Exploring Christian Theology and Occult Intersections
Christianity vs. Heathenism: Bridging the Divide
Navigating Spiritual Realms: Insights from Theology and Occultism
Religions End Game: World War 3, Digital IDs, and Spiritual Warfares
16 Christianity vs Heathenism: Occult Edition w/ Wayne McRoy
(00:01:16) Begin
(00:02:20) Homemade Products
(00:04:54) Debate Introduction: Christianity vs. Occult
(00:06:02) Christianity and the Occult: A Discussion
(00:14:54) The Dead Sea Scrolls and Controversial Theories
(00:24:22) Spiritual Experiences and Drug Use
(00:35:25) Synthetic Initiation and Spiritual Growth
(00:51:08) Creation, God, and the Physical World
(01:14:10) Gods, Tribalism, and Christianity's Role
(01:21:53) End Times and the Antichrist
(01:40:03) Tribulation and Christian Hope
(01:48:21) Christianity and Those Other religions
(01:55:02) Biblical Canon and Apocryphal Texts
(02:03:09) Modern Christianity and Cultural Shifts
(02:14:00) Current Events and Psychological Warfare
https://serve.podhome.fm/deliberatingdogfacedudes
https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/deliberatingdogfacedudes/16
In this episode, we delve into a wide-ranging discussion touching on various topics from technical difficulties with streaming platforms to the intricacies of Christian theology and its intersections with occult beliefs. We start with some light-hearted banter about technical glitches and personal anecdotes before transitioning into a more serious conversation about the challenges faced by modern streaming services.
As the discussion progresses, we explore the realm of Christian theology, focusing on the perceived dichotomy between Christianity and occult practices. Our guest, Wayne, shares his insights into how these two seemingly opposing views can actually offer valuable information when examined closely. He emphasizes the importance of discernment in navigating the vast array of spiritual teachings available today.
The conversation takes a deeper turn as we discuss the role of secret societies and the influence of esoteric teachings on mainstream religious beliefs. We touch upon the historical context of these teachings and how they have been manipulated over time to serve various agendas.
We also explore the concept of spiritual experiences induced by substances like DMT and how these experiences are interpreted differently across cultures and belief systems. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding the spiritual world and the potential pitfalls of relying solely on materialist interpretations.
Finally, we address the current state of the world, discussing the potential for a World War 3 scenario and the implications of digital IDs and economic warfare. Wayne offers practical advice on preparedness and maintaining hope amidst the chaos, emphasizing the importance of self-reliance and community support.
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Unknown:
You win. You're metal, dude. Dudes, 9, 38, 7, 33, 2, 1, fight.
[00:00:58] Unknown:
Yo.
[00:01:04] Unknown:
Hey. We're all getting there. That seems StreamYard still has no idea how long it's going. Problems to wait.
[00:01:16] Unknown:
StreamYard Seems like this week, a bunch of shows that I've watched or listened to have had problems with different apps and whatnot this week.
[00:01:26] Unknown:
So, Ryan, some molasses freezing. The syrup is dripping slower.
[00:01:32] Unknown:
Is it? Is that it?
[00:01:33] Unknown:
It might be it. I don't know. I have to check the plumbing,
[00:01:36] Unknown:
the Internet of tubes, a series of Internet of tubes. Is it the scissor? Because I got that lean in it.
[00:01:43] Unknown:
Could be. Could be.
[00:01:46] Unknown:
Hey, Nicklas.
[00:01:58] Unknown:
Well, I hope everybody's doing good tonight. I hope you enjoyed dead air. I don't know.
[00:02:05] Unknown:
Waiting waiting for the wafers to show up.
[00:02:08] Unknown:
Right. You wanna put me on, the main screen for a minute while we're waiting for Wayne there, Steve? Oh, sure. Make me big?
[00:02:16] Unknown:
Yeah. Can do. Can do.
[00:02:21] Unknown:
While we're waiting, it's a fine time. Christie has been working hard and has gotten all of her products ready. So this one is vapor soothe.
[00:02:33] Unknown:
Right as you start, Wayne shows up.
[00:02:35] Unknown:
Right. The vapor soothe is, you know, a menthol rub. Everything that Christy makes is all natural, essential oils, other oils like that. This one's like, like an icy hot type thing. Really neat. She's real happy with it. The cayenne pepper is actually what's making the hot, which is pretty neat. It's very interesting. It's a pepper and mint. So like I said, it's kinda like an icy hot, addition to, like, her, comfort cream that everybody already knows. Burn Banish. This one's primarily essential oils and works magically. Sometime we'll make a video with Brian's burn videos or Brian's burns and what it did for that and the original comfort cream that everybody loves.
Just go ahead and email me at odinsalchemy@gmail. But she's got all these ready for the season and especially for the vapor soothe. My grandkids use use it like mad. But, with that, well, welcome, Wayne.
[00:03:52] Unknown:
Gentlemen, always a pleasure. How's it going?
[00:03:57] Unknown:
Doing well, man. Good to see you again. Good to see you, brother. I didn't I didn't change I didn't change hoodies either.
[00:04:07] Unknown:
Hey. It's all well and good. I wear the same hoodie all the time. I I I just have this one comfortable one. Perfect.
[00:04:14] Unknown:
Not my girlfriend's house. I have 2 here total.
[00:04:19] Unknown:
One of them is mine.
[00:04:21] Unknown:
You wanna do that? Oh, 3 here total.
[00:04:25] Unknown:
That is the adventure of podcasting is not having to worry. Have I I'm not sure what that means. 3 streams in a row. No one sees you. Wayne, I think you'll be interested to know that, my podcast app. I use antenna pod on my Android, and they gave me a year in review. You were my 4th most listened to podcast, Ultra Chemical Tech Revolution.
[00:04:48] Unknown:
Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Good to go.
[00:04:52] Unknown:
Good stuff.
[00:04:53] Unknown:
Yeah. So
[00:04:55] Unknown:
where, where would you like to, start point on this debate? Where are you gonna feel, feel comfortable with that Wayne. Basically, you know, we're obviously going to talk mostly about Christian versus, more of the heathen and the occult world. And, so where do you wanna go with this and jump off? Where do you feel comfortable, brother?
[00:05:22] Unknown:
Actually, I'm comfortable with the entire bounds of all of it. So it doesn't really, I I know that kinda is counterintuitive to a debate format, but I I could I could take any type of stance on it. Primarily though, I I'm a Christian, so I I'll take, like, the the Christian stance on things. I I'm well versed in a lot of Christian theology and that kind of thing. So
[00:05:49] Unknown:
Excellent. Excellent. And do you think that, the Christian view is opposed or counter to a cult?
[00:06:02] Unknown:
Well, see, that's the thing. If you ask one of the mainstream Christians if it's counter to Christianity or if it can actually have a part alongside Christianity, they'll be totally opposed to it because they've been indoctrinated into not accepting any of this stuff and not looking at it, being afraid of it. But it's been my experience that just like anything else, there's a lot of good valuable information to be called found in the occult side of all of this stuff. And that's that's how disinformation works too. It's 90% good information and a little bit of poison mixed in. And that's what I always try to caution my listeners. There's always just a little bit of poison inserted in all of this stuff because largely what has happened is it's been hijacked by a group of well, I call them the darker cultists who run things in this world. And what they've done is they've inverted some of the old alchemical principles that were originally intended for good and for good understanding of how the natural machinations of the world work. And they've twisted it and turned it upside down to try to turn it into totally something totally synthetic.
So that's that's wherein my viewpoint comes in. But it doesn't disavow Chris together. The hats of these people. They're they're pretty full of themselves. They they think they're How big are their hats? How big are their hats? Well, they have big hats too. They they have capuchin, monk hats, and stuff like that, but they they think they're smarter than what they really are. Let's put it that way.
[00:07:30] Unknown:
Sometimes they're large and square.
[00:07:38] Unknown:
You'll have to excuse me if I pause frequently and take a drink or something. I still have a nagging cough going on.
[00:07:44] Unknown:
Not a problem, brother. You don't gotta worry about that at all. What do you, what do you think of the recent, by recent, you know, over the last 6 months, some of the things being said by Aman Hillman.
[00:08:04] Unknown:
I'm not familiar with Aman Hillman. So
[00:08:08] Unknown:
Well, he's a he's a a Greek classicist. So he, he's not exactly a a translator, but basically what we would consider, you know, a translator for a for a layman. They've got something where they work it down to where it's different divisions of such things. So he's an expert in Greek anyways, is what it translates out to. And, he's got a whole series. Some of it is, really far out there, really far out there. And then some of it, even when I'm watching other, biblical scholars, ones that aren't of the biblical bent necessarily, but more of the scholarly bent. So they're just looking and then also they're looking at other works, so they have a better wider range of understanding.
And they aren't disagreeing with some of the things that he says, such as, Jesus getting caught before his crucifixion in a park with a young boy, and he's naked. And, but it it's not. And then supposedly, and again, this isn't my area of studies, so this is just something I've seen on a podcast, but Hillman's got all the credentials. Used to be a a a a teacher. Some of his more, you know, wild interpretations of things or whatnot, have gotten him, you know, kinda kicked out of that community. But, he says that, Jesus was saying when he got arrested, I'm not a child toucher person.
I'm not I can't remember which words are supposed to be used on eBay. Damn it. Right. I'm on YouTube. I'm not that type of person, you know, and he was yelling that at them. And, from my understanding, he wasn't. That wasn't. Although, from what I understand, sometimes Hillman does make that association, but, that he was actually in some ritual and that the boy was not supposed to be his sexual partner, but was supposed to be, the person that was holding the antidote for the poison that he was about to ingest. And then they came in and arrested him, and he died early on the cross actually, because he was poisoned. So this poison, there is supposed to be a certain number of days they expected you to suffer up on this cross, and he died early. And this poison was part of the reason for that.
And because he was he didn't get that antidote for that because he didn't finish the ritual that he was involved in. And that's something about a purple. So do you know anything about any and the purple's supposed to be part of the drug. Like, that's, like, apparently the most extreme of drugs. Just purple.
[00:11:25] Unknown:
Well, what I could say to that is they a lot of people have actually considered Zecharia Sitchin an expert in language, and much of what he has translated has been ripped apart as not really aligning with what's presented there. So I could just tell you that up upfront with that. I haven't heard this particular take on things, but I have heard some similar takes that are traditions in Theosophy and in some of the Rosicrucian teachings. Now they teach that Jesus actually founded a secret society and that the 120 people that met in the upper room were the core tenant of his secret society and that he was trained in a lot of the Hermetic science and arts in his youth, and he traveled to India. What country would he have been in during that? Well, they said he trained some in Egypt, and then he traveled to India and all of this. And nothing that's really documented. This is not proven. This is just a tradition that's been put out by some of the secret society groups, and there's really not a lot to back that up from what I have seen. Now I'm not an expert in any of these ancient languages by a far stretch, but it seems to be when you have one person who comes seemingly out of the blue and begins to make these types of sensational type claims about something that's not really documented anywhere else and doesn't really seem to be
[00:12:48] Unknown:
something that's been passed down through academia for any length of time. You have to question Apparently apparently, it is actually accepted in academia, and he says so and this is actually I've watched a few guys, including guys that don't agree with him, but they do agree with this part that that some of this is actually true, just his bents on it are not necessarily true. So the but the biblical sense, they have their own thing that they that they don't get out of. Like, part of the thing this, Aman Hillman had a a a big kinda, like, scholar battle. You know, between him and what what's that Kip's last name, Marcus?
[00:13:32] Unknown:
Are you talking about a gnostic informant?
[00:13:34] Unknown:
No, Kim. The the guy that got the Nobel Peace Prize for Hebrew.
[00:13:39] Unknown:
Yeah. Let's see. For ancient Hebrew. Kip, Davis.
[00:13:43] Unknown:
Kip Davis. So him and Kip so, again, this isn't these aren't this guy's not like a nobody, and he's agreeing. This is Kip Davis. And they're saying a lot of things that the church scholars don't say. Like, Kip Davis says that Christianity was a polytheistic, tradition at one point in time, and quite a few other things. He says that, a lot not all the Dead Sea Scrolls, match up by any means. He gives real art. He gives real long lectures about it, and he's he agrees with a lot of what Hillman's saying. This Hillman goes, like, way crazy with some of it where he basically
[00:14:29] Unknown:
like, like, perhaps maybe there is something there in the record, but he's taking it way out of context is what it sounds like to me. I haven't listened to what this guy has had to say. I'm not familiar with him at all. So I don't know if I can make a fair assessment based on that. But from what I know about traditional Christian theology and what I've been taught and what I've seen, I've been a student of eschatology and Christian theology for a very long time. That doesn't sound like anything that lines up with anything else I've heard, even in some of the apocryphal texts and even some of the other things that have been recorded. So I I don't know what to make of those types of claims.
Now maybe there was something going on that may have been misconstrued through faulty translations and stuff through the course of time. Because like I said, we have in the biblical because we have to translate different for different languages. I'm sorry. The Dead Sea Scrolls the Dead Sea Scrolls was the primary,
[00:15:27] Unknown:
target of the arguments.
[00:15:29] Unknown:
Okay. Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls, they seem to have a lens of gnosticism in them and that's only one source of information from biblical times. Now it is one of the sources we've come across, but the Dead Sea Scrolls, they encompass a lot of different things and there's a lot of different books of the Bible that have been left out of the Bible and there's a lot of different teachings that were accepted by the early church that aren't talked about in mainline Christianity. But they, in fact, they have a whole set of the Anthenesine fathers behind me here on my bookshelf.
The the writings of Tertullian and some of the other early church fathers and stuff like that. And there's nothing like that that I've seen in any of that either, discussing those types of things. So there's a lot of extra biblical sources you could look at too to try and verify those claims. Like I said, I'm not an expert in languages by a long shot. I barely have a grasp of the English language, I'll be honest. But but certainly, like, there are certain things that that I know in the biblical tradition about what was written and how many various translations through languages through the course of time have happened. So we only have this point of view that we come from now. So we have all these barriers in our way, time and space as being those barriers and cultural differences and things like that. So something that was recorded may have been misconstrued, and it sounds to me like this guy kinda takes things to an extreme sensationalist type viewpoint just to try to draw attention is what it seems like to me.
And maybe he's got something to his claims, maybe not, but it doesn't sound to me like it aligns with the scrutiny that I'm used to with Christian theology and with the traditions that have been brought forward. Now academia, for some reason they have a bug up their butt about Christianity in general, and they do everything in their power to defame it. And a lot of that also derives from some of these secret society groups too. Although they call themselves Christian in their tenants, many of these secret societies display an antichrist type spirit within them, like they are very much contradictory to Christianity.
But there's a lot of valuable information that aligns with Christian tradition too, and that's where people miss the boat with all of this, especially Christians who have been indoctrinated into not accepting, like, any of these occult types of readings. They're afraid to look at it, like somehow it's gonna contaminate their mind or their spirit or something like that if they take this information in, if they understand the information. And that's where I take a different stance on things than most Christians. I'm not afraid of the information.
I'm not afraid of the knowledge, but I do acknowledge that knowledge by itself is not the source of salvation and that's not the source of how you grow spiritually. That's not the case at all. Doesn't hurt to have that knowledge, but this is, like I said, this lens of the gnostics that shines very much through the Dead Sea Scrolls and some of these other records that we have because a lot of that comes from the same types of groups. It comes from the Essenes and various cults that arose around that time. So when you look at it from that observation point, they have a bias that that is inherent in their writings and you can't take that bias at face value necessarily as totally factual. It's their interpretation that is applied to it. The same could be said from these different secret society groups. And that's why I study the writings of all this different stuff because even the mainline Christian Church and what's taught theologically in the seminaries and stuff like that, that also has a bias.
And I acknowledge that as well because you have to understand everybody has their own particular biases towards this information. They have their own lens that they see it through their own accepted modicum of facts that they accept as their reality. And anything that comes up contrary to that creates this cognitive dissonance and that causes a problem for most people. But once you learn to try to separate out what are my feelings about this, what are my beliefs about this, and what are the facts, what are the interpretations, what is the lens of bias that this source brought forward with this? When you understand that, you begin to see a lot of information that corresponds from so many different sources, but they're looking at it from a different vantage point. And I think that's why you and I get along so well, Ben, is because we see things from that different vantage point, but we see the same thing essentially when it comes down to it. And that's where we need to find common ground with a lot of this stuff. And most Christians, sad to say, are so closed minded to all of it. But I'm beginning to see some breakthrough in that community with a lot of this stuff too. They're beginning to maybe be a little more curious and to maybe understand, hey. There's there's more going on here in the background with all of this than what we've been taught in Sunday school.
And they're curious and they wanna know some things. And some of these occult fraternities are a valuable source for information because like I said at the outset here, it's works like disinformation does. It's 90% good information and 10% crap that they put into a lot of this. And it's the 10% crap that you have to be skeptical of and you have to have discernment for and you have to be weary of. So that little bit of poison in there is what you need to avoid and that just takes time and experience to be able to develop that discernment and to be able to pick through the information, find what's valuable, and find what you think is not necessarily something true or valuable.
So it sounds to me from all the different resources that I've studied this stuff from that whatever this guy that you're talking about here is presenting doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny, but it does kind of reinforce the idea that perhaps Jesus formed a secret society group of his own, which there's really no evidence for. But there are those claims that have been made that came through this lens of Gnosticism from the Essenes and from other later groups. And that's the other thing you have to wonder, what are the source documents, what do they date back to the Dead Sea Scrolls? They encompass a lot of time, the scrolls that have been found. So I mean, it's one of those things and like I said, I am not an expert on language, I'm not an expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls necessarily, but I do know things from my observation point, from what I've studied, what I've read, what I do know, what I have taken in, and what I've experienced.
So when you apply that, then, it doesn't seem to me like what you're telling me this guy is claiming stands to scrutiny, but I would have to actually listen to what he's saying and maybe go back and check his sources to find that. And that's not something I I was even prepared for here as far as that goes. I I never I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hold you to an argument you don't know anything about. We're just kinda feeling around right now for
[00:22:35] Unknown:
points of possible contention, you know, where we could enter into a a a debate scenario. Oh, I could argue with the best of them, I guess, but I mean Yeah. Oh, if you know nothing about it, you know nothing about it. That's just a fact. And I and maybe I didn't know if maybe you had gotten the same information from another source. Because like you said, he's not the first one to make some of these. Some of the claims I've heard him make are he's the first one I've heard make, but a lot of them, are are not. The the purple thing and whatnot, he's the first one I'd heard that. He says it's, I think, a derivative of a snail, extract compound that's, most likely a har harsh hallucinogenic, I would assume.
[00:23:23] Unknown:
Yeah. Now something like that. I mean, that might be feasible that there may be such a thing. It's it's hard to say for sure, but what exactly is that? I don't know. I've heard similar things. I've heard that I've heard people have actually said to me in the past, hey, dude. All this stuff you're talking about, it's all just because of mushrooms. And I'm like, no. That's that's not an educated point of view. But that's the the point of view some people come at it with. They claim that all spiritual experience and stuff like this is derived from drug use, hallucinogenic drugs and stuff like that. And that's where mankind has gotten these ideas. And in my view, all that does is uphold this hyper materialist paradigm viewpoint of the world that's been presented to us through our modern scientism. It doesn't really do anything to help man on a spiritual path. It's not helpful, and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny because there's so many things that can't be explained in spiritual regarding all of this
[00:24:20] Unknown:
through just the use of some type of a substance. So by the way get a a portion of it in the drug use because no matter what path it is, when they have a a spiritual extraordinary spiritual experience, the common element historically, if you're not looking at the the possible drug usages, the common element is extreme duress to the body. So whether it's native Americans sitting in a sweat lodge, where you're just baking yourself and dehydrating yourself to the point where you start having hallucinations because of it, or you're, the the, sun dancers that would sit out in the sun and poke, you know, eagle talents through their chest. And, you know, no matter which society it is, you put yourself under some fairly extreme physical duress, which is gonna cause you to, again, have have hallucinations, release chemicals, hormones.
So I think that, a lot of your people that are more interested in using drugs think that that's the only route that it can happen at. And I think that there can be some, spiritual experiences through different, ethnogenics and whatnot, but I think that that's mimicking, a much more natural, the the reason that these people were very few that had that experience is because not many people live through such horrible traumatic experiences. And so through that, they also gained some spiritual wisdom because, you know, they kinda entered that realm.
[00:26:06] Unknown:
Alright. So if if I could just jump in here Yeah. Go ahead. For you. Love to hear what you're saying.
[00:26:12] Unknown:
Couple of different couple of different things that, we we can look at for this. You guys familiar with the book Be Here Now? Heard of that book? No. I'm not familiar with that one. Huge with hippies. It was written by a dude, one of, like, Timothy Leary's buddies, back in the day named Richard Alpert who changed his name to Ram Dass. And, and Be Here Now was one of the books that he wrote. But, in the late seventies, early eighties, he goes over to India, and he goes and he meets with, you know, some guru like that. And the guru had reached out and was interested in trying LSD.
And so he meets up with him, and the guy's like, did you bring the medicine? You know? That's what he called it. And Ram Dass is like, yeah. And then he pulls out a vial, and he was gonna give him a couple of drops. And the guru snatches it up out of his hand, downs the bottle. And about 10 minutes later, he's like, I don't know. I got a little bit of a headache. Anyway, this this would would help people perhaps see or be near God, but it won't let them talk to God. That that was his interpretation, of LSD, which, you know yeah. There's people who have taken DMT a number of times and, receive what's, like, colloquially referred to as a download.
But, again, that's a one way conversation that you know? So I would I would lean towards saying you can have spiritual experiences, but you cannot have, you know, being to being conversation and understanding the way that, you know, people who have been spiritual adepts have said that they have had.
[00:28:32] Unknown:
So then follow-up with that. Another question maybe for Wayne here as far as drug culture in Christianity and churches. There's the the sacrament the communion. And is that cup wine? How much do they drink? Do they get drunk off of it in church? This type of thing. Is there a use of alcohol that's accepted in Christianity?
[00:28:54] Unknown:
Well, here's the thing. Most modern churches, they just use grape juice in place of the elements. They understand it's a symbol, especially if you're in, like, some of the, Protestant churches. I don't know if it holds the same for Catholic churches. I know they hold a different type of an attitude as to the symbolism of the bread in the cup of the elements of communion. So it's all a matter of the different denomination of Christianity as to what their interpretation is thereof. But most of them that I've seen, especially of the product bent, they accept that it's a symbol. It's a stand in, and they don't usually use wine in any of their services. They'll just use grape juice instead because they don't openly promote alcohol.
But, I mean, anything in moderation is not necessarily sinful. I mean, in the biblical days, they that's what they drank primarily was wine. Now as far as intoxicants and stuff like that, I understand and I agree maybe sometimes using these types of psychotropic drugs and stuff like that can give somebody a spiritual experience, but in my view, it's a shortcut and you're not gonna get the full experience that way. You're just getting kind of a preview of the other side. It's a one-sided conversation much like Steve was talking about. So it's not the same thing. It's a synthetic knockoff of the real deal. But people are always looking for a shortcut, and they're always looking for some type of a way to have that experience without doing all of the hard work that goes into that.
And that's where it becomes problematic. A lot of people start to depend on this as a crutch. And then you have the other side of this. Maybe it does open the doors of perception for you to experience some of these other worlds, but you don't know what you're looking at. And that's a lot of the problems. So then you have this phenomenon of machine elves and other things, if you guys are familiar with that. If you looked at Rick Strausman's work on the DMT Yep. It's fascinating stuff. I I'm fascinated by it, but, like, certainly, I I think it's a very one-sided view of things, and people do experience
[00:31:05] Unknown:
a sort of communication, a meta communication. Let me jump in here while you're explaining that and get just with another question to get you to further explain it. What do you make then of the vast number of people, especially on like a DMT type substance, that experience the machine L to the point where that's a known reaction to it? Another one is the, the Panther spirit that comes and is very harsh and, you know, delivers wisdom that's supposed to help change your life and does so in a not friendly way. Like, is there's nothing sunshine's what and you look at meth users.
Meth users often experience the same spirit. A lot of times, they're not cool with it, that they're combating that something that's, you know, against them that they're afraid of. Oh, you're crazy, descriptions that are similar, you know, just spot on. Different parts of the country, different parts of the world, all that are using the only key element that's the same as the drug is so what what is your you know, please incorporate that.
[00:32:19] Unknown:
Okay. Well, what you're describing as far as some of the negative effects of this, like the negative spirit that comes forward, this is known in occultism as the dweller of the threshold. This has been something that was discussed by Manley P. Hall and others in the different fraternities. And this is actually part of a much more harsh initiation process, a synthetic initiation process. And and this is the important thing. I mean initiation is one of the keys that these secret society groups push and promote. The problem is what they've done is they've taken a natural phenomenon that occurs individually for each person in a different way and they've incorporated it together into one formulaic process.
So they give you this synthetic form of initiation, this one size fits all initiation ritual, and this violates the natural order. This is the inversion principle at work, and this is why all it serves is this secret society group. And that's the problem. It serves the secret society group, the brotherhood if they wanna call it that. And it's not the real deal. It's a cheap knockoff. So that's a lot of the problem and that's one of the reasons why they use these substances because it's a type of a shortcut they could take to maybe get a little bit of spiritual insight, but they're not getting the big picture. They're just getting a view into the other side of things. And this does not replace one's personal relationship with the creator and that's a lot of the problem.
