Ungovernable Misfits

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Welcome to the The Confab, the term derives from "confidential talk", which was commonly used in the Prohibition Era for meetings and conversations that took place in the smoky, rule-breaking speakeasies of that time.

The informal, privacy focused and clandestine nature of Ungovernable Misfits lends itself to these discussions.  So, grab a seat and a stiff drink from the concealed bar, listen and revel in the conversation.

On this episode, Diverter and Zelko drop-in to speak with Max about what happened to Samourai Wallet and TDevD, the broader implications and where do we go from here...

Show Discussion

The Aftermath and Emotional Rollercoaster

- Discussing the initial reaction and shock to the news about the Samourai Wallet team
- Exploring the feelings of disbelief, worry, and determination

Understanding the Gravity of the Situation

- Analyzing the broader implications and the attack on self-custody and privacy
- Explaining how this goes beyond just Samourai Wallet and is a wider assault on Bitcoin principles

The Chilling Effect and Uncertain Future

- Discussing the fear and hesitation developers may have in building privacy tools
- Exploring the potential domino effect on other privacy-focused projects like Monero

The Fight Ahead and the Need to Rally

- Emphasizing that the legal battle is not lost yet and the importance of supporting Samourai
- Highlighting the role of the community in donating, spreading awareness, and not giving up

The Power of Open Source and Decentralization

- Discussing how the open-source nature of Samourai's work can enable forks and continuity
- Exploring the potential for anonymous or older cypherpunk developers to step up

Cautious Optimism and the Path Forward

- Ending on a note of determination and belief that the fight is not over
- Encouraging the community to stay focused, engaged, and ready to support the ongoing efforts



IMPORTANT LINKS

• https://freesamourai.com
• https://p2prights.org/donate.html
• https://ronindojo.io/always-rise-after-a-fall/
• https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68467223/united-states-v-rodriguez/
• https://x.com/frankcorva/status/1795509090946363682

SHOW SPONSORS

FOUNDATION (https://foundationdevices.com/ungovernable)

Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.

As a sovereign computing company, Foundation is the antithesis of today’s tech conglomerates. Returning to cypherpunk principles, they build open source technology that “can’t be evil,”

Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show.

Use code: Ungovernable at check out for 3 months free VPN usage with IVPN.


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TREASURE:

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(00:00:00) INTRO 🔥

(00:02:38) BOOSTS ⚡️

(00:06:40) THANK YOU FOUNDATION 🤝

(00:07:49) Please Wait While We Connect Your Call...

(00:10:02) From High in the Sky to Low on Landing

(00:12:48) The Only Ones Holding the Line

(00:15:11) Compartmentalized to ☠️

(00:18:58) How Do You Get People to Care!?

(00:28:17) What's Left in the Wake?

(00:41:35) Following the "Guidance" of the Law

(00:47:26) The Path is Clear

(00:53:57) Support in Any Way You Can

(00:58:27) You Don't Jaywalk, When You're Committing Other Crimes

(01:02:43) Samourai Still Works, Use It

(01:04:21) Ronin Dojo Announcement

(01:07:23) Validation of Open Source

(01:14:04) The Battle is Not Lost ⚔️

(01:15:16) Keep Getting the Word Out

(01:18:01) 🎵 Iron Sky 🎵

(01:23:12) If You're Still Here...

[00:00:04] Unknown:

Bitcoin   is close to becoming worthless.  

[00:00:16] Unknown:

Now what's the Bitcoin?  

[00:00:19] Unknown:

Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah.  

[00:00:22] Unknown:

Oh. The greatest scam in history.  

[00:00:25] Unknown:

Let's get it.  

[00:00:27] Unknown:

Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. 0. Yeah.  

[00:00:42] Unknown:

Alright, you ungovernable misfits.   I'm your host, Max.   Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless, and doomed to fail. But what if everyone's wrong?   What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?   Join me, as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space, and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.   Welcome back to Ungovernable Misfits.   Today's episode is another confab episode.   We might not actually be sat in a speakeasy,   and it isn't actually prohibition times, but it's starting to fucking feel like it. I sat down with Zelco   and Diverter.  

Diverter was on the last confab episode, and since then,   the Bitcoin world has changed in a big way.   Anyone who listens to this show will know what I'm talking about. Anyone new to the show, I suggest you go back and listen to the hashtag   Free Samurai episode to get the rundown.   But we dived into it. We talked about what's going on.   We talked about the future of privacy in Bitcoin.   And although things do look pretty bleak out there, there is hope. I always love having these guys on. It's great to chat to them. And I think you're gonna really enjoy this one.   Most importantly,   since recording this episode,   there is now a way to donate   to samurai and t dev.  

It's important, and we get into it in the episode, so I won't blab on now. But if there ever was a fight for privacy and freedom in the Bitcoin world,   it's today.   You can look in the show notes, and there is a link. If anyone can't see it or has any problems   or wants any help in donating to Samurai and T Dev, you can reach out to me and I can point you in the right direction.   I wanna thank everyone who's been supporting the show with boosts   in Fountain,   Breeze, and all the other podcasting 2.0 apps.   It's amazing to see. It really does help the show. It helps us pay for the editing. It helps us keep the website up and everything looking clean. And it's just amazing to see the support from you guys. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I'm gonna read some of the boosts.   Black coffee with the biggest ball of boost sending 200,000   sats   and either a fisting emoji or a fist in the air like a rock on thing. Thank you, black coffee. Appreciate you, mate. Late stage HODL with 55,555   sats saying thank you both. Thank you.  

8 Myth Randir   17,777   sat. Your short list of guests just got 2 people shorter.   You're not wrong, mate. This is obviously from the last episode that I recorded with Diverter.   And I remember actually saying in there,   there's very few people that I want to get back on the show.   Sam Ray and T Dev   being 2 of them. And,   let's do what we can. We cover this a lot in this episode, but we're gonna get them back.   Fundamentals.   Pin this episode,   Diverter makes it really simple to understand the parameters of freedom. Protect that man.   Fundamentals again. Pre boost while I wait for all the gifts to load.  

Ungerful Misfits plus Diverter equals Good Times.   Ghost of Shagrack.   Heart, heart, heart, praying. Sad face, sad face. Shit coin. Shit coin. Camper says, refreshing discussion.   Chad Farrow,   great to hear Diverter back on the show.   Wartime,   great conversation.   Fire.   Darthcoin,   guys, why this podcast is named Ungovernable Misfits if you always go back to debate government laws? If you are ungovernable, that means you don't give a shit about government rules.   You are sovereign individual   that cannot be responsible for some bullshit written on a piece of paper by some dudes in suits.   Read more. I'm not gonna actually give you a website. I've looked through it. It's not helpful.  

To know the difference, watch more at again, not gonna share it. People can go and found something if they wanna see it. To know what you are consenting.   Well, Darth Coin, since you wrote that,   2 of the only people who were actually pushing for freedom   in Bitcoin   ended up in prison cells and are facing 25 years because of it. So know your enemy. I wouldn't larp around just because you have a field somewhere with some trees around it and you think you're hard.   You cannot give a shit about the rules, and you can skirt around them as best you can, and you can do it in the smartest way. But pretending that you're hard and you're not scared of the government with all the guns and the ability to lock you in a cell is just fucking stupid and childish   and not bright.  

So I would suggest that people know their enemy. Think about things properly.   Absolutely. You shouldn't be going along and you should complying.   Be smart.   Pies.   Yo, son. I'm ungovernable,   bitch. And then there's a smiley face with a tongue out, strong-arm,   little face,   biz, mushroom, mushroom, mushroom, rocket, rocket, rocket.   Sun, sun, sun, sun, sun, sun, sun, but like slowly   going dark and then coming round again. Very nice buys. Sat Smitsfit killed it again. Leave the USB stick in the garage under the aluminium desk.   Richard Grieser   diverter is the man. He was always ahead of the curve in knowing compliance was not the answer. Yes, he was.  

Max Wood. Thanks for the great work, Max. I enjoyed it. Definitely.   Cyborg, samurai,   never give up.   Right. That's the boost. Thanks to everyone. I really appreciate it. As I said, it really helps us grow. If you like the show and you wanna share it with friends and family, we really would appreciate that too.   Before we jump in, I just wanna say a big thank you to Foundation Devices.   Foundation Devices keep this show going. We refuse to sell out to shitty sponsors.   We only wanna work with the best. And Foundation Devices are are fully open source.   They make beautiful hardware that works.  

