Welcome to the The Confab, the term derives from "confidential talk", which was commonly used in the Prohibition Era for meetings and conversations that took place in the smoky, rule-breaking speakeasies of that time.
The informal, privacy focused and clandestine nature of Ungovernable Misfits lends itself to these discussions. So, grab a seat and a stiff drink from the concealed bar, listen and revel in the conversation.
On this episode, long time friend of the show, SeedSigner, joins Max for a touching base and touching grass conversation.
SHOW DISCUSSION
Max reconnects with SeedSigner after a year, diving into various topics and catching up on the progress of their project. They discuss the challenges of gaining visibility for SeedSigner, a grassroots Bitcoin project, and the hurdles faced in a space dominated by larger players with vested interests. Despite these challenges, SeedSigner remains committed to its mission of providing an open-source, DIY Bitcoin savings tool.
They also touch on the broader Bitcoin ecosystem, expressing concerns about the lack of focus on privacy and the increasing compliance culture within the community. The conversation shifts to personal experiences, including the balance of family life and work, and the importance of spending quality time with loved ones.
The discussion meanders through various topics, from the cultural differences between urban and rural areas in the UK and the US, to the potential of multisig setups for Bitcoin security. They also explore the vibrant Bitcoin community in Curacao and the promising developments in El Salvador.
Throughout the episode, they reflect on the changing landscape of Bitcoin conferences and podcasts, expressing a desire for more genuine, grassroots interactions and a focus on the core values of Bitcoin. Join them for an insightful and candid conversation about the state of Bitcoin, privacy, and the importance of community.
For the older episode mentioned in the podcast visit:
https://episodes.fm/1491067458/episode/ZTJkZTIwOGQtMWE0MS00NDY5LWE5ZWItMGU2MjkyMmJkNjk3
OR
https://ungovernablemisfits.com/podcast/air-gapped-bitcoin-signing-device
IMPORTANT LINKS
SHOW SPONSORS
FOUNDATION
https://foundation.xyz/ungovernable
Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.
As a sovereign computing company, Foundation is the antithesis of today’s tech conglomerates. Returning to cypherpunk principles, they build open source technology that “can’t be evil”.
Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show!
Use code: Ungovernable for $10 off of your purchase
VALUE FOR VALUE
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TIME:
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(00:01:14) BOOSTS
(00:03:51) THANK YOU FOUNDATION
(00:05:09) Catching Up with SeedSigner
(00:22:59) Balancing Work and Family Life
(00:28:05) Seedsigner's Trials and Tribulations
(00:36:17) Multisig is a Saver's Primary Tool
(00:46:24) Curacao: An OG's Hidden Gem
(00:58:46) Observations in El Salvador
(01:05:46) Bitcoin Privacy Sucks. Thoughts?
(01:16:25) Seedsigner Signing Off 🫡
[00:00:04]
Unknown:
Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.
[00:00:11] Unknown:
Bitcoin. Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it.
[00:00:27] Unknown:
Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. Welcome back to another confab episode on Ungovernable Misfits. This episode was with SeedSigner. We hadn't caught up for about a year, and it was a good chance to get into some of the topics I had on my mind and just to catch up with him. I always enjoy a catch up with SeedSigner. And if you haven't already checked out their incredible project, I would do that now. Jordan will link in the show notes some of the other episodes that I've done with them. Incredible project, great guy, And I think you're gonna really enjoy this. Before we start, I wanna say thank you to everyone who's been boosting the last confab episode with Kerim.
I have too much to say about this confab, so I'll basically say nothing. He has a habit of that. He says a lot without saying a lot, but thank you for the sats, John. Late stage Huddle, evil exists in the hearts of men and Hillary Clinton. Chet. Yep. Yep. Yep. Good one. Deep shit, and I love it. L m f a o. Buy a fucking second mic. Cunt. So sweet as usual. Thank you, Chet. Yeah. I will do. I'm I'm gonna be buying another one. Late stage Huddl again. I boosted something here, and it's gone now. It shows up in history, but not the text. If the boost, anyway, that Hillary Clinton, quote, made me laugh and my issues with fountain continue.
Okay, mate. Well, I have now booked a call. We're gonna be doing a confab very, very soon with Oscar. And, I'll ask him about some of these things, and hopefully, we can get it rectified. Fundamentals. Kerim was an incredible guest. I used to watch a lot of YouTube videos on people in k holes. It's incredible to have someone come here and explain what the fuck is actually happening there. God bless the confab. Chad Farrow, loving the episode so far, Max. Also, fuck war. Agreed, mate. Unless it's on your doorstep. Winthrop, your description of people as little whirlwinds of particles that are shared and exchanged when we interact is spot on.
Call it data, energy, quantum particles, whatever. It's very legit. It sounds like you integrated that experience nicely too, which is rare. It's easy to look back on it as just the drugs rather than letting it inform your worldview. What's cool is you don't have to be in physical proximity to the person so you can publish a podcast. You and your listeners are also treated to a bit of this exchange of energy. It's quite cool to experience this and be aware of it happening in the moment. Yeah. Maybe we're all exchanging energy. That's what this is all about.
I'm not gonna read the rest of the boost. I think that's a nice place to cut it. Nice message. And I appreciate everyone who's been sending these boosts in. I do read them all. I appreciate them all. I just don't read them all at the beginning of a show because otherwise, we won't get into it. Before we do get into it, I just wanna also say a huge thank you to Foundation. Foundation have been supporting this show for many years now and been building the best hardware in the space. I'm very proud to be working with them. They make cypherpunk tools for fuck quits. Even I know how to use these. I can keep myself safe and secure.
And if you're thinking about upgrading your setup or you're using some shitty hardware or you don't have any at all and you have questions, you can reach out and ask me, and I'll go through it with you. If you haven't already seen these beautiful devices, I suggest you go to foundation dot x, yzed and use the code Ungovernable. That will get you a discount. These are absolutely incredible. I use them all the time, and they'd be perfect for either single sig or to integrate into your multisig setup. Maybe you can even throw in a seed signer. They have seed signer functionality as well, so these things work great together.
As I said, you have any questions, you can reach out. If they're very technical, I'll pass you on to queue, but I recommend these to all my friends and family. Enjoy the show. How about now?
[00:05:11] Unknown:
You sound, I'm not an audio file, so I don't have any good adjectives.
[00:05:16] Unknown:
Silky smooth?
[00:05:18] Unknown:
Yeah. That is the hi fi.
[00:05:22] Unknown:
Good. I don't know what was going on there. All the settings are the same. I just thought I'll send it through again.
[00:05:27] Unknown:
Yeah. I can only hope my sound is good. I'm using my, my LARP microphone that I only get out every once in a while. What one are you using? Well, once upon a time before Seed Center was a thing, after I'd stepped away from the job and I was stay at home dad, I knew I wanted to do something, and I thought that podcasting might be that something. So if you're gonna try to be a podcaster, what's the thing you have to do is buy some obnoxious, like, large, large microphone with a pop filter and everything.
[00:05:57] Unknown:
Mhmm. And, yeah, I did just that. Now I never use it. Yeah. I did the same when I first started. I, I asked a mate who was into, like, all audio stuff, and I ended up with, like, all these different bits of equipment and mixers and different mics and all this stuff. And I didn't know how to use it, and everything sounded terrible for ages. And then I bought a 100 quid mic, one of these, Yeti blue things, and it's just a USB mic. And it's not the best mic in the world, but it does the job, and there's no faff with it. So that's what I stick to. Yeah. Keep it simple. Exactly. Well, mate, it's been, it's been a very long time.
If it was almost anybody else today, I'd have canceled because I've been going for, like, 30 hours now with kids screaming in my ears for the last 6 hours today. So, so I was like, fuck, you know. But I've been looking forward to having you back on and, just having a chat, really. State of Bitcoin, what's going on with you, what's going on with seed signer, and everything else. So I've made myself a Lemsip, and, yeah, looking forward to catching up with you. Well, I appreciate that. I'm,
[00:07:13] Unknown:
I'm in the midst. I think I'm a little bit further along in the journey with the kids than you. But, yeah, my my daughter is a softball player, and, she has a game this afternoon. And, I their the season that they they go into is just like it's over as soon as it starts. They have, I think, 5 games this week, and, it's like a 5 week season, and then they're in the playoffs. And I don't anyhow, don't mean to digress, but I do appreciate the
[00:07:45] Unknown:
What's softball? Is softball like baseball, basically?
[00:07:50] Unknown:
No? Yeah. That's that's a loaded question.
[00:07:55] Unknown:
So I'm up for it. You have to excuse this.
[00:07:58] Unknown:
It is, you would if you were to see a softball game, in some ways, you would have a tough time distinguishing it from a baseball game. It is primarily a game that's played by women or females, I should say. But in the seventies eighties, softball is actually a much more popular game. There were more competitive leagues. It's like baseball, except the ball is larger, and so it doesn't travel, I don't think, as far. It's a little bit I don't know. If you don't play tennis, you play pickleball kind of a thing. But I don't wanna disparage it at all. Like, the girls that she plays with, and it's a relatively popular collegiate sport. And a lot of the girls that play it are really first class athletes that have honed the skills that are associated with the game. So,
[00:08:48] Unknown:
it's just a variation on baseball. It's so it's not like because here, we've got this thing called rounders that generally the girls will play rounders, which is like it literally is baseball, but just like with a shorter bat. It's like almost like a like a old school, like, police truncheon size bat.
[00:09:07] Unknown:
Right. It's everything else. It's just baseball. It's exactly the same. See, I didn't even I wouldn't think that you had baseball or any baseball like games there, but I I would've been totally wrong.
[00:09:18] Unknown:
We're sort of you do, like, pretty much everyone in the UK plays at most schools. Like, it's pretty much football. Mhmm. Right. Right. At private schools, it's rugby, cricket, and football. And then they'll throw in, like, a few other things. Like, a lot of the private schools, you can, like, you can play basketball, but you gotta do, like, an after school club because it's not really, like, a sport that they generally play. Or, like, you can do baseball, but it'd be, like, something that you'd yeah. Again, you'd, like, do outside of school. But, generally, here is, like,
[00:09:52] Unknown:
rugby and football and cricket is pretty much the big ones. Yeah. Yeah. Is, lacrosse is getting to be a bigger deal here in the States. Do you guys have that at all?
[00:10:01] Unknown:
Only for girls. Oh, really? So not not field hockey, but, like, lacrosse with the net Yeah. Lacrosse. Like, again, it would only be private schools who play it. The girls would play lacrosse. It was quite a big thing. Lacrosse,
[00:10:16] Unknown:
rounders, tennis, things like that. And then, yeah, rugby for the guys. I guess the only other thing I can say about softball is here in the states, it's kind of like a a sport that is declining in popularity. Mhmm. It was probably much bigger when, you know, I was a kid 20 or 30 years ago, but it's still a bigger deal in rural America as opposed to the more urban areas. So when you get into teams that, you know, are from the country here, yeah, they've they're generally more competitive, and they take it more seriously. So Mhmm. It's an interesting dynamic.
[00:10:48] Unknown:
My read on Americans, because I speak to you guys quite a lot now, is the the people in the south seem to be a lot more like what people are like in the countryside here. So, like, city people generally in the UK, especially, like, more Londony types, are generally, like, quite rude and abrasive and annoying. And then the further you get out either up north or into the countryside, people are more friendly and slow. I don't mean slow in a negative way. I mean, like, slow as in they just operate and talk and have time to converse with people, and they're not always, like, rushing, and they seem to have better manners.
There's a lot more kind of like I don't know whether it's because it's smaller communities when you're in the countryside that if you act like a complete dickhead, then no one's gonna wanna speak to you again. Whereas in London, it doesn't matter because there's so many people.
[00:11:40] Unknown:
Yeah. It's I I I think there's definitely some truth that I it's like an urban versus rural sort of thing. Like in a Mhmm. In a rural area, I think there's still those vestiges of community being a collaborative thing to where, you know, people helped each other get the harvest dinner or somebody's barn fell down. They I don't know anything about stuff in the country, but I get the sense there's a much more collaborative like, these people really do have a connection to a time, and it's probably still to some degree that they actually rely on each other for help. It's a natural incentive to be to play nice, as it were. But, yeah, I with what you're saying about Londoners, I I think of that as like a New Yorker kind of vibe who Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's parallels there. About New Yorkers, but it's just a it's a different way of communicating that's more abrasive and more direct, I guess. I hate London. I fucking hate it. I always feel, like, rushed and just, like, busy and crammed and Fiat. Not for me. So I'll ask.
Mhmm. Because I I've I've randomly pulling people I know who are from the United Kingdom. On the outside with the videos and riots and knife crime and stuff like that, like, is is does that connected with reality at all, or is or is it just the worst things that are happening? Or that's what I'm seeing on social media and it's it's overblown. There you see all these tweets that, like, London has fallen.
[00:13:06] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John asked me this quite a lot and and mister Crown and some of the other guys in the Ungovernable Misfits asked me quite a lot because they see the same thing. My answer's like, it hasn't really I can only judge something through my own eyes and what I see because I don't trust what the media shows. To me, I haven't really seen any change, any, like, dramatic change. Mhmm. That said, where I live, knife crime is not exactly a shock. Like, if I hear that someone's been knifed within a very close radius of me, I wouldn't be like, oh my god. Like, it wouldn't be a shocking thing. I'd be like, that's a shame.
[00:13:46] Unknown:
What what is the motivation? Is it primarily robbery, or is it, like, racially motivated, or is it I don't know what what else it could be. I don't think
[00:13:55] Unknown:
well, where I am, there's not there's racism everywhere, but pretty much everyone just, like, gets along. But there's a lot of there's a lot of crackheads and, like, junkies, and there's a lot of desperate people, and there's a lot of gangs. So, I think it probably comes down to that. And there's also just like it seems to be, like, quite a disenfranchised violent youth, and I don't know how much of that is, like, culture through music or film or other things that may be for example, you have, like you go about, like, 10 years. Yep. You'd have certain gangs who would act or dress or move a certain way, and you kind of knew and there were certain areas where you'd kind of avoid. You kind of generally know the ones that might be carrying a gun or a knife or something like that. Like now, all the kids, nice kids and stuff, they dress as if they are that.
You do what I mean? Like No. I know exactly what you mean. Like, if you said boost them, they'd probably shit themselves, but they, like, try to portray this kind of, like, this kind of look. But then what happens is it I I think, anyway, like, it escalates is that then some of those people in those groups do actually start carrying knives, and a few of them are actually involved in gangs or, like, they come from a from an area or, like, a background where they are really struggling, and they've they've had just not really, like, a great time in life. Mhmm. And I think a lot of these kids just don't really, like, see what they have to lose. It's just like a race to the bottom of, like, who wins is, like, who has the least to lose because they'll just do anything. And, like, it's you know, around here, within within my dog walk, there has been kids under the age of 13 who have stabbed each other to death. Oh, that's horrible. Many of them. Like, it's it's, like, everywhere.
It's just I I just think it's, yeah, it's like a bit of front, and then they don't really have anything to lose. They think, well, fuck it. What's the what, you know, what's the best I'm gonna see? And then the only people they have to look up to, the only people who are doing well in their areas or in their lives are the people who would, like, dealing drugs or whatever. They kind of look up to those people. So I guess it's probably kind of the same everywhere, but it's just like it's more knives here. And it wouldn't be uncommon, like, if you had a you have just like a a car pullout on another car, mini little bit of road rage, someone beeps.
You know? Like, for me, I just wouldn't care. Be like, they've made a mistake. Whatever. I'm not gonna get angry about that. But someone will jump out with a knife and run across to a car. Like it's, you know, like, they'll stab someone to death because they've beat them. Oh, gosh.
[00:16:41] Unknown:
At least with that, like, you know, road rage here in America, if it involves a gun, like, you are potentially just trapped in your car being shot at, at least with a knife. You know, if your windows are closed, hopefully, you can drive away. Yeah. This is true. But so so 2 things come to mind. One one is definitely, I think media plays a role for sure. Mhmm. And that manifests itself in a variety of ways. Like in America, hip hop culture has become ubiquitous, I think, whether you're in a small town or the suburbs or urban areas or whatever. But then even in an entirely different manifestation, you see middle aged dudes in their forties who, on the weekends, they wanna buy a $30,000 motorcycle and dress up like they're in a motorcycle gang and Mhmm. You know, go bar hopping or something. Like like, there's this I I don't know if it's like people are just bored with their everyday lives, you know, their job or whatever, and they they have this sort of I don't wanna call that death wish, but some sort of yearning for something more dangerous or something more exciting.
[00:17:47] Unknown:
Escapism.
