Ungovernable Misfits

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Mining Bitcoin and swimming in sats

I had the pleasure of speaking to Tech Engineer a bitcoin mining pleb who has built a fully functional swimming pool heating system using bitcoin miners, immersion tanks and automation to thermostatically control everything. Tech engineers focus is on privacy, security and the ability to double spend energy to heat while mining Bitcoin. In this episode we discus Tech’s rabbit hole journey and why mining was so interesting for him, we also discussed the need for decentralising the network and helping smaller miners compete by using the heat produced by mining for something productive. I really enjoyed speaking to Tech and I hope you enjoy listening. I have decided to also add transcripts at the bottom of the show notes as some people have told me this would be useful. Transcripts might not be perfect but they should be pretty good. 

 

If you aren’t already following @techengineer21 I suggest you do it now. 

 

twitter - @techengineer21

twitter - link to pinned video https://twitter.com/techengineer21/status/1523023198287130624?s=20&t=Ct2G5BawqRw4Nc6LcRUaBQ

As always please feel free to reach out and ask me any questions.

twitter - @MaxBitbuybit

twitter - @bitbuybitpod

Website - https://ungovernablemisfits.com

 

Today you can exchange $1 for 4760 Sats (Sale ends soon.) 

Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show.

Use code BITBUYBIT at check out for $10 off your purchase

 

00:01.28

maxbuybit1

So hey there mate can you hear me I can hear you loud and clear welcome to the show.

 

00:03.55

TechEngineer

I am max I can hear you can you hear me.

 

00:17.49

TechEngineer

Thank you for having me I'd be here.

 

00:25.00

maxbuybit1

Yeah, well, it's an absolute pleasure to have you On. Um I try and find always people who are doing interesting things and not just the usual podcast circuit and I came across your profile and saw your video you'd done um on this immersion tank and. Pool heating and is something I discussed ages ago with a mate of mine a mate like me with no technical ability and it was just like a thing we talked about but we're too dumb to actually do it. We're like fuck. Someone's got to do this. This is something that's got to happen just makes so much sense and when I saw yours I was like fuck I just need to speak to you and.

 

01:25.59

TechEngineer

And.

 

01:44.12

maxbuybit1

You know, find a little bit more out because this is the future. It's fucking cool.

 

01:51.23

TechEngineer

So right on man. Yeah, let's let's talk about it.

 

01:59.56

maxbuybit1

So Yeah I mean um, less so we can do rabbit hole stuff later On. Let's just dive straight in with with what you've been doing Obviously I've seen the video but. For anyone who hasn't can you sort of describe the project and and and what made you decide to do it.

 

02:33.79

TechEngineer

Yeah, absolutely so let me start with a little background. Um back in 2017 was when I kind of went down the bitcoin rabbit hole. It was November of None I heard on the radio bitcoin cross $10000 and I was like. What is going on with this. Um and I was I was instantly intrigued and wanted to look into it more and immediately was drawn to the technology aspect of it and the mining aspect of it. Um. So I started looking into mining and at that time. Ah the miners went up in cost dramatically kind of similar to what happened in 20202021 and I tried to put to order a miner and it. It got delayed and that eventually just never shipped. Um, but there it so it was ah an it was an expensive endeavor for me to get into but I was still very interested. But at the time I knew like I was living in Colorado and I wanted to somehow use the heat that was. Being put off of these devices because I knew they put just put out a ton of heat. So that time I was thinking well maybe I'll just put in my basement and ducked something up to my upstairs long story short. It never ended up up working out just because the miner never showed up and then um. Price kind of dumped and then we went into a bear market and the profitability equation changed and I just decided that I just couldn't I didn't get into it at that time but that kind of built in the back of my mind like.

 

05:54.36

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

06:16.35

TechEngineer

Want to mine. It's important for the bitcoin ecosystem for mining to be very decentralized but we need some sort of other factor that helps it be more productive to like a home miner so hard using the heat was in my mind. So fast forward to 2021? Um I finally decided you know what I need to just take the plunge here and start building a heater out of a minor so I don't know if you saw my original video but it was a a minor that I put inside of a box. And then aducted into my hvac system my heater my the heater in my house and then I put in some dampers and thermostatically controlled the airflow from the heater from the from the miner into my heater. So I basically he did my entire house all winter using using this system. So I'm I'm guessing you haven't seen that one I think you saw my ah.

 

08:08.54

maxbuybit1

Amazing. I haven't no um I haven't seen that one I have seen it done before but I haven't seen that specific one and I'm right in thinking it's fucking cold in Colorado. Been been there skiing before and fraze my boocks off. So I assume you need a lot of heat when you're living in there.

 

08:55.51

TechEngineer

So yeah, and actually I don't live in Colorado anymore I mean I'm in Nevada now. So it's a much warmer climate but um, still need some heat in the winter. So I mean that was that was my None big.

 

09:04.50

maxbuybit1

Okay.

 

09:30.39

TechEngineer

Step into this whole arena here was when I built that that system and that was kind of before I had joined bitcoin Twitter even and realized everything that was going on. So um, so once I had ah finished that system.

 

09:40.60

maxbuybit1

Here here.

 

10:07.57

TechEngineer

And I had proved out that I can actually heat my house all winter with this system. Um the the next level for me was immersion. So the original system was just taking the air and redirecting it.

 

10:30.76

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

10:43.77

TechEngineer

Um, but you can only do so much with redirecting air. You can't move it very far. You can't do anything other than really heating air with air. But I knew in the back of my head that ah like liquid cooling like I have I build um my own computers. And the cpu are liquid cooled so that was already in my mind like that's a thing I just didn't know that an immersion existed yet. So once I so once I kind of got on to bitcoin Twitter saw some other people do an immersion once I realized that was a thing I was like.

 

11:24.72

maxbuybit1

Here. Okay.

 

11:51.81

TechEngineer

Oh my God I gotta try this out because I.

 

11:58.56

maxbuybit1

What what was what was that like finding bitcoin Twitter for the None time because I know for me, it was an absolute lifesaver like it just changed the game.