Any fuckwit can use it and keep their Bitcoin secure.   It really is so simple, and you can set this up with their companion app, Envoy,   with very, very easy to use labeling.   You can also pair this with my favorite desktop wallet, Sparrow.   And if you have any problems setting it up or you're not a 100% confident,   you can pay an additional $99   and Bitcoin Q and A will walk you through it.   It couldn't be easier to keep your Bitcoin secure. Check them out at Foundation   Devices   and use the code Ungovernable   for an additional 3 months free VPN   with IVPN.  

Enjoy the show, and help us, Free samurai.  

[00:07:50] Unknown:

Welcome back. Hey. Hey. Hey. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.   Give me it's gonna be, like, 2 minutes for me, fellas, and I'll be ready to go. Is that okay? Because I got Yeah. Yeah. That's no worries. You, you're a bit quiet.  

[00:08:03] Unknown:

I am. I don't know whether you can turn your   game up   a little bit better.   Okay. Hang on. I'll I'll work on it. I can do some bits post edit as well, but it's best if it's How about that? That better? That's way better. Okay. Oh, yeah. That's loud. I'm really quiet. It's too loud.  

[00:08:20] Unknown:

Literally never happened in life.   Alright. I'll be I'll be right back, guys.  

[00:08:26] Unknown:

We're sorry. All of our representatives are still assisting other customers.   Please remain on the line as we value your call.  

[00:09:14] Unknown:

That better be fucking diverted, man. Fucking I've I've I've just been waiting for you to shut up for, like, forever now. I gotta Shut up. Oh, here he is. Fucking hell. I mean   Asshole. Asshole. I don't know what else you want me to do. Like, I thought this was a 2 man show, but I was   re rethinking things.  

[00:09:33] Unknown:

We can record now. Now you've finished your fucking Pilates. How was it?   Ah. Getting limber?  

[00:09:41] Unknown:

Oh my god. This is so loud.   Oh my god.  

[00:09:48] Unknown:

Yeah. I had to I was doing a little deal there. Had to had to do a little deal. You know, a little cash money cash money records for the 99 and the 2000. Oh my dear god.  

[00:10:02] Unknown:

I hate you.   Well, Diverter, it's nice to have you back on, mate. It's a little bit different   conversation we'd be having today than last time. I set you off air. I was on a real high.   I was listening back. Ungovernable Misfits has been flying in the chart. Listener count is going fucking crazy. I was all hyped listening to us have our conversation, and I was like, oh, this is really good. This is a good one. This is gonna be great. Yeah. I fucking land   the news hits, which, obviously, we're gonna get into. Right. It was the weirdest   feeling,   the conversation we had of, like, warnings and worries and everything else, and then bang like a fucking punch in the face.  

Right.   And here we are.  

[00:10:46] Unknown:

Yeah. It was one of those things where, you know, people will,   like, act like this is not the case. But truth is, like, we talk about a lot of these things and and as far as threat modeling and all this stuff, and now this is why we're doing it in case this ever happens. But there's, like, there's I don't care who you are. There's something in the back of your mind   that is just like I mean, that'll never actually happen. But, like, if it did,   you know what I mean? Like, if it did, though, we would still be protected, but, like, that's probably that's that's that'll never actually happen. And then when it actually happens, it's like,   fucking, I knew it.  

But it's it's still like a it's still like it's not real. It's a surreal feeling. It's  

[00:11:24] Unknown:

crazy. Yeah. Very surreal. And the conversations   since then have just been eerie and strange, and I don't even know what to use or do anymore. Everything that was part of my everyday   usage is now just fucking gone. And   the people that I respect   are in a cage.   And   I don't know. It's just it's a fucking weird situation. So this conversation is important to get you and Zelco on because   we should not be forgetting. It's only been a couple of weeks, and it sounds a bit fucking quiet out there. And I think we need to,   remind everyone   what's going on, where's it going, and,   not to be quiet about this because   it matters.  



[00:12:11] Unknown:

I mean, yeah, it it matters for   the the thing that gets me is that it matters on so many different levels. Like, it's not just about, you know, your individual privacy, and it's not just about, like, these guys with their tools. I see the attack on a on a bunch of different levels.   And so, like, any of these like, anybody in Bitcoin should care because it's this could easily get pushed up or used against any wallet team or any, you know, self custody as a whole. You know, anybody who isn't using their own node to broadcast a transaction,   you know, could potentially they could use this if if all goes, like, doomsday.  

Mhmm. My personal opinion is black belt as this is gonna sound is that if they lose,   Bitcoin   is is done. Like, there's nothing left. They were holding the only line, you know, that kept Bitcoin Bitcoin.   That's, like, the sad reality.   I go through waves of, like, emotions on this stuff. Like, not that I'm an overly emotional person other than angry, but   the, you know, when you go to think about it, it's this could just be the end of of, you know, uncaptured,   self custodied   Bitcoin.   You   know,   really, they could, they could allow the self custody to continue and just   push it AML walls and KYC everything.  

And everyone will be too scared because   the toughest,   you know, of the warriors, right, of, like, the   cutting edge, if you will, you know, they got taken down. So everybody else will just, in theory, right, if no one else takes a mantle, but,   you know, that would be ultimately the end. I don't see any of these other people willing to make a stand, to be honest.  

[00:13:55] Unknown:

Well, they've been folding like fucking wet cardboard is what I've seen in the last couple of weeks. It's been,   pretty sad to see. I mean, it's kind of always been like that. I think   well, I'll speak for myself. I've really taken   for granted   samurai and the whole ecosystem.   And just knowing that no matter how stupid   the things that I read are on Twitter or the things that people say to me, I can always just think, well, it doesn't really matter. I run my own node. I use the tools, and no one can fuck with my stuff because   I have these things that I can use, and I can be private, and, like, I can do things right. So it never, like, it never was that much of a problem. And, like, now it's a real wake up call of like, oh,   shit. There's not really a lot out there.  

And now I'm in, like, real trouble. Like, what what do I use? And I'm trying to rethink my whole setup and   rethink what this whole thing is, and it slides further and further to this, like,   banker coin bullshit, fucking   retard   stuff that I see everywhere, and I'm like, shit. I took them for granted. Like, it was   so much better than anything else, so much further ahead than anything else. And now, like, what do we got? Fucking join market.   That's it.  

[00:15:12] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's,   and and to kinda   touch back on something that we talked about in the previous podcast was how we kinda got into a little bit of, like, how the social   scene of Bitcoin is very compartmentalized   and how you know, I think I mentioned on the podcast, like, how I'll, you know, I'll go one place and and see some people, and they'll be like, oh my god. It's the murderer. Like, oh my god. Oh my god. And then, like, the entire rest of Twitter's like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, I have Oh, yeah. Definitely.   No idea. Who the fuck is this guy? Yeah. Never heard of this guy in my life. Everything's very compartmentalized.  

And so what my fear is   that it will stay that way in   even when the attack is not compartmentalized.   So they're they're not this is not just an attack on privacy.   This is not just, you know,   like, a cherry picked attack on, quote, unquote,   money launderers.   It is a very, very, very selective prosecution,   and I think you said go hit on the exact reason why   earlier. You know, whenever you whenever you start talking about nation state attacks and how this happens, the first thing that people start talking about is, yeah. Well, they can't do that to everybody. They can't lock everybody up. They don't have enough resources to go after everybody. And what's always the response? Well, they don't have to. Make a few examples. Right? And and then, you know, people start to fall in line. And so who is the best example to make? Well, it's obviously the the biggest, the toughest, the guys that are carrying the mantle for the rest of the space as far as cypherpunk ethos goes. And I think that was that's very clear to have been the samurai wallet   team ecosystem   over the last few years. I I don't think there's a whole lot of argument about that or there shouldn't be. So you snipe these 2 guys. Right? You you basically   make that your example. We've already seen, as you mentioned, several other companies and things   completely unrelated   to privacy, quote, unquote. You know, we're talking about lightning, LSP providers,   shit like that. They're already folding. So they see the writing on the wall. So the attack   is not a compartmentalized,   okay, we're attacking privacy or we're attacking this one single tool. That's not what it is. It's an example attack. It's a leading domino.  