[00:17:49] Unknown:
Some type of But then so, the much lambasted interview that Tucker Carlson did with Vladimir Putin, one of the things that Putin brought up that I think is actually compelling is the media mainstream movies, mainstream music, the stories that a culture tells itself are telling about that culture in the direction that it's headed. And I I don't know what Russian media is like. He's obviously Putin's somebody who's talking his own book and is trying to portray his own country in the best light. But I look at the films that are popular in America, and it's it's it's hard to find films that you would be comfortable watching with your kids these days, you know, unless it's specifically like a like a Disney Pixar or one of the other studios that makes those. It's it's everything is just geared towards violence and sex and foul language and blah blah blah.
[00:18:41] Unknown:
Yeah. I think, it certainly doesn't help, does it? Like, especially when you're impressionable, like, as a kid, there should never be a ban on creativity in any way, but it's like, I think it just comes down to, like, you know, if you're a good parent and you have a kid, they suddenly start looking like, okay. They're doing something here that is, like, crossing the line where they're starting to become, like, is too far what they're doing. You might just reign them in a little bit. But I think what happens is, like, a lot of these kids, their parents are junkies or alcoholics. They don't work. They don't do fuck all. They don't care about their kids. And they then go and meet groups of people who say, oh, you can make a bit of money here. You're not gonna go to prison anyway. You're too young. Like, if you get arrested, like, fuck what's gonna happen to you. Don't worry about it. You want that pair of trainers? Well, we can sort that out for you. And it's just everywhere. You can see that, like, you know, if you've got, like, a strong role model in your life, you'd go, well, hold on a minute. I don't wanna be like this guy. I wanna be like my dad. I wanna be like this person I look up to who's, like, has a respectable job and, like, everyone likes them and they're kind to people and but they're a strong person and, like, you you have someone to look up to who's, like, a good figure in your life. But if the best thing that you've seen in your life is, like, someone who flashes a bit of cash and, like, people are scared of them, And that's better than, like, your junky parents who are just, like, complete wasters and don't care about you. You can understand why there's that draw.
Yeah. In short, like, I don't think it's worse. I just think it's the same, but I think it's just like there's a ratcheting of hate in the media. All this stuff about racist hate and this and that. Yeah. There are there are, like, things that go on, like, anywhere else, but, like, I live in a very, very, very multicultural place. I've never had any issues. Like, no one's ever there's never been an issue. It's just not a thing. You go to the gym. There's someone from every race. Everyone gets on. Everyone's fine. There's no difference. You walk down any street. There's no difference. Everyone gets on. Or they don't, but it's not a racial thing. You know what I mean? It's just like you have a problem with someone, whatever. I think it's like, well, if we ratchet this up, we can cause some more fear, which seems to always be what media are are wanting all the time. Yeah. And then you have, like, angry impressionable people who maybe aren't smart enough to, like, join the dots. And there's a lot of people whose life were destroyed after COVID and just generally just like the state of living in the UK is is really hard. Like, wages are very low in comparison to what things cost. The lift to work ratio is really bad. And so people are just, like, angry, and then they turn on the news, and it's like, we know you're angry because of everything that we've done, but let me just tell you.
Your mate, Fred, is the one you should be angry at because of his skin color. Or because he's a racist or because he's whatever. You know? Exactly. Yeah. What do you think
[00:21:39] Unknown:
about dual income households versus single income households? I have become like a because I I've I've had both experiences. And if you can figure if you're a young person out there and, you know, you're just starting out with a family or you're planning a family, if you can work it out to where only one parent has to work, even if that means sacrificing the kind of car you drive or the kind of house you live in, I think it's absolutely worth considering because you just there are some things that you just can't put a price on and you won't get access to those things. It's not any sort of knock on people who choose in a family where both parents choose to work, but I've been there. And even if you like your job, at the end of the day, like, we all need some me time at some point, and there's just there's just no wiggle room at different times with kids that have, These days, kids just don't have school and homework. They have activities that they're involved in. You gotta run them to all that stuff, and it's just you get a much more low time preference opportunity to interact with your kids, even even for the person who's working because they can, you know, they're not trying to catch up on Saturdays with all the things they've fallen behind in the house
[00:22:52] Unknown:
and all that kind of stuff. It's Oh, yeah. I I agree with you. Like, that would certainly be our goal. I don't know if you know this. I've I've gone full time with the podcast. So I did hear that in your episode with, Zach. I think I heard that in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I would have spoken to him about it. So part of that was it's not only like I wanna do this for obviously, I wanna do this full time, but it was also like I wanna have time with my family. We're nowhere near a stage where, like, I'm earning enough money for us to be comfortable and only one of us working. But we're doing it just because I had some savings. They've been sold and, like, we've given ourselves a little bit of runway to try and make it work because the simple fact is it doesn't work the other way. Like, it it's doable, but it's not living.
The way that we were living before was, like, my missus and me were ships passing in the night. Right. All I did was work Monday to Sunday all the time. And when I wasn't working because I was having to grab one of the kids while she, you know, went to the toilet even or something like that, I'd be, like, extremely stressed because I'm like, I've got so much stuff I've gotta fucking do. Yep. That made you feel guilty because you're like, oh, I should be spending time with the kids and I want to. Or you snapped at them and and you just like, that's the horrible feeling. Exactly. And so, you know, in that situation, you're always tired. You're never providing enough anyway. Well, I've never been in that situation where I can provide enough anyway. And you're not giving the love and attention you need, and you're fucking exhausted. So when that's when you are spending time, it's not even really quality time, and you're feeling anxious and stressed because you can't earn the money. So it's like it's just a lose lose lose situation.
And I think anyone who's trying to juggle both having jobs and, oh, well, you can you pick them up after you finished your shift and do do it's it's mayhem, and and mine are young. So I can't even imagine how much harder it gets when they've got all these extra clubs and friends. Mine don't do that stuff yet. They love, like, breaking my stuff and, like, eating toilet roll and spitting it on the floor. Like, that's that's as much as, like, they love at the moment. They're so like, they're relatively simple to manage. They're annoying and they're tiring, but they're relatively simple to manage. I can't imagine what it like, you know, when they get older.
[00:25:13] Unknown:
So, I I actually as I think about this, I think we've been down very similar roads. So in 2017, and I I probably told you a story already, and I won't belabor it. But in 2017, I sold all of my Bitcoin, and that paved the way for me to step away from my career and be a stay at home dad. And, there there was a lot of pain associated with that. I think you've alluded to that too. Sure. Yeah. But it's a conscious decision and Bitcoin is a tool. But I I have to tell you, like, I my net worth would be wildly higher, obviously, right now if if I hadn't done that. But the I have no regrets. There's like, I got to be with my children at a time in their lives that I'll never get to experience again, especially during the whole COVID insanity.
It was that much more steadying to have a parent at home, you know, when the kids are trying to do school from home and all this kind of stuff. It it was it it I I wouldn't trade it for anything. So I hope if that's reassuring to you in any way, you I think you've you've made a sensible and probably ultimately a good decision. It is reassuring
[00:26:20] Unknown:
because it is scary at times. It's more exciting than scary, and it's now just me adjusting my expectations of how much I can get done in the day. Right. Just accepting that, like, things are different with kids and trying not to be too much of an artist about it and getting too, like, hung up on little things And also just, like, working fucking hard in the time that I have to make this all work because otherwise, it's, you know, you run out of choices. You run out of options, and it's back to the fiat mine. So I know how that is. So it's quite a good incentive to
[00:26:57] Unknown:
to do everything that you can to make it work, basically. The hardest thing is, like, when you have things that you wanna do, whether it's a fiat job or me working on seats, are you working on the podcast and everything that is involved in that? Obviously, there are times when we have to have focus and be able to work on the things we have to work on. But I find myself sometimes slipping into this frame of mind where my kids are in the way, and that's probably I I try to catch myself as quickly as I can with that because that's when I noticed that my temper really gets short. And it's all about your paradigm and how you're framing the things that are really important in what you're working on. And, yeah, it's an adventure.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
That's a good point. Well, mine is now I just work from the gym. So I get up. I cycle to the gym. I work from there. And then when I come back, I accept that nothing productive is done. Like, it's just Yeah. It's family time. Like, there there's no chance, it's family time. Like, there there's no chance. It's why, like, we're recording now. It's, like, it's 10 o'clock at night here because they're asleep, and so I have some peace. But unless they're asleep, there's just there's nothing productive can be done.
And that's okay. Talking of productive with the project and working on that, I've seen some frustration recently. Sachs felt it. I felt it. You've expressed it. What can we do to get you guys more seen and get a bit more of a platform? Because it's infuriating to see the lack of coverage. And I really thought, like, last time we had all 3 of you guys, we had Keith
[00:28:35] Unknown:
and Nick and you come on, and we really went deep on the project. And I was kind of like by the way. That was that was absolutely amazing. I I'm extremely proud of that episode, and that's like, I'll probably listen to that episode in 10 years and, like, be just regardless of where SeedSetter is, I I that will make me exceedingly happy.
[00:28:55] Unknown:
It was great. You all seem to have such a nice way. Like, you're very respectful of each other. You're very clear about who does what and who's good at what, and you lean on each other in that way, which is really cool to see. What I sort of took away from that is I was like, this is a fucking amazing project and team, and you don't get the coverage that I think you should. I don't think that it's ever gonna be through the PodConf approved groups. How does this get some more funding, get some more eyes on it? I'm wondering whether there's, like, a a different route, basically. And I haven't come up with it yet, but, I'm wondering if you've sort of been thinking about ways to get more eyes on it because it's a pretty solid rounded thing now, like, compared to when we first had the conversation.
Right. And now we're in a very different situation.
[00:29:51] Unknown:
Right. It's, I haven't figured out either, and I think there are some unique dynamics at play internally with our project that maybe it never becomes this this I I always kinda operated by this paradigm that seed signer was gonna have this moment where it would suddenly, like, click, like in the in the zeitgeist or in, you know, larger public perception. And there have been several moments I've thought where they've been big steps forward. But I think because it is an organic grassroots thing, you know, as I frequently joke, we don't have a marketing department. It really is shared just 1 Bitcoiner to another or 1 Bitcoiner who puts one together and thinks, wow, this is pretty cool and wants to share it with his local meetup or just a few Bitcoiners that he connects with, he or she. I think maybe maybe that's just the right way, and that's how we get there. And I have to take a low time preference sort of thing. When I first started this, sometimes you see things and you intuitively understand them, and then you have to, over time, back into the reasons why something's a good idea or why something makes sense.
When I first had the idea for Seed Center and saw where it could be, not where it started out, but where it could be such like it is now, like it's it's a reasonably polished tool that if you put it into someone hands someone's hands, they're not thinking, oh my gosh. This is this clumsy, junky DIY thing that I wouldn't trust with anything. It it stands on par with something that you would pay to use as a Bitcoin savings tool. When I looked forward and saw what it potentially could be, I had this naive expectation that the Bitcoin ecosystem, as I perceived it, would somehow welcome SeedSiner with open arms, and it would be this thing that could be celebrated, if that doesn't sound too arrogant, in that we're really doing this for the right reasons. We're trying to keep the right variables in play. I've very intentionally tried to steer this as a a volunteer, you know, fully open source software thing, have turned away angel money early on, made it a point to open source, you know, everything that was involved with the project.
I think part of the the rub was I think we experienced a little too much success a little too early in terms of the exposure that the project got, and I think that set my expectations at a level that wasn't realistic. Because as it grew, not all of the hardware manufacturers, but some of the hardware manufacturers, I wouldn't say they're worried that Seed Center is gonna take over all their market share, but it's not something that they're gonna advocate for and they might even take swipes at it when given the opportunity. So welcomed with open arms thing was naive. I didn't have any sense of the marketing cycle within Bitcoin and where the money flows from from people who sell devices into events and podcasts and personalities with shield codes and all this kind of stuff, the incentives that that kind of environment creates kinda tends to choke out some things. I mean, we have Rudolfo Novak routinely shits on seed center. He'll call it Raspberry Pi, and he he very rarely actually says seed center. He just refers to Raspberry Pi. But even aside from that kind of overt stuff, it's sometimes difficult to get onto the main stage at conferences.
There there are just these subtle it's difficult to get on, you know, some podcasts that have certain sponsors, and it's a little bit that's why I say it's maybe it's just gonna happen 1 Bitcoiner at a time. I I don't wanna whine about it. Like, we're continuing to build this because we're passionate. And, like, every time I sit down to work with my cold storage, I absolutely love doing it with a seed signer. It's kind of like other things that I've built. You build it because you're so excited to have one and then, you know, if other people can have one too, that's great. But I think that's that's the real reason why Keith and Nick and Jean and our other contributors do it because they have goodness in their heart and something they just wanna hold in their hands and have to use.
[00:33:50] Unknown:
The thing that frustrates me is not that there are other companies who have a vested interest in in not talking about your products. Like, that is something that I expect. But what frustrates me is, like, that it's not discussed more widely on more platforms because it's not for everyone. But you don't know who's listening to this and who could desperately need to build one of these things. Most of these people are probably gonna tune into what podcasts have got the biggest numbers. They might click on one of those. They don't need to listen to the 500th episode with Michael Saylor explaining thermodynamics.
There might actually be a person who wants to actually use Bitcoin. And then they don't know that they can build this thing with off the shelf parts, which would be perfect for them, and they might never find it because maybe they're not on Twitter or, you know, Nosta or, you know, maybe they're not really deep into this thing. And then they don't know that it exists. If someone just says, this might not be the storage that I use, but it's really, really useful, and it could be really good in a multisig, and everyone should consider it for those sort of things, that would be honest reporting.
Honestly, I don't use a seed signer. I use a foundation passport. I'm happy with it. It's good. I'm, like, not that techie. I don't like tinkering with stuff. I don't live in too much of an oppressive regime where, like, I'm worried about something coming through the post. You know, I don't have a sense of my address, but you know what I mean? And it's like, I'll say that. I'm not gonna, like, say I use things that I don't, but it's really important that people know that it's there, and that's what frustrates me. I think the the multisig thing that you touch on is is gonna become increasingly important over time. I yeah.
[00:35:41] Unknown:
We are recording this this week. I don't know how long it'll be before this airs, but this is the week when all the the Hezbollah pager explosion, episode is in the news, which is which is mind blowing. Just the the scale, and that's a whole separate subject, but it's a pretty stark example of how supply and distribution chains can be weaponized, to, in this case, attack people, but also potentially with Bitcoin to steal people. And, really, the only practical solution we have right now is multisig. And it's my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary. My personal opinion, if you are truly using Bitcoin as your primary savings tool and that is what you put most of your excess income in and you're planning to save that, you know, over a period of years, I think I I would struggle to think of anyone who shouldn't be in a multisig.
And the best way to do multisig is with multiple devices that are different hardware profiles, different software, libraries, and Seed Center fits into that as something that's a little bit different with different trade offs than the standard, manufactured device model. And I I I I think maybe that's our sweet spot. There there are a lot of other uses for a seed signer, but that's it's a great use case for 1. But, yeah, I I don't know. Where are you at on multisig? Is that something you think that most people can get to? Or
[00:37:11] Unknown:
I I talked to Q about this the other day, actually. My main concern with multisig is still privacy that you stick out like a sore thumb at the moment. That still is an issue, but I know that things will change over time. Right. It's certainly something that I think is especially for someone who has a lot of wealth in Bitcoin. Yeah, it makes sense. And it certainly makes sense to have different devices from different manufacturers or or build your own and and, like you know, so that you don't have so much risk there with supply chain attacks or some sort of fault or bug or something. You know, you you're you're spreading your risk a little bit. Right. It's not something for me right now because of the privacy trade offs, but when we get to a stage where that isn't a concern, I don't think it's difficult now. It's not like I'm not looking at it and going, oh, I don't wanna do that because it's gonna be so difficult.
It's just privacy concerns. Sure. That's fair. But we're not far off, I don't think. I mean, I don't know how long. Maybe you have some more insight into it, but it doesn't seem like it's a 1000000 miles away.
[00:38:23] Unknown:
No. I I am not gonna opine about that because I'm admittedly the least technical person in our core group of contributors. I think, Taproot improves that a ton if I understand it correctly, but, I don't have I'm not gonna claim to have the definitive final word on that. What you were saying about the podcasting space kind of resonates with me in terms of I so I I am fortunate in that, you know, I travel a few times a year and I get to speak with Bitcoiners who are in different parts of the country and different parts of the world, And I have been sensing this kind of growing weariness with maybe maybe the I I haven't totally figured out the pod comp thing yet. Like, how much of that is tongue in cheek?
