Ungovernable Misfits

Share on social media:

WHAT'S THIS SHOW ALL ABOUT?

Bitcoin monthly is a show hosted by Max, Bitcoin QnA and Antomous Brother Rabbit. We cover important updates in the world of bitcoin and open source software. It is our imperative to provide some education along the way too, so that the misfits can expand their knowledge base and become more sovereign as a result.

We do this monthly to keep listeners informed without having to dedicate hours every day to keep on top of developments. We break things down in a simple and fun way and we welcome questions or topic suggestions via Podcasting 2.0 boosts.


Thanks for listening you Ungovernable Misfits, we appreciate your continued support and hope you enjoy the shows.

You can support this episode using your time, talent or treasure.

TIME:

- create fountain clips for the show
- create a meetup
- help boost the signal on social media

TALENT:

- create ungovernable misfit inspired art, animation or music
- design or implement some software that can make the podcast better
- use whatever talents you have to make a contribution to the show!

TREASURE:

- BOOST IT on the Podcasting 2.0 apps (https://podcastapps.com)
- STREAM SATS
- DONATE via Paynym @ https://paynym.is/+maxbuybit
- BUY SOME CLOTHING @ https://ungovernablemisfits.com/store/

OR

- MONERO

83H2AcSXfJv69K7SqPkBAcTVsEXXB84ppXviMmhHydyoXJxEyfavH3qRg3X6GufTRfYW4LF233w8bPbbDfqYeJdLC8vBv1D

AOB

• QnA trip to Oslo
• Passport 2.3.1 - https://t.me/nobullshitbitcoin/5559
• Envoy v1.7 - https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/envoy-v1-7-0/
• 2x multisig videos released
• New docs site launched
• P2P rights donation - https://x.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1800166090351301057

NEWS

• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/peer-to-peer-legal-defense-fund-to-defend-samourai/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/samourai-developers-first-court-hearing/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/eu-council-withdraws-vote-on-chat-control/

SOFTWARE & UPDATES

• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/stack-wallet-v2-0-0/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/cake-wallet-v4-18-0/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/cake-wallet-to-integrate-lightning-network-support/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/bitcoin-keeper-v1-2-7/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/btcpay-server-v1-13-2/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/zeus-v0-9-0-alpha8/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/peach-bitcoin-v0-5-0/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/phoenix-wallet-android-v2-2-3-ios-v2-2-5/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/bitkit-wallet-v1-0-0-beta-120/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/civkit-v1-alpha-released/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/umbrelos-v1-2/
• https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/bisq-v1-9-16/

SHOW SPONSORS


FOUNDATION - https://foundation.xyz/ungovernable
 
Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.
 
As a sovereign computing company, Foundation is the antithesis of today’s tech conglomerates. Returning to cypherpunk principles, they build open source technology that “can’t be evil,”
 
Thank you Foundation Devices for sponsoring the show.
 
Use code: Ungovernable for $10 off of your purchase

(00:00:00) INTRO 🖕🏴‍☠️

(00:01:42) PODCASTING 2.0

(00:02:30) THANK YOU FOUNDATION DEVICES 🤝

(00:03:59) Couldn't Care Less 💅

(00:05:03) Oslo Freedom Forum Experience

(00:09:22) QnA Becomes a Miner

(00:11:34) Passport 2.3.1 Adds Zeus Support

(00:15:17) Envoy 2.1 Adds In-App Bitcoin Buys

(00:19:29) Foundation Finally Has a UK Reseller

(00:20:21) New Documentation Website and Multisig Tutorials

(00:22:44) Samourai P2P Rights Fund Donation

(00:24:21) Right. Should We Do Some BOOSTS?

(00:32:21) FROST Multisig on Stack Wallet

(00:38:44) The "Shitcoin" Wallets Are Pushing the Boundaries

(00:41:43) Bitcoin Keeper 1.2.7

(00:42:33) BTCPayServer 1.13.2

(00:43:46) Peach Group Hugs Everyone

(00:46:12) Phoenix Wallet Adds Tips

(00:46:48) Bitkit's Official Beta

(00:47:53) Civkit Alpha Released

(00:49:57) Umbrel Has Wifi Support Now

(00:52:55) BISQ 1.9.16

(00:53:06) Couldn't Hack It In The Mines

(00:55:20) EU Chat Control Bullshit

(00:59:11) Is Max Still a Wanker?

(01:00:03) Are L2's the Answer?

(01:07:05) Wen Passphrases & BIP47 in Foundation Products?

(01:08:27) Privacy Preservation through Ecash?

(01:13:38) Simplex vs. PGP

(01:19:47) Ecash/Fedimint. The Good, Bad and Ugly?

(01:23:41) Liquid/Lightning/Privacy

(01:25:27) How Do I Know My Seed Words Can't Be Extracted?

(01:29:16) FROST? Check the Chapters Black Coffee FFS

(01:29:44) TF Is Up With BOLT12?

(01:31:49) Cheers Mate

[00:00:04] Unknown:

Bitcoin   is close to becoming worthless.  

[00:00:16] Unknown:

Now what's the Bitcoin?   Bitcoin's like rat poison. Yeah.   Oh. The greatest scam in history.   Let's get it.  

[00:00:27] Unknown:

Bitcoin will go to fucking 0. 0.   Alright, you ungovernable misfits.   I'm your host, Max.   Everybody knows that Bitcoin is useless, worthless and doomed to fail.   But what if everyone's wrong?   What if it's the system that is doomed to fail?   Join me as I speak to some of the brightest people in the space and slither to the deepest, darkest depths of the Bitcoin rabbit hole.   Welcome back to Bitcoin Monthly, the show you need if you wanna keep up to date with all of the developments in Bitcoin,   the things that matter   outside of the price   and the noise and the bullshit. If you wanna know about software updates, you wanna know how to use the tools,   keep yourself private and secure,   this is the show for you. If you've been listening for a while and you enjoy the show, we would really appreciate it if you can share this with friends and family   who might be starting to use Bitcoin   and help them avoid all the bullshit out there.  

There. Before we start, I wanna thank everyone who's been sending in boosts.   It really is incredible to see how this is growing.   I think 70 or 80% of our listeners are now listening on podcasting 2 point o apps, which is incredible.   And every time we get streams from sats or get sent in a boost or a question,   we really do appreciate it.   I also wanna thank all of the lightning disrespect   us. Some of you will not use podcasting 2 point o. You will not use lightning, but you are sending in pain in boosts.   That is very much appreciated. So thank you to all of you and everyone who's been buying the clothing,   buying the artwork, and sharing this show with friends and family. It all really helps.  

Finally, I wanna say a huge thank you to Foundation Devices.   Foundation Devices help keep this show running,   and they do things properly.   Everything they do is fully open source.   Their hardware   is absolutely beautiful,   and it is fuckwit resistant.   I use this all the time. I have no issues with it. I don't manage to break it like everything else. It is piss easy to use.   And that's what you want from your hardware. You don't wanna be worrying,   getting scared, and making mistakes   with your life savings.   You can use their companion app, Envoy, which makes labeling   very simple.  

You can do backups   that are encrypted, so you keep all of your labels.   Or you can use this with Sparrow.   It really is the best hardware out there.   And if you are scared to do this by yourself, you can go to any of the guides out there that make it very simple. They have them all on the website as well.   And if even that is too much for you, you can pay an extra   $99, and you can have Bitcoin q and a himself   hold your hand and walk you through the process.   Check out their beautiful new website at foundation.xyzed,   and use the code Ungovernable   for $10 off every passport you buy.  

Enjoy the show.  

[00:04:00] Unknown:

Good morning. Good morning. Yeah. Bright and early. How's it going? Very good. 2nd coffee of the day. Oh, nice.   Already starting to need a piss, but I'm gonna try and hold that in for this just for you. Well, looking at the list, dude, you might be holding it for quite some time. So I hope you're ready for a   a wait. How about you, mate? Going good. Can't complain. Well, into the midst of summer now, and it's actually warm in the UK. I don't know about where you are, but yesterday, I actually,  

[00:04:28] Unknown:

didn't feel cold, which was nice. It's beautiful. I'm already getting a tan. Looking golden.  

[00:04:33] Unknown:

Nice. Been watching the Euros?  

[00:04:35] Unknown:

No. You know when people say that phrase, they're like, oh, I couldn't care less, mate? That's you. But literally because people normally say, oh, I couldn't care less, but it's because someone's said something about them, and they do actually care, but they say it. I literally couldn't care less. Yeah. I I'm exactly the same. I don't even know why I brought it up, really. Just popped into my head, and I thought, It's just one of those things you gotta say as a bloke, isn't it? Oh, you're watching the Euros?   Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm fucking not. No. I I literally couldn't give 2 shits about it. Good. I do give 2 shits about your trip to Oslo, though. How was that? Oh, nice segue.  



[00:05:09] Unknown:

Yeah. Really good. So this was my 2nd year consecutive year going out to Oslo for the Freedom Forum, which is hosted by the Human Rights Foundation. Bit of a different, you know, not strictly,   a Bitcoin conference, but, it it it is kind of heading that way with the amount of Bitcoiners that were there this year.   So it kind of,   the reason that the Bitcoiners all attend, obviously, is that, you know, Freedom Tech, Freedom Money provides a tool for people in oppressed regimes   where one of the main things that happens to these people, you know, amongst many of the bad things is that they get financially oppressed, and they have their bank accounts frozen, etcetera. And, you know, Bitcoin provides them with a a relief valve or an escape valve to kind of continue with their daily activities   in a way that can't be censored or is much more difficult to censor. So there was loads of   different talks of people that   have been through, you know, what can only be described as a really terrible time in life, most of the time for no reason. You know, if there is a quote, unquote reason that it's kind of something like just putting your head above the parapet and trying to challenge the status quo where there's might be a an overbearing dictator in a certain regime. And, you know, obviously, if   you try to,   you know, speak out against that, then they they bring come down on you like a ton of bricks and make your life really terrible and some really, really harrowing stories   that, you know, I said this last year, I say it again, that almost brought me to tears many times. You know, people   literally, you know, just locked up, throwing away the key for, you know, just wrong think or speaking out. So,   a real slap in the face, but also quite motivating as well. You know, couple of these stories, they're not all obviously Bitcoin related, but there are a couple of these stories where Bitcoin has been used and is really is acting as a tool for freedom, and it's helped these people improve their lives or continue their course. So I always find Oslo for the both times that I've been really kind of invigorating experience and, you know, reinforces why we do what we do and why we're passionate about this Bitcoin thing.  



[00:07:13] Unknown:

Every month, we   complain about the state of the US government and the UK government and euro government generally. Mhmm. We have some shit things happening, but when you put it in comparison to the stories you would have heard I haven't heard the stories. I can imagine   what they might be like. Yeah. It kind of brings things into perspective, but also, I guess, a reminder of, like, this is why we fight so we don't end up with that shit happening for us.  

