Back on the Chain

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Jason
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READ THE FCKING BOOK!!^^

Intro: Back on the Train - Phish 09/13/25 Birmingham, AL
Alternate HD Video 04-18-24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cySKvPB62k
Outro: Roses are Free (Ween cover) - Phish 04/03/98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkHjnoex2gU

Backing Track: String Cheese Incident 07-23-10 Red Rocks, CO https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3FF7BFB0275FCD64

Other Mentions:
Christmas - Blues Traveler, A Very Special Christmas 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBGiQBLLuiE

In this episode, we welcome Dan from High Hash Rate for his first podcast appearance in a year, and we waste no time diving into why the show mattered, why it paused, and how the culture has shifted under the weight of AI slop and performative internet discourse. We trace High Hash Rate’s origins as a stoned, idea-first antidote to price talk, the joy of making a cohost crack up, and the awkward frictions of creative goals versus commercial incentives. From Prague to Red Rocks to backstage at Blues Traveler, we wander the jam-band map—String Cheese, Panic, Umphrey’s, Ween—and connect it to Bitcoin’s meatspace ethos, the Sphere’s uncanny VR immersion during the halving, and why real experiences still surprise you. We talk TV-raised generations, trolling in the dial-up era, Zappa-to-Ween lineage, and how a culture of ubiquitous access turned everything into slop—unless you show up, contribute, and risk being vulnerable in person.

On the Bitcoin front, we get practical and philosophical: UTXO scarcity, why ETF rails are effectively a layer two for casual users, proof-of-reserves tradeoffs, and how Bronta’s payment verification mirror helps prevent address-swaps and man-in-the-middle attacks. We unpack the current governance kerfuffles through Gamehendge, argue for better in-person debates, and admit that “it’s not fair” is a seductive but empty frame. Maybe the fourth turning’s throughline is simple: find the signal, build resilient culture, and keep showing up—at shows, at meetups, and in the conversations that matter. Also, a pro tip for festivals and life: don’t buy drugs from the only guy on the beach wearing tennis shoes.

[00:00:24] Unknown:

When I jumped off, I had a bucket full   of thoughts.  

[00:00:45] Unknown:

A little worried about it, but,   it looks like we're wrong. We're back on the chain. Hey. Back on the chain.   How's it feel to be back on the chain?  

[00:00:56] Unknown:

I gotta book it for both spots.  

[00:00:58] Unknown:

Who's that? I'm this is my   this is my first podcast in, like, a year almost. I I feel rusty.  

[00:01:06] Unknown:

Yeah. You're rusty. You this is good. I have been wanting so badly. I think everybody would know this. I've been wanting so badly to get you   on a podcast.   And Well, you just had to ask. I think the first time he asked, I said yes. It's true. It's it's true. I think we like, on this particular podcast, we hadn't,   we hadn't really done too many we hadn't done any guests until we had Grafton on. And ironically,   we blamed Grafton for ruining   High Hash Rate.   By the way, Zach on the train with us is,   is Dan.   Dan from High Hash Rate.  



[00:01:44] Unknown:

Nice to be on.   It's definitely not Grafton's fault. Don't blame Grafton. Grafton was a great,   great interview. It was,   talked about I think that was the first It wasn't the first time we talked about jam bands on High Ash. Right? But, it was probably with the   well, you're probably the most,   you know,   appreciative, but   he's definitely   a close second.  

[00:02:09] Unknown:

Mhmm. Dude, he came on with us. It must have been three in the morning his time.   It was. And he just just kept ripping bowls and hung in with us for about two hours.  

[00:02:20] Unknown:

I thought he was twisting up cigarettes, but they were he told us later they were joints. I was like, damn.  

[00:02:26] Unknown:

But that was good weed  

[00:02:28] Unknown:

in Prague.  

[00:02:29] Unknown:

That's what I was I think it's super illegal. I was just in Prague.   Oh, it's super illegal. It's super illegal, but apparently, not everyone has weed and doesn't care.  

[00:02:40] Unknown:

That that's about sums up reality these days. Right.  

[00:02:43] Unknown:

Prague's an interesting   the Czech Republic's an interesting place because,   they,   dude, they just passed a law like making it illegal to, like, promote communism.   Which kinda sounds cool except you shouldn't need a law for that but like that's interesting. Don't you think?  

[00:03:02] Unknown:

It's interesting. It   seems like it's very easy to get called communist. So   like, is how do you how do you determine what promoting communism means?   Oh. I mean, I'm not like, I don't wanna promote Marxism or anything. Like, how that  

[00:03:18] Unknown:

but I don't know. Well, there was I only thought about this because I happen to find out in my daughter's   school. This is really fucked up actually.   But,   they had a Asian history class   and I found out that the teacher actually taught it and taught Mao as like a fucking hero   and had a big picture of Mao and like,   like it was like special and,   you know,   ornate   And You just found how did you find this out? I found this out just because, like, I drive I do a lot of driving around, like, basketball.   I do a lot of the driving with a lot of the kids in my car.   And,   this was so I'm like, my daughter's in eleventh grade   and   but we had a ninth grader in the car and was talking about how she just got through that lesson, and my daughter was like, Oh, did you see that big picture of now? And   she was like, yeah.  



[00:04:17] Unknown:

What the fuck is up with that? I was like, I thought, don't you just follow Libs at TikTok? They they would have told you that your kids will learn about Mau   years ago on Twitter. Well, this is this  

[00:04:29] Unknown:

is a fucking school that was created to oppose to oppose communism.   And, it's pretty fucked up. I'm pretty salty about it right now.   And,  

[00:04:40] Unknown:

did you say something to the teachers?  

[00:04:42] Unknown:

Well,   I, if you've   you might remember   from Rock Paper Bitcoin that about two years ago,   I had a fucking   problem that I ended up talking to the Dean about,   which was, he   had all the teachers read this book called Stolen Focus,   and I rage read it, and it was like this like, this book was, like, 1%, like, stop letting kids be on devices and, like, 99%,   like, fucking Marxist propaganda.   And so I complained I complained about it and I was like, dude, I actually have a suspicion that teachers are teaching communism. Like, I don't know why you're having them read this book. Like, it's not a good   idea. Right? You require it. You're endorsing it.  

And,   we had a big argument about it.   And now two years later, I come to find out,   fucking, my Mal is being glorified in  

[00:05:37] Unknown:

in class. How's your gut? Is the dean of your kid's school Tim Walls?  

[00:05:42] Unknown:

No. He's actually,   you know, he's cool. He's the one who   just   decided to accept Bitcoin.   You know, he's reasonable.   He's   fairly intelligent. He basically said to me, like, I'm not really sure what to do. Like, the entire fucking faculty is woke to shit, and I'm just a guy right now.   And,   I just don't think it's going very well.  

[00:06:07] Unknown:

Wow. What?  

[00:06:09] Unknown:

That's crazy. I thought I thought that shit, I thought DEI, like, the woke shit about that ended this year. It should have. It should have been reentrenched.  

[00:06:17] Unknown:

It's like a delay, you know. I think it's just some of this some of these efforts are still on a delay. You know, it's like when Little Caesar's went out of business but like North Philly, nobody told them.  

[00:06:28] Unknown:

Right.   Or Norristown.  

[00:06:31] Unknown:

You know, it's like they're they're just they're still operating.  

[00:06:35] Unknown:

Just get it hot and ready. I can get it hot and ready in five minutes, dude.  

[00:06:39] Unknown:

Yeah. Or like the macro lag effect, you know. Everything's everything's gonna lag. So we blamed Dan we sorry. We blamed Grafton for killing a high ash rate just because we had nobody else to blame. He was on the show and we're like, you know, Jason and I were like little fanboys when we heard that episode. We're like, oh my god. Did you guys do you hear,   them talking about Panic and Disco and all Yeah. And I was like, oh my god. This is  

[00:07:02] Unknown:

incredible. It was our second second or third episode, and I came I came in hot. And I was like, oh, man. Do do you know who Grafton is? He was just on high hash rate. He was talking about Disco and Flash Trip Panic. We gotta get him on it. But it's important to note. It's important to note. I'm gonna note it here. I've never done this before. It's important to note that high hash rate  

[00:07:23] Unknown:

was,   first podcast I ever went on.   And when I went on it,   I talked about   fucking Golgi apparatus   and Bitcoin.   And,   that was really the origin of all of this. This this this podcast that that's why I'm so glad to have you on this one.   You know, we had,   we had Mike on rock paper bitcoin but like because everybody knows that Mike went through   he went through some weird shit with the pole shift and like you know   I think he's still, like, coming out of it. And so that was kind of fun to have him on and, you know, and all that. But this is the show I wanted to be on.  

[00:08:03] Unknown:

Hell, yeah. I mean, thanks for having me on. I,   it's easy. I think it's been about a year now since the last high hash rate   yeah. That we're talking about here. And   I've had a lot of time to think about it, and it's it's it's sad. Like, I miss it for sure. But it also ended,   and I don't know if this is coincidence, probably coincidence,   right before, like, AI just really started to take off and, like, really become   a focal point in everybody. Everybody's using it. It's affecting content. It's affecting   new cycles. It's good enough that it's it's tricking people, etcetera.  

And it's also like, you know, replacing original ideas. People are just   well, it's like AI slop. It's posted everywhere.   And   looking back on high ash rate when it started,   we   intentionally   we had, like, some, you know, silly slogans where it's, like,   high level discussions beyond   the, you know, the price of of Bitcoin. Because it was like everybody was just it was like, NGU, bull market, price this, blah blah blah. Let's go into this price.   And it was like, okay. But there's so much more interesting things to talk about   than just rehashing   over everything.  

But we also like, we named it High Ash Ray specifically as a joke. It was funny, and we wanted to get stoned. And it was definitely I I was definitely inspired by I listened to a lot of Joe Rogan, like, in the early days.   And   this was still in, like, the   the   the mass psychosis   or, like, the cultural trance had everybody,   everything was still, like, the PC and cancel culture and everything. But it was also that way in Bitcoin. Like, if you said something   that was technically incorrect or   violated some principle because you weren't, you know, you didn't understand the background of all economic theory, people would just rush and, like,   attack.  

And, you know, if you talk too much about certain   certain things, it was like a scammer. But   we it was like, we're gonna get stoned.   We're calling it high hash rate, and we're gonna just talk about new things, not   that's just not rehash and all this bullshit. And if we get something wrong   or you feel scammed, you're a fucking idiot because, like, if you got this far, you still, like, felt like you made a major decision, financial decision, whatever in your life for your savings based on what we talked about, you deserved   whatever you got. Like, if it was a bad outcome.  

But we're like like, listen. Like, don't come here with your,   you know,   purity tests, that type of thing.   It's just gonna be we're gonna talk about something new even if it sounds stupid or crazy.   We're gonna we're gonna talk about it because I I know other people are thinking about these things, and nobody's   nobody's having the conversation.  