So a lot of people are looking for that. We yearn for that. That's inherent in our soul that we yearn for God. We yearn to know our creator, to have communion with our creator. And so sometimes we go about seeking that out through all the wrong avenues. And this, unfortunately, seems to be one that has been around for from cultures from time immemorial where they found these certain substances that maybe get them that experience, but oftentimes you'll find that there's some type of a negative connotation attached to that. And that's wherein this whole synthetic initiation process steps in. That's why there's commonalities. It's all based, in my view, in an archetype, in the archetypal energy, the archetypal spirit associated with these things. Now this is known as the dweller on the threshold when you get that negative hit there. It's supposed to actually help you grow spiritually, but it does it in a really harsh type of a way according to the occultists. Now I don't necessarily know if I agree with their assessment on that. I think this is a negative attachment or a negative entity that seeks to lead you astray and lead you more towards the hyper materialist paradigm because you'll notice a lot of people that use these substances to have a spiritual experience, well, they seem to think in terms of modern scientism in the hyper materialist paradigm to its cause and effect sequence here in the physical world.
You see. And that's kinda how they view it. And they can't have that experience without having used that substance or gone on the spirit quest or some such thing like this. And there's a lot of cultures that have adopted this and have ritualized it. And what this does is this creates this artificial synthetic form of initiation and it creates this process. You may get some type of a spiritual experience from it, and it's not all negative, but there's usually a negative attachment that goes with that. But that's not replacement for a one on one relationship with God the creator. And that's wherein there's a distinction between those things. You can have that without having to use the physical substance to get there. You don't have to go through the doors of perception in this way. But as far as some of the other aspects to this, there are real archetypal energies at play that sometimes people when they use these substances, they experience.
And that's one of the important things. It's it's fascinating to think about because there's a whole set of spiritual realities outside of our 5 senses that we don't understand. And sometimes, this could open the mind in just enough way where you experience some of that. You can see into that a little bit and get a taste of that. And what does that do? That gives you more of a yearning for that. So that's why people oftentimes will repeat the substance use in this kind of a way, and it's been really abused. I mean, some cultures have kind of regarded this in a sacred type way. I mean, you have your vision quest and stuff like that in some of the old cultures where they use this, and this is part of their initiation process that they go through not to take away from any of that stuff. But what we do find is there's commonalities on the other side. So that that expresses to me that there are real spiritual worlds out there that have certain elements to them that we can see and experience and maybe know some things about.
But our view of them is through a mirror darkly as the Bible describes things. So we often don't necessarily see things how they really are on the other side, but through our own bias, our own lens of observation. And that's wherein things get really confusing for people because they report different things, but they have a lot of similarities to them because it's describing a common thing from a different perspective. And that's where all this really breaks down into the individuation of the spirit of man. This is where we are different from the other creatures that we see around us. We have this individuated spirit. We see things through our own lens of observation.
We have our own experience. We have our own I am within ourselves. And it's through this lens of observation that we we can view these things, especially spiritual things, and it looks a little different than what somebody else sees. But there are the commonalities, and that's wherein we find common ground. And perhaps we could put aside what is our belief about this? What do we feel about this? What can we know as a fact about this? And this is where I find the whole conversation of machine elves as a fascinating thing because it's something that's been reported in scientific types of ways through experimentation by Rick Strausman and and some other folks who actually delved into the research on this. Like, real world research, they found these common data points in all of this from people from all different walks of life that they couldn't explain aside from their perhaps being something really there.
And that to me just gives verification. Yes. There is a spirit world or there are multiple spirit worlds and we can't really deny that, although modern scientism would not view it in that way. And that's wherein we see a lot of this cognitive dissonance kick in in society at large. And we have different traditions and myths and religions throughout all different cultures that view a lot of this stuff through different lenses of observation and therefore, sometimes they'll demonize it or or talk badly of this stuff. And other times, they they put it on a high pedestal.
But it's all a matter of being able to separate yourself from what is your feeling, what is your belief, and what can you know as facts. And being able to separate those things out, then you can have a clearer view. You can put it all into one little box of observation and see the similarities between things, the commonality. Because there are commonalities. And I would suspect the reason for this is because there is another side. There is the spirit. And all of the different traditions have held up this viewpoint from time immemorial. But I'll let somebody else talk now.
[00:40:15] Unknown:
Well, if you 2 aren't gonna talk, then I'm gonna try and take this in a little another direction because we agreed too fucking much on all this. Like
[00:40:23] Unknown:
Yeah. I I was yeah. I was gonna say, like, Wayne, that's great that you want commonality and common ground and everybody to, you know, hold hands around the campfire. This is a debate show, kid. So
[00:40:36] Unknown:
we're gonna Yeah. Maybe I'm the wrong choice for a debate show. I don't know. I I No. It's it's not because, also,
[00:40:42] Unknown:
also, also, we are trying to pick some fights with some ortho ortho bros. So we need to have a better grasp, at least myself. I don't have the greatest grasp of Christian theology and whatnot. So at the very least, we're getting that. And and and it's abs and we didn't expect this to be a harsh debate at all. We're waiting the arthro bros, we're expecting that to be quite a bit harder.
[00:41:10] Unknown:
I'm gonna call Ben a queer in 27 minutes.
[00:41:13] Unknown:
Yeah. That's, Yeah. That's how this is going down. And then it's been as harsh as it's gonna get. So when, we were discussing it for a lot of Christian theology, their god is external to this to this place, us. It's an external, being that isn't actually of this place. It created this place, but is not of it. And I talked to you briefly about that, and you said yes and no. So let's go into that further, because that's that's gonna be one of the biggest sources of, difference between, a true occultist that's been actually studying things like as an alchemist where I look at the all. And so there's an all encompassing system.
And from my perspective, and this is part of the way I think that I can understand where I also think that, Christians are polytheists and they just don't know it. They actually just don't understand their entire system because most of them, there's levels like angels and then angels have different levels and then they have saints, they have things like that, and they understand that those beings have power. And, like, as a as a heathen, Odin is not the first being. While Odin may have created man and created this place, he didn't create everything. He's not the all, and that's understood. Odin has a father and a mother in fact. So he wasn't the first being, so there's an understanding that Odin isn't the all. The reason that we follow Odin is because he's the all father, which was a path of understanding and walking that aligned with the all.
At least the father's side because we can't understand the mother's side. And sometimes when Christians speak, I feel like they're following the all mother, especially the ones that feel that their god is separate from this and does not have a physical body. This to me then is the all mother, the Gunungagap, which is what gives the life to the physical side, but it is not of the physical side. The all father is the physical side. And then sometimes I feel like depending on which Christian's explaining it and which parts of the bible, and this is part of the way I think that they just don't really study their own stuff very well. Because sometimes it's the sulfur side of things that they're very, it seems like they're worshiping.
And then they're against in taking sides on a polarity of the sulfur side and the salt side, which is why, like, Billy has been changed to vile and it's demonic and things like that and it's vile. But, so they've entered a polarity with that and started taking the sulfur side of things. But then sometimes, like I said, if their overall understanding is is their god isn't has no physicality, but somehow, gives the soul to this physicality. And there's the other thing, then the soul goes back to the their god to their god once you die, but then what the physical part just is like, I don't know, trash. It just floats around, and it's not of god anymore. It's just useless now. I I don't fucking know.
Like, so go ahead.
[00:44:50] Unknown:
Okay. Well, there's a lot to unpack there because well, I'll be honest. Most Christians, they don't really question a lot of the what they're taught, and they don't really delve deeply and understand their own religious mentality with a lot of this stuff. And that seems to be the stereotype that has taken hold in modern Christianity. They really don't explore those ideas or to the depths of what they are. They don't understand the concept. Now when I've talked to you previous about this, Ben, you asked me, is God external or internal? And I said yes. So it's both.
God is both. And here's where the Christian line gets drawn with this. And this is the simplicity of what most Christians are taught. Okay? They're taught the creator is not the creation and that this whole notion of the the one, the universal one or or the all father, this kind of notion is worshiping the creation. That's what they're largely taught in Sunday school and stuff like that. So anything that opposes this notion of God being external to the creation or not necessarily being the creation itself is counter to what they teach. So that's why they'll say that all of these other religious arguments or philosophical arguments argue that the creation is the creator and that's not necessarily the case. That's not how they view it. We do have this source that we come from where everything has manifest from that is not explainable and is not really something that the human mind could comprehend.
So that is God. So God exists outside of and throughout all of creation. And that's my viewpoint from coming at this, from studying it from all angles for so long because God is within and he's also without. It's an external God, but it's Christ in me. And that's what they teach. Excuse me one minute. Apologies that cough once again that I was speaking of. But, so it's it's God within, but also God outside of the bounds of creation. He's not bound by this creation that we exist within. And that's where in the Christian viewpoint comes in. They view God as being something separate from the creation. So that's why you get this simplistic answer from most Christians. No. God is not the creation. Because everything else that they're viewing, any of these other systems they're looking at, they view that as worship of the creation rather than the creator. And that's where, in, a lot of confusion sets in because a lot of them don't really question that down to the core as they should and say, if we look at the natural world, we see all of these different truths that resonate. Things always happen. You could bank that the sun is gonna come up tomorrow. Let's put it that way. That we know.
But most Christians will say, well, God could stop the the sun in the sky if he wants to and make it not move, and he's actually done so in some of the books of the Bible and the stories in the Bible where the sun stood still for a length of time. And we have some of these older traditions in myth that say the same thing that at one time there were there's a Chinese legend where that one time there were 9 suns in the sky and that the the mythological archer archetype that is their god in that system shot them down with an arrow, shot down all the excess sons with his arrows. I forget the name. Excuse me. But, like, we have some of these traditions that go back, and that kind of relates to the whole question here again. Is the creation the creator?
Well, no. But we are here in the creation and we are part of this creation. And God, the father, the creator, interpenetrates and reacts and works within the bounds of his creation that he made here, and he interpenetrates it on various different levels. This is the the realization I have of things. He's not a God that sits afar off, and that's much of what's been accepted by a large portion of Christianity today. It's called deism. If you're familiar with deism, they teach that in the beginning, God created everything and he wiped his hands of all of it and just now he lets it go. And at one time, he he would perform miracles and and make miraculous interventions and things,
[00:49:25] Unknown:
but we don't see that anymore. That was only for that time. Yeah. They say that they they say there's arguments that a number of the founding fathers were deists.
[00:49:35] Unknown:
Yeah. I've seen that, and I'm familiar with that. There there there's a lot of deism that goes on in freemasonry too, and that's probably where that comes from with the founding fathers. So you have this deistic attitude where God created everything. He set everything into motion, and then that was it. Then he put it on cruise control and walked away from it. That's not my viewpoint. I've seen too many miraculous things happen in my life and around me to accept that God does not interact with his creation anymore. I certainly do understand that he does. So it's a different viewpoint entirely. When you have this being, I guess you could say, or this entity, this intelligence, however you wanna view God, this force, that's what they like to call it in the secret schools, the force.
Not just in Star Wars, it's it goes through it goes way back through their secret doctrine, the force. But at any rate, however you view it, God interacts with the creation still, and he helps move things along sometimes in certain directions. Even though he can and does exist separate and outside of it, he also exists in it. It's kind of a paradox and it's not something the human mind can fully comprehend because we are finite limited beings. So, therefore, it creates this way of thinking in these simplistic terms. And that's where most of Christianity comes to grips with it. They say the creator is not the creation and therefore, if you're keeping something that aligns with create with the creation being God, then therefore, that's not correct. So it is the actual
[00:51:11] Unknown:
the actual material isn't God. The actual material of this material world is not God. Like, the enlivening force of the material, the thing the the the enlivening essence of things, the life essence of this place is God, but the material of that makes up the place, the the the inanimate material is not. Is this what you're saying?
[00:51:41] Unknown:
That's not what I'm saying, but, like, I'm this comes back to the separation of spirit and form. What is spirit? What is form? And we're talking about matter and, of course, that's derived from the word mater, which is the same root word for mother and matrix and all of that. So you have this physical plane in which we exist of matter, of dense matter here, and is it truly a dead entity? I don't think it necessarily is. It is inbreathed with life, but how much of theological viewpoints approach it is they like to look in forms of spirit being the more important portion thereof.
So people are seeking a spiritual path and they they seek out this spiritual reward on the other side of this life when they get there. So they kinda disavow a lot of the physical here. And of course, we do exist in this physical world and it's very hard to navigate sometimes spiritually in this physical world because we are kind of affronted on all sides with different types of experiences that some would call sin, where we are exposed to sin and we have to react to this. And how we react to this reflects in spirit, and it's not something that necessarily is comfortable for us in physicality here.
In physicality, we have this physical animal nature in which we exist and this would be what we would call the fallen state in Christianity. We're fallen. We've we've entered into this state of original sin through the original sin of Adam back in the Garden of Eden and we exist in that and we walk in that and we have to make reconciliation for that. So in order to do that, we're given the intermediary which is Christ. And because of Christ's sacrifice that he made on the cross, we have been reconciled in that way. Now here's the problem with that. We still continue to sin even though we're reconciled for that, but we are forgiven of that because Christ lived a sinless life here and it was through his intermediary process that we are able to have this free gift of salvation. That's essentially what the core of Christianity is. He came here. God so loved the world. He loved us so much, and he saw us in our fallen state because he gave us the grift of free will and we screwed it up.
But he loved us so much that he made a reconciliation for us. So he sent this way for us to be reconciled to that, and this is essentially where we're at as far as that goes. Now this doesn't truly answer the question, is physical matter dead? I don't think it is. I don't think it's separate from the spirit. It's all interwoven together. And that's the thing. We try to simplify things
[00:54:41] Unknown:
in this I'm trying to find where creation is separate from God. Right. I'm trying to find where that separation point is. And and you're not making it easy, Wade.
[00:54:56] Unknown:
Well, see, that that's the thing. How do we find that type of separation point? We we truly can't because we're more limited finite human minds.
[00:55:05] Unknown:
So for me, from an alchemist point of view, here here's what here's what what we've got going on right now. Okay? So from an alchemist point of view, the way creation works is you've got a a a sulfur side, which is fire, a salt side, which is ice or stability. Now the fire side is your is your, unstoppable force, and your, ice side is your movable object. These two things don't wanna meet, and they they won't. They're they're polarized against each other. This is where the all mother comes in. Okay? Now the all mother pulls these two things together and forces that thing to happen. And where these two things meet is where life appears. So the all mother creates destruction and then life, that spark that spark that happens where these two things collide. That's the all mother's fault. She's the one who brings the life and the death.
We can't access the all mother because we live in a physical reality. So in order to and and the all mother is not quantifiable or weighable. So the only understanding that we can have of the all mother is through reactions that we see where her touch happens in the physical realm in order to try to quantify it. Now when you start stating, these things like a dissension, which I understand, You've got the fallen angels, the fallen things like this. So this is where I this is where I believe you guys switch over to being sulfur worshipers. Okay?
Because from the sulfur side, everything's a dissension to the 0 point. Now from the other side, everything's an ascension. So everything that rises when you're looking at it, and this is one of my disagreements with the modern more modern, occult, is their elemental system where it's fight where it's, fire and water meet to create air and then the 3 coagulate to meet to create earth. That's just fucking nonsense, and you can't even make it happen in a lab. And so earth is the 0 point. If you go earth, water, air, fire.
So water level, gas level, plasma level. These are levels of chaos. Then if you go underneath the earth level, there's also levels of stability. So when you look at things in an energetic point of view, like, I I I the under level would be your conductor and up here would be your energy, And the two things need to go together to make something happen at this zero point right here. So if I have a superconductor, which is a conductor that's vastly more stable and more ordered than every other conductor, and I have this super fire, then those two things together work in absolute, you know, unison and just like magic.
And everything else is dirty levels of that in between. Well, we live in this absolute mix in between these two things in this zero point. So when you say things are descending and becoming evil with this dissension, this makes me think then, and again, this is where I end up falling with all Christians that you guys are sulfur worshipers because now you've taken the polarized sulfur side and said that the salt side is evil and everything in on that dissension down is evil. Well, from the from, again, from the the if we look at it more like, the sulfur side is, infinite potential, and the sulfur and the salt side then is gonna be your fight is gonna be your your absolute, is gonna be the actual movement or the the thing itself.
So it's gonna be the material. So if my potential is to build a house, I got this much material to build said house. These two things meet in the middle. I have a fucking house. Right? So you so you guys are taking this side up here and and negating this side down here when from the from the stepping back from the all port perspective, these two things are just polarized sides of the same thing that ends up meeting in this 0 point. And the all mother is the thing that gives all of it life, and I can't fucking figure out where you guys stand.
[00:59:42] Unknown:
Well, see, here's the thing. Mainline Christianity does not acknowledge things on an alchemical level like that, and that's wherein it's problematic. Now in my research and what I've experienced and what I've studied, what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. It really does. And this would be wherein you would have the concept of the Holy Spirit. Now this is the intermediary place. Now most Christians will say, no, there's no feminine side to God. There's no female aspect to that. There's no feminine component. But if you look at it logically and you look at it through the alchemical lens, the Holy Spirit fits that bill.
And that's wherein there's this difference because we have that connection. This is the intermediary that we have now. We had God the father and God the son who he sent here to earth, who took our place and made the propitiation for us and made the way for us, and he sent us the gift of the holy spirit in his place when he ascended back up to heaven. See, there's the ascension principle there again. So Christians are seeking the ascension principle more or less and they're trying to stay on that straight and narrow path for that ascension. But in the meantime, they're disavowing things that are necessary components of our experience here on earth as negative.
We go through a lot of crap here. Let's be honest. We all go through crap. And I mean, the Bible makes it perfectly clear. We're not gonna be without problems if we give our lives to Christ. We're gonna, in fact, probably have more problems because of that. So we have conflict and we have all of this and this is part of the purification process of man. We're conflicted with this sin element and we're conflicted with troubles here on this side in this physical world. And the problem is most of Christianity doesn't focus in the physical in any way. They focus towards the spiritual and they're missing an entire component of our existence here. They're living in the now. They live in the future and that's the problem. We live for the future reward.
And that's wherein I see a problem in Christianity myself. We don't try to live in the now. We don't try to make the best of our situation now. We don't try to do what I would call that spiritual alchemy in the now where we transform the bad and the good. And that was Christ's mandate for us. That's the example he said. You take the bad and you make it into good. That's that's essentially what we go through. Now there's whole different levels of this physical reality in which we live and how the interaction of the energetic or the spiritual side and the form side, the the matter side, the matter component all interact.
And it has a lot to do with this electromagnetic dynamo that goes on in this place. So there's provable energetic principles you could look at and equate back to religion, but most people don't want to actually look at science and religion together as the same thing. They've created this false dichotomy in thought and that's wherein I think we've gone wrong because you always have the religious debate. You always have the the creationists, and you have the evolutionists. And what if it's a little bit of both mixed together? And these are just polarized opposites on the same path here that we see.
And that's why you have people who are on a spiritual path that will disavow everything scientific, and you have people on a scientific path that will disavow everything spiritual. And this is wherein the problem is, in my view, especially with modern religion, not just Christianity, all religions. They have this same kind of idea. They they stick with a lot of their traditions and they disavow the science and then you have the science side disavowing the religion because they can't see mutual ground on certain topics.
And so, therefore, it causes this dissension and this rift in people's belief systems. And the thing is, if you come at it from the proper perspective and you know a little bit of each of these different systems, you can see how all of the components line up and how they agree on more things than they disagree with. So that's why I say, like, looking at this occult information or the alchemical information, the viewpoint that goes with that does not contradict Christianity in any way. If anything, it actually reifies it all the more when you really start delving into it and looking at it. And most people don't take the time to bother to do that, and that's a travesty of the modern age.
We don't have people who are thinking for themselves or trying to work this stuff out or striving for this spiritual path. They're just going along to get along. They're living their day to day boring existence. I got bills to pay. I gotta go to work. I gotta I gotta take the car down to the dealership to get an oil change. I gotta go do this. I gotta go buy groceries. I'm tired. I think I'll turn on the TV and watch the football game. This is how most people exist. They don't take the time to really think deeply or clearly about anything, and that's all part of the spiritual path here. And that's all part of what goes hand in hand with this whole seeking and yearning after God, after this relationship with God, the creator, and having a better understanding of this creation of which we are a part.
So it's it's really a sad indictment of Christianity in particular and religion in general in this world because they all fall under these same type of systems and most of them can't tell you why do they believe what they believe. They've just been indoctrinated with it from a very young age for the most part. They can't tell you why that they believe this or why they have this notion that this is true and certain other things are false. They can't tell you why, and that's a that's a sad indictment of people in in general. They know what they believe and they believe what they believe, but they can't tell you why they believe it or or what it is that's that has convinced them so thoroughly of it. And that that's a point that I think more people need to focus on. And there there's an entire philosophy in Christianity called apologetics that addresses some of these things.
And I don't like that term, apologetics, but it is the term they've given to it because it gives it a negative connotation. It's like, yeah. I'm a Christian. Sorry. I I believe that the, you know, God created everything, that it's it was God that created everything and not just everything always existed and poof, all of a sudden, nothing exploded and became everything. Sorry. I I don't know if that's, like I don't think that's a good term to use for it, but they there are Christians that have come at this from those different angles and tried to explain things through the lens of the the Christian theology that's present and through the the text of the Bible and everything else to bring that viewpoint out. So I look at stuff from all different angles and all different systems, and I've kind of incorporated it all into my understanding of how the the world works and how the universe works. So I I don't know if I'm necessarily the right Christian to bring the point of view of what your typical Christian in the modern church would tell you as to why it is they believe what they believe and what exactly they believe. I don't honestly think most of them know.
I really don't. And and I've talked to a lot of even pastors and priests and stuff, they don't know why they believe what they believe or they they can't back up other than quoting a Bible verse or something for you. They go back to that all the time, but they can't explain to you, like, why. Why do you believe this and, you know, what is this notion? And how about these other traditions that say different things about this? So that's why it's important to look, especially at some of this stuff that's been hidden away by the secret priestcraft behind the scenes for generations. That's It's why it's important to look in the occult fraternities and secret society groups and see what it is they teach at the highest most levels in these these different organizations because a lot of the information, like I said, is good information and it's valuable, and it gives you better context in understanding where certain religious traditions came from, where certain religious ideas came from.
So that's why I explore all of that. But I'll shut up again.
[01:08:28] Unknown:
I think it's kind of been a very one-sided conversation here. Oh, that's alright. We're Okay, gentlemen. Digging into to some of your thoughts here. I like that you mentioned apologetics, and there's there's maybe a branch of men online called the Theo Bros. They have a idea that there's a church fathers that they wanna return to, going back to some of the earliest documents and they're getting into them. Maybe well, let's move into this idea of apologetics, and you mentioned the evolution versus creationism type of a dialectic. There's a lot of silly arguments within the umbrella of Christianity that divides Christianity.
The further further subsections, if we go back to, like, the scopes monkey trial, the idea that, you know, there's a common ancestor and they're arguing the division between science and religion, being both, Wayne and Balderson are arguing for an integration of so called occult ideas in into the mind. But then I think that's a good place to sort of argue, this idea of mind control. And there's a lot of people who think that capital r religion and, capital c Christianity, these organizations, due to the money and the government interference and the secret societies and the Illuminati and all the things that they don't understand it all comes down to some kind of version of mind control.
So with what you said about Christianity being a thing about salvation recognizing the suffering and a way to alleviate suffering by reducing sin in life and having a better life that certainly is very beneficial to a large population of people but we still have to deal with the idea of, institutions using religion and mind control to control the population but then where we could really get into contentious issues here and a lot of people go back through history and say, as much as Christianity has built Europe and it's built a lot of the, the sciences and the academic, institutions, the churches and the universities, it's also done just as much, war and destruction and the crusades, and people have fought, deus volt and, this type of thing. It's like Roman Empire, that sort of idea. So now the question I'm getting to is, are gods for a specific people on a specific land? And this just gets to tribal territorialism.
And somehow, out of all of this, you know, Christianity and evangelicalism and spreading the seeds and missionaries and all of this combined meant that you had you had a military, you had a religion, you had a group of people, and they go to fight, this type of thing. Now if, you know, Balderson's people, the Germans, and those, Norse people versus, Wayne, I don't know what your ancestry is, and I don't know if you have a common ancestry that goes back to a monkey or an amoeba somewhere, but you can argue that. So that's sort of the big pointed, you know, die by the sword type of a conversation here.
[01:11:35] Unknown:
Okay. Well, once again, this falls back. If you're looking at mainstream Christian theology, this falls back on their concept of this hierarchy of powers that does exist in the Bible and it is acknowledged by Christians that it's there, most of the theologians and stuff like that. They acknowledge this hierarchy of powers and actually a divine council even as being something present here. And these different spiritual entities have different functions in this reality and different levels of power. This falls under the category of like angelology and stuff like that. So we have this different hierarchy of powers and some would argue that within some of these hierarchy of powers, they have different, I guess, angelic or fallen angelic beings in some regards that identify as a genius spirit, as they call them in the occult, of a different people group or a different region. So this is called like the genius of such and such a land and that this spiritual entity or intelligence kinda got deified by mankind and became the god of that. And this has created tribalism and division among mankind. So from the Christian point of view, this would be a type of a false god, a small g god, and and then a fallen angelic being or some such thing or a a spirit that had some power that became kind of a god of a certain people group. So you have these divisions going on and it's more of a demonic type spirit in the view of Christianity.
Now if you look at it through the perspective of some of the secret schools and stuff like that, this is how they describe it. They describe it as a genius spirit and it's a spirit that attaches itself to a certain people group or a certain land or even certain family bloodlines. And I find this to be hugely fascinating as well. So you have these different spirits that manifest and sometimes a lot of this causes conflict. Conflict because they're looking out for this one people group and so you have all of this contention and all of this falls back to original sin, of course, when you look at all the divisions and stuff that have gone on here. But certainly we can understand from that perspective, from the Christian mainline theological viewpoint, these would be demonic type entities or fallen angelic beings or something like that that have been all of the other gods separate from the one that's deified in the Christian bible.