[00:07:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You've gotta you've gotta act before, you know, their power gets too great. And that seems to be a fight that's been had all over the world, whether it's, you know, openly   dictatorship or, you know, one that's done behind closed doors like in most of Europe. Yeah. It was a real wake up call. But outside of that, obviously, really cool to get to kick it with with some really, really cool Bitcoiners and people that are philosophically aligned. Finally got to to meet, mister Raw. So it was great to   finally shake his hand and and thank him for what he does. So that was great to share a beer with him. And, you know, there was just loads of cool people. It was just great to catch up with people in person. It's a completely different vibe Yeah. When you you sat sinking a few pints and,   Did you remortgage the house before you went? Because it's fucking expensive out there. Yes. It's it's not a cheap trip. Yeah. It's, very expensive out there. But as a city as well, like, I love Oslo. It just feels everybody's really polite. You don't feel like you're gonna get stabbed walking down the street. Everywhere everywhere's clean. Everything's efficient. Public transport's on time. Yeah. But it is, like, £36  

[00:08:41] Unknown:

for a sandwich.  

[00:08:44] Unknown:

Yeah. And and it doesn't, it doesn't go dark either this time of year, which I know that's kinda stating the obvious for somewhere quite far north in the middle of summertime, but I've been there twice now, and it still doesn't get any less weird, when you come out of a bar at midnight, and it's, like, still daylight. Yeah. They got the opposite as well where you can go not very north at a certain part of the year, and you just have darkness for, like,  

[00:09:06] Unknown:

months months. That would be so grim. Pay them a lot of money, though. They get paid a lot to go up there because no one wants to, and you just live in darkness.   Probably devs would do quite well up there, actually.  

[00:09:19] Unknown:

Yeah. They do that voluntarily.   In other news,   I am kind of a big deal in the mining industry now. I don't know whether you've heard. Oh, let me guess.  

[00:09:31] Unknown:

Is it small and sound on your desk?  

[00:09:33] Unknown:

I   have 1.1   Terahash.  

[00:09:37] Unknown:

Baller.  

[00:09:38] Unknown:

So I'm gonna mine a block, like, any day now.  

[00:09:42] Unknown:

I hope you're mining on ocean.  

[00:09:44] Unknown:

Absolutely not.   What you're doing, so solar mining.   Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Solar mining. Public pool. Just got 2 boxes just sat on my shelf behind me. Obviously, before everybody jumps in the comments, yes, I know they're not profitable, and, yes, I know I'm throwing money down the drain because, you know, electricity price in the UK are extortionate.   But, it's been a really good learning experience. I I Mhmm. Mining was one of the spheres in Bitcoin   where I hadn't really paid it much attention, mainly because I just knew it wasn't attainable for me because of, you know, electricity price and stuff. Mhmm. But, it's been a worthwhile experience   to to kind of get one up and running and learn about all the different metrics and efficiency and stuff. And it really brings to life some of the stuff that you and John talk about on the the monthly mining show. It makes a bit more sense now. Plus, it's it's just a nice little thing I've added to my OCD list now where I, you know, wake up in the morning, come into my office, and look at my BitAxes. And are they still hashing? Yes. They are. Great. Nice. Yeah. It's cool. I think it's good. Like, it's getting more people into it, and John will tell you this. Like, it's an addiction.  



[00:10:48] Unknown:

You start with a BitAx,   then it's 2, and then you're like, it's nice to have a couple of terahash, but wouldn't a couple of 100 be quite nice? And then it just   snowballs.   So I think a lot of people will get addicted to it. Most of the people who are in the pleb minor group, it's like part hobby, part business.   They really enjoy the tinkering.   They like to do builds and play around with immersion or what can I do with the heat, and it's it's like golf, but less shit?  

[00:11:20] Unknown:

I like that analogy. But, yeah, it it's been cool, and I'd,   urge people to to give it a go. And, yes, you're not gonna make any money, but, you know, loads of people buy lottery tickets. So I I like to just look at it that way and leave it running and see what happens.   Housekeeping news, we have a couple of releases this month. Passport 231   is now available. Some bug fixes, and we've added couple of wallets application support. So we've added Theia wallet export option.   So Theia, for those that don't know, is kind of Multi sig, isn't it? Yeah. It's like a collaborative multi sig with a very slick   mobile first approach. Their app is is really quite nicely designed. It was a a pleasure kind of, testing that out and working with them to get Passport implemented. So check that one out. We also have Coinbit's   export option, which is a US only based exchange, I think. They have added passport support so that you can kind of scan in your export and then, you know, not reuse addresses when you're doing your daily, weekly, monthly stack. You know, if you're a coin bit user, then you can now do that seamlessly into your passport straight to cold storage. Was that a slip of the tongue, or did you mean to do coin bitch?  



[00:12:30] Unknown:

Is that what I said? It sounded like it. It may just it may be me. It's like a Freudian slip. If you're a coin bitch user  

[00:12:37] Unknown:

that's a I might I might see if I can get coinbitch.com   if you could domain that.   And, yeah, the 3rd wallet that we've added is Zeus.   Very excited about this one. Evan, you know, anybody who listens to the show knows that we're big fans of Evan and the Zeus team.   Very cool app that, you know, predominantly   is for controlling your like, a remote control app for your node. But more recently, they've added support for, you know, an internal lightning node on your phone so that you don't need to run your own if you don't want to, and you're you're fine with the trade offs of that. Well, now you can connect it with Passport to manage your on chain wallets. And here's the killer bit. Once you've got it connected, obviously, you'll be able to see the etek codes and the coins within your offline Passport accounts. Mhmm. You can open and close lightning channels directly from the passport and back to the passport when you close them in a single transaction. So Zeus does all the magic in the background.   Obviously, you're still moving the funds into   whichever node you have connected, so it's they don't remain cold. But there's no more like, the previous flow was, okay. I've got cold storage apps. I've got a lightning node. I wanna open a channel. I send from passport to my Umbrel or my Vazpi blitz. That's 1 on chain transaction. Mhmm. Then I open the channel. That's another on chain transaction.  

And then the reverse is also true when you close it. So you close the channel. The funds go back into your LND on chain wallet. To get those back to cold storage, it's another on chain transaction. So 4 transactions in total for the life cycle of a channel. Now with Zeus and the Passport integration,  

[00:14:07] Unknown:

it's 2 transactions for the whole life cycle. So it's you know, you've halved your on chain footprint and cost. Which is kind of the whole point in the first place because most people are using Lightning to save on the fees. So Right. Exactly. Yeah. So if you're doing smaller amounts, and you're doing 4 transactions in a high fee environment, you might actually end up being worse off. So this is that's actually really big, and it's a lot easier and more simple. So  

[00:14:31] Unknown:

we like that. Very nice. Yeah. Definitely. And I believe that it's not just Passport that Zeus, supports in a in a in a similar vein. I'm pretty sure they do a couple of other calls storage solutions as well. So if you use any of the other options and you're a a zoo user, check it out. You might be able to save yourself some on chain fees. I need to speak to Evan again, don't I? It's been fucking ages.   Yeah. I got a lot of time for Evan just like the way he operates. Mhmm. He's just in the weeds, cranking out awesome updates. Never really gets involved much in any kind of drama. Just he just ships.  

[00:15:04] Unknown:

Yeah. I need to get him back. I really enjoyed chatting to him last time. I just haven't because I haven't been using lightning, but I'm starting to ramp up again now with all of the ungovernable misfit stuff. So I think it's about time. Let's make it happen. Yeah.  

[00:15:18] Unknown:

Envoy version 1.7 released just this week, couple of days ago. Headline is here. You can now buy Bitcoin directly   within the app via a a partner service that we now operate with called Ramp. Obviously, this is a KYC service, and the level of KYC that you will have to give depends on your jurisdiction.   Sometimes it's it's very little, and in other jurisdictions, it's an egregious amount. So Mhmm. Very slick user experience if you're, you know, happy with the the KYC trade offs. The cool thing here is that, you know, in Envoy, if you've got a mobile wallet and then you've got a couple of passport cold storage accounts all connected, you can buy Bitcoin once you've got this set up, you know, in a couple of taps directly to any of those accounts. No need to, like, copy and paste addresses. No need to leave Envoy. It's all just a couple of taps, and it all goes straight into whichever account you choose, and you can change between them at any point as well. So very slick, user experience.   We've also got signposts now and links out to peer to peer options. So we we showcase the more private options.  

Would love in the long term to kind of directly integrate those. I know a couple of them have APIs, but, obviously, that's a much bigger lift that, you know, would require a lot more work. We also now have a built in map so that you can search your local well, any area, but it will default to your local area   to find the nearest Bitcoin ATM so that you can go and get those, sweet no KYC sats. Obviously, the no KYC part depends on the ATM itself, but we will signpost it to anything that's listed on coinmap.org,  

[00:16:49] Unknown:

which is the map that's kinda driving that under the hood. Just to dig into that a little bit because I saw this posted on Twitter the other day. I was like, oh, that's really cool. And then I thought, is it cool in the UK?   Because   it's been a long time since I've used an ATM, and it used to be, and we're talking a while ago, that I could buy, like, I think up to £400   was the limit without any KYC at all with nothing. No phone number. No nothing if you just go and do it. I believe it's changed now to at least it's gotta be a phone number,   and then others are more. Do you know what the state is and if there's any that are recommended for people? In the UK? Well yeah. I mean   yeah.  



[00:17:30] Unknown:

So in the UK, I honestly have no idea. It's not really something I look into because I know for a fact that there's nothing within a reasonable distance to me. I think most of them are down in the London area. But obviously can't speak from experience in terms of what kind of,   information they require. I mean, we're in the UK, so I I I don't   I don't mind making a guess to say that they probably all require a driving license. Urine and something like that. Yeah. Exactly.   So I'd be very surprised if there are any nowadays where in the UK, that is where you can, get away with just a, you know, a throwaway phone number. One thing I do know, I know we have a lot of, American listeners, is that the coin flip machines in the US tend to be the most recommended from privacy conscious individuals where you can just   under I think it's $1,000 per purchase that you could just give out a phone number. That's pretty decent. Yeah. I mean, most people aren't stacking more than that in in any one hit, are they? Unless your name's Michael Sailor. So, yeah, check out the the CoinFlip ones. I believe they come highly recommended if you're stateside.  

Finally, just to wrap up the Envoy side of things, we also now have, a link out to Arteco Vouchers,   and you can also redeem Arteco Vouchers in the app, which has been in there for quite a while. The addition for 1.7 is that we you can now also redeem BTC pay server vouchers, which was a recent, update to the BTC payserver side where you can kind of if you're an in person merchant or online, to be fair, you wanna do refunds or you wanna do giveaways and basically just print your own version of the Azteca voucher from your BT Pay store where it obviously takes the funds from your b t pay wallet. You can print those into QR codes and hand them out for whichever reason that you see fit, basically. And Envoy will just scan that QR code, show you the details of the voucher, and then deposit it into whichever of your Envoy accounts that you choose as well. So just a simple QR code scam, and you can, you know, get those deposited   straight into the Envoy app. Very slick.  