 

12:20.30

TechEngineer

And it was ah it was ah a game changer for me as well. I mean I have always kind of been doing these projects and I mean my name is my name is tech engineer because I love technology I Love engineering I'm mean the home automation I'm always doing Diy engineering projects but I'm just kind of doing it.

 

13:02.78

maxbuybit1

A.

 

13:00.51

TechEngineer

Solo on my own That's how I've always done it and I've always wanted to kind of like branch out and like start documenting these things like because I know that what I'm doing has interest to other people and so finally I was like you know I just got to do this and I made a video about it posted on Youtube and then then it just kind of. Ble up on Twitter and went around in in through bitcoin Twitter and I realized all these people have a big interest in this and I was like oh my god these are these are my fucking people right here like so it was ah it was a game changer for me then I I mean I I love it like it's.

 

13:51.94

maxbuybit1

Are.

 

14:16.22

maxbuybit1

Yeah, that's so fucking cool and and like you said is it is so useful for so many people because you know there are people like me who like us a really great idea like it's It's a logical thing that you use this heat. But then we're too dumb to actually do it and then so you have this this stuff documented and.

 

14:14.17

TechEngineer

Awesome.

 

14:50.77

TechEngineer

So.

 

14:55.34

maxbuybit1

It's so important to help decentralize this thing because otherwise what's going to happen if you don't have people like you and acono alchemists and people out there who are pushing and documenting you just have everyone putting their minors in huge warehouses with shit shows like compass or things like that. And then it's really so much easier to attack and um, yeah, that's why I'm just I'm so excited when I see this kind of innovation and and people tinkering and and building and um, this is this is the stuff that like really moves this space. Forward. This is what it's all about.

 

15:58.53

TechEngineer

So yeah, absolutely and that is one of my biggest drivers behind what I'm doing is to further decentralize mining because I see the trend happening of centralization of mining whether it be into. Big mining companies or like you were saying like hosted solutions and that just that just introduces a whole host of of problems. Um, when you have centralization and I actually have an article coming out in the next few days that I talk a bit more about it. Um.

 

16:41.14

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

17:12.20

TechEngineer

And why I think that's kind of bad I don't I don't I don't one hundred percent think that like big bitcoin minds are bad but we need both. We need we need. We need to decentralize as much as we can um, but whereas but what worries me is what happened to me in 27

 

17:28.14

maxbuybit1

A.

 

17:48.93

TechEngineer

Eighteen where I was interested in mining. But then I realized that the profitability equation just wasn't there once we went into a bear market. So but I realized that if we can use reuse the heat and if somebody's like heating their pool or their house.

 

18:04.92

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

18:25.21

TechEngineer

And they're also making bitcoin Now we have a different equation altogether.

 

18:32.44

maxbuybit1

And the other the other interesting thing for me when it comes to this stuff like this like even if even if it's breakeven or only very very slightly profitable for people the fat that they're actually mining and getting no K I see sats. Rather than just going on to an exchange and buying on there and giving all their information I think that's incredibly important to push this space forward in the right Direction. So the more this gets normalized. Um the better for the whole space. The better for the individual like But. Ah, whole thing about this for me anyway is like this is freedom money and fuck you money? not you know KYC cut money and and go and give all your details away and everyone's tracked and and traced that's that's not the future I Want to see here. So What you're doing here allows people to actually have access to this and. Allows people to this to be a reality for people where it makes financial sense as well.

 

20:31.45

TechEngineer

Yeah, absolutely and I mean I see you know more of the hardcore bitcoiners. They're willing to mine at an even or even a little bit of a loss just because of the no KYC option but to get into.

 

20:47.54

maxbuybit1

I.

 

20:58.34

maxbuybit1

Um.

 

21:10.15

TechEngineer

The next layer of people that you know aren't that into it. It needs to be either more profitable or simpler or say they're just buying a water heater that happens to make bitcoin on the side. That's right, That's where I want to see it going and.

 

21:40.26

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

21:48.53

TechEngineer

And 10 years is like these are just appliances that are that the average person is buying whether or whether or not they even know that bitcoin is being mined I mean that's all I think we need to get to eventually is that it's just.

 

22:09.86

maxbuybit1

A.

 

22:24.57

TechEngineer

Integrated into every part of our system because I mean if if this is going to be the base layer of of the future monetary system. It's got to be secure.

 

22:48.56

maxbuybit1

Yeah, absolutely and so obviously you, you're a very like technically minded guy. Um, what was it like for you coming into this from the tech side and being like this is interesting. This is cool. Um, and then. Looking into the money like what was that experience like or were you already interested in Austrian economics and and that side of things or was it ah quite a mind blowing thing to be like oh shit like this is this is the money we've been using and this this is the problems.

 

23:38.37

TechEngineer

And.

 

23:56.95

TechEngineer

So I was I was at None very interested in money go up I saw 10000 I was kind of an investor in the stock market and I was like what is going on here now I I had actually heard about bitcoin mining in I think around None

 

24:30.52

maxbuybit1

A.

 

24:32.15

TechEngineer

And I looked into it for None nutes and was like um yeah I don't know what this is like never got into it obviously kicking myself for it. But anyway, um, in 172018 it was like the technology was mind blowing to me. Um I have always. So I'm ah I'm a network engineer by trade I've been building computers and networks for over 20 years so the technology side was really really intriguing to me cryptography has always interested me. Um I'm a. Been a certified ethical hacker in the past. So I kind of um, have a deeper understanding of cryptography and security and all these things are just beautifully enveloped in in bitcoin. So it was technology kind of money. Go up. 172018 for me. Um, none 2021 it was really looking at bitcoin from the aspect of the world needs a new financial system because our current one is completely broken. And I mean it even it got just got worse in 202021 in my opinion and and now so it was in the last two years that I was like the world really needs. Bitcoin now it's not just a cool technology. It's it's a socioeconomic revolution that the world needs.

 

27:27.22

maxbuybit1

A.

 

27:37.92

maxbuybit1

Yeah I couldn't agree more I think we're fucked without it.

 

27:45.35

TechEngineer

Um, yeah.

 

27:53.58

maxbuybit1

So yeah, it's interesting to see somebody come in from the textile I mean almost everyone that I know or spoken to is always number go up almost always number go up I mean a few people say like oh yeah I mean I'm in it for the tech, especially in the bear markets.