So they they view that as being the creator that they and you could go back and argue the semantics of a lot of that as well. But, certainly, we have this division in these different cultures as far as that stuff goes, but, a lot of that from the Christian point of view is just demonstrating some of these other lesser beings in the hierarchy have kinda taken on this role as a god in a certain area or something like that. And then we have I don't know if I strayed far from the question or if I stuck sitting there. I'm trying to stay a little more focused. My mind works all over the place. So Right. So now there's,
[01:14:53] Unknown:
guess, maybe in America today, there's a concern of a a growing fascism or a theocracy. People throw words around not really knowing the original intended meaning versus the meaning that it's maybe shifted towards. So, like, theocratic, government, is is the American government a Christian government combined with a military combined with church arms? And and then we lead to things that we can't talk about. You take a triangle. You you mix it up. You put another triangle together. Middle Eastern conflicts, this type of thing, leading towards biblical prophecy, towards an end times in Armageddon, a World War 3. This type of thing. Is this a benefit of Christianity?
[01:15:37] Unknown:
I don't know if it's necessarily a benefit, but it's giving you an accurate description of times that are we're living in, isn't it? I mean, you you could see a lot of the prophetic things are are true on one level or another, but I don't know if I would call it beneficial. I mean, we're living in interesting times, and we're living in, like, some some really
[01:15:57] Unknown:
tough times right now. It's the it's the acceleration
[01:16:00] Unknown:
of things. It is. It's the acceleration toward the eschaton. So, this is something Right. That is another matter altogether, and and you could look at all different systems. I think universally, not just in Christianity, universally across the board, all the different religious and philosophical systems agree that everything's coming to a head very soon, and something big is going to happen that's transforming mankind. So I think that's something we can all agree upon as far as that goes. Now in Christianity, this is described as the apocalypse, the the book of Revelation. All of these things and all of that's highly symbolic, and there are people in Christianity that look at some of what's been written there, and they take it literally. The words on the page, they they have a literalist interpretation of that. But what they fail to realize is that John the Revelator, when he's being shown this stuff in the book of Revelation, that's in the spiritual world.
So that's not something that's going to physically necessarily look how we think it's going to look, and this is something I've discussed with a lot of my fellow Christians in recent months. I don't think it's gonna all look how you think it's gonna look. Like, I don't think there's going to be this guy marching out onto the scene. That's the antichrist. I think it's a system, and I think it's something a little more subtle, and I think it's something that honestly in my viewpoint relates to artificial intelligence and the transhumanist notion of things. But that's that's my opinion, and I I totally reserve the right to be wrong on all of that. It's possible that the first person that the antichrist is the first person that comes out with a
[01:17:39] Unknown:
transhuman full transhumanist body and thus making them somewhat immortal that they would have died as a human and been resurrected. Because isn't that the motif of the Yeah. Of the antichrist? He goes through basically the Christ ritual
[01:17:56] Unknown:
or or That's what my viewpoint is, Ben, exactly. I think it's going to be the first fruits of the transhumanist notion here, the transhumanist movement. Because Christ is the first fruits of the transmutation of man into this resurrected body, into the the perfected body, the perfected form. So that's what this is. It'll be a knock off of it. And that's something people sometimes misconstrue. The the term antichrist doesn't necessarily mean against Christ. It's an alternative Christ. So it's going to be an imitation of what's been done in the name of Christ here. So in my view, I think people that are looking for the antichrist and they're trying to name specific human beings here and there, I think they're off the mark. I don't think that's exactly what it's gonna look like in the physical. I don't think you're gonna have a guy that just shows up on the scene as a slick business guy or whatever and is able to unify people and make peace agreements and all of this. I think it's gonna be a system, this system that's described in the Bible that's interrelated with all of that, and it's probably gonna be an artificially intelligent one that solves the problems to a certain degree or another.
Think about that. I mean, it's food for thought out there. So I don't think it's gonna work really well. Because that would have a perfect order to it because in in all reality, it would be one mind
[01:19:21] Unknown:
where, and I've said this for years that the the Jesus character that you guys talk about was was extreme chaos. And so the the, this would be the opposite of that. It would be the ordering of that. It would be anti of that. And and so if the, Jesus spirit or mind was freeing humanity to do things, then this would be the anchoring of such into a one uniform thing.
[01:19:56] Unknown:
It's the old Saturnian principle. It's the return of the Saturnian principle. If you look at it from the viewpoint of the, well, the Rosicrucians, the freemasons, a lot of the other secret society groups, and the occult fraternities, It's the return to the golden age in the age of perfect order and peace and harmony. That's how they view it, but see, Saturn can be a cruel taskmaster as well. And that's wherein there's problem because this takes out the equation out of the equation, the free will principle. And this was probably the most important gift that god gave us as mankind is the free will principle. So this is kinda cracking down on that whereas Christ is all about the free will principle and the individuation of man in his ascension.
What's coming that's antichrist is all about the collectivism, the the hive mind mentality, the order out of chaos. You see, this is one thing one thing that's a mantra of the secret schools, order out of chaos. And it it's all about this return to this golden age in the view of those occultists that are looking for this kind of a thing. But I I suspect that it's all going to look a lot different than how most people would think. That That we're not really gonna understand what we're looking at as it's happening, and that's my viewpoint. That's where I come from. Now there may be a lot of Christians out there that disagree with that and think, yeah, we're looking for the this peace to come in Israel, peace in the Middle East, and all of these different signs, and they're talking about the the sacrifice of the red heifer and stuff like that's been in the news cycle in in mainline Christianity quite a bit lately and about the reopening of the temple and the rebuilding of the temple and all of these things, but I don't think that's necessarily what we're going to see as the advent of antichrist. I think all of that is just symbolic in nature, and it's not going to be literally, physically what we see. And like I said, I do reserve the right to be totally wrong on all of that. I'll be very I'll be very surprised if we do see all of that come to pass just how it's written literally in the the scripture.
[01:22:12] Unknown:
But Well, there's, I mean, there's a bit of a a you I don't know. Kind of a break. Right? Because you're you're coming from, you know, like an American Christian perspective on it, and the people who are cutting cows are trying to bring about the. And so their their savior is the biblical antichrist. And, I don't know I don't know, like, who gets to yeah. I don't know if there's, like, a craps game or how it works out to figure out which branch of the rabbis get to pick the, you know, Moishak because they all seem to have, like, a different person selected. There's even people that have said it's Donald Trump and, like, put the silver crown on his head and went to work on the Sabbath for it too.
I don't know how that I don't know how that works. I really don't.
[01:23:15] Unknown:
I don't either. And, see, that's the complicated part. Nobody really knows how that works. Who decides? Who decides who's in charge? Well, that that's another concept altogether that's lost in this whole thing. Like, it it's really a convoluted mess when it comes down to it. All these different religious beliefs and systems and sometimes they they they mesh in certain ways and agree in certain ways and other times, they're totally at odds with one another. Now, what does this all look like when you look at the rabbinic side of things? Well, that's something entirely different because they have different expectations out of all of this than what Christianity has. So once again, you get back to this different bias or lens of observation for viewing all of these events that are happening right now.
So does it create this dichotomy? It certainly does, but there are a lot in of the Jewish faith now that are are coming to accept Christ as their messiah. These are called messianic Jews, and it's a big movement that's been happening a lot over the course of the past several decades. So a lot of them are coming to a realization and a recognition recognition of Christ as the messiah. So this totally changes things from the Jewish perspective in that way, but a lot of the the the rabbis and stuff, who are the ones that make that decision? Who are the ones that are going to perform all of this? And once again, this falls back on some very old principles and family bloodlines once again, and I think this is an important component to all of it because you see it's the the Aaronic priesthood that's supposed to be the ones performing the sacrifices and stuff like that. And do they have that lineage?
Do some of these rabbis have that lineage? I don't know. I don't have the answers to all of that. But, certainly, if you were to stick with the original old testament script of all of it, there was only a certain tribe within the priestly order that was supposed to do these things, to perform these rituals and stuff like that. So is that holding true? And and this once again falls back on something that I have a hard time trying to explain to other Christians too. It's this whole notion of this we're on YouTube. I don't know how much I should say, but there's there's this political state. Okay? We have this political state that does not necessarily reflect the old religious tradition in the bible of what this people group is.
So once again, this falls back when you look at Judaism or you look at the Jewish people. Is it a race? Is it a religion? Or is it a political state? And this is the question people can't answer. And yet a lot of mainline Christianity just wholeheartedly supports due to several scriptures that say, god will curse those who oppose the his people and though he'll bless those that hold up his people. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but this is essentially what's said in several different script scripture verses and stuff. And this is why mainline Christianity just whatever Israel does is good, and we should support them in all of that because they're well, they're they they you know what they say about that. I don't know how much I wanna talk about on YouTube. I don't wanna get you as booted off of there, but certainly I'm kind of amazed we haven't been spanked so far.
[01:26:34] Unknown:
Yeah. Well, we can get spanked in different ways. You know what? True. They can retroactively bend you over too.
[01:26:40] Unknown:
Oh, yeah. They've done that to me before. So, like, you gotta be careful what you say, but let's put it this way. There's there's a certain group that claimed to be chosen people of of a certain certain some other entity out there. So familiar with that idea. And and I think that's a completely different thing altogether than a political nation that's been put forward here. But there are some prophecies in the bible that have been fulfilled through the reinstatement of Israel as an actual nation and stuff like that. But,
[01:27:12] Unknown:
I mean, as far as They themselves are under some levels of psychological warfare
[01:27:17] Unknown:
as well. Certainly, we all are. We all are. And and that's that's a lot of what makes this such a difficult topic, especially when we're talking about it on a platform here where we have to be careful what exactly we're saying. We can't fully express our ideas or thoughts in the proper way, and that's all part of the psychological warfare too. And that's all been done on purpose in my view. It is a lot of the tactics that have been used by those people that do control this world, those darker cultists at the top of the power structure that truly run things in this world. Now you could argue the semantics of who you think they are all day long. That's not the important point. What the important point is is it's a small group at the top that control things. They understand the cult principles that the vast majority of humanity doesn't, and they leverage them against us all the time. And they use religion to play us off one against another.
Among other things, politics, everything, they they've got us divided on so many different levels on so many different things that it's it's just extraordinarily bad at this point. So that being the the case, I mean, even things like a debate, people, they they wanna see contention in an argument in a debate, but I think it's more important to find common ground with people at the end of the day. And we can disagree on things and still be civil with each other and agree on other things. So like I said, I I identify as Christian. I'm a Christian, and I see things through the lens of the Christian viewpoint. But I also understand things your average Christian doesn't from studying some of these other perspectives and angles of things.
And everything that I've studied from these other angles and viewpoints reifies my faith in Christianity all the more. And that's what most Christians can't come to terms with. They think that looking at this other stuff, somehow you're disavowing Christ. You're disavowing Christianity and walking away from it because you're you have the audacity to actually look at this stuff that we were told we shouldn't be involved with. Well, it's information. So in my viewpoint, as long as you're not practicing, like, the ritualism or all of the stuff that goes along with that, the principles that are associated with that, but you understand its machinations and how it works, you're not doing anything wrong, especially when it pertains to natural processes in this world.
Things happen how they happen in the natural world, and that's just a fact. And that's something you could bank on. Like I had said earlier, you could bank on the fact the sun's gonna come up tomorrow. Has there ever been a day that any of you fellows have been alive
[01:29:54] Unknown:
where the sun didn't come up in the morning and set at night? I I would bet my bottom dollar that tomorrow there will be some.
[01:30:01] Unknown:
Right. So, like, this is something that is lost on most most people in general and and Christians in particular. We we have certain things that we could see that are observable truths in nature, in the creation that we could bank on, and we could know that is a foundational truth that God, the creator, has put that here as a reminder to us. There are certain natural laws that operate in this world. There are actual truths that hold true no matter what your perspective is, and you need to understand those and work within the bounds of those. Because when you work against the bounds of nature in a destructive type process, that ultimately leads to your destruction.
And it's a simple concept really when you you look at it from that perspective. But largely, where we've gone as a culture, as a civilization, is we've tended more towards these destructive ideologies. Even our technologies we use. Look at the combustion engine. It's a destructive technology. When in all actuality, if we were to pursue out the old occult sciences the way we do our modern science, we would find there's better ways to do things that work with the bounds of nature. And there are discoveries that have been made and inventions that have been built that really reify that idea that have been hidden away by the power structure because it doesn't help them to maintain their control in this place.
So, therefore, we have just false synthetic ideas based upon that that they bring forward. Things that aren't necessarily sustainable or operational for any length of time, like the the green movement, if you wanna look at the example of technology. Like, all of the things that they're pushing and promoting, all this does is make the big oil companies all the richer because they're the ones investing in this. So they're playing both sides here, and they know the things that they're pushing and putting out there. They're they're not working in the way that they claim that they're going to work. But there are other better ways. I mean, all you have to do is look back at, like, the work of somebody like a Victor Schauberger who developed his repulsing engine. This is something that works within and with the bounds of nature that could produce energy and produce workable technologies, but that's all been suppressed. And you have to look.
A lot of this stuff's been suppressed for these types of purposes so that this this group that has instantiated themselves in positions of power could stay in control in this place. So I I think I diverged a little from the topic. But Oh, that
[01:32:46] Unknown:
is the the topic at large. It's the question of living in a world where there's misunderstandings about family bloodlines and conspiracy theories and people in dark robes doing dark rituals and magic. And then Christians are told, you know, don't participate in divination or tarot or rolling dice or playing guitar or, you know, having long hair or these sort of things. But over time yeah. So we we have seen the Christian church in America have a certain 19 fifties, and go back to 50 years, 1900, and then to 1950, you get electric guitar. And now every church has electric guitars and drum sets, and everything is like a YouTube rock concert, Coldplay worship service where you're standing there and just watching a concert. And people like to go to a mega churches because it dimmed the lights and then there's no personal accountability.
So then people say, well, I'm a follower of Christ and I have a fellowship and a bible study. Maybe that's a splinter cell. Maybe that's a FBI watch list or something. You know, it's like Christian nationalism is is a new scare word in, you know, when Trump is gonna be the big daddy president, king of all, then final president, this type of thing. But with the idea that there's, that we're trying to imminetize immediately faster, faster, faster, going to a a zero point in history where everything just implodes on itself. Is that part of the, the church tradition Balderson comes from the idea that there's a a age and then we go and it gets bad and then the calendar flips over and we go to another age and it's a little bit better. So we have to some people are gonna have to die. Some systems are gonna have to die. Some some businesses are just gonna have to, you know, be gone.
Google was not evil, but now they're a little bit evil, and now they're a little bit more evil. Are they just trending towards ultimate evil? This type of thing. When does it get better? You know, is there gonna be a rapture of the church? Are we in the did the tribulation begin in 2020? So now we're about 4 years into it and we got 3 years left.
[01:34:54] Unknown:
When do you get that respect? Yeah.
[01:34:56] Unknown:
I can actually see why the church had a thing against dancing. When I look at it historically, all the girls I know that got the most into music and it really touched them, they danced the most, and they also had no idea what the words were. So, like, half the songs that they were doing that to, like, those songs had some really fucked up things in them. And those girls are just in it. And it's really an interesting phenomena where music and then when you let the music really get to you, that
[01:35:35] Unknown:
Well, something really got to do this, man.
[01:35:38] Unknown:
Yeah. You really let the music get into you, then there can be more easily this the more subtle programmings that can occur that, you're not aware of and that really seat themselves because you're now really aligned with that, vibrating with that, and not even taking in the information that it's providing. Not consciously.
[01:36:07] Unknown:
But, Ben, see, there's the thing. You're you're speaking to something that's that's more of a subtlety that most Christians don't resonate with or won't acknowledge as being a truth. That that vibration and that frequency has an effect and that this archetype can affect your unconscious mind in a a certain
[01:36:25] Unknown:
way. They just know it's the devil's music. All of a sudden, Elvis Presley is out there shaking his thing around. That was the devil working through him.
[01:36:32] Unknown:
Right. And and, like, see how they they go back to the lowest common denominator with things, and they try to ultra simplify things. And that leads people to think, well, what is okay to do then? Is it okay to have any fun whatsoever? Like, a lot of this stuff that's come about in Christianity, especially, is all based on man made dogmas, and that's the problem. There's nothing that goes against that stuff necessarily mentioned in the Bible or in the scripture unless you take some stuff out of context and twist it and contort it that way. But this is what has been done through the course of time. And we have more man made dogmas attached to different Christian theology now than than what are core truths.
And this is why different denominations, they they put out their their mission statement or who they are, and they tell you what are their core beliefs that they believe in this Christian denomination as compared to some other ones. So you have all of that that happens, and a lot of it's just based on this man made dogma. And that's a problem that's come about too. And there's so many different denominations of Christianity now that are so different from one another that what's what's the commonality? What's the common ground? And that gets to be where there's so much argument and there's so much misconstruing. What does the scripture mean? There's so much misinterpretation of things, and there's so many different viewpoints that come into being with that. So that's why I think Christianity is a more divided religion than most of the other ones at this point. Although there's a lot of divisions in is Islam as well.
There's different viewpoints in that system that I'm aware of. Judaism, I think there's different factions of that group those groups too. So you have these different belief systems all claiming to be the same religious denomination, really, when it comes down to it's the same religion, just a different denomination of that. So some sometimes even these slight differences in the denominations can lead to more confusion. Who's right? Who's wrong? How do we know? Speaking to the whole notion of are we living in the tribulation? I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. I have heard people speculate that the tribulation began in 2020 and that we are at that halfway point. I heard Ben speaking about that, but I've heard other people talk about that. And some of them, they make some good arguments as to why that could be the case.
But the truth is nobody really knows. Nobody really knows. And will we know until hindsight becomes 2020 to, you know, point a phrase there and to From from our perspective,
[01:39:10] Unknown:
according to your, prophetic triggers, it seems to me the 7 years of world peace would be pretty standout. Like, you know, like, when we achieve a 7th year of world peace, when we achieve a 1 year of world peace, you know, I'm gonna be going.
[01:39:29] Unknown:
Yeah. Oh, see that that's the other thing, though. That's the other thing, though, Ben. Most biblical scholars and most theologians, they're don't say it's gonna be a 7 year period of peace. That's not what it is. That this peace treaty comes in the middle of the the tribulation. This is how most of the the Christian theologians accept it. So it's only gonna be be like a 3 and a half year period of peace because it's probably gonna be a year period.
[01:39:58] Unknown:
Peace. I'm gonna be going, what's going on around here? Yeah. Something's not right. So we are in agreement with that. The last 4 years have been a bit of a tribulation to to say that it's great or the greatest tribulation is yet to be seen. I mean, we still got a few more years to get through, certainly. What's the big end goal for a a man who's a Christian in his life living through these times? Like, what is what do you hope to see, afterlife stuff?
[01:40:26] Unknown:
Well, basically, you you wanna get into heaven. You wanna have that access to an eternal paradise where there's there's no more pain, no more suffering, no more crying, no more tears, and it's just perpetual joy, and it's essentially edenic if you wanna go back to the the comparison to the Garden of Eden. So you don't have the struggles. You have the the happiness and you have the reunification with all of your loved ones and stuff like that. That's that's the end goal is to get in there. That's what most Christians strive for. They just wanna get there. Doesn't matter where their seat is at the table. They just wanna get to the table there. So that's the the goal.
And what that really looks like on the other side, I don't know. I don't know. I have a lot of things that I don't understand. We all have a lot of things that we don't understand, and the truth of the matter is nobody really knows what it's like on the other side. That's the whole thing here. And a lot of people would argue there is no other side, this is all there is. I don't think that's the case though. I've seen too much evidence of spiritual realities to accept that this is all there is and even our mainstream science doesn't accept that this is all there is because they say energy lives on. And they've actually done some scientific research experiments to show that after your spirit leaves your body, it lives on, your consciousness lives on somehow as information out there.
And there's there's just so much involved with this. There's a spiritual side to this reality that we don't really see with our 5 senses or experience with our 5 senses, and a lot of it is based in faith. And that's an important thing, an important component to it. Now faith is a key fundamental for anybody. And if you have a basic understanding of your core traditions and your core religious values and you have that faith in what you're pursuing, then you begin to work towards that end goal, whatever that may be. And for most people, I think it would be we just don't want to cease to exist, right, when everything's all said and done.
I think that's a a core archetype and a fear that's inherent in humanity. What happens when do we take our last breath in this place? Where do we go from there? Are we really that which dies? Now I heard Ken Wheeler say something to the effect. Why do you think you are that which dies? And that's the big question we have to ask ourselves. Are we a body that has a spirit, or are we a spirit that has a body? When you look at things from that perspective, you have to understand that we're a spirit having a human experience here, a physical experience and not the other way around. And when you come to terms with that, then you realize there is something on the other side. And we don't really honestly all know what that is or what that looks like, but I would like to believe that there's a way we can get to that other side and have this peaceful type of existence, the the reconciliation of all of the brokenness and all of the the conflict that we have here on earth in this physical reality in which we live, this harsh school that we live in. And once again, a lot of this falls back on some of the old philosophic ideas and some of the old alchemical principles.
We're in this this harsh classroom of sorts here to learn different lessons and to grow spiritually, and it's in in a necessity that we're here. It's necessity and hardship, by just by the nature of this physical reality in which we manifest, and it's something we need to go through if we're going to have that reconciliation, that communion with God the creator at the end of it all. If we're going to have that peace and that transmutation at the end of that transformation into a pure spirit back to this this whole notion of wholeness once again because most people will acknowledge that we have some type of spiritual need, but we don't really have a good reckoning as to what it really is. We have this unction in ourselves to seek after that, but we have a hard time defining what exactly that is and where it is we're going and what we hope to achieve by that.
[01:45:04] Unknown:
So it's a lot of people will say that Christians believe that if you're not a Christian, everyone else goes to hell. Any anybody who who has heard Christ's word, who's heard the gospel message and rejects it and then dies, they go to hell. Is there any branch of Christianity or any Christian ideas that recognize other religious afterlives and say, well, Christians have our idea, but we can acknowledge that other, faith systems have afterlives that we can acknowledge and not have to deny their existence.
[01:45:39] Unknown:
Once again, that falls back on the whole notion here of what commonalities do we have with other religious structures and stuff like that. We all have some of these inherent beliefs. Now Christians, the mainline theology is Christ is the only way to get to heaven, and many will teach that, yes, if you reject Christ, you will go to hell. But who am I as a finite human being to define God's mercy? See, that's the big thing that I always fall back to. Our God is a merciful God. He showed us that he's a merciful God, and his desire is that none should perish, but all should come to redemption.
So how far will he go with that? And that's the whole question. Will we all be judged in this final judgment? And there are some certain theological teachers in Christianity itself that teach that after all of the final judgments, that man will be reconciled with God, and it's only the fallen angelic beings that will be cast into hell because that's who hell is built for. God did not create hell for man. So it's it's all a matter of what Christian perspective you come to with this. And this is the thing. Christianity is a very fragmented religion. There's so many different beliefs through so many different denominations and so many different teachings that theologians and scholars agree on and disagree on and all of this, then it makes it hard to answer these questions in an authoritative fashion. Now I've read and experienced and and studied a lot of this stuff. So I know some of the nuances from the different perspectives that they come at, and that that is the perspective that I think I've accepted in my spirit is who am I to try to rationalize or try to limit god's mercy for other people?
Like, obviously, he's shown mercy. So he can, at his discretion, show mercy to everybody if he wants to. He could give everyone a second chance. He is a god of second chances in my view. So in in that perspective in mind, then why wouldn't he perhaps give people a chance after they leave this earth again if they've made mistakes? So there's a lot of different contention that different Christians might have with that viewpoint, but certainly, I I'm not one to put limitations on god. And and that in my view is putting a limitation on god.
[01:48:21] Unknown:
Balderson, our rebuttal.
[01:48:26] Unknown:
Out of, a lot of that that was said, it wasn't the most recent thing. One of the, things I'd like to pick out a little bit is that, from the way I understand it, and if if I'm wrong, correct me, the the old testament, the majority of it was narrated by an angel. Am I is that right or wrong?
[01:48:56] Unknown:
Well, from what my understanding is, the vast majority of the old testament was attributed to being written by Moses.
[01:49:03] Unknown:
But it was narrated by an angel to Moses. Correct?
[01:49:08] Unknown:
I I don't know if that's necessarily the case. I don't know what if that's the the claim or not along with that. I know they say, and it is inspired. Inspired.
[01:49:19] Unknown:
Is the claim not supposed to be that it's Lemetitron who is the voice of God that if Moses was to actually receive the words directly that his human mind could not comprehend just the presence of God in such a way. And so this intermediary of Metatron by Metatron's own words had to happen.
[01:49:43] Unknown:
Well, see, that's that's something that, most Christians would take a little bit of conflict with, with you here because there's no mention of Metatron in the bible. Now this is a tradition that goes back to Kabbalism and to some of the other various systems. So Metatron in and of itself, this is not mentioned in mainline the theology or anything like that. It's just said that it's it was inspired, the inspired word of god that came to Moses, and that's who they largely they don't know exactly who wrote the old testament, but largely the, rabbis and stuff like that, they attribute the old testament primarily to Moses.
But they don't really make mention of how that information is transmitted. They just say it's inspired by god in the mainline biblical context. Now from extra biblical sources like what you're talking about here, you can argue maybe Metatron had something to do with this. And who is Metatron when it comes down to it? This is the transfigured Enoch, and this is a fascinating subject. And I'm actually I've just begun writing a book about this because there's 2 Enochs in the bible, and there's a juxtaposition between the 2 of them. And it's a fascinating topic for another day. But just to get back to the the main idea here, it's said to be inspired by God. The word that was given, that was written was inspired by God. It doesn't say necessarily how by the angel of God, but it doesn't necessarily name it Metatron in that. Now you might get some of that context from extra biblical sources that maybe it was Metatron, the transfigured Enoch who had something to do with the transmission of the information.