What else have we got? Oh, still on the foundation stuff. There's a lot going on. We finally   have a UK reseller.   Long overdue.   But, yeah, if you're a UK Bitcoiner,   you can now buy directly from one of our partners,   which is the Ellen Bits team. Oh,  

[00:19:47] Unknown:

shady bunch.  

[00:19:49] Unknown:

If you go to shop.lnbits.com,   you'll, you'll see Passport listed there.   Obviously, they're a verified reseller. They buy direct from us. So, you know, there's nothing to worry about from a kind of security perspective. They are a well vetted and long standing company, probably longer than most, in fact, Ellen Bitts. It seems to have been rough as long as I can remember.   Great guys behind the team as well. Obviously, I won't dox any names, but I know a few of them personally and, you know, come highly recommended.  

[00:20:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I can confirm   Really, really decent, honest, proper people.  

[00:20:22] Unknown:

What else have we got? Oh, I'd launched the new support documentation website for all things foundation related. Been a long time labor of love in the background. I just gave the the documentation site a bit of an uplift and brought it more in line with the design prowess of our recently   updated main website as well. So it's, doesn't look like it's getting left behind.   And finally   oh, no. Sorry. Two more things.   2 new multisig tutorials   are out or will the second will be out by the time that this podcast is released.   First one is using Sparrow in a multisig setting with 2 passports and   a Blockstream Jade. Got the whole thing done, set up, backup, and spending in, like, 10 minutes.  

The second video, which is to be released, but, again, will be released by the time you're listening to this people, is a blue wallet multisync with 2 passports and a seat signer. Once again, the video is about 10 minutes for setting it up, backing it up, and learning how to do a spend as well. So trying to keep them short and punchy, but there's you know, there there there isn't actually much time cut out, like, in postproduction.   You can literally do all of what I've just said apart from waiting for, like, confirmation times on the on the network in, like, 10 to 15 minutes. I can now. That's pretty impressive.   And people say it's too hard and too tricky and all the rest of it. Well, obviously not. Testament to to the work that's gone on behind the scenes at all sides of that. Obviously, the signers and also the clients as well. Spiral and Blue Wallet make it pretty easy to get things set up and backed up. You know? So, hopefully, these videos will will show people, especially those that think that they need to take the next step into multisig, which, you know, as we've waxed lyrical about before is not for everybody. We can see that it doesn't actually need to be as scary as as some people might say. But, again, just wanna stress it's not for everyone just because there's there's a couple of videos coming out. Don't think that you need to go and or peeve your entire, self custody solution and kind of, move to multisync just because q and a said it was a good idea on on podcast. Don't do that. Definitely don't do that. Are they already out? The Sparrow one's out right now. The blue wallet 1 is just I just need to put the final touches to the editing. We'll probably be out later today, which is Friday 21st June for the listeners,   or it will be early next week. But, yeah, it'll it'll almost certainly be out by the time this, hits the feeds.  



[00:22:38] Unknown:

I'd imagine so. If you send me the links,   then I can put them in the show notes. Definitely. Click away.  

[00:22:44] Unknown:

Sorry to to carry on the the shield, but this is, a cool one and an important one. It's something I'm very proud of. Not that it come out of my wallet personally, but we have   contributed a I've done a 50,000,000   sat donation to the p2pwright.org   fund, which is the main fund that's backing the the samurai wallet defense. Obviously, we recognize, and we've spoken about this before, so I'll keep it brief. But we recognize it internally at Foundation and and obviously on this podcast as well that this fight is important for two reasons. Obviously, you know, I don't wanna see 2 individuals go to prison for the rest of their or big part of their lives for basically doing nothing wrong. But also that if that does happen, hopefully, it doesn't, that it's gonna set a huge precedent for the rest of the industry, which will affect everybody, including us at Foundation. So the contribution that we've made is to kind of support the the entire industry as well as just the samurai guys,   because this is a very important fight.  

So I was very proud that   we were able to do that. And, you know, it it may not seem like a a large amount of money, but, hopefully, it goes some way to helping support the guys' defense and, you know, getting them the best representation that they can so they can fight this.   Speaking with your stats, I love it. Oh, we also yeah. Sorry. I keep forgetting little tidbits of extra piece of information, but, we've we also had a promo code as well. So if you're buying a passport and use the promo code free samurai, it will automatically donate $20 of the proceeds of that sale straight to that defense fund as well.   So we're we're kind of giving away some of the profits. So, yeah, I just wanted to to bring that one up as well. Very nice, mate. Right. Should we do some boosts?  



[00:24:23] Unknown:

Hit me. Late stage HODL,   55,555   sats. Thank you both as always.  

[00:24:31] Unknown:

Thank you, late stage huddle. I appreciate you, mate. Yeah. Thanks, man. That's, a lot of sats. Appreciate it.  

[00:24:37] Unknown:

Brother Stack Toshi.   After binging on Govenable Misfits and going back a year,   I made the switch from Trezor to Foundation Devices and felt much safer.   I used the pod promo but never got the VPN.   But that's okay. As long as q and a sent Max some sats, it's all good. Keep up the great work.   We'll get on that. I don't know why you didn't get the VPN.   Queue. Any ideas?  

[00:25:03] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, firstly, thanks for for going back through the archives, and, also, thanks for, you know, choosing Foundation   to store your sats. It does mean a lot. Apologies for the mix up where you didn't get the free voucher. Yeah. You can either email me q and [email protected]   or just hit me up on Telegram or Twitter. Just need your order number, and I can look into that for you, but we'll we'll definitely be able to rectify that for you. Apologies.  

[00:25:25] Unknown:

Excellent. Right. So we'll get that sorted. And, yeah, thanks for going back a whole year. That's fucking cool. Appreciate you, mate.   Hash slutet.   Q and a actually using   join market.   I can't believe my ears.   Fair enough. Thanks for all you do.  

[00:25:43] Unknown:

Yeah. We got there in the end, didn't we, after talking about it for 2 or 3 years. Was it 35 months?   Is that how long this has been running? Holy shit. 37  

[00:25:55] Unknown:

37 months.   Jesus.   Wow.  

[00:25:58] Unknown:

Yeah. So covered it at length,   last month, but I haven't used it since because, well, for the reasons I stated last month. You know, chain fees have been   they haven't been as low as I would like, and joint market is very heavy on chain fees. So,   I've not done any more testing on it since. But, yeah, thanks for your support. Hash slottet. But you did it. It was an experience.   I finally did it. Yeah. Yeah. I I I did learn a lot, and and, hopefully, you know, the listeners were able to kind of pick up on some cool bits of information from it last month, and, hopefully, they don't get burned like I did with the fees. So Yeah. Might be a worthwhile exercise for for the others as well. You and Urban Hacker both got burned.  

[00:26:38] Unknown:

Rod Palmer, HODL.   No message, but 23,472  

[00:26:44] Unknown:

SATS. Thank you, mate. I appreciate that. That seems like a really random number. Is there significance to that one? I always look at the numbers of the booths. He's a creepy, creepy guy. So I'd imagine it's some sort of sex thing. I'll find out. It's like a signal to the devil or something.  

[00:26:59] Unknown:

I don't know about I don't know about devil, but it'd be some sort of kinky or weird   thing. Oh, okay. Something about smoking Marlborough reds with somebody part or it'd be some something weird with them. And I can tell you that for sure.   Oh, another weird guy, John.   I know who I want to take me home.   Warm orange tart sounds like a vixen.   Yes. She does, mate.   Expatriotic.   But, Max, we have cashew and feta mint.   I assume we were,   slagging off the state of privacy.   Yeah. I mean, that's gonna fix all our problems, isn't it, Q?  

[00:27:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. We fixed it. It's done. Just, we've done all these steps into a into a mint. Job done. We actually have a question on that later, so we can maybe get a bit more into the details.  

[00:27:47] Unknown:

Wave.   Fuck. I wanted to donate more.   Also, say Bitcoin,   not Twitter. I'm dumb, LOL.   Okay, mate.   Thank you.   Antimus dead, question mark.  

[00:28:02] Unknown:

Is he?  

[00:28:03] Unknown:

I fucking hope not. I love that guy. But he's quiet. Let's say he's quiet. I think he's got his head down   either building something incredible,   completely possible,   or   degenning.  

[00:28:16] Unknown:

Yeah. I think the latter.   He's probably being a fucking degen, isn't he? If you're gonna time those swings on Dogecoin, then you gotta be glued to, CoinMarketCap.  

[00:28:25] Unknown:

Right? You've gotta be up to date. Yeah. You gotta have your finger on the button.   Fundamentals.   Keep it real, brothers.   Don't bother reading this.   Just good. How'd you feel about that? That's how ungovernable Max is. Exactly. You tell me not to read something, it's being read.   Mister Crown,   I like the little change in the show format.   Good. I'm very happy that we make you happy, mister Crown. You make us happy every day with your beautiful art and keeping the website looking good, so I'm glad we could please you.   Bon,   picturing you and open arms sitting next to each other and you thinking in your head,   are we in the fucking matrix   here? As he's going through this join market instructions.  

Man, that made me seriously laugh out loud.   I was pretty pretty much made.   We sat in a dark little fucking shed while everyone else was playing in the sun, and I was just sat there, like, trying to work out what was going on. It was, yeah, weird experience. Is this at the beach retreat?   It was. Yeah. Nice.   He kindly   somehow got Internet down there, like, set everything up, did a talk for everyone, spent a load of time, like, helping everyone. And, yeah, in the end, it ended up like me and one other bloke, like, sat in a shed with him while everyone else, like, went kite surfing and stuff. So, yeah, I appreciate your open arms. Where is Open Arms these days? Do you ever speak to him? I've not heard he's very quiet on socials.   Yeah. Very quiet. I think he just gets his head down and does stuff. He's a real one, though. I love open arms. Yeah. Plus one to that.  

Wartime,   love the questions and answer format.  

[00:30:00] Unknown:

Good. I think people are liking it, mate. Yeah. I'm I'm enjoying it. We we we've got a a load of questions.   Ironically,   had no time to prep for most of them because they came in, like, an hour ago,   despite asking multiple times on socials. People like to wait till the last minute and keep us on our toes. But with that said, very grateful to everybody that's getting involved,   with Boosts and with questions. Very much enjoying this new format and working those into the the usual updates with the the kind of projects that we're interested in.  

[00:30:29] Unknown:

Solex.   Got to head back to RoboSats   for more sats to boost. Great work, guys. Follow-up question.   Who is visiting me in prison?  

[00:30:40] Unknown:

Oh, this is in reference to his boost from the previous month, I guess.   I think he says he's going straight to jail. Yeah. Yeah. I'll come and visit you. We'll probably be there, to be fair. That's true. Rev Huddle,  

[00:30:50] Unknown:

long live ungovernable misfits.   Continue to create harmonious signal music to the ears of Bitcoiners far and wide.   Pies, I'm not a marine. I got my pull up game from doing half a decade in prison.   Yo. I'm ungovernable mofo.   Thank you, Pies. Pull up game apparently is extremely strong. I tried doing one  

[00:31:13] Unknown:

yesterday, and, yeah, it didn't go well. Do you know what? I just realized. We didn't get any input from the the FFC, did we? Yeah. That's true. It's going strong.  