[00:10:54] Unknown:

Yeah. It was amazing, dude. And I I have to say, I think that   if, like, it stands in history that the,   probably the first pavings of the intellectual Silk Road were   done by high hash rate. And if you look at the guests that went on that show, it's all, you know, all of us. Right?   We were all we all went through that show.  

[00:11:20] Unknown:

Well, that's yeah. It's and I just   you don't realize it at the time. I I   we did meet you through the show, Business Cat, and so many other people who now have gone on   to they got I mean,   like, what five podcasts already? So that's five that just popped up. So many people found my  

[00:11:40] Unknown:

show. So many people. It's like boomers the boomers of the world and like, you know, guys like Sligo and the guys that just came into the fold that just we all got   we all just got on the journey together.  

[00:11:50] Unknown:

High Hash Rate made me friends   from everywhere. I mean, all over, like, Europe, South America,   New Zealand, Australia, India.   I mean, we even that little RSS map, you would check, like, it would show your heat map of listeners. Yeah. We even may we even penetrated the Red Wall Of China. We were in Mainland China. No shit. That's great. Yeah.  

[00:12:14] Unknown:

Yeah. And I just went back and listened I went back and listened to a couple because I I actually preferred   your your high Hashrate episodes that didn't have guests, because it was just just you and Mike.   And,   I went through the last two that you did like that, because it was really, like,   February   they were released. I don't know when they were recorded, but   those those were gold to me, and they actually remind me a little bit about of,   Rock Paper Bitcoin in the sense that you guys just kinda talk about whatever is top of mind. It's not   Bitcoin specific per se. It's just two guys that share this common interest. And, yeah, you touch on things and things, but, like,   hearing Mike talk about, like and this is what kinda resonated with me was,   like like watching Comedy Central   and not realizing that a lot of that content   was, was scripted or, you know, I think I think you pointed out to him that, it was CIA, you know, like, almost like ops,   the Jon Stewart perspective, Stephen Colbert,   that whole   scene.  

And that never really occurred to me, but I definitely   I resonated with with Mike and the fact that it kinda led me down the wrong path for a couple of years till I found Bitcoin in the community and so on and so forth. It's my whole life, dude. It's my whole fucking life.  

[00:13:36] Unknown:

Right. It's,   I think we talked about   multiple times in the show, and it's it I think you started with it's like Bitcoin versus Fiat. Versus Fiat. Once you get it like the once you start to see in the binary there, once it kinda all just bifurcates and you're like, boom, boom, you can identify it. Well, like, once you see it once, like, you see it in all things. And so you start to just keep noticing, like, alright. What's the what are the main two   pulling arguments here? What are the two points of view? And you just narrow it down to every boom, boom, boom, boom. And then you start to see it in the media. You start to see it in your life.   And you just start   it usually it's like you develop a a tool   for noticing. You just get really good at noticing things. You can, like, separate, like, what are the incentives here? And once I strip those out, I can color it in and be like, alright. Boom. Boom. These are the choices here. Exactly.  



[00:14:26] Unknown:

Did you know I actually found the show to begin with? Was the guy that organized my local meetup   in Philly was on your show   early.   He went by the name FOMO Elmer.  

[00:14:39] Unknown:

Yeah. I remember him. Yeah. I think he came on and talked about, like, he had  

[00:14:44] Unknown:

the the game, the board game. He had a game. Called game theory. He tapped out he tapped out, like, two or three years ago, and it's like we haven't   seen or heard from him since.  

[00:14:55] Unknown:

So So I just That that happens to people, man. Yep. I mean, so you guys talk about on the show, it's about fish. Right? And I   Yep. I see   the   what what did you talk about on high ash? You just talked about, like, there it's   to to boil it down to   the common term or like the rabbit holes. Like everybody goes that there's all these different things that could take you down rabbit holes, martial arts,   podcast, big like that stuff. And fish is like one of them or do you know you can even broaden it out to like the jam band scene.   And,   you got people   when you first get into the jam bands, like, you hit in the festivals and you see you see people at different shows, different festivals year to year. And some of those guys go hard, and they are just   absolutely   dumping the dopamine, going crazy, and then they crash out or, you know, presumably.  

Right? You just never see them again. You never see them in another show. You never hear from them again. It's the same with Bitcoin, dude. People just they they mainline the orange pill so hard.  

[00:15:53] Unknown:

And then I think a lot of our friends think thought you were one of these people.   Think so. Oh, because of because of the podcast. Just because you've been you haven't been back on you haven't been seen really on one of these podcasts in a while. So that's I feel, you know, I'm guessing people are like Yeah. No. I will. I was wondering. Right? Do people wonder, like, where the fuck Dan's at? You know?  

[00:16:14] Unknown:

I guess so. I guess that's probably true. I I didn't I know you're just busy. You're fucking busy in space.   I didn't think about my fans, dude. That's fucking  

[00:16:24] Unknown:

maybe that's why. Yeah. They don't realize that it's all Mike's fault.  

[00:16:29] Unknown:

It's not really. It's not Mike's fault. It's  

[00:16:32] Unknown:

I'm just kidding.  

[00:16:34] Unknown:

No. I know. I know you are. But it's also like that's Mike doesn't listen to some peep some people blame me. Some people, I guess, blame Mike, and I think I've probably blamed Mike publicly.   Like, just You did. Again, not not, not even thinking about it, but it's we just   had totally different,   why did we start the podcast, I think, or just, like, different parts of life, different stages in life.   And I think in hindsight,   Mike was   he was   he wanted to be   a commercial success. He wanted to make money. He wanted to be a successful podcaster like many people do. And I was not I found the value in the podcast,   as like this   social capital, cultural equity, something like there was I was building equity   in my own personal   perspective, I guess. And I was really,   it   I guess I could boil it up to, like, it got me into   I podcasted to get into the big group chats.  

And Mike was podcasting for the commercial,   success, and he moved on and now he's at simply, which he is a commercial success. And he does a really good job at it. But arguably more successful than all of us combined.   Exactly.  

[00:17:52] Unknown:

And he does good work.   Like, I he's doing the best work of of his   of me knowing him. He's doing, like, the best work right now.  

[00:18:01] Unknown:

And I yeah. And I think,   I I probably wasn't the right   co host for what he is so good at because I'm a little, I mean, part of high hatchery. The whole thing was,   we I used to call it my digital, like, teardrop tattoo   because it's like a it was like a face a digital face tattoo because being the high hatchery co host, the stone guy who's just talking about this, I can't go back to normal life.   And we kind of purposely made it a wacky show so it wouldn't kind of get,   the,   you know, encircled by   the wrong incentive sponsors, etcetera.   And that's exactly what Mike needed. He wanted sponsors. He wanted money. And Yes. I was I was repelling them with my with my ideas. Mike lives in an expensive zip code.  

Yes. Exactly.  

[00:18:52] Unknown:

You know? And it's it's not like Mike has, like, dollar signs in his eyes. He just is at a stage of life where he needs to make money.  

[00:18:59] Unknown:

Right. He's his, like, his cultural   position has it's like, if you're at the sphere of a black hole and, like, time slows down. Like, time   our time preferences are different. He's in a much faster time preference zone  

[00:19:12] Unknown:

than I am. I have to tell you though, man. The one thing I miss   is, like, my favorite thing in the world of being on high Hashrate   was just   making Mike fucking crack up.   Oh, yeah. Just be get get I would just doing anything to crack his ass up was like   literally one of my favorite pastimes   of all time. And I used to worry, like, what you thought of me, which is I didn't know you that well. You know? I used to be like, I wonder, you know,   Dan just doesn't like all this. I bet because I was pushing pretty hard to get Mike to fucking break.   And,   I loved it. I just I really miss it. I miss it so much.  



[00:19:53] Unknown:

Well, Mike,   if anybody if   if you've ever listened to the Comtown podcast with, like, Nick Mullen, Adam Friedland,   and Stavros Halkius. Yeah. It's Mike's laugh is not the same as Stavie's, but it is a   it was similar to me if Mike was giggling. You know, he just, like, giggle about something that would totally throw me off. Like, it wouldn't be something I was setting up for. It would be an offhand remark that I said.   And,   and then that would, like, just like, alright. I'm just gonna riff. I'm gonna keep riffing on this. And it was always like golden moments. Right? And it was it was great feedback   whenever Mike would start to to  

[00:20:31] Unknown:

laugh. It's like I didn't even know I was being funny, but Mike started laughing. Right. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah. Alright. We're on something here. It's just like being a little child. Right? You're like a baby. You have no idea what you're doing. And then all the adults are laughing. You're like, I'm gonna chase this high for the rest of my life. Yeah. That's right. And adults are laughing and you're like, I'm gonna chase this high for the rest of my life. Yeah. That's right.   Yeah.   Let me get even dirtier here, you know. Yeah. And that's like I I you know, on high hash rate was the were the times you know that feeling, you know this feeling Dan because you were a stand up.   Right? This feeling when like  

[00:21:01] Unknown:

you go I did I did I did open mics a few   dozen times.  

[00:21:07] Unknown:

That's that's a lot.   That's a lot for That's a lot. That's compared to civilians. You understand   like  

[00:21:15] Unknown:

I didn't want you to think that I was like working on my Netflix special.  

[00:21:18] Unknown:

I don't think anybody thinks that. Or doing a funny bone. Okay. I don't think anybody thinks that, right?   Like, nobody thinks that about me either. I was I did open mics for, like, three years. Three three ish years.   But, like,   you get to you bring yourself to the point of, like,   you you have a you know you have   to yourself a funny thing to say,   but you go right to the point of, like, right before you deliver it.   You really are just like, should I really fucking do this? There's no going back. Once I deliver this, there's no going back. And you get right up to that point and then you just fucking do it.   And it feels so good. Like, it just feels so fucking good. And you don't even care if anyone laughs at it.  



[00:22:05] Unknown:

That is I mean, that's, like, the entire history of high hash rate was   after a show, I would I would text Mike and be like, dude, I was clowning you so hard in this episode. Like, are you alright? Like, is that, like you know, I'm just like, it's for the content. Right? And I Yeah. And he he he was always like, oh, 100%, dude. 100%. Love it. Like, I'm trying to push that. And but at the same time,   you know, I'd I've always had this, like, every job I've had,   I've been called into HR. And it's like, dude, you are bullying   all your coworkers or you bully this and and, like, I thought same shit, dude. I thought I was making friends. I thought I was bonding with this person. Totally. They turned me into HR. I'm like, like, but that is, you know, my bond. I'm I'm gonna be a bully.  



[00:22:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm trying to explain, like, this is how I show people that I care about them and I respect it.  

[00:22:59] Unknown:

Right. This this is me showing   you   and this is a weird way to frame it. It may be a little snobbish, but it's like I'm showing you that you can do better, and I'm just I'm showing you you can do better by, like,   try I don't know. I'm just trying to it's like a football coach type thing. Come on.  

[00:23:16] Unknown:

Well, so I think as it got to the end   I think that the banter   turned more into like you just   were   it occurred like you were being kind of hard on Mike and   maybe you guys weren't having as much fun as you did in the beginning.  