It's it's a very it's a very unique brand of humor, and sometimes it seems like a little too funny, I guess. I don't know. But anyhow, just like like with with, what's his name? The the the guy who now owns a football club, Real Bedford or whatever. McCot Yeah. McCourt. Like, with him winding down his podcast saying that he just felt like he was getting bored in the Bitcoin space. And so I like, when you have Lynn Alden on 6 times a year and you're in your 8th time you've had this person on and and usually every time he has a guest on, like, the first minute or 2, they discuss how many times that person has been on the show. In that kind of environment, I could kind of see it getting boring and repetitive to do that podcast.
And that's what, honestly, a lot of the larger podcasts end up being. And it's it ends up being very focused on, you know, macro and and number go up and how rich we're all gonna be. And I I personally am just getting weary with all that crap. It's just,
[00:40:24] Unknown:
I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Me too. Me too. It's it's really dull. But it's what brings in the numbers, which is what brings in the sponsors, which brings in the money, and they can stack their sats and, you know, it's it's it's all that stuff. But it is boring. And I know you've had your differences with them with the samurai and but I I've had a real feeling since everything went down with them. I felt a real turn and a real change again, like a real ratchet up of the compliance, forgetting what we're here for kind of thing and almost like an apathetic kind of, well, at least we'll be rich. That's kind of like the feeling that I like, you know, at least at least we'll be rich. Right. We might not be free, which is like what we said we were here for, but maybe we didn't really believe all that in the first place. Like, maybe we'll be comfy enough in our Bentley. It'll be fine.
That's why I do what I do with John, and I do what I do with q. I'm kind of never really touching on the macro stuff because everyone's always wrong on that as well. It's like, you know, I followed that for, I don't know, 7 years or something and, like, all these predictions and, you know, this stuff. Realize they have a new prediction
[00:41:42] Unknown:
every other month and Yeah. Like, it it just, like I I was I was in the exact same place, and I'm following, like, Lin Alden and Luke Gromen and Mhmm. Who knows all the other people. And it's just like, it's it's just, they exist to attract eyeballs. I don't know Mhmm. I don't know what the what the business model is behind any of it. I it's something about selling books and being on podcasts and conference appearances, and I'm sure there's ad revenue from Twitter and blah. Who knows? I don't know. But, yeah, I I'm I'm over all of that stuff. There are still people in the space
[00:42:19] Unknown:
who do care about freedom and they do care about privacy and they do care about moving forward. Amen. You know, you kind of have to focus on the positive aspects because otherwise, you do just go, oh, fuck this. What's the point in doing this anymore if these are the people who are gonna be I'm gonna be associating with? Because I remember coming in I mean, I wasn't an early person. I wasn't, like, early like you or a lot of the other people in the space, but, like, coming in in 2017 and getting to meet Bitcoiners for the first time and, like, going to the the beach retreats and going and, like, shaking the hands of other Bitcoiners. And I remember the feeling being like, oh, these are, like, really my type of people. There was no flashiness.
There was no mouthy people who wanted loads of attention. They were, like, generally just kind of like family people who really didn't appreciate people interfering in their lives and weren't that happy with overreach in any aspect. They just like, just leave me alone. Let me work hard. Let me look after my family. Don't come and interfere. That's all they wanted. They cared about freedom, and they cared about free speech. And I just really liked it. Like, really excited me to see that. And then I was meeting other people. I'm like, oh, they're really smart. They can do all this, like, clever developer stuff that I have no idea how to do, and, like, this is cool. And, you know, you become friends with them because you're asking them questions about all this different stuff, and you realize that, okay. They might be, like, super geeky and know stuff that I'm never gonna know, but, like, they're really nice people. And so you make these friends. But I found, certainly, over the last, like, 18 months, 2 years, I don't wanna go to the conferences. I don't wanna, like, meet most of the people who are on these conference circuits.
I'd never say yes to going and speaking at one of these things. I'm I'm just not interested. Like, the people who seem to be at them, it feels to me like, I wanna be like a little mini celeb. I wanna have, like, a little following. I wanna have, like, a way of influencing people and and, like, extracting value from these people who I'm gonna tell them there's this freedom technology because it kind of sounds cool, and I kind of sound like a cypherpunk and blah blah blah. But, like, at the end of the day, I'm here for fear. And then I think, like, go into a fiat job then. You're gonna earn way more money. Like, even if you have a really successful, like, platform or product in the Bitcoin space, it's really hard to make money in it. So just go and get a decent job and just, like, fuck off. Yeah. It's,
[00:44:50] Unknown:
so I I am not super connected into, you know, the the conference scene or the influencer, web or anything like that, but I do go to some conferences. And as a speaker, you, of course, get to go to the backstage area or whatever blah blah. And it's it's having gotten a peek behind the curtain in a lot of these events, it's just been kinda disheartening. Yeah. Because everybody who's in that level who's speaking on the stage, not everybody, but most of those people are, as you kind of allude, looking to make a name for themselves. They're looking, you know, for connections to make a business deal happen. They're looking for their next podcast appearance. They're looking for their next referral shill or blah blah blah. Mhmm. But I will say even at I I have yet to attend a conference where I have not been able to connect with really solid people once you leave the velvet rope area.
Even the most fiat of conferences, when when you connect with the clubs, that for me, I don't even like the word pleb, but I'll use it anyway. Like, just average everyday Bitcoiners who maybe they just found out about about Bitcoin 6 months ago or maybe they've been around for 10 years. Who knows? But, people who are just there to meet other people and connect and talk about this thing like that, to me, that's that's still just a magical experience that I I treasure it every time I can get it. You Bitcoiners really are something about the incentives, Bitcoiners are really solid people. So I I I was invited to, an island in the Caribbean called Curacao to do a talk a couple weeks ago.
[00:46:34] Unknown:
Where which island is that? So Curacao.
[00:46:40] Unknown:
It's cur
[00:46:42] Unknown:
a Google
[00:46:43] Unknown:
it. Yeah. And then put in c, but it's really this c with a weird squiggly line under it. Oh, well. Yeah. A o. Okay. Curacao is off of the northern coast of Venezuela. It's a Caribbean island, and its its closest neighbor is Aruba. And Okay. This I I don't know if you're familiar with the Beach Boys song about, what I don't know the title of the song. Aruba, Jamaica. I'm gonna take you.
[00:47:13] Unknown:
I I vaguely
[00:47:15] Unknown:
I'm not a master of that. I vaguely Curacao didn't make that song, and I think people on the island are resentful of that. But, but it is an absolutely gorgeous island. They're connected with the Netherlands, so they're an independent country, but they're still under the kingdom of the Netherlands, whatever that means. Okay. But they, beautiful Caribbean island. And the guy who invited me there is an OG Bitcoiner who, I'm not gonna say too much here because I don't know how publicly he is with some of his details, but he was somewhere else in the world and ended up in Curacao for some reason. I don't know if it's because he, you know, suddenly had a ton of money because he was an early Bitcoiner or because he didn't like the place he was living. Whatever. Anyhow, he's in Curacao and has been there for several years. And Curacao really, punches above its weight class in terms of Bitcoin adoption.
And if you go to Nathan Day's B2C map
[00:48:13] Unknown:
Oh, Nathan Day. Jesus Christ. Awesome, dude. He's the worst. He's he's the one who bullied me into joining Nostra again, just constantly bleating at me. Again? Had you joined and stepped away and then came back? Yeah. That's exactly what happened. I got sick of it, and then he he just constantly him and Ben Gunn just constantly remind me
[00:48:34] Unknown:
why I need to be on there. In the beginning, Noster was kind of this echo chamber of how good Noster was. Mhmm. But it's it's got I I
[00:48:43] Unknown:
I'm not on Noster as much as Twitter, but I'm increasingly on Noster some. It is getting better. I Yeah. Say a lot of what I say just to wind people up, but, yeah, it is getting better. Compared to how it was a year or 2 ago, it's it's getting there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But, anyhow,
[00:49:00] Unknown:
this guy who's who's, living in Curacao kind of is this one man, orange peeling army. I think he actually has people that that help him now, but, there's a lot of local businesses. There was a a grocery store near where I was staying that I was I went to a few times, and you can pay with lightning, in the checkout. And, just here and there all over the islands, there's little places you can learn to windsurf with Bitcoin or
[00:49:30] Unknown:
Nice.
[00:49:31] Unknown:
This and that here. Beautiful island. El Salvador is amazing place, but I think Curacao is this lesser known but gorgeous vacation spot that has some awesome Bitcoiners that I got to meet and
[00:49:47] Unknown:
and and sit down and talk to while I was there. There seems to be a few dotting around. Is the what's the free private cities one? And there's a there's a few different sort of, like, islands, dotting around that are kind of doing Bitcoin y things on there, South America.
[00:50:05] Unknown:
Yeah. There are there are, in other Caribbean islands. I I admittedly you know you know the places that that you go to or you have occasion to learn about, and I just happened to there was a connection between the individual that invited me there, in that his Twitter handle is bccuracao. And he created a Bitcoin cold storage tool that I used back in 2013 2014 Oh, okay. Called bidaddress.org. And I think the website's still there. Bidaddress.org was this way to create paper wallets before hard wallets existed or were widely popularized, where you'd, you know, take an offline system, create private keys
[00:50:51] Unknown:
Run the mouse around, like, randomly. Was it? Yep. You've seen it. Yeah. I've yeah. I've used that before a long time ago. But, yeah, another one. Yeah. So he created this, and
[00:51:02] Unknown:
at some point in the last year or 2, he kind of discovered SeedSigner. And I have always just felt a little bit of a personal connection to him because I think they're projects that are related and solving similar problems in a similar kind of spirit. So I was excited to meet him just for that reason. But, yeah, solid place.
[00:51:24] Unknown:
That's the cool I can sound quite negative, what we were talking about earlier, and just, like, being a little bit pissed off with a lot of the space. But the positive side of it is, as you just said, like, you meet certain people who are doing great things, and they're welcoming and you get to see new places. And there is definitely a lot of that going on as well. And, like you mentioned, Nathan Day and, obviously, Ben Gunn and people in the who are traveling all over the place, creating different projects, and we're all helping each other. There's always, like, an understanding that you can reach into, like, a mesh to del group and be like, I need to ship something from here to here. Can someone help me? Does anyone know a way to do this? And does that you know, people will always help each other or I need some timber. Okay. Alright. I know someone. I need a welder. I I need a software developer who can do this. And and it's, it's that ground level stuff that is exciting and, like, gives the hope as well. I just wish more people could find it. You know? Like, I think that's my concern is that I I feel like I found it easily.
I don't I don't even really remember the path. I just remember coming in, very quickly found groups of people who are very genuine. And I guess my concern is just, like, I want that to continue. I want people to be able to, like, see the real grassroots stuff because I worry otherwise. You know, if I came in now exactly as I was in 2017, 2018, will I still be here? I'm not sure.
[00:52:58] Unknown:
No. You said the, the friends you make along the way are the real yield. That is true. Actually we we have a great local meetup where I'm at here in the Midwest, and I just like, with what we were talking about before with with family life and stuff, I just don't get to go as often as I would like to because they tend to meet on evenings and weekends. And on evenings and weekends, I have sports practices and, games to go to and, you know, family stuff. So maybe in the in the next chapter after the couple of these kids get into college, maybe there'll be time for more of that. But I I realize those opportunities. I before we get too far from the subject, I do wanna say if anyone is curious about Curacao and what's going on there, there's a guy on Twitter called Joe Nakamoto, who's a Bitcoin journalist, who was also there when I was there. And he's if he hasn't already, he was going to be releasing just kind of some interviews and some of the things that he learned and discovered on on the island. So that could be an interesting way to get a a painted picture of what's going on there. If it's some for the more adventurous, if it's some place they might like to visit. It looks beautiful.
[00:54:10] Unknown:
I'm looking at the pictures as we speak. It's
[00:54:13] Unknown:
stunning. So I will tell you, my I'm planning, hopefully, on taking my family there next year. That's that's that's how, how much I was affected by the experience there. But, like, one day, probably the last full day I was there, I rented a car and drove to the beach. I don't usually rent cars when I travel, but I wanted to see more of the island, and it was just the practical way. And so I drove 45 minutes away from the I was staying in the capital near, like, the historic section of town, drove to this beach, and the beach experience was so much different than the beach experience that I've had in the United States.
Like, when we go on vacation to Florida or, you know, Carolinas or, you know, something on the Atlantic coast, when you go to the beach, it's like a public park. So you're lucky if there are some trash cans and maybe a porta potty by the parking lot kind of a thing. I went to this it's they call it a private beach, and you think private beach, like, oh, you know, it's not open to the public or whatever, but, like, you go there. I'm always forgetting things. I forgot a swimsuit. And you pay I think it was $2.50 to get out to the beach.
They have chairs everywhere. They have shade. There's bathrooms. There's changing rooms. There's showers. There's water fountain, there's a little gift shop, there's a place where you can rent snorkel equipment or scuba equipment, there's a full restaurant and a bar. Like, this was the first time I went to a beach, and I was like, I I could actually see spending the whole day here with my family because it's that you can be comfortable and it's not like you're you when we go to the beach, it's like you have to bring your own water, you have to bring your own chairs, you have to bring your own shade, you have to bring snacks if you wanna bring them. Like, this was just such a an amazing experience. And the only other thing I'll say is I've I've never tried, snorkeling before.
Not like we didn't go to the beach a lot when I was a kid, so I've I've just never tried it. And so I for $8, I mentioned I forgot a swimsuit. I bought an inexpensive pair of swim trunks, I think, for $15 at the at the little gift shop there. And rented, you know, snorkel goggles and breathing tube or whatever it's called. And went out there, and it took me about 5 or 10 minutes to learn how to do it and how to consciously breathe the way you're supposed to. But once I got underwater, it was like it was like swimming around in, like, the aquarium at my kids' dentist office. Like, the the, like, Nemo fish everywhere, brightly colored fish, and they're all kind of circling around, you know, rocks. And and there's a little bit of a reef there. I don't know a lot about marine biology, but going underwater, it was like, oh my gosh. I have to bring my kids back here to see this because I've I've never snorkeled before, and it was just I get why people are into it now. It's just absolutely mystifying to see the schools of fish and how close you can get to them. And it was, I it was just an amazing experience.
[00:57:07] Unknown:
I have to check that out. I do plan on doing a South America trip at some point in the not too distant future. It definitely is drawing me across. There's just so much interesting stuff going on there. It's beautiful. There's sunshine, and I think the draw will happen even more as we approach winter here in the UK, and it's getting cold and miserable. And I'm seeing these videos coming out of South America. I'm like,
[00:57:32] Unknown:
yeah. Maybe I'll be getting over there. Would you envision that as, like a multiple country sort of trip, or do you have any destinations in mind?
[00:57:39] Unknown:
Probably. Yeah. I'd probably just go and visit people. Mhmm. I'd probably put a plan together of like, okay. These are the places that have been suggested and try and make a a longer trip of it. I don't even really wanna stay in the UK long term. So I am, in the back of my head, always looking. Mhmm. I'm always looking like, where are the other options? But it's it's a big move with the family. And so it's kind of like it would need to tick more boxes than I've seen ticked at the moment. I don't wanna jump out of the frying pan into the fire. I know the UK has its problems.
Definitely has its problems. The main problem being the weather because it's so shit and miserable. But, like, I know it, and I'd like if everything kicks off here, I'm fine. Like, unless it gets really bad, I'm fine. Whereas, like, you go somewhere new, you go on a holiday, it seems all rosy and lovely. And like you say, oh, you see the fish, and isn't that lovely? And things seem good, but then it's like Yeah. Yeah. The reality of life kicks in. You're like, there's no, like, decent school or, like, there's you know what I mean? Like, you need there's certain things you need. So Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I've always got my my eye open and anywhere with with low taxes and more freedom is what think about El Salvador? Would you,
[00:58:54] Unknown:
is that something you'd
[00:58:56] Unknown:
I don't know that I really like or trust their top boy. The country needs a a bit more Lindy
[00:59:03] Unknown:
before before I would consider, you know, moving there or anything like that. It's just you you don't know what happens after Bukele or if yeah. Or if he takes a turn or something, it's it's yeah. Yeah. But but beautiful to visit. I I can absolutely recommend visiting there. I've I've been there twice, and I would go back. Okay.
[00:59:23] Unknown:
Okay. Did you go for conferences? Or
[00:59:26] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. The first was in 2022 for the it wasn't the first one. It was the second, adopting Bitcoin conference that they had in El Salvador. Went with Keith and another guy who was collaborating with Seed Center at the time who he's more fluent and had he'd been there before, so he had kinda like more on the ground knowledge. Great experience. I have a little bit of a challenge in that we went there in the fall. And, of course, south of the equator, that's the spring. And I have seasonal allergies that that apparently are not compatible if I'm not medicated. So both the times I've been there, I've been struggling with, like, sinus congestion and inflammation.