[00:31:23] Unknown:

Still an FFC,   Still a body disrespect tool. And,   yeah, I'll see what happens next month, but,   it doesn't look like it's gonna be changing.   Right. A couple more. A load of test boos from you and that fucking retard Lincoln Park rules.   Wave says, I can't recommend a better podcast than this one to stay up to date with current events on Twitter.   Also,   Max told me that he hired an army of whores to edit his videos because he left his coffee.   Cheers, guys. I have actually employed an army of whores, so more is getting done around here.   Southside.  

Everyone's a scammer. Enjoy the orgy with a condom.   Great   advice.  

[00:32:09] Unknown:

I didn't see that one in the list. That took me by surprise.  

[00:32:13] Unknown:

Right. Thank you everyone for the boosts. Really appreciate it.   We look forward to more questions  

[00:32:19] Unknown:

and more comments next month. Should we hit some, software updates and news? I think so. Yeah.   Okay. Stack wallet version 2 has now been released.   Stack wallet is not one we've spoken about at length before now, but they actually have 2 wallets. They have Stackwell,   just called Stackwell, and which supports Duo. Loads of coins,   Bitcoin included, obviously. And then they have Stack Duo, which is kind of a stripped down version, which does just Bitcoin and Monero. But this release, is Stack Wallet version 2, and it has support. Most specifically, the very first wallet to support, Frost Multisig.   Oh. We have spoken a little bit about this,   last   time   maybe,   but most specifically about Bitcoin Frost Multisig. But,   the TLDR is that it's like a new multisig standard where if you need to do a key rotation because you've lost one of your passports or something like that, you can do that without having to kind of completely reconstitute a brand new wallet with the replacement key. Obviously, you do do the key rotation, but you do so in such a way that you don't need to move your funds from the old wallet to the new one. All of the magic kind of happens offline, thanks to Taproot, essentially.  

Obviously, this is early support. Don't go put in all of your Bitcoin savings in there. It's very early, and I believe it's just software only. So you can only test this between, like, multiple copies of multiple phones, essentially. But very cool that they're pushing the envelope here. Quite ironic that, you know, many people on Twitter would call us a shitcoin wallet, not myself, by the way. Super ironic that these guys, these quote unquote shitcoin wallet developers are the ones that are pushing the envelope and doing all of the hard stuff first before all of the Bitcoin only wallets. So major hats off to the guys for pushing the envelope here and being the first one out of the gate. I've had a quick poke around. Obviously, I don't have that many phones to start making multisiges between my phones, so I wasn't able to go all the way and test it. But feels like a very kind of early beta. But, yeah, definitely, if you're interested in this sort of stuff and how linen how it works and how it feels for to have, like, a Frost Multisig and then do those key rotations without kind of, having to move any funds. Give it a go if you got a couple of phones.  

[00:34:23] Unknown:

Very cool to see. It's a very nice wallet. I haven't seen the update there.   When you're talking about Frost Multisig,   what springs to mind for me is, like,   maybe companies   might be thinking about using this. Would that be a good assumption? Like, you might wanna rotate someone out even if you haven't lost   that key, and then you wouldn't have   to move any funds?   Or am I looking at this wrong?  

[00:34:51] Unknown:

No. No. I think that's a fair assumption. I mean, generally speaking, if you hold a Bitcoin Treasury and, you know, you've got your key split between   5 founders,   that kind   of scenario is probably gonna wanna do more key rotations for the reason that you just said. You know, somebody leaves the company or a new person comes in or you wanna expand the Quorum,   that type of environment is gonna wanna do this type of thing more often, so would probably benefit from Frost more. But I'm sure when this is built, the infrastructure around this and all the hardware support is built out in   let's be honest. It's probably gonna be, like, 5 years that individuals will be able to benefit from this as well. But, yeah, I think, initially, it will probably be the institutions, and I can think that exchanges will probably use stuff like this as well. Yeah. So you could use it if you lost a key and it's just your own personal setup as well. Yeah. It's pretty slick. Do you think there's still a huge amount of work to be done for this to be more  

[00:35:45] Unknown:

used and supported by more wallets, or is it just like it's not that there's that much more work that needs to go into it. It's just maybe like a priority thing for people.  

[00:35:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Probably   a combination of both, really. For it to be useful, you need hardware wallet support, which isn't in any of them Mhmm. To my understanding right now. So you're like say, this this is software only, so you'd you'd need copies of Stackwell on different phone just to test this out. Most people   are not gonna do that for their cold storage. So, yeah, hardware wallet support first.   I guess the easier side of things to fix with which, well, probably doesn't need even need fixing that much is the kind of UX around it. We've got some awesome wallets, Stackwell being one of them with, with great UX. And multisig   is kind of it's not that new anymore even in a mobile You know, we've got Nunchoke, Keeper, Bluewall. They all do with multisig with pretty good UX. So the fact that it's a Frost multisig under the hood doesn't really change all that much. You know, there's probably a couple of new screens that would need to be built out around rotating keys and stuff. But, again, that's kind of a a a problem that we already have and and is already fixed. So I think mainly, it's more of a hardware wallet support type thing.  



[00:36:54] Unknown:

Okay. For you guys, for example, is it something where you would look at it you might not know the answer to this, but is it something where you'd look at it and go, we could do this if we threw,   you know, the next month at it? Is it something like that, or is it more that you're just treading carefully because it's something newer   and   you're not a 100% sure until it's been out in the wild for a bit? How do you think about that as a company that creates hardware?  

[00:37:20] Unknown:

It it's always that chicken and egg problem, isn't it? But, yeah, speaking from a through a foundation lens,   yeah, we could absolutely look at this and and estimate the time taken to to to add support. Don't speak for the developer team. I mean, it's it's not up to me to to make these decisions. But knowing how we operate, we would look at this and think, right. It's very early. The standards are still   kind of I wouldn't say they're still being worked on, but they're kind of still very new and they might have some tweaks. As a small team that's, you know, time constrained, that's trying to do a lot with very little resources,   we wouldn't look to to kind of explore something so new that probably doesn't have any user   requirements right now. We would kind of sit back and wait to see how the market unfolds. But, you know, that could be looked at as a bad thing because, like I say, it's chicken and egg problem that if if all of the companies had the same viewpoint, then, you know, adoption would kind of take longer than maybe it should do. But it's it's always that thing of, you know, you gotta be very critical where you spend your resources. And, you know, we've got customers that we know want things that are well established that we know we can implement that will get much more used than this today.  

Obviously, that's an ongoing thing that we do on a weekly what? Daily, weekly, monthly basis. We're always, you know, scrutinizing the market, seeing what customers are asking for, what the the latest trends are, and and kind of working ourselves up and down that spectrum as to where we spend our time. Yep. That makes sense. Cool. Next, another   ironically,   air quotes, shitcoin wallet that's pushing the boundaries before a lot of the, the Bitcoin wallets. Cake Wallet has added silent payments.   So this is very cool. And I think we we did go with silent payments last month at length. So if you're wondering what the hell I'm if you're wondering what I'm talking about, go ahead and, like, listen to, last month's episode. But, yeah, k quality version 4.18   has, now been released to the public, and you can now have a reusable   silent payment code, which is an on chain reusable address essentially within your cake wallet. So very cool to see, and and once again thankful that they are pushing the, the envelope and and, you know, clutching at the straws of what's left of Bitcoin privacy. So very cool to see. And   they also alluded to the fact that they   are looking to integrate lightning,   I think on an LSP model, using the Breeze   SDK.  

So,   before long, you know, in in the space of a couple of months, KQL is very much kind of jumped onto my radar for a couple of reasons.   You know, it has,   multi wallet support. It it has Monero, and, they're gonna be adding lightning. They've got silent payments.  

[00:39:55] Unknown:

So they kind of, like, all popped onto my radar very recently and kind of jumped very high up the list of stuff that I I would like to try. I'm gonna give them a go because I know they've been around for a long time because all the sort of Monero users that I've known for a long time, they've used it, and them adding these bits and pieces as well. Like, if you have lightning   and Monero   and silent payments   all in one thing, you're like, I could do some cool stuff with this wallet. Yeah. Definitely.  

[00:40:22] Unknown:

I,   I am going back and forth with their support at the moment. I found a bug in switching wallets that's kinda preventing me from going a little bit further in testing it and providing a bit more feedback. But, they seem pretty responsive on GitHub and stuff and open to to the report. So   the only thing I would say about Cake Wallet, and this is very, very minor, and you can absolutely change it, Their default color choice in the UI is   offensive.   It's like this multicolored   fucking   pink thing,   and it just looked god awful. I have got no idea who thought that that was a kind of design decision.   You can change it in a couple of taps, so don't let that put you off from trying it. And I think they've got quite a a number of different themes as well. Oh, fuck me. Yeah. You see what I mean? I'll tell you what that looks like.  



[00:41:11] Unknown:

It looks like a 4 or 5 year old little girl's birthday party.  

[00:41:17] Unknown:

Yeah. And they just, like, the adults just dropped all the crayons on the onto the table and and just told them to go mad.  

[00:41:22] Unknown:

Yeah. No. That's a horrible and offensive design, but we can't let that stop us if they've got good features. They've got loads of other other UI choices that you can make. There's dark modes. There's light modes. So, yeah, just poking a bit of fun. Well, cake wallet, if you're listening, love what you're doing. Don't like the design choice, but everything else sounds great. So   Yeah.  

[00:41:44] Unknown:

Okay. Bitcoin Keeper version 1.2.7   has been released. What's new here? We have file based communication enabled for all supporting devices.   Canary Wallet, they've added action cards and notify you of key use.   And they've updated the health check UX   for all types of signers.   I have no idea what Canary Wallet is. Do you?   No. I don't. K. A bit of homework for me to go and check on that. I'm I'm guessing by the name I'm gonna make a public guess before I go and check it that it's gotta be some type of, like, maybe a time lock thing. On. Yeah. Like a time lock thing maybe, where if if the time lock runs out, it will send you funds elsewhere or something.   I could be completely wrong there, so I apologize to the Keeper team. But, yeah, once again, they they seem to feature every single month. They're always pushing updates. So Mhmm. Yeah. Good to see. BT pay server version 1.13.2   has added support,   a new plugin for the bulk cards. Presumably, you can charge   oh, here we go. Create top up and check bulk card balance from all of your BT pay stores. Point of sale devices.  

That's pretty cool. So the bulk cards are like an a lightning NFC thing. So you can now just kind of tap to pay like you would with a credit card for any merchant that has a BT pay terminal. So getting closer to to that kind of Visa experience without the Mhmm. Without the middleman. So, once again, BT pay server features every month. You know, probably one of the best projects in the in the entire space in my opinion in in terms of what they enable and what they've done for the space. So, cool to see that they've they've added that support as well. Yeah. Something that we use internally, a foundation every single day.   All of our, Bitcoin payments run through BT Pay Server.  

