man.
[02:08:34] Martae Rayless:
Right. Moving away from this to where you could be a better provider is good, but this would make the argument for Microsoft and people that work in Adam Apple too because they can provide more resources because of monetary gain. But here's the problem, though, that we run into. When you say it's an exception, it's really not an exception. We can look at the stats for this. The stats actually go in my favor. There's a lot of HVAC technicians. There are more electricians now going into the field of trades and less people going to college now because they recognize that this is a a really bad deal, getting a piece of paper and going into debt. A lot of men are opting out of college and going into trades. This is actually slowly starting to pick up right now. So it's not an exception like you think it is now. Well, this goes back to the question. Is still an exception. For those
[02:09:20] allen marcus:
trades is so fantastic now because nobody works in them. That's what I'm asking now specifically about resources being wages. So if a man goes to work to pay
[02:09:30] Unknown:
to make my old ass wanna go back in the trades. And, like like, literally, there's times I look I get all through things, and I'm like, how much money? My ass is leaving the farm. So it just the the the economic shift.
[02:09:45] allen marcus:
Sometimes sometimes it's important to know that there's an economic benefit to live in a city at certain periods of time. At other periods of time, living in a city is going to just end up in poverty and homelessness and joblessness.
[02:10:00] Martae Rayless:
But that's the double edged sword that you're talking about because on the other side, this cuts the other way through. Right? Does this apply to conservatism
[02:10:08] allen marcus:
and orthodoxy? Do orthodox have monasteries and tradition and places for men to go to study, learn skills, and then decide if they go back into the world? Is that a solution that orthodoxy is offering? People in chat have been asking, okay. You guys have talked about what it means to be a man. How does a man go to orthodoxy be to become a better man to learn skills and then become a husband in the full meaning of the word?
[02:10:34] Martae Rayless:
We we do have this. So we do have monasteries. We do have monks. Believe it or not, we have spiritual fathers that we can go to. But here's the thing, though. I am gonna bring up tradition. We have traditions. We have mainstays. And we also not only this, we have an unchanging standard. Of course, I'm bringing up general terms that I've you guys have heard me say a thousand times in this debate. Oh, also, by the way, I I do have to leave in about fifteen because I'm starving. I gotta eat. I'm a provider. You've given us three and a half hours, which too is all we ever expect. You you you you know, it's Right. But just understand that I love discourse, and I love battle. I love debates. If you guys have seen me in any battle, by the way, I have a debate that's happening this, I think it's this Thursday. Me versus everybody. I'm I'm debating yourself out, bro. Pimp yourself out. That's alright. Where's that? Where's that? Lay it out.
It'll be on the raging tomato this Thursday, and I'm debating 20. As many people can come, just gonna knock them down on the story. Fair moderation.
[02:11:32] Unknown:
Well, what is the debate topic?
[02:11:34] Martae Rayless:
I don't even need fair moderation. I I I kinda, like, love it when it's rambunctious, and I could just lop heads off left and right. Perfect.
[02:11:43] Unknown:
I like it. You guy you guys all know Sarah Tomato. I I've been on there a number of times. You guys all know her. Go check him out. What what is the debate topic?
[02:11:55] Martae Rayless:
Can, corn stars be saved?
[02:11:58] allen marcus:
What is that? I'm defending that. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay.
[02:12:03] Unknown:
Fun topic. Fun topic. You could you could you could spend you so so you could spend your whole young life take it taken Slong and then go to Jesus and you can, and and that's cool?
[02:12:16] Martae Rayless:
We can't we can't make that that claim. We can't say with certainty.
[02:12:21] Unknown:
You can't say you can't say with certainty that, it's not either.
[02:12:26] Martae Rayless:
Well, this goes both you realize this goes both ways. Right? You're saying the same thing I'm saying. Right? That we don't know.
[02:12:31] Unknown:
Like, we can't say it within your heart whether you're saying it or not. We know we know what happens to people because their actions send them where they're supposed to be. None of that. There would there be a distinction in the debate and the argument specifically focus on male
[02:12:46] allen marcus:
or female man or woman stars?
[02:12:50] Martae Rayless:
They're they're mainly because societally, we're looked at differently. If you look at men, we're not judged by our body count, whereas women are. And the reason why is historically is because we had to determine, like, which whose baby this was before DNA testing came out. That's why on their part, this was bad. There's a revulsion that we have as men if we know a woman slept around. But for guys, it's like, okay. I've seen that you can bed women. It's like so it's proven, so actually that's more social proof. But here's the thing that I wanna go away from. We wanna go away from the culture of men sleeping around because that should be as demonized as women sleeping around because now you're complaining about hoes while creating them at the same time. This creates a performative contradiction if somebody walks around. You can't complain about the problem by now you're the pharmaceutical company saying, we're gonna give you cyprexis or whatever this thing is, but you're gonna be have these all these bad side effects from this. Oh, we have the solution for that. That's you right now. It's like if you're the guy in the radical community espousing these beliefs, you're stupid. Like, you're literally brain cells rubbing together if you're making these points. But these are these are the people I debate all day long on panels. We've tried to get in to debate the red pill, the community. They won't debate us either.
[02:13:59] Unknown:
The I I a 100% agree with what you're saying right there. Yeah. In fact, historically, like I said, Germanic society, you weren't allowed to sleep around. If you slept out if you stepped outside your marriage, you were you were gonna suffer socially severely. And, historical guys that slept around even when they weren't married, and an easy example for me to use is, Yarl Hakan, who was a well loved figure, but he was philandering with some of the with some of the girls, and they threw it they overthrew him just specifically because he philandered with girls. Had had nothing else to do with his leadership manners or anything.
Even in in more recent history, most people couldn't possibly tell you why Bill Bill Clinton was impeached. The only thing that they remember is that he flandered and that he he went behind his wife and spooged on Monica Lewinsky, and they they know all about that. They don't know anything else about the legal, ramifications of why he was, impeached. The only thing that they stood out is he's a bad guy because he because he was a Flanderer. That this has never historically been accepted, and it's not a good thing. It's not a leadership quality in any means. And, I don't understand where the red pill community gets off with that. I understand where they're trying to lift men up and make men be stronger. I'm fully with that.
But this part where they think that they can just run around philandering and not, act like a good man and then expect to get the high quality woman, you're fucking nuts.
[02:15:42] Martae Rayless:
Well, here's the other problem with that too is that, like, let's say if I did create a justification for why I should sleep around. Right? Well, when I start having this culture of why I should sleep around, do you think one day I could possibly have a daughter who I don't want somebody like me to run into? You see the problem? So not only is this really faulty logic, but even when you say, I want all the benefits of the spoils, you don't want anybody like you running into your daughter. So this creates an inversion. This creates contradictions. It's like so by my estimation, if you ever take Christ out of the picture, it implodes.
So their logic and the reason why I don't like it so there's two different things I like to be concise about. There's the red pill I believe in, which is like a descriptive packet of, like, okay. These are warning site signs, cautionary tales, things to look out for, and then there's, like, an overcorrection of, like, rules for thee, but not for me. So that's the point. It's not a prescription. It's bad if you try to make prescriptions out of this, and it falls horribly on its face.
[02:16:43] Unknown:
Yeah. No. I I agree with that. It's not a functional community. Some and then also, they're very, like like, you got Rolo Tomasi telling guys to fucking go and get and get themselves made into fucking Unix. You know? Go go go get, go get sex. So that way you could just run around and have sex freely with whatever girl dumping loads, and you don't have to worry about procreating or anything and, you know, just ruining any legacy that you're ever gonna have.
[02:17:15] allen marcus:
And, you know, just it's a weird community. Well So I got I got a final question to to kind of wrap this up. And Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. So here's here's the deal with this. I understand that, some some men, you know, young men learn differently. And you, as an older, wiser man, are attempting to share your story and say these are mistakes we've made. Some men need to learn the hard way by doing the thing that you're telling them not to do to find out for themselves. Now you're saying that leads to all sorts of breakdown and and troubles and things that young men carry into their early adulthood. So in a in a perfect world with Christ being the center growing up in a Christian home, there's sort of this I've noticed this sort of inverse sort of chart. So people who grow up in a Christian home, then they go to, like, a Christian college, they either they skid them, so they either go extremely the the they're maybe they're a pastor and they start pastoring in a church and they stay Christian, or they go agnostic or atheist. So they've tried it. So from birth, being raised in a Christian home, what is the outcome? Either stay in the church or you leave the church. Now you were raised in a Christian home or you had some sort of church experience. You kinda went off, found out what the world was like, and now you're coming back.
What what is that experience? And were you the type of person that needed to, I wouldn't say, find out for yourself, but what what was the draw? Was it You went on a wrong Springer. Yeah. Was it was it was it the need for to be a provider and to have that sort of materials and the money? Was it was it draw up money specifically? Get a car, get a house, settle down, and then do this thing?
[02:18:58] Martae Rayless:
Well, can I address something first before we get to this? The Rola Tomasi thing. Yeah. With this, I think that, in my belief, I haven't I mean, I I think I've heard this through a third party that this was uttered. But the thing is, though, we have a solution with this. I can go on the rational mail and have a conversation. We could do a deep dive. I think there are solutions for this. Because here's the thing, though. When we have and I'll get back to your, question now, and then I'll answer it thoroughly. Lies. Yep. Yep. We have when I have relationships with women. Right. Well, here here's the thing, though. We can't complain about problems if we don't provide a solution because all we're doing is complaining. We're doing the same thing that women do. We don't want to become these men that complain like we're sitting on here. We can complain about people that aren't here. What I do is I go in these trenches and I I meet these men on their battlefield and I have discourse with them. If I'm have having a disagreement, I would say that men shouldn't touch their bodies as far as I think having a discipline and having suffering. Maybe if that's from you denying your flesh from certain things and running through several women, I think that's good. That's just plain old fashioned discipline by saying, you know what? I don't wanna sleep with her if I'm not gonna marry her. I think that's a good tenant to have. Then you don't have to reduce yourself down to a eunuch. I think they're salute and that's like the natural thing. Abstinence is a form of contraception, but people don't wanna talk about this. But back to what you're saying, I think that we all make mistakes. Right? And this goes to the redemption that I'm talking about at Christianity. I think that if we are going to make a mistake, I don't think that we we want people reliving mistakes when we see, like, a roadblock in front of their path. We don't want this diesel diesel mechanic over here running into this wall and screwing up their whole frame, screwing up the manifold, everything else, just destroying everything. Right? If we could see somebody in the path of this and we could say, I'm gonna tell this person the worst horror story and and because we had, like, what we're talking about just and tell us, remember we were talking about oral tradition?
I think we can create oral tradition in our homes with their sons and daughters. By our stories and have our horror stories and accounts, I think that when we have Aesop's tales and things like the Brothers Grimm, they were really horrible stories. If you look at the The Mermaid, it was a horrible story. The Gretel and Hansel, the wolf, bad wolf. These are really horror stories you're telling. These aren't really Disney fairy tales. If we have these horror stories and we can tell our sons and make these distinct lessons passed down, I think that this can hold a lot of power through not only shame, but learning lessons. And this goes back to homeschooling kids. This goes back to main traditional structures. And actually, this can be the glue to our family to create these, by the way, I'm gonna say this word again, traditions that we pass down. My grandfather told me a story. His grandfather told me a story about why we don't do this with women, and I think that's the start. But I think changing laws and unwrapping all this up at once, changing laws to make despair towards men where men have reproduction rights towards these kids and not offering these kids through these planned parenthood, stations that we have, I think that's a start. But I think legislation starts with what I do as a form of debate on these panels against senators, against professors, against lawyers. I just returning. I think I think if we could do this, we can cheat the hearts and minds at home like we do our kids with these stories that we pass down. And I think it's very powerful if we could do this.
That's my that's one solution, and I think it's great if we can wrap this in a form of entertainment and feed our kids this. Because it has to be entertaining. I think we could be charismatic and then tell our kids this, and they can relive this in our imagining yourself as that person? This is very powerful. If we could pass stories down to our kids of what to do in a creative, charismatic approach, they can then see, oh, I've seen this horror story already. My dad told me this. I'm not doing this. I heard this girl say this. The in that story, they said so you see what I'm saying? So I think this is a very diplomatic and great approach to actually create a bonding scenario between you and a son, you and a daughter, to create cautionary tales. I think this is extremely important and can do so to families. So I I appreciate that. The one thing I'll add to that is this this difficulty
[02:23:14] allen marcus:
in navigating the world as a young person in uncertain times with the fear of technology taking over and not wanting to be a backwards farmer shoveling manure. That's that's a dirty job. That's icky. I wanna try to find a clean coding job. I wanna work with AI, you know, and these types of things. I wanna stream Minecraft for a living, YouTuber, that sort of thing. Make 6 figures from your home with a computer. That'd be great. Not not not many people get those opportunities. Some people do. That's a blessing. The the point of being a man in this modern time is to rebel. There's always gonna be this sort of youthful rebelling. That's the spring of wanting to do something different than your parents with your your church. And this sort of this sort of return to orthodoxy is kind of a a question mark in my mind because when young people haven't experienced the world and then they go to orthodoxy, do you think there's going to be a time where they need a rumspringer?
Or is you know, you talk about redemption and avoiding sin, and celibacy is okay, and absence is okay, and this type of thing. Now are you denying? Final question, you know, maybe it's another debate, but my my final thought is if these young men go immediately, you know, from high school and then they go to a Christian college or they weren't they didn't have a church home, but at some point during their youthful rebellion phase, they deny the flesh. They suffer through it. They they're okay with celibacy, but then you get do you get a 40 year old virgin scenario? Do you have a a situation where the man doesn't have experience of the world and then sort of longs for it and has a midlife crisis and buys a car and then becomes a Flander and sleeps around. So at some point, there are there are natural biological energies that need to be channeled in a proper direction.
I guess my personal critique and misunderstanding of orthodox members from their parents' home joining a Discord server becoming an online catechumen, not having a car to visit a location in a church, this type of thing. I don't think that's against orthodoxy. I think this is the struggle of young men needing to become self reliant and providers for themselves, and that's sort of a great challenge that we'll probably have to, you know, meet up again in another point to to address that specifically, but that is kind of my main concern. I don't know that orthodoxy is a one size fits all solution. Bald Balderson is presenting another opportunity for other men to consider as well.
[02:25:34] Martae Rayless:
It's a problem. It's problematic. And the reason why I would say, it's very problematic is because things can become a fad. Things can become very fatty and trendy, and I would caution against people just jumping into it because it's a trend, because it's hot, because, we've heard the word ortho bros because I wanna be ortho bro, and I just wanna become an ortho bro debater. This is a bad this can be a very bad thing because now all of a sudden, you have bitter people that are in an industry that are literally pushing people away from Christ. We wanna push against that. The reason why I'm doing this is because I can see myself and other people that did mistakes that I did. And if you notice, during even this whole debate, you know, I I was very open, transparent.
They have a hard time doing this. You could see the distinction because when people get on these panels and they're not genuine, they move to attacks, They move to just chain you could just easily tell I'm pretty sure that you're very, is is purse you're per very perceptive if you see somebody and they're disingenuous. There are these little actions that you could pick up on. You've lived on this world long enough to tell during a debate or during discourse when so you're like, this person isn't really genuine. They just wanna hear to be be here to be right, and that's what I wanna caution against. If you're in this space, and I wanna say this to everybody because this is streaming on my ex. This is streaming on my YouTube. I wanna say to people that are watching this, if you're in this debate here, enter in your bro, this is wrong. You shouldn't get into this. Your salvation and you doing this should be an individualistic thing. You shouldn't do this. This should not be commercialized.
It shouldn't be a repackaged Mattel thing off the truck. This makes no sense. You're you're literally taking this, and you're pushing more people away from this. But here's what I would say. With modern tech and with pornography and everything else that's perpetuating our system, it's hard to meet one person that's even in in, what I would say, catechumen or anybody else that's even in the Protestant church that hasn't experienced softcore, anything on Instagram or anything. So I think that we go through our own sowing of oats through social media. We're inundated with so much softcore corn through other means and advertisements that we've one time seen a tit. You know? It's it's gonna happen. So it's like there's never gonna be a guy it runs into that's an absolute 40 year old version that's never seen a breast in his life. It's almost, like, I would I would think you're lying. You told me there's a guy that exists that hasn't seen any of this stuff. So we've all been through our source of temptation. And you're Have you met Marcus, sir? Have you met Marcus? He is pure as the driven snow.
[02:28:17] Unknown:
And we will be auctioning him off soon. But pre auction, the the chat is wanting to know what denomination of donation is needed in order for you to stream shirtless and let go a little bit of your pristine white.
[02:28:35] Martae Rayless:
Wait. You said Marcus? Who's Marcus?
[02:28:38] allen marcus:
Alan Marcus. Oh. Marcus Allen. Yes. Oh, okay. I spelled Alan, and I didn't read okay. Alright. As a as a high value male, I I use a regal, European sort of name, easily pronounced by women of all, distinctions around the world, the globe. You know? And and being a high value man amongst other high value men is raising my value right now tonight by having this conversation and enduring
[02:29:03] Unknown:
through to to to Yes. Correct. Yeah. I know. Not a word. You're dying to know, Marcus.
[02:29:09] allen marcus:
Again, you know, that's that's where the the open market sets the price. We're in the price discovery phase, I would say. Slutty. Minimum minimum bid minimum bid is at least at minimum bid starts at 2 Bitcoin.
[02:29:26] Unknown:
That's to that's to take that's to auction you off. They just want Right. I want a preview. Just a shirtless Marcus. Okay.
[02:29:34] Martae Rayless:
Crazy. Because I I mean, well
[02:29:37] allen marcus:
I I understand that. This you we Marte immediately understood the idea of the meat market male economy. And this this is what we're this is what I'm experiencing for the first time. Auctioning. How does it feel to be a thing now? A materialistic item now? It's like you said it's feel pretty masculine. Well, I I You're being auctioned off the highest bidder there, Marcus. Well, this you know, I've been on the auction block for a while. I haven't been around the block. You know, let's make that clear. I like my blocks to be cheese. I like aged cheddar. This is a great gift. Dowries are very important, this type of thing. So, I mean, I can provide too. No. No. No. No. I I like to be provided for as well. So I like to give the women and the men and everyone in the audience an opportunity to be a provider. We we do have a super chat method on the boulders bedroom and boulders in YouTube channel. We wanna thank everybody who's who's helped us meet our monthly goal already. We're gonna now discover that we are even higher value mail by the value that's being provided back through all the chats. I know, Marty, you've had a a long run with us, and I know I know you're getting hungry. You gotta get your macros in, your proteins. I I hear you say Marty, but can I get some justice? Can I hear you say my name right one time?
I'm from Minnesota. How do how do we say it? Say it for me.
[02:30:53] Martae Rayless:
Oh, so the onus is on me. Okay. Martay?
[02:30:56] Unknown:
Marte. He's a he's a minute. Oh, he said it right. He's he's a minute. So now you're more than okay. Good. I'm convinced now. I remain convinced. There you go. I value you. I I try to
[02:31:08] allen marcus:
yes. Yes. Yes. I I you know, I try to speak in my own way and and be genuine to myself. So what I'm gonna say not to go Marte? Marte.
[02:31:17] Martae Rayless:
Marte. Yeah. Rhymes rhyme.
[02:31:19] Unknown:
That's too much list for me. Rhymes at Marte. Has to be made in Florida.
[02:31:24] allen marcus:
It rhymes with the Parte part
[02:31:29] Martae Rayless:
parte party Parte too much list for me. My estrogen's rising right now. Let's let's keep it close to Canada, your a's get real long.
[02:31:37] Unknown:
Oh. A's sound get long in Canada.
[02:31:41] Martae Rayless:
Alright, guys. Well, that's about my time. I appreciate you guys having me up to have some good discourse. I don't run from discourse. I don't run from debates. I've literally had, like I don't think that there's been any debates I've ever ran from. I don't know. I haven't I I think that's so here's the thing. I think this boils down to just a good conversation of fellows that just got together in a room at best, and this was good. I mean, I wouldn't really consider this a debate. I would just say, hey. We just had a meeting of the minds and you know? But I think that this is generally how discourse should happen even without a moment. That. I would say there was pushback. I did experience pushback. No. That's that's what I'm talking about. Deliberating dog face thing. It's a little more of a deliberation. There was a fraction of a push, but, yeah, I would say it may be a deliberation maybe if you wanna call it that.