And   the breadth of it, though, it's so wide.   If you actually read through the indictment, the what they're alleging, how they're alleging it, and then you also look at similar cases like the Tornado Cash developers   and the government's response   to the Tornado Cash developers.   Mhmm. You start looking through that, and you start seeing how the government is arguing this case. And there is an it's not even a debate. It's not like a well, maybe. No. It's a 100%.   They're saying that if you if you are not running your own like, if in every single wallet that does not do non custodial whatever,   if they are like a collection of people, which they can deem a, quote, unquote, enterprise so if this is an enterprise that was created in order to run a noncustodial   wallet and, you know, not to I won't name names, but you can think of a bunch of different names of wallet teams right now in the space. Yeah. All those, if they didn't require you to do KYC AML,   according to the government's arguments, especially in the Tornado Cash response, this is where a big part of that's coming from because this is very similar. According to the government argument, that wallet team is running an unlicensed money transmission business. Custody or not, I mean, it's black and white in the argument. They said custody does not matter. So   point I'm getting at is   we are very socially compartmentalized   on Twitter, but the enemy, the adversary,   is attacking   at multiple different angles,   a very widespread attack. And and I just wanna make sure or try my best anyway to make sure that this fight and and the understanding of what's going on makes it outside of our little bubble that normally   we only stay in. You know, we all know about all the tools and all the fights and all the arguments and all the privacy stuff. Like, we all know all that. But outside, they don't give a shit. They don't know anything about it. And so I wanna make sure, a, that they know about it, and, b, I wanna make sure that,   unfortunately,   it's I think it's only gonna be a small amount. But I wanna make sure that the people that actually do   care about   Bitcoin being a self custodial tool that they wake up. Because a lot of people are not gonna give a shit. I'm just gonna tell you right now. A lot of people are not gonna give a shit. As long as they get to keep their dollar exchange,   it is what it is. So we need as many people as we can, and so that's why I you know, we wanna do shows like yours. People would that have a little bit of reset can maybe get outside of this little circle,   And and, you know, we want everybody to see the riding on the wall because it's very, very serious. It's getting very serious right now. Yeah. Well,  

[00:20:06] Unknown:

this show will continue to be covering   everything that we can, and our audience is probably more specifically geared towards self custody and privacy than a lot of the other shows. So it may be,   won't reach that much further out of that, but I think, Zelco, you touched on it earlier is, like, anytime you can get on a stage   at any conference,   anywhere   where you have   Bitcoiners,   people who are there who own Bitcoin   is, like,   how do you   explain to them   that this is important? Because   as you said,   I don't think that they care, but I think they don't care because they don't understand.   I think that there's this view of, like, well, it doesn't really matter because the value's gonna go up, and that's what they care about. And it's like,   maybe it wouldn't actually because it's not really fucking useful if it's just controlled,   and you can't really use it how you wanna use it. And, b, that's not really what this thing is supposed to be about. And so it's like, how do you cut that message through to them so that they start actually caring   and worrying about protecting what they have or think they have?  



[00:21:18] Unknown:

Well, yeah. And the funny thing is that a lot of these people,   like, the argument for the longest time it used to be about KYC buying KYC or not,   but, you know, with the principle being your identity linked to your Bitcoin,   which is the ultimate goal, right, of the state. They wanna know where all these coins come from, go, and and everything else. And   the old,   like, counter about no KYC versus KYC was that they would be like, oh, well, we'll just just HODL until the IRS is dead. This isn't like Yeah. Be like this. That doesn't work. Like, that doesn't work because the moment that they get somebody I mean, they went after Roger Ver for his Bitcoin, like, for tax evasion. Right? So, like, people can hate him all they want. But I mean, like, that's that could be anybody. You know what I mean? And,   it's that mentality   that I think is where people really need to, like, wake up. People need to wake up to what the real threat is and what is it gonna mean. What is Bitcoin   if you   can't properly self custody   or you can't make, you know, censorship resistant   peer to peer transactions   with anybody around the world. What does that look like? Right? Like, what is Bitcoin   if you can't do that stuff without being, you know, synonymous   and using it like cash? And for all those people that never used it, like, I get it. Like, I think we all started that way. But,   ultimately,   right, whether it's you didn't want to pay a bunch of taxes,   or you didn't want you know, you don't wanna pay that capital gains, you know, but,   ultimately, this just becomes a stock. Right? This just becomes something to speculate over and try to make money. And, like, every podcaster, every influencer,   every fucking   wallet person, everyone that built anything in this ecosystem,   whether it's layered 1, layered 2, fucking,   I don't care.  

Everybody should be concerned because none of those tools matter   if you're not able to make censorship free transactions.   If you don't have privacy, like, even basic privacy,   basic transactional privacy,   This is like like it's different than, you know, spending something with a credit card. If I spent use a credit card or if I   use a debit card and I I buy something, right, that whatever I buy, right, like, that company does not can't see how much money I had prior to that. Can't see how much was in the account. Bitcoin can do that. Right? Bitcoin has that.   So you're talking about having less privacy than in the fiat system, minus cash. Right? Obviously, cash is king.  

But   that's just basics.   Like, at that point, why why would you even use Bitcoin? Why would any of those tools matter Yep. If if you can't do basics, you know?  

[00:24:05] Unknown:

I've said for years, and I've made several several tweets of that same thing. Like, if the goal like, if it's just about the USD exchange rate, honestly, like, a lot of people, I felt like, should've just been buying, like, s and p 500 call options,   you know, like,   a long expiration   s and p 500 call options and just be done with it because you're gonna get a lot of the same action out of it, honestly, and you're not really looking for anything. But now that the ETF is out, well, there's really no reason for people to buy Bitcoin if they,   are just looking for price exposure. And so I think there's a really good chance that   a lot of people that if these cases are lost and this   trajectory continues on where it's I I mean, it's I don't know how anybody can look at it and think it's anything other than an attack on self custody and, you know, private transacting. And it's just that's what it is,   obviously. So you gotta think then if that's what it is,   why are they doing it? What's the goal? What's the end goal?  

So, I mean, you don't have to be a genius to figure this stuff out. I am I am far from 1. I'm, you know, a a a knuckle dragger like the vast majority of the rest of us, but I can see that.   And so if that's the case,   a lot of people, when they see that and   legal threats start happening, and then they turn around while they're scrolling through Twitter on their phone, you know, at the house, and and they see these, oh my god. They arrested these guys? Like, no. They like, they're actually in jail, and they turn around and look at your family and your children sitting there and your wife that depends on you or I don't know. Probably a lot of people got husbands. But   whenever you're you're look there, then it'll be like, okay. Well, yeah, I can't take that chance. I can't take that chance. All I wanted was some was to try to make some money.  

Fuck that. Okay? So boom. Then I'm just I'm selling it back. I can buy ETF, and I get my price exposure. Like, what's the problem? I don't have to worry about any of this. So a lot of people, like, really and truly   don't give a shit. And that's why the message doesn't propagate further than what it was because people don't care. They're it's not what they're here for. These are the sailor types. The sailors types   literally argue against using Bitcoin as any sort of medium medium of exchange. You know? It's a negative   to them. So, you know, it's very all this stuff is very clear. And the problem is just that, you know, for me anyway,   I just can't I refuse   to just turn around now and walk away and just throw my hands up and say, ah, well, we gave it a shot   and and just be like, you know, ah, well, fuck it. And, you know, hope hope these guy hope for the best for them, you know, for these guys that are locked up, that are not gonna be, you know, facing a quarter century in a federal prison in the United States. You know, best of luck to you guys. I can't do that. A,   because I actually believe the things that I have said for years and and been doing for years. Like, I really believe it. I believe in the power of   this thing, Bitcoin, and how it can empower individuals   and, you know, give them the power to do the things that they want to on their own terms. I truly believe in it. So I don't wanna walk away for that, but now you've got my friends in a cage.  