So,   yeah, very cool. We talked about Zeus earlier. They've now released version 0.9,   alpha number 8. They love their alpha releases at Zeus.   Layout changes, pending HCLC views, and more. What else have we got? Yeah. Just some   other support for, hardware wallets, which we've talked about at length earlier in the call. But once again, hats off to the Zeus team. I have a question for you on this next one.   Peach Bitcoin version 5.0.   The title is group hug for everyone.   What the hell is GroupHug? Any ideas?  

[00:43:57] Unknown:

Absolutely   no idea.   Group hug.  

[00:44:00] Unknown:

I'm gonna bring you on the journey with me, because I'm just about to read read the release notes. Group hug is a transaction batching service that allows users to save on Bitcoin transaction fees.   It does not require coordination between users in order to work.   Interesting.   Okay. This does mean Is there Hang on. Privacy concerns there? This does mean that payouts will take slightly longer than before. However, we believe that, that, again, our users want to start start with a low time preference. And if we can save them fees by delaying payout slightly,   users will be happy.  

Yeah. Privacy concerns? That's the first thing that kind of,   jumps to mind here.   But I guess,   again, just jumping to conclusions here. But, obviously, Peach is a peer to peer service.   If your   withdrawal or part of that transaction is being batched with other peer to peer purchases, then   gotta be at least an additive, right, instead of it just being 1 person?  

[00:44:54] Unknown:

Some respects,   yes, and some no.   It's more obvious that it's coming from   a service like that, potentially, especially if it's a large batch. I guess it'd be kinda more obvious. I suppose you're probably not gonna be doing  

[00:45:09] Unknown:

particularly large purchases on peach, but, you know, if someone went in there and, like, bought a a huge sum of Bitcoin and then had it sent out, then someone might then go, oh, okay. This person's got x, and then maybe try and find a way to them. I don't know. But Mhmm. I don't know. It just it a little bit of an alarm bell goes off, but I I guess if we sat and thought about it, maybe not. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a a net benefit if you're a peak user and and the fees are going through the risk. You know, if you're if you're part of a batch, it's gonna cost you less to withdraw. So so, obviously, that's the the main kind of, benefit here. So very cool to see and, you know, good to see that they've they've implemented this, and and I'm thinking about the the user experience because Peach is still on chain only, which makes   you know, can make things pretty expensive in high fee environments. So good to see that they're coming up with solutions.  



[00:45:59] Unknown:

Especially when   Peach is more smaller purchases,   generally.  

[00:46:04] Unknown:

Yeah. I think they cap it at  

[00:46:07] Unknown:

€1,000, don't they? Okay. That's still pretty decent size actually. Oh, yeah. Yeah.  

[00:46:12] Unknown:

Phoenix Wallet version 2.2.3   on Android and 2.2.5   on iOS has been released.   On Android, they've added buttons who easily add a tip when paying over lightning. That's pretty cool. I'm not seeing that one. Okay. They've improved payment error messages.   They have added new messages regarding liquidity,   and they've added the screen to spend expired swap ins. And I think iOS is pretty much the same   apart from oh, you can now have a PIN code that is specific to the Phoenix app. It would it doesn't just default to your phone's kind of operating system PIN code if you have one set.   We have a couple of new releases   coming up. Bitkit Wallet has now officially launched after being in beta for what seemed like an eternity.  

Bitkit, for those that are not in the know, has it's an on chain of lightning wallets that kind of operates, I believe, on a single balance where everything is kind of   mashed into 1. The reason I bring it up here is that I had a very, very quick poke around just to see what the UI looked like, and they did a sterling job. Whoever the designers are behind this, it's a very, very beautiful mobile application.   Have no idea how well it works,   but, you know, purely from just going through the onboarding just to see kind of,   I guess, see what the competition's up to. Like, they they nailed this. I'm a big, big fan of their UI, and it's very, very normally friendly.  

Seems as though this,   I know it's just been released, so this might be a little bit critical, but it seems like it might be lacking on more of the advanced features. I don't think there's any Tor in there or anything like that yet. Okay. So probably not one for the privacy,   individuals, but definitely one to keep an eye on because, it seems like they have some good design prowess on that team.   Mhmm. Sifkit   alpha has been released with peer to peer order book, escrow, and p to p sorry, PGP chats for trades.   So Sifkit is a is a relatively new project that's aiming to do a pit to pit marketplace that I believe   is   lightning   native and also   uses the Noster   network   for the order book.  

That's about all I can tell you right now because   this is one of my pet peeves, and this is me being a privileged   little asshole probably. But they've released the alpha, and I'm just not clever enough to build it from source. So I can't really tell you how,   how good it is or how what the UI is like because, you literally have to build it   from source. So it just it does make testing it and providing feedback quite difficult for non technicals like us.   But, yeah, another one that I'll be keeping an eye on and kind of, just you know? Because the the premise is cool. It's it's essentially Robo Sats but without a centralized order book from what I can read at least. Mhmm. So, it'd be cool to see if they can kinda get that over the line and kind of,   make it a usable product because,   we need more solutions like that.  



[00:49:00] Unknown:

Yeah. I love that you say nontechnical  

[00:49:02] Unknown:

users like us. It just shows the levels to the shit when you consider yourself a nontechnical user. Yeah. It it's it's all relative, isn't it? I I suppose. And yeah. The yeah. That's a fair comment. But,   I got really excited about this because I read the headlines. I'm like, oh, peer to peer marketplace,   the Lightning. This sounds like it's right up my street. And then they're like, yep. Here's the GitHub, and then you go go to the to the assets bit, and there's nothing there. And it's like instructions to build from source. Right. I'm like,   oh, absolutely. I I could probably do it if I spent, like, 6 hours hacking away at it and then poked a load of the developers internally in Foundation to help me with it, but, like,   there's no time to do that sort of stuff. So Yeah. There probably is some actually technical people listening to this going, you're a fucking retard. Just follow the instructions, and you'll be able to do it in 5 minutes, which is probably true if you know what you're doing. Yeah. There will be. There will be, for sure. And to  

[00:49:52] Unknown:

you, well done, you smug little cunts.  

[00:49:57] Unknown:

Umbrell OS version 1.2 has been released.   This may be of,   some importance to many listeners. They now have   Wi Fi support,   which for the longest time, nodes connecting via Wi Fi has not been a recommended thing, and probably for good reason. Yeah. Probably.   For obviously, for stability. You know, you want your node to be connected all the time. You want it to be stable, and that's why most people say plug it into an Ethernet cable. Fair comment. But Yes. Sometimes, especially in recent years or months, should I say, these node packages   are are in hardware that   looks good. And if you're a little nerd like me, you kind of want it more than likely in a position where it's not in the corner of your front room right next to the wall so you can plug it into the to the router and hide it under the sofa or something like that. Like, the some of these note boxes look really good now. Tanto being a prime example. Yeah. I wanna show it off. And I can't because of, you know, where my my router is and where you know, just the layout of the house and stuff. Do you know what I'm gonna do for you, mate? You might not know about this, but there's these things called cables. You can get them in different lengths. So you could actually run one under the floor or through a wall. You can chase it. You can do whatever. It can pop out where you want it, plug it in, and then you can have your beautiful node shown to everyone.  

If you think I'm ripping up my laminate flooring or drilling holes into my wall just so I can have my node on the show, then you're severely mistaken, sir. Also, I'm gonna do now is activate Wi Fi.   Okay. Fine. So, yeah, Umbrell OS version 1.2. Loads of bug fixes, loads of, enhancements and performance improvements, but the headline here is that Wi Fi enjoyers can now enable Wi Fi and then show off their note box if they want to. Very nice. I'll add in as well. I'll give a shout out to Umbrel  

[00:51:46] Unknown:

even though they're not open source, and I don't like that. But fuck me. It's the only node I've ever had that's been completely stable. That's just the honest truth. I run it on a   shitty old Raspberry   Pi. It's been unplugged and just switched off at the power and not shut down properly a 1000000 times. It's moved, I think, 5 different times with me to different locations.   It just works.   It's not open source. It's not the best for privacy. All the rest of it, I understand, but it's fucking stable. So respect to them for that.  

[00:52:19] Unknown:

Yeah. I I also have one tucked away in a corner mainly because, some of the consultation calls I do, 99% of the no questions are about Umbrel. So it makes sense for me to have one running so I can reference it. But, yeah, that that thing's been bomb proof as well. Or or with that said, I don't kind of use it all that much. But,   from a normal perspective, you know, if you're just getting into running a node and you you want Mhmm. You know, you're you're  

[00:52:40] Unknown:

trapped in the apple walled gardens, then this will feel very familiar to you. I've just kept mine running for when my other ones go down, which happens. And then I'm like, fuck. What do I do? Right. Well, I'll connect to this. Okay. It's still working. Great. It's bomb proof.  

[00:52:55] Unknown:

BISC version 1.9.16   has been released. Just a small release, improved network resilience and stability.   What else have you got? Yeah. That's pretty much it. Shout out to the BISC team.   Have you got any any other news or software releases, mate?  

[00:53:12] Unknown:

I unplugged my miners.   Oh.   Not really news, but too unprofitable now. I just the amount I was paying for energy, it just wasn't worth it. Just unplug them. They'll sit on a rack somewhere.   I'll wait and just   see if maybe   something crazy happens with,   prices of a 6 in the next 6 months to a year. And then if that happens, then I'll sell them.  

[00:53:37] Unknown:

Nice. What were you running? What hardware is it?  

[00:53:40] Unknown:

300 Tera Hash machines.  

[00:53:43] Unknown:

Nice. You know what you wanna do? Get them shipped back to your house, take all the chips off them, put them on some PCBs, and sell them, and call them Max Axes. No one would want them though, would they?  

[00:53:56] Unknown:

Because electrical fires.   Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm not doing that. But, no, they're just gonna sit there because, you know, sometimes that happens. Sometimes   the price runs.   People can't get their hands on a 6.   The prices of these things goes   fucking crazy.   And then, you know, if they're sat there, you can sell them. Because right now,   s 19 Pros, which is what they are, I think we've got a 296   terahashes and 100 terahash machine. I they're worth, like, a couple of $100.   Really? Is that all? Yeah. Yeah. Like, when I bought them, they were worth, like,   worth, you know, there was, like, $10,000   a machine.  



[00:54:36] Unknown:

Jesus.  

[00:54:37] Unknown:

Yeah. And so I'm like,   what am I gonna do with these things? Like, it's too expensive to ship to me. It's, like, cost more than the fucking machines to ship it to me. So   someone has kindly in America said, you know, just don't worry. Like, I'll I'll put them on a shelf for you, and I can sell them for you if if something happens. So I'm just kind of like it's a bit of a gamble where I'm like,   I'll just fucking wait and see.  

[00:55:01] Unknown:

Yeah. That's a rough situation.   The, from from the little I know about mining, you know, now that I'm an I'm an expert with all that, all those terahashes.   The market always swings, doesn't it? And I think, it tends to to follow,   the price of Bitcoin as well. So I'm sure there'll be another spot where you can you can offload those bugs. Yeah. That's the hope.   One tangential   item that I just wanted to to raise some awareness of before we get to the questions.   Are you be following this,   EU   chat control   bullshit?  