[02:32:29] Unknown:
We have no issue coming in, brother. It was a it was a it was a gas, and we enjoyed every bit of it, including the fiery bits.
[02:32:37] Martae Rayless:
Thank you so much to the dome. I like the fiery bits. That's my favorite.
[02:32:42] Unknown:
Yeah. We would we would love to have you back on. We will we can, definitely find, we're aligned on a lot of things. You know, I give I give pushback and shit, but I don't mind the ortho bros. I really the world that they represent Yeah. Well I've got disagreements, but, like, I like Jim Bob, Genuinely, I think he's a I think he's a good guy. They you know, I I don't think that I think the world that they want is more similar to my what the world that I would want than what certainly than what is going on now. But I also think that that's a borrowing of Germanic traditions and that that's not found in Christian tradition, and that's why it's it's gone. I think that you guys don't understand that the Germanic, the Odin is our heritage.
And and it that return to heritage does need to happen. I agree.
[02:33:39] Martae Rayless:
Well, I think that we can agree to disagree, and I love the discourse. My favorite parts during this whole discussion were when we did disagree and when things got fiery. That's my favorite. I I will show up every time. If you guys can bring that, I promise I will return. My favorite part wasn't the part where we agreed and we're all connected and brothers. My favorite part was when we met at a crossroads and we had to figure stuff out. I think that's my best part. I think that you like this too, and I like this, and I would return back again too for this, for more discourse, actually. So it's my favorite. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Please tell everybody where to find you. Again, tell them what your YouTube channel's called and everything and any upcoming events you got. So my YouTube channel is called On the Edge. You can find me at, the real mighty underscore the real mighty mouse on Instagram and mighty Marte on x. I just had a debate with Destiny, the Coomer gremlin last week. I so I had two debate channels for Hugh, and I whooped his ass. And I think that he needs his ass thoroughly whooped again. I think I'm gonna meet him again sometime before this year and destroy him again. I love debating these these degenerates because I think that they're they're pushing an agenda in society that should be destroyed at every turn, nook, and cranny, and I think that they should meet confrontation by our end by good men. Without good men, I think we have a society that's gone a a array.
And I think that we do need pushback against the agenda that fights our children and tries to indoctrinate them. Absent any pushback, we allow this. And men, I think that we should congregate together and fight degeneracy together on one accord, whether or not you're a Odinist or whether or not you're a Christian. I think we can see eye to eye, and we know what degeneracy looks like and what indoctrinates our children and what we don't want. I think that we're universal and allied on this front. And I do believe, Marcus, you agree with me on this too. So I agree with this esteem. I promise. I'm grateful for our, our little spat tonight, our little, deliberating. It was good. I enjoyed it. I look forward to more deliberating in a discourse with you guys in the future. So Thank you very much. Much, brother. You have an excellent night.
Yep. Take care.
[02:35:52] allen marcus:
So we thank everyone again for helping us meet our financial goals, being a value for value, providing value in conversation, receiving it back now that we are allowed to on YouTube.
[02:36:06] Unknown:
That that is absolutely amazing. Thank you guys so much. We got two members already. Like I said, let me know what you guys think of the, little icons that I made and stuff. We'll make new ones. And for our giant $100 donor, we will make a a special video that we will play next week. We didn't expect that from, at this point in time. So and to to to let you guys know what we're gonna do is is we've been operating off a Steve Streamyard, which Steve doesn't mind. Steve's absolutely the one of the most generous, amazing people that you'll ever meet.
And, he doesn't mind at all. He's if this isn't something from him, this is, the way it is now because it's stream Steve's Streamyard, only he can do a bunch of things. Like, this whole thing where the it looked like we started at, like, 03:00. That's because Steve had to come in and set up a link for him so I could set up my link, but it was based off of that, so I couldn't set it up correctly. And then when when I go or Marcus goes, like, Marcus has been on other debates, and I've been on other debates. This way, we can bring those to you guys and whatnot. And also, we can do some special things for the members and whatnot.
So we need to have our own deliberating dog face dude. So that was first on the list, and we, the goal was to make enough to at least do that, and and we have, and you guys are fucking amazing. Wow. I'm kinda blown away.
[02:37:42] allen marcus:
Appreciate everything. Yeah. It's been a wonderful night. Finally, feel like we got in a a debate. Felt like a debate, having some pushback.
[02:37:54] Unknown:
And and I thought he was a good guy. I enjoyed talking to him. And when I saw him before, I thought he'd be a a fun to talk to. So that was a lot of fun. I'm glad we finally got to get that in for you guys. It's funny how it went sideways for, like, the first hour. Like, well, this is not at all what we were gonna do, but but it's but it was still a good time.
[02:38:12] allen marcus:
This is this is what men do. When when men get together, we find our commonalities, and we joke around, and we rib on each other. And then once we've built that trust, now we feel like we could say, oh, well, there's this one thing I like to push a little harder on. And and doing the approach where we we just sort of and, you know, mock people and say, you know, all these terrible things about them to sort of sort of build up a challenge. Well, that doesn't really work. It doesn't mean it was a challenge. It's just like, well, k. See you later, loser and blocks. People people walk. They don't engage in that sort of conversation.
[02:38:45] Unknown:
And understand. I don't think you're not a man if you don't live in the city. It's it's not. That's you know, let's just push it. You gotta when you're doing that, you gotta get take some audacious positions and push around a little bit. That makes it, you know, makes it fun, keeps it spicy.
[02:39:02] allen marcus:
But but you but can you be a metrosexual and and live in a cabin alone somewhere? I mean, you have to be in the city. If you're metrosexual,
[02:39:09] Unknown:
you're probably scared of mice and shit.
[02:39:13] allen marcus:
Yeah. That's, I guess we'll have to explore that further. See the men who are afraid of mice. So But they're probably afraid of deliberation as well.
[02:39:23] Unknown:
Well, we will try. Steve's got two people coming in next week. Mhmm. We're actually gonna have a double debate. Oh, okay. It's gonna be, and Marcus and I are gonna be across the table from each other. Steve's got, one guy coming in, that's gonna take the side of Christianity, and then Weezy is coming in, and Weezy and I are, gonna take the side of not Christianity. Mhmm. So we should have a nice, nice spicy one again for you guys next week. I have a lot of fun. We really look forward to it. It's gonna be a good time. Love you guys.
Well The dancing was of the devil. That rhythmic activity was something that would lead me to Satan. That does seem pretty, like, to fly in the face of what you're saying. I I hear what you're saying. I grew up in a Pentecostal church as well too. Okay. Like, I would have a air God. What was your church? I had a yeah. COG. Same thing. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I knew My hometown held camp meeting, bro. We the I'm from Anderson, Indiana. We had all of the churches of the Church of God come to our town every year so that we could have a massive revival every year. You make drums. That's the church I grew up in. So I might step in here and say we have we have three Pentecostals on the panel, one Odinus who's waiting very patiently.
[00:00:46] allen marcus:
I'd like to then take the question that was asked again and maybe maybe rephrase it because, Marte, you asked the question about morality and purpose. So then I will ask both of you, Marte and Balderson, is the purpose of this life to become a more moral man, or is the purpose of this life to learn how to love your fellow man, to reduce your enemies, to make more loving connections to other people? Is the purpose of this life to not have any enemies?
[00:01:25] Unknown:
I'll
[00:01:27] Martae Rayless:
I'll say this. You can't avoid not having enemies because as long as there's a good, there's going to be an evil. If you have a dark, there's gonna be light. So you you're gonna have a contrast, and the reason why we have evil and if you never had this, you would never have any glory. So this is the thing that we have as far as, like, constructs and ideals that we have. So as far as Christian ethics, I think that it is good to become more Christ like, although I will agree with Benjamin. It's almost like mission impossible has been presented to us. There's it's, like, a standard that's almost impossible to, fulfill or maintain, but that's the beauty of this. We're fighting our human nature. And if you look at human nature, this is the question that it did get answered with, when I asked Steve, like, what is the bad? What is the negative that I'm talking about? And I think that if he talked about these negatives, I I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but I think that if I could revert this to my understanding and say the negatives, these would be like our own personal desires and things that go, lean towards selfishness, robbing our man of certain, attributes and things like this. I think society, we see this right now in in, Israel and right now in America. So we're fighting this. So when you talk about enemies and we don't wanna create enemies, it's inevitable. We're gonna create enemies because as long as we're fighting for good, what's going to be the opposition? There will always be this. It'll constantly exist. So I think martyrdom is one thing that's we could see in our saints, in our our spiritual fathers that we have. They we have martyrs. People that didn't have a dollar value or any amount. They weren't materialist at all. They're willing to die for a greater good in in pursuing something that's beyond them. They're They're willing to lay their life down for their man, things like this. So we have this in Christ in them, but I do wanna hear Benjamin's take on this.
[00:03:08] Unknown:
Yeah. So where the bads coming gonna come in is that nothing you do is gonna matter except for accepting Christ, which is as unaccountable as anything I could imagine. It doesn't matter how much I'm I tell people I could in my heart of hearts of every bit of me, love Odin and be on team Odin. And if I am a piece of shit person, guess where I'm going? I'm going to the bad place where you're torn apart by wolves for fucking until the next cycle. Like, that that's it's not gonna be fun. It doesn't matter what I what it matters how I act in this life. And it's that unaccountability that leads us to this very unaccountable society we live in now where nobody has any account for any of the actions.
And and and, heathen cosmology and Odin's cosmology, they're even the gods are not are not free from the subject of their actions. If they make fucked up actions, fucked up results are gonna come. Odin's very specific in the about if you do this, like, despite how Hollywood portrays Germanics, they actually did not drink and did not drink or did not drink in excess. Because Odin teaches if you and and this is one of the most prevalent things throughout the entire throughout the entire Havamal that if you drink too much, you will get yourself in trouble. You'll lose your head. It's all gonna be bad. I did this once. I and then I ended up being the cap captive of a giant, and and there's an entire saga behind it. And it all starts because Odin went and got drunk and left himself vulnerable.
And so the the idea is is whatever your actions are here are gonna carry you into whatever place you get taken to in the afterlife. There's numerous a a pantheon of places to go if you're a decent person, a pantheon of them because it's gonna suit you. I'm a farmer. Where do you think I'm gonna go? Where the farmers go? Because farmers are very much needed for any society. If you gotta fight gonna be a fighter, there's a place for the fighters. There's one choice for the people that are the fucking oath breakers, the the the friend killers, the things like that.
And as you pointed out, Tyr, when he because he was the biggest betrayer because he was Fenrir's friend, his best friend. He lost his sword arm, and because of that, there the the fall of the gods was doomed because this this head of the spear was cut off.
[00:06:12] Steve :
Well, we we morality tale in every other religion, by the way.
[00:06:18] Martae Rayless:
Right. But here's the thing, though. When you when you talk about accountability, we have plenty of this. And when you talk about you're not responsible for your decisions, yes, you're very responsible for everything that happens to you. But the thing that Christianity well, when you talk about Christ god? It's not according to god? You didn't god didn't do the good things? Well well, here's the thing though that I'm gonna say is we have repentance. So, I think a lot of times we tell people, like, no. You can't do certain things and things are usually black and white. No. It's not that simple. That's why we have, like, spiritual fathers that you could talk to. We have, like, two thousand years of church history where we could refer to, like, in that postalic secession, which I don't think that Odinism really has. 1800.
[00:06:57] Unknown:
September. Eighteen hundred years.
[00:07:01] Martae Rayless:
Well, I would say too because we're talking about Ethiopian history too. So you we you have to add all that. So here's the thing that I would say.
[00:07:08] Unknown:
We do have to claim Ethiopian,
[00:07:11] Steve :
by the way. What's that? The the Orthodox are claiming Ethiopian tradition for Christianity? Well, I'm just gonna I don't usually hear that argument for I'd like I'm I'm open to accepting it. I really am. I am it's just I think there's a a new
[00:07:30] Unknown:
And and by the way, Owen's been around longer.
[00:07:34] Steve :
I but regardless, no. That's that's a new thing for me. It it is. So please, like, I'm yeah. Let me let me hear about it.
[00:07:42] Martae Rayless:
Well, first of all, let me let me, I I have to actually for me to be, honest here with you guys, I'm a catechumen. I'm not like so when you talk about Orthodox Christians, I'm operating underneath a handicap. And when I say this, Alan, I need you also listen to this. When I'm operating underneath the handicap, I can't really do, like, an exegesis of strip scripture and then do a deep dive on Orthodox history like that because but here's the thing, though. I don't think I was really, transparent about this because I was at school, and I was being I was being messaged. I never also turned out debates too. That may be a vice of mine. Right? So let me be forthcoming. So I can't do, like, a exegesis completely because what's going to happen is that if I have a slight fumble or, or or at least something that's a little off, the ortho bros will come for me, and I will get I will get talked to, pulled to the side. Ortho bros.
[00:08:38] Unknown:
Come for us, you chicken shit little bitches.
[00:08:43] Steve :
But here's the thing, though. Liberal agenda
[00:08:45] Unknown:
is Christian unaccountability. Fight me.
[00:08:50] Martae Rayless:
We we do have accountability
[00:08:52] Unknown:
in Christianity. But here's the thing, though. What gets you to heaven? What gets you to heaven, bro?
[00:08:57] Martae Rayless:
What gets me to heaven is my heart. And not only this, but my spirit What's your heart gotta do?
[00:09:03] Unknown:
Repentant.
[00:09:04] Martae Rayless:
Being a repentant person. Yes. What's your heart gotta do? One thing. One thing. What is it? What is it? I have to give my life to Christ. I have to submit to Christ. It is.
[00:09:16] Unknown:
There it is. Doesn't matter how bad of a piece of shit you are. That one thing is your key. Guess what? That's not a secret in my people. You can't be a piece of shit. Here's the problem with the good places for it. Here's the problem that you're going to run into.
[00:09:35] Martae Rayless:
When you have something that's very, I would say, when you don't have a pathway for anybody to change, what good would redemption be? Be? What good would any baptism be on your end if you have that? It's like, if I was really that person redemption. There's no opportunity for change on that end. That doesn't really make any sense there. You think I haven't done shitty things in the overall
[00:09:56] Unknown:
in the overall calculation of my life? That's why every one of them has, like, the whole your heart in a in a feather on the scale. Because if you've lived a decent life, you know you're a decent person. It's not that I haven't done fucked up shit. I've I've lied. I've betrayed, you know, done things against my friends. Very and let me tell you what, it did it wasn't cool for me anytime. That's why people always say I'm strict as shit. Like, they you know, like, it's like living with the drill sergeant because all I I I learned real quick never to make those mistakes again because it haunted me. It haunted me. And because of that, I act as a good, very honorable person. And because of me doing making that choice because I could make a different choice. I could've kept doing those other things, and I didn't. We all go through that, and even the gods make mistakes. But if you continue to be that shitty person, that's where you're gonna pay the penalty. Not if you go and say, oh, but I love Odin.
[00:10:58] Martae Rayless:
Odin's gonna be like, who's big? It's perfect like that, though. Okay? It doesn't work like that. You can't just up and say, I turned my life over to Christ. No. This has to be If if if the day if if I was a a a a homicidal That's that's not fair, though, because according to every event of that before I died, I gave my life to Christ, and I truly felt it in my heart. Do I Doesn't work like that. Doesn't work like that. The only exception we have is a thief on the cross. He's the only exception I can ever name. So it's very hard. So it doesn't really have him, bro? It it doesn't really work like that, though. It doesn't really but
[00:11:32] Steve :
it it just Every church, it works like that, though. Everyone That's the problem.
[00:11:37] Martae Rayless:
You're talking about denominations after a schism. People made up their own stuff and cherry picked. You're talking about this. Like, I could talk about the red pill community, but which one? That's the problem, though. Let me ask you a very direct, very specific problem you're running into. It's the same problem. Integration. You have to be a Christian. Hang on. Let me let me just
[00:11:58] Steve :
I'm I'm a little I'm a little high We hear Steve clearly. That.
[00:12:03] Martae Rayless:
All of a sudden a little social like You're sure you're not Wayne's World being a little high. This is crazy. Go ahead.
[00:12:09] Steve :
But, like, a little bit. Just a way. This is how I talk. Are you shaming me?
[00:12:16] Unknown:
I just want
[00:12:18] Martae Rayless:
I'm not shaming you. Is that what I'm doing? No. I'm not just No. I don't know what it is. A little high I could get way higher. I could. I promise.
[00:12:27] Steve :
I'm just you know, I'm at a a a, like, tiny little working buzz right now, but I'm trying to get my head around the fact that the promise of Christianity, the way that my pastor grandfather taught me was that you could have deathbed confessionals and and redemptions. And the way that I always posed it to him was, so you're telling me that you can go on a rampage of sin for years or decades. And at the precise moment that you know you're gonna die, you're gonna be like, never mind. I love God. And he was like, well, that's what the book says.
And so if it's what the book says, then, yeah, that's kind of how it's gonna be. And I was like, what?
[00:13:26] Martae Rayless:
That's weird. I don't know. Sola scriptura, what you're talking about. It's just going by the book. So if you think about this, which came first, Christianity or the Bible? Christianity came first. Right?
[00:13:39] Steve :
Right. The Bible is later on
[00:13:41] Martae Rayless:
first. Church tradition, everything else. Right. So when you talk about That's probably a separate debate. We'll we'll focus on It is. But right now, if you are on a deathbed and you're waiting and you're just gonna gonna get into Constantine, Marcus. You don't get to put bumpers up. If you're using this as a life raft, it's like a it's like a call like, you know how you use a lifeline in, who wants to be a millionaire? If you're using this and say, I always have this. I could just do this.
[00:14:09] Unknown:
I can't say a preconceived bias that he doesn't actually believe it in his heart. I said, if he if he in his heart Well, I can't presume this. Things he did takes Jesus into his heart, becomes a true born again Christian, dies a week later, does he go to the good place? Well, here's here's where I think we're going. Will decide, though. We we can't we don't even know this. He would not say this. If the dude would not assume that he would not
[00:14:39] Unknown:
not. Well, the person that's making this decision,
[00:14:41] Martae Rayless:
he doesn't even know if he's gonna go to heaven. So we can't determine that. We don't know his heart. We don't know how the Oreos can make None none of us do this. Determinative judgment
[00:14:51] Steve :
about every aspect of every life from birth up until death, but the point at which the Orthodox stopped making predetermined judgment
[00:15:02] Martae Rayless:
is What do you mean by predetermined judgments?
[00:15:05] Steve :
What I what I keep getting what I keep hearing from my friends in the orthodox community, which I agree with, by the way, is that we're allowed to judge. And it's always the rebuttal to well, the Bible says judge not unless you no. We're supposed to judge. That's how we make a logical determination
[00:15:27] Martae Rayless:
of your Do you understand your aspect all of that. So you can make all of those judgments up until the point of death, and then at the point of death, you're like, I don't know. We're talking about a translation error. So when people talk about judgments, we could think about this. So if we think about the logos, which is like just logic, if we logically think about these transition translations if you have a circle, like, let's say me, Ben, Alan, and Steve were in a circle. Right? And then there was something from There's four of us. We're in a square. Right. Four of us in a square were coming well, I mean, what if we were like this with our hands? Right? We can make a circle. Right? Listen. Listen, Marte. I've been in prayer circles.
[00:16:05] allen marcus:
I've never been in prayer squares, but I like to try it sometime. I'm open to the idea.
[00:16:10] Martae Rayless:
Hey. I'm gonna keep it with the circle. But like I was saying, what if we were in this this circle and we presented prevented riffraff coming from coming in? Like, let's say this guy touched kids, and not only that, not only was he not repentant, but he said, I'm going to do this again. We were we're how are we bad from not making a judgment from saying you can't come in and infiltrate our circles unless you change your ways or show us a good pattern? I think not only does this logically make sense, but what you're comparing this to is the judgment of saying where we're going in the afterlife, where we're gonna go, where our soul's gonna go. That's a different form of judgment. So if we think about these distinctions, we need to make a distinction in in error. So if you're gonna be on the deathbed and you're gonna say, well, I'm just gonna use this as a lifeline, we can't make that determination. The orthodox can't make this determination. I don't think anybody can. This is like a pathologic
[00:17:00] Unknown:
I I tell you I tell you what, a person lives their life a piece of shit. In a week before they die, they go, I I I love Odin. Odin's gonna fucking wipe his boot with that dude. Like, that's it's never gonna go well.