These guys are my friends, and   I do not throw that word around lightly. So I there's no way I can just, you know, turn around and walk away now. So I wanna get the message out to make sure that people understand this,   and I wanna make sure that these guys are not are not forgotten   because there was   a lot of years and a lot of progress in the Bitcoin space happened   because of this team,   specifically. And now whether they did it or whether they inspired someone else to do it or somebody else built off of their ideas or whether they took somebody's ideas that was just an idea and they actually made it happen, which is what happened with several things,   you know, that the space was progressed   an enormous amount with these guys. And so they deserve to be to be honored, not only just with being remembered, but they deserve to for to for us to have their back in this fight  

[00:28:16] Unknown:

now more than ever. I would say they actually created their own culture   within the Bitcoin world.   I would always know   pretty much if I'm speaking to someone who's a samurai user   that they lean a certain way that they don't think it's okay to sense the transactions,   that they think it's retarded to be wanking off over Sabre.   There's so much that you would know from someone who's actually using   Bitcoin and actually understands what this thing's about, and it did create this   real cool   pushback culture,   which   was   very refreshing   compared to the way that the rest of it slid because the trajectory of Bitcoin, Twitter, and everyone that I see at conferences and everything else is   cringe worthy to the point I physically feel ill looking at it. Like, it's so   fucking   like, they're going around calling everyone Fiat   and doing their little videos and selfies and wallet of Satoshi bullshit and   thinking they're saving the world. And it's like   it couldn't actually be further from that. What they're doing is actually pushing the one thing   that can really help   towards   bankers   and control   and seizure   and   everything else that we don't want, you know, without that little group pushing back, it'd be nothing. And without it, as you said, what the fuck are we gonna have? Because   looking outside of Bitcoin for a second, like, I don't think anyone can look at what's going on in the world and go, yeah. This is good.  

Especially if you have kids, like, yeah.   Life's gonna be better for my kids than me. I mean Oh,  

[00:30:01] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. I don't know how you could think it. No. There's there's there's no way. You you you you'd have to be asleep,   like, truly asleep and to not see how how things are are going and progressing. And it's scary for everyone, not just Bitcoiners. But in the Bitcoin space,   as you've mentioned,   the loss of this set of tools in particular   is, like, since I've been in Bitcoin, this is by far   the largest the biggest, like, setback or loss, I would say, for, quote, unquote, the Bitcoin space, you know, for, like, the entire thing. This is by far the biggest thing. Like, people were talking about Taproot and Segwit, and it enabled ordinals, and ordinals have messed up all this, and it's spamming the chain, and, like, people would act like that was a bad thing. I was like, nothing really happened   while I've been in Bitcoin on this size or a level to really, I feel like, set the whole thing back. Like, it set the whole thing back. And   so there's a couple of different reactions. The first reaction is people just fold, you know, and and and start, trying to distance himself from the United States. We saw Wasabi   instantly   cut the United States off, and then, what, a few days later, announced that they'll be winding the entire service down. Right? Shocking. You yeah. Who didn't see that coming? Right?  

And so,   but but, you know, I'm not even gonna I'm not even gonna hate on them at this time right now as far as the legal shit goes because we've always known they were they were on the compliance side way more than on the Cypherpunk side. That's been evident   since day 1 for anybody that's paid attention because you know if you ever use their tool that you'd have to read through some legal documents before you use it. So that's been evident forever.   Nothing's shocking there. So that's one option. And the Lightning providers, they shut down. Other option, okay. Now well, now boom. Okay. Well, everybody's just gonna use join market. It's just fine. I mean, that's a coin joint tool too. We'll we'll just I'll use join market.   Listen. Again,   not the time for, like, mudslinging the shit. I'm not hating on joint market. I think it's an excellent tool. I'd like it it again moved this space forward. It was one of those things that was, very interesting and cool, and, like, it's still kind of interesting and cool to play with. But it is not a zero link coin joint. It's not what we had. It's a regression.  

Now it's it's got the decentralization   working for it. Alright? So it has   a a a point up as far as that goes. But the quality of the mix,   and the the liquidity enforcements and the structure is just not there. So it's that's a regression.   Right? And so are we gonna   settle on that and just be like, well, that's that's good enough?   I I got some probably unfortunate news. Again,   I'll preface this by saying I'm not a lawyer, but I do have a little bit of sense, and I do have some reading comprehension ability.   And when I read through these government arguments and stuff, I feel like the maker,   in in a joint market transaction,   It fits the government's descriptions.  

Yeah. You know? So, like, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna settle there? And then the other option so you've got one folded up, pack it in. You got the other option is just regress back. Just use use join market. We'll be done with it. It's good then.   Or, well, let's just go off and make this totally new thing.   Now that has some merit to it, in my opinion. I'm not gonna act like, you know, coming up with an entirely new protocol is, you know, just it's just nothing. It's something that has to be done if we're gonna have privacy on Bitcoin.   The problem going forward is now the government is forcing   everybody   basically, to act like criminals.  

You're forcing   everybody to assume   that whatever they're doing is illegal,   because there's no, like, coherent argument. You can't   there the law doesn't they went against fence in guidance and said fence in guidance from 2019 that everybody in this space has been running off of. The DOJ said, yeah. That shit doesn't matter. It does it literally it's just guidance. It doesn't mean anything.   What are we supposed to do? So now if even if you do want to, like,   build a new tool or or whatever as a developer in the Bitcoin space, there's such a chilling effect on it that   I fear   either people would just not do it because it's not worth the risk. Right? Because, you know, once you once you see people start dropping, like, you see the guys that you've looked up to that have been carrying the torch, you see them go down, it changes things. And people can act like it doesn't if they want, but it does. It changes things. It makes it very real. So I fear either they won't do it at all, or   that   they will   do it in such a way where they're so fearful   that, like, the the tool is just it might as well not exist. You know what I mean? Like, if I build something amazing and cool, but I have to be so, like, secret about it that nobody else knows about it, well, that doesn't help the Bitcoin space either. You know what I mean? I'm just running it in my house. So it's such a chilling effect. It's such a major loss for the entire space without people even realizing it that I'm very, very concerned.  



[00:35:29] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I saw it. I was just thinking about how it makes everyone feel like criminals, and that kind of resign resonated with me.   It, like, prior to this event, you know, I mean, like, the the repositories   were kind of a big   a big thing. Right? Like, being free and open source, everyone was like, oh, cool. We'll just someone will just fork it and then do it. Right? And that sounds great in theory.   And ironically, like, they self hosted on GitLab because they were worried about   Microsoft taking down their GitHub.   So this is just kinda funny. But,   you know, now it's like, okay, well, like you were saying, well, if you continue to develop and you want to work on a privacy tool, right, now you have to do all these extra steps.  

Now you have to take   every bit of security, every bit of privacy that you can possibly take. You have to do it now. You know, if you want to do this, you gotta do it. And,   yeah,   it it really does make you feel like what you're doing is wrong, which is   fucking stupid. It's been proven, at least in the US, right, that software and code is   protected by the first amendment,   which,   you know,   nowadays too doesn't even fucking matter, you know, which is probably, as a red blooded American, this is one of the the sadder points to really think about. Is it, like,   you know, how much do do those rights even actually matter anymore? You know, if they want somebody, they're gonna fucking just do it anyways. But so you have to operate in that kind of adversarial environment. Right? And it's the sad reality.  

You know, that's stuff that I know me and my guys have been trying to figure out is how, you know, how do we   continue running? The the node software has been proven to be safe, and Mhmm. It's kind of the one part that   is   less risky, but at the same time, for how long? Right? To how long do you, until you have to be a self registered   you know, node runner. It's just I'd rather take the extra precautions now. And, so that's one thing that we've been doing there. And there are some, like, cool protocols and cool different stuff to decentralize and to make, you know, make the privacy part better and protect yourself, protect others. But it's it is wild to think that, like, you could just be trying to write software and write something cool, and now now it's a crime. And   on that, I also think it's super fucking around. I got now it's like I'm twisting into this, like, kind of fucking angry mode because   so there there's, like, operating systems. There's different things, like, privacy based or, you know, there's some there there's an operating system. I don't like, that you can find that's, like it's designed for people who who are hackers, whether white hat, black hat, whatever.  