 

28:14.43

TechEngineer

So ah.

 

28:26.92

maxbuybit1

Ah, you know if truth be told it's It's always for the money and um, yeah, it's um, it is nice to know that we've got this thing on our side and um, it's It's nice to know that there's like a possibility for a future where.

 

28:26.21

TechEngineer

Yeah, so.

 

29:00.16

maxbuybit1

We aren't tied to these psychopaths who are doing the crazy shit they're doing at the moment and um, it's you know for for the less technical people. Um, it takes a long time to like have some trust in this thing. Um, but I imagine for you.

 

29:29.33

TechEngineer

Yeah, absolutely I.

 

29:35.46

maxbuybit1

Especially with the background. You've just told me it's like um, you're almost made for this. You know you're made to understand this with the background that you have so when you were None learning were there any like red flags or anything where you thought ah you know this is a problem or that's a problem like were there were there concerns.

 

30:11.35

TechEngineer

Amen you're cutting out a little bit and.

 

30:14.64

maxbuybit1

Or or are there any concerns that you have with the system now.

 

30:21.35

TechEngineer

Hey sorry max you you cut out a little bit like I missed a bit of that question. Can you hear me.

 

30:29.68

maxbuybit1

Fucking Hell have I lost you? ah.

 

30:44.83

TechEngineer

M.

 

31:02.93

TechEngineer

Can you hear me.

 

31:17.81

TechEngineer

Can you hear me relax.

 

31:49.70

TechEngineer

Okay, can you hear me max.

 

31:54.98

maxbuybit1

Okay, mate what I'm gonna do then if you can't hear me I am going to close this out and then I'll send you another link and we'll start to with start again. You haven't got well you haven't got yours muted just try speaking. Let me see if I can see your sound waves.

 

32:42.17

TechEngineer

Can you hear me can you hear me at all. Yeah oh they're moving for me.

 

32:46.76

maxbuybit1

If you're speaking now I can't hear you can you? You maybe can see the sound waves like minor moving and then there's nothing under yours. So if it's not muted then I don't know I'll ah I'll send you a new link now mate.

 

00:00.30

maxbuybit1

So hey mate. Yeah I heard that can you hear me? Yeah, excellent and we're recording fucking every time I have some stupid issue with this so apologies. Um, yeah, that's all say.

 

00:02.70

TechEngineer

You Yes I can hear you can hear me. Okay.

 

00:26.46

TechEngineer

But the worst.

 

00:34.85

maxbuybit1

So so I'm not sure where we exactly cut off there I was probably waffling about something. Ah but I can't remember where we'd got to it doesn't matter doesn't matter. Um, so yeah I.

 

00:47.16

TechEngineer

I Can't remember either to be honest, um.

 

01:13.77

maxbuybit1

Tell me a little bit more about because obviously you'd said you'd started with without immersion and and moving air and now obviously you're working with immersion. Um I know from previous conversations with. John who you know and a few others who were saying that it also makes it a little bit more performant and potentially because it's more stable can be good for um for the miners as well is that right? and and if so do you sort of see most of the space eventually going. This route with immersion.

 

02:22.20

TechEngineer

Yeah, so once I had completed my original heater and then I realized that immersion existed I was like this this is definitely the way because once you have the heat in liquid form. You can do a lot more with it. You can heat water heaters you can heat pools you can still heat air. You can use a water to air heat exchanger and just switch it back into air so you can have None power plant of a minor heater creating heat into an oil and then. Use that heat for many different applications. So I knew it was more modular to reuse the heat in that way. So I want it I wanted to try it out and and build it and in terms of.

 

03:45.77

maxbuybit1

A.

 

03:55.56

TechEngineer

The longevity of the miners being in oil I have heard that as well and it makes sense to me that um, an oil would be healthier for the chips to be in um, the oil itself is like a none times more. Ah. Are less conducive to less electricity than air. So that helps and then it just keeps it. You know, encapsulated away from oxygen so I I think in general it. It makes sense that it would be better for it. I haven't done any long-term testing myself yet. Obviously I built that tank only I guess about five months ago now four or five months ago now so but yeah, that's kind of the the reasoning for transitioning into.

 

05:13.59

maxbuybit1

He.

 

05:27.71

maxbuybit1

A.

 

05:43.38

TechEngineer

Immersion is the capability of where you can move that heat to you can go longer distance. There's many more things you can do at once once it's in a liquid form.

 

06:09.69

maxbuybit1

And so you know the other thing that you were talking about was like this being in ah this sort of being if I lost you again. Are you there.

 

06:39.22

TechEngineer

Hey you just cut out again. Can you hear me? Okay, okay.

 

06:45.87

maxbuybit1

Yeah I just saw that it cut out. Um, yeah I can hear I can hear you sorry I'm almost certain this is going to be my ah my issue on my end. So I do apologize. But hopefully we can work with it. Um.

 

07:04.96

TechEngineer

Okay, yeah.

 

07:19.30

maxbuybit1

Yeah, So ah, you were saying about you know this potentially being used um in boilers and and other products where people don't even necessarily have to know that they're mining bitcoin. Do You think that? um. There's any drawbacks or any reason like in terms of efficiency or anything like that. Why someone would use like a traditional kombie Boiler or something over one of these because obviously a lot of those are gas rather than you know running with electric.

 

08:19.56

TechEngineer

So yeah, so in terms of efficiency. Um, all electricity turns into a to heat 100% of the time. No matter what what you're using the electricity for it always transitions a hundred percent into heat.

 

08:54.55

maxbuybit1

E.

 

08:56.18

TechEngineer

So if you're comparing directly to say an electric pool heater that is just using resistive like a resistive coil. You're just pushing electricity through a coil and it heats up comparing that to running an Asic and then. Pulling the heat off of that you're we're gonna you're going to be near near a hundred percent efficiency um other than some losses of like the tank or the the piping but all that can be minimized with insulation and whatnot so comparing an Asic.

 

09:57.35

maxbuybit1

A a.