[00:17:16] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But here's the here's the other side of this. Do you how often do you think the distinction happens where somebody's about to die and they say, well, I just turned my life over to god because now they're in a prison. They threw their whole life away. Do you honestly think that most cases, people are just saying, oh, I got a free pass, get out of jail free card. It doesn't really work like this, man. We're not working to make a determination that only the divine would be able to make, though. Like, that's Have you been to prison? Have you been to for us to make. We don't make that determination at all. None of us make that determination. But you're a spark right now. Change
[00:17:53] Unknown:
right before right when they're getting ready to die.
[00:17:56] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But we are talking about different denominations, people just having their own thoughts and theories. But to me, I denominations.
[00:18:04] Steve :
Like, if I'm a a a shitty orthodox Christian, but I'm a really good Protestant, does then like, how how does that, like I mean, how does that factor in? I'm and I I don't know. I might be asking double quotes. I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm really not. I'm getting practical terms, it means can I be a member of a Baptist church?
[00:18:29] allen marcus:
Can I be a card carrying Lutheran? And can I be a catechumen at the same time? So I have all my major Christian denominations covered just in case one gets me to heaven faster. There's a fast fast enough. We can't do this. Because what you're doing is you're fast track lane? Yeah. We we can't do this. So the problem with this is is, like, let's say I don't know if you're familiar with Calvinism.
[00:18:48] Martae Rayless:
Oh, yeah. Calvinism would mesh well with, any other form of Christianity. Predeterminism. Predeterminism doesn't mesh well. Like, this would the LDS think they're Christians. So it's like, if you're talking about Christian, it's like, remember the movie Civil War? Which American are you? So we could think about this in terms of Christianity. And if you think about Christians, it's like, yeah. This can't this isn't gonna mesh well because the ideology is gonna be different. And I'm like, damn, that by the nature you gotta you guys gotta understand
[00:19:15] Unknown:
when you guys are like, yeah. But there was a schism. By the nature of a schism, that meant that you both came from the same time period, and you just disagreed about some shit. Right? That's gonna happen. You have no more you have no more claim to authenticity through duration than they do. They're they're they're exactly as old as you are by the very part of the schism.
[00:19:36] Martae Rayless:
If we have a unchanging standard and we didn't we didn't go away from this, it's like, if we look at the have an unchanging standard. You had you've had an ever developing standard.
[00:19:46] Unknown:
In the no. No. We haven't. It hasn't changed. We haven't changed church tradition, the community of Absolutely. It has. You may you have different you have different teachers and saints that you each choose, and you're like, yeah. I like this one. Oh, I didn't like this teaching of it. There's absolutely disagreements. There's there's entire books that are nothing but you guys' church higher ups having basically, legally's arguments about things.
[00:20:12] Martae Rayless:
Well, that's because we can have conversation and discourse. Any
[00:20:17] Unknown:
changing.
[00:20:18] Martae Rayless:
But, no, we're not ever changing. If you go to any church, like, I'll give you an example if you let me finish it. Like, your church
[00:20:23] Unknown:
at the true inception where it was considered a government thing. Told you I'm gonna bring Constantine in it, motherfucker. Then You're right. That that that at the inception of your church was called to by the Roman emperor who made that church happen. And there was already massive disagreements during that exact meeting, including where there was enough people that they even excommunicated and kicked them out of the countries, people that didn't come to the agreement
[00:20:55] Martae Rayless:
on the ones that ended. And those ones are exactly as old and as and as valid. Can we do this one point at a time? Because I I I know you're bringing up three different points. At least let me address one at a time. Right? I mean, I would pop back opponents and debates doing this, and that would be easy w for me if I did this. But I'd like to have a little bit more good faith here. So let's bring it back to, like, the churches here in America. If you go to any, I would say any parish, you go to one, you go to another, and it's just gallop.
[00:21:25] Steve :
One one person still Alderson.
[00:21:27] Martae Rayless:
Well, one person that goes to a church, a spiritual father, he he would agree with this church. He would agree with the Greek Orthodox Church. He would agree with this Orthodox Church. It's all the same and it's unchanging. So when I talk about this standard, even today, we could see this. It's an unchanging standard. What you're talking about is something else we can get to later on. But right now, there is no unchanging standard. We could trace this back through apostolic succession, and it goes right on up. That's what I'm referring to.
[00:21:56] Unknown:
They make the exact same claim, and they they are correct because there was a schism, and they come from the exact same time. They were just a disagreement. And there was disagreements even when the church was put together as a church by Constantine. At that time, it was Arian, which is really funny because all the, you know, the Church wasn't put together by Constantine.
[00:22:17] Martae Rayless:
Yes. It was. Put together by the disciples. And so here the who what is the Constantine
[00:22:23] Unknown:
even had to put have a guy threatened to be locked in prison because he wouldn't show up. He forced that on his dime and then show and then and then went to the actual here the actual council himself.
[00:22:37] Martae Rayless:
What is the what is the church do? What what do you when you say the church, what do you mean?
[00:22:42] Unknown:
When the church was made an official thing, before that, Christianity was a bunch of was an ex a a whole bunch of small cults that that practiced it in quite in quite very different ways. And and and the question. It had different books, and that's why that council was called in order to canonize your religion. That was that was forced by Constantine because the Christians amongst their different tribes or cults were fighting so vigorously in his empire that he said, I do not want this anymore. We're gonna canonize this. He forced a a bunch of your deacons or whatever the fuck they're called, to come together in this council, including threatening to jail some of them because they refuse to go.
At the council, they canonized the first couple books, and and I a lot of you guys will disagree about that, but they started the canonization process. Because what is it? Ether? That's, it's a girl's name. That was canonized, at the council of Nicaea. Even though that's not part of the traditional bible, it's considered canonical.
[00:23:54] allen marcus:
This is part of the answer to the question.
[00:23:56] Martae Rayless:
Question, though. You were, like, blowing right past it. Can you answer my question, though? Can you tell me what the what is the church to you? Hold on. Hold on. There's the ATV going by.
[00:24:07] Unknown:
Sorry. I live out in the mountains.
[00:24:10] Martae Rayless:
I hear I hear you. So when I asked you what the church what what what does that definitionally mean to you? What are you referring to when you say the church?
[00:24:19] Unknown:
The thing that the the thing they they it's when there was a canonization of Christian of Christiandom. That's the council of Christendom. Mean, though? What what does that mean? That means that the tribes the different tribes of Christianity with their different various, practices and and whatnot, we're all forced to sit into one into a room and be made into one thing. Now since that one thing, that's why that's why it's called a schism. Because that that from that point until the schism point, there was one church. That's what Constantine wanted.
[00:24:58] Martae Rayless:
But I wanna hear what this is. Like, you're telling me what happened. I need to hear what definitionally what a church is to you. That's what I'm still I'm still not getting his name.
[00:25:07] Unknown:
The church of Christ or whatever it was. Whatever you would call the original entity.
[00:25:13] Martae Rayless:
But when you're saying that is, what is that? What that's what I'm still trying to get at from you. Alan, you understand what I'm saying. Right? Can I just want that? Are you are you
[00:25:24] allen marcus:
asking in in terms of what is the church? Is it a building? Is it a piece of is it a piece of paper? Is it whatever the agreement of of of customs
[00:25:34] Unknown:
and books. It wasn't that at the first council, it wasn't the complete canonization process, but that was the beginning of the canonization process where they started picking which books that they were gonna either take out or keep in, which customs they were gonna take out and keep in until it became one unified thing.
[00:25:56] Martae Rayless:
So then you should And this is specifically what So the church is a process of legalese to you. Is that what you're saying? It's a it's a legalese in process. That's what the church is to you? No. It's the church would be when there was a canonization,
[00:26:10] Unknown:
caught fucking cauterization of disparate cultures because that's the thing that, did not happen in my culture. So the church is So that's that's why it never became a unified force like it like that because it was never cauterized into a into a unified thing. And so each side has its pluses and minuses. The the fact that you have a council in ICIA means that you have Canon books, and so you can say things like, oh, well, the book of Enoch's nonsense. That's why they threw it out. You know, shit like that.
[00:26:46] Martae Rayless:
The the, hoping on this, but I I so the church hold on. We're because we're I'm trying to fill figure out what your definition is. So is the church canonization to you?
[00:26:55] Unknown:
Because I'm really trying to know this point what definitionally a church is to you. It's what the Christian church when it became one unified church, there was a canonization. Before that, there was it was just the spirit tribes.
[00:27:12] Martae Rayless:
So a church is a Not in your a church is a process to you. That's what it this is. It's unified
[00:27:18] Unknown:
it's a unified it's a unified belief system that's bigger than a tribal system.
[00:27:25] Martae Rayless:
So the church is a unified belief system. That's what that is too. That's your definition of what a church is. It it's a unified belief system. Yes.
[00:27:34] Unknown:
Of customs, beliefs.
[00:27:37] Martae Rayless:
So so And it's bigger than a tribe.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
So this You guys are bigger. You guys you guys took over a fairly vast area, and so you were you were trying to incorporate a bunch of very disparate groups into one group. At the at the time of the first council, I believe that, Arian, was the big thing that they were trying to get rid of whether whether,
[00:28:01] Martae Rayless:
That's not what a church is. Alan, I'll even I'll even I'll I'll tell I'll talk to Alan so that way you could see the example I'm gonna refer to. So, Alan, when it says where there are one or two of you gathered, is that not definitionally what a church is to you that from your understanding as well?
[00:28:18] allen marcus:
So from what you just said, it sounds like you're talking about more of a spiritual system, a fellowship, a gathering of the people. I hear Molestman talking about, the unification of a belief system into a formalization of documents. I think that in in many instances of asking the question, what is a church, the complete definition will include that it is all of the history. It is all of the documents. It is all of the pastolic succession. It is all the the beliefs. It is all of the history. That's all under church. I mean, you understand when you say that that you that you understand that you're absolutely then a polygamist
[00:28:55] Unknown:
or not a polygamist.
[00:28:56] Martae Rayless:
Apart from that. Yeah. Sorry. Wrong term. My wrong term. It's another debate, man. It's it's on some other debate.
[00:29:05] Unknown:
Sorry. Sorry. My my bad. Hefatism. No. Hefatism. Hefatism. Hefatism.
[00:29:10] allen marcus:
Polytheist God. That many many gods exist is recognizing many gods. A polytheist recognizing that there are other gods. So in the definition of church,
[00:29:23] Unknown:
what part of what got got done in the in the canonization is that polytheism got taken out of it. You understand that? Right? Satisfied So so if everybody that before canonization, if every one of those tribes was believing Christianity, because you understand in the canonization process, there was give and take between all these different belief systems that all came became into one Christiandom.
[00:29:47] Steve :
That wasn't a monetization.
[00:29:49] Unknown:
And so that that that was that was. Absolutely was. They had votes on things and said, we're gonna we're gonna do this this way. We're we're gonna believe that this way.
[00:30:00] Martae Rayless:
So it the what we did was we wanted to find out because during that time, there was forgeries that happened. There are other things that happened. Right? So you want to figure out, like, how to translate something, what the translation is, what you believe in. I think that when you come together like, let's say you had Odinism come together, and there was this treachery and there was lies. Well, a lie could be a truth to somebody else, and they came together and they had to decide which one was the truth and is a lie can a lie actually be a truth? If somebody came together and stabbed Fenris in the back, they could say, well, no. That could be a truth. How is that not a lie? Two people come together for a council. That's not different belief systems as far as different religions and sects coming together. That's one belief system. They're just figuring out, like, what is the truth? We're talking about semantics here, and that's all that was. There there there is there is That's what I'm referring. Arian controversy, whether Christ is even actually of a of the godhead in any way, shape, or form.
[00:30:55] Unknown:
The the the there's all there was all kinds of different viewing. Like I said, you guys We we agreed to a foundational
[00:31:03] Steve :
doctrine of the church to that was semantics? Because I I thought that that a lot of that is where the foundational doctrine of the church stem forward and what people to this day still uphold as
[00:31:20] allen marcus:
an ultimate truth, but we've reduced that to that was some old people in the desert talking about semantics? Let me let me ask the question directly. Is it called the word of God and do Christians follow the word of God and are what semantics, logic, words, logos, all of this in a book, in a document. So you have the Bible. Is this what you're Oh, that is extremely important. Yes. So bring that up. The Bible wasn't even a thing until the until the councils.
[00:31:48] Martae Rayless:
There was a whole bunch of different stories that were done until The Bible was a thing. We had illiterate people during the time of the apostles. And the reason what we had was word-of-mouth, which was a tradition. This was how things were passed down. And we had so but the problem with your end, when we talk about Odinism, sagas were romanticized. It's been proven. I actually wrote a book called the female warrior fallacy where we go into Celtic origin, that Viking origins as far as, like, the lore and sagas. A lot of this wasn't even really true that happened during the time. So a lot of these sagas were kinda like heartfelt stories to comfort people during times of, I would say times of turmoil, times of stress, things like this. So a lot of sagas weren't even true. We can do a deep dive on this too, but that's the thing, though. If we go back in church history And you read the old testament.
But that's the thing though. If we go back to the old the old testament. Well, the thing that well, we can talk about, the assurance shroud. It almost debunks a lot of other shit. You can I can't even recognize it? Don't even try that. That is fucking laughable, bro. We've got anything to let you know. Just so you know,
[00:32:50] Unknown:
Marcus and I are serious occultists, and we've been and I'm and I'm, like, the biggest conspiracy shows, like, with 100 with fucking, like, Freeman Fly, who had millions of viewers. I've been on their shows. Just so you understand, you're in the deep end of the pool with that one. You really shouldn't take us there. Yeah. Fucking hilarious.
[00:33:12] Unknown:
Yeah. It'll go.
[00:33:14] allen marcus:
The debate of, you know, the, the literature qualities of written tradition from the from the oral tradition to the written tradition writing things down. I think that's a separate debate. Well, let's just kinda table that and move to the next point. Did you have another point that you wanted to address from Balderson,
[00:33:30] Martae Rayless:
Marte? Well, as far as this, I think that we haven't really reconciled, like, the morality thing. Like, where you derive morality from if we talked about this. Like, I haven't gotten that. So as far as, like, you know, we could talk about stabbing people in the back and everything. You've justified this. And I think the amount of justification
[00:33:48] Unknown:
just really
[00:33:50] Martae Rayless:
and it's like, well, there's guys speak to him.
[00:33:53] Unknown:
Does God do nasty things to his enemies?
[00:33:56] Martae Rayless:
What do you is it okay?
[00:33:59] Steve :
Was was every Christian Let him let him finish the man. Let him let him make the point.
[00:34:07] Martae Rayless:
So that's the thing, though. It's like, I I can understand, like, maybe, you know, some people don't do debates, and I I totally get it. I totally get it. It sounds like a really rusty system that I'm really working with right now. I'm usually used to doing formal debates. And I I appreciate you, Alec, for trying to moderate as best as you can. I trust you. We're we're we're trying to reconcile
[00:34:26] allen marcus:
the the free flowing sort of Tuesday night. And also the breading
[00:34:32] Unknown:
how hard it is to pick a fight, my friend. We were happy you came on. Do not take Tuesday night. Enthusiasm as lack of appreciation. Yeah. We are
[00:34:43] Martae Rayless:
rusty. Nobody will fight. Ortho Bros are chicken jets. Well, it's it's not that it's not that nobody won't fight. It's just that when I do get into fights, people aren't really and I'm not doubting anybody's competency level here, but there's a lot of things that happen. Like, you would you'll you would say, well, you gish Gallup. No. You actually gish Gallup when it goes to this. Like, you'll give run on, like, six different points, and I can't remember all six of them, but I'm forced to remember one to address it. Like, that's kind of, like, a tough thing to do, for for instance. Like, usually, the moderator would come in and be like, hold on. Hold on. And I'll say, hold on. Can we stop right there and address this one point? That's typically what would happen. But the reason why I say rusty is, like, I'm allowing this to happen because I'm I'm just I'm kinda more relaxed than I am in usual debates. I'll stop somebody.
So think about how much grace a Christian has on you right now during this whole period. How kind and benevolent of me to be so gracious right now and and just allow you to have the freedom to do what you gotta do. Three Pentecostals
[00:35:42] Steve :
to one Odinist. We're all giving massive amounts of grace here. I I don't know why you would need to carry yours as a banner.
[00:35:54] Martae Rayless:
Well, the reason why I have to point these out is because there's a huge distinction between when I have debates and if I was anybody else and I wasn't this benevolent person that I proclaim myself to be, I wouldn't point it out. I just
[00:36:08] allen marcus:
go ham like I usually do and start checking. It just started stopping like I usually do. But I'm not gonna do that. That's what I'm saying. I would call my this is me calling myself out. This is me, like, that's what I'm doing. Like, you want me to do this. This actually seem like it, but I think there are listeners, and they're very engaged right now. And there's probably a lot of chat, and we've been real Yeah. Ignorant of what is even the conversation we're so focused on on the four of us in our prayer square tonight to figure out, you know, what what is what is a church? What is what is a church? Not to make not to make excuses for my lack of decorum.
[00:36:45] Unknown:
Although in that thing, you are definitely playing coy, pretending like you don't understand what I'm saying because the fact is is before the canonization process, that means that you would have to be a pagan because other people put g ranked Jesus with other things, and they were equally Christian. If you're saying before the canonization process, the tribes that believe vastly different things were all also just Christian. Well, then okay. Well, then you're then you're polytheists.
[00:37:11] Martae Rayless:
Can we can we at least reconcile the the church traditions and unchanged standard that we have? Because we haven't even like, we're literally moving Which is the council in ICU, which is where I'm coming from.
[00:37:23] Unknown:
We're canonization.
[00:37:24] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But hold on, though. Even if there was a canonization that we had, can you tell me how there was a change down through, like, this this this the councils. Right? We had to have councils to put because the Orthodox church did put together the Bible. Can you tell me where this change was after all this?
[00:37:44] Unknown:
Because Every time you had a spizzle, every time you you've changed vast numbers of times. That's why you guys have these really the Orthodox church that's been had. It is of all the of all the Christian denominations has the most, But that's not all. Biggest history of debates when they're trying to figure out how to proceed with a thing. There's changes That's not us, though. Do I know do I know what exact little minute changes you make in your in in your church and in your different, like, you can guarantee that, between then and now, there's different things, like different, customs of, of penance and of, of There isn't.
Things like that that are absolutely different. What you're gonna do is you're gonna telling me that they're still are you telling me they're still taking it and burying people inside of new structures in the wall to consecrate new structures and shit like that? Is that what you're telling me? That you're still doing that
[00:38:46] Martae Rayless:
shit. Can we address one point at a time? So when we go to an unchanging standard, can you point to me where it has changed? And I'm not talking about because what you're doing is you're pointing to other denominations that aren't me. For an example, can you point to mine and say where the
[00:39:03] Unknown:
I'm I'm trying not to hold you to just your thing. I'm just fighting Christianity in general because you said you're not, qualified to fight in your thing, which I get. I get. I'm not, like, trying to make fun of you for that or nothing like that. So I'm just it's not trying to hold you to your to your thing and just talking about Christianity in general and understand that every time since the original since the original, canonization, that every time that there's been a schism, that both parties have equal claim to the heritage.
[00:39:42] Martae Rayless:
So we look at the protestants as the first people that, you know, allow the Catholics as the first protestants because they turned their back. Now while they could say that we turned their back Yeah. They would have an apostolic succession and all that. Right? We looked at an unchanging standard as far as what we believe. I'll the reason why I'm saying we and I'm being really ambiguous is because we all know what I'm talking about. My, my form of Christianity that I'm walking towards. If we look at this as, like, this thing that I'm looking at, where is the change from the apostolic succession all the way down to The Americas right now? Is there any change that you see that you've seen in the last thousand years, five hundred years?
[00:40:27] allen marcus:
Were you both alive for the last thousand years to see these changes with your own eyes?
[00:40:32] Martae Rayless:
I can I can honestly say I wasn't? I wasn't alive. But we have an apostolic session of spiritual fathers who laid hands on other fathers that we could say this, and it's been documented as well too. There there's and there's been no change in tradition.