[00:23:32] Unknown:

Well, yeah. I so   we had there was a   again, like, upon reflection, it's kinda obvious to me now.   But we both we both worked at Swan, and then he got he was a victim of the, you know, victim. When he just got he got laid off.   Then because he Because Corey got rugged, but, you know, tether tether rug swan.   And then,   you know, he   like anybody, like, you're like, damn, that sucks. It sucks to get laid off. It sucks to be looking for jobs. And he was he found jobs, but,   it was just   it was I think it was a disenchantment.   You start, you become very, very yeah. You become very bullish. You're like the bullish young pleb, and you're in it's like your first bull market. You're crushing and you're making your your net worth's going up. You're stacking stats. And then when you get a job at a place like Swan, if that's something you care about. Right? It's like, dude, I'm in the industry.  

And things are going well, and then it ends. Right? Or then the disenchantment comes, everybody just stops having fun.   And then at Swan, it's like I got disenchanted hardcore   and kinda I was like, I guess you could we just   I had lost my passion or,   you know, having fun going to work every day. So it was just, like, over. Had to move on. We had a lot of friends that we had a lot of friends that got got in that event.   Yeah. And I I so I I basically made it one   one year x like, one year later. Yep.   But I but I went through the disenchantment myself and stopped having as much fun.   You know, it's just empathy. It's like, oh, I get it now. I just had it at a different time.  

I lasted a little bit longer   in the first my first, you know, couple cycles before I was like, alright, dude. It's not all   it's not all daisies or whatever.   It's   Bitcoin didn't fix everything in four years, five years, six years. Gotta keep going. Keep on the slog.  

[00:25:35] Unknown:

Dude, I used to worry so much when I was criticizing Swann. I worry about what you thought. I was like, oh my god. I hope I don't upset Dan.  

[00:25:43] Unknown:

Well, no. You never upset me. But, like, that is part of the situation where it's like when you it's like you see that every day. It's like I don't I never blamed or I never   I don't think you ever said anything like unfair.  

[00:25:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Like And I didn't know Mike worked there. I didn't know Mike worked there until he got until he got fired or laid off. I didn't even know like, I didn't even know Mike was part of that.  

[00:26:04] Unknown:

Eddie is crazy because he did so much. He was such a pivotal part   of their content and create   the stuff that they made, their branding, everything video especially. Yep. I got it. And, and they didn't, like, they didn't, you know, they they didn't really   they didn't really platform him and and give him the chance to   be his best, and it was it ultimately cost them, I think.  

[00:26:28] Unknown:

Yeah. I think so. And I think Mike, the best is yet to come.   You know, you guys know I love Mike and I feel like we're all still   Dude, his empathy stuff's great. We're all still in the same open mic. Simply bicking. Yeah. Right? We're all just we're all in the same open mic scene, and we're just waiting for   a McCusker  

[00:26:46] Unknown:

to pull us pull us up or, you know, I don't know if Shane is coming, but maybe or If you think of, like, SimplyBicking is, like, SNL from the sense it's, like, they bring on these different content creators to make the cast and he's the best he's the best thing to Simply Bitcoin Absolutely. I ever that they've ever had.  

[00:27:04] Unknown:

Absolutely, dude. I and yeah. You guys should go check out Ocean's   o s h I n s, his ocean series.   Anyway,   you know, so   Dan, a curious question for you because,   last week   I made this decision   to, play music in the background for the entire episode.   So I think I'm I'm I'll and I I think I like that decision and I because I feel like it's just us hanging out listening to music,   listening to music.   So,   you'll have to get us a playlist   and we'll have it playing for the Oh,  

[00:27:41] Unknown:

that's that's interesting.   I I was just thinking about it. It's like you can go two ways with that.   It's either   it's just a,   like, a vibe thing, like, a mood for the background for the show? Or are you trying to, like, line up the songs with, like, the parts of the conversation?  

[00:28:02] Unknown:

And that sounds like it would be too stressful. The takeaway to No. I don't want it to be it's more just a bunch of just like the way I think about it is before the internet,   right,   before any of this, it was just me and my friends smoking weed in the car listening to music   and having the same conversations every fucking night.   So, like, I feel like I I felt like what I did last week recreated this vibe of just us sitting around listening to music. It's in the background. Now it just so happens that Phish is the,   like, mathematically, it's the worst background music in the history of the world.  

Right. It's terrible background music. It's not meant it's meant to be like actively listened to.  

[00:28:46] Unknown:

So maybe That's a good point. So don't don't yeah. It's that that matters. But it's also so you were asking me before when you invited me to come on the show and you asked me what I thought   is just   way too broad of a question, which is like like who are your favorite what's your who are your favorite bands? What music do you listen to? Well, I just want you to talk about. Really I know. I know. No. I know that. I know that. But,   I'm like, dude, are you talking when I'm, like, in   road trip mode, are you talking when I'm, like, wanting to go see a show? Are you talking about, like, gut? That's the first baby making. Feeling depressive?   Baby making. Okay.  



[00:29:23] Unknown:

It's a graphic reference.  

[00:29:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Right.   But yeah. So it's   that answer is totally   depends on the context, but putting it into, like, a playlist   for what plays in the background,   that's,  

[00:29:41] Unknown:

I understand my assignment. Let's put it that way. Yeah. I think it's to to make it easy though, I then asked what shows have you been to? And, man, you came up with quite a cornucopia   of shows you've been to.  

[00:29:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I   when I   was in my early twenties, I got just I went to Bonnaroo for the first time.   And   it's like, you know What year?   It was 2006.   Okay. Okay. Sounds like the fourth. Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. No. I don't know why I said 2000. 2006 was like one of my favorite Bonnaroo,   YouTube playlist. The year I went is 2010.  

[00:30:18] Unknown:

Okay. 2010. And it was And it was Trey and Bruce Springsteen got together at Bonnarum. I'm pretty sure.  

[00:30:25] Unknown:

No. The,   the headliners   kinda   I don't know. They weren't my favorite. It was Kings of Leon, Jay z, and  

[00:30:33] Unknown:

let me double check. Jay z. There was a lot of other different stuff. Fish, by the way. Jay z. Was it at the time at least? That's right. They did the Brooklyn show. But, yeah, the, Bruce the Bruce here, I think, was o nine.  

[00:30:44] Unknown:

Really?   Mhmm.   Alright. I can't what other so, like, Bonnaroo is there's, like, the Bruce year. There's the year that Cardi b snubbed Trey.  

[00:30:54] Unknown:

Not aware of that story. Look, I have  

[00:30:57] Unknown:

Trey tried to get into her locker with her locker room. Tried to get backstage and do something.   Tried to collaborate with her and she basically   snubbed them.  

[00:31:06] Unknown:

Oh, jeez. What an idea. Oh, no. 2010 was Roger Waters.  

[00:31:10] Unknown:

Oh, shit. Shizzy,  

[00:31:12] Unknown:

Dave Matthews, Kings of Leon, Stevie Wonder,   my morning jacket.   Wow. You know, and then the list goes on. That's quite a lot. That was like, I was like, dude, I'm going to   every fast while I can go to. So I went to, like, Wakarusa   summer camp,   hang out down on the beach in Alabama, which was a great one, honestly.   Went out to Red Rocks a bunch of times. My one of my friends from high school, his aunt is blues travelers, like, manager. They're travel, they're, you know   and so we play every year, July 4   at Red Rocks. So we went to a show there. It was backstage   on acid.  

The, like, guitarist or the the bassist was trying to, like, get my girlfriend to go on the bus with him. I'm like, Moe, don't don't go on the bus with him.   John Popper was just ripping a line of blow and a shot of, Southern Comfort   after every song. Song. He just walked to the back   line, take a shot of so SoCo, come back out, just rip the harmonica.  

[00:32:16] Unknown:

Wow. Popper is as close of a friend to   Trey and Fish as it gets.   Mhmm.   And   it's been a really long like, it's been a long road with those guys.   For, I don't know if you know this Jason's but Popper did a Christmas album   where he took Divided Sky   and he turned it into a Christmas song.   Didn't know that. I was like, oh. Yeah. We gotta find this. We gotta find this. Put it in the notes. Put it in the notes. Yeah. It's crazy.  

[00:32:45] Unknown:

I know. So I think the like, the   the show that kind of made me   a bit like, a lifelong   fan and wanting to go to, like, see jam bands like Phish,   Widespread Panic, like, freeze McGee.   You know, freeze. July   2010,   went to Red Rocks, and it was a three day,   string cheese incident. So I saw string cheese, and   that's, like, the time I   I took   we were up and partying in the lot,   and it took a handful of, Sour Patch Kids, and I just threw them in my mouth. I'm like, hell yeah. Because we were just like oh, it was like this party. We were all sharing food, brownies, candy, everything. But these are they were all dose. It was like three or four doses of LSD. So I just tripped so hard   at string cheese,   and I met,   Aaron Ralston, I think is his name. The guy he got his arm stuck in the boulder, and he they made a movie with, James Franco, and he, saw his own arm. And twenty seven hours, that one? Yeah. And I was I was just waiting in line for a porta potty. I didn't recognize him, some guy who was, this big black dude,   his shirt off big old, like, titties, like, hanging out. Just a loud fun guy. He just, like, hits me on the back. He's like, bro, turn around. I turned around, and he's like, this is Aaron Ralston. This is before the movie. He's like, this dude got his arm caught under a boulder in Utah, and he cut it off. And   the first thing I did was reach out to shake his hand.  

Right? Like, that's my   it's like George Bush waved to Stevie Wonder, and, like, I reached out to shake the hand of Aaron Ralston  

[00:34:20] Unknown:

That's right.  

[00:34:21] Unknown:

In line for the porta potty at the Red Rocks.   But yeah. So it was great. You, like, filled Seymour Hoffman in Boogie Nights afterwards? Like, idiot. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No. No. I was I was tripping. I was just like, dude, he he probably gets it.   But in my mind, that cemented there. It was like the   the main bands that people talked about and then I   decided were that I had to go see in any circumstance that I could was Cheese Again,   Widespread Panic,   Fish. And it was like those were the the main ones to go to. And,   so I've done it all. I've seen all of them at least five times, except I've never seen fish. I almost saw them at Dick's,   in in Colorado, but I I couldn't make it.  

The trip fell apart, but I will go. Hope I mean, as long as they're still playing, I'll I'll see him. I've I've seen Trey, just not fish.  

[00:35:12] Unknown:

Where'd you see Trey?  

[00:35:15] Unknown:

Summer camp in Peoria, Illinois. Yep. It was, Trey is Chillicothe.   Is it not Chillicothe, Illinois? Yeah. Dude, it was the muddiest, rainiest. I drove home through, like, five tornado warnings,  

[00:35:26] Unknown:

but it was it was good. I associate those with unfreeze, those summer camps. Mhmm. They too. I'm freezed so many legendary   fucking summer camps.  