But that's a fascinating look from another perspective at another time, but most mainline Christian theologians won't accept that as being part of the narrative. You see, this falls back to what's accepted in the biblical canon and what's not, and some of that falls back to the council at Nicaea and some of these other early church councils that decide what got in there and what didn't. So most Christian theology will say that's not true. Or harmful. What's that? Do you think those were beneficial
[01:51:50] Unknown:
or harmful?
[01:51:52] Unknown:
Honestly, I think I think it's kind of a mix of both because some of the things it's hard to really interpret how they align with the main teaching of the bible, but some of it, I think, is harmful by by leaving it out because we miss out on so much context. So I I I do like the apocryphal works and some of the different things that go along with that. These extra biblical texts that offer more context into the events that were going on. So you could find a lot of meaning in it valuable information in that. So I don't disavow those things, but I'm just saying from the mainline prescription or Christian theologian perspective, they they they'll shut you right down immediately if you mention Metatron as as part of the transcription of of the the scripture to Moses in that case.
[01:52:45] Unknown:
I I can see where having it and not having it is both I I I I agree where it has its advantages and its disadvantages. As a heathen, very similar to pre your pry pre council of Nicaea, we have a collection of stories. And at some point in time, you had a council that went through and tried to streamline those stories and took the things that were a little more odd out of there, took and made compares comparisons between similar similar stories and, you know, tried to get to the heart of things, I would presume, and tried to make a somewhat streamlined, system, where in that, you do lose some things that maybe those were the wrong things to take out. But then on the same token, like as a heathen, one of the things that typically gets brought up is, some of the, more rugged, like, philandering and things like that behaviors that they attribute to Odin. But all of those things come from one poem which was the, lay of Harbard and that was a fleeting.
And a fleeting is literally like a shit talk contest, like a rap battle. So why would you keep that in the main canon? So that somebody went through and canonized seems to have some advantages, but again, I I could definitely see where it loses advantages also because now you now that you've made a canon, some of the things that you may have comparatively looked at, you're not gonna look at because there is a canon.
[01:54:31] Unknown:
Right. And that's that's the perspective that I come at with this too. I think there's been a lot of the information that's valuable that's been lost, but at the same token, there's also a lot of stuff that's, well, kind of like a a nonsensical side notion like what you were saying, like an ancient rap battle or something like that. It doesn't really make much of a difference and therefore it could be put to the wayside. So the the question is, was there some other ulterior motive going on with the removal of some of the content and the the putting in of some of the content? And I would say there's always motivation and motive behind these things and they're not always forthright with what the motivation is. I find it extremely compelling that the mainstream Christian Bible now consists of 66 books and you have to wonder why do they always come back to the same numbers and stuff like that. So there is intention embedded in that and I think some valuable information has been left out on purpose.
And I do think that mainstream religion has been weaponized against the masses in a lot of different ways and has been infiltrated by some of those from within the secret schools and from this group of what I would call the darker cultists who run things. They have infiltrated into the mainstream church and have disseminated ideas that go counter to what Christ's teachings were. So we have a lot of that going on, and this is where we fall back on the whole notion of man made dogma once again as being a problem with a lot of these different things. So not disagreeing there.
[01:56:07] Unknown:
Go ahead and say anything you wanna say, Steve, before you gotta roll out, brother.
[01:56:11] Unknown:
Yeah. No. I just I I gotta I gotta bounce out. But, Wayne, always good to see you again. And, yeah, just let me know when you guys are up so I can kill the stream, whatever point that is, but, have as much fun as humanly possible. And whenever you guys are, you know, done holding each other's dicks, maybe you can find something to argue about.
[01:56:35] Unknown:
You know, we've been trying, but, you know, Wayne's a a very intelligent dude and more open thought. So we're gonna but it it's been very excellent because, on the same token, it's good to have a grip of where they're gonna come at. The ones that are more closed minded, don't really think about things. There are still things I disagree with Wayne about that but it would take a lot of, individual, just him and I, and it would take more than 2 hours, I think, because
[01:57:06] Unknown:
Oh, yeah.
[01:57:08] Unknown:
Some of the things where where I did push back originally with the whole even understanding with the matter versus spirit, well, then if if if your spirit and you die and you're not that thing that dies, that thing that died was matter. And so then are you just spirit? And then is matter this mundane thing that's separate from you, and is it separate from God? And and so this is an entire problem that that now it bring it just re recurs back onto itself. And for me, this is because it's not a holistic system where the holistic system and they have a trinity, but they're not understanding that there's that that trinity as above so below has different levels to it. And so the level that we're experiencing it doesn't mean that's the entire creation level of it, and both things are happening.
[01:58:05] Unknown:
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. No. The, let's see. The dumb bunny way of putting that is, where it's spiritual beings having a human experience.
[01:58:21] Unknown:
There you go. And, yeah, I mean, that that falls back on Yeah. No. I got to go post. Alright.
[01:58:28] Unknown:
Have a good one, Steve. I gotta bug out pretty soon too. But, Whenever you're ready, Wayne. We aren't trying to hold you up. Just enjoying the conversation, brother. We don't do it often enough. Honestly, at some point, I think we'd like to bring you back on, but more on, a panels type thing where we're bringing in somebody else also that's, maybe, because there's quite a growing see I understand where like the ortho bros and things like that come from. I do. I understand that that when people were given too much freedom that they went the full libtard crazed we're going to cut off our our sexual organs and become other sexual beings and and do weird things with kids and just outrageous things nobody would ever want. I understand that given that freedom that some people did that. I get it.
So the I also understand that the knee jerk reaction to that kind of thing to seeing that kind of outrageousness is to, you know, similar to what Iran is doing every time the west steps up, it's, what they call freedom and and becomes more outrageous, the Iran seems to become more hyper conservative. And I understand that there's a, inside this movement in the United in the west, that there's now a counter movement that's hyper conservative. And the thing is is and especially, like, guys like you, I appreciate the Christians, you know, like, I don't have that whole pagan versus Christian thing going on at this point, and and it's not that I didn't have that at one point. But it's that especially the orthodox produces a lifestyle of people that I appreciate that matches the lifestyle that I do and the same with yourself. I feel like a lot of your views are more orthodox.
But, the and then obviously a lot of your views are exact opposite because you're very intelligent and open minded. So I think the orthodox strict is more for people that aren't very intelligent a lot of times because it seems like a lot of people need that structuring in order to not go off and rub their genitals and children's faces and cut them off and get other genitals and weird things like that, apparently. You know, that's that's just the world. But, it's just interesting. It's interesting, and I understand, and I appreciate the the quality of people that it produces as opposed to obviously solipsism or, you know, materialism.
I have no appreciation for the type of people that produces whatsoever. And so it's a interesting thing to deal with, you know. And and so I think that, some of these people that don't have is opening of a mind, though, that are, debaters such as, like, take Andrew Wilson or Jay Dyer or somebody along that lines. These are intelligent men that at least know how to express themselves. And yet at the same time, you see them fall into the exact same traps. And part of that I think is is the same reason that a cultist fell into the trap because too many of them quit doing the actual work, quit living the life. Because fact fact is is that most people don't live life. They live this caricature of life where most things that most of the people that we're talking about, the spiritual people that the the our ancestors, they fully lived their life. They didn't have somebody else doing all their stuff for them. They built their own fucking house. They planted their own fucking food.
Every bit of their life was very intimate for them. At this point, we got we can barely we got people that barely can wipe their own ass. So I no matter how high their philosophy is, when they're that disconnected from actual life, you're gonna go sideways.
[02:02:42] Unknown:
I agree. And that's one of my big pet peeves is you find this in the halls of academia, the high halls of academia. Like if you look at your average tenured college professor and stuff like that, honestly, a lot of them have never worked an honest day in their life. They they have no idea what it's like, what the struggle's like for the average person out there just trying to earn a living and and do things. So, like, I don't know. That's just one of my big pet peeves.
[02:03:12] Unknown:
Yeah. I think I'd like to bring you in as we debate some of those people, as somebody that's got the more open mind, even understanding that, you don't exactly agree with everything that we say and vice versa, which is great, especially in a debate panel. But, we agree on too much to have a very active debate debate against each other. But I think in some of these other, arenas and, also, we would like to bring in some occultists, and whatnot to have some debates. And obviously, those occultists are primarily gonna be, new age, Theosophical Society, types that both of us are absolutely against.
So, you know, I think that, so that's part of why we're just jabbing. All of that to say that's part of why we're still jabbing because I I do it despite being very different, religions and whatnot. Wayne and I get along very well and have very similar mindsets and enjoy each other and the same with Marcus. So I would like to we would like to at least, at some point, invite you back on a panel where we're you're on more of on our team at least. Or,
[02:04:20] Unknown:
Yeah, man. I'd love that because here here's the thing. I I think a lot of times if you get, like, these theosophists and some of these occultists and stuff, they don't really know what they believe. Yeah. Sometimes you have to tell them if they haven't done that, like, the thorough reading and stuff like that, and they'll just hand you what they've been taught. And this falls back again. They haven't done the work. A lot of them have just taken at face value what their teacher told them, and that's the end of it. And they accept that as fact in what they're doing, and and this becomes problematic when you begin to really thoroughly research into these organizations and know that they admittedly lie to their own lower level members because they don't want them to know what they know. Like, they'll they'll teach you everything you know, but they won't teach you everything that the the master knows. You know? So Yeah.
[02:05:12] Unknown:
Well, and then also won't tell you that the master hasn't actually achieved usually the gift that the end goal that they're that they're representing. So you're supposedly through your, you know, funding and energy helping push this master to this end goal, at which point then they will bestow that on you. And so they they're they're giving you something. They are promising you something they don't even freaking have. It's
[02:05:42] Unknown:
broke. And it's it's based in in deception, most of it. Yeah. And that's a lot of the problem. And that's how they they keep these members, like, strung along here. They keep telling them, hey. Well, I'll I'll reveal the next secret to you and such and such. And when you come to realize, a lot of them, especially the new AG versions thereof are mostly charlatans, then you begin to understand a few extra things about it, the things they're telling you. They might take some good salient points, a part of the valuable information, and then it's that 10% of poison, like I said, that they always do. That's the point that that really leads people astray. So oftentimes, they don't know what they're getting involved with, and they haven't really done the deep research and see where some of the change points and the teachings have come from. And that's something I do all the time. I'll look back and I'll find, hey, This certain person back in such and such a time era in this occult fraternity changed up what this original idea meant and inverted it from what its original meaning was. And they do that in so many different ways, and you could point this back to a couple different people. Well, more than just a couple. There there's a bunch of this that goes on through the course of time, and you see how it gets contorted. And then that gets taught forward into the modern occult schools today, and they accept that as being the true and accurate assessment of all of it when in fact it's the inversion of what the original attention was. So that's where it becomes convoluted.
[02:07:13] Unknown:
I like convoluted. Just shove everything in a bug out bag. I was gonna ask you, what do you have in your bug out bag? And do you think that there's gonna be boots on the ground, World War 3, Russia, Red Dawn attack, China take over this sort of thing? Is is there, doomerism? Do you have a black pill? Do you have a white pill? What do you think of, like, nihilism? And, you know, does your face give you hope to that none of this matters because you're gonna go to heaven?
[02:07:39] Unknown:
I have an extreme amount of hope. And, honestly, I I've I've come to the realization. I mean, the way I see it from my viewpoint, we've been actively involved in World War 3 since at least 1954 in my view, and it's a different kind of war. And we were even warned about this in the bible. Jesus told us on in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 24, you'll see wars and rumors of wars. Now a lot of Christian theologians and scholars looked at this concept of rumors of wars. Well, what is he talking about here? This is a different type of warfare than what we're accustomed to. This is domestic warfare. This is economic warfare. This is what's been happening in our society for a very, very long time. So in my viewpoint, I think we've been actively involved in World War 3 for a very long time, and it looks different than what people expect.
And I don't think we're necessarily gonna see boots on the ground. It's just they've used so many psy psychological operations and everything against us. We're so beat down that we don't even understand what's been happening to us. They've they've used this against us, and I'll cite I'll send people over to look at a document called silent weapons for quiet wars to have a little bit of a better understanding of this because it absolutely reflects the truths of whether what's going on in society today and how many of these things have been weaponized against us and how we have been just victims of this type of thing. But as far as having a plan or something like that, learn to do some things on your own.
Have some valuable resources on hand. It doesn't hurt to have gold and silver as actual physical currency to have in the event of an emergency. I would recommend make sure you have food. Keep at least 3 weeks worth of food on hand in case of emergencies. Land, owning land, that's an important asset to have too. Being able to grow your own food, being able to build things, have tools, some basic tools so you could repair things, build things, learn some basic skills for survival so that should something happen, you're you're still gonna live, have a source of heat or something that doesn't depend upon electricity to operate, and you'll be good. I I mean, you're talking just basic having basic survival things on hand and having some basic resources available so that they can't starve you out. That's the important thing, and you you should be fine. I mean, as long as you have some type of skills like that and some types of resources available, that's what's really valuable when it when push comes to shove. But I I think they're just gonna keep siphoning off off of us the way that they've been for the longest time. It's just going to escalate to a different level once they get digital ID and everything put in place. And that's that's what their next goal is.
So in order to stab that off, I I I my whole thing is is to stab that off as long as possible. So do things like actually pay cash and shop local and do those kind of things to kinda stab this off and stop giving away your information freely out there. I mean, easier said than done. You know? I mean, we're here on the Internet right now. It's it's been a valuable resource and tool. No doubt about it. But the way it's been weaponized against us, that's the problem. It's the people that control the development of these types of technologies that's the problem. So we have to be aware that it's dual use technology being used against us and they collect all of our information on the back end of all of it. And they could use that information in ways that we scarcely understand, to learn things about us that we don't even know about ourselves, and that's something that can be weaponized against us. So we need to be aware of that, and we need to just do our utmost to do common sense things so that should there be an emergency, we'll be okay. So have a heat source that doesn't depend on electricity, whether it's like a wood burning stove or something like that, have the to own land, maybe have some physical assets like gold and silver that you could use in an emergency in a pinch and be able to fend for yourself, like, grow some crops or something, grow some grow a garden. I have a garden out here that we put in this past summer.
Didn't do well this summer. It's been much too wet, but you have to have something, so that if something does go down and you can't have access to goods or services, you'll be okay for a while. So just simple things like that, and I have an immense amount of hope. I don't think that our generation is is gonna just go quietly into the night. I think maybe the future generations, like our children and grandchildren, it might be a little different story because they they've never existed in a time without the Internet and all of these different things and this interconnectedness, and they won't know how to function. But, like, I don't think our generation's gonna gonna accept much of what they're trying to roll out.
[02:12:54] Unknown:
No. No. We don't. And it it that this whole thing seems to be happening in a quick hurry right now. It really
[02:13:06] Unknown:
does. And that that quick scramble doesn't seem to be effective, and you talked earlier about hierarchies and, you know, world governments and these things. And they seem to be infighting amongst themselves as well as if they think that somehow they need to get on top before a great reset or a cataclysm, a flood, or an asteroid, or meteor shower, or something to that effect. But if they're all going into their own bunkers and they have underground cities and mountains and things like that, it's like I I think that they are just as afraid as anybody else and probably more afraid. And then looking at recent news of people with, wealth on Forbes list and things and addresses being released, this is this part of the script, part of the plan to to get people to go after other people like a class warfare thing?
[02:14:00] Unknown:
Oh, most certainly. It's it's it's a whole psychological operation going on, and and that's something that I noticed with this big news story that's been going on in New York with the the CEO that was murdered in cold blood and stuff like that. There's there's so much to that, and I'm actually gonna do a show Friday night on FreeWorld FM talking about that because there's just There isn't just a there isn't a a a laundry list of oddities in that one at all. Yeah. That's for sure.
[02:14:31] Unknown:
So mainstream people going, this makes no sense. Like yeah. Yeah. It don't. Get used to it. Get fucking used to it. No.
[02:14:44] Unknown:
It's only gonna escalate now, and and that's the problem. I mean, we we see more and more of this type of stuff going on. And the more incredulous that it sounds, the more people are eating it up. And you'll notice that news coverage of this particular thing is over the top for for something like that. More more than when,
[02:15:03] Unknown:
an attempted assassination on a former president, potential president happened. More so than that, that was like a blip in the news cycle. They made freaking like a blip.
[02:15:17] Unknown:
Yeah. But they're drawing attention to this one, and there's a lot of myriad of movements as to why. But
[02:15:23] Unknown:
at any rate, I do have to go, gentlemen. It's been a pleasure here. So for those of us who want more Wayne McCroy, where do we get more Wayne McCroy online?
[02:15:32] Unknown:
You could go to my website, www.alchemicaltechrevolution. Com, and it has links to everything I do on there. And if we want you offline, do you have paper books? I do. I do. They're available through Amazon, or you could find them at pretty much any other They fit in stockings if people wanted to stuff stockings and put them in some trees. It depends how big the stocking is, I guess. But much appreciated, gentlemen.
[02:16:00] Unknown:
It's been Much appreciated. Your time there, Wayne, and, we love you, brother. And wish you luck with everything you got going on with your new books and everything you got coming out.
[02:16:13] Unknown:
Yeah. It it it's it's something. I mean, the way I write books, I I I'm all over the place. Like, I I I sometimes I'm so disorganized. It's it's amazing I get anything done, but, certainly, I I appreciate being on here, and we'll do this again
[02:16:32] Unknown:
for sure. Yeah. So I got then we'll bring you back on. I think we're gonna try and get some occult panels going and bring you back on on that to rep you represent the Christian side of things and, the more, again, what a lot of people don't even understand is that there was a a schism inside the occult world with the the, theol theosophical society and things like that that this was a schism in the occult world. And a lot of people don't understand that your older occultist, not your new age occultist. It's before that that match nature, which matches most of your religions, where the more new age y stuff does not.
[02:17:14] Unknown:
Right. And all of that was actually mostly pushed and promoted by freemasonry in the mid to late 1800 into the early 1900. And a lot of this was put forward that way, and then splinter groups broke up. Like you said, the theosophists, the the different branches that came from the Rosicrucian stream of information
[02:17:34] Unknown:
that came forward. A lot of it was Did you see our, our German episode, brother? No. So we got this, a cult Germany episode of weaving spiders. We got to talk to this guy who is as you know, he is like, he's friends with all the old occultists. Like, he knows he's one of them. You know? And because of his expertise, he got access to the original documents that the Rosicrucians used to start their order. And him and his wife retranslated them, and he says he's going through the letter, which is the red letter of provenance in order to start out as a society.
And he goes, at the end of the letter, it's, signed by a woman and my wife and I are in shock that this is signed by a woman. And they said specifically because in German, verbs, if you use a verb like, if you use a verb, that verb's gonna have a masculine bent to it as a man. If a woman uses a verb, it has a feminine bent to it. So there's depending on who's speaking about what's being done, the verb has a masculine or a feminine. Well, he said through the whole letter, the verbs were masculine, and then he gets to the bottom and it's signed by a woman. Like, and he goes, we're just in shock. So that whole thing was entirely forged.
The Fraulein Spranger who which who was there basically because at the time that the order started up, if you didn't have a German occultist to basically vouch for you, you didn't have anything. And so she was the German occultist vouching, and she doesn't exist, and the letters were written by a man.
[02:19:24] Unknown:
Fascinating stuff. But, yeah, I mean, you could understand where a lot of, like, really sketchy stuff has come from then. Just understanding that and how many more forgeries and stuff have been documented in that way and how much has been misconstrued and mistranslated as well, and that's a lot of the problem with all of this stuff. And you really have to go back, compare and contrast these different things, and that's what I do. I look at the different systems. I look at the different secret society groups, occult orders. I see what what do the theosophists teach about this? What do the Rosicrucians teach? What do the freemasons teach? What does the OTO teach? And if you could find commonalities between that, then you could find a core doctrine and trace it back, actually. And that's what I I spend a lot of time doing is tracing back some of the core doctrines and seeing where some of these changeover places have happened.
And a lot of it in the modern era goes back to a particular time period, and that's the mid to late 1800 is where that all comes from and stems from. So this is when with the advent of the Theosophical Society and these different groups where you have some key people reapplying new meanings to old ideas and inverting them, and this has happened quite a bit. And this gets pushed forward, and this becomes where it's based in the inversion of what the original intention was. Like, if you go back to as old as stuff as you could find as far as the works of alchemy and stuff go, you find it's truer to nature. It's truer it's more geared towards good and good intention.
And when you trace it forward, you see how it becomes twisted and how the alchemical stream of knowledge shifts at a certain point and goes towards the bad. Now a lot of this I think has to do with particular agendas and goals of certain people that wanted to maintain their grip on power at certain times, But it's hard to really trace what was the reasoning behind this, but a lot of it, I think, has to do with certain people wanted to have an advantage over others. So they've taken these ideas and weaponized them in different ways, or they've been so distorted in their own viewpoints that they actually believed the inversion process that they put forward.
And and that's what goes on. Scary. It is scary. They've become so dis dis what what should we say? So distorted in their viewpoint, so overwhelmed with what they think. They're high on their own so hubristic. They've become so hubristic in their own power and their own viewpoint of things that they've attached these different meanings to stuff. And they a lot of this goes back to ritual magic and stuff too, which is a very real thing. But at any rate, yeah, we'll have to discuss this stuff some other time for sure. Appreciate it. Brother. We will get we will get a decent occult debate going, and we will bring you in.
[02:22:35] Unknown:
But we thank you for your time. And with that, we love you guys. Steve's got control of the off button, so Marcus and I will keep entertaining you for a minute, and we'll let Wayne go.
[02:22:44] Unknown:
Bye, guys. Thanks again. Be well. Thanks, Wayne.
[02:22:50] Unknown:
And Marcus and I will just be asked for a minute. Did you have any more wire wraps to show anybody? What's that? Did your wire wraps to show anybody or the art that you I I do have some wire wraps that I can show on. Crafts? Oh, Steve said weird. I'm backstage. So he's probably just gonna shut us off. I'm not gonna get up and do that. So we love you guys. We will figure out what we got going on. I've been in talks with Marty Leeds about getting something going. So we'll try and get some more occult, angled debates going and try and get some more argumentative
[02:23:39] Unknown:
type Christian debates going. Yeah. Leave some comments for some controversial topics that you want us to cover or maybe making statements that we can, you know, agree with or disagree with or argue in favor or against
[02:23:54] Unknown:
if maybe returning to the more structured format amongst just those of us. When we get somebody that we, are gonna debate that's gonna be a bigger, you know, like, a well, not that Wayne's not a big guest, but somebody that we're gonna be a more controversial debate will go back to a structure for sure instead of like this. This was more of a discussion debate, with very little debate.
[02:24:17] Unknown:
So when does this phase. So we're uncovering We're in the discovery phase. And if there's any fellow mites out there who wanna come and talk to us about what we've, misrepresented
[02:24:27] Unknown:
in terms of their 90 threes and their 30 threes and their 60 sixes and the numbers, and then we're all It would tickle Marcus Pink if you could if if if any of you tell Mike will come on here and argue with us and try and represent you're a cult. But with that, you can go ahead and kill it anytime, Steve.
[02:24:45] Unknown:
Pull the plug.
[02:24:51] Unknown:
He said he's backstage. This is great. Just sit there and just stare uncomfortably.
[02:24:58] Unknown:
Do you have any cats that I can sing a song? I was gonna call him Josie and the Pussycats. Do you have a pop band?
[02:25:03] Unknown:
My name is spooked,
[02:25:05] Unknown:
and I'm a kid. Someone wanted to adopt a kitten from the Balderson family. What's the process like? Is there a long application list? You can't have spookums.
[02:25:15] Unknown:
Maybe Bob. Yeah. Bob. And any number of the other 50 cats. Bocum says my Bocum says, obviously. Right? He's my buddy. He's my Cat says. My podcasting buddy.
[02:25:32] Unknown:
Yeah. So if Russell Brand tells you that these may be the end times, probably not the end times.
[02:25:39] Unknown:
Probably not if Russell Brand's saying it. I wouldn't listen to too much, he says.
[02:25:45] Unknown:
That's true. And what's Pierce Morgan saying? There's a lot of big talking heads.
[02:25:52] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Andrew, Vietnam Pierce was pretty interesting Pretty interesting to watch. He, definitely tore some people up. These mainstream people do not answer questions, and they're just full of shit. And there's a reason that they don't let it's kinda surprising that he's gained enough popularity that he can interact with some of these people because he's gonna put them right to the fire, and they don't like that. You know? I think they're out of ideas. I think the mainstream people are just like,
[02:26:22] Unknown:
we don't know what's going on. No one's telling us what the playbook is, what the plan is. Maybe at some point, they'd get in a few hours, maybe a few days heads up notice of what the big event is gonna be, but I don't think they know anymore. I think that's part of the excitement. So these, talking heads on traditional television, the mainstream media, the M5M, I don't think they have any idea of what's going on. So they can't talk about what's going on because there's certain things that they can't talk about that would explain why they can't talk about things.
[02:26:56] Unknown:
Well, and I think there's been such a they didn't expect a hard shift to the right that's happened. They didn't expect, the people to reject things as harshly as they are. They thought their little operation was just going along swimmingly. And so I I I think with that, these mainstream, productions have lost so much of their credibility and so much of their viewership that they're feeling like they need to delve into other areas. And it's a super interesting thing to see all around because I I don't know what to say about it because, his show's not that big. I mean, it's big. Don't get me wrong.