But the first time was that adopting Bitcoin in 22. And then the second time I went to Bitcoin Beach last fall with a group of Bitcoiners from thank God for Bitcoin. And they were they had kind of like a private event where there's, I assume this is all still underway, but they were in the process of thinking about spinning up an organization that was kinda like Bitcoin for missions. I you might call it, like like the Human Rights Foundation, but it's more focused on using Bitcoin as a tool to support Christian missionaries. And, I've been somewhat forthright about my faith, but the weird thing is I'm Catholic and everybody else there, was Protestant.
So I was a little bit of this fish out of water. I never know how to approach that sort of situation because I know that some people who are not Catholic have opinions about Catholics. And I so it's it's a but they were all very, very nice, very welcoming. I I did. It was a great experience, but that was my second El Salvador trip, which I felt was like a little bit more. The first trip felt like because of the conference, it was very curated experience. Like, on the 3rd day of the conference, they had a guided sort of field trip or whatever excursion to Bitcoin Beach, and it was on these huge tour buses.
And it's about a I think it's like a 45 or a 55 minute drive from the capital. And you're going to these huge tour buses that are being escorted by the national traffic police, you know, on their motorcycles and stuff. And it it just felt like a very on the rails sort of guided experience, whereas the second trip was more like I had a little bit more freedom to explore on my own. And, that was a great experience too. I I, you know, the the people in El Salvador and what they went through under the sort of previous situation there was just Yeah. Harrowing way to live life. And it was interesting because it feels like to me, it feels like in El Salvador in America, there's this commercial that one of the presidential candidates ran in the eighties. I think it was Reagan. And the theme of the commercial was something like it's morning in America.
And it was just this all these sort of visual things of, like, people getting up for work and people getting ready to do this and a really kind of productive environment. And that's the vibe that I got in El Salvador. It's like before when the gangs were in charge of everything, people told me that there were, like, 2 hours a day in most places where it was generally agreed upon that you could leave your house and go to the store and do your business. But other than that, unless you needed to leave to get your kids to school or go to work, like, you just did not leave your house. It was it was a very sort of captive environment, And there was this 2 hour window when everybody agreed that if we got to go out, we got to go out. We're all going to do it once. And now just the number of construction projects and just the vibe you get from people there, you know, hopefully everything is great with Bukele, and it continues in a positive direction. But, like, people there are really hopeful and really just happy, genuine, caring, giving people, at least all the people I encountered. And it was it gives them a really good vibe there. So, hopefully, they stay on that that course.
[01:03:38] Unknown:
Yeah. It seems positive. I mean, it's pretty terrifying if you live in that kind of environment.
[01:03:44] Unknown:
Totally.
[01:03:45] Unknown:
Yeah. Just worrying, oh, I wanna go out and get some milk. Well, you know, I could be killed. It's not it's not a great place to, to live or raise a family. So in many ways, like, I find in the UK, a lot of people in certain areas have had it so easy that you have this kind of champagne socialism. Mhmm. They don't know how bad things can be because they've never seen it. They're, like, too relaxed. And then if you have someone who's seen how bad things can be, and now they actually go, well, we wanna keep it good, and we wanna make it better. Mhmm. And they have a fire under their ass. Like, you'd be surprised what those types of people can do. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to see how it plays out. So in
[01:04:30] Unknown:
Bitcoin Beach where I was, right next to the house I was living into, there was a I don't know. There's a vacant lot or there used to be a building there, whatever. But because there's so much active construction, I assume that they were clearing this land so that they could come in. It's it's prime beachfront properties, so I'm sure somebody was building something there. But, like, I kid you not, it's a rocky sort of terrain there, so they have just all these naturally occurring rocks that they're clearing out to be able to, I guess, pour foundation and begin construction.
And in another part of the world, like, this is something that somebody'd be doing with 1 or more, like, backhoes or, you know, they have some sort of heavy equipment there. There's literally a dude with one arm crawling around in the foundation or the whatever the previous building that was there, taking rocks with one arm and throwing them out of, you know, the what looked like the building space into a pile so they could be moved somewhere else, I guess. Like like, there is everybody there is hustling and, like, just being product. I don't know. It was it was just Mhmm. I I I I'm probably overselling it, but it was a great vibe there. Great vibe.
[01:05:35] Unknown:
Well, that's good to hear. And I guess, you know, people will flock to these areas. If it starts working, people will flock to these areas, and the most productive people will flock there, and it'd be interesting to see what can happen. One final thing for Nope. I cut you off. No. That's alright. I was gonna say one final question I have for you before we probably close this out because if I'm honest with you, I'm fucking exhausted, and I'm probably starting to not make any sense. But, I just wanted to have your view on the privacy side of Bitcoin.
I know it's not your wheelhouse necessarily, but to me, it's really concerning. But then I'm in a little bubble of people who really, really care and take it seriously. It's interesting for me to ask other people, like, what their view on this is because mine at the moment is like, I'm quite worried. Mhmm. Do you feel that's like an overblown thing, or are you kind of feeling a similar, like, there is a real issue at the moment?
[01:06:39] Unknown:
So I disclaimer, before I say anything else is that I have always been preoccupied with Bitcoin's store of value, uninflatable asset sort of thing. I understand that people have privacy concerns, and in some ways, I share them, but it's not been my mental focus. So my commentary is probably not gonna be as
[01:07:00] Unknown:
relevant or smart or whatever. That's why I'm asking you. Is it like I know you're not in the privacy bubble, and sometimes it's interesting to sort of look outside of, like, your own bubble and and you're not in this tiny little group that's, like, obsessing over it. Yeah. So I would divide privacy into
[01:07:19] Unknown:
2 kind of different spheres. 1 is, like, long term savings privacy, and the other is day to day. I'm trying to spend SATS transactional privacy. And there's obviously a little bit of overlap between those two because sometimes you wanna spend their savings and sometimes you wanna move, you know, pocket money into long term savings. My impression of privacy with your long term savings is that it's definitely possible, but the tools are not there yet. Maybe a part of the reason that the tools aren't there yet is because there aren't enough privacy conscious consumers and builders out there to make it happen. We haven't reached that, like, critical mass where it's a problem yet. Human beings are generally kind of a reactive sort of species in some way. We're not always good at anticipating problems and being proactive. We end up, I I think it's because we're efficient, and we we don't waste energy on a problem until it proves that it's a problem sometimes.
Mhmm. And maybe privacy hasn't been a big enough problem for anyone that there's not that critical mass there. And I don't really have any other thoughts about on chain Bitcoin savings privacy. But on transactional privacy, when we talk about Noster and all the, you know, little cultish kind of behavior there, for a long time, I would always see Cali or some of the other e cash people making all these posts about cashew and nuts and e cash and all this kind of stuff. And Mhmm. I I kind of understood what it was about, but it it just seemed it I don't know. It it it wasn't my rabbit hole, and so I just kinda set it aside and was like, no, whatever.
It's custodial. It is custodial. But I think, honestly, I think custodial gets a bad rap. If you can do custodial in a privacy preserving way, we're always going to have the use case of walking around with, at this stage of the game, is 2 or $300 where if we lost that money, it's not the end of the world. Custodial solutions do provide convenience and an opportunity to onboard people in a way that is not like I I can't imagine onboarding someone with a true lightning wallet where you have to open channels and explain to them that, like, okay. The first time the first time you send money to this wallet, we're gonna have to keep 5 or $10 because you have to open a channel, and that's gonna take maybe 10 to 40 minutes.
And once you have that channel, you have all the beads on one side of the channel, and so you're gonna have to spend some or receive some to get the beads on the right side so that you can able to it's like that's we we need stuff that abstracts away all of that complication. And, when I was in Prague for the the Prague conference there, there was some workshops, I think, 2 days before the event, and I had my first interaction with an e cash wallet. It's actually a progressive web app. Anybody who's listening can go to a website called cashew.me. And when I'm trying to convince a bartender to take a tip in Bitcoin or, like, an Uber driver or in that kind of situation where you wanna onboard somebody quickly, that website that it's a progressive web app. And when you first visit that website on a mobile, it kind of, you know, reminds you, like, oh, you should save this to your home screen and blah blah blah. And, you know, if if you accumulate money in here, you should write these words down, etcetera. But I think it is up there with the quickest and easiest ways to onboard people to quickly get sats in their hands and let them start thinking about Bitcoin and experiencing what it's like to pay with Bitcoin and stuff. Now the downside of it is you have 2 balances in there. 1 of them is lightning, and the other is e cash, and that's sort of probably confusing to people who, are still learning.
But in terms of an onboarding experience, it's awfully compelling. And like I said, I don't have a problem with a custodial wallet as long as people understand you shouldn't put more than a couple $100 in there. Like, something if you go to a meetup and they have a beer tap you can buy beer with, or if you go to a conference and you're gonna be eating food, or if you're lucky enough to be in a a circular Bitcoin economy environment where you can go to a restaurant and pay with Bitcoin or you can pay your dentist with Bitcoin or whatever like that. But but anyhow, what I'm getting at is I haven't experimented a ton with Ecash.
But as I understand it, again, from somebody who's not in that world, like, there's some pretty strong privacy assurances with it. And, it is custodial, but I I think it's it can be part of a toolset that is useful and makes sense over time.
[01:11:49] Unknown:
I think that's fair. Q will, absolutely hate me saying this, but I I agree in terms of, like, small amounts is okay for custodial. Just like you say, like, you have cash in your wallet. Like, someone mugs you, you're fucked. Like, it's just well, it's just one of those things you lose it. Mhmm. I think my concern more is, like, not having the privacy tools that we had previously. It is an issue, like, ones that actually work. And then culturally is my concern. It's like, do new people come in? Are they understanding the long term play here? Because I've I've said for a long time, like, someone comes in. They say, I don't like the government having control of the money, and I don't like central banks having control of the money. And I and I want to have I wanna hold my own keys and have my own coins. And, like, that's what I want, and I don't want it being inflated away. Great.
Okay. Then they say, okay. I think this is better money. I think that this is gonna become used by more and more people. And as it grows, at some point, this is gonna threaten other currencies and and threaten power structures that currently stand. And if they believe that and they look at any history book, they might think, maybe I could be a target if this is successful. And maybe if I've gone and bought my coins on a custodial exchange, and even if I have sent them out to cold storage, even if I've done that, but I'm listening to every podcast and everyone just telling me to go on whichever exchange they're shilling. I'm not understanding that that is gonna be tracked, and it's very, very easy for them to track it. Unless I'm jumping through some fairly elaborate hoops.
Are they not expecting a knock on the door at some point? Are they not expecting that they're gonna have a problem down the line when their Bitcoin's gone to $1,000,000? They think they're a cypherpunk. They think they're gonna change the world, and they get a knock at the door. And they say, hey. We've seen this has come from this exchange. It's had one hop. Very obvious. We're gonna now tax you unrealized capital gains. If you don't give it to us, we're gonna put you in prison. They'll yield. They'll give it across because they don't wanna go to prison. And then we're in a very difficult situation. And I just think that maybe it's a cultural thing now where custodial will like to set someone up. It's just easy, like, whatever for a few quid or whatever.
But I just worry that we lose that kind of, like we stop looking forward. We stop thinking, like, where does this go and how bad things could get if currencies fail, if Bitcoin becomes the world reserve and what people say like that. It's like, do you not think that's gonna piss people off? I think that's my concern. Maybe it's overblown. Maybe it's a long way away, but I just feel like maybe we're losing a bit of that, like, fighting spirit or, like, adversarial thinking.
[01:14:55] Unknown:
I think, as with everything, like, the the the truth is gonna be somewhere in the middle. I think there's some aspects to what you're saying that are true that we are losing some of that as Bitcoin becomes more mainstream. I think that's tied up in what you and I were talking about about, you know, the mainstream podcasts and conferences and stuff. I don't have a great answer. The perspective I have is that revolutions are initiated, instigated rather by a vocal minority. And, the, I read a fair amount about the American Revolution and the revolutionary period. And it was really, you know, a small group of the population, sub 10% that was, you know, so upset with what they saw as tyrannical rule that they roused an entire geographic area to basically begin a war with, at the time, what was the dominant world power at the time. So I I I hope that as long as we do have that vocal minority who are passionate about privacy and are willing to talk about that message in a way that's compelling to other people and either build the tools themselves or find a way to finance the tools to be built or whatever needs. I I I do see a path to where privacy is more ubiquitous in big Bitcoin even if everybody that uses it isn't on the privacy train. But, it remains to be seen. I don't know. It's a fair answer.
One thing I wanted to make sure that I said when we were talking was to express some gratitude to Kyu and to Zach. When I was listening to the interview with Zach, I think somebody had prompted me, and I every time somebody says something, we'll say it ungenerous about SeedSigner. I always get, like, 2 or 3 Telegram notifications from people that I know who are like, oh, gosh. Somebody you you gotta go listen to this. Somebody just said this night. I probably gotten a similar notification that said, oh, Zach Herbert was talking about SeedSigner on Ungoverable Misfits. And I was like, oh my gosh. What what do I need to be, like, figuring out how to react to now?
And it was an immensely pleasant surprise that he had a nuanced take that I felt was fair, and that was a refreshing experience. So for that, I'm grateful. And Kyu has been I've been in touch with him since the earliest innings of SeedSire and always appreciated him as well. And I know he's not with Foundation anymore, but, Seth, I had my first probably I'd seen Seth for privacy at events in the past and stuff, but I had the first, like, 25 or 30 minutes just sit down and talk to him, back in July in Nashville. And it was thoroughly enjoyable experience. I didn't really have any preconceived notions of him, but, you know, he's a little younger than me, but we're 2 kinda middle ish age guys who like to talk about history and, yeah, have obviously similar interests in Bitcoin and stuff. And it was it was a great experience getting to talk to him on a little bit more. He's a great guy. I really have a lot of time for surf. But speaking of those in person conversations, are you is it in the plans for you to go to Amsterdam next month?
[01:18:14] Unknown:
It is not. No.
[01:18:17] Unknown:
I actually went last year. I know. And I was there too, and somehow we did not, connect.
[01:18:23] Unknown:
Yeah. I can't divulge exactly what my problems were in life, but it just so happened that I had some major problems, like, really major problems happening just as I left. And then when I got there and I turned up at the conference, I got a phone call, which was an even more major problem. So my head was absolutely I was nowhere. It was it was horrendous. I did, you know, a couple of drinks with q. I've spent the rest of the time on the phone trying to solve problems back at home. Mhmm. Didn't really get to see the conference very much. Metacy, mister Crown, who, I've I've been working with for years years years, does our website and loads of the art, and, like, he's a good friend. I barely got to see him. And I was thinking, oh, I'd love to go back. But then I realized, I don't really wanna go back because the actual conference part wasn't my cup of tea.
It was only the little interactions, the little bit of time that I had was just chatting to people in the odd bar and, like, couple of interactions outside of the conference. But I have to say, like, my little bit of time in the conference when I went to go and annoy queue just for, like, 10 minutes, it just wasn't I don't wanna shit on Bitcoin Magazine too much, but it just wasn't my scene. I don't think I'll go to any of their conferences again. Maybe I'll just go and lurk in one of the bars, like, when one's going on or something. I don't know. Yeah. No. I
[01:19:49] Unknown:
like I said, my, the real valuable interactions for me are always with just everyday Bitcoiners who are there to see the sites and,
[01:19:59] Unknown:
meet like minded people. You're there this time.
[01:20:02] Unknown:
Yeah. And, you know, I have to give Bitcoin Magazine props because as as difficult as some of the other events and media actors have been to deal with, they have always been invariably good to our project. Oh, that's good. And I get that people get frustrated about the shit coining that creeps in or, you know, they'll be talking about ordinals or that kind of stuff. And I'm in line that that is frustrating, but I know, you know, at least half a dozen really solid Bitcoiners who work for that organization. Mhmm. And they've just always been very generous, both Keith and I, in terms of giving us a platform to share Seed Center with others. They've, That's good. They've been really great about that. So I I get it, but I'm a fan of theirs, I guess. I'm obviously biased.