[00:40:44] Unknown:
There's been no change in structure. Catholics can say the exact same thing
[00:40:49] Martae Rayless:
and do. Right. Correct. They can because it's, like, kinda changing heritage
[00:40:53] Unknown:
goes the exact same duration because there's a schisms, two from one. So two from one means that you you were one thing at one point in time. You became two things at the exact same time. You so at that schism, you both have the the same claim to the heritage
[00:41:10] Martae Rayless:
when their guys are saying, no. You guys are wrong, and you're saying they're wrong. I don't really have to make a statement. I'm not a fucking Christian. That's a loaded statement when you say both of us have the same claim. I can't assume that they have more claim than I do or I they have or they can't even say the same thing about us because that's like a pastoral claim that I can't even make. And that's like the same claim of saying, well, I could be saved as long as I say I love Christ on my deathbed. Like, we don't know this. There's, like, mysteries that we have in our our religion that we don't even know. So, for me to say that would be extreme hubris for me to say that we, like, I have the
[00:41:46] Unknown:
You agree, though, that they have the exact same legitimacy of duration. And and you both became a different thing at the exact same time. Before before there was Catholics and Orthodox, there was one church and that's and then you schismed and became two. You were one thing and now you were two, so you were exactly the same age.
[00:42:09] Martae Rayless:
So I have a question here. We've been on this we we've been on this, kind of this journey for a bit. Right? And although I've enjoyed this, I do have to ask a question. If we had a debate prompt, what would that prompt say?
[00:42:23] Unknown:
The prompt would basically, was supposed to be, mostly, the effects of either Germanic Odinism versus Christianity on society?
[00:42:39] Martae Rayless:
I would say that a lot of what we have is, the cultures downstream of theology from what we have. And you could tell this by how our laws are constructed, what we say in our verbiage, and how we word these laws. When we say under god, which god are we talking about? We're not talking about Odin or any of the other things. So it's like, right now, we see evidence of this. So if you think about the god on the, on I mean, and I'm being very simplistic when I say these things right now because I have to be and and mind you, Alan, and everybody else, I have to be very pragmatic in this. I can't do, like, an exegesis and all that. Once again, I just wanna say that. But when when you think about God in American culture, do they think do wait. If I was to stop anybody in the American street or even you, do you think society means Odin when we say God?
[00:43:25] Unknown:
Not at this point. Most people don't. You understand that that was from the red scare. Right? Do you think that most people who don't it said before the West. Do you think that most people who don't live in the West
[00:43:38] Steve :
think of Judeo Christian God when you say God? Do you think those people in Asia think of the Judea? This is all by virtue of locality Okay. Invading your argument.
[00:43:54] Martae Rayless:
Judeo Christian isn't a thing. It's either Christian or Okay. That. If it's either it's orthodox, Christian, whatever
[00:44:01] Steve :
whatever you want to do. Debate at a time, one point in this debate at a time. In the West, the West is heavily Christian. Yes. But the vast majority of the planet is not. There are more Muslims, and and I'm I'm not happy about this. I'll put that on the fucking record right now. I'm not happy about it, but there are vastly more Muslims. There are more Shinto's in Japan than there are Christian. The first time I left the country, I went to Japan with my Christian missionary grandparents to go to a Christian church and hang out there. Like, that's what but we were the minority because that's not the part of the country where this particular religion dominated.
So what your argument is based on locality. It's not based on numbers.
[00:44:59] Martae Rayless:
So okay. Are you making, what argument are you making? So I would say globally, predominantly, it is Christianity with over three point, two people.
[00:45:09] Unknown:
Of our majority. Islam by a lot of growth. We
[00:45:12] Martae Rayless:
go go look on Google right now. We are the majority,
[00:45:16] Unknown:
worldwide. True. Not even Worldwide. Yes.
[00:45:19] Steve :
No. World. World world. Two and a half billion fucking Muslims. Is it
[00:45:24] Martae Rayless:
you Look globally. I would I would implore one of you guys to look at Google right now. Look at who's the predominant majority as far as, religion.
[00:45:35] allen marcus:
Well and who is the authority on determining what the numbers are correct? We you bought the idea of forgeries and documents and arguing over these things. We don't know. Well, this isn't an argument of They're saying there's 2,300,000,000
[00:45:47] Unknown:
Christians now and 2,000,000,000 in in, 2,000,000,000 Muslims is what they're saying. Holy fuck. The areas that they're claiming are entirely Christian. That's wild. That's wild. They're like they're they're, like, taking large portions of Africa.
[00:46:06] Unknown:
I have way too many friends in the military
[00:46:09] Steve :
that would That's my various. I have way too many friends that are currently
[00:46:14] Unknown:
working with fucking AfriCOM. Well, that's an appeal to them in a way like that. Like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like
[00:46:23] Martae Rayless:
like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like If you were to say, hey. I have friends that say this. Well, that doesn't really prove anything when I've given you something that's more like
[00:46:38] Unknown:
how was mine not more objective when they made are that's a barn wall thing, bro. It's just a barn wall thing for us. Let's return to the prompt again. So Bolton stated what he thought the prompt was. Marty, what is your understanding? Yeah. I'm just galloping. You know what, Marte? We we had a we had we had Andrew Wilson agreed to fight with, with us, like, with, like, a and do this, like, a year and a fucking half ago or some shit. Yeah. And and kept and then kept blowing it off and then made this weird big old to do about it and and blew it off and was like, oh, it's because, it's because you're an old buddy Bob Punt and acted like a dumb shit. And Jay Dyer who who is friends with Steve and goes on Steve's show all the time, he chicken shit out. And and and and yeah. And he chicken shit it out and fucking then made, like, this weird blow up with Steve, about some dumb meme. It was fucking hilarious.
And And it was agreed, and I actually have a personal history with Jim Bob. And,
[00:47:45] Martae Rayless:
the this as a person who did accept this.
[00:47:49] Unknown:
Here's the We appreciate that. Thank you. Here's the thing here's the thing that I'm not I'm not excusing myself, but I'm explaining. I'm a little excitable, and I'm rusty.
[00:47:58] Unknown:
This is I'm excited. I apologize.
[00:48:00] Martae Rayless:
Yep. Well, here's the are curious. Yes. But let me say this, though. I will say this. Like, if Andrew Wilson is a monster, he's like a literal nuke. He's one of my best friends. If he came here and stomped, if if Jay Dyer came here and stomped, I'm just a catechumen. And if there's no headway headway being made on your side, and I'm basically proving stats like saying there's more Christians, there's no morality argument that Everything that you've done, your morality systems blow. Yeah. If I yeah. But that's preference, though. All you're giving me is preference. When I ask you if there's thievery and lying on your end between gods, how do you reconcile this? You haven't been able to reconcile this. Your reconciliation was saying, well, they're more human. And I'm like, well, that then Oh, that was me. The way men didn't What are yours? That. And I'm just a tad people. But guess what? Our people, if you keep doing it, we pay penalties.
[00:48:56] Unknown:
If your people keep doing it and then go, I'm on team Jesus now and believe it in my heart. Whoop. You're going to the good place. And this is account unaccountability. The person that doesn't I actually conceded that. Pay for their mistakes.
[00:49:10] Martae Rayless:
So I conceded that and said, we don't even know. So if I say we don't know, you're beholden to your own budget. Really the debate right there.
[00:49:17] Unknown:
And when I say that's the debate right there. When I say that that leads to lack of accountability because you don't have to account for yourself. I do.
[00:49:28] Martae Rayless:
No. So here's the thing, though. It doesn't lead to it doesn't that's not the debate. And I told you this. I can concede and say that we don't even know that you'll be saved. Nobody knows. How is that I I don't know if you say I'm not, then I earned what I got. But that makes my argument. If I say we don't even know, tell me if the cost is high and we don't even know, it's like there's more to be What's the key to going to to go into heaven?
[00:49:53] Unknown:
What is the key to going to heaven? One thing.
[00:49:57] Martae Rayless:
Redemption. Salvation.
[00:49:59] Unknown:
This is just find that? How do you find that? Not by through works, by one thing. What is it?
[00:50:06] Martae Rayless:
Through Christ.
[00:50:07] Unknown:
There you go.
[00:50:09] Martae Rayless:
I have to do it through work. That's it. But that's not even the argument. That's not the debate.
[00:50:15] Unknown:
It is. Why do you think our society is this unaccountable society?
[00:50:19] Martae Rayless:
But do you understand do you understand that for somebody to seek salvation, we the this is the point. I'm gonna reemphasize this. We don't even know. Like, let's say I was the most saved person on earth, and I did everything correctly. Nobody else, even I wouldn't know if I'm going to heaven or not. You realize that? That's the argument I'm making. We don't even know. But you're making an assertion of saying, we do know. All we gotta do is do this and we're it's guaranteed. I'm saying it's not guaranteed.
[00:50:47] Steve :
That's what I'm saying. Are you are you saying there isn't a a pre prescribed list of behaviors? Nay, commandments that you have to adhere to that if you don't adhere to them, unless you show significant repentance and you do the proper penance, you're like the the this is what this is I'm I'm kinda middle manning this shit, dude. I really am. I'm definitely not an an. I am definitely not an Orthodox Christian. I am, an observational comic at this point. I see. Fucking, you know, the the has a couple of brain cells to rub together and grew up in a very specific religious tradition that, you know, I have a a fundamental working knowledge of. What we're talking about though, broadly speaking, is the defensibility of, okay, you can do whatever the fuck you want up into a point and then go,
[00:51:58] Unknown:
yeah. No. We don't believe that's what we believe. To be for
[00:52:03] Steve :
the religion, not for the individual. As an individual, you may disagree and I would uphold your right to disagree, but broadly speaking, textually, it seems to be the case that you can lead a life of rampant sin, find a little bit of faith along the way, and that's your golden ticket. You can shake your head no. But where does it work? That's not the case. Doesn't work like that. When you say you could win however you want to Describe how it doesn't work like that and give me textual background for where it doesn't work like that.
[00:52:43] Martae Rayless:
I can give you a very pragmatic, simple solution. And not only this will enhance doctor in that backs that up. So I don't even need doc I can I can have a logical entailment to back this up? Let's say that you're a child and I'm a parent and I tell you We're not talking about that. That's a totally different thing. Let's talk about my thing. Let's do that, please. And And then we'll talk about to this. This can be relational. If I give you hypothetical, can you at least hear this out in in a pair? To this. I'm gonna give you hypothetical.
If you're a child and I'm a parent and I tell you these are the rules of the house, Let's say that I tell you these rules, but as a matter of fact, let me rewind this. Let's say you're a child and I don't give you any rules. The parent's not available. You don't know what to do. You're just running on your own. Right? Are you at fault for anything? Do you know what you're doing is wrong? You probably wouldn't know. Right? Let's say one day I put the hammer down and said, these are the rules. There's 10 rules that you're gonna have. Right? This is really relational to what I'm talking about. And as a parent, I say, hey. Listen. If you do this, this you're gonna be grounded for a week. If you do that, that's what's gonna happen. These are the punishments that are gonna happen. Your life is gonna be miserable. Maybe I'm not gonna punish you, but you're gonna be punished with tummy aches if you eat all the sweets out of the fridge. And here's the thing, though. Before this, you didn't even know, like, what we're gonna do because you're just living in rampant.
I I say objective following your passions. Right? You're just doing saying is you failed
[00:54:08] Steve :
as a parent up until that day. No. No. You never met a single obligation That's the point. As a significant force in that child's life No. That's the point. That you decided
[00:54:18] Martae Rayless:
to lay the hammer down. That's what you're telling me. No. What I'm saying though is if a person doesn't know and then one day they know because this is your point that you're making.
[00:54:28] Steve :
One day using the example of a child. So if you're using the example of a child, you would have to by your religion, you would have to default to the parents as the arbiters of right and wrong for that situation. So you actually think a good parent or parents in general could never Parents in general. Describe any any sort of moral behaviors, right and wrong to their kid. But at the moment that somebody else who isn't the parent does that, then they should they should The parent is from all fucking doctors and go ahead and listen to a perfect stranger because all theologies is responsible.
[00:55:07] Martae Rayless:
If you have a nuclear family, you're going to have a mother and father. This also represents the church in a marriage. Right? Would you say this? So if the child knows after this day, these are the rules, he can't He he's been held to account for all this because you know better. It's actually worse for you. If you don't recognize
[00:55:24] Steve :
responsible for the child up to that point. Was it not the parents?
[00:55:30] Martae Rayless:
Of course, it's the parent. If it's parent, I'm not talking about god. I'm talking about actual parents. But, you know, then we're talking about a couple of, jumbled fucking things because you admit it's already been made in the case Yeah. How is the hypothetic of the parents and the children relational to the point that Marty is making? I tried to get to this, but I was interrupting several times. I I know. I know. I know. Figure it out, man. Yep. Yep. Right. But you have to let me finish, though. I I'll land my plane really quick here. So here's the thing, though. Like, I'm a Christian. Let's say I was just out there in the world just doing whatever. Right?
And I I, one day, find out that Christ is the way, and I find out, oh, gosh. I can't be doing this, and I can't be do and I know better. Right? As the child knows better, you know what not to do now. You are reinforced with structure, boundaries, and you have discipline now that you can adhere to. You know the results of not following rules. Your parents are gonna discipline you. This is gonna happen. If I don't follow this, now I can't say, well, I live live the life and I can do whatever I want. That that's your argument. You're saying, well, we could do whatever we want as long as we pray and repent. No. It doesn't work like this. Just like this child, as soon as you find out that Christ is away, this is the way through salvation,
[00:56:44] Unknown:
this is a thing to do whatever you want
[00:56:46] allen marcus:
for. As as a as a catechum, have you gotten to the point where you discover if orthodoxy, is it evangelical? Is it missionary focus? Is it focused on the culture outside of itself, or is orthodoxy a private club behind closed doors in a church building? Meaning Give me one minute. As as a student in in the the studies of Orthodox Christianity, is it your responsibility to be responsible for your soul and your soul alone? Or at some point, when you become a member, when you've been baptized, you've gone through the catechism and you're accepted as a full member of the Orthodox Church, does it then become your responsibility for the souls around you and your immediate family and then the schools and the immediate neighborhood?
Locality. We talked about locality. Are you directly influencing your local community whether or not they are also Orthodox Christian?
[00:57:48] Martae Rayless:
We are, and I'll tell you how. So it's twofold. This night cuts both ways. So I am personally responsible for the salvation of my own soul. I can't put this responsibility in anybody else. To you, it should make sense. Right? Now the second part that where you're talking to that I'm gonna about that I'm gonna address. Let's say that we're in the middle of a debate, and I have somebody that believes in hedonism. Right? Steve believes that I should be able to bang whoever I want. I'm gonna Hedonism with a d or hedonism with a t h? D with a d. Heathenism.
Okay. He's a heathenist, and he goes to islands, and he bangs all these women. And he believes that he should be able to do this because by freedom of choice, free will. Right? And I'm talking to him easier life than I ever wanna lead, but yes. And I debunk this. I tell him, you complain about hose while while creating problems of hose at the same time. How can you then ask for a solution when you're creating a problem? And then somehow, I destroy this logically in his mind. He no longer believes this, and I create a void. When I create this void, what can then fill this void? So for me, that's how I can do this. So we are in we do play a part in bringing people to the faith, but it's not like evangelism.
[00:59:00] Steve :
That's what you're saying. It's through creating voids. Ecumenical spackle.
[00:59:05] Martae Rayless:
You just feel ecumenical spackle because I can use I can use I would say, atheist not an atheist argument. Your analogy. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to run with it. Oh, but here's the thing, though. I can then use other arguments that aren't Christian to destroy your worldview, which is like by the way, Christian is like, if we talk about God, the logos so I can use a secular argument to destroy yours because without Christ, everything inverts and crumbles by itself. If I use a secular argument to destroy yours and show you why it's logically wrong in a fallacy, that creates a void. And then what can create this void? Possibly Christ.
You know? So that's I look at it like this. So I don't go there to evangelize, to sell you, knock on the door like a Jehovah's Witness and say, have you found Christ today? That's not what I wanna do because through my experience, you put up walls. When you tell people, you need a you need to go to Christ. You need to do this. And I'm like, that's really that you're actually pushing people away when we do this more often than not. But if I talk to you in the New Testament, the great commission says that the church's mission is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living pre creature so that everybody
[01:00:12] allen marcus:
on Earth has heard the gospel message. Are you, as a catechumen, moving towards a full membership, is that going to be your creed and your purpose in life? You ask about purpose later. What is the purpose of you becoming a full blown member of the Orthodox Church, and is it to fulfill the great commission?
[01:00:33] Martae Rayless:
So for me becoming a body of the church and me going into the Orthodox faith and becoming one of the body, You're talking about my life being on display. And by mind you, I'm a public figure. I'm a pro athlete, all this other stuff we could talk about. My life is a demonstration to bring other people to the faith. Matter of fact, I'm talking about your gay stuff?
[01:00:52] Unknown:
Well, no. We're not talking about that stuff. With the other dudes flexing and shit? Just fucking with you, dude. I'm just fucking with you, bro. Well, here's the thing, though. Not great. Yeah. I talk. I can't.
[01:01:04] Martae Rayless:
Right. What but but Benjamin, I'm gonna use that for an example. Let's say that I had some accusations brought up against me, and all this is false and fallacious, by the way, and I never attacked the people that attacked me. So for for me to never attack my persecutors in a slingback of personal attacks and accusations, for me, that's a vandalizing to some degree by saying Oh my god. Enemy. He never attacked somebody. He didn't do this. He's showing me a better way to do this. While they're attacking me, they're actually looking worse. For for me to do this by example, I'm doing this. I don't have to go say, hey, convert to Christ and do all this. They already know I'm a Christian. They know I'm not attacking somebody and they're seeing a better example. We already know we have few examples of this. So by by proxy, I'm doing this already. So I see the commission being done already by that.
[01:01:53] Unknown:
Yeah. I, I got nothing to do with that. The one I did catch, believe me, bro. I wouldn't jump in on that bullshit. Fucking, the the one I did catch this is actually funny enough why Jim Bob and I have history because we were both friends with Owen Benjamin. Oh, man. This is ugly. This is Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the thing is is I didn't know who Owen Benjamin was, bro. I I I literally live off grid. I've never seen his movies or his shows. I had no idea who the dude was. And Yeah. He saw he saw a video of me because I raise I raise cattle and alpacas and, I had, you know, birds and shit like that.
And obviously too many cats. But, he saw a video of me hand sharing alpaca, and he asked a mutual friend of ours because I go on, like, other bigger, shows. I'm I'm a bigger speaker in, like, the alternative world room. And so I go on the bigger stoves and talk, and he heard me talking, and he saw videos of me doing this, and he wanted to talk to me about homesteading. So that was my introduction to Owen Benjamin. It was him and I talking about farm stuff, literally texting back and forth, not even on social media. Can confirm this
[01:03:06] Steve :
having hung out in the house for a number of those conversations.
[01:03:11] Unknown:
Steve and I are people fucking farm shit. Yeah. So I didn't know any I didn't know anything else about the dude or anything. And then so then he starts getting really crazy, and he went through he goes through these cycles where he goes nuts and starts just attacking people wildly like he is right now with Andrew, which I I don't like Andrew Wilson particularly. I think he's a sissy, but, I would never do the things that Owen's doing like attacking his wife. I I understand Rachel's a bit of a public figure, so some people would use that as an excuse, except for Owen's done this to every single person's point figure for mine.
And and so he there was a couple younger guys. The bear community is very cultish. And there was a a schism in their thing. And, Owen started attacking a bunch of these younger guys. And the thing is is some of his more ardent supporters will do things like call CPS and do things that are real. You know the type. And and Owen was you know, he would go and he was saying things like calling them PDF files. And and, like so one person that I was friends with, he said that they had p he they had, like, dirty pictures with the kids on the Internet, and then he switched it to, oh, they were in diapers.
And then it switched to, you know, and they were they were suggestive, and then it turned into something else. And what the picture actually was was them at a a sports bar. Everybody's fully dressed. And he's like, yeah. But there was alcohol in the background. And it was it was really gross, and he kept attacking these dudes. He was also attacking Jim Bob and attacking, Woodshop Bear. And he was saying the same thing about all three of them and calling them meth heads and all this other nonsense. And so I made a video because I was friends with Owen. And I and I called him out, and I was like, what the fuck kind of man talks about people's families and their kids and tries to get people to and gets people riled up so they're calling social services and shit. I was like, what the fuck's wrong with you, you Hollywood punk?
And so that's where Owen and I split and quit being friends. And that's why that's why Jim Bob and I have a history because I don't put up with that kind of shit. It's like that's, you know, that's not the kind of stuff men do. Right. I hear
[01:05:30] Steve :
you.
[01:05:31] Martae Rayless:
So this is this is what I'll say. As far as him being a sissy, I don't have any evidence of that. I think that he's a good man.