You know, comparatively to a lot of things, but it's not that big. And these mainstream news places, it's like, was anybody ever as big as what they claimed it was?
[02:27:49] Unknown:
I I really just don't know. What's with TikTok as well? The inflation of numbers, and now TikTok is maybe counting down until it's gone in America.
[02:27:59] Unknown:
Yeah. Is that a real new story? So I'm saying, were all these numbers always just horrifyingly inflated? Because you can't you can't really find anything that's, like, when Andrew Wilson, he says he's, like, the 3rd most super chatted thing on YouTube, Well, he's only got, what, like, a 100,000 subs, 120,000 or something like that. There show all kinds of shows with millions of subs. How are you gonna have millions of subs and you don't draw the same kind of support that a show with a 100,000 subs does? So that just tells me that a lot of these shows, they're just showing up with some bullshit, numbers. Oh, Steve's killing it. Love you guys. Don't have to listen to us anymore.
Or he's not and just is fucking with
You win. You're metal, dude. Dudes, 9, 38, 7, 33, 2, 1, fight.
[00:00:58] Unknown:
Yo.
[00:01:04] Unknown:
Hey. We're all getting there. That seems StreamYard still has no idea how long it's going. Problems to wait.
[00:01:16] Unknown:
StreamYard Seems like this week, a bunch of shows that I've watched or listened to have had problems with different apps and whatnot this week.
[00:01:26] Unknown:
So, Ryan, some molasses freezing. The syrup is dripping slower.
[00:01:32] Unknown:
Is it? Is that it?
[00:01:33] Unknown:
It might be it. I don't know. I have to check the plumbing,
[00:01:36] Unknown:
the Internet of tubes, a series of Internet of tubes. Is it the scissor? Because I got that lean in it.
[00:01:43] Unknown:
Could be. Could be.
[00:01:46] Unknown:
Hey, Nicklas.
[00:01:58] Unknown:
Well, I hope everybody's doing good tonight. I hope you enjoyed dead air. I don't know.
[00:02:05] Unknown:
Waiting waiting for the wafers to show up.
[00:02:08] Unknown:
Right. You wanna put me on, the main screen for a minute while we're waiting for Wayne there, Steve? Oh, sure. Make me big?
[00:02:16] Unknown:
Yeah. Can do. Can do.
[00:02:21] Unknown:
While we're waiting, it's a fine time. Christie has been working hard and has gotten all of her products ready. So this one is vapor soothe.
[00:02:33] Unknown:
Right as you start, Wayne shows up.
[00:02:35] Unknown:
Right. The vapor soothe is, you know, a menthol rub. Everything that Christy makes is all natural, essential oils, other oils like that. This one's like, like an icy hot type thing. Really neat. She's real happy with it. The cayenne pepper is actually what's making the hot, which is pretty neat. It's very interesting. It's a pepper and mint. So like I said, it's kinda like an icy hot, addition to, like, her, comfort cream that everybody already knows. Burn Banish. This one's primarily essential oils and works magically. Sometime we'll make a video with Brian's burn videos or Brian's burns and what it did for that and the original comfort cream that everybody loves.
Just go ahead and email me at odinsalchemy@gmail. But she's got all these ready for the season and especially for the vapor soothe. My grandkids use use it like mad. But, with that, well, welcome, Wayne.
[00:03:52] Unknown:
Gentlemen, always a pleasure. How's it going?
[00:03:57] Unknown:
Doing well, man. Good to see you again. Good to see you, brother. I didn't I didn't change I didn't change hoodies either.
[00:04:07] Unknown:
Hey. It's all well and good. I wear the same hoodie all the time. I I I just have this one comfortable one. Perfect.
[00:04:14] Unknown:
Not my girlfriend's house. I have 2 here total.
[00:04:19] Unknown:
One of them is mine.
[00:04:21] Unknown:
You wanna do that? Oh, 3 here total.
[00:04:25] Unknown:
That is the adventure of podcasting is not having to worry. Have I I'm not sure what that means. 3 streams in a row. No one sees you. Wayne, I think you'll be interested to know that, my podcast app. I use antenna pod on my Android, and they gave me a year in review. You were my 4th most listened to podcast, Ultra Chemical Tech Revolution.
[00:04:48] Unknown:
Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Good to go.
[00:04:52] Unknown:
Good stuff.
[00:04:53] Unknown:
Yeah. So
[00:04:55] Unknown:
where, where would you like to, start point on this debate? Where are you gonna feel, feel comfortable with that Wayne. Basically, you know, we're obviously going to talk mostly about Christian versus, more of the heathen and the occult world. And, so where do you wanna go with this and jump off? Where do you feel comfortable, brother?
[00:05:22] Unknown:
Actually, I'm comfortable with the entire bounds of all of it. So it doesn't really, I I know that kinda is counterintuitive to a debate format, but I I could I could take any type of stance on it. Primarily though, I I'm a Christian, so I I'll take, like, the the Christian stance on things. I I'm well versed in a lot of Christian theology and that kind of thing. So
[00:05:49] Unknown:
Excellent. Excellent. And do you think that, the Christian view is opposed or counter to a cult?
[00:06:02] Unknown:
Well, see, that's the thing. If you ask one of the mainstream Christians if it's counter to Christianity or if it can actually have a part alongside Christianity, they'll be totally opposed to it because they've been indoctrinated into not accepting any of this stuff and not looking at it, being afraid of it. But it's been my experience that just like anything else, there's a lot of good valuable information to be called found in the occult side of all of this stuff. And that's that's how disinformation works too. It's 90% good information and a little bit of poison mixed in. And that's what I always try to caution my listeners. There's always just a little bit of poison inserted in all of this stuff because largely what has happened is it's been hijacked by a group of well, I call them the darker cultists who run things in this world. And what they've done is they've inverted some of the old alchemical principles that were originally intended for good and for good understanding of how the natural machinations of the world work. And they've twisted it and turned it upside down to try to turn it into totally something totally synthetic.
So that's that's wherein my viewpoint comes in. But it doesn't disavow Chris together. The hats of these people. They're they're pretty full of themselves. They they think they're How big are their hats? How big are their hats? Well, they have big hats too. They they have capuchin, monk hats, and stuff like that, but they they think they're smarter than what they really are. Let's put it that way.
[00:07:30] Unknown:
Sometimes they're large and square.
[00:07:38] Unknown:
You'll have to excuse me if I pause frequently and take a drink or something. I still have a nagging cough going on.
[00:07:44] Unknown:
Not a problem, brother. You don't gotta worry about that at all. What do you, what do you think of the recent, by recent, you know, over the last 6 months, some of the things being said by Aman Hillman.
[00:08:04] Unknown:
I'm not familiar with Aman Hillman. So
[00:08:08] Unknown:
Well, he's a he's a a Greek classicist. So he, he's not exactly a a translator, but basically what we would consider, you know, a translator for a for a layman. They've got something where they work it down to where it's different divisions of such things. So he's an expert in Greek anyways, is what it translates out to. And, he's got a whole series. Some of it is, really far out there, really far out there. And then some of it, even when I'm watching other, biblical scholars, ones that aren't of the biblical bent necessarily, but more of the scholarly bent. So they're just looking and then also they're looking at other works, so they have a better wider range of understanding.
And they aren't disagreeing with some of the things that he says, such as, Jesus getting caught before his crucifixion in a park with a young boy, and he's naked. And, but it it's not. And then supposedly, and again, this isn't my area of studies, so this is just something I've seen on a podcast, but Hillman's got all the credentials. Used to be a a a a teacher. Some of his more, you know, wild interpretations of things or whatnot, have gotten him, you know, kinda kicked out of that community. But, he says that, Jesus was saying when he got arrested, I'm not a child toucher person.
I'm not I can't remember which words are supposed to be used on eBay. Damn it. Right. I'm on YouTube. I'm not that type of person, you know, and he was yelling that at them. And, from my understanding, he wasn't. That wasn't. Although, from what I understand, sometimes Hillman does make that association, but, that he was actually in some ritual and that the boy was not supposed to be his sexual partner, but was supposed to be, the person that was holding the antidote for the poison that he was about to ingest. And then they came in and arrested him, and he died early on the cross actually, because he was poisoned. So this poison, there is supposed to be a certain number of days they expected you to suffer up on this cross, and he died early. And this poison was part of the reason for that.
And because he was he didn't get that antidote for that because he didn't finish the ritual that he was involved in. And that's something about a purple. So do you know anything about any and the purple's supposed to be part of the drug. Like, that's, like, apparently the most extreme of drugs. Just purple.
[00:11:25] Unknown:
Well, what I could say to that is they a lot of people have actually considered Zecharia Sitchin an expert in language, and much of what he has translated has been ripped apart as not really aligning with what's presented there. So I could just tell you that up upfront with that. I haven't heard this particular take on things, but I have heard some similar takes that are traditions in Theosophy and in some of the Rosicrucian teachings. Now they teach that Jesus actually founded a secret society and that the 120 people that met in the upper room were the core tenant of his secret society and that he was trained in a lot of the Hermetic science and arts in his youth, and he traveled to India. What country would he have been in during that? Well, they said he trained some in Egypt, and then he traveled to India and all of this. And nothing that's really documented. This is not proven. This is just a tradition that's been put out by some of the secret society groups, and there's really not a lot to back that up from what I have seen. Now I'm not an expert in any of these ancient languages by a far stretch, but it seems to be when you have one person who comes seemingly out of the blue and begins to make these types of sensational type claims about something that's not really documented anywhere else and doesn't really seem to be
[00:12:48] Unknown:
something that's been passed down through academia for any length of time. You have to question Apparently apparently, it is actually accepted in academia, and he says so and this is actually I've watched a few guys, including guys that don't agree with him, but they do agree with this part that that some of this is actually true, just his bents on it are not necessarily true. So the but the biblical sense, they have their own thing that they that they don't get out of. Like, part of the thing this, Aman Hillman had a a a big kinda, like, scholar battle. You know, between him and what what's that Kip's last name, Marcus?
[00:13:32] Unknown:
Are you talking about a gnostic informant?
[00:13:34] Unknown:
No, Kim. The the guy that got the Nobel Peace Prize for Hebrew.
[00:13:39] Unknown:
Yeah. Let's see. For ancient Hebrew. Kip, Davis.
[00:13:43] Unknown:
Kip Davis. So him and Kip so, again, this isn't these aren't this guy's not like a nobody, and he's agreeing. This is Kip Davis. And they're saying a lot of things that the church scholars don't say. Like, Kip Davis says that Christianity was a polytheistic, tradition at one point in time, and quite a few other things. He says that, a lot not all the Dead Sea Scrolls, match up by any means. He gives real art. He gives real long lectures about it, and he's he agrees with a lot of what Hillman's saying. This Hillman goes, like, way crazy with some of it where he basically
[00:14:29] Unknown:
like, like, perhaps maybe there is something there in the record, but he's taking it way out of context is what it sounds like to me. I haven't listened to what this guy has had to say. I'm not familiar with him at all. So I don't know if I can make a fair assessment based on that. But from what I know about traditional Christian theology and what I've been taught and what I've seen, I've been a student of eschatology and Christian theology for a very long time. That doesn't sound like anything that lines up with anything else I've heard, even in some of the apocryphal texts and even some of the other things that have been recorded. So I I don't know what to make of those types of claims.
Now maybe there was something going on that may have been misconstrued through faulty translations and stuff through the course of time. Because like I said, we have in the biblical because we have to translate different for different languages. I'm sorry. The Dead Sea Scrolls the Dead Sea Scrolls was the primary,
[00:15:27] Unknown:
target of the arguments.
[00:15:29] Unknown:
Okay. Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls, they seem to have a lens of gnosticism in them and that's only one source of information from biblical times. Now it is one of the sources we've come across, but the Dead Sea Scrolls, they encompass a lot of different things and there's a lot of different books of the Bible that have been left out of the Bible and there's a lot of different teachings that were accepted by the early church that aren't talked about in mainline Christianity. But they, in fact, they have a whole set of the Anthenesine fathers behind me here on my bookshelf.
The the writings of Tertullian and some of the other early church fathers and stuff like that. And there's nothing like that that I've seen in any of that either, discussing those types of things. So there's a lot of extra biblical sources you could look at too to try and verify those claims. Like I said, I'm not an expert in languages by a long shot. I barely have a grasp of the English language, I'll be honest. But but certainly, like, there are certain things that that I know in the biblical tradition about what was written and how many various translations through languages through the course of time have happened. So we only have this point of view that we come from now. So we have all these barriers in our way, time and space as being those barriers and cultural differences and things like that. So something that was recorded may have been misconstrued, and it sounds to me like this guy kinda takes things to an extreme sensationalist type viewpoint just to try to draw attention is what it seems like to me.
And maybe he's got something to his claims, maybe not, but it doesn't sound to me like it aligns with the scrutiny that I'm used to with Christian theology and with the traditions that have been brought forward. Now academia, for some reason they have a bug up their butt about Christianity in general, and they do everything in their power to defame it. And a lot of that also derives from some of these secret society groups too. Although they call themselves Christian in their tenants, many of these secret societies display an antichrist type spirit within them, like they are very much contradictory to Christianity.
But there's a lot of valuable information that aligns with Christian tradition too, and that's where people miss the boat with all of this, especially Christians who have been indoctrinated into not accepting, like, any of these occult types of readings. They're afraid to look at it, like somehow it's gonna contaminate their mind or their spirit or something like that if they take this information in, if they understand the information. And that's where I take a different stance on things than most Christians. I'm not afraid of the information.
I'm not afraid of the knowledge, but I do acknowledge that knowledge by itself is not the source of salvation and that's not the source of how you grow spiritually. That's not the case at all. Doesn't hurt to have that knowledge, but this is, like I said, this lens of the gnostics that shines very much through the Dead Sea Scrolls and some of these other records that we have because a lot of that comes from the same types of groups. It comes from the Essenes and various cults that arose around that time. So when you look at it from that observation point, they have a bias that that is inherent in their writings and you can't take that bias at face value necessarily as totally factual. It's their interpretation that is applied to it. The same could be said from these different secret society groups. And that's why I study the writings of all this different stuff because even the mainline Christian Church and what's taught theologically in the seminaries and stuff like that, that also has a bias.
And I acknowledge that as well because you have to understand everybody has their own particular biases towards this information. They have their own lens that they see it through their own accepted modicum of facts that they accept as their reality. And anything that comes up contrary to that creates this cognitive dissonance and that causes a problem for most people. But once you learn to try to separate out what are my feelings about this, what are my beliefs about this, and what are the facts, what are the interpretations, what is the lens of bias that this source brought forward with this? When you understand that, you begin to see a lot of information that corresponds from so many different sources, but they're looking at it from a different vantage point. And I think that's why you and I get along so well, Ben, is because we see things from that different vantage point, but we see the same thing essentially when it comes down to it. And that's where we need to find common ground with a lot of this stuff. And most Christians, sad to say, are so closed minded to all of it. But I'm beginning to see some breakthrough in that community with a lot of this stuff too. They're beginning to maybe be a little more curious and to maybe understand, hey. There's there's more going on here in the background with all of this than what we've been taught in Sunday school.
And they're curious and they wanna know some things. And some of these occult fraternities are a valuable source for information because like I said at the outset here, it's works like disinformation does. It's 90% good information and 10% crap that they put into a lot of this. And it's the 10% crap that you have to be skeptical of and you have to have discernment for and you have to be weary of. So that little bit of poison in there is what you need to avoid and that just takes time and experience to be able to develop that discernment and to be able to pick through the information, find what's valuable, and find what you think is not necessarily something true or valuable.
So it sounds to me from all the different resources that I've studied this stuff from that whatever this guy that you're talking about here is presenting doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny, but it does kind of reinforce the idea that perhaps Jesus formed a secret society group of his own, which there's really no evidence for. But there are those claims that have been made that came through this lens of Gnosticism from the Essenes and from other later groups. And that's the other thing you have to wonder, what are the source documents, what do they date back to the Dead Sea Scrolls? They encompass a lot of time, the scrolls that have been found. So I mean, it's one of those things and like I said, I am not an expert on language, I'm not an expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls necessarily, but I do know things from my observation point, from what I've studied, what I've read, what I do know, what I have taken in, and what I've experienced.
So when you apply that, then, it doesn't seem to me like what you're telling me this guy is claiming stands to scrutiny, but I would have to actually listen to what he's saying and maybe go back and check his sources to find that. And that's not something I I was even prepared for here as far as that goes. I I never I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hold you to an argument you don't know anything about. We're just kinda feeling around right now for
[00:22:35] Unknown:
points of possible contention, you know, where we could enter into a a a debate scenario. Oh, I could argue with the best of them, I guess, but I mean Yeah. Oh, if you know nothing about it, you know nothing about it. That's just a fact. And I and maybe I didn't know if maybe you had gotten the same information from another source. Because like you said, he's not the first one to make some of these. Some of the claims I've heard him make are he's the first one I've heard make, but a lot of them, are are not. The the purple thing and whatnot, he's the first one I'd heard that. He says it's, I think, a derivative of a snail, extract compound that's, most likely a har harsh hallucinogenic, I would assume.
[00:23:23] Unknown:
Yeah. Now something like that. I mean, that might be feasible that there may be such a thing. It's it's hard to say for sure, but what exactly is that? I don't know. I've heard similar things. I've heard that I've heard people have actually said to me in the past, hey, dude. All this stuff you're talking about, it's all just because of mushrooms. And I'm like, no. That's that's not an educated point of view. But that's the the point of view some people come at it with. They claim that all spiritual experience and stuff like this is derived from drug use, hallucinogenic drugs and stuff like that. And that's where mankind has gotten these ideas. And in my view, all that does is uphold this hyper materialist paradigm viewpoint of the world that's been presented to us through our modern scientism. It doesn't really do anything to help man on a spiritual path. It's not helpful, and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny because there's so many things that can't be explained in spiritual regarding all of this
[00:24:20] Unknown:
through just the use of some type of a substance. So by the way get a a portion of it in the drug use because no matter what path it is, when they have a a spiritual extraordinary spiritual experience, the common element historically, if you're not looking at the the possible drug usages, the common element is extreme duress to the body. So whether it's native Americans sitting in a sweat lodge, where you're just baking yourself and dehydrating yourself to the point where you start having hallucinations because of it, or you're, the the, sun dancers that would sit out in the sun and poke, you know, eagle talents through their chest. And, you know, no matter which society it is, you put yourself under some fairly extreme physical duress, which is gonna cause you to, again, have have hallucinations, release chemicals, hormones.
So I think that, a lot of your people that are more interested in using drugs think that that's the only route that it can happen at. And I think that there can be some, spiritual experiences through different, ethnogenics and whatnot, but I think that that's mimicking, a much more natural, the the reason that these people were very few that had that experience is because not many people live through such horrible traumatic experiences. And so through that, they also gained some spiritual wisdom because, you know, they kinda entered that realm.
[00:26:06] Unknown:
Alright. So if if I could just jump in here Yeah. Go ahead. For you. Love to hear what you're saying.
[00:26:12] Unknown:
Couple of different couple of different things that, we we can look at for this. You guys familiar with the book Be Here Now? Heard of that book? No. I'm not familiar with that one. Huge with hippies. It was written by a dude, one of, like, Timothy Leary's buddies, back in the day named Richard Alpert who changed his name to Ram Dass. And, and Be Here Now was one of the books that he wrote. But, in the late seventies, early eighties, he goes over to India, and he goes and he meets with, you know, some guru like that. And the guru had reached out and was interested in trying LSD.
And so he meets up with him, and the guy's like, did you bring the medicine? You know? That's what he called it. And Ram Dass is like, yeah. And then he pulls out a vial, and he was gonna give him a couple of drops. And the guru snatches it up out of his hand, downs the bottle. And about 10 minutes later, he's like, I don't know. I got a little bit of a headache. Anyway, this this would would help people perhaps see or be near God, but it won't let them talk to God. That that was his interpretation, of LSD, which, you know yeah. There's people who have taken DMT a number of times and, receive what's, like, colloquially referred to as a download.
But, again, that's a one way conversation that you know? So I would I would lean towards saying you can have spiritual experiences, but you cannot have, you know, being to being conversation and understanding the way that, you know, people who have been spiritual adepts have said that they have had.
[00:28:32] Unknown:
So then follow-up with that. Another question maybe for Wayne here as far as drug culture in Christianity and churches. There's the the sacrament the communion. And is that cup wine? How much do they drink? Do they get drunk off of it in church? This type of thing. Is there a use of alcohol that's accepted in Christianity?
[00:28:54] Unknown:
Well, here's the thing. Most modern churches, they just use grape juice in place of the elements. They understand it's a symbol, especially if you're in, like, some of the, Protestant churches. I don't know if it holds the same for Catholic churches. I know they hold a different type of an attitude as to the symbolism of the bread in the cup of the elements of communion. So it's all a matter of the different denomination of Christianity as to what their interpretation is thereof. But most of them that I've seen, especially of the product bent, they accept that it's a symbol. It's a stand in, and they don't usually use wine in any of their services. They'll just use grape juice instead because they don't openly promote alcohol.
But, I mean, anything in moderation is not necessarily sinful. I mean, in the biblical days, they that's what they drank primarily was wine. Now as far as intoxicants and stuff like that, I understand and I agree maybe sometimes using these types of psychotropic drugs and stuff like that can give somebody a spiritual experience, but in my view, it's a shortcut and you're not gonna get the full experience that way. You're just getting kind of a preview of the other side. It's a one-sided conversation much like Steve was talking about. So it's not the same thing. It's a synthetic knockoff of the real deal. But people are always looking for a shortcut, and they're always looking for some type of a way to have that experience without doing all of the hard work that goes into that.
And that's where it becomes problematic. A lot of people start to depend on this as a crutch. And then you have the other side of this. Maybe it does open the doors of perception for you to experience some of these other worlds, but you don't know what you're looking at. And that's a lot of the problems. So then you have this phenomenon of machine elves and other things, if you guys are familiar with that. If you looked at Rick Strausman's work on the DMT Yep. It's fascinating stuff. I I'm fascinated by it, but, like, certainly, I I think it's a very one-sided view of things, and people do experience
[00:31:05] Unknown:
a sort of communication, a meta communication. Let me jump in here while you're explaining that and get just with another question to get you to further explain it. What do you make then of the vast number of people, especially on like a DMT type substance, that experience the machine L to the point where that's a known reaction to it? Another one is the, the Panther spirit that comes and is very harsh and, you know, delivers wisdom that's supposed to help change your life and does so in a not friendly way. Like, is there's nothing sunshine's what and you look at meth users.
Meth users often experience the same spirit. A lot of times, they're not cool with it, that they're combating that something that's, you know, against them that they're afraid of. Oh, you're crazy, descriptions that are similar, you know, just spot on. Different parts of the country, different parts of the world, all that are using the only key element that's the same as the drug is so what what is your you know, please incorporate that.
[00:32:19] Unknown:
Okay. Well, what you're describing as far as some of the negative effects of this, like the negative spirit that comes forward, this is known in occultism as the dweller of the threshold. This has been something that was discussed by Manley P. Hall and others in the different fraternities. And this is actually part of a much more harsh initiation process, a synthetic initiation process. And and this is the important thing. I mean initiation is one of the keys that these secret society groups push and promote. The problem is what they've done is they've taken a natural phenomenon that occurs individually for each person in a different way and they've incorporated it together into one formulaic process.
So they give you this synthetic form of initiation, this one size fits all initiation ritual, and this violates the natural order. This is the inversion principle at work, and this is why all it serves is this secret society group. And that's the problem. It serves the secret society group, the brotherhood if they wanna call it that. And it's not the real deal. It's a cheap knockoff. So that's a lot of the problem and that's one of the reasons why they use these substances because it's a type of a shortcut they could take to maybe get a little bit of spiritual insight, but they're not getting the big picture. They're just getting a view into the other side of things. And this does not replace one's personal relationship with the creator and that's a lot of the problem.
So a lot of people are looking for that. We yearn for that. That's inherent in our soul that we yearn for God. We yearn to know our creator, to have communion with our creator. And so sometimes we go about seeking that out through all the wrong avenues. And this, unfortunately, seems to be one that has been around for from cultures from time immemorial where they found these certain substances that maybe get them that experience, but oftentimes you'll find that there's some type of a negative connotation attached to that. And that's wherein this whole synthetic initiation process steps in. That's why there's commonalities. It's all based, in my view, in an archetype, in the archetypal energy, the archetypal spirit associated with these things. Now this is known as the dweller on the threshold when you get that negative hit there. It's supposed to actually help you grow spiritually, but it does it in a really harsh type of a way according to the occultists. Now I don't necessarily know if I agree with their assessment on that. I think this is a negative attachment or a negative entity that seeks to lead you astray and lead you more towards the hyper materialist paradigm because you'll notice a lot of people that use these substances to have a spiritual experience, well, they seem to think in terms of modern scientism in the hyper materialist paradigm to its cause and effect sequence here in the physical world.
You see. And that's kinda how they view it. And they can't have that experience without having used that substance or gone on the spirit quest or some such thing like this. And there's a lot of cultures that have adopted this and have ritualized it. And what this does is this creates this artificial synthetic form of initiation and it creates this process. You may get some type of a spiritual experience from it, and it's not all negative, but there's usually a negative attachment that goes with that. But that's not replacement for a one on one relationship with God the creator. And that's wherein there's a distinction between those things. You can have that without having to use the physical substance to get there. You don't have to go through the doors of perception in this way. But as far as some of the other aspects to this, there are real archetypal energies at play that sometimes people when they use these substances, they experience.