[01:20:53] Unknown:
Yeah. No. Well, it's good. I mean, it's it's good to hear they're giving you a platform. Yep. Maybe next year. Maybe we'll see. I will probably won't go to the conference, but maybe we'll get a chance to have a drink. Or when I'm in America at some point, I keep threatening to do that as well. Max invades America. At some point, that will happen. Massive appreciation again for for you and the team and what you're doing. And it's been good just to have a catch up and a chat with you, mate. Always enjoy just having a conversation with you. And we haven't covered too much of the seats on a project or really barely anything at all. So I would say to people who are listening to this, who maybe haven't listened to our previous conversations, probably go back and listen to that last one where we had the whole team on. I'll put the episode number in the show notes or Jordan will because I'll forget to do it. Jordan will definitely do that. Yeah. Yeah. Go and have a listen and check out the project, and we'll keep trying to get the word out and having these conversations and doing what we can because it's important.
[01:21:51] Unknown:
We appreciate you. I appreciate that. And, Yeah. I'm looking forward to our paths crossing IRL at some point. A 100%.
[01:22:00] Unknown:
Alright then, mate. Well, I'm gonna go and get some sleep. It's been good to chat. Just stay on the line for a minute to make sure we save this. But, yeah, enjoy the conference, and we'll catch up soon. Thanks for listening, and thanks again to everyone who's been supporting the show, whether that's sending in sats by podcasting 2.0, tipping us with Monero, sharing with friends and family, buying art, clothing, or anything else that people are doing to support us. It really is appreciated, and it's kept us going. If you haven't already checked out the beautiful website that mister Crown works so hard on, go to Ungovernable Misfits dot com. You can check out articles, clothing, artwork, the podcast, and much more.
Catch you on the next one, and stay Ungovernable.
Bitcoin is close to becoming worthless.
[00:00:11] Unknown:
Bitcoin. Now what's the Bitcoin? Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah. Oh. The greatest scam in history. Let's get it.
[00:00:27] Unknown:
Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. Welcome back to another confab episode on Ungovernable Misfits. This episode was with SeedSigner. We hadn't caught up for about a year, and it was a good chance to get into some of the topics I had on my mind and just to catch up with him. I always enjoy a catch up with SeedSigner. And if you haven't already checked out their incredible project, I would do that now. Jordan will link in the show notes some of the other episodes that I've done with them. Incredible project, great guy, And I think you're gonna really enjoy this. Before we start, I wanna say thank you to everyone who's been boosting the last confab episode with Kerim.
I have too much to say about this confab, so I'll basically say nothing. He has a habit of that. He says a lot without saying a lot, but thank you for the sats, John. Late stage Huddle, evil exists in the hearts of men and Hillary Clinton. Chet. Yep. Yep. Yep. Good one. Deep shit, and I love it. L m f a o. Buy a fucking second mic. Cunt. So sweet as usual. Thank you, Chet. Yeah. I will do. I'm I'm gonna be buying another one. Late stage Huddl again. I boosted something here, and it's gone now. It shows up in history, but not the text. If the boost, anyway, that Hillary Clinton, quote, made me laugh and my issues with fountain continue.
Okay, mate. Well, I have now booked a call. We're gonna be doing a confab very, very soon with Oscar. And, I'll ask him about some of these things, and hopefully, we can get it rectified. Fundamentals. Kerim was an incredible guest. I used to watch a lot of YouTube videos on people in k holes. It's incredible to have someone come here and explain what the fuck is actually happening there. God bless the confab. Chad Farrow, loving the episode so far, Max. Also, fuck war. Agreed, mate. Unless it's on your doorstep. Winthrop, your description of people as little whirlwinds of particles that are shared and exchanged when we interact is spot on.
Call it data, energy, quantum particles, whatever. It's very legit. It sounds like you integrated that experience nicely too, which is rare. It's easy to look back on it as just the drugs rather than letting it inform your worldview. What's cool is you don't have to be in physical proximity to the person so you can publish a podcast. You and your listeners are also treated to a bit of this exchange of energy. It's quite cool to experience this and be aware of it happening in the moment. Yeah. Maybe we're all exchanging energy. That's what this is all about.
I'm not gonna read the rest of the boost. I think that's a nice place to cut it. Nice message. And I appreciate everyone who's been sending these boosts in. I do read them all. I appreciate them all. I just don't read them all at the beginning of a show because otherwise, we won't get into it. Before we do get into it, I just wanna also say a huge thank you to Foundation. Foundation have been supporting this show for many years now and been building the best hardware in the space. I'm very proud to be working with them. They make cypherpunk tools for fuck quits. Even I know how to use these. I can keep myself safe and secure.
And if you're thinking about upgrading your setup or you're using some shitty hardware or you don't have any at all and you have questions, you can reach out and ask me, and I'll go through it with you. If you haven't already seen these beautiful devices, I suggest you go to foundation dot x, yzed and use the code Ungovernable. That will get you a discount. These are absolutely incredible. I use them all the time, and they'd be perfect for either single sig or to integrate into your multisig setup. Maybe you can even throw in a seed signer. They have seed signer functionality as well, so these things work great together.
As I said, you have any questions, you can reach out. If they're very technical, I'll pass you on to queue, but I recommend these to all my friends and family. Enjoy the show. How about now?
[00:05:11] Unknown:
You sound, I'm not an audio file, so I don't have any good adjectives.
[00:05:16] Unknown:
Silky smooth?
[00:05:18] Unknown:
Yeah. That is the hi fi.
[00:05:22] Unknown:
Good. I don't know what was going on there. All the settings are the same. I just thought I'll send it through again.
[00:05:27] Unknown:
Yeah. I can only hope my sound is good. I'm using my, my LARP microphone that I only get out every once in a while. What one are you using? Well, once upon a time before Seed Center was a thing, after I'd stepped away from the job and I was stay at home dad, I knew I wanted to do something, and I thought that podcasting might be that something. So if you're gonna try to be a podcaster, what's the thing you have to do is buy some obnoxious, like, large, large microphone with a pop filter and everything.
[00:05:57] Unknown:
Mhmm. And, yeah, I did just that. Now I never use it. Yeah. I did the same when I first started. I, I asked a mate who was into, like, all audio stuff, and I ended up with, like, all these different bits of equipment and mixers and different mics and all this stuff. And I didn't know how to use it, and everything sounded terrible for ages. And then I bought a 100 quid mic, one of these, Yeti blue things, and it's just a USB mic. And it's not the best mic in the world, but it does the job, and there's no faff with it. So that's what I stick to. Yeah. Keep it simple. Exactly. Well, mate, it's been, it's been a very long time.
If it was almost anybody else today, I'd have canceled because I've been going for, like, 30 hours now with kids screaming in my ears for the last 6 hours today. So, so I was like, fuck, you know. But I've been looking forward to having you back on and, just having a chat, really. State of Bitcoin, what's going on with you, what's going on with seed signer, and everything else. So I've made myself a Lemsip, and, yeah, looking forward to catching up with you. Well, I appreciate that. I'm,
[00:07:13] Unknown:
I'm in the midst. I think I'm a little bit further along in the journey with the kids than you. But, yeah, my my daughter is a softball player, and, she has a game this afternoon. And, I their the season that they they go into is just like it's over as soon as it starts. They have, I think, 5 games this week, and, it's like a 5 week season, and then they're in the playoffs. And I don't anyhow, don't mean to digress, but I do appreciate the
[00:07:45] Unknown:
What's softball? Is softball like baseball, basically?
[00:07:50] Unknown:
No? Yeah. That's that's a loaded question.
[00:07:55] Unknown:
So I'm up for it. You have to excuse this.
[00:07:58] Unknown:
It is, you would if you were to see a softball game, in some ways, you would have a tough time distinguishing it from a baseball game. It is primarily a game that's played by women or females, I should say. But in the seventies eighties, softball is actually a much more popular game. There were more competitive leagues. It's like baseball, except the ball is larger, and so it doesn't travel, I don't think, as far. It's a little bit I don't know. If you don't play tennis, you play pickleball kind of a thing. But I don't wanna disparage it at all. Like, the girls that she plays with, and it's a relatively popular collegiate sport. And a lot of the girls that play it are really first class athletes that have honed the skills that are associated with the game. So,
[00:08:48] Unknown:
it's just a variation on baseball. It's so it's not like because here, we've got this thing called rounders that generally the girls will play rounders, which is like it literally is baseball, but just like with a shorter bat. It's like almost like a like a old school, like, police truncheon size bat.
[00:09:07] Unknown:
Right. It's everything else. It's just baseball. It's exactly the same. See, I didn't even I wouldn't think that you had baseball or any baseball like games there, but I I would've been totally wrong.
[00:09:18] Unknown:
We're sort of you do, like, pretty much everyone in the UK plays at most schools. Like, it's pretty much football. Mhmm. Right. Right. At private schools, it's rugby, cricket, and football. And then they'll throw in, like, a few other things. Like, a lot of the private schools, you can, like, you can play basketball, but you gotta do, like, an after school club because it's not really, like, a sport that they generally play. Or, like, you can do baseball, but it'd be, like, something that you'd yeah. Again, you'd, like, do outside of school. But, generally, here is, like,
[00:09:52] Unknown:
rugby and football and cricket is pretty much the big ones. Yeah. Yeah. Is, lacrosse is getting to be a bigger deal here in the States. Do you guys have that at all?
[00:10:01] Unknown:
Only for girls. Oh, really? So not not field hockey, but, like, lacrosse with the net Yeah. Lacrosse. Like, again, it would only be private schools who play it. The girls would play lacrosse. It was quite a big thing. Lacrosse,
[00:10:16] Unknown:
rounders, tennis, things like that. And then, yeah, rugby for the guys. I guess the only other thing I can say about softball is here in the states, it's kind of like a a sport that is declining in popularity. Mhmm. It was probably much bigger when, you know, I was a kid 20 or 30 years ago, but it's still a bigger deal in rural America as opposed to the more urban areas. So when you get into teams that, you know, are from the country here, yeah, they've they're generally more competitive, and they take it more seriously. So Mhmm. It's an interesting dynamic.
[00:10:48] Unknown:
My read on Americans, because I speak to you guys quite a lot now, is the the people in the south seem to be a lot more like what people are like in the countryside here. So, like, city people generally in the UK, especially, like, more Londony types, are generally, like, quite rude and abrasive and annoying. And then the further you get out either up north or into the countryside, people are more friendly and slow. I don't mean slow in a negative way. I mean, like, slow as in they just operate and talk and have time to converse with people, and they're not always, like, rushing, and they seem to have better manners.
There's a lot more kind of like I don't know whether it's because it's smaller communities when you're in the countryside that if you act like a complete dickhead, then no one's gonna wanna speak to you again. Whereas in London, it doesn't matter because there's so many people.
[00:11:40] Unknown:
Yeah. It's I I I think there's definitely some truth that I it's like an urban versus rural sort of thing. Like in a Mhmm. In a rural area, I think there's still those vestiges of community being a collaborative thing to where, you know, people helped each other get the harvest dinner or somebody's barn fell down. They I don't know anything about stuff in the country, but I get the sense there's a much more collaborative like, these people really do have a connection to a time, and it's probably still to some degree that they actually rely on each other for help. It's a natural incentive to be to play nice, as it were. But, yeah, I with what you're saying about Londoners, I I think of that as like a New Yorker kind of vibe who Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's parallels there. About New Yorkers, but it's just a it's a different way of communicating that's more abrasive and more direct, I guess. I hate London. I fucking hate it. I always feel, like, rushed and just, like, busy and crammed and Fiat. Not for me. So I'll ask.
Mhmm. Because I I've I've randomly pulling people I know who are from the United Kingdom. On the outside with the videos and riots and knife crime and stuff like that, like, is is does that connected with reality at all, or is or is it just the worst things that are happening? Or that's what I'm seeing on social media and it's it's overblown. There you see all these tweets that, like, London has fallen.
[00:13:06] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John asked me this quite a lot and and mister Crown and some of the other guys in the Ungovernable Misfits asked me quite a lot because they see the same thing. My answer's like, it hasn't really I can only judge something through my own eyes and what I see because I don't trust what the media shows. To me, I haven't really seen any change, any, like, dramatic change. Mhmm. That said, where I live, knife crime is not exactly a shock. Like, if I hear that someone's been knifed within a very close radius of me, I wouldn't be like, oh my god. Like, it wouldn't be a shocking thing. I'd be like, that's a shame.
[00:13:46] Unknown:
What what is the motivation? Is it primarily robbery, or is it, like, racially motivated, or is it I don't know what what else it could be. I don't think
[00:13:55] Unknown:
well, where I am, there's not there's racism everywhere, but pretty much everyone just, like, gets along. But there's a lot of there's a lot of crackheads and, like, junkies, and there's a lot of desperate people, and there's a lot of gangs. So, I think it probably comes down to that. And there's also just like it seems to be, like, quite a disenfranchised violent youth, and I don't know how much of that is, like, culture through music or film or other things that may be for example, you have, like you go about, like, 10 years. Yep. You'd have certain gangs who would act or dress or move a certain way, and you kind of knew and there were certain areas where you'd kind of avoid. You kind of generally know the ones that might be carrying a gun or a knife or something like that. Like now, all the kids, nice kids and stuff, they dress as if they are that.
You do what I mean? Like No. I know exactly what you mean. Like, if you said boost them, they'd probably shit themselves, but they, like, try to portray this kind of, like, this kind of look. But then what happens is it I I think, anyway, like, it escalates is that then some of those people in those groups do actually start carrying knives, and a few of them are actually involved in gangs or, like, they come from a from an area or, like, a background where they are really struggling, and they've they've had just not really, like, a great time in life. Mhmm. And I think a lot of these kids just don't really, like, see what they have to lose. It's just like a race to the bottom of, like, who wins is, like, who has the least to lose because they'll just do anything. And, like, it's you know, around here, within within my dog walk, there has been kids under the age of 13 who have stabbed each other to death. Oh, that's horrible. Many of them. Like, it's it's, like, everywhere.
It's just I I just think it's, yeah, it's like a bit of front, and then they don't really have anything to lose. They think, well, fuck it. What's the what, you know, what's the best I'm gonna see? And then the only people they have to look up to, the only people who are doing well in their areas or in their lives are the people who would, like, dealing drugs or whatever. They kind of look up to those people. So I guess it's probably kind of the same everywhere, but it's just like it's more knives here. And it wouldn't be uncommon, like, if you had a you have just like a a car pullout on another car, mini little bit of road rage, someone beeps.
You know? Like, for me, I just wouldn't care. Be like, they've made a mistake. Whatever. I'm not gonna get angry about that. But someone will jump out with a knife and run across to a car. Like it's, you know, like, they'll stab someone to death because they've beat them. Oh, gosh.
[00:16:41] Unknown:
At least with that, like, you know, road rage here in America, if it involves a gun, like, you are potentially just trapped in your car being shot at, at least with a knife. You know, if your windows are closed, hopefully, you can drive away. Yeah. This is true. But so so 2 things come to mind. One one is definitely, I think media plays a role for sure. Mhmm. And that manifests itself in a variety of ways. Like in America, hip hop culture has become ubiquitous, I think, whether you're in a small town or the suburbs or urban areas or whatever. But then even in an entirely different manifestation, you see middle aged dudes in their forties who, on the weekends, they wanna buy a $30,000 motorcycle and dress up like they're in a motorcycle gang and Mhmm. You know, go bar hopping or something. Like like, there's this I I don't know if it's like people are just bored with their everyday lives, you know, their job or whatever, and they they have this sort of I don't wanna call that death wish, but some sort of yearning for something more dangerous or something more exciting.
[00:17:47] Unknown:
Escapism.
[00:17:49] Unknown:
Some type of But then so, the much lambasted interview that Tucker Carlson did with Vladimir Putin, one of the things that Putin brought up that I think is actually compelling is the media mainstream movies, mainstream music, the stories that a culture tells itself are telling about that culture in the direction that it's headed. And I I don't know what Russian media is like. He's obviously Putin's somebody who's talking his own book and is trying to portray his own country in the best light. But I look at the films that are popular in America, and it's it's it's hard to find films that you would be comfortable watching with your kids these days, you know, unless it's specifically like a like a Disney Pixar or one of the other studios that makes those. It's it's everything is just geared towards violence and sex and foul language and blah blah blah.
[00:18:41] Unknown:
Yeah. I think, it certainly doesn't help, does it? Like, especially when you're impressionable, like, as a kid, there should never be a ban on creativity in any way, but it's like, I think it just comes down to, like, you know, if you're a good parent and you have a kid, they suddenly start looking like, okay. They're doing something here that is, like, crossing the line where they're starting to become, like, is too far what they're doing. You might just reign them in a little bit. But I think what happens is, like, a lot of these kids, their parents are junkies or alcoholics. They don't work. They don't do fuck all. They don't care about their kids. And they then go and meet groups of people who say, oh, you can make a bit of money here. You're not gonna go to prison anyway. You're too young. Like, if you get arrested, like, fuck what's gonna happen to you. Don't worry about it. You want that pair of trainers? Well, we can sort that out for you. And it's just everywhere. You can see that, like, you know, if you've got, like, a strong role model in your life, you'd go, well, hold on a minute. I don't wanna be like this guy. I wanna be like my dad. I wanna be like this person I look up to who's, like, has a respectable job and, like, everyone likes them and they're kind to people and but they're a strong person and, like, you you have someone to look up to who's, like, a good figure in your life. But if the best thing that you've seen in your life is, like, someone who flashes a bit of cash and, like, people are scared of them, And that's better than, like, your junky parents who are just, like, complete wasters and don't care about you. You can understand why there's that draw.