It has all these tools that are built into it that are hacking tools. And and it it trips me out because the crimes   that   samurai   is being associated with or a conspiracy   that their money laundered.   The criminals' money   is the crime. They're not getting the criminals. They're not getting the people who, quote, unquote, broke the law. Right? The the the initial offenders. They're shutting down a service. Right? They're shutting down something   that, what was it, 95%   of people were not associated with the funds that they were talking about. Like, 95% of liquidity had nothing to do with what they noted. So, you know, that should be your sign. That should be your sign. They don't give a fuck about the people who broke their laws.   They're trying to make a new law   against software   that is for everyone. Right? Sending a message. They're send exactly. They're sending a fucking message. And, really, it comes down to that point in, like,   you know, that it was the hardest part the last couple weeks of going through these,   emotional roller coasters of, like,   you know,   as diverter said, right, like, they are our friends, our very, very close friends. You know, like, I looked at samurai like a mentor, and with them being gone, you know, it is. Like, my world, quite literally, my Bitcoin world was flipped upside down in a matter of minutes. And   if anything,   you go through these roller coasters of emotions, and eventually, you get to this point where you're like, fuck it.  

I refuse   to allow something so unjust,   something so criminal.   You don't need to be a, you know, libertarian   to get behind this. Mhmm. You just have to be a person who's for justice. Like like, what are, like, freedoms are actually supposed to be about? And you have to look at them and, like, did they solve any crimes by what they're doing?   No. Are they gonna be able to? No. Because you know what's gonna happen? All these people, instead of using Bitcoin and then, you know, if they did Whirlpool,   instead of Whirlpooling or using whatever privacy, like, crypto privacy tool, they're gonna use something else. They're gonna use something else that's already out there that hasn't been stopped yet. And then once that gets stopped, they'll just move to something else. Like, they're not they're not stopping fucking anything.   Like, are we just gonna fucking fold? Like, are are like, are we as Bitcoiners, are we just going to and this is why it's a message for everyone.  

Do you really   like, go read the white papers. Just go read the abstract one more time and tell yourself to is like, are you willing to let it go? Are you willing to just say, you know what? They that's not what it is anymore. Satoshi's,   you know, like, doing this revolutionary   technology. All the little buzzwords that the people have been parroting for the last   fucking   however many what what year, man? The fuck. 16 years?   All that stuff. Are we willing to just say, hey. You know what? Let's just a speculative asset, bro. Like, that's all it is. Because I can't I can't, like, just sit and do nothing.   You know? It's so it's so hard. And so, you know, for the for for Samurais, for T Dev, like, you know, we need to fight. We need to to do everything we can, because I know one thing's for damn sure, they're they're gonna   fight. I know that they knew that this day was inevitable,   or at least I think I think TDEB had a tweet that said,   like, said something about it. You know, something about,   the murder of my nose. Frozen pros. Yeah. Yeah. The the   the prison piece. Right? Like, didn't think you were doing something right if you didn't get the threat. Right?  

Their mindset, they knew. They know. They're prepared. I would imagine, like, they've probably ran through   how that they would handle this day if it ever came.  

[00:41:45] Unknown:

So the thing that's aggravating is   knowing that, like,   they tried to do it right rather than you know, it it   as I talked about earlier,   this tool these things, like, could have been built and done, like, completely anonymously,   and, like, you know, assuming that you're criminals and acting all shady and doing all this stuff, that's a possibility that could have happened. That's not at all what samurai were trying to do. Samurai   believes still believes, I still believe, are following the law   and not breaking the law. And that's because we were going off   of what guidance was coming from the government. So whenever they, you know, Finsen comes out to 2013   and makes it very clear that if you're not taking custody, you're not money transmitter.  

2019, they reiterate that. All of a sudden, in 24, the DOJ comes in and just completely steps over it and says, no. Actually,   all that stuff that they said is not true. Self custody, yeah, you do not have to have control of the assets. You do not have to take custody in order to be considered a money transmitter. They're using terms like by any and all means. So if you do any so that means if you operate a server, if you if you get a VPS, alright, and you're you're running a VPS somewhere and you put a Bitcoin note on it and you let somebody else hook up to it and, you know, receive and transmit Bitcoin according to them, Like, you that's that you're that's a service. If you like, make any sort of, like, name put put a name on it, and you'll call yourselves   whatever. You know? The the the awesomely great Bitcoin wallet. Well, now the awesomely great Bitcoin wallet is a is a money transmitter even if you never take custody.  

So it's crazy. The overstep is is ridiculous.   But   the guys were   anonymous to most people on Twitter.   You know, most people didn't know   who these guys were, but, you know, there were plenty of people behind the scenes that knew who these guys were because they weren't trying to build, like, an illegal   out of the back of the woods, like, you know, in the jungles of Panama   company and, like, stay hidden forever and all that. That was not what was going on. They were following the law, and it had made you can go back to several blog posts and podcasts   and interviews and whatever you want, and you'll see them saying the same thing, primarily Sam Raul, because T Dev didn't do a lot of appearances, but   primarily Samra was saying the same thing over and over. We're not breaking the law. We're following the law. We have lawyers that are that that look at this stuff, that are looking at the guidance. They understand the law. They say we're not breaking the law. We don't have to enforce KYC. Why so why would we? We're not taking custody.  

A trusted   brand in this ecosystem   that offers privacy, that is not doing it outside of the law, that is not even, like, trying to sneak around and do some sneaky stuff outside of the law behind you know, that's there's nothing none of that's alleged. You know what I mean? It's not even that, like, they got busted for doing something other that nobody else knew about. No. No.  

[00:44:55] Unknown:

It's a very good point. They have been out in the open with a crystal clear message for forever since I've started in Bitcoin. Like, they've always been consistent.   Yeah. They haven't had their names out there, obviously, because it's dumb to do that just for for upset reasons. But   Right. They're not scratching around in the dark, doing something criminal. They're trying to build and did build the best product   available,   which helped lots of people. And when you talk about this, like,   roller coaster,   I was thinking back to our previous conversation where you said, you know, know your adversary.  

And you were saying, you know, they own the ink. They own the pens. They have the hands that hold the pens. They have the juries. They have the judges. They have everything.   And and that emotional roller coaster, even though I care deeply about this stuff, I have to admit, like, it caught me for probably   2 days, 3 days. I was going, fucking hell. You know, I've been doing this for, like, 6 years, 7 years and doing the pod. And, you know, it's so much work. And, you know, is it worth doing? And, you know, they're gonna come after me. And everything I've ever had has gone through   this tool and I was, like, panicking. And then and then I was like, hang on a minute.  

I actually don't think   I've done anything fucking wrong. Right. In fact, I've not just not done nothing wrong.   What I'm doing is fighting against something that is truly wrong Mhmm. Which is to take away people's freedom and their privacy.   And and then this roller coaster started to go, oh, okay. Now I'm climbing back up again. No. Hold on. We are on the right side of history. I know we are. Right. It's not like a difficult thing to work out when you actually sit and think about it. You're like, should people be able to do the shit they've been doing forever? Yeah. They should be. Who's in the wrong here? Oh, it's the people who are trying to take people's fucking freedom and ability to save and everything else that they're doing. It's like it's disgusting.   Then you think about it. You go, no. These people are not criminals. They're heroes.  

Yeah. The tools that they've built are not for criminals. Like you said, it's, like, 95% of people are like people like us. I've got some Bitcoin.   I use it. I don't think I'm a bad person. I just use tools so that not everyone knows what I have when I spend it and use it because that's fucking stupid.   Because Bitcoin is trackable and because people can see when I if I'm gonna use a large UTXO to pay my plumber, my sink's fucking leaking. Well, guess what? When he comes next time, if he sees that I've got it's come from a large UTXO, my fucking prices are gonna go up. It's like basic shit.   Yeah. It's not criminals.  



[00:47:26] Unknown:

No. And,   you know, by them   trying to do all this stuff all this correct way and   still getting taken out, then that puts such a chill on everybody else that, you know, people are   are terrified to even say that they're going to work on something with privacy. And now and and it it it's gonna continue to get worse. I don't see any reason why it it all of a sudden turns around and gets better, you know, if these guys   don't win this case. And that's another thing that is very important to not forget is that they have not lost yet. Like, this is not   I'm aware of the federal,   United States federal   government's   conviction rate, And I'm aware that it's an uphill battle to to win against,   when, you know, when the on the other side of that verses, it says US government.  