And that's one of the important things. It's it's fascinating to think about because there's a whole set of spiritual realities outside of our 5 senses that we don't understand. And sometimes, this could open the mind in just enough way where you experience some of that. You can see into that a little bit and get a taste of that. And what does that do? That gives you more of a yearning for that. So that's why people oftentimes will repeat the substance use in this kind of a way, and it's been really abused. I mean, some cultures have kind of regarded this in a sacred type way. I mean, you have your vision quest and stuff like that in some of the old cultures where they use this, and this is part of their initiation process that they go through not to take away from any of that stuff. But what we do find is there's commonalities on the other side. So that that expresses to me that there are real spiritual worlds out there that have certain elements to them that we can see and experience and maybe know some things about.
But our view of them is through a mirror darkly as the Bible describes things. So we often don't necessarily see things how they really are on the other side, but through our own bias, our own lens of observation. And that's wherein things get really confusing for people because they report different things, but they have a lot of similarities to them because it's describing a common thing from a different perspective. And that's where all this really breaks down into the individuation of the spirit of man. This is where we are different from the other creatures that we see around us. We have this individuated spirit. We see things through our own lens of observation.
We have our own experience. We have our own I am within ourselves. And it's through this lens of observation that we we can view these things, especially spiritual things, and it looks a little different than what somebody else sees. But there are the commonalities, and that's wherein we find common ground. And perhaps we could put aside what is our belief about this? What do we feel about this? What can we know as a fact about this? And this is where I find the whole conversation of machine elves as a fascinating thing because it's something that's been reported in scientific types of ways through experimentation by Rick Strausman and and some other folks who actually delved into the research on this. Like, real world research, they found these common data points in all of this from people from all different walks of life that they couldn't explain aside from their perhaps being something really there.
And that to me just gives verification. Yes. There is a spirit world or there are multiple spirit worlds and we can't really deny that, although modern scientism would not view it in that way. And that's wherein we see a lot of this cognitive dissonance kick in in society at large. And we have different traditions and myths and religions throughout all different cultures that view a lot of this stuff through different lenses of observation and therefore, sometimes they'll demonize it or or talk badly of this stuff. And other times, they they put it on a high pedestal.
But it's all a matter of being able to separate yourself from what is your feeling, what is your belief, and what can you know as facts. And being able to separate those things out, then you can have a clearer view. You can put it all into one little box of observation and see the similarities between things, the commonality. Because there are commonalities. And I would suspect the reason for this is because there is another side. There is the spirit. And all of the different traditions have held up this viewpoint from time immemorial. But I'll let somebody else talk now.
[00:40:15] Unknown:
Well, if you 2 aren't gonna talk, then I'm gonna try and take this in a little another direction because we agreed too fucking much on all this. Like
[00:40:23] Unknown:
Yeah. I I was yeah. I was gonna say, like, Wayne, that's great that you want commonality and common ground and everybody to, you know, hold hands around the campfire. This is a debate show, kid. So
[00:40:36] Unknown:
we're gonna Yeah. Maybe I'm the wrong choice for a debate show. I don't know. I I No. It's it's not because, also,
[00:40:42] Unknown:
also, also, we are trying to pick some fights with some ortho ortho bros. So we need to have a better grasp, at least myself. I don't have the greatest grasp of Christian theology and whatnot. So at the very least, we're getting that. And and and it's abs and we didn't expect this to be a harsh debate at all. We're waiting the arthro bros, we're expecting that to be quite a bit harder.
[00:41:10] Unknown:
I'm gonna call Ben a queer in 27 minutes.
[00:41:13] Unknown:
Yeah. That's, Yeah. That's how this is going down. And then it's been as harsh as it's gonna get. So when, we were discussing it for a lot of Christian theology, their god is external to this to this place, us. It's an external, being that isn't actually of this place. It created this place, but is not of it. And I talked to you briefly about that, and you said yes and no. So let's go into that further, because that's that's gonna be one of the biggest sources of, difference between, a true occultist that's been actually studying things like as an alchemist where I look at the all. And so there's an all encompassing system.
And from my perspective, and this is part of the way I think that I can understand where I also think that, Christians are polytheists and they just don't know it. They actually just don't understand their entire system because most of them, there's levels like angels and then angels have different levels and then they have saints, they have things like that, and they understand that those beings have power. And, like, as a as a heathen, Odin is not the first being. While Odin may have created man and created this place, he didn't create everything. He's not the all, and that's understood. Odin has a father and a mother in fact. So he wasn't the first being, so there's an understanding that Odin isn't the all. The reason that we follow Odin is because he's the all father, which was a path of understanding and walking that aligned with the all.
At least the father's side because we can't understand the mother's side. And sometimes when Christians speak, I feel like they're following the all mother, especially the ones that feel that their god is separate from this and does not have a physical body. This to me then is the all mother, the Gunungagap, which is what gives the life to the physical side, but it is not of the physical side. The all father is the physical side. And then sometimes I feel like depending on which Christian's explaining it and which parts of the bible, and this is part of the way I think that they just don't really study their own stuff very well. Because sometimes it's the sulfur side of things that they're very, it seems like they're worshiping.
And then they're against in taking sides on a polarity of the sulfur side and the salt side, which is why, like, Billy has been changed to vile and it's demonic and things like that and it's vile. But, so they've entered a polarity with that and started taking the sulfur side of things. But then sometimes, like I said, if their overall understanding is is their god isn't has no physicality, but somehow, gives the soul to this physicality. And there's the other thing, then the soul goes back to the their god to their god once you die, but then what the physical part just is like, I don't know, trash. It just floats around, and it's not of god anymore. It's just useless now. I I don't fucking know.
Like, so go ahead.
[00:44:50] Unknown:
Okay. Well, there's a lot to unpack there because well, I'll be honest. Most Christians, they don't really question a lot of the what they're taught, and they don't really delve deeply and understand their own religious mentality with a lot of this stuff. And that seems to be the stereotype that has taken hold in modern Christianity. They really don't explore those ideas or to the depths of what they are. They don't understand the concept. Now when I've talked to you previous about this, Ben, you asked me, is God external or internal? And I said yes. So it's both.
God is both. And here's where the Christian line gets drawn with this. And this is the simplicity of what most Christians are taught. Okay? They're taught the creator is not the creation and that this whole notion of the the one, the universal one or or the all father, this kind of notion is worshiping the creation. That's what they're largely taught in Sunday school and stuff like that. So anything that opposes this notion of God being external to the creation or not necessarily being the creation itself is counter to what they teach. So that's why they'll say that all of these other religious arguments or philosophical arguments argue that the creation is the creator and that's not necessarily the case. That's not how they view it. We do have this source that we come from where everything has manifest from that is not explainable and is not really something that the human mind could comprehend.
So that is God. So God exists outside of and throughout all of creation. And that's my viewpoint from coming at this, from studying it from all angles for so long because God is within and he's also without. It's an external God, but it's Christ in me. And that's what they teach. Excuse me one minute. Apologies that cough once again that I was speaking of. But, so it's it's God within, but also God outside of the bounds of creation. He's not bound by this creation that we exist within. And that's where in the Christian viewpoint comes in. They view God as being something separate from the creation. So that's why you get this simplistic answer from most Christians. No. God is not the creation. Because everything else that they're viewing, any of these other systems they're looking at, they view that as worship of the creation rather than the creator. And that's where, in, a lot of confusion sets in because a lot of them don't really question that down to the core as they should and say, if we look at the natural world, we see all of these different truths that resonate. Things always happen. You could bank that the sun is gonna come up tomorrow. Let's put it that way. That we know.
But most Christians will say, well, God could stop the the sun in the sky if he wants to and make it not move, and he's actually done so in some of the books of the Bible and the stories in the Bible where the sun stood still for a length of time. And we have some of these older traditions in myth that say the same thing that at one time there were there's a Chinese legend where that one time there were 9 suns in the sky and that the the mythological archer archetype that is their god in that system shot them down with an arrow, shot down all the excess sons with his arrows. I forget the name. Excuse me. But, like, we have some of these traditions that go back, and that kind of relates to the whole question here again. Is the creation the creator?
Well, no. But we are here in the creation and we are part of this creation. And God, the father, the creator, interpenetrates and reacts and works within the bounds of his creation that he made here, and he interpenetrates it on various different levels. This is the the realization I have of things. He's not a God that sits afar off, and that's much of what's been accepted by a large portion of Christianity today. It's called deism. If you're familiar with deism, they teach that in the beginning, God created everything and he wiped his hands of all of it and just now he lets it go. And at one time, he he would perform miracles and and make miraculous interventions and things,
[00:49:25] Unknown:
but we don't see that anymore. That was only for that time. Yeah. They say that they they say there's arguments that a number of the founding fathers were deists.
[00:49:35] Unknown:
Yeah. I've seen that, and I'm familiar with that. There there there's a lot of deism that goes on in freemasonry too, and that's probably where that comes from with the founding fathers. So you have this deistic attitude where God created everything. He set everything into motion, and then that was it. Then he put it on cruise control and walked away from it. That's not my viewpoint. I've seen too many miraculous things happen in my life and around me to accept that God does not interact with his creation anymore. I certainly do understand that he does. So it's a different viewpoint entirely. When you have this being, I guess you could say, or this entity, this intelligence, however you wanna view God, this force, that's what they like to call it in the secret schools, the force.
Not just in Star Wars, it's it goes through it goes way back through their secret doctrine, the force. But at any rate, however you view it, God interacts with the creation still, and he helps move things along sometimes in certain directions. Even though he can and does exist separate and outside of it, he also exists in it. It's kind of a paradox and it's not something the human mind can fully comprehend because we are finite limited beings. So, therefore, it creates this way of thinking in these simplistic terms. And that's where most of Christianity comes to grips with it. They say the creator is not the creation and therefore, if you're keeping something that aligns with create with the creation being God, then therefore, that's not correct. So it is the actual
[00:51:11] Unknown:
the actual material isn't God. The actual material of this material world is not God. Like, the enlivening force of the material, the thing the the the enlivening essence of things, the life essence of this place is God, but the material of that makes up the place, the the the inanimate material is not. Is this what you're saying?
[00:51:41] Unknown:
That's not what I'm saying, but, like, I'm this comes back to the separation of spirit and form. What is spirit? What is form? And we're talking about matter and, of course, that's derived from the word mater, which is the same root word for mother and matrix and all of that. So you have this physical plane in which we exist of matter, of dense matter here, and is it truly a dead entity? I don't think it necessarily is. It is inbreathed with life, but how much of theological viewpoints approach it is they like to look in forms of spirit being the more important portion thereof.
So people are seeking a spiritual path and they they seek out this spiritual reward on the other side of this life when they get there. So they kinda disavow a lot of the physical here. And of course, we do exist in this physical world and it's very hard to navigate sometimes spiritually in this physical world because we are kind of affronted on all sides with different types of experiences that some would call sin, where we are exposed to sin and we have to react to this. And how we react to this reflects in spirit, and it's not something that necessarily is comfortable for us in physicality here.
In physicality, we have this physical animal nature in which we exist and this would be what we would call the fallen state in Christianity. We're fallen. We've we've entered into this state of original sin through the original sin of Adam back in the Garden of Eden and we exist in that and we walk in that and we have to make reconciliation for that. So in order to do that, we're given the intermediary which is Christ. And because of Christ's sacrifice that he made on the cross, we have been reconciled in that way. Now here's the problem with that. We still continue to sin even though we're reconciled for that, but we are forgiven of that because Christ lived a sinless life here and it was through his intermediary process that we are able to have this free gift of salvation. That's essentially what the core of Christianity is. He came here. God so loved the world. He loved us so much, and he saw us in our fallen state because he gave us the grift of free will and we screwed it up.
But he loved us so much that he made a reconciliation for us. So he sent this way for us to be reconciled to that, and this is essentially where we're at as far as that goes. Now this doesn't truly answer the question, is physical matter dead? I don't think it is. I don't think it's separate from the spirit. It's all interwoven together. And that's the thing. We try to simplify things
[00:54:41] Unknown:
in this I'm trying to find where creation is separate from God. Right. I'm trying to find where that separation point is. And and you're not making it easy, Wade.
[00:54:56] Unknown:
Well, see, that that's the thing. How do we find that type of separation point? We we truly can't because we're more limited finite human minds.
[00:55:05] Unknown:
So for me, from an alchemist point of view, here here's what here's what what we've got going on right now. Okay? So from an alchemist point of view, the way creation works is you've got a a a sulfur side, which is fire, a salt side, which is ice or stability. Now the fire side is your is your, unstoppable force, and your, ice side is your movable object. These two things don't wanna meet, and they they won't. They're they're polarized against each other. This is where the all mother comes in. Okay? Now the all mother pulls these two things together and forces that thing to happen. And where these two things meet is where life appears. So the all mother creates destruction and then life, that spark that spark that happens where these two things collide. That's the all mother's fault. She's the one who brings the life and the death.
We can't access the all mother because we live in a physical reality. So in order to and and the all mother is not quantifiable or weighable. So the only understanding that we can have of the all mother is through reactions that we see where her touch happens in the physical realm in order to try to quantify it. Now when you start stating, these things like a dissension, which I understand, You've got the fallen angels, the fallen things like this. So this is where I this is where I believe you guys switch over to being sulfur worshipers. Okay?
Because from the sulfur side, everything's a dissension to the 0 point. Now from the other side, everything's an ascension. So everything that rises when you're looking at it, and this is one of my disagreements with the modern more modern, occult, is their elemental system where it's fight where it's, fire and water meet to create air and then the 3 coagulate to meet to create earth. That's just fucking nonsense, and you can't even make it happen in a lab. And so earth is the 0 point. If you go earth, water, air, fire.
So water level, gas level, plasma level. These are levels of chaos. Then if you go underneath the earth level, there's also levels of stability. So when you look at things in an energetic point of view, like, I I I the under level would be your conductor and up here would be your energy, And the two things need to go together to make something happen at this zero point right here. So if I have a superconductor, which is a conductor that's vastly more stable and more ordered than every other conductor, and I have this super fire, then those two things together work in absolute, you know, unison and just like magic.
And everything else is dirty levels of that in between. Well, we live in this absolute mix in between these two things in this zero point. So when you say things are descending and becoming evil with this dissension, this makes me think then, and again, this is where I end up falling with all Christians that you guys are sulfur worshipers because now you've taken the polarized sulfur side and said that the salt side is evil and everything in on that dissension down is evil. Well, from the from, again, from the the if we look at it more like, the sulfur side is, infinite potential, and the sulfur and the salt side then is gonna be your fight is gonna be your your absolute, is gonna be the actual movement or the the thing itself.
So it's gonna be the material. So if my potential is to build a house, I got this much material to build said house. These two things meet in the middle. I have a fucking house. Right? So you so you guys are taking this side up here and and negating this side down here when from the from the stepping back from the all port perspective, these two things are just polarized sides of the same thing that ends up meeting in this 0 point. And the all mother is the thing that gives all of it life, and I can't fucking figure out where you guys stand.
[00:59:42] Unknown:
Well, see, here's the thing. Mainline Christianity does not acknowledge things on an alchemical level like that, and that's wherein it's problematic. Now in my research and what I've experienced and what I've studied, what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. It really does. And this would be wherein you would have the concept of the Holy Spirit. Now this is the intermediary place. Now most Christians will say, no, there's no feminine side to God. There's no female aspect to that. There's no feminine component. But if you look at it logically and you look at it through the alchemical lens, the Holy Spirit fits that bill.
And that's wherein there's this difference because we have that connection. This is the intermediary that we have now. We had God the father and God the son who he sent here to earth, who took our place and made the propitiation for us and made the way for us, and he sent us the gift of the holy spirit in his place when he ascended back up to heaven. See, there's the ascension principle there again. So Christians are seeking the ascension principle more or less and they're trying to stay on that straight and narrow path for that ascension. But in the meantime, they're disavowing things that are necessary components of our experience here on earth as negative.
We go through a lot of crap here. Let's be honest. We all go through crap. And I mean, the Bible makes it perfectly clear. We're not gonna be without problems if we give our lives to Christ. We're gonna, in fact, probably have more problems because of that. So we have conflict and we have all of this and this is part of the purification process of man. We're conflicted with this sin element and we're conflicted with troubles here on this side in this physical world. And the problem is most of Christianity doesn't focus in the physical in any way. They focus towards the spiritual and they're missing an entire component of our existence here. They're living in the now. They live in the future and that's the problem. We live for the future reward.
And that's wherein I see a problem in Christianity myself. We don't try to live in the now. We don't try to make the best of our situation now. We don't try to do what I would call that spiritual alchemy in the now where we transform the bad and the good. And that was Christ's mandate for us. That's the example he said. You take the bad and you make it into good. That's that's essentially what we go through. Now there's whole different levels of this physical reality in which we live and how the interaction of the energetic or the spiritual side and the form side, the the matter side, the matter component all interact.
And it has a lot to do with this electromagnetic dynamo that goes on in this place. So there's provable energetic principles you could look at and equate back to religion, but most people don't want to actually look at science and religion together as the same thing. They've created this false dichotomy in thought and that's wherein I think we've gone wrong because you always have the religious debate. You always have the the creationists, and you have the evolutionists. And what if it's a little bit of both mixed together? And these are just polarized opposites on the same path here that we see.
And that's why you have people who are on a spiritual path that will disavow everything scientific, and you have people on a scientific path that will disavow everything spiritual. And this is wherein the problem is, in my view, especially with modern religion, not just Christianity, all religions. They have this same kind of idea. They they stick with a lot of their traditions and they disavow the science and then you have the science side disavowing the religion because they can't see mutual ground on certain topics.
And so, therefore, it causes this dissension and this rift in people's belief systems. And the thing is, if you come at it from the proper perspective and you know a little bit of each of these different systems, you can see how all of the components line up and how they agree on more things than they disagree with. So that's why I say, like, looking at this occult information or the alchemical information, the viewpoint that goes with that does not contradict Christianity in any way. If anything, it actually reifies it all the more when you really start delving into it and looking at it. And most people don't take the time to bother to do that, and that's a travesty of the modern age.
We don't have people who are thinking for themselves or trying to work this stuff out or striving for this spiritual path. They're just going along to get along. They're living their day to day boring existence. I got bills to pay. I gotta go to work. I gotta I gotta take the car down to the dealership to get an oil change. I gotta go do this. I gotta go buy groceries. I'm tired. I think I'll turn on the TV and watch the football game. This is how most people exist. They don't take the time to really think deeply or clearly about anything, and that's all part of the spiritual path here. And that's all part of what goes hand in hand with this whole seeking and yearning after God, after this relationship with God, the creator, and having a better understanding of this creation of which we are a part.
So it's it's really a sad indictment of Christianity in particular and religion in general in this world because they all fall under these same type of systems and most of them can't tell you why do they believe what they believe. They've just been indoctrinated with it from a very young age for the most part. They can't tell you why that they believe this or why they have this notion that this is true and certain other things are false. They can't tell you why, and that's a that's a sad indictment of people in in general. They know what they believe and they believe what they believe, but they can't tell you why they believe it or or what it is that's that has convinced them so thoroughly of it. And that that's a point that I think more people need to focus on. And there there's an entire philosophy in Christianity called apologetics that addresses some of these things.
And I don't like that term, apologetics, but it is the term they've given to it because it gives it a negative connotation. It's like, yeah. I'm a Christian. Sorry. I I believe that the, you know, God created everything, that it's it was God that created everything and not just everything always existed and poof, all of a sudden, nothing exploded and became everything. Sorry. I I don't know if that's, like I don't think that's a good term to use for it, but they there are Christians that have come at this from those different angles and tried to explain things through the lens of the the Christian theology that's present and through the the text of the Bible and everything else to bring that viewpoint out. So I look at stuff from all different angles and all different systems, and I've kind of incorporated it all into my understanding of how the the world works and how the universe works. So I I don't know if I'm necessarily the right Christian to bring the point of view of what your typical Christian in the modern church would tell you as to why it is they believe what they believe and what exactly they believe. I don't honestly think most of them know.
I really don't. And and I've talked to a lot of even pastors and priests and stuff, they don't know why they believe what they believe or they they can't back up other than quoting a Bible verse or something for you. They go back to that all the time, but they can't explain to you, like, why. Why do you believe this and, you know, what is this notion? And how about these other traditions that say different things about this? So that's why it's important to look, especially at some of this stuff that's been hidden away by the secret priestcraft behind the scenes for generations. That's It's why it's important to look in the occult fraternities and secret society groups and see what it is they teach at the highest most levels in these these different organizations because a lot of the information, like I said, is good information and it's valuable, and it gives you better context in understanding where certain religious traditions came from, where certain religious ideas came from.
So that's why I explore all of that. But I'll shut up again.
[01:08:28] Unknown:
I think it's kind of been a very one-sided conversation here. Oh, that's alright. We're Okay, gentlemen. Digging into to some of your thoughts here. I like that you mentioned apologetics, and there's there's maybe a branch of men online called the Theo Bros. They have a idea that there's a church fathers that they wanna return to, going back to some of the earliest documents and they're getting into them. Maybe well, let's move into this idea of apologetics, and you mentioned the evolution versus creationism type of a dialectic. There's a lot of silly arguments within the umbrella of Christianity that divides Christianity.
The further further subsections, if we go back to, like, the scopes monkey trial, the idea that, you know, there's a common ancestor and they're arguing the division between science and religion, being both, Wayne and Balderson are arguing for an integration of so called occult ideas in into the mind. But then I think that's a good place to sort of argue, this idea of mind control. And there's a lot of people who think that capital r religion and, capital c Christianity, these organizations, due to the money and the government interference and the secret societies and the Illuminati and all the things that they don't understand it all comes down to some kind of version of mind control.
So with what you said about Christianity being a thing about salvation recognizing the suffering and a way to alleviate suffering by reducing sin in life and having a better life that certainly is very beneficial to a large population of people but we still have to deal with the idea of, institutions using religion and mind control to control the population but then where we could really get into contentious issues here and a lot of people go back through history and say, as much as Christianity has built Europe and it's built a lot of the, the sciences and the academic, institutions, the churches and the universities, it's also done just as much, war and destruction and the crusades, and people have fought, deus volt and, this type of thing. It's like Roman Empire, that sort of idea. So now the question I'm getting to is, are gods for a specific people on a specific land? And this just gets to tribal territorialism.
And somehow, out of all of this, you know, Christianity and evangelicalism and spreading the seeds and missionaries and all of this combined meant that you had you had a military, you had a religion, you had a group of people, and they go to fight, this type of thing. Now if, you know, Balderson's people, the Germans, and those, Norse people versus, Wayne, I don't know what your ancestry is, and I don't know if you have a common ancestry that goes back to a monkey or an amoeba somewhere, but you can argue that. So that's sort of the big pointed, you know, die by the sword type of a conversation here.
[01:11:35] Unknown:
Okay. Well, once again, this falls back. If you're looking at mainstream Christian theology, this falls back on their concept of this hierarchy of powers that does exist in the Bible and it is acknowledged by Christians that it's there, most of the theologians and stuff like that. They acknowledge this hierarchy of powers and actually a divine council even as being something present here. And these different spiritual entities have different functions in this reality and different levels of power. This falls under the category of like angelology and stuff like that. So we have this different hierarchy of powers and some would argue that within some of these hierarchy of powers, they have different, I guess, angelic or fallen angelic beings in some regards that identify as a genius spirit, as they call them in the occult, of a different people group or a different region. So this is called like the genius of such and such a land and that this spiritual entity or intelligence kinda got deified by mankind and became the god of that. And this has created tribalism and division among mankind. So from the Christian point of view, this would be a type of a false god, a small g god, and and then a fallen angelic being or some such thing or a a spirit that had some power that became kind of a god of a certain people group. So you have these divisions going on and it's more of a demonic type spirit in the view of Christianity.
Now if you look at it through the perspective of some of the secret schools and stuff like that, this is how they describe it. They describe it as a genius spirit and it's a spirit that attaches itself to a certain people group or a certain land or even certain family bloodlines. And I find this to be hugely fascinating as well. So you have these different spirits that manifest and sometimes a lot of this causes conflict. Conflict because they're looking out for this one people group and so you have all of this contention and all of this falls back to original sin, of course, when you look at all the divisions and stuff that have gone on here. But certainly we can understand from that perspective, from the Christian mainline theological viewpoint, these would be demonic type entities or fallen angelic beings or something like that that have been all of the other gods separate from the one that's deified in the Christian bible.
So they they view that as being the creator that they and you could go back and argue the semantics of a lot of that as well. But, certainly, we have this division in these different cultures as far as that stuff goes, but, a lot of that from the Christian point of view is just demonstrating some of these other lesser beings in the hierarchy have kinda taken on this role as a god in a certain area or something like that. And then we have I don't know if I strayed far from the question or if I stuck sitting there. I'm trying to stay a little more focused. My mind works all over the place. So Right. So now there's,
[01:14:53] Unknown:
guess, maybe in America today, there's a concern of a a growing fascism or a theocracy. People throw words around not really knowing the original intended meaning versus the meaning that it's maybe shifted towards. So, like, theocratic, government, is is the American government a Christian government combined with a military combined with church arms? And and then we lead to things that we can't talk about. You take a triangle. You you mix it up. You put another triangle together. Middle Eastern conflicts, this type of thing, leading towards biblical prophecy, towards an end times in Armageddon, a World War 3. This type of thing. Is this a benefit of Christianity?