[00:55:31] Unknown:

I'll be honest.   I keep seeing you   write about it,   and then I go to click on it to look at more info, and I think   I have enough problems in my life at the moment. I don't wanna feel sad. Genuinely, I just think, like, I don't wanna see this because I know it's bad. I know from the tone of your tweet that this is gonna be particularly bad, and I just don't wanna deal with it. But now I have to because I'm speaking to you now, so fill me  

[00:55:57] Unknown:

in. Well, it actually ends with a very, very small win, so it's not all doom and gloom yet.   But the the TLDR here is that, basically,   the bureaucrats in the EU,   ironically,   what have they called themselves? The innovation hub.   Right. Are basically trying to backdoor all encryption chats   that are active in in Europe, essentially.   So, basically, the the the little goblins   probably in Brussels, I guess, that's where they seem to hide. Basically, just wanna read all of your chats so you can't have any privacy.   So this affects   the obvious private apps like Simplex or Signal.  

Mhmm. But then it also affects   Facebook Messenger,   WhatsApp, all of that then to end encrypted.   They wanna backdoor it because won't somebody think of the children, Max? Exactly. You gotta think of the children. Yeah. They'd be fighting for this. It was going to a vote this week to see whether it was gonna pass. Many, many companies have already said, look. If this passes, we're just gonna pull out. Like, we're not gonna backdoor our stuff. Signal being very vocal about this and great to see. It was supposed to go to vote, I believe, on Wednesday or something like that, and I think there's been a lot of uproar understandably about this. And either because of the uproar or that plus a combination of they realized that they didn't have enough support for it internally to pass the vote, They've postponed the vote presumably so they can do some more internal networking and get the other goblins on board to to get this passed.   A short term win for now that has been pushed back and, you know, it seems like it's not gonna be a landslide vote. But,   once again, if this does get passed, like, of what this means for Europe, oh, god god knows because there was a great article by Lololites who has a new kind of blog called The Rage. She's got some great write ups on this. And, basically, she said that that, you know, this doesn't just apply to chat because this could apply to any form of encryption. So if you,   are funds of blockchains that have got, like, 0 knowledge proofs and all that sort of stuff, the law that's getting passed here could be applied to all of that as well. So it's not just a case of we wanna see your chats. It's like we wanna break encryption everywhere.  

And it's just so   horribly egregious. It's it's analogous to   this is not my analogy.   I've read it on Twitter somewhere, but it's like putting a surveillance camera in every house in the land just in case somebody does something naughty at home. Yeah. You can't trust the citizens.  

[00:58:18] Unknown:

It's like, you wouldn't stand for that, would you? I don't know. You wouldn't stand for that. I don't know. I think a lot of people would. I think people put actually put these cameras in on their behalf.   I genuinely think that we are just the minority, and the majority of people   just   nod along. And I don't think that they think deeply enough about, like they're like, yeah. Well, you know, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide. You know? You gotta save the children, not the ones that we're dropping bombs on, but the other children.   But it is worrying. It is scary.  

I don't know what we take from this other than  

[00:58:53] Unknown:

Let's take the positive. Right? We have open operating systems like Graphene where you can side load applications. Yep. And we have free and open source applications,   like Signal, like Simplex that you can run. And unless somebody has stood over you, they cannot stop you installing it. Good points. Beauty of open source.   Alright, mate. Question time. Here we go. How do we go? Do you wanna read them, or do you want me to read them? What's your ticket turns? I think you read them. I do the boost. You do the questions.   Sounds good to me. I'm gonna read the first question, and I'm gonna let you answer it because this is the most important question of the lot. And it comes from our good mate, Ben Gunn, on Nosta. And he  

[00:59:32] Unknown:

asks, is Max still a wanker? Of course he does. Fucking Ben Gunn. I can confirm, mate. Always have been, always will be. That's why we're friends. Gotta pass the time somehow, I guess. Exactly.  

[00:59:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Hi, Ben, by the way. We need to go for a beer soon. He's one of the worst blokes you'll ever come across.  

[00:59:49] Unknown:

He's so into his Nosta stuff. He's one of the people that badgers me all the time about Nosta. Oh, you're a Nosta yet, mate? No. I'm not. Shit. You fucking should be. You're fucking brilliant. I love that. That was quite a good impression, actually. That's exactly what he sounds like.  

[01:00:03] Unknown:

He did, have a a genuine question as well. He said, are layer twos   closest to the solution on private TXs now? Not sure whether he was stoned when he wrote that question. He said, grammar's   chronic.   But, I think I get what he's trying to ask. Basically, it's layer 2, which essentially also have that's working right now,   is Lightning. Mhmm. Is that the closest solution to a private transaction right now? Fucking hope not.   What's your take on this first before I dive in? I fucking hope not.  

[01:00:36] Unknown:

No.   Lightning for sending is pretty decent   if you open a channel   with   post mix, which isn't really possible anymore unless you already have some.   And it's terrible if you're receiving   and   not really know. People are gonna get really annoyed with me for this, but I'm thinking that maybe the layer twos are not actually   the answer right now. We don't have anything, and maybe it's actually   going out to the side if you need some privacy and then coming back in.  

[01:01:07] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. This,   again, I think we we kinda covered this a little bit last month, but it's something that I've reassessing my own personal   approach to things lately and been considering layer twos and alternative solutions because   the obvious and the best one just got kneecapped.   I think, yeah, spending on lightning is kinda like my default at the moment whenever I need to spend because of the the kind of guarantees that,   it gives you from a privacy perspective. But Yeah. As always with all of these layer twos, you've gotta get in there somehow. So you still have to interact with UTXOs.   You still have to obtain them, and you still have to get them to a lightning node somehow. And depending on how and where you do that, there's various different trade offs. If you just if you're just buying a a UTXO on Coinbase and then sending it to WalletSatoshi,   then you don't have great privacy. Yes. You might have better spending privacy from then on. Obviously, not from WalletSatoshi because they see everything that you do. But   it it it's a difficult one because there's so many different ways that you can kind of approach this. But, yeah, I think from a a spend perspective, it's good. But, you know, you've gotta think about this stuff holistically and think about how your UTXOs are getting   to that layer 2 in the 1st place because that you   can quickly kind of,   shoot yourself in the foot or or tell yourself that you have more privacy than you really do at that point. But, yeah, I guess you could look at it as to draw an analogy with CoinJoin that if you do get the the Sats   into your lightning node, you can look at it as having good forward privacy from then on because the the the transactions will be quite difficult to to track across the Lightning Network due to its kind of,   don't wanna say stateless, but, you know, there there's no permanent record there, is there? So I think it's it's definitely one of the best solutions that we have right now. Could we  

[01:02:50] Unknown:

say that   if you have a UTXO   that you can open a channel with   on your own node and use only for spending   on lightning.   That's pretty good.   And for receiving,   don't ever receive there. That would be   very bad.   What about this as a solution?   Have   a phone   router level VPN and then a VPN on top of that, and then you   have something like Graphene running on it. You download   something like Wallet of Satoshi   onto that phone. You'd have to use whatever it's called, the,   like, spoofing thing on f droid, and then you receive to that. Because   even though   Wallow, Satoshi   would know that know everything that you do, they don't know who you are, and then no one outside of that does either because it's kind of like a massive   sort of custodial mixer thing, and you just don't keep a lot in there. I know that's kind of, like, not the thing you're supposed to say, but wouldn't that kind of work?  



[01:03:57] Unknown:

Yeah. You you said a lot of words there, and I kinda got lost   I think.  

[01:04:02] Unknown:

You're like nothing that you said just makes sense. Like, you fucking retard.  

[01:04:06] Unknown:

It sounded a bit Rube Goldbergy to me, but   I think I know where you're heading. And and I think the thing I keep coming back to with this is like, everybody always asks like, oh, what's the best privacy thing? Or is you know, am I private if I do x or y or zed? And it's like, always answer answer the question. Who are you trying to be private from? Yeah. Right? Good point. If you wanna get privacy from Coinbase,   then, yeah, if you spend   from, you know, your deposits Wallace Wallace, and   then spend from Lightning,   Coinbase don't know where your spends are going. So you've got privacy from Coinbase, but then you've just moved the needle a little bit, and now you've got no privacy from Wallace Satoshi. So it's like trade offs all the way down, and you've gotta think about the entities that you're interacting with, what information can they see on what you're doing, and which is the most important for you to have privacy from. Because to try and achieve perfect privacy,   right now with the tools that we have available, you either end up spending   loads of sats on fees   or you end up   building a Rube Goldberg machine like the the little, ramble that you just went on where you've got, like, VPNs over VPNs and Tor inside your back pocket. And I know I'm being facetious here, but you get what I'm trying to trying to say. Can I just explain that in a more simple way?  



[01:05:20] Unknown:

What I'm saying is for receiving,   if you were to have a separate phone   that's running something like Graphene   and you only connect   over Tor or over multiple VPNs   and you were   to have something custodial like wall of Satoshi   that you download and it's not linked to your identity in any way because you're doing it over VPNs at all and you only receive   to that, so you only have Lightning receive,   that is not the worst option.   It's a better, more private option in my opinion than it would be to receive   to the same wallet that you send from because then you're giving away a lot of information that you probably shouldn't. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That makes a bit more sense. I think the extra phone is is kind of overkill, especially if the just just have a separate wallet on the same phone. And just as long as it connects via tool, then you could achieve the same thing. Just seems like overkill to have have it all set up. This is true. It's just like, you know, if you've got old phones kicking about and you think, oh, I just wanna use this just that that's what all I'm thinking. Because a lot of people might say, oh, well, I don't wanna have this on my daily driver. They might be using iPhone or whatever, and then it's like, okay. Well, I've got this this thing in the drawer. I can run it on an old Pixel 3 or whatever they wanna do. It's, like, 50 quid. And then it's just you know that that's separate,   and you know that only is used at home, and you're not gonna suddenly forget to have the VPN running because it own is always running, and you're not gonna fuck up. That that's more the thing. Yeah. I'm with you. But I get it. It's comfy. It's fucking annoying. It's shit. It's it's not easy. It's not good. 99%   of people are gonna make mistakes and fuck up, myself included, because it's really hard. So that's the state.  



[01:07:05] Unknown:

Okay. Next question from Twat in TSB.   You sent this with a 50,000 sat boost. So thank you very much, sir or madam. Question for q and a. At the end of the next episode, I spun up the an Envoy wallet the other day, and it was really slick. Thank you, sir. But when will I be able to add a passphrase to it? BlueWallet recently added send functionality to their bit 47 implementation.   Did not know that. Did we cover   that?   Don't think so. Oh, okay. That's cool.   And is this on the Envoy roadmap? Passphrase   will be coming   later this year. It's already built and designed. We just kinda need to do the implementation thing. It it is on the short term roadmap.  