[01:05:38] Unknown:
I will all of Char has the evidence of that. You guys you guys you are I'm a You are a
[01:05:46] Steve :
some personal evidence to that. I'll say this though. Know a bunch of successful comedians
[01:05:52] Martae Rayless:
and sorry. I don't Sure. I I hear what you're saying, but this is what I'll say. I'll say this though. I will die for that man because he's my brother. Not only this, and I'm not just saying this because he's Andrew Wilson. This he he like, let's say he never had status. He's my brother, and I die defending his life no matter what. And this isn't me, like, coming at you guys or anything like that. But as far as him being a sissy or all the other stuff, I'm like, well, no. I haven't seen evidence of this, and I don't wanna see any evidence of that because when it comes to this, this is like you guys' stuff. I'm out of this. And the Owen Benjamin stuff, like, that's also not my battle unless they attack him directly. And if they're gonna attack his family, they're attacking me because I look at him as a brother. So, I mean, just like you, Ben, if you somebody attacks your best friend and not your brother, you defend them too. Right? Oh, yeah. I think that we have an unwritten rule amongst men that we should always back our our boys play no matter what. You know? And it's like, we hold each other accountable by the responsibility we have to, like, the morals we have. Right? And not to mention this, but it here I don't know if you agree, man. I'm gonna say your boys play publicly,
[01:06:56] Steve :
but you address that shit privately. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Nobody is talking to Andrew Wilson privately in a manner in which he would be able to learn and grow. Andrew Wilson has been in the exact same fucking place for the entire six years that I've been acquainted with him. He's not grown a shred.
[01:07:27] Unknown:
In fact, he's been He's been acquainted with him. Wouldn't be opposed
[01:07:31] Steve :
to even pretending to hear what anyone else says because he is rigid and righteous in where he stands. And that's where a lot of people rally around him. I'm not I'm not even look. All I'm doing is all
[01:07:49] Unknown:
I'm doing is describing the landscape.
[01:07:52] Steve :
I am not casting at you. I'm not fucking casting stones. I'm just describing the landscape.
[01:08:00] Martae Rayless:
Okay? Well, when when you say he hasn't changed, what are you talking about? We're referring to, like, no change. Well, we've got
[01:08:06] Steve :
thousands of hours of him putting forth the exact same positions. This is what is very, very admirable to me about the Orthodox community. Very rigid and very foundational in the rhetoric. The rhetoric has existed for two thousand years. The rhetoric is unchanging. The rhetoric is constant. That makes the Orthodox community very efficient in the way that they communicate. That is admirable to me. I find that to be a very fucking attractive quality. I do. What where the rubber meets the road, there is no we're going to put this into practice. The practice is from what I've observed, I've got mine.
Fuck you, peasant. And that
[01:09:11] Martae Rayless:
that Where are you seeing this human example?
[01:09:14] Steve :
Mentality. Push back in a second. Let me finish. The pervasive mentality for at least the online orthodox community is I did this thing. Yes. My dad helped me. Yes. My grandfather helped me. Yes. My mother in law's father helped me. Yes. You know, all of these people have but I did it all on my own, and fuck you. No. My property's not in my name. It's in my mom's name. No. My property's not in my name. It's in my fucking grandfather's name. But I did it all on my own. And that seems
[01:09:51] Martae Rayless:
it just Jewish people can say this. Muslims people could say this. That's not exclusive mutually exclusive to orthodox or anybody else. That doesn't really, No. No. No. No. No. But what we're talking about, what we're it's okay to fucking shift away from it. But what we're talking about right now
[01:10:08] Steve :
is the Orthodox community. So Yeah. But what you're saying is the our community, though. Or you're a part of, that would be beneficial.
[01:10:17] Martae Rayless:
So I haven't yet heard what where the rubber meets the road. You gave, like, a broad generalization that applies to every culture, every person, or comply to anybody. This is a I gave you specific examples within the orthodox community, but that's, I guess, neither here nor here. Specific. It's it's general. The Yeah. Example is the example here, Steve. I'll give you a gen a a specific example.
[01:10:40] Unknown:
If your forearm is basically the same size as your wrist and looks doughy, would you call that a
[01:10:47] Martae Rayless:
sissy? I mean, if you're gonna make a make assertions, like, that would be anybody. Hey, bodybuilder.
[01:10:53] Unknown:
Tell me you wouldn't call him a sissy
[01:10:55] Martae Rayless:
bodybuilder, man. You don't lie to me like that. I mean, there's nobody on camera, so you can be frank. But here's the thing. Here's the problem. You're talking about a firearm instructor. Does he really need forearm muscles? Like, it's like so it's like, man, you can't
[01:11:12] Unknown:
open up a one chat.
[01:11:16] allen marcus:
Alright, guys. Thank you for your input. Let's How you even supposed to get a morning blow job if you can't open up the pickle jar? We've we've explored we've explored specific instances of public figures. I don't need to repeat their names during the transcript. We're on the tape, play it back. Public figures in the Orthodox community, public figures just online in the debate community. I know that Marty has a long story of his his faith and his testimony and his being in a in the public figure and having some things on the permanent record that maybe that that that that time arguing with the orthos? Well, each individual man stands for themselves. They represent themselves. Other people other people are not here to defend themselves or the size of their arm or how many bench presses I can do or who can win a thumbprint. That's fair. Thank you. So within the within within this prayer square, the four of us here, individually speaking on our own behalf for our own experiences, we can now talk about, you know, public figures and manhood and prayer
[01:12:20] Unknown:
request again. And red
[01:12:22] allen marcus:
the red the red pill. Right? So we have this idea of what is a man. There's idea of a biblical Christian marriage, how to treat women, this type of thing. And it might be that this is another debate for another time, but while we have you here, you have some experience in the so called red pill community, men dating advice and this type of thing. You did mention orthodox, bros, and then you also mentioned the passport bros, the idea that men travel to other countries and it's sort of,
[01:12:52] Martae Rayless:
sex tourism. Women also do the same thing. They post their pictures on Instagram, and they love to travel. It's not as prevalent with women, though. It's it's really bad with women because if you have a woman who's westernized and she goes back to Europe or somewhere else where people are more traditional, they're not putting up with this. But here's the problem with the ortho with, not ortho or whatever, but I'm talking about Ortho Bros. Alpha Bros. I don't I'm not bought into it, and here's why. It's gonna make really good sense to you. So if you go outside The United States because you wanna find somebody traditional and you bring her back, what's going to propagandize her again? American culture. That's the problem you're gonna run into. So you need something that's firm, fair, and consistent. That's why religion's a good thing to turn to. Christ, like, they like, even he even Benjamin has something better than what we have westernized compared to fem feminism is the biggest shit test that we have in America going on right now, and everybody in on this panel knows that. So when we talk about the going out of The States and bringing somebody back, you don't think they're gonna be brainwashed with this westernized culture of you go girl and snapping their fingers and doing this. That's what's gonna happen. So it's like the problem is is that these people wanna go outside The United States and get a wife, but when they bring her back, they can't avoid American culture. They have to be the man that this woman admires, looks up to, and is traditional and conservative or preserving some kind of values that she admires in a man. To me, I think that's extremely important.
[01:14:17] Steve :
Is manhood inherently conservative? But it seems like we've shifted Yeah. The the conversation very far away from where we were. But, yeah, I totally agree with that. I interrupted you. Has a a very good,
[01:14:32] allen marcus:
you know We have a super chat to address.
[01:14:34] Steve :
Can I address a very good story about this? But, like, I at the same time, you I I get it. I get it. I'd I fucking I swore off white bitches a long time ago because white bitches are fucking nonsense as far as that goes. And I don't know Thank you, Brent. How to fucking I'm pushing back against that. I don't know how to fucking deal with it. I don't, dude. I don't. They're the best and the worst.
[01:15:04] Unknown:
Yeah. Dude,
[01:15:06] Unknown:
dude. They're Thank you, Bronco. Holy shit. Bad. A $100 super chat. Thanks, guys. Took me a while. Better late than never. I tell you what. This has been a wild conversation. Absolutely worth rewriting, brother.
[01:15:21] Steve :
We appreciate you, Bronco. Thank you very, very much. Wow. Go ahead and give yourself a a pat on the back. And if you're so inclined, go ahead and tap your bottom a little bit because that's a good game, buddy. Yeah. A little spam bar being a little bit. We will make a
[01:15:39] Unknown:
special little, clip video to play for you next week that we did not have ready, not expecting that. Wow. Thank you very much, brother. And, yeah, Steve Steve, he gets he was much more liberal when, I I first met Steve. Not not not entirely liberal. He's definitely wasn't a libtard. Steve's always been middle ground, but he was more more rock anarchist after, you know, after, he got free of the, the liberal, what we're in California. You know? It's it's it's even the least liberal girl in California is still a raging libtard for the most part.
[01:16:24] Steve :
Unless they came here illegally from Mexico, and then they're talking bad ass. Yeah. Why is that?
[01:16:31] Martae Rayless:
Go ahead and get you one of those. We're we're picking on we're picking on white women. There's no white women here. I mean, I'm not gonna have for a reason. White women. I'm going to defend white women. I'm going to protect and defend my white women. And when I say mine, I'm talking about the selection bias that I have because I'm not going with Shaniqua. That's a bad option. You guys can have Shaniqua. There is no shit. What what I will say American Negro, bro.
[01:16:54] Unknown:
What I will say, and this is part of where I do have critiques, because it seems like the ortho bro movement seems to be a lot of, gamer boy in cells. And the thing is is if you you should be out in the field working, not just, you know, oh, I went I went camping once a month or something. I live out in the fucking forest and throw bales and push bulls and cows around. Like, get out of here. That's why I don't have to go to a gym. Like, I that you can't give you can't feed somebody from a field that you're not that you're not in and that you haven't grown in. And the thing about it is Like, three different argument you said right now. I I would agree that the white women like, my wife cried when now she had other events going on, personal ones, but she cried the first time Trump got elected. Like, she was very liberal. My nephew died that day.
And I wasn't gonna share that, but, and but she she thought the world was ending. Ow, you little sucker. The world was ending because of Trump. And, now she's much more level headed about things, but you have to be a very strong man in order to bring that out in women. They women are very much like cats. Like, if you've ever watched, like, wild cats breed, the the thing that cat puts out the scent and then and then the male and she attracts the male. And then when the male bites bites the hook, she immediately fights him. And he's gotta be strong enough to to lead to to be dominant enough to pass on those genes or else she don't even want them. And so you've got a bunch of super weak fish ass men, and of course the women aren't gonna change for that. And so you've gotta put at least half that accountability on the men that these men are so fucking weak.
You know? Like and and especially, like, with the things like, oh, well, let's build a house and a home together. No. As a man, you own the home, and then you bring her into it, and she brings the the heart into the home. You have to have the home to bring her too. You know what? These guys don't wanna go out and become men and then go get the you little shit. I got this cat just attacking the hell out of me.
[01:19:16] Steve :
Well, there's a bigger problem,
[01:19:18] Martae Rayless:
but I'll let you I'll let you land your plane. Go ahead.
[01:19:21] Unknown:
And if you guys don't have that, the the leaders in that community, Jay Dyer is is about as fairy as they get, and I know his history, and it's ugly. There's no moral civil and marital history. And and that most of the guys are in sales. This is probably not here to defend himself, so I can't really we can't really invited. He was invited, and he can come anytime he wants. If he wants to come Yeah. But if he's invited, I wouldn't I can't know. He's still not here, though. So I would say that. It's part of the part of the point of time. Except for he except for he bitched out. Otherwise, I never said a word. And it it was actually quite a while after, and it was a it was a year in something before I before I decided I was done with Andrew's shit.
[01:20:06] Martae Rayless:
Well, as far as somebody who had the balls, guts, and courage to show up, I'm not going to You are you are him. Here. I'm just saying he's him, sir. If I have the balls and guts and courage to show up, I'm also going to acknowledge that if he can't show up and he's not defending himself, let's say I wouldn't even show up and defend myself. I don't wanna be talked about in rooms that I I can't defend myself because I like to show up. But here's the thing though. We can't get anything solved if we're gonna talk about people who aren't here because I can't defend people because I don't know their mind, what they're thinking, what they're doing, the scandals between you and them. But I will say this though. One of the things that does need to be fixed is reproduction rights for men. If we could fix this and we could fix the courts and fix the laws so that way marriage is more fair and not weaponized against men, I believe that we bought into a system that's screwing men. Matter of fact, this whole transformer thing that we're having is banning guns. I think that's not gonna be a solution. Here's how you have the solution. If we can give custody rights back to men, if we can insane, though, bro. How like, how do you get a bunch of second amendment
[01:21:10] Unknown:
amendment to go against gun rights? You're like, you guys But you know you can't do that. Right? You can't go against anybody.
[01:21:18] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But here's the thing. We solve that problem by giving custody equal rights to men. If we can do this, you're not going to have boys raised not knowing which sex they are. We eliminate this if we can keep the father in the home, change laws and do this. That's one way to do this to where we don't have to take gun rights away from anybody. By the way, I I believe that we should have mental health checks. Like, you should be able to pass it. If you have a psych issue in your past, you're taking psych meds, you shouldn't have a gun. I do believe in that. I believe that you should like, we we shouldn't have people who have issues and mental health issues with weapons charges, things like this. They shouldn't have a gun. So I do believe that we should have some restrictions, but that's I just gave you, something that's gonna fix it. The solution is by preserving nuclear families, giving fathers custody rights, and making things more balanced so it's not weaponized against system. This solves that problem. It completely
[01:22:11] Unknown:
I don't disagree, and I would add in to take away no fault divorces.
[01:22:16] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. That that needs to be a dead thing. I I I wakes up and you breathe wrong, she should not be able to dead everything. I'm I'm totally against no fault divorces.
[01:22:25] Unknown:
Right? Women go through shit. And and and they will do rash things when they go through shit. They get very rash. And then, you know, all the years that, oh, you weren't supposed to talk about when a women woman's on her period, how very much that they act one way during the time that they're on their period or usually it's right before it and then a little bit into it and then it tapers off. And you're not supposed to talk about that. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. It's just it's just fucking
[01:22:53] Martae Rayless:
making making out facts. Well, you've seen it congruence. There's an incongruence that happens. If you think about this about women, and it's very insulting. Matter of fact, I had a woman tell me I'm insulting her when I say this, when I talk about facts. So women, are they the same on their menstrual cycle as they are the rest of the month? You'll say mostly they're changed. Right? Are they the same when they're pregnant? Their moods and everything, probably different. Right? Well, what about menopause? Oh, shit. There's, like, three different occurrences that they have in their life where they're up and down. Women I don't know if you know this, but women initiate wars whenever they're in leadership roles 28% more than men do. This is very concerning. So this is a fact you guys can also look up too. So I think that men have to be the rock. That's an unchanging standard, not to, like, yeah, like, talk about our previous conversation, but we have to be an unchanging standard in our home. And the superpower that men are lacking is the ability to say no. If you can't say no, we are creating simps by nature.
[01:23:50] Unknown:
But you need to be strong enough to get them to submit to you. Why would you submit to a weak man? Why would you wanna submit to a weak man? You understand you understand the position that they're putting themselves in. My wife, I live I'm a heathen. We live like this. That that's my wife also put herself into that position. She was she's a she doesn't make any money. Well, she has her creams and stuff that she makes at, you know, on the side or whatever. But you know what I'm saying. Like, she's a she makes all the food from scratch. We have a giant garden. She's been spending the last fucking week making making spaghetti sauce because we're gonna we'll have enough spaghetti and pizza sauce for the whole fucking year and then some. And and other things, peppers, you know, processing all that. My that's what my wife does.
And so but she doesn't go out and do take care of the cows. She doesn't go out and throw the hay. She doesn't shovel the shit. She doesn't fix the trucks. She doesn't get the water system going. She doesn't keep the electricity on. She doesn't do any of the man things. And if you're not acting like a man, somebody that she can feel comfortable with submitting to and making herself where she's unsafe and relying on you for her safety. Safe. Yeah. Yes. So well, before that, she had up a shield, and she's only gonna let down that shield in in your home if you give her reason too. You need to be a strong enough man to where she feels like she doesn't need to be the man anymore.
[01:25:24] Martae Rayless:
She can be the the loving wife who doesn't have a manly who isn't have a manly side because she doesn't need it. Yeah. But here's the problem, though. This creates another construct that we also need to avoid in what we should stir away from too. I just wanna bring this up to where if a woman tells you that you need to to make her feel safe and you need to be a certain man in order for her to be feminine, all she's doing is telling you that she has conditional femininity. I would warn you guys to say that any woman that says, I'm not gonna be feminine until the right man think about this. If I, as a guy, say that I'm wearing high heels on Saturday, and I'm not gonna be masculine until the right woman shows up. It sounds really stupid. Right? Well, women have this rhetoric, and they'll say, well, I can't be feminine, and I can't be traditional unless you well, this actually makes her the leader. Are you gonna support and provide for and
[01:26:14] Unknown:
have live in your home anybody but the right woman?
[01:26:18] Martae Rayless:
Well, it goes both ways. This knife has to cut both ways.
[01:26:22] Unknown:
Has to cut both ways. It does. Unless you have unless you're the dude that can bribe provide for her. Yeah. Bring her all in. Your home and make only her one single. Love, why should she be feminine for you? Which the same applies to what you're doing for her. If you move a if you move a rod into your home that's not gonna be your wife, you're a fucking idiot. But do you understand how reductive this is when I only hold one side to account?
[01:26:49] Unknown:
We have to hold both sides to account. I can't say I hate that the way you say it.
[01:26:55] Martae Rayless:
I I can't say I'm the only one that has to hold the standard. I want somebody who's traditional just like I'm traditional. We both have to be accountable no matter what. What he's saying. No. Hold on. He's not bringing up her portion. He's not bringing up how she has to be a good mother. She has to have all these none of that was brought up. I well, I'm just like, she's pulling some Hang on. Hang on.
[01:27:19] Steve :
From his religious perspective, it is implied. It demonstrates ignorance on your part to not understand what
[01:27:30] Unknown:
the the I understand what you're saying. Germanic.
[01:27:33] Unknown:
Where it's Right. How am I supposed to know this? This? You were showing up to talk to a dude.
[01:27:40] Steve :
That's his foundational Right. But how how am I supposed to know this entailment unless you explain Oh, you knew the Ortho Bro talking points to rebut it, but you didn't try to understand it.
[01:27:51] Martae Rayless:
Well, if he's bringing up surface talking points like I am, how am I any wrong than you guys? I did explain my relationship, brother. Yeah. I did explain my relationship that I have a very traditional
[01:28:02] Unknown:
wife. I've got seven kids. My wife is a family mom. We're not moms anymore. We're Yeah. I got your grandkids that are fucking teenagers. If you stay up traditional and you ask five different guys, you're gonna get five different answers. If you ask somebody what masculinity is, you say that my food from scratch and process it out the garden and the whole lot. Hang on. Hang on. What's your everybody else in 02/01/2025
[01:28:24] Martae Rayless:
understands the same lingo you do? What what's your universal
[01:28:28] Steve :
definition for masculinity? There you go. Now we can get to now we can have definition for universal definition for that.
[01:28:37] allen marcus:
I did ask that thirty minutes ago. Sorry, man. It's it's mandatory.
[01:28:42] Martae Rayless:
A lot to nail
[01:28:43] allen marcus:
down that good traditionally conservative. What is this topic we're talking about. Other questions that chat are asking. Okay, guys. You're you're big. You're strong. Man, what are you doing to show this and demonstrate and be very patient with the young people who are just afraid to even make eye contact. They're so intimidated by Marte and Bolesons and Muscles, and you guys are intimidating men. How are you showing your softness and and your approachability and leading the young men into Fear. Femininity.
[01:29:16] Martae Rayless:
Right? He's going to cosmetics. I'm gonna go to something more virtuous like conserving. It's in the name. So if you're going to conserve and preserve something, it's actually in the name. It's baked in that. So if I'm a masculine man, what am I going to conserve? Virtue, truth, righteousness and a consistent being. So if I'm consistent, this isn't muscles. Masculinity isn't muscles. It's not a beard or any of this stuff. Masculinity is your consistency, your loyalty, the truth that you hold that's consistent. Women are gonna feel safe if you're firm, fair, and consistent in your truth, what this is. Not a beard because I know so many pussies that have beards. Like, let's be real. Making a joke. He asked me how to make it softer, and I was saying the beard makes it softer. Okay. What?