[01:15:37] Unknown:
I don't know if it's necessarily a benefit, but it's giving you an accurate description of times that are we're living in, isn't it? I mean, you you could see a lot of the prophetic things are are true on one level or another, but I don't know if I would call it beneficial. I mean, we're living in interesting times, and we're living in, like, some some really
[01:15:57] Unknown:
tough times right now. It's the it's the acceleration
[01:16:00] Unknown:
of things. It is. It's the acceleration toward the eschaton. So, this is something Right. That is another matter altogether, and and you could look at all different systems. I think universally, not just in Christianity, universally across the board, all the different religious and philosophical systems agree that everything's coming to a head very soon, and something big is going to happen that's transforming mankind. So I think that's something we can all agree upon as far as that goes. Now in Christianity, this is described as the apocalypse, the the book of Revelation. All of these things and all of that's highly symbolic, and there are people in Christianity that look at some of what's been written there, and they take it literally. The words on the page, they they have a literalist interpretation of that. But what they fail to realize is that John the Revelator, when he's being shown this stuff in the book of Revelation, that's in the spiritual world.
So that's not something that's going to physically necessarily look how we think it's going to look, and this is something I've discussed with a lot of my fellow Christians in recent months. I don't think it's gonna all look how you think it's gonna look. Like, I don't think there's going to be this guy marching out onto the scene. That's the antichrist. I think it's a system, and I think it's something a little more subtle, and I think it's something that honestly in my viewpoint relates to artificial intelligence and the transhumanist notion of things. But that's that's my opinion, and I I totally reserve the right to be wrong on all of that. It's possible that the first person that the antichrist is the first person that comes out with a
[01:17:39] Unknown:
transhuman full transhumanist body and thus making them somewhat immortal that they would have died as a human and been resurrected. Because isn't that the motif of the Yeah. Of the antichrist? He goes through basically the Christ ritual
[01:17:56] Unknown:
or or That's what my viewpoint is, Ben, exactly. I think it's going to be the first fruits of the transhumanist notion here, the transhumanist movement. Because Christ is the first fruits of the transmutation of man into this resurrected body, into the the perfected body, the perfected form. So that's what this is. It'll be a knock off of it. And that's something people sometimes misconstrue. The the term antichrist doesn't necessarily mean against Christ. It's an alternative Christ. So it's going to be an imitation of what's been done in the name of Christ here. So in my view, I think people that are looking for the antichrist and they're trying to name specific human beings here and there, I think they're off the mark. I don't think that's exactly what it's gonna look like in the physical. I don't think you're gonna have a guy that just shows up on the scene as a slick business guy or whatever and is able to unify people and make peace agreements and all of this. I think it's gonna be a system, this system that's described in the Bible that's interrelated with all of that, and it's probably gonna be an artificially intelligent one that solves the problems to a certain degree or another.
Think about that. I mean, it's food for thought out there. So I don't think it's gonna work really well. Because that would have a perfect order to it because in in all reality, it would be one mind
[01:19:21] Unknown:
where, and I've said this for years that the the Jesus character that you guys talk about was was extreme chaos. And so the the, this would be the opposite of that. It would be the ordering of that. It would be anti of that. And and so if the, Jesus spirit or mind was freeing humanity to do things, then this would be the anchoring of such into a one uniform thing.
[01:19:56] Unknown:
It's the old Saturnian principle. It's the return of the Saturnian principle. If you look at it from the viewpoint of the, well, the Rosicrucians, the freemasons, a lot of the other secret society groups, and the occult fraternities, It's the return to the golden age in the age of perfect order and peace and harmony. That's how they view it, but see, Saturn can be a cruel taskmaster as well. And that's wherein there's problem because this takes out the equation out of the equation, the free will principle. And this was probably the most important gift that god gave us as mankind is the free will principle. So this is kinda cracking down on that whereas Christ is all about the free will principle and the individuation of man in his ascension.
What's coming that's antichrist is all about the collectivism, the the hive mind mentality, the order out of chaos. You see, this is one thing one thing that's a mantra of the secret schools, order out of chaos. And it it's all about this return to this golden age in the view of those occultists that are looking for this kind of a thing. But I I suspect that it's all going to look a lot different than how most people would think. That That we're not really gonna understand what we're looking at as it's happening, and that's my viewpoint. That's where I come from. Now there may be a lot of Christians out there that disagree with that and think, yeah, we're looking for the this peace to come in Israel, peace in the Middle East, and all of these different signs, and they're talking about the the sacrifice of the red heifer and stuff like that's been in the news cycle in in mainline Christianity quite a bit lately and about the reopening of the temple and the rebuilding of the temple and all of these things, but I don't think that's necessarily what we're going to see as the advent of antichrist. I think all of that is just symbolic in nature, and it's not going to be literally, physically what we see. And like I said, I do reserve the right to be totally wrong on all of that. I'll be very I'll be very surprised if we do see all of that come to pass just how it's written literally in the the scripture.
[01:22:12] Unknown:
But Well, there's, I mean, there's a bit of a a you I don't know. Kind of a break. Right? Because you're you're coming from, you know, like an American Christian perspective on it, and the people who are cutting cows are trying to bring about the. And so their their savior is the biblical antichrist. And, I don't know I don't know, like, who gets to yeah. I don't know if there's, like, a craps game or how it works out to figure out which branch of the rabbis get to pick the, you know, Moishak because they all seem to have, like, a different person selected. There's even people that have said it's Donald Trump and, like, put the silver crown on his head and went to work on the Sabbath for it too.
I don't know how that I don't know how that works. I really don't.
[01:23:15] Unknown:
I don't either. And, see, that's the complicated part. Nobody really knows how that works. Who decides? Who decides who's in charge? Well, that that's another concept altogether that's lost in this whole thing. Like, it it's really a convoluted mess when it comes down to it. All these different religious beliefs and systems and sometimes they they they mesh in certain ways and agree in certain ways and other times, they're totally at odds with one another. Now, what does this all look like when you look at the rabbinic side of things? Well, that's something entirely different because they have different expectations out of all of this than what Christianity has. So once again, you get back to this different bias or lens of observation for viewing all of these events that are happening right now.
So does it create this dichotomy? It certainly does, but there are a lot in of the Jewish faith now that are are coming to accept Christ as their messiah. These are called messianic Jews, and it's a big movement that's been happening a lot over the course of the past several decades. So a lot of them are coming to a realization and a recognition recognition of Christ as the messiah. So this totally changes things from the Jewish perspective in that way, but a lot of the the the rabbis and stuff, who are the ones that make that decision? Who are the ones that are going to perform all of this? And once again, this falls back on some very old principles and family bloodlines once again, and I think this is an important component to all of it because you see it's the the Aaronic priesthood that's supposed to be the ones performing the sacrifices and stuff like that. And do they have that lineage?
Do some of these rabbis have that lineage? I don't know. I don't have the answers to all of that. But, certainly, if you were to stick with the original old testament script of all of it, there was only a certain tribe within the priestly order that was supposed to do these things, to perform these rituals and stuff like that. So is that holding true? And and this once again falls back on something that I have a hard time trying to explain to other Christians too. It's this whole notion of this we're on YouTube. I don't know how much I should say, but there's there's this political state. Okay? We have this political state that does not necessarily reflect the old religious tradition in the bible of what this people group is.
So once again, this falls back when you look at Judaism or you look at the Jewish people. Is it a race? Is it a religion? Or is it a political state? And this is the question people can't answer. And yet a lot of mainline Christianity just wholeheartedly supports due to several scriptures that say, god will curse those who oppose the his people and though he'll bless those that hold up his people. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but this is essentially what's said in several different script scripture verses and stuff. And this is why mainline Christianity just whatever Israel does is good, and we should support them in all of that because they're well, they're they they you know what they say about that. I don't know how much I wanna talk about on YouTube. I don't wanna get you as booted off of there, but certainly I'm kind of amazed we haven't been spanked so far.
[01:26:34] Unknown:
Yeah. Well, we can get spanked in different ways. You know what? True. They can retroactively bend you over too.
[01:26:40] Unknown:
Oh, yeah. They've done that to me before. So, like, you gotta be careful what you say, but let's put it this way. There's there's a certain group that claimed to be chosen people of of a certain certain some other entity out there. So familiar with that idea. And and I think that's a completely different thing altogether than a political nation that's been put forward here. But there are some prophecies in the bible that have been fulfilled through the reinstatement of Israel as an actual nation and stuff like that. But,
[01:27:12] Unknown:
I mean, as far as They themselves are under some levels of psychological warfare
[01:27:17] Unknown:
as well. Certainly, we all are. We all are. And and that's that's a lot of what makes this such a difficult topic, especially when we're talking about it on a platform here where we have to be careful what exactly we're saying. We can't fully express our ideas or thoughts in the proper way, and that's all part of the psychological warfare too. And that's all been done on purpose in my view. It is a lot of the tactics that have been used by those people that do control this world, those darker cultists at the top of the power structure that truly run things in this world. Now you could argue the semantics of who you think they are all day long. That's not the important point. What the important point is is it's a small group at the top that control things. They understand the cult principles that the vast majority of humanity doesn't, and they leverage them against us all the time. And they use religion to play us off one against another.
Among other things, politics, everything, they they've got us divided on so many different levels on so many different things that it's it's just extraordinarily bad at this point. So that being the the case, I mean, even things like a debate, people, they they wanna see contention in an argument in a debate, but I think it's more important to find common ground with people at the end of the day. And we can disagree on things and still be civil with each other and agree on other things. So like I said, I I identify as Christian. I'm a Christian, and I see things through the lens of the Christian viewpoint. But I also understand things your average Christian doesn't from studying some of these other perspectives and angles of things.
And everything that I've studied from these other angles and viewpoints reifies my faith in Christianity all the more. And that's what most Christians can't come to terms with. They think that looking at this other stuff, somehow you're disavowing Christ. You're disavowing Christianity and walking away from it because you're you have the audacity to actually look at this stuff that we were told we shouldn't be involved with. Well, it's information. So in my viewpoint, as long as you're not practicing, like, the ritualism or all of the stuff that goes along with that, the principles that are associated with that, but you understand its machinations and how it works, you're not doing anything wrong, especially when it pertains to natural processes in this world.
Things happen how they happen in the natural world, and that's just a fact. And that's something you could bank on. Like I had said earlier, you could bank on the fact the sun's gonna come up tomorrow. Has there ever been a day that any of you fellows have been alive
[01:29:54] Unknown:
where the sun didn't come up in the morning and set at night? I I would bet my bottom dollar that tomorrow there will be some.
[01:30:01] Unknown:
Right. So, like, this is something that is lost on most most people in general and and Christians in particular. We we have certain things that we could see that are observable truths in nature, in the creation that we could bank on, and we could know that is a foundational truth that God, the creator, has put that here as a reminder to us. There are certain natural laws that operate in this world. There are actual truths that hold true no matter what your perspective is, and you need to understand those and work within the bounds of those. Because when you work against the bounds of nature in a destructive type process, that ultimately leads to your destruction.
And it's a simple concept really when you you look at it from that perspective. But largely, where we've gone as a culture, as a civilization, is we've tended more towards these destructive ideologies. Even our technologies we use. Look at the combustion engine. It's a destructive technology. When in all actuality, if we were to pursue out the old occult sciences the way we do our modern science, we would find there's better ways to do things that work with the bounds of nature. And there are discoveries that have been made and inventions that have been built that really reify that idea that have been hidden away by the power structure because it doesn't help them to maintain their control in this place.
So, therefore, we have just false synthetic ideas based upon that that they bring forward. Things that aren't necessarily sustainable or operational for any length of time, like the the green movement, if you wanna look at the example of technology. Like, all of the things that they're pushing and promoting, all this does is make the big oil companies all the richer because they're the ones investing in this. So they're playing both sides here, and they know the things that they're pushing and putting out there. They're they're not working in the way that they claim that they're going to work. But there are other better ways. I mean, all you have to do is look back at, like, the work of somebody like a Victor Schauberger who developed his repulsing engine. This is something that works within and with the bounds of nature that could produce energy and produce workable technologies, but that's all been suppressed. And you have to look.
A lot of this stuff's been suppressed for these types of purposes so that this this group that has instantiated themselves in positions of power could stay in control in this place. So I I think I diverged a little from the topic. But Oh, that
[01:32:46] Unknown:
is the the topic at large. It's the question of living in a world where there's misunderstandings about family bloodlines and conspiracy theories and people in dark robes doing dark rituals and magic. And then Christians are told, you know, don't participate in divination or tarot or rolling dice or playing guitar or, you know, having long hair or these sort of things. But over time yeah. So we we have seen the Christian church in America have a certain 19 fifties, and go back to 50 years, 1900, and then to 1950, you get electric guitar. And now every church has electric guitars and drum sets, and everything is like a YouTube rock concert, Coldplay worship service where you're standing there and just watching a concert. And people like to go to a mega churches because it dimmed the lights and then there's no personal accountability.
So then people say, well, I'm a follower of Christ and I have a fellowship and a bible study. Maybe that's a splinter cell. Maybe that's a FBI watch list or something. You know, it's like Christian nationalism is is a new scare word in, you know, when Trump is gonna be the big daddy president, king of all, then final president, this type of thing. But with the idea that there's, that we're trying to imminetize immediately faster, faster, faster, going to a a zero point in history where everything just implodes on itself. Is that part of the, the church tradition Balderson comes from the idea that there's a a age and then we go and it gets bad and then the calendar flips over and we go to another age and it's a little bit better. So we have to some people are gonna have to die. Some systems are gonna have to die. Some some businesses are just gonna have to, you know, be gone.
Google was not evil, but now they're a little bit evil, and now they're a little bit more evil. Are they just trending towards ultimate evil? This type of thing. When does it get better? You know, is there gonna be a rapture of the church? Are we in the did the tribulation begin in 2020? So now we're about 4 years into it and we got 3 years left.
[01:34:54] Unknown:
When do you get that respect? Yeah.
[01:34:56] Unknown:
I can actually see why the church had a thing against dancing. When I look at it historically, all the girls I know that got the most into music and it really touched them, they danced the most, and they also had no idea what the words were. So, like, half the songs that they were doing that to, like, those songs had some really fucked up things in them. And those girls are just in it. And it's really an interesting phenomena where music and then when you let the music really get to you, that
[01:35:35] Unknown:
Well, something really got to do this, man.
[01:35:38] Unknown:
Yeah. You really let the music get into you, then there can be more easily this the more subtle programmings that can occur that, you're not aware of and that really seat themselves because you're now really aligned with that, vibrating with that, and not even taking in the information that it's providing. Not consciously.
[01:36:07] Unknown:
But, Ben, see, there's the thing. You're you're speaking to something that's that's more of a subtlety that most Christians don't resonate with or won't acknowledge as being a truth. That that vibration and that frequency has an effect and that this archetype can affect your unconscious mind in a a certain
[01:36:25] Unknown:
way. They just know it's the devil's music. All of a sudden, Elvis Presley is out there shaking his thing around. That was the devil working through him.
[01:36:32] Unknown:
Right. And and, like, see how they they go back to the lowest common denominator with things, and they try to ultra simplify things. And that leads people to think, well, what is okay to do then? Is it okay to have any fun whatsoever? Like, a lot of this stuff that's come about in Christianity, especially, is all based on man made dogmas, and that's the problem. There's nothing that goes against that stuff necessarily mentioned in the Bible or in the scripture unless you take some stuff out of context and twist it and contort it that way. But this is what has been done through the course of time. And we have more man made dogmas attached to different Christian theology now than than what are core truths.
And this is why different denominations, they they put out their their mission statement or who they are, and they tell you what are their core beliefs that they believe in this Christian denomination as compared to some other ones. So you have all of that that happens, and a lot of it's just based on this man made dogma. And that's a problem that's come about too. And there's so many different denominations of Christianity now that are so different from one another that what's what's the commonality? What's the common ground? And that gets to be where there's so much argument and there's so much misconstruing. What does the scripture mean? There's so much misinterpretation of things, and there's so many different viewpoints that come into being with that. So that's why I think Christianity is a more divided religion than most of the other ones at this point. Although there's a lot of divisions in is Islam as well.
There's different viewpoints in that system that I'm aware of. Judaism, I think there's different factions of that group those groups too. So you have these different belief systems all claiming to be the same religious denomination, really, when it comes down to it's the same religion, just a different denomination of that. So some sometimes even these slight differences in the denominations can lead to more confusion. Who's right? Who's wrong? How do we know? Speaking to the whole notion of are we living in the tribulation? I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. I have heard people speculate that the tribulation began in 2020 and that we are at that halfway point. I heard Ben speaking about that, but I've heard other people talk about that. And some of them, they make some good arguments as to why that could be the case.
But the truth is nobody really knows. Nobody really knows. And will we know until hindsight becomes 2020 to, you know, point a phrase there and to From from our perspective,
[01:39:10] Unknown:
according to your, prophetic triggers, it seems to me the 7 years of world peace would be pretty standout. Like, you know, like, when we achieve a 7th year of world peace, when we achieve a 1 year of world peace, you know, I'm gonna be going.
[01:39:29] Unknown:
Yeah. Oh, see that that's the other thing, though. That's the other thing, though, Ben. Most biblical scholars and most theologians, they're don't say it's gonna be a 7 year period of peace. That's not what it is. That this peace treaty comes in the middle of the the tribulation. This is how most of the the Christian theologians accept it. So it's only gonna be be like a 3 and a half year period of peace because it's probably gonna be a year period.
[01:39:58] Unknown:
Peace. I'm gonna be going, what's going on around here? Yeah. Something's not right. So we are in agreement with that. The last 4 years have been a bit of a tribulation to to say that it's great or the greatest tribulation is yet to be seen. I mean, we still got a few more years to get through, certainly. What's the big end goal for a a man who's a Christian in his life living through these times? Like, what is what do you hope to see, afterlife stuff?
[01:40:26] Unknown:
Well, basically, you you wanna get into heaven. You wanna have that access to an eternal paradise where there's there's no more pain, no more suffering, no more crying, no more tears, and it's just perpetual joy, and it's essentially edenic if you wanna go back to the the comparison to the Garden of Eden. So you don't have the struggles. You have the the happiness and you have the reunification with all of your loved ones and stuff like that. That's that's the end goal is to get in there. That's what most Christians strive for. They just wanna get there. Doesn't matter where their seat is at the table. They just wanna get to the table there. So that's the the goal.
And what that really looks like on the other side, I don't know. I don't know. I have a lot of things that I don't understand. We all have a lot of things that we don't understand, and the truth of the matter is nobody really knows what it's like on the other side. That's the whole thing here. And a lot of people would argue there is no other side, this is all there is. I don't think that's the case though. I've seen too much evidence of spiritual realities to accept that this is all there is and even our mainstream science doesn't accept that this is all there is because they say energy lives on. And they've actually done some scientific research experiments to show that after your spirit leaves your body, it lives on, your consciousness lives on somehow as information out there.
And there's there's just so much involved with this. There's a spiritual side to this reality that we don't really see with our 5 senses or experience with our 5 senses, and a lot of it is based in faith. And that's an important thing, an important component to it. Now faith is a key fundamental for anybody. And if you have a basic understanding of your core traditions and your core religious values and you have that faith in what you're pursuing, then you begin to work towards that end goal, whatever that may be. And for most people, I think it would be we just don't want to cease to exist, right, when everything's all said and done.
I think that's a a core archetype and a fear that's inherent in humanity. What happens when do we take our last breath in this place? Where do we go from there? Are we really that which dies? Now I heard Ken Wheeler say something to the effect. Why do you think you are that which dies? And that's the big question we have to ask ourselves. Are we a body that has a spirit, or are we a spirit that has a body? When you look at things from that perspective, you have to understand that we're a spirit having a human experience here, a physical experience and not the other way around. And when you come to terms with that, then you realize there is something on the other side. And we don't really honestly all know what that is or what that looks like, but I would like to believe that there's a way we can get to that other side and have this peaceful type of existence, the the reconciliation of all of the brokenness and all of the the conflict that we have here on earth in this physical reality in which we live, this harsh school that we live in. And once again, a lot of this falls back on some of the old philosophic ideas and some of the old alchemical principles.
We're in this this harsh classroom of sorts here to learn different lessons and to grow spiritually, and it's in in a necessity that we're here. It's necessity and hardship, by just by the nature of this physical reality in which we manifest, and it's something we need to go through if we're going to have that reconciliation, that communion with God the creator at the end of it all. If we're going to have that peace and that transmutation at the end of that transformation into a pure spirit back to this this whole notion of wholeness once again because most people will acknowledge that we have some type of spiritual need, but we don't really have a good reckoning as to what it really is. We have this unction in ourselves to seek after that, but we have a hard time defining what exactly that is and where it is we're going and what we hope to achieve by that.
[01:45:04] Unknown:
So it's a lot of people will say that Christians believe that if you're not a Christian, everyone else goes to hell. Any anybody who who has heard Christ's word, who's heard the gospel message and rejects it and then dies, they go to hell. Is there any branch of Christianity or any Christian ideas that recognize other religious afterlives and say, well, Christians have our idea, but we can acknowledge that other, faith systems have afterlives that we can acknowledge and not have to deny their existence.
[01:45:39] Unknown:
Once again, that falls back on the whole notion here of what commonalities do we have with other religious structures and stuff like that. We all have some of these inherent beliefs. Now Christians, the mainline theology is Christ is the only way to get to heaven, and many will teach that, yes, if you reject Christ, you will go to hell. But who am I as a finite human being to define God's mercy? See, that's the big thing that I always fall back to. Our God is a merciful God. He showed us that he's a merciful God, and his desire is that none should perish, but all should come to redemption.
So how far will he go with that? And that's the whole question. Will we all be judged in this final judgment? And there are some certain theological teachers in Christianity itself that teach that after all of the final judgments, that man will be reconciled with God, and it's only the fallen angelic beings that will be cast into hell because that's who hell is built for. God did not create hell for man. So it's it's all a matter of what Christian perspective you come to with this. And this is the thing. Christianity is a very fragmented religion. There's so many different beliefs through so many different denominations and so many different teachings that theologians and scholars agree on and disagree on and all of this, then it makes it hard to answer these questions in an authoritative fashion. Now I've read and experienced and and studied a lot of this stuff. So I know some of the nuances from the different perspectives that they come at, and that that is the perspective that I think I've accepted in my spirit is who am I to try to rationalize or try to limit god's mercy for other people?
Like, obviously, he's shown mercy. So he can, at his discretion, show mercy to everybody if he wants to. He could give everyone a second chance. He is a god of second chances in my view. So in in that perspective in mind, then why wouldn't he perhaps give people a chance after they leave this earth again if they've made mistakes? So there's a lot of different contention that different Christians might have with that viewpoint, but certainly, I I'm not one to put limitations on god. And and that in my view is putting a limitation on god.
[01:48:21] Unknown:
Balderson, our rebuttal.
[01:48:26] Unknown:
Out of, a lot of that that was said, it wasn't the most recent thing. One of the, things I'd like to pick out a little bit is that, from the way I understand it, and if if I'm wrong, correct me, the the old testament, the majority of it was narrated by an angel. Am I is that right or wrong?
[01:48:56] Unknown:
Well, from what my understanding is, the vast majority of the old testament was attributed to being written by Moses.
[01:49:03] Unknown:
But it was narrated by an angel to Moses. Correct?
[01:49:08] Unknown:
I I don't know if that's necessarily the case. I don't know what if that's the the claim or not along with that. I know they say, and it is inspired. Inspired.
[01:49:19] Unknown:
Is the claim not supposed to be that it's Lemetitron who is the voice of God that if Moses was to actually receive the words directly that his human mind could not comprehend just the presence of God in such a way. And so this intermediary of Metatron by Metatron's own words had to happen.
[01:49:43] Unknown:
Well, see, that's that's something that, most Christians would take a little bit of conflict with, with you here because there's no mention of Metatron in the bible. Now this is a tradition that goes back to Kabbalism and to some of the other various systems. So Metatron in and of itself, this is not mentioned in mainline the theology or anything like that. It's just said that it's it was inspired, the inspired word of god that came to Moses, and that's who they largely they don't know exactly who wrote the old testament, but largely the, rabbis and stuff like that, they attribute the old testament primarily to Moses.
But they don't really make mention of how that information is transmitted. They just say it's inspired by god in the mainline biblical context. Now from extra biblical sources like what you're talking about here, you can argue maybe Metatron had something to do with this. And who is Metatron when it comes down to it? This is the transfigured Enoch, and this is a fascinating subject. And I'm actually I've just begun writing a book about this because there's 2 Enochs in the bible, and there's a juxtaposition between the 2 of them. And it's a fascinating topic for another day. But just to get back to the the main idea here, it's said to be inspired by God. The word that was given, that was written was inspired by God. It doesn't say necessarily how by the angel of God, but it doesn't necessarily name it Metatron in that. Now you might get some of that context from extra biblical sources that maybe it was Metatron, the transfigured Enoch who had something to do with the transmission of the information.
But that's a fascinating look from another perspective at another time, but most mainline Christian theologians won't accept that as being part of the narrative. You see, this falls back to what's accepted in the biblical canon and what's not, and some of that falls back to the council at Nicaea and some of these other early church councils that decide what got in there and what didn't. So most Christian theology will say that's not true. Or harmful. What's that? Do you think those were beneficial
[01:51:50] Unknown:
or harmful?
[01:51:52] Unknown:
Honestly, I think I think it's kind of a mix of both because some of the things it's hard to really interpret how they align with the main teaching of the bible, but some of it, I think, is harmful by by leaving it out because we miss out on so much context. So I I I do like the apocryphal works and some of the different things that go along with that. These extra biblical texts that offer more context into the events that were going on. So you could find a lot of meaning in it valuable information in that. So I don't disavow those things, but I'm just saying from the mainline prescription or Christian theologian perspective, they they they'll shut you right down immediately if you mention Metatron as as part of the transcription of of the the scripture to Moses in that case.