That's a problem.   But   people win. And as people win, and especially when   they're not guilty, and they haven't done anything wrong, and there's a clear,   concise argument that can be made for it, I think normies can understand this argument.   There's not gonna be a ton of, like, chainalysis   that has to go on that they have to understand how all these transaction flows go. They're that's really not what this case is gonna be about. I don't think, anyway. I don't see why it would be. I I think that it's gonna be an argument that the everyday citizen, I believe, is gonna be able to understand,   you know, whenever you're talking about   of course, obviously, the government's gonna try to paint them as, you know, they're just trying they knowingly   built this thing so that   criminals would come use it and get away with it. Well, that's obviously not correct, though. That's obviously not correct. And there's several places that you can even make that argument. Like, even in the government's own indictment and paperwork, like, they even say that the incentive   of Whirlpool, the incentive structure is to keep people remixing.  

Who the fuck builds a tool for criminals   to launder their money to get out, but yet at the same time, the incentive is specifically set up to keep you in it? That doesn't even make logical sense, bro. It it makes no sense. They haven't lost the fight. That's number 1. If they do though,   there's no reason I see for the government to let off the gas pedal. And so   what are we now looking at next? It's, you know, as far as Bitcoin goes, I think it was pretty obvious that they'll stay on a course to   making anybody that self custody have to do KYC AML at the very least. That would be the next step before,   I guess, the inevitable, you know, you you just can't self custody anymore. You have to hold it at any exchange. But,   you know, people that are privacy seekers right now,   what are we looking for at people I know people that are going to like Monero. I know we've got a lot of people that are saying, oh, they just should shoulda should've been using Monero the whole time, bro, and all this stuff. Well, again,   I got some news for you. I think   if these guys lose this case,   especially,   but possibly even if they don't, especially in places like the EU,   I don't see how Monero is not on the chopping block. I don't see how   that's just gonna be continued to and again, it's not a knock against Monero. It's actually an endorsement. It's because the thing works. It does what it's supposed to do.  

So the Whirlpool worked. It did what it's supposed to do. All these tools, if they actually work and they actually start getting use, real use, and people really start actually getting that power back, and they're taking it away from the government,   they're not just gonna let it happen.   We said this, over and over and over. I can't I still can't believe people don't   or or argue about it. This is not just gonna be like, oh, well, if the fiat system collapsed, I guess we'll try this Bitcoin thing. No, bro. They're gonna scratch and claw and pull for every single piece of power that they can maintain.   And so,   Monero, I think, is   especially if they lose this case,   but possibly even if they don't, Monero, I think, we could see get outlawed   pretty pretty pretty soon, especially in the EU, where I'm pretty sure they already wanna make it just completely illegal.  

Governments are already saying they don't even sell back   to the public. They don't even sell the Monero that they confiscate from criminals and stuff. They don't even sell it back. Like, they option off the Bitcoin. The government says they don't do that with Monero because they don't want it back on the streets. What does that tell you about what they think about it? I don't see how there's like, that's   that's not what's up next. It's obvious on in the path. Like, it's a clear path. If you can't see it by now, you'll never see it.   I hope that we can get a win in this case. It's gonna take a lot of time, energy, and money.  

So I hope that Bitcoiners   and companies in the space and, you know, everybody that is able is ready to stand up and help samurai wallet and fight for them the way that they have been fighting on behalf of the whole space for years. And I hope that we see a lot of money and donations flow into these lawyers to let them have everything that they need to put force the best argument that we can. Because if we can get a win here,   we can derail   that path at least for a little while, at least a little bit. It's not gonna stop them completely,   but we need a win, man. We need a win. We we keep taking these losses over and over, especially in the privacy area. You know, the tornado cash guy just got convicted the other day, almost 6 years gone. Like, we can win this case, I believe. I believe there are several places where they're blatantly, obviously wrong.  

So we need to make sure that as soon as we're able, as soon as the funding, the legal funding, legal situation is worked out to where we can donate to the legal fund, I encourage everyone to do that. I, for sure, and I'm sure I know you all will too, will be blasting that out as soon as it's available.  

[00:53:19] Unknown:

A 100%.  

[00:53:21] Unknown:

Yeah. So I don't want people   it's very easy to be so discouraged right now, and you just just kinda give up. And I fight with this, like, legitimately every day myself   right now. Like, it's it's it's very   difficult   time,   but I just I really wanna drive home. We have not lost this case yet. Like, these guys are not just completely done for. Don't write them off. Don't just assume that it's done. Don't just forget about, you know, Whirlpool and all the spending tools and all the stuff that they built. Like, don't just don't just walk on past it and assume that everything's dead now because it's not.  

[00:53:57] Unknown:

Yeah. And I and I would just add,   the legal   fund well, like, even today as we're recording, I've been trying to keep up with, with one of the lawyers just to find out about the legal fund and such.   It should be out. So if you need to edit this and put in the, you know, the actual link, you can do that, Max. But   it's gonna be available here in the next day or so, hopefully. And, yeah, we're gonna need all the support. That's been their big thing. The great part about the situation that they're in, though, is that in the, I guess, the sector of, you know, law enforcement or court,   This is a a high profile case.  

And, so with high profile cases comes the best lawyers who want to come and, you know, take it and add it to their stuff. You know, so they have a lot of really great options right now, but with great options, obviously, comes a lot of money.   So for all those people who are out there and they're wondering, right, like, what can you actually do? You know, if you if you valued any part of privacy, if you valued any part of any of the tools that they ever made, or even if you just looked at it afar and just said, like, I'm glad that they're doing something. And I know that and I know that they're out there. I've talked to people from   completely opposite sides of the Bitcoin spectrum, if you will. You know, from KYC exchanges all the way to, you know, the the guy who only HODLs and puts it straight onto his hardware wallet. But they all come up and have and are always saying how much they appreciate everything. Right? And they know they appreciate the tools that we're that we're making. They haven't taken a step yet, but they appreciate everything. If you're even one of those people, take some time and, like, actually think about doing this, like, do the donation, and and it's gonna be a legitimate   defense fund. Right? So you'd be able to write them off on your taxes and all that kind of fun stuff. But,   realistically,   yeah, the I mean, like, they're gonna need it. They're gonna need every ounce of this.  

And so,   you know, this is the time. Like, this that's the move. If you don't if you don't know how to contribute, if you don't know what you wanna do, you don't wanna take the risk, like, at a minimum, you know, try to give something.   Not everyone is Bitcoin rich. Not or crypto rich, whatever you wanna call it. Right? Not everyone has a ton to give. And I I'm in that boat, but I'm still gonna be doing it. Alright? Like, we're gonna be even on the run inside, we're gonna make sure that we build in something so that people can can easily donate to them. Because, you know, as this as the samurai community, that's that's what we do. We take care of each other.   And I think that's that's another kind of point. Right? Like, a lot of people join. A lot of people became samurai people, not because, you know, yeah, they had great tools, but the community was something special.  

It's something where, hey, this is, like, this is the time. Like, we rally together, we fight together, all the battles that have been on Twitter and and all that other stuff. But, like, this is the time to take care of those who who led the way for us. And ultimately, like, this is this is attack on on everything.   Everything that we care about, this is it. So and it's time whether it's money or otherwise, like, it's not over. I know they don't think it's over. Even if it's not money,  

[00:57:01] Unknown:

if you're in that boat, it doesn't mean do nothing. You can still share links. You can still talk to other people about it. You can still just remind everyone   what this fight's about. And as you say, it's not lost.   You know, I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, this must have been pretty similar   to   trying to outlaw encryption and everything that went on there. Like, it was a pretty similar kind of battle. It's a battle against privacy of citizens.   And   I'd imagine at the time, they probably thought, fuck. How are we gonna win this? We're going up against the government. How are we gonna win this? Like, this is serious.   This is over. But guess what? It wasn't, and the world's a better place for it.  



[00:57:44] Unknown:

Right. Yeah.   And   even as bleak as it was, you know, those guys   you know, what did they do? They printed out encryption on T shirts and in books and and, you know, wore it around. Like, they were   actively, like, pushing back, in the ways that they could. Now there's,   you know, it's very similar as far as, like, the ideals and and the attack and all that. It's a little bit different in the actual, you you know, what what can we do? Because you don't wanna you don't wanna do something   super silly right now, especially,   and just all of a sudden now now   you're, like, trying to push back by   doing something that they are deciding is illegal at the time. Like, if you can't tell, this very clearly to me is legislation   through prosecution.  