[00:35:34] Unknown:

Yeah. They were there for sure.   And then Electric Forest. Yep. Moe was there. Moe, that was one of the headliners.   And then Electric Forest was great   up in Michigan. Oh, yeah. That's happy before it turned into, like, pure,  

[00:35:47] Unknown:

like, EDM. My train fine. It's just Dude, my trainer goes to Electric Forest every year.  

[00:35:54] Unknown:

It's it's not I mean, I guess I'm just old. I'm getting old now. It's like the festivals are just not I kinda came in, I think, towards the end of what I consider   the the the good festivals,  

[00:36:07] Unknown:

festivals, the JM festivals, the hippie festivals, not like the electric, the EDM. Now it's like nihilist nihilistic kids just looking for a place to get fucked up. Then Yep. Still feel, like, kind of safe doing their thing.  

[00:36:20] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[00:36:22] Unknown:

Using their fentanyl tested.  

[00:36:26] Unknown:

Right, dude. Yeah.   You have, like, a kit to check all your dry I mean, you have to. I mean You do. You have to. You absolutely have to. But when I said to you, I was in hangout,   you know, Gene Ween   was just   it was I think he basically   relapsed back into, like, heroin addiction or whatever, but he was so fucked up. And he was there's, like, a yacht going out in in the Gulf Of Mexico, and he was, like, stumbling around. And He's, like, pointing at the guys, like, get out of here. You were getting a free show.   Oh,  

[00:36:54] Unknown:

man. They're so ornery, the Ween guys. There was, there was a summer camp where Ween and Umfries   got together   as a band called God Boner   and did an entire set together.  

[00:37:09] Unknown:

That's out there somewhere. It's a great band name. Unless it's good as a compilation,   but   pretty good.  

[00:37:16] Unknown:

Ween's definitely gonna be on the playlist for this show.   Nice.  

[00:37:20] Unknown:

Love it. Yeah. We're big we're big Ween fans.   You have to be it. Dude, who doesn't love it, man?  

[00:37:26] Unknown:

And if you're from, like, this area,  

[00:37:28] Unknown:

you know, where they're where they're from,   and you and and you you can't like music, you have to get Well, Ween and Fish are I would say  

[00:37:37] Unknown:

No. I would say that,   in the argument for the most   versatile  

[00:37:44] Unknown:

band, it's gotta be Ween. You're right. We Ween and Fish are like cousins in a certain way where, like, they they come they have the same grandfather, which is Frank Zappa.   You know, that influence is very clear on both those bands. Is Frank Zappa a Gen X or a boomer  

[00:38:02] Unknown:

boomer? Boomer for sure. Absolute boomer.  

[00:38:07] Unknown:

By the way, for whatever it's worth, I this past week I watched Walter Ruski   review Hot Rats   and it was spectacular.   There's this guy Walter Ruski,   Dan, who does he does like, Twitch   streams where he reacts to bands and he I got on he got on I  

[00:38:28] Unknown:

I do I I haven't seen much, but, like, I definitely know who Walter Ruski is. Yeah. He really revived a certain spirit of Phish inside of me where because his enthusiasm  

[00:38:38] Unknown:

was very magnetic and kinda rewoke something up   that that like he rewoke the guy   that I was that wrote the review of 12/3195   that was so glowing. Like he like I just kind of saw it in him seeing Fish for the first time and he's got this,   audience that just is really good and knowledgeable and, you know, you kind of feel like you're with them. It felt it, like, felt to me like being in my old IRC chats   back in the day.   Yeah. He cries a lot but but other than that He just cry a lot. He just but a lot is like once. That is a lot. Oh, maybe that was just the one video I watched then. That's a very that that's a that's a lot for a man in public.  

[00:39:21] Unknown:

What was But, yeah, he has a,   sort of like an innocence, like a beginner's mind innocence kind of Yeah.   Everything's fresh.  

[00:39:32] Unknown:

I was gonna say you brought up the IRC chats, and it made me think that   part of the way that I the reason that I am the way that I am, whatever that means to anybody who knows me. And, like, one of the reasons I got into Bitcoin and the jam everything is   I was on, like, the Internet as soon as I was 10 years old, and I was immediately   I would find interesting rabbit holes or whatever you wanna call it. Esoteric interest called, like, subcultures,   boards where you could troll. I mean, I was I was trolling   Totally. I could see this. Before I was in high school, I was trolling online, dude. I was like, I would my grandma had   a Windows   3.1. Like, it was before Windows 95.  

But there was, like, I can't remember how she was connected to the Internet. It might have been CompuServe or something. But I found some, you know, online chat room, and I was, like, telling everybody I was like a I was like at the time I was 12 years old, maybe, I was trying to tell everybody that I was, like, a rocket scientist who went to Harvard.   And these people were just, like, calling bullshit, and I would just I would just I just would never admit   that they were right. I would just constantly, like like, oh, I'm on scholarship. I'm like, they don't have scholarships. I'm like and I'd come up with some reason  

[00:40:45] Unknown:

how to, like, answer it. It's not called the scholarship technically. There's a loophole.  

[00:40:50] Unknown:

Right.  

[00:40:51] Unknown:

I was I could see it.  

[00:40:54] Unknown:

How did that like, imagine   I just can't imagine growing up in any other time   where you couldn't find   all these weird people, weird subcultures, weird art, weird content, whatever it is, weird thought or perspectives.   So sometimes I   I feel bad for the boomers. They they I try not to judge them too hard. It's like, oh, you like this you like you guys thought the Beatles were the best band. Alright. Well, it's you didn't have any other options. I don't know, dude. We had, like, Led Zeppelin and shit. Like, we I'll say we had, like, really weird and high quality shit. It just wasn't ubiquitous.  

[00:41:30] Unknown:

It was harder to find you had to actually search for connect with it on a day to daily basis. Right? So you know what you just reminded me of? There was one of the   first ever like TV shows on HBO   was called Dream On.   Ever hear of this? And like the show like the opening credits   is like him as a baby being put in front of a TV and then just the him growing up but never moving from the TV. Just him just getting bigger and older but still sitting in front of the TV.   And the whole show was hit like everything he said was through a reference to an old TV show.   And I related to that show so much. I I I related to that so much. Like, I always felt like that was me. Like, I grew up on fucking TV.  

That was me sitting in front of fucking TV just aging   and, like, everything every, like, thing in my head was from that. But then, like, you're more you're more fucking chatroom   chatroom guy. Chatroom troll. Just growing up in fucking chat rooms and that's why I'd like everything you've you've   caught you're just thinking memes.  

[00:42:37] Unknown:

I think in, yeah, chat rooms,   AOL Instant Messenger with all your high school friends. Like, that was that totally I would I would call in to t r l on MTV and try to leave troll, like, messages for, like, there for my requests.   I think I got on once or something. I don't remember if if I really did or I just imagined it. But I loved I I grew up,   glued to the TV during the attitude era of WWE, like, the golden era, Stone Cold Steve Austin,   Mankind.   And then soon social media came to have a troll on that MySpace, Facebook,   everything. Right? I got you remember Ken m like, you know, like trolling in the, Yahoo comment section. It's just it was so fun to get a reaction out of people  

[00:43:21] Unknown:

because You go to the Epoch Times and just troll people in the fucking country.  

[00:43:26] Unknown:

Yeah. ICQ,   a troll in ICQ,   at Angel Fire sites that were dedicated to this stuff.   I I mean, I I think I don't know if I've told this story on a podcast before, but   I would   I created these, like, websites that rank, like, wrestling   characters.   Like, it was like fantasy wrestling, kinda, is the best way I can explain it.   But I had, like, you know, pop up ads pop up ads to, like, these offshore casinos. And I don't know. I made less than a $100   from   the pop up ads on my website, but it was just like I would absolutely spam the shit out of your browser when you showed up to the site.   And but I was a paper boy,  

[00:44:05] Unknown:

and I knew that what I was doing was illegal,  

[00:44:07] Unknown:

but I knew I probably wouldn't get in trouble, but I was also like downloading everything on Napster. I'm like, the feds might be watching me. So   I there's this 97 year old man who was like totally dementia. He lived across the street, but I delivered his newspaper. So I'm, like, I'm gonna have my my my advertising checks mailed to him.   And then I'll just pick him up out of the mailbox when I drop drop off the newspaper, and then I'll get them cashed up, like, the corner store.   So that always worked out. So I was always like an Internet   online mission. And he didn't get deported or anything? Nothing happened to him? No. Nothing ever happened. So, like and I downloaded so much stuff off of Napster and LimeWire,   and,   they're always like they'd put out these   aggressive, intimidating I know some people got busted,   but nothing ever happened to me.  



[00:44:49] Unknown:

Nice.   Yeah. One of my, like, best closest childhood friends and my number one fish show buddy, he worked for Napster all the way up until the the end.   And then he ended up working for,   like, the company they started. It was called Snowcap.   Like, he ended up working for that company   after which was trying to, like, I guess,   put identities on.   They were trying to give identities to musicians. We're trying to do Napster sort of legit, but then it got that got completely blown up by Myspace because nobody cared about that anymore because people were doing you know, artists were able to now put their music out on Myspace. Right. That  

[00:45:29] Unknown:

so, so like you were talking about the TV and the point I think that I was originally trying to connect to was   all of the   interactions that I had   in all these different forums   for trolling, for whatever, meeting people.   It was all tied together. Like, you could I could always   relate to people because of TV. Because I also grew up, like, in front of the TV. So, like and we talked to,   we had a guest on high ash rate in 2023,   from Russia, from Moscow. He lived in Moscow. And one of the things we connected on, it was like the people in Russia,   Africa, everywhere.  

We can all connect online,   and have reference cultural reference points because we all watch the same movies. We all watch the same   CIA Hollywood movies. We all watch the same, you know, whatever   TV shows. And that was like a thing that synced everybody,   to a conversation   narrative, a cultural,   whatever   memory.   And still today, it's like we can all   connect on   and relate to the fact that we're being manipulated by the deep state, even, like, people on the other side of the world, maybe them more. Right? We all know we've all had been spread the same propaganda, and we're all turning it into memes.   You can hit a boomer, a gen x person, a millennial,   whatever generation.  

It's it matters which meme you choose, which   is it an eighties vibe? Is it a Frank Zappa? Is it a, or are you gonna mock something?  

[00:47:01] Unknown:

It's it's fun. Zappa was a total boomer, by the way. I mean, he was like a boomer. I mean, in fact,   you know, it was horrible what happened because because when he died, his whole family fought   over   the estate,   and his wife took all of his music offline,   basically. And it's a sue pretty much sued anyone who,   you know, sued anybody who was putting his music out, and it got really ugly, like, super   Zappa has, at least one   offspring that's, like, world class guitar player.   Dweezil   Dweezil. Is a top, top, top guitar player.   And it's just it's a shame that nobody really has access to Zappa's music unless they went out and bought it from the right person.  

Right. Because because when he was alive, it was totally being shared.  