[01:30:01] Steve :
Hair is not be soft. How does that hang on. How does that equate
[01:30:07] Unknown:
with the Let's try that again.
[01:30:10] Steve :
Definition of conservatism?
[01:30:14] allen marcus:
Mhmm.
[01:30:15] Steve :
Well, it's in the word. Right? Make those to conserve and preserve the virtue of the truth, the righteousness of specifically orthodox church. Real quick. Steve. Let me put it out here. I think the state is an illegitimate entity that only exists through theft, extortion, and violence, and repeated offenses of theft, extortion, and violence. This is a different argument, by the way. But But but couch conservatism into your worldview where you're just describing what it means to be, like, a fairly decent fucking dude.
[01:30:57] Martae Rayless:
What's couch conservatism? Can you give me a few seconds? This is conservatism. You said that. So But I didn't put a label on it. Can you tell me what couch conservatism conservatism
[01:31:08] Unknown:
to the trade. He's saying how do you fit it into there when he's saying couch? He's saying how do you fit conservative What does that what does that mean? Couch conservative? He's saying he's saying how does that fit into that definition? Is what a conservative
[01:31:20] Steve :
is, and I want you to to make it make sense to me that conservative equals being a decent fucking dude.
[01:31:35] Martae Rayless:
So if you think about things, how do we work culture by letting a lot of Muslims comes in come in, change traditions? That's totally
[01:31:42] Steve :
that's what I'm talking about. Let let's the the definition of conservative in your mind equate that to, in general, being a decent fucking human being.
[01:31:55] Martae Rayless:
Right. But I'm giving you a hypothetical demonstrate.
[01:31:58] Steve :
To, I guess, a political party or a political ideology when this ideology
[01:32:05] Martae Rayless:
exists Oh, I'm not talking about party, though. Planet
[01:32:08] Steve :
regardless of what you call the party.
[01:32:11] Martae Rayless:
You're talking about parties. I'm talking about being conservative. They can be two different things. Okay. Explain that. That's how it is. You're talking about not just political
[01:32:18] Steve :
modern day political context. Are you, like, interchanging traditional Now you're you're you're doing a bunch of fucking jumbling here. No. You're moving to politics. We're talking about masculinity.
[01:32:30] Martae Rayless:
This is a you're you're the one that's moving to politics. We're talking about masculinity as far as computing masculinity.
[01:32:35] Steve :
You're the one who said conservative, so make it a lot more like that.
[01:32:41] Unknown:
I said conservative.
[01:32:43] Steve :
That it's generally accepted by every fucking human being on the planet. Make it make sense in that context.
[01:32:52] Martae Rayless:
If I was eating at a buffet, would somebody say I'm being conservative if I limit what's on my plate?
[01:32:59] Steve :
Make it make sense in the context that you said it because you said it in a
[01:33:06] allen marcus:
very In the context of virtue,
[01:33:09] Steve :
truth, and righteousness. Conservative
[01:33:12] Unknown:
only exists in a couple of countries.
[01:33:14] Steve :
And it would say it exists in a couple of western countries, and it has a very, very, very fucking limited definition by most accounts. So make it make sense within the context that you said it instead of trying
[01:33:31] Unknown:
to jump around to a bunch of other shit. Please. I have to in order for me to do the right righteousness and conservatism.
[01:33:38] Steve :
Assuming they're all smart. Assuming they're all not fucking retard. Steve
[01:33:44] allen marcus:
Steve said like you would talk to us on your level. So Steve explains the state as being, you know, theft and violence through the use use the use of force. So the state legitimizes itself through its own use of force. The idea of a conservative umbrella, there's the idea of nationalism and authoritism. So we're talking about manhood and leadership at its in society and culture. We see leadership and manhood and masculinity through the what we would call patriarchy and male leadership and, you know, president. Yeah. We're a male president. This type of thing. So how does this go to a level? Fucking cuck,
[01:34:20] Steve :
and you're a statist fucking cuck, and all you're going to do is lap the balls and take the fucking cum in your throat of the state whenever it's most convenient to you. That's where I'm coming from.
[01:34:36] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But I can separate the state from so we we initially had a a debate about masculinity. What is that? And me being conservative with masculinity, I wasn't talking about politics at all. I wasn't making reference to this. But you made a made a a leap towards political agendas made a logical connection towards political parties. I wasn't doing that. Yeah. That that wasn't my argument. That's not what I was saying. So I can clarify this for you. So what I mean definitionally is, like, in the word definition, what does it mean to conserve something? So actually, Alan nailed it. He said conserving values, traditions, functions, and duties, things like this. If we can conserve this, this is also adjacent to preserving something. If you can preserve this, this means that you're holding some frame. Right? If we don't hold on to these traditions, we lose this. This This is how we have trans transformer communities and everything because they're not conserving masculinity.
All of this is being outsourced. They're literally conceding to women when we do this. And mental health is degrading
[01:35:34] Steve :
is the process of this. You get what I'm saying, Alan. Right? Yes. I do. I and I understand what you're saying, but make that make sense in an argument that isn't an argument Steve, are you referencing?
[01:35:46] allen marcus:
Condition. Are you referencing? Like submission to the particular fallacy.
[01:35:51] Steve :
Make it no longer the What is the argument to tradition fallacy? The argumentum ad antiquatum. Make it opposite of that. Make it make sense on a lot of with it and shit even.
[01:36:04] Unknown:
Take that, motherfucker.
[01:36:07] allen marcus:
Say it one more time. Deepgram. I am
[01:36:10] Steve :
way smarter than I look, motherfucker.
[01:36:13] Unknown:
I am You know I know this. You know I know this. The the fallacy, the the appeal to the tradition.
[01:36:20] Martae Rayless:
So the truth How is that? How that's a fallacy. Consume
[01:36:24] Steve :
is good, man. I'm a civilized man. Supposed to be. That's the way we're doing it. That is, by definition, argumentum ad
[01:36:34] Martae Rayless:
antiquatum. I can tell you how it's not. So a tradition by definition is, an experiment that has been proven success I understand the Andrew Wilson definition of it. Argue against the fallacy. Can you tell me how it's a fallacy?
[01:36:50] Steve :
Conservatism as tradition. Pointing to tradition as that's the way we've done it, then that's an argument to tradition, which is the whole fragment.
[01:37:01] Martae Rayless:
So that's a small fragment of this. What I'm saying is I'm making an overbroad generalization of saying preserving value. Right? Your fault. Virtues. Right? Virtues, value, things like this. I'm just making this really dumbed down, for everybody else. Warming it down. You were not retarded and make a a broader and more eloquent definition
[01:37:21] Steve :
because the one that you're working with ain't landing. So how The traditional family that we have preserve value in the tradition. No. No. No. No. For you.
[01:37:30] Martae Rayless:
The traditional family keeping that intact by having order structure, like, meaning, like, I'm not going to let my relationship be open. Right? I'm not gonna have a open relationship. I'm not gonna allow any avert anything to come in and avert my relationship like that. Right? Meaning, like, we we have a shared common belief system in the structure of marriage. That's a way to Yeah. The Germanic system. I love Well, you're you're a Muslim Muslim. You're you're doing many I mean, like, that that has those exact same characteristics. So does Christianity. So do the Amish. Like, you see what I'm saying? So it's like you're just Right. Making sure that what are you really doing is my point. If you can give an argument to every
[01:38:14] Steve :
major religion, what are you trying to drill down on?
[01:38:19] Martae Rayless:
We're conserving the values and structures of of, traditions that make this successful. And, yes, I'm bringing up tradition again. But when you think about a nuclear family, what's been proven successful? That's not a fallacy when I say this. So if you see this, what is most likely to be successful to lead to, like, better outcomes? And, yes, we could talk about utilitarian example, but how would this be wrong? How would this be bad if we preserve that and conserve the values of just having this family intact?
[01:38:47] Steve :
That would be up to you on the damage. Reverse and putting forward the argument. Right?
[01:38:53] Unknown:
And and in fact, not only do I think that the Germanic family unit is the way to go for me to answer Marcus's question on my part, the the the defining factor of masculinity is your ability to husband. And I'm not just talking about in a simping way with women. Husbandry is the man's highest calling. That when you start out as a little kid, the way you take care of a dog, that tells a lot about what that kid what's going on with that kid, how he treats his fucking dog. And then when you get a little bit older and you start getting some responsibility, like, you know, a job, and you start acting responsibly at that job and taking care of things and doing what you're supposed to do and being the person that when he sees something wrong, just fixes it and take and and has a relationship, especially this is why a dog was such a key because a dog can't talk back. To have a true good relationship with that dog, you need to have an an uncommunicated relationship where you understand when your dog's not feeling well, what its needs are, things like that. And then Sound of tradition.
When you start oh, yeah. It's Germanic tradition. I a 100% agree. And it Oh, it's it's okay for you to bring it when I do it. It it existed it historically existed before Christianity. I agree with what you're saying. He's at least providing examples. That's something you did I'm just providing examples. And then as as a homeowner and a farm owner, my wife got to see before she submitted to me. She got to see that I was somebody who took care of my animals, took care of my home, provide provided for the things under my care. So guess what she felt comfortable doing? Submitting and putting herself under my care and being a loving and traditional wife who now is now somebody that takes care of me, my children, my grandchildren, and and does it to the point where she even takes our food out of the garden and makes homemade stuff in Kansas, so we have it all year.
[01:40:53] Martae Rayless:
Does all the things you could ever imagine from, like, real health on the prairie. Here's the problem. I did try to bring up an example, but I was overtalked. I was going to bring up a hypothetical, but, yeah, by the way, I don't know if you heard this, Marcus. I was on my way to bring up an up, and I couldn't do this. So when you say you didn't bring up an example, I made several attempts to do this, and I got overtalked, and I was that like, basically, I remember being spicy. I I recognized it too. He was spicy. Like, bro. It's like you gotta be able to at least let somebody have a have a discussion and finish your example land a plane. Because I let you, Benjamin, land your plane. I let you, Steve, land your plane. But when I try to land a plane, it's like 09:11. My plane never lands. That's what's happening right here. I don't hear anybody interrupting you until just now. Go ahead, man. Right. Thank you. I appreciate it. That was a good demonstration of what I wanted. That's it. So my example is, like, if you let anybody in your house, right, meaning, like, anybody who invert your culture let's say if I have some sheikhs come in and they say, no. We're gonna throw these crosses out. We're gonna have these incense lanterns in here. We're gonna change your whole structure. I think that if we don't if we don't maintain this and we allow inversion to come in our home and change our like, if somebody comes in and they're renting a backroom of our house and they slowly but surely start changing our systems, our traditions, and religions, I think that's a bad thing. We're not preserving or conserving anything, and then they're around our kids, you know, and then our kids are gonna buy into that, and that's propagandization.
And maybe they're indoctrinating them by some degree by allowing the chic religious sect to come in here. I think that's a good example. I was gonna bring up, like, immigrants, but I I could throw that out. But that's one good example. I can make, like, 50 others. No. I I agree with everything that you're saying. The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying
[01:42:38] Steve :
is that you're giving an individualistic example of somebody coming into your home. This would be the point of having to the government does this to us
[01:42:51] Martae Rayless:
on purpose and You realize magic people are the same. Right? Is an illegitimate
[01:42:58] Steve :
entity. And if you're basing your religiosity on, a coexistence with something like the state that is illegitimate and will always do this, always put foreigners into your house in order to make them make decisions for you, then what you're doing as a default worshiper of the state is ensuring that this is going to happen to you over and over and over and over again. Steve, that's the analogous me ask let me ask Steve. Steve How's this analogous? Steve, I understand. That men should not submit to the state.
[01:43:38] allen marcus:
The government is the one that is allowing the opposite of conservatism and the opposite of the preservation tradition. Have a conservative government currently. Okay. There we have it. So in terms of preserving the tradition and the tradition of conserving the decor of the home without the inversion protecting the house, is this your personal
[01:44:03] Steve :
property? Well, hang on, man. Because our conservative government right now is saying that we can put thousands of federal troops in the streets while we have a private dinner in the Rose Garden Supper Club Right. And this is a technological elite. That's what our current government under the guise of conservatism is doing. Our current government under the guise of conservatism is saying that the technocratic state is what is going to supplant the current form of government. Our current conservative government is saying that government overreach is absolutely fine as long as we do it to people that we don't like.
So our conservative government is neither conservative nor governing. It's dictating, And that's a very, very different thing. So what we're living under right now is a complete out in the open oligarchy that has nothing to do with a representative republic or any sort of semblance of representative democracy. So I reject all of that on its fucking face. Steve, you know, realize you're in a different argument right now, right, from the original,
[01:45:28] Martae Rayless:
tandem that we were jumping off of. Right? So when we're talking about traditional masculinity and what this means, now we're talking about government and overrule and overreach, which is a completely whole different subsect of an argument that we It is related to leadership. We're we're talking about real time advanced. Yeah. But if we I'm trying to be a little bit more concise here. That's what I'm saying. So but do you realize how we could just have more of a broad example? Like, I'm just trying to be a little bit more concise and holds things hold things down. If we can get past the definition of masculinity, which I haven't heard from your, definition or Benjamin's example, I've given, like, a semblance of mine. But if we can't even move past that and we're already on an overreach of government authority, it's like, alright. I mean, I understand this, but can I hear your definition, Steven? Your yours, Benjamin.
[01:46:15] allen marcus:
That that was mine. Benjamin did state that the ability of a man The husband. Husband.
[01:46:21] Unknown:
The husbandry. That's the call number one calling you. Isn't just which isn't just a husband as a husband wife. It's I run my farm. I run my I'll take care of all my animals. That that's the epitome of man.
[01:46:34] Steve :
Right. I I would I would agree with that. I I would say that that a a masculine man has, authority over his home and influence in his community to the point to where other people would defer to that man's authority, wisdom, experience in order to draw from it so that they could make better, more informed decisions. Outside of that, I I don't have anything to add.
[01:47:12] Unknown:
Exactly. Just like the easy example is my tomato garden. If you're gonna if you're gonna ask somebody, how do I take care of tomatoes? Who should lead us in taking care care care of tomatoes? Well, it's probably the guy with the giant tomato garden that's just crazy. Looks like a jungle. Seems to be the boys to to me. That's husbandry. Yeah. So husbandry is all those things that you do, and that is the epitome of man, and that's who you're supposed to pick as a leader. If I was if there was a group of 20 farms, the guy who took care of his farm the best, the animals on it were the most well taken care of, everything was in good repair and in good order, he would be the one that we would go to to say, hey.
[01:47:55] allen marcus:
How should we run shit? Because you seem really good at it. So the connection the connection in the government here is the question I hear that. Who is the provider? If I hear what he said. Welfare state, the provider becomes the government Right? Well, my question is conservative or liberal,
[01:48:13] Martae Rayless:
left or right. They're the government like in this city. I hear, like I I hear when you're talking about in the country, do homesteading, I'm hearing a lot of that. But in the city, what does this look like to you? In masculinity, I don't think I hear a lot of men living out in the country. Most of us live in the suburbs. Most of us live in the city. When I talk about what's your definition masculinity, I think I just wanna hear, like, something that's more broad that most people can relate to. Own homes in the city?
[01:48:40] Unknown:
People don't own homes in the city?
[01:48:43] Martae Rayless:
No. I'm saying what does this look like in the in the suburbs? What does masculinity look like to you? That's that's what he's trying to to say. Your home. So you're saying that people in the city shouldn't for them to be masculine, they should be able to have goats, tomato farms, and things like this. Like, what does that look like? That's an ass of a 100%.
[01:49:01] Unknown:
If not, you're a fucking slave.
[01:49:04] Martae Rayless:
Right. But what does that look like to you in the city, in the suburbs, if we're talking overall? Because there's a majority who don't live out in the in the woods or anything. The majority live in populated areas. What does masculinity look like to you then? He is right. So the way that you maintain
[01:49:21] Steve :
masculinity in that environment is that you have a fairly fairly rigorous set of, of freaking standards that you
[01:49:38] Martae Rayless:
live by. Yeah. But what is that? Everyone in
[01:49:41] Steve :
this is what every Ortho bro on the planet
[01:49:45] Martae Rayless:
would be for you. I'm asking you what it looks like. Not Ortho bros, not anybody else. If you were in the city, what does this look like? Because you're giving me a broad generalization. What does this look like? Can you give me an example? A guy lives in the city. He's in a high rise apartment. What does masculinity look like to you? High rise apartment not owning his own home. Okay. So a man that can't afford his own home or living in his own so masculinity is material.
[01:50:10] Steve :
Ben Ben has this crazy fucking idea
[01:50:14] Unknown:
that anybody who didn't get a fucking home loan for a place and, you know Steve, did I get a home loan there? If you don't know, say something. Did I get a home loan? Did I get inheritance from my parents?
[01:50:25] Unknown:
But hold on. I mean, why don't you get home to you?
[01:50:30] Martae Rayless:
It's your mom's name. Let's switch her under the word provider if the man is providing That that logic is happening in my mom's name because she put in on part of it. Right. So a man can be masculine if he lives in a high rise or owns a condo.
[01:50:45] Unknown:
He's not a masculine condo. Right? Let's say he rents it. Let's say he rents a condo because have right why should he have rights? Why should he be considered what it what you consider a man?
[01:50:56] Unknown:
Why should he be able to home and you pay taxes. That's not your home anymore. Right?
[01:51:01] Martae Rayless:
If you own a home and you don't pay taxes, that's not your home anymore. Right? I mean, technically, the bank owns your property. Depends on which state you're in. Right. So do you really own a home? That's my thing. So if you're done enough to run-in the table, you know you know that state to state. Right? So hold on. If you're coming masculine dominant way in the bank owns your person of masculinity, that's your definition, is materialism?
[01:51:23] allen marcus:
That's a fair question.
[01:51:24] Unknown:
That is what I'm hearing. Is the is the You can say it's materialism. Nobody said that you had to have fucking a luxury mansion. But if you can't have your own home, you ain't any kind of a man without your own land.
[01:51:38] Martae Rayless:
But hold on. How are how do you own a home if it could be taken away from you if you don't pay taxes? Do you really truly own a home? So if that's your definition, look masculine That's the that's the that's the that's the that's the that that's part
[01:51:52] Unknown:
of being in a society. Every homeowner and historically ever
[01:51:57] Steve :
As you know, you would just have to bring it that you don't actually own your your home. That's why But Martinez
[01:52:07] Martae Rayless:
The definition of the masculinity is conditional.
[01:52:09] Unknown:
That's what it is. That's why that's why homeowners were the only ones allowed to vote because you were the ones responsible for this. Yeah. But that's not my argument. The dudes living in an apartment, they're just transients. They aren't they aren't the they aren't men that you can count on. But that's not my argument. That's not what I'm saying. Argument in the way of the question of how do we conserve
[01:52:31] allen marcus:
and preserve the tradition and allow men to be leaders. The answer given by Balderson is that men who own land are able to vote and in their local community are able to enforce the preservation
[01:52:46] Martae Rayless:
of the problem with this, though. The problem with this is is he's saying, you're not masculine unless you own land. So your definition of masculinity, you own land. That's what it boils down to. I have not heard someone say you're not a man. It's not Well, no. That's the that's the logical entailment of this, though. That's the logical entailment of this. Agreeing with them. You're a little boy if you own if you don't own your own If you reduce this down, that's where his argument reduces down to. How does it not reduce down to a bit? Policy to reduce, the argument. Right. Well, if we take this so okay. So if we take his argument and we say, what's masculine? Well, if you don't own your own home, you're not masculine.
[01:53:26] allen marcus:
Okay. Great. Given what's being implied. It's not. You can provide a home in the city, but to what degree
[01:53:34] Unknown:
effectively. Why you wanna be a provider? The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the has to be an extension. Home. I gave her a home. I don't need a home. Is
[01:53:53] Steve :
that predominantly
[01:53:55] Unknown:
Christy, did you own a home? Home. I don't own a home.
[01:54:03] Martae Rayless:
Because black have it first of all. Because Earth is ownership. We're saying ownership.
[01:54:08] Steve :
Own the most property. Bill Gates owns the most property. Ben is saying that Bill Gates is much more of a man than you, Morte, because he owns property. Bill Gates with his bitch tits and his fucking lizard neck is much more of a man, and Ben will die on that hill. That's an aim that Bill is the epitome of masculinity.
[01:54:34] Unknown:
Steve also knows.