So all they're doing basically is just circumventing   the legislative process   in the United States. So instead of going through the whole process like they should have to in order to make thing things a law   or, you know, whatever,   Basically, just overstepping it, get gonna get an arrest on these guys, try to get them prosecuted,   and then that will set the precedent,   legally speaking. And it's essentially just just a route around. So I think that's very clear, but this that's also what makes it right now such a dangerous time is because   literally, the DOJ is overstepping defense and blatantly saying that, basically, they don't care that they are. Like, that doesn't mean anything.  

So when you've got these government agents that now DOJ overstep FinCEN, but if you look at FAFSA,   the the FATF,   the other unelected, you know, officials that just write guidance on whatever and call it whatever they wanna call it, make whatever they want illegal just on at, again, at the stroke of a pen. The DOJ actually kinda does fit in with the, like, the FAFSA guidance, but nobody's been going off of FAFSA guidance, especially in the United States. It's been off of the FAFSA guidance,   which doesn't match. So nothing matches up. Everything and that's on purpose. Everything's done like this purposely. So the point is   people shouldn't   fall victim to believing that it's just because these guys were particularly   bad or were doing something particularly wrong. It's not because   of anything really other than   this is a selective prosecution   so that it can set a precedent,   chill the rest of the industry,   let Bitcoin continue to be more and more quote, unquote, legitimized.  

Alright? It's more and more integrated into the financial   system, into the legacy financial system. Like, they're slowly and methodically,   step by step, just taking Bitcoin apart. They're deconstructing everything that makes it anything   special.   And so   that's what this is. It's not that these guys were you know, just because they had some some spicy tweets on Twitter. You know, as I've said in a previous tweet, you only do that. You only, like, run your mouth like that when   you know you're not breaking the law. You know what I mean? That's like one of those old sayings or whatever that I always used to hear growing up was you wanna make sure that you don't break the law when you're breaking the law.   And so basically, what that meant was when you're doing something that, like, skirts on the edge of what people would consider legal, and that's kind of what samurai like it was legal, but, you know, we're skirting right on that line purposefully because this is legal. When you're doing that, don't also jaywalk.  

Right? You don't don't jaywalk while you're you're doing this stuff. Don't do something silly that gives them an end. So   samurai, you know, saying some spicy things on Twitter and saying, you know, they'll never do k y c, and it's it's an attack, and people are welcome to use the service. All those things would only be said by people that truly and really believe they're not doing anything wrong. You can't this is you can't come get me. You know what I mean? If you're actually, like, a criminal doing some shit doing some wrong shit, like, you're not on there running your mouth and doing all that. You know?   So that's another thing. Like, don't don't let this don't let the narratives that are gonna float around because there's gonna be people, especially on, and I'm talking about in Bitcoin. There's gonna be people, like, down the legacy side that are gonna be, like, you know, well, this was always gonna be illegal. I'd already told you about these guys, you know, this whole mixing stuff. Like, you should never do this. We call them in the UK. Basically.  

Yeah. Don't don't let them sway you into believing that, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it's just this one single company that needs these 2 guys in particular because they were particularly,   exceptionally bad and did all this stuff exceptionally wrong. No. No. No. No. No. That's not what's happening. So don't don't be swayed by that. Understand what the fight is. Understand. Read the arguments yourself.   And just, you know, again, don't give up. Don't don't let the because it's a multipronged attack. It's It's gonna be narratives. It's gonna be law. It's gonna be like, this is a nation state, essentially, a nation state attack.   You think it only comes from one way. That's not the case.  

Do what you need to do to stay, like, energized. That's what I'm trying to have to do. It's like, do what you need to do to keep   your   mind and body healthy, whether that be, you know, whatever. Take a run. Take a walk. Do some push ups. Pull whatever. Do something. Keep yourself engaged and energized.   Don't let yourself fall down into the, like, the doldrums in the pits that are be completely black pill. It's very easy to do right now. And just continue remember that this fight is not over. It's far from over. It's actually just beginning, so don't don't give in now. That's good advice.  

[01:03:19] Unknown:

What we've been trying to cover as well here is   what people can do to   people who actually use Bitcoin.   What can they do   for now? And, otherwise, people just shit themselves. We'll start making mistakes, so we're trying to give people options.   There aren't many. They're not as good, but there are some options. And it's important people don't just bitch out and say, oh, fuck this. Let's just pack it in and,   you strike or some bullshit.  

[01:03:45] Unknown:

Yeah. They definitely shouldn't be giving up on using the tools. Right? Like, the good thing is that SamRite wallets, the wallet app still works. You know, you still can run it with, you know, your own node and still get some of the spending tools features. Right? Like a Stonewall,   Kahoots.   Diverter might know better. But either way, at least you can have something, which is something is better than nothing.   You know, be smart with your UTXOs.   If you have a bunch of post mixed, then, you know, keep them and, you know, use them individually.   I mean, that was always supposed to be the game plan. Use them individually if you can. You know, run a node. Like, this is a good time to get hardware and run your own node and just start being sovereign. Start being as sovereign as you can and figuring out as much as you can. Have you guys got stuck again?  

No. So we are already,   just about to announce. I I have a blog post coming out, but by the time this comes out, it'll be out. So I'll I'll drop it. We are already in the works for   transitioning to,   like, finishing out our hardware that we have and then turning our our focus into our v three stuff and eventually getting to, like, an x86 platform. Mhmm. But we'll be supporting   we'll be supporting all boards. And when I say supporting, I mean, the software is gonna run on all the boards.   Whether we test all of them, I don't know. We'll at least be testing x86   and be testing on,   on Tontos.  

We'll continue to support those, like, officially tested and supported. But, you know, with the shake up,   we   unfortunately,   not everyone could risk, you know, the association, I guess, despite us being community a community team that's not affiliated with Samurai,   officially.   And   so, you know, that that shakeup's been tough, and we're transitioning   all of our code bases and all that other stuff. So right now, like, we're not gonna be selling that stuff. What kind of, like, model that we what kind of business model that we shift to in the future. That's,   right now, that's up in the air, but my main focus is,   1, taking care of the existing customer, like, users, like,   being able to easily   migrate to a 2 terabyte and and that kind of stuff. That's all.  

We're finishing up the last bit of this. We're about to have a release,   hopefully, this weekend.   Weekend of 20th, we'll be pushing out a release with the new code bases and stuff like that, and then   finish up the 2 terabyte backup stuff and all that. So people can start to migrate, then we'll go from there.   It's, like, ironic because   we really were planning on   stopping sales coming up anyways,   but it it looks like it was like we got too scared to do anything, and that's that's really yes. We took precautions, but this was part of the plan for what we were gonna do. And I lay it all out in the blog post. So when that drops,   I'll send it to you. Hopefully, I can go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, it it lays out what we're trying to do, and some other thoughts and all that stuff. So it'll be good for people to check out. And, yeah, I'm I'm excited for the future. I just,   crossing my fingers, hoping someone   forks off and and we get something. Someone works on a privacy tool, you know, like, I mean, it's still you can still use Samura Wallet, you know, you can still get the APK. You can still use it. I use I I still use it. I don't know how to use Bitcoin without it at this point.  

But   it's for sure something that we're gonna continue to support. And if something else comes out there, then can we find out? Like, hey. Look, let's let's keep it. Let's keep this train rolling. But until then, you still at least have the best   Bitcoin while it's still available with Samura wallet.  

[01:07:24] Unknown:

I think this is gonna be one of those times when   open source is really validated.   You know, I know ZELCO in particular has fought   pretty, openly,   about, you know, open source and the the ethos around open source and what it means and, you know, what it means as far as competition and things like that. But, you know, it means a lot in this sort of scenario too when   somebody or a company   just, essentially disappears or gets wiped out. Like, that code, they didn't wipe that code. Yeah. They took down theirs, like, self hosted GitLab, but that's been up for years years. Tons of people have that code. You know what I mean? It's untethered. How many how many hundreds of thousands of people have downloaded that code? That code's not gone anywhere.   Yeah. You know what I mean? And so open source   is very important for   a lot of different reasons   and not the least of which is one where   even in an adversarial   environment,   tools can continue to exist in whatever form it it may take. I you know, who knows what somebody   is cooking up in their basement right now? Like, I I legitimately don't know if somebody could fork that code and just be building anything. Maybe they're maybe they just put it all back up. Who knows? Nobody knows. But that's kind of, like, the point is you can take down some people, but you can't kill their idea.  