[00:47:54] Unknown:

You know what, though?   It maybe the worst thing that happened to   I think it's the most obvious in music, but in culture in general,   is just the access to it   now. Like,   you used to   have   to listen to the radio and hope they played a song you wanted to hear and and hope you didn't have to go into the store or do something at work. And then they played your song and you didn't even hear it. Or you turn on the TV and hope it was on TRL or VH one.   Or you could buy a CD or cassette, whatever.   It's like sometimes you have to buy a CD single or an album that sucked for two songs. And now   you can list you can watch any movie you want. You can listen to any song you want. You can see any old TV show, any, like,   niche   Nothing special. You can or you can use AI to generate   your own. And it's   that is the that is the probably the reason that we live in a world of, like, AI slop and   club slop and just slop. It's all slop because  

[00:48:58] Unknown:

it's all slops together. It's too well, it's too ubiquitous. And we Jason and I have talked about this about Phish shows that they were that we used to   the special ones were the ones where the tapes   would really get out.   So, like, there were some special shows where people were really motivated to get maybe even the band wanted some certain tapes to get out because they knew certain shows were special.   I mean, now because every single show is available   online twenty four seven,   you just don't really have those   special I couldn't even name you a special show in the last five years and they've been great. Like, there have been some really, really, really   excellent shows. I mean, I guess Jason, right, we'd have to go back to, like,   SPAC and, like, you know, the Alpine. There's a couple of ones that really stand out, but it's it's just it's not like it was in the 90s when you had to get tapes   and you really would only get this really special shows would be the ones of super high quality that would get that really get out. Yeah. And now, like, and now we see that,  

[00:50:01] Unknown:

even when we just did the, you know, the game henge episode last   last time, fundamentals,   that was immediately put online the next   day in its entirety for free.   Like, it it even used to be Yeah. You would have to pay for something. There was some friction to get,   and we saw that this summer with the SPAC the SPAC shows. They just released the whole second sets of shows for free, which is awesome.   But that's still, like, the low time preference,   like, or or sorry, high high time preference. I would I I was getting that backwards.   But,   we used to wait for stuff, I think is what you guys are pointing to. There used to be some friction.  

Like, you used to just have to wait for, like, a couple of Remember  

[00:50:42] Unknown:

I talked about the Halloween show with the where they did the white album? And everybody was so excited about it. It's, like, the most energy I've ever seen, but yet most of us had to wait, like, six or seven months to even get  

[00:50:52] Unknown:

those shows. Correct.  

[00:50:54] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:50:55] Unknown:

And there's something to what you guys are saying. It's all kinda tied into that same   delayed gratification   or   just,   it put some put some effort into it. From that respect, Dan. Right? It's,  

[00:51:09] Unknown:

I don't feel bad for boomers or gen xers because we grew up in a time well, you know, like I said, we had access to really great things. It just wasn't ubiquitous. And then actually because of the work we did to get   it, it was pretty special. I would I wouldn't trade   like, being, like, eight or nine years old and experiencing Nintendo   was, like,   I wouldn't trade that for anything.  

[00:51:34] Unknown:

I remember   the I can't remember the the framing of my thought when   I first got my PlayStation.   And I put in like NHL '98,   I think was the game, and it was   like, you know, clips from   the previous NHL season, like big checks, big goals, slap shots, and stuff. And I was like, they can put   real,   you know, video in video games now. PlayStation was  

[00:52:02] Unknown:

crazy.   Right. Like we madden   madden like, the graphics I remember such a jump   on PlayStation.   But, like, Nintendo was incredible.   And the  

[00:52:14] Unknown:

the thing that was so special about video games was   the graphics, like, the cutscenes,   the,   whatever they call them. Like, it's like this it's not that the playable scenes, but they always look The cutscene looks so good. Right? And it the the actual gameplay,   especially in early days, was very disappointing,   like, in comparison.   But   everything kind of caught up, and it was like video games always showed you, like, this is what's coming,   and this is what you can play with right now. But it, like, slowly evolved, and it was,   looking back on that, it's like, wow. That was actually pretty   a pretty crazy or pretty great marketing   decision. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but The best gameplay ever was NHL 94.  



[00:52:59] Unknown:

And,   we're having Len and Joey on this weekend   on, rock paper bitcoin. I want this week Are you serious? But That's this weekend. Yeah. And Len is like Oh, I can't believe it.   Len is Len reinvigorated   my interest in NHL '94.   He runs he, like, runs the NHL 94 podcast,   and,   like, he's had, like,   he's had major   people who've had an impact on that game on the podcast. Like it's a pretty big deal.   I don't know if I've ever talked about the connection between NHL '94   and Fish potentially on the show but I might have done it on his on the on the cvp   But   when that show was when that game was being developed, I mean, this is like one of I mean, still arguably maybe the greatest game ever.  

This guy Mark Lesser who created the game   was up in Maine and he basically was being inspired by the University of Maine hockey team but this was like the 1993   and I just   suggest that there was also   He was up in Vermont   making this game   in in the fall to the 1993,   and I would just argue that there was a lot of energy.   There was fish energy up there too. This is like we're we're getting into the peak. We are getting to the absolute peak   of Phish's musicianship   and catalog   at that moment. Like, we've talked about this a lot in the show. Like, '93 was probably the peak of their ability to play their their   songbook, and then   they broke through. '94 was the year they played MSG for the first time,   and then it was just bonkers from there.  



[00:54:44] Unknown:

Right. And then Jerry, it doesn't fall a year.  

[00:54:47] Unknown:

But, any but also, like, hockey Trey was a hockey player.   He's had   famous   NHL players who have come to shows.   One of them might have been Mary Lemieux at the show I was at.   They announced that he was there, but nobody actually confirmed that he was there.   John LeClaire.  

[00:55:06] Unknown:

John LeClaire for sure.  

[00:55:08] Unknown:

Yeah.   And by the way, there's two John LeClairs associated with Phish. One is his guitar. He was a guitar tech that we   know in Lancaster.  

[00:55:17] Unknown:

Is it true that John McClaire, the hockey player's, that's Dylan McClaire's dad?  

[00:55:23] Unknown:

I actually tried to look this up and the reason I tried to look this up because I I always said Dylan McClaire was like the second   smartest guy to drop out of University of Vermont.   Trey Trey well, Trey was expelled.  

[00:55:36] Unknown:

Right.  

[00:55:37] Unknown:

So Trey was expelled from the University of Vermont for, sending a cadaver hand   to a pen pal. Dude, we had pen pals in the fucking eighties, in the seventies and eighties.   And,   like, Trey, this pen that was having a pen pal was a common thing. That was like your version of being in fucking chat rooms.  

[00:55:59] Unknown:

No. I had a pen pal in elementary school,   and he was   he lived in   East Germany because my,   my sec my teacher   came from East Germ or yeah. She came from West Germany, but she had family in East Germany. So she gave us   pen pals so we could,   I don't know, like, tell them   to, you know, propagandize them. Hang in. She would tell us to say yeah. Right.  

[00:56:24] Unknown:

So, like, if you were lucky, you would get into this trolling relationship with your pen pal.  

[00:56:29] Unknown:

And I Oh, I would yeah. I would tell I would lie to my pen pal all the time. I was like like, America is so great. Like, I I would like to say that I lived in a much bigger house. Yeah. Like, this dude is like like just I was just absolutely   flexing on this poor little communist like third grader.  

[00:56:43] Unknown:

Well, so Trey was expelled from UVM because   one his his way of outdoing his pen pal that year was he sent a hand from the cadaver lab,   and he got caught. Mhmm. That was Well played.   Yeah.   So for a while, I thought Dylan Leclerc was related to John Leclerc. I really did think that for a while. And I thought because I always think everything is connected   somehow to this world,   but I don't believe that to be the case. What so how does,  

[00:57:15] Unknown:

and that maybe this isn't the right question or the right way to ask it, but what what is Fish's   role   in the fourth turning?   Like, how do they connect? Like, how do you   map   the world   on the other side of whatever's comes? Because I like we go back one last time to the TV thing. Like, everybody alive right now, especially the people who are in, like, like, the prime of their life or, like, their   best earning years   Mhmm. All raised on TV or at least all raised in a culture that was synchronized   and programmed   by the TV set, by movies.  

And now the president is, like, the ultimate TV   like, the leader of the world is, like, the ultimate TV guy. Like, he instinctively   I don't think Donald Trump necessarily thinks all this stuff deliberately or consciously, whatever, but it's he instinctively   does oh, a usually the best thing   for the show,   for the k fave. Right? That's a great question.   And so we get on the we're gonna we're gonna get to the other side. Right? I don't think that we're gonna continue to have   the k fave WWE   Hall of Fame,   presidents. We're gonna go back to I don't think back to normal, but it's gonna be like a revert to the mean of, like, a more statesman  

[00:58:30] Unknown:

type. I think I have the answer. Yeah. I think I have the answers. That back. Just I so I because I so I believe that fish   not only fish, but they just happen to be   one possibly of many entities   that are dropping   clues. There it's not so direct.   It's not so overt.   Right? And maybe this is to bypass the psyop. I don't know. But it's it's again, not so direct, not so overt, but dropping clues   about,   where the signal is.  

[00:59:07] Unknown:

And I think Yeah. So Right? I mean, my experience   I had a very pronounced experience at the sphere.   When Fish did four nights into the sphere, it was tuned to it tuned with tuned in with the having, actually. The having happened over this four night run-in   Vegas.  

[00:59:26] Unknown:

And it was a very weird experience. I don't know if either of you have been at the Sphere,  

[00:59:31] Unknown:

but   when you walk in, it's a long walk if you wanna do it from indoors from, like, the casino. You have to walk through this long corridor, and it kinda is like a labyrinth.   The Venetian. And there's signs as you as you approach that say,   we use   facial recognition.   There's all these warning signs as you're entering the security gate area, which I've never seen before, which is very strange.   But   you add that to the actual experience of being in this good, this kind of virtual reality that you're immersed in for three hours, hours, four hours.   And I was walking out with a friend of mine.  

He's pretty intellectual. I can consider him kind of a sharp a sharp guy.   That I think fish is kinda signaling   that they,   our ability to discern   reality from virtual reality   is converging. It's collapsing on itself.   And I kind of experienced this in Mexico that same year, but   a few months removed,   that,   we're gonna we're gonna be reverting back to a face to face   dynamic   as we as we   roll into this,   you know, end of the fourth turning, whatever you want to call it, this new kind of paradigm.  

[01:00:46] Unknown:

That's a great point. And dude, there's no more ultimate meat space   experience than fish for the last forty years.   Like they've defined what meat space experience   is. At least they've care and they've care you know, it was the dead at a point and fishes really carried   that like you got to be there.  