Yeah. In short, like, I don't think it's worse. I just think it's the same, but I think it's just like there's a ratcheting of hate in the media. All this stuff about racist hate and this and that. Yeah. There are there are, like, things that go on, like, anywhere else, but, like, I live in a very, very, very multicultural place. I've never had any issues. Like, no one's ever there's never been an issue. It's just not a thing. You go to the gym. There's someone from every race. Everyone gets on. Everyone's fine. There's no difference. You walk down any street. There's no difference. Everyone gets on. Or they don't, but it's not a racial thing. You know what I mean? It's just like you have a problem with someone, whatever. I think it's like, well, if we ratchet this up, we can cause some more fear, which seems to always be what media are are wanting all the time. Yeah. And then you have, like, angry impressionable people who maybe aren't smart enough to, like, join the dots. And there's a lot of people whose life were destroyed after COVID and just generally just like the state of living in the UK is is really hard. Like, wages are very low in comparison to what things cost. The lift to work ratio is really bad. And so people are just, like, angry, and then they turn on the news, and it's like, we know you're angry because of everything that we've done, but let me just tell you.
Your mate, Fred, is the one you should be angry at because of his skin color. Or because he's a racist or because he's whatever. You know? Exactly. Yeah. What do you think
[00:21:39] Unknown:
about dual income households versus single income households? I have become like a because I I've I've had both experiences. And if you can figure if you're a young person out there and, you know, you're just starting out with a family or you're planning a family, if you can work it out to where only one parent has to work, even if that means sacrificing the kind of car you drive or the kind of house you live in, I think it's absolutely worth considering because you just there are some things that you just can't put a price on and you won't get access to those things. It's not any sort of knock on people who choose in a family where both parents choose to work, but I've been there. And even if you like your job, at the end of the day, like, we all need some me time at some point, and there's just there's just no wiggle room at different times with kids that have, These days, kids just don't have school and homework. They have activities that they're involved in. You gotta run them to all that stuff, and it's just you get a much more low time preference opportunity to interact with your kids, even even for the person who's working because they can, you know, they're not trying to catch up on Saturdays with all the things they've fallen behind in the house
[00:22:52] Unknown:
and all that kind of stuff. It's Oh, yeah. I I agree with you. Like, that would certainly be our goal. I don't know if you know this. I've I've gone full time with the podcast. So I did hear that in your episode with, Zach. I think I heard that in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I would have spoken to him about it. So part of that was it's not only like I wanna do this for obviously, I wanna do this full time, but it was also like I wanna have time with my family. We're nowhere near a stage where, like, I'm earning enough money for us to be comfortable and only one of us working. But we're doing it just because I had some savings. They've been sold and, like, we've given ourselves a little bit of runway to try and make it work because the simple fact is it doesn't work the other way. Like, it it's doable, but it's not living.
The way that we were living before was, like, my missus and me were ships passing in the night. Right. All I did was work Monday to Sunday all the time. And when I wasn't working because I was having to grab one of the kids while she, you know, went to the toilet even or something like that, I'd be, like, extremely stressed because I'm like, I've got so much stuff I've gotta fucking do. Yep. That made you feel guilty because you're like, oh, I should be spending time with the kids and I want to. Or you snapped at them and and you just like, that's the horrible feeling. Exactly. And so, you know, in that situation, you're always tired. You're never providing enough anyway. Well, I've never been in that situation where I can provide enough anyway. And you're not giving the love and attention you need, and you're fucking exhausted. So when that's when you are spending time, it's not even really quality time, and you're feeling anxious and stressed because you can't earn the money. So it's like it's just a lose lose lose situation.
And I think anyone who's trying to juggle both having jobs and, oh, well, you can you pick them up after you finished your shift and do do it's it's mayhem, and and mine are young. So I can't even imagine how much harder it gets when they've got all these extra clubs and friends. Mine don't do that stuff yet. They love, like, breaking my stuff and, like, eating toilet roll and spitting it on the floor. Like, that's that's as much as, like, they love at the moment. They're so like, they're relatively simple to manage. They're annoying and they're tiring, but they're relatively simple to manage. I can't imagine what it like, you know, when they get older.
[00:25:13] Unknown:
So, I I actually as I think about this, I think we've been down very similar roads. So in 2017, and I I probably told you a story already, and I won't belabor it. But in 2017, I sold all of my Bitcoin, and that paved the way for me to step away from my career and be a stay at home dad. And, there there was a lot of pain associated with that. I think you've alluded to that too. Sure. Yeah. But it's a conscious decision and Bitcoin is a tool. But I I have to tell you, like, I my net worth would be wildly higher, obviously, right now if if I hadn't done that. But the I have no regrets. There's like, I got to be with my children at a time in their lives that I'll never get to experience again, especially during the whole COVID insanity.
It was that much more steadying to have a parent at home, you know, when the kids are trying to do school from home and all this kind of stuff. It it was it it I I wouldn't trade it for anything. So I hope if that's reassuring to you in any way, you I think you've you've made a sensible and probably ultimately a good decision. It is reassuring
[00:26:20] Unknown:
because it is scary at times. It's more exciting than scary, and it's now just me adjusting my expectations of how much I can get done in the day. Right. Just accepting that, like, things are different with kids and trying not to be too much of an artist about it and getting too, like, hung up on little things And also just, like, working fucking hard in the time that I have to make this all work because otherwise, it's, you know, you run out of choices. You run out of options, and it's back to the fiat mine. So I know how that is. So it's quite a good incentive to
[00:26:57] Unknown:
to do everything that you can to make it work, basically. The hardest thing is, like, when you have things that you wanna do, whether it's a fiat job or me working on seats, are you working on the podcast and everything that is involved in that? Obviously, there are times when we have to have focus and be able to work on the things we have to work on. But I find myself sometimes slipping into this frame of mind where my kids are in the way, and that's probably I I try to catch myself as quickly as I can with that because that's when I noticed that my temper really gets short. And it's all about your paradigm and how you're framing the things that are really important in what you're working on. And, yeah, it's an adventure.
[00:27:40] Unknown:
That's a good point. Well, mine is now I just work from the gym. So I get up. I cycle to the gym. I work from there. And then when I come back, I accept that nothing productive is done. Like, it's just Yeah. It's family time. Like, there there's no chance, it's family time. Like, there there's no chance. It's why, like, we're recording now. It's, like, it's 10 o'clock at night here because they're asleep, and so I have some peace. But unless they're asleep, there's just there's nothing productive can be done.
And that's okay. Talking of productive with the project and working on that, I've seen some frustration recently. Sachs felt it. I felt it. You've expressed it. What can we do to get you guys more seen and get a bit more of a platform? Because it's infuriating to see the lack of coverage. And I really thought, like, last time we had all 3 of you guys, we had Keith
[00:28:35] Unknown:
and Nick and you come on, and we really went deep on the project. And I was kind of like by the way. That was that was absolutely amazing. I I'm extremely proud of that episode, and that's like, I'll probably listen to that episode in 10 years and, like, be just regardless of where SeedSetter is, I I that will make me exceedingly happy.
[00:28:55] Unknown:
It was great. You all seem to have such a nice way. Like, you're very respectful of each other. You're very clear about who does what and who's good at what, and you lean on each other in that way, which is really cool to see. What I sort of took away from that is I was like, this is a fucking amazing project and team, and you don't get the coverage that I think you should. I don't think that it's ever gonna be through the PodConf approved groups. How does this get some more funding, get some more eyes on it? I'm wondering whether there's, like, a a different route, basically. And I haven't come up with it yet, but, I'm wondering if you've sort of been thinking about ways to get more eyes on it because it's a pretty solid rounded thing now, like, compared to when we first had the conversation.
Right. And now we're in a very different situation.
[00:29:51] Unknown:
Right. It's, I haven't figured out either, and I think there are some unique dynamics at play internally with our project that maybe it never becomes this this I I always kinda operated by this paradigm that seed signer was gonna have this moment where it would suddenly, like, click, like in the in the zeitgeist or in, you know, larger public perception. And there have been several moments I've thought where they've been big steps forward. But I think because it is an organic grassroots thing, you know, as I frequently joke, we don't have a marketing department. It really is shared just 1 Bitcoiner to another or 1 Bitcoiner who puts one together and thinks, wow, this is pretty cool and wants to share it with his local meetup or just a few Bitcoiners that he connects with, he or she. I think maybe maybe that's just the right way, and that's how we get there. And I have to take a low time preference sort of thing. When I first started this, sometimes you see things and you intuitively understand them, and then you have to, over time, back into the reasons why something's a good idea or why something makes sense.
When I first had the idea for Seed Center and saw where it could be, not where it started out, but where it could be such like it is now, like it's it's a reasonably polished tool that if you put it into someone hands someone's hands, they're not thinking, oh my gosh. This is this clumsy, junky DIY thing that I wouldn't trust with anything. It it stands on par with something that you would pay to use as a Bitcoin savings tool. When I looked forward and saw what it potentially could be, I had this naive expectation that the Bitcoin ecosystem, as I perceived it, would somehow welcome SeedSiner with open arms, and it would be this thing that could be celebrated, if that doesn't sound too arrogant, in that we're really doing this for the right reasons. We're trying to keep the right variables in play. I've very intentionally tried to steer this as a a volunteer, you know, fully open source software thing, have turned away angel money early on, made it a point to open source, you know, everything that was involved with the project.
I think part of the the rub was I think we experienced a little too much success a little too early in terms of the exposure that the project got, and I think that set my expectations at a level that wasn't realistic. Because as it grew, not all of the hardware manufacturers, but some of the hardware manufacturers, I wouldn't say they're worried that Seed Center is gonna take over all their market share, but it's not something that they're gonna advocate for and they might even take swipes at it when given the opportunity. So welcomed with open arms thing was naive. I didn't have any sense of the marketing cycle within Bitcoin and where the money flows from from people who sell devices into events and podcasts and personalities with shield codes and all this kind of stuff, the incentives that that kind of environment creates kinda tends to choke out some things. I mean, we have Rudolfo Novak routinely shits on seed center. He'll call it Raspberry Pi, and he he very rarely actually says seed center. He just refers to Raspberry Pi. But even aside from that kind of overt stuff, it's sometimes difficult to get onto the main stage at conferences.
There there are just these subtle it's difficult to get on, you know, some podcasts that have certain sponsors, and it's a little bit that's why I say it's maybe it's just gonna happen 1 Bitcoiner at a time. I I don't wanna whine about it. Like, we're continuing to build this because we're passionate. And, like, every time I sit down to work with my cold storage, I absolutely love doing it with a seed signer. It's kind of like other things that I've built. You build it because you're so excited to have one and then, you know, if other people can have one too, that's great. But I think that's that's the real reason why Keith and Nick and Jean and our other contributors do it because they have goodness in their heart and something they just wanna hold in their hands and have to use.
[00:33:50] Unknown:
The thing that frustrates me is not that there are other companies who have a vested interest in in not talking about your products. Like, that is something that I expect. But what frustrates me is, like, that it's not discussed more widely on more platforms because it's not for everyone. But you don't know who's listening to this and who could desperately need to build one of these things. Most of these people are probably gonna tune into what podcasts have got the biggest numbers. They might click on one of those. They don't need to listen to the 500th episode with Michael Saylor explaining thermodynamics.
There might actually be a person who wants to actually use Bitcoin. And then they don't know that they can build this thing with off the shelf parts, which would be perfect for them, and they might never find it because maybe they're not on Twitter or, you know, Nosta or, you know, maybe they're not really deep into this thing. And then they don't know that it exists. If someone just says, this might not be the storage that I use, but it's really, really useful, and it could be really good in a multisig, and everyone should consider it for those sort of things, that would be honest reporting.
Honestly, I don't use a seed signer. I use a foundation passport. I'm happy with it. It's good. I'm, like, not that techie. I don't like tinkering with stuff. I don't live in too much of an oppressive regime where, like, I'm worried about something coming through the post. You know, I don't have a sense of my address, but you know what I mean? And it's like, I'll say that. I'm not gonna, like, say I use things that I don't, but it's really important that people know that it's there, and that's what frustrates me. I think the the multisig thing that you touch on is is gonna become increasingly important over time. I yeah.
[00:35:41] Unknown:
We are recording this this week. I don't know how long it'll be before this airs, but this is the week when all the the Hezbollah pager explosion, episode is in the news, which is which is mind blowing. Just the the scale, and that's a whole separate subject, but it's a pretty stark example of how supply and distribution chains can be weaponized, to, in this case, attack people, but also potentially with Bitcoin to steal people. And, really, the only practical solution we have right now is multisig. And it's my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary. My personal opinion, if you are truly using Bitcoin as your primary savings tool and that is what you put most of your excess income in and you're planning to save that, you know, over a period of years, I think I I would struggle to think of anyone who shouldn't be in a multisig.
And the best way to do multisig is with multiple devices that are different hardware profiles, different software, libraries, and Seed Center fits into that as something that's a little bit different with different trade offs than the standard, manufactured device model. And I I I I think maybe that's our sweet spot. There there are a lot of other uses for a seed signer, but that's it's a great use case for 1. But, yeah, I I don't know. Where are you at on multisig? Is that something you think that most people can get to? Or
[00:37:11] Unknown:
I I talked to Q about this the other day, actually. My main concern with multisig is still privacy that you stick out like a sore thumb at the moment. That still is an issue, but I know that things will change over time. Right. It's certainly something that I think is especially for someone who has a lot of wealth in Bitcoin. Yeah, it makes sense. And it certainly makes sense to have different devices from different manufacturers or or build your own and and, like you know, so that you don't have so much risk there with supply chain attacks or some sort of fault or bug or something. You know, you you're you're spreading your risk a little bit. Right. It's not something for me right now because of the privacy trade offs, but when we get to a stage where that isn't a concern, I don't think it's difficult now. It's not like I'm not looking at it and going, oh, I don't wanna do that because it's gonna be so difficult.
It's just privacy concerns. Sure. That's fair. But we're not far off, I don't think. I mean, I don't know how long. Maybe you have some more insight into it, but it doesn't seem like it's a 1000000 miles away.
[00:38:23] Unknown:
No. I I am not gonna opine about that because I'm admittedly the least technical person in our core group of contributors. I think, Taproot improves that a ton if I understand it correctly, but, I don't have I'm not gonna claim to have the definitive final word on that. What you were saying about the podcasting space kind of resonates with me in terms of I so I I am fortunate in that, you know, I travel a few times a year and I get to speak with Bitcoiners who are in different parts of the country and different parts of the world, And I have been sensing this kind of growing weariness with maybe maybe the I I haven't totally figured out the pod comp thing yet. Like, how much of that is tongue in cheek?
It's it's a very it's a very unique brand of humor, and sometimes it seems like a little too funny, I guess. I don't know. But anyhow, just like like with with, what's his name? The the the guy who now owns a football club, Real Bedford or whatever. McCot Yeah. McCourt. Like, with him winding down his podcast saying that he just felt like he was getting bored in the Bitcoin space. And so I like, when you have Lynn Alden on 6 times a year and you're in your 8th time you've had this person on and and usually every time he has a guest on, like, the first minute or 2, they discuss how many times that person has been on the show. In that kind of environment, I could kind of see it getting boring and repetitive to do that podcast.
And that's what, honestly, a lot of the larger podcasts end up being. And it's it ends up being very focused on, you know, macro and and number go up and how rich we're all gonna be. And I I personally am just getting weary with all that crap. It's just,
[00:40:24] Unknown:
I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Me too. Me too. It's it's really dull. But it's what brings in the numbers, which is what brings in the sponsors, which brings in the money, and they can stack their sats and, you know, it's it's it's all that stuff. But it is boring. And I know you've had your differences with them with the samurai and but I I've had a real feeling since everything went down with them. I felt a real turn and a real change again, like a real ratchet up of the compliance, forgetting what we're here for kind of thing and almost like an apathetic kind of, well, at least we'll be rich. That's kind of like the feeling that I like, you know, at least at least we'll be rich. Right. We might not be free, which is like what we said we were here for, but maybe we didn't really believe all that in the first place. Like, maybe we'll be comfy enough in our Bentley. It'll be fine.