[01:54:37] Steve :
I believe the whole better laws. No. Shut the fuck up, Ben. I ain't done. Ben is saying I'm feeling that he boils down from materialism, basically. That's really what his argument is. Bitch titted tech nerds are so much more of a man than anybody else on the planet because they're the predominant property owners. That's what Ben's saying. Ben's saying people that he wouldn't even fucking throw a drink at are worth more than everybody, not just on the screen right now, but on the entire channel, on anybody else who would ever see this based on his metrics. That's what Ben's saying. Well, I've heard my team there. Couldn't even pick up a fucking hammer or more of a man based on Ben's logic than anybody else on the fucking planet. So Ben, how is your man? He's the most They own more property than Ben. So Ben's a little bitch because Bill Gates owns more property than him. That's what he's saying. That's Ben's logic right now. That's crazy.
[01:55:46] Unknown:
Yeah. But that's his logic. Know we're gonna die. Also knows already knows ahead of time. He's spicy tonight. That that, in a dynamic better laws. Yeah. State also knows that they don't even hold better laws. Bill Gates has more of a man than Ben. Bill Gates has no ability to farm all the farmland that he owns. Zero. Well Maybe Let me put it this way. Maybe he could. You haven't given him a chance, dude. You have Microsoft enough John Deere with the fucking satellites and the fucking thingies.
[01:56:18] Steve :
Microsoft So Ben's logic is inherently flawed in this, and we've discovered that. But that's okay. That is. That's fine. Microsoft as a job provider
[01:56:27] Unknown:
allows men to return to the office. In fact, Microsoft is asking me you the fucking tamales with the fucking with the habaneros tonight?
[01:56:37] allen marcus:
A paycheck is how modern man provides. Balderson has stated that living off of the land and being into husbandry, farming, and gardening means he can provide from the resources of the land.
[01:56:51] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. But do you understand the distinction of what when I dive down into his worldview, he says, you have to own land. Right? So that means that only like, if I ask him this so without materialism, can you be a man? That's my question I wanna ask. Can you be a man without materialism, Benjamin?
[01:57:08] Unknown:
You can't provide. You can't feed people out of a field you don't have. And certainly, I don't know. Provide. Let's say this person can't provide. He's rich. He has all the money in the world, and he can provide. If he's rich, he has his own place.
[01:57:22] Martae Rayless:
Nope. The hold on. Elon Musk has blatantly said out front, I'm not going to own a home. I'm not gonna buy a home.
[01:57:29] Unknown:
He's literally said this. Are you really gonna use that weird fucking robot of a fucking artist? But by your logic
[01:57:36] Martae Rayless:
hold on. By your logic, he's very masculine. No. Right? Because he has a lot of things. Right? This is pushing back against the inversion of conservatism.
[01:57:45] allen marcus:
If the line is you will own nothing and you'll be happy, if you are not in ownership of something, then you cannot provide the thing that you do not own. Meaning provider.
[01:57:56] Unknown:
He's a he's actually more of a provider than all of us on the panel. Dudes that he he have asking for money.
[01:58:02] Unknown:
No. He don't really provide for he has, like, 50 How is he not home? He has a company with tons of employees and things take care of. How is he not providing? How is he not more masculine all of a sudden his panel? Talk to them. He don't even talk to his kids. Do you understand how husbandry works? But do you understand how you're kinda moving this a little bit? I'm just fine tuning it. You're asking about Elon Musk, and I'm telling you that he's not doing all the things. You the whole point to having the home is so you can provide a home for your wife and then children. Wait. And that way that's how this whole that's how this whole nuclear family system works. That's why my wife doesn't need to be provided for. Work.
[01:58:42] Martae Rayless:
All his kids need and want for nothing. How is he not providing for anything? Don't take care of, you should read social medias.
[01:58:49] Unknown:
Hold on. How is he not providing or taking care of his kids? His kids walk in provide. They aren't living in his home. He's not watching after them. He's not has doing husbandry. Oh oh, so you're saying by your logic, kings aren't providing for their kids because they had to go on conquest,
[01:59:03] Martae Rayless:
take over other kingdoms because kings were home for their children. Are they not masculine? Right. We don't we don't know where's happening. Raise his he doesn't ever see He's had to leave their kingdom to dominate other lands. Were they not masculine because they left on to love ever see his kids. Going after this conversation. That's everybody. But we've had kings who've left probably for pilgrimages for years and then came back home and reported home for, like, their duties, whatever it is.
[01:59:32] Unknown:
Those guys were gay. They just wanted to hang up with what they're doing. Doing. And shit. No. They are not. Well, by your logic, they're not masculine. No. I agree with that. They're not masculine. In a castle on a throne. That's all Abrahamic people that do These men who conquered kingdom particularly masculine.
[01:59:50] Martae Rayless:
Were letting leading armies were not masculine.
[01:59:55] Unknown:
Were they Abrahamic and on pilgrimages? That's what we just Alright. Now we're obfuscating a little bit. A little obfuscation. Pinch offy skate here. You you brought up pilgrimages. Going to going to battle, that's a job. Well, again, it's hard. Hey. But how are they not masculine? They left their kids at home. Going to work. Gentlemen, they're going to work. Providing.
[02:00:16] allen marcus:
Domestication, dividing cities, putting up a wall. Is this what masculinity is? Is it about putting up a wall, preserving the structure of the city? Marte, you asked directly about can you be a man, and are you masculine if you live in a city? Balderson was pushing back and saying, it's not optimal for men to live in a feminine society. I think, Marty, you also agreed that in a feminine society, living in a cosmopolitan city, that's the melting pot where all different people are forced to live together, they don't get along. Paul Olsen has offered the solution to say, men, leave the city, get some land, garden. Don't go to work for Elon or tech company or Microsoft. That's not gonna lead to happiness and fulfillment.
[02:01:02] Martae Rayless:
Marty, your response. With the masculinity argument when you say don't go to Microsoft or anything else. That's basically saying if you go to Microsoft, you can't be masculine. Like, well, that's also a fallacy. Like and also that's unfalsifiable too when you bring that up. Microsoft
[02:01:16] Unknown:
stop you from being masculine. You're going out and working. You you can own a home that people from Now Benjamin's refuting you, Alan.
[02:01:23] Martae Rayless:
Let's go ahead. He's refuting you now. There's three of us now, and our prayer circle is closing in tighter and tighter and tighter. He's now refuting you right now. But here's the thing, though. The reason why I brought up the city analogy is because, overwhelmingly, the majority people aren't living in that back with communities. This isn't a thing that's happening right now. And, actually, I mean, I don't wanna bring up the black community.
[02:01:45] Unknown:
In fact, it's going more toward your direction where people you know, because we're at an end time apocalypse, so all the fucking morons, like, the cities are like these black holes of idiocy and and and and vagineness, and it just sucks them into it. And all the people we Yeah. But here's the thing, though.
[02:02:04] Martae Rayless:
Yeah. I live close to the city, but I'm not, like, the non masculine person. I don't consider myself not masculine. I mean, unless anybody has anything to refute the fact that I'm masculine or not masculine. But I think that I'm masculine. Right? But I can live in the city. You're saying that somebody so here's the thing. I wanna ask you a question, Benjamin. I'm dying to ask you this question. Can somebody live out in the woods, be a homesteader, and be feminine?
[02:02:31] Unknown:
Even if they both still have feminine. It's still is he is he a does he does does he do good husbandry?
[02:02:38] Martae Rayless:
He's a good husband. Is it possible this guy could be very feminine?
[02:02:43] Unknown:
That he could have, somewhat feminine attributes? He's already displaying many masculine attributes just by being a good husband. He's taking care of his wife. He does everything correctly, but he kisses guys behind her back. Oh, then he's then he's gay. Yeah. That's that's then he's Okay. So even though he fulfills all the way masculine. Gay guys can be masculine, but he's definitely gay.
[02:03:06] Martae Rayless:
Well, okay. And he wears high heels on Saturdays behind his wife's back.
[02:03:10] Unknown:
Then he's a then he's a tranny.
[02:03:12] Unknown:
I mean, she's got no idea.
[02:03:15] Martae Rayless:
I mean, there's a lot of people we have a whole deal community that does stuff that a lot of black women don't know about. But, anyways, that's neither of them. Right. Yeah. Like, this happens in modern day all the time. Matter of fact, it's like we have social media. The only reason why we're doing it now is because it gets exposed. Like, we didn't even know by the way, sidebar, by the way, we didn't even we thought that this whole thing of police brutality was this major epidemic until body camps came out. Now all of a sudden, we have body camps. Oh, were all the police beating all the black people now? All because we're really seeing what's not happening out here. That's also another epidemic that's happening. But back to this, though, I don't think that you need, like, materialism to be a masculine person, but I do agree that husbandry is extremely important. I do believe that is part and parcel would be masculine. If you're a good husband, hey. You know what? I'm gonna agree with you. I can concede. You have to be that's masculine by my part. But by the way, this all agrees with my whole point of conserving. You're conserving masculinity if you are a good husband because you're not allowing inversion in your home. So, actually, you agree with me. That that was not political.
[02:04:20] Unknown:
That was just Steve.
[02:04:21] Martae Rayless:
Well, I was political, and you weren't Steve came in with the whole political agenda of authoritarianism
[02:04:26] Unknown:
that he wanted to sprinkle on top, which I never imbued in this. So Well, that that is that is a good question. Javieros. I think it I think his wife his wife is is spread something further than I wanted to. So
[02:04:38] allen marcus:
Well, that's okay. We're finding where the fence is, where the wall is, and how do you how do you conserve without building a fence around a garden. Right? You wanna keep out the rabbits from stealing your produce. You can offer produce the rabbits later, but that's your garden. And as a man, you set up the boundaries so that it grows. Right. As a provider the government, though. Listen, Marty. As a provider, provider is a man who is
[02:05:03] Martae Rayless:
Zack. Yeah. I must be Marty McFly from
[02:05:07] allen marcus:
buddy. So as a man, being a provider is being resourceful. And in a city, there seems to be a lack of resources, which leads to theft. Right? I need resources. I don't have a legitimate way of getting them turning to theft. That can happen in any So we're talk we're we're we're talking about being resourceful
[02:05:28] Martae Rayless:
as a man. Cities are extreme hold on. That's a double edged sword, though. Cities are extremely resourceful while also having lack of resources as well too. This knife cuts both ways. If you wanna go towards resources, there's supermarkets. There's just a way to get more money from city. I'm not talking about distribution. Of resources. Talking about theft. That's removal of distribution.
[02:05:49] allen marcus:
So you see what I'm saying? Crack with Whose side of the coin? That's what I'm pointing out. Steal it off the truck before it goes to the store. That's that's a different distribution mechanism. Those men are resourceful. We're not arguing that they aren't. Now we're talking about now but but I'm bringing it back to morality. So by being resourceful, you also have this idea that you cannot take which does not belong to you. So you have to be resourceful, which means you have to generate something. So you have to have a resource like a seed to plant it to generate more tomatoes.
[02:06:28] Unknown:
That's Yeah. But you grow it, man. And generating more. That's part of husbandry. Have to have where where would you plant that tomato seed if you don't have land?
[02:06:36] Martae Rayless:
This isn't mutually exclusive to cities. People rob and steal from, I think, county, like, countrysides as well too. You ever heard of somebody getting their livestock stolen? This happens all the time. So when we say this, it's like it's not mutually exclusive. But I will say this, though. I don't think it's a good argument to say because you live in the city, you're not as masculine as people that live in the countryside because we have very masculine people who own construction companies or industrialists. I think those people are just as masculine as people who live in the country because they're actually producing
[02:07:06] Unknown:
say there isn't exceptions. The majority of city people are are are are not masculine.
[02:07:13] Martae Rayless:
No. Hold on. No. If you talk about people in building the infrastructure, a lot of people who maintain infrastructure, garbage men, people like this, they're very masculine men. How are they not masculine?
[02:07:24] Unknown:
They're exceptions. In fact, they can't even find people that 87
[02:07:28] Unknown:
of infrastructure's men. They're not exceptions. They're they're they're they're they're they're they're
[02:07:33] Unknown:
all jobs now, bro. That's all the way up. They're wide open. I'm I'm an electrician.
[02:07:39] Martae Rayless:
You can't you can't even fill those jobs.
[02:07:41] Unknown:
They're being but that's the thing. Wanna all these kids wanna be streamers, video gamers,
[02:07:47] Martae Rayless:
and and and tech dudes. That's what we wanna do. Exceptions. I'm I'm going to school right now to be a diesel tech. There's so many in school right now for decades. Two diesel tech degrees. Right. But this but that proves my point, actually. It's not exception. There's so many people going to diesel mechanics going out.
[02:08:05] Unknown:
When I started when I started being a diesel mechanic, guess what? Men, there was a lot of manly men. And guess what? Diesel mechanics got paid.
[02:08:14] Martae Rayless:
Jack shit. I made $12 an hour. What did diesel mechanics make now? Benjamin, hold on, though. If you're making jack shit and you're not a good provider, doesn't this put a chink in your armor? But you see how materialism isn't the mainstay of masculinity?
[02:08:29] Unknown:
I I wasn't moving. I would work my way up from being a young boy into a man.
[02:08:34] Martae Rayless:
Right. Moving away from this to where you could be a better provider is good, but this would make the argument for Microsoft and people that work in Adam Apple too because they can provide more resources because of monetary gain. But here's the problem, though, that we run into. When you say it's an exception, it's really not an exception. We can look at the stats for this. The stats actually go in my favor. There's a lot of HVAC technicians. There are more electricians now going into the field of trades and less people going to college now because they recognize that this is a a really bad deal, getting a piece of paper and going into debt. A lot of men are opting out of college and going into trades. This is actually slowly starting to pick up right now. So it's not an exception like you think it is now. Well, this goes back to the question. Is still an exception. For those
[02:09:20] allen marcus:
trades is so fantastic now because nobody works in them. That's what I'm asking now specifically about resources being wages. So if a man goes to work to pay
[02:09:30] Unknown:
to make my old ass wanna go back in the trades. And, like like, literally, there's times I look I get all through things, and I'm like, how much money? My ass is leaving the farm. So it just the the the economic shift.
[02:09:45] allen marcus:
Sometimes sometimes it's important to know that there's an economic benefit to live in a city at certain periods of time. At other periods of time, living in a city is going to just end up in poverty and homelessness and joblessness.
[02:10:00] Martae Rayless:
But that's the double edged sword that you're talking about because on the other side, this cuts the other way through. Right? Does this apply to conservatism
[02:10:08] allen marcus:
and orthodoxy? Do orthodox have monasteries and tradition and places for men to go to study, learn skills, and then decide if they go back into the world? Is that a solution that orthodoxy is offering? People in chat have been asking, okay. You guys have talked about what it means to be a man. How does a man go to orthodoxy be to become a better man to learn skills and then become a husband in the full meaning of the word?
[02:10:34] Martae Rayless:
We we do have this. So we do have monasteries. We do have monks. Believe it or not, we have spiritual fathers that we can go to. But here's the thing, though. I am gonna bring up tradition. We have traditions. We have mainstays. And we also not only this, we have an unchanging standard. Of course, I'm bringing up general terms that I've you guys have heard me say a thousand times in this debate. Oh, also, by the way, I I do have to leave in about fifteen because I'm starving. I gotta eat. I'm a provider. You've given us three and a half hours, which too is all we ever expect. You you you you know, it's Right. But just understand that I love discourse, and I love battle. I love debates. If you guys have seen me in any battle, by the way, I have a debate that's happening this, I think it's this Thursday. Me versus everybody. I'm I'm debating yourself out, bro. Pimp yourself out. That's alright. Where's that? Where's that? Lay it out.
It'll be on the raging tomato this Thursday, and I'm debating 20. As many people can come, just gonna knock them down on the story. Fair moderation.
[02:11:32] Unknown:
Well, what is the debate topic?
[02:11:34] Martae Rayless:
I don't even need fair moderation. I I I kinda, like, love it when it's rambunctious, and I could just lop heads off left and right. Perfect.
[02:11:43] Unknown:
I like it. You guy you guys all know Sarah Tomato. I I've been on there a number of times. You guys all know her. Go check him out. What what is the debate topic?
[02:11:55] Martae Rayless:
Can, corn stars be saved?
[02:11:58] allen marcus:
What is that? I'm defending that. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay.
[02:12:03] Unknown:
Fun topic. Fun topic. You could you could you could spend you so so you could spend your whole young life take it taken Slong and then go to Jesus and you can, and and that's cool?
[02:12:16] Martae Rayless:
We can't we can't make that that claim. We can't say with certainty.
[02:12:21] Unknown:
You can't say you can't say with certainty that, it's not either.
[02:12:26] Martae Rayless:
Well, this goes both you realize this goes both ways. Right? You're saying the same thing I'm saying. Right? That we don't know.
[02:12:31] Unknown:
Like, we can't say it within your heart whether you're saying it or not. We know we know what happens to people because their actions send them where they're supposed to be. None of that. There would there be a distinction in the debate and the argument specifically focus on male
[02:12:46] allen marcus:
or female man or woman stars?
[02:12:50] Martae Rayless:
They're they're mainly because societally, we're looked at differently. If you look at men, we're not judged by our body count, whereas women are. And the reason why is historically is because we had to determine, like, which whose baby this was before DNA testing came out. That's why on their part, this was bad. There's a revulsion that we have as men if we know a woman slept around. But for guys, it's like, okay. I've seen that you can bed women. It's like so it's proven, so actually that's more social proof. But here's the thing that I wanna go away from. We wanna go away from the culture of men sleeping around because that should be as demonized as women sleeping around because now you're complaining about hoes while creating them at the same time. This creates a performative contradiction if somebody walks around. You can't complain about the problem by now you're the pharmaceutical company saying, we're gonna give you cyprexis or whatever this thing is, but you're gonna be have these all these bad side effects from this. Oh, we have the solution for that. That's you right now. It's like if you're the guy in the radical community espousing these beliefs, you're stupid. Like, you're literally brain cells rubbing together if you're making these points. But these are these are the people I debate all day long on panels. We've tried to get in to debate the red pill, the community. They won't debate us either.
[02:13:59] Unknown:
The I I a 100% agree with what you're saying right there. Yeah. In fact, historically, like I said, Germanic society, you weren't allowed to sleep around. If you slept out if you stepped outside your marriage, you were you were gonna suffer socially severely. And, historical guys that slept around even when they weren't married, and an easy example for me to use is, Yarl Hakan, who was a well loved figure, but he was philandering with some of the with some of the girls, and they threw it they overthrew him just specifically because he philandered with girls. Had had nothing else to do with his leadership manners or anything.
Even in in more recent history, most people couldn't possibly tell you why Bill Bill Clinton was impeached. The only thing that they remember is that he flandered and that he he went behind his wife and spooged on Monica Lewinsky, and they they know all about that. They don't know anything else about the legal, ramifications of why he was, impeached. The only thing that they stood out is he's a bad guy because he because he was a Flanderer. That this has never historically been accepted, and it's not a good thing. It's not a leadership quality in any means. And, I don't understand where the red pill community gets off with that. I understand where they're trying to lift men up and make men be stronger. I'm fully with that.
But this part where they think that they can just run around philandering and not, act like a good man and then expect to get the high quality woman, you're fucking nuts.
[02:15:42] Martae Rayless:
Well, here's the other problem with that too is that, like, let's say if I did create a justification for why I should sleep around. Right? Well, when I start having this culture of why I should sleep around, do you think one day I could possibly have a daughter who I don't want somebody like me to run into? You see the problem? So not only is this really faulty logic, but even when you say, I want all the benefits of the spoils, you don't want anybody like you running into your daughter. So this creates an inversion. This creates contradictions. It's like so by my estimation, if you ever take Christ out of the picture, it implodes.
So their logic and the reason why I don't like it so there's two different things I like to be concise about. There's the red pill I believe in, which is like a descriptive packet of, like, okay. These are warning site signs, cautionary tales, things to look out for, and then there's, like, an overcorrection of, like, rules for thee, but not for me. So that's the point. It's not a prescription. It's bad if you try to make prescriptions out of this, and it falls horribly on its face.
[02:16:43] Unknown:
Yeah. No. I I agree with that. It's not a functional community. Some and then also, they're very, like like, you got Rolo Tomasi telling guys to fucking go and get and get themselves made into fucking Unix. You know? Go go go get, go get sex. So that way you could just run around and have sex freely with whatever girl dumping loads, and you don't have to worry about procreating or anything and, you know, just ruining any legacy that you're ever gonna have.