[01:01:06] Unknown:

Right? And the other thing is that   everything   is so   predictable.   Even if it, like, the   the exact, like, language or whatever is not the same, it's the same vibe, like, the same message. Everything's so predictable online.   Is it's the nothing ever happens meme, right, where it's like everything gets built up and they build all this crazy,   climaxes on is right on the precipice, and nothing ever happens. But   you go to,   like, a fish show.   May if you've been to a 100 shows, it's one thing. Right? But even if you have, they'll still surprise you. You'd never know where the song's going. You never know where the jam's going. You never know what the set list is gonna be. You're looking at, like, clues, like, alright. What were the last five set list? Alright. Well, we might get this song. It's my favorite song. They're due to play it.   And   this type of, like, being able to to be surprised, it's that's how you're gonna know you're in a real experience. Right? It's like this isn't AI slop. Something just  

[01:02:14] Unknown:

it You can get lost. You can imagine trying to get lost in the world.   Right. And,   well one of we're actually hoping very much that the spear shows this year roll into,   roll into the Bitcoin conference. There's really a,   talking to Craig, really trying   like what what are the chances? You know? How much would it suck if it's like a week apart or two weeks apart? You know? But, because   I'm guessing he'll probably he'll probably fly in both times.   Right? But,   we're hoping it rolls right in. It would be pretty incredible. We'll off the go. That'd be awesome.   It's a great point. Yeah. That'd be really great. Like, it's it's a great point that, like,   you know you're in a real experience. The other the thing about meat space too, like, even in the Bitcoin   community, and I've experienced this recently from having gone to a couple of conferences   just re within the last few months,   is like,   Bitcoiners in meat space are actually decent   to each other and agree on a lot of things and then you go back home, you get on Twitter and everyone's acting like a retard  

[01:03:27] Unknown:

again. Yeah. No. I agree. I actually   well,   yes. They do act like retards, and that does get annoying to it at a certain extent.   But I think that the   conferences,   meet up, whatever these big gatherings, Bitcoiners are too they've become too   fake,   civil, and, like, nice. And it's like, I   there's value. There's just more value to,   I   and it needs to happen more where it's not not like conflict or fighting,   but disagreements   in the meat space. Actually being able to argue and have disagreements in the meat space, not performative ones where you're trying to, like, draw a crowd and win, but, like, genuine, honest like like, debates, and that's kind of been   the trend of the past few months that some of the biggest,   events have turned into debates between knots and core or something like that. I think there needs to be more of that. I'm trying to I work for   Bitcoin media, BTC media now. I'm trying to bring that to the conference. I'm trying to   get a little bit more of that.  

Think of, like, the Taproot Wizards and and Udi and Eric versus,   Shinobi, but   maybe   more broad conversations that devolve into, like, less,   childishness.   But Yes. That concept. Right? And some of that childish I'm working on that needs to get out. Myself on this right now.   Because   you go to these conferences and some of these festivals or concerts. Right? And you see a bunch of people in the they're dressed in the part. Right? But it's   a lot of them are psyop, so to speak, or for lack of a better term, or it's like their NPCs that have cloaked   the the the gear and they're among you. And if everybody's nice   and everybody's smiling,   it's very difficult   to tell who's who.  



[01:05:16] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, not everybody is looking for real experience,   but the fact is you can have one.  

[01:05:21] Unknown:

That's true. Exactly. Exactly. But in both those like, a fish show of Bitcoin commerce, you can have a really, really, really awesome experience.  

[01:05:30] Unknown:

But it's not Yeah. Most people at fish shows, it's the the opposite. Like, they're retarded there.   Yes. Right. It's true. They're totally spun out. They're going harder than they've ever gone. This is like a fucking Super Bowl.   It's a Super Bowl of partying for most of these people on this day.  

[01:05:48] Unknown:

And it's relatively more safe to do it at a fish concert than it is for them to do it in Absolutely. Real lives.  

[01:05:54] Unknown:

It's definitely not the place to connect with people and make make lifelong friends in in that moment. And the and the the people the people who  

[01:06:02] Unknown:

dislike   dislike either of these venues. Right?   It's like a it's all bullshit. It's all shit coins, etcetera. It's like, well, if you want to have a real experience,   you have to provide a real experience because real experiences, everybody's got to contribute to that.   And if you just go in and you're like, I got my Bitcoin podcast t shirt on,   free runs. That's not enough. Free runs. Yeah. Right. It's not enough to have a real experience. You're gonna have to actually   stick your neck out a little bit, be vulnerable, or have something interesting to say.  

[01:06:35] Unknown:

Exactly.   Kind of ties in with the whole, like, Nakamoto consensus kind of narrative. Right? Of, like, we can all disagree and still move forward, and   and,   you know, it's okay to disagree.   You don't have to perform all the time.  

[01:06:52] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:06:53] Unknown:

I actually always thought it was kinda good in Bitcoin. I just feel like we've had this this recent   kerfuffle has been such a tribal fly in the ointment   low signal   thing that,   to me, it's a bit of an exception,   at least in terms of what I'm used to. I feel like, in general,   the groups of the group of people that I associate with are pretty good at talking about things   that we disagree with.  

[01:07:20] Unknown:

It's a really good point.  

[01:07:22] Unknown:

But most of the rest of,   you know,   society is   not as good at that, and it's something that's,   you I mean, you can already see it happening. Right? Like, podcasts are getting more like a Gavin Newsom's going out there and trying to be more   talk to people he disagrees with, people are  

[01:07:42] Unknown:

having tough conversations, but they're not good at it. Right? Well, yeah. And that's A lot of people are not good at it. We need a lot of podcasts to lead by example, which need a lot   more leading by example so that people can at least see that yeah this is   how   this is how adults talk.  

[01:08:01] Unknown:

Exactly.  

[01:08:04] Unknown:

They call each other retards because they don't, you know, run the right note.  

[01:08:10] Unknown:

Yeah. Or, you know, just otherwise, an economy it's a great economy of wordsmithing.   Retard's a great word.  

[01:08:19] Unknown:

Yeah. It's like language based Well, that's action. I can't I can't remember who   originally said it, but it's it's been common. It's they had to they had to bring back the word retard because there's no other word to describe   reality right now. You you can't sense it the one word where it's like, how would you describe   politics right now? How would you describe   the state of the criminal justice system? How would you describe the state of the financial system? It's retarded.  

[01:08:49] Unknown:

I got into that a bit when I was   I did a single episode on the   etymology of   well, the great discovery of,   you know, Rod inventing plexiglass.   Like, it was like bringing the word retort back. Like, it just, like, turn the lights on. It's like, oh, I I can now dismiss, like, a lot of shit that's in my headspace now. I can just dismiss it easily with one word and move on.  

[01:09:16] Unknown:

It is. Yeah. That's it's really huge. I I'm trying to think of, like,   slop, AI slop, plebs slop, whatever slop. What   has come before it where you could just   I'm not gonna worry about this today. This is slop. Right?   Like, this is somebody sent me somebody sent me a tweet the other day. They're like, what should I be worried about This JP Morgan stuff? I'm like, it's just it's just bear market slot, man. Just it's fine. Don't even don't don't even click the link. It's stupid.   It's just, oh, they're manipulating the markets. Okay. Sure.  

[01:09:47] Unknown:

So what else are you working on then?  

[01:09:52] Unknown:

I I'm working   I saw I'm a program coordinator at BTC Media, and I also,   been working with Bronta,   which, I mean,   you know about Bronta, but for you listening, it is a payment verification   tool.   And part of the thing that I've been doing there is trying to help Keith and that company kind of tell their story and, like, explain what it is because it's a very simple it's so simple. Such a simple tool that is so easy to   take it for granted or,   just overlook   the value that it brings. It's it's a mirror.   If somebody is trying to address swap you, man in the middle attack,   any of these thing any of these attacks you've heard on podcast, right, where they switch your address out and you end up paying a malicious actor,   Bronta prevents that. It lets you   scan or input the address you see on your screen and check the mirror to see, hey, did the merchant or the platform that I'm intending to pay,   is this their actual invoice? Am I paying them? Yes or no?  

And so it's it's it's growing. It just landed some great deals. We're we're,   hope hoping to announce being natively integrated into,   a mobile wallet, a specific mobile wallet soon so that all transactions will, will do will check that mirror, that Bronson mirror if it's available.   But it's exciting. So I'm do I'm programming   Bitcoin conferences,   and I'm,   working and helping build, helping a great company build their product.  

[01:11:30] Unknown:

I gotta say about about Bronta that,   it's this confluence   of really good people. I couldn't ignore it. Like, so first is our buddy Burns   was like, hey, do you want like, this is a really good company. You should you should meet Sky Keith.   And we did, and it was like, fine. And I was like, okay. This is really interesting. And burn any anything Burns is doing, I'm gonna pay attention to.   Then I come to find out that, Dan's part of it. I was like, shit, okay, this is really interesting. Now Dan and Burns are back on,   are back working together and,   so Dan was having these,   these spaces and it's almost like the these these Twitter spaces were like the closest thing to like what high ASHRAE was. It's like it's almost like it was back. Like Dan's hosting a podcast again   and, and then I found came to find out that another friend of mine, Tristan,   was also   doing his writing for,   Branda. And   Jason, this guy Tristan was a guy I don't know if you remember, but I decided to, like, take a trek up to the Allentown meetup   this one time   and,   I met if you know Steve   who comes to our,   he comes regularly now to the Phoenixville meetup. Yeah. Steve needs a podcast like badly this guy, but Steve is like really his buddy. He was Tristan and I met Tristan at this meetup and immediately connected with him. This guy's super super smart, really with it. You know, it's like one of these guys you talk to for like fucking ten minutes and you're like, yeah dude.  

Right. He's definitely a guy that's in the mix.   And, so then all of us it's like, dude, all of these people are revolving around this company. It's like there's undeniable to me that there's something very special going on here. Yeah.  

[01:13:16] Unknown:

Yeah.   Very cool.   So so let me I mean, I've this is my first exposure to it. Is the tech does it help   sign devices that don't have screens? Because I know that's been a real challenge with people being able to confirm,   receive addresses.  

[01:13:33] Unknown:

That it it can be that can be useful in that. So it was kind of, I don't know, serendipitous.   Like, I   when I first started at Bronta, it was I hadn't I told, like, maybe two or three people that, I had left Swan. Like, I hadn't even changed my LinkedIn.   And Burns hits me up, and he he makes introduction. And and I just got to know Keith for a few weeks to talk on the phone, talk about the product.   So I was learning about it, and I didn't understand it real well at first.   But   the moment it happened was, like, Namecheap. Somebody bought a domain   on name cheap using   BTC pay server. I think it was like they paid a million dollars or something like that in Bitcoin.  

And Peter Todd had retweeted   the, you know, announcement tweet or something for that. And it was like, what if somebody, like,   fished your browser   or they,   you know, were targeting you and they swapped that address on your screen? Like, unless you brought up and I've used the the meme or, like, the picture of the guy from the two thousand election when they're they're,   reviewing the the ballots looking for hanging chads, and he's got his micro or his microscope   or, magnifying glass up to his face and his big big eye. And he's like, you're going through every single character in the address and verifying one to one, one to one. How would you know that? And then even if you did know that the address was what you saw on your screen, how do you know that it wasn't swapped? You're not paying some North Korean hacker.   And we were like, well, that's what Pronta does. That's exactly what that's what that's the problem that's solved right there.  