That's why I do what I do with John, and I do what I do with q. I'm kind of never really touching on the macro stuff because everyone's always wrong on that as well. It's like, you know, I followed that for, I don't know, 7 years or something and, like, all these predictions and, you know, this stuff. Realize they have a new prediction
[00:41:42] Unknown:
every other month and Yeah. Like, it it just, like I I was I was in the exact same place, and I'm following, like, Lin Alden and Luke Gromen and Mhmm. Who knows all the other people. And it's just like, it's it's just, they exist to attract eyeballs. I don't know Mhmm. I don't know what the what the business model is behind any of it. I it's something about selling books and being on podcasts and conference appearances, and I'm sure there's ad revenue from Twitter and blah. Who knows? I don't know. But, yeah, I I'm I'm over all of that stuff. There are still people in the space
[00:42:19] Unknown:
who do care about freedom and they do care about privacy and they do care about moving forward. Amen. You know, you kind of have to focus on the positive aspects because otherwise, you do just go, oh, fuck this. What's the point in doing this anymore if these are the people who are gonna be I'm gonna be associating with? Because I remember coming in I mean, I wasn't an early person. I wasn't, like, early like you or a lot of the other people in the space, but, like, coming in in 2017 and getting to meet Bitcoiners for the first time and, like, going to the the beach retreats and going and, like, shaking the hands of other Bitcoiners. And I remember the feeling being like, oh, these are, like, really my type of people. There was no flashiness.
There was no mouthy people who wanted loads of attention. They were, like, generally just kind of like family people who really didn't appreciate people interfering in their lives and weren't that happy with overreach in any aspect. They just like, just leave me alone. Let me work hard. Let me look after my family. Don't come and interfere. That's all they wanted. They cared about freedom, and they cared about free speech. And I just really liked it. Like, really excited me to see that. And then I was meeting other people. I'm like, oh, they're really smart. They can do all this, like, clever developer stuff that I have no idea how to do, and, like, this is cool. And, you know, you become friends with them because you're asking them questions about all this different stuff, and you realize that, okay. They might be, like, super geeky and know stuff that I'm never gonna know, but, like, they're really nice people. And so you make these friends. But I found, certainly, over the last, like, 18 months, 2 years, I don't wanna go to the conferences. I don't wanna, like, meet most of the people who are on these conference circuits.
I'd never say yes to going and speaking at one of these things. I'm I'm just not interested. Like, the people who seem to be at them, it feels to me like, I wanna be like a little mini celeb. I wanna have, like, a little following. I wanna have, like, a way of influencing people and and, like, extracting value from these people who I'm gonna tell them there's this freedom technology because it kind of sounds cool, and I kind of sound like a cypherpunk and blah blah blah. But, like, at the end of the day, I'm here for fear. And then I think, like, go into a fiat job then. You're gonna earn way more money. Like, even if you have a really successful, like, platform or product in the Bitcoin space, it's really hard to make money in it. So just go and get a decent job and just, like, fuck off. Yeah. It's,
[00:44:50] Unknown:
so I I am not super connected into, you know, the the conference scene or the influencer, web or anything like that, but I do go to some conferences. And as a speaker, you, of course, get to go to the backstage area or whatever blah blah. And it's it's having gotten a peek behind the curtain in a lot of these events, it's just been kinda disheartening. Yeah. Because everybody who's in that level who's speaking on the stage, not everybody, but most of those people are, as you kind of allude, looking to make a name for themselves. They're looking, you know, for connections to make a business deal happen. They're looking for their next podcast appearance. They're looking for their next referral shill or blah blah blah. Mhmm. But I will say even at I I have yet to attend a conference where I have not been able to connect with really solid people once you leave the velvet rope area.
Even the most fiat of conferences, when when you connect with the clubs, that for me, I don't even like the word pleb, but I'll use it anyway. Like, just average everyday Bitcoiners who maybe they just found out about about Bitcoin 6 months ago or maybe they've been around for 10 years. Who knows? But, people who are just there to meet other people and connect and talk about this thing like that, to me, that's that's still just a magical experience that I I treasure it every time I can get it. You Bitcoiners really are something about the incentives, Bitcoiners are really solid people. So I I I was invited to, an island in the Caribbean called Curacao to do a talk a couple weeks ago.
[00:46:34] Unknown:
Where which island is that? So Curacao.
[00:46:40] Unknown:
It's cur
[00:46:42] Unknown:
a Google
[00:46:43] Unknown:
it. Yeah. And then put in c, but it's really this c with a weird squiggly line under it. Oh, well. Yeah. A o. Okay. Curacao is off of the northern coast of Venezuela. It's a Caribbean island, and its its closest neighbor is Aruba. And Okay. This I I don't know if you're familiar with the Beach Boys song about, what I don't know the title of the song. Aruba, Jamaica. I'm gonna take you.
[00:47:13] Unknown:
I I vaguely
[00:47:15] Unknown:
I'm not a master of that. I vaguely Curacao didn't make that song, and I think people on the island are resentful of that. But, but it is an absolutely gorgeous island. They're connected with the Netherlands, so they're an independent country, but they're still under the kingdom of the Netherlands, whatever that means. Okay. But they, beautiful Caribbean island. And the guy who invited me there is an OG Bitcoiner who, I'm not gonna say too much here because I don't know how publicly he is with some of his details, but he was somewhere else in the world and ended up in Curacao for some reason. I don't know if it's because he, you know, suddenly had a ton of money because he was an early Bitcoiner or because he didn't like the place he was living. Whatever. Anyhow, he's in Curacao and has been there for several years. And Curacao really, punches above its weight class in terms of Bitcoin adoption.
And if you go to Nathan Day's B2C map
[00:48:13] Unknown:
Oh, Nathan Day. Jesus Christ. Awesome, dude. He's the worst. He's he's the one who bullied me into joining Nostra again, just constantly bleating at me. Again? Had you joined and stepped away and then came back? Yeah. That's exactly what happened. I got sick of it, and then he he just constantly him and Ben Gunn just constantly remind me
[00:48:34] Unknown:
why I need to be on there. In the beginning, Noster was kind of this echo chamber of how good Noster was. Mhmm. But it's it's got I I
[00:48:43] Unknown:
I'm not on Noster as much as Twitter, but I'm increasingly on Noster some. It is getting better. I Yeah. Say a lot of what I say just to wind people up, but, yeah, it is getting better. Compared to how it was a year or 2 ago, it's it's getting there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But, anyhow,
[00:49:00] Unknown:
this guy who's who's, living in Curacao kind of is this one man, orange peeling army. I think he actually has people that that help him now, but, there's a lot of local businesses. There was a a grocery store near where I was staying that I was I went to a few times, and you can pay with lightning, in the checkout. And, just here and there all over the islands, there's little places you can learn to windsurf with Bitcoin or
[00:49:30] Unknown:
Nice.
[00:49:31] Unknown:
This and that here. Beautiful island. El Salvador is amazing place, but I think Curacao is this lesser known but gorgeous vacation spot that has some awesome Bitcoiners that I got to meet and
[00:49:47] Unknown:
and and sit down and talk to while I was there. There seems to be a few dotting around. Is the what's the free private cities one? And there's a there's a few different sort of, like, islands, dotting around that are kind of doing Bitcoin y things on there, South America.
[00:50:05] Unknown:
Yeah. There are there are, in other Caribbean islands. I I admittedly you know you know the places that that you go to or you have occasion to learn about, and I just happened to there was a connection between the individual that invited me there, in that his Twitter handle is bccuracao. And he created a Bitcoin cold storage tool that I used back in 2013 2014 Oh, okay. Called bidaddress.org. And I think the website's still there. Bidaddress.org was this way to create paper wallets before hard wallets existed or were widely popularized, where you'd, you know, take an offline system, create private keys
[00:50:51] Unknown:
Run the mouse around, like, randomly. Was it? Yep. You've seen it. Yeah. I've yeah. I've used that before a long time ago. But, yeah, another one. Yeah. So he created this, and
[00:51:02] Unknown:
at some point in the last year or 2, he kind of discovered SeedSigner. And I have always just felt a little bit of a personal connection to him because I think they're projects that are related and solving similar problems in a similar kind of spirit. So I was excited to meet him just for that reason. But, yeah, solid place.
[00:51:24] Unknown:
That's the cool I can sound quite negative, what we were talking about earlier, and just, like, being a little bit pissed off with a lot of the space. But the positive side of it is, as you just said, like, you meet certain people who are doing great things, and they're welcoming and you get to see new places. And there is definitely a lot of that going on as well. And, like you mentioned, Nathan Day and, obviously, Ben Gunn and people in the who are traveling all over the place, creating different projects, and we're all helping each other. There's always, like, an understanding that you can reach into, like, a mesh to del group and be like, I need to ship something from here to here. Can someone help me? Does anyone know a way to do this? And does that you know, people will always help each other or I need some timber. Okay. Alright. I know someone. I need a welder. I I need a software developer who can do this. And and it's, it's that ground level stuff that is exciting and, like, gives the hope as well. I just wish more people could find it. You know? Like, I think that's my concern is that I I feel like I found it easily.
I don't I don't even really remember the path. I just remember coming in, very quickly found groups of people who are very genuine. And I guess my concern is just, like, I want that to continue. I want people to be able to, like, see the real grassroots stuff because I worry otherwise. You know, if I came in now exactly as I was in 2017, 2018, will I still be here? I'm not sure.
[00:52:58] Unknown:
No. You said the, the friends you make along the way are the real yield. That is true. Actually we we have a great local meetup where I'm at here in the Midwest, and I just like, with what we were talking about before with with family life and stuff, I just don't get to go as often as I would like to because they tend to meet on evenings and weekends. And on evenings and weekends, I have sports practices and, games to go to and, you know, family stuff. So maybe in the in the next chapter after the couple of these kids get into college, maybe there'll be time for more of that. But I I realize those opportunities. I before we get too far from the subject, I do wanna say if anyone is curious about Curacao and what's going on there, there's a guy on Twitter called Joe Nakamoto, who's a Bitcoin journalist, who was also there when I was there. And he's if he hasn't already, he was going to be releasing just kind of some interviews and some of the things that he learned and discovered on on the island. So that could be an interesting way to get a a painted picture of what's going on there. If it's some for the more adventurous, if it's some place they might like to visit. It looks beautiful.
[00:54:10] Unknown:
I'm looking at the pictures as we speak. It's
[00:54:13] Unknown:
stunning. So I will tell you, my I'm planning, hopefully, on taking my family there next year. That's that's that's how, how much I was affected by the experience there. But, like, one day, probably the last full day I was there, I rented a car and drove to the beach. I don't usually rent cars when I travel, but I wanted to see more of the island, and it was just the practical way. And so I drove 45 minutes away from the I was staying in the capital near, like, the historic section of town, drove to this beach, and the beach experience was so much different than the beach experience that I've had in the United States.
Like, when we go on vacation to Florida or, you know, Carolinas or, you know, something on the Atlantic coast, when you go to the beach, it's like a public park. So you're lucky if there are some trash cans and maybe a porta potty by the parking lot kind of a thing. I went to this it's they call it a private beach, and you think private beach, like, oh, you know, it's not open to the public or whatever, but, like, you go there. I'm always forgetting things. I forgot a swimsuit. And you pay I think it was $2.50 to get out to the beach.
They have chairs everywhere. They have shade. There's bathrooms. There's changing rooms. There's showers. There's water fountain, there's a little gift shop, there's a place where you can rent snorkel equipment or scuba equipment, there's a full restaurant and a bar. Like, this was the first time I went to a beach, and I was like, I I could actually see spending the whole day here with my family because it's that you can be comfortable and it's not like you're you when we go to the beach, it's like you have to bring your own water, you have to bring your own chairs, you have to bring your own shade, you have to bring snacks if you wanna bring them. Like, this was just such a an amazing experience. And the only other thing I'll say is I've I've never tried, snorkeling before.
Not like we didn't go to the beach a lot when I was a kid, so I've I've just never tried it. And so I for $8, I mentioned I forgot a swimsuit. I bought an inexpensive pair of swim trunks, I think, for $15 at the at the little gift shop there. And rented, you know, snorkel goggles and breathing tube or whatever it's called. And went out there, and it took me about 5 or 10 minutes to learn how to do it and how to consciously breathe the way you're supposed to. But once I got underwater, it was like it was like swimming around in, like, the aquarium at my kids' dentist office. Like, the the, like, Nemo fish everywhere, brightly colored fish, and they're all kind of circling around, you know, rocks. And and there's a little bit of a reef there. I don't know a lot about marine biology, but going underwater, it was like, oh my gosh. I have to bring my kids back here to see this because I've I've never snorkeled before, and it was just I get why people are into it now. It's just absolutely mystifying to see the schools of fish and how close you can get to them. And it was, I it was just an amazing experience.
[00:57:07] Unknown:
I have to check that out. I do plan on doing a South America trip at some point in the not too distant future. It definitely is drawing me across. There's just so much interesting stuff going on there. It's beautiful. There's sunshine, and I think the draw will happen even more as we approach winter here in the UK, and it's getting cold and miserable. And I'm seeing these videos coming out of South America. I'm like,
[00:57:32] Unknown:
yeah. Maybe I'll be getting over there. Would you envision that as, like a multiple country sort of trip, or do you have any destinations in mind?
[00:57:39] Unknown:
Probably. Yeah. I'd probably just go and visit people. Mhmm. I'd probably put a plan together of like, okay. These are the places that have been suggested and try and make a a longer trip of it. I don't even really wanna stay in the UK long term. So I am, in the back of my head, always looking. Mhmm. I'm always looking like, where are the other options? But it's it's a big move with the family. And so it's kind of like it would need to tick more boxes than I've seen ticked at the moment. I don't wanna jump out of the frying pan into the fire. I know the UK has its problems.
Definitely has its problems. The main problem being the weather because it's so shit and miserable. But, like, I know it, and I'd like if everything kicks off here, I'm fine. Like, unless it gets really bad, I'm fine. Whereas, like, you go somewhere new, you go on a holiday, it seems all rosy and lovely. And like you say, oh, you see the fish, and isn't that lovely? And things seem good, but then it's like Yeah. Yeah. The reality of life kicks in. You're like, there's no, like, decent school or, like, there's you know what I mean? Like, you need there's certain things you need. So Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I've always got my my eye open and anywhere with with low taxes and more freedom is what think about El Salvador? Would you,
[00:58:54] Unknown:
is that something you'd
[00:58:56] Unknown:
I don't know that I really like or trust their top boy. The country needs a a bit more Lindy
[00:59:03] Unknown:
before before I would consider, you know, moving there or anything like that. It's just you you don't know what happens after Bukele or if yeah. Or if he takes a turn or something, it's it's yeah. Yeah. But but beautiful to visit. I I can absolutely recommend visiting there. I've I've been there twice, and I would go back. Okay.
[00:59:23] Unknown:
Okay. Did you go for conferences? Or
[00:59:26] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. The first was in 2022 for the it wasn't the first one. It was the second, adopting Bitcoin conference that they had in El Salvador. Went with Keith and another guy who was collaborating with Seed Center at the time who he's more fluent and had he'd been there before, so he had kinda like more on the ground knowledge. Great experience. I have a little bit of a challenge in that we went there in the fall. And, of course, south of the equator, that's the spring. And I have seasonal allergies that that apparently are not compatible if I'm not medicated. So both the times I've been there, I've been struggling with, like, sinus congestion and inflammation.
But the first time was that adopting Bitcoin in 22. And then the second time I went to Bitcoin Beach last fall with a group of Bitcoiners from thank God for Bitcoin. And they were they had kind of like a private event where there's, I assume this is all still underway, but they were in the process of thinking about spinning up an organization that was kinda like Bitcoin for missions. I you might call it, like like the Human Rights Foundation, but it's more focused on using Bitcoin as a tool to support Christian missionaries. And, I've been somewhat forthright about my faith, but the weird thing is I'm Catholic and everybody else there, was Protestant.
So I was a little bit of this fish out of water. I never know how to approach that sort of situation because I know that some people who are not Catholic have opinions about Catholics. And I so it's it's a but they were all very, very nice, very welcoming. I I did. It was a great experience, but that was my second El Salvador trip, which I felt was like a little bit more. The first trip felt like because of the conference, it was very curated experience. Like, on the 3rd day of the conference, they had a guided sort of field trip or whatever excursion to Bitcoin Beach, and it was on these huge tour buses.