And bit 47,   is it on the Envoy roadmap? Yeah. More longer term at the moment. We're kind of just waiting to see   what the support for silent payments looks like as well because we kinda don't really wanna do both. Mhmm. Because that could be pretty confusing from a UX perspective. So we're kinda just seeing how that goes over the course of the next,   couple of months or so before we make a decision on, you know, which one we wanna prioritize first. Mhmm. Not saying we couldn't do both if both continue to to gain continued use, but we're kind of just you know, it goes back to what we said before around small team being and picking your battles. So definitely something that we're considering, but, would be unable to give you a timeline on on the bit 47 stuff. Okay.   Rev huddle sent his question with a sats boost of   12121.  

12,121   sats. Thank you, sir. What are some good high oh, okay. Here we go. What are some good hypothetical privacy preserving ways to earn Bitcoin utilizing eCash to lightning to cold storage.   Earn via ecash, send to lnchannel,   send on chain via Submarineswap,   then send on chain to cold storage,   utilizing thresholds to minimize risk and reduce fee burden in future, ending up with 500 k to 1,000,000 site UTXOs in cold storage.  

[01:09:04] Unknown:

Another Roob.  

[01:09:07] Unknown:

Yeah. How do you say it? Rube Goldberg machine? Rube, r u e e. Rube.   Yeah. Just Google it on images, and you'll see what I mean. So he wants to go from e cache to lightning to cold storage. So again, right, all of those hops   are gonna add complexity.   They're gonna add fees, and they're gonna add time, and they're gonna add piece of information that you're sharing with either the Mint Runner, the LSP, if the Lightning channel is with an LSP, the submarine swap provider when you go from Lightning to On Chain, and then you hit the chain after that. So   I'm not saying that that is a bad approach because   with each step, you're kind of distancing yourself from   this journey here. It starts by earning e cash.  

So with each step that you add,   you're kind of distancing yourself from whoever it was that paid you. Yeah. Although you could argue that if they paid you an ecash that, you know, that is a pretty good privacy level in the first place.   But well, I was gonna actually suggest that why do the custodial pay upfront because you could just get paid in lightning. But then we come back to the the issue of, okay, well, how do I receive privately? Yeah.   But to go back to it, okay, let's say I receive I'm earning and I get paid in Lightning   to my Phoenix wallet or to my Zeus wallet. Alright. I'm a node runner. Okay? Goes straight to my node. Not wonderful. You know, this person that pay pays me can see my node and my UTXO. But then the next step on this journey from Rev Huddl says I'm gonna send on chain to using a submarine swap service. The person that paid me via ln wouldn't know that I've done that because they can't see my lightning channel payment. So I must so that brings me back to, is the e cash part necessary? Probably not. And you could do that all the way down the chain. It's like the chain of events is what I mean, not the the blockchain.  

I'm sorry that I don't kind of have, a kind of   definitive answer for this because there's a lot of moving parts there. The thing that jumps out to me would be, do you need to do the custodial bit upfront?   Is it additive from a privacy perspective?   Yeah. Potentially.   But is it worth the trade off where you could just go straight to Ellen and still get good privacy from the person that's paying you anyway? I mean, that would probably be my initial assumption.   What's your thoughts?  

[01:11:19] Unknown:

Yeah. I would probably agree with that. There's a lot of jumps and hops and fees and   everything there. I think maybe it could be cleaner.   You could just receive in Lightning, and you could either do a submarine swap, or   you could do a swap to XMR and back, or you could do   that that   it also depends what you wanna do. Are you saying he wants to have the sats in cold storage? Yep. Otherwise, what you could do is say, alright. Well, if I wanna spend some of this, then maybe   I could receive in lightning,   swap out to XMR,   and then purchase gift cards using that. And that would be, like, a 1% fee, which is probably the same as submarine swap anyway, and then there'd be less fees on the purchase.  

You would get your gift cards or whatever you want to do your shopping or pay for your petrol or whatever.   That would be a different use case. But for what he's saying, I don't think he's probably far off. I think that's probably about as good as it gets.  

[01:12:16] Unknown:

Yeah. And and just to take my ecash hat off for a minute and and look at it from another perspective, just a reminder, we've got ecash to lightning channel, lightning channel to submarine swap, submarine swap to on chain to cold storage. Yeah. Lot of steps.   The e cash enjoyers would say, well, you don't need to send it to a lightning channel. You could go straight from e cash. The way that e cash works is when you send between mints or out of the mint is it's just a lightning payment. So you could go straight from the e cash mint to the submarine swap service. Yeah. And just miss out the bit where you send it to your own airline channel, and you probably still got good levels of privacy. So there's so many different ways that you can cut this. And the bit that is   annoying to me is that   it's so hard to get a gauge on kind of measuring   how successful or how private something like that would be   versus   I was in Whirlpool. I put my UTXO in. I'm one of those 5 people. Yeah. Yeah. I mixed again. I'm one of those 9 people. I mixed again, and it just grows exponentially. It's measurable. It's easy. I can just look at numbers on the screen, and I know I can get a good feel for okay. That's good to go to cold storage.  

Now   we're it's just a   a sign of the times that we're even having these conversations of jumping through all these hoops to try and gain a good level of privacy. So Well, we had fill at stake, and now we've got spam, basically, is the case.   That's a great, summarization.   Wartime sent a boost with 3,333   SATs. And his question was, What's the difference between simplex, encryption type, and PGP?   Would simplex   also quick question quick diversion. Simplex or simplex?   Simplex.   Simplex.   Would simplex be better since it uses double ratchet, which is more secure in the event of key leaking?   Whereas if your PGP keys get leaked, they can read all your conversations with that key. Good point. Yeah. I I think you summarized it beautifully. There's not really a great deal much more than than I can add, to be honest with you. Yeah. Simplex,   and I believe Signal as well, and I think a couple of others of these private messengers use what's called double ratchet encryption,   which basically means that   your chat history isn't leaked if one of your recent keys is leaked. Now how one of the recent keys would be leaked is kind of I'm I'm not entirely sure because the way in which these apps work is that you you generally have, like, one big master secret to,   to back up. I I guess, yeah, if that got leaked, and then, you know, the attacker inserted it into another instance of simplex   or or signal,   then they wouldn't be able to pull up your your message history. So that's kind of the the beautiful part of the double ratchet encryption. Mhmm. Whereas, yeah, if you've done everything with manual PGPs, if your master key gets leaked and the attacker has access to your encrypted messages   wherever, you know, whether that's via email or something,   then, yeah, everything that you've ever said is completely pwned.  



[01:15:09] Unknown:

That's true. What I was wondering with that though is, you know, if you're sending PGP messages, you're sending that, like, message block.   Most of   the time, whenever I've used it, I'm sending that over   different   apps and different places. It's not like all those blocks are stored and messages are stored in one place, if that makes sense. Because you can chuck them anywhere. So it'd be, like, in a group message,   you know, from 3 months ago, and then it would be over text message or email   or whatever, wherever it is. So it's not like they're all stored in one place and someone goes, right. Okay. I've got your PGP   key. Now I'm gonna just read all your messages because they're all just stored in this one place. So I get his point, but you can probably answer this as well. So I still would prefer   using PGP   only because   I'm not smart enough to understand what's completely under the hood of Simplex,   and I know that I'm still relying on their server. I don't run my own instance because   much smarter people than me   who have run it have had problems, and they're like, oh, fucking hell. I just revert back to using theirs. So I'm still if something's really sensitive, I would still sway towards using PGP rather than that because I don't understand   what's being stored and how and all the rest of it. So can you answer that a bit?  



[01:16:31] Unknown:

Yeah.   Fair fair concern.   With the simplex stuff, The way I understand their architecture is that, yes, you can run your own server, but the way in which that they manage all of the the metadata, like who you're talking to, when you're sending your messages.   Obviously, they don't see Max is talking to q.   They see simplex user is talking to this simplex user, But they handle that metadata in such a way that even   the default server   doesn't learn that type of stuff because they do it through   hops and they kind of pause the traffic and, you know, all of this stuff is I'll openly be open and honest and say that it's way above my head. But my understanding is that they handle that metadata   very cleverly   so that even if you are using the default server that you're very private. Obviously, your chat chat are end end to end encrypted, but also your metadata is very well protected.  

So I personally wouldn't have a major issue in well, I do use the default server. I've never run my own Simplex one, and and it's not really a big concern to me. Okay. With   yeah. So so for me, that's just not a big concern. So you'd feel just as comfortable  

[01:17:38] Unknown:

if someone says to you, alright. Can you send your personal address or you wanna send, whatever. You send something that would reveal some personal information.   You'd feel just as comfortable using Simplex as you would with PGP.  

[01:17:52] Unknown:

Yep.  

[01:17:53] Unknown:

Okay. Interesting.   The experience   of using simplex is   way nicer than PGP. Oh, yeah.   It's not even in the like,   simplex is not as nice as Telegram,   but it is Or Signal. Or Signal. But it is   a 1000000 times nicer than PGP. PGP is   fucking horrible to use. It's great. Like, don't get me wrong. It's an amazing thing, but, like, fuck me. Every time I do it, I'm like,   like, sending test messages. No. If I definitely got I'm not sharing my private key, am I? I'm this is definitely my public key. Oh, yeah. No. It is. Okay. Right. How do I encrypt this message again? Oh, I do this. Right. Now I got right. And now they're sending it back to me right now. It's just fucking   horrible. It is horrible. And I don't think you can send, gifts, which is a major problem for me because I, you know,   I like to,   communicate   language, isn't it? Pretty much. Yeah. Because I can't speak or read or write. So GIFs is the way forward for me, and I can't do that with PGP. So, yeah, big problem.  



[01:18:55] Unknown:

And, just to to kind of pad out my answer as to why, you know, to your previous question of why I would feel comfortable doing that is,   again, open source. Right?   Do I think that the simplex client   is,   has had, you know, 100 of 1,000 of eyes on it. No. Probably not. But I know that at the very least, it's gonna be a handful of people that would have checked the core claims of the app. I   is the the chat end to end encrypted? Is it encrypted before it leaves this device? Mhmm. I'm almost   certain that that would have been checked by multiple people, if not, you know, hundreds of people. And that's kind of the main important thing for me. It's an open source client. I can verify the binaries. I can check the hashes,   and I am very, very safe in the knowledge that at least a couple of very clever people would have checked the basics here that is it encrypted before it leaves my device. Mhmm. So that's good enough for me.  

Next question, I'm gonna let you take the lead on this one. Tommy,   501-07317   on Twitter said, ecash   /fettimint.   Good, bad, or ugly?  

[01:20:04] Unknown:

I don't   I think we're fairly aligned on this. Like We are. I don't   love that it's custodial,   effectively. I don't   necessarily love the amount of hype and the way that it's being pushed because usually things that are sort of pushed in that way end up being quite shit.   I feel like it's sold as, like,   we've won kind of thing. Like, this is gonna solve all our problems, and I think it's far from that. But   I do think it's kind of cool in some ways and has some use cases. Is. And if you chuck it into a rube   Goldberg machine, which I just looked up, it's, yeah, if you chuck it into that mix, it's probably got some cool shit you can do with it. So I don't know. It's,   I don't think it's bad. It's not ugly. It's just, like, it's a very   it's distinctly   average.  