So we just started running with it. It's just   but you're taking for granted when you see an invoice, a payment invoice on a screen.   Whether you're buying a t shirt, some coffee,   anything. A zap on the private board. Is vulnerable. Your clipboard.  

[01:15:19] Unknown:

That's the thing. Like, there was a moment I had a moment,   2022   and I I   basically just I took   I was buying, I was buying Bitcoin and Swann.   And, it wasn't that much, but I remember sending it to sending it to an address and not being able to find it. And I was like, oh, fuck, dude. This is lost forever. I I must have had something else on my clipboard or some other I was fucking around a lot, Sparrow. I was doing, like, a lot of experimenting.   You could have, like, forgot to copy it or something. And I was like, I was sure that I'd sent this to some fucking   to the nether world somewhere.  

I did eventually recover and found it and recovered it. But, like, these these experiences,   like, they hit, you know, it's a these are gut punches when you think that you have lost,   you know. I mean, this was something like, you you know, at the time $56,000,000   sets wasn't that much money.   It's a lot now. It's a lot now. Right? But, like,   it still is a gut punch.  

[01:16:16] Unknown:

If you buy something for, like, $10 on your lightning wallet,   It's a it's not that big of a risk, man. If you withdraw from an exchange and you just you got a character offer, you   anybody knows to to to target your device.   They could just swap it and you would just beep beep. You make a few clicks and it's gone. You're like, you can never get it back. So the   it'd be great to get Branta   in   as many wallets as possible so you don't even have to think about it because it is a pain in the ass to, like, open another to close your app, go to another device, scan it, if it doesn't have, like, the like, in BTCPay as a click thing.   But even then, right, it's,   until   until you have one of those experiences where you get the butterflies and you think, oh, shit. I just fucked up.  



[01:17:07] Unknown:

Yeah. It's Most people don't use Bitcoin enough to have that experience, but That's true. I certainly do. When I pay my tuition   for my daughter's private school,   that is a very stressful   it's just, you know,   I I do a couple it's stressful for them too. They don't I'm the only one who does this, who pays in Bitcoin. And so I'm like, alright. I'm gonna do a couple of tests   first just to make sure it gets to you. And even after the first test, I still don't trust it, so I sent a second test. You know?  

[01:17:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Right.   Which is fine now when the fees are low. But man, when   the the mempool's   jam   packed, it's like, Jesus.   That's what it's like the people always say one BTC equals one BTC. Well, it's like, well, if you if you have one UTXO and not even then. Right? Like,   to sell to sell that 1 BTC, you might have to pay   point whatever BTC.  

[01:17:59] Unknown:

Right.  

[01:18:00] Unknown:

If you don't know what you're doing, if you don't use it,   efficiently. And that's what, you know, the the whole conversation about ordinals   and all the spam argument.   I haven't been on high hash rate. I haven't been able to discuss it very publicly, but it's and I but I've talked to you,   in DMs going back, what, two, three years. It's like we are starting to get to a point   where the value of block space was, like, totally   taken for granted   for the longest time. And now everybody is their mind is just   glued to thinking about what is the most efficient use of block space, how should it be used, what's the long term implications of what's the implications on the value of it today. And it's like people just weren't thinking about it this advanced   and this,   seriously   before   Taproot. And now it's it's a whole a whole new conversation, and it's I think it's gonna continue to really impact,   the industry going forward.  



[01:19:01] Unknown:

Yeah. Dude, I mean, the public conversation about u UTXO scarcity   is, so Right. Yeah. I have a friend. I think you might know, man. Jason, you know, Jason, you know Jeremy. Right? Jeremy Foley?   Mhmm.   I don't know if you know him, Dan, but, like, Yeah. Yeah. He's a good friend of ours, Burns, and he's he's they they put   they did the Satterize event in Vegas. Good Jew. Yeah.   Yeah. You It's fine. I didn't even know he was Jewish until he told me.   I'm like, yeah. That totally tracks.   Anyway, Jeremy is the guy that really   put it on my, like, put it in my brain space that he's like he's like, you gotta do the math.  

Only so many UTXOs get created every block,   every day,   every year, and it's fucking tiny. It's a tiny number.   Yeah. Exactly. When you think about 8,000,000,000 people, it's a tiny fucking number. Yes. That's what when people say that Bitcoin is for anyone, not everyone,  

[01:19:59] Unknown:

it's it's a very provocative statement. It means a lot of things. But what it ultimately means when people start talking about the scaling conversation,   8,000,000,000 people cannot   Never gonna have a UTXO.   It's impossible   due to the constraints   of the block,   every 10 minutes, only so much  

[01:20:19] Unknown:

It's a 144   blocks a a day that only   can create so many UTXO's. And it's got And winch Bam. None none of this matters. None of this stuff Right. Impacts this discussion.  

[01:20:30] Unknown:

And when people freak, they they hear that. And I think, like, the the most common reaction is to, oh my god. Like, how do we how do we scale Bitcoin for 8,000,000,000 people? Well,   here's the thing.   I'm not I'm not saying that that problem shouldn't be you know, people shouldn't try to solve it or make a solve for it to some extent.   But I think, ultimately, you have to may actually get people you gotta people you gotta get a 100,000,000 people that wanna use it. Right? That's the like, the talk space. The end is so low,   and we're getting so much better and more efficient. I mean, whatever you wanna say about the ETF,   paper   Bitcoin, those treasury companies,   it is a   consolidation   of access to UTXOs. And people are trying to like, oh, we need covenants or we need this, we need ARC. And it's like, okay,   I guess. But there   until there's demand for this, like, scaling technology, I think you're just putting the cart before the horse.  



[01:21:27] Unknown:

It's true. And it might not be our problem to solve. I I couldn't believe   when I was in Prague   so Prague was a corporate total corporate focused event. And,   the guy that brought me there to do the fireside chat, his name is Andre Dragos,   works for Bitwise. He's the head of research in Europe and he did a keynote there and he presented a stat on a chart   that showed that basically ETF   like volume was twice   what   on chain   it was basically double what on chain Bitcoin usage was. And   I basically had a I had this flippant reaction where I was like,   you know, it might like, I wonder if that's even better money   at the moment to the, like, you know, to these people to the people who are using it. Right. Well It's a layer too. It's like a legit it is a legit layer too. Layer too. Yeah. Well, it's like all the when you actually understand  

[01:22:23] Unknown:

the scarcity of e t x o's and, like, the forward scarcity,   these   casual people, people who just had to have a BlackRock ETF and some mutual fund they own or they're just dabbling on their brokerage account.   If   you've got people who are buying on chain and then they don't ever consolidate through UTXOs, it's like their their their wallet is a complete mess. It's super inefficient.   I would rather have these people who aren't   responsible or just don't care enough to actually think about this stuff and   and optimize their own personal   UTXO set for this. It's like I'd it's much better for them to be buying, you know, NACA or Sequans or   Strive just like they're gonna lose they're gonna lose money anyway when they mishandle   their Bitcoin. They lose their keys. It's like   at least they can liquidate some of it even if they're down 98%.  



[01:23:16] Unknown:

Well, so   sorry about that. One of the things I would that I think about a lot, I wrote about it in my book,   is this,   this kind of conversation with proof of reserves   where I do think it's a problem that,   no company can do it. They get to, you know, basically, like, MicroStrategy gets to claim   however much they have and without any   requirement   to prove they can move their keys.   The problem is that   it's not that   it's actually a technical problem and if MicroStrategy   decided it was important for them to   prove if they decided it was important and they didn't want to reuse addresses,   they would gobble up all of these UTXOs   essentially   just in this process of of proving their keys. And so I think that would be problematic as well. Well,  

[01:24:09] Unknown:

I think that's even overthinking it because   the only people   that actually care about proof of reserves or they, like, they go and actually read the proof of reserves,   at the stations or publishes whatever they do.   Or like people like Platter   or people who don't even have So   they don't have the they don't have the Bitcoin on this platform. Right? It's like they're just going to,   well, they're gonna go try and get some content out of it. They're gonna complain about it. They're gonna bitch about it. But none of the actual customers, like, the whole reason they're using Coinbase River or whatever is, like, they don't care.   They just they I wanna come back and sell this when it hits a certain point, and that's  

[01:24:49] Unknown:

I hear it. People should care about, like, people should care that,  

[01:24:53] Unknown:

There's people who care about a lot of things, but, like, I've gotten I part of the point that I've gotten to is, like, I   I'll tell you why you should care. And if you don't listen and you just keep   it's it's not my problem anymore. Like, you're just gonna get even this like like you know I hear I've  

[01:25:11] Unknown:

a lot of,   there's a lot of talk about like hey you know the corporate world doesn't give a shit about this Nazi debate either and it's true. Right. Totally true. Like, you know, like I I think I'm the only person in the corporate world that's even interested in this. I actually think there's a segment   that people should care about which is just in general. Okay. What do you do about core? You're a company. You're at the you're you're gonna be just as angry with core as fucking,   you know, these   as Luke. Right? What do you what what would you do? What we should you should be aware   of Yeah. Well, the healthy governance. You know?  



[01:25:48] Unknown:

I think I try to have a healthy perspective on it, which is when you first kind of   wade into this debate,   it is like, oh, is this a serious this is like a block size war type event. And then you kinda come to the realize, like, it's been very,   I don't know, beneficial, valuable   for me personally, even though it's led to a lot of noise and waste of time,   as a thought experiment and   a questioning assumptions and learning more about the protocol. But, like, I'm super,   hot you know, I'm in this   more than 99.9%   of people. I care about this more than the vast majority of people.  

But that tendency to stress about like, oh, is this is the future of Bitcoin in trouble   because of this, you know, any aspect of this debate? And you're like, oh, no. Like you said, like, nobody cares about this.   So I don't there's no reason for the alarm or the urgency.   So you just go back and think about it hypothetically,   abstractly, theoretically, whatever. And it's you can get a lot of value. You can learn a lot. But   to to get too worked up about it and and punch, you know, your cousin at Thanksgiving because he's a Nazi and you're a core supporter. It's, you know, it's it's silly. I think we had the best conversation about this, Jason and I, last week where we  

[01:27:06] Unknown:

we framed it in fish lore,   story of Gamehenge. And,   you know, it is a story of a futile revolution   that where, you know, just meet the new boss, same as the old boss,   the new tyrants were, you know, the revolutionaries became the new tyrants   and,   you know,   the god of the people just laughs just laughs about   it from, you know, from 10,000 feet above. Yeah. From one eye. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I think was I I I feel like that was really good framing.   And we had a lot of fun with it,   but it's like, you know,   I don't think we accomplished anything, but I think we had just had fun with it, and it's okay that you can we can talk about these things.  