 

10:11.64

TechEngineer

Heater to an electric heater. It's near near None efficiency theoretically and and for the most part in practice once it's once it's well designed and once you have a system that's is completed and set up the efficiency is going to be very high. Comparing to that to gas is um is another story because then you're you're running into like the cost of gas heating versus electric heating and often in a lot of jurisdictions. Gas is cheaper than electricity.

 

11:10.31

maxbuybit1

A.

 

11:26.60

TechEngineer

So from a pure ah pure cost perspective gas could theoretically still be cheaper. But if you're just dropped replacing say an electric water heater for an asic electric water or pool Heater. It's going to be. Going to cost the same amount to run it. You're just going to be making bitcoin on top of that. So it might end up paying for itself. But so I mean in my case I have a ah gas heater in my house I switch to electric. Technically I'm spending more fiat dollars on.

 

12:10.30

maxbuybit1

A.

 

12:40.38

TechEngineer

The electric cost relative to gas but I also made up enough bitcoin to cover to cover that. So.

 

12:57.99

maxbuybit1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense and I guess the other thing is like getting people's minds to shift I mean it's hard for now like you're saying oh you know you come in in 2017 and you're looking at like mining profitability and you're thinking oh well. You know how many dollars am I going to get and and you're looking at it ah through that lens whereas you know once someone's been in bitcoin for long enough and understands this at the end of the day all they care about is how many sats can I get I don't care what the dollar value is today tomorrow a year two years you know it it matters to me long term how many sats I'm getting and so um, maybe that affects the way that people think about this in the future.

 

14:24.28

TechEngineer

So yeah, absolutely and I mean that goes back to um you know more of a hardcore bitcoin versus a random person doesn't care I mean somebody that is just wanting to stack sats and that's important to them and that's I mean that's important to me for sure.

 

14:58.79

maxbuybit1

Hey.

 

15:02.36

TechEngineer

Um, but to get this into a broader Market. It's got to be more more um profitable just in general and I mean even even for the the bitcoin miners that are very into to just stacking sats. Right Now. It's it's it's hard I mean the the profitability equation is has changed. You know you get you got the difficulty of the hash rates at all time Highs Meanwhile bitcoin's price is is down. So.

 

15:41.83

maxbuybit1

A.

 

16:11.20

TechEngineer

So when you're looking at that equation. It's hard to be like yes I'm going to I want to get into mining because it looks unprofitable If you're if you're looking at the equation but mining for heat can change that equation.

 

16:26.91

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

16:45.15

maxbuybit1

Yeah, dramatically um and so what are people who you're working with and friends and family and and people around you are who aren't on bitcoin Twitter like what are they saying if they're coming round yours and they're seeing this thing and they're like what the fuck are you doing here like what are you.

 

17:02.26

TechEngineer

So.

 

17:24.35

maxbuybit1

What is this crazy invention that you've got or are you starting to orange pill people around you.

 

17:35.92

TechEngineer

Yeah, when when my friends and family see it I mean it depends on who it is you know I mean some of my friends that are more technical kind of already understand bitcoin a little bit. They're they're like Wow that's incredible that you can take a computer and harvest the heat and. Like most people had no idea that that's even possible I mean I didn't even know that was possible really a year ago either. So It's like it is like jaw-dropping even even for myself to look at it and look at this tank and be like wait. There's a computer putting off heat I'm heating my pool with a computer.. It's just like. I'm like swimming in bitcoin At this point literally. So yeah, exactly and it's so it's mind blowing to me I mean it's mind blowing to my friends and family that I tell about it and I mean yeah to some extent. It's helping to orange pill people because at at least.

 

19:00.75

maxbuybit1

Swimming in sets. Ah.

 

19:29.82

TechEngineer

Opens up the conversation and they're like Wow This is so Interesting. What is this thing and I mean people are telling me like oh I should patent and it because it just looks like this crazy contraption and so it's ah it's a mix of like. Awe and interest and and and maybe a little crazy I don't know.

 

20:18.25

maxbuybit1

Ah, yeah, well, it's ah it certainly looks cool like um it it's just I don't know when you see something working when you see something like this.. It's so much more interesting than just like sitting down with someone and saying. Yes, There's a single bitcoin and it's really good money because of X Y and Zd and like you know the the normal sort of orange pilling that people do um I've always found like showing someone either just like sending them some bitcoin on a wallet or like showing a node running and telling them how it works and and that kind of stuff like. Tends to pique more interest but then this is that on steroids because it's like what what the fuck you're you're hitting your pool that's mental like no one. No one reads anything like that in you know in the newspapers or hears anything about. This kind of stuff in normally worlds. So. It's a real slap in the face and I think it opens the door really nicely to explain. Well yeah, it's not just some stock or something you buy and the price goes up or down like this is a system. And it's incredible for for a None reasons we could list and um, it just opens the door and and I think like whatever type of person it is if they take the time they'll find a little area that they're interested In. You know, be it privacy the economic side or.

 

22:30.72

TechEngineer

This is.

 

23:00.55

maxbuybit1

You know the engineering side or whatever it is. There's always something for someone and um, yeah, it's ah it's that you know that's the great thing about bitcoin Twitter everyone can help each other and and um, they always have someone to speak to about and and go further and further. Down the rubber hole with these things and.

 

23:34.98

TechEngineer

Yeah, absolutely and I mean and I mean speaking of the normie and their reaction to it I mean it's It's a pretty easy cell potentially eventually if these heaters are more integrated be like hey do you like? do you like free heat. Do you like free energy.

 

24:02.67

maxbuybit1

I.

 

24:12.30

TechEngineer

I Mean do you like free water heaters. Do you like free pool heaters. Do you like? do you like a pool heater that pays for itself I mean nobody can say no to that right? So it's it's potentially it's a potential easy in for.

 

24:19.97

maxbuybit1

A.

 

24:32.29

maxbuybit1

Um.

 

24:48.58

TechEngineer

Not only understanding bitcoin but also integrating mining and further decentralizing mining even to people that don't care about bitcoin.

 

25:10.70

maxbuybit1

And so is that something that you're trying to push now I mean I know that you ah yeah, think you're on this mining panel with John very soon. He'd mentioned is this something where you're kind of like trying to spread the word and and. You know make this a reality.