That's what it is.  

[01:20:59] Unknown:

Nice.   Yeah. So so my take   depends how you frame these things. If you look at it through the lens of this is a bank that you have good level of privacy from, then, yeah. Pretty cool. If you're okay with using a bank and giving up custody of your Bitcoin to somebody else who could rug you right now if they wanted to, and you're okay with that, with the amounts that you wanna use, cool. Go and go ahead and use that private Bitcoin bank because that's what these things are. Look that through any other lens. Doesn't really make much sense to me. And the open question that,   I get some shit for asking, but is nobody's given me a kind of good answer to yet is not what it's gonna be. In today's regulatory environment,   who is gonna run a public mint? Yeah. Very good question.  



[01:21:41] Unknown:

Excellent question.   But if people are gonna run the mints,   it is a big improvement in my eyes compared to a custodial   lightning wallet like Wallet of Satoshi. If you say, like, which is better out of these 2,   no question. It's better. It's it's much better. It's a big improvement. And let's be honest,   like, 80% of Bitcoin Twitter and the people that are on stage at conferences   and doing gay little fucking TikTok videos and sharing all this stuff in El Salvador doing silly little dances and buying pupusas.   Most of those idiots   are using Wallet of Satoshi. And when they're telling people about Bitcoin, they're telling them, use Wallet of Satoshi.  

That's what these people are using.   So, actually,   for those people, this is a a massive improvement,   and it is most people. So   maybe it's good. Maybe we're being more critical than we need to be because they're never gonna be doing the things that we're doing and talking about the things that we're talking about because it doesn't make good viewing. It doesn't make good TikToks. They need to be short and sharp and snappy and easy.  

[01:22:51] Unknown:

Yeah. The the other thing to consider here is that often, Fettimint and   cashew type products get lumped in together because they both use the underlying eCash   technology. Mhmm. But for me, they're very, very different, and they have very, very different trade offs. Like, one like, the the Cashey model is single sick, where one person holds your Bitcoin for you and provide you with a service. Not good.   Or the Fedimint model where, you know, there could be up to, you know, 15 different signatories.   That's a distinctly different trade off model. Yes. You're still giving up complete custody, control of your Bitcoin. Again, not a good idea. But if you're okay with that trade off, I'd much rather trust   10 or 15 people I've got to collaborate to Rogueportme versus 1 person.  

So there is a distinct difference in the trade off model there that's also worth considering when you kind of have this conversation.  

[01:23:40] Unknown:

Yep. Agreed.  

[01:23:42] Unknown:

Jocelyn   Newey on Nosta asks, thoughts on liquid lightning and privacy?   I think I think we kinda covered most of this. Liquids, you can kind of just lump it into the previous conversation and class it as a Fedi Mint. That's basically what it is. I'll probably get a shot down in the comments for that. But, you know, it's a a multisig where you give up custody of your Bitcoin. You get a different asset,   and you can then benefit from the properties of that asset. You know, fast transaction, cheap, blah blah blah, all of the same things. They're they're all in the same boat to me. So if you're if you're comfortable with giving up custody of your Bitcoin to take advantage of those, you know, go for it. Can I say something really controversial?  

[01:24:22] Unknown:

What is the fucking difference   between something like that and just swapping out to another chain? You are literally   paying a fee   to go into   another asset   with another name and another token that behaves differently   to what you currently have, and then you use that in the way you want to use it,   and then you go back into Bitcoin and pay a fee to go back into Bitcoin.   What's the fucking difference? It's got a different name and, like, you can be like, yeah. Yeah. I'm, like, totally Bitcoin, man. You can do all that stuff. You can say those things,  

[01:24:58] Unknown:

but you're still doing the same thing. Yeah. No. Absolutely fair comment and quite ironic that the pushback that some a solution like that gets where, arguably, some of these other chains that might be interesting to people for different benefits   would be more decentralized and obviously, self custodial versus giving up custody of your Bitcoin to get hold of a liquid token or a or a, e cash token.   Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny that that gets so much pushback. But, yeah, once again, we're we're very aligned there.   Up only BTC on Twitter asks how to know our seed words cannot be extracted from a hardware wallet like Coldcard.  

Well, I guess,   unless you're a cryptographer and you have the ability to kind of attack these things, which basically nobody does, then you are trusting people   that built the devices   and built the secure elements on these devices of which, you know, this is a multibillion dollar industry. Like, they're not just these things aren't just thrown together. Decades of of experience has gone into these putting these devices together, and more specifically, the secure the secure elements on these devices   to be built in such a way that they are very, very, very resistant to   even very complex   attacks. So, yeah, there's obviously trust involved unless you're a a cryptographer or a, you know, a hardware engineer that knows exactly how secure elements work. But, you know, it's these are long standing things, and secure elements are in everything, you you know, including your phone   and are very well tested against  

[01:26:25] Unknown:

common attacks. And tested openly. Well, I'd add to that that other hardware wallet companies do attack each other and spend money   to try and extract seeds.   If they can do it,   then it's very good for them to do it so that they can say, oh, well, this one's shit. You should use us. If there is vulnerabilities   and these things are easily attackable, like, I think Trezza was pretty trivial to extract Yep. For a long time. I don't know if that's still the case, but then these other hardware wallet companies are gonna talk about that because they're gonna say, well, don't buy from them because it's shit.   Buy from us because we're good and and vice versa. So you can kind of be relatively safe in the knowledge that these things become public quite quickly when things can be extracted.  



[01:27:12] Unknown:

Yeah. If you wanna kinda learn a bit more and see what these kind of attacks or tests look like, have a search for Ledger Don John. Ledger is one of the the companies that literally spends 1,000,000 of dollars kind of, attacking these things. You'll see the level that you need to go to. The thing I wanna sign off with here is that to give a very critical answer that to how to know if seed with cannot be extracted.   Every single hardware wallet,   no matter who makes it, is vulnerable to attack. The crucial part is   how resistant   or or how how much money and how many hours do you need to try and attack this device before you can get close to extracting a secret. Yeah. You know? And the short answer is, most of them, you need 1,000,000 of dollars worth of of equipment, and you need   unfeathered access to the device in a very controlled environment with a lot of knowledge.  

So they are more than good enough Mhmm.  

[01:28:05] Unknown:

To protect you against, well, obviously, common attacks Yeah. Or even very, very, very complex ones that cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. Yeah. You need lasers and a lot of time and equipment. And I from what what I've heard before is, like, even with all the equipment, you could potentially try and do it, and then you cause too much damage.   Yep. That is exactly what I was about to say. It's not even like, oh, they can do it every time. It's like sometimes they can and sometimes they can't. And the other thing I'd add to it is, like, if you're really paranoid and you think, right, for whatever reason, someone with 1,000,000 of dollars is gonna come after me and try and, a, find the hardware wallet, b, then try and extract the seed.   And even if they did extract the seed, we'll maybe just put a passphrase on top of it anyway because then that would mitigate against that. But even in that case, then it's like, well, maybe create the seed on the hardware wallet   and then maybe wipe it and then store that somewhere else in a different way where they're not gonna be able to get hold of it. So there are ways around it. Yep. All multisig as well. All multisig. Apparently, there's some good guides coming out on that. There are. Yeah. I think, if you, yep, you listening on Fountain, if you scroll down and check out the show notes, they might be there for you. Oh.  



[01:29:17] Unknown:

Misterblackcoffeeonnostar   asked   what the user who's who's that? Asked what the Frost user experience is like on Stack Wallet. Well, I think we covered that earlier.   The reason he asked that is, him and I were talking about this, not so long ago. We were about to to try and test it out, and we just hit some networking roadblocks. So, we had to we had to call it a day, but, yeah, covered it earlier, mate, and hopefully, I'll I'll have chance to to give a a poke around in the next month. Last one, Just Brian, also on Nosta, says, Bolt 12,   I'm confused. What's in the wild and what's planned for the future? For example,   I can make a bolt 12 offer, but is it private slash unenrouted?  

Or as of right now, is it exposing my public node when I use an offer?   Okay. So bolt 12,   quick recap is the kind of reusable   code for lightning.   Currently only in   core lightning. Lnd are still messing around with Taproot assets and all that bullshit to to implement cool stuff like this. What's in the wild? Not a lot unless you like delving into the command line. I believe there's no web UIs for this just yet. So it's not gonna be accessible to   the average normie, myself included.   And on the privacy side of things, this does not hide your your node. The way that this works is essentially   the person that wants to pay you via your Botox offer,   uses this kind of, I guess, you could call it like a a rendezvous point, and your Vault 12 offer is essentially a signpost to your node so that they know where to go to speak to your node through the lightning network to then request an invoice to pay. So it doesn't hide your node. You know, there's other, things afoot for that. But,   this is more for it fixes the problem of, you know, you needing to   run, a BT pay server with a web UI   so that you know, and host that web server so that somebody if they wanna pay you, they then have to go to yourbtcpyserver.com   and say, okay. I wanna pay in lightning with a bolt 12 offer.  

You wouldn't need the the web server side of things. You could just have a QR code with your Vault 12 offer in your Twitter profile.   And then the compatible wallet will just scan the QR code, and then all of the communication then is done   by their wallet application   through the lightning network to your node. So it kind of removes that need for for a a web server for the payments. It's just a a kind of signpost to say, I'm just Brian. Scan this QR code, and you can find what you you'll you'll know where to find my note and ask it for invoices.  

[01:31:50] Unknown:

Very nice. Is that all the questions?  

[01:31:52] Unknown:

That is all the questions.  

[01:31:54] Unknown:

We covered sort of the same topics a lot there. Feels like everyone's   thinking the same sort of thing.  

[01:32:00] Unknown:

Yeah. Everybody wants to know about eCash because everybody's talking about it. Nobody knows what the best privacy route to go from buying to cold storage is.   And,  

[01:32:11] Unknown:

everybody's still waiting for bolt 12. Yeah. So, yeah, you're probably right there. Okay. Well, if that's everything, we'll wrap it up there. We'll get editing and get this out as soon as possible.  

[01:32:21] Unknown:

Any other bits to cover? Nope. Just wanna say thanks again to all the boosters and the question givers.   Really fun part of the show and really do want to, keep it running. So if you're listening and you have a question, send it in.   Oh,   and, free samurai.  

[01:32:37] Unknown:

Of course. Free samurai. There might be something dropping in a few hours related to that. Looking forward to it.   Alright. Cheers, mate. Speak to you soon. See you, mate.   Thanks for listening. I really hope you enjoyed that.   If you get value from this show,   please do consider sharing this with friends or family.   It all helps us grow. And if you haven't yet checked out ungovernablemisfits.com,   go and have a look. We've got articles.   We've got podcasts,   clothing,   artwork, and much more.   If you have any questions about the topics we've discussed   or you have any other topics you'd like us to cover,   you can boost us. You can tweet us.  

I think you can nostril us, but you have to do that through q and a because I can't be arsed.   Catch you on the next one.