And samurai,   in particular,   built a very strong ecosystem. Like, it was a a bunch of people that naturally   came together   because they all they see things the same way. They believe the same things. They want the same things. They want to help push things   the same way. You got a bunch of people that are all pulling the same direction, and they all have the same goal. That's a very, very powerful force. So, you know, I would not be   at all surprised to see, you know, something   come out as basically, like, in in homage or whatever. Like, who you know how people get it. You know how people get it. So I like, yeah, that would not shock me at all. The sad part, what again, what's what you coming back to today, it's what's so sad about it is   I I would assume   that, you know, if somebody were to be trying to plan to release whatever code that they already had, like, you gotta think that they're not gonna be like samurai. I mean, samurai were were anons to   to, like, Twitter, and and people online didn't know them. But, like, you gotta think   these people are probably gonna be, like, Satoshi Ayanon. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.  

Yeah. That's so sad. Like, it's so sad that because it's so isolating   as a person. You know? Like, even if you're   trying to guard your obsek that high like, it's very it can be very isolating.   So I feel   bad, for, you know, just people and developers and people working for stuff in this space. I I, like, legitimately feel bad that they're just getting, like, you know, cold off and, like, separated and segregated from everybody else and isolated in their little bubbles.  

[01:10:27] Unknown:

Creators who can't share what they're doing with other people and, yeah, having to do it in the darkness. And Yeah. It's gonna go that way, obviously, with well, it it seems that way at the moment. Anyway, we'll see. But the other thing that I'm sort of like half jokingly was saying with q and a yesterday yesterday when we're recording, because we're talking about this exact thing, is, like, maybe there are some older   people who have the cypherpunk values, who care about the future of their children, who care about this stuff deeply.   Maybe they don't have that many years on the clock. Maybe they don't have that many months on the clock.  

And once you take away the threat of locking someone in the cage, if you say to someone, you're gonna do fucking 25 years. You're like, got 2 months. You can't.  

[01:11:08] Unknown:

Good luck. Good luck getting more a year out of me.  

[01:11:12] Unknown:

So maybe maybe   that's an extreme case, but maybe there are people where the clock is running low and maybe they wanna make a stand and maybe they don't hide in the shadows. Maybe they come out publicly and say, I've done   this. It can't be stopped.   Yeah. I'm going to die, and here's why I've done it.  

[01:11:31] Unknown:

I hope I mean, I I hope that it happens. I I really, really, really hope that it happens. And it's always you know what? It's that's one thing I've I've been surprised about several times. Like, it's always to me anyway, it's kinda surprising   who it is that does the thing. Like, it's people that you'll never know. And then the people that you would have thought would do it are like, no. Absolutely not. I would never. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? But it's just some, like, random guy that, you know, maybe had popped into Telegram and asked a couple questions along the way. You know what I mean? It's that guy that has   forked the whole code base and has been building   whatever   for years. And so it's just it's amazing to me how talented and some people are. But, yeah,   I   Whirlpool   was,   and this is my opinion, but I think it's we're pretty close to it being objective rather than subjective, honestly. Whirlpool was just in a different   class than the other tools. There was nothing else that was truly a zero link coin joint where it offered you the level of privacy, and then you had spending tools afterwards. You had you still have, like, on demand Kahoots that, you know, you could still do those today.  

So, like, all these things   made the samurai stack   just better, and it was just in a different class. And so for that entire class of, like, tools and everything to just be completely wiped off the planet in this fashion would be completely tragic, number 1. But number   2, that to me, that would actually be shocking. Like, I would be more surprised   if nobody   did anything. Like, nobody came out. There was never another release of, like, whatever, an altered Whirlpool or whatever. I would be more shocked to not see it than I would to see it. You know what I mean? It's one of those things. The structure is such that the tool, you know, it's always been noncustodial.   It's always been all this stuff. So it's like you're already past the point of worrying about, like, losing your funds or anything like that. So it's   to take a step backwards rather than to try to continue to build and stand on the shoulders of the people that came before you, which is what everybody has done throughout history, that would be shocking to me. So I'm honestly I'm just I'm just, like, waiting for it. I really am. I'm just waiting to see it. Like,   I just it's just so tragic and sad to me that I'm pretty convinced it'll just be some people that we may never know who it was. And that's   it's not fair, man. It's not fair. So, you know, again, the fight's not lost. Like, they have not locked it lost this case.  

Obviously, you can see what the government is arguing they consider to be illegal. But as far as I'm concerned, they haven't lost this case. Fencing guidance hasn't changed.   It's not illegal. It's still not illegal, but, you know, they're they're trying to make it. Obviously, that's their argument. But they haven't won the argument yet. So I just I don't want people to prematurely   give up and and try to seek this entirely different path when, actually, we we don't even need to go on a different path. Like, we were already on the right path. Whirlpool was already being worked to be decentralized. Like, it was it was almost there. You know what I mean? So, like, don't just because this happened, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater now and just forget everything there and just be like, oh, well, that was, you know, whatever. Let's go build this completely new thing because that's how what TDEB would call a science project   gets born. Right? That's how something comes up that nobody is ever gonna use or may never get finished or whatever. And it's just this grand idea that never makes a difference or matters. Like, you know, stay focused.  



[01:15:16] Unknown:

I think that's probably a good place to wrap it up, mate.   Stay focused.   Keep talking about it. We'll keep having these discussions on on government misfits. I know you guys are gonna be out there every way you can as well.   Keep building. If you are one of these people who's gonna be in the shadows and you're building something like this and you can't talk to anyone about it,   respect and love for doing that. And,   I know it's not gonna be easy. I know there's gonna be people out there who are gonna do it, and it's very brave and very admirable. So love to Samra and T Dev and   all the team and everyone who's been involved and all the community and   yeah. Free samurai.  



[01:15:57] Unknown:

Yeah, man. Thank thanks for having me on, bud. Appreciate   always. I know you're gonna continue to get the word out there. So thank you so much for everything that that you do and have done and and are gonna continue to do. Appreciate you.  

[01:16:10] Unknown:

Yeah. Thanks for having us, Max. Just don't sound so depressed when you're saying free samurai. I mean, like, we got this. I think the community is gonna rally. I'm gonna be the, cautiously optimistic one here. Good.   And I look forward to everybody really rallying. Soon as they we continue to push the message, it's gonna get through. Yeah. I, for sure, look forward to doing more and talk to you more often because I miss doing it. Hopefully, next time Diverter doesn't take all the time to talk. Yeah. I know. Unbelievable.   I know. That cunt. He, he does it so elegantly,   you know, with his, like, southern accent. It's   remarkable.  

But I   I am really, really glad to, have done it, especially with both you guys, because,   it's important, and I like having people who are smarter than me come with me. So, yeah, I look forward to doing it more, man. And, anyhow, send you the donation link as soon as I got it, and we'll keep pushing this thing together. We'll keep fighting. I love the optimism.  

[01:17:09] Unknown:

I'm gonna hold on to that. And at some point, all 3 of us and T Dev and Samurais,   everyone else involved, we're gonna have a few whiskeys, kick back and look back at this, and know that we've won. At the end of the day, we are in the right to fight evil, to fight control, to fight all the bullshit that we don't wanna see in the world. We're gonna keep going. So, yeah, I love the optimism, and we're not gonna stop.  

[01:17:33] Unknown:

Cheers, man.  

[01:17:35] Unknown:

Yes, sir. Have a good one.   Later, bro.  

[01:18:01] Unknown:

Couldn't go   much higher.   We find God   and religionists   to paint us with salvation.   But   no   one, no   nobody   can give you   the power   to ride   All that life,   they're dripping down the wall   of a dream that cannot   be in its harsh reality.   My confusion,   spooked fetters  

[01:20:36] Unknown:

Those who can hear me, I say, do not despair.   The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed.   The bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress.   The hate of men will pass, and dictators die. And the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish.   Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men. Machine men with machine minds and machine  

[01:23:12] Unknown:

If you're still here, you're still lurking,   you're still listening, If   you   If you enjoyed the show, please do share it with friends and family.   And if you do nothing else today,   even if it's for a few sats,   please support Sam Ryan T Dev.   They have done a lot for this space.   They've put their lives at risk to bring you privacy and freedom when no one else did. No one else wanted to stand in the firing line.   This is incredibly important, so please   donate.   Use the link below.   And if you have any difficulty doing it, you can reach out, and I will help you.   Free samurai.