 

25:50.22

TechEngineer

I Guess you could say it's kind of the angle that I'm working within the bitcoin ecosystem. It's an angle that I don't see pursued a lot and I and it's an angle that I think is important. Um for how I see.

 

26:14.70

maxbuybit1

And.

 

26:30.38

TechEngineer

Long-term trend of of bitcoin mining and the importance of decentralizing it. So I don't don't I don't know if I'd say I'm like pushing it. But I mean like it's it's important to me and it's interesting to me and. Love what I'm building and I love the the projects I work on I Love engineering. So It's just it's fun to me and then and I'm I'm helping to I'm helping out the greater bitcoin ecosystem and it's fun to be a part of this.

 

27:38.47

maxbuybit1

Yeah, definitely and and getting to find other people who are iterating on this as well. Um, you know people who are taking ideas and then running with them and um, there's so many different things that you can do with heat So many useful things and so. Um, it's amazing. Like once you start looking at what people are doing and the the crazy ideas they've got like I've seen people um, using them in greenhouses I've heard people talking about um all sorts of heating not just for homes but also for like yeah hot tubs and. Yeah, obviously you're doing the pool and all sorts of things and like um I don't know where it ends like I'm sure this could be used for types of farming and other stuff. So um, you know everyone needs heat or almost everyone needs. Heat.

 

29:18.42

TechEngineer

So yeah, there's there's a ton of applications. Um, yeah I've seen greenhouses and yeah bouncing ideas off of other people is amazing I mean bitcoin Twitter is almost kind of like a giant collective brain. Where.

 

29:51.57

maxbuybit1

A.

 

29:54.32

TechEngineer

Like I can I can I can work on a ah micro part of the problem build something somebody takes what I've done and iterate upon that and solve another piece of the problem. Um, and I mean for example I built my my tank which other people had already done I Kind of. I Kind of saw what other people did and I kind of designed something around what I needed and and and customized it for myself. But I kind of iterated on what other people had done um the next step that I haven't released or talked about too much yet or I'm still in progress is The. More of the automation side of like so with a pool heater you want to increase the heat based on the temperature of the pool right? So I mean eventually you want to be able to set a set temperature.

 

31:32.95

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

31:45.86

TechEngineer

Like and just make it simple and then the system just handles the background of heating or not heating So I I've talked to other people about this and somebody else. Ran with that idea and he he's ah he's a very talented developer and he was able to build an integration between the firmware and um, a microcontroller essentially and now I've been able to implement that into my system. So I have a thermostatically controlled. Environment Now. So I can set a temperature and then the the miners can actually scale up and scale down based on heat demand.

 

33:14.55

maxbuybit1

That's really fucking cool. So so what are they doing you you dropping the power of these machines to then drop the heat. Basically you're like under clocking or overclocking depending on the demand is that is that right.

 

33:37.40

TechEngineer

Exactly That's exactly right.

 

33:45.31

maxbuybit1

And is that brains that's doing that or is that a separate bit of software or or firmware or whatever that you're using.

 

33:59.38

TechEngineer

Yeah, so I'm using Brains Os Plus as the firmware and they have an api. Um, and that's what the integration was is reaching out to so the the integration between it's actually home assistant. Which is a home automation platform an open source home automation platform that talks to the api of Brains Os and now we can get. We can get the temperature of the chips and we can get the the hash rate and we can get a bunch of information from the minor to. Home assistant and we can also tell brains Os to tell the miner to scale up or scale down and we can do that based on any event Now. So I then set up a microcontroller with sensors that. Sense The input from the Pool. So and I now know the temperature of the pool and based on that I can have an automation that then says scale up the the miner if we need more heat which increases the wattage.

 

36:18.90

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

36:19.28

TechEngineer

And therefore increases the the output of the heat and and heats faster Ideally where I see it ideally where I see it going is you would size the number of miners appropriately to the the heat.

 

36:35.81

maxbuybit1

That's.

 

36:54.82

TechEngineer

Ah, destination. So say you have a fifty Thousand Gallon pool it's going to be different than a one Thousand Gallon pool you're going to need more miners. You're going to need more heat in a bigger pool obviously or in a a bigger house so you size it to the right size. Ideally, you want the miner running at an efficient wattage.

 

37:08.81

maxbuybit1

Um.

 

37:35.63

maxbuybit1

Um.

 

37:33.38

TechEngineer

Pretty much all the time. But if say it was cold One day you could over clock quite a bit and and get more heat or you could under clock on say a hotter day so it it gives the ability to scale more so you can scale up or scale down more.

 

37:56.89

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

38:12.90

TechEngineer

Using these automated integrations.

 

38:21.55

maxbuybit1

Are there any concerns with overclocking and under clocking and and adjusting these miners on a consistent basis in terms of the longevity. Um with these machines like gion I mean like is it. Is it possible that that could be detrimental to the lifespan of them and rather than just having them running at a consistent ah speed or you know whatever you would call that.

 

39:19.74

TechEngineer

Yeah,, that's a good question and I mean I think in general overclocking of any chip is going to tend to decrease its lifespan. But. I Mean immersion helps a lot with that because you're you're keeping the temperatures down and I mean that's the biggest problem with overclocking is the temperature. The temperatures go higher and that's that's the killer of chips is temp is temperature. So but that being the case that's that's kind of why I said like.

 

40:04.71

maxbuybit1

A.

 

40:30.40

TechEngineer

Ideally, you'd you'd keep it running at actually an efficient level or a standard level as kind of your base load and then just occasionally kind of overclock um as needed and I'd so I don't.

 

40:59.10

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

41:03.64

TechEngineer

In that kind of use case I don't think it's It's bad and from what I've seen working with brainsos and the dynamic power scaling. It doesn't seem like it has any negative effect to be scaling up and scaling down on a somewhat regular basis.

 

41:40.69

maxbuybit1

Um.

 

41:42.20

TechEngineer

Um, but that is a good question to actually look at the long-term impacts of that which which I haven't quite done at this point I mean that I've been running it for you know five months so it's a few months but not not years right.

 

42:10.63

maxbuybit1

Yeah, definitely um, but that I mean that's that's so key like having this thermostatically controlled and all you know automated is it just knows a whole new level isn't it because.