And it's about a I think it's like a 45 or a 55 minute drive from the capital. And you're going to these huge tour buses that are being escorted by the national traffic police, you know, on their motorcycles and stuff. And it it just felt like a very on the rails sort of guided experience, whereas the second trip was more like I had a little bit more freedom to explore on my own. And, that was a great experience too. I I, you know, the the people in El Salvador and what they went through under the sort of previous situation there was just Yeah. Harrowing way to live life. And it was interesting because it feels like to me, it feels like in El Salvador in America, there's this commercial that one of the presidential candidates ran in the eighties. I think it was Reagan. And the theme of the commercial was something like it's morning in America.
And it was just this all these sort of visual things of, like, people getting up for work and people getting ready to do this and a really kind of productive environment. And that's the vibe that I got in El Salvador. It's like before when the gangs were in charge of everything, people told me that there were, like, 2 hours a day in most places where it was generally agreed upon that you could leave your house and go to the store and do your business. But other than that, unless you needed to leave to get your kids to school or go to work, like, you just did not leave your house. It was it was a very sort of captive environment, And there was this 2 hour window when everybody agreed that if we got to go out, we got to go out. We're all going to do it once. And now just the number of construction projects and just the vibe you get from people there, you know, hopefully everything is great with Bukele, and it continues in a positive direction. But, like, people there are really hopeful and really just happy, genuine, caring, giving people, at least all the people I encountered. And it was it gives them a really good vibe there. So, hopefully, they stay on that that course.
[01:03:38] Unknown:
Yeah. It seems positive. I mean, it's pretty terrifying if you live in that kind of environment.
[01:03:44] Unknown:
Totally.
[01:03:45] Unknown:
Yeah. Just worrying, oh, I wanna go out and get some milk. Well, you know, I could be killed. It's not it's not a great place to, to live or raise a family. So in many ways, like, I find in the UK, a lot of people in certain areas have had it so easy that you have this kind of champagne socialism. Mhmm. They don't know how bad things can be because they've never seen it. They're, like, too relaxed. And then if you have someone who's seen how bad things can be, and now they actually go, well, we wanna keep it good, and we wanna make it better. Mhmm. And they have a fire under their ass. Like, you'd be surprised what those types of people can do. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to see how it plays out. So in
[01:04:30] Unknown:
Bitcoin Beach where I was, right next to the house I was living into, there was a I don't know. There's a vacant lot or there used to be a building there, whatever. But because there's so much active construction, I assume that they were clearing this land so that they could come in. It's it's prime beachfront properties, so I'm sure somebody was building something there. But, like, I kid you not, it's a rocky sort of terrain there, so they have just all these naturally occurring rocks that they're clearing out to be able to, I guess, pour foundation and begin construction.
And in another part of the world, like, this is something that somebody'd be doing with 1 or more, like, backhoes or, you know, they have some sort of heavy equipment there. There's literally a dude with one arm crawling around in the foundation or the whatever the previous building that was there, taking rocks with one arm and throwing them out of, you know, the what looked like the building space into a pile so they could be moved somewhere else, I guess. Like like, there is everybody there is hustling and, like, just being product. I don't know. It was it was just Mhmm. I I I I'm probably overselling it, but it was a great vibe there. Great vibe.
[01:05:35] Unknown:
Well, that's good to hear. And I guess, you know, people will flock to these areas. If it starts working, people will flock to these areas, and the most productive people will flock there, and it'd be interesting to see what can happen. One final thing for Nope. I cut you off. No. That's alright. I was gonna say one final question I have for you before we probably close this out because if I'm honest with you, I'm fucking exhausted, and I'm probably starting to not make any sense. But, I just wanted to have your view on the privacy side of Bitcoin.
I know it's not your wheelhouse necessarily, but to me, it's really concerning. But then I'm in a little bubble of people who really, really care and take it seriously. It's interesting for me to ask other people, like, what their view on this is because mine at the moment is like, I'm quite worried. Mhmm. Do you feel that's like an overblown thing, or are you kind of feeling a similar, like, there is a real issue at the moment?
[01:06:39] Unknown:
So I disclaimer, before I say anything else is that I have always been preoccupied with Bitcoin's store of value, uninflatable asset sort of thing. I understand that people have privacy concerns, and in some ways, I share them, but it's not been my mental focus. So my commentary is probably not gonna be as
[01:07:00] Unknown:
relevant or smart or whatever. That's why I'm asking you. Is it like I know you're not in the privacy bubble, and sometimes it's interesting to sort of look outside of, like, your own bubble and and you're not in this tiny little group that's, like, obsessing over it. Yeah. So I would divide privacy into
[01:07:19] Unknown:
2 kind of different spheres. 1 is, like, long term savings privacy, and the other is day to day. I'm trying to spend SATS transactional privacy. And there's obviously a little bit of overlap between those two because sometimes you wanna spend their savings and sometimes you wanna move, you know, pocket money into long term savings. My impression of privacy with your long term savings is that it's definitely possible, but the tools are not there yet. Maybe a part of the reason that the tools aren't there yet is because there aren't enough privacy conscious consumers and builders out there to make it happen. We haven't reached that, like, critical mass where it's a problem yet. Human beings are generally kind of a reactive sort of species in some way. We're not always good at anticipating problems and being proactive. We end up, I I think it's because we're efficient, and we we don't waste energy on a problem until it proves that it's a problem sometimes.
Mhmm. And maybe privacy hasn't been a big enough problem for anyone that there's not that critical mass there. And I don't really have any other thoughts about on chain Bitcoin savings privacy. But on transactional privacy, when we talk about Noster and all the, you know, little cultish kind of behavior there, for a long time, I would always see Cali or some of the other e cash people making all these posts about cashew and nuts and e cash and all this kind of stuff. And Mhmm. I I kind of understood what it was about, but it it just seemed it I don't know. It it it wasn't my rabbit hole, and so I just kinda set it aside and was like, no, whatever.
It's custodial. It is custodial. But I think, honestly, I think custodial gets a bad rap. If you can do custodial in a privacy preserving way, we're always going to have the use case of walking around with, at this stage of the game, is 2 or $300 where if we lost that money, it's not the end of the world. Custodial solutions do provide convenience and an opportunity to onboard people in a way that is not like I I can't imagine onboarding someone with a true lightning wallet where you have to open channels and explain to them that, like, okay. The first time the first time you send money to this wallet, we're gonna have to keep 5 or $10 because you have to open a channel, and that's gonna take maybe 10 to 40 minutes.
And once you have that channel, you have all the beads on one side of the channel, and so you're gonna have to spend some or receive some to get the beads on the right side so that you can able to it's like that's we we need stuff that abstracts away all of that complication. And, when I was in Prague for the the Prague conference there, there was some workshops, I think, 2 days before the event, and I had my first interaction with an e cash wallet. It's actually a progressive web app. Anybody who's listening can go to a website called cashew.me. And when I'm trying to convince a bartender to take a tip in Bitcoin or, like, an Uber driver or in that kind of situation where you wanna onboard somebody quickly, that website that it's a progressive web app. And when you first visit that website on a mobile, it kind of, you know, reminds you, like, oh, you should save this to your home screen and blah blah blah. And, you know, if if you accumulate money in here, you should write these words down, etcetera. But I think it is up there with the quickest and easiest ways to onboard people to quickly get sats in their hands and let them start thinking about Bitcoin and experiencing what it's like to pay with Bitcoin and stuff. Now the downside of it is you have 2 balances in there. 1 of them is lightning, and the other is e cash, and that's sort of probably confusing to people who, are still learning.
But in terms of an onboarding experience, it's awfully compelling. And like I said, I don't have a problem with a custodial wallet as long as people understand you shouldn't put more than a couple $100 in there. Like, something if you go to a meetup and they have a beer tap you can buy beer with, or if you go to a conference and you're gonna be eating food, or if you're lucky enough to be in a a circular Bitcoin economy environment where you can go to a restaurant and pay with Bitcoin or you can pay your dentist with Bitcoin or whatever like that. But but anyhow, what I'm getting at is I haven't experimented a ton with Ecash.
But as I understand it, again, from somebody who's not in that world, like, there's some pretty strong privacy assurances with it. And, it is custodial, but I I think it's it can be part of a toolset that is useful and makes sense over time.
[01:11:49] Unknown:
I think that's fair. Q will, absolutely hate me saying this, but I I agree in terms of, like, small amounts is okay for custodial. Just like you say, like, you have cash in your wallet. Like, someone mugs you, you're fucked. Like, it's just well, it's just one of those things you lose it. Mhmm. I think my concern more is, like, not having the privacy tools that we had previously. It is an issue, like, ones that actually work. And then culturally is my concern. It's like, do new people come in? Are they understanding the long term play here? Because I've I've said for a long time, like, someone comes in. They say, I don't like the government having control of the money, and I don't like central banks having control of the money. And I and I want to have I wanna hold my own keys and have my own coins. And, like, that's what I want, and I don't want it being inflated away. Great.
Okay. Then they say, okay. I think this is better money. I think that this is gonna become used by more and more people. And as it grows, at some point, this is gonna threaten other currencies and and threaten power structures that currently stand. And if they believe that and they look at any history book, they might think, maybe I could be a target if this is successful. And maybe if I've gone and bought my coins on a custodial exchange, and even if I have sent them out to cold storage, even if I've done that, but I'm listening to every podcast and everyone just telling me to go on whichever exchange they're shilling. I'm not understanding that that is gonna be tracked, and it's very, very easy for them to track it. Unless I'm jumping through some fairly elaborate hoops.
Are they not expecting a knock on the door at some point? Are they not expecting that they're gonna have a problem down the line when their Bitcoin's gone to $1,000,000? They think they're a cypherpunk. They think they're gonna change the world, and they get a knock at the door. And they say, hey. We've seen this has come from this exchange. It's had one hop. Very obvious. We're gonna now tax you unrealized capital gains. If you don't give it to us, we're gonna put you in prison. They'll yield. They'll give it across because they don't wanna go to prison. And then we're in a very difficult situation. And I just think that maybe it's a cultural thing now where custodial will like to set someone up. It's just easy, like, whatever for a few quid or whatever.
But I just worry that we lose that kind of, like we stop looking forward. We stop thinking, like, where does this go and how bad things could get if currencies fail, if Bitcoin becomes the world reserve and what people say like that. It's like, do you not think that's gonna piss people off? I think that's my concern. Maybe it's overblown. Maybe it's a long way away, but I just feel like maybe we're losing a bit of that, like, fighting spirit or, like, adversarial thinking.
[01:14:55] Unknown:
I think, as with everything, like, the the the truth is gonna be somewhere in the middle. I think there's some aspects to what you're saying that are true that we are losing some of that as Bitcoin becomes more mainstream. I think that's tied up in what you and I were talking about about, you know, the mainstream podcasts and conferences and stuff. I don't have a great answer. The perspective I have is that revolutions are initiated, instigated rather by a vocal minority. And, the, I read a fair amount about the American Revolution and the revolutionary period. And it was really, you know, a small group of the population, sub 10% that was, you know, so upset with what they saw as tyrannical rule that they roused an entire geographic area to basically begin a war with, at the time, what was the dominant world power at the time. So I I I hope that as long as we do have that vocal minority who are passionate about privacy and are willing to talk about that message in a way that's compelling to other people and either build the tools themselves or find a way to finance the tools to be built or whatever needs. I I I do see a path to where privacy is more ubiquitous in big Bitcoin even if everybody that uses it isn't on the privacy train. But, it remains to be seen. I don't know. It's a fair answer.
One thing I wanted to make sure that I said when we were talking was to express some gratitude to Kyu and to Zach. When I was listening to the interview with Zach, I think somebody had prompted me, and I every time somebody says something, we'll say it ungenerous about SeedSigner. I always get, like, 2 or 3 Telegram notifications from people that I know who are like, oh, gosh. Somebody you you gotta go listen to this. Somebody just said this night. I probably gotten a similar notification that said, oh, Zach Herbert was talking about SeedSigner on Ungoverable Misfits. And I was like, oh my gosh. What what do I need to be, like, figuring out how to react to now?
And it was an immensely pleasant surprise that he had a nuanced take that I felt was fair, and that was a refreshing experience. So for that, I'm grateful. And Kyu has been I've been in touch with him since the earliest innings of SeedSire and always appreciated him as well. And I know he's not with Foundation anymore, but, Seth, I had my first probably I'd seen Seth for privacy at events in the past and stuff, but I had the first, like, 25 or 30 minutes just sit down and talk to him, back in July in Nashville. And it was thoroughly enjoyable experience. I didn't really have any preconceived notions of him, but, you know, he's a little younger than me, but we're 2 kinda middle ish age guys who like to talk about history and, yeah, have obviously similar interests in Bitcoin and stuff. And it was it was a great experience getting to talk to him on a little bit more. He's a great guy. I really have a lot of time for surf. But speaking of those in person conversations, are you is it in the plans for you to go to Amsterdam next month?
[01:18:14] Unknown:
It is not. No.
[01:18:17] Unknown:
I actually went last year. I know. And I was there too, and somehow we did not, connect.
[01:18:23] Unknown:
Yeah. I can't divulge exactly what my problems were in life, but it just so happened that I had some major problems, like, really major problems happening just as I left. And then when I got there and I turned up at the conference, I got a phone call, which was an even more major problem. So my head was absolutely I was nowhere. It was it was horrendous. I did, you know, a couple of drinks with q. I've spent the rest of the time on the phone trying to solve problems back at home. Mhmm. Didn't really get to see the conference very much. Metacy, mister Crown, who, I've I've been working with for years years years, does our website and loads of the art, and, like, he's a good friend. I barely got to see him. And I was thinking, oh, I'd love to go back. But then I realized, I don't really wanna go back because the actual conference part wasn't my cup of tea.
It was only the little interactions, the little bit of time that I had was just chatting to people in the odd bar and, like, couple of interactions outside of the conference. But I have to say, like, my little bit of time in the conference when I went to go and annoy queue just for, like, 10 minutes, it just wasn't I don't wanna shit on Bitcoin Magazine too much, but it just wasn't my scene. I don't think I'll go to any of their conferences again. Maybe I'll just go and lurk in one of the bars, like, when one's going on or something. I don't know. Yeah. No. I
[01:19:49] Unknown:
like I said, my, the real valuable interactions for me are always with just everyday Bitcoiners who are there to see the sites and,
[01:19:59] Unknown:
meet like minded people. You're there this time.
[01:20:02] Unknown:
Yeah. And, you know, I have to give Bitcoin Magazine props because as as difficult as some of the other events and media actors have been to deal with, they have always been invariably good to our project. Oh, that's good. And I get that people get frustrated about the shit coining that creeps in or, you know, they'll be talking about ordinals or that kind of stuff. And I'm in line that that is frustrating, but I know, you know, at least half a dozen really solid Bitcoiners who work for that organization. Mhmm. And they've just always been very generous, both Keith and I, in terms of giving us a platform to share Seed Center with others. They've, That's good. They've been really great about that. So I I get it, but I'm a fan of theirs, I guess. I'm obviously biased.
[01:20:53] Unknown:
Yeah. No. Well, it's good. I mean, it's it's good to hear they're giving you a platform. Yep. Maybe next year. Maybe we'll see. I will probably won't go to the conference, but maybe we'll get a chance to have a drink. Or when I'm in America at some point, I keep threatening to do that as well. Max invades America. At some point, that will happen. Massive appreciation again for for you and the team and what you're doing. And it's been good just to have a catch up and a chat with you, mate. Always enjoy just having a conversation with you. And we haven't covered too much of the seats on a project or really barely anything at all. So I would say to people who are listening to this, who maybe haven't listened to our previous conversations, probably go back and listen to that last one where we had the whole team on. I'll put the episode number in the show notes or Jordan will because I'll forget to do it. Jordan will definitely do that. Yeah. Yeah. Go and have a listen and check out the project, and we'll keep trying to get the word out and having these conversations and doing what we can because it's important.
[01:21:51] Unknown:
We appreciate you. I appreciate that. And, Yeah. I'm looking forward to our paths crossing IRL at some point. A 100%.
[01:22:00] Unknown:
Alright then, mate. Well, I'm gonna go and get some sleep. It's been good to chat. Just stay on the line for a minute to make sure we save this. But, yeah, enjoy the conference, and we'll catch up soon. Thanks for listening, and thanks again to everyone who's been supporting the show, whether that's sending in sats by podcasting 2.0, tipping us with Monero, sharing with friends and family, buying art, clothing, or anything else that people are doing to support us. It really is appreciated, and it's kept us going. If you haven't already checked out the beautiful website that mister Crown works so hard on, go to Ungovernable Misfits dot com. You can check out articles, clothing, artwork, the podcast, and much more.
Catch you on the next one, and stay Ungovernable.
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