[02:17:15] allen marcus:
And, you know, just it's a weird community. Well So I got I got a final question to to kind of wrap this up. And Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. So here's here's the deal with this. I understand that, some some men, you know, young men learn differently. And you, as an older, wiser man, are attempting to share your story and say these are mistakes we've made. Some men need to learn the hard way by doing the thing that you're telling them not to do to find out for themselves. Now you're saying that leads to all sorts of breakdown and and troubles and things that young men carry into their early adulthood. So in a in a perfect world with Christ being the center growing up in a Christian home, there's sort of this I've noticed this sort of inverse sort of chart. So people who grow up in a Christian home, then they go to, like, a Christian college, they either they skid them, so they either go extremely the the they're maybe they're a pastor and they start pastoring in a church and they stay Christian, or they go agnostic or atheist. So they've tried it. So from birth, being raised in a Christian home, what is the outcome? Either stay in the church or you leave the church. Now you were raised in a Christian home or you had some sort of church experience. You kinda went off, found out what the world was like, and now you're coming back.
What what is that experience? And were you the type of person that needed to, I wouldn't say, find out for yourself, but what what was the draw? Was it You went on a wrong Springer. Yeah. Was it was it was it the need for to be a provider and to have that sort of materials and the money? Was it was it draw up money specifically? Get a car, get a house, settle down, and then do this thing?
[02:18:58] Martae Rayless:
Well, can I address something first before we get to this? The Rola Tomasi thing. Yeah. With this, I think that, in my belief, I haven't I mean, I I think I've heard this through a third party that this was uttered. But the thing is, though, we have a solution with this. I can go on the rational mail and have a conversation. We could do a deep dive. I think there are solutions for this. Because here's the thing, though. When we have and I'll get back to your, question now, and then I'll answer it thoroughly. Lies. Yep. Yep. We have when I have relationships with women. Right. Well, here here's the thing, though. We can't complain about problems if we don't provide a solution because all we're doing is complaining. We're doing the same thing that women do. We don't want to become these men that complain like we're sitting on here. We can complain about people that aren't here. What I do is I go in these trenches and I I meet these men on their battlefield and I have discourse with them. If I'm have having a disagreement, I would say that men shouldn't touch their bodies as far as I think having a discipline and having suffering. Maybe if that's from you denying your flesh from certain things and running through several women, I think that's good. That's just plain old fashioned discipline by saying, you know what? I don't wanna sleep with her if I'm not gonna marry her. I think that's a good tenant to have. Then you don't have to reduce yourself down to a eunuch. I think they're salute and that's like the natural thing. Abstinence is a form of contraception, but people don't wanna talk about this. But back to what you're saying, I think that we all make mistakes. Right? And this goes to the redemption that I'm talking about at Christianity. I think that if we are going to make a mistake, I don't think that we we want people reliving mistakes when we see, like, a roadblock in front of their path. We don't want this diesel diesel mechanic over here running into this wall and screwing up their whole frame, screwing up the manifold, everything else, just destroying everything. Right? If we could see somebody in the path of this and we could say, I'm gonna tell this person the worst horror story and and because we had, like, what we're talking about just and tell us, remember we were talking about oral tradition?
I think we can create oral tradition in our homes with their sons and daughters. By our stories and have our horror stories and accounts, I think that when we have Aesop's tales and things like the Brothers Grimm, they were really horrible stories. If you look at the The Mermaid, it was a horrible story. The Gretel and Hansel, the wolf, bad wolf. These are really horror stories you're telling. These aren't really Disney fairy tales. If we have these horror stories and we can tell our sons and make these distinct lessons passed down, I think that this can hold a lot of power through not only shame, but learning lessons. And this goes back to homeschooling kids. This goes back to main traditional structures. And actually, this can be the glue to our family to create these, by the way, I'm gonna say this word again, traditions that we pass down. My grandfather told me a story. His grandfather told me a story about why we don't do this with women, and I think that's the start. But I think changing laws and unwrapping all this up at once, changing laws to make despair towards men where men have reproduction rights towards these kids and not offering these kids through these planned parenthood, stations that we have, I think that's a start. But I think legislation starts with what I do as a form of debate on these panels against senators, against professors, against lawyers. I just returning. I think I think if we could do this, we can cheat the hearts and minds at home like we do our kids with these stories that we pass down. And I think it's very powerful if we could do this.
That's my that's one solution, and I think it's great if we can wrap this in a form of entertainment and feed our kids this. Because it has to be entertaining. I think we could be charismatic and then tell our kids this, and they can relive this in our imagining yourself as that person? This is very powerful. If we could pass stories down to our kids of what to do in a creative, charismatic approach, they can then see, oh, I've seen this horror story already. My dad told me this. I'm not doing this. I heard this girl say this. The in that story, they said so you see what I'm saying? So I think this is a very diplomatic and great approach to actually create a bonding scenario between you and a son, you and a daughter, to create cautionary tales. I think this is extremely important and can do so to families. So I I appreciate that. The one thing I'll add to that is this this difficulty
[02:23:14] allen marcus:
in navigating the world as a young person in uncertain times with the fear of technology taking over and not wanting to be a backwards farmer shoveling manure. That's that's a dirty job. That's icky. I wanna try to find a clean coding job. I wanna work with AI, you know, and these types of things. I wanna stream Minecraft for a living, YouTuber, that sort of thing. Make 6 figures from your home with a computer. That'd be great. Not not not many people get those opportunities. Some people do. That's a blessing. The the point of being a man in this modern time is to rebel. There's always gonna be this sort of youthful rebelling. That's the spring of wanting to do something different than your parents with your your church. And this sort of this sort of return to orthodoxy is kind of a a question mark in my mind because when young people haven't experienced the world and then they go to orthodoxy, do you think there's going to be a time where they need a rumspringer?
Or is you know, you talk about redemption and avoiding sin, and celibacy is okay, and absence is okay, and this type of thing. Now are you denying? Final question, you know, maybe it's another debate, but my my final thought is if these young men go immediately, you know, from high school and then they go to a Christian college or they weren't they didn't have a church home, but at some point during their youthful rebellion phase, they deny the flesh. They suffer through it. They they're okay with celibacy, but then you get do you get a 40 year old virgin scenario? Do you have a a situation where the man doesn't have experience of the world and then sort of longs for it and has a midlife crisis and buys a car and then becomes a Flander and sleeps around. So at some point, there are there are natural biological energies that need to be channeled in a proper direction.
I guess my personal critique and misunderstanding of orthodox members from their parents' home joining a Discord server becoming an online catechumen, not having a car to visit a location in a church, this type of thing. I don't think that's against orthodoxy. I think this is the struggle of young men needing to become self reliant and providers for themselves, and that's sort of a great challenge that we'll probably have to, you know, meet up again in another point to to address that specifically, but that is kind of my main concern. I don't know that orthodoxy is a one size fits all solution. Bald Balderson is presenting another opportunity for other men to consider as well.
[02:25:34] Martae Rayless:
It's a problem. It's problematic. And the reason why I would say, it's very problematic is because things can become a fad. Things can become very fatty and trendy, and I would caution against people just jumping into it because it's a trend, because it's hot, because, we've heard the word ortho bros because I wanna be ortho bro, and I just wanna become an ortho bro debater. This is a bad this can be a very bad thing because now all of a sudden, you have bitter people that are in an industry that are literally pushing people away from Christ. We wanna push against that. The reason why I'm doing this is because I can see myself and other people that did mistakes that I did. And if you notice, during even this whole debate, you know, I I was very open, transparent.
They have a hard time doing this. You could see the distinction because when people get on these panels and they're not genuine, they move to attacks, They move to just chain you could just easily tell I'm pretty sure that you're very, is is purse you're per very perceptive if you see somebody and they're disingenuous. There are these little actions that you could pick up on. You've lived on this world long enough to tell during a debate or during discourse when so you're like, this person isn't really genuine. They just wanna hear to be be here to be right, and that's what I wanna caution against. If you're in this space, and I wanna say this to everybody because this is streaming on my ex. This is streaming on my YouTube. I wanna say to people that are watching this, if you're in this debate here, enter in your bro, this is wrong. You shouldn't get into this. Your salvation and you doing this should be an individualistic thing. You shouldn't do this. This should not be commercialized.
It shouldn't be a repackaged Mattel thing off the truck. This makes no sense. You're you're literally taking this, and you're pushing more people away from this. But here's what I would say. With modern tech and with pornography and everything else that's perpetuating our system, it's hard to meet one person that's even in in, what I would say, catechumen or anybody else that's even in the Protestant church that hasn't experienced softcore, anything on Instagram or anything. So I think that we go through our own sowing of oats through social media. We're inundated with so much softcore corn through other means and advertisements that we've one time seen a tit. You know? It's it's gonna happen. So it's like there's never gonna be a guy it runs into that's an absolute 40 year old version that's never seen a breast in his life. It's almost, like, I would I would think you're lying. You told me there's a guy that exists that hasn't seen any of this stuff. So we've all been through our source of temptation. And you're Have you met Marcus, sir? Have you met Marcus? He is pure as the driven snow.
[02:28:17] Unknown:
And we will be auctioning him off soon. But pre auction, the the chat is wanting to know what denomination of donation is needed in order for you to stream shirtless and let go a little bit of your pristine white.
[02:28:35] Martae Rayless:
Wait. You said Marcus? Who's Marcus?
[02:28:38] allen marcus:
Alan Marcus. Oh. Marcus Allen. Yes. Oh, okay. I spelled Alan, and I didn't read okay. Alright. As a as a high value male, I I use a regal, European sort of name, easily pronounced by women of all, distinctions around the world, the globe. You know? And and being a high value man amongst other high value men is raising my value right now tonight by having this conversation and enduring
[02:29:03] Unknown:
through to to to Yes. Correct. Yeah. I know. Not a word. You're dying to know, Marcus.
[02:29:09] allen marcus:
Again, you know, that's that's where the the open market sets the price. We're in the price discovery phase, I would say. Slutty. Minimum minimum bid minimum bid is at least at minimum bid starts at 2 Bitcoin.
[02:29:26] Unknown:
That's to that's to take that's to auction you off. They just want Right. I want a preview. Just a shirtless Marcus. Okay.
[02:29:34] Martae Rayless:
Crazy. Because I I mean, well
[02:29:37] allen marcus:
I I understand that. This you we Marte immediately understood the idea of the meat market male economy. And this this is what we're this is what I'm experiencing for the first time. Auctioning. How does it feel to be a thing now? A materialistic item now? It's like you said it's feel pretty masculine. Well, I I You're being auctioned off the highest bidder there, Marcus. Well, this you know, I've been on the auction block for a while. I haven't been around the block. You know, let's make that clear. I like my blocks to be cheese. I like aged cheddar. This is a great gift. Dowries are very important, this type of thing. So, I mean, I can provide too. No. No. No. No. I I like to be provided for as well. So I like to give the women and the men and everyone in the audience an opportunity to be a provider. We we do have a super chat method on the boulders bedroom and boulders in YouTube channel. We wanna thank everybody who's who's helped us meet our monthly goal already. We're gonna now discover that we are even higher value mail by the value that's being provided back through all the chats. I know, Marty, you've had a a long run with us, and I know I know you're getting hungry. You gotta get your macros in, your proteins. I I hear you say Marty, but can I get some justice? Can I hear you say my name right one time?
I'm from Minnesota. How do how do we say it? Say it for me.
[02:30:53] Martae Rayless:
Oh, so the onus is on me. Okay. Martay?
[02:30:56] Unknown:
Marte. He's a he's a minute. Oh, he said it right. He's he's a minute. So now you're more than okay. Good. I'm convinced now. I remain convinced. There you go. I value you. I I try to
[02:31:08] allen marcus:
yes. Yes. Yes. I I you know, I try to speak in my own way and and be genuine to myself. So what I'm gonna say not to go Marte? Marte.
[02:31:17] Martae Rayless:
Marte. Yeah. Rhymes rhyme.
[02:31:19] Unknown:
That's too much list for me. Rhymes at Marte. Has to be made in Florida.
[02:31:24] allen marcus:
It rhymes with the Parte part
[02:31:29] Martae Rayless:
parte party Parte too much list for me. My estrogen's rising right now. Let's let's keep it close to Canada, your a's get real long.
[02:31:37] Unknown:
Oh. A's sound get long in Canada.
[02:31:41] Martae Rayless:
Alright, guys. Well, that's about my time. I appreciate you guys having me up to have some good discourse. I don't run from discourse. I don't run from debates. I've literally had, like I don't think that there's been any debates I've ever ran from. I don't know. I haven't I I think that's so here's the thing. I think this boils down to just a good conversation of fellows that just got together in a room at best, and this was good. I mean, I wouldn't really consider this a debate. I would just say, hey. We just had a meeting of the minds and you know? But I think that this is generally how discourse should happen even without a moment. That. I would say there was pushback. I did experience pushback. No. That's that's what I'm talking about. Deliberating dog face thing. It's a little more of a deliberation. There was a fraction of a push, but, yeah, I would say it may be a deliberation maybe if you wanna call it that.
[02:32:29] Unknown:
We have no issue coming in, brother. It was a it was a it was a gas, and we enjoyed every bit of it, including the fiery bits.
[02:32:37] Martae Rayless:
Thank you so much to the dome. I like the fiery bits. That's my favorite.
[02:32:42] Unknown:
Yeah. We would we would love to have you back on. We will we can, definitely find, we're aligned on a lot of things. You know, I give I give pushback and shit, but I don't mind the ortho bros. I really the world that they represent Yeah. Well I've got disagreements, but, like, I like Jim Bob, Genuinely, I think he's a I think he's a good guy. They you know, I I don't think that I think the world that they want is more similar to my what the world that I would want than what certainly than what is going on now. But I also think that that's a borrowing of Germanic traditions and that that's not found in Christian tradition, and that's why it's it's gone. I think that you guys don't understand that the Germanic, the Odin is our heritage.
And and it that return to heritage does need to happen. I agree.
[02:33:39] Martae Rayless:
Well, I think that we can agree to disagree, and I love the discourse. My favorite parts during this whole discussion were when we did disagree and when things got fiery. That's my favorite. I I will show up every time. If you guys can bring that, I promise I will return. My favorite part wasn't the part where we agreed and we're all connected and brothers. My favorite part was when we met at a crossroads and we had to figure stuff out. I think that's my best part. I think that you like this too, and I like this, and I would return back again too for this, for more discourse, actually. So it's my favorite. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Please tell everybody where to find you. Again, tell them what your YouTube channel's called and everything and any upcoming events you got. So my YouTube channel is called On the Edge. You can find me at, the real mighty underscore the real mighty mouse on Instagram and mighty Marte on x. I just had a debate with Destiny, the Coomer gremlin last week. I so I had two debate channels for Hugh, and I whooped his ass. And I think that he needs his ass thoroughly whooped again. I think I'm gonna meet him again sometime before this year and destroy him again. I love debating these these degenerates because I think that they're they're pushing an agenda in society that should be destroyed at every turn, nook, and cranny, and I think that they should meet confrontation by our end by good men. Without good men, I think we have a society that's gone a a array.
And I think that we do need pushback against the agenda that fights our children and tries to indoctrinate them. Absent any pushback, we allow this. And men, I think that we should congregate together and fight degeneracy together on one accord, whether or not you're a Odinist or whether or not you're a Christian. I think we can see eye to eye, and we know what degeneracy looks like and what indoctrinates our children and what we don't want. I think that we're universal and allied on this front. And I do believe, Marcus, you agree with me on this too. So I agree with this esteem. I promise. I'm grateful for our, our little spat tonight, our little, deliberating. It was good. I enjoyed it. I look forward to more deliberating in a discourse with you guys in the future. So Thank you very much. Much, brother. You have an excellent night.
Yep. Take care.
[02:35:52] allen marcus:
So we thank everyone again for helping us meet our financial goals, being a value for value, providing value in conversation, receiving it back now that we are allowed to on YouTube.
[02:36:06] Unknown:
That that is absolutely amazing. Thank you guys so much. We got two members already. Like I said, let me know what you guys think of the, little icons that I made and stuff. We'll make new ones. And for our giant $100 donor, we will make a a special video that we will play next week. We didn't expect that from, at this point in time. So and to to to let you guys know what we're gonna do is is we've been operating off a Steve Streamyard, which Steve doesn't mind. Steve's absolutely the one of the most generous, amazing people that you'll ever meet.
And, he doesn't mind at all. He's if this isn't something from him, this is, the way it is now because it's stream Steve's Streamyard, only he can do a bunch of things. Like, this whole thing where the it looked like we started at, like, 03:00. That's because Steve had to come in and set up a link for him so I could set up my link, but it was based off of that, so I couldn't set it up correctly. And then when when I go or Marcus goes, like, Marcus has been on other debates, and I've been on other debates. This way, we can bring those to you guys and whatnot. And also, we can do some special things for the members and whatnot.
So we need to have our own deliberating dog face dude. So that was first on the list, and we, the goal was to make enough to at least do that, and and we have, and you guys are fucking amazing. Wow. I'm kinda blown away.
[02:37:42] allen marcus:
Appreciate everything. Yeah. It's been a wonderful night. Finally, feel like we got in a a debate. Felt like a debate, having some pushback.
[02:37:54] Unknown:
And and I thought he was a good guy. I enjoyed talking to him. And when I saw him before, I thought he'd be a a fun to talk to. So that was a lot of fun. I'm glad we finally got to get that in for you guys. It's funny how it went sideways for, like, the first hour. Like, well, this is not at all what we were gonna do, but but it's but it was still a good time.
[02:38:12] allen marcus:
This is this is what men do. When when men get together, we find our commonalities, and we joke around, and we rib on each other. And then once we've built that trust, now we feel like we could say, oh, well, there's this one thing I like to push a little harder on. And and doing the approach where we we just sort of and, you know, mock people and say, you know, all these terrible things about them to sort of sort of build up a challenge. Well, that doesn't really work. It doesn't mean it was a challenge. It's just like, well, k. See you later, loser and blocks. People people walk. They don't engage in that sort of conversation.
[02:38:45] Unknown:
And understand. I don't think you're not a man if you don't live in the city. It's it's not. That's you know, let's just push it. You gotta when you're doing that, you gotta get take some audacious positions and push around a little bit. That makes it, you know, makes it fun, keeps it spicy.
[02:39:02] allen marcus:
But but you but can you be a metrosexual and and live in a cabin alone somewhere? I mean, you have to be in the city. If you're metrosexual,
[02:39:09] Unknown:
you're probably scared of mice and shit.
[02:39:13] allen marcus:
Yeah. That's, I guess we'll have to explore that further. See the men who are afraid of mice. So But they're probably afraid of deliberation as well.
[02:39:23] Unknown:
Well, we will try. Steve's got two people coming in next week. Mhmm. We're actually gonna have a double debate. Oh, okay. It's gonna be, and Marcus and I are gonna be across the table from each other. Steve's got, one guy coming in, that's gonna take the side of Christianity, and then Weezy is coming in, and Weezy and I are, gonna take the side of not Christianity. Mhmm. So we should have a nice, nice spicy one again for you guys next week. I have a lot of fun. We really look forward to it. It's gonna be a good time. Love you guys.
Introduction and Religious Backgrounds
Purpose of Life: Morality vs. Love
Christian Ethics and Human Nature
Accountability in Religion
Orthodox Christianity vs. Odinism
Debate on Church and Tradition
Judgment and Salvation in Christianity
Historical Schisms and Church Authority
Canonization and Church Definition
Morality and Religious Constructs
Debate Dynamics and Moderation
Cultural Influence of Christianity
Global Religious Demographics
Salvation and Redemption Debate
Parenting and Moral Responsibility
Orthodox Evangelism and Community Influence
Public Figures and Personal Allegiances
Masculinity and Traditional Roles
Red Pill Community and Gender Dynamics
Marriage, Divorce, and Family Law
Masculinity in Urban vs. Rural Settings
Conservatism and Masculinity
Tradition vs. Modernity in Values
Husbandry as a Measure of Manhood
Government and Masculine Leadership
Resourcefulness and Urban Masculinity
Materialism and Masculine Identity
Orthodox Traditions and Modern Challenges
Youthful Rebellion and Orthodoxy
Debate on Redemption and Salvation
Red Pill Critique and Gender Roles
Storytelling and Moral Lessons
Orthodoxy as a Trend vs. Genuine Faith
High Value Male