 

42:38.20

TechEngineer

Yes.

 

42:44.17

maxbuybit1

You're not going to have people say like oh yeah, I'll put one of these in and then they're tweaking and fucking around with it all the time like you know people want want to put this in their pool to be at the right temperature the things to run nothing to break. They just wanted to to work. You know when the. Sort of non tinkerers start wanting these in their homes because it makes financial sense. Um, this is the kind of stuff which just completely changes the game.

 

43:27.62

TechEngineer

Right? And and the other issue is it's got to be maintainable I mean you don't want to you don't want to have situations where it overheats and you know now we have other problems to deal with with overheating it can be a. Security arm mean. Ah it can be kind of dangerous if it overheats too much. You can have fires and lots of different things. So there there needs to be control mechanisms in place that I mean even just an emergency shutdown when overheating that requires some sort of brain.

 

44:13.50

maxbuybit1

A.

 

44:41.42

TechEngineer

To to kind of control things and I mean the miners firmware usually have that kind of built in to some extent but I just don't it doesn't make me comfortable to just release like just a system without some sort of finish to it to any person that isn't.

 

44:44.79

maxbuybit1

A.

 

45:13.63

maxbuybit1

E.

 

45:17.26

TechEngineer

Building it themselves you know So I've I've had people already like hey I want to do this on my pool I Want to do this on my hot tub and I'm just not quite there yet. But that's kind of the goal to be able to refine this system to make it more accessible to more people that are. Interested in doing this and.

 

45:57.87

maxbuybit1

Yeah I think there'll be a lot of people who do want to and the other thing I've wondered about for ages I don't know whether it's possible or not. But um, could you do it with a sauna. Do you think like I know that's a dry heat but would it be possible to. Do a hot tub and a sauna if someone like wanted both.

 

46:39.90

TechEngineer

I Don't see why not I don't know a ton about Saunas but I think that would just essentially be um, changing the heat from the oil-based heat into air via a water to air heat exchanger and. Blowing it into a room to heat it up a lot and then I think Saunas are usually I mean they usually have some humidity put in or something but I think it's certainly doable. Yeah.

 

47:21.39

maxbuybit1

Here here.

 

47:33.87

maxbuybit1

Yeah.

 

47:45.17

maxbuybit1

So interesting. It's like once once your brain starts ticking with like these sort of ideas you cut I can't help like thinking into the future and just thinking Oh I lost you again either. Ah, you come.

 

48:11.64

TechEngineer

So hey you just cut out for a None are you can hear me again. Okay.

 

48:23.59

maxbuybit1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it seems to just cut out for a none or 2 but I was just saying I can't help my mind from running wild and like thinking where the fuck are we going to be in like 5 years with this stuff like there's so many applications for heat. It just? um. Yeah I can't help thinking that it's just going to be. You know, five years ten years from now everywhere.

 

49:08.98

TechEngineer

I know there's there's so many applications it's it's unreal I mean I had a guy in Canada contact me. He's like yeah this this place way up here. How it's like ° all year long and they have almost free power like what can we do with this.

 

49:41.50

maxbuybit1

Ah, really.

 

49:45.40

TechEngineer

I Mean it's like the the amount of the amount of areas that are cold and neat heat I mean that's that's a huge market. Yeah yeah.

 

50:07.77

maxbuybit1

Yeah, absolutely massive. Why is their power So so low is that like a ah dam or like Hydro or something like that.

 

50:22.40

TechEngineer

Um, yeah, it was some ah like small mining town like old school mining town that had some old ah contract with like a hydro power plant or something like that. Um, so it was like.

 

50:55.51

maxbuybit1

Here here.

 

51:00.90

TechEngineer

None cost power and they were all they're already using like electric heat. So I mean they probably just use thousands of Kilowatt hours of just electric heat already. So that's just an easy easy drop replace.

 

51:23.30

maxbuybit1

Here. Yeah.

 

51:34.78

TechEngineer

I Mean it's not. It's not E It's not easy. It's but it's a it makes sense financially. It's like that's an easy equation.

 

51:49.81

maxbuybit1

Yeah, definitely and and for people who have cheap power. The other thing I was thinking before this call is especially now when you have like a drop drop in price and like the s nine s and some of the older hardware and those prices drop to like practically 0 Um.

 

52:19.90

TechEngineer

Is this.

 

52:30.19

maxbuybit1

Presumably for you know someone who has 0 None near 0 power. It's actually going to be better than going and buying electric heaters because you can get these things for practically free and if you're heating a big space. Um, you know you can you can get a bunch of these things you know. Plug them in have them running and um, you know I'm sure if you get get enough of these people just want to get rid once they become unprofitable.

 

53:20.34

TechEngineer

Yeah, exactly and that's kind of always been in the back of my mind too is that we could. We can definitely use older generation miners. We can keep them in service longer essentially by using them as heat sources now. Maybe you'd get you'd want to get. You know one or 2 generations old if you're installing a new ah new heater system. Just so that you wouldn't have to upgrade them for several years um obviously the the bitcoin bitcoin miners the the generations they they go quickly. Although.

 

54:08.95

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

54:37.14

TechEngineer

I See that trending towards slowing down. Um the the quickness of how fast the older generation becomes obsolete I think we're reaching kind of the top of a exponential curve or a logrod and a curve of of improvements.

 

54:44.45

maxbuybit1

A.

 

55:15.56

TechEngineer

In terms of hash rate and efficiency if that makes sense.

 

55:25.49

maxbuybit1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and and do you think? Also you're going to have more players stepping in I know there's been talk of it. Um, you know I sort of believe it when I see it. But do you think that? um. People making this hardware There'll be some decentralization there and um and more optionality for sort of um yeah for for people coming in that there's not just like None big players.

 

56:19.64

TechEngineer

Yeah, so I know there's so I know Intel is getting into the space as well as Jack Dorsey and I don't know a ton about them. But from what I understand they're attempting to make a more like modular approach.

 

56:35.83

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

56:57.58

TechEngineer

To the the Asics. So instead of buying like an ant miner. You could just buy a thousand chips that you put directly into say a heater. So now we can just we don't need to like build the tank around the form factor.