[01:52:45] Unknown:
I I can see where having it and not having it is both I I I I agree where it has its advantages and its disadvantages. As a heathen, very similar to pre your pry pre council of Nicaea, we have a collection of stories. And at some point in time, you had a council that went through and tried to streamline those stories and took the things that were a little more odd out of there, took and made compares comparisons between similar similar stories and, you know, tried to get to the heart of things, I would presume, and tried to make a somewhat streamlined, system, where in that, you do lose some things that maybe those were the wrong things to take out. But then on the same token, like as a heathen, one of the things that typically gets brought up is, some of the, more rugged, like, philandering and things like that behaviors that they attribute to Odin. But all of those things come from one poem which was the, lay of Harbard and that was a fleeting.
And a fleeting is literally like a shit talk contest, like a rap battle. So why would you keep that in the main canon? So that somebody went through and canonized seems to have some advantages, but again, I I could definitely see where it loses advantages also because now you now that you've made a canon, some of the things that you may have comparatively looked at, you're not gonna look at because there is a canon.
[01:54:31] Unknown:
Right. And that's that's the perspective that I come at with this too. I think there's been a lot of the information that's valuable that's been lost, but at the same token, there's also a lot of stuff that's, well, kind of like a a nonsensical side notion like what you were saying, like an ancient rap battle or something like that. It doesn't really make much of a difference and therefore it could be put to the wayside. So the the question is, was there some other ulterior motive going on with the removal of some of the content and the the putting in of some of the content? And I would say there's always motivation and motive behind these things and they're not always forthright with what the motivation is. I find it extremely compelling that the mainstream Christian Bible now consists of 66 books and you have to wonder why do they always come back to the same numbers and stuff like that. So there is intention embedded in that and I think some valuable information has been left out on purpose.
And I do think that mainstream religion has been weaponized against the masses in a lot of different ways and has been infiltrated by some of those from within the secret schools and from this group of what I would call the darker cultists who run things. They have infiltrated into the mainstream church and have disseminated ideas that go counter to what Christ's teachings were. So we have a lot of that going on, and this is where we fall back on the whole notion of man made dogma once again as being a problem with a lot of these different things. So not disagreeing there.
[01:56:07] Unknown:
Go ahead and say anything you wanna say, Steve, before you gotta roll out, brother.
[01:56:11] Unknown:
Yeah. No. I just I I gotta I gotta bounce out. But, Wayne, always good to see you again. And, yeah, just let me know when you guys are up so I can kill the stream, whatever point that is, but, have as much fun as humanly possible. And whenever you guys are, you know, done holding each other's dicks, maybe you can find something to argue about.
[01:56:35] Unknown:
You know, we've been trying, but, you know, Wayne's a a very intelligent dude and more open thought. So we're gonna but it it's been very excellent because, on the same token, it's good to have a grip of where they're gonna come at. The ones that are more closed minded, don't really think about things. There are still things I disagree with Wayne about that but it would take a lot of, individual, just him and I, and it would take more than 2 hours, I think, because
[01:57:06] Unknown:
Oh, yeah.
[01:57:08] Unknown:
Some of the things where where I did push back originally with the whole even understanding with the matter versus spirit, well, then if if if your spirit and you die and you're not that thing that dies, that thing that died was matter. And so then are you just spirit? And then is matter this mundane thing that's separate from you, and is it separate from God? And and so this is an entire problem that that now it bring it just re recurs back onto itself. And for me, this is because it's not a holistic system where the holistic system and they have a trinity, but they're not understanding that there's that that trinity as above so below has different levels to it. And so the level that we're experiencing it doesn't mean that's the entire creation level of it, and both things are happening.
[01:58:05] Unknown:
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. No. The, let's see. The dumb bunny way of putting that is, where it's spiritual beings having a human experience.
[01:58:21] Unknown:
There you go. And, yeah, I mean, that that falls back on Yeah. No. I got to go post. Alright.
[01:58:28] Unknown:
Have a good one, Steve. I gotta bug out pretty soon too. But, Whenever you're ready, Wayne. We aren't trying to hold you up. Just enjoying the conversation, brother. We don't do it often enough. Honestly, at some point, I think we'd like to bring you back on, but more on, a panels type thing where we're bringing in somebody else also that's, maybe, because there's quite a growing see I understand where like the ortho bros and things like that come from. I do. I understand that that when people were given too much freedom that they went the full libtard crazed we're going to cut off our our sexual organs and become other sexual beings and and do weird things with kids and just outrageous things nobody would ever want. I understand that given that freedom that some people did that. I get it.
So the I also understand that the knee jerk reaction to that kind of thing to seeing that kind of outrageousness is to, you know, similar to what Iran is doing every time the west steps up, it's, what they call freedom and and becomes more outrageous, the Iran seems to become more hyper conservative. And I understand that there's a, inside this movement in the United in the west, that there's now a counter movement that's hyper conservative. And the thing is is and especially, like, guys like you, I appreciate the Christians, you know, like, I don't have that whole pagan versus Christian thing going on at this point, and and it's not that I didn't have that at one point. But it's that especially the orthodox produces a lifestyle of people that I appreciate that matches the lifestyle that I do and the same with yourself. I feel like a lot of your views are more orthodox.
But, the and then obviously a lot of your views are exact opposite because you're very intelligent and open minded. So I think the orthodox strict is more for people that aren't very intelligent a lot of times because it seems like a lot of people need that structuring in order to not go off and rub their genitals and children's faces and cut them off and get other genitals and weird things like that, apparently. You know, that's that's just the world. But, it's just interesting. It's interesting, and I understand, and I appreciate the the quality of people that it produces as opposed to obviously solipsism or, you know, materialism.
I have no appreciation for the type of people that produces whatsoever. And so it's a interesting thing to deal with, you know. And and so I think that, some of these people that don't have is opening of a mind, though, that are, debaters such as, like, take Andrew Wilson or Jay Dyer or somebody along that lines. These are intelligent men that at least know how to express themselves. And yet at the same time, you see them fall into the exact same traps. And part of that I think is is the same reason that a cultist fell into the trap because too many of them quit doing the actual work, quit living the life. Because fact fact is is that most people don't live life. They live this caricature of life where most things that most of the people that we're talking about, the spiritual people that the the our ancestors, they fully lived their life. They didn't have somebody else doing all their stuff for them. They built their own fucking house. They planted their own fucking food.
Every bit of their life was very intimate for them. At this point, we got we can barely we got people that barely can wipe their own ass. So I no matter how high their philosophy is, when they're that disconnected from actual life, you're gonna go sideways.
[02:02:42] Unknown:
I agree. And that's one of my big pet peeves is you find this in the halls of academia, the high halls of academia. Like if you look at your average tenured college professor and stuff like that, honestly, a lot of them have never worked an honest day in their life. They they have no idea what it's like, what the struggle's like for the average person out there just trying to earn a living and and do things. So, like, I don't know. That's just one of my big pet peeves.
[02:03:12] Unknown:
Yeah. I think I'd like to bring you in as we debate some of those people, as somebody that's got the more open mind, even understanding that, you don't exactly agree with everything that we say and vice versa, which is great, especially in a debate panel. But, we agree on too much to have a very active debate debate against each other. But I think in some of these other, arenas and, also, we would like to bring in some occultists, and whatnot to have some debates. And obviously, those occultists are primarily gonna be, new age, Theosophical Society, types that both of us are absolutely against.
So, you know, I think that, so that's part of why we're just jabbing. All of that to say that's part of why we're still jabbing because I I do it despite being very different, religions and whatnot. Wayne and I get along very well and have very similar mindsets and enjoy each other and the same with Marcus. So I would like to we would like to at least, at some point, invite you back on a panel where we're you're on more of on our team at least. Or,
[02:04:20] Unknown:
Yeah, man. I'd love that because here here's the thing. I I think a lot of times if you get, like, these theosophists and some of these occultists and stuff, they don't really know what they believe. Yeah. Sometimes you have to tell them if they haven't done that, like, the thorough reading and stuff like that, and they'll just hand you what they've been taught. And this falls back again. They haven't done the work. A lot of them have just taken at face value what their teacher told them, and that's the end of it. And they accept that as fact in what they're doing, and and this becomes problematic when you begin to really thoroughly research into these organizations and know that they admittedly lie to their own lower level members because they don't want them to know what they know. Like, they'll they'll teach you everything you know, but they won't teach you everything that the the master knows. You know? So Yeah.
[02:05:12] Unknown:
Well, and then also won't tell you that the master hasn't actually achieved usually the gift that the end goal that they're that they're representing. So you're supposedly through your, you know, funding and energy helping push this master to this end goal, at which point then they will bestow that on you. And so they they're they're giving you something. They are promising you something they don't even freaking have. It's
[02:05:42] Unknown:
broke. And it's it's based in in deception, most of it. Yeah. And that's a lot of the problem. And that's how they they keep these members, like, strung along here. They keep telling them, hey. Well, I'll I'll reveal the next secret to you and such and such. And when you come to realize, a lot of them, especially the new AG versions thereof are mostly charlatans, then you begin to understand a few extra things about it, the things they're telling you. They might take some good salient points, a part of the valuable information, and then it's that 10% of poison, like I said, that they always do. That's the point that that really leads people astray. So oftentimes, they don't know what they're getting involved with, and they haven't really done the deep research and see where some of the change points and the teachings have come from. And that's something I do all the time. I'll look back and I'll find, hey, This certain person back in such and such a time era in this occult fraternity changed up what this original idea meant and inverted it from what its original meaning was. And they do that in so many different ways, and you could point this back to a couple different people. Well, more than just a couple. There there's a bunch of this that goes on through the course of time, and you see how it gets contorted. And then that gets taught forward into the modern occult schools today, and they accept that as being the true and accurate assessment of all of it when in fact it's the inversion of what the original attention was. So that's where it becomes convoluted.
[02:07:13] Unknown:
I like convoluted. Just shove everything in a bug out bag. I was gonna ask you, what do you have in your bug out bag? And do you think that there's gonna be boots on the ground, World War 3, Russia, Red Dawn attack, China take over this sort of thing? Is is there, doomerism? Do you have a black pill? Do you have a white pill? What do you think of, like, nihilism? And, you know, does your face give you hope to that none of this matters because you're gonna go to heaven?
[02:07:39] Unknown:
I have an extreme amount of hope. And, honestly, I I've I've come to the realization. I mean, the way I see it from my viewpoint, we've been actively involved in World War 3 since at least 1954 in my view, and it's a different kind of war. And we were even warned about this in the bible. Jesus told us on in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 24, you'll see wars and rumors of wars. Now a lot of Christian theologians and scholars looked at this concept of rumors of wars. Well, what is he talking about here? This is a different type of warfare than what we're accustomed to. This is domestic warfare. This is economic warfare. This is what's been happening in our society for a very, very long time. So in my viewpoint, I think we've been actively involved in World War 3 for a very long time, and it looks different than what people expect.
And I don't think we're necessarily gonna see boots on the ground. It's just they've used so many psy psychological operations and everything against us. We're so beat down that we don't even understand what's been happening to us. They've they've used this against us, and I'll cite I'll send people over to look at a document called silent weapons for quiet wars to have a little bit of a better understanding of this because it absolutely reflects the truths of whether what's going on in society today and how many of these things have been weaponized against us and how we have been just victims of this type of thing. But as far as having a plan or something like that, learn to do some things on your own.
Have some valuable resources on hand. It doesn't hurt to have gold and silver as actual physical currency to have in the event of an emergency. I would recommend make sure you have food. Keep at least 3 weeks worth of food on hand in case of emergencies. Land, owning land, that's an important asset to have too. Being able to grow your own food, being able to build things, have tools, some basic tools so you could repair things, build things, learn some basic skills for survival so that should something happen, you're you're still gonna live, have a source of heat or something that doesn't depend upon electricity to operate, and you'll be good. I I mean, you're talking just basic having basic survival things on hand and having some basic resources available so that they can't starve you out. That's the important thing, and you you should be fine. I mean, as long as you have some type of skills like that and some types of resources available, that's what's really valuable when it when push comes to shove. But I I think they're just gonna keep siphoning off off of us the way that they've been for the longest time. It's just going to escalate to a different level once they get digital ID and everything put in place. And that's that's what their next goal is.
So in order to stab that off, I I I my whole thing is is to stab that off as long as possible. So do things like actually pay cash and shop local and do those kind of things to kinda stab this off and stop giving away your information freely out there. I mean, easier said than done. You know? I mean, we're here on the Internet right now. It's it's been a valuable resource and tool. No doubt about it. But the way it's been weaponized against us, that's the problem. It's the people that control the development of these types of technologies that's the problem. So we have to be aware that it's dual use technology being used against us and they collect all of our information on the back end of all of it. And they could use that information in ways that we scarcely understand, to learn things about us that we don't even know about ourselves, and that's something that can be weaponized against us. So we need to be aware of that, and we need to just do our utmost to do common sense things so that should there be an emergency, we'll be okay. So have a heat source that doesn't depend on electricity, whether it's like a wood burning stove or something like that, have the to own land, maybe have some physical assets like gold and silver that you could use in an emergency in a pinch and be able to fend for yourself, like, grow some crops or something, grow some grow a garden. I have a garden out here that we put in this past summer.
Didn't do well this summer. It's been much too wet, but you have to have something, so that if something does go down and you can't have access to goods or services, you'll be okay for a while. So just simple things like that, and I have an immense amount of hope. I don't think that our generation is is gonna just go quietly into the night. I think maybe the future generations, like our children and grandchildren, it might be a little different story because they they've never existed in a time without the Internet and all of these different things and this interconnectedness, and they won't know how to function. But, like, I don't think our generation's gonna gonna accept much of what they're trying to roll out.
[02:12:54] Unknown:
No. No. We don't. And it it that this whole thing seems to be happening in a quick hurry right now. It really
[02:13:06] Unknown:
does. And that that quick scramble doesn't seem to be effective, and you talked earlier about hierarchies and, you know, world governments and these things. And they seem to be infighting amongst themselves as well as if they think that somehow they need to get on top before a great reset or a cataclysm, a flood, or an asteroid, or meteor shower, or something to that effect. But if they're all going into their own bunkers and they have underground cities and mountains and things like that, it's like I I think that they are just as afraid as anybody else and probably more afraid. And then looking at recent news of people with, wealth on Forbes list and things and addresses being released, this is this part of the script, part of the plan to to get people to go after other people like a class warfare thing?
[02:14:00] Unknown:
Oh, most certainly. It's it's it's a whole psychological operation going on, and and that's something that I noticed with this big news story that's been going on in New York with the the CEO that was murdered in cold blood and stuff like that. There's there's so much to that, and I'm actually gonna do a show Friday night on FreeWorld FM talking about that because there's just There isn't just a there isn't a a a laundry list of oddities in that one at all. Yeah. That's for sure.
[02:14:31] Unknown:
So mainstream people going, this makes no sense. Like yeah. Yeah. It don't. Get used to it. Get fucking used to it. No.
[02:14:44] Unknown:
It's only gonna escalate now, and and that's the problem. I mean, we we see more and more of this type of stuff going on. And the more incredulous that it sounds, the more people are eating it up. And you'll notice that news coverage of this particular thing is over the top for for something like that. More more than when,
[02:15:03] Unknown:
an attempted assassination on a former president, potential president happened. More so than that, that was like a blip in the news cycle. They made freaking like a blip.
[02:15:17] Unknown:
Yeah. But they're drawing attention to this one, and there's a lot of myriad of movements as to why. But
[02:15:23] Unknown:
at any rate, I do have to go, gentlemen. It's been a pleasure here. So for those of us who want more Wayne McCroy, where do we get more Wayne McCroy online?
[02:15:32] Unknown:
You could go to my website, www.alchemicaltechrevolution. Com, and it has links to everything I do on there. And if we want you offline, do you have paper books? I do. I do. They're available through Amazon, or you could find them at pretty much any other They fit in stockings if people wanted to stuff stockings and put them in some trees. It depends how big the stocking is, I guess. But much appreciated, gentlemen.
[02:16:00] Unknown:
It's been Much appreciated. Your time there, Wayne, and, we love you, brother. And wish you luck with everything you got going on with your new books and everything you got coming out.
[02:16:13] Unknown:
Yeah. It it it's it's something. I mean, the way I write books, I I I'm all over the place. Like, I I I sometimes I'm so disorganized. It's it's amazing I get anything done, but, certainly, I I appreciate being on here, and we'll do this again
[02:16:32] Unknown:
for sure. Yeah. So I got then we'll bring you back on. I think we're gonna try and get some occult panels going and bring you back on on that to rep you represent the Christian side of things and, the more, again, what a lot of people don't even understand is that there was a a schism inside the occult world with the the, theol theosophical society and things like that that this was a schism in the occult world. And a lot of people don't understand that your older occultist, not your new age occultist. It's before that that match nature, which matches most of your religions, where the more new age y stuff does not.
[02:17:14] Unknown:
Right. And all of that was actually mostly pushed and promoted by freemasonry in the mid to late 1800 into the early 1900. And a lot of this was put forward that way, and then splinter groups broke up. Like you said, the theosophists, the the different branches that came from the Rosicrucian stream of information
[02:17:34] Unknown:
that came forward. A lot of it was Did you see our, our German episode, brother? No. So we got this, a cult Germany episode of weaving spiders. We got to talk to this guy who is as you know, he is like, he's friends with all the old occultists. Like, he knows he's one of them. You know? And because of his expertise, he got access to the original documents that the Rosicrucians used to start their order. And him and his wife retranslated them, and he says he's going through the letter, which is the red letter of provenance in order to start out as a society.
And he goes, at the end of the letter, it's, signed by a woman and my wife and I are in shock that this is signed by a woman. And they said specifically because in German, verbs, if you use a verb like, if you use a verb, that verb's gonna have a masculine bent to it as a man. If a woman uses a verb, it has a feminine bent to it. So there's depending on who's speaking about what's being done, the verb has a masculine or a feminine. Well, he said through the whole letter, the verbs were masculine, and then he gets to the bottom and it's signed by a woman. Like, and he goes, we're just in shock. So that whole thing was entirely forged.
The Fraulein Spranger who which who was there basically because at the time that the order started up, if you didn't have a German occultist to basically vouch for you, you didn't have anything. And so she was the German occultist vouching, and she doesn't exist, and the letters were written by a man.
[02:19:24] Unknown:
Fascinating stuff. But, yeah, I mean, you could understand where a lot of, like, really sketchy stuff has come from then. Just understanding that and how many more forgeries and stuff have been documented in that way and how much has been misconstrued and mistranslated as well, and that's a lot of the problem with all of this stuff. And you really have to go back, compare and contrast these different things, and that's what I do. I look at the different systems. I look at the different secret society groups, occult orders. I see what what do the theosophists teach about this? What do the Rosicrucians teach? What do the freemasons teach? What does the OTO teach? And if you could find commonalities between that, then you could find a core doctrine and trace it back, actually. And that's what I I spend a lot of time doing is tracing back some of the core doctrines and seeing where some of these changeover places have happened.
And a lot of it in the modern era goes back to a particular time period, and that's the mid to late 1800 is where that all comes from and stems from. So this is when with the advent of the Theosophical Society and these different groups where you have some key people reapplying new meanings to old ideas and inverting them, and this has happened quite a bit. And this gets pushed forward, and this becomes where it's based in the inversion of what the original intention was. Like, if you go back to as old as stuff as you could find as far as the works of alchemy and stuff go, you find it's truer to nature. It's truer it's more geared towards good and good intention.
And when you trace it forward, you see how it becomes twisted and how the alchemical stream of knowledge shifts at a certain point and goes towards the bad. Now a lot of this I think has to do with particular agendas and goals of certain people that wanted to maintain their grip on power at certain times, But it's hard to really trace what was the reasoning behind this, but a lot of it, I think, has to do with certain people wanted to have an advantage over others. So they've taken these ideas and weaponized them in different ways, or they've been so distorted in their own viewpoints that they actually believed the inversion process that they put forward.
And and that's what goes on. Scary. It is scary. They've become so dis dis what what should we say? So distorted in their viewpoint, so overwhelmed with what they think. They're high on their own so hubristic. They've become so hubristic in their own power and their own viewpoint of things that they've attached these different meanings to stuff. And they a lot of this goes back to ritual magic and stuff too, which is a very real thing. But at any rate, yeah, we'll have to discuss this stuff some other time for sure. Appreciate it. Brother. We will get we will get a decent occult debate going, and we will bring you in.
[02:22:35] Unknown:
But we thank you for your time. And with that, we love you guys. Steve's got control of the off button, so Marcus and I will keep entertaining you for a minute, and we'll let Wayne go.
[02:22:44] Unknown:
Bye, guys. Thanks again. Be well. Thanks, Wayne.
[02:22:50] Unknown:
And Marcus and I will just be asked for a minute. Did you have any more wire wraps to show anybody? What's that? Did your wire wraps to show anybody or the art that you I I do have some wire wraps that I can show on. Crafts? Oh, Steve said weird. I'm backstage. So he's probably just gonna shut us off. I'm not gonna get up and do that. So we love you guys. We will figure out what we got going on. I've been in talks with Marty Leeds about getting something going. So we'll try and get some more occult, angled debates going and try and get some more argumentative
[02:23:39] Unknown:
type Christian debates going. Yeah. Leave some comments for some controversial topics that you want us to cover or maybe making statements that we can, you know, agree with or disagree with or argue in favor or against
[02:23:54] Unknown:
if maybe returning to the more structured format amongst just those of us. When we get somebody that we, are gonna debate that's gonna be a bigger, you know, like, a well, not that Wayne's not a big guest, but somebody that we're gonna be a more controversial debate will go back to a structure for sure instead of like this. This was more of a discussion debate, with very little debate.
[02:24:17] Unknown:
So when does this phase. So we're uncovering We're in the discovery phase. And if there's any fellow mites out there who wanna come and talk to us about what we've, misrepresented
[02:24:27] Unknown:
in terms of their 90 threes and their 30 threes and their 60 sixes and the numbers, and then we're all It would tickle Marcus Pink if you could if if if any of you tell Mike will come on here and argue with us and try and represent you're a cult. But with that, you can go ahead and kill it anytime, Steve.
[02:24:45] Unknown:
Pull the plug.
[02:24:51] Unknown:
He said he's backstage. This is great. Just sit there and just stare uncomfortably.
[02:24:58] Unknown:
Do you have any cats that I can sing a song? I was gonna call him Josie and the Pussycats. Do you have a pop band?
[02:25:03] Unknown:
My name is spooked,
[02:25:05] Unknown:
and I'm a kid. Someone wanted to adopt a kitten from the Balderson family. What's the process like? Is there a long application list? You can't have spookums.
[02:25:15] Unknown:
Maybe Bob. Yeah. Bob. And any number of the other 50 cats. Bocum says my Bocum says, obviously. Right? He's my buddy. He's my Cat says. My podcasting buddy.
[02:25:32] Unknown:
Yeah. So if Russell Brand tells you that these may be the end times, probably not the end times.
[02:25:39] Unknown:
Probably not if Russell Brand's saying it. I wouldn't listen to too much, he says.
[02:25:45] Unknown:
That's true. And what's Pierce Morgan saying? There's a lot of big talking heads.
[02:25:52] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Andrew, Vietnam Pierce was pretty interesting Pretty interesting to watch. He, definitely tore some people up. These mainstream people do not answer questions, and they're just full of shit. And there's a reason that they don't let it's kinda surprising that he's gained enough popularity that he can interact with some of these people because he's gonna put them right to the fire, and they don't like that. You know? I think they're out of ideas. I think the mainstream people are just like,
[02:26:22] Unknown:
we don't know what's going on. No one's telling us what the playbook is, what the plan is. Maybe at some point, they'd get in a few hours, maybe a few days heads up notice of what the big event is gonna be, but I don't think they know anymore. I think that's part of the excitement. So these, talking heads on traditional television, the mainstream media, the M5M, I don't think they have any idea of what's going on. So they can't talk about what's going on because there's certain things that they can't talk about that would explain why they can't talk about things.
[02:26:56] Unknown:
Well, and I think there's been such a they didn't expect a hard shift to the right that's happened. They didn't expect, the people to reject things as harshly as they are. They thought their little operation was just going along swimmingly. And so I I I think with that, these mainstream, productions have lost so much of their credibility and so much of their viewership that they're feeling like they need to delve into other areas. And it's a super interesting thing to see all around because I I don't know what to say about it because, his show's not that big. I mean, it's big. Don't get me wrong.
You know, comparatively to a lot of things, but it's not that big. And these mainstream news places, it's like, was anybody ever as big as what they claimed it was?
[02:27:49] Unknown:
I I really just don't know. What's with TikTok as well? The inflation of numbers, and now TikTok is maybe counting down until it's gone in America.
[02:27:59] Unknown:
Yeah. Is that a real new story? So I'm saying, were all these numbers always just horrifyingly inflated? Because you can't you can't really find anything that's, like, when Andrew Wilson, he says he's, like, the 3rd most super chatted thing on YouTube, Well, he's only got, what, like, a 100,000 subs, 120,000 or something like that. There show all kinds of shows with millions of subs. How are you gonna have millions of subs and you don't draw the same kind of support that a show with a 100,000 subs does? So that just tells me that a lot of these shows, they're just showing up with some bullshit, numbers. Oh, Steve's killing it. Love you guys. Don't have to listen to us anymore.
Or he's not and just is fucking with
Begin
Homemade Products
Debate Introduction: Christianity vs. Occult
Christianity and the Occult: A Discussion
The Dead Sea Scrolls and Controversial Theories
Spiritual Experiences and Drug Use
Synthetic Initiation and Spiritual Growth
Creation, God, and the Physical World
Gods, Tribalism, and Christianity's Role
End Times and the Antichrist
Tribulation and Christian Hope
Christianity and Those Other religions
Biblical Canon and Apocryphal Texts
Modern Christianity and Cultural Shifts
Current Events and Psychological Warfare