You know, I   our friend, I cast,   Rob Hamilton as the protagonist of the story. So I said he's the Colonel Forbin character of,   Colonel Forbin is the protagonist of the Right. The game hen story, and they were so I cast them both as protagonists.   And,   you know, like, there are people like, I've been trying to have a balanced conversation out in this out in the world,   and like there's people that won't even be in the same room as this guy and it's like   it's insane. It's like, you know, you   this conversate like I I've actually been more disappointed   in my fellow   my fellow man around this just where like you know somebody went from being sort of reasonable in my mind to like holy shit I can't believe how tribal you're being about this thing.  



[01:28:46] Unknown:

Right. And,  

[01:28:48] Unknown:

so I I've you know we just had fun with it and   I think we're I think I almost got it out of my system. I am planning   I am planning a discussion with Rob and I found somebody found somebody reasonable from their side   to have a discussion where I think we're just gonna talk about core and then the problems. And is it do we have a day?   Or do we have a week to fix it? Do we have a year? Do we have Well, year Bitcoiners  

[01:29:15] Unknown:

Bitcoiners   many Bitcoiners have a   a difficult time   communicating   clearly in in the sense of this is such an abstract,   theoretical   all these topics. Right? Like,   block size, like,   even   conveying   the relevance of any   given block. Like,   it's it's just difficult. Right? Like, I'm even having a hard time,   articulating it here. But the con these conversations, these debates about very difficult topics and talking about them, actually saying and talking about it out loud   provides both people,   typically, if it's a productive conversation,   a lot of clarity, and it helps them   visualize and kinda map their, you know, way through a difficult situation, a difficult topic, and it bleeds over. You can do the if you can if you can have a productive conversation   with a nots person who's like some, you know, spewing crazy their crazy perspective and a core person, their their crazy you can have a productive conversation   with them.  

You can have a productive conversation with your family members about politics that if that's driving a wedge in your family or just, you know, people at work. It's people need to have get better at talking about difficult things.   And this is   a great   opportunity,   a low stakes.   There's no consequences to this call score thing. Right? The only failure the conversation.   Right? Right. The only failure   here is if you can't use it to navigate   a conversation that's gonna be much less complex   and and complicated   in the future.  

It's I don't know.  

[01:31:03] Unknown:

So I think the thing that's interesting, at least the interesting dynamic,   it's   a lot of this is sourced by this,   to me, a very,   insidious version of slop that I have a lot of experience with. Like, I have,   you know, I was in Montreal and I had to have this conversation with Larry Lapard   and he is the master of this version, this insidious version of slop that penetrates   this nostivate which is,   I remember saying I could summarize Larry's book in three words.   It's not fair.   And that's really the   that's the driving   force of slop   that is   muddying this Yeah. Conversation because it's people just wanna scream that's not fair.  

That doesn't mean you have a solution   to it. That doesn't mean, you know, it doesn't mean any this doesn't mean that any of these solutions are good.  

[01:32:03] Unknown:

Right. You have to get used to the fact that life's not fair. And the Yeah.   That's the   the same thing that, like, Larry's   you're right. He falls into this trap   is   that   and, again, I think this goes back to being a culture raised on television.   We expect a   even if it's not a fair outcome,   eventually   things   that may we think make sense like kind of fall into place and people get what's coming to them. Justice is served that the the car the karma eventually comes. Right? And so people have this. They think the fiat's ultimately gonna fail. Bitcoin's gonna win. It's it the the the money printer, the thermodynamic   leak or whatever Michael Saylor talks about. It's all gonna it's all gonna come to a head and the most thermodynamically   sound money is going to win.  

Well,   maybe.   But I don't hold your breath. Don't hold your breath and think that   unfair   circumstances   are going to eventually   work out. Right? Like, I think this Epstein thing is a good example.   It's like we think there has to be a culmination.   People have to get their due   for what, you know, their dealings with, Jeffrey Epstein.   Guess what? It's not gonna happen. And the lesson from Epstein is gonna be no matter how obvious   the scam is,   doesn't mean the scammer is ever   the people are ever going to,   you know, maybe maybe their their their reputations and their,   legacy   is spoiled.  

But to have a spoiled legacy, you have to have a legacy, and most people are just not gonna have a legacy.   And most of the like, you know, at least having some UTXOs   on chain,   is will be even if that's it. Right? Like the remnants of of evidence of your existence. So the way you use if you wanna look if you want people to look back and on chain historians look back a thousand years on the blockchain and like, man, whoever owned these u UTXOs was a sloppy   retard.   Or are they gonna say this motherfucker   was consolidated. This dude was an efficient UTXO   mover.  



[01:34:21] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, yeah. You know, it's so funny, dude.   I talk about this all the time about   how much TV I watched and what impact I'm sure it had on me. Like, I am sure that the number one   PSIOP   that is internalized inside of me because of all the TV I watched   is that if you ever   ever   break a rule,   you're going to get caught.   Yeah.   The something is gonna blow up on you. It always will. It'll always catch up with you by the end of the episode.   Right?   And, like, it's almost like how they got everybody a generation or many generations of people to self regulate themselves and never, like, break a   rule. That's the flip side of what you were just saying. Right? Which is, like, we just believe   that   the resolution   is happening.  

We just  

[01:35:15] Unknown:

completely believe these things are getting resolved. And that's why people are they tend to   romanticize like an asteroid or aliens coming and destroying. It's like they think   that   at at some point, even if it's, like, even if they if you really dig into it, they don't think that everybody should die. Like, they don't think everybody deserves to die. That would make them sad. But it's   this collective that we are, this whatever we've built that's bigger than ourselves   deserves   something bigger and badder to come out and stomp it. Whatever   props up the Epstein,   cartels that run the elites that run the world.  

If nothing else, an asteroid can take it out. Yeah. I think the term is And and that can be just. There's a term, I think it's called dyadic completion,  

[01:36:07] Unknown:

where this is like what forms   like what forms the justice system where people just need to know   that justice   gets served   in some way, shape, or  

[01:36:19] Unknown:

form. Called closure.  

[01:36:20] Unknown:

We're so under the thumb of power   and we have a very psychotic idea of what power we actually have.   You know, most people really overestimate what kind of power we have.   Alright. Oh, I can vote or I can, you know, I can just stop buying things from this place and I'm gonna cause them cause justice.   And,   it's just a you can see people just   a lot of our friends, really people I kind of love on the on the internet that   just break down completely in the face of this unfairness.   Right? But that doesn't mean their solutions are good. That's just so that's like really the last and so as somebody who's like 51 years old   and and just looking at people who are like, I remember when I was at the peak of struggling with this, which was   really right at that age of where you guys are. Right? Right? At,   like, 40.  

This is, like, the moment where you sort of just, like,   lose This is  

[01:37:17] Unknown:

this is like the no kings protest.   If that it's already the joke that is trope it's already a trope, which is it's like all these boomers that, people were at Woodstock and then they're at the No Kings protest. And what I was thinking about it is just   that the boomers   are they've gone they have we have blamed a lot of the problems in the world today on the boomers. Some of it is is justified   in at an individual level. Nobody's really responsible for it. But it's like these boomers just   they they they feel like it's unfair   that they're gonna get blamed   for the downfall of, you know, democracy or whatever.  

And so they just wanna be just like, you know, the memories   of the flower people of the flower children, the pictures from Woodstock. Right?   That's ingrained in their mind. They grew up watch they saw that on the news, and now they   want to be   that image in the media on the TV of them holding the sign saying, like, I didn't vote for this. I support democracy. It's like They still think it's 1968.  

[01:38:21] Unknown:

You know? Yeah.   Fucking Kent State or whatever that they're protesting. It is unfair that the,  

[01:38:28] Unknown:

that I'm reaping what I sowed. It's unfair that the consequences of my actions have caught up with me. So it's like we've spent all this time projecting. Everybody else has to suffer the consequences of their evil or their injustice.   But now that it's catching up with me, that's not fair.  

[01:38:44] Unknown:

So back to this question of, like, like, what's fish's role in this whole thing,   there may be it, you know, it may be that those of us like, there is a large portion of Gen   X that is in this community that's been going to shows for thirty plus years.   We're very much part of a very strong it's a very strong culture   that I would say the majority of which   are lost   in this thing we're talking about. But we're getting more you know, like I am seeing way more people as we did like Jason and I did this podcast this year. We're just seeing more and more people come on the bus.   And maybe   there is something   about,   there's just something about this community that has seen a lot of things that doesn't overreact because we've had we've already lost it all.  

We have had, you know, we have had everyone go away. We have had everyone have fucking drug problems. We have had the fucking we have had this thing end and restart a bunch of times.   And maybe there is something to this. Maybe there is something to this culture that is resilient, that can teach that, you know, we absorb enough   of the Bitcoin culture and teach   just tell our story. And I think that is what this podcast is doing. It is like we are trying to tell our story here.   We are sort of a mature older   cohort   that   might be able to, at the margins, make a difference in navigating some of these very difficult issues.  



[01:40:09] Unknown:

Right. And, like, fish is   you talk about it   on a timeline.   Like, they bet the 94   this year, whatever.   Fish was the best during this stretch of runs, these years, these shows.   And Bitcoin's the same way. It is a it's like a tie. Well,   it is a time there's time stamps, but it's a time stamp of culture. It's a time stamp of   capturing, like, alright. This   year or this stretch of blocks was   absolutely crazy.   And then epochs. And Definitely epochs. Epochs. Yeah. And then it's like,   some days it seems like it's over.   Some days it seems like it can never be any better.  

But the thing the timeline just keeps going on,   and,   there's really there's no end. There's no climax. There's no hyperbitcoinization.   Like, it's   the the world is painted orange.  

[01:41:06] Unknown:

There's no heat death of the chain, right, until the rest of the universe. And I don't know if you remember this. I'm sure you don't. But like, but you would have to go back and listen to my episode with you guys.   But you would ask me what,   like, my view of hyperbitcoinization   looks like. And this was in 2023.   I wanna oh, well, it was August 9, and I remember the date because it was the day Jerry died. And I just remember, okay. That's cool. We're gonna go on the show. I'm gonna go on the show the day Jerry died. So 08/09/2023.   And my answer to you   at the time was   I think it the best outcome is that it's basically like what we have with Phish, which is we just get to go to our shows.  

Nobody else really cares.   It's is not a big it is like not really a big deal, but it is a big deal for us.   Right. It is like the biggest deal for us.   That is the best outcome in my opinion.   And maybe that is how it ends because, you know, the sky is never falling for us.   We're about we really are, like, above that now because we've been through it all.   And the Bitcoin space needs that because it's just younger people who haven't, you know, haven't experienced it. And a lot of Yeah. Quit a lot of, like, what goes on on Twitter is very   fucking exaggerated.  



[01:42:23] Unknown:

And   I I this is this for me is probably a great place   to wrap it up, which is in both places at a fish show or a music festival or a Bitcoin conference.   Don't and this is what I learned at Hangout Festival two thousand eleven   when I I watched other people make this mistake.   Don't buy drugs   from the only guy on the beach   wearing tennis shoes. That's a fed.  

[01:43:57] Unknown:

The