 

57:03.51

maxbuybit1

Yeah.

 

57:39.39

maxbuybit1

A.

 

57:37.12

TechEngineer

Ah, an s nineteen it can just it can just be more integrated directly into like an actual heater. They're just built right in and so.

 

57:58.70

maxbuybit1

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and and like space wise that would make that would be much better presumably.

 

58:08.84

TechEngineer

So yeah, so I mean that's kind of where I see it going longer term is it. It'll be very integrated.

 

58:27.13

maxbuybit1

Yeah, because the the other thing is like if you're getting these ah the hardware as it's built now when you're then putting it into Immersion. You're presumably like taking these fans off or bypassing them somehow because they're not needed and so there's there's a load of stuff that's. Built around it. That's actually not necessary so it seems quite wasteful. Um, yeah, like or not as efficient as it could be so that that would make sense if they did it that way.

 

59:25.64

TechEngineer

Yeah, absolutely we're we're kind of repurposing a product for something. It wasn't really intended for. But if we can redesign it from the ground up as a heater then then it's a different equation altogether. But I mean.

 

59:47.57

maxbuybit1

A.

 

59:58.44

TechEngineer

That's a whole other scale. That's you know, probably 5 10 years out I would think so in in in the shorter term. Um, it's interesting to see where we can go with repurposing these things for heat applications.

 

01:00:27.75

maxbuybit1

So you obviously spend loads of time thinking about bitcoin and mining and everything in the space like do you have any thoughts on where we're going like if you're looking out into the future. You've said obviously you know the money's fucked. You think that this system is. Very beautifully designed and it obviously has grabbed your attention hard because most people wouldn't be building what you're building unless they really cared. But do you sort of you know if you if you let your mind wander Where do you think we're going to be in None ears What? What? do you think is going to be happening in this space.

 

01:01:40.10

TechEngineer

Yeah, it's a good question. Um I I hope for a bitcoin standard eventually I think it that it needs to happen I believe that I mean obviously I don't know how or when it's going to happen or. If. There's going to be some other intervention that slows it down or I don't know but it needs to happen. So I mean and that's why I want to get kind of the mining infrastructure prepared. Because when it happens it's just going to happen and nobody's going to be ready for it. So I mean coming from as a network engineer a network security engineer like you want to build a system that's secure ready to go. So when the load comes. It's just ready to go and it's safe and secure So for bitcoin the way I see it overall is like it needs to be highly decent. The mining needs to be highly decentralized so that there there are not attack vectors of like. Like say a political organization getting a bunch of big mining operations to like work together or shut down or do a 51% attack. There's a lot of things that can happen. But if it's more integrated into like so heaters all around the world.

 

01:04:34.85

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

01:04:43.46

TechEngineer

And nobody has control or now it's now it's more secure from my mind.

 

01:05:03.35

maxbuybit1

Definitely so. That's a concern for you as like this centralization of the mining. Um I think that's reasonable I mean you you only have to look through history to see that like these people will do pretty much anything to protect their interests. And it's not that hard when you you know these these big these big miners are sitting ducks basically and if they're threatened or co-opted or blackmailed or whatever happens to them. They will fold. Um, you know a lot of these. Guys are going to be very fee outminded. Not everyone is here to say right? fuck we need to do this to to literally like just to save the world pretty much is like a lot of people will be in it just to say well I want my profits and you know I'm I'm going to be too scared if I'm threatened and and I will comply and. And that's my fear with it with a lot of these bigger miners. So I'm totally with you. There is that um the more we can decentralize things the better and um, also like you know I don't like this move where there's this so much power going to a specific country. It would be nice. Um. Yeah, be nice to see it spread out a little bit because it was like you know everyone was worried about China having all the hash power and or majority of it then it's gone a lot of it's gone over to America and it's like well if if they're ah losing reserve currency status and. They're concerned about bitcoin you don't really know what they could potentially do.

 

01:08:17.18

TechEngineer

Yeah, and I mean I can see in the future I mean if if bitcoin becomes a standard like there could be ah, a war on bitcoin mining control like you control the blockchain you control kind of the world If that's the monetary standard like think of how.

 

01:08:52.97

maxbuybit1

Yeah.

 

01:08:57.22

TechEngineer

Impactful that is I mean and yeah I pose the question of um decentralization actually in a mining panel at um at a bitcoin conference recently. To 1 of the the big miners and I just kind of threw it out there that like this is my concern of um that I see that I want to see mining more decentralized and I did I did like his answer. He kind of said you know we need we need both we need small operations we need large operations I mean the large operations can scale can scale with the growth of the of the asset. Um, and he also said that it it is important to him to to decentralize and.

 

01:10:08.53

maxbuybit1

A.

 

01:10:39.38

TechEngineer

And they are decentralized from the perspective of having mines in multiple different countries in different continents in different power. Ah utility jurisdictions and that's that's a good thing I mean having having 1 big miner that has mines in 4 different continents. That's.

 

01:11:04.75

maxbuybit1

A.

 

01:11:20.75

maxbuybit1

Yeah, definitely.

 

01:11:18.44

TechEngineer

Somewhat decentralized um us but still if if you know in 10 years when you know if if a whole if the most powerful government in the world at the time says you know what minor I want you to you're gonna shut down or we're gonna nuke you like that. That's.

 

01:11:50.49

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

01:11:56.64

TechEngineer

That's the potential threat in the future. But if we have ah None heaters all over the world. It's it's a different threat.

 

01:12:17.77

maxbuybit1

Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, it's definitely um, a potential issue. The other thing that I've been saying to people um is you know with with all the crazy stuff that's going on in the world and and so many people who are struggling to pay bills and so many small businesses that have. Being forced to close with all the Covid nonsense and everything else that's gone on in the world and there's a lot of people who are pretty desperate and can but barely afford to keep the lights on and I've been saying wouldn't it make sense for some of these smaller businesses like you know like a small garage or someone who's who's barely surviving.

 

01:13:11.54

TechEngineer

And.

 

01:13:36.50

maxbuybit1

You can write off the cost of your energy and so effectively you can do like sort of pirate mining where you might need heat in your garage or your your business small business. And so if people are getting these old s Nine s or stuff the hardware. That's basically cost nothing um and they can write off the cost of their power Anyway, then suddenly these people actually become competitive because these huge mining operations get access to. Very very cheap money. They they have access to capital they they have lots of um options on like power contracts and generally they can drive their costs much lower because of economies of scale. But when you have these ah these smaller guys who are saying well I'm getting fucked from every angle. Can write off the cost of the power Anyway. So It's zero and I can get this old hardware for practically zero like it suddenly starts to become an absolute no-brainer and there are None of businesses like that around the world who could benefit from it. Um, so Like. You have any thoughts on that kind of stuff and um, how we could maybe make it a bit more accessible for more normal people. You know so they don't have the headache of worrying about setting it up and and understanding that this is actually potentially yeah. Could save them some money.

 

01:16:30.40

TechEngineer

So yeah, absolutely I do and I don't I don't know if you saw a recent post I did about my Tesla solar grid plus powerwall and how I'm using that to my advantage. Um, but basically the concept is. Um, dynamic dynamic power scaling ah to work around time of service agreements with power companies. So here in Nevada um, the highest. Power consumption usages between 1 pm and 7 pm when everybody is running their air conditioning. So the the power grid is at its at its peak need at that point. So what they do is incentivize. There's an optional payment plan that you can opt into as a homeowner to basically.

 

01:17:45.15

maxbuybit1

A.

 

01:18:11.86

TechEngineer

During that one to 7 pm period the price like quadruples. But then the rest of the entire year of the price is half price. So I opted into this this power plan and I get half price energy all the time except for this one time.

 

01:18:21.49

maxbuybit1

Here here.

 

01:18:46.31

maxbuybit1

A.

 

01:18:46.46

TechEngineer

And now all we got to do is use some automation and I actually use my Tesla power walls which are the batteries and I can actually I can actually sell power back to the grid at a much higher rate and reduce my consumption during the the peak time.

 

01:19:00.59

maxbuybit1

A.

 

01:19:24.20

TechEngineer

And what you're doing is essentially filling in the valleys of power demand for the energy jurisdiction and so for example, I'm I'm actually selling power back.

 

01:19:35.71

maxbuybit1

That makes a lot of sense.

 

01:19:56.34

TechEngineer

Between None and 7 pm for like ¢22 a kilowatt or Twenty Eight cents kilowatt hour and then the rest of the time I'm using power at like None a kilowatt hour so in my that's my jurisdiction but in general. Power jurisdictions have a problem of the peak demand is only a short period of time but they have to build their energy grid to meet the peak demand. So the rest of the time they just have empty space of of unused demand. So I want to try to integrate.

 

01:21:04.19

maxbuybit1

A.

 

01:21:11.86

TechEngineer

Further into that and basically miners can turn off and and on quickly and I mean riots riot released a video recently about how they're doing it in in their big minds. They're essentially powering down when when the Texas power grid needs.

 

01:21:53.71

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

01:21:51.64

TechEngineer

More power so integrating with with the the power companies will be good in general for the overall robustness of the power grid but also have the benefit of decreasing costs for the bitcoin mining.

 

01:22:15.95

maxbuybit1

Yeah.

 

01:22:29.26

TechEngineer

Because they can incentivize it in different ways.

 

01:22:41.37

maxbuybit1

Yeah, um, because yeah, yeah, exactly because you can overproduce and there's always going to be demand. Um, which which presumably then might incentivize them to create more power as well because they know that there's always someone who's going to be that buyer of last resort. Which is going to make everything run a bit smoother.

 

01:23:22.76

TechEngineer

Right? ah.

 

01:23:36.27

maxbuybit1

It's mind-blowing stuff some.. It's absolutely mindlowing. So Um I mean obviously mining is your thing but outside of the mining stuff is there anything else that your. Particularly looking at within bitcoin at the moment are you playing around with lightning. Do you mess around with them thing like that you into your privacy stuff or you just solely focused on mining at the moment.

 

01:24:23.84

TechEngineer

I am into everything I Just don't have time for everything so I would say so I've been focusing on these mining for heat projects. But I do run my own full bitcoin Node. I'm playing around with lightning privacy is very important to me Security is very important to me I have a lot to add into the space in terms of like network security. So like as a network engineer I'm able to build my home network in a way that is more like an enterprise. Network with security in mind different V lands. Um, there's a lot you can do to really secure secure things and then you can do things like use vpns and make your bitcoin node anonymous um and run an over tour. So I'm I'm.

 

01:26:07.99

maxbuybit1

Here.

 

01:26:15.92

TechEngineer

Doing all those things. Um I don't have enough time in the day to explore as much as I would like but those are that's that's the other aspect that I I want to explore more is kind of the the security side of of ah of bitcoin and bitcoin mining.

 

01:26:54.21

maxbuybit1

Yeah, well I Really look forward to seeing what you come up with there. That's gonna be more and more important for people who are mining at home and are putting more of their net worth into this and um privacy is something that we really really focus on with this show because. You know if shit hits the fan and people know what you're doing and ah, there's a load of have nots and people who can't feed themselves. You do not want everyone to know where you are and what you've got.

 

01:27:49.22

TechEngineer

And yeah, absolutely ah privacy is is a big concern to me and especially with how how the world has gone in the last year to 2 years and privacy is is so important now even more even more than before.

 

01:28:24.79

maxbuybit1

Absolutely well. Um, that's probably a good place to wrap things up I don't want to take too much of your Time. Youve got some awesome Stuff. You're building but I've really enjoyed chatting you and um so pleased to see that you're pushing this space forward and. Making some incredible stuff I'm sure loads of people will find it useful and um, as and when you you know start working on this privacy stuff and the home security stuff I'd love to him or I think that loads of people will benefit from that. So. Yeah, just want to say thanks for coming on and everything you're doing really? yeah, really do appreciate it.

 

01:29:40.00

TechEngineer

Thanks sounds good. It's been. It's been a pleasure and good to talk to you. Thanks Max All right have a good one.

 

01:29:50.93

maxbuybit1

Awesome or I may I'll speak soon.